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Author Topic: Meyer's WFC concept analysed  (Read 63024 times)

Offline HeairBear

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Re: Meyer's WFC concept analysed
« Reply #75 on: November 22, 2007, 07:58:31 PM »
Excellent post! Your tests will confirm most of what you describe as mine did. Using distilled water, I found that even at 120v, I was getting very little gas and low current consumption. To me, that confirms the ionization process you describe. No catalyst = no electrolysis.

Since we can only go so far with conventional electrolysis, we must find another form of energy transfer to the water such as sound or light. Viktor Schauberger wrote some great volumes about water. His work is invaluable to this field of research.
http://www.cast.uni-linz.ac.at/Department/Publications/Pubs2001/Engl_Haydu.doc

Stan claims to use a frequency range of 20Khz to 50Khz stated here.
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:B5jACr0Eob4J:www.rexresearch.com/meyerhy/2067735.htm+This+frequency+will+typically+lie+within+the+range+of+from+about+20+KHz+to+about+50+KHz,&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

These frequencies are in the ultrasonic range, which is relevant to this document...
http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/suslick/britannica.html

Further research will show that 20Khz is a common frequency used in devices such as foggers and water purification. You can even buy ultrasonic spark plugs for you car.

When I was a kid, a friend showed me a neat trick using a 5 gallon bucket of water, a stick, and a compass. He would agitate the water with the stick very rapidly causing the compass to go all wacky. He said it was from the water being ionized by the agitation. I never fully understood that till recently.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Meyer's WFC concept analysed
« Reply #75 on: November 22, 2007, 07:58:31 PM »

Offline mrgalleria

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Re: Meyer's WFC concept analysed
« Reply #76 on: November 22, 2007, 08:57:24 PM »
Aloha,
I also have been reading over Meyers patents and have come to this understanding.
In normal electrolisis, electricity (in many forms) is added to the water to split it apart.
In the Meyers method, he takes the electricity already binding the hydrogen and oxygen, and takes it away, causing the hydro-oxy to explode in runaway division, as the binding agent has been removed. He capitalizes on the natural law of electrical saturation.
Everything, according to it's nature, has electrical saturation. Meyers found a way to make the electrodes unsaturated, thusly forcing the electricity to release from the water into the electrodes, and maybe also into the air (where it came from in the first place).
Bill

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Farrah Day

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Re: Meyer's WFC concept analysed
« Reply #77 on: November 23, 2007, 11:10:51 PM »
OK

Just to fit the final bit of the water ionisation issue that I was puzzling over above somewhere.

It's strange that this information is not to be found if you look up electrolysis of water, but can be found if you google water ionisation. Apparently when water self-ionises (ie, there is no additional electrolyte compound added), you get the Hydroxyl ion (OH-) and a hydronium ion (H3O+). Obviously this involves a reaction between 2 water molecules so the balanced equation is

2H2O  ----  H3O+ and OH-

As water molecules collide water can self-ionise, so it would follow that self-ionisation can be encouraged by creating movement within the water. This is a reversible reaction, with ions continually reforming as water molecules.

And here's an interesting snippet of info.  When water ionises it is an endothermic reaction (ie, it takes energy from the environment - in the form of heat).  Does this explain why Meyer-type wfc's remain cool whilst still giving of a lot of gas!!  Definitely worthy of further consideration.


Offline Farrah Day

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Re: Meyer's WFC concept analysed
« Reply #78 on: December 05, 2007, 09:56:53 PM »
Further thoughts.

From some tests I'm undertaking and detailing on my, 'Meyer type WFC - From design and fabrication to test and development' thread, I would like to compound some of my thinking on the processes I believe to be involved.

First thing I can say is that my ss concentric tube design certainly charges up and holds that charge for a certain time when a voltage is applied. This it does whether submerged in water... or not, so I do indeed have a capacitor.  In de-ionised water, and using 31v straight dc with a very small 70mA current flow still provides a voltage of 3.6 volts across the tubes 2 minutes after the power supply has been disconnected.

