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Author Topic: Cathodic ray Emmisions. i need a plain expanation to a plain question.  (Read 2647 times)

Offline baroutologos

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hello all,


It has been a while since my last post here. Some years for sure... Having the OU research buried in the past, nonetheless i read renown scientific articles with special interest in those involving energy and techological advantages towards cleaner, cheaper and more distributed energy systems. But the virus of the past persists... so i need someone knowledgeable to asnwer me this question.


***


We all know about the cathodic ray emmisions and how a CRT tv or monitor works or even a electron (or ion) gun.
My question is why?


For conversation's shake i elaborate. We know in a vaccum or near vaccum tube we have an cathode, heated for ease so as to stimulate thermionic electron emmision, and to few cm or spaced a bit apart an anode of considerable voltage (in respect to cathode) say in the region of few Kilo volts.
We all know that the freed electrons in the exhasted tube are accelarated towards the anode, avoiding as much collisions as possible since vaccum tube (or near)  and impact on it. Well, not all. Some, due to anode's geometry, are passing through and leaving anode's attraction field having gained substantial kinetic energy in the region of some KeV? (right?) then they go far and collide to a fluorescence substance (for monitor use), or another surface (for x-rays production use) etc.


MY POINT: If the electrical field is a conservative field, that would not happen. In my understanding, all electrons should be accelarated and those passing through due to anode's geometry, should start decellarating after passing through and if they somehow manage to escape anode's attraction should have a NET ENERGY GAIN OF 0.


In my simple thinking, those electrons impacting the anode, transfer their energy gained (due to the electrostatic field) as heat, radiation etc thus closing the HV circuitry. Those that indeed escaping, presumably with gainned energy, even though "they close the circuit" with the cathode they never make electrical interference with anode, so leaving anode's field magnitude undiminished to that extent.


QUESTIONS: Is this a irregularity? Can be described as those particular escpaing electrons as gaining free kinetic energy? The electric field is not so conservative field after all?




Thanks for reading my thoughts. Please try to enlighten me, with simple analogies, insights (qualitative answer) and spare from excessive equations and the like. On the other hand, conspiracists, ufologists etc your are on the wrong topic.




Thank you,
Baroutologos

ps: certainly the phenomenon looks like the gravitational accelaration due to sling shot for space shuttles, but in the sling shot case we have a mere transfer of energy.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline lancaIV

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Re: Cathodic ray Emmisions. i need a plain expanation to a plain question.
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2017, 09:04:40 PM »
probably  here you will find the first answer :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lamp

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/184899/difference-between-fusion-plasma-and-fluorescent-lamp-plasmas

"When viewed through the conceptual lens of the Widom-Larsen theory, Mead et al.’s carefully collected Hg isotope data suggests that low energy nuclear reaction (LENR) transmutations may actually be occurring at extremely low rates in CFLs during normal operation," he said.

http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/WL/WLTheory.shtml
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widom-Larsen_theory

He has found evidence of LENRs occurring in lithium-ion batteries, catalytic converters, and naturally in bacterial processes and lightning.

http://newenergyandfuel.com/http:/newenergyandfuel/com/2013/04/03/a-nuclear-reactor-in-every-room/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2013/03/14/tiny-nuclear-reactions-inside-compact-fluorescent-bulbs/#316dc7c76bd7

next link "recombination" related :
http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~jchluba/Science/Recombination_Physics.pdf

Sincerely
             OCWL


Offline pomodoro

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Re: Cathodic ray Emmisions. i need a plain expanation to a plain question.
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2017, 01:56:11 AM »
The electrons passing past the anode do so at great velocity. If the target is close to the anode, they don't have enough time to decelerate and change trajectory, they slam into the target instead.  If you remove the target  and have enough space for them, they will turn back and eventually hit the anode.  Any electrons escaping the circuit are replaced by an earthed cable to prevent an excessive positive charge building up on the circuit. No OU as the total energy used by the circuit turns into heat at the anode or target. Even if the electrons escaped for ever at high velocity, their kinetic energy was from the power supply


I believe a user on here posted a device using the theory you describe. Unfortunately noone bothered to replicate. Check out his link.
http://overunity.com/15667/thermionic-overunity-generator-my-gift-to-the-world/msg444591/#msg444591

Offline Void

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Re: Cathodic ray Emmisions. i need a plain expanation to a plain question.
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2017, 03:38:19 AM »
I believe a user on here posted a device using the theory you describe. Unfortunately noone bothered to replicate. Check out his link.
http://overunity.com/15667/thermionic-overunity-generator-my-gift-to-the-world/msg444591/#msg444591

Hi pomodoro . I actually did try it using an Eimac 4-400A tube, using a setup
exactly as it was described by Arthur. I tried applying the 2000VDC to the
control grid and then the screen grid since Arthur didn't specify, but all
I was got was internal arcing in the tube with either grid, and although the internal
arcing noise eventually stopped after several tests, the voltage on either grid would
not go above about 400VDC. Not sure if that was due to continued internal arcing or
some other form of leakage or what.  I had 6,600 ohms of resistance connected to
the plate for the initial testing, and only tried removing the resistive load to compare when
the my tests were not working, so all my initial testing was done with 6,600 ohms connected
to the plate. 

