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Author Topic: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated  (Read 64791 times)

Online d3x0r

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The deductive powers here are amazing.


There's 36 independantly wound coils.  This gives the experimenter the absolute most control over what gets activated when.
There could roughly be 5 phases with 6 coils each in series... However, the timing on the LEDs of the transistors show that only 3 sets are active at a time a set being 1 or 2 coils on...




There board had 7 transistors across and 5 rows; which is only 35, but there is one toward the upper left that's like #36.


In the first two rows - 7 LEDs across, the LEDs light first going from right to left across the first and third rows.  As third row ends, the right side of row 2 starts.  Row 3 is just 2 LEDs ahead of row one.  But then the end of row 2 is reached and then 3 and 1 start again...


So there's not just 5 phases...


the 4th row starts at the right, goes across to the left and then starts again immediately.  when it gets to the 4th LED to the left, the 5th row starts... and remains offset 2 les...


// this really needs mono font/preformat... it's not  \[code\] ...
row 4   . . . . . . .   . . . . . . o  . . . . . o o  . . . . o o .     . . o o . .    . o o . . .
row 5   . . . . . . .   . . . . . . .   . . . . . . .    . . . . . .     . . . . . o    . . . . o o

I really liked andy's animation in the other thread, though it should be made more obvious it's more of a stepping like ....

coil 1,2 on;
coil 1 going off, coil 3 coming on,
coil 2,3 on
coil 2 going off, coil 4 coming on,
coil 3,4 on

etc....

There's a few stutters on the 4th and 5th rows... where it kinda stops...

Kinda like the iron filings moved around in two semi-circles and kinda stopped at the two sides; I thought maybe it was because that was also where the laminated core was ... but it's not quite.


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Online pedro1

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The numbers at the bottom of my sketch have no relation with what I explained in the video. The sketch is something I made for myself at beginning of my project. It is useless to look it try to find an answer to your questions. If you understood French, then you would know the sketch was only used to explain how I wound my stator.

Regards

Pierre Cotnoir
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 03:14:43 PM by gotoluc »

Offline cheors

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Blue LED sequence

https://youtu.be/vii6o20_Vv8

Sorry i forgot to publish the video.
i'ts Ok now.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 05:23:56 PM by cheors »

Online listener192

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Hi Luc, in my understanding of this device, you need first magnetize the core and after them sustain this with much little requeriments of energy, for that reason the field can't be detroyed, because if you destroy the field destroy the core magnetization, in Pierre video when he connect power supply to the arduino, begin first one initial sequence (i suppose that is for the core magnetization) and after that the working sequence well knowed.

Regards,

GM

DC magnetization around the stator reduces output with either polarity.

AC magnetization around the stator does increase output although I have only tested this asynchronously, which results in a cyclic boost in output.   

Sine modulation of the DC rail also boosts output but once again I have only tested asynchronously, so this was also cyclic.

Also I have placed a 20V AC transformer secondary in series with the 30 coils (30 slot stator), this also cyclically boosts output .

Regards

L192

Offline pmgr

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DC magnetization around the stator reduces output with either polarity.

AC magnetization around the stator does increase output although I have only tested this asynchronously, which results in a cyclic boost in output.   

Sine modulation of the DC rail also boosts output but once again I have only tested asynchronously, so this was also cyclic.

Also I have placed a 20V AC transformer secondary in series with the 30 coils (30 slot stator), this also cyclically boosts output .

Regards

L192
You can't have any DC flux. The rotor needs AC flux, only that way can you generate a voltage.

This setup is a combo of a 2 phase and 3 phase generator. The way each of the 6 coils (6 poles) needs to be biased is as follows (assuming they are numbered 1 through 6 in clock wise direction):

Coilset 1 and Coilset 4 needs to be biased 180deg out of sync (so if coilset 1 = +1, coilset 4 is -1 or 180deg).
Same for coilset 3 and coilset 6.
Same for coilset 5 and coilset 2.
Coilset 1, 5 and 3 need to be biased 120deg out of phase so if coilset 1 is 0deg, coilset 5 needs to be at 120deg and coilset 3 at 240deg.

