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Author Topic: Meyer type WFC - from design and fabrication to test and development.  (Read 71833 times)

pcmd

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Re: Meyer type WFC - from design and fabrication to test and development.
« Reply #60 on: January 11, 2008, 03:37:05 PM »
Farrah Day,

I am currently doing a lot of research on electrolysis, Hydrogen Generation and WFCs online.  I have a decent background in Electronic Engineering but am a little rusty.  I am glad to finally see someone is taking a scientific approach to this whole subject.   It is almost impossible to weed through the infomercial type web sites without being disillusioned.   I must admit the lab you have put together is quite impressive.  I have began the process of setting up my own lab recently. It is a slow process acquiring all the hardware needed but I am almost there.  I am also gathering information schematics and documentation in preparation for my own test WFC.  I have some rather interesting  questions that will need to be answered much later on regarding Automobile O2 sensor modifications or using modified timing and Air/Fuel mapping in a cars ECM.  But that is much later on..... 

Thanks again and keep up the great work

Tacmatricx

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Re: Meyer type WFC - from design and fabrication to test and development.
« Reply #61 on: January 11, 2008, 05:06:23 PM »
Hi Farrah,

My bad on the Cathode/Anode mixup... I totally agree with the statement on wet electrolytic capacitors... Dielectric breakdown is usually closely followed by a pop or boom depending on the enclosure and how catastrophic the breakdown was.

One think that I think we have to consider is the state of the dielectric in our WFC's... In a capacitor, The only way a current can pass through it is if it is alternating/pulsing. Otherwise we get a DC voltage potential buildup and discharge. A WFC can function as a capacitor based on your findings (with the exception of not being able to fully discharge it because of the charged ion's clinging to the cell and not being able to be discharged... If I got that right?). However if we are aiming to build up a non conductive dielectric on the cells and this buildup increases gas production... How can putting the inner tube into a condom (as mentioned earlier) be dissimilar to a non conductive plating on the tubes.

I find this really odd that we are all trying to buildup a layer of non conductive material on the tubes (We all know this works and increases production while decreasing current) but placing an insulator between the conditioned tubes ceases all production???

There MUST be something in the white buildup that functions completely UNLIKE a standard dielectric... I would imagine if the inner tube was inside a condom filled with water... It would still act as a capacitor holding a charge and passing pulsing/alternating current? So why does insulating it still allow it to be a capacitor but not a WFC if the same current (alternating/Pulsing) is passing in both scenarios? Can you form the same coating on other metals?

Sorry to add more confusion to this topic but am I the only one finding this totally strange?

I am also grateful for someone putting rational thought and experimentation towards this topic... I am tired of the Mayers style BS that I am forced to consume on a regular basis... too many people are thinking "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit..." sigh

Thank you Farrah! Keep up the fight!

Farrah Day

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Re: Meyer type WFC - from design and fabrication to test and development.
« Reply #62 on: January 11, 2008, 07:46:58 PM »
Hi Tac

I understand that Duranza tried coating the cathode with teflon and gas production was nil. This I think would be the same as the condom scenario. Any such dielectric would break down permanantly once sufficient voltage was achieved, and thereafter be useless. Only a self-healing chemical dielectric would be able to fully recover and reform - this was one of the favourable things that wet electrolytic capacitors had going for them.

I'm as mystified by it all as the next person, but feel it's only a matter of time before we get to the bottom of it now.  I'm still of the opinion that it's something to do with a self-healing property of the dielectric formed on ss - whether it be the chromium oxide or the white coating - which I'm fairly confident now, is indeed calcium hydroxide.

It is possible to charge a large capacitor up to a dangerous level with just a 9 volt battery.  The capacitor would show 9 volts, but if very large could store a massive charge.  Shorting the capacitor would produce a large spark as it tries to discharge instantly.  Capacitors are often misunderstood, which can lead to confusion.  If you charge a small capacitor up with a 9 volt battery, it will charge up to a potential difference of  9 volts, the same as a much larger capacitor. But, unlike the small capacitor, the larger one can store a lot more energy as it takes a lot more charge for it to reach the battery's 9 volt potential difference.

