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Author Topic: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex  (Read 113272 times)

Offline Alexioco

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #60 on: May 16, 2008, 02:46:32 AM »
Yes, there is a problem in the drawings which only Ralph caught on which impressed me, shows you his experience  ;D
that?s why I have not shown the wheel I have built, but I will do, but not yet...

As to what Ralph says about keeping what he says to me confidential, there is no problem there, he has offered to help me, and I accept his help and respect his opions and also any concerns he might have...
In the meanwhile, we keep learning and learning.

To keep a wheel turning, we have a lot of learning,
Through principle of excess weight, free energy, we are earning. ;)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #60 on: May 16, 2008, 02:46:32 AM »

Offline perma

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #61 on: May 16, 2008, 03:24:49 AM »
Thanks for an interesting thread, but the whole  'I know something cool but I'm not tellin' seems to be a reoccurring theme on this board and is really growing old. Why put 80% of a design out there, try and rally support from the community, and then announce that you're holding back the secret sauce while people who are eager to help replicate your design waste their time 're-inventing the wheel' so-to-speak.

I'm confuzzled by this trend... ???

Perma


Offline Alexioco

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #62 on: May 16, 2008, 03:28:56 AM »
Thanks for an interesting thread, but the whole  'I know something cool but I'm not tellin' seems to be a reoccurring theme on this board and is really growing old. Why put 80% of a design out there, try and rally support from the community, and then announce that you're holding back the secret sauce while people who are eager to help replicate your design waste their time 're-inventing the wheel' so-to-speak.

I'm confuzzled by this trend... ???

Perma

I can understand what you mean, thats why im just gonna post the idea, i give up lol, i really do

Ralph shall we just post the thing and we can all work on it, hes right really, I have asked for help, they gave some and now its time to show them the tiny difference about the wheel, and trust me, its small... so Ralph, shall we?

p.s ill wait for Ralph

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #63 on: May 16, 2008, 03:34:32 AM »
Why do you wait for Ralph ?

Did he help you to get there ?


Offline AB Hammer

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #64 on: May 16, 2008, 04:00:21 AM »
Alex has been corresponding with Ralph and myself for quite awhile. Either Ralph or myself would check out  his ideas and give him answers, the whys and why nots. Even if they where bad we would hold no punches. I feel it is a respect thing.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #64 on: May 16, 2008, 04:00:21 AM »
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Offline rlortie

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #65 on: May 16, 2008, 04:40:53 AM »
 
[Ralph shall we just post the thing and we can all work on it, hes right really, I have asked for help, they gave some and now its time to show them the tiny difference about the wheel, and trust me, its small... so Ralph, shall we?]

Its your wheel your design, I only reviewed it and made comment at your request. By all rights it is yours to do as you please. I currently have no prior claim to any part of it. You may with my blessing remove the word "we" from your above quote.

Now if and when I  build it, augment and change as I see fit then it will be a different story. I will claim recognition and royalty's based on the percentage of change to the design. 

To save face and reputation let it go!  You have carried to the point that you have already let the fox in the hen house. You have already showed them what you sent me. The discretion is yours, all I can say is that if it were mine and I enticed them as you have, my integrity  would say let them have it.

Remember my old signature "Its nice to have a full deck to draw from as you may not be standing with a pat hand"

Ralph 

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #66 on: May 16, 2008, 04:44:57 AM »
G'day all,

The simulation I published was not intended as a serious effort to create a wheel. All I wanted to show is that WM2D is not what it is cracked up to be, as the simulation does not behave as a wheel of similar construction would behave if built.

I have changed the pins as Stefan suggested but it still behaves irrationally. I would say that as a serious tool this programme leaves a lot to be desired.

Hans von Lieven

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #66 on: May 16, 2008, 04:44:57 AM »
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Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #67 on: May 16, 2008, 04:57:44 AM »
@Ralph,

The example of the wheel I put up is not apropos the thread. What is, is the fact that WM2D is being used to evaluate Alex's ideas. I posted the simulation and my comments purely to show not to put too much stock in this simulation programme, as probably some simulations will tell you it won't work when it does, and some it will work when it's a dud.

Just be careful.

When it is all said and done, there is no substitute for building.

Hans von Lieven

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #68 on: May 16, 2008, 05:03:49 AM »
Hi Hans,
your simulation behaves quite natural.
This will just spin up a bit to one side, will come to a stop
and reverses again,so it is spinning a bit back and forth, until it
comes to a stop.

I am still a Newbie with WM2D and still try to learn it,
but it is a very powerful program and pretty reliable.

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #69 on: May 16, 2008, 05:20:18 AM »
No, Stefan it does not behave naturally.

