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Author Topic: Meyer's Resonant Charging Circuit Analysed  (Read 48569 times)

Offline Dr. Tesla

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Re: Meyer's Resonant Charging Circuit Analysed
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2007, 11:14:19 AM »
Farrah Day,

 is it worth wasting the time on a concept that is obviously flawed and most likely just a scam? I mean, Meyer talks about the resonant/capacitance cell, and then says that ordinary, even muddy, water can be used...Even I know that impurities will make the current flow between the plates, and in a capacitor-like cell that is not what you want. Even if you make some gasses, as some have done, the efficiency will be very likely well below overunity.

I am tempted to talk my friend electronic engineer in to try and test Kanarev cell, if we can work out the shape of the cell, and whether the shape is actually crucial to efficiency. Conical shape, as drawn in his papers, would be a bit of a challenge to make properly, unless done by professional. Which also may turn into a challenge given that it would be a very small job for a professional to do.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Meyer's Resonant Charging Circuit Analysed
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2007, 11:14:19 AM »

Offline Farrah Day

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Re: Meyer's Resonant Charging Circuit Analysed
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2007, 01:53:17 PM »
Blimey Ausse, 80,KV is one hell of a kick from a car coil. Most standard coils provide between 15 - 25KV.  Even high energy coils over here only provide 40KV!

Doc, Meyer might have talked garbage, but a dc resonant charging cct is a genuine cct and does work, as they are used to fire Tesla coils. Whether or not it works as Meyer described for a wfc, is however extremely debatable. For one thing, you can't keep upping the voltage across a wfc like Meyer states. A dc resonant charging cct will only double the supply voltage, so it is futile for folks to try to get thousands of volts across their cells from a 12 volt supply unless they are using a transformer, a car coil, tv flyback transformer or something similar.

Meyers statements about water are all utter nonsense, he talks about the relative permitivity of pure water (gives the dielectric constant as 78ish) then says he uses tap water! But I'm working on the theory that the water is not the dielectric as Meyer stated, so it does not matter what water you use. I think that the dielectric which forms the capacitor is an insulating layer that builds up on the cathode.  Initially I assumed it would be an enhancement of the protective chromium oxide layer on the anode, but this appears not to be the case, as the cathode is where we get a build up of some compound. Puzzled by what, as it shouldn't be an oxide as it is a reduction reaction.  Whatever it is, those who have conditioned their electrodes find that it is an insulator. The cathodes in my test cell have also begun to form this white compound.

As far as it being worth the effort, well, my curiosity has gotten the better of me now, so I'm enjoying the learning process. I tend to do things my own way using tried and tested electronics rather than trying to replicate Meyer's scribblings, so at least I know what I have to start with.

The problem is that those who genuinely seem to have made progress don't tend to visit the forum anymore, so comparing notes and results is not an option, which seems odd to me.

Offline Schpankme

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Re: Meyer's Resonant Charging Circuit Analysed
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2007, 02:12:26 PM »
What quantity of HHO will your motor need to run on:
100% HHO
50% HHO
25% HHO
10% HHO

- Schpankme

Offline aussepom

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Re: Meyer's Resonant Charging Circuit Analysed
« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2007, 07:32:41 PM »
Hi    Faraday and doc
Yes it makes a lot of noise; at least you both agree with me and my friend that Myer's stuff was basically all bull.
I do not go into that Myer stuff any more a waste of time, her we have done testing and found that you will need 180 lts a min to run a 2,000cc 4cly engine and that?s at a fixed speed.
You can not have resonance in a DC circuit.
And yes the use of extreme high voltage as in above 1,000 volt will not be of any benefit.
aussepom

Offline Farrah Day

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Re: Meyer's Resonant Charging Circuit Analysed
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2007, 10:02:31 PM »
Ausse

I'm on a steep learning curve just trying to get to grips with the science involved at present. Be awhile before I'm attempting to run an ICE with my wfc! No doubt you'll see me in the news when I'm motoring around town in a large 4WD powered by my wfc... don't hold your breath tho! ;)

Noticed Spankmes brief post which reminds me of something I've been meaning to ask. Why does everyone use the abbreviation HHO when talking about the gas output from a wfc or electrolyser? Bit of a misnomer this. Surely it should be H2, O2 or more correctly balanced, 2H2, O2.

