Author Topic: A Conversation (Read 14871 times)

Elvis Oswald · « **on:** January 20, 2008, 04:08:04 AM »

This begins a conversation... and all are welcome to join our conversation on the subject of the nature of electricity.

We may perform a few experiments... but - this is a discussion. So no need for equipment.

They say a gram of prevention = a kilo of cure. They also say, cut once - measure twice. So it is good to reason before jumping to conclusions.
I wish to start with reason and reach conclusions... but not the conclusions of the last 130 years

I believe the current zeitgeist about electricity is a tangent. I believe we took a wrong turn somewhere... and that we should back up a step or two.

If you prefer to "stay the course" - this is not for you.
If you are a college educated engineer who cannot think outside the box - this is not for you.

We are beginning here - with http://www.teslasociety.com/biography.htm

I was born and raised in the heart of the USA and I never heard Tesla's name in school.
So I believe that there has been an effort to suppress the name... and therefore suppress the later discoveries.

So let's begin with a discussion of the nature of electricity... and let's begin to get a picture of what electricity is, and was, to Tesla in the 1880's.

Let's start there and begin a conversation about electricity.

one · « **Reply #1 on:** January 20, 2008, 05:57:20 AM »

Quote from: Elvis Oswald on January 20, 2008, 04:08:04 AM

This begins a conversation... and all are welcome to join our conversation on the subject of the nature of electricity.

We may perform a few experiments... but - this is a discussion. So no need for equipment.

They say a gram of prevention = a kilo of cure. They also say, cut once - measure twice. So it is good to reason before jumping to conclusions.
I wish to start with reason and reach conclusions... but not the conclusions of the last 130 years

I believe the current zeitgeist about electricity is a tangent. I believe we took a wrong turn somewhere... and that we should back up a step or two.

If you prefer to "stay the course" - this is not for you.
If you are a college educated engineer who cannot think outside the box - this is not for you.

We are beginning here - with http://www.teslasociety.com/biography.htm

I was born and raised in the heart of the USA and I never heard Tesla's name in school.
So I believe that there has been an effort to suppress the name... and therefore suppress the later discoveries.

So let's begin with a discussion of the nature of electricity... and let's begin to get a picture of what electricity is, and was, to Tesla in the 1880's.

Let's start there and begin a conversation about electricity.

Elvis

I don't have any quotes at the moment but I think you are on the right track

Tesla knew more about the true nature of electricity than anyone sense his time.

Others have made some progress but are soon suppressed .

Hopefully forums like this can help get past the suppression . This world doesn't have much of a future unless we can find a better way to tap the energy around us .
Depending on fossil fuels to provide us with future energy is just no longer an option.

Those that have a " good education " will tell you that there is no such thing as perpetual motion or free energy .

If you have an atom at absolute zero and then raise the temprature a little ..........what happens to the electrons of that atom?
It seems to me that they start spinning .
The higher the temp ..........the faster that they spin .

Isn't that perpetual motion?

On a hot summer day alot of updrafts create very tall clouds.
water droplets in these clouds moving in close proximity to each other create lighning .

Isn't this free energy?
Isn't it over unity?

Free energy is all around us .
It is not easy to master .....but it is there.

The only reason we have not mastered it yet is because it is still being activly suppressed .

gary

mapsrg · « **Reply #2 on:** January 20, 2008, 05:57:32 AM »

I agree Nikola Tesla was suppressed and he was the man that brought electricity to the people.I also dont think we appreciate the true nature of this force.....the true nature of electricity has not been attained and thats why this forum is so good...we are looking for answers and not constrained by dogma

Elvis Oswald · « **Reply #3 on:** February 09, 2008, 08:46:24 AM »

circuits are built with the input in mind. if the input was different - europe vs america - then the circuit is different.

Telsa saw that mass mattered when building a transformer. 10 turns primary and 20 turns secondary doubled the voltage... but having the mass of material in the two coils matched the resonance between the two. matching the resonance meant 100% transfer... less than matching meant some power loss.
So the mass being equal is is best. And if you have two masses being equal you have 100% transfer of power. But more turns = more voltage and less turns = less voltage.

