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Solid States Devices => Resonance Circuits and Systems => Topic started by: Magluvin on October 25, 2017, 01:14:42 PM

Title: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 25, 2017, 01:14:42 PM
I had brought up this subject in a multi recipient pm with MH.  I was trying to get him to see just one example of how resonance can give us a gain in output......


(mh)  "And I think of all the time you idiots have called me an "idiot" or told me that I don't know my stuff and I am faking it or I am a "disinformation agent."  And most of you bloody idiots can't understand a motor passing an inductive kick-back spike to a bloody LC resonator.  And yet you have all spent literally years playing with inductive kick-back spikes and LC resonators.  What the fuck?"

(mags)  "Can you explain why a standard igniton coil with a cap across the points produces a hotter longer lasting spark than without the condenser? Very very simple circuit and some of the diagrams online are incorrect.  Battery, points and primary in series with the condenser across the switch. Polarity of the battery is inconsequential.."

These few pms were between he and I only at this point. I was trying to be friendly, but...  I copy pasted from the pm to make sure what was said is accurate to the T.

Mh had 4-5 others in this pm fest and they all mostly  didnt reply much if any. But he came out and said I was asking him to help me understand it. And that the condnser was some kind of modification to the standard points ign. He twisted my words again with the group. In my question post I stated it was a standard ignition with battery, coil point and condensr and he makes it look like I am adding a cap to make the original circuit different.  Heck I posted what i know about it and why it works at OUR the day or so before I asked MH thins question. Can prove it all.  But he twisted the whole thing around and told everyone that he wasnt going to explain how it works and he is not going to spoon feed me, etc etc. 

He pulled up a depiction to ask if this is what I was talking about and I said yes, those are the 2 circuits.

Then he said this to me first, and then to the group again.





"Here, Magluvin asked me about this standard ignition circuit and why you get a more robust spark when you put a cap across the interrupter switch:

https://cdn.instructables.com/F4Z/QP4N/GC4G94M5/F4ZQP4NGC4G94M5.MEDIUM.gif (https://cdn.instructables.com/F4Z/QP4N/GC4G94M5/F4ZQP4NGC4G94M5.MEDIUM.gif)

I suggested to him that he post it in the thread as a sort of "primer" to see if you guys could figure out exactly why you get a bigger spark when you add the cap.  Right now, I don't think that any of you can explain why.  And that represents a paradox for all of you.  If I am right and none of you can explain the how and why for the modified ignition circuit, then what's the point in discussing the Tesla ozone patent if you don't even understand how the modified ignition circuit works?  What's the point of building and testing a Kapanadze "grenade" coil circuit if you can't even understand the ignition circuit or the ozone patent?"


So here are my response vids.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4aHl8JL2PI&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4aHl8JL2PI&feature=youtu.be)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rlSoAShf2o&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rlSoAShf2o&feature=youtu.be)

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 25, 2017, 01:29:13 PM
In the very short second vid, when with the capacitor connected, you can see it is not just one thin spark like without the cap connected. There are multiple sparks happening during the ring down of the resonant LC. 

There is a gain by way of resonance here.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: citfta on October 25, 2017, 04:05:09 PM
It seems we have a bunch of experts with no real expertise.  The ignition coil circuit is very simple as Mags has said. Lets take it a step at a time.

First the points are closed.  This allows current to flow through the primary of the coil.  When the points open the inductance of the primary now forces the current to flow into the cap.  Since inductance wants to keep the current flowing the cap will charge to a higher voltage than the supply.  Once the inductance has expended all it's energy minus the resistance loses then the cap starts to discharge back through the primary into the source.  Again since the inductance wants to keep the current flowing the cap will discharge until the voltage of the cap is lower than the supply voltage.  And then the supply will reverse the flow again back unto the cap and back and forth it goes until the resistance uses up the energy being supplied by the resonance of the LC circuit formed by the cap and the primary.

If you doubt this, then just put a scope on the primary and watch what happens with and without the cap.  Any old school mechanic will very quickly tell you the system does not work if the cap is removed or goes bad.

Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 25, 2017, 04:41:30 PM
It seems we have a bunch of experts with no real expertise.  The ignition coil circuit is very simple as Mags has said. Lets take it a step at a time.

First the points are closed.  This allows current to flow through the primary of the coil.  When the points open the inductance of the primary now forces the current to flow into the cap.  Since inductance wants to keep the current flowing the cap will charge to a higher voltage than the supply.  Once the inductance has expended all it's energy minus the resistance loses then the cap starts to discharge back through the primary into the source.  Again since the inductance wants to keep the current flowing the cap will discharge until the voltage of the cap is lower than the supply voltage.  And then the supply will reverse the flow again back unto the cap and back and forth it goes until the resistance uses up the energy being supplied by the resonance of the LC circuit formed by the cap and the primary.

If you doubt this, then just put a scope on the primary and watch what happens with and without the cap.  Any old school mechanic will very quickly tell you the system does not work if the cap is removed or goes bad.

Respectfully,
Carroll

Exactly. But, Mh is at it again with resonance of an lc is of no use to us.  Said in pm 2 times that he got an A in pulse circuits.  Haha lol  That is just too much.

But there are actually a lot of mechanics that do not know this today, strangely enough.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 25, 2017, 04:45:48 PM
It seems we have a bunch of experts with no real expertise.  The ignition coil circuit is very simple as Mags has said. Lets take it a step at a time.

First the points are closed.  This allows current to flow through the primary of the coil.  When the points open the inductance of the primary now forces the current to flow into the cap.  Since inductance wants to keep the current flowing the cap will charge to a higher voltage than the supply.  Once the inductance has expended all it's energy minus the resistance loses then the cap starts to discharge back through the primary into the source.  Again since the inductance wants to keep the current flowing the cap will discharge until the voltage of the cap is lower than the supply voltage.  And then the supply will reverse the flow again back unto the cap and back and forth it goes until the resistance uses up the energy being supplied by the resonance of the LC circuit formed by the cap and the primary.

If you doubt this, then just put a scope on the primary and watch what happens with and without the cap.  Any old school mechanic will very quickly tell you the system does not work if the cap is removed or goes bad.

Respectfully,
Carroll

Ooops, forgot.  Im not putting a scope on it. I want his explanation of how Im wrong and to give his imaginary way that it works first.  He wont because he cant.  :P Cant come up with a better reasoning that is.  He does it once again and lays the challenge all on me.  I showed the clear indisputable results that he seemingly cant agree that THE CAP AND COIL RESONATE BECAUSE THATS WHAT LCs DO .  Must have got an F in filter class. ;)

Ive shown him what is and what isnt with the difference.  He would even dispute a scope shot with more imaginary bags of dimwit. Yup.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: citfta on October 25, 2017, 05:02:55 PM


But there are actually a lot of mechanics that do not know this today, strangely enough.

Mags

I worked as a mechanic for many years before switching to electronics.  A lot and I mean a lot of mechanics are just parts swappers.  They just keep putting on new parts until the problem is fixed.  There are only a few that actually know how  to trouble shoot the problem and replace the correct part the first time.  Unfortunately that is now becoming a widespread problem in almost any area of technical repairs.  There are almost no apprentice programs anymore and most instructors nowdays have never gotten any experience in what they teach. If it is not in a book they have no clue.

Carroll
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: ramset on October 25, 2017, 06:13:23 PM
SOooo
you are summoning the ....Milehigh ...back to the front page ??

I'm good with that !! [but its not my call

I still think he should have his own "teaching/discussion" section.

just one mans opinion.

Chet
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: webby1 on October 25, 2017, 10:35:46 PM
I worked as a mechanic for many years before switching to electronics. 
Carroll


Old timers could look at the points and decide which way to change the condenser,, increase or decrease or if it was just right,,,,,  look at the plugs and see if they are too hot or cold,, or just right,, and use a vacuum gauge,,  those were the days,, :)


Mechanics are hard to find,, "technician",, well that is a fancy name for a part swapper :)
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 26, 2017, 02:05:40 PM
It seems we have a bunch of experts with no real expertise.  The ignition coil circuit is very simple as Mags has said. Lets take it a step at a time.

First the points are closed.  This allows current to flow through the primary of the coil.  When the points open the inductance of the primary now forces the current to flow into the cap.  Since inductance wants to keep the current flowing the cap will charge to a higher voltage than the supply.  Once the inductance has expended all it's energy minus the resistance loses then the cap starts to discharge back through the primary into the source.  Again since the inductance wants to keep the current flowing the cap will discharge until the voltage of the cap is lower than the supply voltage.  And then the supply will reverse the flow again back unto the cap and back and forth it goes until the resistance uses up the energy being supplied by the resonance of the LC circuit formed by the cap and the primary.

If you doubt this, then just put a scope on the primary and watch what happens with and without the cap.  Any old school mechanic will very quickly tell you the system does not work if the cap is removed or goes bad.

Respectfully,
Carroll

Hey Carrol

Mh says he has asked you to post here for him. Im going to ask that you dont do that.. If he wants to post here some relevant info, being I am the moderator, I will decide what to allow. But he would need approval from Stefan for me to even see his posts first. Im not going to have this thread to be filled with page after page of his craziness, as you can see in your pms to us 5 or 6 people day in and day out. It will just be a mess.

Besides he is on moderation here for that reason. So I dont believe he should get the privilege to do so using someone elses bus pass, so to speak.

Im done with the pm thing. I got msgs from several others in that group on this and they dont want to see their pms filled every day. It just makes their lists hard to go through just like it does in threads, let alone having to just delete them every day as some have claimed. Who wants all that in their daily lives if not needed. Mh isnt worth it.

Anyway, he is the only one that is disputing my reasoning behind the the caps purpose. I even made a DPDT relay setup with a 1000uf cap across the coil of the relay and set it up to buzz like an old bell, and the cap allows it to hold for a short period, then reset for a quick period, the same as a typical points system. The sparks in the contacts were the same either way with the cap in or out.  I will post my scope shots if MH posts his so called real reason here, that there is more output when the cap is added. But I will not entertain him any further till he does so.

If he wants to post just his explanation of how and why here, whether I think he is right or wrong, I will post it. If he is right then we should accept his answer. And if he is wrong, then i will give my rebuttal. But that will be as far as it goes. Its up to him to do so or not. Im not going to follow his rules. Nobody else seems to want to either.

He only wanted to have it posted here to have an avenue to post in the thread, bypassing his moderation issue. He would definitely be hounding you to post more and more, just as much as he does in pm. It wont stop. So Im pulling the plug on this here and now. If he does not take you guys off of his CC list, I suggest you contact Stefan on the matter

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: norman6538 on October 26, 2017, 02:29:29 PM
It seems we have a bunch of experts with no real expertise.  The ignition coil circuit is very simple as Mags has said. Lets take it a step at a time.

First the points are closed.  This allows current to flow through the primary of the coil.  When the points open the inductance of the primary now forces the current to flow into the cap.  Since inductance wants to keep the current flowing the cap will charge to a higher voltage than the supply.  Once the inductance has expended all it's energy minus the resistance loses then the cap starts to discharge back through the primary into the source.  Again since the inductance wants to keep the current flowing the cap will discharge until the voltage of the cap is lower than the supply voltage.  And then the supply will reverse the flow again back unto the cap and back and forth it goes until the resistance uses up the energy being supplied by the resonance of the LC circuit formed by the cap and the primary.

If you doubt this, then just put a scope on the primary and watch what happens with and without the cap.  Any old school mechanic will very quickly tell you the system does not work if the cap is removed or goes bad.

Respectfully,
Carroll


Many of you know what the coil/cap/points does  in great detail but if you back up to the forest it
will show you another function too.  I learned this when my father's 56 Merc would barely climb up a hill
and get us home but we did get home slowly up hills where the engine needed more power. The trick here
is that RECYCLINNG the current back and forth extends the time of the spark and thus makes a better
burn of the fuel and thus more power and it does it with no additional price to pay. In the 56 Merc case
the condenser was bad and there was spark but not the extended spark to make the extra power needed
to get up the hills easily....You can observe this by a bench setup of the points and coil and cap and then
when the cap is bypassed the spark is there but very thin but when the cap is working the spark is wider and
more visible because it ionizes air beside the original spark and thus looks wider too.
Tesla had quite an effective circuit for this purpose and we use it everyday.

Were it not for the 56 Merc and the bad cap I would not understand this today.

Norman
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 26, 2017, 02:58:25 PM

Many of you know what the coil/cap/points does  in great detail but if you back up to the forest it
will show you another function too.  I learned this when my father's 56 Merc would barely climb up a hill
and get us home but we did get home slowly up hills where the engine needed more power. The trick here
is that RECYCLINNG the current back and forth extends the time of the spark and thus makes a better
burn of the fuel and thus more power and it does it with no additional price to pay. In the 56 Merc case
the condenser was bad and there was spark but not the extended spark to make the extra power needed
to get up the hills easily....You can observe this by a bench setup of the points and coil and cap and then
when the cap is bypassed the spark is there but very thin but when the cap is working the spark is wider and
more visible because it ionizes air beside the original spark and thus looks wider too.
Tesla had quite an effective circuit for this purpose and we use it everyday.

Were it not for the 56 Merc and the bad cap I would not understand this today.

Norman

I said this also in PM arguments.  If the first spark ionizes the air with the first strike, the next spark of the resonant oscillation will have an easier path to jump, and allowing a more robust spark series to continue as the oscillations die down .

Thanks for all your support here guys. MH has a thing against any resonance talk. Well we know better and he is just will not let our true knowledge of the gains Im presenting with this and speakers, so far  ;) , to be brought out. Well here is our chance to explore these things without his disruptions.  Lets do this. I am sure we are on the correct path, if we choose to walk it together. ;D

First work on efficiency, then add resonance, and we should be able to take it over the top and achieve over 100%eff very easily, very soon. And not just in one way only. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: citfta on October 26, 2017, 03:26:09 PM
Hi Mags,

I am out of town and have very limited time to get online. I have only skimmed over the long list of PMs I found when I logged in.  I gather MH wants me to post his views on all this.  But I am not aware of any place he has posted those views and he hasn't shared them with me via PM either.  Anyway I don't have time or the inclination to get involved in all that right now.  So I will NOT be posting anything further about the simple coil, cap and points circuit.

Carroll

A funny side note.  One of my brother in laws who was very much NOT a mechanic was fussing one day about the new points he got.  He said to me "Look at these new points! Their not pointed at all.  They are just as flat as can be."  He was getting ready to try and sharpen them when I explained they were fine.  LOL
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 26, 2017, 03:29:09 PM
Hi Mags,

I am out of town and have very limited time to get online. I have only skimmed over the long list of PMs I found when I logged in.  I gather MH wants me to post his views on all this.  But I am not aware of any place he has posted those views and he hasn't shared them with me via PM either.  Anyway I don't have time or the inclination to get involved in all that right now.  So I will NOT be posting anything further about the simple coil, cap and points circuit.

Carroll

A funny side note.  One of my brother in laws who was very much NOT a mechanic was fussing one day about the new points he got.  He said to me "Look at these new points! Their not pointed at all.  They are just as flat as can be."  He was getting ready to try and sharpen them when I explained they were fine.  LOL

ok  thanks  ;)

And that points story was very funny. :D :D

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: norman6538 on October 26, 2017, 04:42:22 PM
mags said
I said this also in PM arguments.  If the first spark ionizes the air with the first strike, the next spark of the resonant oscillation will have an easier path to jump, and allowing a more robust spark series to continue as the oscillations die down .

Thanks for all your support here guys. MH has a thing against any resonance talk. Well we know better and he is just will not let our true knowledge of the gains Im presenting with this and speakers, so far  (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/wink.gif) , to be brought out. Well here is our chance to explore these things without his disruptions.  Lets do this. I am sure we are on the correct path, if we choose to walk it together. (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/grin.gif)

First work on efficiency, then add resonance, and we should be able to take it over the top and achieve over 100%eff very easily, very soon. And not just in one way only. (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

Mags

The problem I have with what you said it this....
In the case of the ign coil you do get a far better spark for no additional price. and if that is what you want
then great but when you want something else like power a light bulb - it does not get OU. Its great if you
stay in that box but outside that box it fails. Another example of this is the Bedini school girl motor.
The motor runs with good efficiency and it also extends ( like the cap extends the spark ) the runtime
of the motor by putting the otherwise wasted current back into the battery but as in the spark and RLC circuits - it
winds down. So the Bedini motor will run and power something and also charge something else at the
same time but its not enough to loop back to itself and continue running.
So with the Bedini motor you can run it to do work and also light a light bulb to see what you are doing.

It took me years to figure this all out.

Norman
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 26, 2017, 05:29:20 PM
mags said
I said this also in PM arguments.  If the first spark ionizes the air with the first strike, the next spark of the resonant oscillation will have an easier path to jump, and allowing a more robust spark series to continue as the oscillations die down .

Thanks for all your support here guys. MH has a thing against any resonance talk. Well we know better and he is just will not let our true knowledge of the gains Im presenting with this and speakers, so far  (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/wink.gif) , to be brought out. Well here is our chance to explore these things without his disruptions.  Lets do this. I am sure we are on the correct path, if we choose to walk it together. (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/grin.gif)

First work on efficiency, then add resonance, and we should be able to take it over the top and achieve over 100%eff very easily, very soon. And not just in one way only. (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

Mags

The problem I have with what you said it this....
In the case of the ign coil you do get a far better spark for no additional price. and if that is what you want
then great but when you want something else like power a light bulb - it does not get OU. Its great if you
stay in that box but outside that box it fails. Another example of this is the Bedini school girl motor.
The motor runs with good efficiency and it also extends ( like the cap extends the spark ) the runtime
of the motor by putting the otherwise wasted current back into the battery but as in the spark and RLC circuits - it
winds down. So the Bedini motor will run and power something and also charge something else at the
same time but its not enough to loop back to itself and continue running.
So with the Bedini motor you can run it to do work and also light a light bulb to see what you are doing.

It took me years to figure this all out.

Norman

Here is something I explained in my other thread on speakers...

We need to start with a very efficient system or device, then when we add resonance to the device, we can get more efficiency.  If the device is say upper 90% eff, then the gain by adding resonance can take us over the top.

And Something else I explained in that thread is when we increase the number of drivers in the device, we increase output without increasing input.

A speaker that is 112db@1w sensitivity is 100% eff in Pin/Pae out.  This info is not widely known in the least. And there are speakers out there with this 112db@1w sensitivity rating. My friend is sending me some links of sites with speakers that are up to 117db@1w sensitivity.

Now if I have a 96db@1w sensitivity rated speaker, we are at 2.5%eff.  Seems unreal actually, being the speaker motor assy is a coreless motor of which are super eff.

So now we increase the number of drivers by doubling each time. We gain 3db for each doubling of drivers, while the total input remains at 1w in for each case

1 speaker  96db@1w  total input


2 speakers  99db@1w  total input


4 speakers  102db@1w  total input


8 speakers  105db@1w  total input


16 speakers  108db@1w  total input


32 speakers  111db@1w  total input     Just 1 db under100%eff.

So where does this gain come from?  Run the numbers on any speaker response graphing software and you will see it is true. I and many professionals use free WinIsd   it is accurate and does the job with ease.

64 speakers 114db@1w total   157%eff of Pin/Pae     Power in measured in Watts and Pae measured in Watts. Watts do not take on a different definition for each.

So now lets say we have 32 speakers 111db@1w and we put them in a ported enclosure tuned to say 60hz. at 60hz we will obtain even more gain by way of resonance of the tuned enclosure. All still at 1w..  You can read that thread for more on this.

The Ign coil is probably very inefficient. The one I used in the vid is no where near 100%eff.  Lol just the losses in the outer can can be very apparent if you think on it.

The ign coil example just shows the gain by way of resonance added to the existing system by adding the cap. I am in no way saying that the output spark is over 100%eff with the input.  it is just a resonance gain example.  Now if we had a more useful job for the output of the secondary, then we should look to improve the efficiency of that transformer before adding resonance to take it over the top.

On the speaker thread we have a  guy that tried measuring the output of a pulse motor starting with 1 coil then 2, then 4 then finally 8, all while adjusting the input to the same power input for each case.. You can read his results he discovered there. So we already have someone that can confirm the claim I am making on that.

Not saying we need to use speakers to make an OU device. If we examine the speakers eff and resonance activities, then we should try to use that as a basis for designing circuit to accomplish the same.  Adding drivers by doubling, we already have a path to ou. Its there, just keep doubling. Resonance can help us get further without doubling drivers any further.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on October 26, 2017, 05:34:03 PM
This discussion references the two schematics for ignition circuits in the link below:

https://cdn.instructables.com/F4Z/QP4N/GC4G94M5/F4ZQP4NGC4G94M5.MEDIUM.gif

The circuit on the right gives the weaker spark and its operation is fairly simple.  A certain time after the switch closes the current flowing trough the primary reaches its maximum.  When the switch opens the current wants to keep flowing in the same direction.  Another way of stating that is that there is a certain amount of magnetic energy stored in the core and it has to go somewhere when the switch opens.  There are two paths for the energy, the primary coil and the secondary coil.  Since the secondary coil is many many turns, it develops a very high voltage and the magnetic energy leaves the coil via the secondary coil in a high-voltage spark to ground.  The "spark" is actually a short-lived air plasma "burn" that conducts electricity.  When the energy in the magentic core is depleted the plasma shuts down.

The amount of energy in the spark discharge is simply 1/2 L i-squared based on the primary coil.

The circuit on the left includes a capacitor, sometimes called a condenser, and this circuit generates a much stronger spark.  The operation of this circuit is more complicated and much different than the simpler circuit.  The action of this circuit can be called a "direct battery-plasma reaction."

When the swicth first opens there is a certain amount of magentic energy in the core that has to go somewhere.  One more time, the very high voltage secondary initiates a plasma spark just like for the simpler circuit.  However, here is where things change.  The conducting plasma on the end of the high-voltage coil to ground is a de facto temporary load resistor to ground.  The battery sees this "plasma load resistor" through the action of the "direct battery-plasma reaction."   The ignition coil acts like a conventional step-up transfomer.  This step-up transformer only exists while the plasma burn is taking place.  The battery is across the primary (with the capacitor in series).  The "plasma resistor" is across the seondary.  Since it is a high-voltage step-up transformer, the impedance of the "plasma resistor" is very low from the perspective of the primary and thus the battery, perhaps less than one ohm.  Therefore, the battery starts pumping current into the primary and adding magnetic energy to the ignition coil core.  That magnetic energy is output via the high voltage coil into the "plasma resistor."  So, in summary, the inital spark generated by the opening of the switch allows the battery to start directly discharging into the "plasma resistor" via the ignition coil acting like a step-up transformer.  This is the "direct battery-plasma reaction."

Note that this "direct battery-plasma reaction" would not happen if the capacitor wasn't there to complete the current loop allowing the battery to pump power into the primary.  Without the capacitor in place, no battery current can flow, the battery never sees the plasma spark as a "plasma load resistor," and the plasma spark cannot get more energetic.

Now let's just look at the current loop (going counter-clockwise) formed by the battery (assume 12 volts), the primary, and the capacitor.  When the switch first opens, the capacitor has zero volts across it and the coil is at +12 volts on the bottom and zero volts at the top.  When the switch first opens, the polarity across the primary coil would normally reverse, but it can't reverse in this case because the voltage across the coil is clamped by the low-impedance battery voltage source of 12 volts and the zero-impedance capacitor voltage source of zero volts.  We can also clearly see that the current is going to flow counter-clockwise through the loop.  We also know that it is the battery that is supplying the extra power to make the plasma spark stronger and longer lasting. Effectively, the battery will pump power INTO the primary coil when current starts to flow.  Current flows into the bottom of the primary coil and out the top and the voltage across the primary coil drops as you go from the bottom to the top.  By definition the battery is pumping power into the coil.  This power that the battery is pumping into the primary coil has to go somewhere, and it goes into the "plasma resistor."  Very shortly after as the plasma is initially "ignited" by the opening of the switch, the plasma becomes a "plasma load resistor" for the battery through the "direct battery-plasma reaction."

Let's assume for example that the "plasma resistor" looks like a 0.5 ohm resistor as seen by the primary because of the step-up transformer.  Therefore the instant the battery starts conducting and pumpiing power into the plasma, the power level is 24 amps x 12 volts = 288 watts.  That sounds like a lot of power, but it starts decreasing right away and the whole cycle will only last for a short time.

As the battery conducts and pumps power into the plasma, it is also pumping power into the capacitor and charging it up.  Higher voltages on the capacitor will also lower the current flow.  Note once the current in the loop starts flowing the voltage across the capacitor starts at zero volts and starts climbing and the voltage across the coil starts at twelve volts and starts falling.  Therefore, initially, 100% of the supplied battery power goes into the "plasma resistor."  A short time later when the capacitor has charged to say three volts, then there is nine volts across the primary and 75% of the supplied battery power goes into the primary (and then straight into the "plasma resistor") and 25% of the supplied battery power goes into the capacitor.

Within a short time, the capacitor approaches 12 volts and the battery is pumping almost no power into the primary.  Therefore the plasma shuts down and the spark cycle is terminated.  The loop returns back to it's intital conditions before the switch was closed; the capacitor having 12 volts across it and the primary not conducting and therefore having is zero volts across it.

If the above explanation is correct, then the reason the spark is bigger with the added capacitor is that the capacitor completes the circuit that allows the battery to discharge directly into the plasma via the coil acting as a step-up transformer.  The plasma creates a resistor and the battery discharges through this "plasma resistor" until the capacitor reaches a high enough voltage to shut down the "direct battery-plasma reaction."  There may be some secondary voltage ringing artifacts observed, but these will have nothing to do with the actual plasma burn.  To verify this, a small loop of wire could be carefully placed near the high voltage circuit to act as a pick-up coil that detects the "ticks" on a scope that show the start of the plasma burn and the end of the plasma burn.  A second scope channel could look at the voltage increasing on the capacitor.  The assumption is that you would see a "plasma start burn tick" just as the capacitor voltage starts to rise and an "plasma end burn tick" when the capacitor voltage approaches 12 volts.  If any secondary ringing is observed, the assumption is that the ringing will not be directly related to the "direct battery-plasma reaction."

So, the instant after the switch opens, when you look at the capacitor voltage, you will see it start at zero volts and end at 12 volts.  When you look at the primary voltage, you will see it start at 12 volts and end at zero volts.  There will be no ringing or resonance, rather there wil just be singular rises and falls of voltage in the primary circuit - a "one shot."  This is a classic pulse circuit action.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 26, 2017, 06:23:46 PM
Looked it over in pm and it looks good.  Have 2 maybe issues though. Gota get to work.  Ill read again later. But others can go over it in the mean time.

Ill do a vid for the scope shot so it is shown done then and there. There is a ring down in the shot.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 26, 2017, 06:29:24 PM
Ok, just looked at the circuits he provided and they are definitely correct. Im not sure that the battery currents in the plasma of the spark is the way things would happen. The output of the sec is through the spark plug to the engine block to gnd.   If someone can look that over while Im out to see if Im right, Id like a second opinion.

Be back tonight.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: norman6538 on October 26, 2017, 11:08:53 PM
Mags in your last post you said it very well but where is that speaker discussion?
Norman
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 27, 2017, 01:56:31 AM
Ok. reading over Mhs post, One of the first things I noticed was the battery polarity used. Now I can say that the 2 circuits are incorrect in that sense. The Neg should be at the bottom of the batt and coil and Pos at the top. It doesnt make a difference in how the circuit works here though. I didnt think on the + and - before, but i see it now...Nobodys fault but the guy who drew it up. ;D Wasnt Mh n wasnt me.

"The action of this circuit can be called a "direct battery-plasma reaction."

When the swicth first opens there is a certain amount of magentic energy in the core that has to go somewhere.  One more time, the very high voltage secondary initiates a plasma spark just like for the simpler circuit.  However, here is where things change.  The conducting plasma on the end of the high-voltage coil to ground is a de facto temporary load resistor to ground.  The battery sees this "plasma load resistor" through the action of the "direct battery-plasma reaction."   The ignition coil acts like a conventional step-up transfomer.  This step-up transformer only exists while the plasma burn is taking place.  The battery is across the primary (with the capacitor in series).  The "plasma resistor" is across the seondary.  Since it is a high-voltage step-up transformer, the impedance of the "plasma resistor" is very low from the perspective of the primary and thus the battery, perhaps less than one ohm.  Therefore, the battery starts pumping current into the primary and adding magnetic energy to the ignition coil core.  That magnetic energy is output via the high voltage coil into the "plasma resistor."  So, in summary, the inital spark generated by the opening of the switch allows the battery to start directly discharging into the "plasma resistor" via the ignition coil acting like a step-up transformer.  This is the "direct battery-plasma reaction."



Mmmm, Im not buying it..  The primary gets charged up, or to say the field builds while the switch is closed, When the field collapses, that collapsing field is what induces the secondary producing high voltage across the secondary. Now what it looks like you are saying is that the secondary being induced, then producing the spark, causes current from the battery to flow through the cap and into the primary once more while the switch is open, and reinduces the secondary more? All on battery potential(voltage) alone??  Through a .14uf cap to produce an even bigger, more robust spark than the initial field collapse? ??? ?   lol  let me read it again here and now before I go on.........  ok, i have to tear this apart bit by bit.  It is not the reason at all that there is a bigger, stronger spark. way off.....


Ok, bit by bit.. from just the paragraph above from part of his explanation..... First, I have to say that it is not a cut and paste. Thats good. If it were from a reputable source there wouldnt be spelling errors,  just sayin..  I make these errors a lot also.. no biggy

"When the swicth first opens there is a certain amount of magentic energy in the core that has to go somewhere.  One more time, the very high voltage secondary initiates a plasma spark just like for the simpler circuit. " 

Ok, I can ride with that part....


" However, here is where things change.  The conducting plasma on the end of the high-voltage coil to ground is a de facto temporary load resistor to ground.  The battery sees this "plasma load resistor" through the action of the "direct battery-plasma reaction."   

Ok.  This "direct battery-plasma reaction"  Where do I see a source for that phrase?    Id like to see the source. I do a search, it shows these first results in the Pic 1 below.... it has quotation marks as if it were implied as it were a phrase from some other source, or is it just a new phrase you made up??? ??? If so.. ::)


"This step-up transformer only exists while the plasma burn is taking place."

Ok I can roll with that one also. If there is no load on the sec other than when the spark is live, then transformer 'reactions" between the prim and sec is not involved, yet.


"The battery is across the primary (with the capacitor in series).  The "plasma resistor" is across the seondary.  Since it is a high-voltage step-up transformer, the impedance of the "plasma resistor" is very low from the perspective of the primary and thus the battery, perhaps less than one ohm. "

The plasma resistor less than one ohm is 'perhaps' speculation, but we will ride with that for you.


" Therefore, the battery starts pumping current into the primary and adding magnetic energy to the ignition coil core.  That magnetic energy is output via the high voltage coil into the "plasma resistor."

Pumping?? Through the .14uf cap?  From a 12v source, through the .14uf cap, the primary is getting pumped due to the sec action of powering the load???
Before I show the scope shots, tell me something. What do you think the max peak voltages across the cap might be in the time period after the switch opens?  More than 12v? Only positive voltage reading? Only a negative voltage reading?  A peak to peak AC voltage reading? ??? ;) Ill show you which one it is soon enough. Ide be interested in your answer on this before I do the vid..... 

"So, in summary, the inital spark generated by the opening of the switch allows the battery to start directly discharging into the "plasma resistor" via the ignition coil acting like a step-up transformer.  This is the "direct battery-plasma reaction."

Ugh. Thats just terrible.  If this were to occur and there is no resonant oscillation there as you have been arguing, then it must be just a forward current from start to finish through the cap. And if it is only a forward current during this pumping as you stipulate, again, what voltage would you expect across the cap at the end of this pumping when the spark stops conducting?

Ok.  Im finished for now with that portion of your explanation. Lets move on to another portion.... Here is where things go wrong based on the above portion....


"Note that this "direct battery-plasma reaction" would not happen if the capacitor wasn't there to complete the current loop allowing the battery to pump power into the primary.  Without the capacitor in place, no battery current can flow, the battery never sees the plasma spark as a "plasma load resistor," and the plasma spark cannot get more energetic.

If what you say is so,  when the primary generated field first collapses when the switch is opened, this collapsing field was built on a high input current from the battery through the switch over a longer time period than when the switch is off. Lets say that the field built by either circuit primary, cap or no cap, would be the same strength by the time the switch is to be opened.  During the field collapse just after the switch opens, lets just say the spark jumps from the top of the secondary to gnd through the spark plug, just for example. Field collapse, spark to gnd. Now when this so called  "direct battery-plasma reaction" begins, and as you say the battery starts 'pumping' the primary through the .14uf cap, the field would now be building and no longer collapsing. That would indicate that the sec spark must have to reverse direction from gnd through the spark plug and to the top the terminal of the coil.  Secondly, if the the battery is 'pumping' this DC through the .14uf cap, just how much field power would be had from that?  12v through the .14uf into the primary. That primary will take on heavy currents whether the sec was loaded or not. And if you think 12v potential from the battery through the cap is even enough to induce the hv necessary to even keep the spark alive, then your way off the deep end. You may as well charge the .14uf to 12v and discharge it across the primary and see the nothingness that you get from the secondary by doing so. Because from what you are saying, that is all that will happen during this so called "pumping"   More like a micro pip than a pump.   ::)   

So your story is not adding up at all so far. Not to be rude or evil as you call me, but you dont even know what your talking about and your making up these fantastical names like " "direct battery-plasma reaction" that dont even exist all just to falsely dispute the resonant actions that I claim.

Truly I can stop right here with only taking apart just 2 portions of your alternative explanation to my resonance gain claim, and it is clear you dont get this simple circuit...  To me it is simple. Tk said earlier today in his first post there on this, that it needs to be more closely looked at and using the scientific method to really find out what is going on.  Well then carry on with all that. I will lay down the cash that says Im correct in my 'resonance gives the gain' here in the end. But I can say one thing at this time. That big project of testing as Tk states is necessary here, will definitely not have the outcome in your favor here MH. 

Ok. Let me look over some more of his explanation post to see what more is there to be seen....   Im just doing this on the fly here. I have to work more tonight.....


Ahh, this is one that answers my earlier question...... ;)


"As the battery conducts and pumps power into the plasma, it is also pumping power into the capacitor and charging it up.  Higher voltages on the capacitor will also lower the current flow.  Note once the current in the loop starts flowing the voltage across the capacitor starts at zero volts and starts climbing and the voltage across the coil starts at twelve volts and starts falling.  Therefore, initially, 100% of the supplied battery power goes into the "plasma resistor."  A short time later when the capacitor has charged to say three volts, then there is nine volts across the primary and 75% of the supplied battery power goes into the primary (and then straight into the "plasma resistor") and 25% of the supplied battery power goes into the capacitor.

Within a short time, the capacitor approaches 12 volts and the battery is pumping almost no power into the primary.  Therefore the plasma shuts down and the spark cycle is terminated.  The loop returns back to it's intital conditions before the switch was closed; the capacitor having 12 volts across it and the primary not conducting and therefore having is zero volts across it."


Ok.  Why would I have asked what voltage level would be in the cap when the spark stops earlier??? Could it have been because of what I have seen in the scope shots? ??? ;)   For MH to avoid admitting that there is an ac resonance between the cap and the primary, he needs to instill the thought that 'only' forward  DC current actions(constant, variable or pulsed) are happening in the circuit, from one end of the circuit to the other and from the beginning of the operation cycle to the end of the operation cycle. . In order to try and falsify the resonance oscillations I claim exist, he has put together his explanation in a complete and only DC current format. He cant have an AC oscillation in his explanation or he would have to explain why the ac was produced during the circuit operation. ;)   And again, this explanation is shot.   lets see what else is in there.....

Oh boy..  Some doozies here...


"If the above explanation is correct, then the reason the spark is bigger with the added capacitor is that the capacitor completes the circuit that allows the battery to discharge directly into the plasma via the coil acting as a step-up transformer.  The plasma creates a resistor and the battery discharges through this "plasma resistor" until the capacitor reaches a high enough voltage to shut down the "direct battery-plasma reaction."  There may be some secondary voltage ringing artifacts observed, but these will have nothing to do with the actual plasma burn.  To verify this, a small loop of wire could be carefully placed near the high voltage circuit to act as a pick-up coil that detects the "ticks" on a scope that show the start of the plasma burn and the end of the plasma burn.  A second scope channel could look at the voltage increasing on the capacitor.  The assumption is that you would see a "plasma start burn tick" just as the capacitor voltage starts to rise and an "plasma end burn tick" when the capacitor voltage approaches 12 volts.  If any secondary ringing is observed, the assumption is that the ringing will not be directly related to the "direct battery-plasma reaction."


Firstly, saying the battery is discharging directly into the plasma is not correct in the least. This is what i caught earlier today and the language misled me to take it literally. As you can see in my previous post.  Literally or not, that shortcut to writing it all out as to why the battery could see the spark as a load is a bad way of putting it. Its like saying there isnt anything at at all between the battery and the spark itself...

Says there may be some secondary ringing 'artifacts' observed....  Well what do you consider artifacts in that statement? I mean like when we were talking about bifi pancake coils and we were measuring the capacitance of our coils, you were very adamant that that the effects of those increased capacitance's would be so insignificant. My pancake made of flat speaker wire capacitance was .016uf, yet here the .14uf cap is able to allow 'pumping of currents from the 12v battery into the primary. ??? ??? ??? ???   So here we have your description of "There may be some secondary voltage ringing artifacts observed but these will have nothing to do with the actual plasma burn".  of course they wouldnt in your explanation, as long as it denies the idea of resonance gain. More on that in a bit...

Then you say this... "To verify this, a small loop of wire could be carefully placed near the high voltage circuit to act as a pick-up coil that detects the "ticks" on a scope that show the start of the plasma burn and the end of the plasma burn.".   Maybe it would show 'something'.  But what about measuring the primary with the scope? Wouldnt want to do that as that is where I say the oscillation originates when the cap is involved as an LC that can have resonant oscillations!!   ;)   Remember people, he is deftly against any talk of resonance. He cannot have it in his explanation and the main directive in his creation of the work of word art is that resonance cant be accounted for in order to deny its existence at all costs.  ;) I know him. It is the truth. years of these arguments. Making up stuff like all of this to discredit me and others. This is one prime example here in his post. it is all fantasy.. Would anyone here agree?  Now. Does it seem like he knows this circuit better than me?? Nobody has to answer. Im just saying it aloud.  It is a butcher job to falsely argue my knowledge of this circuit. Clearly.  ;) ;) ;) ;)


And lastly we have this statement in the end of his explanation post......


"So, the instant after the switch opens, when you look at the capacitor voltage, you will see it start at zero volts and end at 12 volts.  When you look at the primary voltage, you will see it start at 12 volts and end at zero volts.  There will be no ringing or resonance, rather there wil just be singular rises and falls of voltage in the primary circuit - a "one shot."  This is a classic pulse circuit action."

Again a complete deliberate dump on the possibility of resonant oscillations when the cap and coil join together when the switch opens. Here is the big problem in that narrative. He is neglecting the value of the cap. This isnt some 10uf cap. If we were to measure the inductance of the primary and write it down, and measure the cap and write it down, then do an LC circuit calculation....

So I did 2 things. I measured the primary inductance. 5.79mh  Then I shorted the sec, just to be thorough. .9mh  The cap is .14uf  Run the calculator...

5.79mh and .14uf   5.59khz

.9mh and   .14uf   14.17khz

So lets look at something here,,

If it were even an 8 cyl engine, then we calculate how long the switch is open during a 6000rpm run, again to shorten the time factor for MHs advantage.  So we get 4 firings per revolution for a 4 stroke motor.  So over a minutes time, 6000rpm times 4 sparks per rev is 24000 sparks per min, divided by 60sec would be 400 firings per second. Lets just for sake of argument that the switch is on 50% of the time and off 50% of the time. 400 firings fer second. 50% on time would be 1.25ms closed time and 1.25ms of open time.

At 5.59khz each cycle would occur every .1727ms.  And when the sec is loaded, 14.17khz, each cycle would happen every .070ms

So if the switch opens and the battery sees a primary with its inductance reduced due to the loaded secondary, which would lower the inductance of the primary to .9mh, then the time that the battery has to fill the cap is only .07ms, out of the total switch open time of 1.25ms.  If someone thinks Im off then please correct me. i am tired here, but i wen over it and I believe it is correct. In my current state of mind :o :o :o

So think about that tiny amount of time the battery has to charge the cap to 12v as Mh says.  Is that going to help perpetuate the 'magnetic energy' in anyway of keeping the spark arching like he says?  Like I said, charge the .14uf cap to 12v and dump it across the primary. Id feel safe to put my meter across the sec with such tiny input.

Its all wrong for many reasons.   So what now MH??  You really have not proved anything with all that.  It ignores any possibility of the cap and primary having any resonance ring of which my last part here shows there is enough time for many many oscillations to occur by way of the LC properties presented.
Heck I might have thought you might see the cap at least be charged above 12v when the switch opens and your loaded sec makes the batt 'pump' the primary through the cap. But you dont even include any freewheel effect of the inductance to do just that and charge the cap above 12v. Like the whole circuit is damped to the hilt to avoid any oscillations to occur. Its just nuts man.  And you slammed me and others here for our understanding of it all and then you present this pile of imaginary fantasy land junk as your claim I am wrong and you are right?  What? You did say there, what, "If the above explanation is correct..."  if that is you saying it may be wrong, do you want another chance at it? Or are you sticking with it???

Sorry to seem harsh but the way you go about it all and claim for days that you  know how it works and I dont, but clearly here you show that you dont know at all what is going on and add imaginary jargon and force the ideas that it can only be dc currents in the system but maybe some artifacts of ringing. Dang dude. Im not impressed in the least. If I didnt know better, eh, but I do. You designed the whole 'story' to be completely depleted of any working AC current actions as if it were all just a big bunch of carbon resistors and that a cap and coil cannot oscillate. Then the incredible .14uf cap that can allow the coil to be pumped buy the battery while the cap only ever reaches 12v at the end of the pump. You know better than that.  From past argument experience with you, that .14uf is an insignificant amount of capacitance, but now it seems to be very significant to suit your needs.   You said in pm that my explanation of the circuit is a big fail.  Same to you bud. ;)

Whew. That was a long session. ;D i feel like I was possessed by Watts here, in terms of making a long post..   ;D
Mags

edited....Corrected a ms figure that I had too many 0s in
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 27, 2017, 01:57:46 AM
Mags in your last post you said it very well but where is that speaker discussion?
Norman

Thanks  ;)

http://overunity.com/17475/exploring-resonance-and-efficiency-of-speakers-and-subwoofers/msg512204/#new

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 27, 2017, 02:29:52 AM



"When the swicth first opens there is a certain amount of magentic energy in the core that has to go somewhere.  One more time, the very high voltage secondary initiates a plasma spark just like for the simpler circuit. " 

Ok, I can ride with that part, except for.....

You say the magnetic field has to go somewhere when the switch is opened...  Here you are neglecting that the collapsing field can induce the primary also. The secondary is not the only coil in the container and the battery with the switch open is no longer in opposition to collapse current flow from the primary as it will have a much higher voltage from the collapse than the battery voltage.  This is where the cap gets charged to a higher voltage than 12v. The cap can be  rated at up to 630v AC.  HMM why is that I wonder?? ;)   630v vs 12v?  AC?  Strange isnt it?   Seems like a strange rating for a cap that would only encounter max voltage provided by the battery as MH says in his explanation...... :o ;)   If there is only the dc currents and no ac or any resonant oscillations, except the little ringing artifacts in the secondary as Mh claims, then why the need for a cap with such ratings?..  Doesnt look good here at all dude, Doesnt look good..  I tell you time and again the I will beat you with your own words. And here you provide a lot of material for me to do so.  In the least it shows you do not understand the circuit, the operations of inductance and the operations of the cap per its value and its ratings. In the worst case you do know how it works and try to discredit me and my claims at any cost with inmaginary fake news explanations. And finally you completely neglect the LC circuit that forms when the switch opens. You made big fun of Tesla and insulted his intelligence in Pm and in other threads in the past. You need to go back and let his writings teach you some things. ;)


Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 27, 2017, 02:47:45 AM


"When the swicth first opens there is a certain amount of magentic energy in the core that has to go somewhere.  One more time, the very high voltage secondary initiates a plasma spark just like for the simpler circuit. " 

Ok, I can ride with that part, except for.....

