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Author Topic: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....  (Read 13934 times)

Offline norman6538

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2017, 01:39:01 PM »
As a young boy I was told that the purpose of the condenser was to prevents the points
from burning and that is one feature of Tesla's great circuit.
But what the spark plug needs is high voltage to jump the gap
and part of that comes from the primary secondary voltage increase
and part of that high voltage comes from the backemf which is greater than the
battery 12v which goes out of the coil and into the condenser where it gets
recycled again and again so the spark will jump the gap and get repeated
in the resonate circuit many times over.

If you hold your fingers on a 12v battery you will not get shocked but
if you hold each hand to a broken section of a wire and touch them
together and they are powering a coil or motor coil when you disconnect
them you will get shocked because of the backemf because its way over 12v
from the battery.

A very clever and very efficient circuit that works everyday for millions of folks
and for millions of sparks...

But the real question is can we get anything extra out of this circuit like the Bedini
school girl circuit other than the excellent spark we want?

Norman

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2017, 02:19:15 PM »
As a young boy I was told that the purpose of the condenser was to prevents the points
from burning and that is one feature of Tesla's great circuit.
But what the spark plug needs is high voltage to jump the gap
and part of that comes from the primary secondary voltage increase
and part of that high voltage comes from the backemf which is greater than the
battery 12v which goes out of the coil and into the condenser where it gets
recycled again and again so the spark will jump the gap and get repeated
in the resonate circuit many times over.

If you hold your fingers on a 12v battery you will not get shocked but
if you hold each hand to a broken section of a wire and touch them
together and they are powering a coil or motor coil when you disconnect
them you will get shocked because of the backemf because its way over 12v
from the battery.

A very clever and very efficient circuit that works everyday for millions of folks
and for millions of sparks...

But the real question is can we get anything extra out of this circuit like the Bedini
school girl circuit other than the excellent spark we want?

Norman

Have you read the speaker thread?  One more time....'

First we have to start with an already efficient system. Then we apply resonance.  If you did read the other thread, it provides infor on how to increase efficiency beyond 100%, and then we can add resonance to acquire more efficiency.

Have you seen a bedini that outputs more than in?

Mags


Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2017, 02:23:14 PM »
Hey MH

Got a lot to do today so cant go over your posts just yet.  Ill be back later to see what you have there. 


Mags

Offline tinman

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2017, 02:31:07 PM »
Well,after reading the whole thread,i see that no one as yet has fully explained as to how the simple points ignition system works  :o

Will keep an eye on this thread,to see how long it takes for the whole story to be put together.


Brad


Offline norman6538

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2017, 02:33:46 PM »
Mags said
Have you read the speaker thread? 

No, do not have time today.

One more time....'

First we have to start with an already efficient system. Then we apply resonance.  If you did read the other thread, it provides infor on how to increase efficiency beyond 100%, and then we can add resonance to acquire more efficiency.

Have you seen a bedini that outputs more than in?

No, where is that? thanks
Norman

Mags   

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2017, 02:33:46 PM »
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Offline norman6538

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2017, 02:35:09 PM »
Well,after reading the whole thread,i see that no one as yet has fully explained as to how the simple points ignition system works  :o

Will keep an eye on this thread,to see how long it takes for the whole story to be put together.


Brad

Brad, do you know? I pretty much had to teach myself over the years.


Norman

Offline webby1

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2017, 03:35:07 PM »

My 2 cents worth,,


There are 2 spark gaps,, One you want to spark and the other you don't want to spark ( in this case it is arcing across the points).


In my experience the condenser has 2 objectives, one was to reduce the arc across the points and the other was to provide for a faster cutt-off time for the current in the primary.


It takes time for the points to open,, there is a ramp on the lobe,, so the points are making contact and then in a relative fashion they open slowly,, the rate of sepperation depends on the lobe shape, points arm length and the RPM.


If the condenser is to small then it is charged before the points gap is large enough to stop arcing,, if it is to big then it takes to long for the cap to charge and stop current flow in the primary and then it will hold onto to much charge and arc across the points as they are closing.  Both of these can lead to a weaker spark and short points life.


Voltage is created by rate of change of flux, so the more abrupt the stoppage of current flow in the primary the bigger the spark out of the secondary.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2017, 03:35:07 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2017, 04:48:37 PM »
Well,after reading the whole thread,i see that no one as yet has fully explained as to how the simple points ignition system works  :o

Will keep an eye on this thread,to see how long it takes for the whole story to be put together.


Brad

The main point of the thread, stated in the first sentence of the first post, was to talk about how resonance in this circuit can give a gain.

