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Author Topic: TPU - General Discussion  (Read 219572 times)

Offline tao

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Re: TPU - General Discussion
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2007, 06:39:25 PM »
I am certain SM measured 7.3 Hz, and was not saying this because it happens to be close to the SR.

I like Marco, and respect his work, but I am not convinced his magnet demo illustrates tapping the SR. There have been no replications I know of supporting this notion, and Marco himself has not demonstrated the same effect and frequency with different mass magnets. Until such time, I don't buy into this tapping effect at all.

Agreed, a test must be done first to duplicate marco's results, and a tests done with differing sized magnets to confirm the 7.8Hz effect isn't based on that particular setup.

Quote
It is curious however that the 7.3 Hz and 5-6 kHz frequencies are specifically quoted by SM. Clues from his material does not suggest these frequencies are applied by the controller. Perhaps they manifest as an artifact of the actual applied frequencies and how they interact in the coils.

I agree about this also, the 5-6khz frequencies, like the low Hz vibration, could all just be artifacts from the conversion process which uses totally different frequencies.

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Re: TPU - General Discussion
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2007, 06:39:25 PM »

turbo

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Re: TPU - General Discussion
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2007, 08:38:08 PM »
i have seen it a dozen times in dozen diffrent setups.
it is like a crank shaft with some resistance but when you feed it with the right frequency, it moves more freely like if you put a drop of grease on it.

I simply cannot tape everything i do, it is not that hard to do these simple but intresting experiments, and if i am able to generate these events, so can you,or anybody who is willing to see....

Steven sais the unit vibrates at 7 point 3 cycles a second.
In the other video he states when the frequency's "slap" together, it has an effect.

He was a Speaker designer, take in account the cork like substance it could be used to allow the coils to vibrate at such low frequency's.
we dont need a cone, because we cannot hear that low and it isn't a speaker....or is it?
Then we move to an ultra low frequency microphone.
If we cancel the flux, or demodulate the signals so to speak, the outcoming wave will be the sound which was already present...
if we amplify this sound and feed it in reverse or out of phase, back into the system it will build up a resonance with the sound which was/is already there.
Steven once said "It should be a lot easer to use tubes to strike the right cord and
develop the right sound to make the best sound."

Take a simple voice coil, look at it as if it was the collector.
how can we produce power from a voice coil?
we need to move the cone, but it seems there isn't any.....
So we have to move the magnet , or the field.
What about a magnetic cone then...
If the cone is magnetic ,not paper or whatever they make them these day's, the frequency would still be dependent on the circumference, but it's medium would not be air, it would be magnetic fields.....
Then the microphone would not pick up sound waves but magnetic waves,like the humm.

I am working hard again to finance my next set of experiments and i will try to find a way to record my findings so i can share them with them who are intrested.

Marco.




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Offline acerzw

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Re: TPU - General Discussion
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2007, 10:10:40 PM »
Marco,

That is a very interesting take on the idea, I think as you are doing it is really important to focus in on the what SM knew, how he thought as an audio engineer. He discovered this by accident, he did not setup complicated rigs at the start with complicated controllers etc. From his writings you get the impression that it was discovered as an artifact  of something else he was doing. He then entered into a long development time to improve the power output performance etc, by analysing the effect and enhancing it by tuning or modifying the coil, finding the best material to use and then designing an effective control circuit and feedback mechanism to make it self-running.

I am convinced the basic effect is simple, was discovered in error during his other projects? I think he stated somewhere what he was working on when he discovered the effect. We need to find out about that and then work from there.

He also states that he has given away too much, enough to build a working replication from his point of view, so in order to make the best use of it we need to adopt his point of view.

In order to try and contribute to this effort and encourage this idea I am going to do a re-working of all the information that he has given on the matter and then post if for all. I have learnt a lot from everyone on here, for which I am very grateful so hopefully I can give a bit back.

Acerzw...

Offline EMdevices

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Re: TPU - General Discussion
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2007, 10:40:11 PM »
I like what you're saying marco and I tend to agree.

I am conviced of one thing,   SOMETHING RESONATES inside the TPU, hence the need to TUNE to the right frequency.

What that SOMETHING is, we need to find out.  

There can be a lot of things/phenomena and modes that resonate.


1) is it acoustic vibrations?  (like a tunning fork)
2) is it magnetostriction resonance?  (also related to acoustic/mass movement)
3 is it simple magnetic/mass resonance?  (restoring force is magnetic field)
4) is it simple electromagnetic resonance? (like in a LC tank)
5) is it longitudinal electromagnetic standing wave type of resonance? (like in Tesla Coils)
6) etc..

Because the TPU loses it's signal when upside down, it's so obvious that it behaves like an antenna. 
So, an antenna receiving system will need a high Q resonant tank to amplify the small signals.  That's why I say there has to be something that resonates.

Now, if it's not an antenna, and it still resonates (like SM says), then we still need a resonating tank.  Either way, there is a RESONATING TANK of sorts employed by the TPU. 

