Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Gravity powered devices => Gravity powered devices => Topic started by: woopy on January 16, 2018, 10:39:01 PM

Title: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on January 16, 2018, 10:39:01 PM
Hi all

 I come back to this old topic, because i stumbled upon a very interesting patent from M. Harvey Fiala.

Of course i could not prevent me to replicate one of the simpliest device of the patent

https://youtu.be/AGKXnp1twUk

If some of you are interested for a discussion

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 17, 2018, 03:49:22 AM
Excellent work!!


Precession to linear force transfer
This will work as a space engine
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: TinselKoala on January 17, 2018, 05:48:52 AM
Excellent work!!


Precession to linear force transfer
This will work as a space engine

No, it won't. I do agree that Woopy has done excellent work with his build replication, as always, but his testing is flawed. Woopy's device is moving due to stick-slip friction and is pushing against the substrate. This can be demonstrated in the following way:

Get a sheet of plate glass. (Plate glass, in contrast to ordinary window glass, is uniformly smooth and dimensionally stable.) Put down some uniform spheres, like good marbles or ball-bearing balls, onto the black rangetop surface, and insure that the surface is precisely level. Put the plate glass down onto the balls, so that it is free to move in whatever direction it wants to move. Then put the apparatus under test onto the plate glass and turn it on. You will observe that the apparatus moves in one direction and the glass plate moves in the opposite direction, proving that the apparatus is _pushing_ on the substrate in order to move. It won't go anywhere in free space.

You can see even in Woopy's demo that the thing hardly moves, and even when it does move it takes one smaller step back for every larger step forward. The larger forward steps happen due to the slight misalignment of the ball-bearing "feet" of the apparatus, which then results in the stick-slip friction coupling the apparatus weight-shifts to the substrate. Newton rests peacefully in his grave.

These things have been tested properly many times before in very sophisticated laboratories. Even air tables or linear air tracks can be fooled by uneven, moving weight distributions which cause differential thrusts from the air blast suspension itself.

Now... as to precession.... ask Chet about me and precession.  Laithwaite was wrong, as he finally admitted before he died.
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: Magluvin on January 17, 2018, 07:59:15 AM
Back in middle school we had a guy come in to do demos of gyros. He sat on a bar stool that spins holding a spinning wheel that had handles on each side of he shaft and held it out in front of him. When he tilted it, it turned him around on the stool one way, and tilted it the other way it reversed his spin.

As for Smokys vision, say we have 4 of the gyros on a platform with each at the 4 corners. Now we use synchronized servos to tilt all 4 gyros say inward or outward simultaneously. Would it provide lift?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldqUV-DXiUg

Mags
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: ramset on January 17, 2018, 10:13:46 AM
Yes
a wonderful build and demonstration , yes the marbles or ball bearings or ?

apparently the wheels need to be "perfectly" aligned or this "sticktion" assists in movement [and confuses ]
even floating on water or on air tables has issues .[All mentioned already]

HOWEVER

antigravity tickles "everyone's " mind reading here ,

Gyro's and antigravity "effects".....

that itch you just can't  scratch .

I suspect there will be a lot more scratching here....or attempts at antigravity effects.



Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on January 17, 2018, 03:37:15 PM
I all

Thank's for compliments on my replication. But it should certainly be redone and more precisely, because this thing deserves a high craftmanship.

to TK

Yes i aggree that a test on the marbles should be done, but as me, you know that, to be convincing (good or bad) in this case, the DUT should be a (at minima) twin system running perfectly in opposition and also in perfect synchronisation to avoid the latteral parasite mouvement due to the  spinning asymetric mass. And frankly i am not sure to be able to realise such a device. But perhaps somebody else could try.

As you have correctly noticed, the device make a slight mouvement backwards and almost double the mouvement forwards. M. Fiala explain this in the patent. But i understand that it is a long and boring time to read the 33 pages of description of the patent.

I am not a seller of space propulsion devices, i am simply fascinated by this device, which can surprisingly also coast slightly.

Just for fun, as you seem to know very well the subject, would you be so kind to explain in simple words, how the old M. Laithwaite manage to lift the big wheel, and seems to withstand the centrifugal force so easily as per this video.
 
https://youtu.be/JRPC7a_AcQo

And for info i did the big wheel experiment with a lighter cart wheel (about 4 kg) spun with a grinder, and i have really the impression that it goes from itself around my head. But perhaps it is only impression, but what a great impression. Perhaps i have an addiction to be fooled.

Thank's

To Chet

I have not quite undestood what TK wanted to speak about precession. Can you eventually explain his words

Thank's

Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: ramset on January 17, 2018, 05:46:09 PM
Woopy
Honestly?
I'm confused

when I take the big 1hp hand held grinder  with the 14 inch diamond blade [for cutting concrete]
and run the blade up to 2-3000 RPM and move WITH precession,  I can relax certain muscles ...it feels lighter ,

and that is not a heavy blade [the saw is very heavy tho]

I did this "with precession movement" all the time in demolition business with similar very heavy gas-powered unit with Big wood cutting 12 - 14 inch carbide blades
it was a method to Move and not have to carry the full weight of the saw when working on ladders and repositioning
for another cut.[sort of cheating]

rev the saw and move with precession
----------------------------------------------------

if you put a scale under me on the ladder or Mag's barstool when the teacher spins ..or if you stand on a scale when "you" spin

no weight loss....try it.

but ...why did I use this "with precession movement " to rest my muscles when working up on the ladder [to move the very heavy saw to another Cut ??

makes no sense ....

and just Like you {and Tinsel too } it hurts the head....

and all agree it needs more looking and measuring and ...

?

perhaps a better method to measure this localized apparent weightless which cannot be seen on a scale ??

IMO there is something there which all here  agree... needs more investigation.

Confused but grateful [for you and your work]

Chet






Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: Paul-R on January 17, 2018, 06:02:24 PM
For me, the interesting variant was a square piece of heavy ply with four electric motors at the edge of each side with shafts facing out.

Each motor had a heavy flywheel, and they rotated in the same direction, facing north, south east and west. When started up, the platform became heavier or lighter.

If heavier, it would be turned upside down, so that on rotating, the device should generate more lift than its weight, i.e. float. But I cannot find either the photographs or description.

This isn't the page but close. Look down the page to the image of the blue base, green motor/flywheels and  red arrows pointing upwards.
https://www.intalek.com/Index/Projects/SmartSPIN_X2/SmartSPIN_X2.htm
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on January 17, 2018, 06:51:21 PM
I Chet

very informative the fact that your big grinder seems lighter in precession. And that you use this caractéristic to relax your muscles.

I found this video, where"veritasium" replicate the Laithwaite experiment standing on a scale, which shows no weight loss.
Then it tries some explanations but i am not convinced at all.
At 2.50 he try to turn backwards with the big wheel spinning and he can simply not lift the wheel to face the caméra.
Perhaps he should have done this also on the scale to see if there is a weight gain when you go counter precession ?
https://youtu.be/tLMpdBjA2SU

Hi Paul R
Thank's for input

laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: centraflow on January 17, 2018, 07:49:17 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLMpdBjA2SU


Better video


Regards


Mike 8)
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: TinselKoala on January 18, 2018, 06:21:39 AM
The "weight loss" phenomenon is a special case of forced precession.  There is no weight loss, as any number of scale experiments have proved.

As a Chinese fortune cookie once told me: "Every action has a counter action. Just if you can see it or not."

For your amusement:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a81hS_iCi4E





Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: MagnaProp on January 18, 2018, 08:28:31 AM
Very good replication woopy. You mention Laithwaite who also has a patent for a gyroscopic propulsion device. He mentions at the end of his "Heretic" video that he mathematically proved that his gyroscopic propulsion device does actually works. Unfortunately the video ends with him moving a piece of a toy mock up but doesn't show the actual device working in full.

Do you think it actually works as he claimed?

https://www.google.com/patents/US5860317
 (https://www.google.com/patents/US5860317)
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on January 18, 2018, 09:56:22 AM
The "weight loss" phenomenon is a special case of forced precession.  There is no weight loss, as any number of scale experiments have proved.

As a Chinese fortune cookie once told me: "Every action has a counter action. Just if you can see it or not."

For your amusement:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a81hS_iCi4E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a81hS_iCi4E)

Hi TK

Many thank's for the chinese words. It is excatly that.

In spinning mass, as a gyro, We CAN NOT SEE WHERE the action is taking place.

So the dear Isaac can RIP.

And it is the aim of this thread , to attempt to understand WHERE and how action and reaction are taking place . So no offence to established "laws" but open minding our brain.

We are often attracted by antigravity with gyro, but as i see at 2.50 of the video that me and Centralflow joined above, it would be very informative to redo the  Laithwaite big wheel experiment on the scale but forcing the wheel counter the natural precession, to see if the scale also does not show a WEIGHT INCREASE.

And at 2.50,  it seems almost impossible to "Veratisium" to lift the wheel in counter natural precession, even when trying to use his knees as a lever, and if in this special case, the scale does not show any weight increase, i think that the location of action and reaction is not at the right place we think that  should be. And if the scale does effectively show an increase in weight then ????....

As i doubt very much that "Veratisium" will show a test with the big wheel in counter rotation , i think i will try to do it myself. Or perehaps Chet could take one of his big saw and jump on a scale and rotate the saw in both directions ?

Could it be a mass transfer, as Laithwaite and many other as spoken about ?

Also thank's for the very intersting video, have you made it youself as i can ear your voice at the end ?


@MagnaProp

Without replicating i can not say anything.

But interestingly, Laithwaite understood that if the device has to work as a space propellant, it has to be not only a twin system but a double twin to direct the motorising effect in one direction.
So not easy at all to replicate without very high grade craftmanship.

Laurent



Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: ramset on January 18, 2018, 01:46:15 PM
Laurent
I think we need a self powered Flywheel,  A small one [or two / four as  mentioned] and one  of significant size or mass [maybe like one of Mags electric powered bike wheels ?]
and then play with the scale ...
you see in Tinsel's precession Cha-os Build he put speed control in there and patterns show up..

IMO a self sustained speed controlled wheel is needed here .

I will see if I can find one of these electric Bike wheels ,even changing out the air with fluid/sand/?  [maybe ferro fluid too for playing with magnets later?? ??

and then trying longer length support poles.[maybe up to 10 feet or longer ??

I do believe I have seen Videos of small children "doing the laithwaite" picking up a weight which they would Never be able to lift [close to their own  weight]
Precession....

hurts the mind [a good thing I think

Laurent,
as always ......  you inspire !

with gratitude

Chet


Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: Paul-R on January 18, 2018, 02:22:05 PM
The "weight loss" phenomenon is a special case of forced precession.  There is no weight loss ...
But surely, there is no loss of mass but there is a loss of weight. i.e. one could make a helicopter out of the idea.
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 18, 2018, 03:00:49 PM
This kind of ties into a recent post I made in the skinner thread...


“Weight” is a function of gravity.


Precession force is a completely different force. It will not change your “weight”
Just as two repelling magnets do not change “weight”
gravity is still providing all of its force


we can trick ourselves by placing the scales in certain places
like under the lower magnet it will tell you the lower magnet gets heavier
(not really, we are just adding gravitational force to magnetic force in the down vector)


precession force does the same sort of adding and subtracting with the gravitational force.
the actual “weight” doesn’t change.

Weight is tied to density, force is tied to mass.
density is also tied to mass, but by a different function.
By this, density of the mass is also tied to the density of the force. (torque)


In the simplistic mechanical view, only one vector is considered at a time.
when in fact, 360-degrees of vector are present in all 3 dimensions
So these calculations should be considered in all 46,656,000 vectors.


Anything less than NASA’s shuttle pilot trainer, is just playing in the sand with spinny objects.






Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 18, 2018, 03:33:28 PM
NASA’s chair only provides for a little over a 2 million vectoral control.
But because they allow it to transition across 8x 90-degree orientations
The user has roughly 50% of all vectors in his hands, at ~2.4degree intervals.


This is the closest thing we have in terms of experiencing all 3 forces simultaneously


A 2-dimensional gyroscopic precession exerts forces on the axi that go unobserved.
We see the vertical transition and the angular transition of only one horizontal dimension
at a time.
There are forces perpendicular to both of these that are not observed in a simplistic analysis.


When you pilot the chair, you can feel these forces, and have to compensate for them.
only when you provide the exact proportional and opposite force with your hands,
can you bring the chair under control.
This is done using coils and variable resistors on a joystick.


in short: we should be performing experiments with gyroscopes in 3 gimbles
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: Paul-R on January 18, 2018, 05:20:49 PM
Look down the page to the image of the blue base, green motor/flywheels and  red arrows pointing upwards.
https://www.intalek.com/Index/Projects/SmartSPIN_X2/SmartSPIN_X2.htm (https://www.intalek.com/Index/Projects/SmartSPIN_X2/SmartSPIN_X2.htm)
I forgot to say: the blue base needs to rotate in its plane, of course.

Are people doubting that if this device were to be built, placed on scales and weighed, then the reading when the four gyroscopes and blue base are spun up would change?
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on January 18, 2018, 06:00:52 PM
Hi Chet

Yes i am thinking to dismantle my old electric bike to get out the rear wheel with the motor.
But there is perhaps  a better way to check the big wheel effect i will make some thinking these next days.

For info here the video of Laithwaite lecture and at 39.25 it is the experiment of the big wheel in the hands of a young guy, very impressive to see the guy lifting the heavy wheel seamingly without effort, because laithwaite controls the speed of rotation of the turning table, and so the rate of precession.

https://youtu.be/OpCEJxO6V9g

Thank's Smoky for input, but i need to reread your text , not very intuitive all this

Hi Paul R

I have a probléme with the link you mention, because the 4 gyros inside the rotating container seem to be fixed on the bottom. So they can not precess.
I have made some experiments with fixed gyros , and to me when they are fixed and can not precess at all, i feel no forces of any kind, the spinning gyro seems to be a dead mass. You can perhaps refer to  the experiment of Sandy Kidd which need the spring for precessing in order to exhibit some results.
As the spinning container seems to woble perhaps this wobling introduces some precession and eventually some effect on the scale ?? I have also noticed that the precession effect appears as soon as there is the slightest movement of the gyro axle. Extremely sensitiv this thing.

In my video (in my first post ), the device tries to stop the gyro precession on half a turn , so the gyro should be a dead mass with full inertia and centrifugal force, and free the complete precession on the other 180 degres so the gyro exhibit the full precession effect. So there is an asymetry (see Fiala's patent everything is explain)

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 18, 2018, 07:08:44 PM
Woopy


When a gyro is fixed (in any of the 3 dimensions)
The forces are constrained to the axis
Much like a shaft of a pendulum.
But we see in the pendulum, adding a fulcrum to allow
the forces to translate, we gain an additional dimension of
motion.


we cannot observe this force in a fixed pendulum.
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on January 19, 2018, 04:41:28 PM
Hi all

I found some steel balls and a light flat structured cardboard plate.

So i  looked for a flat and smooth enough surface in my house to make some first crude "marble" test.

As expected there is dynamic torsions and drift because the device is not a twin device working dynamically against each other but allowing the main forward movement.

So i made a short video, where you can see that there is always a main forward direction of movement.

I also made a test on a not perfectly leveled surface (the steel balls roll down the very very gentle slope ) and to my great surprise, the device could coast.

Something interesting is that the drift movement tends to deregulate the device, and i had to increase slightly the diameter of the traction wheel to get the device working correctly on the marbles.

Then with the same traction wheel, i reinstalled the ballbearing wheels and redo a test by rolling (no more marbles) , and in this case the systems spins too fast and the traction wheel touch the ring track all along so there is no more gyroscopic precession on any  location around the 360 degre ring and the device move back and forth without any directional displacement. To get back  the forward rolling movement, i have to decrease the diameter of the traction wheel or decrease the spinning speed of the gyro.

Very sensitiv device indeed, but so a lot of fun.

https://youtu.be/4BHK4MkwCQM

Of course these test are "crude" and not made on perfectly smooth lab surface and probably my steel balls are not perfectly round. But to me and so far, the movement stay there. So i encourage replicators to redo all those test before going to any conclusion. We are so often fooled by unattended artifact that we have to be very careful especially with such sensitiv topics.

Hope this helps

Laurent




Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: Paul-R on January 19, 2018, 04:52:17 PM
the 4 gyros inside the rotating container seem to be fixed on the bottom. So they can not precess.

Yes, they are bolted down. but remember that the base plate must be made to rotate (which is not that easy).
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: ramset on January 19, 2018, 05:31:59 PM
Laurent
\
  it moves with great speed !!
if you start it in the spot where it ended up [against the furniture]

and point the front drive  180 degrees towards the old starting point
will it travel the same line towards the old starting point [by the carpet?] [or is this the coasting you mention?
-----------------------------------------------

Paul R


This sounds very familiar , the 4 Gyro's were fixed vertically and NOT allowed to angle up in precession and as a result  were lifting the Plate they were attached to ... as the 4 gyro quad array was turned toward precession.

Yes !!

I do believe a had seen this Video too, along with weight scales and a claim.

gotta try that one !!

and as Laurent has mentioned this could be inverted to put weight on the scale too?

Chet
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 19, 2018, 09:44:57 PM
There are two perspectives, and both are correct in their own right.
In one, the force can only be on the entire assembly, and not on the inertial frame
of the gyro. This means that the force cannot be used to apply external motive force.
like two guys on a boat on a sliding platform, trying to push a wall to move the boat forward.


In the other perspective, the force represents itself along the axis in one or two of the perpendicular
dimensions, depending upon the applied force and the angle of the force to the angle of rotation.
This can manifest itself as a tangential-force vector.
applied to the axis.
If the axis itself is free to move in space, and precession interrupted appropriately, the result is
a linear momentum.


to truly direct this becomes tricky.
The gyro boat inventors used an additional motor to rotate the
platform the main axis was mounted to.
This allowed them to “steer” the linear force. (kind of)
what they learned indicated that the linear force has also a vectored component, from the rotational
momentum, and by steering it in their manner, did not give full control over direction.
but that it can be directed, if the variables are identified.
which we now know how to do,
If a modern-day attempt to construct the gyroboat were made, it would probably be quite an interesting
thing.

Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on January 20, 2018, 12:47:15 AM
Hi all

As TK made a very interesting comment on my video

i did  make his proposition

and so i reinstall the ballbearing wheels on the device and  place the whole system on the cardboard ( which as been replaced by a stiff and very smooth aluminium plate )

and all of the system  "floating "on the steel balls

https://youtu.be/G3b8-AOvzaM

Of course it is very difficult at technical level  to be very accurate. So please take all this stuff as simple experiment and not as established fact.

But perhaps as TK  seems to have made all this experiments long ago perhaps he could help us and show some of his experiment and results.

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: TinselKoala on January 20, 2018, 07:39:16 AM
Woopy, think about action/reaction. If your aluminum plate is much heavier than the device you are testing, it is possible for the device to "push" against the plate and move across it without seeing much opposite movement reaction of the plate.  For these experiments I have always used a precisely leveled machinist's granite "surface plate" for the base, and a sheet of plate glass for the substrate surface upon which the device under test (DUT) is placed. I generally try to ballast the plate glass with adjustable weights (like modelling clay) so that its mass is equal to the mass of the DUT. In this way I expect the glass+ballast to move in the equal amount and opposite direction as the DUT moves, if it is indeed pushing against the substrate.
 
Your latest test is intriguing because your device does seem to cause movement of the substrate aluminum plate and the DUT together in the _same_ direction. Is this because the aluminum plate is much heavier than the DUT? Is it because the bearing wheels of the DUT aren't exactly aligned with the preferred direction of motion? Or some other reason? I don't know. The fact that the whole setup _does_ move, rather than just the DUT moving across the substrate, indicates that the system is not totally reactionless. Otherwise the DUT would simply move across the aluminum plate without moving the plate.

For such a system to be useful as a space drive, or as a true weight-loss system, it must be able to move when it is not in contact with anything material it can "push against" to create an equal and opposite reaction. In testing, it should be able to move without moving the surface it is sitting on, if that surface is also free to move.

Anyhow, I admire your dedication to experimentation and I encourage you to keep going, with several more experiments you can try.  For example, does the device still cause movement when the gyro rotor is not spinning, and just the circular drive motor is used, hence eliminating any effects caused by precession alone?


(Some names: Tolchin, Shipov, Poponin, Kidd, Firmage. You may be interested in reading about Chris Duffield's experiments with the Tolchin device. It's not a gyro precession device, rather it is a weight shifter with centrifugal force. But many of the same testing principles apply.  Note especially what he says about air tables and linear air tracks. I myself also tested the same Tolchin device provided by Gennady Shipov at the ISSO laboratory in San Franciso in 1999. )
http://www.iptq.com/cd/progress_1.htm (http://www.iptq.com/cd/progress_1.htm)
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 20, 2018, 04:41:49 PM
This simple experiment here is fairly similar to the gyroboat of the 90’s


Here a motor spins the gyro,
And a imbalance on the shaft pushes the motor in one direction
once per rotation, in exactly the same place.
this oscillating precessional force translates to directional linear forces.
In this example the forces are in two dimensions.
One is parallel to the plane of rotation (tangential or radial depending on perspective)
the other dimensional force is not clearly shown in this video, but some effects are present here.
It is a vectored angle, slightly off-axis from the vertical.
This causes a ‘lifting’ effect on the side of the frame where the motor is mounted.
The force is not really “up”, but on the axis which is tied to the frame (tape roll).


If you were to place a scale under one side of the tape roll, opposite the motor
Your scale would show increased weight, because the distribution has changed momentarily
the side under the motor would show decreased weight for the same reason.
This motion is restricted by the mounts and by gravity
But if you can imagine the machine flipped sideways, you can picture the normally demonstrated
precession force causing this action.


Watch the video closely, you can see that the forces are truly in 3-dimensions.


https://youtu.be/Cj_3DaFA_ns (https://youtu.be/Cj_3DaFA_ns)
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 20, 2018, 05:05:32 PM
Here is a nice demo from an ex NASA physicist
NASA began investigating this some time in the late 80’s
(at least that was publicly released)
Inspired (allegedly) by the work of Sandy Kidd


The real experiments done by NASA involved large massive gyros
Some estimates place these wheels at 100-ft diameter weighing several tons.


This is a tiny version of an experiment, with many less degrees of freedom.
https://youtu.be/R9L8fmE0RlI (https://youtu.be/R9L8fmE0RlI)
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on January 20, 2018, 06:20:15 PM
Hi TK

thank's very much for input and compliment.
I have done a last video, where i have replaced the steel balls by roller.
I have also balanced the weight of the substrate (the black alu plate which is originally almost 2 times lighter than the machine)
I don't know if the fact to use roller instead of balls interfer badly on the results ??
By doing this i can redo the test on my leveled and smooth cooking vitroceramique , i know that there is nothing to compare with a perfect machiniste plate, but it is better than my wooden table.
So it seems that, this time , the machine go forward and the substrate move almost not.

https://youtu.be/GSi1JzGogdM

I have looked some of your links and i don't know if the moving pendulums can exhibit some gyroscopic effect, but i have learned a lot on test on air tables or tracks and errors they can produce. And how easy it is to be fooled by those inertial systems.

So as usual i have to be very careful with the results, and i hope some others will come in the game so we can compare the results


Hi Smoky2

Yes M. Mccabe as made a lot of very impressive experiment with gyro and there is a lot of video on youtube. I have heard that he passed away (not sure) very sad. The one you have linked is probabbly something i will replicate to try to understand with my fingers what is going on.

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: telecom on January 21, 2018, 01:40:41 AM
You can probably increase the effect by applying an extra weight on a gyro end.
It should precess more (just guessing)
Can you measure the force by stopping the movement with a fish scale?
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on January 22, 2018, 12:04:27 AM
You can probably increase the effect by applying an extra weight on a gyro end.
It should precess more (just guessing)
Can you measure the force by stopping the movement with a fish scale?

Hi telecom

No i don't think it will help because if you read the Fiala's patent , you will understand that the less "no gyroscopic" mass you have  on the  the gyro , the better will be the effect.

So if you see on my video part 2 and part 3, where the system is on steel balls, the general mouvement is forward and drifting to the left.

So on the left 180 degree of the device there is full inertia and centrifugal force (the gyro is a dead mass), because the gyro is NOT in precession. And on the opposite 180 degree the gyro is in full precesssion and and so it exhibits very few inertial and centrifugal forces. And this is exactly that asymetry between the both 180 degree that propells the device. The greater the asymetry the stronger the effect.

 So if i add some dead (non gyroscopic) mass on the gyro side , the asymetry will be decrease and so the effect.

Hope this helps

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: telecom on January 22, 2018, 05:40:49 AM
Hi telecom

No i don't think it will help because if you read the Fiala's patent , you will understand that the less "no gyroscopic" mass you have  on the  the gyro , the better will be the effect.

So if you see on my video part 2 and part 3, where the system is on steel balls, the general mouvement is forward and drifting to the left.

So on the left 180 degree of the device there is full inertia and centrifugal force (the gyro is a dead mass), because the gyro is NOT in precession. And on the opposite 180 degree the gyro is in full precesssion and and so it exhibits very few inertial and centrifugal forces. And this is exactly that asymetry between the both 180 degree that propells the device. The greater the asymetry the stronger the effect.

 So if i add some dead (non gyroscopic) mass on the gyro side , the asymetry will be decrease and so the effect.

Hope this helps

Laurent
Thanks for the explanation, but if precessed side is getting lighter,
shouldn't the center of mass move to the rolled side? which is heavier?
On your video it moves to the precessed side, which makes the whole thing to roll forward.
Have you tried measuring the force?

Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: Magluvin on January 22, 2018, 06:11:52 AM
Seeing a lot of vids with 2 gyros opposite of center, the gyros are mounted to an arm that pivots in the center. My first proposal earlier with 4 gyros, one on each corner of a platform, do not pivot on an arm from center. Instead they would pivot on their own center axis. Looking at each gyro from the vantage point of the center of the platform outward toward each of the gyros, one try would be to tilt them toward the center, or outward from center, all at the same time. Also looking at them from the same vantage point, tilt them all to the left or right, and or combinations of each for each. Im thinking having the arms tilt from the center of the platform relieves any lift that may be had by letting each gyro do as it will without actually providing any lift of the mech as a whole.

I have 2 pc fans that are stupid powerful and fast, 7k rpm, with blades removed, The blades are part of a plastic thin tube that slips over a metal spin drum containing the magnets. I was demoing one for a friend and while holding it, I went to flip it over to aim the out air flow toward him and the gyro effect took over and the blades bit my finger bad. almost to the bone. Needless to say some blades broke in the action. So I removed the whole blade assy and have a nice drum motor to fiddle with. Ill do a vid of these along with the 3rd one I have that is still bladed, as I took apart the second one the same as the first. Im sure many here will be surprised how much air this thing blows.  Can be had on ebay for $5. Will show the part no. and specs in the vid. The Thing is no joke.

