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Author Topic: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)  (Read 12259 times)

Offline verpies

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2017, 10:40:40 PM »
Do you not get more current if you move a magnet across a coil faster?
You do not - you only get more voltage (emf) if the coil is not ideal and not perfectly closed.
...and if the coil is ideal and closed, then voltage cannot be even measured across it.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline verpies

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2017, 10:43:00 PM »
I always liked Don Smith's "watt second" for a current measurement.
But "Watt Second" is a Joule - a measure of energy (not current).


Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2017, 11:40:53 PM »
Hi all, Hi pfrattali, have you built something that hints at this or could you share what specific devices that were actually built, that you feel are exhibiting this idea, thanks.
I ask, because I'm working on improving the efficiency of a boost circuit i have, joule thief style, i have so far been able to equal and slightly exceed the efficiency of a 600 watt boost converter i bought from bang good.
I'm wondering if using an air coil might give higher efficiency, as it would certainly fit the criteria of higher frequency.
https://www.banggood.com/DC-DC-600W-10-60V-to-12-80V-Boost-Converter-Step-up-Module-Power-Supply-p-1041640.html?rmmds=buy
It says up to 95% efficiency.
peace love light

Offline pfrattali

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2017, 02:52:39 PM »
But "Watt Second" is a Joule - a measure of energy (not current).


How do you define current if you don't consider it energy?  Isn't 'horsepower' considered energy?

Let me ask you something. Do you consider the Kapanadze circuit a scam?


Offline memoryman

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2017, 03:41:31 PM »
"How do you define current if you don't consider it energy?  Isn't 'horsepower' considered energy?" all units have been defined.
Wikipedia gives excellent definitions. Learn them, but don't try to change them.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2017, 03:41:31 PM »
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Offline verpies

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2017, 01:50:27 AM »
How do you define current if you don't consider it energy?
Electric current is the amount of charge moving per unit of time, e.g. 1 Ampere = 1 Coulomb per 1 Second.

Isn't 'horsepower' considered energy?
No, it is power.  In SI units 1 metric Horsepower is equal to 735.5 Watts. 1 Watt is equal to 1 Joule per 1 Second.
The Joule is the SI unit of energy and work.

Let me ask you something. Do you consider the Kapanadze circuit a scam?
I don't know - his presentations do not provide sufficient measurement data to make that determination.
I am a physicist - not a psychologist.

Offline tinman

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2017, 02:05:30 PM »
You do not - you only get more voltage (emf) if the coil is not ideal and not perfectly closed.
...and if the coil is ideal and closed, then voltage cannot be even measured across it.

I have to disagree with your first  statement verpies,and question the second.

Question-Do you not get more current if you move a magnet across a coil faster?

Quote
You do not - you only get more voltage (emf) if the coil is not ideal and not perfectly closed.

As you have stated in your answer-if the coil is not ideal,and not perfectly closed,must mean that there is a load across that coil(not perfectly closed=partially closed) that has a resistance value to it,along with the resistance of the !non ideal! coil it self.
In order to increase the voltage across any resistance(the non ideal coil,and the resistance between the !not perfectly closed!coil ends),the current must also increase.

So,the answer to pfrattali's question is yes,the faster a magnet is passed across a coil or inductor,that is non ideal,and not !perfectly! closed,the higher the value of current that is produced.

Second-and if the coil is ideal and closed, then voltage cannot be even measured across it

Dose this mean a voltage(potential difference) dose not exist. Being ideal,and without resistance,would seem to indicate that a voltage(potential difference) dose not/could not exist.

As a potential difference must exist in order for current to flow,dose this mean that the existing current within an ideal coil has no flow?

Lets look at the picture below,where we have an ideal coil shorted(looped).
If we pass a magnet across that coil,will a current then !flow! within that coil?,and will the coil it self then produce a magnetic field like that of a PM ?
If it dose have a current flowing through it,explain how it dose this without a potential difference that is needed in order to have a flow of current.


Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2017, 02:05:30 PM »
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Offline verpies

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2017, 05:32:11 PM »
I have to disagree with your first statement verpies,
I am surprised because you seemed to have argued the opposite in this thread.

I already had debates on this BASIC subject and I am tired of repeating them.
e.g. I already had this debate with the most difficult opponent (MarkE) here and I eventually won it here (including experimental confirmation).
Please read these links and reply to me if you still want to continue the debate about this subject in this thread.

...and question the second.
Quote
Question-Do you not get more current if you move a magnet across a coil faster?
My answer is still "no". The induced current depends on ΔΦ (a change of flux penetrating a coil) not on the speed of that change (or "rate of change") as denoted by dΦ/dt.

As you have stated in your answer
Quote
if the coil is not ideal,and not perfectly closed
,must mean that there is a load across that coil(not perfectly closed=partially closed) that has a resistance value to it,along with the resistance of the !non ideal! coil it self.
Yes

In order to increase the voltage across any resistance (the non ideal coil,and the resistance between the !not perfectly closed!coil ends),the current must also increase.
Ah!, but you are forgetting that any induced current, that is allowed to flow by this resistance/conductance, opposes the change of the magnetic flux penetrating that coil. This opposition tends to maintain the total flux level and in the extreme case (the ideal shorted coil) that maintenance is absolute and the level of flux penetrating the coil remains constant. See this video.

If it wasn't so, then you could increase the current circulating in an ideal coil ad infinitum, by repeatedly quickly removing a magnet from it and slowly inserting it back...as illustrated by this absurd machine.

All off these paradoxes arise in people's minds because they insist on analyzing coils with voltage, despite coils being current devices and current sources.
The proper approach to analysis is to start with ideal components first and add the imperfections later.

The concept of current caused by voltage (Ohm's law i=V/R) is not always useful and blindly following it can lead you down the garden path.  Analysis of currents induced in inductors, subjected to changing external flux, is a perfect example of this.  More about that is written here.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 11:13:31 PM by verpies »

Offline antijon

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2017, 02:33:28 PM »
Have to say Verpies, I disagreed with you as well, at first.

Basically, you're saying that, for a given coil and magnet, there's going to be a max current that cannot increase based on the rate of change. Only the EMF increases because it's related to current over resistance in a given time.

Like you said, using ohms law is like putting the cart before the horse, and it leads to confusion.

Offline tinman

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2017, 02:40:54 PM »
I am surprised because you seemed to have argued the opposite in this thread.

I already had debates on this BASIC subject and I am tired of repeating them.
e.g. I already had this debate with the most difficult opponent (MarkE) here and I eventually won it here (including experimental confirmation).
Please read these links and reply to me if you still want to continue the debate about this subject in this thread.

My answer is still "no". The induced current depends on ΔΦ (a change of flux penetrating a coil) not on the speed of that change (or "rate of change") as denoted by dΦ/dt.
,must mean that there is a load across that coil(not perfectly closed=partially closed) that has a resistance value to it,along with the resistance of the !non ideal! coil it self.

Yes
Ah!, but you are forgetting that any induced current, that is allowed to flow by this resistance/conductance, opposes the change of the magnetic flux penetrating that coil. This opposition tends to maintain the total flux level and in the extreme case (the ideal shorted coil) that maintenance is absolute and the level of flux penetrating the coil remains constant. See this video.

If it wasn't so, then you could increase the current circulating in an ideal coil ad infinitum, by repeatedly quickly removing a magnet from it and slowly inserting it back...as illustrated by this absurd machine.

All off these paradoxes arise in people's minds because they insist on analyzing coils with voltage, despite coils being current devices and current sources.
The proper approach to analysis is to start with ideal components first and add the imperfections later.

The concept of current caused by voltage (Ohm's law i=V/R) is not always useful and blindly following it can lead you down the garden path.  Analysis of currents induced in inductors, subjected to changing external flux, is a perfect example of this.  More about that is written here.

The links you provided,are in regards to withdrawing a magnet from a super conductive ring,and not passing a magnet across a non ideal coil,with a non ideal load attached to it-as per the original question -Quote: Do you not get more current if you move a magnet across a coil faster?

The answer to this question is -yes,you do get more current flowing from the coil,through the load,if a magnet is moved passed the coil faster. The faster the rate of change of the magnetic field,the more current is produced from that coil. This test can be carried out with a single turn coil,and results confirmed.

In regards to SC coils,then my answer remains as it was back in the MHs ideal coil thread,and i see also backed up by MarkE-where was he when i needed him?. I see that you also agree with this-i believe?,in that,when a voltage is dropped across an ideal coil,the BEMF will be equal and opposite to the applied EMF?-the action will have an equal and opposite reaction.

An ideal voltage source has no internal resistance,and the ideal coil also has no resistance,and so,when the ideal voltage source is dropped across the ideal coil,there is no resistance within the loop. There is also the fact that the ideal coil produces an ideal BEMF,and there for,the ideal voltage source was just dropped across an ideal short.
Any change that the ideal voltage source tried to make to the ideal coil,was met with an equal and opposite change.

So my answer remains the same--an extreme current void of voltage,as the loop(ideal voltage source,and ideal coil)has no resistance,and a voltage cannot be measured at any point in an ideal loop.

If we have an ideal coil that is shorted(it's two ends joined together),and you withdrew a PM from it's center,is there any two points within that coil that you could measure a voltage?--but yet we know a current would be flowing.

In your SC ring example,where you withdraw the magnet from the center of the ring,would indicate to me that the SC ring is not SC,or the magnet is weak in strength. If it were in fact SC,then you would not be able to remove the magnet from the ring,as every action would be met with an equal and opposite reaction,where in, any attempt to withdraw the magnet,would see the magnetic field produced by the SC ring push back just as hard as you are pulling on the magnet. Only when the total strength of the two magnetic fields combined is exceeded,would you be able to pull the magnet from the SC ring--we are assuming a very strong PM here.

But in regards to a real coil,then i stand by what i say,and the faster the rate of change of the magnetic field,the greater the value of current flowing from that coil,to the load.

It is also true that the greater the flux depth,or field strength through that coil,while the rate of change remains constant,the greater the current flow through the coil to the load also.


Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2017, 02:40:54 PM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2017, 05:02:10 PM »
I guess my view is messed up :)

1V through 1 Ohm is 1 Amp
1V @ 1A for 1 second is 1 Coulomb = 1J
10V @ 0.1A for 1.0 second is 1 Coulomb = 1J
10V @ 1.0A for 0.1 second is 1 Coulomb = 1J but in 0.1 seconds,, so then there needs to be 10 cycles to get to 1 second so you would have 10J per second.
1V @ 10A for 1 second is 10 Coulombs = 10J

Analogy,

A water pump that displaces 1 gallon per cycle.

Cycle it 1 time per minute = 1GPM
Cycle it 10 times per minute = 10GPM but each cycle of the pump still only displaces 1 gallon.

1 gallon of flux change displaces 1 gallon of charge.

To me current is quantity of charge.

Offline citfta

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2017, 06:17:05 PM »
I am going to attempt to clarify some of the confusion about coils and generating current.  I may only make more confusion, but I hope not.  I am pretty sure almost all of you have used or maybe even worked on gasoline or petrol powered portable generators.  If you have been paying attention you will have noted that the engine runs at a fixed speed to produce the voltage required.  The governor of the engine controls the speed.  If you put more load on the generator the governor opens the throttle to keep the speed up to maintain the required voltage.  From this action we can deduce the following:

Voltage is a function of the speed of the magnets passing the coil.  Current is determined by the load and the ability of the driving force to maintain the speed of the magnets passing the coil or coils.  For a fixed speed the voltage will remain the same within reason of course unless we create a very low resistance or a short.  Current will of course increase with an increase in speed but only because the increased speed increased the voltage.


Offline webby1

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2017, 07:05:40 PM »
I am going to attempt to clarify some of the confusion about coils and generating current.

Here is the problem,, to me I am not confused,, I may interchange terms incorrectly but I do not feel like I am confused.

If, however, I am confused but don't know it,,  ????  well then my testbed would not do what it does predictably so I guess I am at least not totally confused :)

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2017, 07:28:21 PM »
I am going to attempt to clarify some of the confusion about coils and generating current.  I may only make more confusion, but I hope not.  I am pretty sure almost all of you have used or maybe even worked on gasoline or petrol powered portable generators.  If you have been paying attention you will have noted that the engine runs at a fixed speed to produce the voltage required.  The governor of the engine controls the speed.  If you put more load on the generator the governor opens the throttle to keep the speed up to maintain the required voltage.  From this action we can deduce the following:

Voltage is a function of the speed of the magnets passing the coil.  Current is determined by the load and the ability of the driving force to maintain the speed of the magnets passing the coil or coils.  For a fixed speed the voltage will remain the same within reason of course unless we create a very low resistance or a short.  Current will of course increase with an increase in speed but only because the increased speed increased the voltage.

I dont like the idea of using ideal components to prove things. I find them mostly to be problematic and people like to make special rules for each component, bla bla.

But as for the speed of a magnet across a coil and the voltage out varying with the speed, well it does.  But is it the speed itself or is it the speed of the field change over time?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyU0H_kJLxQ&t=313s

The field density around the magnet does not increase or decrease with just moving the magnet. it is the time it takes for the field change from no field, to max field, back to no field that determines the voltage potential out of the coil.  But that is not to say that field cutting the conductor is not the lever that moves the electrons. I havnt seen a plausible explanation otherwise, yet. Im a field cutter believer kinda guy. ;D

I visualize electrons of an open coil in say an ac gen to be compressed from one end of the winding to the other as the rotating magnet field affects the coil. 

Like if I have a neon transformer with its high number of turns secondary, in order for there to be even a beginning of a spark across the output, there needs to be a very high neg charge on one lead and a very hi pos charge on the other lead. That means there is a crap load of electrons cramped into one end of the secondary and a large depletion of electrons at the other end of the winding before the spark can make the jump.  Just a little ramble on that.

Now, a generator is different than a transformer when it comes to mutual induction. The generators turning fields are not cutting the windings at the same speed at different rpms. But say we have a toroid with the primary on the left and the sec on the right 1 to 1 ratio. If we apply input of 10vac to the primary, what would the sec output be if the ac were 20khz and then 30khz?  The same? 10vac?  If the gen is running at 1000rpm, what is the output at 800rpm in comparison?

The transformer primary field jumps across the core like light speed no matter the freq of the change, quite different than the fields being 'dragged' through output windings of a gen at different rpms.

So we have to look at them differently I think.

lol. If we pulsed the field coil of a car alternator instead of regulating it with dc, would there be output without the rotor turning? And would there be any difference in that output if we do turn the alternator while pulsing the fields coil?

Mags


Offline tinman

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2017, 12:55:45 PM »
I guess my view is messed up :)

1V through 1 Ohm is 1 Amp
1V @ 1A for 1 second is 1 Coulomb = 1J
10V @ 0.1A for 1.0 second is 1 Coulomb = 1J
10V @ 1.0A for 0.1 second is 1 Coulomb = 1J but in 0.1 seconds,, so then there needs to be 10 cycles to get to 1 second so you would have 10J per second.
1V @ 10A for 1 second is 10 Coulombs = 10J

Analogy,

A water pump that displaces 1 gallon per cycle.

Cycle it 1 time per minute = 1GPM
Cycle it 10 times per minute = 10GPM but each cycle of the pump still only displaces 1 gallon.

1 gallon of flux change displaces 1 gallon of charge.


To me current is quantity of charge.

That is different,as each cycle has a limit,where as a magnet passing an inductor dose not,where in that limit can be increased with the rate of change of the magnetic field.

Your analogy would be like having a current limiter on the output of the coil.

There is a very easy DUT that can show an increase in current flow and volume with an increase in the rate of change of the magnetic field.
This is using only a single pass across the coil,where only the speed at which the magnet passes the coil shows an increase in both current value and volume.

I am half way through building the DUT,and will post my result's here when im done,by way of a video-along with the DUT schematic.


Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2017, 12:55:45 PM »

 

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