You say the magnetic field has to go somewhere when the switch is opened...  Here you are neglecting that the collapsing field can induce the primary also. The secondary is not the only coil in the container and the battery with the switch open is no longer in opposition to collapse current flow from the primary as it will have a much higher voltage from the collapse than the battery voltage.  This is where the cap gets charged to a higher voltage than 12v. The cap can be  rated at up to 630v AC.  HMM why is that I wonder?? ;)   630v vs 12v?  AC?  Strange isnt it?   Seems like a strange rating for a cap that would only encounter max voltage provided by the battery as MH says in his explanation...... :o ;)   If there is only the dc currents and no ac or any resonant oscillations, except the little ringing artifacts in the secondary as Mh claims, then why the need for a cap with such ratings?..  Doesnt look good here at all dude, Doesnt look good..  I tell you time and again the I will beat you with your own words. And here you provide a lot of material for me to do so.  In the least it shows you do not understand the circuit, the operations of inductance and the operations of the cap per its value and its ratings. In the worst case you do know how it works and try to discredit me and my claims at any cost with inmaginary fake news explanations. And finally you completely neglect the LC circuit that forms when the switch opens. You made big fun of Tesla and insulted his intelligence in Pm and in other threads in the past. You need to go back and let his writings teach you some things. ;)


Mags

Now, when the primary collapse currents charge the cap to a high voltage(in the hundreds of volts), what will happen then? It will then discharge back into the primary and build the field again with a more robust field build due to the much higher voltage than the battery can provide, and then the field collapses again and charges the cap, then again the cap discharges into the coil, etc etc till the oscillation dies off. That is the effect of the resonant action that keeps the spark going longer and stronger. It is a gain by way of resonance compared to the circuit without the cap. ;)

Bing. Finished. bada boom and bada bing. and bada boom then bada bing.  Ringy ding ding.  lol

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on October 27, 2017, 04:23:35 AM
Now, when the primary collapse currents charge the cap to a high voltage(in the hundreds of volts), what will happen then? It will then discharge back into the primary and build the field again with a more robust field build due to the much higher voltage than the battery can provide, and then the field collapses again and charges the cap, then again the cap discharges into the coil, etc etc till the oscillation dies off. That is the effect of the resonant action that keeps the spark going longer and stronger. It is a gain by way of resonance compared to the circuit without the cap. ;)

Bing. Finished. bada boom and bada bing. and bada boom then bada bing.  Ringy ding ding.  lol

Mags

Nobody should count their chickens before they're hatched, don't you think?  I drew up my explanation for how the ignition circuit works without doing a single Google search.  It's simply fun to try to work things out in your head without relying on your computer.

And since my description involved a simple pulse circuit with a "one shot" mode, I could get away with describing the operation in text and have it such that a reader could follow along.  You, on the other hand, have done no such thing.  You haven't defined the full operation of the circuit, and in your case it really requires a timing diagram.  It also requires a description of the start of the "resonance" the voltages and currents, when the plasma burns take place, and so on and so forth.  You have done nothing like that and you are no place to claim anything.  If you want to be serious, then you have to up your game.  Compare my description of the circuit operation with your description which is nothing more than something like sports colour commentary.  And your "explanation" is arguably for a circuit operation which is more complicated than mine.

After reading your comments, especially about the high-voltage spec for the condenser, I knew right away my explanation could not be correct.  So I finally decided to do some searching.  Ordinary searches on ignition circuits yielded nothing.  So I searched on "role of the condenser in an ignition system" and I found this:

http://www.austin7club.org/Ignition%20Condensors.htm (http://www.austin7club.org/Ignition%20Condensors.htm)

<<<  This information was taken from a Delco Remy electrical equipment book.  >>

<<<
Technical Talk – Ignition Condensors

Basically the function of a condenser in a coil ignition circuit is to reduce the spark at the contact points as they open in the distributor and thus minimise burning and pitting of the points. Arcing is caused by the effect of self induction in the coil as the points interrupt the flow of current. The resultant collapse of the magnetic field produces a high voltage to be generated in the primary winding which then tends to flow across the points, thus causing burning or pitting. This current flows into the condenser and charges it as the points open the rapid collapse of the magnetic field produces this high voltage in the primary windings, which can be as high as 250 volts. This further charges the condenser and the consequent collapse of the field causes a high voltage to be induced in every turn of both primary and secondary windings. As the secondary winding has about 100 times the number of turns of the primary, the voltage can reach as high as 25000 volts. Normally this voltage is not reached as it is limited by various factors such as point gap, compression, engine revs. Etc. so only sufficient voltage is produced to produce a spark at the plug. As the spark is produced at the plug gap the energy in the coil, stored in the form of magnetic flux, begins to drain from the coil through the secondary circuit thus sustaining the spark for a fraction of a second or several degrees of crankshaft revolution. During this interval the condenser discharges back through the primary winding producing an oscillation of the current flow in the primary circuit for the brief interval that is required for the primary circuit to return to a state of equilibrium. The condenser DOES NOT DISCHARGE UNTIL AFTER the spark has occurred at the spark plug.  >>>

So here are my thoughts:

1.  Clearly, when the secondary starts to discharge into the plasma, the voltage on the primary goes up and the voltage is not clamped by the battery and the capacitor like I stated.

2.  The primary generates a good jolt of EMF during the plasma burn that could charge the capacitor in the area of 250 volts.  This means some of the magnetic energy in the core does not get burned off in the plasma, it also charges the capacitor.  So if there is even less available energy in the core, how does the spark get stronger?

3.  Note that the battery and the strong EMF from the primary are still working together - the voltages add and both the battery and the primary want to induce current to flow in the same direction.

4.  With the battery and the primary working together to charge the capacitor, the principles of superposition with respect to what is taking place will happen.  With the battery and the primary working together, while the plasma burn takes place in the secondary, the battery is still pumping power into the primary and that power is making the spark more robust.  And with higher current flowing in the loop because of the EMF assist from the primary, presumably it means the battery can pump even more power into the primary.

5.  This is the Magluvin party-pooper part of the quote, "The condenser DOES NOT DISCHARGE UNTIL AFTER the spark has occurred at the spark plug."  So it would appear that any observed LC resonance is only takes place after the burn is over and it has nothing to do with the burn.  It's just a boring old ring-down after all the action has taken place to burn off the unused waste energy in the circuit.

6.  I believe the fundamental principle of the "direct battery-plasma reaction" still applies, but it is too low-level nitty-gritty technical even for the information quoted in the link.  The increased energy in spark has to come from the battery.

Anyway, this was just one link, although it seems credible.  More research could always be done.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 27, 2017, 04:41:40 AM
Nobody should count their chickens before they're hatched, don't you think?  I drew up my explanation for how the ignition circuit works without doing a single Google search.  It's simply fun to try to work things out in your head without relying on your computer.

And since my description involved a simple pulse circuit with a "one shot" mode, I could get away with describing the operation in text and have it such that a reader could follow along.  You, on the other hand, have done no such thing.  You haven't defined the full operation of the circuit, and in your case it really requires a timing diagram.  It also requires a description of the start of the "resonance" the voltages and currents, when the plasma burns take place, and so on and so forth.  You have done nothing like that and you are no place to claim anything.  If you want to be serious, then you have to up your game.  Compare my description of the circuit operation with your description which is nothing more than something like sports colour commentary.  And your "explanation" is arguably for a circuit operation which is more complicated than mine.

After reading your comments, especially about the high-voltage spec for the condenser, I knew right away my explanation could not be correct.  So I finally decided to do some searching.  Ordinary searches on ignition circuits yielded nothing.  So I searched on "role of the condenser in an ignition system" and I found this:

http://www.austin7club.org/Ignition%20Condensors.htm (http://www.austin7club.org/Ignition%20Condensors.htm)

<<<  This information was taken from a Delco Remy electrical equipment book.  >>

<<<
Technical Talk – Ignition Condensors

Basically the function of a condenser in a coil ignition circuit is to reduce the spark at the contact points as they open in the distributor and thus minimise burning and pitting of the points. Arcing is caused by the effect of self induction in the coil as the points interrupt the flow of current. The resultant collapse of the magnetic field produces a high voltage to be generated in the primary winding which then tends to flow across the points, thus causing burning or pitting. This current flows into the condenser and charges it as the points open the rapid collapse of the magnetic field produces this high voltage in the primary windings, which can be as high as 250 volts. This further charges the condenser and the consequent collapse of the field causes a high voltage to be induced in every turn of both primary and secondary windings. As the secondary winding has about 100 times the number of turns of the primary, the voltage can reach as high as 25000 volts. Normally this voltage is not reached as it is limited by various factors such as point gap, compression, engine revs. Etc. so only sufficient voltage is produced to produce a spark at the plug. As the spark is produced at the plug gap the energy in the coil, stored in the form of magnetic flux, begins to drain from the coil through the secondary circuit thus sustaining the spark for a fraction of a second or several degrees of crankshaft revolution. During this interval the condenser discharges back through the primary winding producing an oscillation of the current flow in the primary circuit for the brief interval that is required for the primary circuit to return to a state of equilibrium. The condenser DOES NOT DISCHARGE UNTIL AFTER the spark has occurred at the spark plug.  >>>

So here are my thoughts:

1.  Clearly, when the secondary starts to discharge into the plasma, the voltage on the primary goes up and the voltage is not clamped by the battery and the capacitor like I stated.

2.  The primary generates a good jolt of EMF during the plasma burn that could charge the capacitor in the area of 250 volts.  This means some of the magnetic energy in the core does not get burned off in the plasma, it also charges the capacitor.  So if there is even less available energy in the core, how does the spark get stronger?

3.  Note that the battery and the strong EMF from the primary are still working together - the voltages add and both the battery and the primary want to induce current to flow in the same direction.

4.  With the battery and the primary working together to charge the capacitor, the principles of superposition with respect to what is taking place will happen.  With the battery and the primary working together, while the plasma burn takes place in the secondary, the battery is still pumping power into the primary and that power is making the spark more robust.  And with higher current flowing in the loop because of the EMF assist from the primary, presumably it means the battery can pump even more power into the primary.

5.  This is the Magluvin party-pooper part of the quote, "The condenser DOES NOT DISCHARGE UNTIL AFTER the spark has occurred at the spark plug."  So it would appear that any observed LC resonance is only takes place after the burn is over and it has nothing to do with the burn.  It's just a boring old ring-down after all the action has taken place to burn off the unused waste energy in the circuit.

6.  I believe the fundamental principle of the "direct battery-plasma reaction" still applies, but it is too low-level nitty-gritty technical even for the information quoted in the link.  The increased energy in spark has to come from the battery.

Anyway, this was just one link, although it seems credible.  More research could always be done.

"The 0.22 microfarad 600 volt capacitor, if good, will be a good replacement although, as a rule, just about any magneto or point-type "condenser" will work.  From checking some of them, the capacitance ranges from about 0.15 to 0.47 microfarad at around 600 volts.
 
 The oscillation of the coil/condenser circuit when the points open is called a "damped oscillation" or "ringing oscillation".  Many years ago, what were called spark transmitters used ringing oscillators tuned to relatively high frequencies to transmit Morse code.
 
 "Ignition noise" is caused by this oscillation as ignition systems act like little transmitters.
 
 Now, do you feel fully informed??(https://www.smokstak.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif)  For myself, I feel much better having gotten that off my chest."


https://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=86615



I said they can be up to 600v.

Mags
 
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 27, 2017, 04:48:51 AM
Nobody should count their chickens before they're hatched, don't you think?  I drew up my explanation for how the ignition circuit works without doing a single Google search.  It's simply fun to try to work things out in your head without relying on your computer.

And since my description involved a simple pulse circuit with a "one shot" mode, I could get away with describing the operation in text and have it such that a reader could follow along.  You, on the other hand, have done no such thing.  You haven't defined the full operation of the circuit, and in your case it really requires a timing diagram.  It also requires a description of the start of the "resonance" the voltages and currents, when the plasma burns take place, and so on and so forth.  You have done nothing like that and you are no place to claim anything.  If you want to be serious, then you have to up your game.  Compare my description of the circuit operation with your description which is nothing more than something like sports colour commentary.  And your "explanation" is arguably for a circuit operation which is more complicated than mine.

After reading your comments, especially about the high-voltage spec for the condenser, I knew right away my explanation could not be correct.  So I finally decided to do some searching.  Ordinary searches on ignition circuits yielded nothing.  So I searched on "role of the condenser in an ignition system" and I found this:

http://www.austin7club.org/Ignition%20Condensors.htm (http://www.austin7club.org/Ignition%20Condensors.htm)

<<<  This information was taken from a Delco Remy electrical equipment book.  >>

<<<
Technical Talk – Ignition Condensors

Basically the function of a condenser in a coil ignition circuit is to reduce the spark at the contact points as they open in the distributor and thus minimise burning and pitting of the points. Arcing is caused by the effect of self induction in the coil as the points interrupt the flow of current. The resultant collapse of the magnetic field produces a high voltage to be generated in the primary winding which then tends to flow across the points, thus causing burning or pitting. This current flows into the condenser and charges it as the points open the rapid collapse of the magnetic field produces this high voltage in the primary windings, which can be as high as 250 volts. This further charges the condenser and the consequent collapse of the field causes a high voltage to be induced in every turn of both primary and secondary windings. As the secondary winding has about 100 times the number of turns of the primary, the voltage can reach as high as 25000 volts. Normally this voltage is not reached as it is limited by various factors such as point gap, compression, engine revs. Etc. so only sufficient voltage is produced to produce a spark at the plug. As the spark is produced at the plug gap the energy in the coil, stored in the form of magnetic flux, begins to drain from the coil through the secondary circuit thus sustaining the spark for a fraction of a second or several degrees of crankshaft revolution. During this interval the condenser discharges back through the primary winding producing an oscillation of the current flow in the primary circuit for the brief interval that is required for the primary circuit to return to a state of equilibrium. The condenser DOES NOT DISCHARGE UNTIL AFTER the spark has occurred at the spark plug.  >>>

So here are my thoughts:

1.  Clearly, when the secondary starts to discharge into the plasma, the voltage on the primary goes up and the voltage is not clamped by the battery and the capacitor like I stated.

2.  The primary generates a good jolt of EMF during the plasma burn that could charge the capacitor in the area of 250 volts.  This means some of the magnetic energy in the core does not get burned off in the plasma, it also charges the capacitor.  So if there is even less available energy in the core, how does the spark get stronger?

3.  Note that the battery and the strong EMF from the primary are still working together - the voltages add and both the battery and the primary want to induce current to flow in the same direction.

4.  With the battery and the primary working together to charge the capacitor, the principles of superposition with respect to what is taking place will happen.  With the battery and the primary working together, while the plasma burn takes place in the secondary, the battery is still pumping power into the primary and that power is making the spark more robust.  And with higher current flowing in the loop because of the EMF assist from the primary, presumably it means the battery can pump even more power into the primary.

5.  This is the Magluvin party-pooper part of the quote, "The condenser DOES NOT DISCHARGE UNTIL AFTER the spark has occurred at the spark plug."  So it would appear that any observed LC resonance is only takes place after the burn is over and it has nothing to do with the burn.  It's just a boring old ring-down after all the action has taken place to burn off the unused waste energy in the circuit.

6.  I believe the fundamental principle of the "direct battery-plasma reaction" still applies, but it is too low-level nitty-gritty technical even for the information quoted in the link.  The increased energy in spark has to come from the battery.

Anyway, this was just one link, although it seems credible.  More research could always be done.


" 5.  This is the Magluvin party-pooper part of the quote, "The condenser DOES NOT DISCHARGE UNTIL AFTER the spark has occurred at the spark plug."  So it would appear that any observed LC resonance is only takes place after the burn is over and it has nothing to do with the burn.  It's just a boring old ring-down after all the action has taken place to burn off the unused waste energy in the circuit.

Well that 'quote' is not correct in the least..  Firstly you dont know the circuit as you have shown in your explanation and then you think you can party poop me with some dumb quote?  That cap and primary charge and discharge with each other during the entire spark time. Gees you just dont quit.  And you sure dont get it,

You lost bud.  Its the way I have been presenting it for a long time now.  lol you think that pooper will save you?

mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 27, 2017, 04:53:01 AM
Ok, I gota git.  If you are going to reply tonight try and make it one post and ill let it through tomorrow.  Wish we could see eye to eye here. But your just dead set on Im(were) wrong and will put up just about anything, even if it is clearly wrong and if that doesnt work you still insist im wrong with some other new inaccurate proofs

See ya tomorrow.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on October 27, 2017, 05:34:11 AM
Here is the fundamental point:

Magnetic energy is being drained off from the core during the plasma burn.  So both the primary and the secondary will go to a high voltage during the burn-off.  Let's just use positive voltages to keep it simple.

So let's say the primary goes to 300 volts.
And therefore the secondary wants to go to 3000 volts, but in reality it is being clamped by the burning plasma, and let's say it's clamped at 500 volts.

During the entire draining of the magnetic energy in the core, the magnetic energy is going down, and therefore both the primary and secondary will remain positive, and what their positive potential will be at is based on the rate of the magnetic energy drain-off.

This means that the primary remains high at some potential, and only when the magnetic energy in the core drains to zero does the EMF disappear.  With the EMF gone, the charged capacitor does a ring-down with the primary, but the burn is over.  So the secondary swings during the ring-down, but it never ignites the plasma.

Now, I am suggesting that during this whole plasma burn process the battery is still pumping magnetic energy into the core, and that's the real source for the bigger and more robust spark.  Note that with the primary charging the capacitor, the capacitor no longer "eats" into the voltage drop of the primary relative to the battery as per my original posting.  So that implies that the battery puts more power into the core and extends the spark time.  It's not easy to make measurements when two things are happening simultaneously but it can be done.

One aspect of uncertainty is that the magnetic energy in the core has to drain to maintain positive potential on the primary, but if the battery is also adding magnetic energy during the burn, what's the deal with the net magnetic energy?  Does it still drain off but more slowly?

You don't have a victory, you can do whatever you want to do.  Like do a test and look for the plasma on and off ticks and relate the ticks other observations.  Make some energy measurements.  I am almost 100% certain you are not going to find your barely-defined resonance.  But what I am pretty sure you will find is that the battery pumped out X Joules of energy above any beyond the initial energy put into the core and these "above any beyond" X Joules of energy went into the more robust plasma burn.  i.e.; the plasma burn without the capacitor in place had Y Joules of energy.  The plasma burn with the the capacitor in place had (X+Y) Joules of energy.

You can't just say, "I think there is resonance making the spark bigger," you can't.  You actually have to provide a detailed coherent technical explanation and because even a simple circuit can be tricky enough, confirming your hypothesis on the bench is the real way to go.  All the indications are that there is no resonance.  There is a single continuous plasma burn with no changes in the current direction flowing through the plasma and when the burn is over the capacitor is charged to a certain potential and there is an innocuous ring-down that drains off the unused energy in the capacitor.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on October 27, 2017, 07:40:05 AM
I have been fishing around online.  Now I am going to sort of play devil's advocate.

http://classicmechanic.blogspot.ca/2011/03/ignition.html

Here is a comment from somebody:

<<< Bingo! The condenser is connected across the points. When the points closs, the condenser voltage is clamped at zero, and current from the battery "charges" (via a building magnetic field), the primary side of the coil. When this is complete, the current flowing through the coil is now constant. When the points close ((MH:  He means open)), the condenser has two functions. One is to shunt the current which because of the collapsing primary coil sides magnetic field, wants to continue to flow, and would otherwise arc and quickly ruin the points. This probably wouldn't be a danger, because without the condenser, the ignition won't work. The condenser is charged up (voltage wise), by the current flowing from the coil because of the energy stored in the now collapsing magnetic field. This current flow quickly charges the capacitor, and then the capacitor then sends current back to the coil. This continues with each back and forth current swing being smaller. This is called wringing  ((MH: ringing)). The first cycle or longer (at a certain frequency), is what induces a corresponding (but higher) voltage and current that creates the spark at the spark plus. So the condenser protects the points from arcing, and allows a rapid and oscillating discharge of the primary coil, and that is necessary for generating a strong spark. Without the condenser, the spark would be weak or not even there. F on the schematic, F on the explanation.  >>

So, he thinks there is resonance and is basically confirming what you are saying.  So let's examine this more closely.

Would you agree that it's the core of the ignition coil that is the main energy storage component and the capacitor is not a major player in the energy storage?  You have made references to the "tiny capacitor" so I think that you would.

This guy says the cap charges up, and then rings down with the primary and you get a more robust spark.  If this is true then with your plasma sensor loop connected to your scope channel you would have to see a decaying oscillation.  This assumes the plasma stays "lit" the whole time as you get the ring-down that sustains the spark.  In other words, the ringing has to be fast enough such that the plasma stays lit the whole time.  If the plasma goes off and then on, that represents sharp on-off switching of the current and you should see a series of "ticks" on the plasma sensor loop.  Let's assume either way is perfecty viable.

Now here is the problem:  If there is a sustained but decreasing level of magnetic energy in the core then any ringing doesn't make sense.  The reason I am saying this is as follows:  Okay, the cap is charged to it's maximum voltage and it's time to change direction of the current flow.  Well, when the cap discharges into the primary, you will simply get magnetic flux cancellation inside the core with "north" annihilating "south."  So the capacitor would simply "magnetically short itself out" when it tried to reverse the direction of the current flow and discharge.  You would simply reduce the magnetic energy in the core by a chunk.

So what are we left with?  The only thing we are left with is that the capacitor can only reverse the current direction and "swing back" after the initial plasma burn is done and the core has been completely drained of magnetic energy.  And now you face a problem if you assume that the magnetic core of the ignition coil can store way way more energy than the capacitor, even when the capacitor is charged to 300 volts.  And note on the first "swing back" the capacitor has to do several things, 1) pump power into the core that is immediately burned off in the plasma burn, and 2) recharge the battery.  It really sounds like it's not going to fly.

So the conundrum is that the capacitor is "tiny" and is only really there to protect the points.  It's not supposed to be a big energy storage device to sustain three or five or ten "resonance cycles."

Here is a thought that occurred to me:  Is it possible that without the capacitor a hell of a lot of energy is burnt off in the points sparking when they open?  And then when you add the capacitor the elimination of the point sparking means you have more magnetic energy in the core and that's the reason you get a bigger spark?  I view that as a long-shot but you never know.

I still say the fat spark has to get its extra energy from the battery and that could be confirmed through measurements.

Again - there are lots of problems with the supposed resonance mechanism when you examine it.  And right now I am doing the thinking work that you are supposed to be doing.  I don't think you are thinking things through.

If you use a nice spring-loaded SPST switch like I said and then get nice consistent small sparks without the cap and nice consistent big fat sparks with the cap, then you can use the sensor coil near the HV output like I said.  If you get a decaying sinusoid during the fat sparks, or a series of fast ticks during the fat sparks, that would tell you right away that resonance is in play.  If you get a single "on tick" and a single "off tick" that would tell you that the plasma burn is a single unidirectional pulse of current.  One more time, you should be thinking of this stuff by yourself.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on October 27, 2017, 09:00:31 AM
Still sniffing around.   Here is a clip that backs you up 100%.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU87fpNQ3d8

HOWEVER, the "Automotive Engineering" channel might be much more automotive than electronics and it's possible that the persons that made the clip were just "following the crowd."

Going back to the "current has to keep flowing" angle relative to this clip:  Okay, the capacitor charges up to say 300 volts which lets the current flow, and then you are at the limit of the EMF generation and the current flow stops.  Why does it stop?  It actually stops because the secondary has just "bridged the gap" and ignited the plasma.  So then the magnetic core of the ignition coil dumps all its energy into the plasma.

So, suppose we guesstimate the energy status when the trigger point comes and the plasma ignites and there is 300 volts in the capacitor.  My guess is this:  90% of the energy is in the ignition coil core, and 10% of the energy is in the capacitor.

So when the core dumps all of its magnetic energy, the clip claims then you have a resonant plasma-firing ring-down.  I don't see it, what I see is just the ring down with no plasma generation.  So I think the clip is wrong and just "following the crowd."  I looked at several other clips that just say the capacitor protects the points and there is no mention of the the big plasma ring down.  But I am not convinced that those clips are the real thing either.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: norman6538 on October 27, 2017, 01:39:01 PM
As a young boy I was told that the purpose of the condenser was to prevents the points
from burning and that is one feature of Tesla's great circuit.
But what the spark plug needs is high voltage to jump the gap
and part of that comes from the primary secondary voltage increase
and part of that high voltage comes from the backemf which is greater than the
battery 12v which goes out of the coil and into the condenser where it gets
recycled again and again so the spark will jump the gap and get repeated
in the resonate circuit many times over.

If you hold your fingers on a 12v battery you will not get shocked but
if you hold each hand to a broken section of a wire and touch them
together and they are powering a coil or motor coil when you disconnect
them you will get shocked because of the backemf because its way over 12v
from the battery.

A very clever and very efficient circuit that works everyday for millions of folks
and for millions of sparks...

But the real question is can we get anything extra out of this circuit like the Bedini
school girl circuit other than the excellent spark we want?

Norman
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 27, 2017, 02:19:15 PM
As a young boy I was told that the purpose of the condenser was to prevents the points
from burning and that is one feature of Tesla's great circuit.
But what the spark plug needs is high voltage to jump the gap
and part of that comes from the primary secondary voltage increase
and part of that high voltage comes from the backemf which is greater than the
battery 12v which goes out of the coil and into the condenser where it gets
recycled again and again so the spark will jump the gap and get repeated
in the resonate circuit many times over.

If you hold your fingers on a 12v battery you will not get shocked but
if you hold each hand to a broken section of a wire and touch them
together and they are powering a coil or motor coil when you disconnect
them you will get shocked because of the backemf because its way over 12v
from the battery.

A very clever and very efficient circuit that works everyday for millions of folks
and for millions of sparks...

But the real question is can we get anything extra out of this circuit like the Bedini
school girl circuit other than the excellent spark we want?

Norman

Have you read the speaker thread?  One more time....'

First we have to start with an already efficient system. Then we apply resonance.  If you did read the other thread, it provides infor on how to increase efficiency beyond 100%, and then we can add resonance to acquire more efficiency.

Have you seen a bedini that outputs more than in?

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 27, 2017, 02:23:14 PM
Hey MH

Got a lot to do today so cant go over your posts just yet.  Ill be back later to see what you have there. 


Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on October 27, 2017, 02:31:07 PM
Well,after reading the whole thread,i see that no one as yet has fully explained as to how the simple points ignition system works  :o

Will keep an eye on this thread,to see how long it takes for the whole story to be put together.


Brad
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: norman6538 on October 27, 2017, 02:33:46 PM
Mags said
Have you read the speaker thread? 

No, do not have time today.

One more time....'

First we have to start with an already efficient system. Then we apply resonance.  If you did read the other thread, it provides infor on how to increase efficiency beyond 100%, and then we can add resonance to acquire more efficiency.

Have you seen a bedini that outputs more than in?

No, where is that? thanks
Norman

Mags   
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: norman6538 on October 27, 2017, 02:35:09 PM
Well,after reading the whole thread,i see that no one as yet has fully explained as to how the simple points ignition system works  :o

Will keep an eye on this thread,to see how long it takes for the whole story to be put together.


Brad

Brad, do you know? I pretty much had to teach myself over the years.


Norman
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: webby1 on October 27, 2017, 03:35:07 PM

My 2 cents worth,,


There are 2 spark gaps,, One you want to spark and the other you don't want to spark ( in this case it is arcing across the points).


In my experience the condenser has 2 objectives, one was to reduce the arc across the points and the other was to provide for a faster cutt-off time for the current in the primary.


It takes time for the points to open,, there is a ramp on the lobe,, so the points are making contact and then in a relative fashion they open slowly,, the rate of sepperation depends on the lobe shape, points arm length and the RPM.


If the condenser is to small then it is charged before the points gap is large enough to stop arcing,, if it is to big then it takes to long for the cap to charge and stop current flow in the primary and then it will hold onto to much charge and arc across the points as they are closing.  Both of these can lead to a weaker spark and short points life.


Voltage is created by rate of change of flux, so the more abrupt the stoppage of current flow in the primary the bigger the spark out of the secondary.

Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 27, 2017, 04:48:37 PM
Well,after reading the whole thread,i see that no one as yet has fully explained as to how the simple points ignition system works  :o

Will keep an eye on this thread,to see how long it takes for the whole story to be put together.


Brad

The main point of the thread, stated in the first sentence of the first post, was to talk about how resonance in this circuit can give a gain.

But hey, why wait to explain your knowledge.  As Tesla said, there is no better time than now.

Maybe I havnt put it all in order of operation, and is spread out among posts, but there was a reason for that in my arguments as I go along. If MH has his version that is suppose to be correct and my reasons are not, then why give him all there is to know on my end, when he says I dont know at all what is going on? The end result is the cap increases the coils efficiency without a cap in place where it should be.. See MH first thought that the system didnt have a cap at all, and that I added it as a modification. So I let him ride with that. So initially I could tell he knew nothing about them. But then he applied his thoughts to it and came up with a page of things that had to be argued as it was bad in many places.


So please give us your version.  It would be on topic. If you think I dont know for sure how the process works then please correct me. if you have read it all then you should know my version. I dont think it will change the fact that the cap oscillating with the primary after the switch is open helps us get a much better spark in all aspects by way of resonance.  Resonance doesnt give us anything more MH is claiming, and he further tried to deny that resonance even exists in the circuit in his theory, and even ignored the inductance effects in the whole of his explanation other than there is transformer action and thats it, let alone also ignoring the fact that when the switch is open that the primary due to its own field collapes currents will charge the cap to possibly over 100v( some ign systems from around the world have differing results on that) to initiate the LC ring. Thats why I had said the resonance is initiated by the primary otherwise how would the cap get it high potential to begin with.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 27, 2017, 04:57:15 PM
My 2 cents worth,,


There are 2 spark gaps,, One you want to spark and the other you don't want to spark ( in this case it is arcing across the points).


In my experience the condenser has 2 objectives, one was to reduce the arc across the points and the other was to provide for a faster cutt-off time for the current in the primary.


It takes time for the points to open,, there is a ramp on the lobe,, so the points are making contact and then in a relative fashion they open slowly,, the rate of sepperation depends on the lobe shape, points arm length and the RPM.


If the condenser is to small then it is charged before the points gap is large enough to stop arcing,, if it is to big then it takes to long for the cap to charge and stop current flow in the primary and then it will hold onto to much charge and arc across the points as they are closing.  Both of these can lead to a weaker spark and short points life.


Voltage is created by rate of change of flux, so the more abrupt the stoppage of current flow in the primary the bigger the spark out of the secondary.

So you disagree that resonance between the cap and primary exist and help us get a stronger, longer lasting spark due to the LC oscillation producing multiple sparks rather than 1 spark. Just wondering because you didnt mention anything of the cap and primary as an LC when the switch opens that will ring after the primary collapse currents charge the cap to over 100v.   Do you have a coil and cap and a scope?

Mags

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 27, 2017, 05:06:08 PM
Mags said
Have you read the speaker thread? 

No, do not have time today.

One more time....'

First we have to start with an already efficient system. Then we apply resonance.  If you did read the other thread, it provides infor on how to increase efficiency beyond 100%, and then we can add resonance to acquire more efficiency.

Have you seen a bedini that outputs more than in?

No, where is that? thanks
Norman

Mags

Well read that info and tell me what you think,

I asked if you have seen a Bedini motor because you seemed to indicate how we can get more out of this other than a spark like a bedini motor as if you have seen a bedini motor put out more as in ou?  If you havnt seen it for real do so then you are like the rest of us and cant really refer to the Bedini motor as an ou device example.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 27, 2017, 05:14:06 PM
Apparently someone else is approving MHs post in my thread. I suspect its Brad. The issue I have with that is MH and I have issues between us and I had told him im pm that I will make the decision on which posts are to be approved.  But oh well, do as you wish.

If you are going to be 'that involved' here then post your version brad, instead of just blurting what you havnt seen here and 'patrolling' my thread.

mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on October 27, 2017, 05:37:48 PM
Well read that info and tell me what you think,

I asked if you have seen a Bedini motor because you seemed to indicate how we can get more out of this other than a spark like a bedini motor as if you have seen a bedini motor put out more as in ou?  If you havnt seen it for real do so then you are like the rest of us and cant really refer to the Bedini motor as an ou device example.

Mags


I consider the Bedini SG to be a form of "rotary transformer", a concept which has yet to be demonstrated operating at its optimum, let alone fullest potential.  It should be understood that the terms "rotary transformer" as I use them, are not as of yet, nor in any foreseeable future the private property of anyone nor any group researching the same that I am presently aware of.  It is my firm understanding that there are a multiplicity of methods and apparatus which can be classified as "rotary transformer".  I say this so that it's clear that my use both in word and in deed, of the terms differs from how it may be used by others. 


Regarding the Bedini SG, the concept of recovery is fundamentally flawed in my opinion.....  The answer to the question of what exactly is being recovered, and the mechanism through which this is made possible is extremely vague.  From this position it becomes difficult to impossible to properly orient oneself so as to be in the best position to profit from and through reflection.  Recovery as I have come to understand it is not as simple as we have been led to believe.  It is multifaceted, and requires that one be able to observe at a minimum three energy transfer and storage processes and their collective and individual influence on one another at any given instance while the system is in operation.   


A step in the right direction would be to first comprehend impedance, followed by engineering the system in such a way that "self impedance" (I know....its not in the books....) becomes impossible....  one mans' experience.....




Regards
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 27, 2017, 05:48:50 PM

I consider the Bedini SG to be a form of "rotary transformer", a concept which has yet to be demonstrated operating at its optimum, let alone fullest potential.  It should be understood that the terms "rotary transformer" as I use them, are not as of yet, nor in any foreseeable future the private property of anyone nor any group researching the same that I am presently aware of.  It is my firm understanding that there are a multiplicity of methods and apparatus which can be classified as "rotary transformer".  I say this so that it's clear that my use both in word and in deed, of the terms differs from how it may be used by others. 


Regarding the Bedini SG, the concept of recovery is fundamentally flawed in my opinion.....  The answer to the question of what exactly is being recovered, and the mechanism through which this is made possible is extremely vague.  From this position it becomes difficult to impossible to properly orient oneself so as to be in the best position to profit from and through reflection.  Recovery as I have come to understand it is not as simple as we have been led to believe.  It is multifaceted, and requires that one be able to observe at a minimum three energy transfer and storage processes and their collective and individual influence on one another at any given instance while the system is in operation.   


A step in the right direction would be to first comprehend impedance, followed by engineering the system in such a way that "self impedance" (I know....its not in the books....) becomes impossible....  one mans' experience.....




Regards

Hey Er

Wasnt really claiming the Bedini as a fake or anything.  But just the idea that some use it as an example with out really knowing for sure is questionable. So I questioned.  Maybe he has and I would like to see info on that particular Bedini example. Would be nice.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on October 27, 2017, 05:53:24 PM
Hey Er

Wasnt really claiming the Bedini as a fake or anything.  But just the idea that some use it as an example with out really knowing for sure is questionable. So I questioned.  Maybe he has and I would like to see info on that particular Bedini example. Would be nice.

Mags


I completely understand where you are coming from....I wasn't questioning anyones position, just wanted to share an insight..




Regards
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 27, 2017, 06:08:08 PM
Still sniffing around.   Here is a clip that backs you up 100%.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU87fpNQ3d8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU87fpNQ3d8)

HOWEVER, the "Automotive Engineering" channel might be much more automotive than electronics and it's possible that the persons that made the clip were just "following the crowd."

Going back to the "current has to keep flowing" angle relative to this clip:  Okay, the capacitor charges up to say 300 volts which lets the current flow, and then you are at the limit of the EMF generation and the current flow stops.  Why does it stop?  It actually stops because the secondary has just "bridged the gap" and ignited the plasma.  So then the magnetic core of the ignition coil dumps all its energy into the plasma.

So, suppose we guesstimate the energy status when the trigger point comes and the plasma ignites and there is 300 volts in the capacitor.  My guess is this:  90% of the energy is in the ignition coil core, and 10% of the energy is in the capacitor.

So when the core dumps all of its magnetic energy, the clip claims then you have a resonant plasma-firing ring-down.  I don't see it, what I see is just the ring down with no plasma generation.  So I think the clip is wrong and just "following the crowd."  I looked at several other clips that just say the capacitor protects the points and there is no mention of the the big plasma ring down.  But I am not convinced that those clips are the real thing either.

Thanks for that vid..  Can you see that what was in the vid is very possible?  I still feel you denying it. But that is exactly how i see it. Like you said is an accurate description in comparison to mine..  But lets see what brad has to add to that, since what I explained doesnt seem to cover it all according to him.

Ill get to the other posts later.  Took a long lunch here at the shop while I wait for some paint to dry..  Little center console shift indicator module for a Maserati that all the paint around the lettering and lines flaked off.  I taped it up with packing tape so I could see the remnants of the lettering and exacto cut them, pealed of the rest of the tape and paint then remove the remaining tape over the letters.  $380 for a new one. I charged $100.  Do a lot of that cost saving stuff for people.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: webby1 on October 27, 2017, 06:46:27 PM
So you disagree that resonance between the cap and primary exist and help us get a stronger, longer lasting spark due to the LC oscillation producing multiple sparks rather than 1 spark. Just wondering because you didnt mention anything of the cap and primary as an LC when the switch opens that will ring after the primary collapse currents charge the cap to over 100v.   Do you have a coil and cap and a scope?

Mags

Mags
In regards to a points and condenser ignition system, I view it as a single pulse resonant exchange,, it does matter on what the goal is and in this case it is to initiate a chemical reaction within the combustion chamber.


Scope?? Don't really need it,, I spent a few decades staring at the exact thing you are discussing,, I actually just threw away my old Sun Scope Analyzer with IR exhaust gas analyzer as well as all the usual stuff.


Do you want to use a Multi-Spark-Discharge,, they make those as aftermarket for the older engines,, in which case you could use the LC to keep things going.
Those patterns look nifty on a scope,, HEI systems look nifty as well,, either single or pulse trains all nice and crisp vertical lines consistent firing lines,, way better than points :)

Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 27, 2017, 07:43:00 PM
ok.  I posted this thread in response to MHs request to do so from pm. The argument from Mh was he said there is no resonance in the circuit with or without the cap, in response to my claim of gain in the output, the spark, we get by way of this resonance. So I gave us the thread to talk about that and for him to be able to put his views forward along with mine.  Well he took it all the way to say that I dont understand the circuit at all...


I could care less about using the circuit for anything. It is just a resonance gain example.

I am claiming that we get a gain in output with the use of resonance. This is just an example of that fact, and also the speaker in a ported tuned enclosure is an example of that. So we have 2 very good examples where we can apply resonance and obtain appreciably more output than the circuit, or speaker box without resonance and just working on their own.... What does this have to do with anything?  Well if we start with a device that is very eff in the first place and we can apply resonance to that eff system, it just may take us over 100% eff, thus a very possible path to OU.  The speaker and sub thread explains how we can obtain more eff just by adding more drivers with the same input for each case from 1 speaker to 2 speakers, then to 4, then to 8, then to 16.  Each time we do so we increase 3db output with the same level of power input for each.  Pulse motor with 1 coil with 1w in. add another coil and adjust the Pin to the same input Pin and the motor becomes more eff in output.  4 coils more out. 8 coils more out. All without changing the Pin for each

I dont want discussions on that here. Those can be had in the speaker thread.

If some dont get that, then you just dont for what ever reasons you guys wish to conjure up.  Cant help ya there.

mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on October 27, 2017, 08:22:01 PM
So I did more looking around, on Google and also specifically to do searches for pdfs on Google.  And I looked at YouTube clips and read several different forum board threads on this subject.

It's apparent that there is a lot of uncertainty and confusion about what the capacitor does beyond protecting the points from spark discharges and if there is a plasma-producing/sustaining resonant ring-down.  I would say only about 10% of the sources I looked at talked about a plasma-producing resonant ring-down and my confidence in the technical knowledge of those sources was fair to poor.

What I learned was the size of the capacitor will affect the ignition timing because the cap accepts the initial inrush of current when the points open and then reaches a voltage point where the current flow stops/the plasma ignites so obviously a larger capacitor will delay the onset of the ignition spark.

The ignition system we are talking about is a "Kettering ignition system" that dates from 1917 and was used in cars up until the mid-Seventies.  It was also branded as the "Delco ignition system."  It is Patent US1223180.  I was too tired to read the patent but string searches on "resonant," "resonance," "oscillation," and "ringing" show no results.

My original reference was the "Delco Remy electrical equipment" book and it looks like it originated in the 1950s and I view it as very credible.

The most credible new piece of information I found was a thesis from 1971 written for the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, California.  It's about newer capacitor discharge ignition systems but it also reviews older generations of ignition systems.  The relevant information starts on page 25.  There is no mention of a resonant  plasma-producing or plasma sustaining ring-down when discussing the actual plasma spark generation.  He does mention that the capacitor rings with the primary, but not with respect to the generation of the plasma spark.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/742933.pdf (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/742933.pdf)

A disadvantage of the Kettering system is that at high engine RPMs there is less time to keep the contacts closed so you get a weaker spark.  That's where dwell angle advance systems come in to compensate whick TK also made reference to.

My conclusion from looking online is that there is no plasma producing or plasma sustaining resonant ring-down between the capacitor and the ignition coil primary.  And of course I mentioned several times that you could simply check for yourself with a sniffer pick-up coil (very carefully).
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on October 27, 2017, 08:41:39 PM
Quoting myself:

<<< Here is a thought that occurred to me:  Is it possible that without the capacitor a hell of a lot of energy is burnt off in the points sparking when they open?  And then when you add the capacitor the elimination of the point sparking means you have more magnetic energy in the core and that's the reason you get a bigger spark?  I view that as a long-shot but you never know. >>>

I also saw several references to this online and some of them were credible.

So is this the "so simple that you were too dumb to think of it" explanation for the much stronger spark when you add the capacitor?  In other words the reason was right in front of our noses but we were bind to what we saw and heard?

If this is true then my "manufactured solution" with the "direct battery-plasma reaction" was just a bunch of hogwash because I was looking for an explanation based on the battery providing the "extra energy" for the more robust spark.

So here is the question:  Is the spark energy being greatly reduced without the capacitor because the supplied battery energy is being drained away in the arcing across the points?  The way to answer this is to do a test on the bench.

So, can anybody suggest a bench test to check for this?

I am good at this type of stuff and it took me about 20 seconds to come up with an easy test.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on October 27, 2017, 09:11:31 PM
I will review the idea that I had about the "direct battery-plasma reaction."

If you ignore the other dynamics taking place, then there is a lot of reason to believe it may be valid.  It's like you can imagine the engineering department in an ignition coil manufacturer where they joke about how nobody knows about the "big secret" about the how the more robust spark is actually generated when you add the capacitor.

Case in point:  In the old 386 (486?) processor days, you had to buy an add-on "numerical coprocessor" to give the 386 floating-point capabilities.  There was a socket on every motherboard for the "numerical coprocessor."  And the truth was the "numerical coprocessor" was a complete brand new 386 with an included floating-point multiplier and when you added the new chip the original 386 was simply turned off.

So, going back to the ignition coil, what do you think happens when you connect a 12-volt battery to the primary and there is a 500-ohm resistor on the secondary?  More specifically, people that play with circuit simulation programs may want to try something, and it would be easy if there is already an ignition coil model.  Or you make one with a primary, core, secondary with 100x the turns of the primary, and coupling coefficients and all that stuff.