I think we must have a similar scenario once we build up our insulating (or highly resistive) coating.  The coating, even if not a true dielectric, will create such a high resistance that charges building up on the electrodes cannot fully discharge through the water between pulses. Hence over time the charges on the electrodes, (even from a very low voltage) can build up to a point where the breakdown voltage is exceeded.  Once this happens we get a rapid ionisation and hence much gas production, until the charges on the electrodes reduce sufficiently enough for the dielectric to reform.  Of course all this can be happening in a fraction of a second.

Hoping I'll know more when I've finished conditioning my electrodes and can do a few tests. 

Kator01

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Re: Meyer type WFC - from design and fabrication to test and development.
« Reply #63 on: January 11, 2008, 08:29:07 PM »
Hello Farrah Day,

I once and awhile drop by here I am really confident that this approach you present here will bring success. Now I will bring to your attention something almost everyone who has experimented  with this white-stuff-coating hase overlooked. This makes all of the confusion about capacitor-line behaviour  and apparent contradictions regarding inner resistance etc.

I do not give a  complete answer here because I do not know it all - but I will ask you a very simple question :

Just imagine the conditioning-process . As you let the cell run at 15 volt and 0.5 Ampere two subprocesses happen at the same time.

Question : How does the first calcium-carbonate-layer forming on the steelplate-surface look like if you start conditioning for the first time  ? Does this layer completely seal the steel-surface ? If this is so can then  H2 bubbles rise once this first layer is formed ?

What do you think ?


Kator

Tacmatricx

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Re: Meyer type WFC - from design and fabrication to test and development.
« Reply #64 on: January 11, 2008, 09:32:01 PM »
Thanks for the reply Farrah,

A 9VDC battery does have enough "power" to stop your heart or cause serious damage but remember V=IR... It all depends on the resistance in the circuit. If you use a step up transformer to charge a 300V capacitor until the battery is drained... Because it will be 300VDC the resistance of your body will allow a higher current to flow than a 9VDC voltage and it could stop your heart (depending if the fastest way to the other terminal crosses your heart). Current kills... thats why we survive static electricity shocks and lightning strikes (some people).

This is my problem with the dielectric breakdown theory... If I took a 12VDC electric motor that was rated at 1A. I then started the motor and recorded the actual current used as 0.2A. If I tried to start the motor with only 0.2A... I can bet it would try... but probably not go anywhere because it does not have enough current to break the startup requirement. If I added a capacitor in parallel to the motor, the current would build over time and I may have a running motor in a few seconds.

If I apply that to the dielectric theory, it works... The current builds up over time and I get a discharge which is a function of voltage and current (Watts) to give me a spark. The more current I give it, the more often I get a spark or actually maintain a spark.

If this is the case and we apply it to the WFC... More current caused by the dielectric breakdown would give us more gas... But current limiting is the whole idea... we are giving it less current and trying to restrict every way of stopping the current from flowing. We're using high resistance water, high resistance stainless steel, white coatings, reversed bifilar chokes, etc... and we are getting results!

It's all about voltage potential, which does not cause a dielectric to break down without current. If the dielectric breakdown is the key. Then the current flow would be directly proportional to the gas generated (goes along with Newtons law). If we restrict the current, this should prevent cell discharge from occurring as often as it would if we allowed current flow?

If Dielectric breakdown was directly proportional to cell discharges which were again directly proportional to current flow... I doubt any of these cells would be working in OU?

I think you may be onto something with this tho:

"I think we must have a similar scenario once we build up our insulating (or highly resistive) coating.  The coating, even if not a true dielectric, will create such a high resistance that charges building up on the electrodes cannot fully discharge through the water between pulses. Hence over time the charges on the electrodes, (even from a very low voltage) can build up to a point where the breakdown voltage is exceeded.  Once this happens we get a rapid ionisation and hence much gas production, until the charges on the electrodes reduce sufficiently enough for the dielectric to reform.  Of course all this can be happening in a fraction of a second."

Please don't let me stop you, I'm itching for results too!

Farrah Day

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Re: Meyer type WFC - from design and fabrication to test and development.
« Reply #65 on: January 12, 2008, 01:47:17 AM »
Hi Kator, nice to hear from you again.