Only in that way will the flux properly add up when it goes through the stator. You need to make sure that you can bias your coils in this way while looping around.
PmgR

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Online d3x0r

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It's a moving magnetic field.... literally, and the hard way...


in the case of allowed induction paths; (as tinman recently demonstrated, a incomplete loop is not likely to absorbe collapsing/expanding flux)


It's like those radus mag boos/( magnetic reluctance motor?  conventionally?) Flux-gate generator?


the thing is, it has a north in one semi-path and a south on the other, and they rotate, and skip back to the start and rotate again... and probably the thrash from left to right is more of the cycle's power than any other... it'd be nice to see what the output wave at the output coil (with a load) on the static-rotor, vs a logic state of the 36 others... though I'd take a raw pulse train at the capacitors... before any filtering/recapture diodes.




In the case of self induction (to go back to the first point )


As one field is energed and de-energizeswhat current is generated in the on the's going from no energy to positive current?  Does the current just sort of continue in the winding with near 0 resistance instead of the one with infinite (relay open) resistance... well that's not what the arduino is doing huh?  Because it entirely dis... well there is an overlap of each 2, but not 3... so I suppose the new one that's been enabled gets 2x the current?  (The field resists the colapse....)?  It's actually a dc(edit:NO!) output huh?  Because the field never reverses through the center stator-rotor(?)   


When the circuit is opened, the current that generated a magnetic does NOT instananously reverse... but rather it wants to continue.  Or else, they wouldn't use filtering beads to smooth instantanous peaks/lulls in current.  it(the current) will be induced in the same direction until the magneitc field is no more.  In this case, the general field is not no more.


Perhaps that's where the stutter mapps... because it does get a good deal of mangic reluctance builtup in the iron... Probably there's a de-gaussing direction momentarily....(?)

I don't see how you will ever get anywhere near this with any of the coils in series with any other coil. (@gotoluc)


Edit:
Otherwise it's PMH's ... setting up magnetic loops between all of the possible stator fins through the block, and then collapsing them? 


Oh i remember; there was a frequency measure on the output that was 60 hz So no it's not DC... but then 60 RPM


Edit2: Based on the last arduino video... This is the pattern...
Some of the coils are north, some are south.
Are the 72 relays connected   power->relay->coil->relay->transistor drive/diode recapture   so DPDT relays could work there?


1 transistor controls 2 relays... do the relays engage two pairs of coils?  Or is it 2 breaks in the same circuit?  (Only inventory can really answer)


I would think though that the polarity of any single coil is always the same....


The colored vertical bands group what seems to be a cyclic sub-group.  The cycle block color changes going down for each cycle.  A full pass (red blocks, or yellow, the green overflows into what would partially be the next cycle...) would be 16.666ms
« Last Edit: April 19, 2018, 01:30:48 AM by d3x0r »

Online jerdee

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Thank you for your help Pierre, looking forward to the translation from LUC.


Everyone, listen to the MP3 file attached.

  I was able to do forensic audio on the YT vids and extract the timing pattern.
This was pitched down considerably and slowed down to hear the pattern clearly.
You will hear immediately the pattern that was placed in the original code.  Pierre has been very honest! Two HIGH's at the beginning of 12 and TWO lows at the end of 12 pulses.
Each clack of the audio is a HIGH in the repeating pulsings of relays in the code.  His code is correct!


1-High
2-High
    low
3-High
    low
4-High
   low
5-High
   low
6-High
   low
7-High
   low
8-High
   low
9-High
   low
10-High
   low
11-High
   low
12-High
   low
   low


Just wanted everyone to know that this is the pattern, and there is no confusion on this. This was meant to be in the code !!!


Jerdee

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Online jerdee

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Why have we not thought of utilzing both a 36 and the 30 pole in normal generator cycles?


It is very clear that Pierre is using overlap of the code to push the magnetic field from set to another set of coils.  He is also reversing the coils!


I believe the CODE pins are not suppose to line up with coil numbers in succession. The code is correct, its the connection to the coils.  The HUGE clue is the TWO HIGH's and the TWO LOW in the code.  LEARN the cycle of a generator.


We have to think about another way to connect the code pins to the correct arrangement of coils.  Luc is only using 1/2 of his bridges and diode recovery.  I REPEAT HE IS ONLY USING HALF BRIDGES.  The coils need to be flipped just like a normal generator!!!  This is why we are getting a very weak field and very little output.


