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Author Topic: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....  (Read 13937 times)

Offline tinman

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #75 on: October 29, 2017, 01:33:51 AM »
I was going to save this in case there is a rebuttal to my reply to brad..  But I just cant contain it any longer  ;D ;D ;D ;D   See I do this stuff, like leaving out the balast resistor functions of basically cutting the battery voltage in half for the primary, not commenting on this what I present below of the part of brads post I didnt cover in my reply, so that when the discussion goes on, I have ultimate ammo for my later posts and destroy the target. Ive been doing that for years here and it works very well..   Its not unfair that I do so. Its smart.  If others like Mh and in this case brad, wants to do technical knowledge battle on this field, then I will use this strategy and their own words to beat them..  Truly i dont wish for these battles. But they do occur for many of us.. So take that as a piece of advice when you are arguing something you really know about and someone disputes it. If they do have it all wrong, you will win the battle with these 2 strategical technical battle methods every time. ;) ;)

Notice i didnt say anything to this in brads post....

"Ok,regarding the topic at hand.

The condenser serves many purposes,and here is one to think about.

We all know that if we remove the condenser ,we get very erratic engine running--back firing through the carby-and all sorts.
But how could the timing be that advanced that it would backfire through the carby?.."


This is the reason for the question that is in the end of brads post.....

"What roll dose the condenser play here in this one example?"

What he is trying to imply is that there would be a spark when the points close.  Again,  "What roll dose the condenser play here in this one example?

This has MH all over it to make up a fantasy reason for the cap to say it does something other than help give resonance to the system just like Mh did in his first post!!  Exactly the same motive!! MH splattered all over it. ;) Follow me hear....

The statement was  "We all know that if we remove the condenser ,we get very erratic engine running--back firing through the carby-and all sorts.
But how could the 'timing' be that advanced that it would backfire through the carby?.."

All to suggest that there would be a spark when the points close for the reasons brad described later in the post. He is saying specifically about the timing advance as if the spark did occur when the switch closed, it would be sparking way before the compression stroke completes.. Well then, how does the cap solve that issue if the cap is shorted by the closed points switch? ??? ??  That is what the questions answer is suppose to conclude, that the cap helps in some way to prevent this spark when the contacts close and the secondary 'supposedly' gives a spark!!!!.. ;) ;) ;)   Huge fail and MH has his twisting little finger prints all over it and still cant get it right trying to do so just like in his first post here that I approved for discussion.  And then I destroyed him. lol ;D

Those in the know of this circuit should agree 110%. 

Brad, the only way out of this mess is to admit that MH came up with the whole thing and you posted it as your own thoughts.  I know that you 'should' know better than this..   ;)   So here is your chance at an out here..  How do I know that MH came up with that twisted concoction?  Ive been here for 10 years and had a 'Lot' of experience dealing with him twisting things so badly that I just tear it up with his own words just like I did with your post and with his post.  It has his "the cap cannot oscillate with the primary no way no how" all over it just like his earlier description...By way of misdirection. By way of diversion tactics.... I would bet my membership here on this.. ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

But brad, if your sticking to your post as is, then Ill be waiting for your reply to explain it some how some way to make it right without changing anything.  Been here for what few hours now, rereading and rereading it all including my reply to be absolutely positive on this..  I got it right and you simply do not know what your talking about period. And that is sad if it is so..

Mags

Well Mag's,it looks like your ammo backfired this time,as the running voltages and explanation of the ballast resistors operation in the circuit is correct.

Im really not sure what has happened to you,but you are way of the mark with !all! your accusations toward me-like teaming up with MH-->really :o


Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline tinman

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #76 on: October 29, 2017, 01:35:27 AM »
And Brad, if you delete any of these posts before WE discuss it with Stefan in order to let him be the judge if need be, I will show stefan my page saves as full evidence that this crap is going on.
I promise you that.

Mags

As i said--i have not approved or deleted any posts in this thread--nor will i do so.


Offline tinman

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #77 on: October 29, 2017, 01:53:12 AM »
Im not gettig where you think Im part wrong. I do not agree with anything of brads explanation except the 100:1 ratios, and some are different. But that 100:1 will work here


Wikipedia is not a source that I trust on all things

If resonance gives a gain as i claim, then why are these 2 guys coming up with circuits to dispute that resonance even exists, and the circuits they use to do so are so flawed that they wont work as they say it does, and I have proved that for both to the T.  So why cant they explain why the resonance doesnt exist with an actual circuit explanation that ACTUALLY WORKS????? Think man!   Mh will use anything and everything to instill into the readers minds that resonance does not even exist in the circuit let alone that there is a gain to be had.  Why?  Because this is his job. He is the disinformation man. OU does not exist.  And he is trying to discredit my claim with everything in the book to try and ensure that the readers do not take what i say seriously.  He is the Monsanto of free energy. Monsanto is trying to rid the world of organic God made foods and say their gmo is better, when it its not. It has major porblems. If you dont know what Im talking about then i suggest you dig into the subject for the safety of you and yours. Mh is the same for any claims of free energy and the components there of that could get us free energy, like resonance and the gains I claim it gives for one..

