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Author Topic: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)  (Read 16509 times)

Offline pfrattali

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It's so simple. There's nothing magical about it. There's no 'zero point energy from the vacuum' that you tap into. That's some
'woo woo' explanation.

Let me explain:

Faraday's Law states:
 "The magnitude of the induced EMF in a conductor is directly proportional the rate of change of magnetic flux through the conductor."

Read this over and over and over until it hits you. The 'conductor' is a simple wire or a coil of wire. EMF is basically current.


The main process of how we get electricity into our homes is using generators. A generator, to put it basically, is magnetic flux lines
moving across coils. The magnet moves and coils are stationary, or visa versa; the coils move and the magnets are stationary. Either way the common process is magnetic flux lines cutting through coils, thus induction of current. The electrons in the copper wire of the coil are moved, excited, whatever you want to call it, and produce current.

Now, you can say the same for an electromagnet. By inducing a current into an electromagnet (a coil wound around an iron core), you produce a magnetic field similar to a permanent magnet. That magnetic field has flux lines just like a permanent magnet. The full size of the magnetic field does not appear instantly as you apply current to the coil. Picture blowing up a balloon. The edge of the balloon represents one of the flux lines. As you blow up the balloon, the edge of the ballo0n moves outward from within. Thus, the same way you put current into a coil, the flux lines created when the current produces an electromagnet expand outward and you have moving flux lines. Remember, the key to getting electricity is flux lines cutting through coil.  If you understand how Alternating Current through a transformer works, you will easier understand this.

Now, one step further. If you apply and remove current to the electromagnet at high speed using pulsed DC current oscillation, guess what you get? Read Faraday's Law above, again.  A high "rate of change of magnetic flux through the conductor."

 "The magnitude of the induced EMF in a conductor is directly proportional the rate of change of magnetic flux through the conductor."

In other words, the faster you move those flux lines through coils, the higher the magnitude of induced Electromotive Force you get!

If you look at some of these Joule Thief circuits, you can get oscillations of 20,000 Hertz using a transistor and partnered coils. By pulsing DC current to one of the coils, you get a transformer like action with the other coil, inducing higher voltages and possibly higher amperage depending on how the coils are wound in relation to one another. At that frequency (20,000 Hz), imagine the speed of flux lines expanding and collapsing when you apply and remove current to the 'electromagnet'. Do you get the picture?

Finally, compare the frequency you get from your grid electricity: 50 or 60 Hertz. The flux lines of the generator magnet from your electric company are moving from North pole to South Pole and back is 60 times per second.

20,000 Hertz is 333 times greater than 60 Hertz. Think about it.








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Offline forest

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You still didn't explained it ;-) In simple terms : energy comes from magnetic field, the frequency is only a way to tap more or tap faster.


Why it isn't easy ? Because of the reaction ;-)

Offline forest

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It's like taking water with a sieve...

Offline verpies

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That's some 'woo woo' explanation.
I agree but your analysis is not much better.

EMF is basically current.
No, EMF is basically voltage

In other words, the faster you move those flux lines through coils, the higher the magnitude of induced Electromotive Force you get!
Yes, but higher EMF does not necessarily constitute higher energy.


The flux lines of the generator magnet from your electric company are moving from North pole to South Pole and back is 60 times per second.  20,000 Hertz is 333 times greater than 60 Hertz. Think about it.
So the induced EMF will be 333 times higher ...but how does that lead to overunity?
Voltage is not energy!

Offline seychelles

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THE WOO WOO BIT IS THE STUFF THAT MOVES DOWN THE POWER LINE IS
 WOO WOO IN ITSELF. SO A SO CALL GENERATOR IS NOT A GENERATOR ,
BECAUSE ENERGY CAN NOT BE GENERATED. SO THE WOO WOO MACHINE
IS AN ETHER PUMP.

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Offline forest

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The Inventor Explains It ~
Trying to avoid technical terms, difficult business for an engineer, Mr Perrigo explained his invention this way:
"The device is a generator as truly as the power-driven rotary generator in any power plant. Those generators don't actually 'make' electricity. They condense it from the air. So does the Perrigo. But it does it through the system of wiring, rather than revolutions through a magnetic field. I get my starting point from the air by breaking up the ether waves. The coils on the lead plates do that. I know why they do. It's the way they are connected, one from the other. That's my secret.
"They do break up the ether waves, gathering electricity and conducting it into the big coil underneath. That's the generator. Its size and the way it is wired determines the voltage, the horsepower. Outgoing wires from this coil take the 'juice' where you want it and it is there when you want it."


H.Perrigo

Offline Dansway

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@Forest

H. Perrigo device is truly fascinating.  All those little coils (10 X 10 Grid = 100 coils) acting as a very high Freq "resonate network".
Thought?

