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Author Topic: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !  (Read 60575 times)

Offline AB Hammer

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Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2008, 06:48:51 PM »
eavogels

 With the rod between them the lower one will always have more weight. I still only looked at it as a Chaos Pendulum, myself.

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Offline eavogels

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Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
« Reply #46 on: May 23, 2008, 10:48:00 PM »
I had a hard time to come into this site again but in the mean time I had Stephan's simulation running many times. They all stoped with the thick line pointing to 3 o'clock.
If someone else has another result perhaps wm2d gives different results for different processor speeds?
/Eric


Offline AquariuZ

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Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2008, 04:51:09 AM »
@niente

The simulation is invalid. Whoever did this put an illegal value in the field that specifies the mass of the polygon. Change it to 1.0 kg and it will behave as expected. See screenhot below. The programme should have rejected the value entered, but that is an editing problem not a real fault in the simulation.

Hans von Lieven

I beg to differ Hans. If you input one gram (i.e 0.001 kg) it will still accelerate, be it at a slower rate.

And 1.000e-004 kg equals 0.0001 kg or a 10th of a gram, so this is certainly not an invalid value.
Bet that as it may, anything over one gram eventually stalls the model.

I can find nothing wrong with it frankly, it is completely symmetrical, with standard 1.00 kg weights for the individual components, gravity and air resistance active....

So what then? Program error?

If not...

Puzzling. I wonder if this can be built...  ???

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2008, 06:46:32 AM »
@aquariuz


You misunderstand me, I did not say that this was not a valid mathematical expression. The program considers it an illegal value and crashes.
It would appear this field takes only integers.

Hans


Offline AquariuZ

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Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2008, 05:39:59 PM »
@Hans

As a software engineer I can assure you they are using scientific filters to display data which is out of the ordinary range, this is quite common for scientific software. Again if you use a value of 0.001 KG (in decimal range) it still shows the acceleration. The same goes for Kinetic energy and all other variables which can be assigned to the model components. This makes a lot of sense, especially if you need to accuratly measure torque, drag, rotational accelleration and deacceleration. You simply cannot do it in another way because you will be quickly running into 32-bit calculation limitations. Variables like long, double, float can hold only so much accuracy behind the decimal point, so you will need at least represent your numbers scientifically to remain accurate to say around 100 places behind the decimal point.

I have contacted Design Simulation Technologies (makers wm2d) support about this last night, and have sent them the model. I am currently scaling it down from 100s of meters to .5 meter components and see if I can reproduce then as well. The reason this huge model works may even be earth rotation adding to momentum I have no clue.

It?s up to DST to prove their software is not failing here, if they debug the model and find nothing wrong Niente has Something which is definitly not "niente". If they do conclude it is a glitch I cannot possible see why wm2d should be used in the future by anyone unless they fix the specific coding errors which cause this.

Hans, I admire your work and writings, but on this particular point I emphatically disagree with you.  :)

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Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2008, 05:39:59 PM »
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Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2008, 01:33:12 AM »
G'day Aquariuz,

I am not a software engineer but I am a mechanical engineer. Apart from the fact that the simulation uses an impossible material for the coupling of the two bodies (It uses a material that is stronger than steel and lighter than hydrogen) I cannot see how the earth's rotation can influence the action of the wheel since there is no such parameter in the programme that I can find.

The programme should have thrown the value out as impossible, or at least have given a warning.

Remember the early chess programmes where you could play against the computer? You could win every game against the computer by making a series of irrational moves. The programme simply got so confused it went haywire and started sacrificing vital figures. I think something like this could be happening here.

Hans von Lieven

Offline AquariuZ

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Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2008, 01:47:26 AM »
@Niente & Hans

I found the error thank god. The left polygon (6) has different dimensions than the other "spokes".