Mags

First up mag's,i have never said that you are incorrect about resonance--we leave that till later.

I said that the condenser has many roles to play,and asked about just one of those rolls.

What i have said has been correct--
The voltage of a vehicles  electrical system is around 14.4 volt's
And the ballast resistors roll is to lower the L/R time constant,to allow for higher operational frequencies-->higher RPM.

I guess it's time to throw together a points ignition system,and see what we have--Yea?.


Brad

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #78 on: October 29, 2017, 02:40:04 AM »
author=Magluvin link=topic=17482.msg512317#msg512317 date=1509155591]



Not sure if your having a bad day,or have had to much whacky weed Mag's,but i have not approved or removed any ones posts in this thread--i have done nothing but read,and make the comments i made--thats it.

No wacky weed.  But I just looked at the moderation log and Stefan approved them apparently. Didnt know I could see who 'else' did.  I bases it on your posting just a couple hours after they we approved. So sorry on that. ;) It wasnt me, I only approved the posts before that. Wasnt grum as he and i have be conversing lately. Also didnt know us 3 were not the only ones to moderate here.

First up--!some! ignition systems use a ballast resistor--every seen one on a motorcycle that has points ignition?. Most high performance points ignition systems have no ballast resistor,nor do a lot of coils require a ballast resistor.

Second--a resistor reduces current flow-not voltage.
The voltage will appear across the coil,regardless of the resistor or not.
The ballast resistor is to reduce the time constant(the rate at which current rises in the coil)--the larger the series resistance,the shorter the time constant.
This allows your ignition coil to operate at a higher frequency--higher RPM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzz7P3qNHcE


 

I think you missed the whole question Mags,which was--why do you think the engine runs rough and back fires when there is no condenser ?
I basically answered this for you,and you missed it.
 

I am.
https://itstillruns.com/output-voltage-gm-alternators-7754415.html

I do  :D

Well Mag's--you are having a bad day.

Seems like one of us know the operating voltage of a vehicles electrical system.

What part did you expose exactly ?.

As i said,i basically answered the question for you.
What ever happened to people using there own smarts ?.

But you did not put me in my place Mag's,as all that i quoted was correct,from the purpose of the ballast resistor,and the average operating voltage of a vehicles electrical system.

As far as the RT go's--that is best left dead and buried.


Brad

"Not sure if your having a bad day,or have had to much whacky weed Mag's,but i have not approved or removed any ones posts in this thread--i have done nothing but read,and make the comments i made--thats it"

No wacky weed.  But I just looked at the moderation log and Stefan approved them apparently. Didnt know I could see who 'else' did.  I bases it on your posting just a couple hours after they we approved. So sorry on that. ;) It wasnt me, I only approved the posts before that. Wasnt grum as he and i have be conversing lately. Also didnt know us 3 were not the only ones to moderate here.

"First up--!some! ignition systems use a ballast resistor--every seen one on a motorcycle that has points ignition?. Most high performance points ignition systems have no ballast resistor,nor do a lot of coils require a ballast resistor.



Second--a resistor reduces current flow-not voltage.
The voltage will appear across the coil,regardless of the resistor or not.
The ballast resistor is to reduce the time constant(the rate at which current rises in the coil)--the larger the series resistance,the shorter the time constant.
This allows your ignition coil to operate at a higher frequency--higher RPM."

The ballast resistor is commonly 1ohm like the primary. With it in series with the coil during closed points time, the amount of current flowing is only as much as the total resistance. It becomes a voltage divider. 12v becomes 6v across each. Simple I=v/r  When the points are open there is no voltage across the coil with just the ign sw on. Only the cap has 12v.  just using 12v here. 14.4 would be 7.2v each. Dealt with this with one of the guys at my previous work as they didnt understand why there wasnt anything near 12 on the col primary and was searching for why. So I showed him why with the meter just like I said it above.

"I think you missed the whole question Mags,which was--why do you think the engine runs rough and back fires when there is no condenser ?
I basically answered this for you,and you missed it."

