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Author Topic: 170 watts in - 1600 watts out - looped - Very impressive build and video  (Read 65176 times)

Offline oscar

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Re: 170 watts in - 1600 watts out - looped - Very impressive build and video
« Reply #480 on: April 02, 2018, 12:27:44 PM »
Hi Pierre,
thanks for re-plublishing your 4 videos on your channel

Hi all,
attached is an animated gif of  Pierre's switching sequence as I understand it

I started out drawing the small static image at the bottom of this posting showing 36 coils, with 1 set of 6 coils energized (the coloured lines),
- red and blue symbolizing magnetic N and S
- the numbers in the image symbolize the 36 slots
- the depicted coils are "wound"  according to Pierre's magic numbers as proven true by r2fpl

...a coil span of 6 slots ...
01-06 07-12 13-18 19-24 25-30 31-36
02-07 08-13 14-19 20-25 26-31 32-01
03-08 09-14 15-20 21-26 27-32 33-02
04-09 10-15 16-21 22-27 28-33 34-03
05-10 11-16 17-22 23-28 29-34 35-04
06-11 12-17 18-23 24-29 30-35 36-05

 I note that his one has his magic number sequence 01-06 ; 02-07; 03-08, etc. see post #170.

the animation is meant to show two coil sets (each consisting of 6 coils) energized overlapping in time, to not interrupt the field, as per Pierre's advice.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2018, 03:59:40 PM by oscar »

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Offline r2fpl

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Re: 170 watts in - 1600 watts out - looped - Very impressive build and video
« Reply #481 on: April 02, 2018, 01:14:59 PM »
oscar, 
excellent animation  :D

It is possible that power on allways 36 coils but only 6 changes off.

Pierre could also do that and talk about 6 not on but off.

Offline T-1000

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Re: 170 watts in - 1600 watts out - looped - Very impressive build and video
« Reply #482 on: April 02, 2018, 01:42:02 PM »
the animation is meant to show two coil sets (each consisting of 6 coils) energized overlapping in time, to not interrupt the field, as per Pierre's advice.

When watching Pierre's 1st video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7BZeeJmvjY in slow motion you will notice there are 7 LEDs activated at the end of 6 relay switch activation cycle. Not sure why 7 as there is 3 phase being rotated..
Also if you flip from one coil into neighboring second without having middle point activated it will cause spikes and nowhere near smooth transition from one to another.

Offline r2fpl

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Re: 170 watts in - 1600 watts out - looped - Very impressive build and video
« Reply #483 on: April 02, 2018, 01:56:12 PM »
When watching Pierre's 1st video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7BZeeJmvjY in slow motion you will notice there are 7 LEDs activated at the end of 6 relay switch activation cycle. Not sure why 7 as there is 3 phase being rotated..
Also if you flip from one coil into neighboring second without having middle point activated it will cause spikes and nowhere near smooth transition from one to another.

No 7,  8 !  see 1 relay frame by frame.

1 relay, position (corner) left bottom.

There is more dependence here than we think.

Offline T-1000

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Re: 170 watts in - 1600 watts out - looped - Very impressive build and video
« Reply #484 on: April 02, 2018, 02:18:06 PM »
No 7,  8 !  see 1 relay frame by frame.

Well, apparently there is middle transition as I suspected. 12 relays have delayed active state for while 9 new LEDs are lit on arduino board.


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Re: 170 watts in - 1600 watts out - looped - Very impressive build and video
« Reply #484 on: April 02, 2018, 02:18:06 PM »
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Offline seaad

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Re: 170 watts in - 1600 watts out - looped - Very impressive build and video
« Reply #485 on: April 02, 2018, 02:44:40 PM »
Some LEDs hides behind the wiring
The 3rd pic is taken during a switch phase more LEDs  to be seen!

Offline MichelM

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Re: 170 watts in - 1600 watts out - looped - Very impressive build and video
« Reply #486 on: April 02, 2018, 04:49:17 PM »
The explanation is in his Arduino code.
Indeed, Pierre said that each transistor triggers 2 relays, so 2 lights must light on the relays when only one command "digitalWrite (n, HIGHT) is executed.
Let's look closely at his code, for example the following line:
digitalWrite(4,HIGH), digitalWrite(16,HIGH), digitalWrite(28,HIGH);
This line orders the closure of 6 relays, 3 North and 3 South, sequentially.
But, let's look at 2 lines above, in the code. We have this:
digitalWrite(3,HIGH), digitalWrite(15,HIGH), digitalWrite(27,HIGH);
That is to say that the 6 previous relays are still closed (their Leds are still lit),
because these relays will only be open with the next line.
So, at the moment following the reading of the line ending with "digitalWrite(28,HIGH);"
There are 12 closed relays - 12 LEDs lit.
The line after opens 3 pairs of relays, so off 6 led. At this moment, 6 LEDs in total (on the relays) are lit.
As the ignition and extinction of LEDs of the relay is carried out sequentially, ranging from 6 to 12, when viewing the motion video, we can observe from 6 to 12 LEDs lit on the relay (note that some LEDs can be hidden by the connecting wires).


