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Solid States Devices => Resonance Circuits and Systems => Topic started by: evostars on April 11, 2017, 10:31:06 PM

Title: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 11, 2017, 10:31:06 PM
I made 3 equal  bifilar pancake coils, on 3 cd trays, as can be seen in my youtube videos
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFz4KwTTMz5HlNimggtTsrDN9_jD2ZTeS
 (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFz4KwTTMz5HlNimggtTsrDN9_jD2ZTeS)

I placed them on top of each other, stacked like pancakes. equal distance. then I connected the center coil with a pulse driver. rim negative, center positive. this made the top side north, and bottom side south (compass measured)

The top and bottom coil where connected via the rim, and also connected to ground.

In this setup, when the top and the bottom coil are tuned (placing a capacitor parallel over the coil with the highest resonant frequency, so it dropped in frequency to match the other coil). there was a big resonant voltage rise at both of the centers, of both coils.

In trying to rectify to dc, I noticed the north side, produced much more voltage (pressure).
I then reversed the bottom coil, and placed a slight distance (4mm) between it and the center coil.
Something strange happened. The voltage rise on the south side became higher. and the resonant frequency dropped from 630KHZ to 430KHz.
After retuning the top coil(which still had the same resonant frequency) to match the frequency of the bottom coil, I noticed, the signals where out of phase.

In this new tuned setup, when I connected the the centers of the coils, to 2 uf4007 diodes, and 4 6,3uF capacitors (the picture shows parallel but i switched to series to protected the capacitors), The voltage was much higher.

11,68Vdc pulsed center coil, resulted in 950Vdc in the capacitors.

I wonder how this can be. the signals is 180 degrees out of phase (oscilloscope reading)
Why is the resonant frequency of the reversed south coil lower, and at the same time, much higher in voltage?

But the biggest smile on my face, was when I realized, the energy stored in the capacitors is related to the square of the voltage. So when the pulse voltage is made higher, the energy in the capacitors, is related to the square of the voltage rise. (much bigger).

I did a test with a 19Vdc pulse, and the capacitors read 1500Vdc

I wonder, what would happen, if I used a neon transformer, with a cap and a spark gap to produce the pulse voltage (high voltage).
The resonant rise would be insane high voltage. With enormous amounts of energy in the capacitors (series HV caps).




Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: MileHigh on April 11, 2017, 11:08:00 PM
In reading your description I believe that you tuned everything for the maximum resonant rise on the upper and lower coils, and when you did this the coils were unloaded.  Then you added the diode and capacitor array as a load and measured the very high DC voltage across the capacitors after a few seconds.

So the critical question is did you try to charge the capacitors when the transistor pulsing was not at the resonant frequency?  From what I can see in your description and drawings, you should get nearly as high DC voltages or perhaps the same high DC voltage when pulsing the transistor below or above the resonant frequency.

Have you tried this?   If the results are as I am expecting them do be, how do you explain this?
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 11, 2017, 11:18:33 PM
In reading your description I believe that you tuned everything for the maximum resonant rise on the upper and lower coils, and when you did this the coils were unloaded.  Then you added the diode and capacitor array as a load and measured the very high DC voltage across the capacitors after a few seconds.

So the critical question is did you try to charge the capacitors when the transistor pulsing was not at the resonant frequency?  From what I can see in your description and drawings, you should get nearly as high DC voltages or perhaps the same high DC voltage when pulsing the transistor below or above the resonant frequency.