The only difference is surface area.

more surface area (secondary) = more voltage. Less surface area = less voltage.

and of course - as voltage goes up - amperage goes down.

With less surface area... voltage going down, amperage going up... does the smaller surface cause a resistance?

Some transformers give off heat does a mass-balanced transformer stay cool?

more to come....

sm0ky2 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 10, 2008, 03:46:18 AM »

Quote from: Elvis Oswald on February 09, 2008, 08:46:24 AM

circuits are built with the input in mind. if the input was different - europe vs america - then the circuit is different.

The only difference is surface area.

more surface area (secondary) = more voltage. Less surface area = less voltage.

and of course - as voltage goes up - amperage goes down.

With less surface area... voltage going down, amperage going up... does the smaller surface cause a resistance?

it is not just surface area, its the number of molecules that are allowing for the transfer of electricity. a thinner wire has less molecules being effected by the electromotive force (conduction).
a thicker wire allows for a higher current.

the mass being balanced, there is the same ammount of metal in both wires, one is just stretched out into more turns.

Tesla was not supressed for the knowledge he possessed, he was supressed because of what he DID with that knowledge.
He was not only a super-genius, but also one of the greatest Mad-Scientists this world has ever known. The United States government stopped him from destroying the world, and destroyed his laboratory. The small ammount of knowledge that did manage to escape into the hands of the public, can be used to cause inhumane destruction with simple technology. I believe the supression was done for the good of the free society. - as "unscientific" as that may sound.

a Lot can be learned from the work he did, but there are some things that the general public just should not know.
Much of his technology is hidden in confusing patents, which if any random idiot could understand, we would live in a world of anarchy.

for example, one of his patents teaches one how to destroy any man-made structure with:
(1) the vibrator-motor out of a cell phone or pager (usually free from a decommissioned device)
and
(2) a 20k trim-pot. (30 cents)

there are hundreds of patents publically available, and several more that the U.S. patent office cannot seem to find in their archives (hmm), most of which have hazardous potential like the one i mentioned above..
Others have the potential to destroy the planet we live on.

That being said, Tesla did know a great deal about the behavior of electricity.
But, as for the nature of the substance of electricity....,
i must refer you to another electrical entrepreneur by the name of Edward Leedskalnin. He truly knew the secrets of electricity, and by studying what he tried to teach, you can obtain a full understanding of it's nature.
A subject, only recently being breached by quantum physics, and almost everything he said on that subject, thus far holds true. (be careful with his writings on some other subjects though, as most geniuses are, as was he insane)

Elvis Oswald · « **Reply #5 on:** February 10, 2008, 04:13:56 PM »

Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 10, 2008, 03:46:18 AM

Quote from: Elvis Oswald on February 09, 2008, 08:46:24 AM
circuits are built with the input in mind. if the input was different - europe vs america - then the circuit is different.

The only difference is surface area.

more surface area (secondary) = more voltage. Less surface area = less voltage.

and of course - as voltage goes up - amperage goes down.

With less surface area... voltage going down, amperage going up... does the smaller surface cause a resistance?

it is not just surface area, its the number of molecules that are allowing for the transfer of electricity. a thinner wire has less molecules being effected by the electromotive force (conduction).
a thicker wire allows for a higher current.

the mass being balanced, there is the same ammount of metal in both wires, one is just stretched out into more turns.

Tesla was not supressed for the knowledge he possessed, he was supressed because of what he DID with that knowledge.
He was not only a super-genius, but also one of the greatest Mad-Scientists this world has ever known. The United States government stopped him from destroying the world, and destroyed his laboratory. The small ammount of knowledge that did manage to escape into the hands of the public, can be used to cause inhumane destruction with simple technology. I believe the supression was done for the good of the free society. - as "unscientific" as that may sound.

a Lot can be learned from the work he did, but there are some things that the general public just should not know.
Much of his technology is hidden in confusing patents, which if any random idiot could understand, we would live in a world of anarchy.

for example, one of his patents teaches one how to destroy any man-made structure with:
(1) the vibrator-motor out of a cell phone or pager (usually free from a decommissioned device)
and
(2) a 20k trim-pot. (30 cents)

there are hundreds of patents publically available, and several more that the U.S. patent office cannot seem to find in their archives (hmm), most of which have hazardous potential like the one i mentioned above..
Others have the potential to destroy the planet we live on.