Maybe this gif will help you all to think about a three phase system.  THINK THINK THINK!


Look at the gif.


JerDee


[size=78%]https://solidstateelectricgenerator.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/syncron-generator.gif[/size]

Offline pmgr

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bonsoir a tous ,
j'ai regarder les progret que vous fesiez sur le site de overunity et naturelement j'ai vue l'exellent travail de luc et de sont superbe appareil qu'il a réussi a faire tourner un champ magnétique et il semble être sur la bonne voie mais il va toujour vous manquer quelque chose et je ne voit pas grand monde penser a ces points crutiaux vous êtes trop concentrer a faire une réplique de mon prototype les bobines,3pole ,6pole le nombre de transistor etc 
je voit que personne ne sait jamais poser  la vrai question de comment peut-on faire du courant  et qu'est ce qui se passe en décomposant le cycle d'une génératrice ,si vous comprener vraiment cela  par la suite vous serez en mesure de mieux comprendre le principe du dz générateur et vous n'aurez plus besoin d'essayer de copier le dz générateur qui est loin d'être parfait il y a beaucoup de chose a améliorer sur cette version
-permièrement ,que se passe t-il quand l'on approche une aimant d'une bobine il y a une variation du champ magnétique et plus l'on approche de la bobine collectrice il y a un champ d'opposition qui se crée donc une variation et l'intensité de cette aimant a une grande importance
donc VARIATION ET INTENSITÉ sont les mots a retenir
-deuxièmement ,quand la vitesse de déplacement de ce champ magnétique est passer rapidement plus grande seras la fluctuation sauf quand c'est une bobine électro-aimant il faut prendre note qu'il y a unTEMPS DE CHARGE  de la bobine et si le champ magnétique  est déplacé trop rapidement avant que la charge soit completement charger vous aurez une perte a ce niveau en plus de la perte du retour de bobine .
-troisiement ,le MOUVEMENT  de ce champ magnétique que vous avez commencer a expérimenter donc vous commencer a comprendre
-et  finalement il y a les RETOUR DE BOBINE si vous les canaliser au bon endroit et au bon moment vous aurez un alier très puissant et non seulement un destructeur de mosfet  cela s'avère un partenaire très intéressant a utiliser
 bien sure il y a des pertes dans les bobines et dans la resistance  etc, mais si l'on compare le dz générateur a une génératrice avec un moteur a combustion qui a des perte de friction de chaleur et l'électro-aimant du rotor que l'on doit alimenter  l'on doit frôler le 70% ou plus  de perte cela ne se compare pas au dz générateur au quelle j'ai éliminer la plus grosse perte c'est a dire le moteur a combustion  ,dans mon premier prototype j'ai fait des erreurs de conception
dans la bobine je croit que le fait de croiser les champs peuvent nuire a la performance c'est pour cela que j'ai changer ma méthode dans mon second prototype il y a surment plusieurs façon de concevoir un dz générateur je vient de vous fournir tout les ingrédient pour faire un tel apareil il suffit de faire votre propre recette  avec les 4 point que je vous ait donner et il est très probable  que vous obtiendrez un overunity il y a juste a mettre le bon dosage au bon endroit j'espère que vous prendrez note de ce message car c'est le secret du dz générateur ce sont les 4 point qui on été mentionner plus haut  si un de ces points n'est pas dans le montage que vous faite vous n'aurez jamais un surplus d'énergie j'espère que mon commentaire vous seras utile pour la suite et je ne traduirai pas ce message je vais laisser une autre personne faire la traduction car il parait que google traduction n'est pas très bon pour avoir une bonne traduction bonne soirée la dessus .
                                                                                                                                                                                      pierre cotnoir
Thank you Pierre for the explanation.


This is my take on his four points:

1. He mentions the CHANGE of a magnetic field (which is achieved by rotating the magnetic poles at a frequency f by the Arduino) and he talks about the change in the STRENGTH of the magnetic field itself (which is achieved by the change in current through the coils). The largest current change occurs for the coils that are shorted for a short time during the Arduino overlap; before the overlap, the current through this coil is e.g. positive, during the overlap the current is constant, then after the overlap it reverses direction and becomes negative). So it changes from a positive current to a negative current (large dI/dt), so on top of the rotating magnetic field, there is an additional change in magnetic field due to the change in current direction. As a side note: generated voltage at output coil (and for BEMF) V=-dflux/dt where flux=L*I (inductance*current), so V=-(I*dL/dt+L*dI/dt), first term is caused by the spinning magnetic field (also called parametric variation), second term is caused by change of current (caused by switching of current direction).

