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Author Topic: Test of aluplate<->sand-graphite-tablesalt battery cell  (Read 22731 times)

Offline hartiberlin

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Test of aluplate<->sand-graphite-tablesalt battery cell
« on: August 18, 2005, 02:06:50 AM »
Hi All,
I did today again a few test, cause I wanted to see, if the
crystall battery effect of M. Reid and John Hutchinson could
be made with an aluminium plate and a mix of SIO2 ( sand)
and graphite powder.

Therefore I took an aluplate about 2 mm thickness and about 25 x 15 cm wide
and scrubbed the oxid layer away with sandpaper of the aluplate and then
applied to the blank surface a mix of SIO2 and graphite powder, which I had mixed
very well with my electric coffee mixer.
I took some tap water to make the graphite-SIO2 mix wet like a paste and
painted this as a small layer directly onto the aluplate surface.
As the aluplate immediately build up an Aluoxid layer we have a very small
layer of maybe a diode there at these surface layer.

The result is, that in the wet state we have a battery cell of about 0.5 to 0.6 Volts
between the wet sand-graphite mix and the aluplate and a shortcircuit current of
about 1 to 2 mA can be drawn.

Then I put the aluplate on my oven and heated the plate with the sand-graphite mix
on it so that all water was evapouring and going off the mix.

When the aluplate? was finally pretty hot, so I could not touch it anymore
and the water was gone, the voltage was going down to almost zero and
also no current could be pulled anymore from the plate.

So this was rather disappointing, as I have thought, that maybe some
electrical output could be generated in a dry state without the galvanic
effect as in the wet state...

Okay, I did not wait until the plate was totally cooled down and I scrubbed
down again the mix from the plate and this time I added tablesalt ( NACL)
to the mix, made again a paste with water with it and again
painted it onto the plate as a thin layer of maybe 1 to 2? mm thickness.
Now this time the wet state generated much more power:
about 0.7 Volts and the short circuit current was around 3 to 5 mA !

When I then began to heat the aluplate again on the oven
the shortcircuit current also went up to about 10 mA.

Then when? all water has dried out of the paste mix,
the voltage of the cell was only 0.13 Volts and the
short circuit current was only 1 mA.

So well, it seems when one heats the plate too fast
and too long, that all the crystals that form in the mix
will be destroyed and the needed surface layers of the aluminiumoxid
are somehow destroyed.
It seems this cell only works well due to the galvanic effect in a wet state,
but if NACL is added also in the dry state there is still some output.

I have to recheck this again by letting the pastemix dry much slower
itsself, so one can see, if in the dry state there is more output then,
when the saltcrystalls can grow slower and more stable inside the
paste.

I will let you know.

Enclosed is a picture of the plate with just the graphite-sand paste
in a dry state ontop of it.
I just placed the meter with one pin ontop of the graphite-mix and
with the other tip directly at the aluplate.

Regards, Stefan.
P.S: if you click onto the small thumbnail you will see the picture in the original
640x480 size. This picture was made with my mobile phone, so it is a bit unsharp.Sorry.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Test of aluplate<->sand-graphite-tablesalt battery cell
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2005, 02:18:01 AM »
P.S: It could be, that in the second test with the added NACL
I did not remove ALL water from the mix, cause I did not heat it too long
and as the NaCL is a bit hygroscopic ( tried to suck in water from the air)
that there remained some water inside the paste mix and thus
all output is only due to galvanic action
and not the effect that Hutchinson and Markus Reid have in their
crystall batteries.

I guess I must retry it with the same salts that Markus Reid is using.

Regards, Stefan.


Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Test of aluplate<->sand-graphite-tablesalt battery cell
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2005, 02:41:59 AM »
Now after about an hour later the cell is up again to
0.25 volts open circuit and 2.5 mA short circuit current.

Maybe the salt in the mix has attracted now again some
water from the air, so now the galvanic process has started again ?

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Test of aluplate<->sand-graphite-tablesalt battery cell
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2005, 04:27:43 AM »
Now after again about 1 hour later the cell has gone up to 0.32 Volts open circuit
and shortcircuit current is 3.5 mA.


gast

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Re: Test of aluplate<->sand-graphite-tablesalt battery cell
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2005, 11:19:05 AM »
Stefan, do you use a second plate on the top side of the paste graphite-SIO2 mix?
How you did the voltage measurement? By putting the probe head of you voltagemeter directly into the dry mix and the other one on the plate? If you use a second plate on the top of the mix the contact-surface between the mix and the two plates should be much larger - and maybe the amount of mAmpers too?

How about using 2 plates with your mix between which are applied by a low DC voltage during the drying-process?
Maybe the current have any organising effect to the forming of the cristall-structur?