So with the 2 debladed motors i will try a couple of my ideas. I have some carbon fiber rods to work a center controlling device to tilt the motors as I have stated. Contemplating a partial gimbal for each.

Will do the vid of the motors tomorrow.

Mags
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on January 22, 2018, 06:42:44 PM
Thanks for the explanation, but if precessed side is getting lighter,
shouldn't the center of mass move to the rolled side? which is heavier?
On your video it moves to the precessed side, which makes the whole thing to roll forward.
Have you tried measuring the force?

Hi telecom

The system move forward and drift to the left which is the NON precession side. To be more clear, on the left 180 degree side (related to motion), the gyro tries to precess, but it is not free to do this, as the axle is connected through the gimbal, to the traction wheel which is in contact with the ring track on the other (right side) 180 degre. And then, when the traction wheel jump down the track, BOTH , the gyro and the traction wheel do not touch the ring anymore. So the gyro can enter precession and that al along the right side 180 degree.

For info to me,this experiment is simply to check if the system is possible. which it seems to be.
Now why and how it can happen is my main motivation on this subject.
So right now,i am not very interested in measurement and optimisation of the device.

As you can see in the video, the moving force is far from tremendous, and the only way to get something usefull on this earth, would be to make the system very big and as already said in a minimum of opposite twin or a lot of opposite twin system combined and perfectly synchronised and built . And that is far from my possibilities.

I Mag

Can't wait for your video

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: Magluvin on January 22, 2018, 11:53:03 PM
Here is the fan motor vid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MVM1hcdWA8&feature=youtu.be

Mags
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: telecom on January 23, 2018, 03:02:43 AM
Hi telecom

The system move forward and drift to the left which is the NON precession side. To be more clear, on the left 180 degree side (related to motion), the gyro tries to precess, but it is not free to do this, as the axle is connected through the gimbal, to the traction wheel which is in contact with the ring track on the other (right side) 180 degre. And then, when the traction wheel jump down the track, BOTH , the gyro and the traction wheel do not touch the ring anymore. So the gyro can enter precession and that al along the right side 180 degree.

For info to me,this experiment is simply to check if the system is possible. which it seems to be.
Now why and how it can happen is my main motivation on this subject.
So right now,i am not very interested in measurement and optimisation of the device.

As you can see in the video, the moving force is far from tremendous, and the only way to get something usefull on this earth, would be to make the system very big and as already said in a minimum of opposite twin or a lot of opposite twin system combined and perfectly synchronised and built . And that is far from my possibilities.

I Mag

Can't wait for your video

Laurent

This is the most interesting experiment I've seen in years.
No matter how small is the force, it has a huge importance.
Do you have any ideas how to optimize the device?
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on January 23, 2018, 04:23:42 PM
This is the most interesting experiment I've seen in years.
No matter how small is the force, it has a huge importance.
Do you have any ideas how to optimize the device?

Hi telecom

Yes it is also my most shaking brain experiment.

What we see on my video is only the starter, the main meal should be the understanding of why a spinning AND precessing gyro seems to loose some inertia and centrifugal force.

And the dessert should be to make something usefull with that.

Of course there is a lot of possibilities to increase the effect.

M. Harvey Emanuel Fiala took the immense time to write one of the the better patent i have ever seen. As i say in my video (part 1) this is better than a patent this is a full lecture.
There is almost 50 pleasant drawings of different embodiements and schematics and sheets of results of experiment. There is also 33 sheets of explanation of the general system and each figures is described.
A really remarkable work that everyone interested in the subject should read.

Personnally i have printed the whole 83 pages and made a reference book.

There is a lot of other papers and patent from M. Laithwaite, Alex jones, Sandy Kidd, a very intersting paper from the late Fran MacCabe in his internet site.
There is also the "gyroscope .org " forum with a lot of discussions about the gyros.

Etc..

I have found 2 other of these small centrifugal clutch wheels, and perhaps i will try to do a double rotor device for my pleasure and to learn more.

OK hope this helps


Hi Mag

Do you intend to replicate some of M. Fiala 's patent devices with your motor. Or do you want to experiment others gyro possibilities ?

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on February 10, 2018, 07:52:09 PM
Hi all

It seems that the inertial propulsion does not interest too much people ?

Always trying to understand the process i go on with some new experiments.

https://youtu.be/1IEi_4TWu5o

Hope this helps

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: webby1 on February 10, 2018, 08:10:22 PM

Hi Laurent,

I am following with interest, but I am playing with other stuff right now.


Keep up the sharing of your efforts, I appreciate what you are doing.
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: telecom on February 11, 2018, 02:43:27 AM
Hi all

It seems that the inertial propulsion does not interest too much people ?

Always trying to understand the process i go on with some new experiments.

https://youtu.be/1IEi_4TWu5o

Hope this helps

Laurent

I think making a bigger flywheel was a huge step in the right direction.
Can you measure the pull now?
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: MagnaProp on February 11, 2018, 06:17:47 AM
Nicely done with that last video of yours. Looks like a very good mover indeed.

...
@MagnaProp

Without replicating i can not say anything.

But interestingly, Laithwaite understood that if the device has to work as a space propellant, it has to be not only a twin system but a double twin to direct the motorising effect in one direction.
So not easy at all to replicate without very high grade craftmanship.
Thanks for the info. Very intriguing experiments you are doing and comments about Laithwaite. Keep up the good work. These experiments of yours have peaked my interest.
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on February 14, 2018, 07:31:11 PM
Hi all

I made a new test.

This time the gyro is attached on a bicycle wheel, which hang on the roof with a very thin MONOTORON (untwisted and unelastic) Kevlar (aramid) thread.

During the experiment, the thread is not detwisting, on the contrary it is winding.

So this time we have absolutely no friction at all, and the system seems to work well.

Apology for the long boring 7 minutes of the video but it seems that the gyro effectively loses some inertia on his back track, and this is what is interesting. And the question is why and how?

https://youtu.be/VoDj5KlJztc

just for info i have added 2 more "fidget brass ring" so the gyro has now 5 rings and work very good also on the ground.

Hope this helps

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on February 14, 2018, 10:53:33 PM
Great experiment! I like your last video (the thing hanging from the ceiling, part 6) which seems to prove that there is real propulsion (no back and forward movement, only forward).

I have a question:

The motor is spinning the weight. Does the long axle interact with the ring? Or asked differently, does the long axle every now and then touch the ring in order to make the contraption move around the ring?

Asked in a third way, the spinning weight is actively driven around the ring because the spinning axle touches the ring at least during part of the round trip along the ring?

In your first video (part 1), this grating sound can be heard. I this grating sound caused by the axle touching the ring (in order to drive the spinning wheel around the ring)?

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on February 15, 2018, 03:21:34 PM
Great experiment! I like your last video (the thing hanging from the ceiling, part 6) which seems to prove that there is real propulsion (no back and forward movement, only forward).

I have a question:

The motor is spinning the weight. Does the long axle interact with the ring? Or asked differently, does the long axle every now and then touch the ring in order to make the contraption move around the ring?

Asked in a third way, the spinning weight is actively driven around the ring because the spinning axle touches the ring at least during part of the round trip along the ring?

In your first video (part 1), this grating sound can be heard. I this grating sound caused by the axle touching the ring (in order to drive the spinning wheel around the ring)?



Greetings, Conrad

Hi conrad


Yes you understand well

There is only 1 motor which spins the long  shaft . There is no motor to rotate the system vertically.

The gyro is attached at one end of the shaft and on the opposite part of the long shaft there should be a traction wheel. But in this specific set up, the shaft itself is  the traction wheel.

The traction wheel is in contact with the ring (orange) on about 180 degrees of the rotation. During this contact, the traction wheel  does 2 actions

1- it forces the gyro to rotate perfectly horizontally around the ring (orange) at a very precise speed.

2- it prevent the gyro to precess because the gyro tries to raise up and prescess, but it can not, so the gyro behave as a simple "dead" mass rotating on a horizontal planar path. And the gyro exhibit its full inertia and centrifugal force. And as it can not precess the gyro also apply a strong gyroscopic vertical torque on the shaft which is transmitted to the traction wheel which get a strong downward push against the ring creating a good grip and the powerfull motorizing swing.

Then on the other 180 degrees, the traction wheel jump in "freefall" down the"cliff" of the splitted ring and does nothing more.

So the gyro is now free to raise up and precess. During this part of the rotation neither the traction wheel  nor the gyro are in contact with the ring(orange). All "float" in the air.

And during this part of the rotation, the precessing gyro loses a big part of its inertia, so it can can come back to the initial position by natural precession (precession due to gravity), without  swinging effect and without counter motoring effect.

You can clearly see that the gyro swing fast and precess (and also nutate) slowly .

And the question is how and why a precessing gyro seems to lose its inertia and centrifugal force ??????

I would recommand to read the patent (see in part 1 ) of the inventor, M. Harvey Fiala, it is very interesting and informative.

Hope this helps

Laurent

Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on February 15, 2018, 06:26:05 PM
Laurent, thank you for your reply and explanations. I read the patent but was not sure how your replication worked. (You did a truthful replication.)

1) I have the impression from your videos that the arm holding the spinning wheel (the gyroscope) is accelerated from the moment the traction wheel engages the ring till it loses contact (for 180° of the round trip).

    And then the arm de-accelerates while the spinning wheel is freely flying the other half of its round trip.

    In other words, the arm is not turning with a constant speed but speeds up during one half of its round trip and slows down the other half. (While the spinning wheel, the gyroscope, is always spinning at the same speed.)


2) I wonder whether the spinning wheel could stay in the same plane during its round trip (no nodding)? The nodding seems to be necessary in order to engage and disengage the traction wheel and may have no other purpose?


I once did some experiments in this field of research but only managed the ominous and well known back and forth movement. I dumped everything years ago but will make some drawings in order to discuss my findings and possible solutions based on the Fiala patent.


Laurent, your experiments made me dig up my collection of stepper motors and I might buy some modern stepper motor shields for my Arduino. It is intriguing. I am not expecting that a "space drive" which turns rotary forces into linear forces (as Fiala claims) is really possible, but there is still a lot to be learned about turning gyroscopes. I am particularly interested in the "nodding" of a gyroscope as Fiala is doing in his patent. It is strange that Fiala is only "nodding" his gyroscope a little bit (about 5°).

Concerning your latest experiment (part 6 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoDj5KlJztc&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoDj5KlJztc&feature=youtu.be)): It is hard to explain the turning of your contraption other than by a net force in the turning direction. This should be impossible, but you did it anyway. It could be that the Fiala invention only works on a planet (against gravity) and not in free fall? In other words, the Fiala invention pushes against gravity (straight down) and turns that into a weak forward motion (probably by help of friction, even friction in the air). If there is no gravity to push against, it might not work? But this is only speculation.

The Fiala patent was filed in February 2011. If it had worked one would have heard about it in the meantime. There probably is a catch (an error of thought) in the thing. Some things are too good to be true. But your experiments are great whatever the end result.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: TinselKoala on February 15, 2018, 07:43:43 PM
Oh, I see. So with Woopy's present apparatus there doesn't appear to be any way to isolate the "gyro spinning" from the rotation in the precession direction. That's too bad because I'd like to see if there is any test that can be performed to see if it is really a gyro effect or if it is due simply to the variation in speed as the weight goes around the vertical axis.

I'd also like to be able to distinguish between "forced precession" and normal precession. That is, if the gyro is being rotated around the vertical axis faster than it would precess simply by gravity alone, this is forced precession and the gyro should rise up, which as I understand it would break the contact between the "friction wheel" or axle, and the circular ramp part.

I can testify that forcing a gyro to go faster around the precession axis than it normally would go, will yield very interesting results as the gyro rises (a la Laithwaite).

But I am still skeptical about the behaviour shown, since I think it's possible to "pump up" a torsion pendulum with properly timed rotational pulses, which I think could be provided merely by a nonspinning weight that accelerated and decelerated like woopy's gyro does.

At any rate this is a great series of experiments by woopy and I hope that he or we can figure out some way to actually test whether the gyro is doing the "dirty work" or if a nonspinning weight would do the same.
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on February 15, 2018, 10:37:20 PM
I want to report some work I have done some years ago:

I built a platform with two stepper motors. Each stepper motor had an arm with a heavy weight on its end.

1) The arms were first turned synchronously and at a constant angular speed. Not surprisingly the platform moved back and forth (in the ideal situation without friction). But also in the real world it moved back and forth on the spot. The highest speed of the movement was observed at the middle of the way of the back and forth movement.

2) The arms were turned synchronously but accelerated from 0° to 180° and decelerated from 180° to 360°. The movement of the platform was again back an forth on the spot (theoretically without friction and in the real world if friction was very low). But the highest speed of the movement was observed near the end of the respective movement (not in the middle as with a uniform angular speed).

Now comes my speculation:

What happens if gyroscopes are used instead of the dead heavy weights at the end of the arms? Specially if the arms are accelerated and decelerated as in point 2) above?

Will "nodding" the gyroscopes make any difference? Not a slight "nodding" as in the Fiala patent but lets "nod" up 45° from the vertical plane during acceleration (first half circle) and then "nod" down -45° from the vertical plane during deceleration (second half circle). "Nodding" like a sine wave where the zero crossing is at 0° and 180° of the circle described by the gyroscope on the arm.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on February 15, 2018, 11:33:11 PM
Hi all

to conrad

yes your observation is right the swinging part is much faster than the precessing part.

So i can suppose that at the "jumping in free fall "moment of the traction wheel there is some extra speed that induces a slight forced precession which provoke the nutation.

Perhaps you could try some spinning gyros on your setup but don't forget that a vertical oscillation of the shaft has to be possible if you want to get any possible effect.

Just for fun prof Steven Johns asked me on youtube to let the system spin so long as possible.

So AMEN i did it, i replaced the monotoron kevlar line with a solid iron thread at the end of which i installed a high quality  ballbearing just at the top of the triangle bycicle wheel suspending wire.

And i let the system spinning and here the results.

first i put on a new charged 300 ma lipo battery and let the system spin  and the tension of the battery going down to a regular descharging rate during 4.5 mnutes.

than i measure the time to complete a full rotation each 3 turns (with a chronometer and by hand, so not super accurate)

so

1 turn    14,3 sec
4 turn     13.9 sec
7 turn     13.9 sec
10 turn    13.7 sec
13turn     13.3 sec
16turn     13.1sec
19 turn    12.9 sec
22 turn    13.00
25 turn    13.00

then i ear clearly the battery begins to deplete so end of the test

total duration of the test 4.5 warm up + about 5.5 test (25 turns at average of 13.3 sec)  = 10 minutes

So as you can see, the system seems not to slow down

OK will think of further test i can do with the sytem

Any good ideas are welcome if not too complex


to TK

yes i am sure that forced precession is a must.

I am slowly preparing me to test the Fialas forced precession system (second part of the patent) i am sampling some servos to this intention

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on February 16, 2018, 11:50:54 AM
to conrad

yes your observation is right the swinging part is much faster than the precessing part.

So i can suppose that at the "jumping in free fall "moment of the traction wheel there is some extra speed that induces a slight forced precession which provoke the nutation.

Perhaps you could try some spinning gyros on your setup but don't forget that a vertical oscillation of the shaft has to be possible if you want to get any possible effect.

Laurent


The big riddle for me is this rather "small vertical oscillation" which seems to be all important. I wonder whether a "big vertical oscillation" would make the machine more effective?

Also the "free fall requirement" (when the traction wheel is not engaged) is very mysterious.

In addition there seems to be a speed requirement imposed on the gyroscope. In the videos one sees Laurent adjusting the turning speed of the gyroscope. In the patent Fiala hints that the rotation speed of the gyroscope needs to be in a certain relation to the rotation speed of the arm carrying the gyroscope. Fiala goes on and on about the diameter of the traction wheel.

Very strange! The patent does not explain at which moment (while the arm carrying the gyroscope moves in a circle) the forward force is generated. And most strange is Fiala's idea that mass is decreasing once an object goes faster than light.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on February 16, 2018, 12:50:29 PM
To TK

Your remarks on the stopped gyro was intriging, and i did a test to check your proposal. As i have some of those 360 servos i mounted the gyro as a dead mass on one of them.

https://youtu.be/p3iEy5sprpA

But no chance to spin the bicycle wheel. In addition,I tested different speed and direction of rotation , and even by aiding the rotation it invariabely go to a stop. Exactly as Steven Jones said.

So the gyro seems to do the DIRTY WORK.


To conrad

yes the Fiala patent is disturbing, and it is exactly why i was intersted in a replication.

I hope that people will ,as you do, take the time to investigate the patent and eventually find what is exactly this DIRTY WORK as TK name it.

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on February 16, 2018, 02:50:29 PM
To conrad

yes the Fiala patent is disturbing, and it is exactly why i was intersted in a replication.

I hope that people will ,as you do, take the time to investigate the patent and eventually find what is exactly this DIRTY WORK as TK name it.

Laurent

My tests with the platform I showed above had the same results as your latest video (inertial propulsion with gyroscope part 7, servo driven).

Ratchet wheels on my platform (wheels which only turn in one direction) made it move forward because friction inhibited the backwards movement. One could also make the platform shoot forward once by starting from a wall which inhibited the first backward movement.

Turning the arms slowly from 0° to 180° and turning them very fast (fast speed up and fast breaking) from 180° to 360° (arms were turned synchronously) also caused forward movement because the slow backwards movement was mostly inhibited by friction.

So, my contraption (as shown above in principle) always needed friction to move forwards no matter what strange acceleration and deceleration I imparted on the two arms with complicated drive algorithms for the stepper motors.

So, moving dead weights in a circle seems to need friction for one directional movement (without friction and specially in free fall it would move back and forth on the spot).


Now let's put gyroscopes instead of dead weights. And as I said in previous posts, the strange idea of Fiala is a half cycle acceleration and a half cycle "free fall" which results in a strange "nodding" as I call it.

I have no idea how to implement "free fall" or "free coasting of a gyroscope" with a stepper motor because a stepper motor cogs severely in case no current is supplied. And I do not know how to drive a DC motor precisely which would be needed to accelerate for exactly one half turn. A DC motor does not exert much breaking forth in case no current is supplied, but still, it would not be "free coasting" too. So, I end up with the strange tracks in the Fiala patent which worry me a lot. From a mechanical point of view the Fiala contraption is very badly designed (acceleration by grating on a track and bumping against an incline on the track) and there should be an equivalent design which is more sound.

I do not want to start a replication till I have an idea for "free fall" or "free coasting of a gyroscope" with a more reliable drive mechanism than a "track". I like stepper motors because they allow for repeatable and precise speed and position control. DC motors are no good because they hardly allow position control and only vague speed control. A servo is not bad (because it allows position control) but also cogs severely if no current is supplied. From a control point of view a servo is a badly designed stepper motor based on a DC motor with position feedback. A servo is also slow in comparison to a stepper motor (but can be much stronger because a fast turning DC motor is geared down).


How important is the "free fall" or "free coasting of the gyroscope" in Fiala's patent? And is "nodding" really necessary? I pose this questions over and over again in my mind when thinking about the Fiala patent.


Accelerating a gyroscope (when it moves in a circle) seems to have the same effect as accelerating a dead weight, but then when acceleration stops a dead weight does noting strange but a gyroscope will "nod" (it translates the imparted acceleration into a nod). And it seems that this "nod" (which is not allowed to be "restricted" and has to happen "freely") is the trick and this "nod" needs not to be much, just a "little nod". Well, this is my bad and incomplete explanation.


Laurent's big and important contribution is that his replication shows that there is really something interesting in the Fiala patent. But I think that doing a second replication is not a step forward. I want to isolate the effect which apparently exits (as Laurent shows) with other means than a "track". May be a servo can be used. The servo could engage a lever while the gyroscope does a half circle and disengages the lever while the gyroscope "free falls" the other half circle. Well, needs some more thinking.


I have stepper motors, DC motors and servos. I just need to buy a modern motor control shield for the Arduino https://www.adafruit.com/product/1438 (https://www.adafruit.com/product/1438), may be two Arduinos and two motor control shields because I want two gyroscopes turn in a circle, one CW and the other CCW. The gyroscopes could be driven with DC motors and a simple speed control and their own battery (like Laurent has implemented his gyroscope with the heavy fidget spinner rings).

Laurent, what kind of speed control do you use for your gyroscope (must be a little DC motor speed control board) and what DC motor?


Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on February 16, 2018, 06:25:00 PM
Here a thread from 2013 and 2014 where a person tried to build a space drive (without success) http://overunity.com/14090/m-drive-reactionless-drive-invented-by-me/#.WocPXKjiaHs (http://overunity.com/14090/m-drive-reactionless-drive-invented-by-me/#.WocPXKjiaHs)


In this thread I posted photos of my own attempt as I described above. I attach two photos of the self contained little platform which was driven by a PIC-processor and a two stepper motor driver chips. It carried its own power supply (batteries). By reprogramming the PIC-processor I could try many different movements of the two arms each carrying a dead weight (brass ball and little brass plate at the end of a short arm fixed to the axle of a stepper motor). The arms were short because the two stepper motors had little torque. I needed to avoid missteps of the stepper motors in order to maintain programmed acceleration and deceleration patterns for the arms. I also tested the contraption swimming on water (on a piece of wood) and there one could clearly see that it moved only back and forth.


I built three contraptions. The first one was not self contained (needed wires to a stationary power supply and controller) and a third bigger one with strong stepper motors flinging 800 gram weights. It was fun and an absolute failure besides learning how to drive stepper motors. The shown second contraption was the best from a design point of view.


Just to show that I have been there with the usual outcome (failure). Everybody can build something that works. But it needs great skill to always build something that does not work.


Greetings, Conrad


(P.S.: I dumped the contraptions some years ago when I cleaned house, but luckily I found the photos on overunity.com)
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: DrJones on February 16, 2018, 06:44:37 PM
  This is very interesting work.  Thanks for the continuing videos, Laurent.


  I have a further suggestion for an experiment, and have stopped in our travels to make a quick post.
 
   Rotate your device 180-degrees, so now the "push" should be in the opposite direction.*  Now see which direction (counter-clockwise or clockwise?) the bicycle wheel turns.  Even though it will take longer (I think) to make a complete turn, the bicycle wheel should still turn.  Which direction the bike wheel rotates will tell us something![/font][/size]

[/font][/size]
*Alternatively, move the device without rotating it, to the OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE BICYCLE WHEEL. [/font][/size]
--Steven Jones[/font][/size]
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on February 16, 2018, 09:17:30 PM
This thread http://overunity.com/14090/m-drive-reactionless-drive-invented-by-me/#.Woc1v6jiaHt (http://overunity.com/14090/m-drive-reactionless-drive-invented-by-me/#.Woc1v6jiaHt) is very instructive. The "inventor" is spinning two gyroscopes (drilling machines) and even waves them up and down like in Fig. 20 of the Fiala patent (see this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgCgrMetRsc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgCgrMetRsc) ). It does not work, although the "inventor" wants to see something in his demonstration (but he stopped in 2014). The "inventor" exhibits the usual blindness concerning his "invention".

So, just spinning two gyroscopes (like I did with the dead weights) and even "waving" or "nodding" them up and down will not work. One seems to need that "free fall" or "free coasting of the gyroscopes" for half a circle like in Fig. 1 of the Fiala patent.

It means for me that I do not need to test "restricted" movement of gyroscopes around a full circle. I have to find a solution for the "free fall" or "free coasting" half circle.

I also suspect that only Laurent's replication works (Fig. 1 of the Fiala patent) und not the embodiment according to Fig. 20 of the Fiala patent. I see no "free fall periode" in Fig. 20 and therefore it will not work for the same reasons as the contraption in the unsuccessful thread http://overunity.com/14090/m-drive-reactionless-drive-invented-by-me/#.Woc1v6jiaHt (http://overunity.com/14090/m-drive-reactionless-drive-invented-by-me/#.Woc1v6jiaHt) . It might work if the "reset cylinder 182" (see Fig. 20) can set free the gyroscope for one half circle. The embodiment of Fig. 20 also lacks the "speeding up during one half circle", which hints that the inventor never built it.

Very intriguing! It always pays to study prior work. Most of the things imaginable have already been tried by some poor soul in the past.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on February 17, 2018, 11:02:16 AM
This thread http://overunity.com/14090/m-drive-reactionless-drive-invented-by-me/#.Woc1v6jiaHt (http://overunity.com/14090/m-drive-reactionless-drive-invented-by-me/#.Woc1v6jiaHt) is very instructive. The "inventor" is spinning two gyroscopes (drilling machines) and even waves them up and down like in Fig. 20 of the Fiala patent (see this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgCgrMetRsc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgCgrMetRsc) ). It does not work, although the "inventor" wants to see something in his demonstration (but he stopped in 2014). The "inventor" exhibits the usual blindness concerning his "invention".

So, just spinning two gyroscopes (like I did with the dead weights) and even "waving" or "nodding" them up and down will not work. One seems to need that "free fall" or "free coasting of the gyroscopes" for half a circle like in Fig. 1 of the Fiala patent.

It means for me that I do not need to test "restricted" movement of gyroscopes around a full circle. I have to find a solution for the "free fall" or "free coasting" half circle.

I also suspect that only Laurent's replication works (Fig. 1 of the Fiala patent) und not the embodiment according to Fig. 20 of the Fiala patent. I see no "free fall periode" in Fig. 20 and therefore it will not work for the same reasons as the contraption in the unsuccessful thread http://overunity.com/14090/m-drive-reactionless-drive-invented-by-me/#.Woc1v6jiaHt (http://overunity.com/14090/m-drive-reactionless-drive-invented-by-me/#.Woc1v6jiaHt) . It might work if the "reset cylinder 182" (see Fig. 20) can set free the gyroscope for one half circle. The embodiment of Fig. 20 also lacks the "speeding up during one half circle", which hints that the inventor never built it.

Very intriguing! It always pays to study prior work. Most of the things imaginable have already been tried by some poor soul in the past.

Greetings, Conrad

Hi conrad

This experiment is one of the most brain shaking machine.

Thank's very much for your interest.

