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Author Topic: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)  (Read 15579 times)

Offline webby1

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2017, 02:08:40 PM »
Remember the change in time when you do that.

Ask yourself is it more "stuff" or is it the same "stuff" in less time making it look like more????

V*I*time in seconds.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline tinman

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2017, 02:53:40 PM »
Remember the change in time when you do that.

Ask yourself is it more "stuff" or is it the same "stuff" in less time making it look like more????

V*I*time in seconds.

It is more !stuff!.

We can change your pump setup to understand what happens when you increase the speed at which the magnet passes the coil,in order for it to produce more current,and deliver a greater volume of !stuff!

Lets say we have a paddle wheel type pump,and this wheel has just 1 scoop around it's circumference.

For 1 cycle-->
Let's say the scoop(bowl shaped scoop) is made from stretchy rubber.
Let's say that at 1 RPM,the scoop passes through the water,and at this speed the scoop  hold's 100ml of water,which it dumps into a trough at the top of the cycle.

Now for the next cycle,we increase the speed at which the scoop passes through the water,and dump's the water into the trough at the top of the cycle.
The speed is now 1 rev per 30 second's,but we maintain the one single cycle.
Your scoop is made from stretchy rubber,and because it now moves through the water faster,the volume of the scoop increases--due to it being stretchy.
The scoop stretches as it passes through the water,and now holds 150ml,which it dumps into the trough at the top of the cycle.

Each is one single cycle,but the cycle that has that greater rate of change through the water,is the one that delivers the greater volume of water to the trough.


Brad


Offline NoBull

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2017, 03:27:56 PM »
The links you provided,are in regards to withdrawing a magnet from a super conductive ring,and not passing a magnet across

It really does not matter how the external flux change is generated.  It does not matter if the magnet is being inserted into that ring or withdrawn from it or passed through it.  It does not matter if the magnet is moving parallely the ring's axis or perpendicularly to it (as when a magnet is "passing across"). 

Analyzing a half of the motion, as in just withdrawing instead inserting and withdrawing (passing through) does not change anything conceptually - it just changes the initial conditions of the analysis.

BTW: It also does not matter if the external flux change is generated by another coil (as in a transformer).  All that matters is that some external flux is pushed into the coil somehow.

a non ideal coil,with a non ideal load attached to it-as per the original question -Quote: Do you not get more current if you move a magnet across a coil faster?

The video by the same author shows what happens when that ring is not superconductive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUaqXk6axOo

The answer to this question is -yes,you do get more current flowing from the coil,through the load,if a magnet is moved passed the coil faster. The faster the rate of change of the magnetic field,the more current is produced from that coil. This test can be carried out with a single turn coil,and results confirmed.

Faraday's law of induction states that only a voltage across an open coil increases as dPhi/dt increases.
Any current that flows as a result of that voltage will oppose the change in flux that causes that voltage according to the Lenz Law. 
According only to Ohm's Law the induced current can grow without limit but when you add in the Lenz Law that limit becomes i=Phi/L.  That limit cannot be exceeded no matter how fast you move the magnet (no matter the dPhi/dt).

An ideal voltage source has no internal resistance,and the ideal coil also has no resistance,

But the coil stores and discharges energy as a current source - not a voltage source.
Capacitors store and discharge energy as a voltage source - not inductors.

In your SC ring example,where you withdraw the magnet from the center of the ring,would indicate to me that the SC ring is not SC,or the magnet is weak in strength. If it were in fact SC,then you would not be able to remove the magnet from the ring,as every action would be met with an equal and opposite reaction,where in, any attempt to withdraw the magnet,would see the magnetic field produced by the SC ring push back just as hard as you are pulling on the magnet.

You are wrong about this.  You seem to be conflating a change in magnetic flux with mechanical force while it is the gradient of the magnetic flux density that determines the force.
Notice that in the video linked below, the magnet is much smaller than the superconductive loop and that allow the flux lines to deform.  Also notice that the number of these flux lines penetrating the loop is ALWAYS THE SAME regardless of the position of the magnet.  These lines do get closer together (denser) at some times but their number stays the same.  It is the gradient in density of these lines that determines the mechanical force acting on the magnet - not the amount of lines.  Such is the difference between magnetic flux density and magnetic flux.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL4pfisCX14

Only when the total strength of the two magnetic fields combined is exceeded,would you be able to pull the magnet from the SC ring--we are assuming a very strong PM here.

