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Author Topic: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....  (Read 14380 times)

Offline Magluvin

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I had brought up this subject in a multi recipient pm with MH.  I was trying to get him to see just one example of how resonance can give us a gain in output......


(mh)  "And I think of all the time you idiots have called me an "idiot" or told me that I don't know my stuff and I am faking it or I am a "disinformation agent."  And most of you bloody idiots can't understand a motor passing an inductive kick-back spike to a bloody LC resonator.  And yet you have all spent literally years playing with inductive kick-back spikes and LC resonators.  What the fuck?"

(mags)  "Can you explain why a standard igniton coil with a cap across the points produces a hotter longer lasting spark than without the condenser? Very very simple circuit and some of the diagrams online are incorrect.  Battery, points and primary in series with the condenser across the switch. Polarity of the battery is inconsequential.."

These few pms were between he and I only at this point. I was trying to be friendly, but...  I copy pasted from the pm to make sure what was said is accurate to the T.

Mh had 4-5 others in this pm fest and they all mostly  didnt reply much if any. But he came out and said I was asking him to help me understand it. And that the condnser was some kind of modification to the standard points ign. He twisted my words again with the group. In my question post I stated it was a standard ignition with battery, coil point and condensr and he makes it look like I am adding a cap to make the original circuit different.  Heck I posted what i know about it and why it works at OUR the day or so before I asked MH thins question. Can prove it all.  But he twisted the whole thing around and told everyone that he wasnt going to explain how it works and he is not going to spoon feed me, etc etc. 

He pulled up a depiction to ask if this is what I was talking about and I said yes, those are the 2 circuits.

Then he said this to me first, and then to the group again.





"Here, Magluvin asked me about this standard ignition circuit and why you get a more robust spark when you put a cap across the interrupter switch:

https://cdn.instructables.com/F4Z/QP4N/GC4G94M5/F4ZQP4NGC4G94M5.MEDIUM.gif

I suggested to him that he post it in the thread as a sort of "primer" to see if you guys could figure out exactly why you get a bigger spark when you add the cap.  Right now, I don't think that any of you can explain why.  And that represents a paradox for all of you.  If I am right and none of you can explain the how and why for the modified ignition circuit, then what's the point in discussing the Tesla ozone patent if you don't even understand how the modified ignition circuit works?  What's the point of building and testing a Kapanadze "grenade" coil circuit if you can't even understand the ignition circuit or the ozone patent?"


So here are my response vids.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4aHl8JL2PI&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rlSoAShf2o&feature=youtu.be

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Magluvin

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In the very short second vid, when with the capacitor connected, you can see it is not just one thin spark like without the cap connected. There are multiple sparks happening during the ring down of the resonant LC. 

There is a gain by way of resonance here.

Mags


Offline citfta

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It seems we have a bunch of experts with no real expertise.  The ignition coil circuit is very simple as Mags has said. Lets take it a step at a time.

First the points are closed.  This allows current to flow through the primary of the coil.  When the points open the inductance of the primary now forces the current to flow into the cap.  Since inductance wants to keep the current flowing the cap will charge to a higher voltage than the supply.  Once the inductance has expended all it's energy minus the resistance loses then the cap starts to discharge back through the primary into the source.  Again since the inductance wants to keep the current flowing the cap will discharge until the voltage of the cap is lower than the supply voltage.  And then the supply will reverse the flow again back unto the cap and back and forth it goes until the resistance uses up the energy being supplied by the resonance of the LC circuit formed by the cap and the primary.

If you doubt this, then just put a scope on the primary and watch what happens with and without the cap.  Any old school mechanic will very quickly tell you the system does not work if the cap is removed or goes bad.

Respectfully,
Carroll

Offline Magluvin

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It seems we have a bunch of experts with no real expertise.  The ignition coil circuit is very simple as Mags has said. Lets take it a step at a time.

