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Author Topic: Another Magnet Only Based Design  (Read 1052 times)

Offline Apoc4lypse

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Another Magnet Only Based Design
« on: April 06, 2018, 09:30:29 AM »
This is my first topic on this forum, but I've read a few topics here from time to time, generally I'm over at open-source-energy.org

First off I want to say any system relying on magnets is not perpetual motion, perpetual motion is impossible because eventually the energies being changed reach equilibrium and no long change so the energy reaction stops and so does the system.

Magnets have energy in them because of the Atomic Alignment that gives the magnet its polar magnetization. Every time you pass a magnet past a conductor like a wire, the magnets magnetic field interacts with the conductor creating a small amount of drag on the Atoms in the magnet disturbing the magnetic alignment of the Atoms in the magnet thus slightly reducing its magnetic field. This is why over time and continuous usage a generator and a motors magnets will need to be replaced for the same performance capabilities it had when first built or may even stop working altogether.

With this being said you could think of a magnet like a small "battery" the energy is the Atomic Magnetic Alignment of the atoms or their physical positions. Generally it takes energy to magnetize a magnet unless you got your magnet from magnetic ore (which usually does not have perfect polarization due to how magnetic ore is formed).

The question is how do you release the energy inside of a magnet with doing as little work as possible?


Anyway enough talk about "magnetic theory" I've been working on different ideas on how to get magnets to move on their own for a while now, most ideas always end up with what people like to refer to as "Stick Points" where the magnetic field gets caught on an opposite pole stopping the motion of the system.

The goal for any of these ideas should be to be as simple as possible with acceptable results that can hopefully be used to power something even if its just a light bulb, currently I'm working on an idea which isn't far off from this idea right here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2bPDDWqSvM but I'm trying to do it with out the use of a commutator because commutators can be finicky and break down at higher speeds and continuous use. That design doesn't rely on just magnets though and incorporates things like wire coils and magnetic cores to perform.

While working on designs I was thinking about how if you power an electromagnet coil with DC current and have a stack of magnets pointing at the center of that coil perpendicular to it, depending on the current flow or the magnetic poles of the electromagnet the stack of magnets will want to travel to one end or another of that electromagnet due to the polar magnetic field interactions between the two.

So, what if you do the same experiment with two stacks of magnets instead of an electromagnet, you get the same results, the magnet stack pointing to the center of the other one perpendicular to it wants to travel to either end of the magnet stack depending on the pole facing of the magnet stacks.

A simple diagram of this can be seen here https://image.ibb.co/gBxmMc/explination.jpg

Then I was thinking what if you took a bunch of magnets and cut them into wedges so that the magnetic poles were perpendicular to the wedge cuts and stacked them into a circle creating a stack of magnets in a loop with the north pole and south pole traveling opposite directions around the circle of magnet wedges. Then put the circle of magnet wedges on a rotor and held stationary magnets with the same poles all pointing into it around the outside, wouldn't it cause the same motion as the stack of magnets above? Or would it have different results because the magnets are now in a circle.

Here is a simple diagram of the idea https://image.ibb.co/gBnWnH/magnet_ring_idea2.jpg

I think the ring of wedged magnets would want to spin due to the outside magnets perpendicular magnetic field lines interacting with the field lines on the magnet wedge ring.


Btw the Captchas on this site are incredibly annoying to read.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline MagnaProp

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Re: Another Magnet Only Based Design
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2018, 04:48:51 AM »
...I think the ring of wedged magnets would want to spin due to the outside magnets perpendicular magnetic field lines interacting with the field lines on the magnet wedge ring...

I like your idea. Not sure it'll work though. I tried something similar a while ago but didn't get any motion out of it once the circle was closed. I think the track works since it's relatively short. I then tried to work the short length track idea into a circular pattern. Doubt it would work either though. Maybe yours will work since the magnet arrangement is reversed from what I was trying?

The concept being that the rotating magnets are in no more than half a circle of track at any time.
https://youtu.be/OHDxBjGvhU4

Offline truesearch

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Re: Another Magnet Only Based Design
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2018, 06:51:48 AM »
@Apoc4lypse,


I Like your idea, but I'm afraid it won't prove to work. If I think about the "magnetic-field-lines" that go between the North and South ends of a magnet then I see alittle why the one image (not the circle one) you have which shows some "push" or "attraction" to move the perpendicular magnet toward the North-end and away from the South-end.