Well if the plug is firing sometimes and a weak spark even if it does spark every time without the cap, there will not always be a burn in the cycle and the cyl can get a little loaded with fuel, more than would be in a single cycle. This can cause backfire just like a bad plug, wire, whichever. Out of time can definitely cause backfire but it is more typical with retard. Just like a too rich mixture can cause backfire the same can happen when a cyl doesnt get a burn for a cycle or more due to a weak spark.  Like what you are saying is the advanced spark time that you speak of is ways off of when it should spark. Your talkin intake valve open right? For the the flames to come out of the carb that is way off timing. When it is suppose to spark is just before complete compression. You are sayin that the closure of the points for the spark you are talking about would be somewhere between intake valve just opening and when it closes just before compression begins. Id say that is not a point where the distributor rotor is even close enough to the particular plug wire terminal for the very weak spark to even jump let alone with the series opening of the plug gap.
Look up  What causes backfire and too rich will come up every time. If a cyl is not firing well and periodic burns, then the too rich deal would occur when it does happen to get a decent spark.  I did a search just now and see nothing that you describe in your post,  I had to do the search just to add to my argument that there cannot be a spark by way of when the switch closes, even if you have 20v in. Try it.  There will only be a spark when the switch opens due to the field collapse.

Can you show me a source link that covers just what you say is happening here? One that says there can be a spark when the points close if the condenser is removed?
If you can I will cut my toe off. Only if they can explain how the shorted cap when the switch is closed prevents this mystery spark. ;)

I dont buy it. Gotta show something other than just your opinion on that, of which it just may be an opinion and you are not stating it as a fact. Thats fine either way, but if you claim it is fact, does anyone else out there on the net agree with that?

The cyl is rich due to intermittent burns because of intermittent weak sparks because the cap is not there to help with making the spark stronger, thus back firings occur. Thats my story


here is the big issue. How does the cap affect this premature when the switch closes spark you speak of?   Ok so you say there is this spark that happens when the points switch closes, right? Well how would having the cap across the points switch help to prevent that spark you claim happens?  At this point if the spark you say can occur when the switch closes, the cap is now shorted when the switch closes. What is the caps function, while it is shorted across the closed switch that prevents this spark you are claiming happens when the switch closes??



Here is the question at the end of your post  "What roll dose the condenser play here in this one example?."  Well the answer is it plays no roll. it is dead shorted at the time of the switch closure... So is that a correct answer to that last question?  Because if it is, then the whole, spark when the switch closes when the cap is removed form the circuit, is all a farce. Because with the cap or without the cap this spark should occur and give you the same backfires with or without the cap!! Get it?

Right there shows it is definitely not as you say.   ;)   Can you agree that there is not this 'when points closed spark' whether the cap is there or not???

I mean you did say  "We all know that if we remove the condenser ,we get very erratic engine......"  Well? ???    If you agree that the spark you speak of does not occur period now, then why did you make it all up as if it is the way it is brad? ???

Mags
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 05:11:12 AM by Magluvin »


Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #79 on: October 29, 2017, 03:24:00 AM »
Im glad you dont disagree with the resonance Brad.  Do you agree we attain a gain in eff of in and out with this resonance? Pin should not really change cap or no cap. But with the cap we definitely get more out thus an efficiency gain.

That is my whole point. I really could care less if the points burn in 7 switchings or remains clean forever, or whether the piston has a hole in it. The gain is had by way of resonance.  My setup was direct battery just as shown in the 2 circuit examples MH posted, so I did it that way, and the results just by viewing the spark are apparent right away. We can say more with the cap. But MH refuses the resonance claim. Resonance is what this topic is all about and if he wants to show that resonance is not there, I will let him do that till he runs out of ideas before i show him the scope shots, mostly because Im tired of him sayin I dont know anything and he knows it all. Well I let him screw up time after time to show his so called circuit analysis skills are really bunk and we should know this if he is going to pretend to be what he is not. If someone tell you the wrong stuff all the time would you not want someone to tell you about it if you didnt really know for yourself? there are a lot of people here that just take things for what is said. It is discouraging. Im here for the real ou search. Im here to tell my end of it and not just keep it to myself. MHs posts are a LOT of what cant be done more than what can be done. I have issue with that because just here in this thread it shows and is bad in a way that he makes up stuff, and his analysis is bad. I cant let the readers fall for that. just as I cant let the readers believe in this spark brad speaks of as truth, because it isnt.

I was a bit caught up with the timing of your post brad and the timing of MHs posts being approved within a couple hours of your post, And then your post of the cap removed lets this switch on spark being wrong, unless you can explain it further the 'caps roll" thing better, I have to say that spark does not happen cap or not. It all had me thinking collisions with MH was there. So yeah I freaked out.  But I have to still say your post is not correct if the assumption is that there is a spark when the switch closes, cap or no cap.

Felt ganged up on a bit. Im dead serious on the resonance gain and if MH keeps trying to derail the resonance gain is false then I have to put out as much that it is and he puts out that it isnt.  Otherwise I may as well just go home or do other things than come here, put it out there and just let him make it all disappear just like that.