Have you tried this?   If the results are as I am expecting them do be, how do you explain this?
changing the setup changes the resonant frequency.
so i tuned with the diodes  (making 2 dc paths)  and the capacitors connected while pulsing.

only this high voltage rise at the resonant frequency (both coils same resonant rise,  but out of phase)

if its not out of phase,  and not resonant,  than it wont work (only low voltage in the caps)
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: MileHigh on April 11, 2017, 11:29:05 PM
changing the setup changes the resonant frequency.
so i tuned with the diodes  (making 2 dc paths)  and the capacitors connected while pulsing.

only this high voltage rise at the resonant frequency (both coils same resonant rise,  but out of phase)

if its not out of phase,  and not resonant,  than it wont work (only low voltage in the caps)

Okay, then what I was thinking is probably not happening.  Just to double check, are you sure about this?  For example, if you get say 950 VDC at 430 kHz, are you sure you don't get say above 900 volts at say 50 kHz?

Anyway, any serious discussion of your setup and measurements requires a proper and complete schematic.  That's just the way it works in electronics.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 11, 2017, 11:34:44 PM
Okay, then what I was thinking is probably not happening.  Just to double check, are you sure about this?  For example, if you get say 950 VDC at 430 kHz, are you sure you don't get say above 900 volts at say 50 kHz?

Anyway, any serious discussion of your setup and measurements requires a proper and complete schematic.  That's just the way it works in electronics.
no 900 volts.  it is a narrow band it has to be precision tuned. i checked.

yes text isnt the best way to show it. but the pics explain enough(for now) .  maybe another video...
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 11, 2017, 11:38:28 PM
when a bigger setup for hv need te be tuned,  i could tune it with low voltage. and then when its tuned,  apply the high voltage pulse.  the tuning is not dependent on the pulse voltage. only on frequency.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: TinselKoala on April 11, 2017, 11:58:17 PM
Quote
I wonder, what would happen, if I used a neon transformer, with a cap and a spark gap to produce the pulse voltage (high voltage).
The resonant rise would be insane high voltage. With enormous amounts of energy in the capacitors (series HV caps).

Then you would have invented the Tesla Coil ! VRSWR (voltage rise by standing wave resonance) is indeed amazing.

But you don't need Tesla bifilar coils to see big voltage rises in resonant systems. I have many videos on this topic myself, but I won't distract this thread by posting them. Anyone who wants to see them can just search my YT channel for the right keywords.

Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 12, 2017, 12:10:48 AM
Then you would have invented the Tesla Coil ! VRSWR (voltage rise by standing wave resonance) is indeed amazing.

But you don't need Tesla bifilar coils to see big voltage rises in resonant systems. I have many videos on this topic myself, but I won't distract this thread by posting them. Anyone who wants to see them can just search my YT channel for the right keywords.


indeed,  there is a good resemblance to a tesla coil.
but its slightly different.
2 secondary coils, reverse wound for the south,  and slightly distanced from the primary.
and than diodes and caps...
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: TinselKoala on April 12, 2017, 11:57:09 AM
Several times I have seen the claim made that a coil wound in the Tesla Bifilar manner has half the DC resistance of a monofilar coil with the same number of turns, same wire, etc. I don't see how this could possibly be true, since for the same type and dimensions of wire, the DC resistance should depend only on the length of the wire, no matter how it is wound.

 But I have seen several versions of this claim that the TBF winding has half the resistance of a monofilar winding of the same total length.

OK, so I just spent two hours of steady concentration making two comparison coils
of my own. I used #34 magnet wire, wound them on a wooden dowel, and was
very careful. Both coils have 380 total turns (the TBF having 190+190).

I measured them with my Fluke 83-III multimeter in high-precision (4 1/2 digit)  mode.
I used short probe leads to make the connections to the coils. The
probe leads alone shorted together measured 0.72 ohms. The straight solenoid
coil monofilar measured 11.16 ohms, or 10.44 ohms after subtracting the probe
lead resistance. The Tesla Bifilar coil measured 11.24 ohms, or 10.52 ohms after
subtracting the probe lead resistance. The 0.08 ohms difference is probably due
to the resistance of the top-bottom connection soldered together in the TBF coil.

Inductance measured with my Pros-Kit inductance meter: TBF 224 microHenry,
monofilar 221 microHenry. Not a significant difference, but again probably accounted
for by the slight extra length of wire needed to make the top-bottom connection.

