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Author Topic: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas  (Read 113343 times)

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2007, 12:05:00 AM »
Yes, Stefan

of course, you are right, So your original proposal was not far off anyhow.

But since the experimenters collect their gas generally through bubblers and measure volume, I would say my formula is more straight forward to use for calculating efficiency.

Hi ?ystein,
but your formular for:
3,52 watt hrs pr liter PURE H2
is not so good,
cause all the people working on this mostly directly
produce mixed H2 and O2 gas, so they do not seperate the gases
and to know,
that they just have to break the barrier of 2.15 Watthours of energy is more easy for them,
cause they then can directly measure their HHO gas (mixed H2 and O2 gas) output.
But anyway, many thanks for putting up the right calculations..

Quote

Another item; I get warnings from my security software of "spyware" when I open your website, and it states "ads.adbrite.com/adserver/....."

Anything to warry about ?
regards
?ystein

Well, this is just a different text ad provider, but as it seems, that they
can not provide any ads, I will drop them out again.
Nothing to worry.
Regards, Stefan.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2007, 01:10:45 AM by hartiberlin »

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Offline d3adp00l

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2007, 07:34:50 AM »
I am having a time trying to convert 2.15 watthours per litre into  XXXX (millilitre/minute)/watt. Does anyone want to give it a go for me. I keep getting numbers that are erroneous.


Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2007, 07:45:31 AM »
Again:

Energy input in Watthours = used (Volts x amps)  x used time in seconds / 3600 seconds =
used Watts  x used time in seconds / 3600 seconds

So let your HHO gas generator produce 1 Liter of HHO gas= 1000 milliLiters HHO gas and measure the time
in seconds it needs to produce this amount of gas.

Then note the DC Voltage and DC amps down and multiply it to get the Watts.
( e.g. 12 Volts and 10 amps )
Then multiply with the seconds it needed to produce 1 Liter and divide this by 3600.
Then you have the Watthours of energy it needed to produce 1 Liter of HHO gas.

Now if you get less than 2.15 Watthours you have overunity.
If you have more than 2.15 Watthours you have less than 100 % efficiency and are underunity.


So the above example would be, if it takes 60 seconds to fill
up the 1 Liter bottle of HHO gas with 12 Volts at 10 amps :

12 Volts x 10 amps x 60 seconds / 3600 = 2 Watthours per Liter
and you would be overunity, cause it is less than 2.15 Watthours

Regards, Stefan.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2007, 09:46:53 AM by hartiberlin »

Offline d3adp00l

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2007, 08:08:51 AM »
Alright taking the time to figure it, it now looks like 7.75 (ml/min)/watt is the goal. Sorry stephan I don't like the kilowatt measurement, just a personal method, right now my best data is good but not good enough.


Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2007, 08:34:43 AM »
Yes, you are right,
7.75 milliLiters of HHO per Wattminute, that means for
1 Watt of input power 1 minute long applied to your electrolyzer.

Example:
If you have a 12 Volts DC battery and you power your electrolyzer with it,
you draw 0.0833 amps from it ( 1 Watt) into your electrolyzer for 1 minute constantly,
you must be able to produce more than 7.75 milliLiters of HHO gas.

If you draw more amps, so you have an input power of e.g. 100 Watts, you
must produce in that minute more than 100 x 7.75 mL= 775 mL= 0.775 Liters of HHO gas.

So to reach 1 Liter of HHO gas, you must not use more than 129 Watts of power
1 minute long.
So if you use a 12 Volts battery, you must use less than 10.75 amps for 1 minute long
to produce 1 Liter of HHO in 60 seconds to be overunity.

Or in other words:
if you apply 10.75 amps at 12 Volts  ( 129 Watts) you must be able
to produce 1 Liter HHO gas in
less than 60 seconds to be overunity !
If you need more than 60 seconds for 1 Liter HHO , then you are underunity....