But hey, why wait to explain your knowledge.  As Tesla said, there is no better time than now.

Maybe I havnt put it all in order of operation, and is spread out among posts, but there was a reason for that in my arguments as I go along. If MH has his version that is suppose to be correct and my reasons are not, then why give him all there is to know on my end, when he says I dont know at all what is going on? The end result is the cap increases the coils efficiency without a cap in place where it should be.. See MH first thought that the system didnt have a cap at all, and that I added it as a modification. So I let him ride with that. So initially I could tell he knew nothing about them. But then he applied his thoughts to it and came up with a page of things that had to be argued as it was bad in many places.


So please give us your version.  It would be on topic. If you think I dont know for sure how the process works then please correct me. if you have read it all then you should know my version. I dont think it will change the fact that the cap oscillating with the primary after the switch is open helps us get a much better spark in all aspects by way of resonance.  Resonance doesnt give us anything more MH is claiming, and he further tried to deny that resonance even exists in the circuit in his theory, and even ignored the inductance effects in the whole of his explanation other than there is transformer action and thats it, let alone also ignoring the fact that when the switch is open that the primary due to its own field collapes currents will charge the cap to possibly over 100v( some ign systems from around the world have differing results on that) to initiate the LC ring. Thats why I had said the resonance is initiated by the primary otherwise how would the cap get it high potential to begin with.

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2017, 04:57:15 PM »
My 2 cents worth,,


There are 2 spark gaps,, One you want to spark and the other you don't want to spark ( in this case it is arcing across the points).


In my experience the condenser has 2 objectives, one was to reduce the arc across the points and the other was to provide for a faster cutt-off time for the current in the primary.


It takes time for the points to open,, there is a ramp on the lobe,, so the points are making contact and then in a relative fashion they open slowly,, the rate of sepperation depends on the lobe shape, points arm length and the RPM.


If the condenser is to small then it is charged before the points gap is large enough to stop arcing,, if it is to big then it takes to long for the cap to charge and stop current flow in the primary and then it will hold onto to much charge and arc across the points as they are closing.  Both of these can lead to a weaker spark and short points life.


Voltage is created by rate of change of flux, so the more abrupt the stoppage of current flow in the primary the bigger the spark out of the secondary.

So you disagree that resonance between the cap and primary exist and help us get a stronger, longer lasting spark due to the LC oscillation producing multiple sparks rather than 1 spark. Just wondering because you didnt mention anything of the cap and primary as an LC when the switch opens that will ring after the primary collapse currents charge the cap to over 100v.   Do you have a coil and cap and a scope?

Mags

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2017, 05:06:08 PM »
Mags said
Have you read the speaker thread? 

No, do not have time today.

One more time....'

First we have to start with an already efficient system. Then we apply resonance.  If you did read the other thread, it provides infor on how to increase efficiency beyond 100%, and then we can add resonance to acquire more efficiency.

Have you seen a bedini that outputs more than in?

No, where is that? thanks
Norman

Mags

Well read that info and tell me what you think,

I asked if you have seen a Bedini motor because you seemed to indicate how we can get more out of this other than a spark like a bedini motor as if you have seen a bedini motor put out more as in ou?  If you havnt seen it for real do so then you are like the rest of us and cant really refer to the Bedini motor as an ou device example.

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2017, 05:06:08 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2017, 05:14:06 PM »
Apparently someone else is approving MHs post in my thread. I suspect its Brad. The issue I have with that is MH and I have issues between us and I had told him im pm that I will make the decision on which posts are to be approved.  But oh well, do as you wish.

If you are going to be 'that involved' here then post your version brad, instead of just blurting what you havnt seen here and 'patrolling' my thread.

mags

Offline Erfinder

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2017, 05:37:48 PM »
Well read that info and tell me what you think,

I asked if you have seen a Bedini motor because you seemed to indicate how we can get more out of this other than a spark like a bedini motor as if you have seen a bedini motor put out more as in ou?  If you havnt seen it for real do so then you are like the rest of us and cant really refer to the Bedini motor as an ou device example.

Mags


I consider the Bedini SG to be a form of "rotary transformer", a concept which has yet to be demonstrated operating at its optimum, let alone fullest potential.  It should be understood that the terms "rotary transformer" as I use them, are not as of yet, nor in any foreseeable future the private property of anyone nor any group researching the same that I am presently aware of.  It is my firm understanding that there are a multiplicity of methods and apparatus which can be classified as "rotary transformer".  I say this so that it's clear that my use both in word and in deed, of the terms differs from how it may be used by others. 


