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Author Topic: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !  (Read 2213711 times)

rlortie

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #855 on: February 25, 2009, 07:59:46 PM »
Edit; DP

Bessler007

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #856 on: February 26, 2009, 08:11:34 AM »
Merg,
. . .

My above post regarding the secondary lever was simply throwing a concept out to see what kind of response and discussion it would bring.  No much response was there!  ;)

Ralph   

Quote
rlortie said:  While doing some mail box cleaning this post popped up, it was written by a contact of mine who is known as "the builder" on the Milkovic forum. It does not necessarily reflect my personal views on the subject.


Quote
The Builder said:  If, as Veljiko has done, we fasten the pivot point to a secondary arm and allow this arm to translate this previously hidden energy then the
possibility to extract and utilize this "force" is a possibility.


Good idea the builder had.



Bessler007
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Bessler007

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #857 on: February 26, 2009, 08:21:16 AM »
I don't know if anyone has built a model to measure the difference between the energy of the bob swinging and the energy of the arm lifting up and down.  I used wm2d to see the difference in the rotational kinetic energy of the two.

Here's the results.  It does appear to me there's adequate energy in the arm moving up and down to cause the pendulum to swing forever.

I might have to launch the black helicopters.



Bessler007
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Bessler007

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #858 on: February 26, 2009, 09:41:39 AM »
Some ideas from Hans @ Kelly.net:

http://www.keelytech.com/news/milkovic.html

Hello Hans,

I was wondering if you could tell me where the patent you got this graphic from is.


Bessler007

edit:

Interesting site with double pendulums:

http://www.myphysicslab.com/dbl_pendulum.html
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 10:18:08 AM by Bessler007 »

Nabo00o

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #859 on: February 26, 2009, 10:24:37 AM »
Merg,

Yup! one of my posts on Besslerwheel.com, and the whole thing should be in a quote box. But tha'ts OK as the point is made.

A number of people have and are involved with this Milkovic contraption and as stated elswhere none have been able to make a self-sustainer out of the alleged 12 X power gain????

From what I understand using a stationary suspended pendulum the best one can expect is 3 X the static weight,  but here again the amount of dynamic input is not measured. I would think that the moving pivot would dampen this making it less not more.

My above post regarding the secondary lever was simply throwing a concept out to see what kind of response and discussion it would bring.  No much response was there!  ;)

Ralph   

rlortie, Yes we can see this. The more you allow the pivot of the pendulum to move, then more of the stored energy will be lost.
There is one simple trick to take the efficiency or COP of this thing from maybe 3 or 4 to high up into 100! And that is to restrict the pivot from moving almost at all, by increasing the resistance it meets in the load (a heavy lead weight perhaps or adjusting the leverage on the hinge).

But then you will need a bigger weight on the pendulum side, but still the efficiency will be much higher. So easily put, going big with this machine will increase its performance many times. Hope some of you guys can soon show up with some positive results on this.
As for me I am going to make a modification to this, by making it fully rotational :)

Merg

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #860 on: February 26, 2009, 05:19:55 PM »
Some ideas from Hans @ Kelly.net:

http://www.keelytech.com/news/milkovic.html

Hello Hans,

I was wondering if you could tell me where the patent you got this graphic from is.


Did you think on this patent?
http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/Images/Patenti/Patent17.jpg

rlortie

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #861 on: February 26, 2009, 05:34:25 PM »
Hans wrote on Keelynet:


Quote
From bitter experience in almost 50 years as an engineer I am painfully aware how easy it is to overlook the obvious, especially when one is working with a device that almost does the job and "needs only a few adjustments".

Either I am going cross-eyed or the linkage on the above posted 'Patent.jpg  is backwards! The pulse lever will be raising when to pulse it must be dropping.

Anyone wish to correct me?

Ralph

Bessler007

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #862 on: February 26, 2009, 08:06:35 PM »
Quote
The timing Hans has seems to make sense.

I'm sorry, I was looking at the wrong drawing.

The swing of the pendulum is fairly constant in the results of the simulation I posted.  The blue line on the first graph is the rotational kinetic energy of the heavy lever.  The red line on that graph is the energy of the heavy lever after the energy of the pendulum is subtracted from it.

The area under the red curve represents the excess energy of the system after the energy of the pendulum is supplied; this is with 100% efficiency and is rotational.  That's an ideal no one can ever achieve yet none the less there's substantial net energy in this amplification.