If you did a simulation where for say three milliseconds you connected an ideal voltage source of 12 volts to the primary, and you had a 500-ohm resistor on the secondary what would you get?  Well, (1200/500) equals 2.4 amps into a 500 ohm resistor which is 1200 watts on the secondary.  So that means (1200/12) = 100 amps drawn on the primary.

Because three milliseconds is a relatively short time, I don't think the ignition coil core wold have any saturation issues.  But, all of that could be checked on the simulator.  This all has to do with how a transformer reacts to a "step function" of x seconds with a load on the secondary.  It can't pass the step function from the primary to the secondary indefinitely, because transformers don't work with DC.  But a three millisecond pulse is a different story.

So there might still be some life in the "direct battery-plasma reaction" and one more time I believe that this can be confirmed with a very simple bench test.  So any ideas for a test?
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 27, 2017, 11:07:28 PM
I have been fishing around online.  Now I am going to sort of play devil's advocate.

http://classicmechanic.blogspot.ca/2011/03/ignition.html (http://classicmechanic.blogspot.ca/2011/03/ignition.html)

Here is a comment from somebody:

<<< Bingo! The condenser is connected across the points. When the points closs, the condenser voltage is clamped at zero, and current from the battery "charges" (via a building magnetic field), the primary side of the coil. When this is complete, the current flowing through the coil is now constant. When the points close ((MH:  He means open)), the condenser has two functions. One is to shunt the current which because of the collapsing primary coil sides magnetic field, wants to continue to flow, and would otherwise arc and quickly ruin the points. This probably wouldn't be a danger, because without the condenser, the ignition won't work. The condenser is charged up (voltage wise), by the current flowing from the coil because of the energy stored in the now collapsing magnetic field. This current flow quickly charges the capacitor, and then the capacitor then sends current back to the coil. This continues with each back and forth current swing being smaller. This is called wringing  ((MH: ringing)). The first cycle or longer (at a certain frequency), is what induces a corresponding (but higher) voltage and current that creates the spark at the spark plus. So the condenser protects the points from arcing, and allows a rapid and oscillating discharge of the primary coil, and that is necessary for generating a strong spark. Without the condenser, the spark would be weak or not even there. F on the schematic, F on the explanation.  >>

So, he thinks there is resonance and is basically confirming what you are saying.  So let's examine this more closely.

Would you agree that it's the core of the ignition coil that is the main energy storage component and the capacitor is not a major player in the energy storage?  You have made references to the "tiny capacitor" so I think that you would.

This guy says the cap charges up, and then rings down with the primary and you get a more robust spark.  If this is true then with your plasma sensor loop connected to your scope channel you would have to see a decaying oscillation.  This assumes the plasma stays "lit" the whole time as you get the ring-down that sustains the spark.  In other words, the ringing has to be fast enough such that the plasma stays lit the whole time.  If the plasma goes off and then on, that represents sharp on-off switching of the current and you should see a series of "ticks" on the plasma sensor loop.  Let's assume either way is perfecty viable.

Now here is the problem:  If there is a sustained but decreasing level of magnetic energy in the core then any ringing doesn't make sense.  The reason I am saying this is as follows:  Okay, the cap is charged to it's maximum voltage and it's time to change direction of the current flow.  Well, when the cap discharges into the primary, you will simply get magnetic flux cancellation inside the core with "north" annihilating "south."  So the capacitor would simply "magnetically short itself out" when it tried to reverse the direction of the current flow and discharge.  You would simply reduce the magnetic energy in the core by a chunk.

So what are we left with?  The only thing we are left with is that the capacitor can only reverse the current direction and "swing back" after the initial plasma burn is done and the core has been completely drained of magnetic energy.  And now you face a problem if you assume that the magnetic core of the ignition coil can store way way more energy than the capacitor, even when the capacitor is charged to 300 volts.  And note on the first "swing back" the capacitor has to do several things, 1) pump power into the core that is immediately burned off in the plasma burn, and 2) recharge the battery.  It really sounds like it's not going to fly.

So the conundrum is that the capacitor is "tiny" and is only really there to protect the points.  It's not supposed to be a big energy storage device to sustain three or five or ten "resonance cycles."

Here is a thought that occurred to me:  Is it possible that without the capacitor a hell of a lot of energy is burnt off in the points sparking when they open?  And then when you add the capacitor the elimination of the point sparking means you have more magnetic energy in the core and that's the reason you get a bigger spark?  I view that as a long-shot but you never know.

I still say the fat spark has to get its extra energy from the battery and that could be confirmed through measurements.

Again - there are lots of problems with the supposed resonance mechanism when you examine it.  And right now I am doing the thinking work that you are supposed to be doing.  I don't think you are thinking things through.

If you use a nice spring-loaded SPST switch like I said and then get nice consistent small sparks without the cap and nice consistent big fat sparks with the cap, then you can use the sensor coil near the HV output like I said.  If you get a decaying sinusoid during the fat sparks, or a series of fast ticks during the fat sparks, that would tell you right away that resonance is in play.  If you get a single "on tick" and a single "off tick" that would tell you that the plasma burn is a single unidirectional pulse of current.  One more time, you should be thinking of this stuff by yourself.

Will get back to the rest of this post tonight, but looking at the page link you have provided, I have serious issues with the circuit they present...

First off, they have a conductor shorting the capacitor.   And the cap is not across the switch!! lol  like I said before, possibly in PM and not here yet, there are a lot of ign circuits that are totally incorrect online. And this is just 1 example of such...

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 27, 2017, 11:19:25 PM
Just approved your 3 new posts MH.  Brad will just do it anyway soo.... Whatever..

Go ahead and post freely.  Ive accomplished my point here and I may not be able to go over them all or even reply to them if it is going to be tons of them. 

But go ahead and fill the pages as you like and all of the important stuff will be left behind in the beginning pages.. That was the big reason I wanted to moderate these threads from the beginning. But now you have brad to set you free and do what you do so well... 

I will talk to Stefan about a new topic where I have moderation privileges alone once Im ready to show what we really can do with resonance... Just to keep the real important stuff threads clean. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on October 27, 2017, 11:47:30 PM
I don't really have much more to say.  I don't believe there is resonance like you believe and it's up to you if you want to do my suggested tests or do tests of your own to prove your case.  And I am hinting at some simple tests at the end in the form of a pop quiz.  Can you develop some simple tests to answer some basic questions?

And you may be making a classic mistake where you call reduced losses in the circuit a "gain."
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 28, 2017, 01:37:36 AM
I don't really have much more to say.  I don't believe there is resonance like you believe and it's up to you if you want to do my suggested tests or do tests of your own to prove your case.  And I am hinting at some simple tests at the end in the form of a pop quiz.  Can you develop some simple tests to answer some basic questions?

And you may be making a classic mistake where you call reduced losses in the circuit a "gain."

Lol   Bah, your suggested tests?  After you put together your imaginary full of garbage explanation of the circuit post(first one I approve for you in this thread), you think I should follow your lead in a test??

Im not going to waste my time on a test that is padded and loaded to block any resonance that could be had.  Just as you did in your full explanation of the circuit.

If you want to call it a reduced loss, Im fine with that.  It is still a gain by way of reducing the loss. The inherent loses  of the circuit without the cap are what they are. Losses .  lol. Your words are a treasure for me to use against you.

I wont block any of your posts here. You now are officially back in the forum..  But now you will have to msg brad to approve your posts from here on in. I will not moderate this thread, one way or another any longer. Im now just waiting for brads description of how the circuit works. I want to see where he goes with it... If he is on the same page as you, then I will reply with due diligence..

Congratulations, you have the stage. ;) Happy mucking.  ;D

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on October 28, 2017, 02:18:41 AM
The main point of the thread, stated in the first sentence of the first post, was to talk about how resonance in this circuit can give a gain.

But hey, why wait to explain your knowledge.  As Tesla said, there is no better time than now.

Maybe I havnt put it all in order of operation, and is spread out among posts, but there was a reason for that in my arguments as I go along. If MH has his version that is suppose to be correct and my reasons are not, then why give him all there is to know on my end, when he says I dont know at all what is going on? The end result is the cap increases the coils efficiency without a cap in place where it should be.. See MH first thought that the system didnt have a cap at all, and that I added it as a modification. So I let him ride with that. So initially I could tell he knew nothing about them. But then he applied his thoughts to it and came up with a page of things that had to be argued as it was bad in many places.


So please give us your version.  It would be on topic. If you think I dont know for sure how the process works then please correct me. if you have read it all then you should know my version. I dont think it will change the fact that the cap oscillating with the primary after the switch is open helps us get a much better spark in all aspects by way of resonance.  Resonance doesnt give us anything more MH is claiming, and he further tried to deny that resonance even exists in the circuit in his theory, and even ignored the inductance effects in the whole of his explanation other than there is transformer action and thats it, let alone also ignoring the fact that when the switch is open that the primary due to its own field collapes currents will charge the cap to possibly over 100v( some ign systems from around the world have differing results on that) to initiate the LC ring. Thats why I had said the resonance is initiated by the primary otherwise how would the cap get it high potential to begin with.

Mags

Mags

In regards to your comment that i would only approve MHs comments anyway-->only if his comment was on topic,and of a descent nature.
I hardly ever get on the forums anymore anyway.

Ok,regarding the topic at hand.

The condenser serves many purposes,and here is one to think about.

We all know that if we remove the condenser ,we get very erratic engine running--back firing through the carby-and all sorts.
But how could the timing be that advanced that it would backfire through the carby?..

First thing to do,would to be to look at the ignition coil,which is just a transformer--what is it's rated output voltage?
Most are between 30,000-40,000 volt's
So,the average supply voltage(battery voltage) when an engine is running,is around 14.4 volts.
Lets say our coil is one of the 30,000 volt one's.
The average turn ratio in an ignition coil is around 100:1

So in a transformer sense,100 x 14.4 would give us a voltage of 1440v at the secondary when the points close.-->Remember,we are talking about normal transformer voltage produced here,and not flyback voltage produced across the secondary--which is where the 30,000 volts comes from.

Most plug gaps are between 1 and 1.2mm
It takes 1000v per mm to form an arc within the environment of the engine cylinder  ;)

What roll dose the condenser play here in this one example?.


Brad
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on October 28, 2017, 02:54:07 AM
Quote
Im not going to waste my time on a test that is padded and loaded to block any resonance that could be had.

Change the ugly knife switch for a spring-loaded SPST switch to get a better more consistent spark with and without the capacitor and use a sniffer coil to check what is going on with the ignition spark on the secondary output.  That's a "padded and loaded" test?
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 28, 2017, 03:53:11 AM
Mags

In regards to your comment that i would only approve MHs comments anyway-->only if his comment was on topic,and of a descent nature.
I hardly ever get on the forums anymore anyway.

Ok,regarding the topic at hand.

The condenser serves many purposes,and here is one to think about.

We all know that if we remove the condenser ,we get very erratic engine running--back firing through the carby-and all sorts.
But how could the timing be that advanced that it would backfire through the carby?..

First thing to do,would to be to look at the ignition coil,which is just a transformer--what is it's rated output voltage?
Most are between 30,000-40,000 volt's
So,the average supply voltage(battery voltage) when an engine is running,is around 14.4 volts.
Lets say our coil is one of the 30,000 volt one's.
The average turn ratio in an ignition coil is around 100:1

So in a transformer sense,100 x 14.4 would give us a voltage of 1440v at the secondary when the points close.-->Remember,we are talking about normal transformer voltage produced here,and not flyback voltage produced across the secondary--which is where the 30,000 volts comes from.

Most plug gaps are between 1 and 1.2mm
It takes 1000v per mm to form an arc within the environment of the engine cylinder  ;)

What roll dose the condenser play here in this one example?.


Brad

Well I suppose that it was just coincidence that you happened by to approve MHS posts(2 out of 3 of them at first, then a bit later approving the 3rd one, that happened to be in between the first approved initially). That has me thinking he asked you to do so. And then said"hey you forgot one!! ::) ::) Like super man you appear, after what you say "I hardly ever get on the forums anymore anyway."  Just sayin.... ::)
Do as you wish. It is your responsibility here now. Im out on the moderation thing in this whole topic. Its all yours. Do as you will... Or is it Mhs will...


First thing I see, Is you come here as some authority on this, claiming that you havnt seen anyone fully describe the circuit yet. Well then if you are really 'in the know' about these ignition systems as they really should be, then 'you should know' that there is suppose to be a ballast resistor in series with the primary which would bring the actual coil voltage down to 6-7v, not this 14.4v as you clearly state here.  So you dont know what your talking about either. ;) Otherwise you would clearly know that the voltage across the coil could never be 14.4v as you stated it should be. And then you do some 100:1 calculations and so on.   ::) The only thing you got right there was the 100 to 1 ratio. Thats not hard to find in a quick search....



So what kind of alternators do you guys have down under that 14.4v is an average supply voltage?  Most that I see are 14v and under, closer to 13.5v. Have not seen any that do above 15v(unless it is a special after market unit that gives that), what you would say here, above average voltage. ::) ::) Anyway, I just wonder. Maybe they are that way there.. ill look it up 'to see for myself'. ;)


So now we get to the meat... 


"So in a transformer sense,100 x 14.4 would give us a voltage of 1440v at the secondary when the points close.-->Remember,we are talking about normal transformer voltage produced here,and not flyback voltage produced across the secondary--which is where the 30,000 volts comes from.

Most plug gaps are between 1 and 1.2mm
It takes 1000v per mm to form an arc within the environment of the engine cylinder  ;)

What roll dose the condenser play here in this one example?."


So ok. we will go with your professional opinion that the voltage across the primary is fantasy land 14.4v. If your still ok with that.. ??? ;)

Now you say that when the switch closes and we are now putting 14.4 fantasy volts across the primary, and that the normal transformer would produce the also fantasy 1440v at the secondary output, AND then your "Most plug gaps are between 1 and 1.2mm", AND your "It takes 1000v per mm to form an arc", Then why does the spark not occur when the points close and only appear when the points open? ??? ??? ??? ?? Clearly you are stating that the gap in the spark plug is the proper distance of 1-1.2mm and that 1000v can jump 1mm and the sec develops 1440v that should be able to jump that gap of 1mm and even 1.2mm!!!  Did you read that?? Read it again! 

lol  You do not know what you claim to know brad. Simple as that you do not know.  ;) ;) It is just MH bullshit from start to finish... Do you still stand buy all that you have said here? ??? ??


So dont ever come into MY thread and tell me how it is, acting as if I dont know, unless you really know what your talking about. Because I will tear it up with your own words just like I did with MH. 


So then you finally say "What roll dose the condenser play here in this one example?."

From what I just exposed of your supposed authoritative knowledge on this subject, and you with all your vids on gas engines and such, I have no idea where you are going with that last question of "What roll dose the condenser play here in this one example?."  No idea at all.  Even if you had it right in all the other parts of your post, Im still at large with your question of the caps roll here by going on your supposed in depth description.    ::) ::) ::)

Your description is full of holes and far from complete as to ask that last question and and expect an answer based on the rest of your description. More MH handywork. ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)


Ever since you had the problems that occurred for you because of your presenting info on you rotary transformer, you appear to be someone else now. You are not the same guy I once respected here before all that. I dont know exactly what happened then, but I do know some. But what ever it was and however hard it hit you, you are a different guy now.  Since then I have seen you do this same thing you have done here in your post. You barge in and slap down some stuff that just aint right at all and say its conclusive, move along folks, nothing more to see here. And I truly believe your conversations here on this would end on that note if I hadnt put you in your place just now..

Sorry brad, but it is what it is..

Mags

edit   Was saving this to blow away a response to this post, but couldnt wait  ;D
The rest of my reply is at the top of the next page...
http://overunity.com/17482/the-old-standard-ignition-system-battery-coil-points-and-condenser/msg512321/#msg512321
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 28, 2017, 03:59:39 AM
I see your post waiting for approval MH. You will have to wait for your side kick brad to approve your posts from now on.  Im not really interested in your bullshit side winder talk any longer. So sit and wait for your buddy to come to your beck and call.   Im done here with you.  Clearly a waste of time putting this thread up for your twisting of reality as you have shown in your description of this circuit..

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 28, 2017, 04:02:47 AM
You have brad do your tests MH.  Im not doing anything for you.  Just a simple response to your yet to be approved post.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 28, 2017, 04:12:42 AM
One thing i am going to do here in MY thread daily, starting tomorrow, is post the links to MHs and brads descriptions and the links to my replys after the fact. Just so they dont get lost in the mess you are using to cover those up as people forget soon enough. Right M?? 8) Well Im going to keep reminding the readers, every day... And if Brad moderates ME because of it? I will have a nice discussion on this with Stefan and get brad off of moderation here. With all the facts of what is going on, Im sure I can make that happen.  ;)

I have made screen shots of the posts and page saves that i talk about above. So if brad does a hilary clinton and 'wipes' the thread of all that, I still have the proof that it existed.. I take that idea from Tk. He does that also, and some others.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 28, 2017, 06:05:07 AM
I was going to save this in case there is a rebuttal to my reply to brad..  But I just cant contain it any longer  ;D ;D ;D ;D   See I do this stuff, like leaving out the balast resistor functions of basically cutting the battery voltage in half for the primary, not commenting on this what I present below of the part of brads post I didnt cover in my reply, so that when the discussion goes on, I have ultimate ammo for my later posts and destroy the target. Ive been doing that for years here and it works very well..   Its not unfair that I do so. Its smart.  If others like Mh and in this case brad, wants to do technical knowledge battle on this field, then I will use this strategy and their own words to beat them..  Truly i dont wish for these battles. But they do occur for many of us.. So take that as a piece of advice when you are arguing something you really know about and someone disputes it. If they do have it all wrong, you will win the battle with these 2 strategical technical battle methods every time. ;) ;)

Notice i didnt say anything to this in brads post....

"Ok,regarding the topic at hand.

The condenser serves many purposes,and here is one to think about.

We all know that if we remove the condenser ,we get very erratic engine running--back firing through the carby-and all sorts.
But how could the timing be that advanced that it would backfire through the carby?.."


This is the reason for the question that is in the end of brads post.....

"What roll dose the condenser play here in this one example?"

What he is trying to imply is that there would be a spark when the points close.  Again,  "What roll dose the condenser play here in this one example?

This has MH all over it to make up a fantasy reason for the cap to say it does something other than help give resonance to the system just like Mh did in his first post!!  Exactly the same motive!! MH splattered all over it. ;) Follow me hear....

The statement was  "We all know that if we remove the condenser ,we get very erratic engine running--back firing through the carby-and all sorts.
But how could the 'timing' be that advanced that it would backfire through the carby?.."

All to suggest that there would be a spark when the points close for the reasons brad described later in the post. He is saying specifically about the timing advance as if the spark did occur when the switch closed, it would be sparking way before the compression stroke completes.. Well then, how does the cap solve that issue if the cap is shorted by the closed points switch? ??? ??  That is what the questions answer is suppose to conclude, that the cap helps in some way to prevent this spark when the contacts close and the secondary 'supposedly' gives a spark!!!!.. ;) ;) ;)   Huge fail and MH has his twisting little finger prints all over it and still cant get it right trying to do so just like in his first post here that I approved for discussion.  And then I destroyed him. lol ;D

Those in the know of this circuit should agree 110%. 

Brad, the only way out of this mess is to admit that MH came up with the whole thing and you posted it as your own thoughts.  I know that you 'should' know better than this..   ;)   So here is your chance at an out here..  How do I know that MH came up with that twisted concoction?  Ive been here for 10 years and had a 'Lot' of experience dealing with him twisting things so badly that I just tear it up with his own words just like I did with your post and with his post.  It has his "the cap cannot oscillate with the primary no way no how" all over it just like his earlier description...By way of misdirection. By way of diversion tactics.... I would bet my membership here on this.. ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

But brad, if your sticking to your post as is, then Ill be waiting for your reply to explain it some how some way to make it right without changing anything.  Been here for what few hours now, rereading and rereading it all including my reply to be absolutely positive on this..  I got it right and you simply do not know what your talking about period. And that is sad if it is so..

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 28, 2017, 10:05:18 AM
Ya know what people? I have in the past suggested MH is an anti free energy shill. He does not like it in the least and freaks out about it. Well this whole thing here is just one example of why I have had those thoughts....

Think.  Lets say some of you do agree that the cap and primary do oscillate to produce a longer and more powerful spark.  Why is it that MH will go to great lengths to dispute this fact? Why if in his supposed genius big description of how the circuit works, completely and utterly destroys any idea that there would be any AC currents happening in the circuits operation what so ever. In his description there was no inductive actions of the primary in series with the cap when the switch is open and the cap would only ever see max voltage of 12vdc only, equal to the battery voltage meanwhile insists there is NEVER any AC, and the cap is an AC cap that is rated above 100 volts at least and max ive seen is 600vac range Because he is not as good at this stuff like he says he is? Nah. He knows exactly what he is doing. Correct him on that and it doesnt even phase him. He will conjure up another diversion tactic explanation to be completely absent of any resonant oscillations between the cap and primary and also even try to invent other ways of the reason for the cap, and those reasons so far are so ridiculous he has brad saying the cap while across a just closed switch will stop the spark that happens when you close the switch!!! Its so terrible that brad I believe will either not come back here or he will have to own up to the fact that it was all MHs words of purposeful misinformation just so brad can save brads own reputation. Im very comfortable and confident that this will occur. Brad gets up about 4am and comes and reads this and we will see. I seriously dont think brad has any other choice. I dont think brad came up with that scheme. Or is he shilling also? Nah that post is all MHs format, all of what brad wrote. Dont understand why he did that. If MH has it his way, as brads post goes "The condenser serves many purposes,and here is one to think about" he will give any other possible reasons for the cap being in the circuit, even making stuff up that makes no sense at all, thinking none of us would be the wiser, to completely avoid any possibilities of resonance in the circuit..  Darn tootin it was Mhs words.. ;) ;) Brad is way smarter than that. But again why this? ???

If MH is is so good at this stuff, then why cant he see the possibilities of an LC oscillation after the switch opens? Why cant he see that the field that the primary produced in the first place with the switch closed and then when it opens can induce the primary just as good as it would the secondary and pump the hundreds of volts rated cap up to more than 12v at some point in the cycle of operation?? Why imply as in brads post that the cap somehow prevents a spark on the secondary, when we ALL should know this particular spark when the switch closes cannot happen and it does not happen and will only happen when the switch opens, and suggest that the spark is killed off by a cap that is shorted by the same closed switch at the time the supposed spark is suppose to happen as described in brads post? ??? ??? MH THINKS WE ARE ALL STUPID! WE WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO WORK OUT THE ISSUE OF HIS BS DESCRIPTION! Diversion tactics. And if one doesnt work out and he is fully called on it, he comes up with an even stupider one. And then another one and another one.. Its all about keeping on the heat no matter if he is caught in the act, then just come up with a new attack again and again, etc ,etc It is all about destroying the idea of resonance because it does provide a gain as I claim. Every single time I have brought up resonance in the past he has interjected and fights it to a brutal end. He IS an anti free energy shill. I mean hey, if my claim that resonance can give us an appreciable gain is not correct, then he should be able to debunk my claim easily with real circuit descriptions without any flaws, if he is so smart. ;) If I am wrong then brad should be able to debunk my claim very easily also. brad has a scope, works with engines, Im sure he has a coil and proper condenser around. But brad was shilled into posting what he did. maybe the issue brad had with the rotary transformer put him into a position that this is what he does now. I would hope not. Idont know. I like brad. but this here went way overboard and I have to stand my ground. When I posted that he may post his idea of the workings of the circuit, I did say that i would like to see just that, I knew i could beat it because that is how much i know Im right here, and I did just that.   I hope that is not the case and he says he posted what MH was asking him to and didnt pay attn to what it was all about.  I really hope that is the case, because Brads post has just as many seriously bad flaws as MHs post does.

But no. MH cannot debunk my claim legitimately.Cant do it. He has to twist his so called analysis to a point of impossibilities and fantastical functions and operations to try and do so and fail again and again, it is never ending. Cant come up with 1 GOOD reason why my claim is bad. Cant make a clean actual working circuit that explains his end. There is always 1 or more serious problems. And when I bust him on it he makes up another one and still acts as he knows it all and i know nothing. Again, it has to be he is a shill.. Such great lengths to no end.  Gotta be a paycheck at the end of that string he is tied to. If not, then he is just a whack job to the extreme. lol

He at time says he is just here to help people understand electronics and that none of us know anything.  But he cant even admit there is an oscillation between the primary and the cap when the primary dumps its collapse currents into the cap. Simple stuff. He will use the diversion tactic to reduce the possibility to nill to instill this into the reader minds, as can clearly be seen in his first post on this thread, and run off the presenter of the idea with a constant barrage of posts that just overthrow the threads to being useless. Well Im not running away from it like he would wish. Read his first post on the second page.  Its completely devoid of any inductive actions other than the transformer action and that is it. LITERALLY anything to avoid an inkling of the cap being anything but a pathway for the battery alone to "pump" (his words) the primary through the .14uf cap and the cap only ever sees 12v max. Charge the cap to 200v and dump that across the primary. You will get a spark. 12v aint gunna cut it. Its just insane at this point. Respect his knowledge?? lol he knows exactly what he is trying to convince everyone here of. He knows.. If he keeps claiming he is so smart and nobody can even compare, then why would he get this all wrong over and over and over each time he tries? He isnt as smart as he says??  lol it is the other way around, He knows exactly what he is saying, and trying to rely on his statements that nobody here knows anything. Here is an example of that for pms the other day.....

This one is a reply to me...

"Yeah, you don't know shit.  You have been asked to explain the resonance mechanism and you can't do it.  You are unable to explain how a simple circuit with five lousy components works.  I think at this point that all of us would think because of the intensity of the debate that for sure you hooked your scope up to the primary of the coil to see what you would find.  You hooked it up and you tested it for sure.  You had to have done that, it simply doesn't make sense any other way.  And if you saw your holy grail of resonance you would have posted the clip right away and declared victory.  But you didn't see resonance and because you lie and you are unethical, you are doing the only thing you can do now in a vain and pathetic attempt to save face.  And that is to chicken out and lie again and put on airs that you can't be bothered and it's "obviously" a done deal.  It's pathetic and you have reduced yourself to the level of a hapless clown.

You literally cannot cope with saying that you did not find resonance.  You would have an internal mini nervous breakdown if you did - you are blocked.  So the little lying sleazy weasel kicks in because that's the only thing you can do to "escape."  You are pathetic, dude.  Your self-programming is a complete and utter disaster.

You want to prove me wrong that you are not some emotional cripple that doesn't have the guts to back up his claim that he stated over and over?

Then do the test like Carroll and myself are asking for, the simple test that you know you should do and is very easy to do - as per the way things work around here.  Show us how smart you are."



Well firstly at the end, I spoke to carrol on Mh contacting him to post his theory on my thread. Carrol said he had gotten that request but did not reply as he was busy and on the road. And said he will not post it for him. ;) So Mh lies.  Ill ask Carrol to verify that talk between me and him. or any of you can pm him for that answer for your selves. I dare ya. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Unethical??? Well lets see what carrol has to say about that.   ;) ;D

Man not showing the scope shot really has his panties in a bundle. As in, his undergarments all entangled in his crack.  The shots are coming. You probably think I dont know how to use my scope and didnt see it due to some issue or whatever and are counting on that idea so you perpetuate your stance until..... BOOM  your head pops off.  lol  Scared ya that I so far said it showed AC and higher voltages that 12v dc didnt it. lol  Sit on that a bit. Your world is going to change overnight.  ;)

But look how he tries to rip any possibility of resonance(oscillations between the cap and primary) to shreds.

Says in first line "Yeah, you don't know shit.  You have been asked to explain the resonance mechanism and you can't do it. "  Well i have been explaining it since before I opened the thread, which is before he says he AND carrol are asking.  lol carrol knows nothing of this.  ;) Any lengths to hurt my standing on this. Even using carrols name without his knowledge of such, and now he has used brad, and I have to be sure of it from all I have explained here so far.

Here is one to me in pm after the one above....

Well I just asked Carroll if he would post my explanation which will be written in proper technical English when discussing electronics, something that you clearly cannot do.  So when you say, "You cannot even come up with a reason why the circuit has more output with the cap than without," you are lying.  You know you are lying, and we all know that you are lying.  And you make the "condenser play" for something like the third or fourth time.  One more time, you are lying.  You are either a compulsive liar or a pathological liar."

Lol lies then calls me a liar.. thats rich isnt it? How many times here did he make YOU READ that I am a liar??  He is not just instilling the statement, He is installing it. The power of suggestion. Shill tactics 101. Get everyone to believe what you say by saying it again and again and again..... I read a lot of books on hypnosis in my early 20s. If anyone wants to know why, ask and I will post it. Its longer than I want to put here in this post. So ask and I will share that.



Then to me again...

"Now that I have asked Carroll to post my explanation in the thread you are either just balking and being irrational now that you know I am going to write it up, or you are alleging that I have found something online.  You are just lying some more.  And I think you are freaking out a bit because you have been stating all along that I have no analysis and I am bluffing.  You are probably dreading seeing me show you up for the bad and sad clown that you are.

I have been doing circuit analysis on this forum for YEARS and I have rock-solid integrity.  You're a fucking mental case."

He will stop at nothing and lie again and again.  After he reads this, lets see if he can get carrol to confirm any of his involvement as MH suggests.  It will not happen because carrol is not in this with him at all. I know. If any of you reading know him, send a message and ask him.. I will be vindicated and MH will be the liar here. bet on that 100%  lol its just too much ya know?

And then what he says of his years of circuit analysis here??? Well how many fantasy circuit descriptions does he have to come up with to debunk me before this years of circuit analysis becomes apparent to us the readers? ??? ??? ??? ??? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;) ;) ;)   Like I said, I beat him with his own words successfully. A lot!   ;D He gives me all the ammo I need. Its almost too simple, but I have also been here for about 8  9hrs straight. Why? Because it is important that people here know about this. Im not saving my ass. Im helping yours. Didnt save my ass at all. This shop stool is killing me right now.  :( ;D



And here is another one to me after that.. Notice that I have not shown the scope shots yet? lol Remember the 2 strategies for fighting the technical knowledge battles I spoke of earlier?  Well that one is still in the ammo box.  ;) ;D Just waiting for the specific target to be in my sights. I dont care at this point if I say this here. Mh will just pawn it off after reading this as I dont have the shots that shows resonant oscillations, until I do show them.. Then things will change.  You will see this soon. ;)
Lol he even says that even if his analysis is wrong "it's going to make you look and feel like a little clueless peon."  Oh really?  If anyone agrees with that then you need to reread his fake news analysis and then my reply on the second page here very carefully and tell me what you see then.

"Now, are you going to share the fact (that I am almost certain of) that you found NO RESONANCE with your peers on the thread and you are up a creek without a paddle?  Your pregnant pause is about to break water.  Are you going to try to use your noggin by talking with your peers and figure out what your scope shots are really telling you?  Or are you just going to play the sassy dumb ass bitch with attitude like a clown?
And when my analysis does get posted, even if it's wrong, it's going to make you look and feel like a little clueless peon.

Hey Magsy wagsy, how does the resonance work to make the spark stronger?  Doh!  It's LC resonance!  That's the ticket and that's the explanation and I'm sticking too it.  10 bloody years of working on the bench and lusting over resonance and that's all you got?  The forum has people just above background noise, and after 10 YEARS you are about 2 dB above background noise.  Keep winding those coils."


It goes on and on. All to try and debunk a claim that resonance give us a gain. And he takes it all the way and claims that there is no resonance at all.. nuts But not nuts.  He is shilling to the max on this.  This is my solid opinion and Ive said it many times over the years..   

Finally, this I predict. When I do the scope vid and show, he will say Im doing it all wrong and make all these different ways to put the scope with added parts for the benefit of the best scope shot reading, meanwhile the extra parts config will  kill off the resonance by way of the funked up design of the so called correct way to use the scope here, that will not show the resonance OR say that what we see is nothing but artifacts and it proves nothing.  lol been there before. I know..  On sunday I will show that prediction come to life.  ;D   ooo this is gunna be fun
Ok im tired and beat, And MH is a shill.  lol Tried to edit this as well as possible. Been here since 8pm doing all these posts looking over it all multiple times and it is now 402 am.  So there may still be some errors.

mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 28, 2017, 10:19:42 AM
And Brad, if you delete any of these posts before WE discuss it with Stefan in order to let him be the judge if need be, I will show stefan my page saves as full evidence that this crap is going on.
I promise you that.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 28, 2017, 12:08:36 PM
Just went over it all again. 

Why am I posting all this? Why am I hammering at it? Because my claim of gain by resonance is real. I am defending it to the hilt. Not one explanation by these to supposed professionals can get it right in their own claims of knowing how the circuit actually works as can be seen too clearly, to be a judge of whether resonance has anything to do with anything here. They havnt shown a workable circuit function theory yet.. But damned to be that the real actual circuit could do anything better because of the cap and resonance, it just has to be another explanation. :-\ ;) At this point they know they cannot change the circuit as thee circuit is well known as to how it is put together. The only thing they can do now is make up some concocted alternative unworkable actions and functions to try and debunk my claim.  Well it is all coming to a head here.  I want to see what comes of all this today before I show anything more with my setup.    Its sunday ammo. ;D   

I said before here that I have a dpdt relay with one half of the contacts rigged for buzz mode and the other set of contacts for points switches. Works nice.

Mags

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: norman6538 on October 28, 2017, 04:40:52 PM
Brad thanks for filling in the numbers to what I described. That makes it very clear....
The Tesla circuit it truly multifunctional and STILL VERY USEFULL  today in our internal
combustion engines.

Its too bad we have to have all this other distraction discussion.

Norman

Brad said

The condenser serves many purposes,and here is one to think about.

We all know that if we remove the condenser ,we get very erratic engine running--back firing through the carby-and all sorts.
But how could the timing be that advanced that it would backfire through the carby?..

First thing to do,would to be to look at the ignition coil,which is just a transformer--what is it's rated output voltage?
Most are between 30,000-40,000 volt's
So,the average supply voltage(battery voltage) when an engine is running,is around 14.4 volts.
Lets say our coil is one of the 30,000 volt one's.
The average turn ratio in an ignition coil is around 100:1

So in a transformer sense,100 x 14.4 would give us a voltage of 1440v at the secondary when the points close.-->Remember,we are talking about normal transformer voltage produced here,and not flyback voltage produced across the secondary--which is where the 30,000 volts comes from.

Most plug gaps are between 1 and 1.2mm
It takes 1000v per mm to form an arc within the environment of the engine cylinder  (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on October 28, 2017, 07:15:33 PM
Magluvin,

You are going a bit nuts, don't you think?  For starters, I had nothing to do with Brad's question.  I asked Carroll in PM if he would post my analysis.  I wasn't going to send it to him without a response from him first.

On more time, your behaviour in posting private PMs in public without asking for my permission was and is unethical.  I called you out on doing it the previous time in the first posting of the thread in a PM a few days ago, and here you are doing it again.

Going back to Brad's questions, I actually posted about the capacitor and ignition timing before Brad even posted his questions.

Here is the quote from post #47, <<< What I learned was the size of the capacitor will affect the ignition timing because the cap accepts the initial inrush of current when the points open and then reaches a voltage point where the current flow stops/the plasma ignites so obviously a larger capacitor will delay the onset of the ignition spark. >>>

So in response to Brad's queries, when you remove the capacitor then the spark plugs fire immediately when the points open and with the capacitor in place the spark plugs fire a few milliseconds after the points open.  So that's why you get the erratic engine running and the backfiring through the carburetor.  And if you replace a bad condenser with a new one that is twice the size in microfarads, that will delay the spark firing even further and mess up the timing of the engine.  I am not an engine person but I will assume that you don't get a plasma spark when the points close in a car engine because the spark has to jump two gaps to ignite the plasma, the spark plug itself and the distributor.  So that's something like 30,000 volts.

As far as your wild rant about the resonance issue goes, well here goes:  I wrote up my analysis completely "cold" without having read anything.  I thought that the secondary was so strong in its HV potential that it ignited the spark plasma right away, even before the capacitor charged up.  If this was the case then the points wold be safe. Then I found out that I was completely wrong.  In hindsight, it was even dumb because I failed to think about the fact that the capacitor was a legitimate path for the coil to keep the current flowing.  So I went online to check into the resonance issue and at the same time I was learning more about the ignition process and the ignition timing.  So what I learned was when the points open, you don't get the ignition spark right away because current flows into the capacitor at first and this delays the onset of the plasma ignition.  Duh!  By the time the primary hits about 300 volts, the secondary is at about 30,000 volts and that is enough voltage to bridge two spark gaps and ignite two instances of plasma.  In your test setup, something similar would happen but with the single spark gap.  I did all of my research and shared my results in postings and learned stuff in the process.  And at this point I think I could even do a preliminary timing diagram for your test setup - but you never ever do timing diagrams, do you?

When inductors discharge into resistive loads, they don't resonate.  The plasma is a non-linear resistor, therefore there is no resonance.  And I know that when an inductor discharges into a plasma, essentially all of the energy stored in the inductor is drained away in one shot.  And that is fundamentally what the ignition of a spark plug is, and that's why I said there was no resonance.

And you and Carroll both basically said, "there is an LC and that's what LCs do, they resonate."  So you and Carroll were also dead wrong.  You thought that there was a big LC ring-down from the get-go making the plasma spark.  It's not the case, what happens from what I can see from my current perspective is that while the secondary is doing the continuous DC plasma burn, the primary stays at high  potential and then when the main burn is over the energy in the cap does an innocuous ring-down to dissipate the remaining energy in the cap with no plasma generation.  There is your "resonance" that you didn't have a clue about (just like me) and now you are trying to hitch a ride on that but in reality it has nothing to do with your original one-liner "explanation" for how the circuit operates.

I posted in good faith and I learned some stuff during my research.  There are some very relevant questions posted at the end of my technical postings that would shed a lot of light into things if you followed through on them.  There are some very simple tests that I suggested the possibility of that could answer some very basic questions.  But I did not say what the simple tests would be, I want to see if you can come up with your own tests to follow through.  In other words, no "paint by numbers" experimenting - come up with some tests yourself.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on October 28, 2017, 07:36:31 PM
Oh yeah, and as far as me being an "anti-resonance shill" goes or "someone is paying me" goes, that has nothing to do with me and says a lot about you.  It feels like we are on our way towards another "fail" doesn't it?  You yourself brought up the question about the ignition circuit and the capacitor to me, and as of yet we have no data from you, just some "show and don't tell" observational clips.  You claim that you are going to show some real data on Sunday, and all that I can say is bring it on.  After all, it would be a miracle if an experiment could be performed and come to a successful conclusion with everybody understanding what is taking place and everybody being on the same page.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 28, 2017, 09:06:54 PM
Brad thanks for filling in the numbers to what I described. That makes it very clear....
The Tesla circuit it truly multifunctional and STILL VERY USEFULL  today in our internal
combustion engines.

Its too bad we have to have all this other distraction discussion.

Norman

Brad said

The condenser serves many purposes,and here is one to think about.

We all know that if we remove the condenser ,we get very erratic engine running--back firing through the carby-and all sorts.
But how could the timing be that advanced that it would backfire through the carby?..

First thing to do,would to be to look at the ignition coil,which is just a transformer--what is it's rated output voltage?
Most are between 30,000-40,000 volt's
So,the average supply voltage(battery voltage) when an engine is running,is around 14.4 volts.
Lets say our coil is one of the 30,000 volt one's.
The average turn ratio in an ignition coil is around 100:1

So in a transformer sense,100 x 14.4 would give us a voltage of 1440v at the secondary when the points close.-->Remember,we are talking about normal transformer voltage produced here,and not flyback voltage produced across the secondary--which is where the 30,000 volts comes from.

Most plug gaps are between 1 and 1.2mm
It takes 1000v per mm to form an arc within the environment of the engine cylinder  (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

Ok norman. He describes in detail that there can be a spark when the points connect. This is not when the spark happens.  Try it. Cap or no cap, 14.4v, 12vin or even 7vin. You will never get a spark at the plug when the contacts close like brad described. Cannot happen. So if there were this spark when the switch closes, the cap would not do anything in the circuit to stop that spark brad is talking about, because the switch is shorting the cap when the switch is closed.  So it is not correct. Not at all. Just try and find the info brad presented on the net.  You will not find that explanation anywhere. Because it does not occur ever when the contacts close. Never.

Brads post was all a fabrication of imagination, and I dont believe it was his fabrication, I believe MH gave him the explanation to post. Brad is too sharp for that I believe. I dont know why brad even posted it, whether it was his own words or MHs. Just dont know why.

And if the ballast resistor is in series with the primary, there would only be 6-7v across the primary when the switch closes not 14.4v.  So in his 100:1 transformer, the transformer action would only provide 699-700v at the secondary, not 1440v like he said.   Its all wrong bud, from beginning to end all wrong. 

I was running the coil in my 2 vids with a 12v battery direct without a ballast resistor and there was no sparks when the switch closes, let alone a very weak spark that the gap i had for showing the spark had to be within only a mm  to happen when the switch opens without the cap installed. And that only happens when the contacts open and there is a very quick field collapse after the contacts open, and never happens when we just first close the contact for the primary field to first build. Never happens, not even at 14.4v input while the car is running, and surely not at 12.8v battery when trying to start, and it wouldt even be 12.8v during the engine start period, because the starter motor pulls that 12.8v down even further while cranking.  His story is absolutely not true.  You can count on that Norman. ;)

I did a lot of thinking and writing here last night.  All of it, making sure it was all as accurate as my tired eyes could see. Almost 11hrs straight. Why?  Well being brads explanation was just as bad as MHs explanation, it all needed to be said for the record. Im simply astonished that brad would post such a thing.  Look it over.  Brads is all wrong for the explanation of the cap function. MHs explanation for the cap is all wrong. I felt like Al Pacino.  Your out of order! And your out of order! Your all out of order!! lol And Im right to say so. ;)

I dare anyone else to step up to the plate and defend either NHs or brads explanations. I will beat that challenge up and down these pages again and again, with just words alone. ;)

Mags

Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: norman6538 on October 28, 2017, 10:24:24 PM
Brad said a few messages back.

So in a transformer sense,100 x 14.4 would give us a voltage of 1440v at the secondary when the points close.--

And I missed that. I was enamered by the numbers that he plugged in and overlooked the CLOSE word.

I think Mags is partly right and partly wrong. A rising voltage could cause induction and 100 x 14.4 when the
magnetic field builds up and 1440 may jump the gap but the most spark will come  when the points
open and the backemf has more than 14.4 to put into the cap and then the secondary more than 1440 each time
after when it recycles back and forth till the voltage drops and the spark cannot jump the gap anymore.

We'll get this wikipedia thing right soon.

Norman
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 28, 2017, 11:26:36 PM
Brad said a few messages back.

So in a transformer sense,100 x 14.4 would give us a voltage of 1440v at the secondary when the points close.--

And I missed that. I was enamered by the numbers that he plugged in and overlooked the CLOSE word.

I think Mags is partly right and partly wrong. A rising voltage could cause induction and 100 x 14.4 when the
magnetic field builds up and 1440 may jump the gap but the most spark will come  when the points
open and the backemf has more than 14.4 to put into the cap and then the secondary more than 1440 each time
after when it recycles back and forth till the voltage drops and the spark cannot jump the gap anymore.

We'll get this wikipedia thing right soon.

Norman

Im not gettig where you think Im part wrong. I do not agree with anything of brads explanation except the 100:1 ratios, and some are different. But that 100:1 will work here


Wikipedia is not a source that I trust on all things

If resonance gives a gain as i claim, then why are these 2 guys coming up with circuits to dispute that resonance even exists, and the circuits they use to do so are so flawed that they wont work as they say it does, and I have proved that for both to the T.  So why cant they explain why the resonance doesnt exist with an actual circuit explanation that ACTUALLY WORKS????? Think man!   Mh will use anything and everything to instill into the readers minds that resonance does not even exist in the circuit let alone that there is a gain to be had.  Why?  Because this is his job. He is the disinformation man. OU does not exist.  And he is trying to discredit my claim with everything in the book to try and ensure that the readers do not take what i say seriously.  He is the Monsanto of free energy. Monsanto is trying to rid the world of organic God made foods and say their gmo is better, when it its not. It has major porblems. If you dont know what Im talking about then i suggest you dig into the subject for the safety of you and yours. Mh is the same for any claims of free energy and the components there of that could get us free energy, like resonance and the gains I claim it gives for one..