First the points are closed.  This allows current to flow through the primary of the coil.  When the points open the inductance of the primary now forces the current to flow into the cap.  Since inductance wants to keep the current flowing the cap will charge to a higher voltage than the supply.  Once the inductance has expended all it's energy minus the resistance loses then the cap starts to discharge back through the primary into the source.  Again since the inductance wants to keep the current flowing the cap will discharge until the voltage of the cap is lower than the supply voltage.  And then the supply will reverse the flow again back unto the cap and back and forth it goes until the resistance uses up the energy being supplied by the resonance of the LC circuit formed by the cap and the primary.

If you doubt this, then just put a scope on the primary and watch what happens with and without the cap.  Any old school mechanic will very quickly tell you the system does not work if the cap is removed or goes bad.

Respectfully,
Carroll

Exactly. But, Mh is at it again with resonance of an lc is of no use to us.  Said in pm 2 times that he got an A in pulse circuits.  Haha lol  That is just too much.

But there are actually a lot of mechanics that do not know this today, strangely enough.

Mags


Offline Magluvin

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It seems we have a bunch of experts with no real expertise.  The ignition coil circuit is very simple as Mags has said. Lets take it a step at a time.

First the points are closed.  This allows current to flow through the primary of the coil.  When the points open the inductance of the primary now forces the current to flow into the cap.  Since inductance wants to keep the current flowing the cap will charge to a higher voltage than the supply.  Once the inductance has expended all it's energy minus the resistance loses then the cap starts to discharge back through the primary into the source.  Again since the inductance wants to keep the current flowing the cap will discharge until the voltage of the cap is lower than the supply voltage.  And then the supply will reverse the flow again back unto the cap and back and forth it goes until the resistance uses up the energy being supplied by the resonance of the LC circuit formed by the cap and the primary.

If you doubt this, then just put a scope on the primary and watch what happens with and without the cap.  Any old school mechanic will very quickly tell you the system does not work if the cap is removed or goes bad.

Respectfully,
Carroll

Ooops, forgot.  Im not putting a scope on it. I want his explanation of how Im wrong and to give his imaginary way that it works first.  He wont because he cant.  :P Cant come up with a better reasoning that is.  He does it once again and lays the challenge all on me.  I showed the clear indisputable results that he seemingly cant agree that THE CAP AND COIL RESONATE BECAUSE THATS WHAT LCs DO .  Must have got an F in filter class. ;)

Ive shown him what is and what isnt with the difference.  He would even dispute a scope shot with more imaginary bags of dimwit. Yup.

Mags

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Offline citfta

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But there are actually a lot of mechanics that do not know this today, strangely enough.

Mags

I worked as a mechanic for many years before switching to electronics.  A lot and I mean a lot of mechanics are just parts swappers.  They just keep putting on new parts until the problem is fixed.  There are only a few that actually know how  to trouble shoot the problem and replace the correct part the first time.  Unfortunately that is now becoming a widespread problem in almost any area of technical repairs.  There are almost no apprentice programs anymore and most instructors nowdays have never gotten any experience in what they teach. If it is not in a book they have no clue.

Carroll

Offline ramset

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SOooo
you are summoning the ....Milehigh ...back to the front page ??

I'm good with that !! [but its not my call

I still think he should have his own "teaching/discussion" section.

just one mans opinion.

Chet

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Offline webby1

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I worked as a mechanic for many years before switching to electronics. 
Carroll


Old timers could look at the points and decide which way to change the condenser,, increase or decrease or if it was just right,,,,,  look at the plugs and see if they are too hot or cold,, or just right,, and use a vacuum gauge,,  those were the days,, :)


Mechanics are hard to find,, "technician",, well that is a fancy name for a part swapper :)

Offline Magluvin

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It seems we have a bunch of experts with no real expertise.  The ignition coil circuit is very simple as Mags has said. Lets take it a step at a time.

First the points are closed.  This allows current to flow through the primary of the coil.  When the points open the inductance of the primary now forces the current to flow into the cap.  Since inductance wants to keep the current flowing the cap will charge to a higher voltage than the supply.  Once the inductance has expended all it's energy minus the resistance loses then the cap starts to discharge back through the primary into the source.  Again since the inductance wants to keep the current flowing the cap will discharge until the voltage of the cap is lower than the supply voltage.  And then the supply will reverse the flow again back unto the cap and back and forth it goes until the resistance uses up the energy being supplied by the resonance of the LC circuit formed by the cap and the primary.