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Offline endlessoceans

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The Inventor Explains It ~
Trying to avoid technical terms, difficult business for an engineer, Mr Perrigo explained his invention this way:
"The device is a generator as truly as the power-driven rotary generator in any power plant. Those generators don't actually 'make' electricity. They condense it from the air. So does the Perrigo. But it does it through the system of wiring, rather than revolutions through a magnetic field. I get my starting point from the air by breaking up the ether waves. The coils on the lead plates do that. I know why they do. It's the way they are connected, one from the other. That's my secret.
"They do break up the ether waves, gathering electricity and conducting it into the big coil underneath. That's the generator. Its size and the way it is wired determines the voltage, the horsepower. Outgoing wires from this coil take the 'juice' where you want it and it is there when you want it."


H.Perrigo

Tito/Forest/Leonlogb (whatever name youre using today)

If youre going to try share something at least get your facts and history correct.  The only thing worse than an outright lie is bad science.  It helps nobody.

Perrigo was a known FRAUD.  Over a period of 15 years he took $40,000 US from investors and anyone that would part with money.  Engineers inspected his car and found a massive battery under the seat.  There were multiple failed demonstrations and whenever he was pushed for more info he would fake illness.

http://www.rexresearch.com/perrigo/perrig.htm


Offline forest

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I think Perrigo device is the same as Hubbard,Hendershot,Amman with slight modifications. All in the sam period of time. Somebody may be involved in spreading this info during those days...  ::)

Offline pfrattali

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I agree but your analysis is not much better.
No, EMF is basically voltage
Yes, but higher EMF does not necessarily constitute higher energy.
So the induced EMF will be 333 times higher ...but how does that lead to overunity?
Voltage is not energy!



You're right. My bad.  EMF is current.

All I'm saying though, is that the high frequency switching (on and off) in the tank circuit of the joule thief is enough to get more output energy than the energy put in.  The key is movement of flux lines across coils.  That's where I believe the real current is. The faster you move the flux lines, the more the rate of charge is flowing.

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Offline norman6538

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2017, 03:55:02 PM »
Current has a time factor so 20k cycles makes a lot of flux changes but
the  current has a time consideration.

I always liked Don Smith's "watt second" for a current measurement.
But somehow he advocated that the extra power came from the high cycles.
I never got that.

So using 1 watt to power a 60 cycle oscillator we do not get
60 watts out - we get  1 watt but only for 1/60 second but for 60 cycles.


Norman



Norman

Offline verpies

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2017, 05:19:20 PM »
...the high frequency switching (on and off) in the tank circuit of the joule thief is enough to get more output energy than the energy put in.
The Joule Thief is essentially a boost converter.
It steps up voltage at the cost of current.
It does not step up energy regardless of the switching frequency.

The key is movement of flux lines across coils.  That's where I believe the real current is.
The "movement of flux lines across coils" is commonly denoted as ΔΦ (a change of flux penetrating a coil).  The speed of that change (or "rate of change") is commonly denoted as dΦ/dt.

The voltage induced across an open coil depends on dΦ/dt but the current induced in a closed ideal coil does not depend on dΦ/dt.

The faster you move the flux lines, the more the rate of charge is flowing.
"Rate of charge" is not a valid phrase for communication.  Did you mean the "charge's rate of change" or "charge per time"?
If yes, then Coulombs per Second are simply Amperes - a measure of electric current.

In any case, the current induced in a closed ideal coil does not depend on dΦ/dt, it depends only on ΔΦ.

Offline pfrattali

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2017, 08:12:27 PM »
Current has a time factor so 20k cycles makes a lot of flux changes but
the  current has a time consideration.

I always liked Don Smith's "watt second" for a current measurement.
But somehow he advocated that the extra power came from the high cycles.
I never got that.

So using 1 watt to power a 60 cycle oscillator we do not get
60 watts out - we get  1 watt but only for 1/60 second but for 60 cycles.





Norman



Norman


This is what I'm trying to get across.
The high cycles means that the movement of flux lines (expanding and collapsing) is faster.

Do you not get more current if you move a magnet across a coil faster?
If I were to spin a generator twice as fast, wouldn't I get twice the current?

Offline forest

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2017, 08:37:52 PM »
you are close but sill far far from overunity
ok, fine here it is
verpies is 100% correct - it's the amount of flux what matters
or rather how to move it without paying like having a free lunch  :P
or rather which flux
or both
it depends
in one case frequency is important like Don Smith said
in other case flux is more important like Figuera said
 :P


Offline forest

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2017, 08:39:27 PM »
I'm starting to talk like Tito did, but I'm not Tito
you will know the answer
it's easy
WHICH
or HOW

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2017, 08:39:27 PM »

 

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