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Author Topic: $25,000 National Geographic Contest - Compressed Air (Ambient Heat) Energy  (Read 3279 times)

Offline madddann

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Hello antijon!

Good logical thinking, thank you.
The vapor (steam) turbines can be as high as 50% efficient (in big applications) so the patent could be feasible.

Now the only thing that is bothering me is part 6 - the transporting means... how can be the fluid moved forward without exerting back pressure and using minimal energy to do it?

...also look at below statement from the patent...


This post was edited because of mistakes.

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Offline Tom Booth

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This dawned on me last night while I was loading a truck, moving furniture.

The drinking bird is essentially a kind of, or similar in operation to an ammonia based refrigerator. Well in actuality, it occurs to me now. It actually LOOKS almost EXACTLY like the old "Icy bulb" ammonia refrigerator. Wow! It's internal structure and mode of operation is also the same. Or almost. The working fluid is different presumably. But, to work or operate, the Icy Bulb needs to be manually turned on its end from time to time. Did the Icy Bulb inspire the Drinking Duck. Or perhaps its just a matter of form follows function.

Anyway my revelation last night while driving the truck moving furniture and such was. In the ammonia system (and "Dipping Duck" and Icy Bulb) the phase where the working fluid is being heated or boiled is equivalent to the compression phase in a vapor compression cycle.

So in the bird its working fluid is being "compresssed" and cooled simultaneously. The boiling fluid increases the internal pressure but the evaporative cooling holds the temperature down.

So there is that corelation between the bird and Trppler and Bob Neal and others who demonstrated some apparent overunity with some form of cyclic heat engine or compressor.

In otherwords It dawned on me that the key to the overunity of the drinking bird is not the evaporative "cooling" but rather, the same as all the others.


Offline Tom Booth

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http://crosleyautoclub.com/IcyBall/HomeBuilt/HomeBuilt.html

Sorry, that old refrigeration system that looks like a dippy bird is called IcyBall not icy bulb.

Anyway I think the resemblance is more than superficial.

Offline antijon

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Hey Dan, I think the transporting means is a simple pump. The image shows that the liquid refrigerant is pumped into the heat exchanger where it boils into a hot vapor. This means that the pump must withstand the increased pressure of the vapor down the line. After the vapor works on the turbine, it will lose pressure, and as it condenses in the other heat exchanger ( no. 1 in image) it will further lose pressure.

The pump must be high pressure, but the flow rate doesn't need to be high. A little liquid turns into a lot of steam.

A curious part of the patent is the heat input of 7 and 8 in the diagram. I'm guessing that as steam powers a turbine it loses some kinetic energy, or converts it directly to mechanical energy. The steam is then cooled and condensed at no. 1. 7 and 8 must be the input for excess heat which raises the temperature of the liquid. This should allow the liquid to boil at a higher temperature down the line. In ACs, subcooling is a good thing, as it allows the boiling fluid to take on more heat. But I guess for a heat engine you want the subcooling to be as low as possible.


Offline madddann

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Hi antijon.

Thanks for explaining, I was wondering why the increased pressure would not just stall or even reverse the flow through the pump...

As I understand, 7 and 8 is the pipe feeding the heat from the environment or external heat input.

I was wondering another thing... a steam turbine can be from 20% (for small aplications) to 50% (for huge applications) efficient at converting heat to mechanical energy, and using water, the water to vapor ratio is 1:1700.
Now what would be the efficiency of a steam turbine when used with refrigerant R134a? What is the liquid to gas ratio of this refrigerant? If i'm looking at the right numbers, the liquid to gas ratio is several times that of water to vapor  :o .

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Offline antijon

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Dan, I'd like to know what numbers you're looking at. I think R134 does have a higher COP than water, but I'm not so sure the volume ratio is higher. If you compare the enthalpy of the vapor, or latent heat of evaporation, like in this link http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fluids-evaporation-latent-heat-d_147.html you'll see that water tops the chart. R134 isn't in the list but it'd be right below R22. This means water takes much more heat to break bonds and vaporize. If you compare the density of R134 and water vapor, R134 vapor is about 9 times more dense at atmospheric pressure. Putting together what we know about the heat content and density, water should have a much larger volume than R134.

Well I'm not too sure, just going by what I know. Here's a story for your amusement. Just last week I had to condemn an AC unit because some jackass got water in the freon lines. Water and refrigerant oil, POE, form acids. This is bad, of course. After pulling out the R410, I vacuumed the system for about 12 hours. It wasn't enough, the water was still there. See, in refrigeration, water is like nightmare that never ends. It literally takes days of vacuuming to try to boil it all out, and when you think you're close, there's still more. So yeah, water takes a tremendous volume as a vapor.