I have made a rapid tour on the link you mention and i tried to figure out the analogy with Fig 20 of the fiala's patent. On the experiment of M.drive i don't see the precise timing of the gyros they seem to go back and forth quite heratically. Now if you look at the graph on fig 29 of fiala's patent, it seems clear that there is first a motorization of the rotation of the device on half a turn, which induces precession of the gyro which can freely raise up 60 degrees. Then the  rotation's motorization stops, and the piston (182)  push down the gyros  and this pushdown is the swing which should motorize up the whole device. What is not clear to me is if when the rotation's motorisation stops, if the vertical main shaft also stops or if it is free to spin during the down push. If it is free to spin, the down push should also exhibit an axial precession and perhaps diminish the power of the down swing but i dono.
M. Fiala speak also of stepper motor for this fig 20 setup. So perhaps you can imagine a programation for that purpose. I am personnally thinking to use 180 degree servo with one way bearing for the main shaft (if it is free to spin after its motorization) and another 180 deg servo for the vertical up and down movement. But it will not be an easy task for sure. And as you said some good studying before doing is a must.

To Steven

Thank's for the proposal, i will do.

Just for info, i made a small reflection this night:

when the device is on a flat floor and mounted on wheels (ball bearing) it speed up almost instantly, i mean at the first rotation (swing) it goes forward. But on the suspended wheel it need a very long time to speed up (some minutes from the zero speed start point).

So i think that the answer is that the suspended wheel (with 3 lines) plus a vertical monotoron, can woble in all direction and this wobling make the "floor of the wheel" somehow "wavy"
.
So when the device is on a flat hard floor,  the swing of the gyro (when the traction wheel is in contact with the traction ring) is perfectly horizontal all along the 180 derees and the gyro does not precess at all, so the swing is very efficient .

But on the suspended wheel, the floor is "wavy" and the swing is not perfectly horizontal all along the 180 degrees, so the gyro can slightly precess and , if the theory of m. Fiala is right, it loses some angular momentum, so the swing is not very efficient.

So i will redo completely the experiment with 4 lines  and no monotoron to max stabilise the suspended wheel and see if the gyro accelerate better, and then try all your suggestions.

Fascinating gyros !

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on February 17, 2018, 09:10:12 PM
@Laurent: I will read more carefully in the Fiala patent about the Fig. 20 type embodiment, may be there is more information in the many pages of the patent.

I think I found a solution for building a Fig. 1 embodiment (like your replication) with a stepper motor and no tracks. I will make drawings for discussion prior to implementation.

The Adafruit motor shield for the Arduino is in the mail. It should open up many options.

But everything is a lot of work and will take time.

A one way bearing on a servo is a good idea. If you drive a 360° servo with a microprocessor you can reduce its turning speed after 180° to let the gyroscope "fly freely" for the other half circle. At the end of the circle (at 0°=360°) you catch up with the servo to push again for 180°. But you have to limit the nodding of the gyroscope again with some rails. Wait for my drawing (a few days), may be it can be done with a servo as well. I just do not like servos, but this is a personal choice. A stepper motor is best for trying many strange movements, but it has to be done with a microprocessor (a program). An Arduino with motor shield is a overkill, but so what, it is not expensive and can be programmed easily with a PC.

Laurent, could you tell me which DC motor and which speed control you use for the gyroscope shown in your videos. Your gyroscope seems to work well and I could just copy it from you (including the figet spinner rings).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: DrJones on February 18, 2018, 01:57:17 AM
 This is an important observation, Laurent:
"So when the device is on a flat hard floor,  the swing of the gyro (when the traction wheel is in contact with the traction ring) is perfectly horizontal all along the 180 derees and the gyro does [/font]not precess[/font] at all, so the swing is very efficient ."[/font]

[/font]

[/font]
Thank you for being so careful and observant!  [/size]
   I must say that the demo you did with a device rolling freely on marbles was very convincing to me.  For then, the device is free to move linearly (the term in English is, free to translate) or to rotate - yet it is seen to move linearly!  [/size]

[/size]
PS - may I insert a quick question to you, Laurent.  Years ago, I was following your excellent progress measuring the input and output power on a simple "cold fusion" flask using electrolysis in light water H2O. You were making progressive tests and improvements.  It did appear that you were getting "anomalous excess heat" (AEH) (which I think is a MUCH better term than "cold fusion" since in light water, the basis would not be fusion.)   [/size]
    My question is - do you still think that you were getting AEH?  or did you find some mistake??[/size]

   I do not ask this to cause any embarrassment - rather, I personally think there are conditions where AEH is quite likely (based on several experiments I have seen) - and I would appreciate a quick follow-up on your intriguing set of experiments with light-water electrolysis.
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on February 18, 2018, 10:51:30 PM
Hi conrad

Very good idea if you can organize a steper motor and some elegant system to mimic the fig 1.

in general i find the matos in my generous backyard as i made a lot of modellism,  i have a lot of junk stuff every where in my house.

So for the small motor it is a old Graupner 6 volts (i had since a very long time) and the gear is self made with some plastic gears ratio 1 to 3.

For the motor controllers , and brass fidget rings, and ball bearing etc.. you will find at "chinese Banggood" for very good price.  I can look for detail parts if you will.


Hi Steven

I now understand why so few people are interested in this inertial propulsion with gyro.

This is the most unintuitiv  thing i have never experienced. You think you have understood , and right after the device behave totally contrary to your expectation. Fascinating at first glance but if you have bad luck or not enough craftmanship and perseverance you will rapidly give up and say OK that's a waste of time and anyway so many people have already tried and failed.

So i think i had great  luck to get it work on my 1 part video, which encourage me to go further.

So as i said i have redone the complete suspending system and also the device itself so i can easily rototate it all the 360 degres on the basis.

First i made a serie of test clockwise. And what surprise me is that there is always some wobling but also a SIDE push. Remember the marble test where the device does not translate straight forward, but drifted sideway.
And sideway drift pushes the suspended wheel also side way.  So in the clockwise test i have to reorient the "forward push " not tangential to the bicycle rim, but much "outer" . so the forward and sideward vectors compose in a rufly steady forward tangential vector. So now it is clear to me why on this suspended wheel it is impossible to get a motorising vector as efficient as per a floor contacting machine. And of course the wobling which does not help.

Plus of course the heavy rim (615gr) plus the counter weight (220gr) to move and also the ballbearing friction etc..

But in clockwise rotation , i always get good steady rotation , i also changed the position of the device on one side of the balsa wood end to the other, as you asked, and no significant change.

But when i rotate the device 180 degres, i also change the sideward displacement, so to get some counter clockwise translation, i have to rotate MORE than the 180 degres and now the composition of the pushing vector (forward and sideward) is very bad oriented. So i get a counter clockwise rotation, but soooo weak that at each time that the sustention ball bearing have the slightest resistance, the rotation stops. I suppose that with the monotoron kevlar thread, i will get some counter clockwise turns, but i have all dismantled, and i am not very much sure that it is relevant here.

So to resume for today experiment.    when the swing of the gyro is outer the rim, it pushes efficiently, and when the swing is on the inner part of the rim =nada. So this system does not behave as a pendulum as per part 7 of my video. and I HAVE TO ADMIT THAT THE GYRO dOES THE DIRTY WORK as Tinselkoala name it.

So for a good propulsion, it is absolutely necessary to mount a TWIN OPPOSITE and SYNCHRONIZED Spinning system, so the sideward forces are annulated and only stays the forward forces.

But as i said from the beginning of this thread, i am not interested in space propulsion system.

What puzzle me is the DIRTY WORK of the gyro----- what seems to create a reduction of the angular momentum in a spinning and precessing gyro.



Finally and out of topic
the big problem with my AES experiment was the measuremnt  of the INPUT power. So i could get no body  to help me  and only crude critics on the internet forum, so
without high quality instrument i was not able to go on this fantastic experiment. But as you say i am following the big progress of others and it seems that something is slowly progressing.
As a friend of mine says " they think that the real physic is in the classroom, not on youtube "

Laurent




Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: DrJones on February 19, 2018, 03:27:18 PM
  Laurent, I am very impressed by your enthusiastic pursuit of truth.  I like unusual/alternative approaches also.  Thank you for responding vis-a-vis the light-water experiment.  I found your work impressive.


   Back to the gyroscope system - as I mentioned earlier, I find your floor-based system, rolling freely on marbles, to be the best and easiest to understand the motion. 


   You wrote:
"Remember the marble test where the device does not translate straight forward, but drifted sideway.[/size]And sideway drift pushes the suspended wheel also side way.  So in the clockwise test i have to reorient the "forward push " not tangential to the bicycle rim, but much "outer" . so the forward and sideward vectors compose in a rufly steady forward tangential vector. So now it is clear to me why on this suspended wheel it is impossible to get a motorising vector as efficient as per a floor contacting machine. And of course the wobling which does not help."[/size]

[/size]
 Right - a sideways drift is observed, that's fine - it still moves in a such a way that (linear) momentum conservation appears to be challenged, and that is a lot of fun to see.


 If I could ask you to do ONE more experiment, it would be to repeat the marble test - taking video (data) for 2 or 3 minutes, and just let the device move freely.  Let's see how it behaves over time in this way.  It would be a fitting conclusion to a wonderful series of experiments that you have performed.
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on February 19, 2018, 07:51:21 PM
  Laurent, I am very impressed by your enthusiastic pursuit of truth.  I like unusual/alternative approaches also.  Thank you for responding vis-a-vis the light-water experiment.  I found your work impressive.


   Back to the gyroscope system - as I mentioned earlier, I find your floor-based system, rolling freely on marbles, to be the best and easiest to understand the motion. 


   You wrote:
"Remember the marble test where the device does not translate straight forward, but drifted sideway.[/size]And sideway drift pushes the suspended wheel also side way.  So in the clockwise test i have to reorient the "forward push " not tangential to the bicycle rim, but much "outer" . so the forward and sideward vectors compose in a rufly steady forward tangential vector. So now it is clear to me why on this suspended wheel it is impossible to get a motorising vector as efficient as per a floor contacting machine. And of course the wobling which does not help."[/size]

[/size]
 Right - a sideways drift is observed, that's fine - it still moves in a such a way that (linear) momentum conservation appears to be challenged, and that is a lot of fun to see.


 If I could ask you to do ONE more experiment, it would be to repeat the marble test - taking video (data) for 2 or 3 minutes, and just let the device move freely.  Let's see how it behaves over time in this way.  It would be a fitting conclusion to a wonderful series of experiments that you have performed.


Hi Steven and all

Thank's for the proposal

Here the video

https://youtu.be/_WBD5hZu0t4

And as you can see there is a forward displacement of the center of mass of the device and the substrate almost don't move.

For info the ballbearing of the device are high quality fidget ballbearings without side protection so there spin very freely.

And as seen on the suspended wheel, there is also a sideward force to the right of the translation depacement.

So it seems that we have to seriously study what is going on here. The Fiala's patent could be a good base.

Hope this helps

Laurent

Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 19, 2018, 08:03:30 PM
Nice work Woopy




To all:


I must have missed the presumed logical fallacy.
What is the basis for conjecture against this form
of propulsion?
(I assume many of you never saw the gyro boat)


To me this all seems classical Newtonian.
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on February 19, 2018, 10:25:28 PM
Nice work Woopy




To all:


I must have missed the presumed logical fallacy.
What is the basis for conjecture against this form
of propulsion?
(I assume many of you never saw the gyro boat)


To me this all seems classical Newtonian.


Hi smoky

Very interesting , have you a link on this "gyro boat with inertial propulsion"

Because a know very well the gyro stabilization device for boat, but i never heard  from a gyro propulsion device for boat ?

many thank's for your interst

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: DrJones on February 20, 2018, 01:23:52 AM
  Congratulations on a difficult experiment and test, Laurent - with your "part 8" video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WBD5hZu0t4&feature=push-u-sub&attr_tag=1X1BbXfPgaQNdIjg-6


I take note especially of those instances when the device goes left just a little, before proceeding to the right.


I posted further comments there.  Thanks again!
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: tinman on February 20, 2018, 02:47:57 PM

Hi smoky

Very interesting , have you a link on this "gyro boat with inertial propulsion"

Because a know very well the gyro stabilization device for boat, but i never heard  from a gyro propulsion device for boat ?

many thank's for your interst

Laurent

Hi Laurent.

I remember this one from years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx4LT3GZjlY


Brad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: DrJones on February 20, 2018, 05:19:05 PM
  I think this is important, regarding Laurent's demonstration #8:  does the device INITIALLY move to the left or right (or stationary) when first released? [/font][/size]
[/font][/size]
In several of the releases, it moves LEFT a little initially, THEN, not touched anymore, it moves to the right.  Look for example at the release which begins about 2m33sec - and you will see what I'm referring to.  These are the cases that interest me particularly and seem to show "momentum generation without observable recoil."[/font][/size]
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on February 20, 2018, 08:36:17 PM
I remember this one from years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx4LT3GZjlY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx4LT3GZjlY)


I do not know what made the boat move in the swimming pool, but I am pretty convinced (based on my experiments) that swirling dead weights in whatever way (e.g. like suggested in US4631971) will not work as an "inertial propulsion drive". And since 2014 nothing tangible came from this initiative http://www.americanantigravity.com/. One would have heard more if it really worked. These things come and then go away pretty fast. Yes, it could be a conspiracy, some men in black erasing all inertial drives ever invented. But this is even more far fetched than the inertial drives themselves.

For me gyroscopes still pose a mystery and Laurent made me restart experiments with his replication of the Fiala patent. Most probably it will not work either but it is interesting to investigate. At least I will understand gyroscopes better.

Greetings, Conrad

 

Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on February 20, 2018, 10:50:28 PM
Hi all

to Tinman

Hi Brad  i think that the boat you linked is a thornson device which is rotating dead mass , not gyros ,so far i now. and i don't now if that system can exhibit some gyro property as it seems to go forward on the water.

to Steven jones

Yes you are a very good observer, and M. Fiala in the patent explain the slight back movement before the stronger forward movement.

To conrad

Don't be so sceptic it is very bad for the health. And please go forward in your research that's make happy even if we fail.

To all

my latest try. A lot to test for the near future.

https://youtu.be/1Grv5B7AqkE

hope this helps
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on February 21, 2018, 12:20:33 AM
Please watch this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im2mNnWZ5Oc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im2mNnWZ5Oc)

It is not from me, I found it by chance on YouTube, but I think it has something to do with the Fiala patent. Gyroscopes are very interesting and hard to explain.

I gather from the above video that there is a difference between turning a dead weight or a gyroscope in a circle. The gyroscope will want to "nod" and a dead weight does not "nod". And the gyroscope "nods" if only a very slight turning movement is initiated. Therefor I think Fiala only needs a a very slight lifting with his rail.


@Laurent: your latest video "inertial propulsion with gyroscope part 9" is a very clever modification. If you watch the video which I mention above, you will see that it only takes a very slight turning movement to make the gyroscope "nod". Therefore the Fiala device could may be work with only a very slight turning back and forth, as you do in your latest experiment. I hope that I will be able to do all that with my stepper motor design. But building something is so much work, I just have collected some components which I am going to use.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: DrJones on February 21, 2018, 05:02:50 AM
  I also enjoyed the latest video, #9.  Clever modification!   Was that idea yours - or was it in the original patent?  [/size]

[/size]
Also, I especially like the sequence beginning about 1m14s where the device goes back a little, then untouched accelerates forward (to the right in the video).[/size]
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: DrJones on February 21, 2018, 05:15:01 AM
  There are several ideas out there for inertial propulsion...  I like Laurent's clear demonstrations the best. 


For the record, though, I would show this approach from China:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUf4EG8tFE8&t=151s
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 21, 2018, 05:44:43 AM
@conrad


That’s silly.....   “one would have heard”
The only ones that would have heard would possibly
be scientists studying inertial propulsion.
And people like myself that went to live demonstrations.
The one I was referring to was in the 80’s
not sure if it made it onto the internet, as it predates
the internet. (we were still using the bbs system)


Inertial drive research was, at the time, mostly restricted to
to NASA and LNL researchers.
The demo I was invited to was a NASA team, and the boat was a toy
in a pond. 
The rotating weight had an arm that was able to extend at a portion of its
rotation, then retract shortly after.
Allowing it to transfer centrifugal force in a linear direction.
Like swirling a weight on a string, then jolting your arm forward
as the string passed in front of you.
Was a solid arm, not a string, but the analogy is valid.
Similar to catching a sling-shot projectile, shortly after it is released.

Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 21, 2018, 05:46:53 AM
The problem I have with all this conjecture
Is the fact that we have used inertial propulsion
in several areas, even in outer space.


I’m trying to understand where people are coming from
when they say things like “that’s not possible”
There’s nothing in physics that says it is not possible.



Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on February 21, 2018, 11:03:28 AM
sm0ky2 wrote: I’m trying to understand where people are coming from when they say things like “that’s not possible” There’s nothing in physics that says it is not possible

Well, there is something in physics and it is called conservation of linear momentum and conservation of angular momentum. And all experiments and observations so far have shown that this two conservation laws hold in a closed system.

What does this mean: linear momentum and angular momentum are two different properties of a moving object and one can not be turned into the other because each one is conserved (does not disappear and can only be transferred from an object to another).


All physics is based on experiments and observations. You can believe these experiments and observation (if they are carefully done and peer reviewed) or you may not.

If you do not believe then you should show experiments and observations which prove your point. So far nobody could conclusively show a transformation of linear momentum into an angular momentum or the other way round in a closed system.


So far it always was not a closed system. The angular moment was not transformed into a linear moment, the linear moment came from "outside" (was imparted on the system by interacting with its surroundings). And in space, freely floating, an object can be considered as a closed system, but not on earth.


If there is something in space (like the ether or dark matter) one could possibly interact with that. One could turn something (angular momentum) which flings the ether (or dark matter) away and such causing linear momentum. This is then not a closed system. It would be like a propeller in water.

May be a gyroscope interacts with the ether or with dark matter or with something unknown (but nobody could observe that conclusively).


Of course you do not have to believe what I write, just study physics. Read what is known and then you know more.

By the way, I am coming from Austria. Now you even know where people are coming from when they say things like “that’s not possible”. And I met quite a lot of people in other countries who say "that's not possible". So, just look around you and you will know where people are coming from when they say things like “that’s not possible”.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 21, 2018, 12:42:48 PM
Have you ever used a sling?
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 21, 2018, 01:05:26 PM
If not, perhaps you may find the game of golf to be useful
https://www.real-world-physics-problems.com/physics-of-a-golf-swing.html (https://www.real-world-physics-problems.com/physics-of-a-golf-swing.html)


Or from a military perspective, a Trebuchet or catapult are pretty much
the same math


In Guam, children learn this in the 6th Grade
http://www.guampedia.com/lesson-plan-physics-of-a-slingstone/ (http://www.guampedia.com/lesson-plan-physics-of-a-slingstone/)





Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 21, 2018, 01:08:17 PM
Dancing or Ice Skating, you can swing your partner
and let them go


They do not fly angularly
But linear




If you understand what “angular momentum” actually is
It is a linear momentum derived from angular velocity
There is no real angular component to the momentum
Unless there is some force to keep applying the change
in angle, the object in motion will maintain a linear path.


Which is why I said this problem is Newtonian.
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on February 21, 2018, 01:10:11 PM
Have you ever used a sling?

@sm0ky2: I know it will sound arrogant, but this is not the place to give you an education in basic physics. I would have to write pages and pages to do that. You have to make the effort yourself, sorry.

I am not defending physics and I am not a teacher. I repeat trivial basic facts which you can find everywhere. Do not believe me, read up.

To say it in one sentence: if you want linear inertial propulsion you have to throw some mass away (like you do with your sling) or you have to push against something (in the surroundings).

The Fiala patent makes interesting claims and Laurent's experiments show that there is something worth while investigating. Gyroscopes a very difficult to understand and may be there are some unknown effects. But I do not believe, I try to experiment. To believe is something for church and does not help to impart inertial propulsion.

So, I do not want you to believe me, I want you to experiment. Show something, than we may have something to talk about. I believe you believe to much. I have never seen a miracle, but believers see miracles everywhere. Are there miracles? Yes, for the believer there are, and for the non-believer there are none.

Are you a believer? If yes, you live in a wonderful world. If not, life will be a little more difficult, but more interesting. And it is a lot of hard work to gain knowledge. You can not skip the hard work. Why do you think people have to study for years? Even a genius has to study for years, and may be you are just a little genius, which means very many years of study.

You have won every argument you care to win! I am the bad one, you are the good one! I know nothing, you have the divine knowledge!

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 21, 2018, 01:23:01 PM
It is Newton’s 3rd law actually
The force keeping the metal of the gyro
spinning in a circle, is it’s tensile strength
otherwise spinning it up would inertially propel
its’ pieces in linear (tangental) vectors.

Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 21, 2018, 01:30:48 PM
There’s a thing called a ‘vibrator motor’
Found inside cell phones and also found in
an ancient device, we used to call a ‘pager’


It basically shakes your device using a small DC motor.


This is done is 2 basic way:
1) an imbalanced weight is placed on the shaft
This is the preferred method, since the inertia is
distributed fairly equally in all directions.
(maybe this is the scenario you are thinking of?)


2) a notch protrudes from a balanced weight
and ‘clicks’ on a part of the frame.
This transfers the inertia in a single direction.
Some of us remember a time when our cell phones
and pagers would vibrate themselves right off the table.
This was an inertial propulsion drive.


We don’t need to “ believe”  to use physics.
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 21, 2018, 01:55:14 PM
We don’t use the second type of vibrator anymore
except in industrial machinery, to offset
vibrational imbalances in heavy rotating parts.


It was phased out for two main reasons


1) we don’t want our phones to propel themselves linearly


And


2) if you attach the motor to a variable resistor
to control the frequency,
it is basically Tesla’s Earthquake machine
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: DrJones on February 21, 2018, 06:12:09 PM
 I enjoy the discussion.  Theory vs experiment.  Classic.[/size]


Conradelektro (theory): "To say it in one sentence: if you want linear inertial propulsion you have to throw some mass away (like you do with your sling) or you have to push against something (in the surroundings)."


I have certainly heard physics professors teach this...


But then we have the challenge - try the experiment!  That's how science progresses.


sm0ky2: (experiment): "The demo I was invited to was a NASA team, and the boat was a toy in a pond.  [/font]The rotating weight had an arm that was able to extend at a portion of its rotation, then retract shortly after.Allowing it to transfer centrifugal force in a linear direction.Like swirling a weight on a string, then jolting your arm forward as the string passed in front of you.Was a solid arm, not a string, but the analogy is valid."


A physicist might prefer not to speak of "transfer centrifugal force in a linear direction."


He might use other wording.  No matter.  I would like to see that experiment performed - and may do it myself, in warmer weather (below freezing here today).

And you can bet that NASA will never release a video/explanation of their recoil-less propulsion -- at least, not until a citizen does the experiment outside the government pavilion and "spills the beans."  (IF indeed the experiment works as claimed by sm0ky.)
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on February 21, 2018, 09:58:04 PM
That is a nice gyroscope for experiments  https://www.gyroscope.com/d.asp?product=SUPER2# (https://www.gyroscope.com/d.asp?product=SUPER2#)

It comes with a DC motor which can be used to spin the gyroscope up and which will then run for several minutes. Or the DC motor can be bolted to the device for a continuous spin at about 12000 rpm.

It seems to be available.


@DrJones and sm0ky2: I am not a defender of theory, I just write what standard theory says. One has to be aware of the standard theory (which is very well established and nicely described in countless publications) in order to advance further. And humbleness is advised because it will be very difficult to beat standard theory. There is so much nonsense spoken in this forum that it is ridiculous and even a shame.

And there are only a handful of people in this forum who can do decent experiments and credible measurements. I am not such a person because my skills are limited, but I try without being deluded and I know my limits. And I try to understand standard theory before talking about great new things. Not a single thing has been credibly shown in this forum which goes beyond known theory. Just hot air and nonsense. And the loud boastful voices are the most ridiculous ones.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on February 22, 2018, 12:10:12 AM
Hi conrad

you make my day when you simply remind to all of us the concept of open system.

And perhaps the answer is that a spinning and precessing gyro can capture or other said "play" with   the supposed surrounding elements or " the ether " why not  and as you say it could be an analogy of propeller in the air.

really brain shaking this experiment !!

Will deep on this experiment for sure

Laurent

Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 22, 2018, 02:33:46 AM
@Dr jones


You are correct, I apologize, was typing too fast
And meant to say the rotational force applied to the mass
transferring in a linear direction.


The point I was trying to make is that motion is motion
it doesn’t really matter which direction we started with.
we can redirect it in any direction we choose.


We actually don’t even know which direction is which.
it’s all from our own perspective.
and the inertia has nothing to do with our perspective


It is from the perspective of the two interacting masses.
one being the rotating mass, the other being the vehicle
that it’s housed in.


Just like our vibrating pager that walks.
the same way the Orbi moves


Stand on a skateboard with a rock tied to a rope
(make sure it doesn’t fly off)


and spin it over your head
then extend your arm out in front of you as it passes
your shoulder, and retract your arm as it passes the other
quickly, jolt it


the rock wants to fly tangential-Always
the force the rope puts on the rock
is exactly like the force on a pendulum shaft
(if we negate gravity)
and the force on the support of the gyro from
axis to outer perimeter.




Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 22, 2018, 02:43:18 AM
@Conrad


One has to be careful to make distinction between theory
and assumptions made based on those theories.


And sometimes the assumptions that predecess them.


Newtonian physics has surpassed theory
and is Law.

Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 22, 2018, 02:52:19 AM
if we look at the angular momentum at any instant
we see that it is a vector
NOT a pi function


Isaac says it is linear


If we transfer some of the momentum at that instant
it is in that vector


Linear





Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 22, 2018, 03:15:53 AM
In Woopy’s device, the momentum is transferred to the shaft at
the center of rotation, through the forced precession caused by
the shape of the track.


The axis of rotation is the gimble
even though the gyro is on an arm
the gimble rotation is constant, and the
pitch, caused by the track is different than the normal
for the speed of the gyro, and rotation of the gimble.


This imparts a force on the axis.
the torque is the change in angular momentum over time.




The torque is= 4(pi^2)*moment of inertia/[1/(rpmgimble*rpmgyro)/60]
The vector a combined angle of the forced precession and the normal
angle of precession.




Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 22, 2018, 03:24:44 AM
We can see mathematically that the torque is
tilting the shaft in two directions simultaneously


what happens when we tilt a shaft in both directions?
it moves linearly......


Take it from a guy that spent waay too much time
trying to break Newton.
Even he looks wrong, from the right perspective
he is always right.

You can’t think about this from our perspective
you have to be the craft.
then to you, there is a force.


each time the gyro torque is countered by the forced
track motion (because gimble is constant) the combined
torque is perpendicular to the shaft, instead of tilting it,
it “pushes” it in the combined vector.

Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 22, 2018, 03:42:08 AM
the counter force is not in the applied vector
it is 180-degrees to each respective tilt.
you can see these oscillations, separate from
the internal linear force.