Even in de-ionised water, at 31 volts, after a time I could visibly see some gases coming off the tubes. When the power supply was disconnected, the cell still appeared to be actively producing gas for a couple of minutes. This I found somewhat surprising as my cell consists of 3 concentic tubes with a solid centre ss cathode spaced 1/4 inch apart, meaning that at 3.6 volts, I only effectively had 1.2 volts across each tube.

I'm now wondering just how much charge my cell will hold, and what will happen once it's limit is reached!

So, if my tubes are steadily charging, the next question has to be: how do I initiate rapid ionisation of the water molecule and hence make use of all these charges?

Will try to keep both threads updated as my testing progresses.


Offline mrgalleria

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Re: Meyer's WFC concept analysed
« Reply #79 on: December 11, 2007, 04:18:23 AM »
Aloha,
Farrah Day wrote "how do I initiate rapid ionisation of the water molecule"?
It is my understanding that the inductors and the transformer typically used in the Meyers circuit
perform that function when the current stops, the field colapses, pulling a drain of -0 volts, and the reaction I described earlier occurs. That is, the electrodes are desaturated, pulling electrons from the water, causing the water to decompose to hydrogen-oxygen.
Bill

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Meyer's WFC concept analysed
« Reply #79 on: December 11, 2007, 04:18:23 AM »
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Offline Esotericman

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Re: Meyer's WFC concept analysed
« Reply #80 on: January 24, 2008, 07:13:24 AM »
In regards to the idea that water self-ionizes as H2O molecules collide...
As mentioned above, the frequencies we are dealing with is in the ultrasonic range.  Is it possible this is vaporizing the water, as in an ultrasonic humidifier?  Perhaps water ionizes more readily in its gaseous state?  Maybe the bubbles just create sufficient movement within the water to induce self-ionization?

Seems like a stretch I know, but is it possible the effect has no single cause, but merely a convenient combination of several conditions?


Has anyone checked to see if the output from a cell contains water vapor in addition to H and O? 

The other important test is to check the pH of the water in a cell before and after priming the plates.  I'd be curious to see how pure the water really is after this process- maybe the metal gives up some electrolytes to the water during oxidation

Offline firsthydroman

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Re: Meyer's WFC concept analysed
« Reply #81 on: May 31, 2008, 05:11:50 AM »
Hi, so where did everybody go?
I really enjoyed reading all these posts but they ended in Jan of 08!
Nothing since.
Has anyone gotten the results they were shooting for or did everybody give up?
Did the thread move elsewhere?
If so, please advise.

I too am working on my own version of the WFC and PWM.
I think mine might be better than the lawton circuit.
Doesn't use 555's which are simple timers and are not really made for this kind of application.
Yet another reason many may not be having much success.

Let me know where yall are.

Thanks
Hydroman

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Meyer's WFC concept analysed
« Reply #81 on: May 31, 2008, 05:11:50 AM »
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Offline powercat

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Re: Meyer's WFC concept analysed
« Reply #82 on: May 31, 2008, 11:32:52 AM »
Hi firsthydroman Welcome to the forum

HeairBear is here    http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4810.msg101111/topicseen.html#msg101111
Iam looking to buy a Dave Lawton style PWM. 2 sites selling the PWM    http://www.pwmpower.com/  thay all so do a Bob Boyce [PWM
  http://www.vptechno.com/d14PWM.html        But which is the best for my car.?


pc

Offline firsthydroman

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Re: Meyer's WFC concept analysed
« Reply #83 on: May 31, 2008, 05:54:13 PM »
Thanks Powercat!
Cool links.

I can probably come up with any design you have in mind.

From what I've seen, unless it has been quite improved, the pwmpower guy doesn't know what he's doing. Pulses all over the place, not square, AC coupled ect. Not impressed with that at all.

Haven't looked at the others yet but I have found some real nice bench top type pulse generators out there. Very pricey but good stuff none the less. Not made for automotive use of course.

