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Author Topic: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas  (Read 114940 times)

Offline hartiberlin

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Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« on: August 21, 2007, 08:18:30 PM »
Hi All,

here is a formular to calculate the energy needed to break the overunity barrier
in HHO gas production.

As the Faraday law states, that 100 % efficient electrolysis required about 2.4 Watthours
of energy for 1 Liter of HHO gas production you can now yourself calculate, what you are using
for your energy input.

Energy input in Watthours= used (Volts x amps)  x used seconds / 3600 seconds= used Watts  x used seconds / 3600 seconds

So let your HHO gas generator produce 1 Liter of HHO gas and measure the time
it needs to produce this amount of gas.

Then note the Voltage and amps down and multiply it to get the Watts.
Then multiply with the seconds and divide by 3600.

Now if you get less than 2.4 Watthours you have overunity.
If you have more than 2.4 Watthours you have less than 100 % efficiency and are underunity.

Regards, Stefan.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Sanction

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2007, 05:54:23 PM »
Understanding and applying these calculations above to my Hy-Dro-Gen,  with my last video, I have not reached overunity. Sorry bout that guys...

But with my most resent experiments "Not yet video taped, or documented, I did reach overunity with the final calculation at 1.3333.... To my understanding this is something not done before? If this is the case, I'm flattered!

To achieve this I ran my Hy-Dro-Gen at a very low 2 volts.
I had to add a great deal of electrolyte to reach Times 20 Amps. = 40 watts
It took 120 seconds to make 1 liter of HHO gas times 120 seconds = 4800
Then dividing by 3600 = 1.3333333333333333333333333333333333333333 ;)

Is this overunity? And what does this really mean?

Observations:

a: I have found that the temperature increase is directly related to the voltage. The lower the voltage the less heat developed in the electrolysis's process. I'm nearing a point of no need of a cooling system. It seems that the system is balancing it's self as I push closer to efficiency.

b: Also the water "tap" is staying allot cleaner then with the higher voltages.

If this is of interest, please feel free to chime in! If this is nothing new, I'm sorry for waisting everyones time. You may delete this post if it is of no use. Here is the link to my last experiment, "NOT OVERUNITY" I will try to get you proof of my overunity test as soon as possible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nAROmhiZsY

Thanks in advance for any help!
Sanction

PS: Stefan thanks for asking me to come here with my story!
« Last Edit: August 23, 2007, 06:32:19 PM by Sanction »


Offline Humbugger

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2007, 10:57:26 PM »
Good work Stefan,

That's a great bit of information.  I just wanted to remark that it is interesting how we don't count the value of the water consumed.  Is that just because water is so plentiful compared to volatile hydrocarbon fuels do you think?

I mean, if we were figuring for overunity in a gasoline or diesel engine application, we would only count the energy stored in the fuel and would never think to include the energy it required to obtain, extract, transport and refine it. 

Yet if we look at hydrogen as the fuel, we only count the energy required to extract it and we disregard the value of the source water itself.  Just because it is hugely abundant right now.  Is my thinking screwed up here?  Am I making any sense?  Not exactly, I know.

Sometimes, like with the whole ethanol fiasco and the hit put on corn and other feed stocks because of it, I think we get too focused on the immediate small cycle and forget about the wide-frame picture.  Oh, well...just another random thought...no particular point. 

Here in USA, we gripe about gasoline costs but seem happy to pay a buck or more for a liter of bottled tap water and create a trillion empty plastic bottles in the process!  Crazy!

Reminds me of the book "Gaviotas", though.  Ever read that one?  True story about a team of science and engineering experts trying to bring the gift of technology to a primitive Columbian Indian mountain village...the end result is quite revealing of our collective techno-folly and tunnel vision at times.

Humbugger

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2007, 11:06:45 PM »
Yes, water is almost abundant and when we can run a generator just
on water we will have enough energy to make desalinated water from the
ocean waters and pour it into the deserts to grow food for everyone.

We can clean up then the whole pollution too.


Offline mikestocks2006

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2007, 03:30:25 AM »
Plus when combining Hydrogen and Oxygen back to convert energy, the byproduct is also water, so for all practical purposes the system should be all recycling.
Good info. I think we had these discussions before too.

Also, combining the stoichiometric ratio of only the two dissociated gases (Hydrogen and Oxygen) it produces pure water in an endothermic implosive reaction.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2007, 03:30:25 AM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2007, 04:24:00 AM »
Understanding and applying these calculations above to my Hy-Dro-Gen,  with my last video, I have not reached overunity. Sorry bout that guys...

But with my most resent experiments "Not yet video taped, or documented, I did reach overunity with the final calculation at 1.3333.... To my understanding this is something not done before? If this is the case, I'm flattered!

To achieve this I ran my Hy-Dro-Gen at a very low 2 volts.
I had to add a great deal of electrolyte to reach Times 20 Amps. = 40 watts
It took 120 seconds to make 1 liter of HHO gas times 120 seconds = 4800
Then dividing by 3600 = 1.3333333333333333333333333333333333333333 ;)

Is this overunity? And what does this really mean?

Observations:

a: I have found that the temperature increase is directly related to the voltage. The lower the voltage the less heat developed in the electrolysis's process. I'm nearing a point of no need of a cooling system. It seems that the system is balancing it's self as I push closer to efficiency.

b: Also the water "tap" is staying allot cleaner then with the higher voltages.

If this is of interest, please feel free to chime in! If this is nothing new, I'm sorry for waisting everyones time. You may delete this post if it is of no use. Here is the link to my last experiment, "NOT OVERUNITY" I will try to get you proof of my overunity test as soon as possible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nAROmhiZsY

Thanks in advance for any help!
Sanction

PS: Stefan thanks for asking me to come here with my story!

@Sanction

well done.
YOu seem to be the second after user ravzz who did it.

Please report more about your low voltage cell.
Did you use the former cell construction ?
How did you design the 2 Volts power supply ?
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.

Offline d3adp00l

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2007, 08:10:26 AM »
@sanc I would love to see a detailed report on that cell.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2007, 08:10:26 AM »
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Offline bhags

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2007, 12:29:03 PM »
Hi everyone!
thanks to all of you and especially Stefan to keep this site up and running!

I think H2O electrolysis has great potential towards achieving over 1 output.
I am working on this and theoretically i am on right track! but before i make any claim(!!!!!) i want to be 100% sure and for this i need some info with proper evidence.

Howmuch electricity required in watt-hour (or kWh) to generate 1 lt of H2 from 10 lt of sea-water (or water with electrolyte)?
1. theortically ?
2. practically ?
please provide evidence to back your claim.

Howmuch electricity can be generated in watt-hour (or kWh) from 1 lt of H2 and 0.5 lt of O2?
1. theoretically ?
2. practically ?
please provide evidence to back your claim.

thanks in advance!

Offline xingu

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2007, 12:13:06 PM »
I've been playing around with water electrolysis for quite a while now.
A question: does your formula also apply for distilled water splitted in H2 and O2? Because HHO is a little different from H2O.
If so, then what about the following figures. To produce 10 cm3 of H2 and app. 5 cm3 O2 I need 2 volts and ,31 A during 300 seconds. And these are probably conservative numbers, because my measuring equipment is not the best there is. So the energy input is:
2V x ,31A x 300 secs/3600 secs
I know this is a slow process, but I got these values over and over again, although I ran into problems using the same water over and over again. It seems to me the characteristics of water are changing.
As power source I use a Philips PE 1512 Lab power supply and a common available electrolyzer.
But I have great difficulty in accepting this to be overunity.

Kind regards

Offline oystla

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas - CORRECTION of formula
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2007, 04:12:56 PM »
Hi all,

I'm a chemical engineer interested in the Meyer type high voltage "electrolysis", and will when I get the time investige more into this.

BUT; I NEED TO CORRECT THE EFFICIENCY STATEMENT THAT STEFAN PROPOSED;

First, There are two approaches that may be made into calculation efficiency of electrolysis;

1. Using Faraday law..or
2. Using the measured collected H2/O2 gas volume and do a pure mole and energy calculation

Both of these methods should lead to same answer which is;

In a collected volume of O2/H2 gas the amount of hydrogen energy will be 7744 Joules pr liter collected gas.

It is then assumed that the gas holds 20 degC and that the gas is saturated with water vapor.

