Cookies-law

Cookies help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
http://www.overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please leave this website now. Many thanks for your understanding.
Amazon Warehouse Deals ! Now even more Deep Discounts ! Check out these great prices on slightly used or just opened once only items.I always buy my gadgets via these great Warehouse deals ! Highly recommended ! Many thanks for supporting OverUnity.com this way.

DC2DC converter

Micro JouleThief

FireMatch

FireMatch

CCKnife

CCKnife

CCTool

CCTool

Magpi Magazine

Magpi Magazine Free Rasberry Pi Magazine

Battery Recondition

Battery Recondition

Arduino

Ultracaps

YT Subscribe

Gravity Machines

Tesla-Ebook

Magnet Secrets

Lindemann Video

Navigation

Products

Statistics


  • *Total Posts: 499688
  • *Total Topics: 14716
  • *Online Today: 44
  • *Most Online: 103
(December 19, 2006, 11:27:19 PM)
  • *Users: 8
  • *Guests: 220
  • *Total: 228

Facebook

Author Topic: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....  (Read 24230 times)

Offline MileHigh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7617
Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #45 on: October 27, 2017, 08:22:01 PM »
So I did more looking around, on Google and also specifically to do searches for pdfs on Google.  And I looked at YouTube clips and read several different forum board threads on this subject.

It's apparent that there is a lot of uncertainty and confusion about what the capacitor does beyond protecting the points from spark discharges and if there is a plasma-producing/sustaining resonant ring-down.  I would say only about 10% of the sources I looked at talked about a plasma-producing resonant ring-down and my confidence in the technical knowledge of those sources was fair to poor.

What I learned was the size of the capacitor will affect the ignition timing because the cap accepts the initial inrush of current when the points open and then reaches a voltage point where the current flow stops/the plasma ignites so obviously a larger capacitor will delay the onset of the ignition spark.

The ignition system we are talking about is a "Kettering ignition system" that dates from 1917 and was used in cars up until the mid-Seventies.  It was also branded as the "Delco ignition system."  It is Patent US1223180.  I was too tired to read the patent but string searches on "resonant," "resonance," "oscillation," and "ringing" show no results.

My original reference was the "Delco Remy electrical equipment" book and it looks like it originated in the 1950s and I view it as very credible.

The most credible new piece of information I found was a thesis from 1971 written for the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, California.  It's about newer capacitor discharge ignition systems but it also reviews older generations of ignition systems.  The relevant information starts on page 25.  There is no mention of a resonant  plasma-producing or plasma sustaining ring-down when discussing the actual plasma spark generation.  He does mention that the capacitor rings with the primary, but not with respect to the generation of the plasma spark.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/742933.pdf

A disadvantage of the Kettering system is that at high engine RPMs there is less time to keep the contacts closed so you get a weaker spark.  That's where dwell angle advance systems come in to compensate whick TK also made reference to.

My conclusion from looking online is that there is no plasma producing or plasma sustaining resonant ring-down between the capacitor and the ignition coil primary.  And of course I mentioned several times that you could simply check for yourself with a sniffer pick-up coil (very carefully).
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 10:23:13 PM by MileHigh »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline MileHigh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7617
Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #46 on: October 27, 2017, 08:41:39 PM »
Quoting myself:

<<< Here is a thought that occurred to me:  Is it possible that without the capacitor a hell of a lot of energy is burnt off in the points sparking when they open?  And then when you add the capacitor the elimination of the point sparking means you have more magnetic energy in the core and that's the reason you get a bigger spark?  I view that as a long-shot but you never know. >>>

I also saw several references to this online and some of them were credible.

So is this the "so simple that you were too dumb to think of it" explanation for the much stronger spark when you add the capacitor?  In other words the reason was right in front of our noses but we were bind to what we saw and heard?

If this is true then my "manufactured solution" with the "direct battery-plasma reaction" was just a bunch of hogwash because I was looking for an explanation based on the battery providing the "extra energy" for the more robust spark.

So here is the question:  Is the spark energy being greatly reduced without the capacitor because the supplied battery energy is being drained away in the arcing across the points?  The way to answer this is to do a test on the bench.

So, can anybody suggest a bench test to check for this?

I am good at this type of stuff and it took me about 20 seconds to come up with an easy test.

Offline MileHigh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7617
Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #47 on: October 27, 2017, 09:11:31 PM »
I will review the idea that I had about the "direct battery-plasma reaction."

If you ignore the other dynamics taking place, then there is a lot of reason to believe it may be valid.  It's like you can imagine the engineering department in an ignition coil manufacturer where they joke about how nobody knows about the "big secret" about the how the more robust spark is actually generated when you add the capacitor.

Case in point:  In the old 386 (486?) processor days, you had to buy an add-on "numerical coprocessor" to give the 386 floating-point capabilities.  There was a socket on every motherboard for the "numerical coprocessor."  And the truth was the "numerical coprocessor" was a complete brand new 386 with an included floating-point multiplier and when you added the new chip the original 386 was simply turned off.