Poly 6 has a mass of 1Kg and momentum of 1500 Kg/m? as opposed to the other spokes who have mass of 1Kg and momentum of 1552.083 Kg/m?. You can clearly see the location of ply six on the plane as (-140,70) where the others are around (67.5,140), (140,67.5) and (67.5,140) non absolute.

Changing poly six?s dimensions gives a model that fails to make a single rotation. (Cannot be tested because max frames is 32765) corrected model attached.

So Hans is right, the model was invalid, but it had nothing to do with the notation of the small bar. So we were both at least a little bit right.

Please note the scientific notation in the momentum measurement window of polygon 2, the center rectangle.

I?ll copy DST on this, this looks like a bug, even though the model was not in balance, acceleration should not be possible. Downsizing the model gives about the same results as the attached corrected version.

Aquariuz

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Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2008, 01:47:26 AM »
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Offline AquariuZ

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Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2008, 01:54:35 AM »
I am not a software engineer but I am a mechanical engineer. Apart from the fact that the simulation uses an impossible material for the coupling of the two bodies (It uses a material that is stronger than steel and lighter than hydrogen) I cannot see how the earth's rotation can influence the action of the wheel since there is no such parameter in the programme that I can find.

I just read your reply. Defending software is a bad habit!  :D

My old troubleshooting itch made me want to find the flaw and there you go. naturally the model is off the charts both marterial wise and dimension wise. I should have broken apart once Run was pressed. Fun program though, but appearantly not too reliable for Bessler tests as was remarked before...........

Thanks

Offline AquariuZ

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Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
« Reply #53 on: May 25, 2008, 02:01:29 AM »
Changing poly six?s dimensions gives a model that fails to make a single rotation. (Cannot be tested because max frames is 32765) corrected model attached.

The corrected model just started accelerating. I give up.

 ;D

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
« Reply #54 on: May 25, 2008, 02:03:49 AM »
Well done Aquariuz!

Good on you for applying your obvious expertise to a problem we have with the programme. Hopefully it will lead to better simulation software.

Thank you

Hans

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Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
« Reply #54 on: May 25, 2008, 02:03:49 AM »
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Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
« Reply #55 on: May 25, 2008, 01:34:39 PM »
G.day all,

I have had a bit of fun with Erick's creation. I just took some of the constraints off and it went really nuts. Something for you to look at Aquariuz.

Hans von Lieven

Offline AquariuZ

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Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
« Reply #56 on: May 26, 2008, 12:29:50 AM »
G.day all,

I have had a bit of fun with Erick's creation. I just took some of the constraints off and it went really nuts. Something for you to look at Aquariuz.

Hans von Lieven

It?s a spider creature from Sirius!!!! Edit: switch on Air Resistance (high) and it looks less alien.

 :D

PS: did hartiberlin give up on his model?? Looked promising.


Offline AB Hammer

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Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
« Reply #57 on: May 26, 2008, 12:45:26 AM »
Greetings All

 I sent Stefan the videos and an extra one without the rod, making it just a twin pendulum wheel. It is up to him to post his design. I think I'll post the twin pendulum on my youtube though. He may be working on trying to change something and make a better version. So I would just wait until he is ready.

 I sent Hans a different version to take a look at, but I think I will reserve showing that one as for now.

Just an update.

Offline eavogels

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Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
« Reply #58 on: May 26, 2008, 06:26:26 AM »
IPS: did hartiberlin give up on his model?? Looked promising.
SInce the wm2d model stopped after a while, every time I tested it, I wondered if someone else could let it run for a little bit longer then Stephan's AVI showed. But no response.
/Eric


Offline hartiberlin

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Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
« Reply #59 on: May 26, 2008, 08:43:30 PM »
Sorry All,
haven?t had yet the time to continue working on it.
You know,you need at least a few hours of free time
to test and ponder about these designs in deepth
and can?t do it just, if you have only 20 minutes of free time..

Will continue soon.

Regards, Stefan.

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Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
« Reply #59 on: May 26, 2008, 08:43:30 PM »

 

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