Author Topic: A different approach, input appreciated (Read 11500 times)

d3adp00l · « **on:** April 12, 2007, 07:54:04 AM »

Many years ago I started working on the whole perm mag motor, pmm, for the first few years my father told me to quit tearing apart everything with a magnet it because it wouldn't work. Until while holding a configuration in my hands I got it to spin quite fast. That changed his mind. I have built, tested, and drawn more configurations than a google search can come up with,(btw the one in my hands rotated because the magnets pushed my hands around with a slight rotation of the axle giving a net motive force to the weak field area). I would like to talk over some ideas and see the feed back at this forum.
Lets all tend to agree that what we are attempting here is do to in some shape form or fashion what electrical motors actually do. So in a sense that is our model to work from, right. Here is my first question of this particular thought train.

What do all electric motors have in common, regardless of voltage or anything.

d3adp00l · « **Reply #1 on:** April 12, 2007, 08:21:25 AM »

No one has an answer?

Gregory · « **Reply #2 on:** April 12, 2007, 03:17:18 PM »

Quote from: d3adp00l on April 12, 2007, 07:54:04 AM

Lets all tend to agree that what we are attempting here is do to in some shape form or fashion what electrical motors actually do. So in a sense that is our model to work from, right. Here is my first question of this particular thought train.

What do all electric motors have in common, regardless of voltage or anything.

Hello,

Well, first I thought this topic is not worth the time to read, but I changed my mind when I read your question.

I think the answer is simple:
(Dynamically) Changing magnetic fields. AC or DC but changing in some fashion. This is the most important about every working electromagnetic motor. Only the changes in the orientation of a magnetic field can make a motor work. Magnets statically fixed in any position will not make a motor work. We must have some change at the stators, or at the rotor, or both.

I also had drawn more than a hundred of different designs, and built a few. I think static designs will never work. (or never work good enough)

hanker886 · « **Reply #3 on:** April 12, 2007, 04:01:26 PM »

Gregry,

Isn't Perendev considered static mag design?

bitRAKE · « **Reply #4 on:** April 12, 2007, 04:55:18 PM »

Motors tend also to operate on a single plane of forces. Of course, this is obvious because the net result is a turning axle, but it is important to state even our basest assumptions.

Sometimes the transfer of energy to the plane of rotation is not uniformly perpendicular to the plane of rotation. I'm talking in 3D, so we have two other dimensions that can be perpendicular to the plane of rotation.

Gregory · « **Reply #5 on:** April 12, 2007, 10:30:05 PM »

Quote from: hanker886 on April 12, 2007, 04:01:26 PM

Gregry,

Isn't Perendev considered static mag design?

Yes, it is...

I don't know but the same time I'm not convinced that Perendev's all magnet motor design is really worked. You've just seen a bad quality video about it, and heard talks. Some time back I thought it might be really a workable design, I was almost convinced but my experiments with magnets proved the opposite for me. I was a great believer, but I changed my mind and accepted how magnets act in reality. If you want to achieve something, first you must analyze things for yourself very carefully to get a real good feeling, and practical understanding how they work. After that you must accept the reality of their operation, without believes. Then you can begin to search for a solution...

We can talk about some kind of mystical shielding application, but I think that will not get us closer to the real solution. On the other hand a lot of shielding in a motor design is not usually considered as a good thing.

Just an opinion... I'm not a professor.

How do you think, hanker886?

d3adp00l · « **Reply #6 on:** April 13, 2007, 02:28:48 AM »

Gregory your answer is right, your reply a bit inside the box. The perendev motor hasn't been seen by anyone to be validly working. Yes is it the most basic question and the greatest hurdle to a pmm. The question following that would be, if the field can't spontaniously change itself, who can one create a field occilation without changing the field. And yes gregory I am starting at the beginning and going slow, mostly to have a conversation that can begin at the first questions, and possible combine experiences to get to an answer. If something more advanced is desired we can roll with that also.