If you doubt this, then just put a scope on the primary and watch what happens with and without the cap.  Any old school mechanic will very quickly tell you the system does not work if the cap is removed or goes bad.

Respectfully,
Carroll

Hey Carrol

Mh says he has asked you to post here for him. Im going to ask that you dont do that.. If he wants to post here some relevant info, being I am the moderator, I will decide what to allow. But he would need approval from Stefan for me to even see his posts first. Im not going to have this thread to be filled with page after page of his craziness, as you can see in your pms to us 5 or 6 people day in and day out. It will just be a mess.

Besides he is on moderation here for that reason. So I dont believe he should get the privilege to do so using someone elses bus pass, so to speak.

Im done with the pm thing. I got msgs from several others in that group on this and they dont want to see their pms filled every day. It just makes their lists hard to go through just like it does in threads, let alone having to just delete them every day as some have claimed. Who wants all that in their daily lives if not needed. Mh isnt worth it.

Anyway, he is the only one that is disputing my reasoning behind the the caps purpose. I even made a DPDT relay setup with a 1000uf cap across the coil of the relay and set it up to buzz like an old bell, and the cap allows it to hold for a short period, then reset for a quick period, the same as a typical points system. The sparks in the contacts were the same either way with the cap in or out.  I will post my scope shots if MH posts his so called real reason here, that there is more output when the cap is added. But I will not entertain him any further till he does so.

If he wants to post just his explanation of how and why here, whether I think he is right or wrong, I will post it. If he is right then we should accept his answer. And if he is wrong, then i will give my rebuttal. But that will be as far as it goes. Its up to him to do so or not. Im not going to follow his rules. Nobody else seems to want to either.

He only wanted to have it posted here to have an avenue to post in the thread, bypassing his moderation issue. He would definitely be hounding you to post more and more, just as much as he does in pm. It wont stop. So Im pulling the plug on this here and now. If he does not take you guys off of his CC list, I suggest you contact Stefan on the matter

Mags
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 04:19:55 PM by Magluvin »

Offline norman6538

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It seems we have a bunch of experts with no real expertise.  The ignition coil circuit is very simple as Mags has said. Lets take it a step at a time.

First the points are closed.  This allows current to flow through the primary of the coil.  When the points open the inductance of the primary now forces the current to flow into the cap.  Since inductance wants to keep the current flowing the cap will charge to a higher voltage than the supply.  Once the inductance has expended all it's energy minus the resistance loses then the cap starts to discharge back through the primary into the source.  Again since the inductance wants to keep the current flowing the cap will discharge until the voltage of the cap is lower than the supply voltage.  And then the supply will reverse the flow again back unto the cap and back and forth it goes until the resistance uses up the energy being supplied by the resonance of the LC circuit formed by the cap and the primary.

If you doubt this, then just put a scope on the primary and watch what happens with and without the cap.  Any old school mechanic will very quickly tell you the system does not work if the cap is removed or goes bad.

Respectfully,
Carroll


Many of you know what the coil/cap/points does  in great detail but if you back up to the forest it
will show you another function too.  I learned this when my father's 56 Merc would barely climb up a hill
and get us home but we did get home slowly up hills where the engine needed more power. The trick here
is that RECYCLINNG the current back and forth extends the time of the spark and thus makes a better
burn of the fuel and thus more power and it does it with no additional price to pay. In the 56 Merc case
the condenser was bad and there was spark but not the extended spark to make the extra power needed
to get up the hills easily....You can observe this by a bench setup of the points and coil and cap and then
when the cap is bypassed the spark is there but very thin but when the cap is working the spark is wider and
more visible because it ionizes air beside the original spark and thus looks wider too.
Tesla had quite an effective circuit for this purpose and we use it everyday.

Were it not for the 56 Merc and the bad cap I would not understand this today.

