Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Gravity powered devices => Gravity powered devices => Topic started by: vikram_gupta11 on September 28, 2017, 04:32:03 AM

Title: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on September 28, 2017, 04:32:03 AM
Dear Members,
See the attached link.
https://youtu.be/NTKw2Hp6tPw

Now I explain in simple words how it will work.
In the video you can see a seesaw having two ball each side .the red color ball side arm of seesaw is slightly heavier than green color side arm.the weight of each ball is 30 gram and weight of each box is 20 gram.
The red ball is a counterweight and green ball will work to create energy.
The green ball will be free to move but counterweight will be permanently mounted.
Now I explain:
When I lift up the arm of green color ball up to a certain height and then you can see the movement of ball in the video that ball is moving due to a slope .
But when I left the arm then the ball is getting back it's previous position or in other words the seesaw is getting back it's horizontal position due to overunity.
It is totally against physics laws as ,as per physics laws the seesaw shouldn't get back it's horizontal position but in the video you can see it clearly.
Now replace this ball with 10 kg.ball and counterweight 10.200 kg.and calculate input and output using potential energy formula.
In this mechanism don't think about input as input will be very minimal but think about output.
The movement of ball in the box will work as a output so the length of arm and length of box will be also important.
The ball mass=10 kg.
The length of arm is=1 meter
The length of box is=80 cm.
The width will be depend on the diameter of ball.
Now calculations:
Input is very minimal
Output if a 10 kg ball will be rolled down from 10 cm height(though the height will be more) than using potential energy formula
10*10*.10=10 joule
So the output will be 10 joule but input will be very minimal.
I would like to insist on some following points.
(1)the angle of box will be 120 degree downside(see the Sketch)
(2) two piston generator will be mounted on the sidewall of the box.
If still you have any doubts then pls tell me.
(3)there is overunity in this mechanism otherwise seesaw wouldn't get back it's horizontal position.
I request you that if you any doubt regarding to understanding then pls tell me as I am ready to clear your all doubts.
Vikram Kumar Gupta

Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: profitis on September 28, 2017, 06:44:32 PM
"as per physics
laws the seesaw shouldn't get back it's horizontal
position but in the video you can see it clearly"

Its getting a free ride?
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on September 30, 2017, 02:44:56 PM

The most important point is in this mechanism we can increase the potential energy of the ball as per our desire by doing some changes in the design of box.and yes in other words the potential energy is the most important and if it is increasing after applying minimal input then the output will be more than input.
I have already sent you a video.it is not a big hurdle to increase the potential energy in this mechanism.
The green ball will move between piston generators and will hit these generator .when the ball hit the generator then in response generator will work to hit it back and this will be an advantage in this mechanism.
There is nothing to think more and more in this mechanism as we are increasing potential energy by using minimal input.

There are only three points.
(1) the input is very minimal to lift a heavy mass(10kg)
(2) we can increase potential energy of 10 kg.mass using minimal input. (3) the seesaw is getting back it's initial position without using any extra energy. If these points works in a system then no physics can prevent it to get OVERUNITY
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on October 02, 2017, 08:05:40 AM
See the link
https://youtu.be/9yQ9Ln7jBQ8
In the video the potential energy is being increased of the ball using minimal energy but after getting a certain height it will fall down and get back it's initial position due to the unique design of seesaw without any extra energy.
The design ,as per sketch,of box will work to hold the ball.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on October 06, 2017, 03:17:23 PM
Some research scientist from Kharkiv Polytechnic institute has approved it.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on October 23, 2017, 05:05:28 PM
I would like to tell everyone that Noether theorem will not work in this mechanism.i have consulted with a very renowned Chartered Physicist and he is very confused as neither he is deny nor accepting the feasibility of this mechanism.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 01, 2017, 03:11:58 PM
Hello sir,
Overunity achieved.
Overunity achieved
See the link
https://youtu.be/1raDr-qRtrg
The weight of ball is 500 gram and counterweight is 800 gram.the seesaw is tilted towards counterweight side.
The ball is falling down from 80 cm height at the time of tilting and from 70 cm height at the time of reversing of arm.
The counterweight is lifting up only 30 cm.Now calculate input and output.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 02, 2017, 05:02:33 PM
There is a very interesting point in it which is clearly proving overunity.what is that?
The point is that input will be same if ball doesn't fall down or in rest position when I tilt the seesaw from 70 to 120 degree angle.the seesaw will be also get reversed in the position if ball doesn't fall down.it is not a big matter but main point is if input is same in both condition if ball fall down or doesn't then output??? Or what is about kinetic energy of ball ??
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 03, 2017, 05:45:30 AM
There is clear cut Overunity in this mechanism.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: blueplanet on December 03, 2017, 06:01:44 PM
It looks good.
I have not witnessed the experiment in person but I don't want to be on the side of the debunking crowd.
I wish to get a prototype to satisfy myself.