So what is going on? Where does this claim of "half resistance" come from? Are people
making some mistake, like mis-connecting the coil so that they are actually only
measuring half the total length of wire? Does this "half resistance" effect not happen
until you get many more turns than 380? Are they mistaking DC resistance for AC impedance?
Are they just making stuff up? Did _I_ make some mistake somehow?

Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 12, 2017, 12:03:25 PM
Several times I have seen the claim made that a coil wound in the Tesla Bifilar manner has half the DC resistance of a monofilar coil with the same number of turns, same wire, etc. I don't see how this could possibly be true, since for the same type and dimensions of wire, the DC resistance should depend only on the length of the wire, no matter how it is wound.

 But I have seen several versions of this claim that the TBF winding has half the resistance of a monofilar winding of the same total length.

OK, so I just spent two hours of steady concentration making two comparison coils
of my own. I used #34 magnet wire, wound them on a wooden dowel, and was
very careful. Both coils have 380 total turns (the TBF having 190+190).

I measured them with my Fluke 83-III multimeter in high-precision (4 1/2 digit)  mode.
I used short probe leads to make the connections to the coils. The
probe leads alone shorted together measured 0.72 ohms. The straight solenoid
coil monofilar measured 11.16 ohms, or 10.44 ohms after subtracting the probe
lead resistance. The Tesla Bifilar coil measured 11.24 ohms, or 10.52 ohms after
subtracting the probe lead resistance. The 0.08 ohms difference is probably due
to the resistance of the top-bottom connection soldered together in the TBF coil.

Inductance measured with my Pros-Kit inductance meter: TBF 224 microHenry,
monofilar 221 microHenry. Not a significant difference, but again probably accounted
for by the slight extra length of wire needed to make the top-bottom connection.

So what is going on? Where does this claim of "half resistance" come from? Are people
making some mistake, like mis-connecting the coil so that they are actually only
measuring half the total length of wire? Does this "half resistance" effect not happen
until you get many more turns than 380? Are they mistaking DC resistance for AC impedance?
Are they just making stuff up? Did _I_ make some mistake somehow?


please stick to the other thread keep this one clean.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 12, 2017, 12:07:22 PM
indeed,  there is a good resemblance to a tesla coil.
but its slightly different.
2 secondary coils, reverse wound for the south,  and slightly distanced from the primary.
and than diodes and caps...

It might not work with solenoid coils. im not shure,  but the fields generated with the pancake coils are able to interact because the fields occupy the same space. and with fields I mean the much more important DIELECTRIC field.


Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: TinselKoala on April 12, 2017, 12:23:50 PM
please stick to the other thread keep this one clean.

Oh, I thought this was "Some Bifilar coil experiments" thread. Now I see that it is actually "Some evostars Bifilar coil experiments" thread, others need not apply.

Well, excuuuuse me. You won't hear from me again in this thread.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 12, 2017, 12:57:37 PM
Oh, I thought this was "Some Bifilar coil experiments" thread. Now I see that it is actually "Some evostars Bifilar coil experiments" thread, others need not apply.

Well, excuuuuse me. You won't hear from me again in this thread.
Thank you
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 12, 2017, 12:59:32 PM
 a drawing of my setup producing 950Vdc, I'm in the process of making a video.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: itsu on April 12, 2017, 01:25:36 PM

<blockquote>
Quote
Oh, I thought this was "Some Bifilar coil experiments" thread. Now I see that it is actually "Some evostars Bifilar coil experiments" thread, others need not apply.

Well, excuuuuse me. You won't hear from me again in this thread.
</blockquote>Thank you

Bad move Evo, you just have thrown out one of the most knowledgeable, helpfull and respectfull researcher on this forum.

Foutje, bedankt.....