So, going back to the ignition coil, what do you think happens when you connect a 12-volt battery to the primary and there is a 500-ohm resistor on the secondary?  More specifically, people that play with circuit simulation programs may want to try something, and it would be easy if there is already an ignition coil model.  Or you make one with a primary, core, secondary with 100x the turns of the primary, and coupling coefficients and all that stuff.

If you did a simulation where for say three milliseconds you connected an ideal voltage source of 12 volts to the primary, and you had a 500-ohm resistor on the secondary what would you get?  Well, (1200/500) equals 2.4 amps into a 500 ohm resistor which is 1200 watts on the secondary.  So that means (1200/12) = 100 amps drawn on the primary.

Because three milliseconds is a relatively short time, I don't think the ignition coil core wold have any saturation issues.  But, all of that could be checked on the simulator.  This all has to do with how a transformer reacts to a "step function" of x seconds with a load on the secondary.  It can't pass the step function from the primary to the secondary indefinitely, because transformers don't work with DC.  But a three millisecond pulse is a different story.

So there might still be some life in the "direct battery-plasma reaction" and one more time I believe that this can be confirmed with a very simple bench test.  So any ideas for a test?

Offline Magluvin

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5744
Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #48 on: October 27, 2017, 11:07:28 PM »
I have been fishing around online.  Now I am going to sort of play devil's advocate.

http://classicmechanic.blogspot.ca/2011/03/ignition.html

Here is a comment from somebody:

<<< Bingo! The condenser is connected across the points. When the points closs, the condenser voltage is clamped at zero, and current from the battery "charges" (via a building magnetic field), the primary side of the coil. When this is complete, the current flowing through the coil is now constant. When the points close ((MH:  He means open)), the condenser has two functions. One is to shunt the current which because of the collapsing primary coil sides magnetic field, wants to continue to flow, and would otherwise arc and quickly ruin the points. This probably wouldn't be a danger, because without the condenser, the ignition won't work. The condenser is charged up (voltage wise), by the current flowing from the coil because of the energy stored in the now collapsing magnetic field. This current flow quickly charges the capacitor, and then the capacitor then sends current back to the coil. This continues with each back and forth current swing being smaller. This is called wringing  ((MH: ringing)). The first cycle or longer (at a certain frequency), is what induces a corresponding (but higher) voltage and current that creates the spark at the spark plus. So the condenser protects the points from arcing, and allows a rapid and oscillating discharge of the primary coil, and that is necessary for generating a strong spark. Without the condenser, the spark would be weak or not even there. F on the schematic, F on the explanation.  >>

So, he thinks there is resonance and is basically confirming what you are saying.  So let's examine this more closely.

Would you agree that it's the core of the ignition coil that is the main energy storage component and the capacitor is not a major player in the energy storage?  You have made references to the "tiny capacitor" so I think that you would.

This guy says the cap charges up, and then rings down with the primary and you get a more robust spark.  If this is true then with your plasma sensor loop connected to your scope channel you would have to see a decaying oscillation.  This assumes the plasma stays "lit" the whole time as you get the ring-down that sustains the spark.  In other words, the ringing has to be fast enough such that the plasma stays lit the whole time.  If the plasma goes off and then on, that represents sharp on-off switching of the current and you should see a series of "ticks" on the plasma sensor loop.  Let's assume either way is perfecty viable.

Now here is the problem:  If there is a sustained but decreasing level of magnetic energy in the core then any ringing doesn't make sense.  The reason I am saying this is as follows:  Okay, the cap is charged to it's maximum voltage and it's time to change direction of the current flow.  Well, when the cap discharges into the primary, you will simply get magnetic flux cancellation inside the core with "north" annihilating "south."  So the capacitor would simply "magnetically short itself out" when it tried to reverse the direction of the current flow and discharge.  You would simply reduce the magnetic energy in the core by a chunk.

So what are we left with?  The only thing we are left with is that the capacitor can only reverse the current direction and "swing back" after the initial plasma burn is done and the core has been completely drained of magnetic energy.  And now you face a problem if you assume that the magnetic core of the ignition coil can store way way more energy than the capacitor, even when the capacitor is charged to 300 volts.  And note on the first "swing back" the capacitor has to do several things, 1) pump power into the core that is immediately burned off in the plasma burn, and 2) recharge the battery.  It really sounds like it's not going to fly.

So the conundrum is that the capacitor is "tiny" and is only really there to protect the points.  It's not supposed to be a big energy storage device to sustain three or five or ten "resonance cycles."

Here is a thought that occurred to me:  Is it possible that without the capacitor a hell of a lot of energy is burnt off in the points sparking when they open?  And then when you add the capacitor the elimination of the point sparking means you have more magnetic energy in the core and that's the reason you get a bigger spark?  I view that as a long-shot but you never know.

I still say the fat spark has to get its extra energy from the battery and that could be confirmed through measurements.

