Author Topic: THEORY on TPU energy scource (Read 173419 times)

Magluvin · « **Reply #150 on:** November 07, 2016, 02:08:04 AM »

Ok. New page. I resized the pic.

Mags

Turbo · « **Reply #151 on:** November 07, 2016, 08:05:32 AM »

It would have been better if you had tried what's on it.

Quote from: Magluvin on November 07, 2016, 01:53:34 AM

3 The way I see it,

Mags

Isn't the way it is.
I am simply going to rest my case once again until somebody shows me some wire, in stead of whining about having to move their screen.
Too bad... i was sure it was finally going to happen but i was wrong.
I will not join a discussion theorizing regardless the title of this topic, which is about the source of energy not the thing itself.

Magluvin · « **Reply #152 on:** November 07, 2016, 08:59:16 AM »

No matter. Have some coils to wind to try some things. Whether it is EmJunkie or you, Ive seen this configuration many times before.

When one first looks at it, as shown in most configurations, the outer coils are the primary and the middle coil is the secondary, the first thought that may come to mind is that the opposing outer coils may null induction effects on the center coil. Maybe that is why some people just stir away assuming impossibility, etc.
Going with my first assumptions that you said I was close on, well that is where Im aiming to see if Im correct, close or what ever.

It all has also lead me to a design on a toroid. 4 coils. 2 that are wound opposing with equal gaps between ends. And within those end spaces will be the secondaries. Just thinking to make use of the other ends of the secondaries.

I can see that with either like wound outer coils, or opposing wound outer coils, with inputs to each accordingly so their fields oppose in the middle, that they can induce the middle secondary. And I also see that when the sec fields affect the primaries, that interaction should be virtually nulled as one outer primary will be induced by the sec current opposite to its input, and the other outer primary induced to say help the input, so if the 2 outer coils are in series so that their fields oppose, the sec would not affect the primary input as it is negated for reasons said in this long ass sentence.

So is this the lenzless way?

Mags

Turbo · « **Reply #153 on:** November 07, 2016, 02:00:28 PM »

You are still holding on to what you have learned in the past and try to use it as a template to explain away what should happen.
The best approach is really to try and see what happens, and to put aside all these idea's you are currently talking about.
Keep in mind that when you fire a short pulse into one of the coil sections, or charge up one of the coil sections, and then switch off the powersource, you will observe the inductive kickback.
As i suppose you know the voltage from the inductive kickback theoretically rises to infinity.
You are good at explaining the magnetic field components between these coil sections, but what can you say about this high voltage spike that travels about this one wire setup, and certainly has an effect on the other coil sections?
Do you not realize that this spike does not see or encounters the closed loop (textbook) resistance.
This is also why you can not use separate coils they have to be connected to distribute the high voltage and pherhaps concideration of RF like components.
Steven mentiones a (high) voltage source and a piece of wire.
This voltage source could be a battery or charged capacitor in the early experiments, however it could very well be a charged coil as you will find out when you start trying these things, and if you think about it is a lot easier to get to very high voltages with a charged coil, as opposed to a bank of batteries/ or dangerously charged capacitors.
There is a reason that there are two coil sections at the outsides of the middle section.
And this reason is not magnetic so i suggest you drop the dynamo or generator view on this thing, and especially not to tweak the design to suit your own idea's this is very important.

Vortex1 · « **Reply #154 on:** November 07, 2016, 03:45:29 PM »

Best to let Turbo lead here as he is a very smart guy with lots of experience in researching and testing TPU methods. He was there in the very beginning in 2006 when the videos first surfaced and has spent countless hours experimenting along these lines.

In other words, he knows what works and what doesn't and I'm sure he doesn't want to waste his time explaining to us why certain things won't work.

Let's not superimpose our ideas on Turbo's offering, rather, let's give him the floor and the time to explain his approach to the design.

Regards, Vortex1

verpies · « **Reply #155 on:** November 07, 2016, 04:24:46 PM »

Quote from: Vortex1 on November 07, 2016, 03:45:29 PM

Let's not superimpose our ideas on Turbo's offering, rather, let's give him the floor and the time to explain his approach to the design.

Let's

What unusual event happens when a wire is pulsed like this?

Vortex1 · « **Reply #156 on:** November 07, 2016, 04:58:10 PM »

Quote from: verpies on November 07, 2016, 04:24:46 PM

Let's

What unusual event happens when a wire is pulsed like this?