FR
L'explication se trouve dans son code Arduino.
En effet, Pierre a dit que chaque transistor déclenche 2 relais, donc 2 lumières doivent s'allumer sur les relais lorsqu'une seule commande "digitalWrite(n, HIGHT) est exécutée.
Regardons attentivement son code, par exemple la ligne suivante :
digitalWrite(4,HIGH), digitalWrite(16,HIGH), digitalWrite(28,HIGH);
Cette ligne ordonne la fermeture de 6 relais, 3 Nord et 3 Sud, de façon séquentielle.
Mais, regardons 2 lignes au-dessus, dans le code. Nous avons ceci :
digitalWrite(3,HIGH), digitalWrite(15,HIGH), digitalWrite(27,HIGH);
C'est à dire que les 6 relais précédents sont encore fermés (leurs Leds sont encore allumées),
car ces relais ne seront ouvert qu'avec la ligne suivante.
Donc, à l'instant qui suit la lecture de la ligne se terminant par "digitalWrite(28,HIGH);"
Il y a 12 relais fermés - 12 leds allumées.
La ligne d'après ouvre 3 couples de relais, donc éteint 6 led. A cet instant précis, 6 Leds en tout (sur les relais) sont allumées.
Comme l'allumage et l'extinction des leds des relais s'effectue séquentiellement, variant de 6 à 12, lorsqu'on observe la vidéo image par image, nous pouvons observer entre 6 et 12 Leds allumées sur les relais (notons que certaines Leds peuvent être cachées par les fils de jonction).
« Last Edit: April 02, 2018, 09:01:45 PM by MichelM »

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Re: 170 watts in - 1600 watts out - looped - Very impressive build and video
« Reply #486 on: April 02, 2018, 04:49:17 PM »
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Offline seaad

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Re: 170 watts in - 1600 watts out - looped - Very impressive build and video
« Reply #487 on: April 02, 2018, 05:19:09 PM »
 :
Hi PmgR,
Seaad posted in another forum "I have toggled the film frame by frame and found that it is always between 6 -12 relay LEDs lit simultaneously"
It may be the overlap is only 1ms, so easily missed that 12 coils are on at the same time?
Regards L192
MichelM  :)

Offline MenofFather

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Re: 170 watts in - 1600 watts out - looped - Very impressive build and video
« Reply #488 on: April 02, 2018, 10:13:58 PM »
About 7-8 leds... I think camera filming in 25 or 30 FPS, so some leds can be not recorded, because it to fast blinking. If camera have fast response time, then it only can shot corectly picture, i Think.
https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--mVR-3336--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/1521653004071786529.jpg

Offline seaad

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Re: 170 watts in - 1600 watts out - looped - Very impressive build and video
« Reply #489 on: April 03, 2018, 12:02:11 AM »
About 7-8 leds... I think camera filming in 25 or 30 FPS, so some leds can be not recorded, because it to fast blinking. If camera have fast response time, then it only can shot corectly picture, i Think.
https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--mVR-3336--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/1521653004071786529.jpg

For sure MenofFather the camera can fool us so we can not just trust all of what we see. But one thing is always correct that's the sound which conveys the slow repetition frequency.

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Re: 170 watts in - 1600 watts out - looped - Very impressive build and video
« Reply #489 on: April 03, 2018, 12:02:11 AM »
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Offline seaad

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Re: 170 watts in - 1600 watts out - looped - Very impressive build and video
« Reply #490 on: April 12, 2018, 04:27:48 AM »
Suggestions to different step pattern to achieve the magnetic locomotion/ rotation.
1 = Now    2a, 2b = New

Offline partzman

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Re: 170 watts in - 1600 watts out - looped - Very impressive build and video
« Reply #491 on: April 14, 2018, 05:16:16 PM »
Suggestions to different step pattern to achieve the magnetic locomotion/ rotation.
1 = Now    2a, 2b = New

Seaad,

IMO, not enough thought has been given to the overall requirements for an efficient rotating electromagnetic field.  For example, take a 5mH coil with .1 ohm dcr we wish to make into an electromagnet at a current level of 1 amp.  To initially charge this coil from say a 10 vdc supply will require a duration of 500us (neglecting any dcr loss) which will consume 2.5mJ of energy.  Now, to maintain 1 amp in this coil for our electromagnet will require a dc voltage of 0.1v which over the same 500us period will consume only 50uJ or 1/50th the charge energy.

