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Author Topic: Can we demonstrate over unity energy?  (Read 1890 times)

Offline D.R.Jackson

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Can we demonstrate over unity energy?
« on: February 11, 2018, 06:20:46 PM »
Can we demonstrate over unity energy?  I ask this because of some circuit experiments I did years ago I have in the half baked section of topics here at this site.  Using those same circuits in a demonstration I now have I can say that when using resonant circuits you can demonstrate over unity energy, but the problem then becomes one of whether you can tap into that energy and use it without losses. So lets look at those circuit ideas again and see what we can do, if anything.

One thing we have to be careful about is allowing the definition of things as they are being defined by many enthusiast in the Tesla Tech genre of interest to influence our interpretation of things, we can easily forget that the instantaneous power of a waveform may be higher than the input power waveform but its period will be less in terms of total period of power over the wave cycle resulting in the average power of the output power wave cycle being less than the input cycle, so instantaneous peak power will not be the same as the input power of a sine wave source of energy.  In fact it will be less, and it is upon this criteria that we will make or break whether or not over unity energy can be produced from any sort of magnetic circuit using AC power input.  I have made this mistake before and it is easy to forget, as we take into account the definition of things we find here on the internet, such as that of there being latent energy or natural energy in resonant magnetic circuits that lends to the equation.  We can somewhat believe that this definition is true as you will see in the following.




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Offline D.R.Jackson

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Re: Can we demonstrate over unity energy?
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2018, 06:26:40 PM »
In this circuit we seem to have a scenario where in comparing sinewave input power to output power across capacitor C1 is over unity.  Furthermore at the moment we are not computing input power from the circuitry that drives the 1 kHz base of the transistor which adds to the sum of input power, you see unless we can come up with a low power input source of use, such as a solar cell to power the oscillator circuit that drives the base of Q1 we can not say we have over unity energy, but with respect to the main power source in the current scenario we do see that this circuit and amplify the output energy.  The question here is whether or not we can take the energy out of the circuit and make use of it?

Offline D.R.Jackson

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Re: Can we demonstrate over unity energy?
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2018, 06:39:50 PM »
Now the question of instantaneous peak power versus input power comes into play as we attempt to take power out of this circuit.  In this circuit (below) we have added a transformer made of primary L3 and secondary L4 to make use of the power in R1, where it appears that the output power looks to be a little over unity since in comparing the period and peak of the output power of R1 to the input power, we have a strong contender for demonstrating over unity power with reference to the input power source alone.  Now unless our oscillator source for our sinewave input to the base of Q1 can be in the microwatt range we will destroy our scenario when we add that power to the sum of power input into this circuit.

Now another thing occurs here and it is whether or not our eyes see things right or whether or not the two power wave trains will average out to reveal that the output average power is equal to or less than the input?  This is the problem I have with this circuit.  What is the actual case of things here?  Furthermore it makes me wonder if we will ever be able to make use of such things?  We have losses we realize the moment we attempt to take power off this circuit.  If there were perhaps some sort of transformer out there we could use in this circuit to make it perform even better that would be the thing.

In this circuit I have attempted to resolve the instantaneous peak power versus input power problem the best I can.

Offline D.R.Jackson

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Re: Can we demonstrate over unity energy?
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2018, 06:41:19 PM »
The circuit for the previous comment.

Offline D.R.Jackson

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Re: Can we demonstrate over unity energy?
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2018, 06:52:23 PM »
In doing the input power calculations for this circuit I have had to add a minus sign to invert the power above the zero axis to compare with the output power, other wise it is below the axis and hard to compare as when laid on top so I use -V(n005)*I(V2) to make the power positive on the graph.  The waveform and peak power is all the same just a mirror image of it in the positive half of the graph.

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Re: Can we demonstrate over unity energy?
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2018, 06:52:23 PM »
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Offline D.R.Jackson

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Re: Can we demonstrate over unity energy?
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2018, 12:05:59 AM »
Ok this is what I have so far to answer this question:

Here is another demonstration of how to further things (see circuit diagram and simulation bellow), and try to answer some of my own questions.  In this version of my circuit I have decided I need somewhere for my AC current through L1 to go besides the power supply, where it creates an undesired current through the 12V battery (I decided to increase this voltage instead of using the 10V DC I used earlier) where C5 is added to provide this idea.  Furthermore D1 is used to block any AC from going into the power supply.

