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Author Topic: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....  (Read 24329 times)

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #240 on: November 11, 2017, 07:04:42 AM »
Well I actually see things very clearly.  Without defining efficiency it's a meaningless term.  What needs to be focused on is the entire circuit and how it operates and how power and energy flows through the circuit.  There is no "twice the energy" anywhere in this circuit.  That's a classic line that you see all the time, "my circuit recycles energy that is otherwise wasted" or "my circuit uses the same energy twice."  Those are meaningless statements.

As I previously indicated, this simple circuit could be completely and unambiguously understood by building it and probing it with an oscilloscope and then constructing a full timing diagram that includes all scoped current and voltage waveforms and waveforms for things like power and energy that are derived by the experimenter using his or her intellect.

It may have been something that was patentable in the late 19th century.  However, by today's standards and for the past 70 years, this circuit is no more than a grade seven science project.  It's very easy to imagine a 12-year-old in 1952 that was a serious electronics hobbyist and was lucky enough to have access to an oscilloscope demonstrating this circuit at an elementary school school science fair and explaining it perfectly to the visiting parents.

"Well I actually see things very clearly.  Without defining efficiency it's a meaningless term.  What needs to be focused on is the entire circuit and how it operates and how power and energy flows through the circuit.  There is no "twice the energy" anywhere in this circuit.  That's a classic line that you see all the time, "my circuit recycles energy that is otherwise wasted" or "my circuit uses the same energy twice."  Those are meaningless statements"


Well if it were like debunkifieds latest series of vids ::) , all the circuitry and what ever in a box and just 4 wires coming out, input and output, and we couldnt see in the box, but we could measure the input and output, then could we not measure the efficiency of the In/Out?  Lets go another step forward, to be more transparent. So we encapsulate the circuit in a block of cured surfboard resin and 4 wires, power in and power out. Now we know we cannot get to the circuit other than by way of these 4 wires, but we can clearly see inside and see that there is no batteries, etc.  Could we not then measure the efficiency of the in and out and produce qualified results from just those 4 wires?

The difference between the conventional spark circuit, using a correct spark coil, a correct cap and the relay was the closest I could get to points, and the Tesla Igniter version, in efficiency comparison, using the same switching times, is so far off it isnt even funny..  With the conventional circuit, the spark primary is placed across the battery for X amount of time when the switch closes, and in the Igniter circuit the large inductor in series with the primary is also put across the battery for the same X amount of time when the switch closes.  So if during X amount of time, the conventional primary, what, 5.5mh, 1ohm plus the 1ohm ballast for 2ohms, and then the Igniter with the large coil, .9H 46ohm IN SERIES with the 5.5mh 1ohm primary, which one will pull more current from the battery over X amount of time? 12V battery. Which circuit will kill the battery first, no matter what X is?  Well just in your head, for max current over X amount of time, 6A for the conventional and .25A for the igniter..  Not a nice way to think about it?  Well over X amount of time, the .9h coil will take a lot longer to even reach max current than the 5.5mh primary, so the conventional is killing that battery quite a bit faster than the Igniter circuit, and basically no matter what X is.  If there wasnt even a time lag for each example to reach max current, the conventional would be pulling 72w during X time and the Igniter would only pull 3w over X time.  This is just simple figuring.

So really now would be the time to measure the output to see how the 2 would compare. After my scope freaked in my one vid scoping the primary, I went with 2 10kohm resistors in series across the primary and put the scope across just 1 resistor. The voltages were still higher readings for the igniter circuit than the scope directly across the primary in the conventional circuit. All just to say, Im not putting my scope leads anywhere near the sec output terminal. :o ;D

But, I bet that igniter circuit would run a motor. And if it can, then we have greatly reduced the input using the igniter over the conventional circuit. I mean if you want to go into the measurements of the inputs in a more detailed and statistical manner, I dont think you will get much of an evening out of the power in between the 2 compared to what Ive just described and threw together with a calculator. Just cant see it. Going by the resistances alone, it plays a big factor in power within the X time period, let alone the longer delay of the Igniter circuit to even reach max current over X time!!


"my circuit recycles energy that is otherwise wasted?" Well yeah if the circuit did not have the cap, there would be 1 spark.  And a weak spark at that. Wont jump 1cm like with the cap, in which I can get with the igniter just the same. We need that spark period to last more than 1 pip. We need to ensure the burn. And the cap in the conventional circuit gives us that. And the igniter can pull it off also at a small fraction of the input.