One thing I'm sure we won't be getting is monatomic hydrogen and oxygen!  Not really important, but it's just been bugging me :)

Ausse, your 180 litres per min for a 2000cc engine, was that using a 4% hydrogen mix calculation in the normal air intake?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Meyer's Resonant Charging Circuit Analysed
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2007, 10:02:31 PM »
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Offline AhuraMazda

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Re: Meyer's Resonant Charging Circuit Analysed
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2007, 03:11:09 PM »

There are different ways to wire a bifilar coil depending on what you want to achieve with it. According to Tesla, if constructed carefully and wired correctly, it can be made to act as a tuned LC cct by utilising the capacitance between each coil of wire. Once we apply a frequency at which the capacitive reactance between the coils is equal to the inductive reactance produced by the coils, we have exactly equal current flowing through both. However, at this resonant frequency the current through the inductor will be 180 degrees out of phase with the current through the capacitor.  Hence, the net current drawn by the cct is '0'.  The resistance then of the cct is in theory infinite as would be the voltage.  So, Tesla's bifilar coil in this configuration is effectively a parallel tuned LC circuit employing the capacitance between the coils rather than another physical component. Very clever.

Also according to Tesla, in this configuration the coils can hold thousands of time more charge than a standard inductor can.  So we can produce massive voltages from this bifilar coil.  We now potentially have... great potential!

Farrah Day



This show is not over yet. I have had this thought burning in my head for a long time. How do I make a Tesla pancake coil for which XL=XC?

AM

Offline aussepom

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Re: Meyer's Resonant Charging Circuit Analysed
« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2007, 07:33:57 PM »
Hi faraday we here is a reply I tried to post it the other day but my connection went down
 
Re: Meyer's Resonant Charging Circuit Analysed
? Reply #49 on: December 19, 2007, 09:02:31 PM ?

I'm on a steep learning curve just trying to get to grips with the science involved at present.

So you may be a young unit student??  Hard to judge any ones age or ability on these forums.


 Be awhile before I'm attempting to run an ICE with my wfc! No doubt you'll see me in the news when I'm motoring around town in a large 4WD powered by my wfc... don't hold your breath tho! 

No I will not, I do have the power figures to go with that 120lts a min requires, 20 of Cameron's new 30 plate units at a flow rate of 6 lts per min, this is at calculated 85% efficiency.
They draw 10 amps each at 60V   200X60 = 12,000watts  12kW.
So that?s why we are looking into of trying to improve it some how???


Noticed Spankmes brief post which reminds me of something I've been meaning to ask. Why does everyone use the abbreviation HHO when talking about the gas output from a wfc or electrolyser? Bit of a misnomer this. Surely it should be H2, O2 or more correctly balanced, 2H2, O2.

I do not know others have even given it there own name, Peter Lowery for one and there are others, I just use Hydroxcy. Because it is not fully separated it is still loosely bound, that?s why it will not mix the air in your manifold as recombine, it can and it will 'flash, bang, implode' given the right conditions, as many have found out. Well that?s in my opinion.   

One thing I'm sure we won't be getting is monatomic hydrogen and oxygen!  Not really important, but it's just been bugging me 
No you won't monatomic can be obtained under special conditions, it has life span of a very small fraction of a second, if it is in the close proximity to oxygen it will recombine giving off the same amount of energy that it took to break it apart.

Ausse, your 180 litres per min for a 2000cc engine, was that using a 4% hydrogen mix calculation in the normal air intake?

The test was done by an engineer and some helpers, I was given most of the important info to put on my special spreadsheet programme to obtain other info such as the Btu and calculate the energy LHV value etc. it can also calculate different mixes of other fuels for the energy content.
Info that I obtained the other day after talking to the engineer, it was a calculated mix of air and Hydroxcy, on a 198cc gen set running at about 2,000 RPM with a flow rate of 2lts per min of Hydroxcy. I do not have the air value he is keeping that to himself for the present time.   
Ok will that help
aussepom

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Meyer's Resonant Charging Circuit Analysed
« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2007, 07:33:57 PM »
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Offline oystla

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Re: Meyer's Resonant Charging Circuit Analysed
« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2007, 11:58:19 PM »
Hi, just noticed the thread.

A few comments;

1. A diode has also a capacitance value in reverse. This means that this is a CLC circuit, and YES it resonates between the "capacitors", where the diode in reverse is the first capacitor and the water cell is the second, with the coil inbetween.