For the patent, water is probably not the best anyway. It takes too high of a temp to boil for a heat pump system on the first circuit. I've seen water cooled units that never come close to boiling water. The good thing about a refrigerant is the low boiling point. You can always raise the pressure if you want it to boil at a higher temp. To lower the boiling point of water you have to run it in a vacuum, and this is impossible except on an industrial scale.

Offline lancaIV

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               "Osma tech" coating (hot and/or cool)
http://overunity.com/2606/electricity-saver/wap2/
http://www.overunity.de/2013/radikal-zukunft-design/150/


  Mahmoud Kaffouzi,Damascus heat pump/chiller optimizer
  or MECH(M.PRUEITT) or eats.co.uk.ltd
http://overunity.com/5588/the-heatpump-with-more-energy-out-than-in-fact/
                           Reply #8



               Li Yng Tyan motor-transmission
     http://overunity.com/1814/ambient-cycle/
     https://google.com/patents/US5463914


           C.O.P.: ?

Have a nice day or night by dreammare diving

bmbr
        OCWL

p.s.: about heat systems  http://www.overunity.de/184/waermepumpe-versus-elektroheizer/195/

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Offline Tom Booth

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Hey Dan, I think the transporting means is a simple pump. The image shows that the liquid refrigerant is pumped into the heat exchanger where it boils into a hot vapor. This means that the pump must withstand the increased pressure of the vapor down the line. After the vapor works on the turbine, it will lose pressure, and as it condenses in the other heat exchanger ( no. 1 in image) it will further lose pressure.

The pump must be high pressure, but the flow rate doesn't need to be high. A little liquid turns into a lot of steam.

A curious part of the patent is the heat input of 7 and 8 in the diagram. I'm guessing that as steam powers a turbine it loses some kinetic energy, or converts it directly to mechanical energy. The steam is then cooled and condensed at no. 1. 7 and 8 must be the input for excess heat which raises the temperature of the liquid. This should allow the liquid to boil at a higher temperature down the line. In ACs, subcooling is a good thing, as it allows the boiling fluid to take on more heat. But I guess for a heat engine you want the subcooling to be as low as possible.

Hope no one gets offended but somehow this system strikes me as a bit akin to expecting your kitchen fridge to not only run by itself but also send power back to the grid by simply leaving the doors open for the ambient heat to flow in and power it, and if that doesn't work well two refrigerators with the doors open working together should do it.

Offline antijon

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Tom I'm not offended, it's not my invention. It's not like a refrigerator at all though. It's like using a heat pump, which already has a COP greater than 1, to power a heat engine, and then looping it to make it stand-alone.

Offline Tom Booth

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Re: $25,000 National Geographic Contest - Compressed Air (Ambient Heat) Energy
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2017, 04:54:53 PM »
Tom I'm not offended, it's not my invention. It's not like a refrigerator at all though. It's like using a heat pump, which already has a COP greater than 1, to power a heat engine, and then looping it to make it stand-alone.

Perhaps I'm mistaken but isn't a refrigerator exactly the same as a heat-pump? Speaking in terms of the mechanical apparatus, just used in a different application. A refrigerator absorbs heat out of the ice box through the evaporator tubes and delivers heat into the kitchen through the condenser. A heat pump absorbs heat from outside through its evaporator tubes and moves that heat into the house. A refrigerator and a heat pump are simply two different names for the same device.

The "Heat Engine" is also, IMO simply a kind of disguised heat pump or refrigeration system. The compressor has been called "transporting means" and instead of an expansion valve, an "actuator vapor turbine" has been used. In some refrigeration systems an expansion turbine is used instead of an expansion valve, but serves essentially the same purpose; to restrict the fluid flow which allows a build-up of pressure behind it. The pressure build up results in an increase in temperature at which point heat can be dissipated.

by substituting a turbine in place of an expansion valve a refrigerator is not likely to run itself on the power output of the turbine and so would be less likely to power an additional refrigerator as well.

« Last Edit: Today at 12:56:00 AM by Tom Booth »

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Re: $25,000 National Geographic Contest - Compressed Air (Ambient Heat) Energy
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2017, 04:54:53 PM »
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Offline lancaIV

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Re: $25,000 National Geographic Contest - Compressed Air (Ambient Heat) Energy
« Reply #40 on: September 18, 2017, 05:18:13 PM »
performance optimizer ?
http://www.aenertec.com/talon_rms.htm

wmbr
        OCWL

 

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