Low-Q · « **Reply #7 on:** April 13, 2007, 03:29:36 PM »

Quote from: d3adp00l on April 12, 2007, 07:54:04 AM

Many years ago I started working on the whole perm mag motor, pmm, for the first few years my father told me to quit tearing apart everything with a magnet it because it wouldn't work. Until while holding a configuration in my hands I got it to spin quite fast. That changed his mind. I have built, tested, and drawn more configurations than a google search can come up with,(btw the one in my hands rotated because the magnets pushed my hands around with a slight rotation of the axle giving a net motive force to the weak field area). I would like to talk over some ideas and see the feed back at this forum.
Lets all tend to agree that what we are attempting here is do to in some shape form or fashion what electrical motors actually do. So in a sense that is our model to work from, right. Here is my first question of this particular thought train.

What do all electric motors have in common, regardless of voltage or anything.

Electric motors have a magnetized rotor that wants to flip over into the neutral position between two or more stator magnets.

The main difference between a pure magnet motor and an electric motor, is that the magnetism in an electric motor follows the rotor and suddenly shift magnetic polarity where the rotor poles is closest to the stator magnets. In a pure magnet motor the magnetism does NOT follow the rotor pole as it rotate, and does not suddenly shut off its magnetism and swop polarity. Thats why pure permanent magnet motors don't work.

I have some ideas drawn and animated here, but after major calculations, the average torque is allways zero - sadly but true.

However, if you got any idea that might work nice, please feel free to post it here

Br.

Vidar

d3adp00l · « **Reply #8 on:** April 14, 2007, 09:38:02 AM »

Ok heres the kick, electric motors don't really work on the principle that we normally think they do. Forget about attraction and repulsion, and think in terms of frustration. Electric motors work because the fields are turned on when they will be in high magnetic frustration (a point when fields are at a high energy conflict with others), the fields want to move to a low area of frustration(just like we do). Once in the low area of frustration the field is either turned off (allowing inertia to carry the cycle), or reversed inducing another high frustration. Yes this is elementary but its an important mental concept. PMM always have high points and low points, as long as there is a single low point of frustration the design will not work because that point is where the magnets will want to stay. Think more in terms of equal frustration, the design has to have equal frustration for its entire cycle. This would seem to indicate that there would be no motion, at first. If you can have continually equal frustration in the same direction, then you would have a continuous torque with an equal vector. The result of that is like a horse with a carrot in front of it on a pole held by the rider. It wants to get to a low state of frustration, but it can't because the fields pull and push it out of the only possible low state, which would be to hold still. Yes it is difficult to think of a configuration that all the fields are equal and trying to go the same direction.

Low-Q · « **Reply #9 on:** April 14, 2007, 09:51:51 AM »

In that horse-carrot story, the carrot wants the horse as well as the horse want the carrot if both stands still. In a figurative sense the same with permanent magnets. Force equals counterforce, so to speak. The only way the horse is moving, is by using energy by being fooled by the relatively static carrot. It is not however easy to fool a magnet to believe it can move by itself. So only by providing movable energy into one magnet will also force another magnet to move, not else.

How is it possible to a permanent magnet to work in one direction and not in another without manipulating it with external energy supply?

In spite of quite much internal brain counteraction, telling me that permanent magnet motors can't run, I still try to make it - thats my carrot

Btw: Electro motors work by using attraction and repulsion caused by an external energy supply - for your information

Br.

Vidar

d3adp00l · « **Reply #10 on:** April 15, 2007, 06:46:07 AM »

First of all, I don't remember saying whether something would or wouldn't work. I personally like carrots. in the carrot horse thing, I think you went a bit further with that then I intended to lead you.

And how does one keep the frustration equal(no high/low spots) but working in the same direction is exactly the question to be solved.

And motors rototate because of the induced magnet fields being in a frustrated state, and the fields are created by electrical charge moving on a wire.

And I am not trying to annoy anyone, I am just wanting to discuss what I have learned with others who are working on the same thing as I.

It would seem that if there are stationary fields involved in any design then there is a point of lowest frustration available for the magnets to want to rest in. And it would seem that even if you could store the energy from the posistive contribution of motion it would only be enough to equal the energy needed to push the moving assembly through the high point of resistance, and after deducting frictional loses the net result is no rotation.