So Id like to see brads setup produce that switch on spark without the cap and goes away when the cap is present. That is the only way I would believe it. Ille set up right along side of him and try for myself. Thing is, the regular collapse spark is sooo weak, I cannot see the swiitch closure spark happening. And when I say cant see it, I mean I really I didnt see it. ;)   1mm gap, .5mm gap, .2mm gap.  No switch on spark occurs......

mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #79 on: October 29, 2017, 03:24:00 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #80 on: October 29, 2017, 04:30:41 AM »
Oh yeah, and as far as me being an "anti-resonance shill" goes or "someone is paying me" goes, that has nothing to do with me and says a lot about you.  It feels like we are on our way towards another "fail" doesn't it?  You yourself brought up the question about the ignition circuit and the capacitor to me, and as of yet we have no data from you, just some "show and don't tell" observational clips.  You claim that you are going to show some real data on Sunday, and all that I can say is bring it on.  After all, it would be a miracle if an experiment could be performed and come to a successful conclusion with everybody understanding what is taking place and everybody being on the same page.

Here is the thing with you..  You bash anyone who talks of resonance. First you say hey magzy resonance wont help you, but here you deny the existence of it. No matter what your stance is there is no possible way for the primary and cap to oscillate. It is an LRC because of the other things in the loop when the contacts open. Look up LRC resonance and tell me you can find no reference to that. ???   Pic below

Shall I copy paste all the times you have said that there is no resonance in this circuit?

And your first post your description is devoid of any inductance action other than transformer action

And the cap only ever charges to 12v if the battery voltage is 12.

And are strongly expressing only dc exists in the circuit as a whole with the exception of some artifacts in the secondary

Anything to avoid the possibility of the lcr resonance that is easily found all over the internet.  So your expert circuit analysis is lacking dont you think?


Has me thinking that why dont you just say that oscillation gives you nothing? Thats what you have always said before. So why the complete denial that it does exist here and nowhere have you done that before?  So I have to think you really need to shill this one out harder as this circuit must  have some things going on that it needs to be killed lol.  Sorry but...  So you just keep denying the possibility of the oscillation of the cap and primary, of which is described as the resonant freq of the LRC in the searches below in the pic. So now those are not correct and an LRC doesnt ring? Or this circuit is not an lrc ? 

I just needed to say this hard right now. I cannot have you perpetuating the idea that it cant, it wont, it doesnt ring just like a bell. If you know what you say you know, then you should know better. So this hard hitting, constant, resonance is nothing and saying it doesnt even exist in the circuit here, yeah has me thinkin shill jim. You say there are no shills here.  look up  Monsanto shill  And see the result of the search.  And its real.  So in the energy industry is it so hard to believe that there may be some here?  Monsanto doesnt want people to believe their products are harmful to us.  So is it so hard to believe that the energy industry wouldnt want people to know of free energy?  Ah just because it is impossible to begin with right?  Thats what they said about many things starting 200 years ago up until now.

mags
'

Offline tinman

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #81 on: October 29, 2017, 05:03:29 AM »
"Not sure if your having a bad day,or have had to much whacky weed Mag's,but i have not approved or removed any ones posts in this thread--i have done nothing but read,and make the comments i made--thats it"

No wacky weed.  But I just looked at the moderation log and Stefan approved them apparently. Didnt know I could see who 'else' did.  I bases it on your posting just a couple hours after they we approved. So sorry on that. ;) It wasnt me, I only approved the posts before that. Wasnt grum as he and i have be conversing lately. Also didnt know us 3 were not the only ones to moderate here.

"First up--!some! ignition systems use a ballast resistor--every seen one on a motorcycle that has points ignition?. Most high performance points ignition systems have no ballast resistor,nor do a lot of coils require a ballast resistor.



Second--a resistor reduces current flow-not voltage.
The voltage will appear across the coil,regardless of the resistor or not.
The ballast resistor is to reduce the time constant(the rate at which current rises in the coil)--the larger the series resistance,the shorter the time constant.
This allows your ignition coil to operate at a higher frequency--higher RPM."

 When the points are open there is no voltage across the coil with just the ign sw on. Only the cap has 12v.  just using 12v here. 14.4 would be 7.2v each. Dealt with this with one of the guys at my previous work as they didnt understand why there wasnt anything near 12 on the col primary and was searching for why. So I showed him why with the meter just like I said it above.

"I think you missed the whole question Mags,which was--why do you think the engine runs rough and back fires when there is no condenser ?
I basically answered this for you,and you missed it."