EDIT: To solve the "world problem", you have to make it permanently unstable. Hope you get an investor for this!
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 04, 2017, 08:55:31 AM
Hello,
One more point if I add a 40 cm long box with the top (remember top ,not bottom where ball is located)then the height will be increased and ball will traveled 120 cm and 110 cm.but interestingly the input energy will be same as the height of bottom is remain same.just increased the height of top.
The input will remain same but output will be increased.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: Low-Q on December 04, 2017, 11:13:46 PM
Hello Vikram,


As per conversation on Messenger, I have not got time to look into your latest video in detail. But what I suggests, is that the mass in the long tube is falling down because the angle of the tube makes it to.
Further, the experiment needs a hand to repeat the cycle. That means, per definition, that this is not over unity. It might be over unity for the first half cycle, but the device is doing only a half cycle. It need to be self sustained motion. Even acelerate. If you achieve this, you got over unity.
You also lack precicion in your judgment of the experiment. You hand cannot tell the exact energy input. More easily, the energy input is little due to the counterweight. I can see that. However, the experiment is only a half cycle experiment. The "wheel" should continue to spin. But it's not. I do, somewhat, understand how you're thinking. Lifting a mass with little effort, and yet, the mass is falling down with greater energy than the input. That is true for the half cycle. The next half cycle require the rest of the energy, and more, to be accepted as over unity. That's my thoughts.


If you got time, you're welcome to discuss my submerged buoyancy gravity wheel in a new thread here. I also sent you pictures on Messenger. I cannot see where I do the mistake. It MUST conserve energy, but I cannot see where. Not yet.


Vidar
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 05, 2017, 08:30:23 AM
Hello Sir,
There is overunity in it .it doesn't matter whether it is half way or full way.you are forgetting one point that the ball has been rotate at 360 degree completely or completed one cycle.
Can you please tell me such device where half way Overunity is being demonstrate d.?
There are three main reason due to which the device is not getting more acceleration.
(1) the tube is not perfectly bound with arm.
(2) the arm get twisted as nail and hole are not perfect.
(3) the most important the counterweight is fixed .if I use a ball as a counterweight in the box then the ball will get jump when 500 gram of long tube hit the top of box .it means the counterweight will be weight less upto that time when ball is in air in the box so the device will get momentum.
These are main reason.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 05, 2017, 08:36:17 AM
I want to know if I use two piston generator to get energy from this device and this energy work to lift up the system again then will it be considered as an Overunity as the main purpose is to get more output than input.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: Low-Q on December 05, 2017, 08:51:52 AM
I want to know if I use two piston generator to get energy from this device and this energy work to lift up the system again then will it be considered as an Overunity as the main purpose is to get more output than input.
If you attach a generator to the falling mass, the mass will fall slower due to its load. Then the kinetic energy will drop, but in return you get another form of energy. In that energy conversion there is loss. So the total outpup will be less than without the generator.
In the video, the seesaw turns some degrees, around 90 degrees or so. If you attach a generator, some of the kinetic energy which earlier was used to turn the seesaw 90 degrees, will drop, so it will turn less than 90 degrees. If you load it 50%, it will turn somewhere around 50-60 degrees.