"my circuit uses the same energy twice?"  Well we can see the primary oscillation first few peaks are cut shorter than they would normally be when the sec sparks, again and again and again till the spark does not happen any longer, and then the ring down continues smoothly without cutoff peaks. So if there were no cap, this repeated spark would not occur, and nowhere near as strong, as shown in the vids. So we get a first good spark during the rise of the oscillation and the next spark during the neg throw of the oscillation, and then another with the next positive rise, until the spark just cant happen again until the circuit charges up the cap again via switchings. Otherwise we get 1 pip, and it may not be enough to burn all the fuel, let alone ignite the mix regularly or maybe not even at all depending on circumstances.


I know. You dont see the oscillations as possible causes for more than 1 spark. Well My pics and vids show that there are individual arcs. Not some long lasting DC discharge that would snake around instead of showing off the multiple bright arc contact points on the spark plugs electrodes for the individual arcs themselves that we can see.



"As I previously indicated, this simple circuit could be completely and unambiguously understood by building it and probing it with an oscilloscope and then constructing a full timing diagram that includes all scoped current and voltage waveforms and waveforms for things like power and energy that are derived by the experimenter using his or her intellect."

Well get to it then. Show us what you want to show us.


"It may have been something that was patentable in the late 19th century.  However, by today's standards and for the past 70 years, this circuit is no more than a grade seven science project.  It's very easy to imagine a 12-year-old in 1952 that was a serious electronics hobbyist and was lucky enough to have access to an oscilloscope demonstrating this circuit at an elementary school school science fair and explaining it perfectly to the visiting parents."

I loved science classes. We never got into this particular stuff ever. Not even in in vo-tech classes for electronics the last 3 years of high school, or even during my time at Electronic Institute of Pittsburgh.  Not even 1 guy I have talked to about this in all of the mech shops I deal with knows much about any of what is actually happening here.
Well its very easy for me to imagine Tesla putting that 12yr old in his place on this subject.  Explaining it perfectly to the visiting parents? ??? How many pages since page 2 have you gotten it wrong?  That 12 yr old your talking about is kicking your ass. lol.  Come on dude. Takes a lot of balls to come up with a statement like that after reading the thread up until that last post. Dont ya think? ???

Anyway.....

Mags
« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 10:17:07 AM by Magluvin »

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Offline hoptoad

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #241 on: November 11, 2017, 11:54:46 AM »
snip....
Well get to it then. Show us what you want to show us.
snip....
Milehigh writes a great many truths, is occasionally wrong, human like the rest of us. But to get him to roll up his sleeves and do some bench work, then show it, may require a miracle that is beyond anyone's expectations. :P
Quote
snip...
I loved science classes. We never got into this particular stuff ever. Not even in in vo-tech classes for electronics the last 3 years of high school, or even during my time at Electronic Institute of Pittsburgh.  Not even 1 guy I have talked to about this in all of the mech shops I deal with knows much about any of what is actually happening here.
snip...
Mags
Perhaps you were unlucky. As a telecommunications technician in the early 1970s, I was lucky enough to experience training in technology going back as far as the 1930/40s that was still in operation, side by side with 1950/60s and 1970s equipment. As such, a sound knowledge of relay (inductor) behaviour coupled with RC circuits and various switching techniques, was essential, given that almost all pre-1960s telecommunications equipment was relay (inductor) driven.

On two points, I agree with Milehigh. Efficiency must be defined. Energy is accountable.

Efficiency can be defined as result versus effort. But that doesn't necessarily mean, the greatest result from the least energy, unless you specifically define efficiency with those parameters in mind.

For example : Lets say I'm a soldier who wishes to kill an enemy at 1000 meters. I can take aim with a high powered rifle and hope I get a direct hit. Or I can fire a short range artillery shell at the same target. I might be lucky in the first instance if I hit the target and killed my enemy, but I'd be incredibly unlucky if I did the same with artillery and didn't kill the enemy with a direct hit.

Obviously artillery is more expensive and high energy expenditure. But the result is likely to be more efficient, if only the result (killed enemy at 1000 meters) is the measure to be taken.

Bad example I know, but something to think about. Desired results sometimes demand high expenditure, but ways of reducing expenditure should always be explored.
Cheers

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #242 on: November 12, 2017, 01:10:43 AM »
<<< Well get to it then. Show us what you want to show us. >>>
<<< But to get him to roll up his sleeves and do some bench work, then show it, may require a miracle that is beyond anyone's expectations.  >>>

You're both just trolling me.

Magsy, you get into it, you have the setup.  Why is the spark bigger with the capacitor?  How does the ignition coil circuit actually work?  Where is the input energy going?  What is the complete timing diagram for the ignition coil circuit?  After all this time and with your own setup you haven't answered those questions yourself.