Farrah, you are right that the water will have a leakage current. This only means that the water capacitor will loose some of the charge, and that the resonance will dissipate faster the less recistanse the water has.

The water capacitor equals in electrical terms a capacitor with a resistor in bypass.

So the pulse frequency that should be used to feed the circuit can easily be calculated if the capacitance of diode and water cell is known + the inductance of the coil.

2. Meyer stated a diode type in his patent with a maximum allowable revers voltage of 1200 Volts. This means that the water capacitor must have plates or tubes with close enough proximity to reduce the breakdown voltage to below 1200 volts, or else the diode will be destroyed.

3. What is achieved in my opinion is avalanche breakdown of the water. The avalanche breakdown will break the water melocules into H2/O2 gas. To close the "ionic" channel in the water created by the avalanche breakdown, a second coil was introduced in the curcuit. This coil build up a revers voltage during the breakdown, which closes the ionic channel and prevents all charge to be lost from the water capacitor and thereby keep a minimum, voltage over the cell as Meyer stated.


Offline Farrah Day

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Re: Meyer's Resonant Charging Circuit Analysed
« Reply #53 on: December 21, 2007, 07:24:31 PM »
Oystla

I think I should point out that in no way is a diode a capacitor. A diode will not charge up or hold a charge, it is simply a device that with allow current flow in one direction and block it in the other.  All ther diode does in Meyer's cct is stop the wfc discharging back through the inductor to the supply.

Very hard to calculate the pulse frequency required unless you know what you want it to do exactly, and I'm not sure anyone does as water won't resonate until its hit by microwaves.

Resonance, I believe, as I've said before, is just a Meyer, misnomer. The cct can't resonate as a tuned cct in a radio would, the electronics are wrong.

Offline AhuraMazda

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Re: Meyer's Resonant Charging Circuit Analysed
« Reply #54 on: December 21, 2007, 07:33:55 PM »

I think Meyer used the tubes for a specific reason and not just to look cool.
Also I believe the circuit has been altered in the patent not to reveal his secret.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Meyer's Resonant Charging Circuit Analysed
« Reply #54 on: December 21, 2007, 07:33:55 PM »
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Offline oystla

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Re: Meyer's Resonant Charging Circuit Analysed
« Reply #55 on: December 21, 2007, 08:26:04 PM »
Farrah,

Do a search on google on diode and capacitance, and read about it.

YES diodes have a capacitance value in reverse and therefore they acts as capacitors in revers.

You need to update your knowledge.

On Youtube you will find people allready copying the "meyer" effect, i.e. high voltage avalanche breakdown of water,  and verifying the results using the Lawton circuitry.

By the way, Meyer never referred to water resonance, Its the electrical circuit resonance he talked about, using water cell as capacitor as part of the circuit.

Offline oystla

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Re: Meyer's Resonant Charging Circuit Analysed
« Reply #56 on: December 21, 2007, 08:33:26 PM »
Farrah,

Do a search on google on diode and capacitance, and read about it.

YES diodes have a capacitance value in reverse and therefore they acts as capacitors in revers.

You need to update your knowledge.

On Youtube you will find people allready copying the "meyer" effect, i.e. high voltage avalanche breakdown of water,  and verifying the results using the Lawton circuitry.

By the way, Meyer never referred to water resonance, Its the electrical circuit resonance he talked about, using water cell as capacitor as part of the circuit.

Offline Farrah Day

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Re: Meyer's Resonant Charging Circuit Analysed
« Reply #57 on: December 22, 2007, 12:49:18 AM »
I did not mean to belittle you in anyway Oystla, I was simply attempting to put you straight. It's just that you are on the wrong track with the diode-capacitor thing.

I do not need to update my knowledge on this, you simply need to understand a few basics and realise where your going wrong.  Most components will exhibit a small capacitance, even two parallel tracks on a cct board will, but a diode in reverse does not a capacitor make.  A diode works and acts nothing like a capacitor, even tho it will exhibit a tiny amount of capacitance. A capacitor will pass AC, a diode will not.  I think it's a case of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing, but don't let me put you off using diodes as capacitors. In fact why not simply ditch the diode altogether and use a proper capacitor instead?