The build up of white coating is gradual and appears initially as a light dusting of powder, but it does appear uniform. Indeed if you rub it with your fingers when dry it will easily come off, so does not appear to be chemically bonded to the surface - more like just attracted to it. It may be that it's not until it dries out that it actually even adheres to itself.  If you wipe it off, the ss underneath looks clean and healthy.  Current for same voltage through cell did reduce over time, indicating that cell resistance is building up - unless this is due to polarisation.

Hi Tac, like you stated, it's current not voltage that kills.  When testing high voltage ccts at college, we were always taught to have one arm behind our back so that if we caught a shock, the current would travel down our body to ground, rather than across or chests (and heart) to chassis earth!

Now, I don't tend to be too popular on any of the other forums partly because they see me as an arrogant 'know-it-all' Sheila, but mainly because I have a low tolerance for idiots and openly state this. This forum in general seems to exhibit a much higher level of intelligence and understanding of science, and the last thing I want to do is offend anyone.  From my experience of other forums I know I can become unpopular by my bluntness, by talking down to folks or talking above their heads.  The trouble is you just don't know what level the person you are talking to is at, so at times it can be difficult not to unintentionally offend - you never know if you're conversing with a competent professor or a spotty teenager who left school at 14!

So, my apologies if I appear to talk down to you or anyone else at times.

One problem I find with the science that we are taught a school is that it's often very simplified, which means that when we need to use it in practice, it all of a sudden becomes far more involved than we were led to believe. For example, we are told that we get oxygen and hydrogen evolved at the electrodes if we run a current through water containing an electrolyte. But the full equations for the reactions of both the water and the electrolyte are not usually given - and who of us was told why the electrolyte did not react at the electrodes? We are simply told that the electrolyte allows more current to flow.  In truth, even this simple electrolysis is far more complex than that.

Meyer supposedly had all the current limiting devices to reduce current through the whole cct including the wfc. In reality I can't see this being the case.  The current can still be limited through the electronics even if we have high current surges through the water, because we should have an excess of charges on the electrodes and current limiting provided by the inductor.

The relationship between current, voltage and charge here can also be difficult to grasp.  It is possible to put a high voltage pulse across the capacitor, yet have no charge on the plates, because the capacitor will take a given time to charge up.  The voltage given on any capacitor indicates the point at which dielectric breakdown is a strong possibility, so in theory, we could cause dielectric breakdown with next-to-no current flow at all!  Remember that in a normal capacitor no current actually flows between the plates.

This I think is the essence of the Meyer system.  My problem with this is that when the dielectric (or water) does break down under the potential, then there is little or no current flow through the wfc to cause ionisation.  But then Meyer, I don't think, ever mentions ionisation as the cause of gas production.  Maybe it is all about breaking the clumping bonds of water with a very high potential and we're all coming at this from the wrong angle with conditioning and all. Problem here tho' is that I'm not sure the science to explain the reaction exists - at least in any written form.

Probably pay to keep an open mind on all this and not be too single-minded on any aspects. Afterall, the best the conditioning seems to offer is 3x Faraday. Meyer supposedly had 10x this.




pcmd

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Re: Meyer type WFC - from design and fabrication to test and development.
« Reply #66 on: January 12, 2008, 02:28:33 AM »
Farrah,

I am really enjoying the thread that is going here.  I just popped over to Youtube and watched the Peter Lindemann Video and its is all starting to make sense to me.  I could not see how Meyer claimed his circuit was resonant.  The fact the there is a Diode in the output section of his supposedly resonant LC circuit totally negates any possibility of a cascade being formed.  I agree with Peter that this is a fairly standard DC charging of a dielectric media that achieves a catastrophic failure.  It may be that Stan Meyer may have believed that he was causing the water or the electrodes to achieve some sort of resonance that caused the extreme breakdown of the molecular bond of the H and O.  Or  he may have known all along but was spinning a tale for our amusement. 