Bye.. Gast

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Re: Test of aluplate<->sand-graphite-tablesalt battery cell
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2005, 11:19:05 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Test of aluplate<->sand-graphite-tablesalt battery cell
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2005, 03:16:48 PM »
Hi Gast, you are right, I just put the meter probe onto the mix.
As the graphite is pretty conductive, this is pretty okay.
Yes, you can get more current out, if you would put a graphite plate onto the mix
at the top, but graphite plates are expensive!

You can get the same current out with a different method, that I will not yet reveal
over here. ;)

Yes, a small current during the drying process really helps.
This can be done easily by applying a resistor load to the cell.
This helps to form the crystals  in the right direction, so the
current later is bigger.

The big question still is, if the cell will also work, when all
water is evapourated out of the mix.
I have now re-weted the mix and now just let it dry outside
slowly in the sun.

When it was reweted, the cell again puts out 0.66 Volts and
around 10 mA .

Regards, Stefan.

gast

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Re: Test of aluplate<->sand-graphite-tablesalt battery cell
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2005, 04:14:30 PM »
>> Yes, you can get more current out, if you would put a graphite plate onto the mix
>> at the top, but graphite plates are expensive!
What about an empty beverage can made from aluminium and a graphite rod from an pencil in the middle of the can?
(a composition like a normal battery. Maybe you can open and wear away an old 1,5 Volt battery which is made from zinc and graphit and fill in your own stuff)

>> Yes, a small current during the drying process really helps.
Oh, did you still verify it?

>> When it was reweted, the cell again puts out 0.66 Volts and around 10 mA.
Hmmm, but this sounds more like a normal elecrtrolytical reaction. Nothing what is caused by the cristaline structure.

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Re: Test of aluplate<->sand-graphite-tablesalt battery cell
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2005, 04:14:30 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Test of aluplate<->sand-graphite-tablesalt battery cell
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2005, 09:15:07 PM »
Yes, this can be done, using an empty beverage can, but they normally
have not aluminium but other metal alloys, so the voltage can be lower
and you have to make sure you put out the plastic coating of it on the
inner walls.
But as the surface mainly matters it is better to put the graphite-salt mix
better on larger plates or bigger sizzed alufoils and thus get more output current this way.

Also if you use Zamak alloy you have a much longer lasting time of the metals,
but Zamak is harder to get than alufoil, which you can buy in every supermarket.

Yes, the current helps to build up a better cells. Walter Hofmann has
already done this and has first seen it.
When I applied the heat from the oven and shortcircuited the cell
during heating, the current did rise and afterwards had a bigger value,
so it helps to have a current running during the crystal forming process.

Yes, I agree, when the graphite-salt-mix is wet the cell just works mainly
on the galvanic process and uses up the aluminium metal.

Regards. Stefan.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2005, 09:32:00 PM by hartiberlin »

gast

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Re: Test of aluplate<->sand-graphite-tablesalt battery cell
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2005, 11:23:48 PM »
Sorry Stefan, but what is "zamak alloy"? Alloy = "legierung", but zamak... I don't know.

>> When I applied the heat from the oven and shortcircuited the cell
>> during heating, the current did rise and afterwards had a bigger value,
Hm, shortcutting the cell will result in a current with an max amount which the cell is able to produce at this moment.
So if the cell is low on power it will result in an lower current for the forming-process.
Did Walter Hofmann (or you) test the forming process using a higher current provide by an external power source?

Regards Gast

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Test of aluplate<->sand-graphite-tablesalt battery cell
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2005, 04:01:35 AM »
Have a look at:

http://www.matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnum=MZN40A

and

http://www.matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnum=MZN43A

No, I have not yet tested an external bigger current.
That might be a good idea to try.

Do you think it should be pulsed DC or just only DC current ?

Regards, Stefan.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Test of aluplate<->sand-graphite-tablesalt battery cell
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2005, 04:01:35 AM »
Sponsored links:




gast

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Re: Test of aluplate<->sand-graphite-tablesalt battery cell
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2005, 09:27:20 AM »
Stefan, thank you for the links.

>> Do you think it should be pulsed DC or just only DC current ?

If you have the possibilities try both. I would test plain DC first. Good success!

Regards Gast

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Test of aluplate<->sand-graphite-tablesalt battery cell
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2005, 06:10:41 PM »
Well I had a curious thing happening today.

As I came back to the plate this morning, there was some black
slurry gasing out of a few holes in the graphite paste mix
and some black surry water droplets formed on the surface.

The black surry had a NEGATIVE voltage ( about - 0.1 Volt) versus the alu plate)
compared to the rest of the
black mix, which still had around 0.4 Volts versus the aluplate? !