That being said, Tesla did know a great deal about the behavior of electricity.
But, as for the nature of the substance of electricity....,
i must refer you to another electrical entrepreneur by the name of Edward Leedskalnin. He truly knew the secrets of electricity, and by studying what he tried to teach, you can obtain a full understanding of it's nature.
A subject, only recently being breached by quantum physics, and almost everything he said on that subject, thus far holds true. (be careful with his writings on some other subjects though, as most geniuses are, as was he insane)

some things that the general public should not know?

Well - I guess we see that those with the wealth decide who is "general public" and who is not. That is the problem with your thinking on this subject.

Every man and every woman is born into this world just the same as you, me, or the "elite" - it's not up for you or the kings and queens of this world to decide who has what rights.
The Kings and queens have always used wealth and power and technology to enforce their right to rule - and decide who is "general public" and who is not.

The US Government (not "general public") has used their technology to destroy people and to steal resources and to wreck eco-systems around the world. So, perhaps technology is something no one should have... BUT - it is here and someone will have it. It's best that we all have it.

Towns in the US that pass laws that say all people must have a gun... all but eliminate violent crime. I'd say that if all Americans carried the same weapons that the police and military have - we would not have the patriot act and all the executive orders that allow the president to do whatever the f*ck he wants.

So, I say bring it on. We are natural beings living in a natural world and we have a right to interact with it as we please.

sm0ky2 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 10, 2008, 06:18:33 PM »

the "elite" or wealthy have nothing to do with this. They too being deprived of much of Tesla's knowledge.

it has to do with Responsibility, Morality, personal characteristics that many people lack, or simply ignore.

if you give 100 people, each a small button that when pressed would blow up Lake Superior.

how long do you think that lake will be there, before it explodes?

what if you gave this button to 10,000 people??

200 billion people? - there would BE no lake left.

If it pleases me to destroy the world, are you saying i have the "right" to do so? I have to seriously object to such idealism.

the "general public" refers to EVERYONE, not just the lower-class, or the middle-class, or anyone who falls outside of whatever "elite group" you are referencing in your post.

I think you need to understand the full context of what we are discussing here - technologies with destructive potential comparable to that of a nuclear bomb, from devices that are less complex than a Toaster. The majority of mankind is not responsible enough to posses this kind of knowledge. To tell you the truth, i had to struggle with my own self-control on this subject, and i like to think im a "rational person". - Ultimate Power can corrupt one's morality, and 'common sense', but the Prospect of Ultimate Power, can be even more corrupting. I don't personally agree with the supression that has taken place, but i understand the reasoning behind it. Tesla is not the first, nor was he the last that this has happened to. What you or I think about governmental control is irrelevant, its done with everyone in mind, not just the few therefore we have to think about everyone else here, and not just ourselves.
You may like to have full disclosure of the technology, but would you like Tommy to have it? or Susie?
or what about that crazy kid Jim, who blew up the toilet w/ an M-80 in middle school?

I think we should all be greatful that any common idiot who reads Tesla's work, or his available patents cannot understand what he is talking about. Theres enough people that would use these things to cause destruction, that it makes it worth keeping it from those of us who would use it for good. - at least from the perspective of protecting the nation.

The only people that are not "general public", are government employees who have explicit agreements about what they can and cannot do with given information.