Again - there are lots of problems with the supposed resonance mechanism when you examine it.  And right now I am doing the thinking work that you are supposed to be doing.  I don't think you are thinking things through.

If you use a nice spring-loaded SPST switch like I said and then get nice consistent small sparks without the cap and nice consistent big fat sparks with the cap, then you can use the sensor coil near the HV output like I said.  If you get a decaying sinusoid during the fat sparks, or a series of fast ticks during the fat sparks, that would tell you right away that resonance is in play.  If you get a single "on tick" and a single "off tick" that would tell you that the plasma burn is a single unidirectional pulse of current.  One more time, you should be thinking of this stuff by yourself.

Will get back to the rest of this post tonight, but looking at the page link you have provided, I have serious issues with the circuit they present...

First off, they have a conductor shorting the capacitor.   And the cap is not across the switch!! lol  like I said before, possibly in PM and not here yet, there are a lot of ign circuits that are totally incorrect online. And this is just 1 example of such...

Mags

Offline Magluvin

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5744
Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #49 on: October 27, 2017, 11:19:25 PM »
Just approved your 3 new posts MH.  Brad will just do it anyway soo.... Whatever..

Go ahead and post freely.  Ive accomplished my point here and I may not be able to go over them all or even reply to them if it is going to be tons of them. 

But go ahead and fill the pages as you like and all of the important stuff will be left behind in the beginning pages.. That was the big reason I wanted to moderate these threads from the beginning. But now you have brad to set you free and do what you do so well... 

I will talk to Stefan about a new topic where I have moderation privileges alone once Im ready to show what we really can do with resonance... Just to keep the real important stuff threads clean. ;)

Mags
« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 01:39:05 AM by Magluvin »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #49 on: October 27, 2017, 11:19:25 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline MileHigh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7617
Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #50 on: October 27, 2017, 11:47:30 PM »
I don't really have much more to say.  I don't believe there is resonance like you believe and it's up to you if you want to do my suggested tests or do tests of your own to prove your case.  And I am hinting at some simple tests at the end in the form of a pop quiz.  Can you develop some simple tests to answer some basic questions?

And you may be making a classic mistake where you call reduced losses in the circuit a "gain."

Offline Magluvin

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5744
Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #51 on: October 28, 2017, 01:37:36 AM »
I don't really have much more to say.  I don't believe there is resonance like you believe and it's up to you if you want to do my suggested tests or do tests of your own to prove your case.  And I am hinting at some simple tests at the end in the form of a pop quiz.  Can you develop some simple tests to answer some basic questions?

And you may be making a classic mistake where you call reduced losses in the circuit a "gain."

Lol   Bah, your suggested tests?  After you put together your imaginary full of garbage explanation of the circuit post(first one I approve for you in this thread), you think I should follow your lead in a test??

Im not going to waste my time on a test that is padded and loaded to block any resonance that could be had.  Just as you did in your full explanation of the circuit.

If you want to call it a reduced loss, Im fine with that.  It is still a gain by way of reducing the loss. The inherent loses  of the circuit without the cap are what they are. Losses .  lol. Your words are a treasure for me to use against you.

I wont block any of your posts here. You now are officially back in the forum..  But now you will have to msg brad to approve your posts from here on in. I will not moderate this thread, one way or another any longer. Im now just waiting for brads description of how the circuit works. I want to see where he goes with it... If he is on the same page as you, then I will reply with due diligence..

Congratulations, you have the stage. ;) Happy mucking.  ;D

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #51 on: October 28, 2017, 01:37:36 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline tinman

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5016
Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #52 on: October 28, 2017, 02:18:41 AM »
The main point of the thread, stated in the first sentence of the first post, was to talk about how resonance in this circuit can give a gain.

But hey, why wait to explain your knowledge.  As Tesla said, there is no better time than now.

Maybe I havnt put it all in order of operation, and is spread out among posts, but there was a reason for that in my arguments as I go along. If MH has his version that is suppose to be correct and my reasons are not, then why give him all there is to know on my end, when he says I dont know at all what is going on? The end result is the cap increases the coils efficiency without a cap in place where it should be.. See MH first thought that the system didnt have a cap at all, and that I added it as a modification. So I let him ride with that. So initially I could tell he knew nothing about them. But then he applied his thoughts to it and came up with a page of things that had to be argued as it was bad in many places.


So please give us your version.  It would be on topic. If you think I dont know for sure how the process works then please correct me. if you have read it all then you should know my version. I dont think it will change the fact that the cap oscillating with the primary after the switch is open helps us get a much better spark in all aspects by way of resonance.  Resonance doesnt give us anything more MH is claiming, and he further tried to deny that resonance even exists in the circuit in his theory, and even ignored the inductance effects in the whole of his explanation other than there is transformer action and thats it, let alone also ignoring the fact that when the switch is open that the primary due to its own field collapes currents will charge the cap to possibly over 100v( some ign systems from around the world have differing results on that) to initiate the LC ring. Thats why I had said the resonance is initiated by the primary otherwise how would the cap get it high potential to begin with.