Regarding the Bedini SG, the concept of recovery is fundamentally flawed in my opinion.....  The answer to the question of what exactly is being recovered, and the mechanism through which this is made possible is extremely vague.  From this position it becomes difficult to impossible to properly orient oneself so as to be in the best position to profit from and through reflection.  Recovery as I have come to understand it is not as simple as we have been led to believe.  It is multifaceted, and requires that one be able to observe at a minimum three energy transfer and storage processes and their collective and individual influence on one another at any given instance while the system is in operation.   


A step in the right direction would be to first comprehend impedance, followed by engineering the system in such a way that "self impedance" (I know....its not in the books....) becomes impossible....  one mans' experience.....




Regards


Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2017, 05:48:50 PM »

I consider the Bedini SG to be a form of "rotary transformer", a concept which has yet to be demonstrated operating at its optimum, let alone fullest potential.  It should be understood that the terms "rotary transformer" as I use them, are not as of yet, nor in any foreseeable future the private property of anyone nor any group researching the same that I am presently aware of.  It is my firm understanding that there are a multiplicity of methods and apparatus which can be classified as "rotary transformer".  I say this so that it's clear that my use both in word and in deed, of the terms differs from how it may be used by others. 


Regarding the Bedini SG, the concept of recovery is fundamentally flawed in my opinion.....  The answer to the question of what exactly is being recovered, and the mechanism through which this is made possible is extremely vague.  From this position it becomes difficult to impossible to properly orient oneself so as to be in the best position to profit from and through reflection.  Recovery as I have come to understand it is not as simple as we have been led to believe.  It is multifaceted, and requires that one be able to observe at a minimum three energy transfer and storage processes and their collective and individual influence on one another at any given instance while the system is in operation.   


A step in the right direction would be to first comprehend impedance, followed by engineering the system in such a way that "self impedance" (I know....its not in the books....) becomes impossible....  one mans' experience.....




Regards

Hey Er

Wasnt really claiming the Bedini as a fake or anything.  But just the idea that some use it as an example with out really knowing for sure is questionable. So I questioned.  Maybe he has and I would like to see info on that particular Bedini example. Would be nice.

Mags

Offline Erfinder

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2017, 05:53:24 PM »
Hey Er

Wasnt really claiming the Bedini as a fake or anything.  But just the idea that some use it as an example with out really knowing for sure is questionable. So I questioned.  Maybe he has and I would like to see info on that particular Bedini example. Would be nice.

Mags


I completely understand where you are coming from....I wasn't questioning anyones position, just wanted to share an insight..




Regards


Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2017, 06:08:08 PM »
Still sniffing around.   Here is a clip that backs you up 100%.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU87fpNQ3d8

HOWEVER, the "Automotive Engineering" channel might be much more automotive than electronics and it's possible that the persons that made the clip were just "following the crowd."

Going back to the "current has to keep flowing" angle relative to this clip:  Okay, the capacitor charges up to say 300 volts which lets the current flow, and then you are at the limit of the EMF generation and the current flow stops.  Why does it stop?  It actually stops because the secondary has just "bridged the gap" and ignited the plasma.  So then the magnetic core of the ignition coil dumps all its energy into the plasma.

So, suppose we guesstimate the energy status when the trigger point comes and the plasma ignites and there is 300 volts in the capacitor.  My guess is this:  90% of the energy is in the ignition coil core, and 10% of the energy is in the capacitor.

So when the core dumps all of its magnetic energy, the clip claims then you have a resonant plasma-firing ring-down.  I don't see it, what I see is just the ring down with no plasma generation.  So I think the clip is wrong and just "following the crowd."  I looked at several other clips that just say the capacitor protects the points and there is no mention of the the big plasma ring down.  But I am not convinced that those clips are the real thing either.

Thanks for that vid..  Can you see that what was in the vid is very possible?  I still feel you denying it. But that is exactly how i see it. Like you said is an accurate description in comparison to mine..  But lets see what brad has to add to that, since what I explained doesnt seem to cover it all according to him.

Ill get to the other posts later.  Took a long lunch here at the shop while I wait for some paint to dry..  Little center console shift indicator module for a Maserati that all the paint around the lettering and lines flaked off.  I taped it up with packing tape so I could see the remnants of the lettering and exacto cut them, pealed of the rest of the tape and paint then remove the remaining tape over the letters.  $380 for a new one. I charged $100.  Do a lot of that cost saving stuff for people.

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2017, 06:08:08 PM »

 

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