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: norman6538 on October 28, 2017, 11:52:25 PM
Ok, I give up. We are down to semantics, nitpicking and dotting the i's....

With my understanding and some posts that add to my understanding I have a more
complete and satisfactory understanding - so don't confuse me with either the facts or
the truth.

Not really. I will listen but a little more lightly on this subject.

Norman
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 29, 2017, 12:02:16 AM
Ok, I give up. We are down to semantics, nitpicking and dotting the i's....

With my understanding and some posts that add to my understanding I have a more
complete and satisfactory understanding - so don't confuse me with either the facts or
the truth.

Not really. I will listen but a little more lightly on this subject.

Norman

lol ok norman  I wont explain anything to you directly again.

So Id prefer if you just read rather than post. Its not helping anything especially if you dont understand the foundations of how the circuit works.

So like you said, just listen, how ever lightly you wish. I wont notice either way

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on October 29, 2017, 01:22:02 AM
 author=Magluvin link=topic=17482.msg512317#msg512317 date=1509155591]



Quote
Well I suppose that it was just coincidence that you happened by to approve MHS posts(2 out of 3 of them at first, then a bit later approving the 3rd one, that happened to be in between the first approved initially). That has me thinking he asked you to do so. And then said"hey you forgot one!! ::) ::) Like super man you appear, after what you say "I hardly ever get on the forums anymore anyway."  Just sayin.... ::)
Do as you wish. It is your responsibility here now. Im out on the moderation thing in this whole topic. Its all yours. Do as you will... Or is it Mhs will...

Not sure if your having a bad day,or have had to much whacky weed Mag's,but i have not approved or removed any ones posts in this thread--i have done nothing but read,and make the comments i made--thats it.

Quote
First thing I see, Is you come here as some authority on this, claiming that you havnt seen anyone fully describe the circuit yet. Well then if you are really 'in the know' about these ignition systems as they really should be, then 'you should know' that there is suppose to be a ballast resistor in series with the primary which would bring the actual coil voltage down to 6-7v, not this 14.4v as you clearly state here.  So you dont know what your talking about either. ;) Otherwise you would clearly know that the voltage across the coil could never be 14.4v as you stated it should be. And then you do some 100:1 calculations and so on.   ::) The only thing you got right there was the 100 to 1 ratio. Thats not hard to find in a quick search....

First up--!some! ignition systems use a ballast resistor--every seen one on a motorcycle that has points ignition?. Most high performance points ignition systems have no ballast resistor,nor do a lot of coils require a ballast resistor.

Second--a resistor reduces current flow-not voltage.
The voltage will appear across the coil,regardless of the resistor or not.
The ballast resistor is to reduce the time constant(the rate at which current rises in the coil)--the larger the series resistance,the shorter the time constant.
This allows your ignition coil to operate at a higher frequency--higher RPM.

Quote
So what kind of alternators do you guys have down under that 14.4v is an average supply voltage?  Most that I see are 14v and under, closer to 13.5v. Have not seen any that do above 15v(unless it is a special after market unit that gives that), what you would say here, above average voltage. ::) ::) Anyway, I just wonder. Maybe they are that way there.. ill look it up 'to see for myself'. ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzz7P3qNHcE

Quote
Now you say that when the switch closes and we are now putting 14.4 fantasy volts across the primary, and that the normal transformer would produce the also fantasy 1440v at the secondary output, AND then your "Most plug gaps are between 1 and 1.2mm", AND your "It takes 1000v per mm to form an arc", Then why does the spark not occur when the points close and only appear when the points open? ??? ??? ??? ?? Clearly you are stating that the gap in the spark plug is the proper distance of 1-1.2mm and that 1000v can jump 1mm and the sec develops 1440v that should be able to jump that gap of 1mm and even 1.2mm!!!  Did you read that?? Read it again!


I think you missed the whole question Mags,which was--why do you think the engine runs rough and back fires when there is no condenser ?
I basically answered this for you,and you missed it.

Quote
So ok. we will go with your professional opinion that the voltage across the primary is fantasy land 14.4v. If your still ok with that.. ??? ;)


I am.
https://itstillruns.com/output-voltage-gm-alternators-7754415.html

Quote
lol  You do not know what you claim to know brad. Simple as that you do not know.  ;) ;) It is just MH bullshit from start to finish... Do you still stand buy all that you have said here? ??? ??

I do  :D

Quote
So dont ever come into MY thread and tell me how it is, acting as if I dont know, unless you really know what your talking about. Because I will tear it up with your own words just like I did with MH.

Well Mag's--you are having a bad day.

Seems like one of us know the operating voltage of a vehicles electrical system.

Quote
From what I just exposed of your supposed authoritative knowledge on this subject

What part did you expose exactly ?.

Quote
Your description is full of holes and far from complete as to ask that last question and and expect an answer based on the rest of your description. More MH handywork. ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

As i said,i basically answered the question for you.
What ever happened to people using there own smarts ?.

Quote
Ever since you had the problems that occurred for you because of your presenting info on you rotary transformer, you appear to be someone else now. You are not the same guy I once respected here before all that. I dont know exactly what happened then, but I do know some. But what ever it was and however hard it hit you, you are a different guy now.  Since then I have seen you do this same thing you have done here in your post. You barge in and slap down some stuff that just aint right at all and say its conclusive, move along folks, nothing more to see here. And I truly believe your conversations here on this would end on that note if I hadnt put you in your place just now..

Sorry brad, but it is what it is..

But you did not put me in my place Mag's,as all that i quoted was correct,from the purpose of the ballast resistor,and the average operating voltage of a vehicles electrical system.

As far as the RT go's--that is best left dead and buried.


Brad
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on October 29, 2017, 01:24:44 AM
I see your post waiting for approval MH. You will have to wait for your side kick brad to approve your posts from now on.  Im not really interested in your bullshit side winder talk any longer. So sit and wait for your buddy to come to your beck and call.   Im done here with you.  Clearly a waste of time putting this thread up for your twisting of reality as you have shown in your description of this circuit..

Mags

What you can do Mags,is stop accusing me of doing shit i have not done.


Brad
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on October 29, 2017, 01:26:59 AM
One thing i am going to do here in MY thread daily, starting tomorrow, is post the links to MHs and brads descriptions and the links to my replys after the fact. Just so they dont get lost in the mess you are using to cover those up as people forget soon enough. Right M?? 8) Well Im going to keep reminding the readers, every day... And if Brad moderates ME because of it? I will have a nice discussion on this with Stefan and get brad off of moderation here. With all the facts of what is going on, Im sure I can make that happen.  ;)

I have made screen shots of the posts and page saves that i talk about above. So if brad does a hilary clinton and 'wipes' the thread of all that, I still have the proof that it existed.. I take that idea from Tk. He does that also, and some others.

Mags

Wow Mag's,this is like being in the twilight zone--WTF
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on October 29, 2017, 01:33:51 AM
I was going to save this in case there is a rebuttal to my reply to brad..  But I just cant contain it any longer  ;D ;D ;D ;D   See I do this stuff, like leaving out the balast resistor functions of basically cutting the battery voltage in half for the primary, not commenting on this what I present below of the part of brads post I didnt cover in my reply, so that when the discussion goes on, I have ultimate ammo for my later posts and destroy the target. Ive been doing that for years here and it works very well..   Its not unfair that I do so. Its smart.  If others like Mh and in this case brad, wants to do technical knowledge battle on this field, then I will use this strategy and their own words to beat them..  Truly i dont wish for these battles. But they do occur for many of us.. So take that as a piece of advice when you are arguing something you really know about and someone disputes it. If they do have it all wrong, you will win the battle with these 2 strategical technical battle methods every time. ;) ;)

Notice i didnt say anything to this in brads post....

"Ok,regarding the topic at hand.

The condenser serves many purposes,and here is one to think about.

We all know that if we remove the condenser ,we get very erratic engine running--back firing through the carby-and all sorts.
But how could the timing be that advanced that it would backfire through the carby?.."


This is the reason for the question that is in the end of brads post.....

"What roll dose the condenser play here in this one example?"

What he is trying to imply is that there would be a spark when the points close.  Again,  "What roll dose the condenser play here in this one example?

This has MH all over it to make up a fantasy reason for the cap to say it does something other than help give resonance to the system just like Mh did in his first post!!  Exactly the same motive!! MH splattered all over it. ;) Follow me hear....

The statement was  "We all know that if we remove the condenser ,we get very erratic engine running--back firing through the carby-and all sorts.
But how could the 'timing' be that advanced that it would backfire through the carby?.."

All to suggest that there would be a spark when the points close for the reasons brad described later in the post. He is saying specifically about the timing advance as if the spark did occur when the switch closed, it would be sparking way before the compression stroke completes.. Well then, how does the cap solve that issue if the cap is shorted by the closed points switch? ??? ??  That is what the questions answer is suppose to conclude, that the cap helps in some way to prevent this spark when the contacts close and the secondary 'supposedly' gives a spark!!!!.. ;) ;) ;)   Huge fail and MH has his twisting little finger prints all over it and still cant get it right trying to do so just like in his first post here that I approved for discussion.  And then I destroyed him. lol ;D

Those in the know of this circuit should agree 110%. 

Brad, the only way out of this mess is to admit that MH came up with the whole thing and you posted it as your own thoughts.  I know that you 'should' know better than this..   ;)   So here is your chance at an out here..  How do I know that MH came up with that twisted concoction?  Ive been here for 10 years and had a 'Lot' of experience dealing with him twisting things so badly that I just tear it up with his own words just like I did with your post and with his post.  It has his "the cap cannot oscillate with the primary no way no how" all over it just like his earlier description...By way of misdirection. By way of diversion tactics.... I would bet my membership here on this.. ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

But brad, if your sticking to your post as is, then Ill be waiting for your reply to explain it some how some way to make it right without changing anything.  Been here for what few hours now, rereading and rereading it all including my reply to be absolutely positive on this..  I got it right and you simply do not know what your talking about period. And that is sad if it is so..

Mags

Well Mag's,it looks like your ammo backfired this time,as the running voltages and explanation of the ballast resistors operation in the circuit is correct.

Im really not sure what has happened to you,but you are way of the mark with !all! your accusations toward me-like teaming up with MH-->really :o


Brad
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on October 29, 2017, 01:35:27 AM
And Brad, if you delete any of these posts before WE discuss it with Stefan in order to let him be the judge if need be, I will show stefan my page saves as full evidence that this crap is going on.
I promise you that.

Mags

As i said--i have not approved or deleted any posts in this thread--nor will i do so.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on October 29, 2017, 01:53:12 AM
Im not gettig where you think Im part wrong. I do not agree with anything of brads explanation except the 100:1 ratios, and some are different. But that 100:1 will work here


Wikipedia is not a source that I trust on all things

If resonance gives a gain as i claim, then why are these 2 guys coming up with circuits to dispute that resonance even exists, and the circuits they use to do so are so flawed that they wont work as they say it does, and I have proved that for both to the T.  So why cant they explain why the resonance doesnt exist with an actual circuit explanation that ACTUALLY WORKS????? Think man!   Mh will use anything and everything to instill into the readers minds that resonance does not even exist in the circuit let alone that there is a gain to be had.  Why?  Because this is his job. He is the disinformation man. OU does not exist.  And he is trying to discredit my claim with everything in the book to try and ensure that the readers do not take what i say seriously.  He is the Monsanto of free energy. Monsanto is trying to rid the world of organic God made foods and say their gmo is better, when it its not. It has major porblems. If you dont know what Im talking about then i suggest you dig into the subject for the safety of you and yours. Mh is the same for any claims of free energy and the components there of that could get us free energy, like resonance and the gains I claim it gives for one..

Mags

First up mag's,i have never said that you are incorrect about resonance--we leave that till later.

I said that the condenser has many roles to play,and asked about just one of those rolls.

What i have said has been correct--
The voltage of a vehicles  electrical system is around 14.4 volt's
And the ballast resistors roll is to lower the L/R time constant,to allow for higher operational frequencies-->higher RPM.

I guess it's time to throw together a points ignition system,and see what we have--Yea?.


Brad
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 29, 2017, 02:40:04 AM
author=Magluvin link=topic=17482.msg512317#msg512317 date=1509155591]



Not sure if your having a bad day,or have had to much whacky weed Mag's,but i have not approved or removed any ones posts in this thread--i have done nothing but read,and make the comments i made--thats it.

No wacky weed.  But I just looked at the moderation log and Stefan approved them apparently. Didnt know I could see who 'else' did.  I bases it on your posting just a couple hours after they we approved. So sorry on that. ;) It wasnt me, I only approved the posts before that. Wasnt grum as he and i have be conversing lately. Also didnt know us 3 were not the only ones to moderate here.

First up--!some! ignition systems use a ballast resistor--every seen one on a motorcycle that has points ignition?. Most high performance points ignition systems have no ballast resistor,nor do a lot of coils require a ballast resistor.

Second--a resistor reduces current flow-not voltage.
The voltage will appear across the coil,regardless of the resistor or not.
The ballast resistor is to reduce the time constant(the rate at which current rises in the coil)--the larger the series resistance,the shorter the time constant.
This allows your ignition coil to operate at a higher frequency--higher RPM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzz7P3qNHcE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzz7P3qNHcE)


 

I think you missed the whole question Mags,which was--why do you think the engine runs rough and back fires when there is no condenser ?
I basically answered this for you,and you missed it.
 

I am.
https://itstillruns.com/output-voltage-gm-alternators-7754415.html (https://itstillruns.com/output-voltage-gm-alternators-7754415.html)

I do  :D

Well Mag's--you are having a bad day.

Seems like one of us know the operating voltage of a vehicles electrical system.

What part did you expose exactly ?.

As i said,i basically answered the question for you.
What ever happened to people using there own smarts ?.

But you did not put me in my place Mag's,as all that i quoted was correct,from the purpose of the ballast resistor,and the average operating voltage of a vehicles electrical system.

As far as the RT go's--that is best left dead and buried.


Brad

"Not sure if your having a bad day,or have had to much whacky weed Mag's,but i have not approved or removed any ones posts in this thread--i have done nothing but read,and make the comments i made--thats it"

No wacky weed.  But I just looked at the moderation log and Stefan approved them apparently. Didnt know I could see who 'else' did.  I bases it on your posting just a couple hours after they we approved. So sorry on that. ;) It wasnt me, I only approved the posts before that. Wasnt grum as he and i have be conversing lately. Also didnt know us 3 were not the only ones to moderate here.

"First up--!some! ignition systems use a ballast resistor--every seen one on a motorcycle that has points ignition?. Most high performance points ignition systems have no ballast resistor,nor do a lot of coils require a ballast resistor.



Second--a resistor reduces current flow-not voltage.
The voltage will appear across the coil,regardless of the resistor or not.
The ballast resistor is to reduce the time constant(the rate at which current rises in the coil)--the larger the series resistance,the shorter the time constant.
This allows your ignition coil to operate at a higher frequency--higher RPM."

The ballast resistor is commonly 1ohm like the primary. With it in series with the coil during closed points time, the amount of current flowing is only as much as the total resistance. It becomes a voltage divider. 12v becomes 6v across each. Simple I=v/r  When the points are open there is no voltage across the coil with just the ign sw on. Only the cap has 12v.  just using 12v here. 14.4 would be 7.2v each. Dealt with this with one of the guys at my previous work as they didnt understand why there wasnt anything near 12 on the col primary and was searching for why. So I showed him why with the meter just like I said it above.

"I think you missed the whole question Mags,which was--why do you think the engine runs rough and back fires when there is no condenser ?
I basically answered this for you,and you missed it."

Well if the plug is firing sometimes and a weak spark even if it does spark every time without the cap, there will not always be a burn in the cycle and the cyl can get a little loaded with fuel, more than would be in a single cycle. This can cause backfire just like a bad plug, wire, whichever. Out of time can definitely cause backfire but it is more typical with retard. Just like a too rich mixture can cause backfire the same can happen when a cyl doesnt get a burn for a cycle or more due to a weak spark.  Like what you are saying is the advanced spark time that you speak of is ways off of when it should spark. Your talkin intake valve open right? For the the flames to come out of the carb that is way off timing. When it is suppose to spark is just before complete compression. You are sayin that the closure of the points for the spark you are talking about would be somewhere between intake valve just opening and when it closes just before compression begins. Id say that is not a point where the distributor rotor is even close enough to the particular plug wire terminal for the very weak spark to even jump let alone with the series opening of the plug gap.
Look up  What causes backfire and too rich will come up every time. If a cyl is not firing well and periodic burns, then the too rich deal would occur when it does happen to get a decent spark.  I did a search just now and see nothing that you describe in your post,  I had to do the search just to add to my argument that there cannot be a spark by way of when the switch closes, even if you have 20v in. Try it.  There will only be a spark when the switch opens due to the field collapse.

Can you show me a source link that covers just what you say is happening here? One that says there can be a spark when the points close if the condenser is removed?
If you can I will cut my toe off. Only if they can explain how the shorted cap when the switch is closed prevents this mystery spark. ;)

I dont buy it. Gotta show something other than just your opinion on that, of which it just may be an opinion and you are not stating it as a fact. Thats fine either way, but if you claim it is fact, does anyone else out there on the net agree with that?

The cyl is rich due to intermittent burns because of intermittent weak sparks because the cap is not there to help with making the spark stronger, thus back firings occur. Thats my story


here is the big issue. How does the cap affect this premature when the switch closes spark you speak of?   Ok so you say there is this spark that happens when the points switch closes, right? Well how would having the cap across the points switch help to prevent that spark you claim happens?  At this point if the spark you say can occur when the switch closes, the cap is now shorted when the switch closes. What is the caps function, while it is shorted across the closed switch that prevents this spark you are claiming happens when the switch closes??



Here is the question at the end of your post  "What roll dose the condenser play here in this one example?."  Well the answer is it plays no roll. it is dead shorted at the time of the switch closure... So is that a correct answer to that last question?  Because if it is, then the whole, spark when the switch closes when the cap is removed form the circuit, is all a farce. Because with the cap or without the cap this spark should occur and give you the same backfires with or without the cap!! Get it?

Right there shows it is definitely not as you say.   ;)   Can you agree that there is not this 'when points closed spark' whether the cap is there or not???

I mean you did say  "We all know that if we remove the condenser ,we get very erratic engine......"  Well? ???    If you agree that the spark you speak of does not occur period now, then why did you make it all up as if it is the way it is brad? ???

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 29, 2017, 03:24:00 AM
Im glad you dont disagree with the resonance Brad.  Do you agree we attain a gain in eff of in and out with this resonance? Pin should not really change cap or no cap. But with the cap we definitely get more out thus an efficiency gain.

That is my whole point. I really could care less if the points burn in 7 switchings or remains clean forever, or whether the piston has a hole in it. The gain is had by way of resonance.  My setup was direct battery just as shown in the 2 circuit examples MH posted, so I did it that way, and the results just by viewing the spark are apparent right away. We can say more with the cap. But MH refuses the resonance claim. Resonance is what this topic is all about and if he wants to show that resonance is not there, I will let him do that till he runs out of ideas before i show him the scope shots, mostly because Im tired of him sayin I dont know anything and he knows it all. Well I let him screw up time after time to show his so called circuit analysis skills are really bunk and we should know this if he is going to pretend to be what he is not. If someone tell you the wrong stuff all the time would you not want someone to tell you about it if you didnt really know for yourself? there are a lot of people here that just take things for what is said. It is discouraging. Im here for the real ou search. Im here to tell my end of it and not just keep it to myself. MHs posts are a LOT of what cant be done more than what can be done. I have issue with that because just here in this thread it shows and is bad in a way that he makes up stuff, and his analysis is bad. I cant let the readers fall for that. just as I cant let the readers believe in this spark brad speaks of as truth, because it isnt.

I was a bit caught up with the timing of your post brad and the timing of MHs posts being approved within a couple hours of your post, And then your post of the cap removed lets this switch on spark being wrong, unless you can explain it further the 'caps roll" thing better, I have to say that spark does not happen cap or not. It all had me thinking collisions with MH was there. So yeah I freaked out.  But I have to still say your post is not correct if the assumption is that there is a spark when the switch closes, cap or no cap.

Felt ganged up on a bit. Im dead serious on the resonance gain and if MH keeps trying to derail the resonance gain is false then I have to put out as much that it is and he puts out that it isnt.  Otherwise I may as well just go home or do other things than come here, put it out there and just let him make it all disappear just like that.


So Id like to see brads setup produce that switch on spark without the cap and goes away when the cap is present. That is the only way I would believe it. Ille set up right along side of him and try for myself. Thing is, the regular collapse spark is sooo weak, I cannot see the swiitch closure spark happening. And when I say cant see it, I mean I really I didnt see it. ;)   1mm gap, .5mm gap, .2mm gap.  No switch on spark occurs......

mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 29, 2017, 04:30:41 AM
Oh yeah, and as far as me being an "anti-resonance shill" goes or "someone is paying me" goes, that has nothing to do with me and says a lot about you.  It feels like we are on our way towards another "fail" doesn't it?  You yourself brought up the question about the ignition circuit and the capacitor to me, and as of yet we have no data from you, just some "show and don't tell" observational clips.  You claim that you are going to show some real data on Sunday, and all that I can say is bring it on.  After all, it would be a miracle if an experiment could be performed and come to a successful conclusion with everybody understanding what is taking place and everybody being on the same page.

Here is the thing with you..  You bash anyone who talks of resonance. First you say hey magzy resonance wont help you, but here you deny the existence of it. No matter what your stance is there is no possible way for the primary and cap to oscillate. It is an LRC because of the other things in the loop when the contacts open. Look up LRC resonance and tell me you can find no reference to that. ???   Pic below

Shall I copy paste all the times you have said that there is no resonance in this circuit?

And your first post your description is devoid of any inductance action other than transformer action

And the cap only ever charges to 12v if the battery voltage is 12.

And are strongly expressing only dc exists in the circuit as a whole with the exception of some artifacts in the secondary

Anything to avoid the possibility of the lcr resonance that is easily found all over the internet.  So your expert circuit analysis is lacking dont you think?


Has me thinking that why dont you just say that oscillation gives you nothing? Thats what you have always said before. So why the complete denial that it does exist here and nowhere have you done that before?  So I have to think you really need to shill this one out harder as this circuit must  have some things going on that it needs to be killed lol.  Sorry but...  So you just keep denying the possibility of the oscillation of the cap and primary, of which is described as the resonant freq of the LRC in the searches below in the pic. So now those are not correct and an LRC doesnt ring? Or this circuit is not an lrc ? 

I just needed to say this hard right now. I cannot have you perpetuating the idea that it cant, it wont, it doesnt ring just like a bell. If you know what you say you know, then you should know better. So this hard hitting, constant, resonance is nothing and saying it doesnt even exist in the circuit here, yeah has me thinkin shill jim. You say there are no shills here.  look up  Monsanto shill  And see the result of the search.  And its real.  So in the energy industry is it so hard to believe that there may be some here?  Monsanto doesnt want people to believe their products are harmful to us.  So is it so hard to believe that the energy industry wouldnt want people to know of free energy?  Ah just because it is impossible to begin with right?  Thats what they said about many things starting 200 years ago up until now.

mags
'
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on October 29, 2017, 05:03:29 AM
"Not sure if your having a bad day,or have had to much whacky weed Mag's,but i have not approved or removed any ones posts in this thread--i have done nothing but read,and make the comments i made--thats it"

No wacky weed.  But I just looked at the moderation log and Stefan approved them apparently. Didnt know I could see who 'else' did.  I bases it on your posting just a couple hours after they we approved. So sorry on that. ;) It wasnt me, I only approved the posts before that. Wasnt grum as he and i have be conversing lately. Also didnt know us 3 were not the only ones to moderate here.

"First up--!some! ignition systems use a ballast resistor--every seen one on a motorcycle that has points ignition?. Most high performance points ignition systems have no ballast resistor,nor do a lot of coils require a ballast resistor.



Second--a resistor reduces current flow-not voltage.
The voltage will appear across the coil,regardless of the resistor or not.
The ballast resistor is to reduce the time constant(the rate at which current rises in the coil)--the larger the series resistance,the shorter the time constant.
This allows your ignition coil to operate at a higher frequency--higher RPM."

 When the points are open there is no voltage across the coil with just the ign sw on. Only the cap has 12v.  just using 12v here. 14.4 would be 7.2v each. Dealt with this with one of the guys at my previous work as they didnt understand why there wasnt anything near 12 on the col primary and was searching for why. So I showed him why with the meter just like I said it above.

"I think you missed the whole question Mags,which was--why do you think the engine runs rough and back fires when there is no condenser ?
I basically answered this for you,and you missed it."

Well if the plug is firing sometimes and a weak spark even if it does spark every time without the cap, there will not always be a burn in the cycle and the cyl can get a little loaded with fuel, more than would be in a single cycle. This can cause backfire just like a bad plug, wire, whichever. Out of time can definitely cause backfire but it is more typical with retard. Just like a too rich mixture can cause backfire the same can happen when a cyl doesnt get a burn for a cycle or more due to a weak spark.  Like what you are saying is the advanced spark time that you speak of is way off of when it should spark. You talkin intake valve open right? For the the flames to come out of the carb that is way off timing. When it is suppose to spark is just before complete compression. You are sayin that the closure of the points for the spark you are talking about would be somewhere between intake valve just opening and when it closes just before compression begins. Id say that is not a point where the distributor rotor is even close enough to the particular plug wire terminal for the very weak spark to even jump let alone with the series opening of the plug gap.
Look up  What causes backfire and too rich will come up every time. If a cyl is not firing well and periodic burs, then the too rich deal would occur when it does happen to get a decent spark.  I did a search just now and see nothing that you describe in your post,  I had to do the search just to add to my argument that there cannot be a spark by way of when the switch closes, even if you have 20v in. Try it.  The will only be a spark when the switch opens due to the field collapse.

And you show me a source link that covers just what you say is happening here? One that say there can be a spark when the points close if the condenser is removed?
If you can I will cut my toe off. Only if they can explain how the shorted cap when the switch is closed prevents this mystery spark. ;)

I dont buy it. Gotta show something other than just your opinion on that, of which it just may be an opinion and you are not stating it as a fact. Thats fine either way, but if you claim it is fact, does anyone else out there on the net agree with that?

The cyl is rich due to intermittent burns because of intermittent weak sparks because the cap is not there to help with making the spark stronger, thus back firings occur. Thats my story


here is the big issue. How does the cap affect this premature when the switch closes spark you speak of?   Ok so you say there is this spark that happens when the points switch closes, right Well how would having the cap across the points switch help to prevent that sark you claim happens?  At this point if the spark you say can occur when the switch closes, the cap is now shorted when the switch closes. What is the caps function, while it is shorted across the closed switch that prevents this spark you are claiming happens when the switch closes??



Here is the question at the end of your post  "What roll dose the condenser play here in this one example?."  Well the answer is it plays no roll. it is dead shorted at the time of the switch closure... So is that a correct answer to that last question?  Because if it is, then the whole, spark when the switch closes when the cap is removed form the circuit, is all a farce. Because with the cap or without the cap this spark should occur and give you the same backfires with or without the cap!! Get it?

Right there shows it is definitely not as you say.   ;)   Can you agree that there is not this 'when points closed spark' whether the cap is there or not???

I mean you did say  "We all know that if we remove the condenser ,we get very erratic engine......"  Well? ???    If you agree that the spark you speak of does not occur period now, then why did you make it all up as if it is the way it is brad? ???

Mags

Quote
The ballast resistor is commonly 1ohm like the primary. With it in series with the coil during closed points time, the amount of current flowing is only as much as the total resistance. It becomes a voltage divider. 12v becomes 6v across each. Simple I=v/r


No Mag's,it's not as simple as I=v/r as we have inductance.

After all this time,you should know that a voltage appears across an inductor before current starts to flow.

The ballast resisters job is to decrease the L/R time constant,and this allows for a higher operating frequency--as in RPM in this case.

The secondaries voltage will increase with an increase in rate of change of the magnetic field--Yes?.

It would be far better to set up a test bed,and shoot a video for you.

I am glad you found that it was not i that approved any posts from MH.
I am glad you now know that the average operating voltage of a vehicles electrical system is around 14.4 volts.
I can only hope that you also do some research on the ballast resistors operation as well.


Brad


Brad
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 29, 2017, 06:07:39 AM


No Mag's,it's not as simple as I=v/r as we have inductance.

After all this time,you should know that a voltage appears across an inductor before current starts to flow.

The ballast resisters job is to decrease the L/R time constant,and this allows for a higher operating frequency--as in RPM in this case.

The secondaries voltage will increase with an increase in rate of change of the magnetic field--Yes?.

It would be far better to set up a test bed,and shoot a video for you.

I am glad you found that it was not i that approved any posts from MH.
I am glad you now know that the average operating voltage of a vehicles electrical system is around 14.4 volts.
I can only hope that you also do some research on the ballast resistors operation as well.


Brad


Brad

Right? When the switch closes 12v appears across the primary. And no current has flowed yet.  ;) So even if it were 15v, you cant use that value in the calculation of what happens on the secondary till current flows!  So as the field builds the current rises and the voltage across the primary decreases and the resistor voltage increases.  So if there is a spark when the switch closes, at what point during the field build, voltage going lower and current rising time, does the primary shmack the secondary enough to calculate to get 1500v at any point in time that the switch is closed? When the 2 resistances end at 7.5v each at max field build?  The resistance voltage divider comes into play along the way and you wont get the voltage and current calculations for the 15v to induce the secondary as you say like a transformer..   

lol put a resistor in series with the primary of a typical 12v transformer and plug it into a wall brad,, Now scope the primary.  If the primary is say 500ohms and the series resistor is 500ohms, what voltage would you see across the transformer vs the line current at the wall outlet?   That transformers output will be half of what it is suppose to be when without the resistor...... So your calculations would be invalid....

Now would the absence of the ballast resistor be just that, what you say a current limiter to not get the spark that you speak of? if the resistor is taken out of the loop, would there be the contacts closed spark? Maybe the ballast resistors function is just for that purpose to avoid the switch on spark?

Well what kind of a spark would be output by the secondary if the primary were ringing at high freq with 250v swings compared to 15v direct connect? Id say the 15 only spark will be pretty close to nothing that could possibly cross the distributor gaps and the spark plug gaps in series.

Mags


Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on October 29, 2017, 10:48:41 AM
Here is the thing with you..  You bash anyone who talks of resonance. First you say hey magzy resonance wont help you, but here you deny the existence of it. No matter what your stance is there is no possible way for the primary and cap to oscillate. It is an LRC because of the other things in the loop when the contacts open. Look up LRC resonance and tell me you can find no reference to that. ???   Pic below

Shall I copy paste all the times you have said that there is no resonance in this circuit?

And your first post your description is devoid of any inductance action other than transformer action

And the cap only ever charges to 12v if the battery voltage is 12.

And are strongly expressing only dc exists in the circuit as a whole with the exception of some artifacts in the secondary

Anything to avoid the possibility of the lcr resonance that is easily found all over the internet.  So your expert circuit analysis is lacking dont you think?


Has me thinking that why dont you just say that oscillation gives you nothing? Thats what you have always said before. So why the complete denial that it does exist here and nowhere have you done that before?  So I have to think you really need to shill this one out harder as this circuit must  have some things going on that it needs to be killed lol.  Sorry but...  So you just keep denying the possibility of the oscillation of the cap and primary, of which is described as the resonant freq of the LRC in the searches below in the pic. So now those are not correct and an LRC doesnt ring? Or this circuit is not an lrc ? 

I just needed to say this hard right now. I cannot have you perpetuating the idea that it cant, it wont, it doesnt ring just like a bell. If you know what you say you know, then you should know better. So this hard hitting, constant, resonance is nothing and saying it doesnt even exist in the circuit here, yeah has me thinkin shill jim. You say there are no shills here.  look up  Monsanto shill  And see the result of the search.  And its real.  So in the energy industry is it so hard to believe that there may be some here?  Monsanto doesnt want people to believe their products are harmful to us.  So is it so hard to believe that the energy industry wouldnt want people to know of free energy?  Ah just because it is impossible to begin with right?  Thats what they said about many things starting 200 years ago up until now.

mags
'

But you are ignoring what the ignition circuit is actually doing.  From an earlier post:

<<< When inductors discharge into resistive loads, they don't resonate.  The plasma is a non-linear resistor, therefore there is no resonance.  And I know that when an inductor discharges into a plasma, essentially all of the energy stored in the inductor is drained away in one shot.  And that is fundamentally what the ignition of a spark plug is, and that's why I said there was no resonance.  >>>

It doesn't matter if there is LCR resonance all over the Internet.  It's fundamentally a "Bedini circuit" although putting it like that makes me cringe.  For something like the thousandth time:  You energize an inductor.  The you open the switch and we know that the inductor is a current source and come hell or high water the inductor is going to push out current and nothing can stop it.  If the inductor encounters a capacitor in its path it will push current into the capacitor until it is drained of energy and then the capacitor will output voltage and push back into the inductor and you get resonance.  If the inductor encounters a resistor of any value, it will push current into the resistor until it is drained of energy - NO RESONANCE.  If the resistor is air, then it will push current through the air and turn the air into plasma because nothing can stop the inductor from pushing current, and the inductor will push current through the air until it is drained of energy - NO RESONANCE.

So what is the bare-bones version of what is happening in the ignition circuit?  It's simple, the secondary inductor pushes current through the air and tuns it into plasma and and it stops pushing current through the air plasma when it is drained of energy - NO RESONANCE.

What is the more detailed version of what is happening in the ignition circuit?  The inductor has two heads like a hydra, the primary inductor and the secondary inductor.  The current flow rate for the primary inductor is higher than the current flow rate for the secondary inductor.  As long as the primary or the secondary is meeting its assigned current flow rate everything is fine - if there is no place for the current to flow from the primary or the secondary the inductor will have a freak-out and generate millions of volts if required to break down anything in its path.   When the switch opens, there is a place for current to flow via the primary, and current flows into the capacitor.  So the primary pushes current into the capacitor until the capacitor is charged to say 300 volts.  At this point the capacitor is pushing back hard on the primary and perhaps 90% of the energy is still stored in the ignition coil core.  The current flow is always looking for the path of least resistance and at this point the secondary takes over and pushes current through the air turning it into plasma.  When this happens the current flow in the primary stops.  Once the secondary is pushing current through the plasma, it drains off the remaining 90% of the energy in the core until it is down to zero.  The whole time the secondary was pushing current through the air plasma, the primary and the charged capacitor were locked in a stalemate pushing battle and no current was flowing.  Now that the core is drained of energy, the primary loses its source of pushing power and finally the capacitor pushes back and wins, and the current flow finally changes direction and you have a resonant ring-down that is damped by the battery.  This resonant ring-down between the primary and the capacitor does not have enough juice to reignite the air on the secondary and turn it back into plasma.

Now, the above is what is happening based on what I learned after getting up to speed after I wrote up my original spec which was clearly wrong.  If you want to argue that resonance is giving you a gain or is the principle mechanism for giving you a bigger plasma spark on the secondary then you have to make a valid and credible case for that.  Just having LCR resonance fantasies because you see a capacitor and an inductor connected to each other on a schematic is not going to cut it.

And on top of that, if you disagree with the more detailed version of what is happening in the ignition circuit as stated above, then make your case again.  Just ignoring it is not going to get you any Brownie Points.  I think what I state above is 100% credible, and it's not going to just go away.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: webby1 on October 29, 2017, 11:01:19 AM
Found this for those that do not know the wave forms.
https://www.slideshare.net/kimmimaru/waveform-ignition
Funny thing about that link,, Keshe is also on that page,,


Funny stuff about voltage run levels,, if my Mini Cooper goes above 14.2 it sets an error,, below 13 and it won't run,, then my old Chevy truck would often hit 14.7 without an issue,, it could go higher if I ran it full field and at high RPM.


Anyway,,  if you look at the waveforms you will notice that there is a much higher firing line voltage than the burn line voltage,,
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on October 29, 2017, 11:16:00 AM
This posting is the revenge of the battery and the big spark V2.0.

In my original write up I thought that during the plasma burn the battery was putting power into the plasma via the coil acting like a step-up transformer and I was wrong.  Clearly, while the capacitor is being charged up by the primary there is no burn until the "breaking point" when the secondary takes over and ignites the plasma and the core dumps its energy into the plasma via the secondary.  It's impossible for the battery to be contributing to the burn under these conditions because current has stopped flowing counter-clockwise through the loop.

Here is where the battery gets its revenge because it can still put extra energy into the core _after_ the switch opens and _before_ the plasma burn starts.`  Note however this assumes that the primary has been energized for considerably less than 5 L/R time constants and there is still room to increase the current flow in the primary.  So this may be helping give you a more energetic spark in a running engine, but not on a bench test where you are doing the switching by hand.  (This makes me think more and more that the reason you get the more energetic spark with the capacitor is because it protects the contact points from arcing and a lot of energy is lost when there is arcing across the contact points.)

Just look at the attached images.  The bottom image shows the ignition coil circuit.  Look at the battery, it is in the loop ready to push.  What happens when the switch first opens?  The capacitor acts like a short circuit.  If there is still available headroom in the core to store energy, then the battery may indeed contribute to the more robust spark by adding some extra energy to the core for a fraction of a millisecond.  This just illustrates one more time how important it is to construct a timing diagram if you really want to understand what is going on.

In the attached simulation I simply played with component values to demonstrate the principle.

Simulator web page:  http://www.falstad.com/circuit/circuitjs.html (http://www.falstad.com/circuit/circuitjs.html)
Sim URL:  http://tinyurl.com/ybtbekk6 (http://tinyurl.com/ybtbekk6)
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 29, 2017, 08:55:15 PM
Found this for those that do not know the wave forms.
https://www.slideshare.net/kimmimaru/waveform-ignition (https://www.slideshare.net/kimmimaru/waveform-ignition)
Funny thing about that link,, Keshe is also on that page,,


Funny stuff about voltage run levels,, if my Mini Cooper goes above 14.2 it sets an error,, below 13 and it won't run,, then my old Chevy truck would often hit 14.7 without an issue,, it could go higher if I ran it full field and at high RPM.


Anyway,,  if you look at the waveforms you will notice that there is a much higher firing line voltage than the burn line voltage,,

Hey webby

Thanks for the scope shot thread.   Its interesting to see what others show..    Look at all the shots and then look just at the ones that make claims of what you would see if the condenser has issues.

Do you see any evidence of resonance in any of the scope shots as compared to the specific shots that claim condenser issues? Any resonance at all?

Tuned up the relay timing with the cap to get more switch open time by adding a smaller 44ohm resistor to the power in to the 160ohm relay coil. This way it takes a little time for the cap to charge up enough to to give me more contacts open time.

Adding the ballast resistor changed things a bit. It gave me something I said I have never seen before.. It is 8 8ohm resistors in parallel and measures very close to 1 ohm exactly. And thinking about the circuit a bit more has me really wondering about something with these circuits..A very perplexing issue indeed. Some thing that sort of blows my mind really. 


Will be doing the vid here after I get some eats.  It will partially vindicate brads claim thus far, but I still have 1 question and will demonstrate in the vid.


Be back in a little while...

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 29, 2017, 09:30:22 PM
This posting is the revenge of the battery and the big spark V2.0.

In my original write up I thought that during the plasma burn the battery was putting power into the plasma via the coil acting like a step-up transformer and I was wrong.  Clearly, while the capacitor is being charged up by the primary there is no burn until the "breaking point" when the secondary takes over and ignites the plasma and the core dumps its energy into the plasma via the secondary.  It's impossible for the battery to be contributing to the burn under these conditions because current has stopped flowing counter-clockwise through the loop.

Here is where the battery gets its revenge because it can still put extra energy into the core _after_ the switch opens and _before_ the plasma burn starts.`  Note however this assumes that the primary has been energized for considerably less than 5 L/R time constants and there is still room to increase the current flow in the primary.  So this may be helping give you a more energetic spark in a running engine, but not on a bench test where you are doing the switching by hand.  (This makes me think more and more that the reason you get the more energetic spark with the capacitor is because it protects the contact points from arcing and a lot of energy is lost when there is arcing across the contact points.)

Just look at the attached images.  The bottom image shows the ignition coil circuit.  Look at the battery, it is in the loop ready to push.  What happens when the switch first opens?  The capacitor acts like a short circuit.  If there is still available headroom in the core to store energy, then the battery may indeed contribute to the more robust spark by adding some extra energy to the core for a fraction of a millisecond.  This just illustrates one more time how important it is to construct a timing diagram if you really want to understand what is going on.

In the attached simulation I simply played with component values to demonstrate the principle.

Simulator web page:  http://www.falstad.com/circuit/circuitjs.html (http://www.falstad.com/circuit/circuitjs.html)
Sim URL:  http://tinyurl.com/ybtbekk6 (http://tinyurl.com/ybtbekk6)

let me ask you something M..  Why the drastic changes in component values in your circuit sim screen shot?   I remade you circuit with your specs and I also redid it to the right with the actual component values we are specifically looking at in this thread.

Yours is once more, as I have complained to you before, that you are using padded parts values and you stopped the sim to not show the resonant ring when the switch opens.  ;)

Mags
Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Grumage on October 29, 2017, 09:45:55 PM
Hi Guys.

Before I went into the EE world I did my first year of Motor Vehicle Technology, CGLI. This was 40+ years ago, before all this electronic wizardry took control.

The " Condenser " was described as a device to rapidly discharge the primary on the opening of the points. This made for an improved HT spark. Also reduced arcing/pitting.

The "Ballast resistor " was fitted to some vehicles to aid cold starting. They used an ignition coil with an operating voltage of between 6 and 9 volts with the resistor in series to the supply. On initial start up the coil was hit with a full battery voltage making a really big spark but after a few seconds the ballast would heat up, increasing in resistance and lowering the voltage applied to the primary winding.

That's what I remember from my college days, I actually prefer Magneto's, but that's another story.   :) 

Cheers Grum.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 29, 2017, 10:11:50 PM
Here is the code for Circuit Sim for the pic I have shown above, in case anyone wants to see it work for themselves

$ 1 5.0E-6 10.20027730826997 50 5.0 43
r 112 288 288 288 0 0.1
c 288 288 288 496 0 3.0E-4 -157.40087982799082
l 112 496 288 496 0 0.5 -7.8234695716679
v 112 288 112 496 0 0 40.0 100.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
w 288 496 368 496 0
s 288 288 368 288 0 1 false
w 368 496 368 288 0
w 928 496 928 288 0
s 848 288 928 288 0 1 false
w 848 496 928 496 0
v 672 288 672 496 0 0 40.0 12.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
l 672 496 848 496 0 0.0057 0.001198957437496913
c 848 288 848 496 0 1.0E-7 -12.102049132159332
r 672 288 848 288 0 1.0
o 3 128 0 291 160.0 12.8 0 -1
o 0 128 0 35 1.25 12.8 0 -1
o 10 64 0 35 20.0 12.8 1 -1
o 13 64 0 35 20.0 12.8 1 -1


Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 29, 2017, 10:13:07 PM
Hi Guys.

Before I went into the EE world I did my first year of Motor Vehicle Technology, CGLI. This was 40+ years ago, before all this electronic wizardry took control.

The " Condenser " was described as a device to rapidly discharge the primary on the opening of the points. This made for an improved HT spark. Also reduced arcing/pitting.

The "Ballast resistor " was fitted to some vehicles to aid cold starting. They used an ignition coil with an operating voltage of between 6 and 9 volts with the resistor in series to the supply. On initial start up the coil was hit with a full battery voltage making a really big spark but after a few seconds the ballast would heat up, increasing in resistance and lowering the voltage applied to the primary winding.