Well if the plug is firing sometimes and a weak spark even if it does spark every time without the cap, there will not always be a burn in the cycle and the cyl can get a little loaded with fuel, more than would be in a single cycle. This can cause backfire just like a bad plug, wire, whichever. Out of time can definitely cause backfire but it is more typical with retard. Just like a too rich mixture can cause backfire the same can happen when a cyl doesnt get a burn for a cycle or more due to a weak spark.  Like what you are saying is the advanced spark time that you speak of is way off of when it should spark. You talkin intake valve open right? For the the flames to come out of the carb that is way off timing. When it is suppose to spark is just before complete compression. You are sayin that the closure of the points for the spark you are talking about would be somewhere between intake valve just opening and when it closes just before compression begins. Id say that is not a point where the distributor rotor is even close enough to the particular plug wire terminal for the very weak spark to even jump let alone with the series opening of the plug gap.
Look up  What causes backfire and too rich will come up every time. If a cyl is not firing well and periodic burs, then the too rich deal would occur when it does happen to get a decent spark.  I did a search just now and see nothing that you describe in your post,  I had to do the search just to add to my argument that there cannot be a spark by way of when the switch closes, even if you have 20v in. Try it.  The will only be a spark when the switch opens due to the field collapse.

And you show me a source link that covers just what you say is happening here? One that say there can be a spark when the points close if the condenser is removed?
If you can I will cut my toe off. Only if they can explain how the shorted cap when the switch is closed prevents this mystery spark. ;)

I dont buy it. Gotta show something other than just your opinion on that, of which it just may be an opinion and you are not stating it as a fact. Thats fine either way, but if you claim it is fact, does anyone else out there on the net agree with that?

The cyl is rich due to intermittent burns because of intermittent weak sparks because the cap is not there to help with making the spark stronger, thus back firings occur. Thats my story


here is the big issue. How does the cap affect this premature when the switch closes spark you speak of?   Ok so you say there is this spark that happens when the points switch closes, right Well how would having the cap across the points switch help to prevent that sark you claim happens?  At this point if the spark you say can occur when the switch closes, the cap is now shorted when the switch closes. What is the caps function, while it is shorted across the closed switch that prevents this spark you are claiming happens when the switch closes??



Here is the question at the end of your post  "What roll dose the condenser play here in this one example?."  Well the answer is it plays no roll. it is dead shorted at the time of the switch closure... So is that a correct answer to that last question?  Because if it is, then the whole, spark when the switch closes when the cap is removed form the circuit, is all a farce. Because with the cap or without the cap this spark should occur and give you the same backfires with or without the cap!! Get it?

Right there shows it is definitely not as you say.   ;)   Can you agree that there is not this 'when points closed spark' whether the cap is there or not???

I mean you did say  "We all know that if we remove the condenser ,we get very erratic engine......"  Well? ???    If you agree that the spark you speak of does not occur period now, then why did you make it all up as if it is the way it is brad? ???

Mags

Quote
The ballast resistor is commonly 1ohm like the primary. With it in series with the coil during closed points time, the amount of current flowing is only as much as the total resistance. It becomes a voltage divider. 12v becomes 6v across each. Simple I=v/r


No Mag's,it's not as simple as I=v/r as we have inductance.

After all this time,you should know that a voltage appears across an inductor before current starts to flow.

The ballast resisters job is to decrease the L/R time constant,and this allows for a higher operating frequency--as in RPM in this case.

The secondaries voltage will increase with an increase in rate of change of the magnetic field--Yes?.

It would be far better to set up a test bed,and shoot a video for you.

I am glad you found that it was not i that approved any posts from MH.
I am glad you now know that the average operating voltage of a vehicles electrical system is around 14.4 volts.
I can only hope that you also do some research on the ballast resistors operation as well.


Brad


Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #81 on: October 29, 2017, 05:03:29 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #82 on: October 29, 2017, 06:07:39 AM »


No Mag's,it's not as simple as I=v/r as we have inductance.

After all this time,you should know that a voltage appears across an inductor before current starts to flow.

The ballast resisters job is to decrease the L/R time constant,and this allows for a higher operating frequency--as in RPM in this case.

The secondaries voltage will increase with an increase in rate of change of the magnetic field--Yes?.

It would be far better to set up a test bed,and shoot a video for you.

I am glad you found that it was not i that approved any posts from MH.
I am glad you now know that the average operating voltage of a vehicles electrical system is around 14.4 volts.
I can only hope that you also do some research on the ballast resistors operation as well.


Brad


Brad

Right? When the switch closes 12v appears across the primary. And no current has flowed yet.  ;) So even if it were 15v, you cant use that value in the calculation of what happens on the secondary till current flows!  So as the field builds the current rises and the voltage across the primary decreases and the resistor voltage increases.  So if there is a spark when the switch closes, at what point during the field build, voltage going lower and current rising time, does the primary shmack the secondary enough to calculate to get 1500v at any point in time that the switch is closed? When the 2 resistances end at 7.5v each at max field build?  The resistance voltage divider comes into play along the way and you wont get the voltage and current calculations for the 15v to induce the secondary as you say like a transformer..   

lol put a resistor in series with the primary of a typical 12v transformer and plug it into a wall brad,, Now scope the primary.  If the primary is say 500ohms and the series resistor is 500ohms, what voltage would you see across the transformer vs the line current at the wall outlet?   That transformers output will be half of what it is suppose to be when without the resistor...... So your calculations would be invalid....

