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Author Topic: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated  (Read 64784 times)

Online jerdee

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Doesn't that make a discontinuity in the waveform?

Regards

L192

I apologize, you are correct!  I stand corrected.

We will have to do twice the amount of control on H-Bridges.
Each line of switching in the code is HIGH BUT, 1 pin is for three positive polarity, and another pin HIGH for three negative polarities.  Just need to make sure we can trigger three H-bridges from one high pin and use extra pins to switch polarity on the H-bridges.

Please see attached PDF to help the understanding.

All thirty H-bridges are firing for each half of the code.  Twice per code loop, each in opposite polarity.
By doing this, you have three North fields in parallel and three South's in parallel with the DC source at any one point in time.
BTW...this lines up with Ole's animation and Pierre's original code.

Hope this helps, and apologize for this confusion.  Please let me know if this looks incorrect. 

Jerdee

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Online listener192

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I apologize, you are correct!  I stand corrected.

We will have to do twice the amount of control on H-Bridges.
Each line of switching in the code is HIGH BUT, 1 pin is for three positive polarity, and another pin HIGH for three negative polarities.  Just need to make sure we can trigger three H-bridges from one high pin and use extra pins to switch polarity on the H-bridges.

Please see attached PDF to help the understanding.

All thirty H-bridges are firing for each half of the code.  Twice per code loop, each in opposite polarity.
By doing this, you have three North fields in parallel and three South's in parallel with the DC source at any one point in time.
BTW...this lines up with Ole's animation and Pierre's original code.

Hope this helps, and apologize for this confusion.  Please let me know if this looks incorrect. 

Jerdee

Hi Jerdee,

Yes I understand what you are proposing however, as we have multiple "all coils off" periods, what happen to the overlap to sustain the flux? Pierre made a point of explaining the use of the overlap.
I understand that the Bridge diodes will recover coil energy.

In Pierre's 36 slot stator, how do the positive side connected diodes shown on his drawing, recover the coil energy, if there is no negative connection during the off period?

Regards

L192

Online jerdee

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Hi Jerdee,

Yes I understand what you are proposing however, as we have multiple "all coils off" periods, what happen to the overlap to sustain the flux? Pierre made a point of explaining the use of the overlap.
I understand that the Bridge diodes will recover coil energy.

In Pierre's 36 slot stator, how do the positive side connected diodes shown on his drawing, recover the coil energy, if there is no negative connection during the off period?

Regards

L192


Look at the PDF again, BOTH the H-bridge direction and HIGH are held in overlap.  :) 


The spin codes holds the pin high until told not too, which is the "x" in the PDF line of code.  Hopefully this helps.


JerDee.




Online listener192

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Look at the PDF again, BOTH the H-bridge direction and HIGH are held in overlap.  :) 


The spin codes holds the pin high until told not too, which is the "x" in the PDF line of code.  Hopefully this helps.


JerDee.

OK, got it thanks.

L192

Online jerdee

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This is what I have so far for a loop in code in a 30 pole configuration with H-Bridges at each pole.