Vidar
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 05, 2017, 09:24:40 AM
Hello sir,
I know about it but I am talking about spring based piston generator not coil + magnet.as spring based generator will not create word of the kinetic energy of ball when ball hit it at the time of timing and reversing.
I already mentioned that the kinetic energy can be in increased by adding more box with the top of long tube but input same so the friction of generator can be compensated.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: Low-Q on December 05, 2017, 01:36:37 PM
Hello sir,
I know about it but I am talking about spring based piston generator not coil + magnet.as spring based generator will not create word of the kinetic energy of ball when ball hit it at the time of timing and reversing.
I already mentioned that the kinetic energy can be in increased by adding more box with the top of long tube but input same so the friction of generator can be compensated.
An ideal spring does not take or give away kinetic energy. The mass will bounce up and down forever like a resonance system. The spring load itself does not apply or help the generator in any way. As soon as the generator is loaded, the spring will not longer bounce freely, but become slower and damped. Se it this way: A load works just like a shock absorber. A shock absorber picks up the kinetic energy so the car does not bounce out of control when driving on a bumpy road. The shock absorber becomes hot, because its job is to introduce friction to the resonance system.


Vidar
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 05, 2017, 04:32:19 PM
Hello sir,
But in this device this will not happened .spring generator means if I use a wall made with flexible rubber and this rubber wall hit a piston generator mounted outside from the device then I don't thing that it will not bounce back.it will definitely bounce back.
One more thing if I use two piston generator mounted on the both end of long tube then the ball will also bounce back after transferring it's kinetic energy to the piston.
No need to worry about bounce back of ball as the counterweight will work to get the seesaw it's original position as there is no hurdle in it.
I have already mentioned that the system will get back it's initial position if ball fall down or doesn't but interesting point is kinetic energy of ball.
Now you will again raise a question regarding load that the load will create problem but ball is free to move in the tube so ball and generator will work separate ly .there will be no hurdle regarding load.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 05, 2017, 04:48:31 PM
Hello sir,
If you will see closely in the video that ball has been stopped for a moment after hitting with top and again bounce back so  the generator will not work to create hurdle after connecting load .
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 05, 2017, 05:25:27 PM
One more thing I forgot to tell you that when I took counterweight equal to the weight of ball500 gram and tilted the arm then the system get it's initial position also from 120 degree to 360 degree.
Now if I have a spring generator then it will be a mechanical advantage as fall is falling down at the time of tilting and reversing so the ball will bounce back more due to compressed spring .
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: Low-Q on December 05, 2017, 06:44:58 PM
Hello sir,
But in this device this will not happened .spring generator means if I use a wall made with flexible rubber and this rubber wall hit a piston generator mounted outside from the device then I don't thing that it will not bounce back.it will definitely bounce back.
One more thing if I use two piston generator mounted on the both end of long tube then the ball will also bounce back after transferring it's kinetic energy to the piston.
No need to worry about bounce back of ball as the counterweight will work to get the seesaw it's original position as there is no hurdle in it.
I have already mentioned that the system will get back it's initial position if ball fall down or doesn't but interesting point is kinetic energy of ball.
Now you will again raise a question regarding load that the load will create problem but ball is free to move in the tube so ball and generator will work separate ly .there will be no hurdle regarding load.
How can you get energy out when the "spring" use all its stored kinetic energy to bounce the piston back?


Vidar
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 06, 2017, 04:55:16 AM
Hello sir,
It is very simple if spring has stored all kinetic energy then it will release it also when ball will reversed as ball is free to move.the best example is" Hand power fan" to understand it.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: Low-Q on December 06, 2017, 11:31:25 AM
Hello sir,
It is very simple if spring has stored all kinetic energy then it will release it also when ball will reversed as ball is free to move.the best example is" Hand power fan" to understand it.
Ok, but that means you cannot take energy out to run anything useful. The stored kinetic energy in the spring is not more than the kinetic energy applied from the piston, right?
So to achieve over unity, the spring must by magic create energy or pick up additional kinetic energy from some, yet unknown, energy source.
You must first understand that conservation of energy is constant everywhere in the observable universe. Then you must try to understand how to create energy from nothing. I believe that will be a very hard task that takes literally infinite time to figure out. I think you must travel that Sanatana Dharma (सनातन धर्म) to achieve over unity some day - well, actually not one day since that forever lasting road has no end :-)
Make a replica of the "device" below. With some modifications, it might be able to create energy instead of the world.


