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Author Topic: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum  (Read 29001 times)

Offline zenarrow

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HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« on: June 18, 2008, 08:33:47 PM »
I wont say alot here about it, as it's past 4am now.
It came to me tonight, and I was almost in a trance of deep thought putting it together.

I have an image to upload. It is from a few ideas of the Hydrogen Fuel cell with the motor cycle ENV. But unlike theirs this also uses a self charging system, but allows for removal the the CELL UNIT to be maintained, while replaced by another charged up ready to go.

When I have some sleep I will post more information about how it works.
I think it really is something worthy exploring.
Brown's gas I read about in the 80's. He used it as a torch to weld an iron bar and a brick together, and could run his hand through the flame with water condensing on the surface of his hand.
When it ignited in a cylinder, it turned to water. And in fact sucked the pistons. So instead of firing near Top Dead Centre, the pistons needed to fire near Bottom Dead Centre. The exhaust was water, so needed to be drained off (at least in my mind when I read about it) meaning the engine would have to be mounted upside down (but it might come out under the pressure or some other way) indead of inverting the whole design of the engine. Likewise the intake would have to be before the piston when down, so also be near TDC, with clearence for the valves of course.

This came to me when examining ZeroFossilFuel's youtube videos about making your on HHO as an additive to the engine. The rates of 3 litres a minute seemed large to me. So I did some calcs on a spread sheet to get a ball park figure for around 16 miles a gallon gasoline (petrol where I come from). Roughly speaking 15 miles per gallon worked out to be about 0.25 litres a minute. This meant that 2.5 litres of HHO was being wasted if it could do the same job if injected as proper fuel. This means that the current needed, which was some astronomical amount aover 30 amps, could not be less than 1/10th for efficiency. So 3 amps is very doable as a standard car accessory. And makes it all seem so easy to fit together. Of course the cams need to be redone, the EFI and other circuitry and sensors designed and tweaked for best mixtures and quantities for supply and demand. And the low pressure resevoir I have there is just to act like a capaciter does, to filter the lumps of the flow as it were. So if supply fall behind demand, there is at least 10 seconds or so worth to keep it going.

So heres the image...


cheers

ZenArrow

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline z.monkey

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2008, 09:21:22 PM »
Howdy ZenArrow,

Implosion Engine huh?  Excellent Idea!  I can see how these epiphanies are coming out of the woodwork.  The information is being distributed mentally and when we receive our particular mission it is given to us in a dream, an epiphany, or revelation.  I usually get epiphanies when I am doing strenuous labor, like yard work.

A two stoke motor would work good as a implosion engine.  On the intake stroke the HHO is drawn into the cylinder.  Just after the BDC mark the plug fires, the implosion occurs, and the piston is drawn to the cylinder head.  Around TDC a special valve opens momentarily and drains the water out of the inverted cylinder.  Then the intake valve opens again to draw in more HHO.  Genius!

There might be a better way to this.  The reciprocating engine is fairly inefficient, if you could figure out a way to do this with a turbine you could produce more power per pound.  Like if you were to take a gas turbine electric generator and convert it to do HHO implosion.  Like say move the igniters from what is normally the combustion chamber to south of the turbo section.  This way the implosion is happening on the other side of the turbo from where the explosion normally is.  This would suck air through the turbo to drive the compressor.

Good Idea Zen Arrow!

Blessed Be Brother...


Offline Jokker

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2008, 09:28:44 PM »
There is too much told  :o
Too much text to read so i cant get whole idea.

Also u should tell about pressure in intake, coz liquid H2 is 778 times x dense that gas H2.
I cant still get why u need ENV system... But i guess its due engine work cycle and increasing effectivity.

I guess it is useless reply  :P

Offline zenarrow

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2008, 04:52:43 AM »
Also u should tell about pressure in intake, coz liquid H2 is 778 times x dense that gas H2.
I cant still get why u need ENV system... But i guess its due engine work cycle and increasing effectivity.

The ENV refers the the motorcycle, as I saw on Beyond Tomorrow, TV show in Australia, which used to be called Towards 2000, and then Beyond 2000. LOL. it evolves ;)

Here is a link to the cycle. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8228479/.

I am not sure if it is vacuum implosion or not. I loved the idea of it when I saw it a couple of years ago, and thought it would be great around the city where I live. (My old GSX750 is having some age problems and needs something to keep it young again, maybe some hydrogen HHO ;) )

The ENV has a cell which is removable, but it is rather large.

It seems to me my idea diagram above, is similar, but their is to keep things light, and to make money from filling it with hydrogen. Actually my original impression was it was an electric bike, based on electricity from a hydrogen cell input. But I am not sure on that.