Meyer's version of resonance in his technical briefs is flawed throughout, he talks about a series resonant tuned cct providing maximum voltage and minimum current at the resonant frequency, when in fact this applies only to a parallel resonant tuned cct.  It is completely the opposite for a series cct.  Meyer never fully explains how hydrogen and oxygen are liberated by using a resonant frequency, he just assumed that it was somehow, as he puts it, 'pulling the water apart'. Not good enough I'm afraid. No comprehendable scientific explanation and no reaction equations to
emphasise what is actually occuring.  Basically a lot of invented bullshit that should be taken with a pinch of salt!
I'm well versed in the Meyer technical briefs and his misguided babblings on electronics theory - read the patents, laughed at the technical briefs and got the t-shirt!


AM, I think Meyer used tubes because they are more efficient and easier to assemble than plates.

Construct a bifilar coil as in Teslas patents and inductive reactance will equal capacitive reactance and cancel each other out a certain specific frequency. At that frequency the coil would not show any capacitance or inductance.  This method is used to make low value wire wound resistors that exhibit hardly any reactance.

There is a lot of hearsay and nonsense about Meyer patents. Don't be drawn in or swayed by this, stand back, be objective and give it a little thought.

Why would he alter the ccts in his patent?  The patent is designed to protect the invention 'as is' and as such will only protect the invention as given to the patent office. Why would he want something that does not work protected and thereby leave an opening for someone else to patent there own modified proper working version?  Think. If he thought that the patent office would sell on or disclose his invention, then why would he go there in the first place?

No, Meyer patented what he thought he needed to before he had a working model, hoping he would get there in the near future, and possibly of course to create investor interest.  He was trying to patent his 'idea', hoping to put his idea into reality before too long.  By doing this he hoped to stop anyone else jumping on the band wagon and 'pipping him to the post!'   I think he 'over-cooked it' somewhere along the line though and began to find himself in trouble when things were'nt progressing as planned.

But hey, that's only my opinion. Plenty of Meyer fanatics and 'blind faith' followers hang onto every word of his technical briefs like their life depended on it.  Such is life!





Offline z_p_e

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Re: Meyer's Resonant Charging Circuit Analysed
« Reply #58 on: December 22, 2007, 06:40:10 AM »
FD,

First, good job on your work and analysis. I wish there were more folks like you investigating the TPU.

Second, I don't want to harp or dwell on this, but diodes do exhibit capacitance while in reverse bias. The capacitance is proportional to the amount of reverse bias. There is even a device produced specifically to capitalize on this effect, and they're called "varactor diodes". They are used to "pull" the frequency of crystal oscillators, and act as one of the capacitor legs in the circuit around the xtal. Was Meyers using the diode in his WFC as a capacitor?...probably not. Just a FYI.

One thing I would suggest, although it has been touched on a couple of times, is to analyse the WFC itself. Specifically, how the water acts in the cell. You mentioned that it exhibits a non-linear resistance. Is there info on this? References? I am not doubting you, but some technical data would be helpful. The water and cell needs to be modeled imho. As oystla said, part of that model would be a capacitor/resistor pair in parallel across the plates. The resistor models the dielectric (water) resistance. All capacitors can be modeled this way, but the resistor in the WFC capacitor model is much lower in value than "real" capacitors, AND as you say, it may be non-linear in nature. I would like to know in what way is it non-linear? Is it due to ion lag and inertia perhaps?

The dielectric layer on the electrodes is another important factor I believe, as do you. So now there are two very different dielectrics in series, one very thin and highly dielectric, and one very thick with poor dielectric properties.

Just a couple thoughts for now...

Offline oystla

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Re: Meyer's Resonant Charging Circuit Analysed
« Reply #59 on: December 22, 2007, 12:38:24 PM »
OK,

1. I know Meyer had no formal scientific training, and was "self taught" on many fields. His claims and explanations is therefore difficult to grasp, and seems to be a lot of BS. He uses words for things that are not used in science, so one have to try to "convert" his phrases and try to interpret what he actually meant.

But I agree He was far out on many claims.

2. However his patents on water "electrolysis" are interesting. His first patent on the issue we are discussing here was filed in the early eighties (1982 i believe..)


3. If you connect a diode, inductor and capacitor in series, feed it with a pulse signal and connect an oscilloscope, you will see a decaying pulse between the diode and the capacitor. The timing will be the resonating  frequency of the circuit, which is depended on electrical properties of the components, just as Meyer stated....

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Meyer's Resonant Charging Circuit Analysed
« Reply #59 on: December 22, 2007, 12:38:24 PM »

 

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