When we stand on the craft, and push the shaft
it goes nowhere, because the torque is between our feet
and the craft.


With Woopy’s device the torque is internal, on the gimble shaft.
it’s not pushing back against the craft,
(at least not completely)



Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on February 22, 2018, 11:37:10 AM
With Woopy’s device the torque is internal, on the gimbal shaft.
it’s not pushing back against the craft,
(at least not completely)

"The torque is on the gimbal shaft": This might be true, but the shaft is held by the platform and the platform runs on wheels on the table. And everything is reacting, the platform, the wheels on the table. It is by no means a "closed system".

The so called "inertial drives" (which seem to turn angular momentum into linear momentum) act against friction. Wheels have a very high friction sideways (perpendicular to the rolling direction, and specially on rails) and the "machine" pushes against this high friction. There is also considerable friction if one presses in short bursts against ball bearings perpendicular to the axle. Also twisting an axle in a ball bearing causes high friction (at the instant of the may be very short twist).

Fast spinning "machines" simply act on the air like a propeller. A gyroscope with 12000 rpm causes considerable air displacement near the spinning wheel.

It is almost impossible to create a "closed system" on earth, at least the "machine" is standing on a table or on the floor. And it is always in air. Hanging the "machine" like a pendulum is also not without additional forces like unwinding the filaments of a string or twisting at least two parallel strings. If you hang a table with four strings (each on a corner) from the ceiling it has high resistance to rotation (but swings nicely). And this fools the "inventors". (It also fooled me.) A machine in free fall from very high would be a closed system (during the fall) but it would interact strongly with air. You have to go into earth orbit (if you can afford that).

And if you add gyroscopes it becomes complicated. And with gyroscopes (as you concluded) the forces often act against axles, but the axles are held by something and this something is restricted by friction in the most unexpected directions.

Specially "vibration machines" rely on a higher friction in one direction, contrary to the perception of an onlooker.


If you spin something (e.g. on a string) and then let it fly away tangentially you have done exactly what is meant by "throwing something away to impart linear momentum". But very soon you are running out of things to throw away like a rocket runs out of fuel (which is literally thrown away at high speed through its exhaust).

There are thousands of patents for "space drives" since more than a hundred years. None ever worked. They would be tremendous and hard to suppress (because the inventor is driven by greed and every country would need it for its military or industry). So, we are up against a legion of unsuccessful inventors.

But I can not convince a believer. Believe is resistant to knowledge and learning. If we could turn believe into a real force, we would go faster than light (I believe).


Let's convince each other with good experiments! Talk is idle and cheap.

Greetings, Conrad


P.S.: My efforts are failing when I try to create a fast spinning wheel in my workshop. The problem is balance. What I have created rattles in a frightful way and endangers me (because parts could fly off in my face). I am waiting for the gyroscope mentioned above https://www.gyroscope.com/d.asp?product=SUPER2# (https://www.gyroscope.com/d.asp?product=SUPER2#). Hopefully the Brits will not leave the EU before sending the thing. They took my money without any problems.
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on February 22, 2018, 02:58:42 PM
May be some of you did not know. The Fiala patent US2011219893 and the sister patent US2009183951 were abandoned in 2015 (fees were not paid in time).

You can look up a patent at https://worldwide.espacenet.com/singleLineSearch?locale=en_EP (https://deref-gmx.net/mail/client/zj5fle4eJnU/dereferrer/?redirectUrl=https%3A%2F%2Fworldwide.espacenet.com%2FsingleLineSearch%3Flocale%3Den_EP) by inserting the patent numer in the search input field "Smart search". Once you have the patent on screen (by clicking on its title) click at (INPADOC legal status).

Looks like it was not a financial success for the three Fialas mentioned as applicants and inventors. Or the men in black got the Fialas and paid them millions to shut up or something like that (use your imagination freely).

I will put myself in danger by experimenting. I always wanted to know the men in black and I could use some millions. The man most in danger is sm0ky2 because he knows the secret of inertial drives and understands them perfectly well. Laurent is not in danger because his videos are a "defensive publication" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_publication (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_publication) ). It would not help to pay or harm Laurent because many (like me) have seen his videos. And all these viewers would have to be paid or worse. My god, hundreds have watched his videos, what a high cost or massacre that would be.

Is watching YouTube videos dangerous?

Help, somebody is knocking forcefully at my door! Helicopters a hovering over my house! I will go to my underground bunker!

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 22, 2018, 04:26:24 PM
Set the device on a floating platform on water


you could hang it from a cable, but then you are combating against gravity.


Don't confuse the other two forces of a gryo
All 3 are part of the same force.


In linear motion, all 3 forces are in a constant vector
parallel to motion


in rotational motion, the 3 forces vectors are constantly changing.
because the direction of motion is changing
This is the angle of the angular velocity of the gyro.


If we assume the gyro to be spinning at a constant velocity
then this is simply a change in angle of the other two forces.
by applying a linear force to the axis, ninety degrees to the rotation
the changing force vector on the gimble reflects the applied force proportionately
and causes the gimble to rotate
in is case, the reaction force of Newton's third law in on the gyro
the momentum of the gyro, because of its high velocity, is far greater than the gimble
so the gimble rotates


By applying a rotational force to the gimble, ninety degrees to the rotation of the gryo
the changing force vector on the axis reflects the applied gimble force proportionately
and causes the axis to tilt.


the gyro doesn't have to be attached to anything, these forces are present in every moving mass
frictional forces and wind resistance, etc. are another subject.
This is why reaction wheels can replace thrusters in satellite stabilization


The forces are internal
Yes, the gimble is attached to the vehicle
but this is also why the entire vehicle moves, not just the rotating mass
and it's support


The forces themselves are a resistance to the change in angular momentum.
remember, this is a linear momentum which changes angle over time
we don't see the force applied to the mass that changes this direction
this is "stress" on the material.
the rotating mass is pulling away from the center of rotation
if rotation is constant, this force is constant, and also changes vector over time.
(centrifugal)
the 3rd law reaction force pulls back on the rotating mass, and changes the direction
of motion to be perpendicular to the stress, and causes a change in angular velocity
(conservation of momentum)
Because the gyro is constant (or only slowing slightly, in some tests)
this is simply a change in angle.
And this stress force is internal.


If this was a point mass, rather than an evenly distributed ring,
 then the linear force applied by the angular momentum reflects itself
as a proportional force on the axis of rotation.
This is derived from the stress force, and therefore is also internal.
The craft will move.
But it will move in a vector that changes with the rotation of the gyro.
we call this vibration, but it is inertial linear propulsion.
The vectors cancel each other so 'net' movement is minimized, and in fact,
almost all of the net motion will be a result of other forces. (friction, wind, gravity, etc.)


the forces on the gimble, and axial-tilt are also derived from these internal forces
and are therefore, themselves, internal.
the reaction force is on the material, not the substrate.


Now, at a constant rotation, the forces on the gimble and tilt are proportional


with a constant gimble, the forces on the tilt (or torque) are constant.
if the tilt is on its own axis (also called a gimble, but I don't want to sound confusing)
then the change in angular momentum, caused by the tilt, is like above
the action/reaction cancel around the rotation.
Because it is always equal and opposite.


If the rotation is constant, and gimble constant, and we force a change in tilt
the same thing happens, but in a different vector.
because we are applying a force in a different vector than the force caused by
the rotation and gimble constants.
Also has an equal and opposite reaction force, but opposite to its own vector
not the vector of the normal tilt force.


Each of these action/reaction forces present themselves as a "vibration"
Whereas the propulsion force is in the combined vector.
This is reflected as an increase in current through the gimble motor
when the arm reaches the incline, and a decrease in current when the arm
declines.


this is a change in angular momentum, from the applied tilt, to the normal tilt.
if the gimble were not held constant, it would simply change the gimble
But we are holding gimble constant with the motor, so it translates to tilt.
The force in the combined vector is perpendicular to the tilt.
And is also internal, derived from the stress.
almost 100%  of the force is on the rotating mass.


the forces on the gimble and tilt are because the mass is connected to them.
Otherwise the rotating mass would spin and roll like a ball in free space.
The internal stress force would still be present between the center of rotation and the mass.
Gimble and tilt would still occur, because the forces are internal.
When we attach the gimble to a fixed axis, the linear force of the angular momentum
translators to the axis and whatever it's mounted to


Consider the vibrations of the imbalanced spinning weight
We see these internal forces cause motion of the entire construct.
By force the vector of these forces to be in a desired direction
We have inertial propulsion.
This is why the pager walks off the table
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 22, 2018, 04:42:12 PM
I don't think the "mib"'s view me as a threat
Or they would have nabbed me up long ago....


It is more likely, that if the mibs exist, or anything like that, they would just assimilate the
data stream. (Like Rex research does)


Which appears to be the case if you look at the Eric Jacqmain story
and a few other things that have happened here, that end up as military tech.


Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on February 22, 2018, 05:36:06 PM
Very instructive video which will teach you a lot if you allow to be instructed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHGKIzCcVa0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHGKIzCcVa0)

The guy appearing in the video is an annoying smartass but he explains well. It is always annoying to be told the truth, the miracles disappear.

Some more videos of interest for the Fiala patent fans:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrGfc-3uv7o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrGfc-3uv7o) (basic principle of gyroscope like the annoying video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGun5athdfg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGun5athdfg)  (two gyroscopes on the same axle, instructive)


*************************************************************************************

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldqUV-DXiUg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldqUV-DXiUg) (almost the Fiala patent, you have to watch this, so, if you turn the thing in one direction there is no additional load on the support platform but in the other direction there is more weight on the support platform, hence the difference in friction on the ground if you put it on wheels, hence the forward movement, but in space it will not work, still I will investigate because I will get exactly the gyroscope from this video)

*************************************************************************************


@sm0ky2: please do not watch these videos they are too unsettling for a believer, do not jeopardise your hard gained belief. Specially the video which is almost the Fiala patent is off limits for you. Faith is something precious. Have faith, salvation is near.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 22, 2018, 06:17:45 PM
I designed a simple demo device to show a more direct transfer of inertia
from a rotating weight, to the structure that holds it.
From the inertial frame of either the rotating mass, or the housing
there is an applied force.
In this case, it is an elastic collision.


Which more closely resembles our pager.
There is actually two devices in one machine
So I will first show one operating,
Then both, to demonstrate a method of combining two vectors into another vector
to direct the momentum in a linear form.
This is very similar to what happens in the gyro
And when the glue dries, I'll have a simple device that can show this.
Then I can set up some tests using different substrates,
wheels, balls, water, etc.


Another simple test you could try at home:
Is to place an arm with a weight to a D.C. Motor with an easy to throw switch.
Attach this to an object with 360-degrees of freedom
Like the plate on balls
When the motor is ran up and switched off, observe.
Turn it back on, switch it off again


Put a throttle on it, observe as you quickly change the speed.
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on February 22, 2018, 10:35:33 PM
Hi all

To smoky

Thank's for your interest and very intense explanation, but could you please insert some drawing or picture of what you are describing, because it seems to be very clear in your mind, but sadly i can not enter in your mind to see  what you describe .

to conrad

So you had ordered this High precision gyro from England. I tried some time ago and it was out of stock.

Just for info in this video (long and boring at 36'  ) https://youtu.be/sy8znYK8EXg M. Fiala himself shows a device that uses the very same gyro on a small apparatus which is probably described on Fig 47 of the patent.

I have tried this fig 47 device and it works well .

Concerning the 12000 rpm of this gyro , it is not necessary at all. My gyro spin much much lower speed. And remember , the faster they spin the stronger the precession, and if in the precession phase the gyro touches the mechanical (up and down) limitation all the effect is lost, and you get a shaking machine which goes back and forth without horizontal displacement. Not easy at all to get this device running correctly.

I am on a double opposite 45 degres device.

But i fear the MIB, i have looked for a good but cheap bunker at Banggood china but they have not currently. Can you pleeeaaase give me the adress of of your bunker retailor in Austria.

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 22, 2018, 11:01:30 PM
Like this?



Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 22, 2018, 11:07:14 PM
Consider the M in the drawing to be the part
of your device where the track dips down.


And notice the direction of the force indicated
by the black arrow v
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 22, 2018, 11:11:22 PM
You will also notice the time delay of the transfer of inertia
and how this detracts from the opposite impulse when the
track goes back up.
If you narrow that distance, you should see the momentum
carry through even stronger.
Strengthening the forward impulse,
and weakening further the backwards impulse.

Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 22, 2018, 11:14:14 PM
increasing the height of up/down motion
will also have a beneficial effect, to a maximum
then will become less beneficial the more you angle it.


Ideally, you want the lowest point to place the axis perpendicular
to the surface it sits on.
so the gimble-arm rotates horizontally and the gyro is vertical.
When it rises up, it tilts the axis
then drops back to horizontal
that way 100% of the impulse is horizontal.


Tuning both of these parameters
can help you improve your device



Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 22, 2018, 11:21:36 PM
If it drops at an angle, it will still work


https://youtu.be/4foY5r2TMOo (https://youtu.be/4foY5r2TMOo)


just not as well
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on February 23, 2018, 12:42:12 AM
to conrad

So you had ordered this High precision gyro from England. I tried some time ago and it was out of stock.

Just for info in this video (long and boring at 36'  ) https://youtu.be/sy8znYK8EXg (https://youtu.be/sy8znYK8EXg) M. Fiala himself shows a device that uses the very same gyro on a small apparatus which is probably described on Fig 47 of the patent.

I have tried this fig 47 device and it works well .

Concerning the 12000 rpm of this gyro , it is not necessary at all. My gyro spin much much lower speed. And remember , the faster they spin the stronger the precession, and if in the precession phase the gyro touches the mechanical (up and down) limitation all the effect is lost, and you get a shaking machine which goes back and forth without horizontal displacement. Not easy at all to get this device running correctly.

I am on a double opposite 45 degres device.

But i fear the MIB, i have looked for a good but cheap bunker at Banggood china but they have not currently. Can you pleeeaaase give me the adress of of your bunker retailor in Austria.

Laurent


Laurent, thank you for the tips, that really helps and encourages me to keep building my own gyroscope. I am looking forward to your future devices and tests. I am a slow builder (a bit lazy), so patience please.


I like Harvey Fiala, great person and he made a great video, not boring at all for me because I like extraordinary personages. There is a little Freud hiding in me. This is also the reason why I hang around in this forum, really non normal people everywhere.


Fig. 47 looks good.


My take on Fiala's device: the higher the rpm of the gyroscope the shorter the way one has to move it along its circular track. I plan now to move the arm which carries the gyroscope with a solenoid only for a few millimeters (only for a few degrees along its circular track), but very fast so that the gyroscope shoots up (precesses) at a steep angle. The circular track (only an imaginary one) is inclined a bit, so that the arm carrying the gyroscope will come back to the original position by itself (by gravity). And of course, eventually one needs a second arm with a gyroscope for balance. May be that is nonsense, but I want to try it.


See, an inertial drive only really works if you can make the force stronger and weaker at will. Strong force  <->  fast short movement of the arm (only a few degrees or millimeters) and high rpm of the gyroscope which causes a very steep precession. Weaker force <-> long slow movement of the arm (up to 180 degrees) and lower rpm of the gyroscope which causes a gentle very low precession (in the Fiala device Fig. 1 or Fig. 2 or Fig. 47 the precession is only 2° to 5°). It also means that you have understood it. (If there is something to understand.)


My motor shield is here, also a little DC motor speed control board.


A reliable bunker builder from Vienna (which has many recommendations from highly placed persons in Austria, I only mention Mr. Short, Mr. FromBell or the ex Mr. Pip, if you get the hint) will contact you shortly. Unfortunately it will not be in the Banggood price range. But with your future YouTube revenue you will be able to afford the best bunker money can buy. And you will need it. Every secret service of the world will want to get to your devices and to the master builder himself making them a reality.[/size]


Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on February 23, 2018, 11:23:39 PM
hi all

sorry but i can't wait to show you  this , i( bad video because the transmission system broke and i could not redo a better video, so stay tuned
https://youtu.be/B68hP7d0Ajc

So with a twin and opposite spinning system the  sideward forces can be contained and so  maintaining a forward displacement direction

more details these next days


good night at all

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 24, 2018, 06:04:31 AM
“rowing gravity”


Nice work!
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 24, 2018, 06:08:51 AM
Fiala explains that placing a second gyro, 180-degrees
out of phase eliminates the reverse impulse
and provides a more continuous forward inertia


Increasing this to 4 gyros, increases the acceleration
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on February 24, 2018, 08:50:40 PM
Laurent, your latest thingy (videos part 9 and 9.5) is impressive.

I will start with a two gyroscope contraption, but my gyroscopes have not arrived yet. I gave up building my own gyroscope, because I want to spin them up to around 10.000 rpm with a DC motor which is not part of the platform which should move. I will spin up the gyroscopes by holding a DC motor to them (with a rubber wheel) and then they should spin a few minutes. Not very handy but easier to build. On the moving platform will be a power supply for the arduino and the two stepper two motors (rechargeable batteries).

My very old test (more than 10 years ago) moved two dead weights with two stepper motors (which was not a success). Now I want to do about the same with two gyroscopes.
See here for the old test http://overunity.com/17573/inertial-propulsion-with-gyroscope/msg516671/#msg516671 (http://overunity.com/17573/inertial-propulsion-with-gyroscope/msg516671/#msg516671) , http://overunity.com/17573/inertial-propulsion-with-gyroscope/msg516626/#msg516626 (http://overunity.com/17573/inertial-propulsion-with-gyroscope/msg516626/#msg516626)

I attach some photos of parts which I will use.


I want to test whether the gyroscopes have to move freely some part of their movement (along the circular track) or can they (their arms) be "guided" by the stepper motors? It is also interesting how long the circular path has to be for optimal performance?


In Laurent's latest tests (part 9) the gyroscopes move back and forth (not a complete cycle). I suspect that this back and forth movement can be rather short (just a few degrees) than long. An other guess is that the movement should be done as fast as possible.

When the gyroscopes move forth they should precess upwards and on the back movement they should precess downwards. And both movement should be forced by the stepper motor to generate precession (no free movement as in Laurent's machines). But I am most likely wrong, this thing is counter intuitive.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 24, 2018, 09:15:38 PM
Direction of precession and axial tilts are dependent upon rotational direction
Two oppositely spun gyros will precess in opposite directions with the same tilt.

Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on February 24, 2018, 10:14:53 PM
Direction of precession and axial tilts are dependent upon rotational direction
Two oppositely spun gyros will precess in opposite directions with the same tilt.

@sm0ky2: Thank you for the hint. I want to do about the same what the person is doing in his video by hand (starting from minute 6 on) with a stepper motor. The stepper motor will replace the center (the horizontally turning thing with the black wheel holding the rod leading to the gyroscope) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldqUV-DXiUg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldqUV-DXiUg)

I mentioned the video already in a previous post. There are many good videos on YouTube about the behavior of a gyroscope. Of course there are also a lot of bad videos about "space drives" based on gyroscopes. Hopefully you will be able to select the instructive ones.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on February 24, 2018, 10:31:03 PM
Hi all

and finally the part 10 of my video serie on "inertial propulsion with gyroscope"

https://youtu.be/MjoyPU5t2ys

I think i cannot make much more, because as i already said i am not a propellor seller, and to me these video are a confirmation of the expectation of Prof. Eric Laithwaite.

If you put 2 gyros (a twin) system in opposition , you get a perfectly straight forward movement. All the sideward forces are in counter action and it stays only the forward displacement.

So now there are always the vertical forces and they are also asymetric, so for a totally perfect system you need another twin system inverted , to counteract the said vertical forces.

Finally this sytem works with gravity, SO IT IS USELESS in the space.

But perhaps (almost sure) if i add some spring to mimic the gravity it will also work in space.

I have to phone to Ellon Musk.

Good night at all

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on February 24, 2018, 11:32:42 PM
Hi all

and finally the part 10 of my video serie on "inertial propulsion with gyroscope"

https://youtu.be/MjoyPU5t2ys (https://youtu.be/MjoyPU5t2ys)

I think i cannot make much more, because as i already said i am not a propellor seller, and to me these video are a confirmation of the expectation of Prof. Eric Laithwaite.

If you put 2 gyros (a twin) system in opposition , you get a perfectly straight forward movement. All the sideward forces are in counter action and it stays only the forward displacement.

So now there are always the vertical forces and they are also asymetric, so for a totally perfect system you need another twin system inverted , to counteract the said vertical forces.

Finally this sytem works with gravity, SO IT IS USELESS in the space.

But perhaps (almost sure) if i add some spring to mimic the gravity it will also work in space.

Laurent

@Laurent: Thank you for showing your machines and thereby avoiding the usual "I do not show you my multi million dollar invention". The machine in part 10 is wonderful, full of ideas and good craftsmanship. Only one DC-motor and no control circuit (besides the speed control).

Your latest video suggests that my stepper motor version will work and that a full circle movement of the gyros is not necessary. Your tests help me a lot because I do not have to redo your whole series of builds. I can step directly to the point where you get the best result.

I am not yet convinced that it will work in space, but I think it is worthwhile to do further tests (at least for me it is worthwhile).

Speculation: In the direction when the axle engages the guides (the speed up phase) the gyros precess upwards and should not put more weight on the wagon. But on the way back, when gravity gets them, more weight is put on the wagon, hence the wheels have more friction (more roll friction and more friction for the little bearing balls in the wheels).

Watch this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldqUV-DXiUg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldqUV-DXiUg) from minute 6 on when the person has it on scales. He demonstrates the "no additional weight" and "more weight" depending on the direction of the precssion.

Laurent, maybe you can put your part 10 machine on the swing you showed in part 6 and 7. Also an ordinary swing like the ones for children could be interesting because your latest machine produces thrust in one direction (hopefully not also in the other direction). If the children swing stays permanently away from its rest position, it would be a god indication of real unidirectional net thrust. Since your gyros move back and forth air friction should cancel itself, unless the fast spin of the gyros causes air displacement in one direction. You can test this by only spinning the gyros (no back and forth movement) on the children swing.

My scepticism is not directed against Laurent's marvelous builds, I just speculate and try to find tests which give more clues. There are thousands of contraptions with gyros alleged to be space drives but none could convince a broader public. If we put conspiracy aside, it indicates that we are up against a century of deluded ideas. But may be Laurent is the man to show it to the world.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 25, 2018, 01:06:22 AM
Gyros for propulsion and inertial-reference are already employed by most space agencies.
They have completely replaced fueled thrusters.


There are several gyros in the new cubesats
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on February 25, 2018, 11:52:08 AM
Gyros for propulsion and inertial-reference are already employed by most space agencies.
They have completely replaced fueled thrusters.

There are several gyros in the new cubesats


@sm0ky2: the gyroscopes in the space probes are all for == ROTATING == the probes, not for linear propulsion. Are you kidding or does this crucial fact escape your attention? You must be making jokes just to lead everyone on a fool's journey. I will not answer to your posts any more because you can't be serious.


Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 25, 2018, 12:20:50 PM

There are three types of gyros used to control spacecraft
And no they do not act as linear propulsion
But one type does propel (indirectly)
As I will explain


First, there is a sensing gyro used for inertial reference.
This tells the spacecraft information about its absolute motion.


Secondly, is the control-moment gyro, this handles rotation of the craft


And 3rd are a group of reaction-wheel gyros that control the crafts motion
This is done by rotating the craft about perpendicular axes,
The most common configuration uses 4 reaction wheels
To ‘walk’ the craft in desired direction, by turning it from one corner
then the next, like we do with large heavy boxes.
By spinning up a weight then changing its speed, it provides rotational torque
to the craft along one or more desired axis. This is how they keep from falling
to earth, without the use of rockets.
It is much more than just “spinning”.



Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on February 25, 2018, 12:49:37 PM
How it is done in space (only rotation or attitude control): https://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/legacy/files/Spinning_World.pdf (https://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/legacy/files/Spinning_World.pdf)

The "walking" only works on earth because the corners or edges of the cube experience friction on the surface where the cube "walks": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_6p-1J551Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_6p-1J551Y)

If you want to move a spacecraft into a higher orbit, you need a rocket type thingy (you have to throw away mass). With gyros or reaction wheels (unbalanced gyros) alone the spacecraft (orbiting a planet) will fall out of the sky on your head to teach you a lesson.

Please stop the nonsense, it is not funny any more. But it is my own fault that I let myself been drawn into a fool's discourse. But you annoy me and I can barely hold myself back from being angry (a failure on my part) but I am only human. You have succeeded with your stupid agitation, I got agitated. What a success, you can annoy someone, congratulation, what a feat. This must make your day.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 25, 2018, 05:36:09 PM
Tell that to NASA or the ESA


I’m not the one you need to convince


The use of gyros to stabilize orbit saves them trillions a year in sending fuel
to space to maintain satellites and the ISS

The fact that these are not falling to earth
is self-evident


Of course “walking” a cube on a flat plane in gravity
is much different than an object on 3 dimensional space
I was using that as an analogy for the way it actually works


Your anger is based on a preconceived set of knowledge
And is similar to the violence caused during the crusades.

Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 25, 2018, 06:28:05 PM
https://youtu.be/EXnqTtZ5pW0 (https://youtu.be/EXnqTtZ5pW0)
Basic intro


https://youtu.be/AmrUxEAKQI0 (https://youtu.be/AmrUxEAKQI0)
How an SPM is used to Maintain orbit
 (not changing altitude, but maintaining it)
                       ^L
This offsets a great deal of fuel cost for low-drag craft
Greater the drag, the greater the loss in velocity
This loss can only be offset by acceleration, which uses rockets.
SPM maneuvers alter the trajectory to maintain the orbital plane
Which is similar to a gravitational assist.
The SPM uses conservation of momentum to maintain
the orbital plane.


https://youtu.be/E4hf5N5VgHc (https://youtu.be/E4hf5N5VgHc)
(Time stamp 26:20)
Turning, rotating, pointing (attitude)
                                          ^T


https://youtu.be/n896_JvWxVE (https://youtu.be/n896_JvWxVE)
Advanced mathematical simulation




To increase velocity or change altitude
engines must be used
https://youtu.be/pTydlh8ifoA (https://youtu.be/pTydlh8ifoA)





Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on February 25, 2018, 10:05:20 PM
The stepper motors are mounted on a platform 0.6 meters wide and 0.3 metres long. The platform is ungainly wide because I want to rotate the two arms with the gyroscopes also 360° and not only a short way back and forth, just to test all possibilities. The platform will be put on a frame with wheels or suspended like a swing, possibly also be put on a little boat.