I don't see any pulsing of the wire. I see a DC condition and a continuous current flow without interruption. If there were at least switches and / or a timing diagram we could talk of pulsing.

I could theorize regarding what happens when the circuit connections to the batteries are first made, but then I wold have to qualify the sequence of the "makes" since there are two. Same for the sequence of "circuit breaks"

Or perhaps there is one battery connected at all times and the other is pulsed. So we have a few possible combinations, not to mention the pulsing repetition rates, pulse shapes and duty cycle involved.

I was hoping Turbo would expand his diagram with a further explanation rather than leave us to a myriad of guessing possibilities, hence what I wrote.

I have some ideas on the sketch, but they may not be correct, and are not clear to me at this time. So I choose to defer to Turbo to clarify, or someone that already knows for sure (not guessing) how this circuit applies to the TPU.

So, are you asking the question because you already know or because you would like someone to answer?

If you have already the understanding and experimental or theoretical proof of what Turbo is getting at, by all means, discuss or demonstrate.

Kind Regards, Vortex1

tinman · « **Reply #157 on:** November 07, 2016, 04:59:57 PM »

Quote from: verpies on November 07, 2016, 04:24:46 PM

Let's

What unusual event happens when a wire is pulsed like this?

When both end coils are energized at the same time,the center coil will have double the voltage across it to that of each end coil-if the turn ratio of all three coils is the same.
It will also produce twice the current to that which is flowing through each end coil.

This of course depends on the pulsing/timing,and stuff like that

Brad

Turbo · « **Reply #158 on:** November 07, 2016, 06:59:03 PM »

Quote from: Vortex1 on November 07, 2016, 04:58:10 PM

I don't see any pulsing of the wire. I see a DC condition and a continuous current flow without interruption. If there were at least switches and / or a timing diagram we could talk of pulsing.

I could theorize regarding what happens when the circuit connections to the batteries are first made, but then I wold have to qualify the sequence of the "makes" since there are two. Same for the sequence of "circuit breaks"

Or perhaps there is one battery connected at all times and the other is pulsed. So we have a few possible combinations, not to mention the pulsing repetition rates, pulse shapes and duty cycle involved.

I was hoping Turbo would expand his diagram with a further explanation rather than leave us to a myriad of guessing possibilities, hence what I wrote.

I have some ideas on the sketch, but they may not be correct, and are not clear to me at this time. So I choose to defer to Turbo to clarify, or someone that already knows for sure (not guessing) how this circuit applies to the TPU.

So, are you asking the question because you already know or because you would like someone to answer?

If you have already the understanding and experimental or theoretical proof of what Turbo is getting at, by all means, discuss or demonstrate.

Kind Regards, Vortex1

It was only a quick sketch i drawn to show the multiple electron flow in a single wire.
I will attach some more images maybe it becomes a bit more clear.

In the AC example you will see continuous mixed induction, as you know the fields have to be moving to induce in wire, by frequency offset beat or center frequency's can be generated¹
In the DC example, if current does not vary, there will be no induction because the fields are not in motion, high voltage phenomena will arise upon field collapse, and these can be 'crashed' into each other, and crashed into each other with a slight offset to create a slow or fast moving beat or center 'product' ²

This is relatively simple, the more difficult part lies in the understanding that if you have a piece of wire and a voltage source you can only generate one kick.
The effect is electrostatic in nature, and the wire acts like the plate of a capacitor and it will retain its charge so you will see just one kick upon first contact and after that no more kicks will arise.
The wire has said to become polarized.
To generate another kick, the polarity of the voltage source, has to be reversed.
Upon making contact with the reversed voltage source a stronger kick will be observed.
This is because the process is additive, the first contact incorporated a neutrally charged wire, whereas the second contact incorporated a opposed charged wire.
By alternating the voltage source more then one kicks can be generated but it will be a slow manual process if you do this by hand.
The solution lies in the proposed schematic.
One coil will impose a high voltage spike upon the center section, whilst the other coil can impose a reversed polarity spike upon the center section.
This makes it possible to set up high speed high voltage alternating switching that is needed to keep the kicks going.
The inductive kickback can be recovered and reused ³ but with one additional feature, namely that it generated a kick along the way.
I am sure i made some mistakes in the schematics but i hope you will be able to gain some vision.
Keep in mind that the original experiments were done with triode tubes where you would normally use one section of a double triode to generate only half of the output, and the other half for the other part or polarity of the output, and that your output transformer, or speaker voice coil, or electrostatic speaker, would be the center coil section, in which the two half reverse polarized waves will be combined.
The classic way of doing that does not have the floating points as shown in the images below, because the triode feeds off just one high voltage supply, and in that case it will only represent a classic (closed loop) transformer setup.
Steven ended up using the filament transformer in combination with the high voltage transformer to generate the effects.
The fact that he was able to discover it that way amazes me to this day.
I'm sure this all sounds like abracadabra at this stage but i will try to clarify all of these things soon.
For the setup it can be as simple as 3 relay coils in series.