That's what I remember from my college days, I actually prefer Magneto's, but that's another story.   :) 

Cheers Grum.

Hey Grum

Puttin up the vid soon here.  Ill explain more in the vid.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 29, 2017, 10:49:48 PM
But you are ignoring what the ignition circuit is actually doing.  From an earlier post:

<<< When inductors discharge into resistive loads, they don't resonate.  The plasma is a non-linear resistor, therefore there is no resonance.  And I know that when an inductor discharges into a plasma, essentially all of the energy stored in the inductor is drained away in one shot.  And that is fundamentally what the ignition of a spark plug is, and that's why I said there was no resonance.  >>>



"When inductors discharge into resistive loads, they don't resonate."

Well we will see in a bit.  I added a 1ohm ballast resistor in serires with the primary.


"The plasma is a non-linear resistor, therefore there is no resonance. "

Never said there was resonance operation in the secondary. I mean, is the plasma you are speaking of is in the spark from the secondary?  ;) The resonance is in the primary with the cap in the loop when the switch opens. I have stated this repeatedly. The secondary is induced buy the oscillating primary and the secondary spark shows the effect of that.

Mags


Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 29, 2017, 11:03:59 PM

It doesn't matter if there is LCR resonance all over the Internet.  It's fundamentally a "Bedini circuit" although putting it like that makes me cringe.  For something like the thousandth time:  You energize an inductor.  The you open the switch and we know that the inductor is a current source and come hell or high water the inductor is going to push out current and nothing can stop it.  If the inductor encounters a capacitor in its path it will push current into the capacitor until it is drained of energy and then the capacitor will output voltage and push back into the inductor and you get resonance.  If the inductor encounters a resistor of any value, it will push current into the resistor until it is drained of energy - NO RESONANCE.  If the resistor is air, then it will push current through the air and turn the air into plasma because nothing can stop the inductor from pushing current, and the inductor will push current through the air until it is drained of energy - NO RESONANCE.





That second sentence is an example of why you are banned from OUR.

ok then. If you say so.  Ive added the ballast resistor now, and lets see how well it kills off any resonance....

Ya know, you have been saying that there is no resonance for how many pages now?  Now once we bring up the ballast resistor in place, and after I say read some of the many LCR resonance links, now it is the resistor that kills the resonance that you claim wasnt there in the first place. Even with all the info on resonant LCR, you say that its all wrong because of the R in the LCR.  I dont get it.  But I get what your trying to do by saying so. ;)   Its like a movie that could be titled 'Resonance Must Die'.



Mags

Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 29, 2017, 11:34:21 PM
let me ask you something M..  Why the drastic changes in component values in your circuit sim screen shot?   I remade you circuit with your specs and I also redid it to the right with the actual component values we are specifically looking at in this thread.

Yours is once more as I have complained to you before that you are using padded parts values and you stopped the sim to not show the resonant ring when the switch opens.  ;)

Mags
Mags

Here is another shot of what I posted on the last page as an update. I had seen that the time scale for the scope shots to the left and right circuits were off. So here is the pic with a longer view of the operation also.. Notice there is resonant oscillations in his padded version and my version with the correct parts values.

Why do I say you padded it? Because you want to demonstrate something, but dont want to show any resonance. By drastically changing the parts values, you are able to show a very short view in time of when the switch is closed, and some of when the switch is open.  So in my pic I lengthened the time period of operation to show that your padded version does resonate. But if you had the correct values in there, it is very hard to show a scope shot of before the switch opens and any of when the switch opens, as there would be this big oscillation that you insist does not exist, just like you see in my correct circuit to the right

The 2 scope shots on the top for each circuit is the battery, His 100v and mine 12v.  The lower shot for each is the coil, just as IM going to show in my vid.

Mh you can say that you dont pad your demo circuits to a point of not seeing what we say should be seen, but here, after I have made the claim of you padding many times before, this is 1 very perfect example. 

The real coil is about 5mh  and you chose a 500mh
The real cap is .14uf   and yours is 300uf

I dont know why you made it 100v. Nor why you made the resistor .1ohm  But the L and C are so huge, and the scope shots you show are cut off before any resonant indications could appear.........  Look at his post again folks..   There is no other reason for making such drastic changes to the component values to demonstrate operations of this circuit. None.... Its padded to the hilt to not show resonant oscillations.


I put up the code for it if anyone wants to run it on circuit sim and see if I had padded my results for the pics Ive shown..   Ive found that sometimes the saved code may or may not have the time scales correct for the scope shots. And they may come up as unstacked as I show.. Just right click on the scope shots for a menu to fix that if the issue occurs when you try the code for the setup.

To get the same results I show, click stop circuit at the upper right. Then close the switches. Hit reset at the upper right.  Let the current in the right hand circuit reach max yellow trace current, then hit stop again. Open the switches and hit stop once more to let the circuit continue, as both circuits will be opened at the exact same time when you continue the operation. Then hit stop before the beginning of the trace gets the the far right of the shot. 

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on October 30, 2017, 12:17:55 AM
The resonance is in the primary with the cap in the loop when the switch opens. I have stated this repeatedly. The secondary is induced buy the oscillating primary and the secondary spark shows the effect of that.

When it comes to an ignition circuit and what it actually does - produce a spark across a spark plug gap, it's all about the secondary and the primary is just a minor side-show.  You have to keep your eye on the ball.

The secondary is not induced by the oscillating primary.  Once the secondary is finished doing the plasma burn which I suspect represents more than 90% of the energy put into the core in the first place, only then does the primary oscillate with the capacitor, and this has nothing to do with the plasma generation.  It's just a harmless artifact of why the capacitor was put there in the first place - to protect the points.

Repeat:  The capacitor is there to protect the points, it was not put there to create a resonance with the primary to give you a more robust spark.  As I said a few times already, it looks like the main reason for the more robust spark is the capacitor prevents the arcing of the points which represents a considerable loss of energy.  I also said there is a simple test that can be done to check for this.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 30, 2017, 12:50:25 AM
When it comes to an ignition circuit and what it actually does - produce a spark across a spark plug gap, it's all about the secondary and the primary is just a minor side-show.  You have to keep your eye on the ball.

The secondary is not induced by the oscillating primary.  Once the secondary is finished doing the plasma burn which I suspect represents more than 90% of the energy put into the core in the first place, only then does the primary oscillate with the capacitor, and this has nothing to do with the plasma generation.  It's just a harmless artifact of why the capacitor was put there in the first place - to protect the points.

Repeat:  The capacitor is there to protect the points, it was not put there to create a resonance with the primary to give you a more robust spark.  As I said a few times already, it looks like the main reason for the more robust spark is the capacitor prevents the arcing of the points which represents a considerable loss of energy.  I also said there is a simple test that can be done to check for this.

Just pulled the camera battery out of the charger.  Vid will be up in a bit. Just like I said, Im doing the vid today, sunday.....

Repeat this, repeat that, all you want. Ill be waiting for your reasons why the oscillations I show when the cap is in the circuit compared to not in the circuit are just artifacts or nothing to make a better stronger spark. And that will have to be the new argument you will have to make...

Remember folks, MH has insisted that there cannot be an LC, or and LCR ring in this circuit ever since before this thread started. The discussion was started in pm then came here. So lets see him explain what i show across the primary in my vid coming up here soon. 

Mags

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on October 30, 2017, 01:23:35 AM
I dont know why you made it 100v. Nor why you made the resistor .1ohm  But the L and C are so huge, and the scope shots you show are cut off before any resonant indications could appear.........  Look at his post again folks..   There is no other reason for making such drastic changes to the component values to demonstrate operations of this circuit. None.... Its padded to the hilt to not show resonant oscillations.

You know that you are being a space cadet here and also demonstrating your lack of knowledge.  Did you try changing the time base on the virtual scope and you couldn't?  I tried and I couldn't change the time base.  So when you plug in the more correct values all that you see is the envelope of the ring-down, right?  It's too fast for you to see anything.

When it comes to analog components like capacitors and inductors, the waveforms they generate are all the same irrespective of the size of the components, it's the frequency that changes.  So since the frequency was too high to demonstrate what I was trying to demonstrate, I made the component values larger so that I could show what I wanted to show, and I am attaching the marked-up screen capture to this positing.  I even put in a disclaimer about it in the original posting for people like you.

When you allege that I was trying to "hide" the resonant oscillations, we enter into black comedy territory, and it's one of the reasons I left this forum.  I will state it for something like the fifth time:  At the start of the ignition cycle, there is no resonant oscillation.  When the capacitor hits 300 volts on the very first climb of what is supposed to be a resonant oscillation, the secondary hits 30,000 volts and the air finally becomes conducting plasma because the very strong electric field starts stripping the electrons off of the various air molecules.  The dam bursts and the resonance between the primary and the capacitor is put into limbo while the secondary does the big energy dump.  The resonance only resumes after the big energy dump is done and that is just scraps in the form of a resonant ring-down to dissipate the remaining energy in the cap as heat.

So I wasn't trying to "hide" the RLC resonance, I was discussing how it's possible for the battery to still kick in a bit of extra energy into the core before the plasma ignites in a running engine.

For the attached graphic I even added an extra annotation to show a hypothetical point where the big plasma burn starts and stops any possible RLC resonance between the primary and the capacitor.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 30, 2017, 02:04:39 AM
You know that you are being a space cadet here and also demonstrating your lack of knowledge.  Did you try changing the time base on the virtual scope and you couldn't?  I tried and I couldn't change the time base.  So when you plug in the more correct values all that you see is the envelope of the ring-down, right?  It's too fast for you to see anything. 

When it comes to analog components like capacitors and inductors, the waveforms they generate are all the same irrespective of the size of the components, it's the frequency that changes.  So since the frequency was too high to demonstrate what I was trying to demonstrate, I made the component values larger so that I could show what I wanted to show, and I am attaching the marked-up screen capture to this positing.  I even put in a disclaimer about it in the original posting for people like you.

When you allege that I was trying to "hide" the resonant oscillations, we enter into black comedy territory, and it's one of the reasons I left this forum.  I will state it for something like the fifth time:  At the start of the ignition cycle, there is no resonant oscillation.  When the capacitor hits 300 volts on the very first climb of what is supposed to be a resonant oscillation, the secondary hits 30,000 volts and the air finally becomes conducting plasma because the very strong electric field starts stripping the electrons off of the various air molecules.  The dam bursts and the resonance between the primary and the capacitor is put into limbo while the secondary does the big energy dump.  The resonance only resumes after the big energy dump is done and that is just scraps in the form of a resonant ring-down to dissipate the remaining energy in the cap as heat.

So I wasn't trying to "hide" the RLC resonance, I was discussing how it's possible for the battery to still kick in a bit of extra energy into the core before the plasma ignites in a running engine.

For the attached graphic I even added an extra annotation to show a hypothetical point where the big plasma burn starts and stops any possible RLC resonance between the primary and the capacitor.

No space cadet.  Right click the scope shot you want to change and at the top of that menu it says  Speed 2x  and below that  SPEED 1/2... You can change things in options also.


"When you allege that I was trying to "hide" the resonant oscillations, we enter into black comedy territory, and it's one of the reasons I left this forum.  I will state it for something like the fifth time:  At the start of the ignition cycle, there is no resonant oscillation.  When the capacitor hits 300 volts on the very first climb of what is supposed to be a resonant oscillation, the secondary hits 30,000 volts and the air finally becomes conducting plasma because the very strong electric field starts stripping the electrons off of the various air molecules.  The dam bursts and the resonance between the primary and the capacitor is put into limbo while the secondary does the big energy dump.  The resonance only resumes after the big energy dump is done and that is just scraps in the form of a resonant ring-down to dissipate the remaining energy in the cap as heat."

But MH!! You have been saying there is no resonance at all up untill today.  ??? Its all right here in the thread.  So where did you find a source that shows you that it does exist and you finally believed it now, today??   

See. I just said in a post just a bit ago that once you finally cannot dispute that the resonance, that you have been so dead set on over these pages, does not and will not happen here, that you would do just this. Here in my post reply 95 on the page before this one .......

"Repeat this, repeat that, all you want. Ill be waiting for your reasons why the oscillations I show when the cap is in the circuit compared to not in the circuit are just artifacts or nothing to make a better stronger spark. And that will have to be the new argument you will have to make... "


And here you are already before I even post the vid.  lol  your doing just what I said 1 page ago. Gees, when does it end?  Never I suppose.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 30, 2017, 02:21:18 AM
Vid was past 13min as i was recording and it stopped on its own..  Doing another one right now, but Ill have to shorter vids.  Not sure why the cam is doing this.  So ill post the simple version of what we want to see and explain the rest in other short vids....

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on October 30, 2017, 02:32:06 AM
No space cadet.  Right click the scope shot you want to change and at the top of that menu it says  Speed 2x  and below that  SPEED 1/2... You can change things in options also.


"When you allege that I was trying to "hide" the resonant oscillations, we enter into black comedy territory, and it's one of the reasons I left this forum.  I will state it for something like the fifth time:  At the start of the ignition cycle, there is no resonant oscillation.  When the capacitor hits 300 volts on the very first climb of what is supposed to be a resonant oscillation, the secondary hits 30,000 volts and the air finally becomes conducting plasma because the very strong electric field starts stripping the electrons off of the various air molecules.  The dam bursts and the resonance between the primary and the capacitor is put into limbo while the secondary does the big energy dump.  The resonance only resumes after the big energy dump is done and that is just scraps in the form of a resonant ring-down to dissipate the remaining energy in the cap as heat."

But MH!! You have been saying there is no resonance at all up untill today.  ??? Its all right here in the thread.  So where did you find a source that shows you that it does exist and you finally believed it now, today??   

See. I just said in a post just a bit ago that once you finally cannot dispute that the resonance, that you have been so dead set on over these pages, does not and will not happen here, that you would do just this. Here in my post reply 95 on the page before this one .......

"Repeat this, repeat that, all you want. Ill be waiting for your reasons why the oscillations I show when the cap is in the circuit compared to not in the circuit are just artifacts or nothing to make a better stronger spark. And that will have to be the new argument you will have to make... "


And here you are already before I even post the vid.  lol  your doing just what I said 1 page ago. Gees, when does it end?  Never I suppose.

Mags

Even in my mistaken first attempt to describe the process, I said this, "There may be some secondary voltage ringing artifacts observed, but these will have nothing to do with the actual plasma burn."

And that is exactly what we are talking about right now.  There is no "resonance" involved in the generation of the plasma spark.

So you have got nothing Magluvin.  Your pitch from the start is that the whole plasma generation is a resonance-based phenomenon.  And you state that resonance gives you a "gain" and a stronger spark.  Well that is not what appears to be happening at all.

You have been playing with coils on your bench for a decade.  And every time you disconnect a coil from battery terminals you get a spark.  It's the same bloody spark in an ignition system.  And it was only many years later that you learned that a discharging coil is a current source and that explains why you get the spark and it explains why the coil completely discharges its stored energy when you break the connection to the coil.  It baffles me that you could not make a connection between what you have seen on your bench thousands of times to what is going on when an ignition coil fires a spark plug.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 30, 2017, 03:07:36 AM
Even in my mistaken first attempt to describe the process, I said this, "There may be some secondary voltage ringing artifacts observed, but these will have nothing to do with the actual plasma burn."

And that is exactly what we are talking about right now.  There is no "resonance" involved in the generation of the plasma spark.

So you have got nothing Magluvin.  Your pitch from the start is that the whole plasma generation is a resonance-based phenomenon.  And you state that resonance gives you a "gain" and a stronger spark.  Well that is not what appears to be happening at all.

You have been playing with coils on your bench for a decade.  And every time you disconnect a coil from battery terminals you get a spark.  It's the same bloody spark in an ignition system.  And it was only many years later that you learned that a discharging coil is a current source and that explains why you get the spark and it explains why the coil completely discharges its stored energy when you break the connection to the coil.  It baffles me that you could not make a connection between what you have seen on your bench thousands of times to what is going on when an ignition coil fires a spark plug.

""There may be some secondary voltage ringing artifacts observed, but these will have nothing to do with the actual plasma burn."

But throughout that first post here from you on the second page, you strictly describe that there is no resonant ring in the primary or cap. everything only DC. Never any reversals of current on the primary side of the circuit. If the plasma resistor spark you speak of would kill off any oscillations, then how could there be any artifacts in the secondary let alone cant happen on the primary?  Your swing has changed since Tk posted earlier in pm that the lrc no matter how much over damping by the R in the LRC there is, LRC resonance still takes place.  Here we have 1ohm primary and 1ohm ballast.  This is not an over damped LRC.  So now all of a sudden just today after that pm from TK you change your tune about the possibility that the primary will ring with the cap when the switch opens.

So now today we are on the same page finally that the resonance I speak of really does occur, even before I post the vid, but now you have a new reason for why the secondary never sees it from the primary that sits in the same can, thus to invalidate my scope shots in the vid before it even comes out ::) ???   You were not even close to being right in your first explanation, so why should we accept your new explanation?  Maybe it is just as fouled up as the first one. How can we know for sure? ;)   So your explanations through your so called excellent circuit analysis skills maybe should not be relied upon really. I mean you are still on the plasma battery cap pumping ideas as valid up until today.  Still talking plasma plasma plasma

What next? I took the coil apart and installed hidden circuitry?   Well you may have to use that one soon.....


Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on October 30, 2017, 03:24:52 AM
Better to make an attempt at an explanation and get it wrong and exercise your brain, than to offer no explanation.  And I even made it more challenging by not looking anything up.  And then after I got it wrong I went on a learning expedition.

And it appears that you are trying to claim some sort of "victory" just because of some secondary ringing that has nothing to do with the main function of the circuit and has nothing whatsoever to do with your pitch.

In all likelihood you are going to find that the plasma spark is done in the form of a continuous DC burn which is what I have been saying the whole time.  There is no resonance associated with the plasma burn.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 30, 2017, 03:30:48 AM
Better to make an attempt at an explanation and get it wrong and exercise your brain, than to offer no explanation.  And I even made it more challenging by not looking anything up.  And then after I got it wrong I went on a learning expedition.

And it appears that you are trying to claim some sort of "victory" just because of some secondary ringing that has nothing to do with the main function of the circuit and has nothing whatsoever to do with your pitch.

In all likelihood you are going to find that the plasma spark is done in the form of a continuous DC burn which is what I have been saying the whole time.  There is no resonance associated with the plasma burn.

Ok then.  Keep playing in your plasma. ::)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNLUGqH4W1c&feature=youtu.be

Vid is short.  And I hope I didnt hurt my scope..... ???

Mags

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 30, 2017, 03:45:30 AM
Better to make an attempt at an explanation and get it wrong and exercise your brain, than to offer no explanation.  And I even made it more challenging by not looking anything up.  And then after I got it wrong I went on a learning expedition.

And it appears that you are trying to claim some sort of "victory" just because of some secondary ringing that has nothing to do with the main function of the circuit and has nothing whatsoever to do with your pitch.

In all likelihood you are going to find that the plasma spark is done in the form of a continuous DC burn which is what I have been saying the whole time.  There is no resonance associated with the plasma burn.


"And it appears that you are trying to claim some sort of "victory" just because of some secondary ringing that has nothing to do with the main function of the circuit and has nothing whatsoever to do with your pitch."

Again, show me in any of my posts that i have said the words "secondary ringing"..  Never said it.  I have always even in PM before this thread, it is the primary and the cap..  This is the second post today you have tried to this.  Either show me that I said it or stop saying have been.  Diversion tactics. Trying to discredit  me with false claims in your statements.



"n all likelihood you are going to find that the plasma spark is done in the form of a continuous DC burn which is what I have been saying the whole time.  There is no resonance associated with the plasma burn"

No MH. In the end the plasma plasma plasma is going to burn you and your expert circuit analysis claims.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on October 30, 2017, 03:45:59 AM
Ok then.  Keep playing in your plasma. ::)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNLUGqH4W1c&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNLUGqH4W1c&feature=youtu.be)

Vid is short.  And I hope I didnt hurt my scope..... ???

Mags

Mags

Great, now you can explain to your audience what it all means.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on October 30, 2017, 03:55:48 AM
Again, show me in any of my posts that i have said the words "secondary ringing"..  Never said it.  I have always even in PM before this thread, it is the primary and the cap..  This is the second post today you have tried to this.  Either show me that I said it or stop saying have been.  Diversion tactics. Trying to discredit  me with false claims in your statements.

Your pitch is that the operation of this circuit is resonance based and that because of the resonance you get a bigger spark and "gain."  This is irrespective of discussions about the primary or the secondary.  And if the primary rings then the secondary rings also.

Quote
In the very short second vid, when with the capacitor connected, you can see it is not just one thin spark like without the cap connected. There are multiple sparks happening during the ring down of the resonant LC. 

There is a gain by way of resonance here.

Looking forward to your proper explanation of the circuit now that you have a set up and how resonance gives you a gain.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 30, 2017, 04:01:21 AM
Great, now you can explain to your audience what it all means.

After a couple more vids on this, Im done here..  If you up until today have disputed that resonance even exist in the primary circuit, then keep crying wolf till you find someone else to do more vids on this..

I have shown you were wrong with all your talk on "there is no resonance" before today..
 
I have shown the scope shots that you claimed I would not show because you say that there was no resonance and i could not show them.

I have corrected myself with Brads claim of spark when the switch closes. He was totally correct on that.  But I dont see that the cap helps out any because I can ONLY get that to happen with the cap, not without, so far.  My first 2 vids do not show it. Some reason the install of the ballast resistor helped it to show up for me here.

I have shown a lot.  Im going to go home and watch The Walking Dead. relax, eat some good food.  Maybe Ill see you in this episode walking around, dribbling plasma.....8th season just began last sun.  Love this show... 

Nah  Im done explaining.. resonance give us a gain...  After a couple short vids to wrap it up, Im back in the speaker thread, to talk more about resonance gains.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on October 30, 2017, 04:05:26 AM
I see a balloon deflating and and you preparing to run away.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 30, 2017, 04:10:14 AM
Your pitch is that the operation of this circuit is resonance based and that because of the resonance you get a bigger spark and "gain."  This is irrespective of discussions about the primary or the secondary.  And if the primary rings then the secondary rings also.

Looking forward to your proper explanation of the circuit now that you have a set up and how resonance gives you a gain.

No pitch..  Your the pitch!  lol   Im done M..  Im not here to explain the circuit any further.  like i said in my last post.  Ive shown what I wanted to show.  You can dispute it further.  I sure as hell know you wont stop.  So be my guest..    But dont be surprised if I do like Luc does and make a new thread just on my findings here on this subject and just lock the thread so it cant be touched.  If you want to further argue on this thread then be my guest. Im done here. Ive shown way more than your imaginary circuits have shown. Im not going to just go on and on with you.. 

You have shown that you , well, umm?  hmm?  What really have you shown? ???

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 30, 2017, 04:20:26 AM
I see a balloon deflating and and you preparing to run away.


Run away from you and your fully discredited circuit analysis expertise.  ;) Fully! Completely! You dont show you know anything so far in this thread. Plasma plasma plasma.  You have failed from page 2 again and agian. I have shown what I said I would show.... You have shown your not as good as you say you are..  Brad was the only other one here that stepped up to the plate with real knowledge. I truely and in my previous vids show, never ever seen the spark he spoke of till I installed the ballast resistor. He and I need to discus the caps purpose on that particular event but thats it. None of your posts interest me except the one of that vid you provide that describes my reasoning, as you said, 100%.  The rest can be literally tossed out... None of it was correct.

Run away now?  Nope. Just to the next step on resonant gains. You are wasting my time. The speakers is where it gets fun.  ;) ;D

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on October 30, 2017, 04:28:04 AM
Like I predicted, a SUPER-FAIL!!!!

You haven't shown anything except more show and don't tell, you haven't explained anything. If you sniffed out the secondary discharge, you would find no evidence of resonance whatsoever.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 30, 2017, 05:06:20 AM
Like I predicted, a SUPER-FAIL!!!!

You haven't shown anything except more show and don't tell, you haven't explained anything. If you sniffed out the secondary discharge, you would find no evidence of resonance whatsoever.

Its funny. there are explanations on the net that agree with me.  Now show me any that agree with your plasma plasma plasma, then we will talk.

There, I approved your post. You complained in pm to the others about it.  I been gone what, 30min and you try to make it look like I dont approve your posts. Dude Im not here all day like you. So ya know what, since im done on my end, you wait till stefan approves your posts if you want them when Im not here.

Mags

Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 30, 2017, 06:06:35 PM
Hey Brad

Dont know if you have seen last nights vid.  It shows the switch on spark you say there is. The only really difference in the circuit is the addition of the ballast resistor and the relay as contacts instead of the knife switches of my first vids.  There was never a closed switch spark then.  But here I only get it when the cap is connected, not when the cap us removed. Am I doing something wrong here? TK keeps talking about dwell in pm. Might that be the case here? I can adjust the timing of the relay to fit given specs at say and idle rpm time frame to try.  Like during a 60deg rotation they could be set up at 32deg closed and 28deg open...If you think that may help figure out this particular issue, but I do not think thats it thus far.

I sorry for the other day..  With all that i have to deal with from MH, it all seemed like you were coming to counter my views also, and it just lit me up. lol  From the mysterious approvals of Mhs posts that I nor Grum had done, and I could only imagine it was you, then you posting your post that caboggled me as I really didnt think the closed contact spark could occur.  I have other vids using this same coil that i have used off and on for years now, and never seen it.  So It did seem like it was made up.. I even tried it before I took apart the knife switch circuit and could not get it to happen..  I cant say yet that the ballast resistor is the key yet. Going to remove that today to see.   

And with the cap in the circuit across the switch(is the only time I can produce the spark switch closed) I cannot see how it would help like you explain to prevent the closed spark.  Can you help me out with understanding what you mean there? 

Im not interested in how it has to do with the resonance part, I just want to know for me because Im getting the spark with the cap and not without the cap as you seem to explain it would happen.. So again, maybe there is something wrong with how Im doing it and if you could help figure it out that would be cool.

Mags










Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: norman6538 on October 30, 2017, 07:32:47 PM
I want to make 2 point.
I. if the spark occurs when the points close then wouldn't it mess up the timing and cause preignition?
I think a weak spark might occur but like trying to start a small engine with a rope - pull it slowly
and it will never start cause the spark is too weak to make it fire.

2.The Tesla circuit is so clever but thinking ahead is there something that we could do with the plasma
that would give us something else that is desireable.

Bruce Perreault once told us to collect some power from a spark gap without a wire connection and we did.
A coil near that plasma will collect power in a collection capacitor.....Each time it sparks it will add more to the
capacitor if it has a diode to keep it there.

But we got stuck there and did not know where to go with that.
So I post that for some creative ideas.

Norman
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 30, 2017, 10:14:35 PM
This vid below shows a cap discharge into the primary of this coil, you have seen here in my vids, back just about 7 years ago.
Im using a neon driver circuit from an old scanner printer, that now a days use leds, to charge the cap via an AV plug diode config that charges the cap via only 1 wire or to say 1 actual conductor from 1 lead of the secondary of the neon driver circuit.

The cap gets charged to 250v and the Sidac device works like a spark gap and breaks down at 250v and wont stop the current flow till the current gets to some minimum then the sidac opens.  So no resonance here, just showing the fact that the tiny cap Im using in this vid below gets to 250v it discharges into the primary and gives a very nice spark..   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EP8M4YcGio&t=3s

So why would it be SO hard for MH to believe that the cap in the ign circuit in this thread could not produce the longer stronger, visibly multiple arc spark when the cap and coil are bouncing around, what was it, 450v to start at the beginning of the ring down?  I believe it. Have since before this thread was started. I have no reasons not to believe it..  Look at that long spark in this vid at only 250v and only allowed to discharge 1 time due to the properties of the sidac.

Later in the vid I add some capacitance between the other open end of the drivers HV secondary and just the can of the spark coil and the sparks come faster....

Anyway, Just thought Id bring that up. It helps to understand my reasoning for my claim.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 30, 2017, 10:20:27 PM
Someone posted a comment on my vid i posted here last night and I replied, but today I cant see the replies.. Says there is 2 of them. Cant even see them on my phone browser logged in or not. Maybe be just a day of the glitches

Strange..

mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 30, 2017, 10:44:53 PM
I want to make 2 point.
I. if the spark occurs when the points close then wouldn't it mess up the timing and cause preignition?
I think a weak spark might occur but like trying to start a small engine with a rope - pull it slowly
and it will never start cause the spark is too weak to make it fire.

2.The Tesla circuit is so clever but thinking ahead is there something that we could do with the plasma
that would give us something else that is desireable.

Bruce Perreault once told us to collect some power from a spark gap without a wire connection and we did.
A coil near that plasma will collect power in a collection capacitor.....Each time it sparks it will add more to the
capacitor if it has a diode to keep it there.

But we got stuck there and did not know where to go with that.
So I post that for some creative ideas.

Norman

What we would have to do is check the distributor for position of the rotor to see if the 'close contact' spark is even anywhere near the next electrode post for the next cylinder to misfire. Need to look at that.  Is it just at the end of the combustion stroke that the switch finally closes?  Is the distributor rotor far enough away from  the the previous distributor post it just fired into at the correct time, or is the rotor already far away and close to the next post to close contacts fire too early into the next plug in the firing order?

Im thinking it closes before the end of the combustion stroke or even lights fire to some too rich mixture that all the fuel hasnt burned yet and lights it up when the exhaust valve is open and pop pop..   I cant say that the closed spark happens to fire the next plug inline when the next cyl has its intake valve open to send fire thogh the carby, as brad seems to indicate.  You can blow flames out the carb all day if you turn the distributor 180.

"2.The Tesla circuit is so clever but thinking ahead is there something that we could do with the plasma
that would give us something else that is desireable."

I cant say..   Like what good could it do? Any ideas?  I think Tesla liked sparks that just jumped then somehow, whether with magnets or air pressure at the gap, kill it off before it burns itself out..  From most all I have read that was key somehow..

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 31, 2017, 12:47:27 AM
Mh says in Pm that he has hit the mother load on this. Says the primary and cap oscillate during the plasma burn...not after like he has been saying just yesterday.

Well I have a little insight on that. Ill tell it after his new explanation.  At least he is now seeming to accept the primary and cap oscillations. But lets see what he comes up with.  just told me in PM.


Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on October 31, 2017, 01:10:56 AM
Hey Brad

Dont know if you have seen last nights vid.  It shows the switch on spark you say there is. The only really difference in the circuit is the addition of the ballast resistor and the relay as contacts instead of the knife switches of my first vids.  There was never a closed switch spark then.  But here I only get it when the cap is connected, not when the cap us removed. Am I doing something wrong here? TK keeps talking about dwell in pm. Might that be the case here? I can adjust the timing of the relay to fit given specs at say and idle rpm time frame to try.  Like during a 60deg rotation they could be set up at 32deg closed and 28deg open...If you think that may help figure out this particular issue, but I do not think thats it thus far.

I sorry for the other day..  With all that i have to deal with from MH, it all seemed like you were coming to counter my views also, and it just lit me up. lol  From the mysterious approvals of Mhs posts that I nor Grum had done, and I could only imagine it was you, then you posting your post that caboggled me as I really didnt think the closed contact spark could occur.  I have other vids using this same coil that i have used off and on for years now, and never seen it.  So It did seem like it was made up.. I even tried it before I took apart the knife switch circuit and could not get it to happen..  I cant say yet that the ballast resistor is the key yet. Going to remove that today to see.   

And with the cap in the circuit across the switch(is the only time I can produce the spark switch closed) I cannot see how it would help like you explain to prevent the closed spark.  Can you help me out with understanding what you mean there? 

Im not interested in how it has to do with the resonance part, I just want to know for me because Im getting the spark with the cap and not without the cap as you seem to explain it would happen.. So again, maybe there is something wrong with how Im doing it and if you could help figure it out that would be cool.

Mags

Hi Mag's

I have been quite ill the last couple of day's,and have not left my bed much.

It is good to see that you have seen the spark during switch close.

In the points ignition system,in this case,the condenser never allows the voltage across the primary coil to fall to 0,and so the amplitude of change within the primary is smaller with the condenser in place than without it.
This stops the switch closed spark taking place.

Quote
I sorry for the other day..

All good Mag's.

I will shoot that video as soon as im back on my feet--maybe even today.

Quote
TK keeps talking about dwell in pm

Dwell time is just how long the coil is energized--or points closed in this case.
This is adjusted by the points gap. Larger the gap,the less the dwell time.


Brad
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on October 31, 2017, 01:46:07 AM
Okay, I finally found a 100% credible source that goes over the voltages observed on the primary and secondary during an ignition cycle.  There is resonance between the primary and the capacitor during the plasma burn, but it is a qualified resonance which I will explain below.

The source is Crypton Diagnostic Equipment in South Africa, they are automotive techs.

http://www.crypton.co.za/ (http://www.crypton.co.za/)

An explanation of the ignition cycle with clickable waveforms:

http://www.crypton.co.za/Tto%20know/Ignition/ignition%20overview.html (http://www.crypton.co.za/Tto%20know/Ignition/ignition%20overview.html)

Small discussion on spark burn time duration for street cred:

http://www.crypton.co.za/Tto%20know/Ignition/burn%20time.html (http://www.crypton.co.za/Tto%20know/Ignition/burn%20time.html)

The primary waveform:

http://www.crypton.co.za/Tto%20know/Ignition/primary.jpg (http://www.crypton.co.za/Tto%20know/Ignition/primary.jpg)

The secondary waveform:

http://www.crypton.co.za/Tto%20know/Ignition/secondary.jpg (http://www.crypton.co.za/Tto%20know/Ignition/secondary.jpg)

Discussion about the waveforms:

Starting with the secondary, you see the initial high-voltage peak that ignites the plasma.  That's actually the secondary version of the primary voltage increasing as it charges the capacitor.  Then you have the straight and steady spark burn voltage line.  This is where the secondary completely drains the core of magnetic energy.  There is no current waveform, but if you could see one, it would look roughly like a linear down-ramp to zero.

Then you see ringing on the secondary, the so-called "resonance."  This is nothing more than a reflection of the ringing on the primary, so I will discuss it in the primary discussion.  There is no plasma generation during this ringing.

Now moving on to the primary.  You see the voltage go up on the primary until the secondary punches through the air and creates the plasma.  Then you see a high-frequency ringing.  The high-frequency ringing is ringing between the primary and the capacitor during the burn time of the secondary.  Since the secondary is doing a DC-type of burn, and the primary-secondary form a transformer, the plasma looks like a load to the ringing primary.  That's why the exponential decay is very fast during the duration of the plasma burn.  So how would this affect the current waveform of the plasma burn?  The answer is simple, we know the current waveform for the plasma burn is roughly a linear down-ramp to zero, and therefore there would be a slight "wiggle" superimposed on the current waveform because of the coupling to the resonating primary.

After the burn is completed, you notice that the frequency of the resonating drastically changes and gets much lower, and the decay envelope to the resonance is much slower.  Note during the burn the inductance is reduced, and is based on the primary which has less turns than the secondary.  Once the secondary has finished its burn, it stops acting like a transformer and the secondary "joins forces" with the primary to create a larger inductor. So the effective inductance increases and therefore the resonant frequency decreases.  Likewise, after the burn is over, the burning plasma resistor is not a load on the primary any more, and therefore the resonance oscillation decays away more slowly.

So what is the skinny on this?   It is as follows:  The primary and capacitor resonate during the plasma burn and after the plasma burn.  But this oscillation has no real affect on the main function of the circuit which is the secondary doing a big energy dump to create the spark on the secondary.  The fact that the primary is resonating with the capacitor the whole time has no real affect on the plasma burn.

So from my previous comments where was I wrong:  The answer is that I thought that once the plasma ignited and the energy was draining away from the core and this put a pretty constant DC bias on the primary.  So if there was any ringing it would be relatively low in amplitude.  It's apparent from the primary waveform that once the burn starts that gives the primary-capacitor LC resonator enough of a jolt to have it resonate with some robustness.  However, as stated before, this resonance only imposes a small "wiggle" on the decaying current waveform of the main burn of the secondary.  The secondary is an inductor discharging into a non-linear plasma resistor and it is a current source with a one-track mind - keep the current as constant as possible and as the energy level in the core drops, the current level also drops.

So what are the implications for Magluvin's claim of a "gain because of the magic of resonance."  Well, if the primary and the capacitor are resonating and pumping power into the spark plasma, then clearly the amount of energy put into the plasma during the burn increases.  But of course Magluvin is learning this as he reads this himself so it's difficult to do another "victory dance."  If you are going to be realistic you say, "Okay, the ringing primary-capacitor puts perhaps a small bit of extra energy into the plasma, but it is not truly a "resonance phenomenon giving the circuit a gain."  I am pretty convinced that the real "gains" come from the capacitor preventing the points from arcing.

All of the above discussion is actually material that Magluvin should have been generating himself.  He has the test setup but he refused to do anything, presumably because he can't.  For example, how much energy is in the core of the ignition coil?  We know the voltage on the capacitor so getting the energy in the cap is trivial.  You can measure the energy in the core with a trivial test without even touching the secondary.  How does the cap energy compare to the magnetic energy in the core?  If you put a low value resistor on the secondary to clamp the secondary voltage to a low value (simulating the plasma) can you make safe measurements of the energy output from the coil and then make some estimates of what the what gains you get from the primary-capacitor resonator?  I am pretty sure you can.  These are all interesting and challenging questions that Magluvin could have been investigating but instead he just walked away.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 31, 2017, 02:28:35 AM
Ill go over it in a couple hours.  Doing laundry

Remember when I first brought up the subject of the ign system with you MH?   I said lastly in that post....

"Or could it be that if there is a time period of ringing during the spark, that the succession of sparks ionizes the air starting with the first pip and the successive sparks can cross that path with more current till its finished?"


So maybe you got locked onto the plasma by my saying that above.  But here is something I have found very strange. Said so here in a post before I was doint my first vid.  the cam stopped for some reason at 13min and wasnt finished. Didnt have time to fit it in in the first vid because I was worried the cam would fail if I went to long.. But here is an oddity


The secondary hv terminal goes to the distributor and then the spark plug and to battery ground..  Whats crazy is, if the spark happens when the points are open, then where is the path for the other end of the secondary???  The bottom end of the sec coil is only connected to gnd via either the condenser as a path, or the spark between the points gap OR through the ballast resistor and through the pos of the battery to gnd..


Which is it?   I connected my gnd end of my spark plug to battery gnd. Then to - of the coil, then to + of the coil.  Didnt make any difference in the spark that I could see.

But, cap or no cap, things were the same.  Even the points gap spark were the same.  Could the HV sec have a path to gnd through the cap? Or the points spark?  Strange


But in each case the resonant ring on the scope was there with the cap, and not there without it..
So its just an odd mystery thus far, that does not change the circumstances of spark with cap or spark with no cap....More later 

Im leaning toward the HV path is from the pos terminal of the coil and through the ballast and battery being I see no difference in operation where ever I put the spark plugs gnd connection

Seen some internal coil connection pics where some the bottom end of the sec is connector to the + of the primary and some that are to the - of the primary.  the whole thing once i realized the - terminal of the coil I was using as a plug gnd path was not battery gnd like the battery and engine block are always basically gnd and if the contacts are open where is the plugs gnd terminal back to the coil.. 

Its probably not just me that just assumed that the bottom end of the sec was just always direct battery gnd.. 

mags

Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: SeaMonkey on October 31, 2017, 02:52:55 AM
There seems to be some confusion regarding the function and
purpose of the Capacitor which parallels the breaker points in
the Kettering Ignition System (aka Delco Ignition System.)

The capacitor was typically 0.22 MicroFarads up to 1.0 Micro-
Farad.

Here are some links which offer some clarity, but not a full
understanding.  I do believe Miles Higher has the
understanding of fullness.

Wikipedia on Ignition Systems
 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_system)
Kettering Ignition System
 (http://www.ratwell.com/mirror/users.mrbean.net.au/~rover/ketterin.htm)
Delco Ignition System
 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delco_ignition_system)
Battery Coil Ignition (http://bmwvmca.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=244&Itemid=37)

The Auto Ignition System (https://parts-ring.com/the-ignition-system/)

Whenever a Coil and a Capacitor are series connected
a resonant circuit is formed.  This is the case in the
Kettering System when the breaker points "open" to
produce the spark at the spark plugs.  But, the question
is, is the "resonance" of the primary circuit responsible
for the "hot spark" or is it just the capacitor itself which
makes the difference?

Calculate the resonant frequency of the primary circuit
to acquire additional comprehension.  The inductance
of the primary winding of the typical ignition coil is said
to be about 8 MilliHenries.

Is the "resonant frequency" of the LC combination high
enough to affect sparking action?

Automotive Ignition Coils (http://home.earthlink.net/~jimlux/hv/igncoil.htm)

Ignition Coil Circuit Simulation by Bowling and Grippo (http://bgsoflex.com/igncoil.html)

Automobile Ignition Question discussion
 (http://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/automobile-ignition-question.114642/)
What is the function of the capacitor? (https://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080803011923AAKIebG)
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on October 31, 2017, 03:46:17 AM
Here is a nice Aussie YouTube mechanic that has some nice clips but there are a few imperfections here and there.

In the first clip below he gives a nice overview (I found the mother load through him) and he made a mistake that I corrected for him with a comment on the clip.  I hope he takes the comment nicely.

The clip:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNllhOWGHhg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNllhOWGHhg)

My comment on the clip:

<<< Hi, you have very nice informative clips.  I am not a car guy but I have a background in electrical engineering and I just want to clarify a point for you.  At 9:35 in discussing the oscillations between the condenser and the primary you say "to get the most amount of energy (into the spark) we have to increase the speed of the flux lines crossing over."  This is not what is happening.  What you are saying is a popular misconception.  Here is the proper explanation:  When the HV secondary ignites the plasma there is a continuous plasma burn with the secondary at a constant voltage at say 800 volts.  During this time the secondary is on a continuous burn pumping the stored magnetic energy into the plasma spark.  This is an "automatic" process that has to do with the way inductors work.  It's sort of like a charging bull with a momentum of its own.  You mentioned that coils have electrical inertia to energize them.  This is the inertia working in the opposite direction while the coil de-energizes.  So the secondary discharging does not "need" the primary to oscillate with the capacitor to "get the most amount of energy (into the spark)."  In technical terms the discharging secondary inductor is a "current source" (as opposed to a voltage source.)  The primary oscillating with the capacitor is a secondary process that will make the main discharge of the secondary into the plasma "wiggle" a bit because of the mutual inductance a.k.a. transformer coupling.   >>>

Here are a few other clips from the mechanic that may be of interest, but there may be some imperfections in them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fja2XH8AyyE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fja2XH8AyyE)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8M-07nluAE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8M-07nluAE)
 
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on October 31, 2017, 07:59:03 AM
The Aussie mechanic on YouTube liked my comment.

I have one more comment to add that in a way is going full-circle.  When the current in the resonant LC is going counter-clockwise during the resonant ring-down, then the battery becomes a power source that adds a (presumably) small amount of energy to the plasma burn.  This is the infamous step-up transformer action and would only apply while the plasma is lit.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: webby1 on October 31, 2017, 01:17:35 PM
It is nice to see people getting up to speed on an ignition system :)


These were what I knew of about "scope" patterns for a very long time,, that is these were the only things I used a scope for.


MH,, now look at what happens when there are imperfections within the burn,, that is bad things like valve seats, rings, lean, rich,, bad plug one way or the other,,


Not saying that there is a path to gain,, but in a part that should mainly be out there is feedback that can happen,, and if this feedback is "from" the burn back into the plasma back into the secondary back into the primary,, I know very far fetched,, but then so would be ionizing a dielectric medium,, could there not be a tie into the environment that could feedback into the ignition system???
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: citfta on October 31, 2017, 02:05:40 PM
I have only a couple of things to add.  First off leave ME out of your pms!  I have been gone for a week and when I got back my email box was filled with emails telling me I had a PM.  Then I log in and had to delete tons of PMs that I did not take time to read.

