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Author Topic: Replication of Mini Radiant Exciter circuit of Nelson Rocha  (Read 7319 times)

Offline Zephir

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Replication of Mini Radiant Exciter circuit of Nelson Rocha
« on: April 22, 2017, 05:26:19 AM »
This thread is the backup of thread N.R.M.R.E. An investigation, which is locked from posting. Mr. Nelson Rocha from Portugal is currently building a Radiant collector box a he is currently the only succesfull designer of free energy device at overunity.com. He kindly provided a scheme and videos (1 2 3 4 5 6 7) of his few prototypes of smaller device, so-called  Mini Radiant Exciter circuit. He accepts donations for his research's by paypal by PayPal account. This scheme has been redrawn by @itsu and @Dog-One and it has been partially replicated by @Dog-One and @TinselKoala (video).

According Nelson Rocha his effect is managed by a "parametric oscillator that regulate how stronger is the pulses applied to a coil and the frequency used". The parametric oscillators are important part of ferrorezonance and many overunity circuits. The general idea is, the energy stored within coil or transformer is proportional the current and the momentary inductance of coil. At the case of ferrite coil, this inductance can be tuned in wide range with magnetic field, which may or may not come from that coil, i.e. which can be of external origin - so it can change independently like the adjustable parameter of circuit (from this its "parametric" denomination follows).

As you can see at the picture bellow, the toroid core of Mr. Rocha is stuffed with smaller axial coil, the winding of which remains oriented perpendicularly to the winding of toroid transformer. Those who know the theory of coils probably know, that these two coils have very little chance to affect each other with voltage induced: the magnetic field of torus remains closed into itself and the magnetic field of smaller coil remains perpendicular to the toroidal one. Therefore, once the current inside the axial coil changes, then only magnetic saturation of toroidal coil can change - but no back EMF and current can be induced into it and no electric energy can get wasted within the circuit.

If the Mr. Nelson Rocha's device works as I think it works, then the toroid coil gets energized when the axial coil is switched on. Its current and magnetic field saturates the ferrite within torus in such a way, its inductance remains low. Therefore low energy is actually required for raising current through toroidal coil during this period. Once the current through coil reaches its maximum, then the current inside axial coil gets switched off and the magnetic permeability of ferrite spontaneously increases, because the thermal fluctuations within material have no other option, than to reorient its magnetic domains randomly. This is spontaneous entropic process and it usually wastes energy, but in this sneaky arrangement it raises the energy of coil instead. How?

We shouldn't forget, that the toroid coil is already passed with high current from previous half of cycle, therefore the increasing permeability increases the inductance of coil and energy of magnetic flux under current given and this energy is provided with quantum fluctuations of vacuum "for free". The transformer gets charged into account of thermal fluctuations: the power returned by current back into circuit during its discharge will be higher than the power used for its charging, because its inductance modulated with axial coil will be also lower during charging of transformer than during its discharging.

Note that the current passing through small axial coil must be relatively high for to achieve saturation of both cores. There undoubtedly exist better but more complex arrangements of ferrite cores, which close magnetic circuits of both coils more consequentially. But because the axial coil is small and wound with short thick wire, its energy loses also remain low. Anyway this explains, why the circuit goes into "berserk mode" just above certain level of input power, because the saturation curve of ferrites is not linear. This saturation can be helped with additional magnet embedded into a magnetic circuit - which is the trick, which for example 2SGen of J.L. Naudin or MEG of Thomas Bearden are using.

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Offline Zephir

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Re: Replication of Mini Radiant Exciter circuit of Nelson Rocha
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2017, 05:30:53 AM »
The current situation is, two replicators already posted their replicas here, which is great - but these replicas don't correspond the Nelson Rocha's circuits and they omitted detail (IMO crucial, actually working principle) - which has been also neglected in all previous (equally clueless) posts  about Nelson Rocha's device. Both SunDog's, both TinkelKoala's replicas don't contain wire passing through toroid coil with compare to Nelson Rocha's diagram and/or replicas - so I don't want to repeat the same mistake here again. As a theorist I'd recommend to check first, how the parametric oscillator behaves with respect to overunity.

