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Solid States Devices => Tesla Technologgy => Topic started by: woopy on June 29, 2017, 03:35:22 PM

Title: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: woopy on June 29, 2017, 03:35:22 PM
Hi everyone

some days ago Tinselkoala made an experiment with his Teslacoil, where he could light a 120 volts incadescent bulb from one of the battery terminal (no matter + or-) and his finger or the ground.

here the 2 TK's videos, thank's for sharing.

https://youtu.be/WV3posVDqJs

https://youtu.be/S_URR6Bk9cg

As you notice the bulb is much more strong on the battery terminal than the same bulb connected to the main grid.

If i have correctly understood,TK sayd that he think that the power comes from the battery, but "what is the circuitery ?"

So as i got a mini Teslacoil, i replicated the experiment and i also could light a 220 incandescent bulb connected on one terminalof a very small (450 mA) 6 s (22 volts) lipo, and the ground of my grid.
My bulb is far not so bright as TK's, but my Teslacoil is also much smaller and is a very cheap singing coil  from China and is perhaps not very well tuned.

Here the video

https://youtu.be/ZDFEevnkuq0

As you can see on the scope, the voltage around the Teslacoil increases a lot when the bulb is connected between the terminal of the battery and the ground.

As you can also see at the end of the video, when i approach my finger on the battery, the bulb fades ? As if my body mass is in opposition with the ground of the grid, and cut the effect ??

I tried to measure the current with a clampmeter, but no way the frequency is far too high (about 3 MHz), so i tried the analog ampmeter but i doubt of the value which seems to show less current when the bulb is connected.
Today i retested without the ampmeter, and the result is even  better (probably less resistance without the meter ).

Just for info, i was holding the positiv lead to connect to the battery (the bulb was not connected) and due to a bad insulation of the crocodile clip, i got a nice but painfull burning on one of my finger. So i suppose that i played the role of the bulb in this particular case ??

Another info i did, as TK did , connect the bulb directly to the + and - of the 24 volts battery, and the bulb'  filament is nearly rosa.(almost nothing)

I have no idea of what is going on in this experiment.

So my question to TK and all of you, how can we explain this effect ?

Thank's

Laurent
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: gotoluc on June 29, 2017, 05:26:19 PM
Bonjour Laurent

The below addition should work for accurate power measurements. The capacitor value may be smaller but must be large enough to maintain a flat DC Voltage across the current sensing resistor (CSR) which is checked by your scope.
You can use a 1% 1 Ohm or 1% 0.1 Ohm as CSR.
If the voltage is flat DC across the CSR then your amp meter should measure accurately so all you need to know is the battery voltage x amps = watts

Let me know if you need anything.

Regards

Luc
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: gotoluc on June 29, 2017, 06:03:36 PM
Laurent

I made an alternative circuit connection for your bulb in case the capacitor filters out the effect.
However, looking at it now I don't see what difference this would make but worth a try if it does.

Luc
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: TinselKoala on June 29, 2017, 07:35:53 PM
1. The SSTC and experiments shown in my videos that Woopy linked above can be _dangerous_. As Woopy already found out, you can get painful RF burns from touching the wrong place and/or the wrong way. There is also an unresolved issue about X-ray emissions from the bulb experiment. I've stopped doing this experiment until I can learn more about the possible X-ray emissions.

2. This particular SSTC circuit is auto-resonating by virtue of E-field feedback through an antenna. This means the coil will automatically snap into resonance and will remain in resonance in spite of drawing arcs, lighting bulbs, varying external capacitance around the coil, etc. The resonant frequency of the coil changes from all these variations but the circuit follows the variations and automatically adjusts to keep the coil in resonance and making a strong E-field. I don't know how adding large external capacitance to the primary circuit will affect this feedback system.

3. There is no way that I would connect a DSO directly to this circuit. Don't blame me if you blow out your oscilloscope! You can easily detect the coil's resonance simply by suspending a scope probe 1 meter away from the coil, with a resistor across the tip and ground of the probe, or a bit of aluminum foil connected to the probe. But I would be very leery about directly connecting the digital scope for current measurements, etc. as in the above drawings.

4. I also don't know what effect this experiment has on the batteries powering the coil. I do know that there is a lot of HF noise on the power leads (the little toroid choke I have on the power leads gets quite hot when operating the coil, whether from batteries or from my PSU.) Similar circuits have been blamed for killing batteries. Remember that lead-acid batteries can evolve hydrogen gas when charging/discharging, and this circuit makes sparks and arcs.... And knowing how LiPo batteries can explode, I would not even consider running this circuit from LiPos, at least not inside the house.

So have fun, but play safe and don't get burned !
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: ramset on June 29, 2017, 08:51:10 PM
Recent concerns about these experiments came from here ,as well as possible solutions for protection.

http://overunity.com/15999/the-eric-dollard-lightglobe-experiment/new/#new
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: woopy on June 30, 2017, 07:47:13 PM
Hi TK

Thank's for your advices

I am surprised that this small singing Tesla coil toys which are normally sold to everybody with a 24 volts psu and a cable to connect a sound device, coul be dangerous and could emitt x-ray. But perhaps the bulb is the emitter ?? and without the bulb there is no problem at all.

What i have noticed so far:

When the TC is connected to the 24 volts psu, the bulb is less bright compared to direct connection to battery.

If i put a flat coil on top of the battery and this flat coil is connected to an antenna, the bulb is less bright.

when i put a big heavy battery (connected to nothing but forming a mass) on top of the small powering batteries, the bulb is less bright

so it seems that the less mass or antenna around the battery the better the ground connection light the bulb. It is why i suppose that the wiring around the 24 volts psu make a nice antenna and decrease the effect ??
Voila for todays consideration

Hi Luc

Thank's for the shematics
But as you can see there is a lot to test for better grasping the effect and before going on precise measurement and TK is probably right concerning a direct connection of the scope into the circuit

hope this helps

Laurent.




Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: TeslaScientific on July 02, 2017, 11:58:27 PM
Hello. The circuit is unnecessarily complicated which results in confusion. A Tesla coil, as Tesla designed it, is intended to output the energy from the GROUND end of the coil through the earth, or whatever medium. That's where the coil output is, not the top end. The capacitance terminal is supposed to SUPPRESS radiation and prevent energy from escaping, including suppressing sparks which represent wasted energy.

These circuits have the ground end of the coil connected back into the circuit which is completely the wrong way to go about it if it's intended to operate as an actual Tesla coil, because that's where the load or transmission medium is supposed to go. I would recommend using a simple variable frequency oscillator with an amplifier of whatever power to drive the primary coil. This leaves the secondary completely free to do the job it was intended to do, which is output useful energy via a single wire/terminal at the ground end, and avoids confusion caused by inadvisable circuit configurations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq7xSG91YCg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDU5Pe9wr8g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DovunOxlY1k
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: endlessoceans on July 03, 2017, 02:57:49 AM
Hi everyone



I have no idea of what is going on in this experiment.

So my question to TK and all of you, how can we explain this effect ?

Thank's

Laurent


Hi Laurent

Very easily explainable and replicable.  Firstly 4 Watt load is very small otherwise the filament will not glow.   This is a HF HV circuit.  Which simply equates to a LOT of energy being lost/transmitted through the topload.  So where do you think this energy goes?  By attaching to the ground or the terminal of the battery you are merely completing the circuit and you have a closed circuit again.   
This circuit and coils have minor configuration difference but it behaves much like a joule thief with the same limitations.

You just have to be respectful of the HV HF and dangers for your fingers.  ;D

You can perform same thing at lower more respectful voltage without all the losses.  In fact many of your former experiments you have done this without realising.  Just coming full circle on another configuration. 

Interesting but not OU.   Classical Tesla tech.



Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: woopy on July 04, 2017, 04:56:30 PM
Hi Teslascientific and Endlessoceans

Thank's for input

Youp what is correct ?

Ts    says that in a teslacoil the energy should  go from the ground (bottom) of the coil to the earth or else. And the tophead  cap should be calculated to prevent as much as possible the radiations or losses in order to concentrate a max of power  on the  ground part of the coil.

 Eo    says that the energy irradiate from the tophead of the coil all over the place so , by touching the battery terminal with the bulb and main ground, we simply close the circuit. So far i understand  the power should comes from the top of the coil.

Both answers  seems some how contradictory or am i missing something?

Laurent

Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: forest on July 04, 2017, 05:17:56 PM
I think both is correct.Tesla first wanted to send energy via upper strata, then one day he found stationary waves in Earth crust.
For our purpose it is important to avoid both methods ;-)
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: ramset on July 04, 2017, 09:13:12 PM
Apologize for the intrusion !



Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: TeslaScientific on July 04, 2017, 09:57:06 PM
Hi Teslascientific and Endlessoceans

Thank's for input

Youp what is correct ?

Ts    says that in a teslacoil the energy should  go from the ground (bottom) of the coil to the earth or else. And the tophead  cap should be calculated to prevent as much as possible the radiations or losses in order to concentrate a max of power  on the  ground part of the coil.

 Eo    says that the energy irradiate from the tophead of the coil all over the place so , by touching the battery terminal with the bulb and main ground, we simply close the circuit. So far i understand  the power should comes from the top of the coil.

Both answers  seems some how contradictory or am i missing something?

Laurent

Hi woopy.

Despite what others may say, it is operating as a standard Tesla coil. The coil will have a 1/4 wave resonant potential and current distribution over it. This means that the maximum current is at the GROUND end of the coil. Maximum potential is at the FREE end of the coil. That's why the sparks come from the free end. The current is at the opposite end of the coil, 90 degrees, or 1/4 wavelength, out of phase.

https://maritime.org/doc/radio/img/fig142.jpg

Hence, when the ground end of the coil is connected back into the circuit for "feedback" due to not using a proper variable frequency oscillator, all the energy is being sent back into the circuit, so no wonder you are lighting incandescent bulbs off the battery terminals. In a similar manner is how Tesla blew up the substation at Colorado Springs, he was inadvertently sending RF back down the power line.

If you want to understand what's going on then I would advise you to simplify the whole thing and remove the unnecessarily complicated circuitry. Isolate the effect. Drive the primary with a simple high frequency AC source and the secondary will work as intended, the effect has nothing to do with the batteries or the circuit, that's what a Tesla coil is SUPPOSED to do.

It's a SINGLE wire single terminal transmission system. There is no "ground loop" or "closed circuits" through air gaps. It's exactly like the AT&T/Bell Labs video shows. The waves reflect/oscillate back and forth along the transmission line/structure, and that's why the bulb lights with one wire, not because of imaginary closed circuits. It's not necessary to form a closed circuit.

Quote from: Nikola Tesla
You see, the apparatus which I have devised was an apparatus enabling one to produce tremendous differences of potential and currents in an antenna circuit.  These requirements must be fulfilled, whether you transmit by currents of conduction, or whether you transmit by electromagnetic waves.  You want high potential currents, you want a great amount of vibratory energy; but you can graduate this vibratory energy.  By proper design and choice of wave lengths, you can arrange it so that you get, for instance, 5 percent in these electromagnetic waves and 95 percent in the current that goes through the earth.  That is what I am doing.  Or you can get, as these radio men, 95 percent in the energy of electromagnetic waves and only 5 percent in the energy of the current. . . . The apparatus is suitable for one or the other method.  I am not producing radiation with my system; I am suppressing electromagnetic waves. . . . In my system, you should free yourself of the idea that there is radiation, that the energy is radiated.  It is not radiated; it is conserved.

http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/nt_on_ac.htm
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: TinselKoala on July 05, 2017, 02:25:28 AM
Half right, almost all wrong.

1. The feedback system of this coil does _NOT_ depend on the bottom of the secondary being connected back to the circuit, like in Kacher/Slayer circuits. The feedback comes through an antenna which is picking up the oscillating E-field produced when the secondary is in resonance. The system works even when the bottom of the secondary is disconnected from the driver circuit's negative rail and is connected to true Earth ground instead.

2. A fixed frequency oscillator will require constant tuning if the secondary is to stay in resonance while drawing sparks, powering loads, etc. This is because the actual resonant frequency of the secondary+load changes during these manipulations. A little research will show that the most successful SSTCs will either use a phaselocked loop circuit or antenna>CMOS gate>driver chip or similar circuit so that the frequency of the driver is always automatically keeping the secondary in resonance as its frequency changes due to loads, environment, etc.

3. Compare the circuit board and schematic of this coil, with what is posted above. Which is truly simpler? Count the parts. Which is smaller? Mine sits on a footprint that is 8 inches x 5 1/2 inches, half the size of a standard sheet of typing paper, not including the batteries. It's fully portable, can be easily taken out of doors, and requires no mains connection, no external signal generator, no actual earth ground.


Yes, it is working as a 1/4 wave resonator producing Voltage Rise by Standing Wave Resonance. That much, at least, is correct. Note that the primary has only 3 turns, is driven by a single mosfet switching 24 volts, and has no power-wasting resistors in the circuit.

Someone else "explained" that the effect I showed is due to power being reflected from the top capacity back into the drive circuit. The only problem with this "explanation" is that the demonstration works the same, with or without the top capacity on the secondary.
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: TeslaScientific on July 05, 2017, 03:08:22 AM
2. A fixed frequency oscillator will require constant tuning if the secondary is to stay in resonance while drawing sparks, powering loads, etc. This is because the actual resonant frequency of the secondary+load changes during these manipulations. A little research will show that the most successful SSTCs will either use a phaselocked loop circuit or antenna>CMOS gate>driver chip or similar circuit so that the frequency of the driver is always automatically keeping the secondary in resonance as its frequency changes due to loads, environment, etc.

It doesn't require constant tuning. It requires tuning once. Which is done deliberately to a specific frequency, and not some arbitrary frequency. That's point #1 about learning and engineering. When the coil is tuned with a sufficiently large ground capacitance, the relatively small capacitance of the load doesn't make any difference. The coil is already tuned to maximum output. There's no reason to retune it. As for loads connected directly to the coil output without such a capacitance or transmission medium, those are "experimental" conditions in which adjustments are to be expected, and it's not very difficult to press a few buttons or turn a knob and tune it to the new, temporary frequency. What's more, the primary capacitor should also need adjusting.

3. Compare the circuit board and schematic of this coil, with what is posted above. Which is truly simpler? Count the parts. Which is smaller? Mine sits on a footprint that is 8 inches x 5 1/2 inches, half the size of a standard sheet of typing paper, not including the batteries. It's fully portable, can be easily taken out of doors, and requires no mains connection, no external signal generator, no actual earth ground.

The point is the simplicity of the approach. You simply connect the primary coil to the power supply, and that's it. The coil has no interaction with any other circuitry, no feedback antennas or any unpredictable variables. Also I might point out that the circuit is simply an op amp circuit and not much could be simpler than that. It also has a modulator at the first stage to enable amplitude modulation with audio input which isn't necessary at all for its operation. You may notice that the board is in 3 sections. That's because it's a modular/3 stage amplifier, and any one stage can work alone or together. I can also remove the output resistors if I like, but I choose to match it to the primary coil impedance. But I'm not sure that it's necessary to get into a competition over output impedance.

The primary has 2 turns. Secondary 17 turns. Extra coil 100 turns.

Someone else "explained" that the effect I showed is due to power being reflected from the top capacity back into the drive circuit. The only problem with this "explanation" is that the demonstration works the same, with or without the top capacity on the secondary.

I'm sure it does work the same. But that's not quite right. A wire end is a termination. There's a change in impedance. It's an open circuit. Hence the wave reflects back from whence it came, which is back down through the coil. Of course, a wire is an efficient radiator of energy which is why they're used as radio antennas all over the place so more energy is radiated than would be if there was a large capacitance, but the coil is in resonance BECAUSE the wave is reflected and forms a standing wave distribution along the coil. If the wave wasn't reflected back down the coil then it could never resonate.

Either way, if the circuit works without the ground end of the secondary being connected back into the circuit, then that's the advisable way to use a Tesla coil since that's supposed to be the output of the coil.

So my question to TK and all of you, how can we explain this effect ?

.
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: forest on July 05, 2017, 07:54:14 AM
This fight will never stop ,unless somebody show that Tesla coil can be used in 2 or 3 completely different modes of operation. That is the reason people cannot replicate Tesla findings. Confusion.
Would be VERY VERY IMPORTANT to scale down TeslaScientific Tesla coil and compare the results with RF version. I do believe this is not RF exactly like Tesla said.
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: TeslaScientific on July 05, 2017, 09:30:10 AM
This fight will never stop ,unless somebody show that Tesla coil can be used in 2 or 3 completely different modes of operation. That is the reason people cannot replicate Tesla findings. Confusion.
Would be VERY VERY IMPORTANT to scale down TeslaScientific Tesla coil and compare the results with RF version. I do believe this is not RF exactly like Tesla said.

It can be, but the question was how to explain the effect. So I said remove all the unnecessary components, and see what causes it. Instead of fiddling with the circuit and battery, that's not what the source of the effect is. It's the high frequency high potential AC output from the coil. Replace the circuit entirely, remove the battery, change everything, and the effect will remain, because the coil remains. So if it can be done without the circuit or the battery, then neither the circuit nor the battery have anything to do with the effect.

The coil I'm using is Tesla's Colorado Springs coil scaled down to the 160 metre amateur radio band, but it works the same with every coil.
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: tinman on July 05, 2017, 01:28:50 PM
 author=TeslaScientific link=topic=17334.msg507932#msg507932 date=1499198226]



Quote
It's a SINGLE wire single terminal transmission system. There is no "ground loop" or "closed circuits" through air gaps. It's exactly like the AT&T/Bell Labs video shows. The waves reflect/oscillate back and forth along the transmission line/structure, and that's why the bulb lights with one wire, not because of imaginary closed circuits. It's not necessary to form a closed circuit.

That is not correct--there is always a path for the current to follow-or flow through.

In this case,it is via capacitive coupling,as shown in all your pictures you posted,where you are one end/plate of that capacitor.

Try lighting your incandescent bulb's without touching them,or having a can(as a cap plate) attached to one end of the bulb--you will see that it will either not light at all,or it will be extremely dull,where the bulb casing itself is acting as a small capacitor plate.

At high frequencies,even the smallest value of capacitance can deliver high amounts of current-even when that path is through the air.

Your incandescent bulb's(and i suspect the same with TKs setup),are being lit due to capacitive coupling,which completes the path for current to flow,and where the air around you is the dielectric between the capacitor plates(you and the circuit).


Brad
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: forest on July 05, 2017, 02:52:30 PM
What is that magic "capacitive coupling" ? People are trying to explain everything based on this concept, but it is only related to RF coupling.


 What if the bulb is on the long line connected to one of the terminals of the dual Tesla coil secondary with the second terminal connected to the proper capacitor plate, and bulb is connected then to the metallic plate and is brightly lit ? That was described in one of Tesla;s lectures.
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: tinman on July 05, 2017, 03:07:12 PM





Quote
What is that magic "capacitive coupling" ? People are trying to explain everything based on this concept, but it is only related to RF coupling.

RF-meaning high frequency.
As i stated,a very small value capacitance can deliver high currents at high frequencies.

Quote
What if the bulb is on the long line connected to one of the terminals of the dual Tesla coil secondary with the second terminal connected to the proper capacitor plate, and bulb is connected then to the metallic plate and is brightly lit ? That was described in one of Tesla;s lectures.

The answer is very simple--can you light an incandescent bulb with only one of it's terminals connected to one half of the source?

Every time you see an incandescent bulb being lit,it always has a capacitive coupler plate connected to one terminal of the bulb,and the other terminal of the bulb is connected to one part of the circuit.

Try and light an incandescent bulb as pictured below,where there is no capacitive path for current to flow.
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: tinman on July 05, 2017, 03:42:52 PM
What is that magic "capacitive coupling" ? People are trying to explain everything based on this concept, but it is only related to RF coupling.


 What if the bulb is on the long line connected to one of the terminals of the dual Tesla coil secondary with the second terminal connected to the proper capacitor plate, and bulb is connected then to the metallic plate and is brightly lit ? That was described in one of Tesla;s lectures.

forest,read this,and you will understand what i am talking about

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_transmission_line

Quote:  At much higher frequencies, however, it is possible for the return circuit (which would normally be connected through a second wire) to utilize the self- and parasitic capacitance of a large conductive object, perhaps the housing of the load itself. Although the self-capacitance of even large objects is rather small in ordinary terms, as Tesla himself appreciated it is possible to resonate that capacitance using a sufficiently large inductor (depending on the frequency used), in which case the large reactance of that capacitance is cancelled out. This allows a large current to flow (and a large power to be supplied to the load) without requiring an extremely high voltage source.

Brad
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: woopy on July 05, 2017, 04:26:47 PM
Thank's Tinman and Forest

Now we are going on the original question of this thread

What seems to hapeen between the Tc, the battery , the bulb, and the ground should  be" capacitive coupling" or stray capacitance or...

Until now i always thought that this "capacitive coupling " was something annoying in electronic circuit, so to me something of small value, and in no case capable of lighting brightly an incandecent bulb.

But it seems that  at high frequency we should be able to "resonate" that small capacitance so the  reactance of this capacitance decreases and so a large current can pass through. thin air!!!

Whaouu! that's interesting

So the difference of the brightness between TK'sbulb and my small chines Tc shoulds be the ability to more or less "resonate" the capacitance all arround us.

Now i think that it is important to study better the phenomena and try to determine how is the electron flow (current) moving in this "pseudo open" environnement?

Thank's to all for contribution

Laurent
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: endlessoceans on July 05, 2017, 04:46:26 PM

But it seems that  at high frequency we should be able to "resonate" that small capacitance so the  reactance of this capacitance decreases and so a large current can pass through. thin air!!!

Whaouu! that's interesting


Now i think that it is important to study better the phenomena and try to determine how is the electron flow (current) moving in this "pseudo open" environnement?

Thank's to all for contribution

Laurent

Woopy

This is nothing new and it has been well studied long time ago.

  the air is NOT so thin......you pump enough energy into any medium and it will conduct.....it all comes down to how much waste there will be....and there IS waste.

I didn't bother with replying to the so called "contradictions" because there was too much nit picking on the terminology.  Basically you had three guys saying much the same thing but getting caught up in the language of how they express it.  HF transmission is an interesting field with many applications and that's why Tesla spent so much time with it.

Also don't lose sight of the fact it was a 4 watt bulb (tiny load).......and not OU.

Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: woopy on July 05, 2017, 10:00:46 PM
Woopy

This is nothing new and it has been well studied long time ago.

  the air is NOT so thin......you pump enough energy into any medium and it will conduct.....it all comes down to how much waste there will be....and there IS waste.

I didn't bother with replying to the so called "contradictions" because there was too much nit picking on the terminology.  Basically you had three guys saying much the same thing but getting caught up in the language of how they express it.  HF transmission is an interesting field with many applications and that's why Tesla spent so much time with it.

Also don't lose sight of the fact it was a 4 watt bulb (tiny load).......and not OU.

Hi e o

You say that this is nothing new, and a lot of studies are already made.
 
To me it is  new and i would  improve my knowledge and i would very much apreciate some  links to the studies you mentionned on the subject.

Many thank's

Laurent
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: TeslaScientific on July 05, 2017, 11:06:10 PM
That is not correct--there is always a path for the current to follow-or flow through.

In this case,it is via capacitive coupling,as shown in all your pictures you posted,where you are one end/plate of that capacitor.

Try lighting your incandescent bulb's without touching them,or having a can(as a cap plate) attached to one end of the bulb--you will see that it will either not light at all,or it will be extremely dull,where the bulb casing itself is acting as a small capacitor plate.

At high frequencies,even the smallest value of capacitance can deliver high amounts of current-even when that path is through the air.

Your incandescent bulb's(and i suspect the same with TKs setup),are being lit due to capacitive coupling,which completes the path for current to flow,and where the air around you is the dielectric between the capacitor plates(you and the circuit).


Brad

It definitely has nothing to do with capacitive coupling. It IS a ONE WIRE SINGLE POLE system. The capacitance doesn't couple any energy. Putting a small capacitor across the bulb would do the same. It's only a "load" that the energy will reflect from. When the bulb filament is the end of the transmission line, of course it doesn't light, why should it? Why should the energy flow through the filament and heat it up to produce light? When you put a terminating capacitance AFTER the filament, now the energy flows THROUGH the filament, and it lights. 100% NOT capacitive coupling. It's absolutely based on the fact that the energy is reflecting back and forth within the terminating bounds of the transmission line, just like the Bell Labs video shows. The bulb filament happens to be at some point along that transmission line, so the oscillating energy is flowing through it, and so it lights. No "ground" or "return loop" or "capacitive coupling" necessary. The "ground" is the one and only, live terminal.

Inconvenient fact #1: Capacitive coupling depends on the capacitance. The capacitance depends on the distance. Unfortunately for some speculations and hypotheses, the distance from the coil makes no difference whatsoever. Hence the capacitance makes no difference whatsoever. Hence it is not capacitive coupling.

Inconvenient fact #2: Radiated energy is governed by the inverse square law. 1/distance squared. Double the distance, quarter the power. I double the distance, and I get the same amount of power. Why? Because the energy is only going through the wire.

Even if Tesla himself told you what was happening, someone out there would still argue back and tell him that he's wrong.

http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/1908-00-00.htm

https://teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla/articles/famous-scientific-illusions

http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/nt_on_ac.htm

http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/1919-05-00.htm
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: tinman on July 06, 2017, 01:22:49 AM
It definitely has nothing to do with capacitive coupling. It IS a ONE WIRE SINGLE POLE system. The capacitance doesn't couple any energy. Putting a small capacitor across the bulb would do the same. It's only a "load" that the energy will reflect from. When the bulb filament is the end of the transmission line, of course it doesn't light, why should it? Why should the energy flow through the filament and heat it up to produce light? When you put a terminating capacitance AFTER the filament, now the energy flows THROUGH the filament, and it lights. 100% NOT capacitive coupling. It's absolutely based on the fact that the energy is reflecting back and forth within the terminating bounds of the transmission line, just like the Bell Labs video shows. The bulb filament happens to be at some point along that transmission line, so the oscillating energy is flowing through it, and so it lights. No "ground" or "return loop" or "capacitive coupling" necessary. The "ground" is the one and only, live terminal.

Inconvenient fact #1: Capacitive coupling depends on the capacitance. The capacitance depends on the distance. Unfortunately for some speculations and hypotheses, the distance from the coil makes no difference whatsoever. Hence the capacitance makes no difference whatsoever. Hence it is not capacitive coupling.

Inconvenient fact #2: Radiated energy is governed by the inverse square law. 1/distance squared. Double the distance, quarter the power. I double the distance, and I get the same amount of power. Why? Because the energy is only going through the wire.

Even if Tesla himself told you what was happening, someone out there would still argue back and tell him that he's wrong.

http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/1908-00-00.htm

https://teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla/articles/famous-scientific-illusions

http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/nt_on_ac.htm

http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/1919-05-00.htm

Perhaps you should study up on ground plane's a little.


Brad
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: blueplanet on July 06, 2017, 07:51:50 AM
All i can say is, the whole civilization of this date has been brain-washed too much by the text-book knowledge.
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: forest on July 06, 2017, 02:21:54 PM
You should more listen to TeslaScientific. I agree 100%. This is single wire transmission line, or at least 95% of it like Tesla stated. The main confusion is that tesla device can be used both to create single wire transmission of this special waves and to radiate radio frequency waves.


It's not that easy to duplicate Tesla's findings - TeslaScientific  please : show us all information to replicate your device (maybe in smaller scale if possible) or the confusion would take next 100 years.


How you guys would be able to replicate Kapanadze overunity devices without replication of Tesla's findings ? Tesla stated clearly he invented a way to capture and use ambient energy.
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: TeslaScientific on July 06, 2017, 03:01:04 PM
You should more listen to TeslaScientific. I agree 100%. This is single wire transmission line, or at least 95% of it like Tesla stated. The main confusion is that tesla device can be used both to create single wire transmission of this special waves and to radiate radio frequency waves.


It's not that easy to duplicate Tesla's findings - TeslaScientific  please : show us all information to replicate your device (maybe in smaller scale if possible) or the confusion would take next 100 years.


How you guys would be able to replicate Kapanadze overunity devices without replication of Tesla's findings ? Tesla stated clearly he invented a way to capture and use ambient energy.

Thank you forest. I'd agree with what you said too. It can be used in both ways. I've already posted this but apparently some have an allergic reaction to reading what Tesla had to say:

Quote from: Nikola Tesla
You see, the apparatus which I have devised was an apparatus enabling one to produce tremendous differences of potential and currents in an antenna circuit.  These requirements must be fulfilled, whether you transmit by currents of conduction, or whether you transmit by electromagnetic waves.  You want high potential currents, you want a great amount of vibratory energy; but you can graduate this vibratory energy.  By proper design and choice of wave lengths, you can arrange it so that you get, for instance, 5 percent in these electromagnetic waves and 95 percent in the current that goes through the earth.  That is what I am doing.  Or you can get, as these radio men, 95 percent in the energy of electromagnetic waves and only 5 percent in the energy of the current. . . . The apparatus is suitable for one or the other method.  I am not producing radiation with my system; I am suppressing electromagnetic waves. . . . In my system, you should free yourself of the idea that there is radiation, that the energy is radiated.  It is not radiated; it is conserved.

That coil design is available on my web site:

http://www.teslascientific.com/product/colorado-springs-magnifying-transmitter-scale-model-design-sheet/

Or the original design and all the details are in Colorado Springs Notes. But the basic effect is the same with every coil, but as Tesla points out in the quote above, a proper (optimised) design will yield the most desirable results. There's also a free calculator on the web site for Eric Dollard's Crystal Radio Initiative coils, those would work too. But I think the problem is more a lack of listening to what Tesla said...

Ernst from Energetic Forum has been doing some good work too, I don't have a direct link to the document he published but the link is somewhere in the description on one of his videos

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheMage00000/videos
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: tinman on July 06, 2017, 03:17:28 PM
The capacitance doesn't couple any energy. Putting a small capacitor across the bulb would do the same. It's only a "load" that the energy will reflect from. Why should the energy flow through the filament and heat it up to produce light?   just like the Bell Labs video shows. The bulb filament happens to be at some point along that transmission line, so the oscillating energy is flowing through it, and so it lights. No "ground" or "return loop" or "capacitive coupling" necessary. The "ground" is the one and only, live terminal.

Inconvenient fact #1: Capacitive coupling depends on the capacitance. The capacitance depends on the distance. Unfortunately for some speculations and hypotheses, the distance from the coil makes no difference whatsoever. Hence the capacitance makes no difference whatsoever. Hence it is not capacitive coupling.

Inconvenient fact #2: Radiated energy is governed by the inverse square law. 1/distance squared. Double the distance, quarter the power. I double the distance, and I get the same amount of power. Why? Because the energy is only going through the wire.

Even if Tesla himself told you what was happening, someone out there would still argue back and tell him that he's wrong.

http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/1908-00-00.htm

https://teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla/articles/famous-scientific-illusions

http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/nt_on_ac.htm

http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/1919-05-00.htm

Quote
When the bulb filament is the end of the transmission line, of course it doesn't light, why should it?

Because if current could be delivered to a load via one single wire,then that current should be able to be delivered to that load,regardless of where that load is placed along that single wire.

Quote
It definitely has nothing to do with capacitive coupling. It IS a ONE WIRE SINGLE POLE system.

But your statement above say's  that one wire cannot light the bulb unless--Quote:When you put a terminating capacitance AFTER the filament, now the energy flows THROUGH the filament, and it lights.

That is correct. There needs to be some form of plate after the bulb in order for it to light--that is the conductor acting as one capacitor plate.

Quote
100% NOT capacitive coupling. It's absolutely based on the fact that the energy is reflecting back and forth within the terminating bounds of the transmission line,

The fact that you need anything after the bulb,in order for the bulb to light,is proof beyond doubt that it is capacitive coupling.

Nature it self shows us this with lightning.
One of the plates is the ground,and the other is the clouds. When the potential is high enough,the discharge arc takes place-over fare greater distances than you can demonstrate with your systems.

So once again,you need some form of plate or antenna !after! the bulb,in order for the bulb to light,and so,the bulb is being lit due to capacitive coupling,and not by current flowing back and forth along a single conductor.

Whether you want to believe it or not,in order for current to flow,there must be a path for it to follow.

Please read,so as you may understand what is happening,and stray from giving wrong information.
I have highlighted the part you are missing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_transmission_line

At the end of the 19th century, Nikola Tesla demonstrated that by using an electrical network tuned to resonance it was possible to transmit electric power using only a single conductor, with no need for a return wire. This was spoken of as the "transmission of electrical energy through one wire without return".[1][2]

In 1891, 1892, and 1893 demonstration lectures with electrical oscillators before the AIEE at Columbia College, N.Y.C., the IEE, London, the Franklin Institute, Philadelphia, and National Electric Light Association, St. Louis, it was shown that electric motors and single-terminal incandescent lamps can be operated through a single conductor without a return wire. Although apparently lacking a complete circuit, such a topology effectively obtains a return circuit by virtue of the load's self-capacitance and parasitic capacitance

So once again--the bulb lights because of the capacitive coupling.


Brad
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: tinman on July 06, 2017, 03:33:43 PM
Here is another video showing a single wire transmission line delivering a lot of power to a load-in this case,an electric motor-and then an additional load of incandescent bulbs  ;).

Please pay attention at 2:50


Brad
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: tinman on July 06, 2017, 03:50:49 PM
For those that want to know how a transmission line works,and how power is delivered to a load via 1 wire.
The second conductor(wire) in the case of experiments carried out here in this thread,and else where,is the ground(ground plane) it self.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozeYaikI11g


Brad
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: TeslaScientific on July 06, 2017, 04:12:01 PM
Because if current could be delivered to a load via one single wire,then that current should be able to be delivered to that load,regardless of where that load is placed along that single wire.

But your statement above say's  that one wire cannot light the bulb unless--Quote:When you put a terminating capacitance AFTER the filament, now the energy flows THROUGH the filament, and it lights.

That is correct. There needs to be some form of plate after the bulb in order for it to light--that is the conductor acting as one capacitor plate.

The fact that you need anything after the bulb,in order for the bulb to light,is proof beyond doubt that it is capacitive coupling.

Nature it self shows us this with lightning.
One of the plates is the ground,and the other is the clouds. When the potential is high enough,the discharge arc takes place-over fare greater distances than you can demonstrate with your systems.

So once again,you need some form of plate or antenna !after! the bulb,in order for the bulb to light,and so,the bulb is being lit due to capacitive coupling,and not by current flowing back and forth along a single conductor.

Whether you want to believe it or not,in order for current to flow,there must be a path for it to follow.

Please read,so as you may understand what is happening,and stray from giving wrong information.
I have highlighted the part you are missing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_transmission_line

At the end of the 19th century, Nikola Tesla demonstrated that by using an electrical network tuned to resonance it was possible to transmit electric power using only a single conductor, with no need for a return wire. This was spoken of as the "transmission of electrical energy through one wire without return".[1][2]

In 1891, 1892, and 1893 demonstration lectures with electrical oscillators before the AIEE at Columbia College, N.Y.C., the IEE, London, the Franklin Institute, Philadelphia, and National Electric Light Association, St. Louis, it was shown that electric motors and single-terminal incandescent lamps can be operated through a single conductor without a return wire. Although apparently lacking a complete circuit, such a topology effectively obtains a return circuit by virtue of the load's self-capacitance and parasitic capacitance

So once again--the bulb lights because of the capacitive coupling.


Brad

Capacitive coupling is the coupling of energy through a capacitance. The bulb is connected by a conductor, not a capacitance.

It makes all the difference where the load is connected along the wire, because you are dealing with high frequencies. You can connect the bulb back to a different point along the same wire in a short circuit and the bulb will still light, because there's a potential difference across the filament, and there isn't a short circuit there at all at those frequencies. That's all it needs. Tesla demonstrated that experiment in public to illustrate the existence of standing waves along the length of a conductor, corresponding to the frequency.

How is one side of a bulb terminal considered a "load"? Why should it light? What is the current supposed to do in this situation? A filament lights because the energy flows through it, so when the filament is made to be a part of the transmission line rather than the end of it, energy flows through it, and it lights. The same energy is flowing, or rather oscillating, along the entire length of the wire, but the wire isn't a bulb filament so you can't see it. Again, put a variable capacitor across the bulb and you will be able to control the brightness through adjusting the capacitance. So again, the energy is not received through capacitive coupling nor does it close any circuit back to the source. The capacitance merely facilitates a sufficient difference in potential across the filament as an isolated part of the system. The bigger the capacitance, the bigger the potential difference, the brighter the bulb. That's all there is to it.

Unfortunately Wikipedia doesn't know any more than the best expert does. And clearly none of the editors have ever bothered to repeat Tesla's experiments because they are quite happy to apply their own explanations which explain nothing. What you say is valid within the bounds of what it's applicable to, but it's most certainly not applicable in this situation. It's a capacitance to SPACE, not back to the power source. Also in the articles the Wikipedia page references, Tesla is speaking of his own design of single terminal bulbs consisting of a single piece of carbon, not a filament which power must flow through.

Quote from: Nikola Tesla
we may consider the inside surface of the bulb as one coating of a condenser, the air and other objects surrounding the bulb forming the other coating.

http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/1891-05-20.htm

This is the part that you are missing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DovunOxlY1k
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: TeslaScientific on July 06, 2017, 04:17:33 PM
For those that want to know how a transmission line works,and how power is delivered to a load via 1 wire.
The second conductor(wire) in the case of experiments carried out here in this thread,and else where,is the ground(ground plane) it self.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozeYaikI11g


Brad

The "ground plane" is the ONLY conductor. That is the wireless = single wire transmission system. Forget the air.

Also, it's quite easy to measure faster than light propagation, it's all about which path the energy takes. It's right there in Colorado Springs Notes. Take the extra coil conductor length and resonant frequency, and see what you come up with...
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: Magluvin on July 06, 2017, 05:11:11 PM
Ive always thought of it as electrons being compressed onto one end and depleted at the other end, capacitance in the air or not. Like say if we have a 12v car battery, I would bet that there are an excess of electrons in the outer exposed - lead terminal and a depletion of electrons in the + lead terminal, meaning the lead terminal mass.  If we have a high voltage, high freq nst with an open secondary, I believe that the electrons in the sec are being compressed and decompressed from one end of the winding to the other at the freq of operation. With that, if I connect 1 lead of the sec to ground, and the swing of compression is in the direction of the ground, then those compressed electrons have a place to go and not be only compressed in the end of the winding, whether there be capacitance in the air or not. I will say that the capacitance in the air can help release more from the winding to the ground, but I think that even without or in the absence of the air capacitance that the compression alone in the open circuit could cause currents to flow through the bulb.  In a way, we could look at the earth as a huge reservoir that can accept and give electrons easily as with what we are doing wouldnt put that much of a charge to affect the reservoir charge in any significant way that the exchange would be impeded much. And when we hold the light bulb at the base and 1 wire from the coil on the other bulb terminal, our body acts as a similar reservoir, only not so large, but large enough to take and give electrons, especially at high freq.

The capacitance can help more electron transfer as shown in the vid below, but I do believe that it is not absolutely necessary at high freq hv potential.

Like I keep hearing that the capacitance of a bifi is so insignificant and only parasitic, yet when it comes to these things, the minute capacitance involved seem to be a big part of the explanation for the 1 wire deal.  Capacitance will always be at play. But like I said, I really think there is compression and decompression within the sec of the tc, and even the tiny nst that drives it, of which I use it in the vid to charge the caps via AV plug in the vid.

But, we cant really eliminate the cap effects to really test it all.  But I dont find it hard to believe that if we attach 1 end of the hf hv sec to a chunk of copper that the copper chunk wouldnt give and take electrons being compressed and decompressed on that end of the sec.

And the pics below show the diff between the bulb lighting 1 wire to the bottom and then the top of the sec of the Lil Tc. I am the reservoir.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR3WmK3qrws



Mags
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: TeslaScientific on July 06, 2017, 06:29:24 PM
There are a few things that you may or may not know so I'll say them anyway:

It's a natural requirement/condition of 1/4 wave resonance that the current lags the voltage by 90 degrees = 1/4 cycle of the wave = the length of the resonator. Due to the reflections that occur, a standing wave forms, and the current and potential are distributed at opposite ends of the coil. Maximum current is at the ground end, and maximum potential is at the top/free end, 90 degrees or 1/4 wavelength apart, physically, in space. "Free" being the end with the least capacitance.

When one end of the coil is connected to earth or a big capacity, the free end becomes sensitive to parasitic/external capacitance, which throws the coil out of resonance, and if it's too much then it will stop working altogether.

When both ends of a coil are free or have equal capacitance then it will become 1/2 wave resonant. Through increasing the capacity on one end, the coil can effectively be "biased", and the highest potential will be forced to the end with the least capacity, which presents the greatest opportunity to escape from the system. But this will be the end that's most sensitive to external capacitance.

As some of my pictures show, the bulbs are brightest when they are in series with the capacitance terminal on the top end of the coil, because the energy has to flow from the coil to the terminal and back again in order to resonate, and that's where the highest potential is. But I could never hold the bulb in my hand and light it from the top terminal, because the capacitance of my body would throw the coil completely out of resonance, and so in order to do that I would need to retune it to work while my body is connected to it.

On the other hand, when there's a larger capacitance on the ground end of the coil, which includes the primary and its inductance and the capacitance of the circuit etc, the coil is tuned to its natural resonant frequency, and so there's no amount of capacitance that I can add that would affect its resonant frequency, so I can easily hold the bulb to the terminal and light it in my hand without having to retune the coil, because I'm taking the output from the end that ALREADY has the bigger capacity, and the coil is already tuned to output energy. The free end is doing what it's supposed to do - remaining free to resonate with the maximum potential, and the ground end is outputting the energy.

So I would say that for these reasons, your bulb is brighter at one end than the other. If the primary was placed along the centre of the coil, then assuming everything is mirrored, then the bulb should be equally bright (or not) at both ends.
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: tinman on July 07, 2017, 01:21:04 AM
There are a few things that you may or may not know so I'll say them anyway:

It's a natural requirement/condition of 1/4 wave resonance that the current lags the voltage by 90 degrees = 1/4 cycle of the wave = the length of the resonator. Due to the reflections that occur, a standing wave forms, and the current and potential are distributed at opposite ends of the coil. Maximum current is at the ground end, and maximum potential is at the top/free end, 90 degrees or 1/4 wavelength apart, physically, in space. "Free" being the end with the least capacitance.

When one end of the coil is connected to earth or a big capacity, the free end becomes sensitive to parasitic/external capacitance, which throws the coil out of resonance, and if it's too much then it will stop working altogether.

When both ends of a coil are free or have equal capacitance then it will become 1/2 wave resonant. Through increasing the capacity on one end, the coil can effectively be "biased", and the highest potential will be forced to the end with the least capacity, which presents the greatest opportunity to escape from the system. But this will be the end that's most sensitive to external capacitance.

As some of my pictures show, the bulbs are brightest when they are in series with the capacitance terminal on the top end of the coil, because the energy has to flow from the coil to the terminal and back again in order to resonate, and that's where the highest potential is. But I could never hold the bulb in my hand and light it from the top terminal, because the capacitance of my body would throw the coil completely out of resonance, and so in order to do that I would need to retune it to work while my body is connected to it.

On the other hand, when there's a larger capacitance on the ground end of the coil, which includes the primary and its inductance and the capacitance of the circuit etc, the coil is tuned to its natural resonant frequency, and so there's no amount of capacitance that I can add that would affect its resonant frequency, so I can easily hold the bulb to the terminal and light it in my hand without having to retune the coil, because I'm taking the output from the end that ALREADY has the bigger capacity, and the coil is already tuned to output energy. The free end is doing what it's supposed to do - remaining free to resonate with the maximum potential, and the ground end is outputting the energy.

So I would say that for these reasons, your bulb is brighter at one end than the other. If the primary was placed along the centre of the coil, then assuming everything is mirrored, then the bulb should be equally bright (or not) at both ends.

Is your device grounded?--as in,do you have a ground spike driven into the ground,that is connected to the negative side of your circuit.


Brad
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: TeslaScientific on July 07, 2017, 06:28:08 PM
Is your device grounded?--as in,do you have a ground spike driven into the ground,that is connected to the negative side of your circuit.


Brad

It depends on the experiment. It's not earthed when it's used as a single wire source in specific situations, but it must be earthed to transmit.
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: gotoluc on July 22, 2017, 07:21:14 AM
Hi everyone,

I've been fortunate to obtain an original TinselKoil made by TinselKoala himself

The below is the first test video of many to come.
I have come up with what I believe to be an accurate input power measurement circuit and an estimated output power comparative method which is (for now) visually done.

Link to video: https://youtu.be/vPpgHSN9jPc (https://youtu.be/vPpgHSN9jPc)

Regards

Luc
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: woopy on July 24, 2017, 09:26:53 AM
Hi everyone,

I've been fortunate to obtain an original TinselKoil made by TinselKoala himself

The below is the first test video of many to come.
I have come up with what I believe to be an accurate input power measurement circuit and an estimated output power comparative method which is (for now) visually done.

Link to video: https://youtu.be/vPpgHSN9jPc (https://youtu.be/vPpgHSN9jPc)

many thank's Luc and TK

really intersting first results

Iam looking forward for the next video

Laurent

Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: Magluvin on July 24, 2017, 07:46:05 PM
Hi everyone,

I've been fortunate to obtain an original TinselKoil made by TinselKoala himself

The below is the first test video of many to come.
I have come up with what I believe to be an accurate input power measurement circuit and an estimated output power comparative method which is (for now) visually done.

Link to video: https://youtu.be/vPpgHSN9jPc (https://youtu.be/vPpgHSN9jPc)

Regards

Luc


Very cool. 

So then probably the next step would be to add more receivers around the transmitter and see what happens. Would the transmitter start to show loading on its input? Would a second receiver take away from the first or would 8 of them light up just as much as 1 at the same distance?

Could the receiver get a third receiver going, while the 1st receiver is driven from the transmitter? Put the 2nd receiver on the opposite side of the first receiver, all 3 inline, transmitter, 1st receiver then second receiver.

Mags
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: woopy on July 25, 2017, 02:22:22 PM
Hi Luc

I have seen at minute 8.50 in your video, that you have already prepared a separated bulb on the table.
 
Did you try the original experiment of TK and connect the bulb between the ground and one of the battery terminal (+or- ) to see the difference between the battery receiver (if it is a receiver and if it works at such big distance) and the second coil receiver.

Thank's

Laurent
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: gotoluc on July 25, 2017, 04:13:40 PM

Very cool. 

So then probably the next step would be to add more receivers around the transmitter and see what happens. Would the transmitter start to show loading on its input? Would a second receiver take away from the first or would 8 of them light up just as much as 1 at the same distance?

Could the receiver get a third receiver going, while the 1st receiver is driven from the transmitter? Put the 2nd receiver on the opposite side of the first receiver, all 3 inline, transmitter, 1st receiver then second receiver.

Mags


Thanks Mags


Yes, that next step is exactly what I did!... but since the transmitting Tesla coil was getting hot probably due to the high resistance of the 33 AWG wire used, I decided to wind 3 new identical coils using 24 AWG wire. So one transmitter and two receivers at opposite sides. I did the test yesterday and unfortunately the power is divided when I connect the second receiver coil but the input power consumption is much less then my first video demo but not OU.


I'll do an update video in the next few days to demonstrate the differences


Regards


Luc
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: gotoluc on July 25, 2017, 04:26:37 PM
Hi Luc

I have seen at minute 8.50 in your video, that you have already prepared a separated bulb on the table.
 
Did you try the original experiment of TK and connect the bulb between the ground and one of the battery terminal (+or- ) to see the difference between the battery receiver (if it is a receiver and if it works at such big distance) and the second coil receiver.

Thank's

Laurent

Bonjour Laurent,

I had the bulb ready but forgot to demonstrate it in the video demo. If I hold the bulb with my fingers and touch a battery terminal the bulb lights dimly (about half) but lights brighter if I touch the circuit side. So the circuit reflection still makes it back to the batteries (through distance and filter network) probably through the wires but a little less then what TinselKoala demonstrated.
The receiver coil bulbs also dim when I connect the bulb to the batteries and the current goes up as well.

Regards

Luc
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: woopy on July 25, 2017, 11:02:11 PM
hi Luc

yes it seems that this energy can travel everywhere , through wires  , capacitors ,   measuring instrument ......and air .....and perhaps other materials.

What about installing a wood plate ( or any other material )  shield between the emitter coil and the receiver coil when you have the best distance efficiency to see if it affect the results ?

Laurent
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: Magluvin on July 26, 2017, 06:10:16 AM
I just built a subwoofer box to test a speaker that Pioneer makes ans it has an unusually high sensitivity level(96db@1w and my sub box program when all the other parameters are plugged in reveals 97db) compared to just about every subwoofer out there, and at least in the price range. Ebay $85   TS-W3003d4

It is a ported enclosure tuned to 25hz. In car you can hear almost to 15hz. It can handle a clean 1kw, claim is 800w and on the bench im giving it 150w per 4ohm coil.

Testing in the shop, 1000sq ft at 45hz the ceiling tile frames make a lot of noise. At 25-28hz the large garage door rattles and you can feel the vibration of the door.

So Im thinking on the same lines. If I were to have 10 garage doors that basically are resonating at the same freq, would they all be just as noisy and would they all have the same vibration level as the one door I have? Or, would adding the doors reduce the pressures on the first door and we get less and less as we add them. My shop is 50x20ft and the sub is in the middle of the shop length but nearer to on side wall. Im pretty sure there wouldnt be any increase in input if there were more doors added, but Im kind of betting on adding doors would affect the amount of energy they each would receive as they simply have to have an affect on the pressures in the outer perimeter of where the doors would be, as in those large panels at resonance must be affecting the other doors in a negative way since they would all be in phase.

It is very possible that sound waves in air are going to be different than the electromagnetic waves you are displaying. But Im working on a small scale with a 6.5in woofer ported to a low freq and see if I make a duplicate box without a speaker to see if the driver affects the passive box and at what if any output can possibly enhance the sound.  Like if I built the speaker drive box in the middle of 8 duplicates with all ports in the same side of the structure.

Anyway, can hardly wait to see your results as it will be very interesting. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: gotoluc on July 26, 2017, 05:17:17 PM
Hey Mags,

I also think along the same lines with acoustics as sound engineering (recording) was a hobby of mine in the past.

Lets say we have 10 identical acoustic guitars that are identically tuned and place them in a circle. Pluck one string of one guitar and all the other 9 guitars will vibrate the same.
Do the other 9 guitars dampen the first one so they can all vibrate?... I don't think so! as long as they are all identically tuned which is not an easy feat with wood grain variation of each acoustic chamber. Maybe it could be done with a plastic molded Guitar like the Ovation?

Anyways, I'm still trying to perfect the circuits losses. Hope to have something better to show soon.

BTW, I don't think I would agree that one could fully hear a low frequency of a speaker producing 20Hz let alone 15Hz inside a car. There's just not enough distance from the speakers to the listener for this to happen. Have a look at the chart of frequency wavelength distance needed in a room.

"Quote" and chart from: https://www.acousticfields.com/wavelengths-in-our-rooms/ (https://www.acousticfields.com/wavelengths-in-our-rooms/)
"If we use 20 Hz. as our frequency, we take the speed of sound 1130 ft./sec. and divide it by 20. Our answer is 56.5 ft. This means that a 20 Hz. wave has a wavelength of 56.5′. How does this 20 Hz. or 56.5′ wave fit into our home theater, listening, or professional recording studio?"

Kind regards

Luc
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: TinselKoala on July 26, 2017, 07:49:31 PM
You don't actually need a real 20 Hz signal in order to _hear_ a 20 Hz tone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_fundamental
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: Magluvin on July 26, 2017, 08:37:03 PM


BTW, I don't think I would agree that one could fully hear a low frequency of a speaker producing 20Hz let alone 15Hz inside a car. There's just not enough distance from the speakers to the listener for this to happen. Have a look at the chart of frequency wavelength distance needed in a room.

"Quote" and chart from: https://www.acousticfields.com/wavelengths-in-our-rooms/ (https://www.acousticfields.com/wavelengths-in-our-rooms/)
"If we use 20 Hz. as our frequency, we take the speed of sound 1130 ft./sec. and divide it by 20. Our answer is 56.5 ft. This means that a 20 Hz. wave has a wavelength of 56.5′. How does this 20 Hz. or 56.5′ wave fit into our home theater, listening, or professional recording studio?"

Kind regards

Luc

Actually there were some systems in older corvettes that you could hear down to 10hz. Of which is highly unnecessary. There is definitely a lot of tracks with content in the 20hz range that most never get to experience unless they are in a movie theater or have a home/ car system that is designed to do so.

In a room, larger than a car or suv, the best placement for a sub is in the corner, and the worst is on the middle of the room. From the corner the wave can only propagate outward from that corner. As you move the sub around the room the waves off of different walls can create nodes in the room where you can get the full effect here, but close to nothing there, and freq will affect where the nodes and nulls are.  Similarly in the car say even an suv, it is best to have the sub all the way in the back, where if it were in the middle of the vehicle, some of the wave travels forward and back thus reducing what you hear up front due to that loss of the wave toward the back. Been doin this for a long time.



Mostly I was exclaiming that is that most ported subs are tuned around 30 to even 49hz. The cutoff below the tuning freq is steep 24db per octave and tuned to 30 the port is way out of phase with the speaker mostly canceling out around 20 and below. Thats why they make adjustable subsonic filters as to  not waste power moving the speaker for nothing. But I like those lows so I like to tune low so there is a gain in that area.  And, below 80 hz, the db level gains gradually up to 12b at 20hz in a car compared to the graphs a box design prog would show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cwOyqHi7kU

Mags
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: gotoluc on July 26, 2017, 09:53:40 PM
I agree that a car or home system can be designed to produce 20Hz or lower but if you don't have the distance from the speakers then you're not truly hearing it, you're feeling it along with the air displacement caused by your secondary enclosure (car) as demonstrated in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4LNeh3htyQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4LNeh3htyQ)

Ever noticed that you hear a better deep subsonic sounds (not feel) when you're further away from one of these mussel sound cars.

Regards

Luc
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: woopy on July 26, 2017, 10:42:58 PM

Hi everyone

are we on track with the sound propagation ?

Is any similarity or analogy with what happen around the Tinselcoil and if yes please explanation.

Laurent
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: gotoluc on July 26, 2017, 10:54:45 PM
Hi everyone

are we on track with the sound propagation ?

Is any similarity or analogy with what happen around the Tinselcoil and if yes please explanation.

Laurent


We're only hopping that sound resonance can be similar to electrical resonance.
I'm still making different coil sizes (geometry) to try and find the ideal power transfer from transmitter to receiver without input power increase.


Regards


Luc
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: Magluvin on July 27, 2017, 09:52:32 AM
Yes in a way, when in the car you are in the box. But different factors determine what you hear in the car and what you hear outside.

A guy came to the shop in an older extended cap 2 door truck and his bass was wrecking hovoc in the shop from outside. He came in and we were asking what he had in there. 2 12s and a long 2kw amp. The box was full width of the cab and on the floor with the subs facing up behind the front seats. He said yeah its loud. Only on the outside. I got in and sure enough the inside was nothing compared to outside.  So I told him to flip the box upside down and use 3in spacers on the ends to raise it up about 3in from the floor. He said ok.

Came back the next day and the truck didnt shake the shop as it did the day before, but inside it was crazy loud. So just that adjustment to the system and it changed the way the sound propagated like 180deg

If you look into transmission line speaker boxes, and understand them, then this should be a good example. Just turning the box upside down gave us some transmission line effect. If he had gone all the way and made a large transmission line enclosure, the bass would have been even stupider, in a good way. ;D

I get what you are saying with the wavelength, but I dont see that in all cases. Like I made this ported sub box to test the pioneer sub. 3cuft and tuned to 25hz with a 15in long 4in dia port.  Nowhere in that enclosure from the back of the sub to the output of the port is there a length of even 1/4 wavelength at 25hz. Then use a 10in sub with a 3in port and that distance is shorter, but still can be resonant at 25hz.   

As I said earlier, the in car response increases gradually from 80hz down to 20hz up to 12db gain. That corvette that 10hz could be heard acted like a horn from rear to the front. It was a Car Audio magazine that printed the article. I believe it was 2 8in subs. Long time ago. It was their speaker n sub test car for many years.

If it is loud enough, we can hear below 20hz.. Like if you have heard the deepest of thunder, try to replicate that on most home systems. For me it is hardly a replication, unless the system is set up to be able to do it.

Mags

Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: Magluvin on July 27, 2017, 11:47:25 AM
Hi everyone

are we on track with the sound propagation ?

Is any similarity or analogy with what happen around the Tinselcoil and if yes please explanation.

Laurent

Hey Woopy

I think there are differences as in how air temp affects sound and such.

Here is an interesting fact...

If a speaker is playing frequencies that the wavelength(or I think its half wavelength, was a while ago and will look it up again) is shorter than the speakers diameter, it will have a beaming effect on axis of the driver. like a pair of 6.5in speakers with separate tweeters and passive crossovers, will be usually crossed over around 3khz and some 8in need to be crossed over between 1.5khz and 2khz to avoid the beaming effect.   So a sound laser can be had of sorts. You can try this with a speaker and play a higher freq than the diam allowance and get your head right in front of the driver then move off axis and compare to lower freq. If we had an ultrasonic transducer large enough in dia, or even better mounted to a very stiff flat panel, like carbon fiber, we could demonstrate some fascinating beaming effects.

So it may be possible to not lose a lot of the sound pressure from the driver box to the receiver box if positioned optimally.

Mags

Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: gotoluc on July 27, 2017, 03:54:22 PM

Hey Mags, that's the best picture I've seen to date on an T-Line enclosure design that solves part of the low frequency wavelength issues.
Looks like these would give an extra 12 feet of room space but not practical in a car ???

The below pic would be more space saving for a car.

Interesting stuff

Luc
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: Magluvin on July 27, 2017, 04:31:24 PM
Yeah. I just had shown that as a CRAZY example. 

I havnt built one yet. Have known of them for a long time. Ill have to give it a go one day.

The 3cuft sub box I built is a test box. Next test box is the same size and dimensions but it is a dual chamber reflex where the 3 cu is divided into 2cu and 1cu with 3 of the same size and length ports, one out of each chamber and 1 between each chamber. You tune it by calc the whole box 3cu and 2 ports, then divide the chambers and make all 3 ports the same length. So if I tune it to 25hz, it will also ring at 50hz, giving me a 6 db advantage at 50hz. Thats a lot of db. Takes 4 times the power to gain 6db. So hopefully it sounds good as it is a no brainer for going loud at low cost vs other systems. We are going to compete in daytona last weekend in march 2018 Spring Break Nationals.

Mags
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: gotoluc on July 28, 2017, 11:09:58 PM
Hi everyone,

I've made some improvements to the TinselKoil circuit which has reduced the input power by close to half from the original demo.
Wound 3 new secondary TC of lower resistance (used 24 AWG instead of 33 AWG) which has helped in the most part (on transmitter) to lower the input power.
The other 2 identical (red) TC you'll see in the video were made to test the effect of adding multiple output loads on identically made and tuned TC to see if the bulb intensity reduces which it did by half.
So I decided to wind coils that I use to experiment with Resonance so 8 years ago. Once I found the correct balance between inductance and air capacitance I'm able to add a second load with no effect to the first load and the input current.
I think I can keep adding loads if the coil geometry, inductance, capacitance and load are identical. However, the problem now is I only have 2 identical variable air capacitors. It won't even work with a different make of air capacitor (which I have and tested) even if I tune it to the identical capacitance value.
I've also had no success in substituting the air capacitor with a regular capacitor of identical PF value.
So to further test the results of adding more loads to see how far it can go I'll have to try and make my own variable air capacitors.

Had to remove the Ferrite bead on the DC input power line as it got really hot, probably because of the new resonant frequency being 1.14MHz compared to the previous 750kHz.
If I hold (with my fingers) a 7w 120vac night light bulb and connect to the battery terminal the bulb fully lights but input current increases (no free lunch there)

Here's the update video: https://youtu.be/5HD6bvzexBc (https://youtu.be/5HD6bvzexBc)

Regards

Luc
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: gotoluc on July 29, 2017, 04:56:28 PM
Hi everyone,

I accidentally deleted the above test 2 video and can no longer edit my post, so here is the replacement link: https://youtu.be/kndYHIHSAE8 (https://youtu.be/kndYHIHSAE8)
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: woopy on July 29, 2017, 11:49:22 PM
Hi Luc

so a lot of work winding those long coil.

How do you wind them , because i wound mine by hand and it took so much boring time?

And anyway fantastic results, i have just dismanteled a vintage radio and got out the variable air capacitor which is 2 time 30 up to 500 PF, and will try to tune a coil receiver for my little Tesla coil.

Very intersting stuff there

Keep up the good work

Laurent
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: gotoluc on July 30, 2017, 04:01:02 PM
Hi Laurent

All the coils are hand wound for now. Once I know what I want and need to make many I'll build a mechanical winder.

Don't take too many old radios apart just for this, since once I've find a substitute for the variable air capacitor I'll post a video demo.

Maybe in a few days I'll make a video demo of how I test and tune these pickup coils.

Regards

Luc
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: gotoluc on July 31, 2017, 08:09:04 PM
Hi everyone,


Still moving forward with the same ideal of trying to add as many tuned receiver circuits as I can.


Here's an update video demo: https://youtu.be/oAGGE8NHii0


Regards


Luc
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: gotoluc on July 31, 2017, 08:58:02 PM
FYI a Q & A from the OUR forum

Hi Luc,

nice demo,   it looks to me though that the both secondaries are nowhere near the same resonance frequency as the primary coil.
You can peak them with the variable caps, but they seem to be at its minimum, so probably you need more inductance on the coils to have them resonate at the 1.14Mhz.

You could try to find out the resonance frequency by using a FG and scope and put them somehow in the same 1.14Mhz range.

Why any other same valued cap does not produce the same results is beyond me, but i can ask my "mystery woman" overhere that, allthough i doubt she is allowed to tell the answer  (http://www.overunityresearch.com/Smileys/Alive/cheesy.gif (http://www.overunityresearch.com/Smileys/Alive/cheesy.gif))

Regards Itsu


My reply
Hi Itsu

Thanks for your post.

Yes, I first test and calibrate the receiver coils with my FG while monitoring power (csr & voltage probes) using scope math. I also have a 3rd probe connected to a sensing coil to measure field strength. 
I tune the inductance and capacitance obviously to achieve resonance but don't stop there. I keep tuning the inductance and capacitance to achieve maximum field strength with minimum power while keeping it at 1.135MHz.
Takes a while to get right but once it's done you'll find the Inductance is around 400uH and the capacitance is around 45pf.

As for why it's working better with the Air Capacitor may be due to the fact I did not use a collector plate antenna on me first 2 test videos.
Test 3 video now have them and maybe now I can use a regular capacitor but I don't think I have anything that small on hand that can handle the voltage.

Regards

Luc
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: gotoluc on August 01, 2017, 01:33:50 AM
Hi everyone,

one more video update that solves the need for a Variable Air Capacitor.
I can now make as many as I want for next to no cost.

Link to video: https://youtu.be/qR1HN0GZ4IQ (https://youtu.be/qR1HN0GZ4IQ)

Luc
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: woopy on August 01, 2017, 12:40:11 PM
Hi everyone,

one more video update that solves the need for a Variable Air Capacitor.
I can now make as many as I want for next to no cost.

Link to video: https://youtu.be/qR1HN0GZ4IQ (https://youtu.be/qR1HN0GZ4IQ)

Luc

Hi Luc

fantastic work thank's for sharing all the tips.

I think that for replication, it will be necessary to build the Tinselcoil circuit (modified Steve ward micro sstc ), because with the small tuning antenna on the TC4420, you are showing that the secondary can be totally disconnected from the circuit and directly connected to the ground.

So with this solid state circuit, it seems that you get a kind of "real" Teslacoil, but without the spark gap .

Yes i think you are also showing that  the Tesla transmission will soon  revive

Bravo

Laurent

PS
 if we could get the shematic of the TK's modified Ward's circuit with components value , it would be great
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: gotoluc on August 02, 2017, 10:21:23 PM
Hi Woopy

Here's the circuit TK used: https://www.stevehv.4hv.org/SSTC6/microSSTCschematic2.JPG (https://www.stevehv.4hv.org/SSTC6/microSSTCschematic2.JPG)

TK says, the main difference is that he did not use the FWB and transformer power supply from mains. He also put in a few extra decoupling capacitors for the 555 and the 4420.
Anyone with the necessary experience to work with this circuit will know where to put those extra caps.
Also, a warning that he cannot be held responsible for any injuries or damage due to the use of this apparatus.

That's all I have

Luc
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: woopy on August 02, 2017, 10:55:29 PM
Hi Woopy

Here's the circuit TK used: https://www.stevehv.4hv.org/SSTC6/microSSTCschematic2.JPG (https://www.stevehv.4hv.org/SSTC6/microSSTCschematic2.JPG)

TK says, the main difference is that he did not use the FWB and transformer power supply from mains. He also put in a few extra decoupling capacitors for the 555 and the 4420.
Anyone with the necessary experience to work with this circuit will know where to put those extra caps.
Also, a warning that he cannot be held responsible for any injuries or damage due to the use of this apparatus.

That's all I have

Hi Luc

Yes i already have this circuit, so no special modification

But one of my question is ,

As IMO you have really made a  big change by disconnecting the secondary's  "base" from the circuit by connecting it directly to the ground , can you please check if you also can suppress the 0.001uF 2kv capacitor across the mosfet (better said the  tuning cap between L1 and L2)

And just for fun, in this forum and others ,we are trying to get better knowledge for ourself and sharing with other AT OUR OWN RISK, so nobody can be taken responsible for what he can share on a public forum, (so far there is no contractual selling), so no worry at all.

Thank's

Laurent

Luc
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: gotoluc on August 03, 2017, 01:40:29 AM
one of my question is ,

As IMO you have really made a  big change by disconnecting the secondary's  "base" from the circuit by connecting it directly to the ground , can you please check if you also can suppress the 0.001uF 2kv capacitor across the mosfet (better said the  tuning cap between L1 and L2)


Yes Laurent, I can disconnect 0.001uF 2kv capacitor across the mosfet and the circuit still runs fine but uses about 35% more current. However, it's transmitting more power.
Not sure if it transmits 35% more. That's too difficult to measure at this time.

Hope this helps

Luc
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: woopy on August 04, 2017, 12:40:17 AM

Yes Laurent, I can disconnect 0.001uF 2kv capacitor across the mosfet and the circuit still runs fine but uses about 35% more current. However, it's transmitting more power.
Not sure if it transmits 35% more. That's too difficult to measure at this time.

Hope this helps

Luc

So it seems that you are certainly on a real pure Tesla coil system, i mean total "physical (electrical) desolidarisation"  of the exiting circuit  and the " secondary free circuit "

fantastic

 are we always in an  induction (or capacitive ) "connection ", which should  follow antropy's  laws or not ??

Laurent


Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: gotoluc on August 04, 2017, 03:06:48 PM
are we always in an  induction (or capacitive ) "connection ", which should  follow antropy's  laws or not ??

Laurent


I'm no expert on this but you may want to consider TinselKoala's quote "I think this is a capacitive E-field coupling system, not primarily electromagnetic-inductive"

Regards


Luc
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: woopy on August 04, 2017, 06:31:48 PM

I'm no expert on this but you may want to consider TinselKoala's quote "I think this is a capacitive E-field coupling system, not primarily electromagnetic-inductive"

Regards


Luc

Hi Luc and all

I have ordered the TC4420 and some components for replication of the "Tinseluc coil"

Now we are back at the main thema of this thread !

I have to say that this capacitive E-field coupling is not intuitive at all to me. I here this words since long ago, but i never seen a clear explanation of this system, and how can real energy (current and voltage) be conducted or transferred through this vector.

I would be so glad to improve my knowledge in so a fantastic phenomena

Thank's for your patience

Laurent



-
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: Void on August 04, 2017, 07:02:45 PM

I have to say that this capacitive E-field coupling is not intuitive at all to me. I here this words since long ago, but i never seen a clear explanation of this system, and how can real energy (current and voltage) be conducted or transferred through this vector.

Hi Woopy. I haven't read through this thread, but I am attaching a quick sketch of a simple
example of E-Field coupling using tesla coils. Basically E-field coupling just means that the coupling between
two parts of an AC circuit is (primarily) through the electric field. The simplest example is an ordinary capacitor, which for example
can couple energy from an AC driver circuit to a load via the E-field between the capacitor's two plates.
Anywhere where you are coupling AC signals using capacitor plates of any shape and form, would be E-Field coupling.

In my attached sketch, assume the tesla coils TC1 and TC2 are far enough apart that the magnetic field surrounding
TC1 does not significantly induce any currents in TC2. If the two capacitor top spheres or plates for the two tesla
coils are close enough together to provide enough capacitance, the lightbulb connected to TC2 will light up.
Power is being transferred from TC1 to TC2 by the capacitor effect, i.e., by E-field coupling. So, E-field coupling
just means that the primary mode of coupling is just like the way a capacitor works in AC circuits.
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: woopy on August 04, 2017, 10:57:46 PM
Hi Woopy. I haven't read through this thread, but I am attaching a quick sketch of a simple
example of E-Field coupling using tesla coils. Basically E-field coupling just means that the coupling between
two parts of an AC circuit is (primarily) through the electric field. The simplest example is an ordinary capacitor, which for example
can couple energy from an AC driver circuit to a load via the E-field between the capacitor's two plates.
Anywhere where you are coupling AC signals using capacitor plates of any shape and form, would be E-Field coupling.

In my attached sketch, assume the tesla coils TC1 and TC2 are far enough apart that the magnetic field surrounding
TC1 does not significantly induce any currents in TC2. If the two capacitor top spheres or plates for the two tesla
coils are close enough together to provide enough capacitance, the lightbulb connected to TC2 will light up.
Power is being transferred from TC1 to TC2 by the capacitor effect, i.e., by E-field coupling. So, E-field coupling
just means that the primary mode of coupling is just like the way a capacitor works in AC circuits.

Hi Void

Thank's very much for your very good explanation

I have to say that i am always amazed by how a capacitor is supposed to work ?? This stay very unintuitve to me but the fact is that  it works , and very well.

But so far i see when the energy is passed through a capacitor (due to E-field effect) , there is always and normally ,    lost due to antropy as per a normal circuitery.

Each component of any circuit consume some energy or better said . it  adds some lost in efficiency.

But GOTOLUC shows in his videos  that :

1- he has a Tinseluc  coil that is idling at about 20 watts

2- by adding a component ,which is the receiver coil, he  can light arround 3 watts without increasing the input power of the idling Tinseluc circuit

3- that by adding more load , not only he can get some output more light, but it seems that the input power of the Tinseluc coil goes somehow down ?????

so my question what about the antropy in this very specific "capacitive coupling" ?

Thank's for your interest

Laurent

Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: forest on August 04, 2017, 11:05:06 PM
The question is : can it be loaded more then idle 20W ?
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: woopy on August 04, 2017, 11:22:40 PM
The question is : can it be loaded more then idle 20W ?

good question Forest

and if   the answer is " yes we can "  ???????????

good night at all ;)

Laurent
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: endlessoceans on August 05, 2017, 12:11:57 AM
Hi Woopy. I haven't read through this thread, but I am attaching a quick sketch of a simple
example of E-Field coupling using tesla coils. Basically E-field coupling just means that the coupling between
two parts of an AC circuit is (primarily) through the electric field. The simplest example is an ordinary capacitor, which for example
can couple energy from an AC driver circuit to a load via the E-field between the capacitor's two plates.
Anywhere where you are coupling AC signals using capacitor plates of any shape and form, would be E-Field coupling.

In my attached sketch, assume the tesla coils TC1 and TC2 are far enough apart that the magnetic field surrounding
TC1 does not significantly induce any currents in TC2. If the two capacitor top spheres or plates for the two tesla
coils are close enough together to provide enough capacitance, the lightbulb connected to TC2 will light up.
Power is being transferred from TC1 to TC2 by the capacitor effect, i.e., by E-field coupling. So, E-field coupling
just means that the primary mode of coupling is just like the way a capacitor works in AC circuits.

Excellent and accurate post
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: endlessoceans on August 05, 2017, 12:13:51 AM
The question is : can it be loaded more then idle 20W ?


NO  In this particular setup you will be lucky to get even 70% back from what has been sent in.
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: Void on August 05, 2017, 02:00:22 AM
But GOTOLUC shows in his videos  that :
1- he has a Tinseluc  coil that is idling at about 20 watts
2- by adding a component ,which is the receiver coil, he  can light arround 3 watts without increasing the input power of the idling Tinseluc circuit
3- that by adding more load , not only he can get some output more light, but it seems that the input power of the Tinseluc coil goes somehow down ?????
so my question what about the antropy in this very specific "capacitive coupling" ?

Hi Woopy. Before you add the receiver coil, all of the 20W is being dissipated in the
transmitter coil circuitry. When you add a receiver coil circuit, some of that 20W is now being
dissipated in the receiver coil circuitry. If you make circuit changes to the receiver coil assembly,
for example using different coil winding ratios or by changing the load attached to the receiver coil,
etc., more and more of that 20W may be transferred to the receiver coil and to its connected load.

When you make changes to the receiver coil or its connected load, it changes the overall impedance
of the receiver assembly as seen by the transmitter coil circuit, and this can cause less loading to be seen
by the transmitter driver circuitry, so the power consumption of the transmitter driver circuitry can drop, even though
the load on the receiver may be dissipating more power than before you made your receiver circuit change. 
This is all to do with impedance changes seen by different stages in the overall setup.

Yes, as others mentioned, what really matters in regards to OU testing is if you are able to transfer
more power to the load than you are supplying at the input to the whole setup. :)
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: Rfacts on August 05, 2017, 12:01:24 PM
Gotoluc:
Greatly appreciate your efforts and your willingness to share your findings, there is a lot to learn from this experimental work.  Since you were able to switch your power source from batteries to a power
supply, if not already checked it may be good to confirm that the (+) and (-) output of your Sky TPOWER STP6005 DC power supply is isolated from ground for high frequency feedback.  I've experienced
problems with this type of power supply but different model, I experienced a shorted 56nF 100V poly film capacitor which was connected between the power supply circuit and chassis ground.

Woopy:
I think you focused important attention to the significance of electrically disconnecting the L2 secondary from the L1 primary circuit in reference to Steve Ward's Micro SSTC Rev 2.0 schematic.  This
modification alone should make the L1 primary and the L2 secondary an electrically isolated transformer.  I think I understood your train of thought in your Reply #66, is this what you meant by "physical
(electrical) desolidarisation"?
   
TeslaScientific:
Appreciate that you made some very interesting points to consider and which I think help to better understand the operation of the Tesla magnifying transformer especially the info you included in your
Reply #34.  The role that the capacitance at each end of the coil plays and the effect on the standing wave is very interesting and not often mentioned.  For myself and others who may be interested in
better understanding the various operating principles of the TMT in more detail, what do you consider to be the best books or links on this subject?
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: TeslaScientific on August 11, 2017, 08:11:30 PM
TeslaScientific:
Appreciate that you made some very interesting points to consider and which I think help to better understand the operation of the Tesla magnifying transformer especially the info you included in your
Reply #34.  The role that the capacitance at each end of the coil plays and the effect on the standing wave is very interesting and not often mentioned.  For myself and others who may be interested in
better understanding the various operating principles of the TMT in more detail, what do you consider to be the best books or links on this subject?

I'm glad you found it useful! There are a few books listed here along with a couple of informative videos by Eric Dollard: http://www.teslascientific.com/references/

As well as the articles already posted here. The Crystal Radio Initiative by Eric Dollard probably offers the best practical explanation and examples: http://www.emediapress.com/go.php?offer=teslasci&pid=61

The point of it is to prove Tesla right in the most simple way possible by using a normal crystal radio receiver and a Tesla receiver tuned to a local(ish) AM radio station in order to compare the amount of power that's received through the air versus the earth, and to measure the difference in the propagation velocity between the overground and underground signals. Radiated (through the air) energy is governed by the inverse square law and travels at the speed of light (in a vacuum); the power at any distance from the transmitter is the power at source times 1/distance squared, so if you have more power than that at the receiver and it gets there before the overground signal, well... Perhaps they should have listened to Tesla in the beginning  ;)

The basic principles of radio and Tesla's system are all the same and the same coils can be used for the Crystal Radio Initiative as in your own experiments, however, if you start transmitting on the same frequency as the radio station then expect visitors, so different coils should be built if you want to transmit. To that end, the amateur radio frequencies are ideal because they allow for legal transmission if you have a license, and if all experimenters are using the same frequency (1860 kc) then an experimental Tesla world system will become a reality.
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: Rfacts on August 14, 2017, 10:11:25 PM
TeslaScientific:
Thanks, appreciate the links to books and informative videos that you provided.
Title: Re: what happens between a teslacoil the battery the incadescent bulb and the ground
Post by: DrJones on August 18, 2017, 02:37:26 PM
   VERY interesting progress! 
I'm looking forward to update videos from Tinsel Koala, Luc and Woopy - keep up the good work!