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Author Topic: Barbat low inertial mass generator  (Read 49008 times)

Offline karl

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Re: Barbat low inertial mass generator
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2007, 11:28:34 AM »
tak22,
how thick should this Cu(x)O(y) layer be? 50nm? 1?m?
Do you have an Idea of the thicknes?
I am familiar with technic's for oxide growing out of different material surfaces.
A small layer of the Cu-suface is sacrificed to grow up the oxide of the metal.
You can do it in humid atmosphere at elevated temperatures to speed up the growing process.
In natural conditions (20?, 60%humidity) it takes to long.
100% humidity (water bubbler) continiously led in an oven at 1000?C is used to grow up SiO out of an Si-Surface (single crystal wafer).
Under this conditions it takes several hours to grow up some 50-100nm of SiO2.
CuO should grow up much faster due to different material conditions.
The oxygen has to move through the already grown layer by diffusion to reach the underlying pure Cu.
This means the thickness is limited due to the decreasing growing factor over time.
This is the simplest technic.
I hope this helps you.
I think there are some developments using such CuO-lavers on Cu to build photon sensitive layers (solar sensitive structures).
Google on it. You should find the basics.
Best wishes
stay tuned
kaRLfunkel

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Re: Barbat low inertial mass generator
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2007, 11:28:34 AM »

Offline Rosphere

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Re: Barbat low inertial mass generator
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2007, 08:46:27 PM »
tak22,

Thank you for posting this interesting Barbat patent application.

I am contemplating a Bedini motor/charger as my next project.  Yet, this Barbat design tempts me with its lack of moving parts and higher claimed output potential.

However, as patents often do, it lacks specific replicate-able details; too many variables to tinker with after nothing happens.  'Did I do something wrong or is there something wrong with the design?'  There is also this to consider: http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/c5885.htm

With the Bedini device you have more specifics available and more folks that have been there to ask for help and advice.  But on the other hand, the output hides between these two batteries and makes no claims to being a 'self runner' as does the Barbat device.

Offline tak22

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Re: Barbat low inertial mass generator
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2007, 09:46:59 PM »
@rosphere

big thanks for giving this your attention, maybe I can convince you to have a second look,

too many variables, like a TPU?  :) :D ;)

good warning about the 'loose' CuO

yes there are variables, but not very many parts, and they are 'normal' parts. here's my approach:

- have two identical coils of copper, one shiny and new, the other oxidized (CuO) .
- pulse an input coil to radiate the shiny coil, measure what can be picked up on an output coil.
- repeat, but use the CuO coil.
- is there a difference?
- if yes, move on to optimizing and self resonating.

I believe I need a scope to do this, and I don't have one. If someone knows how to perform this experiment without a scope please speak up.

tak
« Last Edit: December 10, 2007, 04:27:56 AM by tak22 »

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Barbat low inertial mass generator
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2007, 09:57:35 PM »
Get a scope programme for your computer tak.

You can get some good free ones from the net. All you need to do is to build some sort of probe that limits the input into your sound card otherwise you will blow it up. It's not hard.

Start with the programme to which I posted a link here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3500.225.html  If you follow the thread a bit further there is some information on a possible probe.

Good luck

Hans von Lieven

Offline Rosphere

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Re: Barbat low inertial mass generator
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2007, 12:11:07 AM »
maybe I can convince you to have a second look

I believe that you can, my friend.  I like your testing approach.  I may have one channel left still working on my 'scope after I fried the other with a MOT, (what a bonehead move on my part.)

I do not have any pre-oxidized copper wire.  But I have been looking for methods to add a layer of oxidation to new copper.  Apparently, copper can react with various chemicals to produce films of various colors, green, blue, red, and the black CuO that we are after.  One web site mentioned that adding heat to one of the other colors, red or green, will convert it to black.  (I need to crawl back over the net to read more on this topic.)

I read that annealing copper in air will produce a film of CuO.  So, I heated some copper wire to a glow with a butane lighter and let it cool.  Most of the black film rubbed off easily and is most likely soot from the butane flame.  According to Hank Hill, "butane is a bastard gas."

So, then I tried this using a natural gas, stove-top, flame.  The blackening seemed superficial and not well distributed over the wire.

Copper does not oxidize as well as iron in the presence of water.  And when it finally does start to show oxidation it turns green, not black.

So, I'm thinking that H2O2 has more oxygen then water.  I put some copper in a 3%, 'over-the-counter', solution of H2O2, (hydrogen peroxide,) for an hour or so.  Nothing.

Then I tried electrolysis with a 9V battery and salt water.  The plus side blackened a bit, but not too much.

Then I tried electrolysis with a 9V battery and H2O2 solution.  No reaction; no ions.  So I added a bit of NaCl to add some ions.  The bubbling started like with the salt water.  But then, something different started to happen.  The solution started to go from clear to yellow to brown with darker brown blotches forming in the solution.

(I thought that this may be due to the salt and the H2O2 reacting together.  So I mixed the two in a separate container and it stayed clear.)

After several minutes, the water was a dark brown color.  I removed the copper wires.  The plus side had a thick coating that turned bright green when allowed to dry.  I heated this with the lower blue edge of my butane flame, (to attempt to reduce the soot deposits as I was too tired at that point to go downstairs to the kitchen.)  The flame picked up a green glow to it as the green film turned into a red film upon cooling.  Further heating turned it to a black coating.

Is this the CuO film that we are after?  I have no idea.  I need to find better sources of information and do more testing here before I wind any coils.

Like you, I think it is a good Idea to test with a magnification coil of clean copper and then one of oxidized copper.  But, in my case, I would like to make only one and test it before and after blackening the same coil.

This all that I can add at this point.  I will post more information as it is acquired.

If someone reading this has a simple and more direct method of creating a CuO film on 'fresh' copper wire, please post your method.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Barbat low inertial mass generator
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2007, 12:11:07 AM »
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Offline Rosphere

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Re: Barbat low inertial mass generator
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2007, 02:01:56 AM »
(http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7.0;attach=15029;image)

I ran the blackening test again.  I took photos this time.

This time I rinsed the blackened wire end in a clean, (without salt,) H2O2 bath before it had time to dry to a green color like the first trial.  I was hoping that the extra oxygen present, as compared to plain water, would convert that green film into black without the need for the heating process.

I also suspect that it may be the sodium or the chloride in the salt that is reacting with the air and turning the film green, as in the first trial.  So, not only was I hoping to drive any CuO variants to pure CuO, but I was also aiming to rinse the sodium and chloride out of the film.  I did see very fine bubbles coming off the film in the rinse process.

The result appears to be the right color, black.  (Sorry about the low-res photos; the film coverage appears to be thick and complete.) I think that it may be the CuO film that we are after.

Any chemistry majors out there care to post the reaction equations for this process?
« Last Edit: December 03, 2007, 02:22:13 AM by Rosphere »

Offline tak22

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Re: Barbat low inertial mass generator
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2007, 03:43:04 AM »
@rosphere and karl,
I can't really say how to create the 'correct' CuO film on wire and what it would look like, but I'm going to have to find one before I can start testing.

Once I get the wire oxidized I'll take a full length, cut it in half and clean/polish one piece for the control test, and use the oxidized piece for the Barbat effect .....

@Hans,
thanks for the PC scope links and info. I'll look into it, but I'll probably spring for something like this instead:
http://www.saelig.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=PSSA002&Category_Code=PSSA

It's the time of year to be thinking of toys :D

tak
« Last Edit: December 10, 2007, 04:30:41 AM by tak22 »

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Re: Barbat low inertial mass generator
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2007, 03:43:04 AM »
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Offline Rosphere

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Re: Barbat low inertial mass generator
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2007, 04:15:29 AM »
...I'll probably spring for something like this instead:
http://www.saelig.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=PSSA002&Category_Code=PSSA
It's the time of year to be thinking of toys :D
(http://www.saelig.com/miva/graphics/00000001/pds5022725.jpg)

Nice.  ;)

Offline Rosphere

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Re: Barbat low inertial mass generator
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2007, 06:51:24 PM »
I found a product at my local hobby store called, "BLACKEN-IT," made by, "A-West."  It is used by model railroad enthusiasts to blacken metal parts made of brass, steel, nkl/slvr, copper, zamac.  (Not for aluminum or stainless steel.)  Contains denatured alcohol, selenous acid & dilute copper chloride/copper carbonate.  Cost was US$ 8.00 for 4 fluid ounces.