I could get between 4mA to 5mA grid current with the applied grid voltage set high
enough, but the voltage on the grid still would not go above 400V (measured
on my scope) and there was only a tiny output voltage on the plate with or without the
resistive load connected. The internal arcing may have damaged my tube, not sure, and those 4-400A
power tubes are not cheap. Since the tubes are so expensive ($120 USD or higher) I won't 
buy a new 4-400A tube to try further. :) Maybe it really was just a hoax, but Arthur seemed to
know what he was talking about, so that is why I tried it. My circuit test setup was identical to the
schematic Arthur had provided. Too bad Arthur didn't stick around as I would be interested to
hear what he has to say about my failed tests. :)
All the best...




Offline baroutologos

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Re: Cathodic ray Emmisions. i need a plain expanation to a plain question.
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2017, 07:00:16 AM »
Thanks ppl for your replies.
 I certainly need time to study the links.


@ Pomodoro,


you have a point. maybe. From the few things i know about CRT monitors, the electron gun and the cathode anode distance is far smaller than the path the escaping electrons travel till to hit the fluoro coating. That means they indeed escape cathodes reverse attraction.


What it might be happening is through collisions during electron acceleration interchange velocities and somehow, some fall into the anode at lesser velocity than anticipated and others to have gained their lost energy portion thus gaining far larger velocities than they should have by the field alone thus totally escaping..


Then a net total energy is the one supplied by the HV source.


... Arthur Salady huh?


Hah, i suppose many people had the same "idea".


i wish i had the workshop and time to get my hands on it.
happy times




cheers,
barou

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Cathodic ray Emmisions. i need a plain expanation to a plain question.
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2017, 07:00:16 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline baroutologos

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Re: Cathodic ray Emmisions. i need a plain expanation to a plain question.
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2017, 06:59:39 PM »
Hello,


Ok without having experimenting with this concept, i believe with certainty 99% that Arthur's Salady concept cannot work.


Connecting a Vaccum Tube aplifier's the hot filament to the cathode (maybe grounded), and the grid to an High voltage Anode, thus having acceleration of the electrons through vaccum and the "collecting plate" to a load and then to the cathode, we have:


potential from Cathode to Anode = HV and
from Anode to Plate = - HV - voltage drop accross load.


Can work such thing? I mean electrons are attracted from the cathode to the ANode with the SAME magnitude and maybe less than repelled from the non-thermionic emmisive plate to the ANODE.
Does thermionic emmision would play any role?


Nevetheless it would be a cool experiment.
***

@void,

I envy you that you had the chance to have hands on experience. Still you noticed a tiny.. plate current to cathode? Interesting..
If i was about to replicate the experiment, i would have divised full current control in the HV circuitry, allowing adjustable say 0,5 - 5ma current to flow from filament to Grid. (adjustable. Controller will regulate HV potential donw to 0v say)

Grid is quite fragile and of low power dessipation. Is nothing hard actually to make, just an oscillator to a HV tranformer (rectified) and a small circuitry with sense resistor controlling duty cycle of oscillator.

Even someone can play with cathode's filament power and make observations of any current coming from plate.
***

Generaly the Tetrode 4-400A is a medium to High power valve with the technology of the space screen to anhance and extend the electrons cloud from thermionic emmision.
If the simple core of the effect works, it should be found (even feebler) in Triodes too,i.e. plain filament cathode, grid, anode.

It is not necessary to spend a fortunate to have some on hands experience. just you need the right controlling input circuitry to investigate if there is any effect at all.

***

cheers,
Barou


ps: cool experimenting but does not answer the fundamental question. where the energy should come from?

Offline Void

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Re: Cathodic ray Emmisions. i need a plain expanation to a plain question.
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2017, 10:24:26 PM »
Hi baroutologos. I was able to regulate the HV DC supply from a few hundred volts
up to several thousand volts DC by varying its supply voltage, but only saw a
small voltage on the plate across the load resistors even with the HV set to produce
close to 5 mA grid current.
All the best...


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Cathodic ray Emmisions. i need a plain expanation to a plain question.
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2017, 10:24:26 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline baroutologos

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Re: Cathodic ray Emmisions. i need a plain expanation to a plain question.
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2017, 10:49:29 PM »
Hi baroutologos. I was able to regulate the HV DC supply from a few hundred volts
up to several thousand volts DC by varying its supply voltage, but only saw a
small voltage on the plate across the load resistors even with the HV set to produce
close to 5 mA grid current.
All the best...