Hopefully I will get my first gyroscope tomorrow.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on February 25, 2018, 10:37:47 PM
Quote
https://youtu.be/AmrUxEAKQI0 (https://youtu.be/AmrUxEAKQI0)
How an SPM is used to Maintain orbit
(not changing altitude, but maintaining it)

This offsets a great deal of fuel cost for low-drag craft[/size]Greater the drag, the greater the loss in velocity This loss can only be offset by acceleration, which uses rockets.SPM maneuvers alter the trajectory to maintain the orbital plane which is similar to a gravitational assist. The SPM uses conservation of momentum to maintain the orbital plane.

This is not for maintaining altitude, it is for a stable alignment (the right attitude not altitude). No thrust in flight direction, just angular movement. Yes, it reduces fuel cost, because no fuel has to be spent for attitude control (which is done with the reaction wheels). And with the sentence "This loss (caused by drag) can only be offset by acceleration, which uses rockets." you finally write the truth.

If the spacecraft has a profile which offers less surface to be hit by molecules in earth orbit when it is aligned in flight direction, then this alignment helps to reduce drag. But this drag reduction has nothing to do with generating a thrust or additional movement in the flight direction.
 
Quote
To increase velocity or change altitude
engines must be used
https://youtu.be/pTydlh8ifoA (https://youtu.be/pTydlh8ifoA)

And exactly that is my point (and I do not know what your point is, just rumbling I guess, maybe you just want to sound clever by writing everywhere in this forum, you are an awful spammer, please go to the flat earth crowd and stay there). Increasing or decreasing velocity of a spacecraft cannot be done with gyroscopes or reaction wheels (unbalanced gyroscopes). And all "inventors" since the beginning of the patent system never could come up with a gyroscope based thruster that could change the velocity of a spacecraft. May be there is a way, but nobody could so far provide convincing proof. Let's keep that in mind. And current theory (preservation of angular and linear momentum) says that too.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on February 26, 2018, 10:21:03 PM
Hi all

for info i tested the double gyro on the suspended wheel with the monotoron kevlar thread , (because as the device is quite heavy plus the counter weight, the ball bearing is not fluid enough in rotation   )it works well with a weak but steady acceleration. I just say this machine is a pain because i have broke almost everything during my testing. The last test was with the system completely vertically (no more 45 degrees inclination)

I think it is time now to investigate what is going on here. So i imagine to try to isolate each "special behavior" of the gyro with different experiments.

For today i wanted to test the difference of the centrifugal force, between a dead mass (gyro stopped) and  the gyro spinning and rotating but the precession is "contained" the gyro can not raise (it rotate on a planar path). So to mimic the swing on the Fiala device.

Because as you have perhaps observed in the test on the substrate and marbles (part eight ) , the device drift on the right side (down screen) when the gyro location during the swing is on the opposite side. So the centrifugla force should propell the device on the left (upscreen). But not at all.

So video should provide an explanation because it seems that the gyro and the dead mass as a completely different behaviour concerning the centrifugal force.

https://youtu.be/7xZoMDKsJR0

hope this helps

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 26, 2018, 11:52:23 PM
The centrifugal force of the gyro, in its own plane of rotation
Because it rotates as at a much faster speed
Is much greater than the weight of the gyro slowly rotating
in the plane of the arm.
It overpowers the smaller force



Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on February 27, 2018, 12:35:09 AM

So video should provide an explanation because it seems that the gyro and the dead mass as a completely different behaviour concerning the centrifugal force.

https://youtu.be/7xZoMDKsJR0 (https://youtu.be/7xZoMDKsJR0)

hope this helps

Laurent

@Laurent: your part 11 is very instructive, I did not know that (different behaviour of dead weights and gyros).

I attach a drawing which shows what I want to test first. The spinning gyros should be turned like I indicate in the drawing. It has to be done with stepper motors and microprocessor control. I did that with dead weights (about 12 years ago) and it did not work. Maybe it works with spinning gyros because this is what Fiala suggests in his patent. Also you observed that the turning speeds up when the axle of the gyro engages the track and slows down on the other half cycle (or on the way back with the"rowing machine" of your part 10).

The "rowing" that your machine does in part 10 is mechanically simpler to implement than a full circle but might not be optimal. But I will also test the "rowing".

We will see once I can do my tests, but it is a lot of work to build something. Till now I could attach one gyro to its stepper motor.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: TinselKoala on February 27, 2018, 02:51:43 AM
Conrad: You are on the verge of discovering something _very_ interesting indeed, and I don't mean stick-slip friction.

Your stepper motor should be capable of driving the gyro in "forced precession", that is, driving around the vertical axis faster than it would normally precess. This will make the gyro climb up in the nod axis. The stepper motor will feel the weight of the gyro as it nods upwards. If you incorporate a travel stop such that the gyro nods up and hits this stop and cannot nod up further.... the stepper motor no longer will feel the weight of the gyro. If you have your stepper motor driver set to a constant speed, the power to drive the motor should go down, as long as the nodding gyro is up against the upper travel stop. If the motor can accelerate here, it will. It is as if the weight of the gyro vanishes, as long as the setup is turning faster than its normal precession speed with gyro nodding downwards.  It's easier to see this effect if there is a one-way clutch bearing where the nod arm connects to the stepper shaft, so that the gyro and arm can coast while the stepper is stopped.

Here's a shot of an apparatus constructed to explore this remarkable effect:

Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on February 27, 2018, 12:37:08 PM
Conrad: You are on the verge of discovering something _very_ interesting indeed, and I don't mean stick-slip friction.

Your stepper motor should be capable of driving the gyro in "forced precession", that is, driving around the vertical axis faster than it would normally precess. This will make the gyro climb up in the nod axis. The stepper motor will feel the weight of the gyro as it nods upwards. If you incorporate a travel stop such that the gyro nods up and hits this stop and cannot nod up further.... the stepper motor no longer will feel the weight of the gyro. If you have your stepper motor driver set to a constant speed, the power to drive the motor should go down, as long as the nodding gyro is up against the upper travel stop. If the motor can accelerate here, it will. It is as if the weight of the gyro vanishes, as long as the setup is turning faster than its normal precession speed with gyro nodding downwards.  It's easier to see this effect if there is a one-way clutch bearing where the nod arm connects to the stepper shaft, so that the gyro and arm can coast while the stepper is stopped.

Here's a shot of an apparatus constructed to explore this remarkable effect:

@TinselKoala: Thank you for the information, it helps a lot and will give my future tests some direction. It is always a great help if knowledge or test results are shared. The next experimenter can step on the shoulders of the previous one to avoid the errors of the past. It is also great that Laurent is openly sharing his tests. No one can become rich with a "space drive". Even if something would work, no individual could bear the costs and complexity of development and specially space tests. As the world goes the wrong people will get rich in the end.

Yesterday I played a bit with my set up by spinning up the gyro with a Dremel tool and turning the stepper motor by hand.

Observations:

- As you say, I observed the climbing up and down of the gyro in the nod axis. One has to turn the gyro faster and faster as the gyro spins down to make it climb (nod).

- One has to turn the stepper motor faster than the normal procession speed of the gyro to make it nod up. On the other hand, one has to slow down below the normal procession speed to make the gyro nod down (up and down depends on the spin direction of the gyro).

- A great riddle for me is the "travel stop" issue (and the alleged apparent disappearing or increasing of the weight of the gyro). Imagine that one has the gyro on an arm rigidly fixed to the stepper motor axis (as I did with dead weights some years ago). This would mean "travel stops" on top and below the gyro in your diction, which would keep the gyro from nodding up and down. Fiala says in his patent that the gyro only needs to nod a few degrees. And I guess that this slight nod is only necessary to engage the "track" for propulsion on one half circle (speeding up) and for disengaging the track on the second half circle (breaking).

So, do we need the nodding at all? Can one rigidly fix the gyros to the stepper motors (with a simple arm clamped to the axis of the stepper motor) and do everything by accelerating and decelerating the stepper motors in the right way? That would be great because it simplifies the mechanical set up enormously and one could build a compact "space drive" with four stepper motors (even only with two stepper motors with the axle protruding on both sides) and four gyros.

If the "rowing" (including the rigid mount of the gyros) works, it would further simplify the mechanical set up, because the power lines for the gyros could be implemented without sliding contacts (simply wires which can move a bit). I have to find out how NASA keeps the four gyros or reaction wheels (in the attitude control mechanism) spinning. How do they lead electrical power to the gyros (to their electric motors) on the gimbals? Sliding contacts like brushes in a DC motor?

Well, much to test an to find out. Yesterday I spoke with a friend who studied mechanics and he claimed that he even calculated the precession forces of gyroscopes at university. Once I posed the "rigidly fixed gyros" question, he was surprised and clueless (he never thought of that). There still are riddles in the gyroscopes. Maybe it is my lack of knowledge in this area and I suspect that all space faring nations had explored gyroscopes extensively because a replacement for rockets would be the the door to the heavens. Image a spacecraft with photovoltaic panels driving gyros with electric motors. If such a vehicle could produce forward thrust it could go everywhere in the solar system without fuel (the electricity coming from the sun via the photovoltaic panels). And to go away from the sun to interstellar space one could use an atomic reactor (producing heat) and Peltier elements for electricity production. Well, countless "inventors" have dreamt about this for a hundred years, it is a trivial idea.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 27, 2018, 04:49:26 PM
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19710022895.pdf (https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19710022895.pdf)


Nod control can be important as well
Achievable through an additional motor
3 dimensions of force
Each integrated into the other two
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 27, 2018, 05:35:57 PM
Using a quantity derived from the vectored moment of inertia, a universal constant,
the vectored gravitational force, and the rate of change in angular velocity:


An equation can be set up such that


Gyration= tilt/precession


When tilt and/or precession are forced in such a way that the gyration side of the equation
decreases in magnitude
The gyro will slow its spin in perfect accordance with the mathematical model.


We see clearly through this analysis, that the precession and tilt forces are decreasing the
rate of gyration (slowing down the gyro)
There is no anomalous energy being created, since both tilt and precession are a direct transfer
of momentum from the gyrating mass.


In many set-ups this is not something you can easily observe, since the rate of change in the gyros
rotation is comparably small. we can however, observe differences in the "run down" time.
By plotting these across a series of tests, we see the proportional relationship above.


With precision control of the 3-axis gimble, we can control the arc path of the axis in 3-d space.


As we decrease the change in the path in a single dimension,
(meaning the arc-circumferential distance of the path that is changing)
while increasing the velocity
along that path, the force becomes increasingly linear.
If we do the same while decreasing the velocity, the vector is reversed.


The opposite is true, when we increase the change in path
increasing the velocity in that path, our would-be linear force becomes an increasing number
of vectored forces, which cancel with the vector of our desired force.
Decreasing the velocity does the same, but in the opposite vector.


From this is derived the second proportional relationship, that says:


Change in path / change in velocity = magnitude of the chance / change in T
(T here being the period of the change in path)


These relationships define the change in direction and velocity of the gyrating mass
in each of the three gimbled axes.
When we know the torque added by the motors
We can split this out, and we see that total momentum of the gyrating mass is conserved.
Not conserved for us, because we have motors that can add more momentum.


Expanding the equations to include the Newtonian force, we can define the transfer of
momentum from one gimbled axis to the other two.
We can further simplify this equation as it pertains to the added torque
(+ or - torque cause by our motors in their respective axis)


to derive a proportional relationship between the change in the
absolute angular velocity of the gyrating mass
and the change in angular velocity in each of the 3 gimbles
as a factor of applied motor torque (increase or decrease)





Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on February 27, 2018, 05:38:56 PM
Hi conrad

Super the montage, i hope it will offer you the max of possibilites to go forward.

As you can see, i have suppressed the video part 11 and replace it by a part 12

The reason is that i have redo the test, but with a much better gyro and a stable cart (no wobling + electric wire very free to move) and on a substrate very smooth. And i cannot detect a difference between the gyro spinning or not. So this device is really tricky and fooling, but you are a very good worker so i don't make too much worry for your results.

The good thing of this is that it seems to confirm that M. Fiala is right when he say that a spinning and rotating gyro if he cannot precess vertically (it is forced to rotate on a planar path), keep all it's inertia. Now why my device is drifting to the right on the marbles stays mystery, perhaps a slightly difference in the ball bearing or else ?

So i made the part 12  on a balance. The gyro is always in constrain precession (forced on a planar path rotation) and we can see that it exhibit a very strong torque able to inverse what should be . Very unintuitiv. Is it only the gyroscopic torque or is it something to do with what M. Laithwaite named "mass transfer" ? I don't know .

https://youtu.be/Qs07aj_ZWj8 (https://youtu.be/Qs07aj_ZWj8)

Now how can we test if the gyro looses inertia and angular momentum when he can precess freely (after the free fall). Perhaps and hopefully your stepper motors will offer an answer



Hi TK

Very nice build, any video to see it working ?

Laurent

Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 27, 2018, 06:54:27 PM
Using the knowledge of these relationships
We can set-up a controlled 3-axis gimble system
Wherein 3 identical motors control the rotation of 3 identical masses
And by variable resistance, control the speed of their rotation


Old Atari style gaming joysticks are designed in a way
where we can implement the varying resistance
(in almost 50% of complete control)
And by including a switchable inversion circuit, handle the opposite 50%
of the vectors from the perspective of our inertial plane.


A "pilot" in the center of these gimbles experiences a linear force
the vector of which is a combination of the vectored force on each gimbled axis
in response to the resistance of the current to the drive motors, at that instant.


in a training simulation, the gimbles axes are fixed in space.
However, in free space, the axes feel the same forces felt by the pilot,
who is also rotating, but to each their respective magnitude and vector.
The combination of which applies a vectored force to the entire mass.


The simulation trains the pilots to stabilize the combined vectored forces
to control free-fall spin in a gravitational field.
In the real shuttles, this gimble control was replaced with
areal rutter systems, similar to those found in fighter jets.


This allows this allows the pilot to apply force to the axes of rotation
in each of the 3 dimensions, with respect to the pilots reference plane.
The goal being to stabilize the craft.


If the goal was the opposite, it's a matter or further training
we can learn by the same system to apply a vectored force on each of the 3 axes
and cause a force to be applied to the mounted the device is attached to.
This causes wear on the system in the mounted version, in the vector of the applied
force.


In the free space example, is force is applied to the rotating mass, in that vector.


One such machine is on public display in the space center in Houston, Tx.
On occasion, you can observe an elected participant or a youth in one of the space
programs, operating the simulator.


On even rarer occasion, you meet someone who has become good at it.
And they can describe to you how the whole machine tries to rip itself off in
each of the 3 directions as they try to orient themselves upright to their surroundings

Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on February 27, 2018, 07:11:59 PM
Hi conrad

i reread your post concerning the very small vertical precession freedom in the Fiala description. It can be effectively very small almost touching the track but to me  it is mandatory.

And i would add that if you observe my video in general, it seems that the ratio of duration of the traction part to the free precessing part is about 1/2.

Si i will try to "force" the traction  on a portion of the track and then help the free precession back (same distance), but 2 time slower. If you see what i mean.

And i am looking for a servo  or stepper motor, linear solenoid or anything which could rotate half a turn , or push a certain distance in a certain time and back 2 time faster.

Any idea

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 27, 2018, 07:15:38 PM
The point of this being, that these proportional relationships hold true
wether in Newtonian mechanics, or the full expanded version in a Hamiltonian space.


Another proportional relationship can be established between the magnitude of the vectored forces
and the rotating mass, with respect to each gimbled axis.
By increasing or decreasing the masses rotating about each gimble, we can cause
each of the 3 forces increase or decrease in magnitude.


By increasing the radius about the axis of rotation, we proportionately increase the
torque applied to the respective axis.

Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 27, 2018, 07:27:37 PM
Hi conrad

i reread your post concerning the very small vertical precession freedom in the Fiala description. It can be effectively very small almost touching the track but to me  it is mandatory.

And i would add that if you observe my video in general, it seems that the ratio of duration of the traction part to the free precessing part is about 1/2.

Si i will try to "force" the traction  on a portion of the track and then help the free precession back (same distance), but 2 time slower. If you see what i mean.

And i am looking for a servo  or stepper motor, linear solenoid or anything which could rotate half a turn , or push a certain distance in a certain time and back 2 time faster.

Any idea

Laurent


With a bit of programming a computer hard drive motor and circuit
could be used to perform the desired function.


Another option would be to control a similar stepper motor with a less complex IC chip.
and a small circuit.
The 555 can be usd with a few circuits to do this.
there are better ways to do this but I'm not the best to ask.
So I offer this as an example
Mine would handle it differently, other people would engineer a better control circuit
https://circuitdigest.com/electronic-circuits/stepper-motor-driver (https://circuitdigest.com/electronic-circuits/stepper-motor-driver)


The basic idea being to supply a current to the motor for a duration of time
that gives the appropriate "steps" in the proper direction for what you are trying to do.


The same circuit can be modified to handle a D.C. Motor, and wormgear on an arc-track
placed some distance along the arm.
Though this method restricts certain forces which get translated to the mounts of the actuator.
These may or may not be the forces you are attempting to harness.
So I would avoid that option,  but really depends on your design.





Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on February 27, 2018, 08:49:09 PM
Hi conrad

i reread your post concerning the very small vertical precession freedom in the Fiala description. It can be effectively very small almost touching the track but to me  it is mandatory.

And i would add that if you observe my video in general, it seems that the ratio of duration of the traction part to the free precessing part is about 1/2.

Si i will try to "force" the traction  on a portion of the track and then help the free precession back (same distance), but 2 time slower. If you see what i mean.

And i am looking for a servo  or stepper motor, linear solenoid or anything which could rotate half a turn , or push a certain distance in a certain time and back 2 time faster.

Any idea

Laurent

@Laurent: I looked into all three things (solenoid, servo or stepper motor).

Solenoid: you could do your machine which was inclined with a solenoid. The solenoid pushes the gyro on the arm up the inclined track very fast and then it falls back down the incline to the resting position by gravity. But the solenoid gives you practically only one speed (very fast).
https://www.conrad.at/de/hubmagnet-selbsthaltend-2-n-12-n-12-vdc-12-w-ebe-group-k10sl-503714.html (https://www.conrad.at/de/hubmagnet-selbsthaltend-2-n-12-n-12-vdc-12-w-ebe-group-k10sl-503714.html) (I have similar solenoids of different strength and size, push and pull, but I gave up on the idea).
 
Servo: A servo basically gives you also only one turning speed. You could use the servo like a solenoid for a push (arm with gyro moves) up the incline and then again a free fall down the incline. You could easily adjust the length of the push with a servo, which would be nice. And the best way to control a servo is again with an Arduino (you will NOT need a motor shield). I also gave up this idea.


Stepper Motor: This is the only motor I know for precise turning speed, turning direction and position control. The bummer is the programming. A stepper motor needs a rather complicated program (with interrupt handling at least for the "home" position sensor) to make it do interesting movements. The adafruit motor shield with an Arduino Uno Rev3 gives you a rather cheap programming means (about EUR 60.-- and for EUR 12.-- you get a decent stepper motor). The stepper motor is also a power hog (1 to 2 Ampere each), which means a lot of batteries on the moving platform. And of course the big question: are you into programming? Everybody can learn programming, but how much time do you want to spend on the learning effort? I can give you the program, but it has to be adjusted to your stepper motors and for each specific test, maybe frequent redesigns are necessary if things do not work as expected. So, stepper motors are the way forward, but do you do programming? Although I did system engineering level programming in industrial control for seven years (and have an informatics and mathematics background) I will still spend countless hours on the program till it works as intended. But maybe I am a brain dwarf and I also have become a slow old man.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 27, 2018, 09:59:39 PM
IC’s allow for a more simplistic stepper motor control


Especially if you only need a few steps


You can time it with a sensor input, photosensor, reed switch, etc.
mechanical switch or what have you, to allow for multiple events
with a degree of synchronization.


The IC can be used to create a timed event in a cycle
or in response to an input to one of its pins.
Or both if you wanted to.


You can tell it to deliver a pulse of x for time T1
and a pulse of -2x for time T2
where x is whatever voltage and current you are using.


All this is done with the prefabricated gates and switches
built into the integrated circuit. This takes the software out of it.
You just connect the pins the way you need them
and supply the appropriate input powers.

If you want to use software control there is no need to
write your own software.


Hard drive control modules can be used.
The code is already there for us.
Sort of fill in the blank location that handles
both 360-degrees of rotation in tiny tiny increments
with extreme accuracy
but also the radial distance from the axis
It’s already set up for complete arc-radial control.


There’s a built-in speed function
and most of the rest of the code can be cut out


we can remove the additional hardware and attach our
devices directly to the motor.
Has a pretty large footprint and more inertial mass
and probably more power requirements than just an IC
But any way you go with that will require an advanced chip
memory storage and higher power requirements.
And possibly knowledge of software engineering.
Seems like the extra package of an old hard drive
could be worth carrying, for the time may save.












Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on February 28, 2018, 01:09:35 AM
@Laurent: your part 12 video is great (clever test) and it taught me something new (at least new for me). It is also instructive that the gyroscope must have a minimum high turning speed in order to exhibit its strangeness in a real world contraption. I learn very much from your videos and it makes my replication more directed in the right research direction. You are the forerunner into the wilderness paving a way for me and others to follow.

I uploaded a video to my YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ObaUz8sqkY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ObaUz8sqkY) (it is just idle talk, a presentation of the components that go into my replication, nothing moves yet)

I just learned that it is not a good idea to upload a 4K video to YouTube, it takes ages. But YouTube will present the 4K quality version if you have a high speed internet connection. (I use the Panasonic HC-VX989 Camcorder which I like a lot. For its price of about EUR 560.-- it offers a lot. But some smartphones can now do similar quality videos.)

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 28, 2018, 02:41:41 AM
E^2 = (mvc^2) + (mc^2)^2 = (mgh)^2


This is the brief moment when the see saw goes neither up nor down
> or < defines the up/down condition




Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on February 28, 2018, 09:38:42 AM
Hi conrad

very well done video, and i can't wait to see the progress. I will learn also a lot for sure.

Thank's also for your propositions for the stepper motor. I have found in my drawer an old freeduino v1.16 and a arduino MEGA 2560. i will probably have to order the motor shield.

Will have a visit to the arduino retailor.

And out of topic you made my day when i have seen your video on the boyancy wheel. Very clever and so simple.


Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on February 28, 2018, 11:10:53 AM

Thank's also for your propositions for the stepper motor. I have found in my drawer an old freeduino v1.16 and a arduino MEGA 2560. i will probably have to order the motor shield.

Will have a visit to the arduino retailor.


There are some Arduino Motor Shields and a lot of different Arduinos out there in the world and in drawers of enthusiasts. One has to investigate which works with which. I once bought the Arduino Due, but was annoyed by several compatibility problems specially with libraries. Now I use the Arduino Uno REV3 (only EUR 21.--). The Uno was always the most widely used Arduino and therefore most things (shields, libraries) worked with it.

You can now program the Arduino with the web browser https://create.arduino.cc/ (https://create.arduino.cc/) . The library for the Adafruit Motor Shield V2.3 is #include <Adafruit_MotorShield.h> . Once I am confident that my Arduino Program works, I will of course share it with whoever wants it. If you harm yourself or if you become rich or if the men in black come to you is then your problem.

The Adfafruit Motor Shield V2.3 should work with the following Arduinos: cited from https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-motor-shield-v2-for-arduino/faq (https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-motor-shield-v2-for-arduino/faq)

==============================================================
What Arduinos is this shield compatible with?

It is tested to work with Duemilanove, Diecimila, Uno (all revisions), Leonardo and Mega/ADK R3 and higher.

It can work with Mega R2 and lower if you solder a jumper wire from the shield's SDA pin to Digital 20 and the SCL pin to Digital 21

For use with the Due or other 3.3v processors, you must configure the board for 3.3v logic levels. Find the set of 3 pads labeled "Logic". Cut the small trace between the center pad and 5v and add a jumper from 3.3v to the center.
==============================================================
#include <Adafruit_MotorShield.h>
Adafruit Motor Shield V2 Library library (written for ANY architecture) supports:

101, Adafruit Circuit Playground, Adafruit Circuit Playground Express, Due, Duemilanove, Esplora, Ethernet, Industrial 101, Intel x86 Boards, Intel x86_64 Boards / IoT Gateways, Leonardo, Leonardo ETH, LilyPad Arduino, LilyPad USB, Linino One, littleBits w6 Module (Leonardo), M0, M0 Pro, Mega ADK, Mega or Mega 2560, Micro, Mini, MKR FOX 1200, MKR GSM 1400, MKR WAN 1300, MKR1000, MKRZERO, Nano, Primo, Primo Core, Pro or Pro Mini, Robot, Star OTTO, Tian, Uno, Uno WiFi, UP² Board, Windows 10 IoT Core, Yún, Yún Mini, Zero
================================================================================


For powering the Arduino on a spacecraft I use the following AA battery or AA rechargeable battery box:
https://www.amazon.de/dp/B078HDGBJC/ref=pe_3044161_189395811_TE_dp_1 (https://www.amazon.de/dp/B078HDGBJC/ref=pe_3044161_189395811_TE_dp_1)
It might be a problem to power the stepper motors from the same batteries (if power for the motor shield comes via the Arduino) because the stepper motors might draw too much and the Arduino resets because of a brownout (Voltage drops too much). So, the stepper motors (the motor shield) might need their own batteries. A lot of batteries on a spacecraft, that is why it has to stay on earth for now.
I have not yet looked into the rechargeable LiPo accu packs, which might be much smaller (but more expensive and one needs a different charger).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on March 01, 2018, 12:18:17 AM
Hi conrad

So much thank's for the usefull infos.

Tonight i tried different tracting guiding track's shapes on my vertical device .

And it seems that this shape is of utmost importance, because the last one seems to let the "twin rowing gyros device" climb on a very very little slope better than the Fiala monorotor flat rotating did .

So it seems that a forced precession (steper motor) should be probably even better

but with those gyros behaviour, who knows

Laurent




Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on March 01, 2018, 11:23:24 AM
Tonight i tried different tracting guiding track's shapes on my vertical device .

And it seems that this shape is of utmost importance, because the last one seems to let the "twin rowing gyros device" climb on a very very little slope better than the Fiala monorotor flat rotating did .

So it seems that a forced precession (steper motor) should be probably even better


The shape of the tracks or "control rings" of the Fiala device (according to Figures 1 to 11, 41, 45 to 49, 51, 52 of US2011219893A1) is important because they have a very strong influence on the acceleration of the arm (carrying the gyroscope) on its circular path. The tracks allow to use the gyroscope motor also as a propelling means on the circular path. But the acceleration on the circular path has many parameters which are hard to control: friction of the axle (or roller) on the track, shape of the track, rotation speed of the axel (or roller).