Hope this helps.
Regards, Stefan.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2007, 10:09:49 AM by hartiberlin »

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2007, 08:34:43 AM »
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Offline oystla

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2007, 05:13:17 PM »
OK, once more;

Anyone collecting H2 and O2 gas together in a chamber and measuring the total volume in liters produced can use the following formula to calculate the efficiency of the electrolysis cell ;

EFFICIENCY = 7744* V1 / (U*I*t)   where

V1= Collected H2/O2 volume measured in liters
U = Electrical input voltage
I = Amperage during electrolysis
t = Time of electrolysis measured in seconds

multiply above by 100 to get % efficiency


regards
?ystein

Offline kinggeorge

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2007, 10:06:22 PM »
I had a post (Do not remember what forum) from someone Running (external powered) Electrolysis to Fuel Cell and its water by product back into Electrolyer cell. He reported that after a while FC woould take longer and longer to convert GAS, lower power from FC and at some point water had to be replaced, He felt that he may have been creating heavy water, but did not have analysis equipment.
George King
georgeking@cosmicsalamander.com


I've been playing around with water electrolysis for quite a while now.
A question: does your formula also apply for distilled water splitted in H2 and O2? Because HHO is a little different from H2O.
If so, then what about the following figures. To produce 10 cm3 of H2 and app. 5 cm3 O2 I need 2 volts and ,31 A during 300 seconds. And these are probably conservative numbers, because my measuring equipment is not the best there is. So the energy input is:
2V x ,31A x 300 secs/3600 secs
I know this is a slow process, but I got these values over and over again, although I ran into problems using the same water over and over again. It seems to me the characteristics of water are changing.
As power source I use a Philips PE 1512 Lab power supply and a common available electrolyzer.
But I have great difficulty in accepting this to be overunity.

Kind regards

« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 06:48:36 PM by kinggeorge »

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2007, 10:06:22 PM »
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Offline ForeverBlissed

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2007, 06:36:35 AM »
So the question I have is how many watts is required to run a typical car?

What about an SUV?

If we uses Miles per Gallon to figure for cars, how many Watts per Gallon is Water?

Let's assume that it takes 12 Volts times .5 Amps to produce 1 liter of Hydrogen within 60 seconds...

Is that enough Hydrogen to run a car?  What about an SUV?

It sure would be great to have a spreadsheet that did all of this calculations for us.

That way we could figure out that once we reach X number of liters of hydrogen per second, we have a usable system that will produce enough energy to run a car.

Anybody want to tackle this?  (it's a little out of reach of my math skills)

FB

Offline Humbugger

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2007, 06:47:06 AM »
So the question I have is how many watts is required to run a typical car?

What about an SUV?

If we uses Miles per Gallon to figure for cars, how many Watts per Gallon is Water?

Let's assume that it takes 12 Volts times .5 Amps to produce 1 liter of Hydrogen within 60 seconds...

Is that enough Hydrogen to run a car?  What about an SUV?

It sure would be great to have a spreadsheet that did all of this calculations for us.

That way we could figure out that once we reach X number of liters of hydrogen per second, we have a usable system that will produce enough energy to run a car.

Anybody want to tackle this?  (it's a little out of reach of my math skills)

FB


One horsepower is 745.7 Watts.  I'll contribute that well-known fact. 

Also, it sounds like 6W per liter per minute would be a fantastic achievement, about 21 times better than what Stefan is suggesting represents unity.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 07:16:38 AM by Humbugger »

Offline dlwammo

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2007, 07:44:40 AM »
For me, the formula is rather simple...

mpg(w/cell) > mpg(wo/cell)

anything else is just gravy...

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2007, 07:44:40 AM »
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Offline d3adp00l

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2007, 08:48:41 AM »
The amount of hho to run a vehicle has not been tested in a fashion the tells anything. No one to my knowledge has ran a car on hho and the published the results. So no know one knows if an engine need to consume 100% hho or if it an be mixed with air and still get enough power out of it to run the vehicle. The sad state of affairs with accurate data on hho is that the best info on burnable ratios comes from youtube and he was useing spice jars, and didn't seal it very well. And the test was not done under pressure as a piston in an engine would be. I am working in that direction, but first thing is first and thats to quantify the basics.