No, you will be able to pull out (or insert) a magnet without any problems and without demagnetizing the magnet.  The lines of flux will bend and remain to maintain the total amount of lines constant, just like in that simulation..  That simulation by prof.Belcher is very accurate and the loop modeled in it is perfectly superconductive.

The only difference is whether the superconductive loop is "frozen" with the magnet inside it or without it.  These are called "initial conditions" when the loops becomes superconductive.

With non-superconductive coils everything works the same way except that the current is slowly dissipated in the resistance just like in an RL circuit.  In such situation it only matters whether the change in magnetic flux is able to generate the current much faster then the resistance can dissipate it as heat - think of a inflating balloon with a hole in it.

Offline tinman

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2017, 03:36:51 PM »
It really does not matter how the external flux change is generated.  It does not matter if the magnet is being inserted into that ring or withdrawn from it or passed through it.  It does not matter if the magnet is moving parallely the ring's axis or perpendicularly to it (as when a magnet is "passing across"). 

Analyzing a half of the motion, as in just withdrawing instead inserting and withdrawing (passing through) does not change anything conceptually - it just changes the initial conditions of the analysis.

BTW: It also does not matter if the external flux change is generated by another coil (as in a transformer).  All that matters is that some external flux is pushed into the coil somehow.

The video by the same author shows what happens when that ring is not superconductive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUaqXk6axOo

Faraday's law of induction states that only a voltage across an open coil increases as dPhi/dt increases.
Any current that flows as a result of that voltage will oppose the change in flux that causes that voltage according to the Lenz Law. 
According only to Ohm's Law the induced current can grow without limit but when you add in the Lenz Law that limit becomes i=Phi/L.  That limit cannot be exceeded no matter how fast you move the magnet (no matter the dPhi/dt).

But the coil stores and discharges energy as a current source - not a voltage source.
Capacitors store and discharge energy as a voltage source - not inductors.

You are wrong about this.  You seem to be conflating a change in magnetic flux with mechanical force while it is the gradient of the magnetic flux density that determines the force.
Notice that in the video linked below, the magnet is much smaller than the superconductive loop and that allow the flux lines to deform.  Also notice that the number of these flux lines penetrating the loop is ALWAYS THE SAME regardless of the position of the magnet.  These lines do get closer together (denser) at some times but their number stays the same.  It is the gradient in density of these lines that determines the mechanical force acting on the magnet - not the amount of lines.  Such is the difference between magnetic flux density and magnetic flux.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL4pfisCX14

No, you will be able to pull out (or insert) a magnet without any problems and without demagnetizing the magnet.  The lines of flux will bend and remain to maintain the total amount of lines constant, just like in that simulation..  That simulation by prof.Belcher is very accurate and the loop modeled in it is perfectly superconductive.

The only difference is whether the superconductive loop is "frozen" with the magnet inside it or without it.  These are called "initial conditions" when the loops becomes superconductive.

With non-superconductive coils everything works the same way except that the current is slowly dissipated in the resistance just like in an RL circuit.  In such case it is only a matter whether the change in magnetic flux is able to generate the current faster then the resistance can dissipate it as heat.

First off,the original question-->Do you not get more current if you move a magnet across a coil faster? We are assuming a load is placed across the coil/inductor.

My answer to this is yes,and verpies answer to this is no.

Second--there are no magnetic !lines! of flux,the field is like a fluid--no lines of flux,but one smooth field.


Brad


Offline webby1

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2017, 03:45:04 PM »
It is more !stuff!.

We can change your pump setup to understand what happens when you increase the speed at which the magnet passes the coil,in order for it to produce more current,and deliver a greater volume of !stuff!

Brad

The quantity of charge that is displaced external to the coil, dumped in the trough, is Amps*time in seconds,, 1 Amp for 1 second is the quantity of 1 Coulomb,, 6.242*10^18 electrons,, so for a fixed external resistance that quantity will stay the same per cycle.

I would tend to think that the stretchy bucket is like using a changing external resistance.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2017, 03:45:04 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2017, 04:03:25 PM »
The quantity of charge that is displaced external to the coil, dumped in the trough, is Amps*time in seconds,, 1 Amp for 1 second is the quantity of 1 Coulomb,, 6.242*10^18 electrons,, so for a fixed external resistance that quantity will stay the same per cycle.

I would tend to think that the stretchy bucket is like using a changing external resistance.

If we have a voltage potential of say 5 volt's,a current limit of say 10mA,and a cap of say 10000uF--what is the only way the cap could be charged to 4 volts quicker?.


Brad

Offline webby1

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2017, 05:35:13 PM »
Power,, increase the power at the cost of time,, decrease the time of each event means you need more events per given time period.