My concepts came together with knowledge from the old Grass Roots magazine in Australia in the 80's had an article on Dr Brown, (I think he had German roots) and Brown's gas. In fact most of the idea is his as he was achieveing the implosion engine (from memory). This gas turns back into water when ignited and needs to drain off. (at least that is the idea in my memory). My mind seems to start creating imaginations from inputs, which is probably not uncommon in this environment of people here. At school it gets you beat up. lol.

Brown was saying that most people who work on water and splitting H and O end up with explosions. He said the most stable combination was as HHO, and it could stand some compression storage. But still was the most unstable part with great hazard potential.

I will do a proper addition to my original post of explanation.
Hey these days youtube is also a great way to express ideas. I love the visual aids factor.
ZeroFossilFuel has some great videos of his step by step procedures for DYI HHO and others.

Cheers

ZenArrow


Offline zenarrow

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2008, 05:13:47 AM »

A two stoke motor would work good as a implosion engine.  On the intake stroke the HHO is drawn into the cylinder.  Just after the BDC mark the plug fires, the implosion occurs, and the piston is drawn to the cylinder head.  Around TDC a special valve opens momentarily and drains the water out of the inverted cylinder.  Then the intake valve opens again to draw in more HHO.  Genius!


I think the CAM modifications to a 4 stroke engine would also need to include the cog ratio's of the chain driven cams. With double overhead cams (DOHC) common these days (my old GSX750 might become a prototype yet ;) ) this means it is easy to modify than doing a cam from scratch. As the intake and outlet cams are separate and can be positioned. The cog mod would be to make it into a 2 stroke engine using a standard 4 stroke.

There is a lot of toying with this idea yet. But I do believe the principle is sound.

To reiterate the principles combined.
1. Brown's Gas and the implosive engine idea
2. HHO DYI by ZeroFossilFuel as a secondary fuel source to supplement stand Gasoline
3. The HHO desired 3.5 litres a minute seemed to be losing potential
4. Realization that 15 M/p/gal of gasoline is at 60mph is only around 0.25 litres a minute.(if I am wrong on this I apologize, it was a 2am calculation)

As Dr Brown's implosion engine principle is that ignited Brown's gas becomes the opposite of the steam effect. Where steam expands to over 1000 times the water used, Browns Gas becoming water again, creates a vacuum when it becomes 1000th of what it was as an expanded gas mixture.

This might also explain why the 3.5 litres desired HHO generated on the fly with astronomical amperages over 30 amps @ 12 VDC is in fact highly an inefficient use of the MPG, or LPM (Litres Per Minute). So hence the reduction of the litres from say 3.5 to 0.35 is a factor of 1/10th, and hence the current if near linear would be about 1/10th, from 35 amps (for round figures) to 3.5 amps, making it a figure I am happy with. Those high amps just scared the hell out of me. lol. So much heat losses etc.

On the other hand, it may well be that the gas is imploding somewhat, and that is the reason why over 3 litres of HHO is required as a supplemental fuel source to the gasoline (I'm Aussie and just can't find myself saying Gas, as here Gas is Natural Gas, LPG or the odd fart ;D ).

Designing an injection system of HHO which may use existing EFI systems with some modifications is probably a major factor in getting this to work. The rest is more or less bolting together everything else, and designing the FEED BACK electronics to regulate it all.

cheers

ZenArrow

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2008, 05:13:47 AM »
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Offline zenarrow

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2008, 06:23:35 AM »
Just to show some "thinking progress" to the ultra newbies.

I am working on an animation.
I am using an old version of (7) of Paint Shop Pro as I have had it for many years.
I use layers to put each main component on, and then can turn off all the irrelevant layers.
Layers is great for being able to move images without interfering with other images.
I then use the accompanying Animation Workshop to create an animated gif using  still image jpgs from the original PSP format file.
Here is a 4 image animation of the basic piston rotation.

Later animation images to allow comparison will include...
1. standard 4 stroke firing with valves timings
2. modified 4 stroke to 2 stroke firing with valves timings mods for implosion vacuum firing.

Incidentally I also have Ulead 11, Video Studio, which will import gifs straight into it, to save as mpg or others like wvm formats to upload to YouTube.

I have a channel I am working on for this called UnityEnergy, which is very new, but will have updates when I am done.

cheers

ZenArrow

Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2008, 06:34:14 AM »
Good observation!

I noticed it during a flashback from a torch to the bubbler which was not full enough.

It sucked in the sides in like puckered cheeks and the torch wouldn't let equalization happen fast enough.

I know H2 burns faster than gasoline.

Where would the optimal firing timing be? TDC?

AFTER TDC to deal with the resulting vacuum?

Good topic!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2008, 06:34:14 AM »
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Offline zenarrow

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2008, 06:56:04 AM »
Good observation!

I noticed it during a flashback from a torch to the bubbler which was not full enough.

It sucked in the sides in like puckered cheeks and the torch wouldn't let equalization happen fast enough.

