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Author Topic: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated  (Read 64788 times)

Offline gotoluc

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Hi Gotoluc,

I am finding that a single coil set outputs a reasonable voltage on the rotor however, when you add additional coil sets, output reduces and input current rises.

I have 4 poles between the coil 5 slot pitch, so  there is a 1 pole gap between poles.

So far, I have not  found an answer to this. 

Regards
L192

Well, that's interesting!
PmgR is certain there is no bucking coils event in my configuration even though I have 6 slot space compared to 5 slots.
Please have a look at the video I just posted (above post) for a visual confirmation of the coil firring and have a look at the wiring chart PmgR made to see if you can find something that could cause the ridiculously low output. Maybe the Half bridges are conducting through another path?

Thanks and everyones input is welcome. Please have a look TK to see if we are missing something. Keep in mind that 5 coils are powered in series plus one 50% overlap.

Regards
Luc

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Offline partzman

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If you do have that CH340G serial chip I just found a possible fix for it.  I'll try to attach it here.  I've run it through Virustotal.com also and it is all clear but you can check it too at www.virustotal.com

Again, quoted from my post #386-

All,

To maybe help sort out the the confusion, the 2560 board I shipped to Luc uses An Atmel Mega16U2 as compared to the original Arduino AtMega8u2 for USB communications.


Regards,
Pm

Offline listener191

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Well, that's interesting!
PmgR is certain there is no bucking coils event in my configuration even though I have 6 slot space compared to 5 slots.
Please have a look at the video I just posted (above post) for a visual confirmation of the coil firring and have a look at the wiring chart PmgR made to see if you can find something that could cause the ridiculously low output. Maybe the Half bridges are conducting through another path?

Thanks and everyones input is welcome. Please have a look TK to see if we are missing something. Keep in mind that 5 coils are powered in series plus one 50% overlap.

Regards
Luc




Hi Gotoluc,

I cannot see anything in either your build, or mine causing this problem, so I think my next move is to set up two opposing  poles N&S, positioned across the rotor, initially just one coil each, then just statically pulse them.

I want to see what happens with rotor induction.

Then add more coils in each pole group and check the result.


Regards

L192

Offline gotoluc

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Hi Gotoluc,

I cannot see anything in either your build, or mine causing this problem, so I think my next move is to set up two opposing  poles N&S, positioned across the rotor, initially just one coil each, then just statically pulse them.

I want to see what happens with rotor induction.

Then add more coils in each pole group and check the result.


Regards

L192

Yes, I agree! A better plan then rewinding my stator coils to a 5 slot space just to find the same issue ???
Baby steps for now.

Thanks for coming forward with this.

Regards
Luc

Offline webby1

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Would this be true?

S01, S04 closed then close S05 then open S01

So L1 would see 35 times the current as the rest of the coils to start with, then when S05 is closed L2 will see the same current as L1 and the other 34 coils will have the supply current instantly shut off, then when S01 opens L2 still sees the same current but the other 35 coils will then see 1\35th the current of L2 but in the opposite direction as before.

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Offline ARTMOSART

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Well, that's interesting!
PmgR is certain there is no bucking coils event in my configuration even though I have 6 slot space compared to 5 slots.
Please have a look at the video I just posted (above post) for a visual confirmation of the coil firring and have a look at the wiring chart PmgR made to see if you can find something that could cause the ridiculously low output. Maybe the Half bridges are conducting through another path?

Thanks and everyones input is welcome. Please have a look TK to see if we are missing something. Keep in mind that 5 coils are powered in series plus one 50% overlap.

Regards
Luc

luc ,

j'ai visionné ta vidéo je remarque que seul 6 led sont actif ,si je comprend bien le schéma de pmgR ,il faudrait 12 contacte actif
par pas ,on dirais que dans ton cas présent 3x10 bobine sont actif au lieu de 6x5 bobine ?   

Mosha

 
I saw your video I noticed that only 6 led are active, if I understand the diagram of pmgR, it would take 12 active contact by step, we would say that in this case 3x10 coil are active instead of 6x5 coil?

Offline seaad

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I just observed in Lucs last video with the consecutive LEDs in ultra slow sequence that the LED comes on and goes off in "two brightness steps" !
Maybe the camera fools me?

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Offline listener191

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See the rough sketch attached.

For 5 coils on a 5 slot pitch, 63 slots would allow all applied current to be realized as flux through the rotor.

You need a 5 + 1 slot gap between the coil groups to ensure the poles don't overlap.

The way we are proceeding at the moment much of the flux is cancelled out.



L192
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 10:38:24 AM by listener191 »

Offline MichelM

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Well, that's interesting!
PmgR is certain there is no bucking coils event in my configuration even though I have 6 slot space compared to 5 slots.
Please have a look at the video I just posted (above post) for a visual confirmation of the coil firring and have a look at the wiring chart PmgR made to see if you can find something that could cause the ridiculously low output. Maybe the Half bridges are conducting through another path?

Thanks and everyones input is welcome. Please have a look TK to see if we are missing something. Keep in mind that 5 coils are powered in series plus one 50% overlap.