Itsu
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 12, 2017, 02:09:23 PM
I've made a video showing the working experiment producing 950Vdc:
https://youtu.be/KbtK9jrk_JI (https://youtu.be/KbtK9jrk_JI)
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: Ambient9 on April 12, 2017, 05:20:56 PM
I've made a video showing the working experiment producing 950Vdc:
https://youtu.be/KbtK9jrk_JI (https://youtu.be/KbtK9jrk_JI)

Great job! Well done! very interesting experiments!
Have you tried to measure the current with a load? or even to make a closed loop?

Keep it up  ;)

Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: dieter on April 12, 2017, 08:06:40 PM
Very impressive, thanks for the vid.


The caps load in about 1 sec, that's about 1.6uF * 900sqr /2...about 64 millijoule/s.


Anyway, it would be easier if you used a certain load, such as a 100 Ohm resistor, then you measure amps * volts = watts, and compare it with input watts. It is however an unusual way to step a voltage up. A standing wave does that. From my POV the art of profession would be an automatic frequency adjuster that compensates for the output that usually kills the resonance.


Anyway, interesting stuff.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: shylo on April 12, 2017, 09:11:42 PM
I don't understand why everything turns into a pissing match.
TK is very smart ,Listen to what he says ,answer his questions ,if you can ,if you don't understand ,say so.
If the question is lacking in understanding ,then explain why.
I find this very intriguing ,if I could raise my voltage to those levels, I would think a self runner is inevitable.
I'm not sure I understand Evo ,your pulsing the middle coil, and the two outside coils are putting out 900 volts?
I do agree ,keep all the bullshit contained to one thread, there's already enough around.
Looking forward to more of your work.
Thanks artv
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 12, 2017, 11:18:05 PM
Very impressive, thanks for the vid.


The caps load in about 1 sec, that's about 1.6uF * 900sqr /2...about 64 millijoule/s.


Anyway, it would be easier if you used a certain load, such as a 100 Ohm resistor, then you measure amps * volts = watts, and compare it with input watts. It is however an unusual way to step a voltage up. A standing wave does that. From my POV the art of profession would be an automatic frequency adjuster that compensates for the output that usually kills the resonance.


Anyway, interesting stuff.
Thansk dieter.
Yes the resonance needs to keep going. How to drain the caps, without disrupting the ac(topcoil)-dc(2x2 caps)-ac(bottom coil) path?

The energy is not related to the square root of the voltage, but the square of the voltage. the uF needs to be in farads.
11,68V input gives:
E=0,5*0,0000016*900*900=0,65 Joules

when i used 19 volts, it became 1500Vdc
E=0.5*0.0000016*1500*1500=1,8 joules

Speculation from here on: The ratio between voltage in and out is around 77,
So if i would use 55V *77 would produce 4235V
E=0,5*0,0000016*4235*4235=14,35 Joules

110V dc input *77 is 8470V
E=0,5*0.0000016*8470*8470=57,39 Joules

Do you see where this is going? 10x more input voltage, gives 88 times more output energy. (yes speculation, but based on the squared voltage).

A question rises. What about the input amperage?
My setup is far from ideal right now. The IGBT produces short sharp pulses, but, It does so by basically shorting out the power supply over the center coil. and this it does 50% of the frequency. I really need to fix this, before I can make a proper measurement. The Igbt should open and close very shortly. Another challenge to overcome.

Its again a speculation, but I think, to pulse the center coil i need a high voltage, but a relative low current. (like discharging a capacitor)

In the most perfect setup up, the center coil would also be pulsed at its resonant frequency (its not right now).

Far from perfect. but, worth the investigation.

edit: yes the standing wave, is what happens at the resonant frequency.
I like to compare it with water. If water is standing still, the waves apperently move over it(the water just moves up and down).
But when water travels fast, and it moves around a object, a standing wave is produced.
So the ether can move up and down, but with a standing wave, the ether is moving fast.
Now we have 2 coils (upside and downside) with standing waves.
The ether is moving fast, around both coils, at the same frequency.

to me it seems the ether flows, are interacting, producing the quick rise in voltage(pressure) in the caps.







Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 12, 2017, 11:33:12 PM
I'm not sure I understand Evo ,your pulsing the middle coil, and the two outside coils are putting out 900 volts?
Thanks Shylo.

The top coil produces (around) 500V and the bottom coil produces 500V opposite phase.
The probes are connected to the outer rims, of the top and bottom coils.
10x setting. 5V per division around 10 divisions gives 500V peak to peak
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: MileHigh on April 13, 2017, 01:19:55 AM
I find this very intriguing ,if I could raise my voltage to those levels, I would think a self runner is inevitable.

This has been covered over and over on the forums, I don't even know why I am bothering to post this.

The resonant system is simply storing more and more incremental energy supplied from the power supply.  For each cycle, the power supply adds some incremental amount of energy to the resonant system and the observed peak-to-peak voltage amplitude goes incrementally higher.

Eventually a balance point is reached where the incremental addition of energy per cycle is in balance with the incremental energy lost per cycle and the observed peak-to-peak voltage amplitude stops increasing and reaches a steady state.

There are probably 1000+ web sites that explain this process.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: dieter on April 13, 2017, 01:40:41 AM
evostars, you need to get the loading time into the calculation. Your caps cannot deliver 900vdc constantly. This only how high the voltage goes at max. It's the noload voltage.


Again, 900*900=81'000*1.6uF=~128milli *0.5=64 millijoule. How do you get 1.8 Joule?


Anyway, by adding a load such as a 100 ohm resistor, you can calculate the amps based on voltage. If the voltage were 200vdc at the load, then it were 200 vdc / 100 ohm= 2 ampere. And hat would be 200 vdc * 2 amps = 400 Watt.


Then again, your yellow multimeter looks like it has amp section.


Well, it may be relatively easy to autoadjust the frequency to resonance, the sam way tv and radio did it to follow a drifting station. I think it was termed AFC? Raher simple circuit.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: dieter on April 13, 2017, 01:43:14 AM
btw sorry bout the typos, my keyboard sucks.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: Dog-One on April 13, 2017, 04:40:25 AM
Quote from: evostars
Speculation from here on: The ratio between voltage in and out is around 77

Quite interesting considering the turns ratio is one to one.  At first glance with two coils, one would think 24 volts is about all you would get out of there.  A rather novel form of boost converter you have assembled there Evo.  I'll bet getting that 180 degree phase relationship was tricky to do.  Does it move around when the storage capacitors are charging?

So these coils produce a nice sine wave even though you are injecting a short duration pulse?  What's the approximate duty cycle?

Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 13, 2017, 08:12:43 AM
evostars, you need to get the loading time into the calculation. Your caps cannot deliver 900vdc constantly. This only how high the voltage goes at max. It's the noload voltage.


Again, 900*900=81'000*1.6uF=~128milli *0.5=64 millijoule. How do you get 1.8 Joule?


Anyway, by adding a load such as a 100 ohm resistor, you can calculate the amps based on voltage. If the voltage were 200vdc at the load, then it were 200 vdc / 100 ohm= 2 ampere. And hat would be 200 vdc * 2 amps = 400 Watt.


Then again, your yellow multimeter looks like it has amp section.


Well, it may be relatively easy to autoadjust the frequency to resonance, the sam way tv and radio did it to follow a drifting station. I think it was termed AFC? Raher simple circuit.
oops 900x900=810000 misted a zero
uF is micro farad.  micro is 1/1000000 so 0.0000016F
now calculate again
maybe buy a new keyboard ;)

indeed its unloaded. but it shows the energy potential.and the rise of energy related to the rise in input voltage.
 
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 13, 2017, 03:50:10 PM
Quite interesting considering the turns ratio is one to one.  At first glance with two coils, one would think 24 volts is about all you would get out of there.  A rather novel form of boost converter you have assembled there Evo.  I'll bet getting that 180 degree phase relationship was tricky to do.  Does it move around when the storage capacitors are charging?

