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Author Topic: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas  (Read 109181 times)

Offline Inventor81

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I'm a chemical engineer interested in the Meyer type high voltage "electrolysis", and will when I get the time investige more into this.
...

1. Using Faraday law..or
2. Using the measured collected H2/O2 gas volume and do a pure mole and energy calculation

Both of these methods should lead to same answer which is;

In a collected volume of O2/H2 gas the amount of hydrogen energy will be 7744 Joules pr liter collected gas.

It was my understanding that the faraday law stated something along the lines of 250KJ per mole of water. This is roughly 250KJ per 1.5 liters of collected gas - i.e. 1 mole of H2 and .5 moles of O2 from one mole of water, or 18 grams. This neglects any H2O vapor in the collected sample, but this is certainly not going to double the weight (and hence the volume at 1atm) of the sample?

I have used a two-plate device to generate hydrogen with virtually zero ohmic heating  (sub-microsecond pulses @ 200KW) and came up with a result of approximately 240KJ per liter of hydrogen. This also agrees with Faradays law.

Just so you know, about this point in the post, my forward slash and quotation mark keys stopped working. My laptop is also running at about ten billion degrees celsius. Not sure what is going on all of a sudden.

annnnyhow.... Faraday gives the result that at 14.5VDC, 30A, (keep in mind that voltage does not matter with Faraday)

I should get .0045 moles of hydrogen in 14.5 seconds.

In the same period of time, I have seen a half liter of HHO produced. By my back of the envelope calculations, this runs to about .33 moles of H2.

The cell in question is running at 435Watts - DC, so P=VI works here without RMS considerations. multiplying by the time, to get joules, we see 6307.5J for .33 moles. Multiply by 3, and thats about 18.9KJ per mole of hydrogen. OR, 18.9KJ per 1.5 liters of HHO. Even if we guess that 100% of the gas is monoatomic, we thus double the joules per mole H2, and wind up with just heavy of 37KJ per mole of hydrogen, or per 1.5 liters of HHO, monoatomic.

This is my question - why does Nernst and Faraday indicate 250KJ per mole, but everyone is quoting 7KJ per mole or so?

Where does this ridiculoulsy low number come from? If I recall correctly, the heat of formation of water is the same 250KJ per mole... Just look it up in a CRC manual.

Here is a nice link that illustrates why I think this cell is only using 7% of the energy it should...

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/thermo/electrol.html

ok now i will reboot and attempt to edit this post with forward slashes. GRRR!
* forward slash problem fixed*

other than that, heres my opening shot on the forum so to speak. Take care, and happy hunting for overunity!


« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 10:42:27 AM by Inventor81 »

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Offline ba2ho

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #46 on: June 01, 2008, 04:05:39 AM »
Someone plug this in

130v @ 10 amps /12 L/M ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I90IcfqS9MU&feature=related





Offline buzneg

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #47 on: July 22, 2008, 08:22:14 AM »
if this is true then lots of peolpe are getting overunity. The above post would be 180% efficient, and other's I no of would be around 200% efficient.

Offline felix.lamet

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2008, 09:31:43 AM »
Hallo,

is there a "step by step guide" to build a cell like that in the video of the first thread?

I am also building HHO cells, but my cells are not very effective, some help and information would be great.

felix


Offline ashtweth_nihilisti

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #49 on: July 23, 2008, 03:55:56 PM »
Yes, water is almost abundant and when we can run a generator just
on water we will have enough energy to make desalinated water from the
ocean waters and pour it into the deserts to grow food for everyone.

We can clean up then the whole pollution too.


Where are you going to put the waste salt by product  :)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #49 on: July 23, 2008, 03:55:56 PM »
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Offline triffid

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #50 on: July 23, 2008, 09:13:19 PM »
test

Offline Visual Echo

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2008, 09:26:10 PM »
Where are you going to put the waste salt by product  :)

On chips (french fries)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2008, 09:26:10 PM »
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Offline ashtweth_nihilisti

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #52 on: August 05, 2008, 01:57:12 AM »
There are around 42 trace elements in "salt" the table salt you eat has 2 of them(bad) , so is not therapeutic. Also if you study ecology you know that the earth cannot balance salt elsewhere.

it is at best a Small  solution,(not viable long term) salt destroys land and this salt cannot be eaten with proper health effects, French fries are bad for you too ;)

Ash

Offline HHOwanabe

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #53 on: August 06, 2008, 09:26:15 PM »
I am new to this HHO generation and have just started some testing on a small scale.  I wanted to post some of my findings, and since the posts on this forum seem to include test results, I decided to post here.  Hopefully, my findings will spark some new ideas.

