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Author Topic: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%  (Read 3723 times)

Offline Magluvin

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On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« on: July 19, 2017, 06:46:37 AM »
Ive put the idea out there before but lately Ive gotten back into the car audio scene and its got me thinking more..

Speakers have a spec called sensitivity measured in db at 1meter @1w. Some have low sensitivity, low 80s db @1w and some have higher around 105db @1w.
In the car audio circuit DB drag races are becoming more popular than music itself. There are subwoofers that will take 2kw, 5kw and even 10kw. Some guys are running 30 and 40kw just to burp out upwards of 180db.   A lot of these top bassers are running subs that are around 88db @1w.  A friend and I are looking to build a bass system with 6 Pioneer 12s TS-w3003d4  Sensitivity of 96db. And when you run the other specs on WinIsd Pro it shows 97db. Were looking to show another friend a lesson. He is running 6 huge 15s with 3 huge amps at tot 15kw. The pioneers will be getting 5200w tot.  Add up the numbers, along with him port tuned to 30hz and us tuned to 25hz, we will exceed him at 30hz by 3db and woop him at 25hz by 9db and 20z by 5 db.. His subs cost about $600 ea shipped and near $5000 for 3 amps.
Our 12s are less than $100ea and the amps, pioneer GM-D9601 are about $160. 

All this 30kw and huge subwoofers are a big scam.  They can make subs more eff but then they wont be able to sell big power.  Its loony tunes.


 If we only double the power we increase 3 db.
Every time we double the number of subs and double the power we increase 6db.
But! If we double the number of subs and keep the total power the same, we increase 3db. So with the same power in by adding another driver we increase efficiency.


Say we have 1 15in car subwoofer with an amp and a signal in, sine wave and we get 90db 1 meter away at 1w.
Add another 15 and apply .5w to each, total 1w, we now get 93db @1w. ;)

Add 2 more subs and apply .25w to each of the 4 subs and we now get 96db @1w.

Do you see what Im driving at? The efficiency increases as we spread the power out to more drivers. Like us humans, our muscles are bundles and chains of  motors and we are more efficient than the robots they are working on yet today. 

Now we go to 8 subs, .125w to each we get 99db @1w

Each time we multiply the subs by 2 with a total of 1w we always increase 3db.  Where does it end? Does it end? Can we breach 100% eff using this method?

Is 2 coils on a pulse motor more eff than 1 coil with the same power in??  4 coils? 8 coils?  2 electric hub motors on and electric bike vs 1 motor?

If this eff increase works with subwoofers, does it work with these other much more useful devices? Are we not really looking for it so we dont see it?

Think on it. How far can it go? Is it worth looking into?

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Magluvin

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Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2017, 06:52:53 AM »
Watch the girls hair half way into the vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvktyZS7TKE

Here is what they are doing in car audio these days. Called   Bass Hair Tricks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCsJtl8cwkc

Mags


Offline antijon

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Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2017, 01:47:17 AM »
Quote
Is 2 coils on a pulse motor more eff than 1 coil with the same power in??  4 coils? 8 coils?  2 electric hub motors on and electric bike vs 1 motor?

Yeah it is. Well I don't know about pulse motors, but I made a transformer like this. See the first image, just ignore the winding labels.

With two primary coils on the outside legs, the flux of the two joins in the center coil, or secondary. The flux from two or more primaries adds together to increase EMF. So The EMF law should really be altered to say "... multiplied by number of coils", not just turns.

Back to your quote above, I made a transformer by ripping up two identical 120v to 12v trannies and adding them like the image, but using only one secondary in the middle. If the two primaries are wired in series, they act like voltage dividers, so each primary is only seeing 60v. The secondary output is still 12v though. So comparing that to a normal single primary transformer, it seems like the same, except the primary inductance is doubled, which should mean less magnetizing current.

