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Author Topic: Kelvin's Water Dropper Thunderstorm - without drops?  (Read 1679 times)

Offline LeoFreeman

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Kelvin's Water Dropper Thunderstorm - without drops?
« on: September 07, 2017, 05:30:19 AM »
Hello, I was wondering: could Lord Kelvin's (William Thompson's) Thunderstorm device be modified to
eliminate the need for water dropping to build up the static charges?

Conventional wisdom states that the energy produced by the classic Water Dropper experiment comes from
 the gravitational potential of the falling droplets. But this seems to ignore the energy it took to create the ions
in the water in the first place. Water ionisation by self-dissociation is actually a manifestation of Zero Point Energy.

Perhaps we can utilize this self-dissociation on a continuous basis without the need for falling water drops?

The setup I have in mind is shown in schematic in Photo 1.

Explanation:
There is a long insulating container of water (TANK).
There are two metal plates (OUTER PLATES) outside the TANK acting as
capacitor plates with the water container in between.
There are two large conductive containers (DRUMS), with the open ends facing each other with a gap
in between and nearly enclosing the TANK. These DRUMS store the build-up of electrostatic charges on their outer surfaces.

Each OUTER PLATE is connected to the opposite DRUM and therefore has the same  polarity and shares some of the
charge of that DRUM.

Just inside the water TANK on each side, there is a corrosion-resistant conductive plate (INNER PLATE)
which is connected to the inside of the nearest DRUM.

[Not sure of which of the following is correct?:]
? These INNER PLATES, being located within and connected to, the nearest DRUM, have no net charge,
since the inside surface of any hollow conductor is neutral, by the Faraday Pail effect. ?
OR:
? These INNER PLATES may have some opposite charge drawn down into them from the nearest DRUM. to balance the charges on the OUTER PLATE. ?

(The OUTER PLATES, by comparison, do acquire some of the charge of the opposite DRUM as they are outside the enclosure of the opposite DRUM,
even though they are located inside the nearest DRUM.)

Not sure of this:
Although the INNER PLATES may have a non-zero net charge, the two sides of each INNER PLATE do
have opposite charges induced by the proximity of the charged OUTER PLATE.

The side of the each INNER PLATE facing outwards towards the OUTER PLATE (and carrying the opposite charge)
is protected from contact with the water, perhaps by gluing the plate to the inside wall of the TANK and sealing around the edges.
 
The side of the INNER PLATES facing into the TANK (and having the same charge as the nearest OUTER PLATE)
are bare conductive metal and are in contact with the water.

 Any charge  on the DRUMS is shared to the opposite OUTER PLATES,
which in turn, cause the same polarity to appear on the exposed surfaces of the INNER PLATES by Induction.
 
As the water molecules self-dissociate, the resulting ions are drawn to their oppositely charged INNER PLATE surface and are neutralized (?).
The resulting charge imbalance on the INNER PLATES is passed via the black wire to the inside of the nearest DRUM,
and so the charges accumulate, or at least that's the theory! :-)

I hope to finish the apparatus in the next few days to see what if anything, it does.
This is still a work-in-progress as I am still having trouble with leaking water containers
and sourcing expensive materials such as lead flashing for the electrodes.

« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 09:44:31 AM by LeoFreeman »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline lancaIV

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Re: Kelvin's Water Dropper Thunderstorm - without drops?
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2017, 10:33:41 AM »
                                                                         FARAD-ays cage
                                                                Einstein-Bose Condensat
                                                                 Condensator/Capacitor
                                                     Lord Kelvin mech. spring/condensator analogon

                   
                                    probably Alvin Marks invention gives more intuitive progression

                                   http://www.rexresearch.com/marks/marks.htm
                                   https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=&IN=alvin+marks&CPC=&IC=&Submit=Search


Offline antijon

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Re: Kelvin's Water Dropper Thunderstorm - without drops?
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2017, 05:07:10 PM »
Interesting idea, but I thought the self disassociation of water was always in a state of equilibrium? Well I'm no expert in chemistry. This might be like the water dropper where it only takes a small random charge to start the process. I'd like to see the results. But remember that the exterior capacitor plates need to be connected to the exterior of the drum, otherwise they won't be charged.

Offline LeoFreeman

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Re: Kelvin's Water Dropper Thunderstorm - without drops?
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2017, 10:08:57 PM »
                                                                         FARAD-ays cage
                                                                Einstein-Bose Condensat
                                                                 Condensator/Capacitor
                                                     Lord Kelvin mech. spring/condensator analogon

                   
                                    probably Alvin Marks invention gives more intuitive progression

                                   http://www.rexresearch.com/marks/marks.htm
                                   https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=&IN=alvin+marks&CPC=&IC=&Submit=Search

Thanks for these links; Alvin Marks was certainly a busy beaver!


Offline LeoFreeman

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Re: Kelvin's Water Dropper Thunderstorm - without drops?
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2017, 11:45:50 PM »
Interesting idea, but I thought the self disassociation of water was always in a state of equilibrium? Well I'm no expert in chemistry.
This might be like the water dropper where it only takes a small random charge to start the process.
I'd like to see the results. But remember that the exterior capacitor plates need to be connected to the exterior of the drum, otherwise they won't be charged.