We should therefore attach some sufficiently large toroidal coil at the board and to torture it with well defined voltage pulses from generator under oscilloscope. This toroid coil should be stuffed with another coil according to Nelson Rocha's prototype, which will be loaded with the same pulses - only delayed by phase for to prove my theorem, that the saturation of ferrite by external magnetic field during main pulse affects the BEMF energy, returned with main coil into circuit after pulse. I.e. to attempt to isolate and demonstrate the overunity effect, which Nelson Rocha's circuit is POSSIBLY based on. If we would have it done and this principle will be working, then the wiring of the rest of circuit may be relatively easy.

The hard-core builders can indeed still attempt for replication and reviving Nelson's Rocha circuit from scratch - but its difficult to support such an attempts with advices at distance, until we don't know, what the experimenter is actually doing. Such a complex circuit may behave like the black box and we're predestined to find its working point only by trial&error approach. And I can not still guarantee, that the circuit schemes presented in this thread really correspond the Nelson Rocha's originals from his videos. The first approach seems to be a less risky strategy for me.

The generic problem with builders at overunity.com is, they have rather tendency to replicate circuits as a whole and to solve technical details (choice of components and so on). They're explorative and opened to improvisation without strict adherence on some theory of circuit function. And vice-versa: the theorists usually don't bother with practical details and tinkering. They don't want to wait for complete replicas - but to analyze principle of function on parts of circuit first. Now we have a chance to promote cooperation of both types of people - or to continue in existing modus vivendi of this forum, which contains mixture of theoretical proposals and builder threads - both equally clueless and arguably unsuccessful for last twenty years.

The problem of this collaborative mode is, the theorists are essentially expected to tell, what the builders should exactly do - which may or may not be palatable for members, who already gained social credit with their attempts for replication here.

Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: Replication of Mini Radiant Exciter circuit of Nelson Rocha
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2017, 11:38:34 AM »


The problem of this collaborative mode is, the theorists are essentially expected to tell, what the builders should exactly do - which may or may not be palatable for members, who already gained social credit with their attempts for replication here.

Like I already told many times ;
Most of people are not interested in hard work , but instead want "baby food" in their own mouth ...  Myself lose 2 years only study some aspects of  that circuit , and see people already give up just because some Illustrious persons, Pout ..... In general i think this is a lost case. When happens such behavior's,  i could only say that is a  waste of TIME to everyone!

 
Nelson Rocha

Offline Vortex1

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Re: Replication of Mini Radiant Exciter circuit of Nelson Rocha
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2017, 03:43:24 PM »
The following is respectfully submitted:

Mr Nelson Rocha has priorly stated that his devices work by a parametric oscillator circuit.

This was quoted by Mr. Zephir in the other thread.

Mr. Zephir seems to have identified one possible means of parametric oscillator control via axial inductor within toroidal inductor possibly for use in controlling saturation of the toroidal inductor.

From here out it is simple. Mr Rocha needs to state one of two things:

!) Yes, this parametric oscillator via saturation control of toroidal inductor is one key part of the operation of my device.

2) No, saturation control via axial inductor within toroidal inductor is a visual error and assumption therefore, not part of the operation of my parametric oscillator.

Hopefully, in the interest of good scientific inquiry and procedure, Mr Rocha will answer this simple yes / no question. That would be helpful. If we do not hear from Mr. Rocha, that would be unfortunate but not in any way stopping progress.

Regards
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 05:52:31 PM by Vortex1 »

Offline AlienGrey

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Re: Replication of Mini Radiant Exciter circuit of Nelson Rocha
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2017, 04:13:45 PM »
Decided to withdraw from this thread !

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Re: Replication of Mini Radiant Exciter circuit of Nelson Rocha
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2017, 04:13:45 PM »
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Offline Zephir

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Re: Replication of Mini Radiant Exciter circuit of Nelson Rocha
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2017, 04:54:32 PM »
Quote from: Nelson Rocha
Myself lose 2 years only study some aspects of  that circuit , and see people already give up just because some Illustrious persons

I hope it's clear for everyone, that superficial misleading replicas have no chance to success in the same way, like none ones. What worse, bad replicas are source of misinterpretation for future, people are spreading wrong schemes all around the web and they're getting unmotivated by lack of success of their replicators. This in its consequences gets worse, than the complete lack of replicas. The bad replicas therefore serve as an important tool of propaganda for various agents and trolls, who are driving away people from free energy research, because layman people (quite correctly) tend to believe the experimenters more, than the people who are just speculating (in both positive, both negative way).