If you wire the two primaries in parallel though, the output is doubled. So in this example the output would be 24v. The important thing to know is that this doesn't obey the turns law like a normal transformer. A normal transformer would need to have two 12v transformers wired in series to get 24v. That's double the turns, and double the internal resistance. Dual primaries increases output without changing the internal resistance, so more efficient.

I haven't tried more than three primaries, but my assumption is that output voltage is multiplied by each additional coil.

So really, its about increasing flux density. Which should also work in motors or anything inductive. Just add flux side by side to increase power.

Good luck on your setup, I'm sure you'll be turning heads

Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2017, 07:45:42 PM »
Hi all, Hi magluvin, thanks again for sharing and bringing light to this idea.
I think it is true also, it is part of, if not the majority of what makes the Joseph Newman motor work so well.
I made some air coil pulse motor tests in the past and i did precisely what you are wondering about.
As i added separate motor coils in series and raised the input voltage to keep the same input watts at a certain rpm, the shaft power kept increasing for the same input.
Obviously, this can be done using a series parallel configuration, as you are probably doing with your speakers.
I have a thread here, oscillator powering 6 modified led bulbs, though it's now 12 modified led bulbs in parallel.
That is also showing efficiency benefits in regard to practical illumination, just by continuing to increase the number of led bulbs.
Some have said, that it's just the distribution of the led bulbs that gives the illusion of better lighting, i disagree, it's like the sun is blazing in this room, for only 22 watts.
That is 1.83 watts per bulb being used or 33% of normal, which is 5.5 watts each.
Each bulb is blinding to look at, it will hurt your eyes if you do that.
There is at least 4000 lumens or more radiating from all these bulbs.
Coils are probably even better to use with this additive efficiency effect.
I bet if i had 50 of these modified led bulbs plastering my ceiling, we would see even more odd (meaning greater) illumination levels, for wattage input levels that don't make sense, considering the practical light being radiated.
Joseph Newman said this should work even for materials like nichrome resistance wire, if we continue to add heater wire and maintain the same watts input, the heat output should continue to increase.
I think coefficient of performance makes better sense to use as an efficiency term, the additive effect, comes from the environment or material and the material is part of the environment.
peace love light

Offline lancaIV

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Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2017, 09:36:44 PM »
Probably this gives a link to the internal work process of the Heinrich Kunel generator,to each amplified ampere the own Ampere-turn.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2017, 09:36:44 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2017, 01:02:34 AM »
Ive put the idea out there before but lately Ive gotten back into the car audio scene and its got me thinking more..

....
Each time we multiply the subs by 2 with a total of 1w we always increase 3db.  Where does it end? Does it end? Can we breach 100% eff using this method?

Is 2 coils on a pulse motor more eff than 1 coil with the same power in??  4 coils? 8 coils?  2 electric hub motors on and electric bike vs 1 motor?

If this eff increase works with subwoofers, does it work with these other much more useful devices? Are we not really looking for it so we dont see it?

Think on it. How far can it go? Is it worth looking into?

Mags

Hi Mags,

I am sure it is worth looking into but nobody has brought such tests to a level where the question "How far can it go?" can be answered.

Same topics:
http://overunity.com/11094/why-do-two-drive-coils-draw-less-power-and-create-more-rpm/msg293892/#msg293892
and read my Reply #3 there too. 

Member Ian did build two pulse motor setups, one with a single stator coil and the other with 8 stator coils, using the same rotor for both and giving the same input power to both. The shaft torque was much higher for the 8 stator coil setup at the same input. See this thread:
http://overunity.com/1754/pulse-motor-video/msg18702/#msg18702  and also member Ian posts from Reply #9.
 
So one of your questions is answered as a definite yes. What is not answered is the achievable efficiency or COP and that how far it can go? 

This can only be answered by correct test setups and measurements.

Gyula
 

Offline antijon

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Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2017, 03:12:33 AM »
Hey Gyula, when these extra coils were added, do you know if they were added physically side by side, or lined up with the poles facing each other?

In my transformer tests, I found that the B and H fields are two different phenomenon when the coils are arranged differently.

