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Author Topic: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !  (Read 2223623 times)

aleks

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #690 on: March 16, 2008, 03:43:57 PM »
Uh, actually I think that torsion is not wasted energy as it is not converted to another form.
With a pendulum, most likely its' v would be calculated by the vertical drop and the distance it would travel.
 In other words, if its' swing is twice the distance as the vertical drop, then it would have 1/2 the acceleration rate of gravity.
 So what would need to be accounted for is the slower rate of acceleration. And how does its' motion effect this ? Does it cause a further slowing in its' acceleration or does it help to increase it ?
 Such as, if the fulcrum is being lifted, does this cause the bob to lose force relative to the lift of the fulcrum ?
I do not mean torsion, but when pendulum swings it stretches. Stretching usually wastes energy by turning into heat and the material that stretches loses its mechanic durability. On the other hand if we pretend that pendulum's arm stretching does not cause energy loss and always recovers then this suggests that inertia inversion in a large body without much energy expense is possible. You just have to think how it's possible. However, if you change inertia into the direction opposite to fall, the inertia will quickly revert to zero due to ever-lasting gravity pull. This means that the other element of "gravity engine" beside inertia shielding (or redirecting) is required: which is gravity pull shielding, and that is out of the scope of just the mechanical device. Well, if my speculations on gravity are valid: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Anti-Gravity:DC_Acoustic_Waves_Hypothesis then gravity device should include some exploding or imploding processes just to be able to shield the earthly gravity force.

petersone

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #691 on: March 22, 2008, 08:56:01 PM »
Spent hours reading this topic,and others,one thing comes to mind,that is,if it is so important to have the correct balance between pendalum and lever,how come you can"do what you like with the lever,and it makes no difference to the pendalum."when in reality it will make a lot of difference,I've tried it.I think if it is going to work,anythink you do with the lever has to be factored in to the set up,any change to the work done by the lever, the setup must be redone.
smashing forum,I spend far more hours on here than I should.

JBB

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #692 on: April 14, 2008, 05:31:42 PM »
Hi all,

I had a chance to work and experiment with the two-stage mechanical oscillator of Veljko Milkovic you are talking here about.

I did several analyses that confirmed Milkovic's claims and here are the first two that are translated in English:
 
ANALYSIS OF THE INFLUENCE OF THE CENTRIFUGAL FORCE DURING OPERATION OF THE TWO-STAGE MECHANICAL OSCILLATOR BY VELJKO MILKOVIĆ:
"...It seems clear that the influence of the centrifugal force is the key to the explanation of the energy surplus of the two-stage oscillator by Veljko Milković, the inventor."
http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/Images/Analysis_Jovan_Bebic_1.pdf

MEASURING THE RATIO OF OUTPUT AND INPUT ENERGY OF THE TWO-STAGE MECHANICAL OSCILLATOR BY VELJKO MILKOVIĆ:
"...Therefore, ratio of energy at the output and energy at the input is 22.89..."
http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/Images/Analysis_Jovan_Bebic_2-measuring.pdf



ChileanOne

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #693 on: April 14, 2008, 05:54:05 PM »
Hello JBB:

Thanks for bringing these papers here. I am not math wizard, but I see some outstanding oversimplifications in your ideas, that might lead to very heated debate. Not telling that your conclusions are wrong, not at all, just that the numbers will be debated and probably for a long time, so I amsking you to take a step back and look at it from a bit more far to try and see what I might be refereing to.

Regards!

astroshima

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #694 on: April 14, 2008, 11:19:17 PM »
MEASURING THE RATIO OF OUTPUT AND INPUT ENERGY OF THE TWO-STAGE MECHANICAL OSCILLATOR BY VELJKO MILKOVIĆ:
"...Therefore, ratio of energy at the output and energy at the input is 22.89..."
http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/Images/Analysis_Jovan_Bebic_2-measuring.pdf[/li][/list]

Congratulations Jovan!!!
Finally somebody (trying to) do a real work-energy measurement.
BTW I did the same measurement but with different device so our results are different.
The way I solved "the problem" with measuring heights on weight 2 (output) was to do 10 experiments and use average or minimal heights values...but I suppose that even this one experiment could be enough for the insight about the magnitude of output work...
1. For your measurement to have more scientific and other influence I think you should shot experiment with video camera... ofcourse if you have time and resources... You can use paper and draw lines on it as a ruler. Then put the paper behind weights ...so the camera(s) can catch almost exact heights!

2. I think the one more (little) different experiment is needed so I ask you, or somebody else, to do it! PLEASE!
That would be the final proof!
Put some consumer or generator to measure output work!!! For example try to do electric measurement with unimer or oscilloscope or ...
Since we now exactly know input work, by putting consumer or generator on the output end, we could precisely measure and prove or disprove overunity! If you or somebody else do this and document whole experiment with video camera and if that measurement show overunity, you (or somebody who do this) will be world famous (scientist and) person!!!
PC: I think all previous experiments (done by other people) that show forces "measurement" have no scientific or real value, but this type of (work, energy) measurement, like you do, are the real ones!!! You have precise data about input work. That is something that hasn't been done  yet! (Stroking pendulum with dynamo lamp do not show input (energy or) work and observing large output forces also do not show output (energy or) work!)

One more Congratulations on your effort to do the real scientific measurements!!!
« Last Edit: April 15, 2008, 12:32:35 AM by astroshima »

astroshima

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #695 on: April 14, 2008, 11:50:49 PM »
Hello JBB:

Thanks for bringing these papers here. I am not math wizard, but I see some outstanding oversimplifications in your ideas, that might lead to very heated debate. Not telling that your conclusions are wrong, not at all, just that the numbers will be debated and probably for a long time, so I amsking you to take a step back and look at it from a bit more far to try and see what I might be refereing to.