Now would the absence of the ballast resistor be just that, what you say a current limiter to not get the spark that you speak of? if the resistor is taken out of the loop, would there be the contacts closed spark? Maybe the ballast resistors function is just for that purpose to avoid the switch on spark?

Well what kind of a spark would be output by the secondary if the primary were ringing at high freq with 250v swings compared to 15v direct connect? Id say the 15 only spark will be pretty close to nothing that could possibly cross the distributor gaps and the spark plug gaps in series.

Mags



Offline MileHigh

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #83 on: October 29, 2017, 10:48:41 AM »
Here is the thing with you..  You bash anyone who talks of resonance. First you say hey magzy resonance wont help you, but here you deny the existence of it. No matter what your stance is there is no possible way for the primary and cap to oscillate. It is an LRC because of the other things in the loop when the contacts open. Look up LRC resonance and tell me you can find no reference to that. ???   Pic below

Shall I copy paste all the times you have said that there is no resonance in this circuit?

And your first post your description is devoid of any inductance action other than transformer action

And the cap only ever charges to 12v if the battery voltage is 12.

And are strongly expressing only dc exists in the circuit as a whole with the exception of some artifacts in the secondary

Anything to avoid the possibility of the lcr resonance that is easily found all over the internet.  So your expert circuit analysis is lacking dont you think?


Has me thinking that why dont you just say that oscillation gives you nothing? Thats what you have always said before. So why the complete denial that it does exist here and nowhere have you done that before?  So I have to think you really need to shill this one out harder as this circuit must  have some things going on that it needs to be killed lol.  Sorry but...  So you just keep denying the possibility of the oscillation of the cap and primary, of which is described as the resonant freq of the LRC in the searches below in the pic. So now those are not correct and an LRC doesnt ring? Or this circuit is not an lrc ? 

I just needed to say this hard right now. I cannot have you perpetuating the idea that it cant, it wont, it doesnt ring just like a bell. If you know what you say you know, then you should know better. So this hard hitting, constant, resonance is nothing and saying it doesnt even exist in the circuit here, yeah has me thinkin shill jim. You say there are no shills here.  look up  Monsanto shill  And see the result of the search.  And its real.  So in the energy industry is it so hard to believe that there may be some here?  Monsanto doesnt want people to believe their products are harmful to us.  So is it so hard to believe that the energy industry wouldnt want people to know of free energy?  Ah just because it is impossible to begin with right?  Thats what they said about many things starting 200 years ago up until now.

mags
'

But you are ignoring what the ignition circuit is actually doing.  From an earlier post:

<<< When inductors discharge into resistive loads, they don't resonate.  The plasma is a non-linear resistor, therefore there is no resonance.  And I know that when an inductor discharges into a plasma, essentially all of the energy stored in the inductor is drained away in one shot.  And that is fundamentally what the ignition of a spark plug is, and that's why I said there was no resonance.  >>>

It doesn't matter if there is LCR resonance all over the Internet.  It's fundamentally a "Bedini circuit" although putting it like that makes me cringe.  For something like the thousandth time:  You energize an inductor.  The you open the switch and we know that the inductor is a current source and come hell or high water the inductor is going to push out current and nothing can stop it.  If the inductor encounters a capacitor in its path it will push current into the capacitor until it is drained of energy and then the capacitor will output voltage and push back into the inductor and you get resonance.  If the inductor encounters a resistor of any value, it will push current into the resistor until it is drained of energy - NO RESONANCE.  If the resistor is air, then it will push current through the air and turn the air into plasma because nothing can stop the inductor from pushing current, and the inductor will push current through the air until it is drained of energy - NO RESONANCE.

So what is the bare-bones version of what is happening in the ignition circuit?  It's simple, the secondary inductor pushes current through the air and tuns it into plasma and and it stops pushing current through the air plasma when it is drained of energy - NO RESONANCE.