(http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7.0;attach=15187;image)

I used this product to blacken a small 20 AWG coil and ran some tests using a multimeter.  At about 3kHz +/- 2kHz range I was able to see 5mV on the output coil using several volts on the input coil, (both made of 28 AWG wire.)  I put enough current on the input coil that it started to heat and soften the plastic straw and clear tape covering.

I removed the blackened magnification coil and I still saw 5mV on the output coil.

So, either this product does not make the CuO film that we are after here, my setup is wrong in some other way, or the concept has no merit.

Has anyone had any success with a Barbat replication?

Offline pese

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Re: Barbat low inertial mass generator
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2007, 07:38:51 PM »
interering patent.

how , i can find to that was was the HUBBARD - Device ??

Scematics here:

 http://pese.150m.com/hubb/index.html

Click on #21 !!



more
http://pese.150m.com/fe/


after this was working with wome watt?s

Hibbard have used "radium" to magnifie
the power to some hp. to drive
an boat , an car , also his
electricity at home.

Pese

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Barbat low inertial mass generator
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2007, 07:38:51 PM »
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Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Barbat low inertial mass generator
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2007, 08:00:54 PM »
G'day Rosphere,

You are after the wrong stuff, The black stuff is cupric oxide which you do not want, cuprous oxide is what you are after and this is red. This is what it should look like:

(http://sci-toys.com/scitoys/scitoys/echem/soldered_plate.jpg)

Here are complete instructions on how to create a solar cell with copper and cuprous oxide. Hope it helps.
Good luck.

http://www.exo.net/~jillj/activities/solarcell.pdf

Hans von Lieven
« Last Edit: December 08, 2007, 08:37:25 PM by hansvonlieven »

Offline Rosphere

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Re: Barbat low inertial mass generator
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2007, 08:55:54 PM »
You are after the wrong stuff, The black stuff is cupric oxide which you do not want, cuprous oxide is what you are after and this is red.

Here are complete instructions on how to create a solar cell with copper and cuprous oxide. Hope it helps.
Good luck.

http://www.exo.net/~jillj/activities/solarcell.pdf

Thank you, Hans.

I made a red coating at one time during my electrolysis wire sample tests.  I may give this a try.

However, the Barbat document, PatD25.pdf, specifically calls for, "dull black cupric oxide."  ???

As can be seen, making this free-standing bare-copper coil and getting the right coating is the hardest part of this configuration.  Perhaps the black on my current coil is not CuO, or if it is then it may be too thick.  Or maybe I should use red cuprous oxide, as you suggest?

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Barbat low inertial mass generator
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2007, 09:14:28 PM »
G'day again,

Barbat's patent relies on a photovoltaic effect. That occurs only with cuprous oxide, never with cupric oxide.

I am as puzzled as you as to why he would say this in his patent application. Besides just the cuprous oxide covered coil on its own would not create electrical potential. In other words the device as described in the patent does not work. There must be more to it than he is disclosing.

Hans von Lieven

Offline Rosphere

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Re: Barbat low inertial mass generator
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2007, 09:42:34 PM »

...the device as described in the patent does not work. There must be more to it than he is disclosing.

(http://school.discoveryeducation.com/clipart/images/clock.gif)(http://www.hangerfactory.com/www/61/files/blackthick.jpg)

Offline tak22

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Re: Barbat low inertial mass generator
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2007, 09:58:19 PM »
Barbat makes dozens of references to the energy-magnifying coil comprising either a photoconductor, a doped semiconductor, or a superconductor.

CuO (Copper (II) oxide) has application as a p-type semiconductor, because it has a narrow band gap of 1.2 eV. A P-type semiconductor (P for Positive) is obtained by carrying out a process of doping, that is adding a certain type of atoms to the semiconductor in order to increase the number of free (in this case positive) charge carriers.

I don't think we've discounted the patent yet ....

tak

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Re: Barbat low inertial mass generator
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2007, 09:58:19 PM »

 

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