Mags

Mags

In regards to your comment that i would only approve MHs comments anyway-->only if his comment was on topic,and of a descent nature.
I hardly ever get on the forums anymore anyway.

Ok,regarding the topic at hand.

The condenser serves many purposes,and here is one to think about.

We all know that if we remove the condenser ,we get very erratic engine running--back firing through the carby-and all sorts.
But how could the timing be that advanced that it would backfire through the carby?..

First thing to do,would to be to look at the ignition coil,which is just a transformer--what is it's rated output voltage?
Most are between 30,000-40,000 volt's
So,the average supply voltage(battery voltage) when an engine is running,is around 14.4 volts.
Lets say our coil is one of the 30,000 volt one's.
The average turn ratio in an ignition coil is around 100:1

So in a transformer sense,100 x 14.4 would give us a voltage of 1440v at the secondary when the points close.-->Remember,we are talking about normal transformer voltage produced here,and not flyback voltage produced across the secondary--which is where the 30,000 volts comes from.

Most plug gaps are between 1 and 1.2mm
It takes 1000v per mm to form an arc within the environment of the engine cylinder  ;)

What roll dose the condenser play here in this one example?.


Brad

Offline MileHigh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7617
Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #53 on: October 28, 2017, 02:54:07 AM »
Quote
Im not going to waste my time on a test that is padded and loaded to block any resonance that could be had.

Change the ugly knife switch for a spring-loaded SPST switch to get a better more consistent spark with and without the capacitor and use a sniffer coil to check what is going on with the ignition spark on the secondary output.  That's a "padded and loaded" test?

Offline Magluvin

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5744
Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #54 on: October 28, 2017, 03:53:11 AM »
Mags

In regards to your comment that i would only approve MHs comments anyway-->only if his comment was on topic,and of a descent nature.
I hardly ever get on the forums anymore anyway.

Ok,regarding the topic at hand.

The condenser serves many purposes,and here is one to think about.

We all know that if we remove the condenser ,we get very erratic engine running--back firing through the carby-and all sorts.
But how could the timing be that advanced that it would backfire through the carby?..

First thing to do,would to be to look at the ignition coil,which is just a transformer--what is it's rated output voltage?
Most are between 30,000-40,000 volt's
So,the average supply voltage(battery voltage) when an engine is running,is around 14.4 volts.
Lets say our coil is one of the 30,000 volt one's.
The average turn ratio in an ignition coil is around 100:1

So in a transformer sense,100 x 14.4 would give us a voltage of 1440v at the secondary when the points close.-->Remember,we are talking about normal transformer voltage produced here,and not flyback voltage produced across the secondary--which is where the 30,000 volts comes from.

Most plug gaps are between 1 and 1.2mm
It takes 1000v per mm to form an arc within the environment of the engine cylinder  ;)

What roll dose the condenser play here in this one example?.


Brad

Well I suppose that it was just coincidence that you happened by to approve MHS posts(2 out of 3 of them at first, then a bit later approving the 3rd one, that happened to be in between the first approved initially). That has me thinking he asked you to do so. And then said"hey you forgot one!! ::) ::) Like super man you appear, after what you say "I hardly ever get on the forums anymore anyway."  Just sayin.... ::)
Do as you wish. It is your responsibility here now. Im out on the moderation thing in this whole topic. Its all yours. Do as you will... Or is it Mhs will...


First thing I see, Is you come here as some authority on this, claiming that you havnt seen anyone fully describe the circuit yet. Well then if you are really 'in the know' about these ignition systems as they really should be, then 'you should know' that there is suppose to be a ballast resistor in series with the primary which would bring the actual coil voltage down to 6-7v, not this 14.4v as you clearly state here.  So you dont know what your talking about either. ;) Otherwise you would clearly know that the voltage across the coil could never be 14.4v as you stated it should be. And then you do some 100:1 calculations and so on.   ::) The only thing you got right there was the 100 to 1 ratio. Thats not hard to find in a quick search....



So what kind of alternators do you guys have down under that 14.4v is an average supply voltage?  Most that I see are 14v and under, closer to 13.5v. Have not seen any that do above 15v(unless it is a special after market unit that gives that), what you would say here, above average voltage. ::) ::) Anyway, I just wonder. Maybe they are that way there.. ill look it up 'to see for myself'. ;)


So now we get to the meat... 


"So in a transformer sense,100 x 14.4 would give us a voltage of 1440v at the secondary when the points close.-->Remember,we are talking about normal transformer voltage produced here,and not flyback voltage produced across the secondary--which is where the 30,000 volts comes from.

Most plug gaps are between 1 and 1.2mm
It takes 1000v per mm to form an arc within the environment of the engine cylinder  ;)

What roll dose the condenser play here in this one example?."