Thank you Void for the reply.


Why that small voltage happened? Maybe from plate to grid direct electron cold cathode emission rather than "traveling electrons from anode hiting the plate" ?
What magnitude the current had about? mA? uA? nA? ANy idea about the potential? logically the same or less as th HV applied.


Any idea about the polarity in respect to heated cathode?


Sorry for my wording diarrea, but cant help it.


cheers,
Barou

Offline Void

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Re: Cathodic ray Emmisions. i need a plain expanation to a plain question.
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2017, 11:41:41 PM »
Hi baroutologos. I think when I first hooked things up, the plate voltage
went up to around +200VDC with the 6,600 ohms (nominal) connected to the plate, but there
were arcing sounds coming from inside the tube, and I think after that the plate
voltage would not go above about +40VDC or so, no matter how I adjusted the grid voltage.

Maybe my tube was damaged from the arcing. At around 200VDC, that would be a plate/load current
of about 30mA, and at around 40VDC that would be a plate/load current of about 6mA. So maybe it
did work as Arthur described to a small extent, but I think the internal arcing or another leakage issue
with the grid was  not allowing the grid voltage to climb above 400V or so, at least in my tests. It may
have been an issue with the tube I have, although the tube was brand new and I think Eimac is a decent
quality tube brand. 


Offline baroutologos

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Re: Cathodic ray Emmisions. i need a plain expanation to a plain question.
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2017, 01:03:19 AM »
Thank you Void, again, for your practical insights.


***
Actually, in my way of understanding, since the plate had always positive voltage (even in small currents) means that the Principle of Arthur is not existant.
I would be far more intrigued if the plate had a negative voltage (in repsect to cathode)


Positive voltage means lack of electrons than migrated from the cold cathodic plate to the HV anodic grid. So, the circuits closes as


majority of electron current rushes from hot filament Cathode --> HV Positive Grid
minor electron current goes from cold Plate -> HV Positive Grid


if it were to accelarate the electrons of thermionic emmission from Hot cathodic filament to anodic grid and by gaining velocity missing the grid and hitting the plate, by default the plate would have been more NEGATIVE in respect to cathode and circuit's ground. The experimental opposite find (i.e. a more positive plate) means everything goes as expected to go.


Thanks,
Barou

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Cathodic ray Emmisions. i need a plain expanation to a plain question.
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2017, 01:03:19 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Void

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Re: Cathodic ray Emmisions. i need a plain expanation to a plain question.
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2017, 03:13:40 AM »
and yet, somehow the plate voltage was measuring as positive with a resistive load attached,
even though no voltage was applied to the plate...

Offline lancaIV

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Re: Cathodic ray Emmisions. i need a plain expanation to a plain question.
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2017, 04:16:27 AM »
http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3769

If 1 atom(e) and his fission can become measured the question
about free surplus energy or not is not more hindered to become answered because physical test(e)able.

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=GB&NR=2122026A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19840104&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP#

Viewed from one aspect, the invention provides a method of producing electrical discharges, such  as for electrical discharge lamps, in which d.c. or a.c. voltage is applied to two spaced discharge electrodes located in an ionisable medium, and electrically positively charged and electrically negatively charged particles are produced in this medium, characterised in that, in the region of one discharge electrode, both discharge electrodes or a plurality of discharge electrodes, monopolar columns or layers which comprise charged particles and are separated from one another and shorten the discharge distance between the discharge electrodes are formed as a result of an electrical voltage between the discharge electrodes separated by a dielectric, so that the electrical discharge takes place partially between the columns or layers and adjacent columns or layers, or between adjacent columns or layers and discharge electrodes.

The classical electrical capacitor in its simplest form consists of two metal plates which are arranged parallel to each other and are insulated by the dielectric, and on which the opposite electrical charges (+ and -) collect.

This classical capacitor and the present invention differ in the following respect:


instead of the metal plates, ionised gas plasma constitutes at least one of the capacitor plates.



    A classical dielectric is located between such plasma capacitor plates. The electrical discharge then takes place between these plasma capacitor plates.
The most important physical phenomenon with respect to this plasma capacitor is that the discharge voltage builds up between the plasma capacitor plates and the surface of the dielectric.

As a result, only one high-voltage source is required, and this simultaneously provides the electrical voltage for the plasma capacitor and the electrical voltage for the electrical discharge.

Because of the design according to the invention, a monopolar plasma forms at the surface of the dielectric, depending on the polarity of the electrical voltage.
In the plasma thus formed, inelastic collisions occur between negative electrons and positive ions during electrical discharge.In accordance with the invention, elastic collisions between positive and negative ions on the surface of the dielectric take place in addition. These collisions produce monopolar electrostatic pulses.
The frequency of these electrostatic pulses has a very wide range, and is from a few kilohertz (kHz) to several hundred megahertz (MHz).
However, these electrostatic pulses are of low energy and can therefore be advantageously used for producing light in electrical discharge lamps.