Vidar
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 06, 2017, 01:27:59 PM
Dear Sir,
I have clearly shown and proven the kinetic energy of falling ball and you say that from where it will come.
If spring based piston generator doesn't work in the device then all Hydropower plant must be shut down as no energy will be generated.
The only difference is between this device and hydro power plants is input energy.in Hydropower the output will be less than input but in this mechanism output is more than input.
The spring can store 99% energy so I preferred the spring based generator.
But I clear your doubts about using coil+ magnet generator.
Ok.this generator can be also used in it but use this generator only halfway of tube.
Suppose if tube length is 120 cm then only 60 cm in middle of tube.
You will found same result.(overunity)

Edit: there will be need of very less kinetic energy in this mechanism to reverse it.you say that the coil+ magnet will work to slow the kinetic energy,yes you are correct but once ball pass the coil then it's kinetic energy will be increased again and this energy will be sufficient to reversed the device.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 06, 2017, 02:32:18 PM
Dear Sir,
I have already studied very much about "Dharma and Darsan." The image you send me is of "Natraj".a God of energy destroyer not creator but I send you a image see it .you will get surprised that my device is very much similar to that replica.
Lord Vishnu an energy creator.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 06, 2017, 02:50:53 PM
This is not a particular image.just type "Lord Vishnu in Khseer Sagar". The image shows if Lord Vishnu is sleeping in this position then energy is being created and billions universes are being created.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 06, 2017, 05:25:27 PM
I would like to insist on one point that mass is important in it .so the device will also work in that case if we use coil + magnet generator but mass must not reduced.as mass is important factor in it.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: Low-Q on December 06, 2017, 10:00:17 PM
I would like to insist on one point that mass is important in it .so the device will also work in that case if we use coil + magnet generator but mass must not reduced.as mass is important factor in it.
I guess I have to build one and measure input energy and output energy. Your system is simple, so it should not take long.
I already have a structure with a small flywheel with low loss ball bearings. I got to mount a seesaw on that one, with counterweight and a tube where the mass is falling down into.


Vidar
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 07, 2017, 05:07:55 AM
Sure,test it.there is clear cut Overunity in it without any flaw.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 08, 2017, 06:55:45 AM
The sketch is clearly proving overunity in this mechanism.
Consider that box are weight less so input will be same in both cases but kinetic energy of ball.?
No doubt kinetic energy will be increased in long tube.
Input less output more.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 10, 2017, 06:05:01 PM
See the link.i did some changes to prove Overunity.for calculations.
https://youtu.be/XjfA3GqRTXg

If calculate then .the length of tube is 1 meter and it's 30 cm length is mounted with arm.the rest 70 cm is upside so I will have to lift up only 30 cm with 10 kg mass.
If counter weight is 13 kg then the seesaw will be tilted already 70 degree.
The arm length is 2 meter.
Now if I lift up the 10 kg mass then toal mgh=130 Joule but minus 100 Joule of counter weight.
30 joule + 30 Joule of extra counterweight energy so total 60 Joule.
But ouput if ball fall down from 1 meter then 100 Joule and again fall down at the time of reversing then 90 Joule so total output energy will be 190 Joule but input is only 60 Joule.
Even I myself feeling the energy of falling ball in the device but at the time of booking the energy is very less.though hand is not perfect way but I think the difference can be find out by anyone falling ball and input energy.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 10, 2017, 06:09:04 PM
The arm is getting twisted due to lack of perfection between nail and hole otherwise there would be clear-cut momentum in it.
I did it with 80 cm arm but if I take 2 meter arm then the center of mass can be kept equal to fulcrum.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 10, 2017, 06:15:27 PM
Noether theorem will not work in this mechanism as it is stopping for a moment in each back and forth step.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 12, 2017, 06:03:35 PM
E = mgh(initial) - mgh (final)

Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: Low-Q on December 12, 2017, 08:20:58 PM
E = mgh(initial) - mgh (final)
0 - 0 to be exact.