So ok. we will go with your professional opinion that the voltage across the primary is fantasy land 14.4v. If your still ok with that.. ??? ;)

Now you say that when the switch closes and we are now putting 14.4 fantasy volts across the primary, and that the normal transformer would produce the also fantasy 1440v at the secondary output, AND then your "Most plug gaps are between 1 and 1.2mm", AND your "It takes 1000v per mm to form an arc", Then why does the spark not occur when the points close and only appear when the points open? ??? ??? ??? ?? Clearly you are stating that the gap in the spark plug is the proper distance of 1-1.2mm and that 1000v can jump 1mm and the sec develops 1440v that should be able to jump that gap of 1mm and even 1.2mm!!!  Did you read that?? Read it again! 

lol  You do not know what you claim to know brad. Simple as that you do not know.  ;) ;) It is just MH bullshit from start to finish... Do you still stand buy all that you have said here? ??? ??


So dont ever come into MY thread and tell me how it is, acting as if I dont know, unless you really know what your talking about. Because I will tear it up with your own words just like I did with MH. 


So then you finally say "What roll dose the condenser play here in this one example?."

From what I just exposed of your supposed authoritative knowledge on this subject, and you with all your vids on gas engines and such, I have no idea where you are going with that last question of "What roll dose the condenser play here in this one example?."  No idea at all.  Even if you had it right in all the other parts of your post, Im still at large with your question of the caps roll here by going on your supposed in depth description.    ::) ::) ::)

Your description is full of holes and far from complete as to ask that last question and and expect an answer based on the rest of your description. More MH handywork. ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)


Ever since you had the problems that occurred for you because of your presenting info on you rotary transformer, you appear to be someone else now. You are not the same guy I once respected here before all that. I dont know exactly what happened then, but I do know some. But what ever it was and however hard it hit you, you are a different guy now.  Since then I have seen you do this same thing you have done here in your post. You barge in and slap down some stuff that just aint right at all and say its conclusive, move along folks, nothing more to see here. And I truly believe your conversations here on this would end on that note if I hadnt put you in your place just now..

Sorry brad, but it is what it is..

Mags

edit   Was saving this to blow away a response to this post, but couldnt wait  ;D
The rest of my reply is at the top of the next page...
http://overunity.com/17482/the-old-standard-ignition-system-battery-coil-points-and-condenser/msg512321/#msg512321
« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 11:17:05 AM by Magluvin »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #54 on: October 28, 2017, 03:53:11 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Magluvin

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5744
Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #55 on: October 28, 2017, 03:59:39 AM »
I see your post waiting for approval MH. You will have to wait for your side kick brad to approve your posts from now on.  Im not really interested in your bullshit side winder talk any longer. So sit and wait for your buddy to come to your beck and call.   Im done here with you.  Clearly a waste of time putting this thread up for your twisting of reality as you have shown in your description of this circuit..

Mags

Offline Magluvin

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5744
Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #56 on: October 28, 2017, 04:02:47 AM »
You have brad do your tests MH.  Im not doing anything for you.  Just a simple response to your yet to be approved post.

Mags

Offline Magluvin

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5744
Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #57 on: October 28, 2017, 04:12:42 AM »
One thing i am going to do here in MY thread daily, starting tomorrow, is post the links to MHs and brads descriptions and the links to my replys after the fact. Just so they dont get lost in the mess you are using to cover those up as people forget soon enough. Right M?? 8) Well Im going to keep reminding the readers, every day... And if Brad moderates ME because of it? I will have a nice discussion on this with Stefan and get brad off of moderation here. With all the facts of what is going on, Im sure I can make that happen.  ;)

I have made screen shots of the posts and page saves that i talk about above. So if brad does a hilary clinton and 'wipes' the thread of all that, I still have the proof that it existed.. I take that idea from Tk. He does that also, and some others.

Mags

Offline Magluvin

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5744
Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #58 on: October 28, 2017, 06:05:07 AM »
I was going to save this in case there is a rebuttal to my reply to brad..  But I just cant contain it any longer  ;D ;D ;D ;D   See I do this stuff, like leaving out the balast resistor functions of basically cutting the battery voltage in half for the primary, not commenting on this what I present below of the part of brads post I didnt cover in my reply, so that when the discussion goes on, I have ultimate ammo for my later posts and destroy the target. Ive been doing that for years here and it works very well..   Its not unfair that I do so. Its smart.  If others like Mh and in this case brad, wants to do technical knowledge battle on this field, then I will use this strategy and their own words to beat them..  Truly i dont wish for these battles. But they do occur for many of us.. So take that as a piece of advice when you are arguing something you really know about and someone disputes it. If they do have it all wrong, you will win the battle with these 2 strategical technical battle methods every time. ;) ;)

Notice i didnt say anything to this in brads post....

"Ok,regarding the topic at hand.

The condenser serves many purposes,and here is one to think about.

We all know that if we remove the condenser ,we get very erratic engine running--back firing through the carby-and all sorts.
But how could the timing be that advanced that it would backfire through the carby?.."


This is the reason for the question that is in the end of brads post.....

"What roll dose the condenser play here in this one example?"

What he is trying to imply is that there would be a spark when the points close.  Again,  "What roll dose the condenser play here in this one example?