Now you are talking about the time to energy relationship which is power,, the energy stored within a capacitor is not dependent upon the time it takes to charge the capacitor.

IMHO Energy does nothing,, power makes things move,, that is energy used over some time period,, but I could be wrong.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2017, 05:35:13 PM »
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Offline memoryman

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2017, 06:39:06 PM »
"IMHO Energy does nothing,, power makes things move,, that is energy used over some time period,, but I could be wrong."
We are ultimately only interested in WORK;, which is not conservative.
WORK is done whenever ENERGY moves; potential ENERGY does not do WORK.

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2017, 07:01:59 PM »
"IMHO Energy does nothing,, power makes things move,, that is energy used over some time period,, but I could be wrong."
We are ultimately only interested in WORK;, which is not conservative.
WORK is done whenever ENERGY moves; potential ENERGY does not do WORK.


Well if you dont have any potential energy, then how will you do work? If you did not eat for 20 days, then you were required to replace the roof of a house, would the roof get done?
If so, then how?
If not then why?

Mags

Offline memoryman

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2017, 07:31:39 PM »
WORK is the result of kinetic energy, so to have WORK done, the potential has to change to kinetic.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2017, 07:31:39 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2017, 07:36:33 PM »


Second--there are no magnetic !lines! of flux,the field is like a fluid--no lines of flux,but one smooth field.


Brad

But how do we know this for sure? Any evidence?

There is no finite definition of what makes up a magnetic field.

I find that lines of force are a very logical explanation and seem to work well with understanding the field in practice. How does claiming it is a fluid help our understanding of how we use it?
How does claiming it as a fluid help our understanding of the difference between N and S polar identities and how they interact with other magnetic fields?

How do we know if the fluid idea that replaces the field lines theory isnt just made up so that we may never fully understand magnetic fields for what they really are?

There must be a mechanism that is the producer of the N and S polarities. Like gravity. If we look at a pool of water and we try to push a sealed bottle of air into the water, the water pushes back.  If we fill the bottle with water and have it submerged in the pool, then we pull it out of the water, it seems like the air is pushing it down.  The difference is that the pool is actually pushing back the air bottle, but it is gravity that is making it seem like the air is pushing down on the water bottle. In the end, it is gravity that is the single cause for each event.

So there must be some polarizing force. Just because we cant see lines of force, it isnt evidence that they do not exist. Can you see the fluid? ;)

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2017, 08:11:03 PM »
WORK is the result of kinetic energy, so to have WORK done, the potential has to change to kinetic.

Work to me is getting something done that has an intended purpose. Its not like we see a tornado tearing up the land and say, man, look at all the work being done! ;D

If we have a huge boulder on the edge of a cliff and we only need to remove a grain of sand to allow it to fall off the cliff, we have released potential energy. And if that boulder lands on another cliff below and is again teetering on edge, and we give it a little help off the cliff again, we have again released potential energy. In a way it is a controlled release like a clock mech.

If this boulder dropping is the desired effect, then carrying that boulder back up to the top cliff would entail actual work to get the desired effect. And if pushing the boulder off the cliff in the end does something of value, so called work, its not like it takes the amount of work to get it to the top AND the work being done as the boulder falls, all added up as the work required to get the job done. The work is in the lifting of the rock to store the potential to get the job done. After we do the work to get the rock up there, we dont have to release that potential. Thus the work is only to get the desired effect of getting the rock up there, for what ever reason.

The difference between power and energy is, if there is no energy, there can be no power. Energy is the potential source and power is the measured usage of that energy.

Mags


Offline memoryman

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2017, 08:19:27 PM »
WORK is a definition in physics; nature doesn't know or care whether you consider it useful. 'Useful' is an interpretation of 'what is'.
Energy is a scalar quantity; power is a vector quantity.
POWER is the rate at which work is performed or energy is converted.

Offline webby1

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2017, 08:22:13 PM »
"IMHO Energy does nothing,, power makes things move,, that is energy used over some time period,, but I could be wrong."
We are ultimately only interested in WORK;, which is not conservative.
WORK is done whenever ENERGY moves; potential ENERGY does not do WORK.

Energy "used" is not limited to any particular mode of using it,, so far it takes time to use energy,, energy and time make power.

Potential,, well cast your eyes above and see an endless supply of potential,,,, right???  The trick is in figuring out how you can use it.

Now to figure out how to convert all that potential energy into useful WORK :)


Offline memoryman

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2017, 08:26:30 PM »
We are 'working' on that.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2017, 08:26:30 PM »

 

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