This is why Pierre uses a form of switching overlap in an attempt to maintain a constant but moving electromagnetic field.  However, several things to note here-  1) If the mmf or H field or inductor current is maintained at relatively constant level, then little is available for recovery to the power supply.  2) Overlap is not necessary if one considers the action of the collapsing electromagnetic field even in the N_S_N_S_etc configuration.  3) No consideration is being given to the coupling or K factor of the coil arrangement in the above conditions IOW, leakage inductance is ignored.

Also, in Pierre's 1st generator the stationary rotor is driven or induced from the stator's flux fields.  In his 2nd generator design, the rotor will be induced by the H field produced by bucking fields in the stator windings or he will have little or no output.

Regards,
Pm   

Offline T-1000

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Re: 170 watts in - 1600 watts out - looped - Very impressive build and video
« Reply #492 on: April 14, 2018, 05:36:00 PM »
Seaad,

IMO, not enough thought has been given to the overall requirements for an efficient rotating electromagnetic field.

True, most people just gone and made standard way 3 phase overlapping coils which will result in bucking mode on Pierre's way of driving.
Also after looking more carefully around Pierre's stator winding directions there are 31 coils with wire going CW and 5 coils coing CCW. Why is that no one know but the output coil core is still attached to 5 CW coils. Which allow to amplify magnetic field when turning on two coils in paralel.

Cheers!

Offline seaad

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Re: 170 watts in - 1600 watts out - looped - Very impressive build and video
« Reply #493 on: April 14, 2018, 10:08:29 PM »
Seaad,

IMO, not enough thought has been given to the overall requirements for an efficient rotating electromagnetic field. (Math.)

This is why Pierre uses a form of switching overlap in an attempt to maintain a constant but moving electromagnetic field.  However, several things to note here-  1) If the mmf or H field or inductor current is maintained at relatively constant level, then little is available for recovery to the power supply.  2) Overlap is not necessary if one considers the action of the collapsing electromagnetic field even in the N_S_N_S_etc configuration.  3) No consideration is being given to the coupling or K factor of the coil arrangement in the above conditions IOW, leakage inductance is ignored.

Also, in Pierre's 1st generator the stationary rotor is driven or induced from the stator's flux fields.  In his 2nd generator design, the rotor will be induced by the H field produced by bucking fields in the stator windings or he will have little or no output.
Pm   

Hi partzman
Thx for your math example. Your skills there are way above mine. I'm more of a try and error guy ( to lazy, or bad memory for math) and I let the nature tell me. Hope we , I can use that skill. ;)
I understand though your point. It's like accelerating a car and burn fuel.

"" IMO, not enough thought has been given to the overall requirements for an efficient rotating electromagnetic field. ""

Agree! We have to make fundamental experiments about the principles first instead of building complex contraption in the kW-class. See my small experiments in the beginning of this thread.

"" This is why Pierre uses a form of switching overlap in an attempt to maintain a constant but moving electromagnetic field. ""
So did Clemente Figuera also, " always in contact with two collector bars" IMO this Pierre thing is, acts as a Figuera Machine!
But I'm still having heavy doubts about IF THIS PIERRE THING REALLY WORKS!  To slow repetition rate to feed a M.W. Oven!

"" 1) If the mmf or H field or inductor current is maintained at relatively constant level, then little is available for recovery to the power supply. ""
Se my pic. Yes, the coils between the fed, Switched coils have a short time of DC-rest (steady).

But how can we collect and forward the short cutted coils power??



"" 2) Overlap is not necessary if one considers the action of the collapsing electromagnetic field even in the N_S_N_S_etc configuration. ""
Overlap of what. Pulses , coils??    See my post http://overunity.com/17609/170-watts-in-1600-watts-out-looped-very-impressive-build-and-video/msg518124/#msg518124

But if some energy goes, transfers to the fix output "rotor" coil(s) from any of L1 to L5 in my example less power of course is looped back to the source.
In Pierre's case we don't have collapsing fields only shorted fields.   The principle of an OU unit is that the primaries should never "see, know" that the secondary steals power from them!

"" 3) No consideration is being given to the coupling or K factor of the coil arrangement in the above conditions IOW, leakage inductance is ignored. ""
Agree! As I call it "transformer effect" See efficiency in my two pics with the same function but different coil arrangement.I Have tried different K-values in my simulations, but it's impossible there to simulate a Genny-Stator.