This has MH all over it to make up a fantasy reason for the cap to say it does something other than help give resonance to the system just like Mh did in his first post!!  Exactly the same motive!! MH splattered all over it. ;) Follow me hear....

The statement was  "We all know that if we remove the condenser ,we get very erratic engine running--back firing through the carby-and all sorts.
But how could the 'timing' be that advanced that it would backfire through the carby?.."

All to suggest that there would be a spark when the points close for the reasons brad described later in the post. He is saying specifically about the timing advance as if the spark did occur when the switch closed, it would be sparking way before the compression stroke completes.. Well then, how does the cap solve that issue if the cap is shorted by the closed points switch? ??? ??  That is what the questions answer is suppose to conclude, that the cap helps in some way to prevent this spark when the contacts close and the secondary 'supposedly' gives a spark!!!!.. ;) ;) ;)   Huge fail and MH has his twisting little finger prints all over it and still cant get it right trying to do so just like in his first post here that I approved for discussion.  And then I destroyed him. lol ;D

Those in the know of this circuit should agree 110%. 

Brad, the only way out of this mess is to admit that MH came up with the whole thing and you posted it as your own thoughts.  I know that you 'should' know better than this..   ;)   So here is your chance at an out here..  How do I know that MH came up with that twisted concoction?  Ive been here for 10 years and had a 'Lot' of experience dealing with him twisting things so badly that I just tear it up with his own words just like I did with your post and with his post.  It has his "the cap cannot oscillate with the primary no way no how" all over it just like his earlier description...By way of misdirection. By way of diversion tactics.... I would bet my membership here on this.. ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

But brad, if your sticking to your post as is, then Ill be waiting for your reply to explain it some how some way to make it right without changing anything.  Been here for what few hours now, rereading and rereading it all including my reply to be absolutely positive on this..  I got it right and you simply do not know what your talking about period. And that is sad if it is so..

Mags
« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 11:27:10 AM by Magluvin »

Offline Magluvin

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5744
Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #59 on: October 28, 2017, 10:05:18 AM »
Ya know what people? I have in the past suggested MH is an anti free energy shill. He does not like it in the least and freaks out about it. Well this whole thing here is just one example of why I have had those thoughts....

Think.  Lets say some of you do agree that the cap and primary do oscillate to produce a longer and more powerful spark.  Why is it that MH will go to great lengths to dispute this fact? Why if in his supposed genius big description of how the circuit works, completely and utterly destroys any idea that there would be any AC currents happening in the circuits operation what so ever. In his description there was no inductive actions of the primary in series with the cap when the switch is open and the cap would only ever see max voltage of 12vdc only, equal to the battery voltage meanwhile insists there is NEVER any AC, and the cap is an AC cap that is rated above 100 volts at least and max ive seen is 600vac range Because he is not as good at this stuff like he says he is? Nah. He knows exactly what he is doing. Correct him on that and it doesnt even phase him. He will conjure up another diversion tactic explanation to be completely absent of any resonant oscillations between the cap and primary and also even try to invent other ways of the reason for the cap, and those reasons so far are so ridiculous he has brad saying the cap while across a just closed switch will stop the spark that happens when you close the switch!!! Its so terrible that brad I believe will either not come back here or he will have to own up to the fact that it was all MHs words of purposeful misinformation just so brad can save brads own reputation. Im very comfortable and confident that this will occur. Brad gets up about 4am and comes and reads this and we will see. I seriously dont think brad has any other choice. I dont think brad came up with that scheme. Or is he shilling also? Nah that post is all MHs format, all of what brad wrote. Dont understand why he did that. If MH has it his way, as brads post goes "The condenser serves many purposes,and here is one to think about" he will give any other possible reasons for the cap being in the circuit, even making stuff up that makes no sense at all, thinking none of us would be the wiser, to completely avoid any possibilities of resonance in the circuit..  Darn tootin it was Mhs words.. ;) ;) Brad is way smarter than that. But again why this? ???

If MH is is so good at this stuff, then why cant he see the possibilities of an LC oscillation after the switch opens? Why cant he see that the field that the primary produced in the first place with the switch closed and then when it opens can induce the primary just as good as it would the secondary and pump the hundreds of volts rated cap up to more than 12v at some point in the cycle of operation?? Why imply as in brads post that the cap somehow prevents a spark on the secondary, when we ALL should know this particular spark when the switch closes cannot happen and it does not happen and will only happen when the switch opens, and suggest that the spark is killed off by a cap that is shorted by the same closed switch at the time the supposed spark is suppose to happen as described in brads post? ??? ??? MH THINKS WE ARE ALL STUPID! WE WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO WORK OUT THE ISSUE OF HIS BS DESCRIPTION! Diversion tactics. And if one doesnt work out and he is fully called on it, he comes up with an even stupider one. And then another one and another one.. Its all about keeping on the heat no matter if he is caught in the act, then just come up with a new attack again and again, etc ,etc It is all about destroying the idea of resonance because it does provide a gain as I claim. Every single time I have brought up resonance in the past he has interjected and fights it to a brutal end. He IS an anti free energy shill. I mean hey, if my claim that resonance can give us an appreciable gain is not correct, then he should be able to debunk my claim easily with real circuit descriptions without any flaws, if he is so smart. ;) If I am wrong then brad should be able to debunk my claim very easily also. brad has a scope, works with engines, Im sure he has a coil and proper condenser around. But brad was shilled into posting what he did. maybe the issue brad had with the rotary transformer put him into a position that this is what he does now. I would hope not. Idont know. I like brad. but this here went way overboard and I have to stand my ground. When I posted that he may post his idea of the workings of the circuit, I did say that i would like to see just that, I knew i could beat it because that is how much i know Im right here, and I did just that.   I hope that is not the case and he says he posted what MH was asking him to and didnt pay attn to what it was all about.  I really hope that is the case, because Brads post has just as many seriously bad flaws as MHs post does.