2. He talks about how fast the magnetic field changes which is proportional to the frequency at which the field spins around (frequency f). So the faster you spin the field the larger the generated voltage. However he mentions the TIME CONSTANT (load speed) of a coil. The highest frequency a coil can respond to is f=R/(2*pi*L). He says that if you spin the field too fast, you will get a loss trying to charge coil and thus also in the return of the coil. In order to get the highest possible frequency, there is a trade-off between R and L. R is proportional to the number of windings, L is proportional to N^2 (square of N), so frequency is proportional to 1/N. So if you want a large frequency, you can't make too many windings per coil.

3. He talks about the MOVEMENT of the magnetic field here which is done by the Arduino and he says that is we need to study that first. This is why I suggested Luc go back to the small magnet and play with the Arduino code and speed it up and down to see where the TIME CONSTANT (load speed) of his coils are. For Luc's coils, inductance is about L=2mH and R=0.5ohms, so highest frequency possible is about 40Hz. This might explain why he has no output at 50Hz as the coils can't respond fast enough. Typical safety factor is a factor of 2 below the f_max, so keep the spin speed at 20Hz or below.

4. Lastly he talks about the RETURN OF THE COIL (output coil) which will be reflected back to each of the six coil sets. He says that if you collect them at the right spot (coil) and at the right point in time, it will provide useful energy instead of destroying your mosfet. He says this is the most important point. In my understanding, this will also explain why his device is not dependent on load. Actually, the more load he puts on, the higher the collected current will be.

PmgR

Online d3x0r

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bonsoir a tous ,
champ d'opposition qui se crée donc une variation et l'intensité de cette aimant a une grande importance
donc VARIATION ET INTENSITÉ sont les mots a retenir
                                                                                                                                                                                      pierre cotnoir
How do you accomplish variance using digital relays?

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Offline pmgr

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How do you accomplish variance using digital relays?
I believe this is achieved during the overlap time of the Arduino when a coil is shorted, see my post above. The current in that particular coil will change direction, e.g. from +1 to -1 in a very short period of time (determined by L/R time of coil).
PmgR

Online listener192

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Thank you Pierre for the explanation.


This is my take on his four points:

1. He mentions the CHANGE of a magnetic field (which is achieved by rotating the magnetic poles at a frequency f by the Arduino) and he talks about the change in the STRENGTH of the magnetic field itself (which is achieved by the change in current through the coils). The largest current change occurs for the coils that are shorted for a short time during the Arduino overlap; before the overlap, the current through this coil is e.g. positive, during the overlap the current is constant, then after the overlap it reverses direction and becomes negative). So it changes from a positive current to a negative current (large dI/dt), so on top of the rotating magnetic field, there is an additional change in magnetic field due to the change in current direction. As a side note: generated voltage at output coil (and for BEMF) V=-dflux/dt where flux=L*I (inductance*current), so V=-(I*dL/dt+L*dI/dt), first term is caused by the spinning magnetic field (also called parametric variation), second term is caused by change of current (caused by switching of current direction).

2. He talks about how fast the magnetic field changes which is proportional to the frequency at which the field spins around (frequency f). So the faster you spin the field the larger the generated voltage. However he mentions the TIME CONSTANT (load speed) of a coil. The highest frequency a coil can respond to is f=R/(2*pi*L). He says that if you spin the field too fast, you will get a loss trying to charge coil and thus also in the return of the coil. In order to get the highest possible frequency, there is a trade-off between R and L. R is proportional to the number of windings, L is proportional to N^2 (square of N), so frequency is proportional to 1/N. So if you want a large frequency, you can't make too many windings per coil.