Electrical energy is as known purely E (Joules) = Voltage * Amperage * electrolysis duration time

So efficiency of any electrolysis of Meyer farcturation of water, where H2 and O2 gas is collected together is;

EFFICIENCY = 7744* V1 / (U*I*t)   where

V1= Collected H2/O2 volume measured in liters
U = Electrical input voltage
I = Amperage during electrolysis
t = Time of electrolysis measured in seconds

multiply above by 100 to get % efficiency

So back to points 1 & 2;

I have confirmed that both methods leads to same rsult, and have made a word document that explains the details if any are interested.

I believe Stefan confused Watthrs with Amphrs. According to Faradays law, the electrical consumption is 2,4 amphrs pr liter PURE hydrogen produced.....this at ideal voltage which is 1,47 volts, which leads to 3,52 watt hrs pr liter PURE H2 produced.


Now then; A few on Youtube seems to have reached well over unity with Meyer type system, check out RAVI's results.....impressive allmost 1000% overunity

regards
?ystein

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas - CORRECTION of formula
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2007, 04:12:56 PM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2007, 03:35:16 AM »
Hi ?ystein,
many thanks for this correction.
Please can you post the WORD document or better in PDF format if you can ?

So you say that 1 liter  HHO ( H2 and O2 together) gas
has an energy value of 7744 Joules = 7744 Wattseconds.

So we only have to divide
7744 Wattseconds / 3600 seconds
to get:
2.15 Watthours of energy for 1 Liter of HHO gas.

So it is now the Faraday law barrier of 2.15 Watthours which you must be below to produce
1 Liter of HHO gas to be overunity.
Is this correct now ?

Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.

Offline kinggeorge

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2007, 05:14:22 AM »


IS this over unity or just better than Fariday process.  I assume that if you hurn liter of HOH you ate saying it wll release equall amount of energy?

With ICE losses and alternator losses looks OU point and and HOH self powered points are very far apart.
George King


Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2007, 06:58:05 AM »
Hi George,
100 % efficiency would only be 2.15 Watthours energy required for
1 Liter HHO gas for going from electric energy to HHO gas production.

Of course with added the low efficiency of the car motor of about 30 percent only
you still need to produce then even more HHO gas for this energy input.

But for the first time, just let us concentrate maybe to even
just half the gasoline consumption, so that would already be quite
an achievement, if you can run your car twice as long for the same
gasoline paid for cash..

Offline xingu

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2007, 09:50:36 AM »
I made some calculations too for another purpose but still usable in this situation:

Calculations on electrolysis of water (H2O)
Given
1 gram atom = atomic mass
1 gram mol   = molecular mass
Water = H2O, so 2 atoms H and 1 atom O
Question: how is the distribution of mass in 1 molecule of water (H2O) in % H and O.
Calculation
Atomic mass H= 1
Atomic mass O=16
So the Molecular mass H2O=1+1+16=18
Total mass of H in water=2/18x1%=11,11%
Total mass of O in water=16/18x1%=88,89%

Given
1 liter of water has a mass of 1000 gr and equals 1000 cm?
1 liter of molecular H has a mass of 0,09 gr, 1 liter of molecular O has a mass of 1,47 gr
Question: how many liters of H2 and O2 are contained in 1 liter of H2O
Calculation
For H2: Total mass of H in H2O 11,11% (See question above)
so 11,11%x1000 gr=111,1 gr of H
111,1/0,09x1 liter=1.234,44 liter H
For O2: Total mass of O in H2O 88,89% (See question above)
    So 88,89%x1000 gr= 888,90 gr of H
    888,90/1,47x 1 liter= 604,69 liter O

So in your case from 1 liter of water you get app. 1.800 liters of HHO gas.


Offline oystla

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Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2007, 02:37:01 PM »
Yes, Stefan

of course, you are right, So your original proposal was not far off anyhow.

But since the experimenters collect their gas generally through bubblers and measure volume, I would say my formula is more straight forward to use for calculating efficiency.

Also, this takes care of/assumes any water saturation, and that gas collected holds approximately 20 degC, 1 atm..

One thing that the experimenters should be aware off is that pressure may build up in the bubblers of some set ups, and will distort the mauserment, but not much I think...

Another item; I get warnings from my security software of "spyware" when I open your website, and it states "ads.adbrite.com/adserver/....."

Anything to warry about ?


regards
?ystein


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2007, 02:37:01 PM »

 

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