I am using a 12V battery from my Makita drill.   My ?cells? are constructed using a nylon bolt, washers, and nuts with 2, 1 ?? SS washers as the plates, and a 14g copper wire (against each plate) for battery connection.  I am (for now) putting these cells in a small plastic bowl of water and cannot measure HHO production, so I decided to measure the circuit characteristics.  The circuit is defined as the battery and one or more cells connected together.  For HHO generation, I am simply observing how much bubble production there is, assuming there will be some equivalent amount of HHO to bubble ratio.   Like everyone else?s testing, I have noticed bubble production is based on the separation of the cell plates, how many cells there are, and how the cells are connected.

My battery started at ~13.7V and has drained down (with testing) to ~12.5V.  First, I tested 1 cell with 3 spacers between plates (~2mm) and got a current of ~.38A and decent bubbles.  Next, I took one spacer out of the cell (~1.5mm) and the current went up to ~.48A with much better bubble production.  I settled on this cell configuration and built a second cell. I connected the two cells in series in the circuit and measured ~.18A with a total bubble production (between both cells) of maybe the same as just one cell.  Next, I connected the two cells in parallel and measured ~.68A to ~.88A with 2 ? 3 times the bubble production as one cell!  (NOTE: current started at ~.68A and went up to .88A in about 30 sec.)

So, what kind of electrical component are these cells?  I started out assuming they were acting like resistors.  When I tried to measure the resistance across a cell (in dirty water), the measurement started at ~400 Ohms and climbed to well over 3000 Ohms over ~30 sec.  When I put the cell in clean water, could not get readings.  Then, I decided to measure voltage.  Well, in (dirty) water the cell had ~.44V across the terminals!  I took the cell out of the water, but is was still wet, and it still measured ~.2V.  After about 1.5 hrs of drying out, it finally measured 0V.  So, what kind of electrical component are these cells?  Resistors?  Capacitors?   Semiconductors?   Or some other (new) kind of electrical component?  Will understanding this help in determining WFC design and what kind of circuit with how much total power would be the most efficient?

Offline handyandy

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #54 on: August 13, 2008, 07:18:58 PM »
hi first time posting here after doing research...

I have not seen here or anyone else use gram measurements of cell before and after electrolysis always measurement of liters or ml of gas produced.  Seeing as volume fluctuates due to temp...

p.s. I have not done this yet

Andy

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #54 on: August 13, 2008, 07:18:58 PM »
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Offline CrazyEwok

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2009, 02:48:51 AM »
lol... you know i hope none of you here with these calculations of thousands of liters per minute actually get a cell or setup that can actually create this... Your gonna blow your entire engine apart... Your calculations are based purly on the petrol numbers... i think you should consider the explosive force and rate at which HHO burns before you start throwing numbers around on what you need to run a car. Lets consider some points first. You will need something in your cylinder besides HHO and atmosphere in order to slow the reaction down (and to cool your exhaust valves) alot of people run steam to do both in high end performance cars. There is now a 3rd item to put into your ratio equation. HHO : Atmosphere : Steam ratio's.
Also being the budding scientists that you are (yes all sarcasm intended) what is the explosive force of HHO compared to petrol??? I hear numbers of around 2.5 times being thrown around (and that is calculated on explosive force) so now to get the same bang per cycle you should be dividing your required amount by 2.5 minimum. Next off the bat is to those of you wanting to run a closed system with HHO... It has been reported that pure HHO when ignited IMPLODES at 4x the power of normal reaction. THATS 4 TIMES THE POWER OF YOUR 2.5 TIMES THE POWER OF PETROL!!! AND IMPLODES i can't see anyone flooding their engine with excessive amounts off straight HHO having it implode mid cycle causing any problems when their cyclinders try to eat their block from the amounts of force they will have to withstand (be aware that engines are designed to run on EXplosive reactions not INplosive) BUT!!! i may be wrong and if you guy do run engines on a closed cycle HHO can you film it and also if/when your engine eats its own cyclinders can you put it on youtube...

Ok so now the sarcasm is out the way some serious thoughts... Off a guestimate from previous experiances i would say you would need a way of distributing your HHO better. From the look of things most peoples cells "might" be able to run an engine (don't get excited) but your delivery system is now where you need to look at things. i would say its now your "air to fuel ratio" that is screwing this up. There is no way you will be able to create enough HHO to feed the vacuum of your air intake to run your car BUT if your not going to use petrol there is now a "free" port that could be used as a controlled delivery system...