I know H2 burns faster than gasoline.

Where would the optimal firing timing be? TDC?

AFTER TDC to deal with the resulting vacuum?

Good topic!

I think that BDC would be best for firing.
1. Intake Valve open at TDC
2. Piston sucks on downward stroke to bring the in the intake
3. Intake Valve closes prior to BDC
4. Fire at BDC
5. Resultant implosion sucks the piston back toward TDC
6. Open exhaust valve prior to TDC by several degrees to get rid of the WATER
7. Close exhaust at TDC. (repeat cycle)

Notes...
A. This would mean a 4 stroke modified to 2 stroke by cam timing mods
B. Cam lobes would probably need modification to be open for longer.
C. The usual engine has higher expanded gas volumes, this is the opposite, so exhaust if done correctly will be a few ml of water, which could be further aided by creating a further vacuum on the exhaust manifold with a pump, so as soon as the exhaust valve is opened it will be sucking out into this manifold.

I am trying to do this without too much modification of an existing 4 stroke internal combustion engine.
But all is relative. It does require, major timing changes, to electrical timing and cams. So if you have an old engine lying around with DOHC, you can fiddle with it.

As to whether 2 stroke or 4 stroke is the ideal end product, I think we would be wasting energy resistance with a 4. But a STANDARD 2 stroke petroleum (gasoline) engine would not work that I have thought about, thinking of motorcycles, as they use piston timing to open up ports by the piston itself. Perhaps a diesel two stroke will work, as they have the valves like 4 strokes, but I have not had anything to do with diesels, I will leave that to others. My idea here is to use a simple 4 stroke engine you may have laying around to more easily do these modifications for the backyard mechanical guy who has some electrical knowledge.

Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2008, 07:12:12 AM »
I think that BDC would be best for firing.
1. Intake Valve open at TDC
2. Piston sucks on downward stroke to bring the in the intake
3. Intake Valve closes prior to BDC
4. Fire at BDC
5. Resultant implosion sucks the piston back toward TDC
6. Open exhaust valve prior to TDC by several degrees to get rid of the WATER
7. Close exhaust at TDC. (repeat cycle)

Notes...
A. This would mean a 4 stroke modified to 2 stroke by cam timing mods
B. Cam lobes would probably need modification to be open for longer.
C. The usual engine has higher expanded gas volumes, this is the opposite, so exhaust if done correctly will be a few ml of water, which could be further aided by creating a further vacuum on the exhaust manifold with a pump, so as soon as the exhaust valve is opened it will be sucking out into this manifold.

I am trying to do this without too much modification of an existing 4 stroke internal combustion engine.
But all is relative. It does require, major timing changes, to electrical timing and cams. So if you have an old engine lying around with DOHC, you can fiddle with it.

As to whether 2 stroke or 4 stroke is the ideal end product, I think we would be wasting energy resistance with a 4. But a STANDARD 2 stroke petroleum (gasoline) engine would not work that I have thought about, thinking of motorcycles, as they use piston timing to open up ports by the piston itself. Perhaps a diesel two stroke will work, as they have the valves like 4 strokes, but I have not had anything to do with diesels, I will leave that to others. My idea here is to use a simple 4 stroke engine you may have laying around to more easily do these modifications for the backyard mechanical guy who has some electrical knowledge.


I'm not sure the engine can stand that type of hammering.

What I mean is, the explosion does have a energy output, even if not compressed.

It's just going to expend itself trying to push the crankshaft down below its lowest point?
It might be enough force to defeat the layer of oil that is the bearing and allowing surfaces to touch and wear.

I'm not saying it wouldn't work, but where is the explosion potential being used?

Offline zenarrow

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2008, 07:26:24 AM »
I'm not sure the engine can stand that type of hammering.

What I mean is, the explosion does have a energy output, even if not compressed.

It's just going to expend itself trying to push the crankshaft down below its lowest point?
It might be enough force to defeat the layer of oil that is the bearing and allowing surfaces to touch and wear.

I'm not saying it wouldn't work, but where is the explosion potential being used?

Having not actually experimented with these things, I am only using theory from things I have read.
As far as I have read, the ignition of HHO (Brown's Gas) in a sealed cylinder, does not explode. It implodes. So it creates a vacuum. The gas becomes water. The opposite of creating steam in principle, from what I understand. What happens to the flames etc I am not sure either. I was under the impression Dr Brown did have an engine running from it.

So it would in theory run cool by it's own conversion. It should run quietly as it is not exploding.

Perhaps an idea to test it is to create a sealed container with a spark plug going into it. Kinda like the bubbler of pvc, but sealed. However it must keep the zeal the whole time or else other air coming in might make it explode if it ruptures from the vacuum. Maybe just a good old ORCHY bottle dude ;)
Something which will take the flex and not rupture. Put spark plug in the cap and tap it on. Ignite it and see what happens and report back your findings. Maybe the standard 2 litre milk container will do nicely, it's got lots of flex. DO BE CAREFUL! Please do not hold me responsible for any lapses in judgement. Make sure no air gets in their till after it has ignited and sat there for a little while, just to be sure.