The attempts for replications are indeed welcomed, but in this board I would to want to discourage people in asking: "And what did you actually do?" - especially the people, who also never did show any attempts for replication and who are themselves only waiting, what the other people will do for them. Such a posts are off topic, aggressively personal and subjective, they don't contribute to positive atmosphere of forum - and as such they will be deleted soon or later. Thank you for understanding in advance.

Offline Zephir

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Re: Replication of Mini Radiant Exciter circuit of Nelson Rocha
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2017, 05:13:00 PM »
Quote
When happens such behavior's,  i could only say that is a  waste of TIME to everyone!

What I can see is, your parametric oscillator circuit has many things in common with another free energy devices (like the MEG of Thomas Bearden, Steorn Orbo and others) - so I do consider it as a sorta prototype of these devices. In addition, I like its particular construction composed of ferrite rod inserted into toroidal coil. There are many similar constructions of parametric oscillators on the web, like the MEG mentioned above or this one linked bellow. But these constructions also induce back electromotive force into main magnetic circuit - so I consider your geometry very smart and definitely worth the replication. I'll personally start experiments just with this arrangement.

In addition, the parametric oscillators work with nonlinearity of magnetization curve of ferrite in similar way, like the transistors are based on nonlinear response of base. And similarly to transistors, their working point can be adjusted with DC bias, i.e. with magnetization by attaching of permanent magnet. This magnetization will save the energy for feedback loop and it could improve the efficiency of the circuit in very simple way.

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Re: Replication of Mini Radiant Exciter circuit of Nelson Rocha
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2017, 05:13:00 PM »
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Offline Vortex1

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Re: Replication of Mini Radiant Exciter circuit of Nelson Rocha
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2017, 06:12:01 PM »
Dear Mr. Zephir


Quote
The attempts for replications are indeed welcomed, but in this board I would to want to discourage people in asking: "And what did you actually do?" - especially the people, who also never did show any attempts for replication and who are themselves only waiting, what the other people will do for them. Such a posts are off topic, aggressively personal and subjective, they don't contribute to positive atmosphere of forum - and as such they will be deleted soon or later. Thank you for understanding in advance.


In light of this would you like that I remove post #3, which I will do posthaste at your desire.

By the way, I am a builder / theorist, but have chosen not to clutter your or anybody's thread with my builds until I have something significant worth demonstrating. I am not a replicator in the cargo-cult sentimentality, nor do I seek social approval on forums.

I have taken the time to properly draw he schematic according to common engineering practice, so that it's operation is more easily understood to those skilled in the profession, and to include the components internal to the TIP121, which are necessary for proper understanding of the parasitic oscillation tendency of the design. Also included in the schematic is the control axial core as an option for discussion. 

I will post the schematic only if it would be a help.

My only reservation with your hypothesis of the saturable core control is that the axial member is having not enough coupling to be very effective to modify the saturation of the toroidal core, as it is very different from the picture you posted in your reply #6 IMG_3331.jpg. Nevertheless, it is the leading hypothesis and worthy of further investigation.

Regards
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 06:45:28 PM by Zephir »

Offline Zephir

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Re: Replication of Mini Radiant Exciter circuit of Nelson Rocha
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2017, 06:46:12 PM »
Quote
the axial member is having not enough coupling to be very effective to modify the saturation of the toroidal core, as it is very different
Actually in one of his devices Nelson Rocha replaced the tiny ferrite coil with single wire threaded through toroid core. I don't think it's "visual error", as he also drew it explicitly in his diagram and he also utilized it in at least one additional prototype. Without it his remark of "parametric circuit" would also have no meaning.