BUT. . . in the circle diagram if you think about all of the "magnetic-field-lines" wanting to go between the North and South poles of magnets then there isn't very much "extra" field-lines that aren't just focused immediately toward the next-wedge-shaped magnet next to it. I might be wrong but I think that's the problem with us trying to "close-the-circle" ~ all the magnetic flux lines are sucked into the tight-circle and there isn't anything left out to have any affect on the magnet out on the side :(


truesearch

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Another Magnet Only Based Design
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2018, 02:32:41 PM »
I have performed this experiment myself many years ago with a stack of 10mm diameter neodymium magnets. My intention was, however, slightly different. I wanted to make a circular magnetic field (just like you do in the picture above), which I did, and what happens when you stack magnets in a circle like this.
An open circular magnetic field, such as the one you get around a wire with electric current flowing through it, will be forced in a direction perpendicular to the external magnetic field. This is great, but when you have this circular magnetic field inside the magnets, they will not be affected by exsternal magnetism at all. Very frustrating, but true. No force in any direction.


However, there is no such thing as magnetic field lines. The textbook says so, but that is not true. The textbook relies on the fact how iron filings lines up around a magnet, where the filings in fact is at rest, equilibrium, with no forces that wants to move them away or towards the magnet.
What is interesting with magnets, say a round disc magnet that is magnetized through thickness, you have an electric current like field around the circumference. It is this current that is interesting to investigate. Currents flowing in the same direction attract - which is what happening when two magnets attract where one has north up and the other north down, they attract sideways edge to edge. One magnet have this current flowing CW and the other CCW, therfor, wher these currents appoach eachother, the direction of this current goes the same direction, and attract.


In your drawing above, this current is "wound" like windings in a toroide core, and will focus the field inside the core. As you for sure know, approaching a piece of iron in the vicinity of a torodial transformer under load, the iron piece is almost not affected by the 50Hz changing magnetic field in the core. So your stator magnets will not "feel" anything of what's going on inside the circular magnetic field in your rotor. So nothing happens.


Vidar

Offline Apoc4lypse

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Re: Another Magnet Only Based Design
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2018, 02:24:33 PM »
In a transformer your dealing with AC power which is alternating back and fourth creating pole shifts which is why it ends up having no directional magnetization, its being magnetized both ways as the current changes directions.

When you built your version of this type of magnet in the diagram above, how did you build it?

I discovered that when sticking together magnets the magnets flux likes to create sticking points as you build it depending on how you build it and in what order. Its not that there is no directional magnetization along the sides of it, its that depending on how you put the magnets together you end up with flux getting stuck at points during the assembly process.

For my current experiment I built two half circle arcs using small Neo's and I discovered that it wanted to spin but would get stuck at the areas where I joined the two half circles because if you think about it... As you build the two circle halves you end up with the strong flux exiting both ends of the half circle's then when you join them together the flux just sticks right where you joined them. I'm working on a 3d model I'm going to have a friend 3d print for me to see if I can assemble it the way I want that I think will end up having a balanced flux around it once assembled.

Even if the flux is concentrated inside of the magnetic ring assembly like was said above, the other magnets flux is still cutting through that ring perpendicularly and wants to move along side it.

Don't confuse AC electromagnetic properties with DC electromagnetic properties, they are very different, DC creates fields all flowing in one direction and can give you poles, but AC is operating in both directions so the poles cancel out. Over time though in a AC transformer the core will begin to become less efficient because its magnetic permeability is effected by the constant pole shifting that is used to magnetically transfer current between the winding's on the core. The cores magnetic permeability is related to the efficiency of that current transfer, the higher the magnetic permeability the better it will perform.

I had some thoughts about transformers too but I don't know enough to say either way yet and don't really have the right tools to experiment on them, but I think you could setup something that would be able to amplify currents by using magnets as a core while using DC currents and quickly opening and closing the circuits to kind of bounce the flux around. Its similar to the Toroidal Power Unit concept, but less likely to explode or do something dangerous since its not a toroid core and there would be far less magnetic resonance occurring inside the core since its not one solid ring toroid core where the fields are all connected in a circle and bouncing off of one another in a chain reaction.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Another Magnet Only Based Design
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2018, 02:24:33 PM »
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Offline Apoc4lypse

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Re: Another Magnet Only Based Design
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2018, 07:04:54 AM »
Idk if there is a way to edit posts here...