The result of this is the plot seen in the red for the power of V1 written as an equation in the software analysis as -V(v1_in)*I(V1) which is V*I and the minus sign merely inverts it into the positive plane of the graph.  The output power for R1 then is the green waveform
using the equation V(v_out)*I(R1) which is V*IR1.  And finally the power running through the transistor is the blue waveform which is V(q1c)*Ic(Q1).

What I did here is sort of intuitive, having had this same idea in the past but the wrong circuit concept to use it with, and fortunately in this circuit it has worked for me, now I have a demonstration that defies even my own expectations.  Here I have given circulation AC currents another path to follow instead of the power supply where it would only take power away from the over unity scenario.

Now the thing with this circuit is that everything is relative to the type of transistor I am using in the model, and hence its performance and so collector impedance, which means that everything in the circuit would have to be mathematically changed to use another transistor in the circuit, and so this is what electrical engineers are for, to backwards engineer things and re-engineer them with circuit design equations, so I will have to tackle some of that myself.

In review of this transistor I see that I am in no way exceeding its parameters which is good, and as can be seen the collector wattage is around 450 mW but as a small duration instantaneous peak (very small period) as compared to the period or duration of the 1 kHz wave cycle input to this circuit.  You can review a NPX data sheet version of this transistor using this link to an online PDF file: https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/data-sheet/2N5550_5551.pdf

Now I re-tackled my old circuits to see what I did wrong the first time around with the half baked idea, and to show why I was wrong by disproving my circuits. This only made me ask more question and conceive of experiments to use to cover all the basis of disproving everything. 

The the final thing we would have to do with this circuit is to provide a signal source to Q1 that is extremely low in power, in the microwatt range, or use feedback from the output of this circuit to create and oscillation loop to excite Q1 into oscillation and I have tried to tackle that somewhat recently but would have to spend more time on that. 

One thing I did not use much at all except in the output section was resonant circuits, instead I used high levels of inductance which explains using the 1 Henry winding's of the transformer on the collector of Q1 and the 0.25 Henry winding's on the output transformer.

I would say now, we might have something that some folk will want to explore and see how far they can take.  I will provide the LTSpice file for this model here for use if you want. 

Offline partzman

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Re: Can we demonstrate over unity energy?
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2018, 05:04:02 PM »
DR,

The excess energy your sim indicates is being supplied by the energy contained in C1.  If you check the initial condition of C1 prior to running the sim, it will indicate C1 has 10v dc applied.  If you plot this voltage over time, you will see that it decreases as C1 supplies energy to the circuit.  If you then calculate this energy loss, add it to you input energy consumed from V1 and then compare to the output energy across R1, you will find the COP<1.

Regards,
Pm

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Re: Can we demonstrate over unity energy?
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2018, 05:04:02 PM »
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Offline D.R.Jackson

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Re: Can we demonstrate over unity energy?
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2018, 08:18:16 PM »
DR,

The excess energy your sim indicates is being supplied by the energy contained in C1.  If you check the initial condition of C1 prior to running the sim, it will indicate C1 has 10v dc applied.  If you plot this voltage over time, you will see that it decreases as C1 supplies energy to the circuit.  If you then calculate this energy loss, add it to you input energy consumed from V1 and then compare to the output energy across R1, you will find the COP<1.

Regards,
Pm

Ok that was interesting and so I had to check that although the software uses AC analysis on this capacitor and shows that it starts off at 0V and charges up over time.  Furthermore the output of the circuit is AC and any DC in the capacitor would have nothing to do with the AC output through a transformer into R1.  Here is the analysis of C1 note I am using an updated model I have been working on where the capacitors are renamed in a logical order so C1 is now C2 and this is the charge up plot of the circuit.

At the moment that this capacitor fully charges about 6.4 seconds into the simulation a 7.6 Hz oscillation begins that places a charge on C1 in this circuit (connected to D1 and L1) that increases the charge on C1 to 22V and then the requirement for power from V1 is diminished down to 380 micro-watt, since the circuit now has 22V DC as the power input, that is in the simulation I have for download here:

http://overunity.com/17603/a-half-baked-idea-re-envisioned/

Offline partzman

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Re: Can we demonstrate over unity energy?
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2018, 09:48:08 PM »
Ok that was interesting and so I had to check that although the software uses AC analysis on this capacitor and shows that it starts off at 0V and charges up over time.  Furthermore the output of the circuit is AC and any DC in the capacitor would have nothing to do with the AC output through a transformer into R1.  Here is the analysis of C1 note I am using an updated model I have been working on where the capacitors are renamed in a logical order so C1 is now C2 and this is the charge up plot of the circuit.