<<<  How many pages since page 2 have you gotten it wrong?  That 12 yr old your talking about is kicking your ass. lol.  Come on dude. Takes a lot of balls to come up with a statement like that after reading the thread up until that last post. Dont ya think?  >>>

Your claim from the beginning was that resonance between the primary and the capacitor was how the ignition coil circuit worked and you got it wrong.  Welcome to the club.  And from what I am hearing from you, you still have it wrong.

You have almost just been a bystander for the first main part of the thread where the ignition coil circuit was discussed.  Yes, it is a bit more involved than we thought and I did the digging and iterated through the process and got up the learning curve and now I am quite certain that I have it right and I understand the nuances.  Meanwhile, you did a few clips showing small sparks and big sparks and then a clip where you scoped the primary and saw the oscillations and then you folded up and called it a day.  In other words, show and don't tell and don't explain which is just classic behaviour for the forum.  You have not come up with any tests on your own to investigate what is going on in your setup.  You did a close-up and saw multiple spark streams and then said, "See, this is proof that the oscillations in the resonant ring-down have a benefit" or something to that effect.  You have no data to back up that claim and it is highly dubious.  My gut feel is telling me that the air will spontaneously break down into multiple plasma streamers when driven by a discharging coil, irregardless of any "oscillations."

You have a setup and I am not seeing you actually apply your knowledge and bench skills to really get down and answer the questions for your own satisfaction and that of the readers:  Why is the spark bigger with the capacitor?  Where is the input energy going?  How does the ignition coil circuit actually work?  What is the complete timing diagram for the ignition coil circuit?

I am not seeing you develop any of your own tests using your own brainpower to analyze this circuit.  I even mentioned several possible tests to you in PM and there was the sound of one hand clapping in response.

And absolutely yes, an astute 12-year-old that is really interested in electronics could answer all of the aforementioned questions and explain all of the nuances.

Offline tinman

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #243 on: November 12, 2017, 08:08:48 AM »
<<< Well get to it then. Show us what you want to show us. >>>
<<< But to get him to roll up his sleeves and do some bench work, then show it, may require a miracle that is beyond anyone's expectations.  >>>

You're both just trolling me.

Magsy, you get into it, you have the setup.    How does the ignition coil circuit actually work?  Where is the input energy going?  What is the complete timing diagram for the ignition coil circuit?  After all this time and with your own setup you haven't answered those questions yourself.

<<<  How many pages since page 2 have you gotten it wrong?  That 12 yr old your talking about is kicking your ass. lol.  Come on dude. Takes a lot of balls to come up with a statement like that after reading the thread up until that last post. Dont ya think?  >>>

Your claim from the beginning was that resonance between the primary and the capacitor was how the ignition coil circuit worked and you got it wrong.  Welcome to the club.  And from what I am hearing from you, you still have it wrong.

You have almost just been a bystander for the first main part of the thread where the ignition coil circuit was discussed.  Yes, it is a bit more involved than we thought and I did the digging and iterated through the process and got up the learning curve and now I am quite certain that I have it right and I understand the nuances.  Meanwhile, you did a few clips showing small sparks and big sparks and then a clip where you scoped the primary and saw the oscillations and then you folded up and called it a day.  In other words, show and don't tell and don't explain which is just classic behaviour for the forum.  You have not come up with any tests on your own to investigate what is going on in your setup.  You did a close-up and saw multiple spark streams and then said, "See, this is proof that the oscillations in the resonant ring-down have a benefit" or something to that effect.  You have no data to back up that claim and it is highly dubious.  My gut feel is telling me that the air will spontaneously break down into multiple plasma streamers when driven by a discharging coil, irregardless of any "oscillations."

You have a setup and I am not seeing you actually apply your knowledge and bench skills to really get down and answer the questions for your own satisfaction and that of the readers:  Why is the spark bigger with the capacitor?  Where is the input energy going?  How does the ignition coil circuit actually work?  What is the complete timing diagram for the ignition coil circuit?

I am not seeing you develop any of your own tests using your own brainpower to analyze this circuit.  I even mentioned several possible tests to you in PM and there was the sound of one hand clapping in response.

And absolutely yes, an astute 12-year-old that is really interested in electronics could answer all of the aforementioned questions and explain all of the nuances.

Quote
Why is the spark bigger with the capacitor?

It captures the !otherwise wasted! energy from the primary's inductive kickback,and that energy is discharged through the !now low! resistance of the arc.


Brad

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #244 on: November 12, 2017, 02:32:59 PM »
Why is the spark bigger with the capacitor?

It captures the !otherwise wasted! energy from the primary's inductive kickback,and that energy is discharged through the !now low! resistance of the arc.

Brad

I would say that your response is in the the right direction but it's not how I would put it.  Let's Magluvin take the lead and give us his take on it and we will see if he is going to answer the questions that I posted.

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #244 on: November 12, 2017, 02:32:59 PM »
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