I'm also not sure about the equilibrium of the water; my understanding is that
H3O+  and OH- pairs are constantly being created and re-united,
at any given point in time you can look at water and see a certain concentration of each ion,
which gives the water a pH of about 7.

I think that the outer plates would acquire the charge of the drums if they are far enough outside
the enclosure of the drum, no matter where the connection points are.
For this reason, two oppositely-charged "Faraday Ice Pails" will short each other out,
even if the connecting wire only touches the (neutral) interior of each pail.

That got me thinking:  Maybe we shouldn't have both inner plates connected to the drums at the same time,
as the two drums would effectively be shorting out via the two black wires, with the water acting as a bridge ?

Therefore, the excess charge collected by the inner plates may need to be discharged to their respective drums sequentially,
to avoid the direct short between the drums through the water tank.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Kelvin's Water Dropper Thunderstorm - without drops?
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2017, 11:45:50 PM »
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Offline antijon

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Re: Kelvin's Water Dropper Thunderstorm - without drops?
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2017, 10:34:52 PM »
I see you're right about the distance from the pails, which is why for a device like a van de graaff to work properly, the sphere must enclose the entire upper brush/roller assembly.

As for shorting, I don't know man. I'm still trying to figure out how the water ions are going to charge the plates without some type of electrolysis happening.

Offline LeoFreeman

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Re: Kelvin's Water Dropper Thunderstorm - without drops?
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2017, 11:10:57 PM »
Electrolysis would be good  8) if we don't have to supply any power!
More messy than getting pure electricity, but useful nevertheless.

I was thinking about using an acid-base indicator to visually observe any changes in the ionic makeup of the water,\
would you believe, it's very practical: https://www.exploratorium.edu/snacks/indicating-electrolysis?media=7376


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Kelvin's Water Dropper Thunderstorm - without drops?
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2017, 11:10:57 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Kelvin's Water Dropper Thunderstorm - without drops?
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2017, 11:53:02 PM »
Water serves as the charge carrier in Kelvin's generator, but you probably aren't going to see any significant degree of ionization with ordinary acid-base indicators. Consider that one mole of water, 18 grams, contains 6.022 x 1023 water molecules, and one Coulomb of charge is equivalent to the charge on 6.24 x 1018 electrons. A Coulomb of charge is a huge amount of charge. Each water drop in a properly working Kelvin generator only carries a tiny fraction of a Coulomb, meaning that a very small number of ions will exist in the water. The extreme strength of the electrostatic force due to the E-field of this small number of ions allows influence machines like the Kelvin generator to operate, but there are better ways to generate, or rather separate, large quantities of charge using other types of influence machines. In fact, you could probably make a more efficient generator using the Kelvin layout but instead of water, use dust particles or even tiny plastic spheres. Tesla, IIRC, designed an influence machine that used dust particles as the charge carriers. It was similar to a VDG machine but instead of a belt, blowers circulated dust through a closed loop of piping.

Offline LeoFreeman

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Re: Kelvin's Water Dropper Thunderstorm - without drops?
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2017, 01:16:26 AM »
 Water is nowhere near as efficient a charge carrier as bigger particles, such as dust, as you mentioned; but 
it is cheap (well, it used to be cheap  >:() and the influence machines can potentially be scaled up enormously.

This brings me to a question that has been bugging me for a while now:  If it is true (?)  that water gets (- at least some of -) its
energy for self-dissociation from the Quantum Vacuum Fluctuations, 
then what happens to that energy when it is re-emitted and the H3O+ / OH- ions go back to ground state again? 
Why doesn't water spontaneously boil away due to all  that build-up of energy?

I remember Tom Bearden mentioning something similar to that in one of his videos on Zero Point Energy; I can't find it again, but he said
something like it is a mystery as to why certain acid-base neutralization reactions don't give off heat energy, or something like that.

Offline DavidWolff

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Re: Kelvin's Water Dropper Thunderstorm - without drops?
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2017, 05:31:13 AM »
I can confirm this experiment generates free static electricity, from water droplets into a lover bucket, it can also give you a nasty shock, but like all things you need to get the water to the top, but before you say I know a way of doing that for free each side has to be insulated from each other ;), think you can do it ? for so little gain ?

D Wolff

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Kelvin's Water Dropper Thunderstorm - without drops?
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2017, 05:31:13 AM »
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Offline LeoFreeman

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Re: Kelvin's Water Dropper Thunderstorm - without drops?
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2017, 03:17:26 AM »
I can confirm this experiment generates free static electricity, from water droplets into a lover bucket,
it can also give you a nasty shock, but like all things you need to get the water to the top,
but before you say I know a way of doing that for free each side has to be insulated from each other ;), think you can do it ? for so little gain ?

Am I correct in saying that Static charges are not generated by the water dropper???
- Any charges collected by the two lower buckets are from the H3O+/ OH- ions
in the water that were already formed by self-dissociation?
Neutral water molecules falling into the bucket do not contribute any charge.