Vortex1 · « **Reply #159 on:** November 07, 2016, 09:12:12 PM »

Quote from: Turbo on November 07, 2016, 06:59:03 PM

It was only a quick sketch i drawn to show the multiple electron flow in a single wire.
I will attach some more images maybe it becomes a bit more clear.

In the AC example you will see continuous mixed induction, as you know the fields have to be moving to induce in wire, by frequency offset beat or center frequency's can be generated¹
In the DC example, if current does not vary, there will be no induction because the fields are not in motion, high voltage phenomena will arise upon field collapse, and these can be 'crashed' into each other, and crashed into each other with a slight offset to create a slow or fast moving beat or center 'product' ²

This is relatively simple, the more difficult part lies in the understanding that if you have a piece of wire and a voltage source you can only generate one kick.
The effect is electrostatic in nature, and the wire acts like the plate of a capacitor and it will retain its charge so you will see just one kick upon first contact and after that no more kicks will arise.
The wire has said to become polarized.
To generate another kick, the polarity of the voltage source, has to be reversed.
Upon making contact with the reversed voltage source a stronger kick will be observed.
This is because the process is additive, the first contact incorporated a neutrally charged wire, whereas the second contact incorporated a opposed charged wire.
By alternating the voltage source more then one kicks can be generated but it will be a slow manual process if you do this by hand.
The solution lies in the proposed schematic.
One coil will impose a high voltage spike upon the center section, whilst the other coil can impose a reversed polarity spike upon the center section.
This makes it possible to set up high speed high voltage alternating switching that is needed to keep the kicks going.
The inductive kickback can be recovered and reused ³ but with one additional feature, namely that it generated a kick along the way.
I am sure i made some mistakes in the schematics but i hope you will be able to gain some vision.
Keep in mind that the original experiments were done with triode tubes where you would normally use one section of a double triode to generate only half of the output, and the other half for the other part or polarity of the output, and that your output transformer, or speaker voice coil, or electrostatic speaker, would be the center coil section, in which the two half reverse polarized waves will be combined.
The classic way of doing that does not have the floating points as shown in the images below, because the triode feeds off just one high voltage supply, and in that case it will only represent a classic (closed loop) transformer setup.
Steven ended up using the filament transformer in combination with the high voltage transformer to generate the effects.
The fact that he was able to discover it that way amazes me to this day.
I'm sure this all sounds like abracadabra at this stage but i will try to clarify all of these things soon.
For the setup it can be as simple as 3 relay coils in series.

Dear Turbo

Thank you much for your input on this subject as it adds clarity. I see where the electrostatic or HV briefly touched to a wire indeed causes the wire to quickly move. I have observed this before, but did not experiment further.

Indeed a reverse electrostatic pulse will cause, as you say a stronger kick, and this is probably the cause of the vibration of the device.

I guess it goes without saying that the two drive circuits must be electrically isolated and not share a common ground.

What do you suppose the value was in winding single layer or stretched out layers (as seen in large SM TPU's) as opposed to the more compact spool or solenoid approach as you show?

Thank you for the additional insight, I will try some of this on the bench. All help is appreciated.

Tinman said:

Quote

When both end coils are energized at the same time,the center coil will have double the voltage across it to that of each end coil-if the turn ratio of all three coils is the same.
It will also produce twice the current to that which is flowing through each end coil.

This of course depends on the pulsing/timing,and stuff like that

Brad:
Will have to try your suggestion on the bench. Twice the voltage and twice the current is four times the power so should be easily OU. Have you already tested this? What were your results? Timing diagram?

Regards
Vortex1

Turbo · « **Reply #160 on:** November 07, 2016, 11:00:55 PM »

Quote from: Vortex1 on November 07, 2016, 09:12:12 PM

Dear Turbo

Thank you much for your input on this subject as it adds clarity. I see where the electrostatic or HV briefly touched to a wire indeed causes the wire to quickly move. I have observed this before, but did not experiment further.

Indeed a reverse electrostatic pulse will cause, as you say a stronger kick, and this is probably the cause of the vibration of the device.