EM

P.S.   Lately I've been thinking it's MAGNETOSTRICTION.   That's why my TPU uses ..... IRON.... wire  :)


Quote
The ferromagnetic materials used in magnetostrictive position  sensors are transition metals such as iron, nickel, and cobalt.   In these metals, the 3d electron shell is not completely filled, which allows the formation of a magnetic moment. (i.e., the shells closer to the nucleus than the 3d shell arc complete, and they do not contribute to the magnetic moment). As electron spins are rotated by a magnetic field, coupling between the electron spin and electron orbit causes electron energies to change. The crystal then strains so that electrons at the surface can relax to states of lower energy. When a material has positive magnetostriction, it enlarges when placed in a magnetic field; with negative magnetostriction, the material shrinks. The amount of magnetostriction in base elements and simple alloys is small, on the order of 10-6 m/m.


... and so energy swoops in to our TPU    :)


Offline BEP

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Re: TPU - General Discussion
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2007, 11:03:36 PM »
@EM

When you are working with magnetostriction please watch one thing that is generally missed.

Even if your scope says a higher frequency is there - touch the core with your fingers - see if you can notice movement or mechanical pulsing. You should and that frequency can be thousands of times slower that what the scope says.
If your core is made of multiple elements and you do have the low frequency pulsing you should see the elements (separate wires?) constrict and relax like a jerking muscle.

Steel wire does not do well with this. Better is annealed(Sp?) iron wire. The core material cannot be held too tight in-place. Tight means restricted movement. Too loose and you burn a coil ;)

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Re: TPU - General Discussion
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2007, 11:03:36 PM »
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Offline EMdevices

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Re: TPU - General Discussion
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2007, 11:26:08 PM »
thanks for that insight BEP

here's a diagram to illustrate one of the phenomena associated with magnetostriction

EM

stay tuned for more....

Offline b0rg13

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Re: TPU - General Discussion
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2007, 11:32:06 PM »
I am certain SM measured 7.3 Hz, and was not saying this because it happens to be close to the SR.

I like Marco, and respect his work, but I am not convinced his magnet demo illustrates tapping the SR. There have been no replications I know of supporting this notion, and Marco himself has not demonstrated the same effect and frequency with different mass magnets. Until such time, I don't buy into this tapping effect at all.

It is curious however that the 7.3 Hz and 5-6 kHz frequencies are specifically quoted by SM. Clues from his material does not suggest these frequencies are applied by the controller. Perhaps they manifest as an artifact of the actual applied frequencies and how they interact in the coils.

to be honest im so blond when it comes to that stuff i have noidea how it might work, but for a simple person like my self , this is what i see. a big circle about 6in acorss(in the small ones), noidea how many layers or wire going around and around, but thats what i think i see, then i think i see wire configed in exact places, one again i have noidea how many turns or where to put them, for me its even hard to tell how many.. maybe 3 or 4 bunches of it( wire wound around the main circle, is what i think i see), but i dont know what im really looking at,.... lets say if i had to take a wild guess, so that some one can answer and i get a better understanding....there is a main circle or wire ....say 6in .. and 3 bunches of wire wraped around that...you some how have the *something* set on each bunch ?to make a freq?...starting with 5khz then 6khz then 7khz ?....and this whips electrons ( or something ) around in the main wire circle to produce useable power?.....
.. if some one wants to draw a pic with lables and arrows for what is *ment* to in *theory* happen .. but its looks so simple in the vids, but i have no clues here.. i need pictures to get it moving in my head:).. Bolt seems to try and bring it back to basics, somtimes i can almost understand him , just sounds way more complicated than what my little brain sees :).

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Re: TPU - General Discussion
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2007, 11:32:06 PM »
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Offline EMdevices

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Re: TPU - General Discussion
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2007, 11:42:20 PM »
Ok, guys,

This is very important.  I think I found the foundation article for the TPU, related to the theory of Magnetostriction.  

I sure hope this is it !!!  

So many clues relate here.  Iron wire.  Vibrations.  Kicks (as in physical motion), cork to dampen vibrations in the 17" TPU, etc..

I'm starting a massive effort to investigate these principles, for they relate electric waves and mass waves (acousting sound in wire) which travel at approximately 3000 m/s,  orders of magnitude slower then EM waves, so we can resonate easily at LOW SCHUMANN FREQUENCIES and tap into the earth magnetic field, like SM says.  :)

Here's a picture from the article, and the article itself.  

EM
« Last Edit: October 04, 2007, 12:07:16 AM by EMdevices »

Offline zapnic

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Re: TPU - General Discussion
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2007, 11:50:22 PM »
i have to ask i am new

is that fluorescent light starter.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2579.0.html

and look like there is four or three of then?



Offline EMdevices

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Re: TPU - General Discussion
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2007, 12:01:27 AM »
Oh, and check out this paragraph: 

Quote
An important characteristic of a wire made of a
magnetostrictive material is the Wiedemann effect (see
Figure 2). When an axial magnetic field is applied to a
magnetostrictive wire, and a current is passed through
the wire, a twisting occurs at the location of the axial
magnetic field. The twisting is caused by interaction of
the axial magnetic field, usually from a permanent
magnet, with the magnetic field along the magnetostrictive
wire, which is present due to the current in the wire.
The current is applied as a short-duration pulse, -1 or
2 µs
; the minimum current density is along the center
of the wire and the maximum at the wire surface. This
is due to the skin effect.

and photo #2 is attached.    Notice the AXIAL magnet and the effect it has.