I have skimmed this thread enough to understand the MH has finally admitted that he was mostly wrong about how the system works.  He still insists, if I understand his posts that there is no resonance in the ignition circuit.  Then WHAT IN THE WORLD ESTABLISHES THE RING DOWN FREQUENCY?  Come on MH.  We are not all morons here that you can baffle with that kind of BS.  I have already explained how the system works.  I will not waste any more time on this.  I just don't care that much anymore that there are people who don't want to learn the truth.

Carroll
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: profitis on October 31, 2017, 04:04:43 PM
" I have been gone for a week
and when I got back my email box was filled with
emails telling me I had a PM.  Then I log in and had
to delete tons of PMs that I did not"

That's terrorville.I'm so happy I don't have such things
to worry avout anymo
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on October 31, 2017, 05:27:53 PM
Here is a simple thought experiment about the ignition circuit:

Firstly, let's list what the capacitor does in order of priority:

1.  It protects the contact points from arcing.
2.  It delays the onset of the ignition spark hence affecting the engine timing.
3.  It does an innocuous ring-down with the primary while the plasma burn is talking place and after the plasma burn has finished that does not affect the ignition process.

Here it the thought experiment:  Imagine that as soon as the capacitor has done its two main jobs, protecting the contact points and delaying the onset of the ignition spark that it was then cut out of the circuit only to reappear the next time it is needed.  So there is an "imaginary switch" that disconnects the capacitor at the right time.  In other words, you completely eliminate the resonance between the capacitor and the primary.  What would happen?

The answer is that nothing would happen.  The ignition circuit would perform essentially identically without the resonance happening at all.

And that is the critical thing that it appears some people might not be understanding.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: citfta on October 31, 2017, 05:33:27 PM
Well I received another long email from MileHigh in which he demanded that I retract my statement where I said I thought he had finally admitted he was wrong about how the ignition circuit works.  He insists he has NOT admitted he was wrong.  So there you have his final answer.  In spite of his posting of several videos that clearly show the ignition circuit does not work like he originally claimed, he still denies he was wrong.  So I do here and now admit I was wrong to claim he admitted he was wrong.  I will not be answering any further PMs or posts from MH.  I just don't have time for that right now.  In the past I have come to MH's defense when I believed he was right.  But I will not be a puppet for him when he is clearly wrong.

Carroll
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: webby1 on October 31, 2017, 05:50:42 PM
Something fun,, after the vid the next one is fun,, well in a rudimentary way :)


Spark plugs,,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PJweiCRFoU
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: forest on October 31, 2017, 06:17:04 PM
I wonder if this thread will be as long as  "energy amplification" thread  :-)  I suppose the only correct answer would give you Edwin Gray or Marvin Cole or whoever created the EV Gray motor ;-) he surely knew. Maybe Tito would be kind to answer but I don't think so
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: forest on October 31, 2017, 06:19:55 PM
I suspect that Kapanadze started with old car ignition coil, then moved to kind of replica with the third coil shorted and the secondary of third coil as output . I'm quite sure this is it.
If you know what you are doing then the output of car coil can be step down using third coil and a secondary to it (like in Tesla patent)
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: webby1 on October 31, 2017, 07:07:36 PM
While thinking about perfectly useless stuff I pondered a simple question,,


What is the efficiency of the ignition system?


Its goal is to ignite the air\fuel,, that happens during the burn time,,


so,,
could adding in more energy during that burn time increase the percentage of air\fuel ignited by the ignition system?
can that added energy be taken from the ring down on the primary?
is there feedback from the combustion process?


Maybe we need to look past that first tree :)
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: citfta on October 31, 2017, 08:30:06 PM
After ANOTHER email questioning my intelligence I have discovered a neat feature if this forum.  If you go to your messages and look around a little you can find a link to setting up message rules.  When you click on that you then have the ability to automatically delete PMs from anyone you choose.  I think this will be a great way to end the constant barrage of PMs I have been getting.  The appropriate person has been added to my delete list.

Carroll
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: SeaMonkey on October 31, 2017, 09:14:12 PM
Quote from: Miles Higher
When it comes to an ignition circuit and what it actually does - produce
a spark across a spark plug gap, it's all about the secondary and the
primary is just a minor side-show.  You have to keep your eye on the ball.

The secondary is not induced by the oscillating primary.  Once the
secondary is finished doing the plasma burn which I suspect represents
more than 90% of the energy put into the core in the first place, only
then does the primary oscillate with the capacitor, and this has nothing
to do with the plasma generation.  It's just a harmless artifact of why the
capacitor was put there in the first place - to protect the points.

Repeat:  The capacitor is there to protect the points, it was not put
there to create a resonance with the primary to give you a more robust
spark.  As I said a few times already, it looks like the main reason for the
more robust spark is the capacitor prevents the arcing of the points which
represents a considerable loss of energy.  I also said there is a simple test
that can be done to check for this.

Miles has explained it correctly.  "Resonance" is not a factor in the process
of supplying High Voltage Energy to the Spark Plug by Inductive Discharge
of the Ignition Coil.

However, it is possible to construct an Electronic Ignition System which
will produce a rapid succession of sparks within a short time span in order
to improve combustion of the fuel/air mixture.  Racing Cars sometimes
employ such a system.  The Ford Model T Ignition System used Ignition
Coils with "buzzers" to produce such an effect many years ago.  The Model
T also enabled selection of Battery Ignition or Magneto by the driver at
will.  They don't make 'em today like they used to. ;)
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 31, 2017, 09:14:39 PM

Carrol Im sorry.  I did not make the CC list for all those in PM  I did have the right to reply to certain posts there.  If I had only replied to Mh then only his end of the story would be told there.

I really appreciate your view here as it reflects my view that MH will stop at nothing to quench the idea that resonance helps the spark to be more that it is without the cap.

He has attacked the idea from the very beginning that an LC resonance has anything to do with helping the circuit produce a better spark than we get without the cap installed. Even to the point of there is no resonant ring at all in the circuit, all the way up until just a few hours before I posted my vid showing the scope shots.

And I had posted my prediction 'here'  that he would now say there is a resonant ring, and now will have to come up with reasons why it still has nothing to do with making a better spark.  And he did so.

I just got back on here since last night.  A lot to go over and I have a lot of other things to do today.

Will be back later

Mags

Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: SeaMonkey on October 31, 2017, 09:38:38 PM
The waveform images that Miles posted earlier are
very informative.

There are oscillations in the Primary Circuit during
the time that the Breaker Points are Open.  It is
possible to see that the oscillations occur at two
distinctly different frequencies:  during spark burn
time the frequency is higher than the frequency
which appears following spark burn time.

Why is this so?

Also, why is there no evidence of oscillation in the
Secondary Circuit until after the spark has
extinguished?

Answer those questions and you'll have mastered
the Operation of the Kettering Ignition System.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 31, 2017, 10:05:23 PM
Here is a PM from MH That I want to respond to.   There were * people in the CC list and carrol was not included there, but was attacked in the post, so...




"I am going to assume that most of you people reading the above get it.  You get that the "resonance" has nothing of substance to do with the operation of the circuit, which is essentially what I have been saying the whole time.  I said that there was "no resonance" and it turns out that there was "inconsequential resonance that had nothing to do with the plasma spark generation."

So why pray tell was Magluvin saying that I am an "anti-resonance shill" or "paid by the powers that be."  Magluvin will be lucky if he gets 100 views on his ignition circuit videos over the next 18 months!  And this is not only Magluvin here, these types of accusations are thrown around all the time.  You just want to discuss a circuit and get it right, and you are accused of being an agent for the National Security Agency.  I got so much shit for just trying to discuss the reality of the ignition circuit and I got dragged through the mud for the 100th time.

Final thoughts from Carroll:  <<<  In the past I have come to MH's defense when I believed he was right.  But I will not be a puppet for him when he is clearly wrong. >>>

What Carroll is saying is almost as bad but at least he doesn't think I work for the bloody CIA.  He turned himself into a clown with his statement and his "explanation" for the ignition circuit was bullshit
."


Here in the first paragraph....

"I am going to assume that most of you people reading the above get it.  You get that the "resonance" has nothing of substance to do with the operation of the circuit, which is essentially what I have been saying the whole time.  I said that there was "no resonance" and it turns out that there was "inconsequential resonance that had nothing to do with the plasma spark generation."

Just as I predicted before showing my vid...And then ....


"So why pray tell was Magluvin saying that I am an "anti-resonance shill" or "paid by the powers that be."  Magluvin will be lucky if he gets 100 views on his ignition circuit videos over the next 18 months!  And this is not only Magluvin here, these types of accusations are thrown around all the time.  You just want to discuss a circuit and get it right, and you are accused of being an agent for the National Security Agency.  I got so much shit for just trying to discuss the reality of the ignition circuit and I got dragged through the mud for the 100th time."

It is clear why MH.  What I had claimed in the context of you being a shill makes more sense than youpersonally just wanting me to be wrong all the time, as you clearly show in this thread.

I dont care about views on my yt channel.  I dont put up ads on my vids.  I have messages from yt to do adds an make money. I have some vids that have enough view for them to ask. But I dont do this. My vids are free for all without delay, and not taking up peoples time unnecessarily with ads .

You 'got so much shit', as you say, because you have failed to even analyze the circuit from beginning till now, and keep saying I have failed.  I have held my stance on this since before this thread in pm. Your work here in this has been a disaster from page 2. Its only a 10 page thread.  Doesnt take that long to go over to find out the truth.  If i thought I was in the wrong and you were just right the whole time, then I probably wouldnt recommend people read these 10 pages again to see what is there.  But I want the ones that think otherwise of my views to do just that. I want them to show me where i went wrong and you were correct the whole time.  Thing is they cant.

Not a shill? Then what is it M?  Is it just a vendetta to try and make me look bad at any cost, even fake circuit analysis from you to just make me look bad even though Im right? Is that it?? Well its one of the 2.

If its the latter then seek a therapist because it is not doing you any good for your reputation you feel you hold so dearly.

If it is the former, then yes, a shill will lie cheat and bring on make believe arguments till the idea of any resonance gains is quenched. A shill will stop at nothing to get the job done.

Search monsanto shill stories. Milk industry shills. Pharmaceutical shills. Etc.  If one reads on these things then it becomes apparent you are clearly following that path here in this thread. And other threads I can link up to here on this site.


"Final thoughts from Carroll:  <<<  In the past I have come to MH's defense when I believed he was right.  But I will not be a puppet for him when he is clearly wrong. >>>

What Carroll is saying is almost as bad but at least he doesn't think I work for the bloody CIA.  He turned himself into a clown with his statement and his "explanation" for the ignition circuit was bullshit
."


Are you calling carrol a clown?   There are 10 pages of you center stage at the circus here!!.  ;)

Mags 



Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on October 31, 2017, 10:14:01 PM
The waveform images that Miles posted earlier are
very informative.

There are oscillations in the Primary Circuit during
the time that the Breaker Points are Open.  It is
possible to see that the oscillations occur at two
distinctly different frequencies:  during spark burn
time the frequency is higher than the frequency
which appears following spark burn time.

Why is this so?

Also, why is there no evidence of oscillation in the
Secondary Circuit until after the spark has
extinguished?

Answer those questions and you'll have mastered
the Operation of the Kettering Ignition System.

My scope shows the ring with the cap installed to be 12.3khz.  I zoomed in on the wave and it was a consistent 12.3khz. With my earlier calculations in this thread I had come up with 15kz.  Off, but close enough for me. My earlier calculations were with the measurement of the primary with the sec shorted. Here the sec is loaded with spark, which could change the result of the scope reading vs just a shorted sec for calculation. ;)

mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on October 31, 2017, 11:52:46 PM
The waveform images that Miles posted earlier are
very informative.

There are oscillations in the Primary Circuit during
the time that the Breaker Points are Open.  It is
possible to see that the oscillations occur at two
distinctly different frequencies:  during spark burn
time the frequency is higher than the frequency
which appears following spark burn time.

Why is this so?



Because during the spark burn,the secondary appears to have a short across it,and this lowers the inductance value of the primary,thus resulting in a higher natural resonant frequency of the primary.

When the secondary is open(no spark burn),the inductance value of the primary becomes higher,resulting in a lower natural resonant frequency.


Brad
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: SeaMonkey on November 01, 2017, 01:54:16 AM
Tinman,

Yes!  Correct!

During the Spark Burn Time the Secondary Winding is
"sourcing" spark current to the plug of several amperes
as the stored magnetic field dissipates.  The "load" of
the Spark Plug results in a prolonged collapse time of
the stored magnetic field as the Spark Plug current
is generated.  It all happens very quickly.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 01, 2017, 02:15:56 AM
Miles has explained it correctly.  "Resonance" is not a factor in the process
of supplying High Voltage Energy to the Spark Plug by Inductive Discharge
of the Ignition Coil.

However, it is possible to construct an Electronic Ignition System which
will produce a rapid succession of sparks within a short time span in order
to improve combustion of the fuel/air mixture.  Racing Cars sometimes
employ such a system.  The Ford Model T Ignition System used Ignition
Coils with "buzzers" to produce such an effect many years ago.  The Model
T also enabled selection of Battery Ignition or Magneto by the driver at
will.  They don't make 'em today like they used to. ;)


Firstly the 2 pics, one of the primary and one of the secondary.

One thing i notice is the lack of voltage scale to the left, only showing 0v. Nothing to show the differences in scale.

Why is the 'spark duration' period for the primary shorter that the 'spark burn time period' for the secondary? These should have been simultaneous shots yet they dont seem so.

As brad has stated, the spark is shorting out the secondary. Now was this a direct reading across the secondary or was it of a clamp style measurement of a plug wire and what type of measuring device was used? Was it a direct measurement of the plug gap? Where are the reference points of these measurements?

Why is the burn voltage level seemingly level DC voltage during the 'spark burn time period' instead of a declining voltage level till the spark ends??? Is the plug gap regulating the level of voltage across the secondary to show such?

In the very beginning of the spark burn voltage line you can see some sort of oscillation but died off very quickly early in the burn time. If the primary has such influence on the secondary to provide the sec with a spark either when the switch opens, or closes, then why would the primary oscillations of over 300v not have any affect on the sec burn time line, while the sec is loaded??  Those oscillations are in line with having voltage swings that could get the spark to happen in the first place.

If it were battery currents across the plasma, then that spark burn line must be what, 14.5v??  The 14v holds it till the spark burns out?

If that spark burn lin is 14.5v, then why is it the oscillation that occurs in both shots, just after the spark burn ends, not showing a 100:1 ratio between the primary and the secondary shots?

Its all screwed up.

Something is a miss here.   Lets just say the plasma battery spark were to be.. If the battery is not in phase with the initial spark currents it wouldnt happen then. And if it was only when the sec currents after the first initial spark pulled a reversal by way of the cap, then the spark happened in the other direction to get the plasma battery spark, then why not just make the coil with the polarity of the secondary reversed so the initial spark could carry these plasma battery currents instead of first bouncing off of a 600v cap with 1440v???  Them caps would be a gold mine in the service dept.  With that in mind, why not just skip the cap and reverse the polarity of the sec internally, just close the switch to get a spark that seems to be the same as when the switch opens, and you get the battery plasma effect?  Why the cap at all in that proccess??

Why is there plenty of voltage in the primary oscillations to produce the spark I say is there?  On that note, Im going to put together the Tesla igniter circuit using this relay setup.  Large inductor, battery and cap all in one loop. And the relay discharging the cap into the primary directly, no battery in that loop..

I will try several of my larger inductors to get the best match for similar results as for timing as was done in my last vid...  Will the cap and primary oscillate and produce similar sparks like in my previous vids? Will there be a similar ring down between the cap and primary as we have seen in those vids? Look at my vid from 7yrs ago that I posted yesterday. 250v and a great spark..  That was not set up for primary oscillations like the igniter pat circuit will as the Sidace stops the primary current when the current falls to a minimum.

Well Im putting it together now.  This should put this thing to rest once and for all..

The ign system we have been covering has been designed to look very simple. And being sooo simple looking, there are many versions of what others think is going on by what the books, internet links, say is simply going on. And from one source to the next, its like a different book altogether, from seemingly reputable sources....

Mags







Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 01, 2017, 02:22:19 AM
Tinman,

Yes!  Correct!

During the Spark Burn Time the Secondary Winding is
"sourcing" spark current to the plug of several amperes
as the stored magnetic field dissipates.  The "load" of
the Spark Plug results in a prolonged collapse time of
the stored magnetic field as the Spark Plug current
is generated.  It all happens very quickly.

Ok. I get what your thinking, that the loading helps to slow down the field collapse for the time period thus a longer spark. Is that correct?  Well then why would that not happen also without the cap????  We get sparks when we release the battery current from the primary after the field build without the cap, so why isnt it a slowed collapse and long burn then, without the cap in place????  Doesnt wash.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 01, 2017, 02:34:40 AM
Can someone post a comment on my vid here..  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNLUGqH4W1c

I replied to a guy that commented that the ring in the scope shot was my oscilloscope probe and I responded appropriately. The guy seems like a real strange guy, playing with what he seem to imply Kapanadzy coils and such. Was talking about picofarad caps, I suppose in the circuit all over the bench, with what seems to be a web of colored jumper wires all over the place. And he is telling me this 12.3khz oscillations is in my scope probe. Like he know about stray capacitance's and inductance's  and such. ::) ::) ::) But the next day it says there is 2 comments, of which I would agree with, but it will not show the comments.. Just want to see if comments can be posted on the vid since after what Im seeing there.  I dont care if the comment from one of you says my vid sucks. lol  I just want to confirm that there is an issue there. Thanks ahead of time if one of you does this for me.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 01, 2017, 04:01:55 AM
Ok. Someone posted to my vid and i replied.  It now shows 4 comments but will only show the one I just got and my thanks reply.  looked at my bell icon list and it was J Decker that posted the first comment where his and my posts are not visible now, but apparently are still known about..Could J Decker have flagged my reply on my video?? 

Thanks Ron if it was someone from here that helped me out with that comment post ;)

Weird guy. Check his vids if you want to know what I mean.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 01, 2017, 05:51:26 AM
Here is a closeup vid of the spark with the cap connected. You can visually see the lit spots on the terminals where the multiple arcs make contact for each spark session.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgDbBsA15C4&feature=youtu.be

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 01, 2017, 07:18:50 AM
Ok, Simple enough.  This is the setup using Teslas Igniter pat circuit. 

Same battery.
Same spark coil.
Same cap/condenser.
Got rid of the ballast resistor as it is not needed.
Added my large inductor of .92H and 46 ohms

The ballast resistor is no longer needed. The highest current from the battery will be limited by the large inductors resistance value, where in the standard circuit, with ballast resistor in series with the primary, the 12.54v battery sees 2ohms.  So at 2ohms the standard circuit can pull 6.28 amps, but in the Igniter circuit, the battery will see 47ohms, 46 large inductor and series primary of 1ohm, and the max battery current is 0.26A.   :o ;)

Soooo the coil stays cool. 

Making vid now.  Will be shorts   First of the circuit in operation, Then a quicky of close ups of the sparks, and then the scope shots..

And when we see resonant ringing, Mh will have to explain again why the resonance does not give us multiple larger sparks.

This one I had in my bag of tricks to further prove my points, AND show how we can reduce efficiency of the system, just as tesla tells us in his patent. And he says it too. ;) ;)

Just a simple calculation on peak watt values between the 2 circuits....


12.54v x 6.28A = 78.75W for the conventional circuit   or is it more with plasma battery plasma plasma???

12.54v x .26A = 3.5w for the Igniter circuit specifically designed for more efficient ignition systems.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 01, 2017, 08:52:00 AM
Ok. Here is the vid of the Tesla Igniter pat circuit in action..  It just made the whole thing way more efficient on top of producing multiple sparks with resonance of the cap and primary.  ;) Its going to be hard to put the plasma on this one. ;) Teslas system saves us 75.25w from the old systems 78.75w, to max of 3.5w in this igniter circuit. ;) Some of Teslas genius shines. ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkdIDbiCxTM&feature=youtu.be

Enjoy ;)

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 01, 2017, 09:07:03 AM
https://teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla/patents/us-patent-609250-electrical-igniter-gas-engines


Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 01, 2017, 09:20:33 AM
Closeup of Igniter circuit sparks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IafARcXrTs4&feature=youtu.be

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 01, 2017, 09:29:08 AM
Guys.  I just went to rewatch my first vid on the circuit operation on YT and it said private below. I didnt set it for that. I just re-edited it for public.  So I wonder, does that just allow people that have the link to see it, or does it hide it from everyone except me? Just having these issues with YT lately..

So just in case someone couldnt see the vid earlier, it should be public now. ??? ;D

Mags

Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 01, 2017, 10:15:22 AM
Took a pic of the spark..

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 01, 2017, 10:30:37 AM
Another pic with a different optic to get closer.  Not great but you can see the multiple arcs.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 01, 2017, 11:41:40 AM
Ok last vid for today. Made the gap further away from the positive post and the sparks are strong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTzab0CnBIo&feature=youtu.be

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on November 01, 2017, 11:52:25 AM
Ok. I get what your thinking, that the loading helps to slow down the field collapse for the time period thus a longer spark. Is that correct?  Well then why would that not happen also without the cap????  We get sparks when we release the battery current from the primary after the field build without the cap, so why isnt it a slowed collapse and long burn then, without the cap in place????  Doesnt wash.

Mags

Because without the condenser,most of the stored energy is dissipated through the arc at the points.

If you replace the points with a FET or transistor,then you will not need the condenser to achieve the same spark burn value.

The length of the spark burn time can be increased by decreasing the spark plug gap,or decreased by increasing the spark plug gap.

It would also be nice to know what the V/PD on those scope shots are--why is there 0 volts across the coil primary when the points are closed?,when it should show supply voltage.

Then there is the question-->do things change when the spark plug(and thus the spark) is subject to the high pressures and gas mixture of the cylinder ?.


Brad
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 01, 2017, 12:07:09 PM
Because without the condenser,most of the stored energy is dissipated through the arc at the points.

If you replace the points with a FET or transistor,then you will not need the condenser to achieve the same spark burn value.

The length of the spark burn time can be increased by decreasing the spark plug gap,or decreased by increasing the spark plug gap.

It would also be nice to know what the V/PD on those scope shots are--why is there 0 volts across the coil primary when the points are closed?,when it should show supply voltage.

Then there is the question-->do things change when the spark plug(and thus the spark) is subject to the high pressures and gas mixture of the cylinder ?.


Brad

I could change the voltage division to see the switching, but Im on the 50v scale as it is. My scope freaked out on one of my previous vids due to over voltage spikes. I hear a relay click in the scope when I go below The scope says max 300v and its over shooting the screen saying upper 450s with the 10k series with 10k resistor voltage divider this time around.

I just picked the largest inductor I have for this, so things might be better or worse with a different inductor value.  But I believe it was a decent demo of the 2 circuits, in my opinion anyway. It helps prove the resonance helps produce a muti spark.  The longer the spark the less multi sparking happens as I believe the ring down cant handle the distance after the first spark discharge at that gap length in the last vid.

Mags

Mags

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 01, 2017, 12:40:28 PM
Came up with a test.. 

Lets see what the primary freq with the cap is when I dont let the spark happen. ;)   The primary is 5.79mh when the sec is open and .9mh when the sec is shorted. Work in the value of the spark resistance and it shows 12.khz on the scope and I calculated 14.17kz (That is the correct freq calculated not he arbitrary 15 I used earlier) with the sec shorted.  So with the sec open, the primary measures 5.79mh and the calculated freq is 5.59khz.  If i make the spark gap unbreakable(to the max air distance) then the primary ring should be closer to 5.59kz than it would be 12khz as seen when the spark is allowed to occur. ;)

This would further prove resonance that we can approximately calculate to be true. Approximately means things affect the outcome like the resistance of the spark changes how heavy the load is on the secondary in order to affect the primary inductance. We do not know the resistance of the spark yet. So shorted sec its 14.17khz and with the spark resistance can change the load and probably give us the 12khz result on the scope. So this should make it a hard argument to say the resonance has nothing to do with anything in the operation of the circuit, let alone deny it even exists or that the secondary doesnt react to the primary induction. lol

Gotta post as is. Im beat. Up all night doing this project. Ill fix things i didnt see now tomorrow.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: citfta on November 01, 2017, 02:05:56 PM
Well, I am about to open a whole can of worms here but I think this needs to be posted.  Technically speaking resonance is not what we are seeing here.  If you look up the term resonance, it is described as a device or circuit that responds to an applied signal or impulse with a positive reaction.

Think of two tuning forks that are both tuned to the same frequency.  When you strike the one and set it to vibrating the other one will also start vibrating.  Of if you tune your radio to a certain frequency it is in resonance with the transmitted signal.  Ham radio operators tune their antennas to be resonant to the applied transmitter signal to make the antennas more efficient.

So what is the proper term for what we are looking at?  I believe we should be calling this ringing at a certain frequency just simple oscillations, not resonance.  There is only one device involved.  There is no second device that is resonant with this device.  This is being kind of nit picky but technically correct.

My problem with MH's posts is that first he insisted there were no oscillations or ringing and then after he posted videos that clearly showed there were, he still denied they were playing a part in the increase in spark over a circuit with no cap.

I do agree the primary is strongly affected by whether there is or is not a spark being produced by the secondary.  This is just the simple action of any transformer that reacts to the change in impedance caused by loading the secondary.

Now Mags other thread about acoustic and other forms of resonance is correctly about resonance.  As I posted in that thread I have even built devices that clearly responded to certain audio frequencies while rejecting other audio frequencies.  Those devices show what resonance really is.

I still stand by my original post about how the ignition circuit works.  The only thing I would add is what has been pointed out by some is that yes the oscillating frequency of the primary is affected by whether there is a spark or not.

Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 01, 2017, 04:51:27 PM
Sorry Cifta.  But if you search LC resonance, this is exactly what this ringing is, resonance.

If you run your wet finger over the top of a crystal wine glass, the tone you hear is due to resonance.

Tap a bell and the tone you hear is due to resonance.

There is no requirement for a resonant receiver in order for it to be called resonance.

Now, do a search on LC resonance.  Do a search just as i have posted here the other day on LCR resonance.

Now refine that search to resonance LC and look for images like the pics in the search below

Then tell me why I cannot call it resonance.

mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Jeg on November 01, 2017, 04:56:55 PM
Hi Mags.
Thanks for the video.
What is cap's capacity?
Looks like switching frequency with cap's charging time plays some role on here. If you are able to use other switching method than a relay, one with a variable frequency capability, then i am pretty sure that efficiency will go higher. The best time is to fire when current (which charges the cap) reaches the zero level.

ps. If timing is right then diode is useless.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 01, 2017, 05:00:40 PM
And Cifta, if your conclusion is that for there to be resonance, there would need to be 2 tuning forks, then does there need to be 2 tune ported speaker enclosures in order to call it resonance? Or can I just build 1 box for a sub in my car and call the gain i get by way of that tuned enclosure an effect of resonance? ;)

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 01, 2017, 05:13:28 PM
The relation between inductive and capacitive reactance at "resonance" demands that the generated wave be sinusoidal, not damped....  A damped wave is a composite wave, consisting of harmonically associated waves of proper amplitude. 
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 01, 2017, 05:14:19 PM
Hi Mags.
Thanks for the video.
What is cap's capacity?
Looks like switching frequency with cap's charging time plays some role on here. If you are able to use other switching method than a relay, one with a variable frequency capability, then i am pretty sure that efficiency will go higher. The best time is to fire when current (which charges the cap) reaches the zero level.

ps. If timing is right then diode is useless.

The diode is just to be sure as I just wanted to make the process work the first time not knowing if the same timing I was using in the standard circuit used for direct comparison purposes was a good match for the same freq switching. Not looking to design it for a specific engine to provide spark, it is just demonstrations of resonance gains compared to no resonance. That has been the point of this thread since i said so in post 1.

Firstly, the efficiency of Teslas circuit far exceeds the standard circuit and very simply by rearranging the circuit slightly and the addition of a large inductor.  I thought it was very cool to show what Tesla was doing with this back then, and then to see they abandoned it for this current sucking standard we have been talking about here in this thread. And it also is about resonance here in this topic.


Tha cap is .14uf. I think it could change things with a different cap value, but again I wanted to demonstrate that it would work here as well as in the standard circuit. Same cap. Same spark coil. Same battery and same switching. Just the addition of the large inductor and the diode..

The standard circuit pulls 78w from the battery when the switch is closed, and the igniter circuit pulls max 3w and change.  Huge efficiency gain by the circuit change alone, let alone still having resonance in the picture.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Jeg on November 01, 2017, 05:30:11 PM

The standard circuit pulls 78w from the battery when the switch is closed, and the igniter circuit pulls max 3w and change.  Huge efficiency gain by the circuit change alone, let alone still having resonance in the picture.

Mags

Nice point Mags. Simple and straight. ;)

Just for the records, with same components you need about 440 hertz of switching frequency. Relay looks like it switches close to 5 hz.

A damped wave is a composite wave, consisting of harmonically associated waves of proper amplitude.

Couldn't be expressed better. thanks
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 01, 2017, 05:54:08 PM


Just for the records, with same components you need about 440 hertz of switching frequency. Relay looks like it switches close to 5 hz.



Well if it were an 8cyl engine.  Idle rpm of 1000 revolutions per minute. Divide by 60 seconds would be 16.6 rotations per second.  Now we have a 4 stroke, so there are only 4 firings per rotation. so 4 times 16 is 66 spark events per second, not 440 as you say.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on November 02, 2017, 12:19:45 AM
The diode is just to be sure as I just wanted to make the process work the first time not knowing if the same timing I was using in the standard circuit used for direct comparison purposes was a good match for the same freq switching. Not looking to design it for a specific engine to provide spark, it is just demonstrations of resonance gains compared to no resonance. That has been the point of this thread since i said so in post 1.

Firstly, the efficiency of Teslas circuit far exceeds the standard circuit and very simply by rearranging the circuit slightly and the addition of a large inductor.  I thought it was very cool to show what Tesla was doing with this back then, and then to see they abandoned it for this current sucking standard we have been talking about here in this thread. And it also is about resonance here in this topic.


Tha cap is .14uf. I think it could change things with a different cap value, but again I wanted to demonstrate that it would work here as well as in the standard circuit. Same cap. Same spark coil. Same battery and same switching. Just the addition of the large inductor and the diode..

The standard circuit pulls 78w from the battery when the switch is closed, and the igniter circuit pulls max 3w and change.  Huge efficiency gain by the circuit change alone, let alone still having resonance in the picture.

Mags

2 things Mag;s

1-how would this Tesla circuit go in the higher frequencies?

2-i think you would be surprised at how little power the old points circuit actually uses at running frequencies,and with the dwell set correctly .

Brad
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 02, 2017, 02:41:09 AM
2 things Mag;s

1-how would this Tesla circuit go in the higher frequencies?

2-i think you would be surprised at how little power the old points circuit actually uses at running frequencies,and with the dwell set correctly .

Brad

hey brad

I dont know really. Gas engines of the time probably didnt have much high rpms like we have in later years. 

And probably at specific rpms the standard can be more eff due to the time it gets for the 5.7mh primary to load up when the contacts are closed.  But it needs to be able to work in the upper end which wouldnt be cruising speeds rpms where the switch on time probably exceeds the time for the primary to reach max currents. We need good operation more in the upper rpms so there is probably enough head room for that..

bah. Im just saying that in the case of the 2 circuits running the same cap, coil and battery, and same switch and timing,and just the addition of the large inductor and diode with a little circuit rearrangement, there was a monster boost in eff. If we were to use the idea for an OU device some how, maybe it would only need to operate at a freq that works best for the project and not have to be able to follow all the criteria to run an engine in a car.  It was all about the topic, resonance. It wasnt about all this.  All this is interesting, but I have other goals with these ideas, otherwise Id be hangin out at garage forums.  It was just an example and has taken up way too much time with too much about a lot of other things that Im not really concerned with to prove anything any further.

I mean we have Carrol disputing that the ring in an lc is not the definition of resonance, Jeg talking about how the switching needs to be 440hz.  Im like oh yeah?  At what rpm and how many cyl engine are you talking about? ??? Heck maybe my circuit is running near a freq that would be during cranking, what? 400, 600rpms? maybe its a 4cyl my freq would be close to under those circumstances.  lol I just liked the fact that we could see the on and off periods of the spark to see the multi spark action in that time frame so Mh could not dispute the fact. If it were just some dc HV stream during the spark period, then there wouldnt be multiple arcs. It would be a snake swinging back and forth as you can see on some yt vids. Nst output for example.

Ugh.  Im tired of it already.  Maybe most everyone could care less about all this. I put a lot of hours in here and the projects. making sure its all good for vids. Pics. Typing day in and day out.

All I wanted beyond the other day was to understand how the cap prevents the switch on spark your second post seemed to imply. But I dont get an answer to that, I just get questions in return.  Not coming down on you, Im just tired now and its all just weighing on me a bit.

Frankly if nobody gets anything from this thread, then this is where we are in this place. Just feel when someone tries to show something that is good, it gets what happened here in this thread. More people in argument than are in agreement on anything. Its like how could i suggest someone come here to show their stuff if they say they have something when within a week or 2 the main subject is lost in the mess of it all.

Tired of it.

Night brad.

mags

Edited the 440hz as I had it as 440khz
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Jeg on November 02, 2017, 02:10:55 PM
Frankly if nobody gets anything from this thread, then this is where we are in this place. Just feel when someone tries to show something that is good, it gets what happened here in this thread. More people in argument than are in agreement on anything.

Hi Mags
If you feel that i disagreed on something, then it is probably the way i am expressing my opinion in a different language than what i use to talk. Sorry for that mate. You do a great job as always.

The 440Hz that i mentioned is just the calculated frequency between your cap and inductor. Nothing more and nothing less. I didn't mention any strokes or revolutions. Please forget what i wrote as my mood is far from disturbing the flow of conversations which take place here.  ;)

Keep it up
Jeg
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 02, 2017, 07:27:46 PM
Hi Mags
If you feel that i disagreed on something, then it is probably the way i am expressing my opinion in a different language than what i use to talk. Sorry for that mate. You do a great job as always.

The 440Hz that i mentioned is just the calculated frequency between your cap and inductor. Nothing more and nothing less. I didn't mention any strokes or revolutions. Please forget what i wrote as my mood is far from disturbing the flow of conversations which take place here.  ;)

Keep it up
Jeg

Hey jeg

So this is where the diode came into play to hold the charge in the cap for discharge.

I believe Tesla sort of shows things in his drawiings as to how big or little a value of a cap in relation to the circuit. In the igniter circuit, the cap drawing seems large as compared to some of his other depictions of caps in other of his circuits. Like the Ozone pat, to me anyway, shows caps that would seem to be large in value also.

But here, again, I wanted to keep everything intact as to what was shown in the standard circuit and just rearrange the circuit just a bit and add the large inductance with diode to get the cap charged for discharge.  Yesterday I was thinking of going larger on the cap to see how the results might change. And I still have it all set up to do so. The end result in my mind would be lower voltage in the cap before discharge but more currents with each oscillation and most likely a hotter and longer spark time.


Anyway, I get where you are coming from now.  But again, it is set up to 'see' the on and off times.

Sorry for any confusion on my part there

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 03, 2017, 09:02:38 AM
Put in a 9.75uf cap that used to have an external resistor that I removed

Changed the relay cap from 1000uf to 220uf to speed up the switching

With the larger cap Im able to eliminate the diode and the switching is fast enough to load the cap in just one direction. Mechanical rectification of the currents from the large inductor to the cap.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 03, 2017, 09:27:21 AM
Ignore this if you want.....


Quote


"If the rate at which the condensers are discharged is the same as that at which they are charged, then, clearly, in the assumed case the condensers do not come into play.  If the rate of discharge be smaller than the rate of charging, then, again, the condensers cannot play an important part.  But if, on the contrary, the rate of discharging is greater than that of charging, then a succession of russes of current is obtained."


End quote.


I am not satisfied that anyone has recognized the significance of this statement, and more importantly its relation to circuits built around the abrupt charging and discharging of a condenser.  From the statement in bold, we are informed of the relation which must be established between capacity and supply. 


As it stands, you all are looking at the wrong make break point with specific regard to the ignitor patent.  (same would be true if the discussion were  about the ozone patent, or any of the patents in that series and the series of patents which follow...)  If activity is incorrect there, it will be incorrect in the secondary.




Regards





Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on November 03, 2017, 11:52:15 AM
 author=Erfinder link=topic=17482.msg512643#msg512643 date=1509697641]
Quote
Ignore this if you want.....




"If the rate at which the condensers are discharged is the same as that at which they are charged, then, clearly, in the assumed case the condensers do not come into play.  If the rate of discharge be smaller than the rate of charging, then, again, the condensers cannot play an important part.  But if, on the contrary, the rate of discharging is greater than that of charging, then a succession of russes of current is obtained."


End quote.


I am not satisfied that anyone has recognized the significance of this statement, and more importantly its relation to circuits built around the abrupt charging and discharging of a condenser.  From the statement in bold, we are informed of the relation which must be established between capacity and supply. 


As it stands, you all are looking at the wrong make break point with specific regard to the ignitor patent.  (same would be true if the discussion were  about the ozone patent, or any of the patents in that series and the series of patents which follow...)  If activity is incorrect there, it will be incorrect in the secondary.



Regards
[/quote]
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 03, 2017, 12:41:13 PM
author=Erfinder link=topic=17482.msg512643#msg512643 date=1509697641]


Regards


you have no idea how grateful I am that you find that quote worthless.....


good luck with that collab you have with russ....  speaking of your collab... that waveform you showed with regards to the ozone circuit (and here again on this thread...) is wrong...but you knew that....  you are half way there when your wave is "perfectly" rectangular....keep at it...you'll get there....
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on November 03, 2017, 02:19:09 PM

.....


good luck with that collab you have with russ....  speaking of your collab... that waveform you showed with regards to the ozone circuit (and here again on this thread...) is wrong...but you knew that....  you are half way there when your wave is "perfectly" rectangular....keep at it...you'll get there....

And yet the system works just as Tesla said it dose--and i have even taken it further than that.

Quote
you have no idea how grateful I am that you find that quote worthless

I find it golden,as it clearly shows how little you know about the simple points ignition system--you got it completely ass about.

Perhaps using your brain before engaging Mr wisdom would have been a good idea  ;)

You seem to have forgotten that the inductor is a current source,and the condenser a current sink.
Maybe have another shot at it  ;)

My endeavour i am about to undertake with Russ,is so as i have some one else with the smarts that can replicate a system i built some years back,that clearly showed an energy gain.

I had the late MarkE do all the math,and we came out 15-18% in front

Unlike your !what ever it is!,this system is simple,easy to build,and cannot give back negative results if built correctly--and i dont mean trying to find some !special! type of TRIAC from the 1930's.

The average back yarder could build this system--even you might be able to Erfinder :D 

There will be no one here that will find fault with it,or be able to argue with the result's.

Oh,the 15 to 18% gain was just for the basic setup--we can go way beyond that  ;)

All those that harp on about drawing in energy from the environment--well now your going to see it happen for real.

You have your self a nice day  :D


Brad

P.S--did you want the budgie ?
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 03, 2017, 02:28:24 PM
And yet the system works just as Tesla said it dose--and i have even taken it further than that.

I find it golden,as it clearly shows how little you know about the simple points ignition system--you got it completely ass about.

Perhaps using your brain before engaging Mr wisdom would have been a good idea  ;)

You seem to have forgotten that the inductor is a current source,and the condenser a current sink.
Maybe have another shot at it  ;)

My endeavour i am about to undertake with Russ,is so as i have some one else with the smarts that can replicate a system i built some years back,that clearly showed an energy gain.

I had the late MarkE do all the math,and we came out 15-18% in front

Unlike your !what ever it is!,this system is simple,easy to build,and cannot give back negative results if built correctly--and i dont mean trying to find some !special! type of TRIAC from the 1930's.

The average back yarder could build this system--even you might be able to Erfinder :D 

There will be no one here that will find fault with it,or be able to argue with the result's.

Oh,the 15 to 18% gain was just for the basic setup--we can go way beyond that  ;)

All those that harp on about drawing in energy from the environment--well now your going to see it happen for real.

You have your self a nice day  :D


Brad

P.S--did you want the budgie ?


What you're doing or have done is immaterial....the wave you demonstrated is wrong....  I haven't been privileged to witness the character of your electrical discharge, but I am positive that it's wrong too...  If the wave is wrong, and the discharge is wrong, you got a farts chance in the wind of demonstrating a true mechanism for gain......
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on November 03, 2017, 03:58:03 PM
 author=Erfinder link=topic=17482.msg512650#msg512650 date=1509715704]


Quote
What you're doing or have done is immaterial....the wave you demonstrated is wrong....

OK,so post the wave form Tesla posted.

Quote
I haven't been privileged to witness the character of your electrical discharge, but I am positive that it's wrong too...

Nor will you.
But seems that there is no need,as your clairvoyant psychic is running high.

Quote
If the wave is wrong, and the discharge is wrong, you got a farts chance in the wind of demonstrating a true mechanism for gain

Well,i guess it must be close enough,as i get a nice pink/purple/blue glow between the discharge plate's,and that wonderful smell of Ozone.

The mechanism for gain has nothing to do with this,or any type of electronic device.
The mechanism for gain has been built before,and is right here on this forum.
As i said,the late MarkE was doing all the calculation's,and confirmed the gain--much to his dislike.
But as the proof was all there,he had no choice but to crunch the numbers .

It's here on this forum--can you find it Erfinder  :D

Iam !hopefully!  joining forces with Russ,so as to have some one else on the other side of the planet,confirm my results,as we know,MarkE is no longer here,and no one else was taking part in the thread at the time.

But this time,it will be built to be looped--so no measurements will be needed.
And this time it will be built twice,at different places on the planet--just to rule out the effects of the barley grass that lies just beyond the black stump round here.  ;)
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 03, 2017, 04:18:32 PM
author=Erfinder link=topic=17482.msg512650#msg512650 date=1509715704]


OK,so post the wave form Tesla posted.


Tesla did not provide a wave....but you should know the wave is rectangular.....perfect rectangle....if you dont have that......keep at it.......

author=Erfinder link=topic=17482.msg512650#msg512650 date=1509715704]
Nor will you.


Something wrong with your memory....  you were shown the wave and the machine which generated it....


[/font] author=Erfinder link=topic=17482.msg512650#msg512650 date=1509715704]
Well,i guess it must be close enough,as i get a nice pink/purple/blue glow between the discharge plate's,and that wonderful smell of Ozone.


ah....I appreciate the description of the discharge.....its location, and for mentioning ozone....unfortunately.........you aren't there yet....  keep at it....
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: penno64 on November 03, 2017, 08:51:21 PM
Hi Steve,

The only device I ever built that changed the output wave from sine to square was romerouk version of the generator.

Did not think much about that but ASSUMED it due to creating (generating) a voltage higher than the input voltage.

The scope would show a nice sine then once approaching the input voltage (12v in my case) and running speed, the output wave would go full square.

Probably nothing to do with what you are discussing but that's the only time I have seen this.

Keep meaning to rebuild this, but life gets in the way.

Regards, Pen
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 04, 2017, 10:39:35 AM
Hi Steve,

The only device I ever built that changed the output wave from sine to square was romerouk version of the generator.

Did not think much about that but ASSUMED it due to creating (generating) a voltage higher than the input voltage.

The scope would show a nice sine then once approaching the input voltage (12v in my case) and running speed, the output wave would go full square.

Probably nothing to do with what you are discussing but that's the only time I have seen this.

Keep meaning to rebuild this, but life gets in the way.

Regards, Pen


superimposition.....integrating the dis-integrated....  that's the path I follow... 