Here is the definition of Dielectric Failure: The failure of an element in a dielectric circuit that exists when an insulating element becomes conducting. 
In the case of the Meyer WFC the pulsing DC waveform gradually increases the potential difference in the capacitor to such a level that the dielectric fails and a enormous amount of current is generated.  This in turn liberates massive quantities of H and O.  The duty cycle adjustment allows for the recharging of the capacitor.  I will have to do some serious testing to see the same results but I feel I now know a lot more about the Meyer design.  Don't get me wrong this is a absolutely ingenious way to generate large quantities of H/O.  What I am trying  to focus on is how to regulate the gas production in a cct like this. 

Also I found a great explanation about the charging effects of the WFC . 
Here is the URL.  http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/ATG/lo-iestru.html


PCMD
« Last Edit: January 12, 2008, 03:09:27 AM by pcmd »

Tacmatricx

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Re: Meyer type WFC - from design and fabrication to test and development.
« Reply #67 on: January 12, 2008, 05:27:05 AM »
Hey Pcmd,

Please take everything I say as a grain of salt as I have yet to actually build a cell and test it but here are my observations this far:

1) If resonance has nothing to do with gas production, why does every cell have a very specific maximum gas production frequency?

2) If resonance has nothing to do with it, why does every WFC have different ideal frequencies? I notice that the tube lengths are different in most of these setups.

3) if resonance has nothing to do with it, why did Meyers cut pitch slots in his outer tubes to raise their pitch to match that of the inner tubes?

These are only my observations and are not an attack on your ideas... If you have thoughts on these to correct me I would be happy to be corrected?

Thanks,

HeairBear

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Re: Meyer type WFC - from design and fabrication to test and development.
« Reply #68 on: January 12, 2008, 09:34:19 AM »
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not to be confused with heavy water.

The hardness of the water results in a calcification

Hard water is water that has a high mineral content (contrast with soft water). Hard water usually consists of calcium (Ca2+), magnesium (Mg2+) ions, and possibly other dissolved compounds such as bicarbonates and sulfates. Calcium usually enters the water as either calcium carbonate (CaCO3), in the form of limestone and chalk, or calcium sulfate (CaSO4), in the form of other mineral deposits. The predominant source of magnesium is dolomite (CaMg(CO3)2). Hard water is generally not harmful.

The simplest way to determine the hardness of water is the lather/froth test: soap or toothpaste, when agitated, lathers easily in soft water but not in hard water. More exact measurements of hardness can be obtained through a wet titration. The total water 'hardness' (including both Ca2+ and Mg2+ ions) is read as parts per million or weight/volume (mg/L) of calcium carbonate (CaCO3) in the water. Although water hardness usually only measures the total concentrations of calcium and magnesium (the two most prevalent, divalent metal ions), iron, aluminium, and manganese may also be present at elevated levels in some geographical locations.


The most abundant isotope, 40Ca, has a nucleus of 20 protons and 20 neutrons. This is the heaviest stable isotope of any element which has equal numbers of protons and neutrons. In supernova explosions, calcium is formed from the reaction of carbon with various numbers of alpha particles (helium nuclei), until the most common calcium isotope (containing 10 helium nuclei) has been synthesized. Calcium is the seventh most common element, by mass, in Earth's oceans.
..................................................................................

Chemically calcium is reactive and moderately soft for a metal (though harder than lead, it can be cut with a knife with difficulty). It is a silvery metallic element that must be extracted by electrolysis from a fused salt like calcium chloride.[1] Once produced, it rapidly forms a grey-white oxide and nitride coating when exposed to air. It is somewhat difficult to ignite, in character rather like magnesium, but when lit, the metal burns in air with a brilliant high-intensity red light. Calcium metal reacts with water, evolving hydrogen gas at a rate rapid enough to be noticeable (unlike its sister magnesium) but not fast enough at room temperature to generate much heat. Part of the slowness of the calcium-water reaction results from the metal being partly protected by insoluble white calcium hydroxide. In water solutions of acids where the salt is water soluble, calcium reacts vigorously.

Calcium salts are colorless from any contribution of the calcium, and ionic solutions of calcium (Ca2+) are colorless as well. Many calcium salts are not soluble in water. When in solution, the calcium ion to the human taste varies remarkably, being reported as mildly salty, sour, "mineral like" or even "soothing." It is apparent that many animals can taste, or develop a taste, for calcium, and use this sense to detect the mineral in salt licks or other sources. [2]. In human nutrition, soluble calcium salts may be added to tart juices without much effect to the average palate.

Calcium is the fifth most abundant element by mass in the human body, where it is a common cellular ionic messenger with many functions, and serves also as a structural element in bone. It is the relatively high atomic-numbered calcium in the skeleton which causes bone to be radio-opaque. Of the human body's solid components after drying (as for example, after cremation), about a third of the total mass is the approximately one kilogram of calcium which composes the average skeleton (the remainder being mostly phosphorus and oxygen).

I wonder if this white coating has any piezoelectric properties?


Cheers!

Farrah Day

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Re: Meyer type WFC - from design and fabrication to test and development.
« Reply #69 on: January 12, 2008, 03:12:16 PM »
Hi PC

glad to hear you're coming on board. Hopefully we'll be comparing notes shortly.

That link you provided above is a good example of just how more involved this electrochemistry we are dealing with can be.  It is plain to see - and as I mentioned above - that it is all too easy to over simplify things.  Once we delve properly into the atomic chemistry and physics involved, things are clearly more complicated.  Add to this the fact that most of us are amateurs and the science we are dealing with is not in itself fully understood even by scientists and it's clear we have a lot of hurdles to overcome!

Kator

I've added a photo of the build up on my large test cell.  It is quite a substantial coating and if I look closely I can see that the calcium compound has crystalized somewhat as it has dried.  This gives a rough, uneven appearance to the surface.  The white calcium compound can be seen clearly on the raised centre threaded bar and nut, but it is also coating the cathode side of all the tubes.  This was after just 8 hours at around 0.5 amp, in 2 litre of tap water with a flat teaspoon of calcium carbonate added.   I don't think anyone has achieved this amount of coating at this current in such a short time.  No sign of any flaking, but under the same conditions I can probably create a more stable coating by taking the cell out of the solution after shorter periods of time and letting it dry out more often.

Tac

With reference to your resonance questions, I'd say that it's all down to the fact that the term 'resonance' is a common misnomer.

There can be values and frequencies at which our cells might perform to maximum efficiency, but it need not necessarily be at any resonant frequency.  In our case we might find that a pulsed frequency of, say 14KHz, gated at a particular frequency provides the best results as it creates the right conditions for our purpose.  I think the better term is 'sweet spot'. Simply the pulsed, gated frequency at which all the elements of our wfc's come together to perform to their best.

As every cell would provide a different capacitance, no two cells would have the same optimum working frequency.

I've seen one photo of the cut rectangular slot on one of Meyer's tubes, but given everything we know about Meyer, I'm not inclined to read too much into this at present.  If you wanted the tubes to physically resonate then it would make sense to have the outer tube balanced to the inner so one frequency would resonate both tubes. Problem here is that we once again come to the fact that the cct can't actually resonate. That said, knowing Meyer, it might simply be that he had run out of tubes without the slots!


pcmd

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Re: Meyer type WFC - from design and fabrication to test and development.
« Reply #70 on: January 12, 2008, 04:50:49 PM »
Farrah,

I agree that the boundaries of Electronics, Chemistry and Physics are being crossed.  I would really be helpful if we could recruit some professional chemists and physicist's from some colleges to help answer some of the questions we all have.  This could make for a interesting  thesis for some students.   

Kator,

I was wondering has anyone sent a sample (conditioned plate) to a lab for a chemical analysis?  Is everyone certain the the white coating is a precipitate from the electrolyte solution or is it something else?  I read another document I have and if stated that soaking the flat plate electrodes in a Potassium Hydroxide solution for a couple days" would condition electrode, another method mentioned was to condition the electrodes by repeated short periods of electrolysis. 
I wonder what the chemical composition of the skin layer is?

Tac,

I understand that the frequency of the oscillation plays an important role in the charging effect and as I have not built my test unit either I am only stating what I know to be true (from books).  The L/C output section of the WFC cct could not resonate due to the diode installed as the waveform would be clipped.

In Dave Lawton's circuit the diode was installed to protect the MOSFET and is in parallel with the input to the transformers primary winding.

Excerpt from Website:
Signal diodes are also used with relays to protect transistors and integrated circuits from the brief high voltage produced when the relay coil is switched off. See Diode link below.