3. He talks about the MOVEMENT of the magnetic field here which is done by the Arduino and he says that is we need to study that first. This is why I suggested Luc go back to the small magnet and play with the Arduino code and speed it up and down to see where the TIME CONSTANT (load speed) of his coils are. For Luc's coils, inductance is about L=2mH and R=0.5ohms, so highest frequency possible is about 40Hz. This might explain why he has no output at 50Hz as the coils can't respond fast enough. Typical safety factor is a factor of 2 below the f_max, so keep the spin speed at 20Hz or below.

4. Lastly he talks about the RETURN OF THE COIL (output coil) which will be reflected back to each of the six coil sets. He says that if you collect them at the right spot (coil) and at the right point in time, it will provide useful energy instead of destroying your mosfet. He says this is the most important point. In my understanding, this will also explain why his device is not dependent on load. Actually, the more load he puts on, the higher the collected current will be.

PmgR

To look at what we have at the moment running...
The distributed (lapped) windings that a pole consists of, create an increasing and then decreasing MMF in the rotor as the pole approaches and departs, then continuing with an opposite polarity pole in the same manner. It does this without having to increase the current through the pole coil group.

As we know that does not induce much EMF in the rotor winding, there must be something else of which I have still not seen anybody clearly explain. Pierre previously referred to his system having a variation in current.

1. Did he mean a variation in current  that would result in a further variation of MMF already occuring due to the distributed windings? If so how so?

2. Or did mean something more drastic such as a complete reversal of current for the whole system, at some point i.e. swapping the relay feed rail polarity?

Regards

L192


Online d3x0r

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I believe this is achieved during the overlap time of the Arduino when a coil is shorted, see my post above. The current in that particular coil will change direction, e.g. from +1 to -1 in a very short period of time (determined by L/R time of coil).
PmgR


ya could be more or less windings inbetween tap  points too ...


like here if the coils were in series too I suppose you could activate sets of them... and for some, just reverse the polarity on the tap which would generate 'instant' opposite parlaity


http://overunity.com/17653/pierres-170w-in-1600w-out-looped-very-impressive-build-continued-moderated/msg519932/#msg519932




Offline Jeg

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Sine modulation of the DC rail also boosts output but once again I have only tested asynchronously, so this was also cyclic.

Also I have placed a 20V AC transformer secondary in series with the 30 coils (30 slot stator), this also cyclically boosts output .

I would like to thank all the people here especially Pierre who gave us a motivation to continue questing in this field.
Jerdee i am impressed!  ;)

L192
By placing the secondary in series with the coils isn't actually the same as modulating the dc rail? In fact this is what i had in mind to do for varying the strength of the magnetic filed. But with a diode in between transformer and coils, so to feed the whole arrangement with a varying dc power signal.
What did you chose for driving your coils? L298 boards as Luc?

Guys i have my fresh painted stator on bench and plenty of aug22 wire. I am thinking to go like Pierre's second generator so to be able to cover this method as the most of you have built his first prototype. I have a small objection in the number of turns (Pierre used 95 turns) as it will not permit frequencies higher than few tenths of Hz. Perhaps D3's middle tapping idea is what it needs for experimentation. Will see..! 



Online listener192

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I would like to thank all the people here especially Pierre who gave us a motivation to continue questing in this field.
Jerdee i am impressed!  ;)

L192
By placing the secondary in series with the coils isn't actually the same as modulating the dc rail? In fact this is what i had in mind to do for varying the strength of the magnetic filed. But with a diode in between transformer and coils, so to feed the whole arrangement with a varying dc power signal.
What did you chose for driving your coils? L298 boards as Luc?

Guys i have my fresh painted stator on bench and plenty of aug22 wire. I am thinking to go like Pierre's second generator so to be able to cover this method as the most of you have built his first prototype. I have a small objection in the number of turns (Pierre used 95 turns) as it will not permit frequencies higher than few tenths of Hz. Perhaps D3's middle tapping idea is what it needs for experimentation. Will see..!

Hi Jeg,

I have given up on the L298N boards, as soon as you increase current much over 4A I had multiple failures.

I have a BTS7960 twin bridge board on order for evaluation, but I have decided to now go with the relay boards until I can get an understanding of exactly how the recovery diodes are working, connected as Pierre has them. It looks like the current path is from ground via the remaining series coils in the group, though the coil that's been turned off then up through the diode on that side.
I would be reluctant to remove the lower diodes on a half bridge.

I went with 1000V 10A fast diodes for recovery.

Regards

L192

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