Regards!

Man Help us all! Please tell us what you see!
What oversimplifications? I am not professor of physics. I am not even a student. But I see and "understand" Jovan's experiment. He is finally trying to use scientific measurements here! So please help us! Tell us what we can't or do not see!

astroshima

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #696 on: April 15, 2008, 12:30:10 AM »
"It is also important to notice that, according to the energy conservation law; total
potential energy of the lifted weight is wasted on deforming the surface and heat emitted
into the surroundings, when the freefalling weight hits the surface."

Damn... I do not know physics well, but I think we could maybe have a problem here...
What if this whole system behaves like one big pendulum?

If we lift the pendulum weight and measure heights that it reaches we will also have "overunity" on a single pendulum weight itself! 
But as I remember from physics book that its not the case because of the "pendulum law" - forgive my ignorance if I made mistake!
Our "deforming the surface and heat emitted" in that case could be air resistance and sliding friction at pendulum joint point.

So (I think) the only way to prove "overunity" is to do real useful work on output end of the system and to measure it!
So we should put some generator or consumer and measure useful output work!

Mr.Entropy

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #697 on: April 15, 2008, 05:04:46 AM »
MEASURING THE RATIO OF OUTPUT AND INPUT ENERGY OF THE TWO-STAGE MECHANICAL OSCILLATOR BY VELJKO MILKOVIĆ:
"...Therefore, ratio of energy at the output and energy at the input is 22.89..."
http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/Images/Analysis_Jovan_Bebic_2-measuring.pdf[/li]
[li][/li]
[/list]
Your output measurement is incorrect.  Even when falling, the hammer is being held up to a large extent by the pendulum on the other end of the lever.  It therefore hits the anvil much more slowly than it would if it were falling freely, and delivers only a small part the potential that was stored by lifting it.

AlanA

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #698 on: April 15, 2008, 08:40:06 PM »
Hi Jovan,

I am not in the position to doubt about your measurements. My question is: What con I do with Milkovics mechanical socillation system. For what is it good for? Is it possible to get energy form it? I think no one want to stand beside a pendulum and push them every 10 seconds?

Kul_ash

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #699 on: April 16, 2008, 01:58:22 PM »
I am having trouble in digesting a concept that at the peak of pendulum swing, it will have "weightlessness". If the pendulum is weightless for say fraction of a second means PE = mgh  = 0 and KE = 0 and that all energy is totally taken out of pendulum system to provide work to the weight of hammer, then how does it get back the energy to run the system again and going down?
If pendulum is going down then it means it also gave away all its energy and generated enough energy again from no where to fall back. If you are calling inertia will take back the pendulum then if there is no mass, no PE, what is its value?
Also can any one tell me is any one ever closed this loop or is it still in theory only?

Kul_ash

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #700 on: April 16, 2008, 02:09:31 PM »
I am also failing to understand Jovan's analysis of centrifugal work doing extra work. Isn't it the centripetal force that is responsible for circular movement of pendulum? If there is no centripetal force, then pendulum can not move in that motion. And isn't this centripetal force equal and opposite to centrifugal force as per Newtons law? Then how come centrifugal force is doing additional work?

PYRODIN123321

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #701 on: April 16, 2008, 05:50:10 PM »

hmmm
« Last Edit: April 18, 2008, 04:13:48 PM by PYRODIN123321 »

Prophmaji

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #702 on: April 18, 2008, 06:38:40 AM »
it is very simple to test. Make a basic set up that functions, use a large heavy wheel on the output side..and connect to the central bearing of the heavy wheel by the use of two ratchets, one on each side of the rotating wheel's bearing.  Connect to the vertical arm via springs, to the ratchets. This keeps the energy in the springs and releases it effectively to the rotating massive wheel.

Then pull power off the rotating wheel.

Of course..that experiment then brings other ideas to mind......

This device, is 'sound'.. it is an application of the fact that gravitation is a 'polarized-oriented-gradient'.
It is NOT equal in the vertical vs the horizontal orientation, with regards to energy given and taken, with respects to physical distances moved. This application takes advantage of that simple point.

This point, in combination with Bessler type massive wheels and magnets, can be used to move the steel balls around the wheel positions when the balls are nearly in the horizontal domain/position, to positions either closer in or further out for greater or less leverage. Far less energy is required to move the balls when they are horizontal. Static magnets positioned slightly away from the moving wheel can be used to force the balls about.

2b

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #703 on: April 28, 2008, 07:27:36 PM »
Veljko Milkovic

all he has to do is use 2 big syringes and some tubing
to show "overunity" or "perpetual motion".  you just
connect the "needle end" of each syringe with tubing
(best to use as big of holes and tubing as possible),
fill one syringe and the tubing with water, and then
use the downward force of the dead weight to press on the
syringe full of water, and then use the force of the
empty syringe expanding (on the other end of the tubing)
to push the pendulum weight.  on the upward stroke of
the dead weight, the respective syringe refills itself.

2b

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #704 on: April 28, 2008, 09:05:36 PM »
in other words ...

you need to use hydraulics to prove "over-unity" or "perpetual motion" with the Milkovic machine.  you might be able to improvise with 2 syringes, some tubing, & water.

hydraulics will also allow you to convert from a "small distance, large force" (the dead weight), to a "long distance, small force" (to push the oscillating weight).