The electric field of the inductor may cause each end of the water column to take on a certain charge, but that is only because
all the neutral H2O molecule's dipoles are aligned with the field.
But once the droplets break away from the water column, the dipoles  lose their alignment.
Then it is only the small percentage of H3O+/ OH- ions in the droplet which contributes to
the charge buildup.

Anyway, my initial experimental setup has failed to produce any detectable charge. Here are some pictures of the  apparatus:


 


Offline LeoFreeman

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Kelvin's Water Dropper Thunderstorm - without water?
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2017, 03:34:11 PM »
Hello, thinking again about the role of the ions in water, it make me wonder whether we need to use water at all - could we instead use metal wire as the charge source and ordinary capacitors, in order to build up the charge on the drums?

Here is a sequence of steps which would be implemented in real life using a system of switching, either using common hardware switches, or semiconductors:


Offline lancaIV

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Re: Kelvin's Water Dropper Thunderstorm - without drops?
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2017, 04:52:45 AM »
what is the personal target to reach ?
an high compact energy transducer ?
a cheap energy collector with transformer ?

experiment and stages:
a. earth cell
b. water cell
c. ionic/ionosphere fence
d. ionospheric solar cells/plates (Brazil invention)
e. capacitor circuit( displacement current)
f. battery cells set with capacitor circuit

a. http://web.archive.org/web/20070516193454/http://www.theverylastpageoftheinternet.com:80/
Don Addsit(R.I.P.)
 1)  No Hydrogen Needed_FREE_ENERGY_FROM_THE_EARTH

b. google-search
    also: metallic microorganism aquarium
             https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=2&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19931111&CC=DE&NR=4222678A1&KC=A1
 
     electrolyt-bio-generator
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=9&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19931223&CC=DE&NR=9312668U1&KC=U1

c. Alvin Marks cited/citing documents

d. www.youtube.com
    also:  DIY:     L(ight)E(mitting)D(iode: how works a diode) as 2energy-converter
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JitHHdHQ43M right side videos

e./f. Dr.Pavel Imris
        https://www.bing.com/search?q=pavel+imris+patent&PC=U316&FORM=CHROMN

        Thomas Townsend Brown (temporarely mentor: Nicola Tesla)
        https://www.bing.com/search?q=thomas+townsend+brown&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&pq=undefined&sc=0-14&sk=&cvid=4278E594065A417DBB0502028AC124E2

       Nicola Tesla
      http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/tesla/lostjournals/lostjournals06.htm
      Man can harness these processes to:

Precipitate matter from the ether.
Create whatever he wants with the matter and energy derived.
Alter the earth's size.
Control earth's seasons (weather control).
Guide earth's path through the Universe, like a spaceship.
Cause the collisions of planets to produce new suns and stars, heat, and light.
Originate and develop life in infinite forms.

Sincerely
              OCWL


p.s.: somewhen,somewhere in future:

         The Casimir Effect is a proven example of free energy that cannot be debunked. The Casimir Effect illustrates zero point or vacuum state energy, which predicts that two metal plates close together attract each other due to an imbalance in the quantum fluctuations(0).
 You can see a visual demonstration of this concept here.
 The implications of this are far reaching and have been written about extensively within theoretical physics by researchers all over the world.
Today, we are beginning to see that these concepts are not just theoretical, but instead very practical and simply very suppressed.
Vacuums generally are thought to be voids, but Hendrik Casimir believed these pockets of nothing do indeed contain fluctuations of electromagnetic waves.
He suggested that two metal plates held apart in a vacuum could trap the waves, creating vacuum energy that could attract or repel the plates. As the boundaries of a region move, the variation in vacuum energy (zero-point energy) leads to the Casimir effect.
Recent research done at Harvard University, and Vrije University in Amsterdam and elsewhere has proved the Casimir effect correct (7).

Offline LeoFreeman

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Re: Kelvin's Water Dropper Thunderstorm - without drops?
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2017, 06:47:10 AM »
what is the personal target to reach ?
an high compact energy transducer ?
a cheap energy collector with transformer ?

experiment and stages:
a. earth cell
b. water cell
c. ionic/ionosphere fence
d. ionospheric solar cells/plates (Brazil invention)
e. capacitor circuit( displacement current)
f. battery cells set with capacitor circuit


Thank you for these links. I wonder whether we can develop exotic technologies eg. antigravity, by understanding the nature of spacetime,
because generally humans don't have a good fundamental understanding of the mechanics of the Universe.
Many inventions in history have been the result of a lucky observation of a naturally occurring process, not deduced from first principles.
 We are like the first caveman who found a burning stick, from that, fire was mastered, then metallurgy, then internal combustion, etc, one day
we may even master the Barbecue.
In the free energy field, there are many burning sticks lying around, but they are being quickly snuffed out by those who want to keep us in the dark.


Offline profitis

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Re: Kelvin's Water Dropper Thunderstorm - without drops?
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2017, 11:52:03 AM »
" being quickly snuffed
out by those who want to keep us in the dark."

True

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Kelvin's Water Dropper Thunderstorm - without drops?
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2017, 11:52:03 AM »

 

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