For instance, the image below, both primaries on the same inductor, if the primaries are of the same turns, the output only increases slightly when both coils are powered in parallel. That's double the input power, but only slightly more EMF.

If the primaries are lined up, the H field is increased, which lessens the core losses. But the total flux density over area remains the same, so the EMF doesn't change much.

This is completely different compared to the side by side coils I mentioned above, that actually double the EMF due to the increased flux density.

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Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2017, 03:12:33 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2017, 08:32:18 AM »
Thanks for the replies.

What Im trying to understand is, what are the factors that enable this increase in efficiency.

Is it that we doubled the surface area of the speaker cone by adding another woofer? We also have doubled the moving mass.  I dont get it yet.

Working on it...

Mags

Offline gyulasun

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Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2017, 11:55:35 AM »

Hey Gyula, when these extra coils were added, do you know if they were added physically side by side, or lined up with the poles facing each other?
....


Hi antijon,

Please watch the start of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oIZTZeC6c4 on Ian's single coil setup and also the start of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4gAKrn5pl4  on his 8 coil setup to get an answer.

I believe your transformer example cannot really be used here as an 'apple to an apple' comparison because in Ian's pulse motor the 8 coils do not share a common magnetic core and the mutual inductive coupling between them is also negligible. This is not the case for your transformer example you described in your Reply #2 above. 
Mutual inductance, hence resultant primary coils inductance cannot be left out from the comparisons when you connect the two primaries in series aiding or opposing and in parallel aiding and opposing fashion. I mention this because this does not turn out from your test descriptions. 

Ian explained how he thought applying more and more coils with more and more number of magnets in a pulse motor, see his post here: http://overunity.com/1754/pulse-motor-video/msg35080/#msg35080  This means that the resultant impedance of the series and parallel coil combinations always remains identical to that of any of a single coil used first in the single coil setup.
This insures the same input current hence input power may enter the setup from the same voltage supply.

Gyula


   

Offline gyulasun

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Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2017, 12:29:03 PM »
Thanks for the replies.

What Im trying to understand is, what are the factors that enable this increase in efficiency.

Is it that we doubled the surface area of the speaker cone by adding another woofer? We also have doubled the moving mass.  I dont get it yet.

Working on it...

Mags

Hi Mags,

I am sure you will figure out the explanation for the speakers. Think about things like what defines sensitivity for a speaker and consider each "ingredient" in the equation how they may change when you bring in more and more speakers. Think also about resulting impedances of the speakers what real load they represent to an amplifier output as you increase their number.

Regarding the pulse motor example I brought up from Ian, one thing can clearly be deduced: the more (identical) coils are used in the series-parallel combinations (as per Ian's description) to maintain input impedance, the copper losses in all the coils do decrease (because less and less input current will flow in the branches) so more and more input power can be utilized inherently to get useful magnetic flux. i.e. the conversioin efficiency of the coils in a pulse motor inherently increases in this scenario. 

I would like to think that using and increasing the number of identical coils up to even some hundred placed around a 1 meter OD rotor of a pulse motor we would have an ou motor...   but clearly this should be built carefully to learn and experience. (The coils should be connected as per Ian's description of course,  forming the series and parallel lines and branches.)

Gyula

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Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2017, 12:29:03 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2017, 01:08:23 PM »
Hey Gyula

Like if we take 2 identical dc motors and measure the output of 1 at a particular watt in and get a particular output, then we cut the input in half and again measure the output in comparison, would adding the other motor also at half of the original input and combine the outputs, would we increase eff?

Just theoretical numbers....

1 motor 750w should be near 1hp.  Would the motors output be 1/2hp at 375w in?  Then join in the second motor, say shaft to shaft and input 375w to it also for a total of 750w, would we still be at 1hp tot?  If so, then what are we missing in the speaker analogy?   

Another analogy...

If we were to build a drone with 4 motors with props, would 8 motors and props use less energy to fly?