This isn't the thread for discussing this further...
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Jeg on November 04, 2017, 01:54:19 PM

Sorry for any confusion on my part there


No worries mate. Misunderstandings are common in public forums.  :)



As it stands, you all are looking at the wrong make break point with specific regard to the ignitor patent.  (same would be true if the discussion were  about the ozone patent, or any of the patents in that series and the series of patents which follow...)  If activity is incorrect there, it will be incorrect in the secondary.


Gosh I was trying to find the connection between the two patents. I could see what happens at ozone device but not at the igniter. My mistake was that i assumed that igniter's switch completely isolates the primary from the other circuitry. But actually...it should really not. Primary always has to be a part to both charging-discharging actions and so in here... Damn Erfinder! In few posts here and there you revealed what Tesla was really doing. Don't have the words to express my appreciation.

ps. Mags accidentally achieved the right switching method, but until recognized, it can't be improved.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 04, 2017, 02:14:24 PM

Gosh I was trying to find the connection between the two patents. I could see what happens at ozone device but not at the igniter. My mistake was that i assumed that igniter's switch completely isolates the primary from the other circuitry. But actually...it should really not. Primary always has to be a part to both charging-discharging actions and so in here... Damn Erfinder! In few posts here and there you revealed what Tesla was really doing. Don't have the words to express my appreciation.

ps. Mags accidentally achieved the right switching method, but until recognized, it can't be improved.


Cap rate of discharged must be higher than the rate of charge.....  (uh....what....)
Cap must charge through discharge path.... (meaning charging current drives output during charging phase......uh....)
Cap must charge to potential represented by maximum circuit activity in a single transition of the controller ..... open and closed positions represent instances when energy is transferred making them equally important.  (Er....you're not making any sense....)


Tesla was no fool....  some would have you believe that the apparatus for producing ozone was for producing ozone, or that the ignitor patent was for generating a discharge for ICE engines... That's not what these circuits are for!  Follow the energy around the circuit and see for yourself.....  it cannot be denied that one of the more important lessons taught by these two patents is superimposition...


Superimposition of what......and for what purpose...


Regards
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Jeg on November 04, 2017, 02:31:20 PM
This is the current which flows inside my primary and cap during both cycles. (Ozone device). It is without any load connected.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Jeg on November 04, 2017, 05:23:33 PM

Cap rate of discharged must be higher than the rate of charge.....  (uh....what....)
Cap must charge through discharge path.... (meaning charging current drives output during charging phase......uh....)
Cap must charge to potential represented by maximum circuit activity in a single transition of the controller ..... open and closed positions represent instances when energy is transferred making them equally important.  (Er....you're not making any sense....)

I was referring to the kind of the switch that would do the job at the igniter circuit. A mosfet alone for example, doesn't look a good idea because when it opens, it doesn't allow the EMF to be developed the way it needs. That is what I called primary's isolation from the rest of the circuitry. Mag's relay does this because arcs between the conducts. I have to test this flash idea.


Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 04, 2017, 09:10:55 PM
No worries mate. Misunderstandings are common in public forums.  :)


Gosh I was trying to find the connection between the two patents. I could see what happens at ozone device but not at the igniter. My mistake was that i assumed that igniter's switch completely isolates the primary from the other circuitry. But actually...it should really not. Primary always has to be a part to both charging-discharging actions and so in here... Damn Erfinder! In few posts here and there you revealed what Tesla was really doing. Don't have the words to express my appreciation.

ps. Mags accidentally achieved the right switching method, but until recognized, it can't be improved.

Other than the large inductor in place of the motor of the ozone pat circuit, I see the 2 circuits as the same as far as the switch, cap and primary are in relation to the large inductance. Said so for some time now.

The relay switching was the closest I could come to a points contact setup as i could get, without having to have a motor running a distributor with a complete points/condenser for the demonstration.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 04, 2017, 09:19:05 PM
https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/blog/controlling-an-ac-load-with-a-mosfet.518/

Would need mosfets that can handle the voltages.  In my circuit I would need pretty high voltage devices.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: norman6538 on November 04, 2017, 11:25:59 PM
I am working on a way to use the RF created by the spark that you hear in the radio.
I have some tests in mind and will report back.
As I said we did collect power in a coil from the RF created in the spark gap.

I don't quite follow Erfinder's stuff on Tesla yet.

Norman
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 05, 2017, 01:33:30 AM
There is a difference between the Igniter and the Ozone circuit, but Im not sure of the difference in operations may have on the circuit.  So Ill connect it up one way then the other and see. ;)

The only change from Igniter to Ozone is the connection of the large inductor to the primary.  Igniter charges the cap bypassing the primary during the cap charge, and the Ozone circuit the large inductor charges the cap through the primary. So what interactions may occur?

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: forest on November 05, 2017, 08:14:26 AM
Mags
You must find the answer to the question : why Tesla patented so many "circuit breakers" ? What he wanted to accomplish ? The partial answer is in his interview about AC currents of high frequency....


" It will become useless as soon as the inefficient apparatus of the day, with antennae that radiate energy rapidly, [are] replaced by a scientifically designed oscillator which does not give out energy except when it gets up to a tremendous electromagnetic momentum."

[/size]
Now take a look at Kapanadze "aquarium box " devices -the energy gets larger and larger until it is dissipated by spark ;-)  That's what Tito and Erfinder don't want you to tell. Inventors mostly do not show the best way , even Tesla :-( But he told us where to look-  in one of the patent ;-)
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 05, 2017, 10:28:25 AM
Mags
You must find the answer to the question : why Tesla patented so many "circuit breakers" ? What he wanted to accomplish ? The partial answer is in his interview about AC currents of high frequency....


Ok....thats a good question, but it's not "the" question....  The  questions I asked were:  what motivates one to patent the same circuit, what's so important or significant about the circuit.....  how does one get a patent on the exact same circuit?! 


In my opinion, "the" circuit had to be preserved for future generations.  It was the central hub of what would/could become his legacy, assuming future generations could/would comprehend and apply his insights...  His greatest accomplishment in the realm of electrical engineering, which has the potential to bridge electrical and mechanical engineering is embodied in that circuit. 


The perfect switch was discovered by Tesla years before the circuit controller series patents were granted.  The patenting of inferior switching techniques allowed him to present the dream circuit x more times..... You people are still looking for a mechanical solution...  the mechanical make and break are a catalyst.....the real switching is not taking place there......open your minds.....

" It will become useless as soon as the inefficient apparatus of the day, with antennae that radiate energy rapidly, [are] replaced by a scientifically designed oscillator which does not give out energy except when it gets up to a tremendous electromagnetic momentum."

I am certain you don't know what this statement really suggests, tito and kapanadze don't either....






Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Jeg on November 05, 2017, 12:04:38 PM
There is a difference between the Igniter and the Ozone circuit, but Im not sure of the difference in operations may have on the circuit.  So Ill connect it up one way then the other and see. ;)


Yes Mags, this applies also to me as yesterday i made wrong assumptions on the way the switch works. Distorted reality due to lack of experience is a common mistake of mine. I'll setup igniter's circuit today to see what happens. I just can't visualize its operation and how the superimposition happens. 
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Jeg on November 05, 2017, 01:06:27 PM
Superimposition of what......and for what purpose...

Regards

Ok. Let me make a crude try on this. Baby steps...

Increased rate momentarily means an increased flux. Increased flux means a momentarily higher amount of energy storage action in the core space, even if core is just air or any other none isotropic material. Like many tiny capacities between points of the core medium. Someone would say yes but we spend current for this energy storage action. But actually, we spend nothing to increase the rate of current for this very brief moment. It's like we momentarily trap extra charges from core space and utilize them in to our advantage. I think that Tesla used CEMF of the inductor in the most useful and productive way.  So, my take is superimposition of voltage under certain conditions.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: forest on November 05, 2017, 01:18:39 PM
All I know is that any patent after Tesla is using the same technology, just adding new components. Yet they were applied. This is simply because Tesla was temporarily not able to do that using spark gaps and rotary breakers. But you know Erfinder...I know exactly that circuit breaker is not important, there is something else ...and something very stupid  :P  he he . However I'm opposing the statement that Tesla patents for circuit breaker were not useful and used only to perpetuate the same schematic - no, it was used to hide puzzles. Anyway...how about current flow speed ?  :P
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 05, 2017, 01:37:04 PM
Yes Mags, this applies also to me as yesterday i made wrong assumptions on the way the switch works. Distorted reality due to lack of experience is a common mistake of mine. I'll setup igniter's circuit today to see what happens. I just can't visualize its operation and how the superimposition happens.


With regards to the ignitor patent, Mags mentions that the current charging the cap "bypasses" the primary....  that's where Mags ended the comparison....  There's a shit load more to compare....hello!


The two circuits are different in their layout, different in the relations between components, the circuits are different in operation, they are, and this is important so pay attention, different in how they approach and deal with current limiting....  for fuck sake gentlemen, we cannot amplify anything till we stop the circuit from limiting the very thing we want to amplify!


The two patents illustrate circuits using the same components, save one, the motor.  This is an incredibly significant omission, and if you can't see this, good luck with your research.   I keep saying the motor is important, but those with very strong opinions inform you that we need to keep things simple, and by simple they mean "fuck the motor"..... WTF!?!?!? I will say this again, and I will keep saying it, all of this is about the damn MOTOR (technically it's a motor-generator, but you gotta crawl before you walk, and walk before you run...)! 


I am not attacking anyone's views here....nor am I criticizing anyone in particular....
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 05, 2017, 01:43:55 PM
Ok. Let me make a crude try on this. Baby steps...

Increased rate momentarily means an increased flux. Increased flux means a momentarily higher amount of energy storage action in the core space, even if core is just air or any other none isotropic material. Like many tiny capacities between points of the core medium. Someone would say yes but we spend current for this energy storage action. But actually, we spend nothing to increase the rate of current for this very brief moment. It's like we momentarily trap extra charges from core space and utilize them in to our advantage. I think that Tesla used CEMF of the inductor in the most useful and productive way.  So, my take is superimposition of voltage under certain conditions.


Really......please elaborate......
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 05, 2017, 02:05:27 PM
All I know is that any patent after Tesla is using the same technology, just adding new components. Yet they were applied. This is simply because Tesla was temporarily not able to do that using spark gaps and rotary breakers. But you know Erfinder...I know exactly that circuit breaker is not important, there is something else ...and something very stupid  :P  he he . However I'm opposing the statement that Tesla patents for circuit breaker were not useful and used only to perpetuate the same schematic - no, it was used to hide puzzles. Anyway...how about current flow speed ?  :P


Lamps which operated on high frequency, spark gaps, a dynamic variable impedance, situated within magnetic, dielectric, electromagnetic and magneto-dielectric systems...  Designed for several reasons, designed for a purpose, one purpose above all stands out to me....  they were a researcher's tools, instruments designed for navigating uncharged realms.....  being wise, the "inventor" multitasked his tools, designing them in such a way that they could serve a practical purpose for the unlearned, and profane.....  you're not an inventor, you don't think that way...


The layman has been informed that an excited evacuated tube can serve as a source of light...  One skilled in the art knows that when used as the tool it was purposed for, it becomes an instrument through which one gains insight. 
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Jeg on November 05, 2017, 02:54:58 PM
I will keep saying it, all of this is about the damn MOTOR

Hi Erfinder

There is something that bothers me since a lot of time about this motor part. Is there any chance for this motor to work as a current limiter device? I ask this because commutator inserts in current line, small loops, and disengage them very quickly. So the time that these loops are active is independent from any load we attach at the output of the motor. The revolution speed seems to me as a factor of how much current those loops will permit to flow. Even if we ground the output during the half cycle, which means an increase of current, the same time this increment will push the motor for quicker revolutions, which in turn will disengage those loops even quicker. Looks like to me that motor keeps a steady flow independent of the load!   
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 05, 2017, 03:14:55 PM
Hi Erfinder

There is something that bothers me since a lot of time about this motor part. Is there any chance for this motor to work as a current limiter device? I ask this because commutator inserts in current line, small loops, and disengage them very quickly. So the time that these loops are active is independent from any load we attach at the output of the motor. The revolution speed seems to me as a factor of how much current those loops will permit to flow. Even if we ground the output during the half cycle, which means an increase of current, the same time this increment will push the motor for quicker revolutions, which in turn will disengage those loops even quicker. Looks like to me that motor keeps a steady flow independent of the load!


What effect does the CEMF have on the current being supplied to the motor?
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Jeg on November 05, 2017, 03:27:57 PM
Well, we have two motor coils, in a transformer like relation between each other. The way they are connected looks to me that Cemf opposes to the flow of current which comes from the source. ::)...
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 05, 2017, 04:14:06 PM
Well, we have two motor coils, in a transformer like relation between each other. The way they are connected looks to me that Cemf opposes to the flow of current which comes from the source. ::) ...


You answered your own question.....
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Jeg on November 05, 2017, 05:00:36 PM

You answered your own question.....

Thanks a lot for this pushing ;)

There is also something else happening between the motor coils. It took me a while to understand the mechanism of energy storage between the two half's, which gives thicker spikes when current suddenly stops flowing. A great mind called it once as a flux capacitor...
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 05, 2017, 05:11:17 PM
Thanks a lot for this pushing ;)

There is also something else happening between the motor coils. It took me a while to understand the mechanism of energy storage between the two half's, which gives thicker spikes when current suddenly stops flowing. A great mind called it once as a flux capacitor...


Soooo...it's established that CEMF is where we need to focus attention....before we get too excited about something we already knew (CEMF limiting current)....answer me this..... 


How many CEMF production methods are operating in the motor at any given instance? Answer that question and catch your first glimpse of the flux capacitor...
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Jeg on November 05, 2017, 05:34:37 PM

Soooo...it's established that CEMF is where we need to focus attention....before we get too excited about something we already knew (CEMF limiting current)....answer me this..... 


How many CEMF production methods are operating in the motor at any given instance? Answer that question and catch your first glimpse of the flux capacitor...

WOW! I just saw the whole image!!! all this bunch of coil loops do exactly the same as what i described above!!! So the answer is returned with a question. How many loops are conducting in your machine at any given instance???
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: forest on November 05, 2017, 09:50:40 PM
Ok, how is that different from my tip that motor coils are working together to generate more current in "loops"  because when the capacitor is shorted and with Tesla usage of motor coils there are times when inside motor there are closed loops and transformer action from rotor to stator closed loop coils ?
I'm not experienced in motor/generators but that is quite visible. So you say that these additional currents produce more CEMF ? Could you explain why it is important ? I only see it could produce more current in flyback spike when circuit is broken again, but I was unable to confirm that.


I think I should say again - this is only minor effect....  ::)

Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 05, 2017, 10:30:23 PM
It's too early to be looking between the turns..... 


"Inductance is the characteristic of an electrical circuit that makes itself evident by opposing the starting, stopping, or changing of current flow."


Three instances when EMF is induced....  How often does the current start, stop or change in either of the circuits?!?!  What are you doing during these key instances?!  How are you positioned to capitalize on opposition to change, how was Tesla?  How can you expect to understand what is being suggested by the use of the terms "flux capacitor" if your attention isn't focused on the flux!?  Which flux!?  Capacitor?  What capacitor?


@Forest


 its crystal clear you have no idea what I am talking about.. it's all good.... no one does....
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 05, 2017, 10:53:19 PM
It's too early to be looking between the turns..... 


"Inductance is the characteristic of an electrical circuit that makes itself evident by opposing the starting, stopping, or changing of current flow."


Three instances when EMF is induced....  How often does the current start, stop or change in either of the circuits?!?!  What are you doing during these key instances?!  How are you positioned to capitalize on opposition to change, how was Tesla?  How can you expect to understand what is being suggested by the use of the terms "flux capacitor" if your attention isn't focused on the flux!?  Which flux!?  Capacitor?  What capacitor?


@Forest


 its crystal clear you have no idea what I am talking about.. it's all good.... no one does....

Had the spark coil setup like the Ozone circuit where the primary is in series with the cap when the large inductor charges the cap after the switch opens.
If we want the cemf, or even the oscillation currents of the primary to affect the large inductor, then the large inductor would need to be a bifi coil and its capacitance would allow continued oscillation with the large inductor in the loop.  If the large inductor is a standard winding, its inductance would impede the higher freq of the primary and cap.  And if the cap is larger like I think tesla implies, then the bifi capacitance would most likely be of a lower capacitance, and the primary would go into oscillation with the bifi cap, and the large cap would be more of a feed through for the loop.

I tried both the igniter connection of the large inductor to the - of the primary and connected to the + side which would be Ozone circuit.  Scoping the inductor, the actions of the primary dont seem to change things much. So there would have to be another solution in order for the large inductor/motor windings to be influenced electrically by the actions of the primary..

The only one I see is to make the large inductor a bifi coil so its capacitance can interact with the primary actions and currents will now flow in the large inductor that the primary gives.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 06, 2017, 03:18:20 AM
If it is the case as I described above, then other things will have to be done to get it all in sync.

Like the possibility that the cap and primary oscillations may also continue along with the primary and the large inductors capacitance. One wave riding the other. Should it all be tuned so those 2 freq are harmonic. Switching time that maybe opens just after the first resonant wave of the primary and cap reaches its first peak in order to be at a maximum to jolt the large inductor bifi to get things rolling.

Im finding it more likely that the large inductor needs to be bifi in order for the primary currents to affect the large inductor.  Its my birthday.  Been a nice day. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on November 06, 2017, 05:21:49 AM
It's too early to be looking between the turns..... 


"Inductance is the characteristic of an electrical circuit that makes itself evident by opposing the starting, stopping, or changing of current flow."


Three instances when EMF is induced....  How often does the current start, stop or change in either of the circuits?!?!  What are you doing during these key instances?!  How are you positioned to capitalize on opposition to change, how was Tesla?  How can you expect to understand what is being suggested by the use of the terms "flux capacitor" if your attention isn't focused on the flux!?  Which flux!?  Capacitor?  What capacitor?


@Forest


 its crystal clear you have no idea what I am talking about.. it's all good.... no one does....


Thats what you need right there-the flux capacitor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABbmGHGs2C4
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 06, 2017, 05:53:03 AM

Thats what you need right there-the flux capacitor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABbmGHGs2C4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABbmGHGs2C4)

Well lets just call it a large inductor bifi winding capacitance. 

If there can be ozone produced by the large inductor/motor windings, then there has to be a way for currents to flow through those windings for the ozone to be produced as the standard large inductor wont allow Hf HV to flow on its own. But the capacitance of a bifi winding will, even though the inductance of the winding is very high. 


"I have found that in every coil there exists a certain relation between its self-induction and capacity that permits, a current of given frequency and potential to pass through it with no other opposition than that of ohmic resistance, or, in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction.  This is due to the mutual relations existing between the special character of the current and the self-induction and capacity of the coil, the latter quantity being just capable of neutralizing the self-induction for that frequency.  It is well known that the higher the frequency or potential difference of the current the smaller the capacity required to counteract the self-induction; hence, in any coil, however small the capacity, it may be sufficient for the purpose stated if the proper conditions in other respects be secured in the ordinary coils the difference of potential between adjacent turns or spirals is very small, so that while they are in a sense condensers, they possess but very small capacity and the relations between the two quantities, self-induction and capacity, are not such as under any ordinary conditions satisfy the requirements herein contemplated, because the capacity relatively to the self-induction is very small."

Nikola Tesla  Jan 9  1894



Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 06, 2017, 08:17:40 AM
Well lets just call it a large inductor bifi winding capacitance. 


Lets not.....



If there can be ozone produced by the large inductor/motor windings, then there has to be a way for currents to flow through those windings for the ozone to be produced as the standard large inductor wont allow Hf HV to flow on its own. But the capacitance of a bifi winding will, even though the inductance of the winding is very high.


There is no if....  ozone can be produced by the motor windings.  Your ideas regarding bifilar are borrowed, and in case you aren't aware, I have no interest in parasitic capacitance...  your present line of thinking will not help you accomplish what I am suggesting is possible.

"I have found that in every coil there exists a certain relation between its self-induction and capacity that permits, a current of given frequency and potential to pass through it with no other opposition than that of ohmic resistance, or, in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction.  This is due to the mutual relations existing between the special character of the current and the self-induction and capacity of the coil, the latter quantity being just capable of neutralizing the self-induction for that frequency.  It is well known that the higher the frequency or potential difference of the current the smaller the capacity required to counteract the self-induction; hence, in any coil, however small the capacity, it may be sufficient for the purpose stated if the proper conditions in other respects be secured in the ordinary coils the difference of potential between adjacent turns or spirals is very small, so that while they are in a sense condensers, they possess but very small capacity and the relations between the two quantities, self-induction and capacity, are not such as under any ordinary conditions satisfy the requirements herein contemplated, because the capacity relatively to the self-induction is very small."

Nikola Tesla  Jan 9  1894



Mags



If you understand what he saying, you understand me....  I am doing what he did....
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 06, 2017, 08:39:41 AM

Thats what you need right there-the flux capacitor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABbmGHGs2C4


LOL


Nice try.....  but once again you demonstrate a complete and utter lack of both creativity and originality...  What I'm suggesting brad has more in common with what we find in this link....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AtE54HpXBM
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 06, 2017, 08:40:11 AM

Lets not.....

 

There is no if....  ozone can be produced by the motor windings.  Your ideas regarding bifilar are borrowed, and in case you aren't aware, I have no interest in parasitic capacitance...  your present line of thinking will not help you accomplish what I am suggesting is possible.


If you understand what he saying, you understand me....  I am doing what he did....

Well then Ill leave it all to you forest and jeg. Actually I dont know what your suggesting is possible and I am apparently wasting my time.

I dont understand you at all. Thats what I know now.

Mags

Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 06, 2017, 08:45:25 AM
Well then Ill leave it all to you forest and jeg. Actually I dont know what your suggesting is possible and I am apparently wasting my time.

I dont understand you at all. Thats what I know now.

Mags


ok....
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on November 06, 2017, 09:09:52 AM

LOL


Nice try.....  but once again you demonstrate a complete and utter lack of both creativity and originality...  What I'm suggesting brad has more in common with what we find in this link....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AtE54HpXBM

Ah yes--steam engines  ;D

I like steam engines  :D
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on November 06, 2017, 09:13:13 AM
Now this is a real beat frequency--music to my ears.

Build what you like,but nothing sings like the old girls.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQnxv9h0oFw
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 06, 2017, 09:19:52 AM
Now this is a real beat frequency--music to my ears.

Build what you like,but nothing sings like the old girls.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQnxv9h0oFw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQnxv9h0oFw)


With your first post I thought you were just being brad... but with this one it's clear you just don't get it.....my response to your back to the future post went over your head....it's not about steam engines brad...
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 06, 2017, 02:59:48 PM
Quote


"When intense, as they are at present, they produce ozone in great quantity, and also, as Professor Crookes has pointed out, nitrous acidSo quick is the chemical action that if a coil, such as this one, is worked for a very long time it will make the atmosphere of a small room unbearable, for the eyes and throat are attacked. But when moderately produced, the streamers refresh the atmosphere wonderfully, like a thunder-storm, and exercises unquestionably a beneficial effect."


End quote


I am not making this shit up....well....some of it...
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Jeg on November 06, 2017, 08:07:23 PM
 
  How are you positioned to capitalize on opposition to change, how was Tesla? 

If i understand your question, main stream stands in parallel in relation to the flux direction! But again, it is what someone is looking for! Personally i find a great interest on what takes place at a perpendicular direction.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 06, 2017, 11:05:59 PM
Maybe you guys can take this conversation to the Energy Amplification thread. That thread can use another 10 years of not figuring out anything by following clues that will not lead you to your goals. Maybe Tito will come in for some comedy relief.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 06, 2017, 11:22:49 PM
Maybe you guys can take this conversation to the Energy Amplification thread. That thread can use another 10 years of not figuring out anything by following clues that will not lead you to your goals. Maybe Tito will come in for some comedy relief.

Mags


 :P



Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on November 06, 2017, 11:32:44 PM
Maybe you guys can take this conversation to the Energy Amplification thread. That thread can use another 10 years of not figuring out anything by following clues that will not lead you to your goals. Maybe Tito will come in for some comedy relief.

Mags

Too true Mag's
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: forest on November 06, 2017, 11:34:49 PM
I'm don here. Tito was correct. You can create self-sufficient system using Tesla method of conversion.Motor has nothing with that. Erfinder would not tell you, in fact I know he is lurking for somebody to give him the answer ha ha. He is correct with one thing though - you don't need the inductor exactly like the one Tesla put into patents - it's a "distract-or"  and the real one is related to the enterprise Tesla struggle for years (which I pointed too - everything is connected and logical indeed) Again, read the patents "differently", the real answer is in some unnoticed comments...
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on November 06, 2017, 11:35:46 PM

With your first post I thought you were just being brad... but with this one it's clear you just don't get it.....my response to your back to the future post went over your head....it's not about steam engines brad...

I think the back to the future post went over your head Erfinder.
I posted it because i see you as the doc,and one of your followers as McFly  ;D
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 06, 2017, 11:36:58 PM

 :P

Yeah yeah.  Sorry to poop your party.  The best that people get from you is insults for not understanding what you put out here. Someone tries to interpret what you say and they get WTFs in return, as if you believe what your telling is just so simple. Well its not. Hasnt been for a long time from what i get through the latest grape vine.
 :P

How long have you been at this now? Tito says he figured it out from things to posted, yet you deny that he has..  So just from that, I 'interpret' that you know he could not have gotten anything from you that would have any benefit, because you know that nobody could have.

 :P

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 07, 2017, 12:04:38 AM
I think the back to the future post went over your head Erfinder.
I posted it because i see you as the doc,and one of your followers as McFly  ;D


uh....thanks.....
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 07, 2017, 12:09:55 AM
Yeah yeah.  Sorry to poop your party.  The best that people get from you is insults for not understanding what you put out here. Someone tries to interpret what you say and they get WTFs in return, as if you believe what your telling is just so simple. Well its not. Hasnt been for a long time from what i get through the latest grape vine.
 :P 



[/size]How long have you been at this now? Tito says he figured it out from things to posted, yet you deny that he has..  So just from that, I 'interpret' that you know he could not have gotten anything from you that would have any benefit, because you know that nobody could have.

 :P

Mags


it is what it is....


you want me to leave.....don't give me anything to reply to.....
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on November 07, 2017, 01:16:06 AM



it is what it is....


you want me to leave.....don't give me anything to reply to.....

Or we could just remove your comments  :P
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on November 07, 2017, 01:18:13 AM
Yeah yeah.  Sorry to poop your party.  The best that people get from you is insults for not understanding what you put out here. Someone tries to interpret what you say and they get WTFs in return, as if you believe what your telling is just so simple. Well its not. Hasnt been for a long time from what i get through the latest grape vine.
 :P

How long have you been at this now? Tito says he figured it out from things to posted, yet you deny that he has..  So just from that, I 'interpret' that you know he could not have gotten anything from you that would have any benefit, because you know that nobody could have.

 :P

Mags

And one by one,they start to see the light  ;)
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 07, 2017, 01:37:35 AM



it is what it is....


you want me to leave.....don't give me anything to reply to.....

I know.  It is what it is for a long time now..


Trouble is that your replies just end up in distraction rather than actual helpful information, at least on our end of it. Like Jeg saying he has the complete picture now. You and I both know that cannot be true.

Like this from you...

""Inductance is the characteristic of an electrical circuit that makes itself evident by opposing the starting, stopping, or changing of current flow."


Three instances when EMF is induced....  How often does the current start, stop or change in either of the circuits?!?!  What are you doing during these key instances?!  How are you positioned to capitalize on opposition to change, how was Tesla?  How can you expect to understand what is being suggested by the use of the terms "flux capacitor" if your attention isn't focused on the flux!?  Which flux!?  Capacitor?  What capacitor?"

When we had a conversation a while back, you brought up Bedini coils, which are Bifi, some trifi, etc, So I may need to assume that you are using a bifi in your version of the ozone circuit. 

So when you say above, 'What capacitor?"  I have to assume that either the 1 cap that we know about in the ozone circuit has nothing to do with what your trying to describe, OR, that there is another capacitor in the circuit.

Then you say....

"There is no if....  ozone can be produced by the motor windings.  Your ideas regarding bifilar are borrowed, and in case you aren't aware, I have no interest in parasitic capacitance...  your present line of thinking will not help you accomplish what I am suggesting is possible."   

Well we only know that you are saying that ozone is produced in the motor windings, we have no proof that it is true.

And if you are saying that you have no interest in the parasitic capacitance, that would suggest to me that you are still using a bifi coil but not for its capacitance.

So the only other option for the use of the bifi would be to use one of the bifi windings as a control coil in the bifi windings, control as if when we short one winding, it acts like a shorted secondary which would bring the very high inductance value of the coil very low so that it no longer has the cemf effects when the other winding is shorted.

But then again, I can only assume that what I just said may only result in a WTF moment from you.    Lets see....

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on November 07, 2017, 01:51:46 AM
Since the natives are restless, I will do something positive to rally the troops:

The Tesla Ozone Patent in modern technical English:

To whom it may concern:

There is a DC electric motor C that blows air down an enclosed trough.  Opposite sides of the trough have plates P that have an alternating high voltage between them that produces the ozone.

The current for the DC electric motor is routed through a cylindrical commutator E that is on the shaft of the motor.  The commutator and associated brushes form the controller H.  The controller will periodically interrupt the current that flows through the motor coils.  When the current to the motor is interrupted by the controller it is directed into an LC resonator formed by coil M and high-voltage capacitor L.  Coil M also forms the primary of a transformer, the secondary of the transformer is coil N.

When the controller interrupts the current to the motor, the motor coils discharge their current through the coil N of the LC resonator and charge up capacitor L to a high voltage.  A short time later the controller disconnects motor's coils leaving the capacitor charged.  A short time after that the controller connects the capacitor to the coil M and there is an LC resonant ring down.  Coil M couples to the secondary coil N which amplifies the AC voltage across coil M.  The ends of coil N connect to the plates P resulting in a very high voltage alternating potential across the plates.  This very high voltage across the plates P produces ozone as the air starts to conduct current.  This will drain energy out of the LC resonator.  A fan is connected to the motor to blow air through the enclosed trough.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on November 07, 2017, 02:19:21 AM
Since the natives are restless, I will do something positive to rally the troops:

The Tesla Ozone Patent in modern technical English:

To whom it may concern:

There is a DC electric motor C that blows air down an enclosed trough.  Opposite sides of the trough have plates P that have an alternating high voltage between them that produces the ozone.

The current for the DC electric motor is routed through a cylindrical commutator E that is on the shaft of the motor.  The commutator and associated brushes form the controller H.  The controller will periodically interrupt the current that flows through the motor coils.  When the current to the motor is interrupted by the controller it is directed into an LC resonator formed by coil M and high-voltage capacitor L.  Coil M also forms the primary of a transformer, the secondary of the transformer is coil N.

When the controller interrupts the current to the motor, the motor coils discharge their current through the coil N of the LC resonator and charge up capacitor L to a high voltage.  A short time later the controller disconnects motor's coils leaving the capacitor charged.  A short time after that the controller connects the capacitor to the coil M and there is an LC resonant ring down.  Coil M couples to the secondary coil N which amplifies the AC voltage across coil M.  The ends of coil N connect to the plates P resulting in a very high voltage alternating potential across the plates.  This very high voltage across the plates P produces ozone as the air starts to conduct current.  This will drain energy out of the LC resonator.  A fan is connected to the motor to blow air through the enclosed trough.

Spot on MH.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 07, 2017, 02:20:40 AM
Since the natives are restless, I will do something positive to rally the troops:

The Tesla Ozone Patent in modern technical English:

To whom it may concern:

There is a DC electric motor C that blows air down an enclosed trough.  Opposite sides of the trough have plates P that have an alternating high voltage between them that produces the ozone.

The current for the DC electric motor is routed through a cylindrical commutator E that is on the shaft of the motor.  The commutator and associated brushes form the controller H.  The controller will periodically interrupt the current that flows through the motor coils.  When the current to the motor is interrupted by the controller it is directed into an LC resonator formed by coil M and high-voltage capacitor L.  Coil M also forms the primary of a transformer, the secondary of the transformer is coil N.

When the controller interrupts the current to the motor, the motor coils discharge their current through the coil N of the LC resonator and charge up capacitor L to a high voltage.  A short time later the controller disconnects motor's coils leaving the capacitor charged.  A short time after that the controller connects the capacitor to the coil M and there is an LC resonant ring down.  Coil M couples to the secondary coil N which amplifies the AC voltage across coil M.  The ends of coil N connect to the plates P resulting in a very high voltage alternating potential across the plates.  This very high voltage across the plates P produces ozone as the air starts to conduct current.  This will drain energy out of the LC resonator.  A fan is connected to the motor to blow air through the enclosed trough.


"When the controller interrupts the current to the motor, the motor coils discharge their current through the coil N of the LC resonator and charge up capacitor L to a high voltage.  A short time later the controller disconnects motor's coils leaving the capacitor charged.  A short time after that the controller connects the capacitor to the coil M and there is an LC resonant ring down."

That part is not correct.

There is no short times of disconnection of the motor to the input, etc.  When the switch is closed the input powers the motor directly, and when the switch opens, the motor windings are still connected to the input only it now has the cap and primary in series loop with the motor and the input during the cap charge time. Then the same switch closes and the input is again direct to the motor windings AND the same switch connects the cap across the primary, repeat.

You should go over the patent better to understand where you are not correct here.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on November 07, 2017, 05:26:32 AM
You could very well be be right but I gave a bare-bones description and didn't really discuss the motor connections through the whole cycle and I focused on the ozone generation.

Since the circuit is so simple and the principles of operation are so simple if somebody really wanted to they could draw up a proper schematic and add to my text description to make it more complete.  Since it is not easy to describe how the commutator/controller works on the schematic, the full description of the circuit could be fleshed out with a timing diagram that describes the operation of the circuit through a full 360 degree rotation at the operating RPM.

Here is what could be put on the timing diagram:

1.  The motor brush contact ON/OFF switching function
2.  The current draw from the DC source  (this is also the instantaneous power consumption)
3.  The torque pulses produced by the motor
4.  The voltage across the LC resonator
5.  The current through the LC resonator
6.  The instantaneous energy level in the LC resonator
7.  The voltage across the secondary
8.  The current through the secondary (current flow yields ozone production)
9.  The instantaneous power output from the secondary (which produces ozone)
10.  The commutator/controller ON/OFF switching function (annotated with arrows to other traces showing how a switching event initiates or ends an event on another channel)
11.  A possible second (?) commutator ON/OF switching function if required

And for the hard-core people focused on ENERGY:

12.  The accumulated energy drawn by the circuit through one full rotation (i.e.; the integral of the instantaneous power consumption)
13.  The accumulated energy dissipated by the circuit through one full rotation (l.e.; the integral of the instantaneous power dissipation at all points in the circuit and the power output )

If somebody did that then the Tesla ozone patent would be completely explained and there would be no ambiguity about how it works and there would be no more misconceptions and myths associated with it.  Do that and then all of the business about "Tesla hiding something in the patent" will end.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 07, 2017, 06:29:39 AM
Ok. Im not going to try and say whats wrong and whats right about your post.  But in No. 1, the brushes overlap for the motor operation. Unless you think there are some spikes there that affect the operations of the circuit as a whole, the motor should be on its own in that respect. Dont ya think? Tesla only speaks of the (E) motor commutator 1 time to show current paths in the circuit....


" That is to say, the coils of the field and armature may be in series or derivation or wholly independent, and either or both are connected up in the circuit. In the present instance one terminal, as B, is connected to one of the binding posts, from which the circuit is led through one field-coil, D, the brushes and commutator E, the other field-coil, F, and thence to a brush G, which rests upon a circuit-controller H, consisting in general of a conducting disk or cylinder with insulating sections in its periphery."

When I was messing with the igniter circuit, I have it down to where when the switch opens, you can see the cap voltage rise and the same rise across the large inductor. There may be some phase difference due to the primary in the loop, but basically I can close the switch in time with the cap peak and discharge. Now what else I have seen is, if I stretch out the switch open time, I can see the cap voltage rise to peak and then fall, sending current back through the large inductance, also back through the battery and then the cap voltage peaks again in the negative and then the switch closes and I get a very good spark then also. 

So if the current through the large inductor is max .28a, and we dont close the switch till the cap does this almost full reversal with the large inductor, then we have sent some back to the battery already before we dump the cap into the primary. Will have to be set up for these input power measurements to see what we actually used there and compare.  But the savings due to the large inductor igniter circuit is huge compared to the standard conventional circuit, and here we may have saved even more in the igniter circuit by allowing the cap and large inductor oscillate just 3/4  of a cycle instead of just 1/4 cycle before cap discharge into the primary and have sent back some to the battery during operation cycles.

So far that is the best I can say about this circuit thus far. I hope there is more. But we will have to figure that out for ourselves here.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 07, 2017, 07:50:54 AM
Or we could just remove your comments  :P




Curious what your excuse would be..... :-*
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 07, 2017, 08:15:20 AM



Curious what your excuse would be..... :-*

Was a little out of it earlier and was just a bit off in my replies. Your posts wont be deleted.

Off and on, when work is not in the way I try to delve back into all this stuff.  Got a lot of hours in it all again and i just hope for good things and I end up in threads where I spend a lot of the free time arguing, and balh blah..   

So I would appreciate your help here. But its hard to gain a focus on the whole of what your describing. More like what we get from it is still off in the distance to figure it out.  I mean we have talked about a lot here and apparently your circuit is somewhat different.

Anyway, didnt really mean what I said earlier.  Im getting busy here with work again. Put the setup on the shelf for now. Spent yesterday with it observing timing like I said earlier. Whether it is anything good or not, I have a better feel for some things that are going on.

Watching Shallow Hall.   Great movie.  Hadnt seen it in a long time.  Putting me in a better mood.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 07, 2017, 08:32:35 AM
I know.  It is what it is for a long time now..


I don't see the problem...  you are an intelligent capable individual....  I only ask folk to consider what I say, not buy stock.  I offer an alternative to the commonly accepted.  I cannot make you understand, and no I will not provide step by step instruction to get you where I am.  Effort on your part is required, if you aren't interested, say so, I wont loose any sleep, but you have to ask yourself, are you missing out on an opprotunity....(note the lack of question mark...)

Trouble is that your replies just end up in distraction rather than actual helpful information, at least on our end of it. Like Jeg saying he has the complete picture now. You and I both know that cannot be true.


Helpful information....  what do you consider helpful information.....(not a question, but I am interested in what you will have to say)  Jeg sees what he sees, what he sees or does not see should be of no concern to you.  What do you see, you'll probably say you see jack shit....  I am cool with this, thing is, what motivates him to see what he considers as the whole picture, and you nothing?  I am correct on many fronts...some of those whom you whisper with know this...  like you, they read many of my posts and are overcome with that feeling one gets when the statements make no sense.... but they know or at the very least, feel I am right...I doubt they will ever admit this.  The problem many have with me is that I don't give you enough information to replicate......  why should I.....

Like this from you...

""Inductance is the characteristic of an electrical circuit that makes itself evident by opposing the starting, stopping, or changing of current flow."


quote is straight from the textbook..... you knew that right.....


Three instances when EMF is induced....  How often does the current start, stop or change in either of the circuits?!?!  What are you doing during these key instances?!  How are you positioned to capitalize on opposition to change, how was Tesla?  How can you expect to understand what is being suggested by the use of the terms "flux capacitor" if your attention isn't focused on the flux!?  Which flux!?  Capacitor?  What capacitor?"


When we had a conversation a while back, you brought up Bedini coils, which are Bifi, some trifi, etc, So I may need to assume that you are using a bifi in your version of the ozone circuit. 

So when you say above, 'What capacitor?"  I have to assume that either the 1 cap that we know about in the ozone circuit has nothing to do with what your trying to describe, OR, that there is another capacitor in the circuit.


Then you say....

"There is no if....  ozone can be produced by the motor windings.  Your ideas regarding bifilar are borrowed, and in case you aren't aware, I have no interest in parasitic capacitance...  your present line of thinking will not help you accomplish what I am suggesting is possible."   

Well we only know that you are saying that ozone is produced in the motor windings, we have no proof that it is true.

And if you are saying that you have no interest in the parasitic capacitance, that would suggest to me that you are still using a bifi coil but not for its capacitance.

So the only other option for the use of the bifi would be to use one of the bifi windings as a control coil in the bifi windings, control as if when we short one winding, it acts like a shorted secondary which would bring the very high inductance value of the coil very low so that it no longer has the cemf effects when the other winding is shorted.

But then again, I can only assume that what I just said may only result in a WTF moment from you.    Lets see....

Mags


I am not going to get into a pissing contest with you....  I need you to get out of that box, which even as we speak is closing on this thread.....once again.... think..... formulate a question based on your understanding of the "rubbish" I have presented, then ask your question.  I have given you so much "info", maybe too much info...  it's unfortunate that you cannot appreciate it.   


You got questions..ask, but make sure they're yours and not someone else's..I can tell the difference...
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 07, 2017, 08:54:50 AM
Was a little out of it earlier and was just a bit off in my replies. Your posts wont be deleted.


No harm no foul Mags.....  I have no problem with my posts being deleted....would be a sign of the times.... 

Off and on, when work is not in the way I try to delve back into all this stuff.  Got a lot of hours in it all again and i just hope for good things and I end up in threads where I spend a lot of the free time arguing, and balh blah.. 


You got a lot of hours in....  I have years in (not that it matters....just saying), hoping for good things, and end up in threads where I am told that I am not providing any helpful information....  such is life....

So I would appreciate your help here. But its hard to gain a focus on the whole of what your describing. More like what we get from it is still off in the distance to figure it out.  I mean we have talked about a lot here and apparently your circuit is somewhat different.


instead of trying to compare what "could" be on my bench and how it compares to what you have taken from the "patents", wouldn't it make more sense to focus on the patents and the statements I have made regarding them?  The way I see it you have two options, argueing with folk who want you to see things the way they were trained to see things, or see things the way you want.  Confidence shields me from them.

Anyway, didnt really mean what I said earlier.  Im getting busy here with work again. Put the setup on the shelf for now. Spent yesterday with it observing timing like I said earlier. Whether it is anything good or not, I have a better feel for some things that are going on.

Watching Shallow Hall.   Great movie.  Hadnt seen it in a long time.  Putting me in a better mood.

Mags


No love lost Mags....we are in the jungle...fighting for our individual and collective visions of the future.




Regards
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 07, 2017, 09:33:30 AM
Ok. Cool.

Couple questions.

If someone here does happen to get it, what would you like to see in all that? Would you like someone to finally get it? Would you like it if they tried to show everyone freely?

Just wonder.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 07, 2017, 09:53:32 AM
Ok. Cool.

Couple questions.

If someone here does happen to get it, what would you like to see in all that?



thank you would be a fun place to start....


Would you like someone to finally get it?


would be interesting if someone finally got it....yeah...


Would you like it if they tried to show everyone freely?

Just wonder.

Mags


get it first.....
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: forest on November 07, 2017, 09:55:35 AM
Here is the answer:  https://teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla/patents/us-patent-568178-method-regulating-apparatus-producing-electric-currents-high
You will know  8)
Once upon a time my teacher has given me a riddle : you have two metalic rods: one is the magnet and one is iron - you cannot differentiate among those by looking at them (they are identical in form and look) - you have no tools or apparatus to check magnetic field - you have only those two rods.
Find a method how to judge which one is the magnet.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 07, 2017, 10:13:26 AM


thank you would be a fun place to start....


would be interesting if someone finally got it....yeah...


get it first.....

Well I do say thanks for bringing a lot of interesting ideas to the table. Ya know, Im slow. It takes me a while to get things down. Like I need to read things more than once, or watch a movie more than 5 times to seem like I got it all together as to what exactly happened. Like people say they always notice new things the second time watching, well I notice new things of importance to the story seemingly every time I watch it. But once I know it I know a lot.  Some people pick things up fast. Sometimes i just get frustrated with myself. Ive had a lot of ups and downs here.  Lately  with the resonance Im feeling up. But there is times a battle to keep feeling up. then the subject becomes far from focus.  I dunno.