Norman

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

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Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2017, 02:58:25 PM »

Many of you know what the coil/cap/points does  in great detail but if you back up to the forest it
will show you another function too.  I learned this when my father's 56 Merc would barely climb up a hill
and get us home but we did get home slowly up hills where the engine needed more power. The trick here
is that RECYCLINNG the current back and forth extends the time of the spark and thus makes a better
burn of the fuel and thus more power and it does it with no additional price to pay. In the 56 Merc case
the condenser was bad and there was spark but not the extended spark to make the extra power needed
to get up the hills easily....You can observe this by a bench setup of the points and coil and cap and then
when the cap is bypassed the spark is there but very thin but when the cap is working the spark is wider and
more visible because it ionizes air beside the original spark and thus looks wider too.
Tesla had quite an effective circuit for this purpose and we use it everyday.

Were it not for the 56 Merc and the bad cap I would not understand this today.

Norman

I said this also in PM arguments.  If the first spark ionizes the air with the first strike, the next spark of the resonant oscillation will have an easier path to jump, and allowing a more robust spark series to continue as the oscillations die down .

Thanks for all your support here guys. MH has a thing against any resonance talk. Well we know better and he is just will not let our true knowledge of the gains Im presenting with this and speakers, so far  ;) , to be brought out. Well here is our chance to explore these things without his disruptions.  Lets do this. I am sure we are on the correct path, if we choose to walk it together. ;D

First work on efficiency, then add resonance, and we should be able to take it over the top and achieve over 100%eff very easily, very soon. And not just in one way only. ;)

Mags

Offline citfta

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2017, 03:26:09 PM »
Hi Mags,

I am out of town and have very limited time to get online. I have only skimmed over the long list of PMs I found when I logged in.  I gather MH wants me to post his views on all this.  But I am not aware of any place he has posted those views and he hasn't shared them with me via PM either.  Anyway I don't have time or the inclination to get involved in all that right now.  So I will NOT be posting anything further about the simple coil, cap and points circuit.

Carroll

A funny side note.  One of my brother in laws who was very much NOT a mechanic was fussing one day about the new points he got.  He said to me "Look at these new points! Their not pointed at all.  They are just as flat as can be."  He was getting ready to try and sharpen them when I explained they were fine.  LOL


Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2017, 03:29:09 PM »
Hi Mags,

I am out of town and have very limited time to get online. I have only skimmed over the long list of PMs I found when I logged in.  I gather MH wants me to post his views on all this.  But I am not aware of any place he has posted those views and he hasn't shared them with me via PM either.  Anyway I don't have time or the inclination to get involved in all that right now.  So I will NOT be posting anything further about the simple coil, cap and points circuit.

Carroll

A funny side note.  One of my brother in laws who was very much NOT a mechanic was fussing one day about the new points he got.  He said to me "Look at these new points! Their not pointed at all.  They are just as flat as can be."  He was getting ready to try and sharpen them when I explained they were fine.  LOL

ok  thanks  ;)

And that points story was very funny. :D :D

Mags

Offline norman6538

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2017, 04:42:22 PM »
mags said
I said this also in PM arguments.  If the first spark ionizes the air with the first strike, the next spark of the resonant oscillation will have an easier path to jump, and allowing a more robust spark series to continue as the oscillations die down .

Thanks for all your support here guys. MH has a thing against any resonance talk. Well we know better and he is just will not let our true knowledge of the gains Im presenting with this and speakers, so far  (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/wink.gif) , to be brought out. Well here is our chance to explore these things without his disruptions.  Lets do this. I am sure we are on the correct path, if we choose to walk it together. (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/grin.gif)

First work on efficiency, then add resonance, and we should be able to take it over the top and achieve over 100%eff very easily, very soon. And not just in one way only. (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

Mags

The problem I have with what you said it this....
In the case of the ign coil you do get a far better spark for no additional price. and if that is what you want
then great but when you want something else like power a light bulb - it does not get OU. Its great if you
stay in that box but outside that box it fails. Another example of this is the Bedini school girl motor.
The motor runs with good efficiency and it also extends ( like the cap extends the spark ) the runtime
of the motor by putting the otherwise wasted current back into the battery but as in the spark and RLC circuits - it
winds down. So the Bedini motor will run and power something and also charge something else at the
same time but its not enough to loop back to itself and continue running.
So with the Bedini motor you can run it to do work and also light a light bulb to see what you are doing.