What is the more detailed version of what is happening in the ignition circuit?  The inductor has two heads like a hydra, the primary inductor and the secondary inductor.  The current flow rate for the primary inductor is higher than the current flow rate for the secondary inductor.  As long as the primary or the secondary is meeting its assigned current flow rate everything is fine - if there is no place for the current to flow from the primary or the secondary the inductor will have a freak-out and generate millions of volts if required to break down anything in its path.   When the switch opens, there is a place for current to flow via the primary, and current flows into the capacitor.  So the primary pushes current into the capacitor until the capacitor is charged to say 300 volts.  At this point the capacitor is pushing back hard on the primary and perhaps 90% of the energy is still stored in the ignition coil core.  The current flow is always looking for the path of least resistance and at this point the secondary takes over and pushes current through the air turning it into plasma.  When this happens the current flow in the primary stops.  Once the secondary is pushing current through the plasma, it drains off the remaining 90% of the energy in the core until it is down to zero.  The whole time the secondary was pushing current through the air plasma, the primary and the charged capacitor were locked in a stalemate pushing battle and no current was flowing.  Now that the core is drained of energy, the primary loses its source of pushing power and finally the capacitor pushes back and wins, and the current flow finally changes direction and you have a resonant ring-down that is damped by the battery.  This resonant ring-down between the primary and the capacitor does not have enough juice to reignite the air on the secondary and turn it back into plasma.

Now, the above is what is happening based on what I learned after getting up to speed after I wrote up my original spec which was clearly wrong.  If you want to argue that resonance is giving you a gain or is the principle mechanism for giving you a bigger plasma spark on the secondary then you have to make a valid and credible case for that.  Just having LCR resonance fantasies because you see a capacitor and an inductor connected to each other on a schematic is not going to cut it.

And on top of that, if you disagree with the more detailed version of what is happening in the ignition circuit as stated above, then make your case again.  Just ignoring it is not going to get you any Brownie Points.  I think what I state above is 100% credible, and it's not going to just go away.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 05:54:06 PM by MileHigh »

Offline webby1

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #84 on: October 29, 2017, 11:01:19 AM »
Found this for those that do not know the wave forms.
https://www.slideshare.net/kimmimaru/waveform-ignition
Funny thing about that link,, Keshe is also on that page,,


Funny stuff about voltage run levels,, if my Mini Cooper goes above 14.2 it sets an error,, below 13 and it won't run,, then my old Chevy truck would often hit 14.7 without an issue,, it could go higher if I ran it full field and at high RPM.


Anyway,,  if you look at the waveforms you will notice that there is a much higher firing line voltage than the burn line voltage,,

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #84 on: October 29, 2017, 11:01:19 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #85 on: October 29, 2017, 11:16:00 AM »
This posting is the revenge of the battery and the big spark V2.0.

In my original write up I thought that during the plasma burn the battery was putting power into the plasma via the coil acting like a step-up transformer and I was wrong.  Clearly, while the capacitor is being charged up by the primary there is no burn until the "breaking point" when the secondary takes over and ignites the plasma and the core dumps its energy into the plasma via the secondary.  It's impossible for the battery to be contributing to the burn under these conditions because current has stopped flowing counter-clockwise through the loop.

Here is where the battery gets its revenge because it can still put extra energy into the core _after_ the switch opens and _before_ the plasma burn starts.`  Note however this assumes that the primary has been energized for considerably less than 5 L/R time constants and there is still room to increase the current flow in the primary.  So this may be helping give you a more energetic spark in a running engine, but not on a bench test where you are doing the switching by hand.  (This makes me think more and more that the reason you get the more energetic spark with the capacitor is because it protects the contact points from arcing and a lot of energy is lost when there is arcing across the contact points.)

Just look at the attached images.  The bottom image shows the ignition coil circuit.  Look at the battery, it is in the loop ready to push.  What happens when the switch first opens?  The capacitor acts like a short circuit.  If there is still available headroom in the core to store energy, then the battery may indeed contribute to the more robust spark by adding some extra energy to the core for a fraction of a millisecond.  This just illustrates one more time how important it is to construct a timing diagram if you really want to understand what is going on.

In the attached simulation I simply played with component values to demonstrate the principle.

Simulator web page:  http://www.falstad.com/circuit/circuitjs.html
Sim URL:  http://tinyurl.com/ybtbekk6
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 06:07:12 PM by MileHigh »

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #86 on: October 29, 2017, 08:55:15 PM »
Found this for those that do not know the wave forms.
https://www.slideshare.net/kimmimaru/waveform-ignition
Funny thing about that link,, Keshe is also on that page,,


Funny stuff about voltage run levels,, if my Mini Cooper goes above 14.2 it sets an error,, below 13 and it won't run,, then my old Chevy truck would often hit 14.7 without an issue,, it could go higher if I ran it full field and at high RPM.


Anyway,,  if you look at the waveforms you will notice that there is a much higher firing line voltage than the burn line voltage,,

Hey webby

Thanks for the scope shot thread.   Its interesting to see what others show..    Look at all the shots and then look just at the ones that make claims of what you would see if the condenser has issues.

Do you see any evidence of resonance in any of the scope shots as compared to the specific shots that claim condenser issues? Any resonance at all?