At the moment that this capacitor fully charges about 6.4 seconds into the simulation a 7.6 Hz oscillation begins that places a charge on C1 in this circuit (connected to D1 and L1) that increases the charge on C1 to 22V and then the requirement for power from V1 is diminished down to 380 micro-watt, since the circuit now has 22V DC as the power input, that is in the simulation I have for download here:

http://overunity.com/17603/a-half-baked-idea-re-envisioned/

DR,

All your previous sims on this thread prior to my post #6 were run in the transient mode not AC.  The difference being that initial dc conditions are taken into account prior to simulation in the transient mode but not taken into account in the ac mode.  In regards to your apparent OU it really doesn't matter as energy is still required to charge C1 and must be taken into account.

For example I've attached two sims of your circuit with both taken in the transient mode.  BTW, let me explain that V3 is a zero voltage source which is used as a lossless current sensor.

In the first pix, C1 has an initial voltage of 10v dc due to being coupled to V1 thru L1,L2, and L3.  The plot cursor for V(vc1) shows that C1 has dropped to 9.9997311v at the end of the simulation which equates to a loss of (10^2 - 9.9997311^2) *1 *.5 = 2.689mJ.  The plot math shows an input energy consumed of 3.024mJ and an output energy of 5.397mJ.  Therefore the COP = 5.397/(2.689 +  3.024) = .944 .

The second pix has an initial condition command which set the starting voltage across C1 and the starting current thru L1 to zero which now allows the circuit to start with zero dc voltage or current conditions which would be equivalent to the start in an AC mode simulation.  C2 is disconnected to clean up the plot as it has no effect on these energy measurements.  Now we can see C1 or V(vc1) starting to charge from V1 and we see an ending voltage of ~4.362v which equates to an energy level of ~9.51J.  The plot math shows an input consumption of 43.75J with the output energy produced being only 77.51mJ. 

As I previously stated, you must account for the energy in C1 to arrive at an accurate conclusion as to whether the device is OU or not.

Regards,
Pm


Offline D.R.Jackson

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Re: Can we demonstrate over unity energy?
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2018, 12:27:01 AM »
DR,

All your previous sims on this thread prior to my post #6 were run in the transient mode not AC.  The difference being that initial dc conditions are taken into account prior to simulation in the transient mode but not taken into account in the ac mode.  In regards to your apparent OU it really doesn't matter as energy is still required to charge C1 and must be taken into account.

For example I've attached two sims of your circuit with both taken in the transient mode.  BTW, let me explain that V3 is a zero voltage source which is used as a lossless current sensor.

In the first pix, C1 has an initial voltage of 10v dc due to being coupled to V1 thru L1,L2, and L3.  The plot cursor for V(vc1) shows that C1 has dropped to 9.9997311v at the end of the simulation which equates to a loss of (10^2 - 9.9997311^2) *1 *.5 = 2.689mJ.  The plot math shows an input energy consumed of 3.024mJ and an output energy of 5.397mJ.  Therefore the COP = 5.397/(2.689 +  3.024) = .944 .

The second pix has an initial condition command which set the starting voltage across C1 and the starting current thru L1 to zero which now allows the circuit to start with zero dc voltage or current conditions which would be equivalent to the start in an AC mode simulation.  C2 is disconnected to clean up the plot as it has no effect on these energy measurements.  Now we can see C1 or V(vc1) starting to charge from V1 and we see an ending voltage of ~4.362v which equates to an energy level of ~9.51J.  The plot math shows an input consumption of 43.75J with the output energy produced being only 77.51mJ. 

As I previously stated, you must account for the energy in C1 to arrive at an accurate conclusion as to whether the device is OU or not.

Regards,
Pm

I like the simulation but its still not the same circuit, you need to add D1 and C1 as I have it in the last circuit diagram I post before yours here, I would like to see that simulation and have a copy to run if that is ok.  But this information so far is helpful, please not that D1 and C1 in the last circuit model are a part of what I have been doing with this circuit.

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Re: Can we demonstrate over unity energy?
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2018, 12:27:01 AM »
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Offline partzman

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Re: Can we demonstrate over unity energy?
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2018, 02:42:23 AM »
I like the simulation but its still not the same circuit, you need to add D1 and C1 as I have it in the last circuit diagram I post before yours here, I would like to see that simulation and have a copy to run if that is ok.  But this information so far is helpful, please not that D1 and C1 in the last circuit model are a part of what I have been doing with this circuit.