__________________________________________

  repeat
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 1,11,21 to be positive)
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 6,16,26 to be negative)
    pin.high(turn H-Bridges 1,11,21,6,16,26 ON and hold)
    Delay Value   
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 2,12,22 to be positive)
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 7,17,27 to be negative)
    pin.high(turn H-Bridges 2,12,22,7,17,27 ON and hold)
    Delay Value
    pin.low(Turn H-Bridges 1,11,21,6,16,26 OFF)
    Delay Value
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 3,13,23 to be positive)
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 7,17,27 to be negative)
    pin.high(turn H-Bridges 3,13,23,7,17,27 ON and hold)
    Delay Value
    pin.low(turn  H-Bridges 2,12,22 OFF)
    Delay Value
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 4,14,24 to be positive)
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 8,18,28 to be negative)
    pin.high(turn H-Bridges 4,14,24,8,18,28 ON and hold)
    Delay Value
    pin.low(Turn H-Bridges 3,13,23 off)
    Delay Value
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 5,15,25 to be positive)
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 10,20,30 to be negative)
    pin.high(turn H-Bridges 5,15,25,10,20,30 ON and hold)
    Delay Value
    pin.low(Turn H-Bridges 4,14,24 OFF)
    Delay Value
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 1,11,21 to be negative)
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 6,16,26 to be positive)
    pin.high(turn H-Bridges 1,11,21,6,16,26 ON and hold)
    Delay Value
    pin.low(Turn H-Bridges 5,15,25 OFF)
    Delay Value
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 2,12,22 to be negative)
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 7,17,27 to be positive)
    pin.high(turn H-Bridges 2,12,22,7,17,27 ON and hold)
    Delay Value
    pin.low(Turn H-Bridges 6,16,26 OFF)
    Delay Value
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 3,13,23 to be negative)
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 8,18,28 to be positive)
    pin.high(turn H-Bridges 3,13,23,8,18,28 ON and hold)
    Delay Value
    pin.low(Turn H-Bridges 7,17,27 OFF)
    Delay Value
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 4,14,24 to be negative)
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 9,19,29 to be positive)
    pin.high(turn H-Bridges 4,14,24,9,19,29 ON and hold)
    Delay Value
    pin.low(Turn H-Bridges 8,18,28 OFF)
    Delay Value
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 5,15,25 to be negative)
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 10,20,30 to be positive)
    pin.high(turn H-Bridges 5,15,25,10,20,30 ON and hold)
    Delay Value
    pin.low(Turn H-Bridges 9,19,29,4,14,24 OFF)
    Delay Value
    pin.low(Turn H-Bridges 10,20,30,5,15,25 OFF)
    Delay Value

__________________________________________


Hopefully this helps,
Jerdee

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Offline d3x0r

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Hi Jerdee,

Yes I understand what you are proposing however, as we have multiple "all coils off" periods, what happen to the overlap to sustain the flux? Pierre made a point of explaining the use of the overlap.
I understand that the Bridge diodes will recover coil energy.

In Pierre's 36 slot stator, how do the positive side connected diodes shown on his drawing, recover the coil energy, if there is no negative connection during the off period?

Regards

L192


There is never an 'all coils off' ....


Online listener192

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There is never an 'all coils off' ....

According to Jerdee's chart, step 24 on the 36 slot scheme and step 20 on the 30 slot scheme are  all coils off.

So  my question still stands  regarding the 36 slot scheme using relays, how would you recover coil energy through high side diodes only, without any negative connection to allow current to flow?

Regards

L192

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Offline pmgr

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According to Jerdee's chart, step 24 on the 36 slot scheme and step 20 on the 30 slot scheme are  all coils off.

So  my question still stands  regarding the 36 slot scheme using relays, how would you recover coil energy through high side diodes only, without any negative connection to allow current to flow?

Regards

L192
There is always a connection to ground through one of the closed bottom relays. The BEMF voltage on a coil can be higher than the capacitor voltage, so current can still flow into capacitor.
PmgR

Offline d3x0r

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According to Jerdee's chart, step 24 on the 36 slot scheme and step 20 on the 30 slot scheme are  all coils off.

So  my question still stands  regarding the 36 slot scheme using relays, how would you recover coil energy through high side diodes only, without any negative connection to allow current to flow?

Regards

L192
I looked back through the last few pages, I see no chart like that.


http://overunity.com/17653/pierres-170w-in-1600w-out-looped-very-impressive-build-continued-moderated/dlattach/attach/167603/image//  translated from


https://youtu.be/vii6o20_Vv8?t=25s


There is never a time when 0 LEDs are on except step 0.
The first step, 2, 26, 14 are on.
step 24 (25) wraps back to the start...
https://youtu.be/vii6o20_Vv8?t=38s


that LED pattern and what's in original videos matches.
There is either an LED that's out, or a transistor that is blown so the LED doesn't have much voltage backing? or there's wires crossing in front of it that cause a shadow, but there is never a time when all LEDs are off.