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2007, 11:23:18 AM »
WHEN TESTING THE EFFICIENCY OF AN ELECTROLYZER::::::::

The above posted calculations for calculating the efficiency are designed for electrolysis of Pure Water.
Contaminants (even electrolytes) effect this calculation.

Even if you plan to USE electrolytes in your device, efficiency tests should be done with Pure Water, as it s difficult to know the precise energy values of the electrolyte, and dissolution %, ect.

if you use an electrolyte during the efficiency testing, the above calculations may show over unity, but incorrectly so.


Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2007, 11:42:15 AM »
recent electric vehicles were reported to consume 200A @ 36v in order to travel 45 MPH.

so     Given 7744 Joules / (200x36) = roughly 1.08 seconds of motor run-time from 1 liter of gas?
that is assuming your fuelcell is converting H2+O into electricity+water at 100% efficiency.

Offline Omega_0

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2007, 11:43:47 PM »
As we all know, calculating/measuring the INPUT power is pretty easy. Just hook an ammeter and  voltmeter right after the battery.
OUTPUT measurement is more tricky and whatever was posted above will only give you theoretical output value. It is not necessary that you'd be able to use all that energy.

The only way to get its value is to BURN the gas (thats collected over a specified time (say 1 min)) and let it heat a known amount of water in a calorimeter. The rise in temperature of water will give you the useful energy produced. Of course it means that you need access to a precise calorimeter or a lab.

Another method is to drive a tabletop IC engine and connect a known load on its shaft. Use up the collected gas. The work done on the load is your actual output.

Another method is to use the heat generated by the gas to heat a thermoelectric junction and discharge it through a known resistor and measure the current as usual.

HHO just sitting there in a jar is totally useless. You must get the work out of it, that work is your actual output. Now you can happily divide it by the input and check whether its gives an USEFUL overunity.

I've seen many projects on HHO, that yell OU, but I've never seen anyone do a serious measurement. Whats with that?


Offline nedh20power

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2007, 07:20:41 PM »
Hello Stefan,

I'd like to make some clarification regarding your calculations of overunity for electrolysis.

1. Because a liter is a unit of volume, the mass of HHO gas in a liter will vary with ambient pressure and temperature according to the Ideal Gas Law, i.e.  PV = nRT.  Since energy release from burning HHO depends on mass rather than volume of the gas, it's better to assess overunity based on HHO mass produced by electrolysis.

2. Taking into account the rate of energy release from burning hydrogen, which is 142.35 kJ/g H, one can derive the following formula for estimating the expected energy release (Eh, kJ) from burning HHO gas produced via electrolysis of W grams of water:

Eh = 15.817*W   (in kJ)

This formula assumes that the HHO gas is pure and contains no other gases in its volume such as water vapor or air. So, for example, the electrolysis of 1 kg of water (i.e. 1000 g H2O) will produce HHO gas, which after burning will release 15.817*1000 = 15817 kJ of energy.

3. To assess the efficiency of electrolysis and whether it's overunity, one needs to calculate the electric energy (Ee, kJ) consumed to split W mass of water. This can be done using the formula:

Ee = 0.001*V*A*T  (in kJ)

where V is average voltage used (Volts), A is the average current consumed (Amps), and T is the time (in seconds) needed to split W mass of water. The constant 0.001 serves to convert Joules into kilojoules, so that Ee can be compared to Eh.

The efficiency of electrolysis (Eff, %) can then be computed as:

Eff = 100*(Eh/Ee)  (%)

Efficiency over 100% will indicate overunity.

Thank you,
- Ned Nikolov
« Last Edit: September 24, 2007, 07:43:39 PM by nedh20power »

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2007, 07:20:41 PM »

 

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