My idea was to gain better control of this acceleration (and deceleration) by using a stepper motor. The drawback is the need for program control (microprocessor). Nowadays everything is program controlled (even your electric toothbrush), but it can be a problem for the layman or for someone only trained in mechanics (and not electronics).


The big question (as I often said) is whether the precession of the gyroscope (the "nodding") has to be controlled (or guided) as well? I hope not, Laurent feels that it has to be done (and he is the only one with practical experience so far, besides Mr. Harvey Fiala).


Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on March 01, 2018, 12:22:27 PM

The shape of the tracks or "control rings" of the Fiala device (according to Figures 1 to 11, 41, 45 to 49, 51, 52 of US2011219893A1) is important because they have a very strong influence on the acceleration of the arm (carrying the gyroscope) on its circular path. The tracks allow to use the gyroscope motor also as a propelling means on the circular path. But the acceleration on the circular path has many parameters which are hard to control: friction of the axle (or roller) on the track, shape of the track, rotation speed of the axel (or roller).


My idea was to gain better control of this acceleration (and deceleration) by using a stepper motor. The drawback is the need for program control (microprocessor). Nowadays everything is program controlled (even your electric toothbrush), but it can be a problem for the layman or for someone only trained in mechanics (and not electronics).


The big question (as I often said) is whether the precession of the gyroscope (the "nodding") has to be controlled (or guided) as well? I hope not, Laurent feels that it has to be done (and he is the only one with practical experience so far, besides Mr. Harvey Fiala).


Greetings, Conrad

Hi conrad

This morning i stumble upon this mechanical system
https://youtu.be/ESBYdJx8X7k
It seems that depending on the axles distance and lever lenght, it is possible to get different ratio back and forth. So with a arduino to control the speed of the servo or stepper motor ?

Another test with my vertical twin gyro, i glued  a  vulcaning band on the track to see if a better grip  could improve the already good motorizing swing
And not at all. The device don't move forward any more and swing much less.
So my conclusion is that the gravity pushes the pendulum gyro faster than the rotating traction wheel does. So without the grip band the "traction wheel is no more a traction wheel and simply slide along the guiding track. So perhaps i should add a small ballbearing to help this sliding.
It seems that the vertical setup is no more a Fiala flat system at all.
So once more the rectilinear and fast motorizing swing may be horizontal or 45deg or vertical or perhaps also more than vertical and even totally negativ . fantastic.

Sofar i think have understood a bit.

Now the free precessing back track ?

I have spent long minutes to observe the device rolling on the table
For info  my new guiding track let the gyro almost "free falling" inward just after   6 o'clock of the rectilinear pendulum swing. So at about 7 o'clock the gyros are always in the swing translation but not guided so they precess brutally "inward" and they even touch each  other ( nice little cling) before entering the loooong way back in free precession up to the starting point before the new swing.
During this way back there is 1 or 2 "nutation"and during these nutations ,it seems that the rolling speed of the entire device varies a little bit.

And that i don't understand at all

You say tricky those gyros !!

ok let's go for other observations and test

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 01, 2018, 01:12:24 PM
If you look at Woopy’s first devices
you can see the effect of the “nodding”
or axial-tilt


the force propagates in the direction along the length of the arm
(more accurately tangentially to where the gyro was swinging moments earlier)
the force is instigated by the change in tilt (the nod)
there is a reverse to this when it “nods”  (tilts) upwards again.
in Woopy’s set-up this reverse impulse is less pronounced due to the forward
momentum given to the device during the forward impulse.


Understand that the force on the axis is always present.
any change in rotation about either of the 3 gimbles creates a change in force
on the other 2


the force we are talking about is the tilt
or 3rd gimble


When the tilt occurs and is stopped
the linear force is in the direction of the tilt.


To make an analogy, place a see-saw or similar lever vertical
On a cart (wheels or such)
With the lever actuating in the direction of motion
by applying force to the top of the lever, it tilts in that direction.
When it reaches its maximum displacement and stops - the applied force
pushes the cart forward.
Apply force to tilt the lever back the other way, when it stops the force pushes
the cart backwards.


This is similar to what the gyro does.


We can observe these forces further still in a rotating disk on a horizontal plane
with small a imbalance in the disk mass distribution
if the axle doesn’t give, the device will hop,skip,and jump
as the disk tries to tilt at its axis
in this example the 2nd and 3nd axes are acting together as one
because there are no gimbles, the motion is cooperative against the horizontal rotation
The linear forces in this example are multidirectional and so there is no ‘net’ linear vector
it may move around but it’s not “going anywhere”


It is important to understand that distinction
to manifest the forces in a linear path, we have to transfer the forces opposing this path
into the other two axes.
Otherwise, the forces cancel each other out.


Think of having a slice of pi pie (the sides for a V)
And on the outer curvature of the slice we have two corners
one is the up tilt event, the other is the down tilt event
Each corner is off the horizontal by some degree
the magnitude of this displacement and the length of curvature
over which the displacement occurs
gives us the combined vector of the linear force
In either direction


It doesn’t matter which gimble you start with
The force can be traced by following the 3 Step process
(the transition of momentum along the 3 axes)


Rotation as observed in one plane (in one of the 3 dimensions)
when a change in applied force occurs, a tangential force is placed on the axis
90-degrees to that force.
Subsequently, an equal and opposite force (to the applied change) is placed
on the axis that experiences the force.
This is why a gyro can ‘stabalize’ itself in free space
and holds itself up against gravitational force by resisting tilt
(through precession)




And it is like this on each of the 3 axes, from any perspective.
(taking into consideration the masses and angular velocities appropriately)


You cannot change one without creating a change in the other two.
And momentum is conserved throughout.


In effect, we are vectoring the momentum of the rotating gyro.
the changes we make to both of the other two axes, facilitate this change
in the vector of the angular momentum.







Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on March 01, 2018, 06:08:31 PM
This morning i stumble upon this mechanical system
https://youtu.be/ESBYdJx8X7k (https://youtu.be/ESBYdJx8X7k)
It seems that depending on the axles distance and lever length, it is possible to get different ratio back and forth. So with a arduino to control the speed of the servo or stepper motor ?

Nice mechanical solution, but not easy to build. The drawback, nothing can be adjusted (besides changing levers) to test different speeds.

Quote
Another test with my vertical twin gyro, i glued  a  vulcaning band on the track to see if a better grip  could improve the already good motorizing swing
And not at all. The device don't move forward any more and swing much less.
So my conclusion is that the gravity pushes the pendulum gyro faster than the rotating traction wheel does. So without the grip band the "traction wheel is no more a traction wheel and simply slide along the guiding track. So perhaps i should add a small ballbearing to help this sliding.
It seems that the vertical setup is no more a Fiala flat system at all.
So once more the rectilinear and fast motorizing swing may be horizontal or 45deg or vertical or perhaps also more than vertical and even totally negativ . fantastic.

Sofar i think have understood a bit.

Now the free precessing back track ?

I have spent long minutes to observe the device rolling on the table
For info  my new guiding track let the gyro almost "free falling" inward just after   6 o'clock of the rectilinear pendulum swing. So at about 7 o'clock the gyros are always in the swing translation but not guided so they precess brutally "inward" and they even touch each  other ( nice little cling) before entering the loooong way back in free precession up to the starting point before the new swing.
During this way back there is 1 or 2 "nutation"and during these nutations ,it seems that the rolling speed of the entire device varies a little bit.

And that i don't understand at all

The reason why everything is very mysterious is that nobody seems to know what effect one has to go after. (Sorry, sm0ky2 knows of course, he knows everything.) One has to isolate the effect and then one can design a system that takes full advantage of it. Unfortunately it is possible that there is no useful effect, just a back and forth movement if friction is taken away. But it is worthwhile to investigate, at least one will understand the gyroscope better.

I got the very nice gyroscope from the UK https://www.gyroscope.com/d.asp?product=SUPER2 (https://www.gyroscope.com/d.asp?product=SUPER2) and played with it (just with my hands and the rod which comes with it screwed into one side). I could turn it a bit like it will be turned by a stepper motor. Because the gyroscope spins very fast (really about 12.000 rpm) it wants to precess very strongly. Even if the stepper motor would move it only a few degrees it will precess from the horizontal position immediately almost straight up to a vertical position. Therefore I suspect that precession has to be prohibited like in the Fiala device (where the tracks do that). Just speculation, but one sees and feels that more easily with a fast spinning gyroscope where the precession force is strong. In fact, surprisingly strong if one never had a fast spinning gyroscope in one's hand before.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 01, 2018, 08:01:36 PM
The mechanics are defined by Newton


And as it specifically applies to gyroscopes, they were completely
defined by Eric Laithwaite


The problem was, he made one outrageous claim which ended his career in a nasty way
And now everyone seems to ignore the science


There's really no need to pretend we don't know what's going on here.
Even NASA has webpages devoted to teaching how these things work


A little applied science can save you endless hours of experimenting with the infinite parameters
In an attempt to gain a desired effect


I did not invent the gyro
Nor did I create the math we use to describe it.
You Too can learn science!
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 01, 2018, 08:29:41 PM
To exhibit a net force, that is one exerted on the machine that is not canceled around 360
in a single axis of rotation:


The applied force AND the responsive force must be constricted.
That is the forces at play at the other two axes
One being rotational in one plane (90 degrees to the first):precession
and the other being rotation in the other plane (also 90-degrees to the first):tilt


Because of our designs, at least one of those planes is likely to be inhibited by construct.
This is generally chosen to be tilt, but we can invert the situation and see that tilt is the
same as precession, when not constricted. (we instead restrict the other)


In fact, the forces felt in precession, from applied force in tilting plane
Is the quantity of force applied against that plane,
and the quantity of force applied to the acceleration in the other plane
When combined, these two are the quantity of force applied against the rotating mass.
In general, this is opposite the rotational velocity of the gyro. (not explicitly)
And will slow the gyro down.


The actual force is applied to a finite point, center of the axis of rotation in the first plane.
The magnitude of this applied force, which is linear in nature but changing over time, and
as such is defined by a time dependent angular acceleration.
The magnitude of this force is proportional to the distance from this point.
by extending the axis of rotation, we are applying "leverage" to the assembly.
This moves the force outside the center of mass of the gyro.


When perfectly in the center, the linear forces cancel each other out exactly.
In all 46,656,000 directions.
This is one definition of the word "gyration"
Similar to Vibration, but applied in 3-dimensional space.
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 01, 2018, 08:39:38 PM
When we apply a force to one axis,
The force force in turn applied to the other axis,
 by a factor of the mass and velocity of the gyro


A heavy gyro at very high speeds will amplify the applied force
at the cost of some of its angular momentum


In the center point of view, this is a direct transfer of momentum.
In our assembly, this is an applied torque, on the rotational axis
proportional to its' length. (note this length also affects the velocity of the rotation)


Also affected is the force, and the time we must apply it, to the axis.
A very long tilt axis, for example, we can apply less force to create the same precessional force.
At the cost of having to exert that force over a longer distance.
This follows the rules of Archimedean Leverage.


Fiction affects our designs, and it should be importantly noted a difference between friction
and restriction of motion.
While friction does restrict the motion, other associated losses add a different force applied
opposite to the precession, which translates to forces applied opposite to tilt.
It's a 3-way street.



Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 01, 2018, 08:54:25 PM
Now is where the fun part begins, if you have followed up to this point:::


Applying a force to one axis, amplifies this force as rotation in the other axis.
(taking some momentum from the gyro)
This adds momentum in the direction of rotation in the precessional plane.
If we now stop the precession, this amplifies it again, back to the tilt plane.


And vice versa if we switch our perspective of the planes.


Tilt and precession are the same thing, in essence it is the inertial response of trying
to stop the gyro from the center of itself, by applying a perpendicular force.
Since the gyro is rotating, the vector of the reactive force is changing over time.
This force is applied to the axis 90-degrees from the applied.


If a gyro were allowed to wobble in such a way that the motion of one axis forms a double-cone
And the circles made at the base of the cones (outer ends of the axis) we made to turn two
flywheels, we store the energy of the gyro, split between two other gyros.
Once the gyro stops spinning, the machine reverses, only this time drains itself of all momentum into the environment. (gravity, friction, wind resistance, etc.)
As the flywheels run down.


In Woopy's see-saw model, we see this happening in a similar manner.
The momentum of the gyro is bled off to fight the gravitational force on the tilt axis.
When the motion is not constricted (i.e. when the level is able to actuate) gravity acting
on the precession causes tilt force, amplified by the angular momentum contributed from the gyro.
This lifts the weight of the gyro and see-saw platform, or rather applies torque to the mount.
Sufficient to lift it
When the angular momentum of the gyro has decreased enough, the force of gravity and the force
of tilt as the gyration response, equal out and the see-saw stays level.
It drops even further, and gravity wins completely.



Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 01, 2018, 09:00:07 PM
If Woopy restricts the precession in the right way, while the tilt is restricted at the top
of the see-saw mechanism
The force will translate linearly, when it goes up
And in the opposite direction when it goes down.


If allowed freedom, the device should oscillate back and forth.
By allowing different degrees of freedom and restricting some
we can vector this force, more in the desired direction.


This is what is done by the original rotating device.
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 01, 2018, 09:06:03 PM
This mechanism Woopy found
https://youtu.be/ESBYdJx8X7k (https://youtu.be/ESBYdJx8X7k)


Could be used to extend the precessional arm
at the right moment, and transfer the momentum
in that direction.


(it is a combined vector of all the linear vectors of the force in the arc of extension)


That is the operating principal of the gyro-boat


With tilt completely restricted, the force is directly on the axis.
By extending the arm, we change th velocity of precession.
It can't instantly accelerate the mass and so the extension slows the rotation.
this is the "applied force"
The reactive force is on the tilt axis, which cannot tilt.
this is designed to be primarily in one direction, or one small arc of vectors, that sum
to the one.

Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 01, 2018, 09:31:42 PM
Where arm is retracted, the precession will accelerate,
if this acceleration is then restricted, and tilt is restricted,
acceleration is in the plane of rotation of the gyro.
(in free space this leads to a questionable situation we have not tested)


This is one of only two situations that mathematically allow this.


The other can be demonstrated on a tabletop version by tilting the gyro
restricting tilt and precession, and applying a force, which speeds the gyro.


This is opposite of the mechanism by which precession and tilt are exhibited.


The spinning mass wants to be left alone in its plane of rotation.
Any change to this plane, causes an opposing force. Momentum is conserved.
We like to break things down into our reference of 3-d.
But the gyro sees 46.656 million directions of its rotational mass.
Each one is affected differently at each instant, based on the angular velocity of the mass,
and it's mass (and it's rest mass and c in the expanded view)


By controlling which of these directions (from the perspective of the gyro) that we affect by
our applied force, we vector the response force on the perpendicular axis in a desired direction.
This is a combination of the instantaneous force vectors and magnitudes over the time of our
change in applied force.
When considered in each of the two perpendicular axes (from the perspective of the gyro)
we can determine the summed vector and force applied to the assembly during the time of the change.





Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 01, 2018, 09:36:17 PM
We see by this model, that in the twin swinging pendulum gyros
much of the linear force is pointed downward.
The sum of the force vectors during the time of the change of tilt with respect to precession


Only some of the force is in the desired direction.
much is being sent to the table.
To fix this may become a gravitational issue.
But a slight angle may help to realize the mechanism,
without too much detriment.

Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 01, 2018, 09:48:13 PM
What many people have trouble realizing
if the difference between force and momentum.
While momentum can present itself as a force when it interacts
they are not the same thing.


In the same note, force can create momentum.
Which is then conserved, whether the force is conserved or not.


Changes in momentum can result in a force greater than the counterforce of that which
caused the change.


If the original horizontal track were oriented perfectly 180-degrees with the up/down tilt
we would have equal and opposite forces at play.
By narrowing one side, and expanding the other, the forces are dispersed differently
on one side, than the other.
And the counter forces at play during the time of the change (up or down)
change in vector.
By expanding or contracting the duration and magnitude of the change
we are changing the magnitude and vector of the reactive forces.


Restriction changes the axis, as well as applying the multiplication factor of the gyro

Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on March 02, 2018, 11:43:56 AM
Hi conrad

Very nice gyro and you know what, you are very lucky to get one  because they are already out of sock and if you want one you have to preorder. Big succes thi gyro.

Today is also a good day, because i made a new test with my vertical device and the new track and without the grip band.

So i remake the suspended wheel andthis time i made a triple parallel kevlar monotoron of only 35 cm lenght. So strong enough to support the wobling of the device.

then i put the device on and wait until the swing are optimised and stable.
Then i pusched slightly the suspended wheel BACKWARDS to see what happen.

The device goes very slowly bacwards slows down and at about 3/4 of backwards turn it stops and very slowly goes forwards

so the results

turn 1 in 1 minute and 43 sec

turn 2   53 sec

turn 3  43 sec

turn 4  34 sec

turn  5  31 sec

turn 6  29 sec

stop because the monotoron is winding up

voila

Laurent

Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on March 02, 2018, 01:16:57 PM
Very nice gyro and you know what, you are very lucky to get one  because they are already out of sock and if you want one you have to preorder. Big succes thi gyro.

They have 36 more ready today or Monday https://www.gyroscope.com/d.asp?product=SUPER2 (https://www.gyroscope.com/d.asp?product=SUPER2)[/color][/font]

After inspecting and testing the one I got, I ordered a second one. One needs two gyroscopes to build something symmetrical. These wonderful gyroscopes can be mounted with the motor or without it. They also have free tap holes for mounting.


It is difficult to get reasonably priced gyroscopes.

The cheap version (only EUR 9.--) is such a thing (see attched photo, I got two and will do my first build and tests with them): https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B000X4FSH8/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3JWKAKR8XB7XF&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B000X4FSH8/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3JWKAKR8XB7XF&psc=1)  One has to spin it up with a Dremel tool and it slows down rapidly (high speed no longer than one minute, then it runs down with much reduced speed for longer). This gyroscope is also not as balanced as one would wish. For first tests and for gaining experience with a build they do nicely. Once I know a bit what I am up against (specially how strong the stepper motors have to be) I will build something with the Super Precision Gyroscopes from Great Britain.


It will be a longish project, so be patient, or try to build something yourself. Talking is easy (look how over productive sm0ky2 is, a world class bull shitter), building is difficult. And especially difficult is to build something "non secret" which everybody can see and judge. I know, everything is already known about gyroscopes. Or is it? At least there is a lot I do not know about gyroscopes. What do you really know (not just imagine to know)?

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on March 02, 2018, 02:29:38 PM
Today is also a good day, because i made a new test with my vertical device and the new track and without the grip band.

So i remake the suspended wheel andthis time i made a triple parallel kevlar monotoron of only 35 cm lenght. So strong enough to support the wobling of the device.

then i put the device on and wait until the swing are optimised and stable.
Then i pusched slightly the suspended wheel BACKWARDS to see what happen.

The device goes very slowly bacwards slows down and at about 3/4 of backwards turn it stops and very slowly goes forwards

so the results

turn 1 in 1 minute and 43 sec

turn 2   53 sec

turn 3  43 sec

turn 4  34 sec

turn  5  31 sec

turn 6  29 sec

stop because the monotoron is winding up

Your device should not do that, hard to explain. (I hope the men in black are not watching.)

Since the motor which turns the gyroscope also causes the back and forth movement (rowing) it is impossible to test your set up (your device hanging with the kevlar string) with a "non turning" gyroscope (the gyroscope would then be a dead weight).

I would like to see whether the effect (the slow turns) is cause by the arm "rowing" in air (like a slow propeller). I guess this is not happening, but would be nice to test.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on March 02, 2018, 11:57:45 PM
Your device should not do that, hard to explain. (I hope the men in black are not watching.)

Since the motor which turns the gyroscope also causes the back and forth movement (rowing) it is impossible to test your set up (your device hanging with the kevlar string) with a "non turning" gyroscope (the gyroscope would then be a dead weight).

I would like to see whether the effect (the slow turns) is cause by the arm "rowing" in air (like a slow propeller). I guess this is not happening, but would be nice to test.

Greetings, Conrad

Hi conrad

Just received the first parts of my bunker today, very impressive work and i should receive the ad hoc weapons  these next days, because i bought the whole combo,  but i am not allowed to say details and price because NDA sorry.

So far i will  not modify this device because it works fine as it is and i will keep it as a comparison with further version.

so i am sampling  other matos to rebuild a second device which could be activated by forced precession ( nor sure usefull on this earth) and also add more lateral separating distance between  the 2 gyros  so they can " INWARD free fall" much more without bumping against each other just before entering the precession phase.

I am almost sure that the transition between the constrained precession (track guided swing )  and its liberation (free-fall ) to free precession is the thing we have to look into if we want to crack the impossible.

Laurent


Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on March 03, 2018, 12:12:23 AM
I am almost sure that the transition between the constrained precession (track guided swing )  and its liberation to free precession is the thing we have to look into if we want to crack the impossible.

Laurent, please look at the attached drawing, is this what you mean?


I suspect that one has to constrain precession in the acceleration phase to keep the arm (which carries the gyro) from going vertical pretty fast. "Hand tests" showed me that the arm carrying a fast spinning gyroscope precesses immediately into the vertical position if the arm is only nudged a bit (only moved a few degrees away from 0° in my attached drawing).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on March 03, 2018, 12:44:39 AM

Laurent, please look at the attached drawing, is this what you mean?


Greetings, Conrad

At the "top speed" of your drawing  it must be a kind of DETACHED event that i name the "free fall" or liberation, where the gyro changes  it's status of pure inertial mass into a NOTHING THING sorry but it  puzzle me a lot but so far i have no other explanation.

I am trying to isolate this phenomenon with different experiment, but not so easy.

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on March 03, 2018, 12:06:53 PM
At the "top speed" of your drawing  it must be a kind of DETACHED event that i name the "free fall" or liberation, where the gyro changes  it's status of pure inertial mass into a NOTHING THING sorry but it  puzzle me a lot but so far i have no other explanation.

I am trying to isolate this phenomenon with different experiment, but not so easy.

Laurent

I conrad

I will try to sequence your drawing

"top speed" is 12 0'clock
"accelerate is    3
"stop is             6
"decelerate" is  9

A-
between 6 and 12 this is the swing which inertially (pendulum mode) produces the forward push. Your device should move down the screen.
Analyse:
during this sequence the gyro is spinning and is angularly rotated and in full acceleration, so it precess as a crazy, producing a monster torque (but for nothing else that destroying the cheap chinese ballbearing of the gyro ,it happens to me twice already).
So the gyro desperatly tries to raise up but it cannot because there is the guiding track or anything else which "strongly constrain" this tentative. The matos must be rock solid and not wobbling during the swing.

So what seems to happen is that the gyro keep is inertial angular capacity and i am not sure that the full centrifugal force is still there.
Because on part 8, the device don't drift to the left, as it should do if the centrifugal force would be fully there.

To check this point i have made a montage with my 360 servo and on the arm, tubing, i inserting a second tubing which can slide along the arm. On this sliding tube i have installed the gyro. Result when not spinning, the gyro slide immediately to the end of the arm, and by spinning fast, it does not. I will redo this experiment with small roller for the sliding support because perhaps the gyroscopic torque is so strong that the sliding (perfectly adapted and oiled) tubing is perhaps too much in friction. So no conclusion on this point. But leave the door open for such a possbility.

B-
At 12, there is the liberation of the constrained precession. (just for info on my flat Fiala device , i liberate at 1 o'clock seems better )
Analyse:
The gyro "jump"in the air and sharply slows down(between 12 and 11) but it will not go straight up because at this moment the stepper motor should stop motorizing instantly in order to not force the precession faster than the natural gravity action.
On my  flat device the tracting wheel "free fall" and liberate the gyro and no more tracts.
on my vertical twin device i have modified the guiding track so the gyro can "free fall" inward.and make a long curve back for the next swing.
For your steppermotor  system i wonder how you can get this liberation without disconnecting (detaching) the motor from the gyro (perhaps a mechanical clutch as per ICE starter) or a super fine stepping programmation.

And i insist, sofar i know, there should be NO mean to limit this natural precession, or the effect is killed immediately
For info on my vertical device the only fact that, if the swing is too strong,  the gyro can touch (percute) each other, decrease drastically the efficiency.

C-
Between 11 and 6, there is the big mystery,

Analyse:
 the gyro narturally precess freely and nutate (wave movement) and i cannot say if there is a decrease of speed rotation. So not sure that there is a deceleration between 11 and 6.

To check this point i think we could sequence the video part 8 or part 6. How can we do this with the computer ?

What we also see clearly in part 8 that during the nutation the substrate also slightly waves siwardwards

But the puzzling thing here is that during this sequence, the gyro does something that should not happen on this earth. It seems to lose some of something, so it becomes almost nothing in term of inertial forces. You see what i mean. Yes so what it is? I do not even dare to write what i vaguely suppose because the Haarp protection dom of my bunker is out of stock and will be delivered later.

And to check this point i have not yet found an experiment. Any idea.

D-
Between 6 and 5 the gyro is sharply reaccelerated and we volontarily kill the free precession effect so the gyro retrieve all of its inertial angular property . (centrifugal force stay unknown)
Analyse:
At 6 the stepper should be running at full speed and suddenly reattached to the gyro to create the strongest instant acceleration as possible and of course simultneously constrain the monster precession torque.

On part 8 i think now that the right drift is due to this brutal reatachement, with strong instant accéleration which induces a slight but powerfull right sidewards push.

And back to A

Hope this helps

Laurent

Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on March 03, 2018, 01:57:59 PM
Laurent, thank you for describing your understanding of the Fiala device. This "freeing" of the arm could be a problem when using a stepper motor.

It is good that your bunker nears its completion. You have triggered the wrath of not only the men in black (agents of an alian race), also the Bilddrbergers and the freemasons are getting agitated. Be careful and ready for anything.

Greetings Conrad

P.S.: many good men have died in the name of the truth.
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on March 05, 2018, 06:35:23 PM
Slow progress: the two gyroscopes, each on a stepper motor, are ready. At the moment I am working on the frame with the wheels (goes underneath the platform carrying the stepper motors).

I put a "roller" (ball bearing acts as a little wheel) underneath the gyroscopes to take the weight as long as they are not precessing upwards. The arms with the gyroscopes at their end are now very easily turned full circle (because the nicely rolling "rollers" carry the weight of the gyroscopes.)

Precessing upwards can be inhibited by putting a wedge between stepper motor axle and arm. Precessing downwards is not possible because the groscopes "roll" on the platform (like the "track" in the Fiala patent).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on March 05, 2018, 07:33:01 PM
Hi conrad

very nice work, and you know what, it will very probably work.

Today i tried to install a small gyro with an engine on a normal servo + - 60 degrees.(total 120 degrees)

The servo can free precess on one way and is in constrain precession on the back way.