The question of how to get the direction of the toque the same is linked with how can you get from on side of a plane to the other without going through it or around it. Answer: infinity band, you could travel forever and flip from one side to the other always going in the same direction and never leaving the plane your traveling on.

Low-Q · « **Reply #11 on:** April 15, 2007, 11:11:21 AM »

Quote from: d3adp00l on April 15, 2007, 06:46:07 AM

First of all, I don't remember saying whether something would or wouldn't work. I personally like carrots. in the carrot horse thing, I think you went a bit further with that then I intended to lead you.

And how does one keep the frustration equal(no high/low spots) but working in the same direction is exactly the question to be solved.

And motors rototate because of the induced magnet fields being in a frustrated state, and the fields are created by electrical charge moving on a wire.

And I am not trying to annoy anyone, I am just wanting to discuss what I have learned with others who are working on the same thing as I.

It would seem that if there are stationary fields involved in any design then there is a point of lowest frustration available for the magnets to want to rest in. And it would seem that even if you could store the energy from the posistive contribution of motion it would only be enough to equal the energy needed to push the moving assembly through the high point of resistance, and after deducting frictional loses the net result is no rotation.

The question of how to get the direction of the toque the same is linked with how can you get from on side of a plane to the other without going through it or around it. Answer: infinity band, you could travel forever and flip from one side to the other always going in the same direction and never leaving the plane your traveling on.

Just have in mind that a magnets attraction forces are highest where the magnetic lines curves the most. If you have two super strong magnets, 100mm long and 10mm x 10mm thick, magnetized through thickness. Then you push them together with equal poles facing each other, you'll feel the powerful repulsion. Now, turn one of the magnets 90 degrees in plane, still equal poles facing each other. Now try to push them together: No problem at all. The magnetic lines in the middle of a pole does almost do no repulsion because the magnetic fields approach with almost no angle. In a virtually infinite magnet setup, there will in other words be no forces to push or pull anything in the longitudinal direction as the magnetic lines will not find any path back to the opposite pole in the magnet longitudinal direction where the desired magnetic forces should be. To have forces in longitudinal direction, sticky spots in the desired workng direction will be no exception.

If it exist materials which shields the magnetism without be affected by the magnetism, most of the problems with sticky spots should be solved. So far, both magnetic and diamagnetic materials are affected by magnetism, and also affected by sticky spots.

However, the search for free energy continues

Br,

Vidar

d3adp00l · « **Reply #12 on:** April 15, 2007, 10:37:06 PM »

Ok Vidar your example is close to what I am describing. The magnets have equal frustration in a single direction, granted it is in a finite linear fashion but that is what is needed. There is no counter force involved with the simple push or pull of two equal magnets. The push and pull it result from the magnets frustration, the magnet "wants to be in the lowest energy state possible and therefore will push or pull in order to do so. The longitutinal point is also important, other than superconductors nothing effectively "shields" magnitism other than distance. One can however contain magnetism which in effect is shielding the field from being an active participant in the system. And the containment can be done with equal and opposite fields. when your two equal magnets finally come in contact with eachother most of the fields result in a net magnetism of near 0.

I also disagree that any magnetic motor would be free energy, it always takes energy to create a magnet and therefore if that magnet does work it wasn't for free. However if a magnetic motor can be made to do work it would be a very efficient system, with almost zero losses unlike all other systems.

Low-Q · « **Reply #13 on:** April 16, 2007, 12:28:16 PM »

It will be interesting to se your progress with your idea anyway

Let's know when you have made and tested the motor. In the meanwhile I want to simulate the motor in Femm, but only if you can post drawings of your idea first.

Br.

Vidar

d3adp00l · « **Reply #14 on:** April 16, 2007, 11:02:34 PM »

I need some gears and my machinist is very good but very very very slow. Anyone know where to get 4 to 7 inch fine pitch high speed gears from?

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Author Topic: A different approach, input appreciated (Read 11500 times)

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A different approach, input appreciated

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