Anyway Kind of occurs to me that the flux in the center of the magnet runs one way while the outside runs the other way and that the center flux is stronger than both the outside running fluxes it would seem... so idk because the flux is cutting into the magnet hitting both the outside and the inside flux...

Offline Lancair-ES

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Re: Another Magnet Only Based Design
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2018, 10:56:23 AM »
In a transformer your dealing with AC power which is alternating back and fourth creating pole shifts which is why it ends up having no directional magnetization, its being magnetized both ways as the current changes directions.

When you built your version of this type of magnet in the diagram above, how did you build it?

I discovered that when sticking together magnets the magnets flux likes to create sticking points as you build it depending on how you build it and in what order. Its not that there is no directional magnetization along the sides of it, its that depending on how you put the magnets together you end up with flux getting stuck at points during the assembly process.

For my current experiment I built two half circle arcs using small Neo's and I discovered that it wanted to spin but would get stuck at the areas where I joined the two half circles because if you think about it... As you build the two circle halves you end up with the strong flux exiting both ends of the half circle's then when you join them together the flux just sticks right where you joined them. I'm working on a 3d model I'm going to have a friend 3d print for me to see if I can assemble it the way I want that I think will end up having a balanced flux around it once assembled.

Even if the flux is concentrated inside of the magnetic ring assembly like was said above, the other magnets flux is still cutting through that ring perpendicularly and wants to move along side it.

Don't confuse AC electromagnetic properties with DC electromagnetic properties, they are very different, DC creates fields all flowing in one direction and can give you poles, but AC is operating in both directions so the poles cancel out. Over time though in a AC transformer the core will begin to become less efficient because its magnetic permeability is effected by the constant pole shifting that is used to magnetically transfer current between the winding's on the core. The cores magnetic permeability is related to the efficiency of that current transfer, the higher the magnetic permeability the better it will perform.

I had some thoughts about transformers too but I don't know enough to say either way yet and don't really have the right tools to experiment on them, but I think you could setup something that would be able to amplify currents by using magnets as a core while using DC currents and quickly opening and closing the circuits to kind of bounce the flux around. Its similar to the Toroidal Power Unit concept, but less likely to explode or do something dangerous since its not a toroid core and there would be far less magnetic resonance occurring inside the core since its not one solid ring toroid core where the fields are all connected in a circle and bouncing off of one another in a chain reaction.
The field from the outer magnets will enter the magnet assambly-ring but will not excert rotational force.
You can simulate this in FEMM 4.2. That simple software is pretty accurate - and for free. The ring and the outer magnet behave as there was nothing else around. No action.



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Another Magnet Only Based Design
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2018, 10:56:23 AM »
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Offline Apoc4lypse

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Re: Another Magnet Only Based Design
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2018, 02:44:33 AM »
Yeah I just checked out that program, I wish I could generate fields in 3d.... 2 dimensional fields don't exactly cover the interactions I'm experimenting with completely, but I can see some of the problems with it. Thankyou.

Offline lumen

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Re: Another Magnet Only Based Design
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2018, 05:13:09 AM »
Once you build a solid circular ring of close fitting magnets, the field will be trappped inside to such an extent that it will no longer attract iron.



Offline Low-Q

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Re: Another Magnet Only Based Design
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2018, 01:53:05 PM »
Yeah I just checked out that program, I wish I could generate fields in 3d.... 2 dimensional fields don't exactly cover the interactions I'm experimenting with completely, but I can see some of the problems with it. Thankyou.
3D simulations are not needed. The reason is because, if you look at the magnetic fields as loops, or circles, for magnetic fields to interfer with one another, these "circles" cannot circulate perpendicular to eachother. Say one in horizontal plane and one in the vertical plane. They must be less or more than 90° on eachother to feel or measure any force.


However, if you simulate a radially magnetized (Not circular as in your example) ring magnet in FEMM, you do not see any field lines at all in the simulation - even if they are there in reality. The reason is because the field goes "out of the screen" and becomes invisible, while a possible external N-S bar magnet will show the field lines because the simulation only shows the field that is in plane with the screen.
So to solve this 3D problem with a radially magnetized ringmagnet, you must simulate the cross section of it - basically two rectangular magnets side by side where same polarity points towards eachother.


So, basically, FEMM do the job for you perfectly if you can draw the model in two different planes, and simulate each of them separately.


Br. Vidar

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Another Magnet Only Based Design
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2018, 01:53:05 PM »
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