This is without a doubt the most significant gravity powered device I've ever seen published.




Bessler007
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Bessler007

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #863 on: February 26, 2009, 08:14:29 PM »
Thank you Merg; that answered my question.




Bessler007
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Bessler007

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #864 on: February 27, 2009, 07:12:52 AM »
I was looking at a variation of this mechanical oscillator with wm2d to see what the factor of rotational energy of the pendulum was to that of the heavy lever arm and it does seem peak at 15x.

That isn't the most significant thing I noticed.  A mere 2645 pound heavy lever peaks at a surplus of 365 kWh in a little over 4.5 seconds.  It's not a constant energy but it sure is extreme.




Bessler007

utilitarian

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #865 on: February 27, 2009, 07:41:11 AM »
I was looking at a variation of this mechanical oscillator with wm2d to see what the factor of rotational energy of the pendulum was to that of the heavy lever arm and it does seem peak at 15x.

That isn't the most significant thing I noticed.  A mere 2645 pound heavy lever peaks at a surplus of 365 kWh in a little over 4.5 seconds.  It's not a constant energy but it sure is extreme.

Bessler007

Are you sure you are not just observing an illusion similar to chaotic pendulums?  For example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foZHjI8Lydo

Bessler007

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #866 on: February 27, 2009, 09:03:42 AM »
Hello utilitarian,

No.  This concept is the most significant application of gravity power I've ever seen.  Anyone interested in free energy should attempt to get their minds around this.

There are some interesting ideas about this mechanical amplifier.

It answers a question I was asked years ago.  I wish he were here to see the answer.  We could ride his suicide shift Indians with helmets equipped with an rf link and cruise the back roads talking about it.  Hell has no angels.

This is a significant idea on two levels.

I plan on elaborating in my blog.




Bessler007

utilitarian

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #867 on: February 27, 2009, 03:45:09 PM »
Hello utilitarian,

No.  This concept is the most significant application of gravity power I've ever seen.  Anyone interested in free energy should attempt to get their minds around this.

There are some interesting ideas about this mechanical amplifier.

It answers a question I was asked years ago.  I wish he were here to see the answer.  We could ride his suicide shift Indians with helmets equipped with an rf link and cruise the back roads talking about it.  Hell has no angels.

This is a significant idea on two levels.

I plan on elaborating in my blog.

Bessler007

But if there is excess energy being generated, why does the device stop over time and not go on forever?

I do not see how the Milkovic device is meaningfully different from a chaos pendulum.  Google "chaos pendulum" on youtube and you will see many more examples.

I am not sure exactly how you derive your graph, but is it possible you assign too much energy to the falling weight because you do not account for the counterweight?  I mean, you cannot simply take the mass of the hammer and calculate the energy based on that, because it is not free-falling.  It is partially balanced on the other side, so it is only able to impart a fraction of it's mass in kinetic energy.  Pardon if I have not used the correct terminology, but you get what I am saying I hope.

Bessler007

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #868 on: February 27, 2009, 05:37:14 PM »
utilitarian,

I have to admit I've let results of wm2d get the best of me before. 

The blue line on the graph is the kinetic energy of the massive lever.  The red line is what is left of that energy (instant by instant) after the expense of the pendulum is paid for.  The simulation calculated 2000 times/second.

The area under the red curve represents the excess energy of the system.  You can see the energy alternates above and below a zero reference.  What that means is an equal amount of energy above zero is needed to offset that below to arrive at the accurate amount of surplus energy.

As of yet I don't see why the excess energy can't drive the double pendulum.

This double pendulum operates within a constrained range; the motion isn't chaotically running where ever it will.  That's a key difference.

There are other differences.

This is a very significant device.  It's been termed "the invention of a simple machine".  That's not true; Milkovic didn't invent the double pendulum.  However he did notice a fascinating quality they exhibit.  He deserves credit for that.  He found a needle in the haystack.



Bessler007

neptune

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #869 on: February 27, 2009, 08:28:47 PM »
I read an article a few weeks ago on the Milkovitch device, that does not seemed to have been mentioned here. The article was on Free Energy News from Wikipedia. The gist of said article was that the most efficient time to feed energy to the pendulum, was at the end of its stroke, when the bob is weightless. This was done by moving the pendulums pivot horizontally. But I dont remember in which direction, although it was in the same plane that the pendulum swings. You could easily test this with a weight on a string. this could be the key to the whole problem.