Author Topic: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated (Read 433463 times)

listener192 · « **Reply #750 on:** May 11, 2018, 09:58:24 PM »

Quote from: konehead on May 11, 2018, 03:38:07 AM

Hi Everyone
Whats happened?
Pierre's videos down again from youtube...has he gone underground??

Did he get threats (like what always happens with loopers)

Is Gotoluc no longer posting?

Whats going on?

Has anyone replicated Pierre's DZ generator with half decent results yet??

I am still building.

I have all the switching running with relays, just need to complete power wiring and diode board hookup.
Also got a 36 slot stator, (no rotor for this yet). This one was vacuum varnished and the laminations held by the casing which was a mazac casting.
The whole thing needed to be heated in an oven to release old windings and slot liners. I made frames out of the old bearing end caps to hold the whole stack together.
Regards
L192

gotoluc · « **Reply #751 on:** May 11, 2018, 10:36:31 PM »

Quote from: listener192 on May 11, 2018, 09:58:24 PM

I am still building.

I have all the switching running with relays, just need to complete power wiring and diode board hookup.
Also got a 36 slot stator, (no rotor for this yet). This one was vacuum varnished and the laminations held by the casing which was a mazac casting.
The whole thing needed to be heated in an oven to release old windings and slot liners. I made frames out of the old bearing end caps to hold the whole stack together.
Regards
L192

Thanks for the update L192... I was wondering if you were still at it.Not much new to report on my side other then when I re-positioned all my stator coils to 5 slot space I forgot to also reposition all my H-Bridges, so they were still at 6 slot spaces. So you can imagine that did not do well and have since found 9 of the H-Bridges that are fried. So I can no longer test.
I have someone that will buy 30 of these for me to continue: https://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?ff3=4&toolid=11800&pub=5574900467&campid=5338252492&mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fitm%2F200950936475%3FrmvSB%3Dtrue
It will be a week or more before I receive them.
So without a doubt this confirms the L298N are not going to be able handle the current no matter if you have one or even two per coil.
Regards
Luc
Fr. Merci pour la mise à jour L192 ... Je me demandais si tu étais encore là.
Pas grand chose de nouveau à signaler de mon côté, mais quand j'ai repositionné toutes mes bobines de stator à 5 fente, j'ai oublié de repositionner tous mes ponts H, donc ils étaient encore à 6 slots. Vous pouvez imaginer que ça n'a pas bien marché et depuis jai trouvé 9 ponts H-frits. Donc je ne peux plus tester.
J'ai quelqu'un qui va acheter 30 ponts H pour moi pour continuer les test: https://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?ff3=4&toolid=11800&pub=5574900467&campid=5338252492&mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fitm%2F200950936475%3FrmvSB%3Dtrue
Ce sera une semaine ou plus avant que je les reçoive.Donc, c'est confirmé que les L298N ne son pas capable de gérer le courant, peu importe si vous en avez un ou deux par bobine.
Cordialement
Luc

listener192 · « **Reply #752 on:** May 11, 2018, 11:15:21 PM »

Hi Gotoluc,
I will post a photo when I have the build finished.
Let us know how the new bridge boards perform. I have one of those on order for testing.
I also destroyed about 5 of the L298N's and decided to try relays next.

Regards
L192

T-1000 · « **Reply #753 on:** May 12, 2018, 03:02:09 PM »

Quote from: listener192 on May 11, 2018, 11:15:21 PM

I also destroyed about 5 of the L298N's and decided to try relays next.

Hi L192,

Seems you do not have shotky/zener diodes for protection there? The reverse currents will allways blow up transistors if there are no blocking diodes in series.
And because it is IC I would strongly recommend driving external power mosfets with them which have protection so no more burned parts will end up on your bench.

Cheers!

onielsen · « **Reply #754 on:** May 12, 2018, 05:56:29 PM »

Quote from: T-1000 on May 12, 2018, 03:02:09 PM

Hi L192,

...The reverse currents will allways blow up transistors if there are no blocking diodes in series.
And because it is IC I would strongly recommend driving external power mosfets with them which have protection so no more burned parts will end up on your bench.

Cheers!