Vidar
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 13, 2017, 12:36:24 AM
The real issue with See-saws comes into play when you
consider Momentum.


Mass in motion, at whatever velocity, will have its own
Energy equations, that include energy from the gravitational
Field.


A lot of people get hung up trying to “grab” that.
A tiny imbalance can set motion to innumerable mass
Now you have a numerical conservation of energy problem.


And you can spend a lifetime of debate over it.


But none of the debators will take the Archer Quinn challenge
And stand under innumerable mass see-saw with a pebble on your end.


100 lbs can lift 100 lbs.
100 lbs + 1 gram can reverse the situation
You can lift extra any amount >1gram to regain the energy of your gram.
And also you have the momentum of
BOTH halves of the See saw crashing into whatever is under it.


See more at www.howthermodynamicscanblowme.com
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 13, 2017, 08:17:47 AM
Hello sir,
The velocity of mass is equal to velocity of box.but at the time of falling down the velocity of ball will be increased.it means the kinetic will be increased.
At the time of tilting the box velocity will be 0 but ball velocity will be not 0.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 13, 2017, 08:37:52 AM
You say 100 lbs can lift up 100 lbs and 1. Gram can reverse the situation but 1 gram cannot lift up 100 lbs and reverse the situation.
But in this mechanism the less mass is lifting up heavy mass.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 13, 2017, 08:54:32 AM
At the time of tilting the box + ball velocity is equal but at the point when ball start to falling down then box velocity is 0 but ball velocity has been increased.
If I drop a 10 kg ball from ,1 meter height .it will never get it's previous height but in this mechanism the ball is getting it's previous height.
If ball would slide in the box then there would be no gain but the is falling down (Free fall)at the time of tilting and reversing despite loss of energy due to impact.
So what is this if it is not overunity?
I have already mentioned that the arm length is only 80 cm but if I take a 2 meter long arm then I can locate center of mass above fulcrum.
And no doubt the arm will get its original position without any external influence.
I am interested in Free fall of ball.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 13, 2017, 11:08:17 AM

If the height were 80cm
10x0.8/0.1/0.1 =800 Joules




Impact force of ball = 9.8 N


Kinetic energy gained by ball = 96.04 Joules


If height is raised, so is time of fall.
Time is important because it is s^2 in the equation
The longer the fall, the more acceleration.
Greater impact force, and greater kinetic energy change
for the ball.


Also greater input to lift ball.


If lift is leveraged, force x distance of lift decreases.
Thus total change in energy becomes more favorable.
At some height, with some leveraged mass:
There is a mathematical gain in kinetic energy.
This is because the gravitational constant is altered
by the lever, but not the free fall.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 13, 2017, 12:56:24 PM
Dear sir,
The height is 80 cm
So it is as per mgh= 80 joule
But you forget that the ball is also falling down at the time of reversing from 70 cm
So mgh= 70 Joule
So total output is 150 Joule
But input is only 60 Joule.
Now you say that time is important in it.
Yes time can be increased but input will be same as interesting ly there will be need of increasing very less input.
How input will be same.
I explain it.

In my experiment the box length is 80 cm and arm length is also 80 cm.
But if I take arm length 2 meter then I can take box length 2 meter also.
If I mount 60 cmlength of this 2 meter long boxthen the ball fall down from 2 meter height
So output will be
Mgh=200 Joule
Again reverse output
Mgh=190 Joule
So total output
200+190= 390 Joule

Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 13, 2017, 01:07:29 PM
you say that 1 gram can reverse the 100 lbs but I take counterweight 1 kilogram.
Now if 60 cm box length is mounted underfulcrumthen input
Mgh=10*10*.6=60 Joule
And 1 kilogram weight
Mgh=1*10*1=10 Joule