Anyway, Ill need to jump back and go over the stuff youve said and see what comes of it.

Mags

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 07, 2017, 11:36:56 AM
Was going to say this earlier but was distracted..   After a week of messing with the spark coil circuits, the smell of ozone from the sparks was definitely there. But I still seem to smell it like when I go home, or at the grocery store. Does it stick to your clothes? Or have I had too much over the past week?

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 07, 2017, 11:45:33 AM
Well I do say thanks for bringing a lot of interesting ideas to the table. Ya know, Im slow. It takes me a while to get things down. Like I need to read things more than once, or watch a movie more than 5 times to seem like I got it all together as to what exactly happened. Like people say they always notice new things the second time watching, well I notice new things of importance to the story seemingly every time I watch it. But once I know it I know a lot.  Some people pick things up fast. Sometimes i just get frustrated with myself. Ive had a lot of ups and downs here.  Lately  with the resonance Im feeling up. But there is times a battle to keep feeling up. then the subject becomes far from focus.  I dunno.

Anyway, Ill need to jump back and go over the stuff youve said and see what comes of it.

Mags

Mags


All I'll say here is the collectively accepted view on resonance is severely limited.....  where we want to end up, there is no value in isolating the one from the many.... 


Contemplate how to produce ozone with no spark, no arcs nor glow discharge.........



Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 07, 2017, 11:48:42 AM
Was going to say this earlier but was distracted..   After a week of messing with the spark coil circuits, the smell of ozone from the sparks was definitely there. But I still seem to smell it like when I go home, or at the grocery store. Does it stick to your clothes? Or have I had too much over the past week?

Mags


it's not just ozone being produced, not in my machines at least....  I run my large machine for 2min, my room reeks of ozone and potentially nitrogen for three days.....  if the machine runs for longer than 5min, I cannot enter the room for a day....
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 07, 2017, 11:56:59 AM

All I'll say here is the collectively accepted view on resonance is severely limited.....  where we want to end up, there is no value in isolating the one from the many.... 


Contemplate how to produce ozone with no spark, no arcs nor glow discharge.........

Well if your talking about more than one resonance helping to give a gain, Im seeing it in some speaker boxes. The dual chamber reflex is tuned (in my case) 25hz and 50hz and the difference in output at 25hz in that box is greater than a normal ported box of the same size only tuned to 25hz. A 4th order and especially 6th order bandpass can be tuned where both resonant freq can be brought so close that the output at that freq is just stupid loud. All using the same input level for each case.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 07, 2017, 12:16:27 PM
Well if your talking about more than one resonance helping to give a gain, Im seeing it in some speaker boxes. The dual chamber reflex is tuned (in my case) 25hz and 50hz and the difference in output at 25hz in that box is greater than a normal ported box of the same size only tuned to 25hz. A 4th order and especially 6th order bandpass can be tuned where both resonant freq can be brought so close that the output at that freq is just stupid loud. All using the same input level for each case.

Mags


what i'm saying mags is that the accepted view be it with the boxes, or electrical circuits, folk are only concerned with a single frequency....  look at nature man, please!  we observe gain as accumulation over time (what is time to nature)....  with specific emphasis on superimposition onto the fundamental... like building a seashell..... try to think of resonance in "chords" rather than single frequencies...


folk don't understand what I suggest....but they don't really try either....  write it all off if you want, but at the end of the day...  you have claims of 18 percent gain from one, whatever gains you yourself see in your endeavours, or nature's method which is the one I am chasing....  I am not intersted in 18 percent or whatever it would be when scaled up...  not the least bit curious about what you got....  Nature is in a class by itself....  thousands of generations in a single seed...show me you comprehend how it accomplishes that task, and I will follow you anywhere!
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on November 07, 2017, 12:33:50 PM

what i'm saying mags is that the accepted view be it with the boxes, or electrical circuits, folk are only concerned with a single frequency....  look at nature man, please!  we observe gain as accumulation over time (what is time to nature)....  with specific emphasis on superimposition onto the fundamental... like building a seashell..... try to think of resonance in "chords" rather than single frequencies...


folk don't understand what I suggest....but they don't really try either....  write it all off if you want, but at the end of the day...  you have claims of 18 percent gain from one, whatever gains you yourself see in your endeavours, or nature's method which is the one I am chasing....  I am not intersted in 18 percent or whatever it would be when scaled up...  not the least bit curious about what you got....  Nature is in a class by itself....  thousands of generations in a single seed...show me you comprehend how it accomplishes that task, and I will follow you anywhere!

Apparently some one forgot about the big fire in the sky,which is where all of nature gets it's energy from  ::)
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: profitis on November 07, 2017, 12:54:32 PM
Sucks its energy from
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 07, 2017, 01:05:09 PM

what i'm saying mags is that the accepted view be it with the boxes, or electrical circuits, folk are only concerned with a single frequency....  look at nature man, please!  we observe gain as accumulation over time (what is time to nature)....  with specific emphasis on superimposition onto the fundamental... like building a seashell..... try to think of resonance in "chords" rather than single frequencies...


folk don't understand what I suggest....but they don't really try either....  write it all off if you want, but at the end of the day...  you have claims of 18 percent gain from one, whatever gains you yourself see in your endeavours, or nature's method which is the one I am chasing....  I am not intersted in 18 percent or whatever it would be when scaled up...  not the least bit curious about what you got....  Nature is in a class by itself....  thousands of generations in a single seed...show me you comprehend how it accomplishes that task, and I will follow you anywhere!

Well Im on the same path of more than 1 resonance since before this thread. Ive already laid it out in the speaker thread.  And the gains Im seeing are not just 18%.  Whether the outcome yet is not overunity, from the original efficiency of the speaker itself, Im seing hundreds of percent in eff gains. There are already speakers that are 100% eff, just they are costly. So add the resonance gains to that and we are 100s of % overunity.

But you seem to be on the end of it that I wished to be a goal of mine once I figured out the circuit analogy of the speaker boxs.  But you are apparently there already.

Its all in that thread. Not making it up. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 07, 2017, 01:21:23 PM
Well Im on the same path of more than 1 resonance since before this thread. Ive already laid it out in the speaker thread.  And the gains Im seeing are not just 18%.  Whether the outcome yet is not overunity, from the original efficiency of the speaker itself, Im seing hundreds of percent in eff gains. There are already speakers that are 100% eff, just they are costly. So add the resonance gains to that and we are 100s of % overunity.

But you seem to be on the end of it that I wished to be a goal of mine once I figured out the circuit analogy of the speaker boxs.  But you are apparently there already.

Its all in that thread. Not making it up. ;)

Mags


 ;)  gotcha
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 07, 2017, 01:44:22 PM
There is a box I want to try soon that has a 3rd tuned chamber that is a separate enclosure with just 1 port into another ported chamber. This one is new to me this year. Im hoping on it adding gain also. Ill be making 4 boxes for comparison. 1 sealed, 1 ported, 1 dual chamber and the forth a ported with the extra ported chamber.

But I think this is good. Now that I know that your doing the same but with circuitry, this will be a more interesting venture to add other examples for more understanding.


Well, It was a productive talk for me. Thanks

Been finishing some vape hukah handles last night and now for an 8hr shift.  Then sleeps.

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 07, 2017, 04:25:28 PM
There is a box I want to try soon that has a 3rd tuned chamber that is a separate enclosure with just 1 port into another ported chamber. This one is new to me this year. Im hoping on it adding gain also. Ill be making 4 boxes for comparison. 1 sealed, 1 ported, 1 dual chamber and the forth a ported with the extra ported chamber.

But I think this is good. Now that I know that your doing the same but with circuitry, this will be a more interesting venture to add other examples for more understanding.


Well, It was a productive talk for me. Thanks

Been finishing some vape hukah handles last night and now for an 8hr shift.  Then sleeps.

Mags


Mags,


I am not talking about three sine waves.....I know I used the word chords, and I am assuming you drew your conclusion that we were on the same page form that...we aren't....  think about the idea I presented regarding the production of a perfect square (more accurate would be "rectangular") wave...  You cannot build a perfect square with three superimposed sines, Fourier informs us that we need an infinite series of sines with very specific relations to one another....  You cannot engineer these relations......  My view on resonance far removed from anything being discussed anywhere...  I am willing to help you understand my perspective, but you got to shed some baggage first....




Regards
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Jeg on November 07, 2017, 06:36:05 PM
What is wrong with you people. Supposed that this is a hobby which gives you pleasure!!!
Tinman :D You know that you are also erfinder's follower...don't you??? Each time he participates to a thread you are always there. You just haven't realize it yet.. ;D

guys..."...currents of a special character..." Have you ever noticed that Tesla's description??? Does that mean something to anyone?
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 07, 2017, 07:30:02 PM
What is wrong with you people. Supposed that this is a hobby which gives you pleasure!!!
Tinman :D You know that you are also erfinder's follower...don't you??? Each time he participates to a thread you are always there. You just haven't realize it yet.. ;D

guys..."...currents of a special character..." Have you ever noticed that Tesla's description??? Does that mean something to anyone?


I have asked this question before, referencing Tesla....  got a lot of cricket (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd0fBXwDBmo) noise for my troubles..  What do you think it means?
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Jeg on November 07, 2017, 08:21:06 PM
My take on this is that he speaks about displacement current. When a voltage potential difference between two metals changes in time,  an accompanied "special" current manifests.

Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on November 07, 2017, 11:56:58 PM
What is wrong with you people. Supposed that this is a hobby which gives you pleasure!!!
Tinman :D You know that you are also erfinder's follower...don't you??? Each time he participates to a thread you are always there. You just haven't realize it yet.. ;D



Perhaps you should go back and read the thread again--see who was participating in this thread first,and then get back to me  ::)

Quote
guys..."...currents of a special character..." Have you ever noticed that Tesla's description??? Does that mean something to anyone?

Yes
It means that you dont know that it is the electric field that gives rise to an EMF,and not the magnetic field.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 08, 2017, 09:10:35 AM
My take on this is that he speaks about displacement current. When a voltage potential difference between two metals changes in time,  an accompanied "special" current manifests.


It's my opinion that Tesla informed us what this "current of special character" was.....  he was very specific....


@jeg


we were informed to take this discussion to the energy amplification thread....we should respect Mag's wishes...
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Jeg on November 08, 2017, 09:11:47 AM
Perhaps you should go back and read the thread again--see who was participating in this thread first,and then get back to me  ::)

AAhh this bad boy!!! :D :D

Yes
It means that you dont know that it is the electric field that gives rise to an EMF,and not the magnetic field.

Thanks Tinman. Even i didn't speak about emf
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 08, 2017, 09:23:55 AM

It's my opinion that Tesla informed us what this "current of special character" was.....  he was very specific....


@jeg


we were informed to take this discussion to the energy amplification thread....we should respect Mag's wishes...

It can stay here.  The initial discussion is over and this seems to be a continuance of resonance ideas. 

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 08, 2017, 10:25:48 AM
It can stay here.  The initial discussion is over and this seems to be a continuance of resonance ideas. 

Mags


cool.... ;)
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: web000x on November 08, 2017, 01:06:43 PM
[/font]superimposition.....integrating the dis-integrated....  that's the path I follow...  This isn't the thread for discussing this further...
[/font]


Is there an appropriate thread that you’d like to elaborate further on this rectangular wave concept?  I am very curious...


Dave
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 08, 2017, 07:19:22 PM



Is there an appropriate thread that you’d like to elaborate further on this rectangular wave concept?  I am very curious...


Dave


check your pm


Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on November 09, 2017, 04:45:01 AM


Thanks Tinman. Even i didn't speak about emf

That is my point.

You spoke about displacement current,and yet you cant seem to associate it with the electric field.

What is !displacement! current,and what gives rise to it?.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Jeg on November 09, 2017, 10:13:27 AM
That is my point.

You spoke about displacement current,and yet you cant seem to associate it with the electric field.

What is !displacement! current,and what gives rise to it?.

That is the Tinman i used to know.. ;)

When i mentioned magnetic field i was thinking about the flux which is moving in a perpendicular manner to displacement direction. The flux which rotates over the capacitor's plates. Then i changed my statement by writing the cause which is the voltage change across the cap as you say. If you go back you will see it as i guess you missed that statement. But again, this was only an assumption of mine about what makes them so special. But after some digestion of what has been said in this thread, seems  that "special currents are special because they carry an almost infinite number of harmonics around the fundamendal. What i miss is the mechanism behind this synthesis which is the responsible for the energy amplification effect.
Thanks for the possitive contribution.


Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on November 09, 2017, 10:59:58 AM
That is the Tinman i used to know.. ;)

When i mentioned magnetic field i was thinking about the flux which is moving in a perpendicular manner to displacement direction. The flux which rotates over the capacitor's plates. Then i changed my statement by writing the cause which is the voltage change across the cap as you say. If you go back you will see it as i guess you missed that statement. But again, this was only an assumption of mine about what makes them so special. But after some digestion of what has been said in this thread, seems  that "special currents are special because they carry an almost infinite number of harmonics around the fundamendal. What i miss is the mechanism behind this synthesis which is the responsible for the energy amplification effect.
Thanks for the possitive contribution.

Lets just slow down there Jeg,as we are yet to see any proof of energy amplification-->and in no way,shape,or form,is Erfinder's mumbo jumbo any proof of any sort of energy amplification.

Lets look at it this way
There have been !how many! people working on Tesla's patents,for !how many! years now,and with equipment and components that far exceed anything Tesla had to work with,and yet,to date,not one device shown to amplify energy--no OU seen anywhere.

There are those that keep on insisting that Tesla had hidden far more than he gave,or made things he did not actually make--like OU devices.

There are those that claim to understand some form of hidden meanings behind Tesla's work,and writings-->they are the very same people that will show or tell you nothing,but more so keep stringing you along,with endless/senseless babble--sound like some one you know?.

Did the thought ever cross your mind that Tesla's Ozone device is just that--an Ozone producing machine.

An easy test

If you think some one knows what there talking about,and has the answers to all these mythical Tesla free energy machines--just ask them for proof--a video,or even a schematic to said OU device.
Ask them for P/in and P/out measurements--see what happens  ;D

What im saying is this-->
You are a member of a forum called OverUinty dot com
We are here in search of,and research toward OU devices,and so,if you cannot provide the above,you clearly do not belong here.


Brad
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 09, 2017, 12:03:41 PM
Lets just slow down there Jeg,as we are yet to see any proof of energy amplification-->and in no way,shape,or form,is Erfinder's mumbo jumbo any proof of any sort of energy amplification.

How about you demonstrate how my "mumbo jumbo" isn't in any way, shape or form proof of energy amplification..... thats right, you cant..... I didn't give you enough to copy and paste.....pathetic...

Lets look at it this way
There have been !how many! people working on Tesla's patents,for !how many! years now,and with equipment and components that far exceed anything Tesla had to work with,and yet,to date,not one device shown to amplify energy--no OU seen anywhere.


and.....

There are those that keep on insisting that Tesla had hidden far more than he gave,or made things he did not actually make--like OU devices.


and we, I, will continue insisting that Tesla hid more than he gave, and suggest that he made things that you lack the ability to comprehend?  The ignorant are motivated by dreams of OU.....

There are those that claim to understand some form of hidden meanings behind Tesla's work,and writings-->they are the very same people that will show or tell you nothing,but more so keep stringing you along,with endless/senseless babble--sound like some one you know?.

yep...I claim to understand something you don't about Tesla's work and writings....  guilty...I tell you nothing, I show you nothing......   :'(  me a river....


Did the thought ever cross your mind that Tesla's Ozone device is just that--an Ozone producing machine.


yep...  thankfully I am not you and can see more than just an ozone producing machine....

An easy test

If you think some one knows what there talking about,and has the answers to all these mythical Tesla free energy machines--just ask them for proof--a video,or even a schematic to said OU device.
Ask them for P/in and P/out measurements--see what happens  ;D


when this info is provided....what usually happens is you show up, and perform a piss poor replication, we then watch in disgust how you systematically infect and rot the concept from the inside out, after this mind screw..... those who stuck around to watch you do your worst walk away from the discussion and never look back, you were schooled well...  you have a history, and a trail of dead ends....  You have the balls to say I string people along.... how many epic fails have you suckered your following into replicating.... not a single one of those projects was ever brought to completion.....  how many times have you failed the community, and finially failed yourself..... 



What im saying is this-->
You are a member of a forum called OverUinty dot com
We are here in search of,and research toward OU devices,and so,if you cannot provide the above,you clearly do not belong here.


Brad


Over unity....  it's a bullshit name, especially since no one has ever demonstrated UNITY..... you are at the top of the list.  Clearly, you don't belong here...  you wanna erase this post..... :'(


I think its better if we don't communicate....
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Jeg on November 09, 2017, 12:11:54 PM
If i didn't know your backround i would definately assume that you are trying to hide the truth from the people. But i know that it is just a strong made up opinion of yours which just can not move from its place. The fact that the last 100 years all the Tesla coil builders are dumping their caps to a primary producing high frequency sinus oscillations means nothing to me. Sorry mate but i think that it is time to move on! I took my path, keep yours as it is if you know it is right and everything will go fine. Just try to understand that Overunity.com is a place of exchanging ideas, and not a place to demonstrate who has it bigger.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on November 09, 2017, 12:37:20 PM
 author=Erfinder link=topic=17482.msg512856#msg512856 date=1510225421]


Quote
How about you demonstrate how my "mumbo jumbo" isn't in any way, shape or form proof of energy amplification..... thats right, you cant..... I didn't give you enough to copy and paste.....pathetic...

I dont have to.
Your doing a great job ya self  :D

Quote
and we, I, will continue insisting that Tesla hid more than he gave, and suggest that he made things that you lack the ability to comprehend?  The ignorant are motivated by dreams of OU.....

Or your delusional .
Your lack of proofs seems to back that up.

Quote
yep...I claim to understand something you don't about Tesla's work and writings....  guilty...I tell you nothing, I show you nothing......   :'(  me a river....

I was thinking more--throwing you off the bridge.

Quote
yep...  thankfully I am not you and can see more than just an ozone producing machine....

Oh ,im sure you see a lot of things-->like dragons in the kitchen perhaps?

Quote
when this info is provided....what usually happens is you show up, and perform a piss poor replication, we then watch in disgust how you systematically infect and rot the concept from the inside out, after this mind screw..... those who stuck around to watch you do your worst walk away from the discussion and never look back

Well,it would seem that my work has taken me further than you will ever get.

I think what you mean to say is--you show up,and prove me wrong.

Quote
, you were schooled well...  you have a history, and a trail of dead ends....

And yet,have still taught more to others than you ever will.

Quote
You have the balls to say I string people along.... how many epic fails have you suckered your following into replicating.... not a single one of those projects was ever brought to completion.....

Making judgement on only what !you! can see on the forums.

How about we take one of my !failures! and put it up against your best?

Quote
  how many times have you failed the community, and finially failed yourself.....

Not so many actually--oh,thats finally BTW--only 1 i

Quote
Over unity....  it's a bullshit name, especially since no one has ever demonstrated UNITY..... you are at the top of the list.  Clearly, you don't belong here...  you wanna erase this post

Hell no,this post can stay for sure,as it just pointed out how little you know.

Quote: especially since no one has ever demonstrated UNITY

Gee,ya hit the jackpot there cobba,as every device runs at unity.

Quote
I think its better if we don't communicate....

Well stop with all your Tesla horse shit,and how you have unraveled the wholly Tesla grail.

If you had actually done so,then you would not be here,trying to peddle your rubbish.
But as you are still here,and babble on about nothing,trying to turn something into something it is not,and continue to jump on threads that i am involved in--and try to peddle your rubbish further,then i will be staying in touch.

But i'll make you a deal  ;D
Show just one of your tesla devices producing excess energy,and you wont hear from me again.

There--thats a deal im sure many others would like you to take up.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 09, 2017, 12:51:10 PM
author=Erfinder link=topic=17482.msg512856#msg512856 date=1510225421]

I was thinking more--throwing you off the bridge.


I see your true colors shining through......

Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: nelsonrochaa on November 09, 2017, 12:51:23 PM
That is my point.

You spoke about displacement current,and yet you cant seem to associate it with the electric field.

What is !displacement! current,and what gives rise to it?.


Just a little contribution to you know what is displacement current if you don't know ....
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByZY5hj0h0hXMHFOOHdyT29rZDg
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on November 09, 2017, 12:56:03 PM
 author=Jeg link=topic=17482.msg512857#msg512857 date=1510225914]
 .


Quote
If i didn't know your backround i would definately assume that you are trying to hide the truth from the people.

Are you talking to me or Erfinder?
If me,then i have shared everything i have done open source-with the exception of only 1

 
Quote
But i know that it is just a strong made up opinion of yours which just can not move from its place.

After many years,you become aware of what is truth,and what is just talk.
My opinion is very easily moved. All you have to do,is provide third party approved evidence and measurements , that your device delivers more power than it consumes.

Quote
Sorry mate but i think that it is time to move on! I took my path, keep yours as it is if you know it is right and everything will go fine.

Could not agree more Jeg--follow your own path,and learn the truth on the bench--never rely on others words to choose your path for you.

Quote
Just try to understand that Overunity.com is a place of exchanging ideas, and not a place to demonstrate who has it bigger

Yes,and 9 times out of 10,it works very well.
But you see,some time ago,Erfinder called my Rotary Transformer an abomination,and that just did not sit well with me. He gets like that with things he cannot understand,or fears that which he knows not. 

Then you will see,as you did on this thread,he just pops in,and starts babbling on about Tesla devices. Dose not matter what you were talking about,he just changes it to Tesla related stuff,thinking he knows all  ::)
But here he is,some many years later--still babbling on about tesla secrets.
And many years later,no one has been able to put together anything related to Erfinders babble--thats a fact.


Brad
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 09, 2017, 01:37:13 PM
author=Jeg link=topic=17482.msg512857#msg512857 date=1510225914]

But you see,some time ago,Erfinder called my Rotary Transformer an abomination,and that just did not sit well with me.   


garbage in.....garbage out.... :P
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on November 09, 2017, 01:59:47 PM


  you have a history, and a trail of dead ends....  You have the balls to say I string people along.... how many epic fails have you suckered your following into replicating.... not a single one of those projects was ever brought to completion.....  how many times have you failed the community, and finially failed yourself..... 



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvf9Uo7UVx0&t=2s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lbL9ztaX1Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-8LaQHZzF8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Mbp1iuB7as

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7Fxr3OP1sU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HwUuPQn2W8&index=63&list=FLsLiBC2cL5GsZGLcj2rm-4w

The list go's on,including that which you cannot see,nor are a part of.

Then there is the pulse motor build off's
2012,2013,2014,2015,
Where my self and Russ spent many hours putting them altogether,providing prizes at our own cost-along with the donated prizes.

So,i think i have done quite a bit,when it comes  to helping other's,and others have done a lot to help me.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 09, 2017, 02:06:42 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvf9Uo7UVx0&t=2s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvf9Uo7UVx0&t=2s)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lbL9ztaX1Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lbL9ztaX1Y)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-8LaQHZzF8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-8LaQHZzF8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Mbp1iuB7as (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Mbp1iuB7as)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7Fxr3OP1sU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7Fxr3OP1sU)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HwUuPQn2W8&index=63&list=FLsLiBC2cL5GsZGLcj2rm-4w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HwUuPQn2W8&index=63&list=FLsLiBC2cL5GsZGLcj2rm-4w)

The list go's on,including that which you cannot see,nor are a part of.

Then there is the pulse motor build off's
2012,2013,2014,2015,
Where my self and Russ spent many hours putting them altogether,providing prizes at our own cost-along with the donated prizes.

So,i think i have done quite a bit,when it comes  to helping other's,and others have done a lot to help me.


here's a cookie for ya...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QtT3Hbx7xA
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on November 09, 2017, 02:09:02 PM

garbage in.....garbage out.... :P

There ya go--i rest my case.


Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 09, 2017, 02:10:37 PM
There ya go--i rest my case.


what...I'm just returning your kindness...
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Jeg on November 09, 2017, 02:11:07 PM
Please...shake your hands in private and lets continue our journeys in piece. In my very stressing job we call names all of the time but nothing is personal. At the end of the day we are all still friends who trust and help each other. Mistakes happen as we are humans. Egoism just doesn't belong here.

A friend told me once that in this quest we are in the first line. The engineers that use to be here are all pioneers in this area, while the rest of the world is watching.. expecting and hoping for a better tomorrow. Stand up men and show your best.. Failures or misconceptions are WITH us and not AGAINST us. Just keep your eyes open...
Over and Out
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Erfinder on November 09, 2017, 02:15:55 PM
Please...shake your hands in private and lets continue our journeys in piece. In my very stressing job we call names all of the time but nothing is personal. At the end of the day we are all still friends who trust and help each other. Mistakes happen as we are humans. Egoism just doesn't belong here.

A friend told me once that in this quest we are in the first line. The engineers that use to be here are all pioneers in this area, while the rest of the world is watching.. expecting and hoping for a better tomorrow. Stand up men and show your best.. Failures or misconceptions are WITH us and not AGAINST us. Just keep your eyes open...
Over and Out


I don't want his friendship...not interested in his help....could care less about where he's going or where he's been...  He says I babble... those who he whispers with agree with him....  I am cool with that...  I say he builds abominations....  poo for poo...
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on November 09, 2017, 03:16:51 PM
Please...shake your hands in private and lets continue our journeys in piece. In my very stressing job we call names all of the time but nothing is personal. At the end of the day we are all still friends who trust and help each other. Mistakes happen as we are humans. Egoism just doesn't belong here.

A friend told me once that in this quest we are in the first line. The engineers that use to be here are all pioneers in this area, while the rest of the world is watching.. expecting and hoping for a better tomorrow. Stand up men and show your best.. Failures or misconceptions are WITH us and not AGAINST us. Just keep your eyes open...
Over and Out

Wouldn't it be that great if it were that easy Jeg.

Im sorry,but it just aint going to happen.

I  left the land of make believe long ago.
Bedini's magical radiant energy
Lindermanns books of secrets
And Aaron the rookies fairy tale forum--all gone--all removed to make room for reality.

You see,in the beginning,i was a bedini fan,and built pulse motor after pulse motor--even the bicycle wheel one--to the spec's provided.

Month after month,year after year, i searched for this !radiant! energy.
But as the years went by,and i bought better measuring equipment,i started to see this radiant energy fade into the distance--back into the realm of make believe.

You learn to separate the bullshit from reality
You learn to make accurate and correct power measurements on your bench.
You read all the !books of secrets!,only to learn that there are no secrets--there always going to be in the next book  ::)

There is a storm coming Jeg--a big one.

No longer will great names be associated with the famous ,but more so the deceitful

Make sure your on the right boat,as one of them is sinking.


Brad
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: endlessoceans on November 09, 2017, 11:00:19 PM
-------------------
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: evostars on November 10, 2017, 11:18:56 AM

Just a little contribution to you know what is displacement current if you don't know ....
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByZY5hj0h0hXMHFOOHdyT29rZDg

Read that book. Its a great gift.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: stupify12 on November 10, 2017, 05:48:35 PM
Since the natives are restless, I will do something positive to rally the troops:

The Tesla Ozone Patent in modern technical English:

To whom it may concern:

There is a DC electric motor C that blows air down an enclosed trough.  Opposite sides of the trough have plates P that have an alternating high voltage between them that produces the ozone.

The current for the DC electric motor is routed through a cylindrical commutator E that is on the shaft of the motor.  The commutator and associated brushes form the controller H.  The controller will periodically interrupt the current that flows through the motor coils.  When the current to the motor is interrupted by the controller it is directed into an LC resonator formed by coil M and high-voltage capacitor L.  Coil M also forms the primary of a transformer, the secondary of the transformer is coil N.

When the controller interrupts the current to the motor, the motor coils discharge their current through the coil N of the LC resonator and charge up capacitor L to a high voltage.  A short time later the controller disconnects motor's coils leaving the capacitor charged.  A short time after that the controller connects the capacitor to the coil M and there is an LC resonant ring down.  Coil M couples to the secondary coil N which amplifies the AC voltage across coil M.  The ends of coil N connect to the plates P resulting in a very high voltage alternating potential across the plates.  This very high voltage across the plates P produces ozone as the air starts to conduct current.  This will drain energy out of the LC resonator.  A fan is connected to the motor to blow air through the enclosed trough.

What you dont see is the very efficient charging inductor on the motor (F and D) . When the switch interupter close, the motor coil and core charge the energy on the input and held momentarily, discharge (charge) it to the capacitor L when the switch interuptor OPEN. What we need to focus is that big INDUCTOR (charging circuit) on before the L and C. As per Tesla say when he does this he is charging the system twice the energy in a very efficient and little energy input on the L and C.

Remember its the big INDUCTOR on before the L and C.

Meow
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 10, 2017, 06:08:11 PM
Havnt had much time lately.

Thanks Nelson for the book.  ;)

What up kitty?  ;D been a while.

Im getting some things setup for the speaker thread to show some things soon.  The ported enclosures, think about the air in the box as the capacitor and the port as the inductor. The speaker makes pressure(like voltage potential) in the box, and the port, with its length and volume of air as the inductor. The port is a low pass filter like and inductor.  ;) So with this we can emulate and compare it to an LC circuit. ;D

Mags

Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on November 10, 2017, 07:47:16 PM
What you dont see is the very efficient charging inductor on the motor (F and D) . When the switch interupter close, the motor coil and core charge the energy on the input and held momentarily, discharge (charge) it to the capacitor L when the switch interuptor OPEN. What we need to focus is that big INDUCTOR (charging circuit) on before the L and C. As per Tesla say when he does this he is charging the system twice the energy in a very efficient and little energy input on the L and C.

Remember its the big INDUCTOR on before the L and C.

Well I actually see things very clearly.  Without defining efficiency it's a meaningless term.  What needs to be focused on is the entire circuit and how it operates and how power and energy flows through the circuit.  There is no "twice the energy" anywhere in this circuit.  That's a classic line that you see all the time, "my circuit recycles energy that is otherwise wasted" or "my circuit uses the same energy twice."  Those are meaningless statements.

As I previously indicated, this simple circuit could be completely and unambiguously understood by building it and probing it with an oscilloscope and then constructing a full timing diagram that includes all scoped current and voltage waveforms and waveforms for things like power and energy that are derived by the experimenter using his or her intellect.

It may have been something that was patentable in the late 19th century.  However, by today's standards and for the past 70 years, this circuit is no more than a grade seven science project.  It's very easy to imagine a 12-year-old in 1952 that was a serious electronics hobbyist and was lucky enough to have access to an oscilloscope demonstrating this circuit at an elementary school school science fair and explaining it perfectly to the visiting parents.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: Magluvin on November 11, 2017, 07:04:42 AM
Well I actually see things very clearly.  Without defining efficiency it's a meaningless term.  What needs to be focused on is the entire circuit and how it operates and how power and energy flows through the circuit.  There is no "twice the energy" anywhere in this circuit.  That's a classic line that you see all the time, "my circuit recycles energy that is otherwise wasted" or "my circuit uses the same energy twice."  Those are meaningless statements.

As I previously indicated, this simple circuit could be completely and unambiguously understood by building it and probing it with an oscilloscope and then constructing a full timing diagram that includes all scoped current and voltage waveforms and waveforms for things like power and energy that are derived by the experimenter using his or her intellect.

It may have been something that was patentable in the late 19th century.  However, by today's standards and for the past 70 years, this circuit is no more than a grade seven science project.  It's very easy to imagine a 12-year-old in 1952 that was a serious electronics hobbyist and was lucky enough to have access to an oscilloscope demonstrating this circuit at an elementary school school science fair and explaining it perfectly to the visiting parents.

"Well I actually see things very clearly.  Without defining efficiency it's a meaningless term.  What needs to be focused on is the entire circuit and how it operates and how power and energy flows through the circuit.  There is no "twice the energy" anywhere in this circuit.  That's a classic line that you see all the time, "my circuit recycles energy that is otherwise wasted" or "my circuit uses the same energy twice."  Those are meaningless statements"


Well if it were like debunkifieds latest series of vids ::) , all the circuitry and what ever in a box and just 4 wires coming out, input and output, and we couldnt see in the box, but we could measure the input and output, then could we not measure the efficiency of the In/Out?  Lets go another step forward, to be more transparent. So we encapsulate the circuit in a block of cured surfboard resin and 4 wires, power in and power out. Now we know we cannot get to the circuit other than by way of these 4 wires, but we can clearly see inside and see that there is no batteries, etc.  Could we not then measure the efficiency of the in and out and produce qualified results from just those 4 wires?

The difference between the conventional spark circuit, using a correct spark coil, a correct cap and the relay was the closest I could get to points, and the Tesla Igniter version, in efficiency comparison, using the same switching times, is so far off it isnt even funny..  With the conventional circuit, the spark primary is placed across the battery for X amount of time when the switch closes, and in the Igniter circuit the large inductor in series with the primary is also put across the battery for the same X amount of time when the switch closes.  So if during X amount of time, the conventional primary, what, 5.5mh, 1ohm plus the 1ohm ballast for 2ohms, and then the Igniter with the large coil, .9H 46ohm IN SERIES with the 5.5mh 1ohm primary, which one will pull more current from the battery over X amount of time? 12V battery. Which circuit will kill the battery first, no matter what X is?  Well just in your head, for max current over X amount of time, 6A for the conventional and .25A for the igniter..  Not a nice way to think about it?  Well over X amount of time, the .9h coil will take a lot longer to even reach max current than the 5.5mh primary, so the conventional is killing that battery quite a bit faster than the Igniter circuit, and basically no matter what X is.  If there wasnt even a time lag for each example to reach max current, the conventional would be pulling 72w during X time and the Igniter would only pull 3w over X time.  This is just simple figuring.

So really now would be the time to measure the output to see how the 2 would compare. After my scope freaked in my one vid scoping the primary, I went with 2 10kohm resistors in series across the primary and put the scope across just 1 resistor. The voltages were still higher readings for the igniter circuit than the scope directly across the primary in the conventional circuit. All just to say, Im not putting my scope leads anywhere near the sec output terminal. :o ;D

But, I bet that igniter circuit would run a motor. And if it can, then we have greatly reduced the input using the igniter over the conventional circuit. I mean if you want to go into the measurements of the inputs in a more detailed and statistical manner, I dont think you will get much of an evening out of the power in between the 2 compared to what Ive just described and threw together with a calculator. Just cant see it. Going by the resistances alone, it plays a big factor in power within the X time period, let alone the longer delay of the Igniter circuit to even reach max current over X time!!


"my circuit recycles energy that is otherwise wasted?" Well yeah if the circuit did not have the cap, there would be 1 spark.  And a weak spark at that. Wont jump 1cm like with the cap, in which I can get with the igniter just the same. We need that spark period to last more than 1 pip. We need to ensure the burn. And the cap in the conventional circuit gives us that. And the igniter can pull it off also at a small fraction of the input.


"my circuit uses the same energy twice?"  Well we can see the primary oscillation first few peaks are cut shorter than they would normally be when the sec sparks, again and again and again till the spark does not happen any longer, and then the ring down continues smoothly without cutoff peaks. So if there were no cap, this repeated spark would not occur, and nowhere near as strong, as shown in the vids. So we get a first good spark during the rise of the oscillation and the next spark during the neg throw of the oscillation, and then another with the next positive rise, until the spark just cant happen again until the circuit charges up the cap again via switchings. Otherwise we get 1 pip, and it may not be enough to burn all the fuel, let alone ignite the mix regularly or maybe not even at all depending on circumstances.


I know. You dont see the oscillations as possible causes for more than 1 spark. Well My pics and vids show that there are individual arcs. Not some long lasting DC discharge that would snake around instead of showing off the multiple bright arc contact points on the spark plugs electrodes for the individual arcs themselves that we can see.



"As I previously indicated, this simple circuit could be completely and unambiguously understood by building it and probing it with an oscilloscope and then constructing a full timing diagram that includes all scoped current and voltage waveforms and waveforms for things like power and energy that are derived by the experimenter using his or her intellect."

Well get to it then. Show us what you want to show us.


"It may have been something that was patentable in the late 19th century.  However, by today's standards and for the past 70 years, this circuit is no more than a grade seven science project.  It's very easy to imagine a 12-year-old in 1952 that was a serious electronics hobbyist and was lucky enough to have access to an oscilloscope demonstrating this circuit at an elementary school school science fair and explaining it perfectly to the visiting parents."

I loved science classes. We never got into this particular stuff ever. Not even in in vo-tech classes for electronics the last 3 years of high school, or even during my time at Electronic Institute of Pittsburgh.  Not even 1 guy I have talked to about this in all of the mech shops I deal with knows much about any of what is actually happening here.
Well its very easy for me to imagine Tesla putting that 12yr old in his place on this subject.  Explaining it perfectly to the visiting parents? ??? How many pages since page 2 have you gotten it wrong?  That 12 yr old your talking about is kicking your ass. lol.  Come on dude. Takes a lot of balls to come up with a statement like that after reading the thread up until that last post. Dont ya think? ???

Anyway.....

Mags
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: hoptoad on November 11, 2017, 11:54:46 AM
snip....
Well get to it then. Show us what you want to show us.
snip....
Milehigh writes a great many truths, is occasionally wrong, human like the rest of us. But to get him to roll up his sleeves and do some bench work, then show it, may require a miracle that is beyond anyone's expectations. :P
Quote
snip...
I loved science classes. We never got into this particular stuff ever. Not even in in vo-tech classes for electronics the last 3 years of high school, or even during my time at Electronic Institute of Pittsburgh.  Not even 1 guy I have talked to about this in all of the mech shops I deal with knows much about any of what is actually happening here.
snip...
Mags
Perhaps you were unlucky. As a telecommunications technician in the early 1970s, I was lucky enough to experience training in technology going back as far as the 1930/40s that was still in operation, side by side with 1950/60s and 1970s equipment. As such, a sound knowledge of relay (inductor) behaviour coupled with RC circuits and various switching techniques, was essential, given that almost all pre-1960s telecommunications equipment was relay (inductor) driven.

On two points, I agree with Milehigh. Efficiency must be defined. Energy is accountable.

Efficiency can be defined as result versus effort. But that doesn't necessarily mean, the greatest result from the least energy, unless you specifically define efficiency with those parameters in mind.

For example : Lets say I'm a soldier who wishes to kill an enemy at 1000 meters. I can take aim with a high powered rifle and hope I get a direct hit. Or I can fire a short range artillery shell at the same target. I might be lucky in the first instance if I hit the target and killed my enemy, but I'd be incredibly unlucky if I did the same with artillery and didn't kill the enemy with a direct hit.

Obviously artillery is more expensive and high energy expenditure. But the result is likely to be more efficient, if only the result (killed enemy at 1000 meters) is the measure to be taken.

Bad example I know, but something to think about. Desired results sometimes demand high expenditure, but ways of reducing expenditure should always be explored.
Cheers
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on November 12, 2017, 01:10:43 AM
<<< Well get to it then. Show us what you want to show us. >>>
<<< But to get him to roll up his sleeves and do some bench work, then show it, may require a miracle that is beyond anyone's expectations.  >>>

You're both just trolling me.

Magsy, you get into it, you have the setup.  Why is the spark bigger with the capacitor?  How does the ignition coil circuit actually work?  Where is the input energy going?  What is the complete timing diagram for the ignition coil circuit?  After all this time and with your own setup you haven't answered those questions yourself.

<<<  How many pages since page 2 have you gotten it wrong?  That 12 yr old your talking about is kicking your ass. lol.  Come on dude. Takes a lot of balls to come up with a statement like that after reading the thread up until that last post. Dont ya think?  >>>

Your claim from the beginning was that resonance between the primary and the capacitor was how the ignition coil circuit worked and you got it wrong.  Welcome to the club.  And from what I am hearing from you, you still have it wrong.

You have almost just been a bystander for the first main part of the thread where the ignition coil circuit was discussed.  Yes, it is a bit more involved than we thought and I did the digging and iterated through the process and got up the learning curve and now I am quite certain that I have it right and I understand the nuances.  Meanwhile, you did a few clips showing small sparks and big sparks and then a clip where you scoped the primary and saw the oscillations and then you folded up and called it a day.  In other words, show and don't tell and don't explain which is just classic behaviour for the forum.  You have not come up with any tests on your own to investigate what is going on in your setup.  You did a close-up and saw multiple spark streams and then said, "See, this is proof that the oscillations in the resonant ring-down have a benefit" or something to that effect.  You have no data to back up that claim and it is highly dubious.  My gut feel is telling me that the air will spontaneously break down into multiple plasma streamers when driven by a discharging coil, irregardless of any "oscillations."

You have a setup and I am not seeing you actually apply your knowledge and bench skills to really get down and answer the questions for your own satisfaction and that of the readers:  Why is the spark bigger with the capacitor?  Where is the input energy going?  How does the ignition coil circuit actually work?  What is the complete timing diagram for the ignition coil circuit?

I am not seeing you develop any of your own tests using your own brainpower to analyze this circuit.  I even mentioned several possible tests to you in PM and there was the sound of one hand clapping in response.

And absolutely yes, an astute 12-year-old that is really interested in electronics could answer all of the aforementioned questions and explain all of the nuances.
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: tinman on November 12, 2017, 08:08:48 AM
<<< Well get to it then. Show us what you want to show us. >>>
<<< But to get him to roll up his sleeves and do some bench work, then show it, may require a miracle that is beyond anyone's expectations.  >>>

You're both just trolling me.

Magsy, you get into it, you have the setup.    How does the ignition coil circuit actually work?  Where is the input energy going?  What is the complete timing diagram for the ignition coil circuit?  After all this time and with your own setup you haven't answered those questions yourself.

<<<  How many pages since page 2 have you gotten it wrong?  That 12 yr old your talking about is kicking your ass. lol.  Come on dude. Takes a lot of balls to come up with a statement like that after reading the thread up until that last post. Dont ya think?  >>>

Your claim from the beginning was that resonance between the primary and the capacitor was how the ignition coil circuit worked and you got it wrong.  Welcome to the club.  And from what I am hearing from you, you still have it wrong.

You have almost just been a bystander for the first main part of the thread where the ignition coil circuit was discussed.  Yes, it is a bit more involved than we thought and I did the digging and iterated through the process and got up the learning curve and now I am quite certain that I have it right and I understand the nuances.  Meanwhile, you did a few clips showing small sparks and big sparks and then a clip where you scoped the primary and saw the oscillations and then you folded up and called it a day.  In other words, show and don't tell and don't explain which is just classic behaviour for the forum.  You have not come up with any tests on your own to investigate what is going on in your setup.  You did a close-up and saw multiple spark streams and then said, "See, this is proof that the oscillations in the resonant ring-down have a benefit" or something to that effect.  You have no data to back up that claim and it is highly dubious.  My gut feel is telling me that the air will spontaneously break down into multiple plasma streamers when driven by a discharging coil, irregardless of any "oscillations."

You have a setup and I am not seeing you actually apply your knowledge and bench skills to really get down and answer the questions for your own satisfaction and that of the readers:  Why is the spark bigger with the capacitor?  Where is the input energy going?  How does the ignition coil circuit actually work?  What is the complete timing diagram for the ignition coil circuit?

I am not seeing you develop any of your own tests using your own brainpower to analyze this circuit.  I even mentioned several possible tests to you in PM and there was the sound of one hand clapping in response.

And absolutely yes, an astute 12-year-old that is really interested in electronics could answer all of the aforementioned questions and explain all of the nuances.

Quote
Why is the spark bigger with the capacitor?

It captures the !otherwise wasted! energy from the primary's inductive kickback,and that energy is discharged through the !now low! resistance of the arc.


Brad
Title: Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
Post by: MileHigh on November 12, 2017, 02:32:59 PM
Why is the spark bigger with the capacitor?

It captures the !otherwise wasted! energy from the primary's inductive kickback,and that energy is discharged through the !now low! resistance of the arc.

Brad

I would say that your response is in the the right direction but it's not how I would put it.  Let's Magluvin take the lead and give us his take on it and we will see if he is going to answer the questions that I posted.