It is the voltage that changes sign (and perhaps size) from input to output (flyback pulse). The current through a coil must be continuous. That is it mustn't make a jump. This is exactly the opposite of what happens for capacitors where it is the voltage that that is continuous and the current that changes direction (and perhaps size) when the power changes direction from input to output.

A diode can clamp the voltage to a safe level. The current then can be directed to somewhere else or be dissipated as heat in the resistance of the coil. A Zener clamp will dissipate the power as heat in the Zener diode. Be sure the Zener diode can handle that power.

More on snubber protection: https://wiki2.org/en/Snubber

Regards
Ole

T-1000 · « **Reply #755 on:** May 12, 2018, 06:17:29 PM »

Quote from: onielsen on May 12, 2018, 05:56:29 PM

A diode can clamp the voltage to a safe level. The current then can be directed to somewhere else or be dissipated as heat in the resistance of the coil. A Zener clamp will dissipate the power as heat in the Zener diode. Be sure the Zener diode can handle that power.

More on snubber protection: https://wiki2.org/en/Snubber

Regards
Ole

The classic snubbers mostly are wasting energy while protecting discrete elements. Here we are also trying to recover energy back to the input which makes task a bit more challenging.

onielsen · « **Reply #756 on:** May 12, 2018, 07:21:14 PM »

Quote from: T-1000 on May 12, 2018, 06:17:29 PM

The classic snubbers mostly are wasting energy while protecting discrete elements. Here we are also trying to recover energy back to the input which makes task a bit more challenging.

Then an active snubber is needed instead of the simple passive ones. Zener diodes are totally wasting power when their clamping voltage is reached. An active snubber is an extra switch (transistor) that diverts the power back to the power supply or perhaps to the load. The energy can be temporarily stored in a capacitor that then is discharged to somewhere else where the energy can be useful.

Looking at Pierre's device dissipating heat in the heat sink while delivering power to itself and also giving off power to an external load it really makes enough power to use the cheaper and simpler passive snubbers. First make it work like Pierre did and then perhaps optimize it or stay with a cheap model even though it may not be as efficient as a more advanced model using active snubbers. After all it's not like a circuit running on a battery where every possible waste of power has to be minimized for extending the period between charging the battery.

Regards
Ole

pmgr · « **Reply #757 on:** May 12, 2018, 09:01:22 PM »

Quote from: gotoluc on May 11, 2018, 10:36:31 PM

Thanks for the update L192... I was wondering if you were still at it.Not much new to report on my side other then when I re-positioned all my stator coils to 5 slot space I forgot to also reposition all my H-Bridges, so they were still at 6 slot spaces. So you can imagine that did not do well and have since found 9 of the H-Bridges that are fried. So I can no longer test.
I have someone that will buy 30 of these for me to continue: https://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?ff3=4&toolid=11800&pub=5574900467&campid=5338252492&mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fitm%2F200950936475%3FrmvSB%3Dtrue
It will be a week or more before I receive them.
So without a doubt this confirms the L298N are not going to be able handle the current no matter if you have one or even two per coil.
Regards
Luc

Luc, at this point I think it is safest you stick with relays instead of trying another H-bridge configuration. The flyback diodes need to be able to withstand a large reverse voltage and also need to carry a large forward current. If you have taken out the old H-bridges, you should check the flyback diodes on them to see if they are burned out (check in both forward and backward direction). It wouldn't surprise me if they are dead as well.

Stick with relays and get the version that will let you select whether it switches on a low or a high so you won't need to design any additional inverter logic and can drive two relays with one Arduino output. Additionally, you will need to make a flyback diode board like Pierre has (I note he uses two diodes in parallel to increase current capacity). You could ask him for the part number so we can check what current capacity and reverse voltage they need to be able to withstand. Additionally, their reverse current should be as small as possible as they will draw current from the capacitor bank in reverse and thus waist energy.

PmgR

listener192 · « **Reply #758 on:** May 12, 2018, 09:37:28 PM »

Quote from: T-1000 on May 12, 2018, 06:17:29 PM

The classic snubbers mostly are wasting energy while protecting discrete elements. Here we are also trying to recover energy back to the input which makes task a bit more challenging.

Well actually the diodes on the boards worked just fine. The problem is just that the L298N cannot handle the current required for this device.
I can report no diodes failed.
Originally when I tabled the idea of using the L298N, I thought the coils were being pulsed individually.