Regards
Luc

Luc, I made this drawing to help with the reflection. This is your configuration on the 30-groove rotor, with each coil on 6 grooves. All pairs of coils in each of the grooves are in opposition.

I'm sure yes, but I ask the question anyway, did you mate the ends of the coil wires in series, joining the end of the previous coil with the beginning of the next coil (considering the direction of the 'winding)?

FR
Luc, j'ai fait ce dessin pour aider à la réflexion. C'est votre configuration sur le rotor à 30 rainures, avec chaque bobine sur 6 rainures. Toutes les paires de bobines dans chacune des 30 rainures sont en opposition.

Je suis certain que oui, mais je pose la question quand même, avez-vous bien accouplé les extrémités des fils des bobines en série, en joignant la fin de la bobine précédente avec le début de la bobine suivante (en considérant le sens de l'enroulement) ?

Offline onielsen

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Hi Luc,

I think Mosha points out the problem:
Quote
I saw your video I noticed that only 6 led are active, if I understand the diagram of pmgR, it would take 12 active contact by step, we would say that in this case 3x10 coil are active instead of 6x5 coil?

The number of magnetic half poles have to be an even number as magnetic fields always curls back forming loops. This is a problem in your stator! It is a 1.5 poled stator as it has 1.5 pole sets. Thus a return path for the last pole is missing or actually 1.5 poles are missing if making a three poled stator.

Regards
Ole

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Offline onielsen

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Flux path with two positive and one negative input. If all three inputs have the same polarity there's no magnetic field generated.

Regards
Ole

Offline pmgr

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Hi Luc,

I think Mosha points out the problem:
The number of magnetic half poles have to be an even number as magnetic fields always curls back forming loops. This is a problem in your stator! It is a 1.5 poled stator as it has 1.5 pole sets. Thus a return path for the last pole is missing or actually 1.5 poles are missing if making a three poled stator.

Regards
Ole
Ole, that is not correct. Take a look at the H-bridge image from before (with red and black wires) and the one below. One LED in Luc's setup controls 1 H-bridge. Each H-bridge makes a connection to +Vss with red output and to GND with black output. So even though you only see 3 LEDs on, 6 connections are made (three to Vss and three to GND).


See the image below when H-bridges 1, 11 and 21 are on: all 6 poles are activated in this case in opposite directions from eachother.


The only thing I can think of is that maybe the frequency is too high for L/R coil times and iron stator/rotor, or coils where not connected properly on the stator (start and end of winding reversed, or coil put in while rotated 180deg. But I asked Luc this same question and he said he carefully paid attention to all this when assembling the rotor.


The other thing is that he was able to spin the small magnet without problem, so the only thing I can think of is that the current Arduino frequency is too high.


Luc, I suggest you upload the sketch with the potentiometer so you can change the frequency to a lower/higher one easily and see what happens with the output coil voltage (make sure to leave it open, no load). Changing the frequency you should see the voltage increase when frequency goes higher (until you hit the R/L cut-off frequency). Voltage should go down when the frequency goes down. I suggest playing with it in the lower frequency range like 1-20Hz or so.


Also, put the magnet back in and start at a low frequency and let it spin, then turn up the frequency to see when it cuts out so you know how high you can go in frequency before it stops spinning (of course the thing has some mass, so it will not be an exact cut-off but it will give you a ball-park value).
PmgR
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 01:36:36 AM by gotoluc »

Offline onielsen

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Hi PmgR,

Quote
See the image below when H-bridges 1, 11 and 21 are on: all 6 poles are activated in this case in opposite directions from eachother.


The only thing I can think of is that maybe the frequency is too high for L/R coil times and iron stator/rotor, or coils where not connected properly on the stator (start and end of winding reversed, or coil put in while rotated 180deg. But I asked Luc this same question and he said he carefully paid attention to all this when assembling the rotor.


The other thing is that he was able to spin the small magnet without problem, so the only thing I can think of is that the current Arduino frequency is too high.
That looks OK then.

I would suggest increasing the frequency as transformers and inductors have to have quite much inductance at low frequencies. The parasitic resistance of the wire becomes dominating which is just waste of power as heat. If using ferrite as magnetic conductor the frequency could be say 50kHz or more depending on ferrite type. This gives a very much higher power density. Just look at how light weight a several hundred Watts power supply of high switching frequency is compared to a 50Hz power supply of the same power. The high frequency requires less inductance of the coils. The motor stator can't take that high frequency but should be OK for perhaps 100Hz.

Regards
Ole

Offline gmolina

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Hi Luc, i think that little details can change everything, i see that Pierre stator winding is similar to the attached image, and your winding, look different.

Regards,

GM

Offline gotoluc

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Hi Luc, i think that little details can change everything, i see that Pierre stator winding is similar to the attached image, and your winding, look different.

Regards,

GM

I agree that looks more like Pierre's windings but your drawing does not explain how it is wound.
Can you explain more of what you think is going on?

Regards
Luc

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