Thus, the electrical discharge according to the invention represents, so to speak, a high-frequency generator which produces monopolar electrostatic pulses of low energy.

  cal discharge in a plasma capacitor as described above is unknown in the literature to date.

 As mentioned above, monopolar electrostatic high-frequency pulses are produced which result in a higher electron density than that achievable by means of the classical electrical discharge. The higher density of electrons in the discharge gas results in an increase in the number of collisions between the electrons on the one hand and the metal vapour atoms and gas atoms on the other hand, with the result that the luminous flux also increases in proportion. Such a novel electrical discharge can be very
advantageously used for producing light in electrical discharge lamps, since the light yield (in lumens
per watt, Im/W)  is two to three times as high as in known fluorescent lamps.Use of the electrical
discharge according to the present invention does not necessitate any change in the technical principle
of the fluorescent lamps or other discharge lamps. The only change is in the physical principle and in the
device for producing the electrical discharge. The efficiency of the fluorescent lamps which use the
invention is two to three times higher than that of the known fluorescent lamps.As a result of the
improved efficiency, only 50 to 33% of the electrical energy is required in order to produce the same
amount of luminous flux

search : Skin Spin(-tronic) Plasma

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=&IN=pavel+imris&CPC=&IC=&Submit=Search

if you read and explore virtual 4-dimensional his thinking then
you will understand the "surplus iono-magnetic energy field"
reached by capacive windings.


old low cost idea,but probably actually an ambiental pollution problem solver
http://google.com/patents/DE2151220A1?cl=en

equipment for each highschool and university for up to nano-scale measurements :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=manfred+gregor&IN=manfred+alexander+gregor&CPC=&IC=&Submit=Search

Offline baroutologos

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Re: Cathodic ray Emmisions. i need a plain expanation to a plain question.
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2017, 05:03:10 AM »
and yet, somehow the plate voltage was measuring as positive with a resistive load attached,
even though no voltage was applied to the plate...




Exactly, this makes perfectly sense. The circuitry is closed inside the tetrode with electrons flowing from cold plate to HV grid, thus showing a positive voltage across the resistive load.


In other words, yes no voltage was applied to plate, but it was applied to grid, and due to vicinity with the palte circuit is closed thus making a voltage drop accross resistor.


i do not know... its pretty obvious to me.


cheers and much thanks
Barou

Offline lancaIV

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Re: Cathodic ray Emmisions. i need a plain expanation to a plain question.
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2017, 07:03:50 AM »
https://www.google.pt/search?client=firefox-b&dcr=0&q=schrodinger+equation&spell=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZq-m2vLDWAhXQYVAKHWbdDdYQBQgiKAA&biw=640&bih=894

 here without -in aller Heisenbergschen Unschaerfe- cat

https://www.google.pt/search?q=laplace+operator&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=uKXAWZ2CM7Kp8we4jLrYDQ

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Christofilos
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christofilos_effect

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=DE&NR=3706385A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=3&date=19880908&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP#

http://translationportal.epo.org/emtp/translate/?ACTION=description-retrieval&COUNTRY=DE&ENGINE=google&FORMAT=docdb&KIND=A1&LOCALE=en_EP&NUMBER=3706385&OPS=ops.epo.org/3.2&SRCLANG=de&TRGLANG=en
The electromagnetic pulses (EMP) generated according to this theory represent, in principle, a transversal Compton current which, by means of resonance, influences compact technical systems consisting of electrically conductive material. This highly simplified rendering of the EMP-Compton theory is the fundamental finding and working basis for the investigation of the destructive force of the electromagnetic impulses (EMP). A EMP simulators, devices and apparatus of the prior art have been developed on the basis of this EMP-Compton theory

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compton-Effekt

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=DD&NR=264511A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=3&date=19890201&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP#

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=4&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19870603&CC=DD&NR=246367A5&KC=A5#

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=5&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19860730&CC=DD&NR=237897A5&KC=A5

Offline Turbo

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Re: Cathodic ray Emmisions. i need a plain expanation to a plain question.
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2017, 09:59:36 AM »
Dear baroutologos,

Please understand that it is not the kinetic energy, or free traveling electrons.
The so called 'ultor' will be the final anode that has the high voltage charge that is acting upon the electrons until they hit their target.
Think of this like modern powder coating where the target is given a high voltage charge to attract the powder particles.
Because it seems to me that you are thinking that the electrons are 'sprayed' onto the target screen whilst they are actually 'pulled' towards it.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Cathodic ray Emmisions. i need a plain expanation to a plain question.
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2017, 09:59:36 AM »

 

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