Hmm, I then heated the plate again on the oven? until all
water was gone and evapourated.
The gasing out of the holes was then
accelerating... so there must have been some
kind of chemical reaction been going on...

Pretty strange that it just started only 2 days after I made the
plate with the mix on the top... Hmm...

Then there was no voltage left and also no current
( still in a heated temperature)

Then when the temperature had dropped 30 minutes later to
room temperature, there is again about 0.3 Volts and 2.5 mA available.

Maybe the mix sucks in water from the air and thus can again
generate a galvanic? process ?

Regards, Stefan.


Offline Walter Hofmann

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Re: Test of aluplate<->sand-graphite-tablesalt battery cell
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2005, 11:41:49 AM »
Hi gast,
yes I did try prety much al kind of external power AC up to 40Khz and DC also current up to 6 Amp, what is happening is that the cells then work like a capacitor and you can use the amount charged but no more comes out and the cell does not generate the same amount of power then without the charging. On the contrary if the cells are short circuit at the start up in specific intervalls the cell will perform a much higher and longer lasting output. The most importand part is that the alu or alloy is insulated from the graphite in order to get the most current out the insulation increases the current up to 100%. to insulate alu you can use a chemical version where on the alu plate is a kind of honey comb oxide created what insulates the plate totally but the graphit will go in to alle the tiny cave's.
greetings
walt


Sorry Stefan, but what is "zamak alloy"? Alloy = "legierung", but zamak... I don't know.

>> When I applied the heat from the oven and shortcircuited the cell
>> during heating, the current did rise and afterwards had a bigger value,
Hm, shortcutting the cell will result in a current with an max amount which the cell is able to produce at this moment.
So if the cell is low on power it will result in an lower current for the forming-process.
Did Walter Hofmann (or you) test the forming process using a higher current provide by an external power source?

Regards Gast

Offline Walter Hofmann

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Re: Test of aluplate<->sand-graphite-tablesalt battery cell
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2005, 12:05:05 PM »
Hi stefan,
yes I did have the phenomen with the black slurry droplets to, it is a combination of chemical reaction, the electrical short build by direct applying the graphit on to the surface of the alu plate and the air. I have seen this only if the hole setup is not enclosed the same thing happening if the graphite is to moist then the water will be drawn to the surface and build sometimes even a hole layer of water what is then dangerous to the contact material.
further it is importand the use a cantact plate for the connection to the graphite bedcause without you only pick up what the leadtip surface can take what is not much thats why you only get the smale amount of current. with your setup size you should get at least 0.8V open circuit and 80 to 100 mA short circuit.
That the process startet only 2 days after the initial setup is common if you remeber my first couple tests because thats the initial priming process sometimes it takes up to 5 days and this is what you can shorten with the intervall short and after this the hole cell will settle to the final output value.
The accelerating of the gases comes from the direct connection of the graphite and is a mix of hydrogen and chlor gases pretty much the same thing what you can experience with the setup in a glas with saltsolution a alu or alloy rod and a graphite rod and applying external charge.
Further depends the graphit sand mixture on the kind of sand what you are using because there are many diffferent typ's of sand the simplest test is to take some put it on a moist sponge and polish a piece of alu if you got deep scratches the sand is hard ( its called sharp sand) and will not work as well as soft sand ( like beach sand) and then there is the question what impurities in what amount the sand holds.
greetings
walt



Well I had a curious thing happening today.

As I came back to the plate this morning, there was some black
slurry gasing out of a few holes in the graphite paste mix
and some black surry water droplets formed on the surface.

The black surry had a NEGATIVE voltage ( about - 0.1 Volt) versus the alu plate)
compared to the rest of the
black mix, which still had around 0.4 Volts versus the aluplate? !

Hmm, I then heated the plate again on the oven? until all
water was gone and evapourated.
The gasing out of the holes was then
accelerating... so there must have been some
kind of chemical reaction been going on...

Pretty strange that it just started only 2 days after I made the
plate with the mix on the top... Hmm...

Then there was no voltage left and also no current
( still in a heated temperature)

Then when the temperature had dropped 30 minutes later to
room temperature, there is again about 0.3 Volts and 2.5 mA available.

Maybe the mix sucks in water from the air and thus can again
generate a galvanic? process ?

Regards, Stefan.


Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Test of aluplate<->sand-graphite-tablesalt battery cell
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2005, 05:04:19 PM »
Have a look here.
Directly uploaded via mobile phone via MMS.
When we will have the mail2SMF function, I could
post directly over here the pics via mobile phone,
but the mail2SMF function is not yet ready, so go here:

http://phlog.net/user/harti

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Test of aluplate<->sand-graphite-tablesalt battery cell
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2005, 05:04:19 PM »

 

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