So total input is =70 Joule
Edit: counterweight=11 kg.or 1100 gram
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 13, 2017, 01:44:15 PM
Dear sir,
There is double falling down of ball.inputbis single but output is double.the ball is falling down at the time of tilting and also reversing.
You say that it is not due to free fall but I have already mentioned that the hole and nail is not perfect as arm is getting twisted and working as a brake but if build perfectly then the leverage will be increased due to free fall.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 13, 2017, 05:50:39 PM
See the image.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 14, 2017, 02:26:57 PM
The sketch is clearly showing Overunity in this mechanism.
I used a massless box to increase the circumference in the video
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 15, 2017, 06:38:29 PM
If build perfectly then there will be only need of tilting just 30 degree more from 90 degree to decrease force* distance and increase leverage.
There is no flaw in this mechanism.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 16, 2017, 01:41:30 AM
Do you plan to build it?
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 16, 2017, 10:50:16 AM
Dear Sm0ky2 sir,
I want to build it but I think a team work is needed to build it perfectly as I don't have too much sources.
So now guide me and tell me about your thoughts.
Vikram
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 16, 2017, 02:39:37 PM
If the arm and one half on the tube formed two sides of a right-triangle
Then a hypotenuse drawn from the center of rotation to the outer end
Of one side of the tube


Represents your gravitational radius
This new drawn radius represents the gravitational path of travel
For the counterweight, and partial path for the ball when it is opposite the weight


If you position the device so the imaginary hypotenuse is vertical (straight up)
That is the height the weights must be lifted


When the rotating arm is positioned horizontal, and the tube is vertical
A line drawn vertical through the tube represents the center of gravity of the device


When the arm is at 45-degrees, with the counterweight up, ball down
This is the pivot point, where gravity will decide to pull clockwise, or counterclockwise
Because of the location of the weight, in relationship to the center of gravity


In your setup, you have the tube flipped upside down from my above analysis.
So that as the arm approaches the vertical, center of gravity
The ball falls.
When this happens, the new center of gravity becomes a vertical line drawn
directly below the counterweight and ball, at the bottom end of the tube.


And the ball returns to its end of the tube when the counterweight and ball reach
the 45-degree pivot point.


From this analysis, we can now draw another line, 90-degrees from the pivot-point
To the vertical imaginary hypotenuse
Forming a 45/45/90 triangle


A measurement taken vertically from the pivot to the top of the hypotenuse
And again from the bottom of the tube (on the center of gravity line) to the pivot


Now we see,
the weight being lifted is 2x lifted one half the distance,
During half of its' motion
1x weight lifted during the other half.
The ball falls twice, one half distance
(If you see the intentional exclusion here, give a thumbs up to Chas Campbell
     and keep reading)
Adding these together, we have 1x weight lifted 1.5 distance
and 1x weight falling 1 distance


We are still losing 1x weight lifted 0.5 distance


This can be balanced by extending the arm beyond the center of rotation
And placing a counterweight on the opposite end of the arm.


Now the energy of the ball falling twice balances out with no gravitational loss.
Only lost is the small energy required to rotate the device.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Suppose the ball in the tube were replaced with a fixed weight, equal to the counterweight
And the rotating arm became a tube with a ball.


Now, when the device reaches the pivot point, the ball will fall down the length of the arm,
Adding to the counterweight we placed on the extension
This imparts rotational force to the arm, bringing it around to the bottom
Where it will remain. However, analysis of this shows that we lift the ball 1/2 diameter (r)
Then it is balanced, and requires little energy to continue rotation to the pivot point.
Our ball falls 1/2 D (or the radial length of the arm from the rotational center)
And we ragain our input.
Only lost is the small energy required to rotate the device.


This is the moment of inertia of the mass of the device.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


In a complete circle of rotation, both devices, as described above, are balanced.
There is no net energy gain around a complete circle.


By breaking each step of the rotation down into pieces,
We see that the potential and kinetic energy changes drastically during different steps.