S i set my servo tester on automatic for back and forth movement.

Put everything on a chariot, and guess what it goes forward.

The free precession should be very light, just not touching the limitator. If the precession raise too much, it seems that the effect and the swing is too much schoky. But we have to test every thing.

I have not tested on the marbles and on the suspended wheel, because first i want to redo a twin system with bigger servo and a much better servo controller. (arduino with the back and forth programm)

Conrad your stepper motor in back and forth movement and the right programmation will be a killer.

But don't forgett what Fiala said , to get the best effect, you should have the max of gyroscopic weight and if possible concentrated in  the rim of the gyro, And as few as possible rotating passive mass. In other word the gyro should be mounted on a light structure.

Hope this helps

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on March 05, 2018, 10:27:02 PM
Hi conrad

just for fun

the video of this really unexpected result.

But sofar no marble test nor suspended wheel test so we have to be very carefull with this test.

I will have to buidl a twin and more stable system for comparison

hope this helps

https://youtu.be/CErrMK4MvVs

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on March 06, 2018, 09:05:23 AM
Hi conrad

just for fun

the video of this really unexpected result.

But sofar no marble test nor suspended wheel test so we have to be very carefull with this test.

I will have to buidl a twin and more stable system for comparison

hope this helps

https://youtu.be/CErrMK4MvVs (https://youtu.be/CErrMK4MvVs)

Laurent

Laurent, fascinating, it seems to be difficult to predict in which direction a Fiala type machine will go.

For me the unexpected part is the direction of movement. I think it has to do with "speeding up" and "slowing down" the circular (120°) movement of the arm (carrying the gyro). This change of speed is the crucial contribution and one has to gain control of this speed change (which I will try with thew stepper motors).

Your latest machine (video part 13) is speeding up the arm in both directions and more so on the way back (when the gyro is precessing downwards). When the gyro is precessing upwards it imparts a high resistance to the servo and therefore the acceleration of the arm is less than on the return movement.

Laurent, could you try to inhibit the upward precessing of the gyro by putting a wedge where the arm is fixed to the servo? I predict that the machine will only move back and forth. The "rowing" only works if one way has a different speed change of the arm than the other way. It is like the oar (when rowing a boat) moves through air on one way and through water on the other. I think that a complete circle of the arm (carrying the gyro) is better than "rowing".

But my prediction is not based on knowledge, just a guess.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 06, 2018, 09:18:12 AM
It can be predicted

Newtons laws will always hold true


https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/newton.html (https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/newton.html)
This is referenced to an airplane, but the same holds true for a gyro
or a rock floating in space.

In circular form, the arc of forced precession must not be 180 degrees
Or the forces will balance out in opposing directions.


Here it is again, applied to circular motion
http://www2.eng.cam.ac.uk/~hemh1/gyroscopes/newton.html (http://www2.eng.cam.ac.uk/~hemh1/gyroscopes/newton.html)
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on March 06, 2018, 04:31:20 PM
Laurent, fascinating, it seems to be difficult to predict in which direction a Fiala type machine will go.

For me the unexpected part is the direction of movement. I think it has to do with "speeding up" and "slowing down" the circular (120°) movement of the arm (carrying the gyro). This change of speed is the crucial contribution and one has to gain control of this speed change (which I will try with thew stepper motors).

Your latest machine (video part 13) is speeding up the arm in both directions and more so on the way back (when the gyro is precessing downwards). When the gyro is precessing upwards it imparts a high resistance to the servo and therefore the acceleration of the arm is less than on the return movement.

Laurent, could you try to inhibit the upward precessing of the gyro by putting a wedge where the arm is fixed to the servo? I predict that the machine will only move back and forth. The "rowing" only works if one way has a different speed change of the arm than the other way. It is like the oar (when rowing a boat) moves through air on one way and through water on the other. I think that a complete circle of the arm (carrying the gyro) is better than "rowing".

But my prediction is not based on knowledge, just a guess.

Greetings, Conrad

Hi conrad

I am not sure that the speed of rotation is different on both   parts of the stroque. (back and forth)

What is sure is that there is the swing stroque where the gyro want  but cannot precess at all (it simply apply a unusefull down torque on the arm which is mechnically constrained  ) during this phase the gyro translate along a planar path, and exhibit full inertia.(Fiala patent)

Then at the end of the swing stroque the servo immediately invert the translation, which seems perhaps even better than the "free fall " of the Fiala's system, and immediately the gyro can free precess, but the precssion is forced by the servo, it is no more a natural gravity free precession.
And during this forced precession, the gyro seems , as per the Fiala's patent ,  also" lose some of the something", and exhibit less inertia on the way back for a new swing stroque.

So we have the assymetry of inertia (harwey Fiala) between the back and the forth translation. This is why it works as to my understanding and at my absolute stupefaction.

You can notice that the Swing speed is not very high, that is due to the fact that this rotation speed must match the gyro spinning speed, so in the forced free precession back loop, the gyro should not raise up too much.
 
Your definition of the oar just above the water for the back loop is perfect.

 I have noticed that if i swing too fast than the gyro lift ut almost vertically (and more) and at the end of the back loop, when the servo brutally reinvert the translation for the swing sequence, the gyro percutes strongly the downwards mechanical limitator, and everything woobble as crazy and  the efficiency is very poor.

What is puzzling is that during this way back the rotation speed seems the same as the swing rotation speed. On the Fiala's the natural precession translation is much slower than the swing speed ?

Your proposition to limit the up raise of the gyro , will make no more assymetry ( the gyro is not allowed to free precess at all) between the 2 stroques and it is sure that the device will stay wobbling back and forth without forward movement.

Finally the back and forth mouvement, is very convenient, because you can power the gyro very easily and with electric wire, So no contact rings or other commutator necessary, you can also make twin device easily.
Apropos i wonder if it would work with one oscillating single servo (120 degrees), with one single motor and 2 gyros  monted in opposition. So one gyro is swinging (motorizing) and the other is precessing (not motorizing) and than the contrary??

Youup a lot to think

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on March 09, 2018, 07:50:01 PM
Programming can start next week. The wheels are not mounted during the program development phase.


Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on March 09, 2018, 10:32:31 PM
Hi conrad

good to see you going on the test

I have also learned to program my arduino and i can do what i want with my servos for this purpose.

Just for an important info i tried the "kayak rowing" (see picture ) on one single servo oscillating back and forth, and it does not work at all.

The gyros are correctly swinging ad precessing as i would expect but no movement at all , only wobbling back and forth.

I had the same result with the Fiala Fig 8 i tried .

And as soon as i put away one gyro , the device goes happily forward, very puzzling ?

So i am making a flat forced precession device with twin gyros , but rowing simultaneously

Always so interesting and surprising this experiment

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on March 10, 2018, 01:28:36 PM
Laurent, nice build. And I am glad that you are also using an Arduino. The way forward with these strange gyroscope machines is precise control by microprocessor. It should be possible to find what is really going on.

It would also be good to controll the speed of the gyroscope. The speed of the gyroscopes should somehow correspond with the speed of the arm.

I am collecting materials for a super machine with strong stepper motors, good stepper motor drivders  and the beautiful gyroscopes from England, which come with their own DC motors. At least I can let these gyrosopes turn with different speeds by varying the supply Voltage (2, 3 or 4 AA batteries).

Great plans but slow work, greetings Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on March 10, 2018, 05:47:02 PM
Good stepper motors https://www.amazon.de/Schrittmotor-40mm-4-Leiter-3D-Drucker-Verdrahtung/dp/B01KJOM7KC/ref=sr_1_18?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1520699654&sr=1-18&keywords=nema17+schrittmotor


Good driver (one for each stepper motor) https://www.amazon.de/TopDirect-Stepper-Schrittmotor-Treiber-Controller/dp/B0711J1K66/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1520699539&sr=8-1&keywords=Stepper+motor+controller+9V


How it is done with an Arduino https://www.dfrobot.com/wiki/index.php/TB6600_Stepper_Motor_Driver_SKU:_DRI0043


Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on March 10, 2018, 06:11:48 PM
Hi conrad

thank's for info, will read  for my new build.

I have just finished the new proto and have some very positive results.

It seems that the rower system is promising, and sure the arduino will be used for the improvement.

Will go on the test those next days

Greetings
Laurent

Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on March 10, 2018, 07:44:22 PM


 http://www.pyroelectro.com/tutorials/arduino_multi_servo/software.html (http://www.pyroelectro.com/tutorials/arduino_multi_servo/software.html)


How to speed up two servos (each 1 degree step happens faster than the previous):
 
#include <Servo.h>
Servo servo_0;
Servo servo_1;
 
void setup()
{
  servo_0.attach(0);  // attaches the servo on pin 0 to the servo object, different pin can be used
  servo_1.attach(1);  // attaches the servo on pin 1 to the servo object, different pin can be used

  servo_0.write(0);          // send servo_0 to position 0 degrees
  servo_1.write(0);          // send servo_1 to Position 0 degrees
  delay(2000);                  // wait 2 seconds (2000 ms)
}
 
void loop()
{       

for(int i=0;i<=170;i++){     // servos step from 0 to 170 degrees
  servo_0.write(i);
  servo_1.write(i);
  delay(25 + 170 - i);           // 25 ms minimum delay, could be less, has to be tested,
                                            // delay is decreased from 25 + 170 ms to 25 ms
  }

for(int i=170;i>=0;i--){     // servos step from 170 to 0 degrees
  servo_0.write(i);
  servo_1.write(i);
  delay(25 + i);                  // 25 ms minimum delay, could be less, has to be tested,
                                          // delay is decreased from 25 + 170 ms to 25 ms
  }
}
 
One has to test the minimum delay needed for a particular servo to complete a 1 degree step  (in the above example it is assumed to be 25ms).

The problem is that a servo is inherently slow.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on March 11, 2018, 11:46:41 PM
hi conrad

Just tried your softs and they work well thanks

But today i got lost in all the testing with rowing or not rowing and i decided  to get a reference for my future work.

So i redo my best fiala system with a better motor and a regulator for different gyro setup and this one will not be dismantled for other experiments

 I have ordered a bunch of those figdget spinners with outer brass ring because they seems to be very close to what Fiala describe in the patent.

it will be MY SCALE for comparison with other experiments, because it works so well.

hope this helps

Laurent
,

Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on March 12, 2018, 03:15:42 PM
So i redo my best fiala system with a better motor and a regulator for different gyro setup and this one will not be dismantled for other experiments

I have ordered a bunch of those fidget spinners with outer brass ring because they seems to be very close to what Fiala describe in the patent.

it will be MY SCALE for comparison with other experiments, because it works so well.

Laurent, it will be advantageous to have a reference system for comparison. It is easy to get lost, take your time, there is no need for haste. Nobody seems to be interested anyway.

I am held up because I could not find my shrink sleeving when connecting the stepper motors to the motor shield. I have to get some, to do the wiring nicely.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on March 13, 2018, 08:11:09 PM
The stepper motors I used in my first build are not strong enough to turn the arm carrying the gyroscope. I need to get better drivers and stepper motors with more torque. That also means that the Adafruit motor shield is not adequate to the task at hand (not enough drive capability).

This driver might do: https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B0711J1K66/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=AZ33U9I2AQIQH&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B0711J1K66/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=AZ33U9I2AQIQH&psc=1) (one for each stepper motor)

I am still looking for adequate stepper motors. I want some with a 12 Volt rating at about 2 Ampere (6 Ohm phases).

In the unlikely case that someone is also building a replication with stepper motors, be aware that the Adafruit stepper motor shield is not capable to drive strong enough stepper motors. Even small gyroscopes are relatively heavy and pose a strong resistance to twisting if they run at 10.000 rpm.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on March 14, 2018, 12:03:55 PM
Hi conrad

Thanks for beeing one of the very few interested contributor in this gyro propulsion. Perhaps too puzzling or too difficult for the people.

Yes those small gyros exhibit a terrible torque , and it is why it is so difficult to get good results with my rowing system with 2 standard electric dc motors.There is always small spinning divergence. and the precession are not in sync, and so the propulsive effect is lost.

Perhaps and i hope you will get better results with the stepper motor.

I have redo the suspended wheel test with my new rebuilt flat Fiala mono gyro, to get some measurement and keep it as comparison for further experiment.

https://youtu.be/AlH1zfGG7_Y

Hope this helps

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on March 14, 2018, 07:49:26 PM
I put a new video on YouTube showing the failed attempt with low torque stepper motors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raP4syp_WVE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raP4syp_WVE)

The stronger stepper motors will arrive soon.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on March 22, 2018, 07:18:50 PM
I got good stepper motors which seem to be strong enough (17HS13-0404S)

https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B072LVXVKW/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A1FPXIYSVOP6JD&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B072LVXVKW/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A1FPXIYSVOP6JD&psc=1)

But the next problem manifested itself:

I have to move the stepper motors step by step (always just one step) because the delay between steps has to decrease (from 0° to 180°) and then to increase (from 180° to 360°). Unfortunately the function onestep()  driving the stepper motor just one step needs about 2 ms before it returns. Since I have to call this function 400 times per full circle (200 times per stepper motor) this "calling" alone takes almost 1 second. Therefore I can not turn the stepper motors faster than about 1 turn per second. Which is not fast enough.

for (i=0; i < 100; i++){    // step from 0° to 180° , 100 steps
   delayMicroseconds(dly(i));            // decreasing delays
  myMotor2->onestep(BACKWARD, DOUBLE);  // takes about 2 ms to return
  myMotor1->onestep(FORWARD, DOUBLE);   // takes about 2 ms to return
}
for (i=99; i >= 0; i--){    // step from 180° to 360° , 100 steps
  delayMicroseconds(dly(i));            // increasing delays
  myMotor2->onestep(BACKWARD, DOUBLE);  // takes about 2 ms to return
  myMotor1->onestep(FORWARD, DOUBLE);   // takes about 2 ms to return
}

I ordered stepper motor drivers which allow a more direct control of the stepper motors than the Adafruit Motor Shield V2.7:

https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B06XSD5XPR/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A1QCDAONWDNBZA&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B06XSD5XPR/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A1QCDAONWDNBZA&psc=1)

A difficult project with many pitfalls.

It turned out that the precessing of the gyroscopes has to be prevented. If not prevented the gyroscopes will precess immediately when the arms are accelerated. If the gyroscope spins clockwise the arm also has to be turned clockwise to cause a upward precessing (or the same counter clockwise). If the gyroscope does not spin fast enough or the arm is not turned fast enough the precessing will not happen.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on March 30, 2018, 12:56:09 PM
Hi all

I am now trying to better grasp the "why" of the "something's lost" in the Fiala horizontal inertial machine.

Here i replicated the Eric Laithwaite 2 pivots experiment, which shows that there is no weight loss when a gyro is naturally precessing (which was already known), but something else is happening, perhaps a "mass transfer" along the spinning axle ???

https://youtu.be/jD_Q_J4GcQ8

What do you think ?

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on March 30, 2018, 02:43:20 PM
Laurent, great video, what a nice setup! And you are very fast when building something.

I found a good explanation of the gyroscope forces: http://www.cleonis.nl/physics/phys256/gyroscope_physics.php (http://www.cleonis.nl/physics/phys256/gyroscope_physics.php) and http://butikov.faculty.ifmo.ru/Applets/Gyroscope.pdf

My interpretation of your video: what the layman expects to be a weightloss goes in fact into a circular movement of the arm. In other words, when the gyroscope is up (what looks like a weight loss) the force (which keeps the gyroscope up) translates into a force that turns the arm. And slowly this turning force is diminishing (the arm goes back into balance) when the gyroscope spins down. And this is not for free. The power you put into spinning up the gyroscope is slowly dissipated into turning the arm while it spins down. (All the friction losses make it very complicated. I ignored friction in my explanation.)

This is still "wonderful" because a spinning of the gyroscope is turned into a circular movement of the arm. The interesting part is that the spinning of the gyroscope and the turning of the arm are both "angular moments". Therefore conservation of moment is not violated.

Yesterday I finally got my new stepper motor drivers https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B06XSD5XPR (https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B06XSD5XPR/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

https://www.dfrobot.com/wiki/index.php/TB6600_Stepper_Motor_Driver_SKU:_DRI0043 (https://www.dfrobot.com/wiki/index.php/TB6600_Stepper_Motor_Driver_SKU:_DRI0043) Good explantion of the TB6600, but the code example confuses the fact that the TB6600 is driven with OptoCouplers, active = LOW if wired as in the document.

I could install them on my contraption, but the first tests have to wait till next week. I am NOT fast when building something.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on March 30, 2018, 05:08:48 PM
Hi conrad

Thank's for compliments.

Now i have looked in the Prof Lewin gyro lecture.

The problem with all these gyro lectures and explanations, is that they generally speak of  gyros , most of the time suspended bicycle wheel on one side or totally gimballed system) .

No one is trying to explain the "DOUBLE inline PIVOTS " of Laithwaite.

So in the one sided suspended bicycle wheel, there is ONE single pivot, that is the point where the string is attached to the axle of the wheel. And of course the weight of the wheel spinning and precessing does not change at all but the gyroscopic torque maintain the wheel momentarily more or less horizontal (nutation) and induce a vertical rotating movement to the wheel (precession)

The explanation of the phenomenon is that the weight (mass) of the wheel seems to be transferred right on the pivot by the gyroscopic torque of the precessing wheel. So nothing new here.

In my video this is not at all the same system. It is a "seesaw"  system where, on one side of the seesaw the gyro when  not spinning, is a dead weight located and suspended at the end of main arm by a pivot, and is counterweighted by another fixed dead weight on the opposite end of the arm.
The system at full stop is perfectly balanced and the main arm stays horizontal.

Now if we accept that the weight of a spinning and precessing bicycle wheel is located (by gyroscopic  torque) exactly on the string pivot, we should also accept that on the seesaw system, the weight of the spinning and precessing gyro,is also tranfered and thus  located exactly on its pivot.

So when the seesaw double pivot system is in precession, we should expect that the main arm of the seesaw, SHOULD STAY HORIZONTAL, because everything is balanced exactly as if the gyro would not spinn at all and stays "deadly" suspended.

But it is not the case, when the gyro is spinning and precessing it seems that the gyroscopic torque (if it is it) does not transfer the weight exactly on the pivot, but under certain circomstances it is able to  transfer the weight (or mass) elsewhere and very probably beyond the pivot axle in direction of the seesaw center.

It is why the system is momentarily unbalanced and the gyro side lift up.

It is what,  i suppose , Laithwaite called a mass transfer.( not sure)

This mass transfer is first (when the gyro spins fast) , beyond the pivot, and then gradually (when the gyro is slowing) moves in direction of the pivot and finally when the gyro approach the stopp, on the center of gravity of the gyro which now pendels vertically under the pivot. ( so the pivot is now vertically exactly above the center of gravity of the gyro) and the seesaw is horizontal and balanced again.

Another time there is no weight loss at all, no antigravity here, but something else.

And if we stay on the general  gyro's explanations with one pivot (or gimballed ) and a bunch of vectors we will probabbly miss "something" of great interest, because with one pivot it is impossible to detect if the mass is transferred elswhere (if it is) than the pivot center.

And this "Something" is probably  what make The Fiala device work and the Laithwaite seesaw lift up, and also very probably a part of why Laithwaite could lift the BIG (20 kg) wheel with one old wrist and why a suspended bicycle wheel with a very long string beginns orbiting in space and much more.

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on March 30, 2018, 06:33:31 PM
Laurent, thank you for explaining the difference between usual setups of a gyroscope and your setup. I was not aware of that.

I played a bit with the TB6600 stepper motor drivers ( https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B06XSD5XPR (https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B06XSD5XPR)  ) and can confirm that they allow excellent control of the stepper motors. Everything is fast enough to control each and every step and still go fast.

One needs a TB6600 driver and three pins on the Arduino for every stepper motor. But the TB6600 driver only costs about EUR 14.--.

If one uses two different power supplies or two different sets of batteries (one for the Arduino and one for the TB6600s and stepper motors) the Arduino is shielded by optocouplers, which is proper engineering (to avoid electronic interference).

A TB6600 driver can drive very strong stepper motors up to 4 A per coil. The stepper motors I am using at the moment only need 0.5 A per coil, but I want to use stronger ones later on for my better gyroscopes. The TB6600 can limit the power to the coils in increments from 0.5 A to 4 A, which is handy. It can also do multi stepping up to 32 intermediate steps, which is not useful for this project but allows very smooth stepping in other applications.

I am not advertising the TB6600 but it was difficult to get a reasonably priced and still useful stepper motor driver. Building one based on a driver chip is too tedious and would cost more than EUR 14.--. It is also a strange requirement to control each and every step. Usually one wants that the stepper motor driver does a series of steps independently (like the Adafruit Motor Shield V2.7).
 
One can not use the Adafruit Motor Shield V2.7 for this project because the control of each and every step of a stepper motor is very limited (too time consuming, about 2 ms per step). See this post http://overunity.com/17573/inertial-propulsion-with-gyroscope/msg518684/#msg518684 (http://overunity.com/17573/inertial-propulsion-with-gyroscope/msg518684/#msg518684)

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on April 27, 2018, 07:26:23 PM
Hi conrad

are you always on the topic ?

I go slowly forward too, but i make further experiments trying to isolate the property of those things

https://youtu.be/qyqyX7jgjZU

greetings

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: telecom on April 28, 2018, 03:56:05 AM
Interesting.
So the heavy thing can become light?
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on April 28, 2018, 09:59:40 PM
@Laurent: I have my first prototype nearly finished. The Chinese Stepper Motor Drivers work very well, up to 20.000 individually triggered steps per second are theoretically possible.

I also had other things to do.

Will have time to watch your video on Monday.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on April 30, 2018, 01:58:19 PM
I go slowly forward too, but i make further experiments trying to isolate the property of those things

https://youtu.be/qyqyX7jgjZU (https://youtu.be/qyqyX7jgjZU)

As Laurent explains in his latest video, and as Harvey Fiala writes in his two patent applications, the rotational speed of the arm carrying the gyroscope in a circle and the rotational speed of the gyroscope have to be in a certain relationship. Hopefully there is a range of rotational speed within which the thing can exhibit its "space drive property" (or whatever there is). First inconclusive tests by myself have shown that nothing is straight forward with this strange machine.

My personal conclusion:

- One needs two strong stepper motors which can turn the two arms carrying the gyroscope at variable speeds, and the top speed has to be pretty fast. Therefore two stepper motor drivers are needed which allow to control individual steps at high speed (or better said at a high frequency, at least 2000 steps per second, better 4000). E.g. two stepper motor drivers like that https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B06XSD5XPR (https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B06XSD5XPR) and two stepper motors like that https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B072LVXVKW (https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B072LVXVKW) (or even stronger, depending on the weight of the gyroscopes mounted on the arms).

- One needs a microcontroller to control the two stepper motors. E. g, an Arduino Uno https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B008GRTSV6 (https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B008GRTSV6)

- The variable rotational speed of the arms carrying the gyroscopes also needs a mathematical algorithm which produces the variable delays between stepper motor steps, e.g. a sinus like curve.

- One must be able to set the speed of each gyroscope. Fortunately not at constantly varying speeds, therefore a pulse width modulated speed control for each gyroscope is enough which allows to search for a suitable rotational speed of the gyroscope (in relation to the rotational speed of the arm carrying the gyroscope). E.g. two speed controls like that https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B07284TL3R (https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B07284TL3R)

- One needs a set of batteries for each gyroscope (which is carried by the arm, best at the center of rotation above the axis of the stepper motor), a set of batteries for the two stepper motors and a set of batteries for the microcontroller.

So, it is not a simple project. Mechanically and electronically the requirements are quite high. Therefore it takes me so long (and I also have other things to do like living and relating to my environment). At the moment I have no speed control for the gyroscopes and I observe while they spin down (the gyroscopes are span up with a Dremel drill, like Laurent does in his latest video). My final design will have the nice gyroscopes from England with pulse width speed control  https://www.gyroscope.com/d.asp?product=SUPER2 (https://www.gyroscope.com/d.asp?product=SUPER2) (the gyroscope comes with a 6V DC motor)

The tests done by Laurent helped me a lot to design my setup. I started with a much too simple design.

If you have forgotten how my set up looks at the moment please look at these posts
 http://overunity.com/17573/inertial-propulsion-with-gyroscope/msg518684/#msg518684 (http://overunity.com/17573/inertial-propulsion-with-gyroscope/msg518684/#msg518684)
 http://overunity.com/17573/inertial-propulsion-with-gyroscope/msg519133/#msg519133 (http://overunity.com/17573/inertial-propulsion-with-gyroscope/msg519133/#msg519133)

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: Hanelore on May 05, 2018, 04:13:42 PM
Hi Laurent,
 
 thanks for all your videos and craftsmanship!
 
 Why not doing the ultimate pendulum test for any claimed unidirectional motivator?
 
 http://www.nemitz.net/vernon/Pendulum.gif (http://www.nemitz.net/vernon/Pendulum.gif)
 
 I think the device of your video part 10 would be an ideal canditate!
 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjoyPU5t2ys#t=150 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjoyPU5t2ys#t=150)
 
 Put it in a transparent box and attache a laser pointer, which beams on a ruler.
 
 See page 15 in Nasa-Paper "Assessing Potential Propulsion Breakthroughs":
 
 http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20060000022.pdf (http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20060000022.pdf)
 
 Hope to see this experiment on Youtube soon!!!
 
 Keep it up, Hanelore
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: telecom on May 07, 2018, 10:26:26 AM

My interpretation of your video: what the layman expects to be a weightloss goes in fact into a circular movement of the arm. In other words, when the gyroscope is up (what looks like a weight loss) the force (which keeps the gyroscope up) translates into a force that turns the arm. And slowly this turning force is diminishing (the arm goes back into balance) when the gyroscope spins down. And this is not for free. The power you put into spinning up the gyroscope is slowly dissipated into turning the arm while it spins down. (All the friction losses make it very complicated. I ignored friction in my explanation.)

This is still "wonderful" because a spinning of the gyroscope is turned into a circular movement of the arm. The interesting part is that the spinning of the gyroscope and the turning of the arm are both "angular moments". Therefore conservation of moment is not violated.

Yesterday I finally got my new stepper motor drivers
Greetings, Conrad
Hi Conrad,
when saying this you imply that there is a transmission between the gyro and the precession.
But I don't see any such mechanism.
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on May 07, 2018, 04:05:25 PM
Hi Conrad,
when saying this you imply that there is a transmission between the gyro and the precession.
But I don't see any such mechanism.

I learned that my understanding of the gyroscope and specially my understanding of a gyroscope on an arm which can or is turned around a central axis is very flawed. In fact I do not understand anything contrary to what I believed before I did some experiments. So, if you think you understand something try to demonstrate it by help of a contraption. Make a video of the experiment. I stopped to believe in words, only a demonstration of something with a gyroscope is worth discussing.

