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Author Topic: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler  (Read 1470463 times)

hansvonlieven

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #675 on: November 18, 2007, 10:25:58 PM »
Why don't you guys use an optocoupler instead of the LED, measurement should then be easy.

Hans von Lieven

hartiberlin

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #676 on: November 18, 2007, 10:31:12 PM »
After the Avramenkp plug there is pure DC at the LEDs and the cap, so it is easy to measure there the DC power in the LEDs. No optocoupler circuit needed, you can measure pure DC electrical power.

DrStiffler

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #677 on: November 18, 2007, 10:58:56 PM »
After the Avramenkp plug there is pure DC at the LEDs and the cap, so it is easy to measure there the DC power in the LEDs. No optocoupler circuit needed, you can measure pure DC electrical power.

I do indeed dispute that you have true DC. If another of the group that has worked with me wants to add to this, great, but, you can not on a properly running SEC circuit just throw a big electrolytic across the AV Plug and get DC.

Even with very elaborate low pass filters consisting of canceling inductors, followed by a 10uf + 0.1uf + 0.01uf followed by two 8mm ferrite beads, you can still hold a neon on the end with one lead in your fingers and get it to light. A true SEC circuit is at such high impedance that the mere addition of a couple inches of wire is enough to change the frequency.

It does indeed take time and care to make these measurement. The method of using a Light Meter or Cds cell and DVM will give good accurate results. With a working SEC you will get far more light (on meter) than you will get from equivalent DC drive to the same LED.

Stick two LEDS in a black tube, one is from a string of LEDS from a SEC and the other driven from a DC source.  With the ref Off, measure the light output of the single LED. Apply DC to the ref LED until you read twice the output (if using a Cds you need to adjust for its response curve). Or measure a single LED in a SEC and then remove it and drive it with DC for the same light output. Simple math will show where you are.

If you keep working with different configurations, you are just wasting your time. Nothing will work below 3.5mHZ, best depending on how well you wound and centered the primary, will be 10.8-12mHz.

It works guys. Yes RF is different from audio and it does indeed take care, but hey, its been done, follow instructions, don't improvise and invent.

hansvonlieven

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #678 on: November 18, 2007, 11:07:31 PM »
Exactly what I thought, hence the optocoupler.

Hans von Lieven

hartiberlin

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #679 on: November 19, 2007, 12:17:58 AM »


I do indeed dispute that you have true DC. ......you can still hold a neon on the end with one lead in your fingers and get it to light.

Well, if I measure directly with my now ungrounded scope at the 22 uF cap across the AP and the 10 Diodes,
there is pure DC on the cap.

But the whole AP circuit is surely still oscillating with about 200 Volts p-p versus the circuit ground.

Soif you hold a neon bulb in your hands I still also get it to light up
a bit when I touch the plus or minus pole of the 22 uF cap, cause my  body
is at ground potential..
But the cap itself just has pure DC and thus the 10 LEDs just are powered
by pure DC Voltage.
No mystery here.

hoptoad

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #680 on: November 19, 2007, 12:18:26 AM »
Exactly what I thought, hence the optocoupler.

Hans von Lieven

Hans, you're great with brevity. You said in a few words what I tried to say in a few paragraphs!   LOL :D

Cheers from the Toad who Hops

hartiberlin

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #681 on: November 19, 2007, 12:28:59 AM »
Hi Ron and all,
the circuit board you are using with the 2 alu back plates really
treat your circuit very differently than my circuit board, that has no metal backplates !

Please try to build your circuit on a different experimentation board without
alu backplates and you will see, that you need at least 20 to 30 cm wire between
the last coil and the Avramenko plug to light the LEDs up at all and then the resonance frequency will
be at around 1.5 to 2 Mhz only.

I just modified my oscillator circuit and can now go from 1 Mhz to 20 Mhz
and I only get now a resonance at around 2 Mhz not anymore higher !
It really depends how long the wires are from the litzcoil to the avramenko plug.

There RF effects are a real "bitch".
As I said, try it without your alu backplates and all
will be different.

zaydana

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #682 on: November 19, 2007, 02:43:25 AM »
Stefan,
Dare I say it, you are probably the person who should be being told to try it with the backplate. We're not trying to replicate stuff that doesn't work here, we're trying to replicate what Dr. Stiffler has apparently already got. Building stuff that we know doesn't work won't prove anything.