In general, the overunity phenomena are anomalous and they should also utilize some anomalous configurations, which are nowhere used in classical circuits - or they would be already revealed. The only anomaly in Nelson Rocha's circuit I can see is just the ferrite coil embedded into toroid coil. Such an arrangement has no meaning from classical physics perspective, because these two coils shouldn't affect each other (very much). Many overunity circuits (MEG and others) also reduce coupling of coils by maintaining the air gaps between parts of magnetic circuits, because their purpose is to only affect magnetization - but not to induce back electromotoric force mutually. Some inventors even recommend to carefully adjust the size of air gap for to optimize the balance of these two effects. In classical circuits the air gap is used for to avoid the current runaway during saturation (current breaker safety of transformer in welders) of for storing energy during the primary switch on-time (flyback transformers).

I also agree with you, that the single wire shouldn't affect the (saturation of) toroid too much, until it will not transfer some very fast spikes of high intensity - but it's the only clue I have in this moment. Nelson Rocha repeatedly denied the overunity function of his Mini Radiant Exciter circuit - so I think, its construction may be suboptimal being a prototype - and in this respect the usage of single wire instead of coil is still understandable. I also noted, that the Darlington TR1/Q1 isn't actually protected from negative voltage spikes to base (passing through C4 capacitor and R1 trimmer). The PN junction of base electrode must be very narrow for to enable carriers drift and high amplification and therefore its reverse voltage remains limited to only few volts. The diode D2/D5 protects only electrolyte capacitors but not base.

So it's possible at the end, that the main purpose of coil/wire embedded into main torrid coil is actually just to protect the base of TR1 transistor against negative spikes and it has no meaning in alleged "parametric oscillator" function. Of course it would be much simpler, if Mr. Rocha would confirm it himself - but we have to respect his attitude. I can understand that he wants to enforce people in replications of his circuit rather than borrowing it as it is.

Other than that, your diagram of Nelson Rocha's circuit will be indeed useful for everyone here and as such heartily welcomed.

Offline Dog-One

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Re: Replication of Mini Radiant Exciter circuit of Nelson Rocha
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2017, 08:59:01 PM »
The only anomaly in Nelson Rocha's circuit I can see is just the ferrite coil embedded into toroid coil.

I'm surprised Zephir, I thought you were more observant than that.

So you completely missed the large wire-wound resistor.  Do you not think it
odd for a circuit powering a few LEDs that Nelson would have chosen such
a device unless there was a specific purpose?

Certainly you are aware these type of resistors are wound in a bucking coil
configuration.  Chris Sykes spent thousands of hours attempting to explain
the significance of such an arrangement.


Or maybe I'm wrong and Nelson just used it because it was the only resistor
he had with the correct value of Ohms...

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Re: Replication of Mini Radiant Exciter circuit of Nelson Rocha
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2017, 08:59:01 PM »
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Offline Zephir

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Re: Replication of Mini Radiant Exciter circuit of Nelson Rocha
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2017, 09:14:34 PM »
Quote
So you completely missed the large wire-wound resistor.. Certainly you are aware these type of resistors are wound in a bucking coil configuration.

You know, you can be ingenious as you want - but there will be always some 4-years old Asian kid at YouTube, which would handle it better.. :-) And these really smart kids have their overunity device in the kitchen already. So that thank you for your remark: I'm fond of bucking coils, but I would need to get familiar with this type of resistors more. I already dismantled/broke few of them, but they always contained just a single coil. Also, these resistors usually have high resistance and energy loses, as they weren't designed to serve as a component of resonance circuits: their resistance would probably beat the effects of their inductance. Could you link the NelsonRocha's resistor from some catalogue? It should have at least three legs, if your theory is correct. Also this resistor should be present in another NelsonRocha's circuits.

Offline Vortex1

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Re: Replication of Mini Radiant Exciter circuit of Nelson Rocha
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2017, 09:43:54 PM »
The circuit as it stands is a basic blocking oscillator (aka JT) with a high gain Darlington in place of the standard single transistor used in such circuits. Due to the high gain of the TIP122, the circuit may be very prone to several parasitic oscillation points depending on the bias and other factors.