After the simulation comes to a standstill there is massive acceleration on the return. That is NOT natural behaviour if the wheel itself is in a balanced state to start with.

If you give a balanced wheel a push, it will come to a standstill. It will not reverse direction like a pendulum.

There is something decidedly odd here. It would seem to me from my other simulations that the more kinetic components there are in the system the more unreliable the programme becomes.

Hans von Lieven

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #69 on: May 16, 2008, 05:20:18 AM »
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Offline fletcher

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #70 on: May 16, 2008, 05:25:58 AM »

Hi Hans - I concur - I wrote this reply on a thread [BW.com] this morning about a 'runner' that didn't appear to be behaving as you might expect- btw Rainer professionally supports the product in industry.

edited for brevity ... Hi .. interesting design concept for sure - Rainer dropped in last night - he is having great difficulty accessing the board at the moment hence I'm posting on his behalf this morning after he rang me - I showed him your sim & got him to take a look at it as it seems a little peculiar to us - we tried a few things to test its integrity & got some interesting results.

If you anchor the pendulum bob to the background the system locks up & keels [this you would expect] - if you lock it down with a rod attached to the background the sim accelerates away as usual [this shouldn't happen] - Rainer went into the accuracy settings & increased the accuracy & it was still a runner, ... so he went deeper - he changed the way it calculates to Euler [a different calculation method from Kutta] & it keeled, regardless of accuracy settings i.e. number of frames per second - he then changed it back to the Kutta-Merson method of calculating [its original setting] & it keels this time.

His thoughts are that the problem lies in the way the gear forces are calculating thru - since the program is iterative then it's a discreet process, frame by frame - he thinks the forces calculating on the gears are out of sinc [so to speak] with the frames calculating [steps per min] - this would result [he thinks] in a fictitious force or torque on the gears thus turning the sim - apparently the Euler calculating method is another way for sims to do their totaling - he is suspicious of your initial 'runner' in that it keels in both methods after it is changed to Euler & then back again ???

He asked me to say that using WM as a tool is fine but it shouldn't be entirely trusted or relied upon [especially in this field] - he gave the analogy of would he trust to go flying with a brand new helicopter pilot - maybe, & maybe everything would be ok - he would have a lot more trust that things would go well with a pilot of 20 years experience.

We are not trying to rain on your parade [only give our opinions of the sims integrity & reliability] but suggest that you don't always trust the sim results - you are building the REAL DEAL so that should prove your principle beyond a doubt & we both wish you well with that.  

Other things to look out for is use of polygons - the program can sometimes get confused & use the inside surface for reaction force calculations - try not to use the polygon tool.

Overlap error to big - the program misses a step in calculating giving erroneous results - reduce the iteration steps & watch for overlap tolerances.

Placement of pins etc not accurate enough - restraints break N.B. if you get a "restraint warning" do not trust the program after that point - means the program has left out some calculations it can not resolve - usually due to builder error.

Other ones that Rainer knows about - if you know what to look out for.

All in all, in the right hands, it is an excellent, accurate & reliable tool to assist analysis or design & planning of a build, but should not be taken as gospel - doesn't replace common sense & a good eye for detail & observation.



Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #71 on: May 16, 2008, 05:41:40 AM »
Thanks Fletcher, your comments are helpful.

Hans


Offline rlortie

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #72 on: May 16, 2008, 05:45:14 AM »
Hans,

Sorry that I misinterpreted the full reasoning for your simulation.

[When it is all said and done, there is no substitute for building.]

All I will say is that I agree and that I do not believe a simulation of  Alex's design would prove fruitful.

Ralph



Offline fletcher

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #73 on: May 16, 2008, 06:04:35 AM »
Hans .. may I suggest you delete your extra weight ball to get your sim rotating [so its not in the system] - then use the torque tool to add some rotational element [place it anywhere on the mech - give it a positive or negative value which dictates the direction the torque will occur - use say 100 Netwons or less - try making it active for say 2 seconds only [see graphic] - then, if the center of the sim is coloured select the coloured parts & go to window>appearance>patterns & select NO [this will make the parts transparent - then select view>system center of mass [CoM] - then run your sim.

Now you will see the entire systems CoM as it oscillates beneath & to the side of the Center of Rotation - this will show why it accelerates IMO.


Offline fletcher

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #74 on: May 16, 2008, 07:44:11 AM »
Can't seem to edit the above post - here's a closeup pic of the CoM - it should travel from side to side, swinging beneath the axle as the oscillations dampen down [assumng there is some air resistance [quick & dirty friction added] or pin friction etc.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #74 on: May 16, 2008, 07:44:11 AM »

 

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