It took me years to figure this all out.

Norman


Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2017, 05:29:20 PM »
mags said
I said this also in PM arguments.  If the first spark ionizes the air with the first strike, the next spark of the resonant oscillation will have an easier path to jump, and allowing a more robust spark series to continue as the oscillations die down .

Thanks for all your support here guys. MH has a thing against any resonance talk. Well we know better and he is just will not let our true knowledge of the gains Im presenting with this and speakers, so far  (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/wink.gif) , to be brought out. Well here is our chance to explore these things without his disruptions.  Lets do this. I am sure we are on the correct path, if we choose to walk it together. (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/grin.gif)

First work on efficiency, then add resonance, and we should be able to take it over the top and achieve over 100%eff very easily, very soon. And not just in one way only. (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

Mags

The problem I have with what you said it this....
In the case of the ign coil you do get a far better spark for no additional price. and if that is what you want
then great but when you want something else like power a light bulb - it does not get OU. Its great if you
stay in that box but outside that box it fails. Another example of this is the Bedini school girl motor.
The motor runs with good efficiency and it also extends ( like the cap extends the spark ) the runtime
of the motor by putting the otherwise wasted current back into the battery but as in the spark and RLC circuits - it
winds down. So the Bedini motor will run and power something and also charge something else at the
same time but its not enough to loop back to itself and continue running.
So with the Bedini motor you can run it to do work and also light a light bulb to see what you are doing.

It took me years to figure this all out.

Norman

Here is something I explained in my other thread on speakers...

We need to start with a very efficient system or device, then when we add resonance to the device, we can get more efficiency.  If the device is say upper 90% eff, then the gain by adding resonance can take us over the top.

And Something else I explained in that thread is when we increase the number of drivers in the device, we increase output without increasing input.

A speaker that is 112db@1w sensitivity is 100% eff in Pin/Pae out.  This info is not widely known in the least. And there are speakers out there with this 112db@1w sensitivity rating. My friend is sending me some links of sites with speakers that are up to 117db@1w sensitivity.

Now if I have a 96db@1w sensitivity rated speaker, we are at 2.5%eff.  Seems unreal actually, being the speaker motor assy is a coreless motor of which are super eff.

So now we increase the number of drivers by doubling each time. We gain 3db for each doubling of drivers, while the total input remains at 1w in for each case

1 speaker  96db@1w  total input


2 speakers  99db@1w  total input


4 speakers  102db@1w  total input


8 speakers  105db@1w  total input


16 speakers  108db@1w  total input


32 speakers  111db@1w  total input     Just 1 db under100%eff.

So where does this gain come from?  Run the numbers on any speaker response graphing software and you will see it is true. I and many professionals use free WinIsd   it is accurate and does the job with ease.

64 speakers 114db@1w total   157%eff of Pin/Pae     Power in measured in Watts and Pae measured in Watts. Watts do not take on a different definition for each.

So now lets say we have 32 speakers 111db@1w and we put them in a ported enclosure tuned to say 60hz. at 60hz we will obtain even more gain by way of resonance of the tuned enclosure. All still at 1w..  You can read that thread for more on this.

The Ign coil is probably very inefficient. The one I used in the vid is no where near 100%eff.  Lol just the losses in the outer can can be very apparent if you think on it.

The ign coil example just shows the gain by way of resonance added to the existing system by adding the cap. I am in no way saying that the output spark is over 100%eff with the input.  it is just a resonance gain example.  Now if we had a more useful job for the output of the secondary, then we should look to improve the efficiency of that transformer before adding resonance to take it over the top.

On the speaker thread we have a  guy that tried measuring the output of a pulse motor starting with 1 coil then 2, then 4 then finally 8, all while adjusting the input to the same power input for each case.. You can read his results he discovered there. So we already have someone that can confirm the claim I am making on that.

Not saying we need to use speakers to make an OU device. If we examine the speakers eff and resonance activities, then we should try to use that as a basis for designing circuit to accomplish the same.  Adding drivers by doubling, we already have a path to ou. Its there, just keep doubling. Resonance can help us get further without doubling drivers any further.

Mags

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2017, 05:29:20 PM »

 

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