This particular case, i do not think they are "hiding" Tesla's knowledge, i suspect that they destroyed much of it, for the good of humanity. Which could explain why the patent office is missing some of his earlier patents from their archives.
He didnt build what he built, just to play with plasma arcs.....

one · « **Reply #7 on:** February 10, 2008, 07:04:21 PM »

Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 10, 2008, 06:18:33 PM

the "elite" or wealthy have nothing to do with this. They too being deprived of much of Tesla's knowledge.

it has to do with Responsibility, Morality, personal characteristics that many people lack, or simply ignore.

if you give 100 people, each a small button that when pressed would blow up Lake Superior.

how long do you think that lake will be there, before it explodes?

what if you gave this button to 10,000 people??

00 billion people? - there would BE no lake left.

If it pleases me to destroy the world, are you saying i have the "right" to do so? I have to seriously object to such idealism.

the "general public" refers to EVERYONE, not just the lower-class, or the middle-class, or anyone who falls outside of whatever "elite group" you are referencing in your post.

I think you need to understand the full context of what we are discussing here - technologies with destructive potential comparable to that of a nuclear bomb, from devices that are less complex than a Toaster. The majority of mankind is not responsible enough to posses this kind of knowledge. To tell you the truth, i had to struggle with my own self-control on this subject, and i like to think im a "rational person". - Ultimate Power can corrupt one's morality, and 'common sense', but the Prospect of Ultimate Power, can be even more corrupting. I don't personally agree with the supression that has taken place, but i understand the reasoning behind it. Tesla is not the first, nor was he the last that this has happened to. What you or I think about governmental control is irrelevant, its done with everyone in mind, not just the few therefore we have to think about everyone else here, and not just ourselves.
You may like to have full disclosure of the technology, but would you like Tommy to have it? or Susie?
or what about that crazy kid Jim, who blew up the toilet w/ an M-80 in middle school?

I think we should all be greatful that any common idiot who reads Tesla's work, or his available patents cannot understand what he is talking about. Theres enough people that would use these things to cause destruction, that it makes it worth keeping it from those of us who would use it for good. - at least from the perspective of protecting the nation.

The only people that are not "general public", are government employees who have explicit agreements about what they can and cannot do with given information.

This particular case, i do not think they are "hiding" Tesla's knowledge, i suspect that they destroyed much of it, for the good of humanity. Which could explain why the patent office is missing some of his earlier patents from their archives.

Smokey

Where are you getting this BS that Teslas work is dangerous ?

Do you have any proof?

Your idea that a cell phone vibrator and a few parts can bring down a building is just plane silly .
Even if a cell phone vibrator was strong enough to set up the necessary vibrations it would take hours or maybe days for those vibrations to build to a high enough level to bring down a building.

Your analogy about blowing up a lake Superior is just as silly .
If you blow up a lake you end up with a big hole in the ground , this hole fills with water and you end up with a lake .

Perhaps if you just climb under a rock or stick your head in the sand all the worlds problems will go away.

As far as I know acid rain is caused in part by our dependence on fossil fuel
Is acid rain going to go away if we do nothing?

Is global warming going to go way if we do nothing?

The magic button to blow up a lake doesn't exist ........ something similar does exist . and we pushed that button a long time ago .
We are destroyiing the earth by depending on burnng fuel for our energy needs .

Tesla was not blacklisted because his work was dangerous . He was blacklisted because he tried to make a away create electricity on a large scale that could not be metered .

ALL new technology has risks

I do agree with you that there are some technology's here that MAY be dangerous .
I agree that some people might try to use these technology's to hurt others if they become common knowledge.

The plane and simple truth is that if we keep on going in the same direction we have been going for the last 200 years ...... our world will be unlivable in the not to distant future.

I for one choose to work to help improve the chances of the earth surviving .

gary

armagdn03 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 11, 2008, 05:37:13 PM »

All things can be used for good or evil, it is up to us in how we use them.

hansvonlieven · « **Reply #9 on:** February 12, 2008, 10:20:27 PM »

G'day all,

My two cents worth in the debate. I know this is not for me to comment upon as I am a conventional engineer but I am doing it anyway. So there.

It is not electricity per se that is not understood by conventional science. Even though we do not know exactly what it is, we have a fair idea what it does.