OK, here is your latest circuit with several changes to the sim.  R2 was added to help the sim converge thus speeding it up plus, I removed the "skip initial operating point" (uic) in the simulation command as it produced a large current transient at startup due to the charging of C5 from V1 which then reduced the plot viewing amplitude of any subsequent current traces.  I have also added the initial command statement (.ic) however so C1 starts with no charge.  Also, V(tp1) is offset 10v to separate it from V(vc1) for ease of viewing.  These changes in no way affect the overall energy measurements of the simulation.

The sim plot has both cursors on V(vc1) which indicates the voltage change on C1.  Cursor1 is placed at the point when the voltage on C1 is at it's peak and cursor2 is placed at the end of the sim.  The energy lost In C1 between these cursors is (22.712025^2-21.424129^2) *1 * .5 = 28.42J.

The plot math shows the input energy over the 60s period to be 273.5J and the output energy produced in R1 is 27.955J.  So, the COP = 27.995/(28.42+273.5) = .093.

For observation, the large amount of energy consumed from start to 6.46s is mostly to charge C1.  From that point on, C1 supplies nearly all the energy to the circuit and is depleted over time.  We have also neglected the energy to initially charge C5 to 12v which would amount to 7.2mJ.

I have attached the .asc file for you to play with.

Regards,
Pm

Offline D.R.Jackson

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Re: Can we demonstrate over unity energy?
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2018, 03:18:49 AM »
OK, here is your latest circuit with several changes to the sim.  R2 was added to help the sim converge thus speeding it up plus, I removed the "skip initial operating point" (uic) in the simulation command as it produced a large current transient at startup due to the charging of C5 from V1 which then reduced the plot viewing amplitude of any subsequent current traces.  I have also added the initial command statement (.ic) however so C1 starts with no charge.  Also, V(tp1) is offset 10v to separate it from V(vc1) for ease of viewing.  These changes in no way affect the overall energy measurements of the simulation.

The sim plot has both cursors on V(vc1) which indicates the voltage change on C1.  Cursor1 is placed at the point when the voltage on C1 is at it's peak and cursor2 is placed at the end of the sim.  The energy lost In C1 between these cursors is (22.712025^2-21.424129^2) *1 * .5 = 28.42J.

The plot math shows the input energy over the 60s period to be 273.5J and the output energy produced in R1 is 27.955J.  So, the COP = 27.995/(28.42+273.5) = .093.

For observation, the large amount of energy consumed from start to 6.46s is mostly to charge C1.  From that point on, C1 supplies nearly all the energy to the circuit and is depleted over time.  We have also neglected the energy to initially charge C5 to 12v which would amount to 7.2mJ.

I have attached the .asc file for you to play with.

Regards,
Pm

Ok I will look at the simulation and thank you I appreciate the file.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Can we demonstrate over unity energy?
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2018, 04:26:43 AM »
Quote from: pm
The plot math shows the input energy over the 60s period to be 273.5J and the output energy produced in R1 is 27.955J.  So, the COP = 27.995/(28.42+273.5) = .093.

Beautiful work as usual pm. 

Where does the excess input energy go, then? Is it dissipated in the internal resistances of components such as the transistor and R2? Can we be sure that these resistances aren't dissipating more than they "should"?

I haven't looked at the sim files myself so I don't know where all the power-dissipating components are.

Offline partzman

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Re: Can we demonstrate over unity energy?
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2018, 02:30:59 PM »
Beautiful work as usual pm. 

Where does the excess input energy go, then? Is it dissipated in the internal resistances of components such as the transistor and R2? Can we be sure that these resistances aren't dissipating more than they "should"?

I haven't looked at the sim files myself so I don't know where all the power-dissipating components are.

Thanks TK!  The energy is dissipated in the load, circuit switching losses, coil resistances, etc.  Actually DR's circuit is not as inefficient as it appears in the last sim.  If C1 is replaced with a 10ufd cap and the sim is then run until the circuit stabilizes, the COP is ~ .93 and this could be improved upon with mosfet switching and some timing.  Unfortunately it is still conservative.

Regards,
Pm

Offline partzman

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Re: Can we demonstrate over unity energy?
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2018, 02:38:06 PM »
Ok I will look at the simulation and thank you I appreciate the file.

You're welcome.  As I pointed out above, your circuit is not as inefficient as it might appear in my last sim.  If the sim was allowed to run long enough to consume the energy in C1 that you've already paid for, the efficiency would show a marked improvement. Try changing C1 to 10ufd plus you could also measure the "on" time of the 2N5550 to determine the pulse width required to drive a mosfet.  These changes should increase your present efficiency.

Regards,
Pm

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Re: Can we demonstrate over unity energy?
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2018, 02:38:06 PM »

 

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