Peace, be well, and for God's sake, think ahead.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2008, 07:26:24 AM »
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Offline zenarrow

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2008, 07:45:24 AM »
I didnt realize how huge that animation was.
I actually find it good to look at while I am visualizing in my mind how these things connect to it.
But hey, each to their own.
Here's the smaller version. Not so easy to reduce the size of a gif with my tools, but the psp and the jpgs is not a problem. This will be the base I will use for the timing animations and explanations.

Feel free do save image as for your own purposes.


Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2008, 07:49:37 AM »
Having not actually experimented with these things, I am only using theory from things I have read.
As far as I have read, the ignition of HHO (Brown's Gas) in a sealed cylinder, does not explode. It implodes. So it creates a vacuum. The gas becomes water. The opposite of creating steam in principle, from what I understand. What happens to the flames etc I am not sure either. I was under the impression Dr Brown did have an engine running from it.

It explodes, and then implodes but the conversion time between expanding and condensing is small and both are very powerful.

So it would in theory run cool by it's own conversion. It should run quietly as it is not exploding.

Perhaps an idea to test it is to create a sealed container with a spark plug going into it. Kinda like the bubbler of pvc, but sealed. However it must keep the zeal the whole time or else other air coming in might make it explode if it ruptures from the vacuum. Maybe just a good old ORCHY bottle dude ;)
Something which will take the flex and not rupture. Put spark plug in the cap and tap it on. Ignite it and see what happens and report back your findings. Maybe the standard 2 litre milk container will do nicely, it's got lots of flex. DO BE CAREFUL! Please do not hold me responsible for any lapses in judgement. Make sure no air gets in their till after it has ignited and sat there for a little while, just to be sure.

Peace, be well, and for God's sake, think ahead.

Well, I've done those types (not those exactly) experiments and only once was I able to induce a flashback through the torch to the bubbler to see the effect of the vacuum.
It's tricky since you have to get the gas amount just right to not exploded the plastic bottle.

But this is something I've always wondered about since the explode/condense cycle happens so quickly if the use of HHO isn't robbing itself of generated power because the stroke cycle in a piston engine is too long.

Just a thought I had.


Offline zenarrow

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2008, 08:12:22 AM »
It explodes, and then implodes but the conversion time between expanding and condensing is small and both are very powerful.

Well, I've done those types (not those exactly) experiments and only once was I able to induce a flashback through the torch to the bubbler to see the effect of the vacuum.
It's tricky since you have to get the gas amount just right to not exploded the plastic bottle.

But this is something I've always wondered about since the explode/condense cycle happens so quickly if the use of HHO isn't robbing itself of generated power because the stroke cycle in a piston engine is too long.

Just a thought I had.

Very very interesting.
I am optomistic that balance of mixtures, valve intake time, and electrical timing, along with the combination of electronics feedback tuning will have a fine tuning effect.

I once saw someone with a crook fuel pump on a V8, have a very large vegemite jar of petrol held near the throat of the carbie (fuel filter assembly removed), and it sucked the fuel from the jar into the carbie, by a balance of just not tipping it, but on the edge point of tipping it in. The sucking of the engine sucked it in and revived the engine. In a way we were like being the carbie with our angles mixing it so to speak. Crude, but worked. But in far need of tuning for efficiency. For too much, and it back fired, and just missed igniting what my friend was holding in his hand. Boys and their toys ;)

So back to your experiments, did the mixture expand then implode? or did it just implode? And was it perfectly sealed from any other air?

For the stroke being too long, as you brought up, perhaps, opening valves for short times, to give only a minor amount in the cyclinder. Since this is more volatile in its power than petroleum, perhaps it doesnt need as much as would be mixed through the carbie, and the duration length of the intake valves cycle?

It's a bit of a balance, effect, but so is the modern carbie.


Offline zenarrow

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2008, 09:43:41 AM »
I have done more research on this with google about Dr Yul Brown, with "Dr Brown Brown's Gas Water" as the search. There is a lot there.

He was a Bulgerian born physicist which worked on heavy water, and came up with a lot of experiments and devices. From blow torch. 1 litre of water makes 1360 litres of brown gas.


Heres a link to the main homepage of what seems to be the follow on of his work as an independant website... http://www.brownsgas.com/brownsgashome.html




Offline Jokker

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2008, 10:39:43 AM »
U can find about water electrolysis at
http://www.hydrogen.asn.au/hydrogen-technical-calculations.htm

I calculated and u will get from 1 l of water about 0,5 l of liquid hydrogen.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2008, 10:39:43 AM »

 

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