( from here http://overunity.com/17653/pierres-170w-in-1600w-out-looped-very-impressive-build-continued-moderated/msg520053/#msg520053  )




Offline d3x0r

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So...


If there are 6 poles, energizing the south opposite any particular north... then the field is north through the center, but doesn't the magnetic path then prefer to go to the near sides, and only a vary small portion actually all the way across? 


Could this be run as a bedini with all coill north instead?


But from the rotation, and the code evalutaitons; what makes this different from any other 3-pair of n/s poles around ?  (Like morin Gerald's motor) and many other stepper motors in fans and stuff...


For experimentation I'd think you'd get a higher initial activity by activating only 1 pair at a time, and aligning the center pickup coil ... well I guess if it is cycling all the way around (which the iniital iron filings demo didn't really show to me) doesn't really matter..


But then there is a difference in the voltage from luc's setup to the original demonstration


also having the coils in series divides their current by 2 (double the resistance, double the inductance) rather than activating them in parallel...

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Offline seaad

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I made a time gap (all transistors Off ) in my SIMulation with recovery diodes.  The amperage is recovered for a short while. See pic.

Quote;
"....you managed to rotate the magnetic field....
....but there is something crucial that is missing which I see none of you have thought of yet since you are too concentrated on a replication....

....I can see that no one has ever ask the real question
of how to make current and what is happening by breaking down the cycle of a generator.


 If you really understand this then you will be able...."
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 02:24:56 PM by seaad »

Online listener192

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There is always a connection to ground through one of the closed bottom relays. The BEMF voltage on a coil can be higher than the capacitor voltage, so current can still flow into capacitor.
PmgR

Yes, I just simulated that using relays (one section) and I got surprising recovery results, much better than semiconductor half bridges.

But that's only Falstad, (attached) really needs someone to confirm with Pspice.

Regards

L192

Online jerdee

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I looked back through the last few pages, I see no chart like that.


http://overunity.com/17653/pierres-170w-in-1600w-out-looped-very-impressive-build-continued-moderated/dlattach/attach/167603/image//  translated from


https://youtu.be/vii6o20_Vv8?t=25s


There is never a time when 0 LEDs are on except step 0.
The first step, 2, 26, 14 are on.
step 24 (25) wraps back to the start...
https://youtu.be/vii6o20_Vv8?t=38s


that LED pattern and what's in original videos matches.
There is either an LED that's out, or a transistor that is blown so the LED doesn't have much voltage backing? or there's wires crossing in front of it that cause a shadow, but there is never a time when all LEDs are off.


( from here http://overunity.com/17653/pierres-170w-in-1600w-out-looped-very-impressive-build-continued-moderated/msg520053/#msg520053  )





Both you and mcharbonnl are NOT referencing the original code that was sent from Pierre.  mcharbonnl’s vid shows the correct order of LED’s blinking from Pierre’s videos, however, when you take into account the audio from the video at 10% speed, you hear the double one and double off in the code.  You have to listen to the audio as well, not just look at the lights in the video! Go back to my earlier forum post and listen to the MP3 I attached.  Also, download the video, slow it down to 10%  and listen/look at the original code and compare.  You’ll see.

When you review my PDF, you'll see that each "x" position is the recovery diodes as well!  72 recovery diodes for 36 poles, and 60 recovery diodes for 30 poles.  Everything lines up here.  The audio, video, the code, number of relays, number of recovery diodes.  The only difference is 36 pole vs. 30 poles.  Hope this helps.

Jerdee

Offline webby1

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Yes, I just simulated that using relays (one section) and I got surprising recovery results, much better than semiconductor half bridges.

But that's only Falstad, (attached) really needs someone to confirm with Pspice.

Regards

L192

Not only are metal contacts bi-directional they also allow for simultaneous events to pass through them, and they can offer almost no resistance.

Offline cheors

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This one with the original coding: 2 HIGH and 2 LOW steps

https://youtu.be/GigDdTppB10

x = 10 (pot to min)
x =200 (pot to max)

Not easy to see the all off step when x=10

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