Also, please have a look at the experiments Dr. Stiffler and I outlined - they're rather similar. You cannot just measure the DC current going through the LEDs to check for over-unity, you actually need to check the input to the entire circuit against the light output. This is because we can't be sure that any over-unity effects behave in the same way that standard electricity does.

Lastly, due to imperfections in light meters and response times in LEDs, you must feed the same signal through the LEDs in the SEC, and the LEDs by themselves. Otherwise all you prove is that your equipment doesn't have an infinite resolution and accuracy, which goes without saying.


Hans,
I'm a bit of a noob and don't know the specifics of optocouplers, but is it possible that if we are dealing with cold electricity here, an optocoupler wouldn't be the way to go? While being sealed off is ideal, it seems to me that what we really want is to measure the output of the LEDs directly, not via an amplifier. The simpler the better. Of course, I could be wrong...


P.S.
Stefan: You really need to change the color for unvisited links to something other than the text color around it. From an actual web developer's perspective, it is a really bad usability and design decision. Ideally, you should just let them be blue like everywhere else.

amigo

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #683 on: November 19, 2007, 03:15:16 AM »
I have built the new "Thomas" oscillator circuit and I must say I'm quite impressed :D

I only have about 20 blue and white LEDs but boy do they shine bright or what. I did not have 2N3904 so I've used 2N2222A (found one with hFE of ~210). The circuit apparently oscillates at ~1.5MHz and uses ~32mA of current from my 12V gel battery though that figure seems to fluctuate up and down, I've seen it go up to 70mA when I was probing points with my scope but that's just temporary.

Either way a word of caution to everyone building this is not to just go around touching spots or bridging them with fingers on your two hands because there's 120-180Vp-p on the secondary output and you could (will) get shocked.

So now that this works how do we get rid of the battery altogether? ;D

hartiberlin

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #684 on: November 19, 2007, 03:49:42 AM »
@Amigo,
can you please show a picture of your Thomas circuit ?
Did you built it also onto an experimentator board, that has 2 alu backplates ?

How do you control the resonance frequency with this circuit ?
How do you adjust it for optimal resonance ?

I hope we can get rid of these experimentator boards and can try to
create something that works on a normal PCB board, so one could
create a kit that also works without any problems.

hartiberlin

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #685 on: November 19, 2007, 04:01:13 AM »
By the way:

MUR 4100 E
1kV 4(125)A 75ns DO27
from Motorola

diodes work quite nice as the Avramenko Plug diodes.
A bit better than the 1N4148
at least in my setups.

hoptoad

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #686 on: November 19, 2007, 04:20:55 AM »
"You cannot just measure the DC current going through the LEDs to check for over-unity, you actually need to check the input to the entire circuit against the light output. "

Lumens out per input Watts, .....KneeDeep......LpW......KneeDeep  ;D


amigo

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #687 on: November 19, 2007, 04:22:22 AM »
@Amigo,
can you please show a picture of your Thomas circuit ?
Did you built it also onto an experimentator board, that has 2 alu backplates ?

How do you control the resonance frequency with this circuit ?
How do you adjust it for optimal resonance ?

I hope we can get rid of these experimentator boards and can try to
create something that works on a normal PCB board, so one could
create a kit that also works without any problems.

Photo is attached (turned out pretty nice in close-up). :)

I am using a standard breadboard with a single plate at the bottom since I do not have spare plate-less breadboards right now. Once I free one I'll try the circuit on a plain breadboard and report what happens.

I have tried changing the 190pf cap to 150 and 220 and that seems to have change the operating frequency by couple of tens of kHz. Otherwise I did not have to adjust anything, the circuit is self-regulating once the oscillations begin.

Power is supplied from the rail in the middle, connected to a 12V gel battery via alligator clips (out of frame).

hoptoad

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #688 on: November 19, 2007, 05:30:33 AM »

Previous quote "The circuit apparently oscillates at ~1.5MHz and uses ~32mA of current from my 12V gel battery though that figure seems to fluctuate up and down, I've seen it go up to 70mA when I was probing points with my scope but that's just temporary."

Photo is attached (turned out pretty nice in close-up). :)

Assuming 35 ma is the real average for the point of reference, then just 3 LEDS running at that current would account for 12 V x .035 = 420 milliwatts. You have what appears to be 20 LEDS running very brightly  :o  :o
Just how brightly! is the key question to me. Things "look" very promising from here.

Great Job Amigo.  ;)

KneeDe...


hansvonlieven

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #689 on: November 19, 2007, 05:35:17 AM »
So now that this works how do we get rid of the battery altogether? ;D

Burn it ???

Hans von Lieven