Regards
L192

T-1000 · « **Reply #759 on:** May 12, 2018, 11:33:42 PM »

Quote from: listener192 on May 12, 2018, 09:37:28 PM

Well actually the diodes on the boards worked just fine. The problem is just that the L298N cannot handle the current required for this device.
I can report no diodes failed.
Originally when I tabled the idea of using the L298N, I thought the coils were being pulsed individually.

Regards
L192

You may try circuit similar to my design to handle load - https://i.imgur.com/R3H77fv.png (single module for 4 coils in schematics, multiply to needed amount) and offload coils handling to MOSFETs.

Hopefully that is helpful...

pmgr · « **Reply #760 on:** May 13, 2018, 02:02:32 AM »

Hi T-1000,
Per your schematic, you need two Arduino control lines to control a single coil, or one control line per mostfet (or relay). For a 30 (or 36) coil stator, that would require 60 (or 72) control lines. The Arduino only has 54 digital outputs.

You should be able to simplify your schematic from Arduino to H-bridge since you will never turn on the upper and lower mosfet on one side of the coil at the same time.
PmgR

T-1000 · « **Reply #761 on:** May 13, 2018, 06:10:29 AM »

Quote from: pmgr on May 13, 2018, 02:02:32 AM

Hi T-1000,
Per your schematic, you need two Arduino control lines to control a single coil, or one control line per mostfet (or relay). For a 30 (or 36) coil stator, that would require 60 (or 72) control lines. The Arduino only has 54 digital outputs.

Hi PmgR,

My personal appropach to whole thing is a bit different series connections with just half length driving which would end up with 6 wires per pole repeating 3 times in series in total. This will end up with 18 wires and 36 high+low pins in total to control. I am also planning to test the simplified setup with all coils. Just in single line over E cores in series liike ШШШШШШ with driving coils going on the angle and similar to the concept picture attached before. Then will use all available space for output coils to see what output power I can get after simulating moving magnetic field.

Also if to apply 72 connections the middle logic part of circuit would need another addition for controlling 2 pins at once. Which can be simple set of low power pnp/npn transistors like in Piere's original video where he was controlling 72 relays.

Cheers!

d3x0r · « **Reply #762 on:** May 14, 2018, 01:59:01 AM »

have 5 of 9 relay boards working, everything wired and mounted. (except signal/power to the last 4 relay boards).
Need to get a better current power supply. (supply for coils/caps).

Works just fine to set output to high, then set mode as output, no relays flicker or turn on... and setting low to enable relay.

3D Model

zip is a fullres image.

gotoluc · « **Reply #763 on:** May 14, 2018, 06:11:00 AM »

WOW d3x0r!... you are definitely a serious builder

Looking forward to your results
Thanks for sharing
Luc

Thaelin · « **Reply #764 on:** May 14, 2018, 06:59:49 AM »

Some many post ago, one user here was going to run this up using armature switching. Was wondering if that user went anywhere with it?
I have been pondering this setup for some time now. As I can't seem to find a 36 vane core as I call it, I am unable to proceed with a build. That doesn't keep me from pondering the way he is getting 60hz from his setup. Has to be in the stepping of the program through the relays on and off. The program says to overlap as in turn the next one on before turning the last one off. That would create a spike in the power line circuit each time one was turned on and again when one was turned off. Since the program is running a serial mode operation, there are many on and off modes creating spikes. The output will see these spikes as cycles. But still not sure if there are enough spikes to create 60hz from. Then it is not a sinus wave at all either.

I have laid out a design for a rotary switch system using brushes that do a make before break but all six sectors switch at the same time. Sore afraid this will screw up the output frequency for sure. I did a small experiment to see it lentz would have any effect on my manually turning a switching system and no it does not. One down for now. Just need that burned up motor housing to continue.

thay

News:

User Menu

Author Topic: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated (Read 433463 times)

listener192

Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated

gotoluc

Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated

listener192

Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated

T-1000

Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated

onielsen

Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated

T-1000

Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated

onielsen

Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated

pmgr

Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated

listener192

Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated

T-1000

Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated

pmgr

Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated

T-1000

Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated

d3x0r

Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated

gotoluc

Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated

Thaelin

Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated