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Author Topic: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%  (Read 3722 times)

Offline Magluvin

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Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2017, 06:23:23 PM »
Hi Mags,

Your DC motor example is not good here because efficiency changes nonlinearly when you reduce input power to a DC motor and the answer to this question I think is no, we would not increase efficiency in the example you came up with.

However, your drone example with 4 motors and 4 props versus 8 motors and 8 props sounds a good example I think, probably because the resultant ascensional power may increase with increasing surface area of the props. (I am not an expert in this field so the explanation why less energy would be needed may be different.)

Gyula

Hey Gyula

I see speaker motors to possibly be some of the more eff of most, in the realm of coreless motors. At this point I may agree that the eff gain may be through the energy conversion from electromagnetic to mechanical and finally into sound or pressure waves through air.

I have had thoughts many times that the key to OU may be through a series of conversions rather than just from one to another, of which may include one to another then back again.

I just went through some of the subs available from PSi. My buds 15" subs are around $600 shipped and are 88.5db @1w. But their flagship 15 is closer to $900 but are over 95db@1w.  He has 6 15s in the bed of his tundra with a blow through port from the bed to the cab. 3 big 5kw amps, 2 subs per amp tot 1ohm load ea.

Lots of money and lots of build time and effort.  But, if he had just spent that extra for the subs, instead of what output he is getting now at 15kw, the better subs would do the same for under 5kw. Or, the other way around, he would need near 60kw to do the same as the flagships on 15kw. :o

I had been arguing with him on the subject for some time now. So that is why I am in deeper thought on this subject.

Lol. On Banggood.com they have a little 1.5in speaker that is 3w. $2.99ea.  So Im thinking that these may be the cheapest way to go as to seeing how far I can take it to see if the eff increases using the same tot input power as the number of speakers increase.  Would be a sight to see with hundreds of these as a subwoofer in a car. ;D

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline lancaIV

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Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2017, 08:27:52 PM »
In search of t(h)ermal noise conversion,magluvin ?

Joseph C. Yater
https://www.google.com/patents/US5470395
 
A reversible thermoelectric converter includes first and second quantum well diodes and an electrical connection between the first and second quantum well diodes without a thermal barrier between them. Each quantum well diode includes first and second electrodes wherein electrons are quantized in discrete energy levels and a dielectric layer providing a potential barrier between the first and second electrodes. When electrons in the first quantum well diode have a higher temperature than the electrons in the second quantum well diode, electric voltage fluctuations resulting from transitions of the electrons between the energy levels in the first quantum well diode are coupled from the first quantum well diode to the second quantum well diode. The reversible thermoelectric converter can be operated for power conversion of thermal energy to electric energy, as a heat pump or a refrigerator, or as an amplifier. A planar array of reversible thermoelectric converter elements provides a desired output voltage and current.
       
David Reginald Carver
http://www.google.com.na/patents/EP2165074A4?cl=fi
http://carversci.com/

Offline gyulasun

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Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2017, 09:50:18 PM »
Hey Gyula

I see speaker motors to possibly be some of the more eff of most, in the realm of coreless motors. At this point I may agree that the eff gain may be through the energy conversion from electromagnetic to mechanical and finally into sound or pressure waves through air.

I have had thoughts many times that the key to OU may be through a series of conversions rather than just from one to another, of which may include one to another then back again.

Well,  this might be the case, the problem I think here is that multiple conversions inherently may include additional losses. But I do not mean with this that ou is automatically closed out in such processes. 

Quote
...
Lol. On Banggood.com they have a little 1.5in speaker that is 3w. $2.99ea.  So Im thinking that these may be the cheapest way to go as to seeing how far I can take it to see if the eff increases using the same tot input power as the number of speakers increase.  Would be a sight to see with hundreds of these as a subwoofer in a car. ;D

I have made a drawing how Ian described the use of several coils in a pulse motor, see the attachment below.  Making the series and parallel connections for the given number of coils as shown insures the same L inductance hence impedance for the shown combinations (and so on).  Thus the input power to any of such arrays, be they coils or loudspeakers etc, will alwys be the same like the single L coil (or speaker) shown in the upper left corner would consume.

Gyula

Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2017, 06:59:40 AM »
Hi all, magluvin, i think bose use this idea in their speakers.
They use many small speakers and probably wire them in an efficient series/parallel configuration, to match a lower than typical for the output sound, power amp.
Also, what about passive radiators, they are used to boost a speaker box output and yet they have no voice coil or magnet, just a free moving cone.
peace love light

Offline Magluvin

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Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2017, 08:27:47 AM »
Hi all, magluvin, i think bose use this idea in their speakers.
They use many small speakers and probably wire them in an efficient series/parallel configuration, to match a lower than typical for the output sound, power amp.
Also, what about passive radiators, they are used to boost a speaker box output and yet they have no voice coil or magnet, just a free moving cone.
peace love light

Hey Sky

Worked in electronics repair for some time. Seen a lot. Bose 901 speakers had 9 speakers, each 1ohm and wired in series to get around 8ohms which was still popular in the days.

Passive radiators can be used instead of porting/venting the speaker box.  Porting is a way of tuning resonance of the speaker box to get a gain in the low bass range. If a box were tuned to 30hz it could produce up to 8db gain in that area of freq compared to a sealed box. I prefer porting over passive radiators. Passive radiators, a lot of them are only suspended by a single rubber surround where a speaker has the rubber and a cloth spider below the cone to help keep it on axis. So at low freq the simple passive radiator can go into a wobble of which you can hear it. Some newer passive radiators have a frame and a spider to solve the problem of wobble, like a speaker with the magnets not installed. But they are still limited in how much air they can move compared to a port, and ports never go bad, like the rubber surround deteriorating like a speaker can.

Below is the comparison between my friends truck with 6 huge 15s and what my other friend and I are going to build to compete with him using 6 Pioneer 12s
He used 3 cuft ea and we are using the same, but we are tuning to 25hz and he is tuning to 30hz. The pioneer is in green and the 15s are in pink and I also threw a sealed version without ports in the same 18cuft tot in yellow to show the amount of enhancement the port gives.

The lower traces are the subs at 1w total and the upper traces are his at 15kw and the pioneers at 5.2kw. 

Im just showing this to express the importance of the sensitivity spec for woofers and speakers.  His 15s are $600ea and the pioneer 12s are less than $100ea. He is running 3 5kw amps at $1600 ea and we are running the 3 pioneer GM class D amps 1760w ea and can be had for around $150ea.

So its a no brainer for me and looking at the trace we are equal at full power around 40-50hz but look where we will be at 25hz and 20hz.

I built 1 box 3cu tuned to 25hz with a 4in pvc tube 15in long to test. It is awesome. Can play down to 18hz before the port output goes completely out of phase compared to the tuned freq.

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2017, 08:27:47 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2017, 08:35:46 AM »
Like I said earlier, the 15s are 88.5db @1w and the pioneer 12s are 96 db @1w.  Big eff difference and that is why we can do the same and better with the 12s as he is doing with the 15s at about 1 10th the cost.

Increase 3db with every doubling of input power.  1w  2w  4w  8w  16w etc.

So yeah, his looks like a monster system, but the eff is so low, we are competing smarter. ;)

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2017, 08:39:11 AM »
I ran his 15s again on WinIsd beta (free prog) to adjust the box to see if it could match the 12s trace.  I had to increase the tot box to 55cuft compared to the 18cu he is running now. Cant fit that in a suburban let alone a tundra bed.

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2017, 08:39:11 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2017, 08:56:02 AM »
Hey Gyula

I understand the series parallel end of it all to get the same impedance.   In the audio end, we have to work out the power of the ganged subs to press them to the max. Amps these days are 1ohm and some 1/2ohm stable.  And a lot of subs are dual 4ohm, 2ohm and 1ohm coils.  So in my case the 12s are dual 4ohm. So of 6 subs, 2 each will be all 4 coils in parallel to get 1ohm. The Pioneer Gm amp can put out about 1760w @1ohm.

Here is a guy on YT with an amp dyno testing the pioneer amp. Its the real deal. About 10cents per watt.  Would be nice to have solar panels at that price. ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujYIgE96gk8&t=306s

But how or say why is there a gain?  Thats what im going for at the moment.

Mags

Offline lancaIV

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Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2017, 11:47:40 AM »
Audio-technology:
http://luckyx02.de/data/documents/rieder-aufsatz.pdf

10 cents/Wp ,in kind of photovoltaic converter,are for the next 15 years not wellcomed for private households use by several interest groups worldwide
     
Untill 2030, then open source technology and other free knowledge sources applied in AI autonom production plants
will brings to the world the cheap electric energy.

2017 for huge energy conversion plants like wind parcs and solar farms the calculated 3 US$cents/KWH-price level is reached !   

Estimating 1000 US$/KVA installed investment =
                             
                               100 US$cents/Wp

---------------------------------------------------------------
My question about costs cent/Wp fluctuation/thermal voltage amplifier is by comparison:

I got produced a 5/five KVA transformer for 150 Euros,tax included. (2008,prototype)

                      3  Euro-cents/Wp

powerguru.org :
http://www.powerguru.org/planar-transformers-are-essential-for-truly-efficient-electrichybrid-vehicles/

        about industrial production costs of planar
                        "inverter" transformer :
                        25 US$ for 5 KVA

                        0,5 US$cent/Wp

                        (market-price ? 2 US$cents/Wp ?)

https://contest.techbriefs.com/2016/entries/sustainable-technologies/6390

                       production costs/marketing price ?



Dr. Pavel Imris generative transformer numbers for
comparison :
first  KVA 11 Kg
next KVA  3,5 Kg
ergo 5 KVA generator weight 25 Kg
given production costs estimation by him :
32 Euros/net per Kg

2000 Euros/5 KVA incl.margin and tax are to high !
                    40 Euro-cents/Wp  :'(

Offline Magluvin

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Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2017, 04:32:36 PM »
Hey lanca

Well a transformer is definitely cheaper to make than a class D amplifier.  I was just making a comparison. The amp Im talking about is more retail than what we can get it for on ebay or amazon, like around $150 to $160. I was just expressing the value.  Like fo instance Rockford Fosgate has a 19in subwoofer that can handle 5kw but the sensitivity is 90db @1w. It cost $2900.  But the pioneer 12 is 96db in the specs, but when I run the other parameters into the program Winisd pro, it shows the sensitivity to be really 97db. Less than 100 bucks. cannot go wrong. Even Rockfords lower end subs ar in the range of 87db @1w.

Pioneer is one of the largest audio companies in the world. They make great stuff for a good price. A lot of the guys that run other amps and subs use the pioneer radios as they are the best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujYIgE96gk8&t=306s

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2017, 04:32:36 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2017, 01:33:52 AM »
...

But how or say why is there a gain?  Thats what im going for at the moment.

Mags

Hi Mags

In case of Ian's pulse motor setup with the more stator coils vs 1, the gain in torque must come from the less heat loss
in the coils because input current branches to the series coil strings versus the single coil case in which the same
input current suffers the max heat loss. Yet, input power being the same for both cases, the difference between
the max heat loss and the reduced heat loss makes the gain manifest in increased shaft torque due to the increased
flux available.
Of course some other explanation could also be valid, I do not know, Ian mentioned the more flux is introduced into
such setup from the extra permanent magnets to the extra coils, the better the pulse motor becomes torque_wise.

You have heard of gain in antennas like Yagi or parabolic dish having say 15 dB or say 28 dB gain referenced to a isotropic
antenna or to a dipol, etc. I can only explain their gain measured in the preferred direction if their mechanical construction
prevents radiation in any other direction and directs the waves mainly towards the preferred direction. Do they have a COP>1?
I do not think, they just create a much higher field strength in the preferred direction than say a dipole does from the
same input power (and provided input impedances are correctly matched).

No offense but we can theorize every day on such questions, tests give correct answers only.

Gyula

Offline Magluvin

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Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2017, 05:52:50 AM »
Hi Mags

In case of Ian's pulse motor setup with the more stator coils vs 1, the gain in torque must come from the less heat loss
in the coils because input current branches to the series coil strings versus the single coil case in which the same
input current suffers the max heat loss. Yet, input power being the same for both cases, the difference between
the max heat loss and the reduced heat loss makes the gain manifest in increased shaft torque due to the increased
flux available.
Of course some other explanation could also be valid, I do not know, Ian mentioned the more flux is introduced into
such setup from the extra permanent magnets to the extra coils, the better the pulse motor becomes torque_wise.

You have heard of gain in antennas like Yagi or parabolic dish having say 15 dB or say 28 dB gain referenced to a isotropic
antenna or to a dipol, etc. I can only explain their gain measured in the preferred direction if their mechanical construction
prevents radiation in any other direction and directs the waves mainly towards the preferred direction. Do they have a COP>1?
I do not think, they just create a much higher field strength in the preferred direction than say a dipole does from the
same input power (and provided input impedances are correctly matched).

No offense but we can theorize every day on such questions, tests give correct answers only.

Gyula

Im not one to take the resistance losses seriously enough in most cases to say that is the reason here.

My reasoning is this....

Say the speaker plays say 90db @1w,  and each time we double the power we gain 3db, period. If we get up to 1kw we end up at 120db. Now at 1w there most likely not be a noticeable resistance change from 0w. But when we get to 1kw, there will be very noticeable heat and noticeable resistance increase, yet the db increase for yet another power doubling will be 3db.

So Im thinking it is more of an increase in surface area vs the wattage. Even in a pulse motor, if we increase the number of coils, there is push/pull power to more positions of the rotor. Like you said, we are just talking here.  So these are just theoretical possibilities, of which if we are going to do tests, well these theories give us things TO look for. Like if we were going to do tests and we see gains as we go, we still wouldnt be sure what is the cause or reason for it. So then we would have to think a bit to see what and how is the cause of the gain. So then we would and should look into these theoretical areas to help find the culprit.

So just because Im thinking of these things now doesnt mean that if we didnt think on it early, that we wouldnt need to do it later.  Like if we started with 1 coil on the motor, measured, then add another coil, measure, etc, we could look at it all day and possibly never see the reason for the gain. So I look at what major changes happened when we add more, like with the speakers, the moving surface area has doubled, of which has a direct affect on how much air is moved. but then when we look at the speaker motor end, I dont see the cutting of the 1w in half for each speaker, going from 1 sub to 2, as big of a gain maker as I would the increase in surface area which would be the biggest change..  Possibly one way to test this would be to use 2 different size speakers. First test would be to measure the small one, then add the larger one. Then we do the opposite, large one first then add the smaller one.  Would need to mach some parameters like coil resistance, spl@1w, etc so that the only major difference is the surface area between the 2.  Now if we get different results between the 2 tests, then surface area may be it.  Dunno

Im beat. So I am quitting for the evening and will get back at this tomorrow. ;D

mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2017, 05:58:56 AM »
Now if we get different results between the 2 tests, then surface area may be it.  Dunno


mags

Now if the results are the same, then we would need to look elsewhere. ;)

Mags

 

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