I am not sure but one could possibly generate some physical oscillations or in this case possibly reverberation of the Cathode and Anode by tuning the frequency injected to the resonant or a fundamental frequency of the electrodes.  I suppose one could strike the cathodes and or anodes monitor the frequency with an oscilloscope. I agree with Farrah that matching resonant frequencies between the electrodes may be possible but could prove to be difficult. Also by inserting the rubber spacers in between the Cath / Anode the resonant frequency would be dampened.  Its like placing and rubber washer on a tuning fork.  You might get a little tone but is would not reverberate very long.

Some Links
L / C resonance
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_6/3.html

Diodes
http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/components/diode.htm
section on small signal is applicable



Keep up the great work

PCMD

Farrah Day

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Re: Meyer type WFC - from design and fabrication to test and development.
« Reply #71 on: January 12, 2008, 06:20:14 PM »
PC

Remember that the Lawton cct produces pulsed dc directly at its output, therefore no blocking diode is required. Meyers cct uses a blocking diode because he was producing dc pulses from an ac input. The diode in Lawtons cct does indeed protect the mosfet, but his cct does not employ a transformer as such. He is experimenting with bifilar wound inductors in an attempt to improve energy efficiency.  Looks quite promising from the read up. For anyone that has not seen this, here are the links:

http://panaceauniversity.org/D14.pdf

http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Water_Fuel_Cell

After my recent electrolyte experiments, I'm 99% sure that it's calcium hydroxide deposited on the electrode, formed by the reaction of calcium carbonate in the solution.  Google calcium carbonate and you will find the reaction in water gives calcium hydroxide.

pcmd

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Re: Meyer type WFC - from design and fabrication to test and development.
« Reply #72 on: January 12, 2008, 08:19:30 PM »
Farrah,

To elaborate on my last post.


I am sorry I forgot to state in my reply to Tac I was referring to fig 1.1 (see Below) of  the Meyer voltage intensifier circuit. 

>>The L/C output section of the WFC cct could not resonate due to the diode installed,  as the waveform would be clipped.

Also My comments about the Lawton cct based on the 3rd schematic in D14.pdf  that showed the 1n1007  Diode in parallel with the primary winding the biflar inductor.  I seems to me to be transformer since he has matched 100 turns of 22 AWG wire around a ferrite core.  I wonder if he is going to use this to step up the voltage in the future?  It seems a logical path forward from my point of view.

Thanks for the clarification about the calcium hydroxide. 

PCMD


Farrah Day

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Re: Meyer type WFC - from design and fabrication to test and development.
« Reply #73 on: January 12, 2008, 09:32:42 PM »
Hi PC

It's not a transformer in the schematic, and if you look closer you'll find that the diode is not actually in parallel with it.
Neither is it there to up the voltage or isolate the cell. What it is, is a Tesla-like bifilar wound inductor. 

Depending on how it is connected, bifilar wound inductors are said, by Tesla, to be able to store many times the energy of standard inductors.  They can also be connected in such a way as to negate their inductance altogether.  In sensitive ccts, some low value wire-wound resistors that would otherwise provide high inductive reactance at certain frequencies are bifilar wound in order to negate the self-inductance and just leave the very low resistance of the wire itself. 

Lawton has wired them as per Tesla, and apparently sees spikes of many kilovolts across his cell from this arrangement. I believe he is still experimenting and at the time was as mystified as the rest of us as to what exactly was occuring.  He may have made more progress by now, but, like most people that seem to make advances, he's gone silent and not made an appearance on the forums for a long time.

Hope this helps.

Praktik

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Re: Meyer type WFC - from design and fabrication to test and development.
« Reply #74 on: January 12, 2008, 11:10:23 PM »

Quote
My results were 200 LPH (Liter per hour) for 12-18 watts, or 16 LPH per watt
Ravi's results were 2.74 LPH per watt

Hi UncleFester,

great work with very interesting results !

Please answer this questions :

1. the circuit which was used ? Is it from here ? http://panaceauniversity.org/D14.pdf?
2. How about posting  any photo of your small cell with 6 tubes ?
3. can you explain the fundamental news in your electrolysis ?

Regards

Praktik