Drivin me nuts a bit. ;D



Like I know the speaker deal is correct.  Been through it a hundred times. 

mags

Offline lancaIV

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Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2017, 02:12:08 PM »
Hi Mags,

I am sure you will figure out the explanation for the speakers. Think about things like what defines sensitivity for a speaker and consider each "ingredient" in the equation how they may change when you bring in more and more speakers. Think also about resulting impedances of the speakers what real load they represent to an amplifier output as you increase their number.

Regarding the pulse motor example I brought up from Ian, one thing can clearly be deduced: the more (identical) coils are used in the series-parallel combinations (as per Ian's description) to maintain input impedance, the copper losses in all the coils do decrease (because less and less input current will flow in the branches) so more and more input power can be utilized inherently to get useful magnetic flux. i.e. the conversioin efficiency of the coils in a pulse motor inherently increases in this scenario. 

I would like to think that using and increasing the number of identical coils up to even some hundred placed around a 1 meter OD rotor of a pulse motor we would have an ou motor...   but clearly this should be built carefully to learn and experience. (The coils should be connected as per Ian's description of course,  forming the series and parallel lines and branches.)

Gyula

Hello gyula,
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20070201&CC=JP&NR=2007028879A&KC=A#
why should this work ?

Offline lancaIV

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Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2017, 02:17:50 PM »
"1 motor 750w should be near 1hp.                                     up to the 100% theoretical definition
                                                                                             by real world only 70-95% full efficiency

Would the motors output be 1/2hp at 375w in?                  no,decrease of efficiency

  Then join in the second motor, say shaft to shaft and input 375w to it also for a total of 750w, would we still be at 1hp tot?
                                                       two motors with only 1 common shaft ? patented : yes, but not common

                                                 If so, then what are we missing in the speaker analogy?"

   

Offline gyulasun

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Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2017, 04:44:59 PM »
Hi Mags,

Your DC motor example is not good here because efficiency changes nonlinearly when you reduce input power to a DC motor and the answer to this question I think is no, we would not increase efficiency in the example you came up with.

However, your drone example with 4 motors and 4 props versus 8 motors and 8 props sounds a good example I think, probably because the resultant ascensional power may increase with increasing surface area of the props. (I am not an expert in this field so the explanation why less energy would be needed may be different.)

Gyula


Hey Gyula

Like if we take 2 identical dc motors and measure the output of 1 at a particular watt in and get a particular output, then we cut the input in half and again measure the output in comparison, would adding the other motor also at half of the original input and combine the outputs, would we increase eff?

Just theoretical numbers....

1 motor 750w should be near 1hp.  Would the motors output be 1/2hp at 375w in?  Then join in the second motor, say shaft to shaft and input 375w to it also for a total of 750w, would we still be at 1hp tot?  If so, then what are we missing in the speaker analogy?   

Another analogy...

If we were to build a drone with 4 motors with props, would 8 motors and props use less energy to fly?

Drivin me nuts a bit. ;D



Like I know the speaker deal is correct.  Been through it a hundred times. 

mags

Offline gyulasun

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Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2017, 04:47:43 PM »
Hello gyula,
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20070201&CC=JP&NR=2007028879A&KC=A#
why should this work ?

Hi lancaIV,

I went through the machine translation of the Japanese patent text you referred to and I do not get why you included it in this topic?

To answer your question "Why should this work?" I think the inventor controls the current to a motor by nichrome wire resistors. The wire resistors are connected in parallel with each other and this  resistor assembly is placed in series with a load which is a motor in his example.
So the output current from a stabil voltage source like 100V, which is able to supply the full motor current, is controlled by the number of wire resistors switched in or out of the motor circuit.
This is what I was able to understand and if this is not so, then sorry.
If you understand what is innovative in such a setup, then please advise. It is obvious that power is dissipated in the wire resistors so motor current changes in the function of the resistor wire values.

Gyula

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Re: On Efficiency And Can We Increase It Beyond 100%
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2017, 04:47:43 PM »

 

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