The use of the 4700 pF capacitor on the secondary of the saturating transformer T2 partially rings the secondary making it somewhat resonant.

I have redrawn the original N Rocha circuit that includes the components inside the TIP122 and the possible saturable biasing core of Zephir's hypothesis.

Here is the first draft, drawn with conventional input on left, output on right, rails at top and bottom for ease of reading.

Since the bridge rectifiers were not identified, I left them with "?"

Any errors spotted I will correct in the next release. ?

From the waveforms I've seen thus far in others replications, the circuit can be unstable (depending on bias setting) and will tend to bounce between several operating modes at the slightest external interference or synchronization with ambient externally generated frequencies or static magnetic fields large enough to couple to the core.

Regards

Edit: drawing revised to NR ver 1.01
« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 04:12:16 AM by Vortex1 »

Offline Zephir

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Re: Replication of Mini Radiant Exciter circuit of Nelson Rocha
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2017, 10:08:37 PM »
Hi Vortex1 - and thank You very much for your circuit and detailed description of it. 8)
Now I think we have state-of art formulation of the problem and we can start with its analysis.

From your scheme follows clearly, that the primary of T1 transformer is directly connected to +Source of DC circuit.
Which is strange, because such a transformer would suffer with high DC bias current at the case of failure of oscillations (it's primary of Tesla coil with no reactance for DC current). What's worse, it can work only when the power source will get shorted with Q1 Darlington transistor - with consequences for all components in the circuit.

It could explain why @Dog-One's replica stopped work so soon and maybe it could even explain the purpose of 20 W resistor, which @Dog-One pointed above and which isn't actually labeled in yours/Mr. Rocha's diagrams. Constant voltage source cannot be shorted with transistor without some protection or punishment. Anyway, this would be very unusual and ugly design.

Offline Dog-One

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Re: Replication of Mini Radiant Exciter circuit of Nelson Rocha
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2017, 10:44:17 PM »
From your scheme follows clearly, that the primary of T1 transformer is directly connected to +Source of DC circuit.

Maybe take Vortex1's image, draw a red path that shows this short.  Or not, because there is no short.
This circuit only draws a few milliamps of power.  How would I know that?  I built it and tested it.
Certainly not Vortex1 and I's first rodeo.  This is why I stressed in Grumage's thread that everyone
should build this very simple circuit--it has basic electronics as well as some more advanced concepts.
I guess we need to twist your arm Zephir.  You can't run until you at least learn to walk.

Offline Vortex1

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Re: Replication of Mini Radiant Exciter circuit of Nelson Rocha
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2017, 11:19:46 PM »
I would like to add that T1 is being charged with current just like T2 when Q1 turns on.

In a normal blocking oscillator the current through T2 would reach a point where the core would saturate, therefore base drive of Q1 would go to zero, and  Q1 would turn off, then the cycle would repeat.

Because Q1 draws so much current as it is driving essentially two transformers in tandem, it was necessary to use a Darlington TIP122 which has very high current gain. In this way the blocking oscillator could run normally and not run out of base drive current.

Regarding the 15 Ohm 20 Watt resistor. If one were to use such a resistor near it's rating one would have to anticipate a DC or RMS current of 1.155 Amps running through it and  expect a Voltage across it of 17.32V. This seems ridiculous to waste so much power to light a tiny LED.

Also regarding Dog-One's comment about bucking windings, all of the ones I have taken apart are straight wound types. I admit there may be special non-inductive types that use a reverse winding, but this resistor does not look like that type.

Usually these cement cased resistors have cement fill on one side (the side facing the PC board). It is easy to hollow out the cement filled portion and there would be ample room to put a long battery or a stack of button cells. I'm not saying this was done however for future reference for anyone dishonest who wants to make youtube money it would be a good hiding place, since there is no apparent engineering purpose for such a resistor in this circuit except by a wild stretch.

http://mhchip.en.alibaba.com/product/1569337369-801402376/20W_15R_5_Ceramic_cement_power_resistor_20W15RJ.html#!

Regards

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Re: Replication of Mini Radiant Exciter circuit of Nelson Rocha
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2017, 11:19:46 PM »

 

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