What is not well understood, and what Tesla was on about is resonance. Two different things really as you can have resonance without electricity.

Understand resonance and you understand Tesla, Keely and a whole host of others that did extraordinary things.

Hans von Lieven

FreeEnergy · « **Reply #10 on:** February 12, 2008, 10:58:01 PM »

smart and dumb people can be just as good or evil. choose wisely.

Elvis Oswald · « **Reply #11 on:** February 15, 2008, 01:09:01 AM »

This wasn't suppose to be a debate over whether to let Tesla's "secrets" loose. But I suppose that a good argument has been raised - though the details are not perfect - and I will respond. Then we will proceed.

If Aretha Franklin can break glass with her voice, and memorex tape can do the same... then I guess (with 30 years to work out the plan) there are terrorists with cassette tapes at all the national treasures.... damn them.

Understanding the laws of nature may be dangerous. But, because they are the laws of nature and they are all around us, then they will not be suppressed. Some will figure them out.

Now you say that "government employees who have explicit agreements about what they can and cannot do with given information" are ok to have this knowledge. And I think you are naive to believe that our best and brightest are the ones who would be in that position... and that they would "use it for the good of humanity"

Nepotism is what we have in this country.. and "in-breeding" hardly produces the best. Maybe pretty showdogs - but they are sickly and demented.

As to what humans do with an advantage - you can look at history and see that any technological advantage in the past has been used to secure power and control.

So let's end this discussion now. The laws of nature are the laws of our creator. Our bodies are built and function by these very laws.
To seek control and suppression of these laws is against nature.

If you are against our god given right to have control over our own minds and our own bodies and the corresponding connections to nature... then this forum is not for you. So stay away!

bw · « **Reply #12 on:** February 15, 2008, 01:36:40 AM »

hansvonlieven you are right, resonance. i think much of the natural energy around us is rooted in resonance and in the vortex. just look up into the heavens, the vortex is everywhere, galaxies, clouds, storms, moving water, all this and more spins and vibrates. tap that and we really tap something. vibes can break things and make big bridges made of steel swing all over. that looks a lot like energy to me. heck it may even be overunity. just how much power does it take to make a vibe anyway. i'd bet it's a whole lot less than any other method known of to bring bridges down. heck, i'd even bet a water vortex might power more than the pump it needed to keep spinning, especially since the pump would not need to lift the h2o to the top of the egg shaped vortex tank. it could enter the tank well below the water level. i just think the vortex using the water weight may even push a couple of paddles around and power an alternator enough to keep the batteries powering the pump fully charged. imagine that.

sm0ky2 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 15, 2008, 02:09:36 AM »

i like to think of resonance, like addition. 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 +1 ..... and so on as long as the 'source' keeps giving energy to the system at the right time.

after a relatively short time, you build up power levels far beyond what the source is capable of creating without resonance. Knowing this, resonance should be incorporated into every design we can possibly concieve of, - to improve performance. at least thats my thoughts on it.

So, anything which can/does include resonance, "should be" more powerful than its identicle counterpart that does not include resonance. - providing that the resonance is constructive, not destructive, with respect to the power levels you are measuring.

Elvis Oswald · « **Reply #14 on:** February 15, 2008, 05:09:56 AM »

Speaking of resonance... thank you hans... let's get into that.

My point about the coils of the same mass was heading that way... but I had smoked a little too much I'm afraid...

You can have a primary and a secondary coil - and you can have 20 turns in the primary and 40 turns in the secondary - but you don't have to have the same material or the same mass. But of course, you'd want to... because if they were the same material and the same mass then they would resonate.
My point was to say that a perfect transformer is one that both primary and secondary are resonant. This can be achieved with the same composition of material and mass in both coils.

I brought this up - because it seems to point to something about the nature of electricity. And thank you Hans, for pointing out that engineers do indeed have formulas that work to show how electricity acts... and of course it acts within that pen.

composition and mass make up resonance... guitar strings are different sizes...
And resonance (at least) optimizes the transfer of the force we call electricity.

What can we deduce from that?

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