If the device is only allowed to move during certain parts of rotation
As shown in your demonstration
The question remains whether or not the changes in potential and kinetic energy
are equal to a non-zero value across the range of restricted rotation.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Back to your original set-up:
(In this analysis the transitional momentum of the ball cancels out)


With the arm horizontal, and tube vertical at the center of gravity line.
Both the ball, and the counterweight are at the bottom of the tube.
(This is below the center of rotation)


The height of "lift" in your set-up, is the vertical distance between this low-stage
And the height of the pivot-point.
This height is 1.5r
The ball falls 2r
And is balanced on the return path (opposite direction)


We see here, that 2x the weight are being lifted 1.5r
But only 1x weight (the ball) is falling.
The missing quantity (1x weigh, height of 0.5r) is regained below the pivot-point
Where 2x weight is falling 1.5 r


Now we have an extra quantity of 1x weight falling 0.5r


In the complete circle analysis, we see the opposite value subtracted on the opposite
quadrant of rotation.
However, we restrict the rotation, so this is not allowed to occur.


We have now a situation, where each oscillation results in a net energy gain of:


[1m x 0.5r x 9.8m/s^2 ] - [friction, moment of inertia, wind resistance, etc.]


This is because for 1/2 r the lifted ball mass is cancelled out by the balancing counterweight.


Up to this quantity of energy could possibly be extracted at the axis of rotation
During the clockwise (down) transition until the arm reaches horizontal, with the tube
vertical on the center of gravity line.


The details are in how we translate this back into oscillating motion.
3x the gained energy could be extracted, the. 2/3 of it put back in?


Congratulations Mr. Gupta
Your device has survived round 1 of my gravitational analysis.


Of course, I do miss obvious factors sometimes, so I could be mistaken about some detail.
But so far, this looks legit.


If anyone reading this thread has some thoughts, input, test suggestions, or comments of any kind,
Please add to my analysis, or make corrections.



Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 16, 2017, 02:53:10 PM
We would want to restrict the rotation to 10-degrees left of vertical,
And on the lower end, to the horizontal line. (Tube vertical).
Any more than this will decrease from the gain.
And we probably want to lock it less than completely horizontal.
As suggested by the author.



Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 18, 2017, 03:08:43 PM
Dear Sm0ky2 sir,
See the sketch.
As per sketch if we mount the long tube at 70 degree angle and curved the arm of counterweig ht towards upside then the tilting phase will be reduced .
There will be need of only  just 10 degree more to tilt the device from 90 degree angle.
Hope these two small changes will help you to analyze the device more perfectly.
The main reason to  curved the arm of counterweight is center of mass.
If apply perfectly then there is no doubt regarding the feasibility of this device.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 18, 2017, 03:12:42 PM
Sketch
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 18, 2017, 08:56:43 PM
It appears to be mathematically coherent.
We should build some kind of test model
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 19, 2017, 04:42:41 AM
Dear Sm0ky2 sir,
If you could build it then try it and as per my video everything is fine in this mechanism.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: webby1 on December 19, 2017, 06:42:50 PM
Could you pleas provide measurements for the center of mass positions and the intersects for the arms.


If you have a 2m arm with the pivot in the center and then you have another 2m arm attached to one end of that at say like a 40cm to 160cm split for the point of attachment.


Using your video as a rough guide I needed to increase the counter balance mass to 18kg with a 10kg moving mass to get a balance point that looked similar,, and then the only way I could get it to "reset" was by over-lifting the long arm end to get the counter balance weight moved far enough to use momentum to get the moving weight to shift.


As you can see I must be missing something and so would like the actual measurements,, otherwise what I am showing is that the cost is the same as the return.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 20, 2017, 06:20:31 PM
Hello Webby Sir,
See the sketches to clear your doubts.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 20, 2017, 06:57:04 PM
Dear Webby Sir,
The length of tube is 2 meter and this tube is mounted 60 cm.under the fulcrum and it's rest part 1.6 meter will be mounted above fulcrum.
The counterweight arm will be designed in this way (curved upside 60 cmt)that center of mass will be equal to fulcrum.
The device will be in tilted position if you take 18 kg counterweig ht.but if possible then try to take it 50 degree in rest position.
There will be no problem up to 90 degree to tilt it but after 90 degree there will be need of only 10 degree more to tilt it so that the ball could fall down.
Now calculate it .as far as I think this mechanism is completely an overunity mechanism.

Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: webby1 on December 20, 2017, 08:27:11 PM
Which one is correct?


I Think you mean the one on the right.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: webby1 on December 20, 2017, 09:08:44 PM
Going by the video I get this setup.