So these coils produce a nice sine wave even though you are injecting a short duration pulse?  What's the approximate duty cycle?


Thanks dog one,
The 180 degree phase shift, happend. when I reversed the coil, and retuned it. I saw the voltage rise in my caps. Then I kept tuning, until i reach maximum voltage. Then the phase was 180 degrees.

yes, a sine wave, from being pulsed.

The power factor is a big question. What is the input power, what is the output power?
In this low voltage setup I'm rather convinced that the input is larger then the output power.

The relation between the input power and output power isnt linear. It needs to reach a certain voltage before it becomes really interesting. Below that voltage, the input is bigger, above that voltage, the output is bigger, due to its realtion to the square of the voltage.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: Grumage on April 13, 2017, 04:54:58 PM
Dear evostars.

You could get one of these for your input measurements.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-LCD-60V-100A-Balance-Voltage-RC-Battery-Power-Analyzer-DC-Watt-Meter-CI-/272291431181?hash=item3f65d5830d

I recently bought one but have not used it in any practical way yet.

Measuring the output will be a whole different " ball game " though.

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: AlienGrey on April 14, 2017, 01:42:56 AM
Interesting device but no good for RF ;) but ok for the power supply I suppose

cheers anyway AG
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 14, 2017, 04:48:11 PM
Dear evostars.

You could get one of these for your input measurements.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-LCD-60V-100A-Balance-Voltage-RC-Battery-Power-Analyzer-DC-Watt-Meter-CI-/272291431181?hash=item3f65d5830d

I recently bought one but have not used it in any practical way yet.

Measuring the output will be a whole different " ball game " though.

Cheers Graham.
Thanks for the advice, looks like a nice piece of gear. but its restricted to 60Vdc
I found a 750uOhm shunt on my igbt driver. maybe i will use that.
But In the end, I think i need a different kind of pulse generator.
Maybe one that can charge a capacitor, and then discharge the capcitor at both ends by switching both ends of the capacitor.
My IGBT driver, now only switches one end (to ground)
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 14, 2017, 05:22:28 PM
I thought about how to extract energy from a high voltage system. As that is a tricky thing. It all needs to be tuned. In the attached drawing I used 2 pulse transformer, to generate AC on the secondary.
Don't know if this would work, but it would be a way to transform the high voltage into low voltage, high current.
The spark gap, would also be part of the system, I believe it should be in the center of the bifilar coils, as that would return some of the spark energy back into the system.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: Zephir on April 14, 2017, 05:57:03 PM
You can draw the load from resonance circuits in many ways, but these usually don't involve the overunity. This is where the bifilar coil comes by: it draws the current without inducing the back electromotive force into an circuit.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: dieter on April 14, 2017, 11:23:22 PM
@evostars, of course, I just read the wrong line. We had the same results, I approximated adhoc to 64mJ, you said 65mJ.


However, Voltage alone is nothing. V*A=W. V*V=0...


still, wish you success.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 14, 2017, 11:39:22 PM
@evostars, of course, I just read the wrong line. We had the same results, I approximated adhoc to 64mJ, you said 65mJ.


However, Voltage alone is nothing. V*A=W. V*V=0...


still, wish you success.
I didn't say 65mJ i said 0,65J that equals to 650mJ (m=1/1000).

Thank you for wishing me success.
Success to you too.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 15, 2017, 12:44:36 PM
screenshot of the relation between the pulses of the center coil,  and the resonant sine wave of the reversed south coil
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: Grumage on April 15, 2017, 01:04:11 PM
Dear evostars.
screenshot of the relation between the pulses of the center coil,  and the resonant sine wave of the reversed south coil

Dear evostars.

Are you able to resize the above image?

It really does " muck up " the continuity!

I can try to do it if you're unable?

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 15, 2017, 01:11:46 PM
Dear evostars.
Dear evostars.