Tuned up the relay timing with the cap to get more switch open time by adding a smaller 44ohm resistor to the power in to the 160ohm relay coil. This way it takes a little time for the cap to charge up enough to to give me more contacts open time.

Adding the ballast resistor changed things a bit. It gave me something I said I have never seen before.. It is 8 8ohm resistors in parallel and measures very close to 1 ohm exactly. And thinking about the circuit a bit more has me really wondering about something with these circuits..A very perplexing issue indeed. Some thing that sort of blows my mind really. 


Will be doing the vid here after I get some eats.  It will partially vindicate brads claim thus far, but I still have 1 question and will demonstrate in the vid.


Be back in a little while...

Mags


Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #87 on: October 29, 2017, 09:30:22 PM »
This posting is the revenge of the battery and the big spark V2.0.

In my original write up I thought that during the plasma burn the battery was putting power into the plasma via the coil acting like a step-up transformer and I was wrong.  Clearly, while the capacitor is being charged up by the primary there is no burn until the "breaking point" when the secondary takes over and ignites the plasma and the core dumps its energy into the plasma via the secondary.  It's impossible for the battery to be contributing to the burn under these conditions because current has stopped flowing counter-clockwise through the loop.

Here is where the battery gets its revenge because it can still put extra energy into the core _after_ the switch opens and _before_ the plasma burn starts.`  Note however this assumes that the primary has been energized for considerably less than 5 L/R time constants and there is still room to increase the current flow in the primary.  So this may be helping give you a more energetic spark in a running engine, but not on a bench test where you are doing the switching by hand.  (This makes me think more and more that the reason you get the more energetic spark with the capacitor is because it protects the contact points from arcing and a lot of energy is lost when there is arcing across the contact points.)

Just look at the attached images.  The bottom image shows the ignition coil circuit.  Look at the battery, it is in the loop ready to push.  What happens when the switch first opens?  The capacitor acts like a short circuit.  If there is still available headroom in the core to store energy, then the battery may indeed contribute to the more robust spark by adding some extra energy to the core for a fraction of a millisecond.  This just illustrates one more time how important it is to construct a timing diagram if you really want to understand what is going on.

In the attached simulation I simply played with component values to demonstrate the principle.

Simulator web page:  http://www.falstad.com/circuit/circuitjs.html
Sim URL:  http://tinyurl.com/ybtbekk6

let me ask you something M..  Why the drastic changes in component values in your circuit sim screen shot?   I remade you circuit with your specs and I also redid it to the right with the actual component values we are specifically looking at in this thread.

Yours is once more, as I have complained to you before, that you are using padded parts values and you stopped the sim to not show the resonant ring when the switch opens.  ;)

Mags
Mags
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 11:44:14 PM by Magluvin »

Offline Grumage

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #88 on: October 29, 2017, 09:45:55 PM »
Hi Guys.

Before I went into the EE world I did my first year of Motor Vehicle Technology, CGLI. This was 40+ years ago, before all this electronic wizardry took control.

The " Condenser " was described as a device to rapidly discharge the primary on the opening of the points. This made for an improved HT spark. Also reduced arcing/pitting.

The "Ballast resistor " was fitted to some vehicles to aid cold starting. They used an ignition coil with an operating voltage of between 6 and 9 volts with the resistor in series to the supply. On initial start up the coil was hit with a full battery voltage making a really big spark but after a few seconds the ballast would heat up, increasing in resistance and lowering the voltage applied to the primary winding.

That's what I remember from my college days, I actually prefer Magneto's, but that's another story.   :) 

Cheers Grum.


Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #89 on: October 29, 2017, 10:11:50 PM »
Here is the code for Circuit Sim for the pic I have shown above, in case anyone wants to see it work for themselves

$ 1 5.0E-6 10.20027730826997 50 5.0 43
r 112 288 288 288 0 0.1
c 288 288 288 496 0 3.0E-4 -157.40087982799082
l 112 496 288 496 0 0.5 -7.8234695716679
v 112 288 112 496 0 0 40.0 100.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
w 288 496 368 496 0
s 288 288 368 288 0 1 false
w 368 496 368 288 0
w 928 496 928 288 0
s 848 288 928 288 0 1 false
w 848 496 928 496 0
v 672 288 672 496 0 0 40.0 12.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
l 672 496 848 496 0 0.0057 0.001198957437496913
c 848 288 848 496 0 1.0E-7 -12.102049132159332
r 672 288 848 288 0 1.0
o 3 128 0 291 160.0 12.8 0 -1
o 0 128 0 35 1.25 12.8 0 -1
o 10 64 0 35 20.0 12.8 1 -1
o 13 64 0 35 20.0 12.8 1 -1


Mags

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #89 on: October 29, 2017, 10:11:50 PM »

 

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