Once again, another clue is here:   The aplication of the magnet.

So the TPU could employ TWISTING RESONANCE along a wire length, a core, etc. Or it could just use the longitudinal mode of magnetostriction

EM

REF:  (http://www.sensorland.com/HowPage024.html)

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Re: TPU - General Discussion
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2007, 12:01:27 AM »
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Offline tao

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Re: TPU - General Discussion
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2007, 12:10:44 AM »
Ok, guys,

This is very important.  I think I found the foundation article for the TPU, related to the theory of Magnetostriciton.  

I sure hope this is it !!!  

So many clues relate here.  Iron wire.  Vibrations.  Kicks (as in physical motion), cork to dampen vibrations in the 17" TPU, etc..

I'm starting a massive effort to investigate these principles, for they relate electric waves and mass waves (acousting sound in wire) which travel at approximately 3000 m/s,  orders of magnitude slower then EM waves, so we can resonate easily at LOW SCHUMANN FREQUENCIES and tap into the earth magnetic field, like SM says.  :)

Here's a picture from the article, and the article itself.   

EM


There you go again EM, lol. Awesome find my friend. Now it looks like 90 ES coupling isn't the only theory I am going to 'borrow' from you, hahah.  :D

This reminds me of something I remember SM saying, I need to look later tonight for the reference, but I think I remember SM saying that he couldn't say exactly what materials or combination of wire types where used in the 'collector'. It sort of seemed at the time that the collector wasn't just 'copper' if you know what I mean, I have to find that reference...

This all seems to fit perfectly though. Time for me to read that paper you found...

 ;D

Offline EMdevices

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Re: TPU - General Discussion
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2007, 12:18:23 AM »
Here's a possible setup for the TPU with the above understanding.

Notice that these magnetostrictive effects are REVERSIBLE.
That means if you deform the material it produces a voltage.
It's the same stuff as piezo effects with electric fields, except this is magnetic phenomena.

You see, one magnet could be twisting through 90 degrees, and the other compensating and reverting back. There are so many possibilities here. I'm not saying this is the exact config, but I think we're in the ball park as far as the PHENOMENA employed by SM in the TPUs.

Everything we have said before about mixing signals etc, can still apply here.  The logic and pulsing circuits will work the same, but hopefully, with this setup, we can do away with ALL ELECTRONICS, and just build a resonating magnetostrictive wire at the exact Schumann frequency and capture the energy right out of the air !!!
 

EM


Offline BEP

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Re: TPU - General Discussion
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2007, 01:57:14 AM »
@EM

Don't take this the wrong way but you are really starting to tickle my fancy.

Don't throw out you breadboard kit just yet.

Imagine if just below each of those magnets you had a high impedance coil held inside a paramagnetic 'inverted U' form. The purpose of which was to force the field of that magnet to rapidly change orientation? Not only would you twist the iron one way but you would also twist it back the other way. At a minimum this coil could be used to alternately cancel the field from the magnet.




Offline EMdevices

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Re: TPU - General Discussion
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2007, 02:31:57 AM »
interesting theory BEP, I'm getting all excited here as well. :)

I'm starting to lean towards the longitudinal strain, but the twist strain can also be the mode of operation. 

Anyhow, here's another diagram to a piece of wire that is in LONGITUDINAL RESONANCE.   That means that it is not visible to the unaided eye, in other words, there is no movement you can see to the SIDE or transversly, all displacement is along the axis of the rod (hence the name LONGITUDINAL)

Now,  SM said he CUTS THE WIRE TO A DESIRED LENGTH.  

This now explains it perfectly.  You cut the wire to the right length for the frequency.


So, if we want half a wavelength resonance at 100 Hz, assuming a 3000 m/s acoustic speed, we find the wire length as follows:

Wavelength = (3000 meter/sec ) / (100cycles/sec) = 30 meters

so

Wire Length = Wavelength/2 = 30 meters / 2  = 15 meters


That's not a bad length to work with.  But like I said before, all the other signal techniques like heterodyning etc can still be used to mix down.   Basicaly, we now have a high Q resonator structure which is very simple,  A SIMPLE WIRE  and we can couple to it WITH ELECTRICITY AND COILS.


Ok, here's a game plan.   Let's just try to resonate a simple wire length like I show in the diagram.

Place a coil around this wire, BUT FIRST WRAP THE WIRE IN FOAM SO IT'S FREE TO RESONATE.

That's my goal now.

EM

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Offline EMdevices

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Re: TPU - General Discussion
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2007, 03:08:55 AM »
Here's a better explanation of the OPEN TPU.

EM

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Re: TPU - General Discussion
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2007, 03:08:55 AM »

 

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