Regards Arne






Offline partzman

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Re: 170 watts in - 1600 watts out - looped - Very impressive build and video
« Reply #494 on: April 14, 2018, 11:34:20 PM »
Hi partzman
Thx for your math example. Your skills there are way above mine. I'm more of a try and error guy ( to lazy, or bad memory for math) and I let the nature tell me. Hope we , I can use that skill. ;)
I understand though your point. It's like accelerating a car and burn fuel.

"" IMO, not enough thought has been given to the overall requirements for an efficient rotating electromagnetic field. ""

Agree! We have to make fundamental experiments about the principles first instead of building complex contraption in the kW-class. See my small experiments in the beginning of this thread.

"" This is why Pierre uses a form of switching overlap in an attempt to maintain a constant but moving electromagnetic field. ""
So did Clemente Figuera also, " always in contact with two collector bars" IMO this Pierre thing is, acts as a Figuera Machine!
But I'm still having heavy doubts about IF THIS PIERRE THING REALLY WORKS!  To slow repetition rate to feed a M.W. Oven!

I have my doubts as well in this regard and for the following reason.  The transformer used in the typical microwave oven for economics sake is designed to operate near maximum flux density of ~1.5T at 50 or 60 Hz depending on location.  If this transformer is run from say a frequency 20% lower than the specified operating frequency, the laminated iron core will saturate and draw a considerably larger current than normal.  If operated at a frequency of 10-20 Hz, the saturation current would be limited only by the dc resistance of the primary and would be huge!  This raises a huge red flag for me and IMO has not been addressed by anyone satisfactorily.  However, for the time being I will give Pierre the benefit of the doubt until evidence points otherwise.

Quote

"" 1) If the mmf or H field or inductor current is maintained at relatively constant level, then little is available for recovery to the power supply. ""
Se my pic. Yes, the coils between the fed, Switched coils have a short time of DC-rest (steady).

But how can we collect and forward the short cutted coils power??

I don't have an answer for you on this at the moment due to what I believe is a far more complex operation than what is apparent.  Pierre says recovery to the cap bank is important and also says that maintaining the field strength is important but I fail to see how both can be accomplished together.  However, there will be a parametric change (increase in inductance) in the coils that are closest to the rotor and if this occurs when the electromagnetic field is held constant, this can provide a gain mechanism based on my previous bench tests so this may provide a means for recovery to the supply.

Also, the coil combinations that are operating in the buck mode may produce an H field in the direction of the rotor which would reinforce the available output energy.  If true however, this would be reflected via Lenz to the stator windings so no gain would be realized.

Quote
"" 2) Overlap is not necessary if one considers the action of the collapsing electromagnetic field even in the N_S_N_S_etc configuration. ""
Overlap of what. Pulses , coils??    See my post http://overunity.com/17609/170-watts-in-1600-watts-out-looped-very-impressive-build-and-video/msg518124/#msg518124

The coils would all be in series but the pulses driving the coils would not need to be overlapped if recovery diodes are connected from coils to the supply rails.  Certain overlap timing can be used with some recovery current seen at the supply and I have a partial simulation which proves this point.  I'm trying to do a complete 30 slot sim with rotor load but the task is huge due to the coil coupling factors which if incorrect, prevent the simulation from converging or completing.  If overlap can't be prevented in the switching circuitry, it should be at a minimum to provide maximum flux transfer to the rotor.

Quote
But if some energy goes, transfers to the fix output "rotor" coil(s) from any of L1 to L5 in my example less power of course is looped back to the source.
In Pierre's case we don't have collapsing fields only shorted fields.   The principle of an OU unit is that the primaries should never "see, know" that the secondary steals power from them!

"" 3) No consideration is being given to the coupling or K factor of the coil arrangement in the above conditions IOW, leakage inductance is ignored. ""
Agree! As I call it "transformer effect" See efficiency in my two pics with the same function but different coil arrangement.I Have tried different K-values in my simulations, but it's impossible there to simulate a Genny-Stator.

Ah yes, so you know exactly what I'm talking about regarding the couplings.  There is a way to simulate any electromagnetic topology in LtSpice and that is to model the core and windings with gyrators and capacitors using behavioral sources but the degree of difficulty for this type of device would be so complex that it would be easier to just build it!

Regards,
Pm

Quote

Regards Arne

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Re: 170 watts in - 1600 watts out - looped - Very impressive build and video
« Reply #494 on: April 14, 2018, 11:34:20 PM »

 

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