Offline Kator01

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #56 on: May 21, 2009, 12:50:24 PM »
Hi Inventor81,

Quote
It was my understanding that the faraday law stated something along the lines of 250KJ per mole of water. This is roughly 250KJ per 1.5 liters of collected gas - i.e. 1 mole of H2 and .5 moles of O2 from one mole of water, or 18 grams

Now if you go back to the hyperphysic-link you can read that
237 kJ are necessaray to create 1 Mol of H2 and 1/2 Mole of Oxygen. All numbers there are based on the SATP-Condition ( Standard Ambient temperature ) that is  298 K which is about 25 Celsius.
1 Mol of hydrogen has a volume of 22,4 Ltr and 1 Mol of Oxygen 11,2 Ltr but these numbers are related to 273 Kelvin or 0 celsius !

So numbers are given in different books based on different conditions which is very confusing.

Now, I am not well versed in thermodynamics and have to research the literature for the correct calculation of the Gas-Volumina of 1 Mol Hydrogen at 25 Celsius.
Based on this :  1 Molvolumen of H - lets make a guess of 28 Ltr – will reduce the figures of necessary production-energy for 1 Ltr H-Gas to :
237 Kj / 28 Ltr = 8.46 KJoule per 1 Ltr H-Gas whis is the same as 8460 Watt-sec. 8460 Watt-sec / 3600 sec = 2.35 Watt-Hours.

Now compare this with what Stefan has stated in the first post
in this thread.

Best thing to do a good measurement is to produce a bigger amount of gas ( l would say 150 Ltr HHO ) because the influence of the measurement-failure-rate is bigger with a small volumina produced.

I would produce 150 Ltr of HHO then divide 100 Ltr/ 28 ltr ( 1Mol) = 3.57 Mole and the multiply 237 KJ x 3.57 = 846 KJ.

846 Kj equal 846 000 Wattsec/ 3600 sec = 235 Watt Hours.

With a power-supply of 12 Volt and 10 Ampere this 150 Ltr HHO should be produced in a little less than 2 hours.

You also have to take into account the rising temperature during the process and this is another reason that you should first let the cell run until temperature has leveled and then start Volumen-measurement.

By the way 250 Kj for 1.5 HHO-Gas- as you have stated - is totally wrong.

Regrads

Kator01



Offline llewgnal

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #57 on: June 12, 2009, 01:02:41 AM »
  Yes the only real way to get a real reading instead of an approximation is to run a real time digitally monitoring program and a lot of sensors.

Offline newbie123

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2009, 09:22:46 PM »
Any formula that disregards temperature and pressure will be inaccurate.

In electrolysis,  the change in Gibbs Free Energy (ΔG)  is 237.18 kJ.  This energy  represents the total  electrical input energy required to electrolyze 1 mole of H2O with 100 percent energy efficiency (at 298K with  one atmosphere pressure (or 101.325 kPa))...

1 mole of H2O electrolyzed will produce  one mole of H2 (gas), and a half mole of O2 (gas). 

We can figure out the actual volume with the following:

Using the ideal gas law:  pV = nRT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal_gas_law

or:     V = (nRT / p)

We know 1 mole of H2 gas has a volume of   24.453 L    (at 298K and 101.325 kPa)      and .5 moles of O2 will have a volume of half of this:  12.226L

The total H2 O2 gas generated would be  36.679 L

So with 237.18 kJ input energy...   or  65.883 Watt-Hours

you should generate (36.68L / 60 Minutes)   .6116 Liters per Minute (LPM)  at 65.883 W

And  generate:

1 LPM for every 107.71 Watts (at 298k / 101.325 kPa)

The MMW would be 9.28



If the temperature of your gas is higher, or the pressure is lower it will appear that you're generating more H2/O2 than you actually are...

Also, the electrolyte temperature will change   Î”G  as well.

« Last Edit: June 20, 2009, 06:06:29 AM by newbie123 »


Offline JimH

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #59 on: August 11, 2009, 09:58:16 PM »
Hello... Newbie to the forum... I think   ??? I'm sure I was a member a few years ago but I can't remember my password or user name...  ;D  Had a bad accident and it's taken a few years to get back on my feet... fine now though.

I've been using Oystla's formula to calculate for years and it works fine for my general experiments.
I've been using rain water successfully for years without additives... acidic rain, I know...
I've been concentrating on heat reduction... but with reasonable hydrogen production and my latest set-up just might be the ticket... LOL... anyway, it looks good at the minute... I'll be testing it over the next few days to make sure that I haven't messed up.
 

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #59 on: August 11, 2009, 09:58:16 PM »

 

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