I guess it goes without saying that the two drive circuits must be electrically isolated and not share a common ground.

Bingo !
It is the floating point configuration that makes all the difference.
Of course if these two voltage sources were to be connected, it would simply resemble one closed loop system in which resistance would kill any of the high voltage phenomena we are looking for.

Quote from: Vortex1 on November 07, 2016, 09:12:12 PM

What do you suppose the value was in winding single layer or stretched out layers (as seen in large SM TPU's) as opposed to the more compact spool or solenoid approach as you show?

Thank you for the additional insight, I will try some of this on the bench. All help is appreciated.

Well as far as i can see Steven mentioned there are many wires perpendicular to the main collector.
This indicates to me that he had wrapped a lot of single wire or kick wires into his design.
It is only logical to think that if you hit one strand for one kick, that if you hit a thousand strands, for a thousand kicks, i.e a thousand kicks combining into one big current kick, but that would only mean a larger capacitor plate, if you get what i am saying.
So there is something to this,
For all means if that is the case, he could have simply used foil with a large surface area and this does not seem to be the case, it seems these wires had to be very thin, and individually isolated.
Almost as if they should resemble a literal connection into the electric field if you know what that looks like.
I am not there yet and at this point there is no need to speculate we have been doing that for way too long so i just build on what i find in my experiments.
I can be very specific here,
The goal is to run a feedback mechanism that incorporates the natural medium, to observe an variating output.
This variating output resembles what Steven called the turbine effect and it does only alternate from-to around a center frequency in the early and simplistic stage, and will have to be put into rotation by means of duplicating the hardware in a way that i hope you know where i'm going.

When you think about it, it isn't logical to have a fixed setup that generates a variation so this shows that the system is interacting with something that is outside of the circuit.
So i follow this lead and try to maximize this event and there are many things that are overlooked even in classical circuits take for example a simple groundloop, i assume we all know what it is and what is sounds like, the 50 or 60 Hertz buzz we hear coming out of our speakerset.
But you can take this ELF frequency off any piece of isolated metal even in completely ungrounded and isolated amplifier setups it just sits there as the dominant signal that moves any free electron close to the surface of the valence band or conduction band of the metal i am not sure which one but those that are the loosest bound to the metal.

Nobody seems to talk about why that happens or what is causing it, and even if there are more signals present.
A ground loop suggests that the setup is connected to ground, but it is the ungrounded setup that seems to be of most interest.
At least that's what i am finding.

Vortex1 · « **Reply #161 on:** November 08, 2016, 05:54:04 PM »

Turbo
I see what you are saying regarding the individual small wires being different than a capacitor plate. I experimented with foils in some TPU designs but didn't see anything unusual.

The freedom of motion of a single or multiple fine wires would be different than a capacitor plate.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Regards
Vortex1

Bob Smith · « **Reply #162 on:** November 09, 2016, 12:50:32 AM »

I think I finally understand this now. It is actually a push-pull kind of setup. The first kick (push) collapses and is followed by an inductive kick-back (pull) that basically enters the system from the ambient medium, via the 3rd coil. This circuit will only work if the middle coil is left open, or to use Bearden's words, as long as you don't kill the dipole.
Bob

verpies · « **Reply #163 on:** November 09, 2016, 01:57:23 AM »

Quote from: Vortex1 on November 07, 2016, 04:58:10 PM

I don't see any pulsing of the wire. I see a DC condition and a continuous current flow without interruption. If there were at least switches and / or a timing diagram we could talk of pulsing.

I could theorize regarding what happens when the circuit connections to the batteries are first made, but then I wold have to qualify the sequence of the "makes" since there are two. Same for the sequence of "circuit breaks"

I was assuming such sequence but indeed the diagram shows only DC.

Quote from: Vortex1 on November 07, 2016, 04:58:10 PM

I was hoping Turbo would expand his diagram with a further explanation rather than leave us to a myriad of guessing possibilities, hence what I wrote.

So was I

Quote from: Vortex1 on November 07, 2016, 04:58:10 PM

So, are you asking the question because you already know or because you would like someone to answer?

I'd like the author to answer how does the "kick" manifest.

shylo · « **Reply #164 on:** November 09, 2016, 09:50:47 AM »

(http://overunity.com/3605/theory-on-tpu-energy-scource/dlattach/attach/161159/image//)

Two of the diodes need to be reversed, one on each side.
Now add 4 more , between 1-2 2-3 . Now you put caps across all diode groups.
artv

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