But no. MH cannot debunk my claim legitimately.Cant do it. He has to twist his so called analysis to a point of impossibilities and fantastical functions and operations to try and do so and fail again and again, it is never ending. Cant come up with 1 GOOD reason why my claim is bad. Cant make a clean actual working circuit that explains his end. There is always 1 or more serious problems. And when I bust him on it he makes up another one and still acts as he knows it all and i know nothing. Again, it has to be he is a shill.. Such great lengths to no end.  Gotta be a paycheck at the end of that string he is tied to. If not, then he is just a whack job to the extreme. lol

He at time says he is just here to help people understand electronics and that none of us know anything.  But he cant even admit there is an oscillation between the primary and the cap when the primary dumps its collapse currents into the cap. Simple stuff. He will use the diversion tactic to reduce the possibility to nill to instill this into the reader minds, as can clearly be seen in his first post on this thread, and run off the presenter of the idea with a constant barrage of posts that just overthrow the threads to being useless. Well Im not running away from it like he would wish. Read his first post on the second page.  Its completely devoid of any inductive actions other than the transformer action and that is it. LITERALLY anything to avoid an inkling of the cap being anything but a pathway for the battery alone to "pump" (his words) the primary through the .14uf cap and the cap only ever sees 12v max. Charge the cap to 200v and dump that across the primary. You will get a spark. 12v aint gunna cut it. Its just insane at this point. Respect his knowledge?? lol he knows exactly what he is trying to convince everyone here of. He knows.. If he keeps claiming he is so smart and nobody can even compare, then why would he get this all wrong over and over and over each time he tries? He isnt as smart as he says??  lol it is the other way around, He knows exactly what he is saying, and trying to rely on his statements that nobody here knows anything. Here is an example of that for pms the other day.....

This one is a reply to me...

"Yeah, you don't know shit.  You have been asked to explain the resonance mechanism and you can't do it.  You are unable to explain how a simple circuit with five lousy components works.  I think at this point that all of us would think because of the intensity of the debate that for sure you hooked your scope up to the primary of the coil to see what you would find.  You hooked it up and you tested it for sure.  You had to have done that, it simply doesn't make sense any other way.  And if you saw your holy grail of resonance you would have posted the clip right away and declared victory.  But you didn't see resonance and because you lie and you are unethical, you are doing the only thing you can do now in a vain and pathetic attempt to save face.  And that is to chicken out and lie again and put on airs that you can't be bothered and it's "obviously" a done deal.  It's pathetic and you have reduced yourself to the level of a hapless clown.

You literally cannot cope with saying that you did not find resonance.  You would have an internal mini nervous breakdown if you did - you are blocked.  So the little lying sleazy weasel kicks in because that's the only thing you can do to "escape."  You are pathetic, dude.  Your self-programming is a complete and utter disaster.

You want to prove me wrong that you are not some emotional cripple that doesn't have the guts to back up his claim that he stated over and over?

Then do the test like Carroll and myself are asking for, the simple test that you know you should do and is very easy to do - as per the way things work around here.  Show us how smart you are."



Well firstly at the end, I spoke to carrol on Mh contacting him to post his theory on my thread. Carrol said he had gotten that request but did not reply as he was busy and on the road. And said he will not post it for him. ;) So Mh lies.  Ill ask Carrol to verify that talk between me and him. or any of you can pm him for that answer for your selves. I dare ya. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Unethical??? Well lets see what carrol has to say about that.   ;) ;D

Man not showing the scope shot really has his panties in a bundle. As in, his undergarments all entangled in his crack.  The shots are coming. You probably think I dont know how to use my scope and didnt see it due to some issue or whatever and are counting on that idea so you perpetuate your stance until..... BOOM  your head pops off.  lol  Scared ya that I so far said it showed AC and higher voltages that 12v dc didnt it. lol  Sit on that a bit. Your world is going to change overnight.  ;)

But look how he tries to rip any possibility of resonance(oscillations between the cap and primary) to shreds.