The weight starts out at the lower.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 21, 2017, 08:12:48 AM
Hello Webby Sir,
The right one is correct as ball is positioned at lower part of tube.
But in third one just change the position of lower and upper side of tube.the orange circle is lower part of tube and blue circle is upper part.in this position the ball is falling down from lower to towards upper and after hitting upper side the arm is reversing and ball is again falling down from upper to lower side of tube.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 21, 2017, 10:58:28 AM
In this mechanism the counterweights arm will be curved upside to locate the center of mass equal to fulcrum.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 23, 2017, 05:12:12 AM
Hello Webby Sir,
What's your thoughts?
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 23, 2017, 05:43:11 AM
All mathematics is favour in this mechanism as well as technical.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 23, 2017, 05:43:45 AM
There is a need of collaboration to build it completely.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 23, 2017, 06:47:59 AM
Hello Sm0ky2 sir,
 your and other members guidance is important now.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: webby1 on December 23, 2017, 08:30:19 AM
Hello Webby Sir,
What's your thoughts?


So far I have no good input, but when time permits I am still trying more setups as far as angle and all that goes.


What I have so far seen is that the center of mass is lifted the equivalent value as the fall of the dropping mass.  I change the masses and small relationships but it still seems to stay the same.


This is why I asked a few ways of how you have things setup.  If the mass's are in line with the pivot or not and all that.  It does not matter if you bend the arm, it is where the mass is relative to the other mass and the pivot, all 3 points,  how they are connected to each other does not matter so much.


One thing I did find is that a sudden upwards thrust on the pivot will send the weight back over the top no problem,, so I would suggest using a very firm stand to hold the pivot so that it does not move.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 23, 2017, 11:17:34 AM
Dear Webby Sir,
Did you mount the counterweight on the" Flip" side of arm?
As when I mounted both mass on a single side of arm the input was not good but when I mounted the counterweight on the flip side of arm then input was good.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 23, 2017, 04:51:56 PM
Dear Webby Sir,
The device will work as per your expectation if we use a lock mechanism to hold counterweight after tilting the device.this lock mechanism will work in this way that it will be locked at the time of tilting the device after tilting it from 90 degree( as there is no problem up to 90 degree due to counterweight).
So that the counterweight will be lifted upside due to falling mass when the falling mas hit the upper side of tube.in this way the device will get momentum.
The lock system will be designed in this way that it will be unlocked due to energy falling counterweight as the counterweight will get momentum so as the whole device.
Now your main problem is solved.
As far as I think there will be need of maximum 5 joule energy to this lock mechanism.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: webby1 on December 23, 2017, 05:35:54 PM
The lock does not need any energy,, built those in the real world where you only had to blow on the release,, a little puff of air.


As I have time I will keep trying small changes and different offsets, the place relative to the pivot that the mass is relative to the other mass.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 23, 2017, 06:35:11 PM
Dear Webby Sir,
You are correct that lock doesn't need any energy but I want to tell you that it will work to prevent the falling of counterweight after tilting the device from 90 degree so that the counterweight could move up to provide momentum to the device and decreasing input and increasing leverage.
But you are expert so I think you better than me.
Thank you sir.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: webby1 on December 23, 2017, 06:51:48 PM
I am no expert, I just like playing with things.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 23, 2017, 06:55:27 PM
But you can also play better than me.
Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 24, 2017, 03:13:22 AM
Try rotating your degrees of freedom more into the vertical domain.
At no point should the center of gravity drop below the axis.


If the arm is 90-degrees facing the right side:
Draw a vertical line where the arm is.


Now raise the arm until the center of mass
Crosses that line near the 45-deg or so
The weight will fall left.
Balancing the arm to either side of this line
Should be the operation of the device.
The ball falls twice.
Left then right

Title: Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
Post by: vikram_gupta11 on December 28, 2017, 03:10:17 PM
Dear Sir,
As per sketch there will be need of tilting the device just few degree more so that the ball could fall down.
There will be a lock mechanism which will work to prevent the counterweight up to that time when ball hits the upper part of tube .
The lock mechanism will work in this way that it will be unlocked due to impact of counterweight.