I try to do experiments, but simple contraptions are not enough. At the moment I believe that a stepper motor could shed light on the strange behaviour of a gyroscope by turning an arm which carries a gyroscope with variable speed (acceleration or deceleration). But this is not as simple as it sounds because the rate of acceleration or deceleration of the arm and the rotary speed of the gyroscope have both an influence. The relationship between acceleration (or deceleration) of the arm and the rotary speed of the gyroscope is not trivial, a contraption shows very different behaviour depending on both factors.

This post describes what I think at the moment http://overunity.com/17573/inertial-propulsion-with-gyroscope/msg520668/#msg520668 (http://overunity.com/17573/inertial-propulsion-with-gyroscope/msg520668/#msg520668) , but it will propably change when progressing with my work.

This experiment (not done by me) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldqUV-DXiUg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldqUV-DXiUg) shows the situation I am talking about. Now imagine the center of the arm is a stepper motor accelerating (or decelerating) the arm and in addition that the nodding of the arm (you my call it precession) is restricted. Very strange things happen if you look closely. The question is, in which direction wants the whole contraption to move? Apparently the contraption does not lose weight but it wants to move over the table (which one only sees if it can move and is not restricted by friction as in the video).

If this all sounds weird, it is because I know nothing. And I think that the experts also know nothing once the right questions are asked or the right contraptions are built.

Also watch Laurent's video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyqyX7jgjZU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyqyX7jgjZU) , it also shows what I am talking about.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: ramset on May 07, 2018, 07:35:38 PM
Seems that even the more exotic Gyro experiments just leave more questions than answers.
Member Smudge has some musings and thoughts on a possible method to harvest Gain from a gyro and put it to work?
here
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=129.msg67612;topicseen#msg67612

he is also a member here.


respectfully
Chet K
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on May 07, 2018, 08:56:14 PM
Seems that even the more exotic Gyro experiments just leave more questions than answers.
Member Smudge has some musings and thoughts on a possible method to harvest Gain from a gyro and put it to work?
here
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=129.msg67612;topicseen#msg67612 (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=129.msg67612;topicseen#msg67612)

There are hundreds if not thousands ideas concerning gyroscopes mainly in respect to "turning the rotary motions of a gyroscope into a linear motion". I read quite a lot of them and the new thing in the Fiala patent (which I did not find in all the other "inventions" I heard of) is that the rotary speed of the gyroscope matters. It is not that the gyroscope should spin as fast as possible, no, the gyroscope should have a certain speed below it's technically possible top speed. Fiala mentions that several times in his two patents.

This seems to be novel and is the reason why I experiment. Fiala says in his two patents that there is a relationship between the rotational speed of the arm and the rotational speed of the gyroscope.

Laurent also shows in his video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyqyX7jgjZU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyqyX7jgjZU) that the rotational speed of the gyroscope matters indeed.

If the rotational speed of a gyroscope matters (besides being as fast as possible) things become more complicated and might have been overlooked because the outcome of many experiments might be radically different depending on the rotational speed of the gyroscope. And it is very unlikely that experimenters used the right rotational speed by chance. My guess is that the gyroscope in many experiments span too fast because one would intuitively spin it as fast as technically possible expecting a greater "force" if the gyroscope spins faster. And this might be the crucial error which caused failure in many experiments. This might be the crucial fact which Fiala discovered.

Unfortunately the contraption which Fiala shows in his video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sy8znYK8EXg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sy8znYK8EXg) (start at minute 36:00) and which Laurent replicated is not totally conclusive, many questions are left open. It seems that at least two such contraptions turning synchronously would be necessary to learn more. And that is exactly what I am building.

I am not naive and I am aware that current science excludes a "space drive" built with gyroscopes. But I like to experiment and I like strange contraptions (and I like to play with stepper motors). So, whatever I tell you and will tell you, do your own experiments and be aware that I am not an expert, just an old man who fiddles with things beyond his understanding.

If you want to know what I found so far, read this post http://overunity.com/17573/inertial-propulsion-with-gyroscope/msg520668/#msg520668 (http://overunity.com/17573/inertial-propulsion-with-gyroscope/msg520668/#msg520668) . And watch Laurent's videos https://www.youtube.com/user/woopyjump/videos (the 16 most recent ones with "inertial propulsion" in the title).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on May 08, 2018, 07:34:05 PM

Hi conrad

Your last posts are very interesting.

And yes the spinning speed of the gyro is very important. That's why i have implemented a speed regulator (pwm) on my motors.

And also do not forget to decrease the DEAD MASS (on the gyro side at a maximum). Each gramm is important.

I am now doing some very interesting test on the precession of  2 gyros mounted on the same vertical rotation shaft but free precessing 180 degre of each other. Plus other test with the pivot completely offset of the vertical rotation shaft.

Mind shaking, so fascinating.

 Lot of fun.

Laurent







Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on May 08, 2018, 11:18:30 PM
Hi Hanelore

Please can you explain to me the difference between a Nasa's pendulum test and my suspended wheel results in my video part 6 and 14 on the subject.

Thank's

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on May 08, 2018, 11:32:19 PM
Re-hi Hanelore

fergot to give you the link to

video 6   https://youtu.be/VoDj5KlJztc

video 14  https://youtu.be/AlH1zfGG7_Y   

good night at all

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: shadowbones on May 09, 2018, 12:24:22 AM
Dear Laurent,

I am fascinated by your experiments. You are very innovative. The geometry of the apparatus seems to be key, much like it was during the historical development of electric motors.

By the way, the pendulum experiment suggested above would not be appropriate for your device, because you are not generating a sustained acceleration. In order for the pendulum to stay deviated sideways, you would need a continuous acceleration to oppose the acceleration of gravity. You do not have that. How to produce one seems to be a difficult problem.

But really your demonstration that linear momentum is not conserved (at least not in a way that we can see) is plenty interesting by itself.

Kevin

P.S. I would love to try to make some devices myself. Do you have suggestions for good places to find all the little parts you use: bearings, shafts, motors, supports, brackets, etc? And especially, can you tell us where you order the fidget spinner from?



Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on May 09, 2018, 01:16:30 PM
Please can you explain to me the difference between a Nasa's pendulum test and my suspended wheel results in my video part 6 and 14 on the subject.

The NASA swing test of an inertial drive: If the inertial drive is placed on a swing the swing should stay permanently on one side of vertical.

Please look at the attached drawing. Imagine that the inertial drive sits on the swing like a child. Switch the inertial drive on and go to the side of the swing (side view on the drawing). If the inertial drive pushes forward the swing should stay permanently to the right of vertical. The swing may swing back and forth a bit initially but after a while the swing should stay permanently away from the vertical position.

If one attaches a laser pointer to the swing, one can see on the floor whether the laser point wanders to the left or the right of the vertical position and whether it stays finally at a position away from the vertical (initial) position.

This is the obvious test of an inertial drive and I do not believe that it was invented by NASA. But it sounds good to call it the "NASA swing test".

May be that helps, Conrad


@Laurent: you can use the swing in your bunker for training and amusement.
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on May 09, 2018, 05:13:35 PM
Hi conrad

Thank's for your drawings. Of course i knew it , but my question to Hanelore was more to let him (her) explain if there is any advantage with the Nasa's pendulum test in comparaison with my rotating suspended wheel (whych is somehow also a pendulum system ).

To me a viable Nasa's pendulum test could only be made with a double twin gyroscope system.  (minimum 4 gyroscopes all in symetrical position horizontal and vertical to get a perfect straight forward oriented pushing action, you can see some exemple in the Laithwaite patent), because the wobling due to asymetrical movement and vertical  and side effects are counter productive and can decrease and even completely destroy the propulsion.

Just for info and reminder, i was some how desappointed by the so slow acceleration (video 14) of the mono gyro Fiala's flat system on the suspended wheel in comparison with the nice translation on the solid flat ground.
 
And to me the explanation is that the wobling of the suspended wheel induces strong  horizontal oscillations so the device is not on a planar surface but on a kind of roller coaster carousel, which  produces some free and/or forced precession to the gyro even on the motorising side (where it should be no free precession at all and the gyro should exhibit full newtonian action -reaction as per a dead mass) This has already been discussed in this thread with Dr Jones.

And now i feel very lucky to get some rotation of the suspended wheel even with those negatively acting wobling. And i think that the forward displacement of the Nasa's pendulum test is compensated by the force that let the suspended wheel rotate

And as final, i have a big problem, all the nasa's pendulum test i have seen , need very long lines. And the bunker i have received has a roof height of only
2.3 meters. Probably to low for this kind of test.
So when you  order yours, don't forget to choose the version with chimney.

Greetings

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: Hanelore on May 10, 2018, 01:32:45 AM
Hi Laurent,
 
 there is an important difference between the tests!
 
 Your suspended wheel test:
 If machine causes angular momentum instead of (linear) momentum,
 then it will go in circles too.
 
 Nasa pendulum test:
 If machine causes angular momentum instead of (linear) momentum,
 then it will wobble at its initial position, but the laser point at
 the ruler will not show a clear unidirectional movement.
 
 Gyros are already in use for attitude control of spacecrafts,
 but system center of mass does not move during operation!
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_moment_gyroscope
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_wheel
 
 If a system is fixed to an external mass like your suspended wheel on
 the ceiling, then angular momentum causes rotation about this point.
 
 If you want to prove that machine center of mass is moving without
 expelling masses like a rocket, then Nasa pendulum test is necessary.
 
 For easy recognizable results a double twin gyroscope system is perfect,
 but one twin gyroscope system like that in video part 10 will show it too!
 
 Only one gyro is not a good idea because of wobbling about vertical axis.
 
 Long lines for Nasa pendulum test are perfect, but 2m are good enough
 for a first test - just use additional weights on the machine stand plate
 in order to reduce wobbling around the transverse axis.
 
 Still hoping to see this experiment on Youtube soon!
 
 Best, Hanelore
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on May 10, 2018, 06:20:50 PM
Hi Hanelore

It is freeday in my country , and bad weather, so i decided ti give a crude go to this "Nasa's" pendulum test.

As i thought, there is a lot of wobling, so the motorising effect is not at max for sure.

At the end of the video the pointer is somehow partially stabilised, but always pendels a bit, so i don't know if the test is of any relevance.

To me the test on the marbles (part eight) is much more interesting, because we can study the device and its behaviour in details.

Just for your info as your are new in this forum,  i have no commercial interest in inertial propulsion system, and i do it only for my pleasure. And frankly said  , the motorising effect is so weak that i see no possibility for a practical use on this planet, and this Fiala's flat system is  gravity precessed so they does not work in space. And as i have no connection to Elon Musk for developping a forced precessed device whych could go through space at supraluminal speed my hope are very short. But who knows?

And my pleasure now will not be to prove to you or anyone else something, but to share info and eventually go deeper in the understanding of gyros when they spin and precess.

The gyros are fascinating,..... are they more??

So back to workshop

https://youtu.be/CCN2cWNFVWA

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on May 10, 2018, 09:25:15 PM
Interesting video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t34Gv39ypRo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t34Gv39ypRo) (no weight loss when a gyroscope is precessing)

Wild contraption that does not work https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwh2vGudeLk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwh2vGudeLk) (there seem to be some people who experiment, but it is not easy)

Even wilder https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQs0FtjUj1c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQs0FtjUj1c)

@Laurent: your pendulum test https://youtu.be/CCN2cWNFVWA (https://youtu.be/CCN2cWNFVWA) is not so bad for such a slowly turning "space drive". I think with two drives and a bit faster turning of the arms it would stay on one side of vertical.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: Hanelore on May 11, 2018, 12:52:53 AM
Hi Laurent,
 
 thanks for the video with pendulum test attempt, but
 without parallel line pairs it is not Nasa pendulum test.
 
 In your test lines go up conically and allow rotation about transverse axis!
 
 The machine in traction phase causes a torque parallel transverse axis,
 which becomes visible with lines going up conically.
 
 I made a scetch for Nasa pendulum test in your room (see attachement) and
 with such an arrangement the system can not rotate about transverse axis.
 
 Gyros are indeed fascinating!
 
 Thanks for all your efforts, Hanelore
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on May 11, 2018, 10:18:05 AM
Hi all

A new member "shadowbones" is trying to post here but he could not and he PM to me. here is the paste of his PM.

  "Sorry, woopy, I'm stumbling around trying to learn the forum site.

My attempted post for a couple days ago is still in moderation. Basically, I pointed out that since your method doesn't create sustained acceleration, the NASA pendulum test is not appropriate.

Also, I asked if you have good suggestions about where to get small parts for experimentation, including the fidget spinner you use. Years ago when I last tried some of this, I used a company called Small Parts (in the US)  but they are no longer around.

Thanks,
Kevin "

So Kevin i hope you will be approuved soon. Just for info the spinner i use come from Banggood china. I insist on the fact that the weight of a good gyro for our purpose MUST be in majority in the rim of the gyro. So the spinner i got are not the cheaper, but they work so well and they can easily be combined up to 5 together. Ref at Banggood "
EDC motif circulaire Fidget Creative Fingers Entre spirale Jouets Gyroscope ronde réduire le stress.And chose the version with the smooth ring.
They also have 360 degrees servo if you want to replicate some of my experiment, so we can discuss the results.
Hope this helps
Laurent
   
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on May 11, 2018, 10:46:30 AM
I conrad

Yes nice videos

My comment on the first one.
 This guy make a totally wrong test trying to debunk Prof Laithwaite. He should have much better spend his time and money and build the big wheel as Another debunker "Veritasium " did, and discuss the result. He would have learned something. It is somehow similar to the students (i mentionned in part 16) at Imperial college that jump on conclusion with incomplete experiment. Pathetic !
And if you notice, all these people use the famous HIGH PRECISION gyro from England, with a lot of dead mass all arround the gyrowheel. This gyro is certainly a very good school object with a lot of gimballing possibility, but probably not the best one to replicate Laithwaite's or Fiala's experiment. The big wheel is only one big gyro and a pole, if it was surrounded with lots of heavy protective dead mass, i am almost sure that Laithwaite would have been "centrifuged" against the wall and would have missed the remarkable effect.

The 2 other videos are good attempt, but with poor material. If you look at Sandy Kidd latest video https://youtu.be/ExCC9zZeZuY, you see that another time the gyros are "nude" (no dead mass) at the end of the shaft. And the device is very solid. You know very well how strong those gyros react when they are forced precessed.
And Sandy has the speed controll of the spinning gyro and the rotation with RC.

And for the Nasa's pendulum, Hanelore say that it is not correct so let's assume it is not a Nasa's pendulum test et voila.

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on May 11, 2018, 11:13:13 AM
Hi Hanelore

I don't know if you have ever built a gyroscopic system as the Fiala's.

If not , i would recommand you to do, i have given  some components ordering possibilities to "shadowbones" some posts above, so you can also order the spinners and make a replication for discussion.

Once you have replicated this very simple device , and feel its working forces in your hands, with all the strong assymetry and torque, you will try to reproduce a perfect Nasa's pendulum test (if you can) and i will be very happy to discuss your result.

As to me i will stick on the part eight of my video test https://youtu.be/_WBD5hZu0t4 as the ultimate test for the moment.

And so i agree, i should  vorget the denomination of Nasa's pendulum test so far. But it was a nice experiment by a rainy day.

And if you have an explanation for the GS portion (gyrodynamic stroke) of the Fiala's device, it would be of high interest.

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: conradelektro on May 11, 2018, 12:11:58 PM
@Laurent:  Part eight of your videos [/size]https://youtu.be/_WBD5hZu0t4 (https://youtu.be/_WBD5hZu0t4) is indeed the best experiment concerning an "inertial drive" I have seen on YouToube and generally on the Internet.

If you continue with your tests and if I can build my "double system" we hopefully discover why Fiala's device which you replicated is this good. It looks so shaky and mechanically unsound, but still it moves very well.

The most interesting video concerning "mass transfer" is your part 16 video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyqyX7jgjZU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyqyX7jgjZU) . For me it shows that the precession of a gyroscope "transfers mass" when the gyroscope has a certain rotary speed in relation to the length of the arm carrying the gyroscope. But this alone only results in a back and forth movement. In addition one has to forcefully move the arm and to restrict the "nodding". Of course I do not know how exactly one has to forcefully move the arm. I suspect it has to be accelerated and decelerated. The restriction of the "nodding" seems to be clear from Fiala's patent and Laurent's replication (it has to "nod" just a few degrees).

I am having "mechanical problems" with my replication. A crude contraption is not enough.


I looked at banggood.com but did not find the particular spinner you use. If you still have it, may be you can provide a link.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on May 11, 2018, 12:54:47 PM
Hi conrad

Nice post thank's

For the spinners, go to Banggood.com, than on the top of the page there is a search line with "all categorie" copy and paste this   


EDC Circular Pattern Fidget Creative Fingers



And you should be OK, chose the one with smooth surface (less air drag) the one in the middle chosing square

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: iacob alex on May 11, 2018, 01:39:33 PM
.....if you like to play some introductory experiments , take a look at : www.geocities.ws/iacob_alex/Disclosed_experiments.html (http://www.geocities.ws/iacob_alex/Disclosed_experiments.html)
     Al_ex
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on May 12, 2018, 12:12:10 PM
Hi all

After e very disturbing night i found this

https://youtu.be/xf1Nt3KLm-U

Seems that Isaac is OK as always, but we have to accept that Eric Laithwaite is also OK with the mass tranfer concept.

Remember at the end of the "Heretic" video, Laithwaite said that all the Newton's law are in line with those Gyro's behaviour, but inertial propulsion can be used in place of a rocket, or something like that.

And if i did not make too much error in this explanation, the question remain in full,   ....How is it possible, what is the mechanical action for this mass transfer. Laithwaite perhaps knew it but saddly he is on the other part of life and certainly laughing LOL.

Hi Al-ex

nice contraptions, are they gyroscopic or only mass moved ?

Hope this helps

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: Hanelore on May 12, 2018, 06:21:22 PM
Hi Laurent,
 
 my crafting skills are rather poor, so I do
 not feel able to build experiments like you.
 
 I would like to emphasize again that one has to
 do the Nasa pendulum test very carefully in
 order to be taken seriously by physicists.
 
 All other tests on earth, which are not suspended similarly to Nasa,
 will be assigned to well-known "stick-slip phenomenon" immediately!
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/stick-slip_phenomenon
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VW1y6isl18
 
 All claimed unidirectional motivators working on wheels I know so far
 failed as they were suspended similarly to Nasa pendulum test...
 
 By the way:
 
 I payed the construction of a Laithwaite-machine
 in 2010, and it worked very good on flat surface.
 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nstIIZZadAM
 
 Nasa pendulum test it failed clearly, but this
 video was never published by the constructor.
 
 Best, Hanelore
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: shadowbones on May 14, 2018, 12:44:01 AM
Dear Woopy,

There is an important difference between moving the center of mass of a device, and achieving thrust. Thrust means a force, which means an acceleration. But the devices you have made so far do not give a sustained acceleration, they simply transfer the center of mass along a line. In order to oppose gravity, as with a pendulum, a sustained acceleration must be created. There may be a way to do that with the principle of "mass transfer" but the engineering is not obvious.

It is incredible that you have achieved propulsion horizontally. It must mean, as Laithwaite said, that the inertia is reduced when the gyro is spinning and precessing. How is it possible that physicists have not noticed your experiment 16? Their blindness boggles my mind.

We should assume that Newton's laws are not violated. Thus momentum is conserved at all times. Let's take that as granted, and reason from there. In experiment 16 for example, conservation of momentum can happen only if the inertial mass is zero (or much less than gravitational mass)!  At rest inertial mass precisely equals gravitational mass though scientists cannot agree on why. When the gyro is spinning and precessing, somehow inertial mass gets much reduced. Since scientists don't have a good explanation for inertia in the first place (Mach's principle?), it is going to be tricky for them to explain how inertia is reduced by a spinning mass. But this phenomenon seems like a very big clue.

Here is an experiment I would very much like to see you do: Our hypothesis is that the inertial mass is reduced during precession. Therefore the kinetic energy must also be reduced because k=1/2 mv2. if you place a pressure transducer in the path of precession and let the gyro collide with it, the force you measure should be much lower than that calculated for a non-spinning gyro moving at the same speed. We can do those calculations based on a few measurements you can easily make.

Laithwaite actually commented on this very point several times. Stopping precession took very little force even for his large gyros.

Incidentally, I think this idea of the inertial mass becoming reduced explains that famous "big gyro lifting over head" phenomenon. Once your arm is opposing gravity and holding the gyro at some level, raising it higher involves accelerating only inertial mass, not more gravitational mass.
But inertial mass is reduced, so the thing is easy to lift higher.

Note that gravitational mass doesn't change at all, so everything weighs the same regardless of spinning/no spinning when it is on a scale.

Kevin
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on May 14, 2018, 05:35:50 PM
Hi Halenore

yep dommage that you can not build a contraption. But it is up to you.

In the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VW1y6isl18 at 0.30 you see clearly the truck toy pushing backwards the substrate on the air table, due to friction of the motorised wheel on the substrate and action and reaction. In my part eight video, it is exactly the same config but my Fiala's device does not push the substrate (which is on steel marbles probabbly better than an air table because no angulation of the surface ) backwards, which clearly mean that the wheels are not motorising , even by the smallest STICK SLIP. My device goes happily forwards in the reference frame, and the substrate stays almost at the same place or eventually it goes slightly FORWARDS.
It is why i think that this test is the best because the Fiala's device needs a flat and smooth surface to exhibit it's capacity in full. On a suspended pendulum of any kind it will not be able to be at it's max capacity. It is as if you decide to test the acceleration rate of a car on ice, it works but the result is not very convincing for sure.
And if you observe attentively, on my test 17, at the end, when the system is stabilised , it seems that the average movement of the pointer is about the outer 12 mm width rim of the reference wheel.At full stop, the pointer is right in the middle, which seems to demonstrate a poor but not null result to me (6 mm offset on 2 meters length suspension line.

Now on the test you payed for. my comments.

1- so far i can see, this system is not in precession at all. It rotate then stops than exhibit a linear translation then stop and  back to beginning. For precessing it must be both together. So i am sorry to think that you are replicating any of Laithwaite's or Fiala's test with this contraption.
2- you test the device on a "billard" table, this is not smooth at all. Than if you should have mounted the device on wheels then placed it on a substrate, and the substrate on steel marbles (not too much touching together ) and all this on a plate of glass perfectly levelled , i bet that you would have got no translation at all. And the Nasa's pendulum test you made after is a normal result.

Finally in the Nasa's report it is written in plain letters that those Gyro propulsion constitute a non viable system. Bu to stay "open".... they  could ...perhaps...be ready... to  change their opinion ... if and only if a Nasa's pendulum test would be positiv and after super solid checking. Other said they will ask always more test and retest, because.......if it would eventually works, the actual physics should need a lifting.

Incredible, they simply don't want to see any thing that could perhaps modernised some portion of their physics. So no chance to convince them. Dommage butso it is. Sorry i have no more time for convincing anybody. I go my way and if i am wrong it will be my fault. Basta !

I have done new test with my latest contraption to check the apparent lack of inertia when a gyro is SPINNING and PRECESSING. Really interesting. And i insist i find each day new stuff , because i have the machine in my hands. And almost at each test my mind is twisted , because i was so sure that the result would be different....facinating and what a fun.

Hope this helps

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on May 14, 2018, 06:03:21 PM
Hi shadow

Nice that you can post now.

Yes  i will try to stick on the fact that Newton is there, i should better say SOMEWHERE in the device.

I have made new test with my little contraption of part 17. Trying to imagine how i could install a system to stop the precession and measure the forces, as you proposed.

I got a big surprise as usual with this gyros,

first i tried to stop the rotation (while the gyro is spinning and precessing) by putting my finger against the rear vertical hinge. And it does not stop the rotation instantly and it was quite a bit of powerfull chock against my finger. Then i do the same directly on the gyro spinning shaft, same result, a strong and long force. Is Laithwaite wrong, did he trick something when he stopped effortless the big orange wheel on the tripod ?
Then i made some reflections and i remembered when Laithwaite put and remove a weight on one of his gyro during the lecture. When he remove the weight, the precession stops instantly.
So i redo my test ad guess what, when i slightly lift the gyro (while of course spinning and precessing, ) it stops instantly and exhibit no inertia.
So if you try to stop the precession by stopping the rotation, you don't stop the precession and you will be propelled away by the really impressivr force.

 But if you slightly lift the gyro it stop to precess and to rotate immediately without inertia. And the same when you release the gyro it goes immediately in precession, i am not sure that it fall at all (to be checked) I would say that if there was no friction, perfect bearing and no dead mass, the gyro goes instantly into precession.

Incredible and once more Prof Eric Laithwaite was right. But Newton is also there, but where and how his he acting?

Speed up your replication you will feel all this in your hands, and remember you will not twist the gyro, the gyro will twist your mind, but for the better.

Laurent
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: telecom on May 14, 2018, 06:14:04 PM
Dear Woopy,

There is an important difference between moving the center of mass of a device, and achieving thrust. Thrust means a force,


Kevin
I think the device is producing trust and force, it is clear from the video.
Also, I don't see  any difference between the gravitational and inertial masses of the gyro,
since it immediately becomes unbalanced.
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: shadowbones on May 14, 2018, 07:35:10 PM
You're right, I should have written "thrust implies a sustained acceleration (a sustained force)".  Imagine Woopy's rowing device on an air table; the device would move to the right, let's say, then stop. even though there was essentially no friction. Then with the next cycle it will move again to the right, then stop. There is positive acceleration at the beginning of each cycle, counterbalanced by a negative acceleration at the end of each cycle, with no acceleration in between cycles. Maybe engineering can get around this, I don't know at this point.
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: telecom on May 14, 2018, 07:44:10 PM
You're right, I should have written "thrust implies a sustained acceleration (a sustained force)".  Imagine Woopy's rowing device on an air table; the device would move to the right, let's say, then stop. even though there was essentially no friction. Then with the next cycle it will move again to the right, then stop. There is positive acceleration at the beginning of each cycle, counterbalanced by a negative acceleration at the end of each cycle, with no acceleration in between cycles. Maybe engineering can get around this, I don't know at this point.
According to the 2nd law, any acceleration implies force.
In this case, thrust in one direction exceeds thrust in another, this is why it eventually moves in the direction of a higher thrust.
Title: Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
Post by: woopy on May 23, 2018, 04:52:48 PM
Hi all
Just some news.
https://youtu.be/Pbb_RnxeYys
hope this helps
Laurent