An automotive setup, if you are using standard electrolysis, would need to be automated for control of current to the cells and also to turn it on and off automatically. PWM is all that is needed. No need for the other fancy features and flexibility that the so called Lawton circuit provides as it is primarily for research purposes.

I can provide what you need, no problem.
I had developed a system for a different application that is ironically similar to one of Meyer's drivers that uses different chips.

Feel free to have a look at the results of my latest design.
http://hydrogencollective.com/packetpulser1.mpg
You may have to right click and select 'save target as' to view in locally on your PC.
Let me know what you think and feel free to pass it on to others.
I may post it on youtube at some point.

Let me know if I can be of help.

Thanks
Hydroman

P.S. Where did Farrah Day go off to? Did he fall into the abyss? ;-)

Offline 22350

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Re: Meyer's WFC concept analysed
« Reply #84 on: May 31, 2008, 06:48:29 PM »
Hey guys,

This is my first post. Glad to be here.

I have just started researching this subject, so pardon if some of my questions have already been addressed.  I will read and try to find what I can.

I have seen a lot of talk about Stan Meyer's concept .  In the course of these discussions, there has been mention of that dune buggy, which was running on Brown's Gas.  It seems that people are having trouble figuring out how to reproduce Meyer's results, as he is not with us anymore.  My question is:  Wasn't there two guys in that video?  Where are the people where were working with Stan?  Don't they have info to fill in some of the grey areas?

Second,  When you create a vehicle to run exclusively on the HHO gas, is it set up similarly to a vehicle that runs on Natural Gas?

Last,  Is there any guidelines that give us required volumes of gas to run a vehicle?  For example:  3 litre engine needs X amount of HHO gas to operate.  Or, litres of gas per cubic centimeter.

Thanks, guys.

Paul


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Meyer's WFC concept analysed
« Reply #84 on: May 31, 2008, 06:48:29 PM »
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Offline powercat

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Re: Meyer's WFC concept analysed
« Reply #85 on: May 31, 2008, 07:42:24 PM »
HI Hydroman


Quote
Thanks Powercat!
Cool links.

I can probably come up with any design you have in mind
.

my car is a 1995 ford escort 1.9 TD the cell iam looking at is SS cups    http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4302.msg101240/topicseen.html#msg101240

Quote
From what I've seen, unless it has been quite improved, the pwmpower guy doesn't know what he's doing. Pulses all over the place, not square, AC coupled ect. Not impressed with that at all
.

No answer to my email from him. hmmm

Quote
Haven't looked at the others yet but I have found some real nice bench top type pulse generators out there. Very pricey but good stuff none the less. Not made for automotive use of course
.

Very pricey not good my car was only ? 200. not for automotive use no problem for me

Quote
An automotive setup, if you are using standard electrolysis, would need to be automated for control of current to the cells and also to turn it on and off automatically. PWM is all that is needed. No need for the other fancy features and flexibility that the so called Lawton circuit provides as it is primarily for research purposes.

That sounds great for me and many others on the forum with crippling full cost

Quote
I can provide what you need, no problem.
I had developed a system for a different application that is ironically similar to one of Meyer's drivers that uses different chips
.

A friend is helping me with the electronics and i am doing the rest

Quote
Feel free to have a look at the results of my latest design.
http://hydrogencollective.com/packetpulser1.mpg
You may have to right click and select 'save target as' to view in locally on your PC.
Let me know what you think and feel free to pass it on to others.
I may post it on youtube at some point.

Yes right click and select 'save target as . One for the others on the forum (and my friend)

Quote
Let me know if I can be of help.

Yes please   (for all us beginners)

Quote
Thanks
Hydroman

P.S. Where did Farrah Day go off to? Did he fall into the abyss? ;-)

Last seen here on: February 29, 2008  http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3641.msg79556.html#msg79556


all the best
pc

Offline mrgalleria

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Re: Meyer's WFC concept analysed
« Reply #86 on: June 30, 2008, 08:44:11 PM »
Aloha,
Sorry, I spend most of my time at oupower.com. You may want to see my project folder there, some good photos and info on cell design and plasma cell upgrades.
Bill


Offline tulook

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Re: Meyer's WFC concept analysed
« Reply #87 on: July 08, 2008, 05:09:00 AM »
these are posts from a former member who has had some success with this thing and may have gone underground
ravzz
Regular Poster


Joined: 24 Jan 2005
Posts: 75

 Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:57 am    Post subject: Ravi's Meyer Replication- Tap Water to H2   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
The input to the Water Fuel Cell (WFC) was 0.51 Amps only. Just made the videos and uploaded. Its totally Pulse Voltage and Frequency based...


Video 1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vzTzqpp-Uk

This video shows the innards of the WFC without water.


Video 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNJ_vjuO_ME

This video shows Freshly filled Tap Water. No other impurities (Read no Salts or Acids or anything at all...just plain tap water and not distilled water) added.


Video 3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1lScTsHBkQ

This video is after the top is sealed and with an input of 0.5 Amps
from the Frequency Generator.


Enjoy the videos.. 
 
Back to top       
 
 
ravzz
Regular Poster


Joined: 24 Jan 2005
Posts: 75

 Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:21 am    Post subject: Outputs   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
NOW THE OUTPUTS:


Presently the approximate volumetric gas discharge by an inverted
measuring flask is given below:


INPUT--H2+O2 cc/sec---H2 only cc/sec---H2 Lit/hr

0.5 A-----7.00--------------4.66-------------16.776
1.0 A-----8.66--------------5.78-------------20.808
1.5 A-----11.66-------------7.78-------------28.008
2.0 A-----14.00-------------9.33-------------33.588
3.0 A-----16.36------------10.91-------------39.276
4.0 A-----18.00------------12.00-------------43.200

*H2+O2 was calculated on an average basis for collection time of 30
secs. I'm not very sure of H2 and O2 volumes as I've calculated H2 as
2/3rd the volume of the total and O2 as 1/3rd the volume. Incase im wrong please do let me know how to calculate these.
 

Offline tulook

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Re: Meyer's WFC concept analysed
« Reply #88 on: July 08, 2008, 05:16:40 AM »
some more on conditioning...
ravzz
Regular Poster


Joined: 24 Jan 2005
Posts: 75

 Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:31 am    Post subject: Hi again   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
For Kumaran:

I'm not very sure if you are well versed with Stanley Meyer Technology.

I would be for one thing very impressed if you could generate anywhere close to the outputs mentioned with pulsed 12 Volts and HALF an AMP!!

Please donot confuse this with the regular high ampearage electrolysis. This is low ampearage high volage pulsed electrolysis!! wherein you use the voltage potential to break down the covalent bonds and by the way the water doesnt heat up as in the regular electrolysis. The temperature rise is at the most 3 - 4 deg above ambient after about half hour of working!!

If you take a closer look at the third video you would see large bubbles of the range of 4mmto 10mm+leaving the tubes, so dont go by the more visible slow moving smaller bubbles.





To SeaMonkey and MarkinAustralia :


I initially started off with Dave's circuit.....was in touch with him to sort out a few issues with the circuits the went on to make a few improvements. You could say that Dave's circuit was the skeleton where i started off but had to make some changes. Of the original circuit i had a few burnt/blown out components and low gas generation as my setup is with 9 tubes of 9 inch lengths and his was 6 tubes of 5 inch lengths so the exposed surface areas are comparitively higher. From what I presumed Stan used tubes of 18 inches so I went for half his length but the same number as in his video.

Material used is 316L seamless pipes. Annealed for 3 hours in inert amosphere of Argon to remove all residual magnetism and cold work stresses before they are assemled. Leads used are 316L 1.2mm dia wires to all 18 pipes individually spot welded. The inner pipe is 1/2 inch longer than the outer at the bottom for the setup for connections.

You need to be very patient with the conditioning of the pipes.....it took me months to get the generation you see.

Volts x Amps = Watts

12 x 0.51 = 6.12 watts the generation is around 7 cc/sec


which coverts to 16.776 Lits / hour

16.776 x 2.4 watts (Faraday/lit/hour generation) = 40.262 Watts


Well I seem to be generating the equivalent of 40.2 watts as per Faraday with just 6.12 Watts.........I hope this answers Kumaran's question aswell.

I dont know if im right but I seem to be generating 550% excess

as the above works out to 40.2/6.12 x 100 = 656.86%

656.86 - 100 (Faraday) = 556.86% OU !!

Correct me if im wrong with the calculations.



Alright now to the crux of the situ... I dont know how long i'll be allowed to post this stuff over the net as initialy when I was in touch with Dave I had sent some pics to him and my place was raided within a few hours after the mail to him. I was kind of helped out during this time by Dave and Patrick Kelly.Though ive had success a few months ago I had not come out in the open but now Ashtweth of Panaces Bocaf has convinced me to go public as this could save me any more future harassment.....Im taking a huge chance by posting this right now.... you can see more details of the problem at

http://www.panacea-bocaf.org/EngineerinIndia.htm

The above writeup is on a few other sites aswell. This had happened some time in Jan this year.

I'll try and post a few more videos using 12 Volts 1 amp 1.5 amp.... at the earliest and post the links. Try and save the vids incase theyre removed.
 


Offline tulook

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Re: Meyer's WFC concept analysed
« Reply #89 on: July 08, 2008, 05:24:06 AM »
and this bit...
ravzz
Regular Poster


Joined: 24 Jan 2005
Posts: 75

 Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:46 am    Post subject: CONDITIONING OF TUBES!!!!!   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Alright guys make a note of this and save it some place

The conditioning process below was given to me by Dave Lawton and its what I followed religiously for months to reach the outputs. Consider this as the holy grail like I did and still do...

1. Donot use any resistance on the negative side when conditioning the pipes.

2. Start at 0.5 Amps on freq gen and switch off after 25 mins for 30 mins

3. Goto 1.0 Amps for 20 min and stop for 30 min

4. Goto 1.5 Amps for 15 min and stop for 20 min

5. Goto 2.0 Amps for 10 min and stop for 20 min

6. Goto 2.5 Amps for 5 min and stop for 15 min

7. Goto 3.0 Amps for 120 to 150 secs. need to check if WFC getting hot...if it does you need to reduce the time.

AFTER THE 7 STEPS ABOVE LET THE WFC STAND FOR ATLEAST AN HOUR BEFORE YOU START ALL OVER AGAIN. I used tap water for conditioning and no vinegar or any additives.... I donot know if adding something might work or not.

You would hardly see any gas generation at the beginning but it makes a lot of brown muck.....change the water after every cycle initially. DONOT touch the tubes with bare hands if the tube ends need to be cleaned of muck use a brush but donot touch!! As per my experience the brown muck if left in water for the next cycle heats up the water and you need to avoid this.

Then you see the reduction in generation of the brown stuff over a period of time and at a point the pipes dont make any brown stuff atall. You would have had very good generation of gas by now. You get a whitish powdery coat on the surfaces. Never touch the pipes with bare hands once this comes on.

DO THE CONDITIONING IN A WELL VENTILATED AREA OR PREFERRABLY CLOSE THE TOP AND VENT THE GAS OUT IN THE OPEN.

AS THE WFC IS LEFT ON FOR QUITE SOMETIME EVEN SMALL AMOUNT OF GENERATION CAN GET ACCUMULATED IN A CONSTRICTED SPACE AND COULD BE A HAZARD.



The above process to be done after annealing the pipes....see to it that no oxide formation is left on the pipes...use a detergent to wash off the pipes and rinse them thoroughly with fresh water.....assemble the setup including the leads and base.....finally flush the pipes with lots of fresh water......donot touch the pipes with bare hands after this.......


Good Luck and happy conditioning......RAVI 



I'll be away for a day or two....will get to more explaining after that.

Of course this is not the whole story but i hope this helps :-X

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Meyer's WFC concept analysed
« Reply #89 on: July 08, 2008, 05:24:06 AM »

 

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