Says in first line "Yeah, you don't know shit.  You have been asked to explain the resonance mechanism and you can't do it. "  Well i have been explaining it since before I opened the thread, which is before he says he AND carrol are asking.  lol carrol knows nothing of this.  ;) Any lengths to hurt my standing on this. Even using carrols name without his knowledge of such, and now he has used brad, and I have to be sure of it from all I have explained here so far.

Here is one to me in pm after the one above....

Well I just asked Carroll if he would post my explanation which will be written in proper technical English when discussing electronics, something that you clearly cannot do.  So when you say, "You cannot even come up with a reason why the circuit has more output with the cap than without," you are lying.  You know you are lying, and we all know that you are lying.  And you make the "condenser play" for something like the third or fourth time.  One more time, you are lying.  You are either a compulsive liar or a pathological liar."

Lol lies then calls me a liar.. thats rich isnt it? How many times here did he make YOU READ that I am a liar??  He is not just instilling the statement, He is installing it. The power of suggestion. Shill tactics 101. Get everyone to believe what you say by saying it again and again and again..... I read a lot of books on hypnosis in my early 20s. If anyone wants to know why, ask and I will post it. Its longer than I want to put here in this post. So ask and I will share that.



Then to me again...

"Now that I have asked Carroll to post my explanation in the thread you are either just balking and being irrational now that you know I am going to write it up, or you are alleging that I have found something online.  You are just lying some more.  And I think you are freaking out a bit because you have been stating all along that I have no analysis and I am bluffing.  You are probably dreading seeing me show you up for the bad and sad clown that you are.

I have been doing circuit analysis on this forum for YEARS and I have rock-solid integrity.  You're a fucking mental case."

He will stop at nothing and lie again and again.  After he reads this, lets see if he can get carrol to confirm any of his involvement as MH suggests.  It will not happen because carrol is not in this with him at all. I know. If any of you reading know him, send a message and ask him.. I will be vindicated and MH will be the liar here. bet on that 100%  lol its just too much ya know?

And then what he says of his years of circuit analysis here??? Well how many fantasy circuit descriptions does he have to come up with to debunk me before this years of circuit analysis becomes apparent to us the readers? ??? ??? ??? ??? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;) ;) ;)   Like I said, I beat him with his own words successfully. A lot!   ;D He gives me all the ammo I need. Its almost too simple, but I have also been here for about 8  9hrs straight. Why? Because it is important that people here know about this. Im not saving my ass. Im helping yours. Didnt save my ass at all. This shop stool is killing me right now.  :( ;D



And here is another one to me after that.. Notice that I have not shown the scope shots yet? lol Remember the 2 strategies for fighting the technical knowledge battles I spoke of earlier?  Well that one is still in the ammo box.  ;) ;D Just waiting for the specific target to be in my sights. I dont care at this point if I say this here. Mh will just pawn it off after reading this as I dont have the shots that shows resonant oscillations, until I do show them.. Then things will change.  You will see this soon. ;)
Lol he even says that even if his analysis is wrong "it's going to make you look and feel like a little clueless peon."  Oh really?  If anyone agrees with that then you need to reread his fake news analysis and then my reply on the second page here very carefully and tell me what you see then.

"Now, are you going to share the fact (that I am almost certain of) that you found NO RESONANCE with your peers on the thread and you are up a creek without a paddle?  Your pregnant pause is about to break water.  Are you going to try to use your noggin by talking with your peers and figure out what your scope shots are really telling you?  Or are you just going to play the sassy dumb ass bitch with attitude like a clown?
And when my analysis does get posted, even if it's wrong, it's going to make you look and feel like a little clueless peon.

Hey Magsy wagsy, how does the resonance work to make the spark stronger?  Doh!  It's LC resonance!  That's the ticket and that's the explanation and I'm sticking too it.  10 bloody years of working on the bench and lusting over resonance and that's all you got?  The forum has people just above background noise, and after 10 YEARS you are about 2 dB above background noise.  Keep winding those coils."


It goes on and on. All to try and debunk a claim that resonance give us a gain. And he takes it all the way and claims that there is no resonance at all.. nuts But not nuts.  He is shilling to the max on this.  This is my solid opinion and Ive said it many times over the years..   

Finally, this I predict. When I do the scope vid and show, he will say Im doing it all wrong and make all these different ways to put the scope with added parts for the benefit of the best scope shot reading, meanwhile the extra parts config will  kill off the resonance by way of the funked up design of the so called correct way to use the scope here, that will not show the resonance OR say that what we see is nothing but artifacts and it proves nothing.  lol been there before. I know..  On sunday I will show that prediction come to life.  ;D   ooo this is gunna be fun
Ok im tired and beat, And MH is a shill.  lol Tried to edit this as well as possible. Been here since 8pm doing all these posts looking over it all multiple times and it is now 402 am.  So there may still be some errors.

mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #59 on: October 28, 2017, 10:05:18 AM »

 

Share this topic to your favourite Social and Bookmark site

Please SHARE this topic at:


OneLink