Are you able to resize the above image?

It really does " muck up " the continuity!

I can try to do it if you're unable?

Cheers Graham.
Done!
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: Grumage on April 15, 2017, 01:47:14 PM
Lovely.... :)
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: dieter on April 16, 2017, 04:42:54 AM
Here's a suggestion about how to determine the constant output capacity. A relatively high ohm resistor will not shorten the caps, but yet allows to calculate the constant watts. Moddfied schematic of yours.
It is an interesting project, but you should do this test, unless we should replicate it just for this 1 cent resistor test.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 16, 2017, 10:53:51 AM
Here's a suggestion about how to determine the constant output capacity. A relatively high ohm resistor will not shorten the caps, but yet allows to calculate the constant watts. Modified schematic of yours.
It is an interesting project, but you should do this test, unless we should replicate it just for this 1 cent resistor test.
it won't work like that.
the dc circuit is part of a high frequency ac resonant circuit.
it will discharge the capacitors and the resonant sine will stop.
the resonant system doesnt like resistance. it needs to be able to flow free.
but that doesn't mean there's not an energy potential.
it needs to be transformed in another way.
ohms law only works good with DC.

the suggestion of using 50/60 hz would not bring the system into its resonant frequency
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: Dog-One on April 16, 2017, 03:18:44 PM
it won't work like that.
the dc circuit is part of a high frequency ac resonant circuit.
it will discharge the capacitors and the resonant sine will stop.
the resonant system doesnt like resistance. it needs to be able to flow free.

I was thinking about this very thing the other day.

Resistance, or maybe better stated, impedance, is an interesting thing when we consider capacitors.

A fully charged capacitor as a load provides very high resistance.
A fully discharged capacitor as a load provides a very low resistance.

So resistance in this scenario can actually be seen as the state of charge on a capacitor.

Quite a long time ago, Erfinder was explaining to me how it is important to keep a capacitor
charged at all times in order for the resonant circuit to perform well.  There's a voltage point
at which if you pull any more energy from the capacitor, the resonant circuit becomes too
damped and dies off.  But if you stay above this voltage point, the resonant circuit remains
undamped and will continue to oscillate freely.  So if we attempt to extract any energy from
the capacitor, we must do it via voltage regulation--only pull the voltage down to the threshold
and no more.

Doug Konzen use the concept of switching between multiple capacitors so that energy
being extracted is never coming from the same capacitor that is currently being charged.
Still, we cannot connect a depleted capacitor back to the resonant circuit, so when a charged
capacitor is switched out and we begin extracting energy from it, we must be careful to
only draw it down to our known threshold.  That way when we switch it back in to be
recharged, it doesn't dampen the resonance.

Something to note:  Nowhere have I mentioned the size of the capacitor or how many.
What is important is the threshold voltage, which determines the resistance the resonant
circuit sees.  My hunch is this is the basis of a parametric oscillator--as the charge state
of the capacitor increases, it's resistance seen by the resonant circuit also increases,
allowing each cycle to reach a higher potential.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: Erfinder on April 16, 2017, 03:33:39 PM
I was thinking about this very thing the other day.

Resistance, or maybe better stated, impedance, is an interesting thing when we consider capacitors.

A fully charged capacitor as a load provides very high resistance.
A fully discharged capacitor as a load provides a very low resistance.

So resistance in this scenario can actually be seen as the state of charge on a capacitor.

Quite a long time ago, Erfinder was explaining to me how it is important to keep a capacitor
charged at all times in order for the resonant circuit to perform well.  There's a voltage point
at which if you pull any more energy from the capacitor, the resonant circuit becomes too
damped and dies off.  But if you stay above this voltage point, the resonant circuit remains
undamped and will continue to oscillate freely.  So if we attempt to extract any energy from
the capacitor, we must do it via voltage regulation--only pull the voltage down to the threshold
and no more.

Doug Konzen use the concept of switching between multiple capacitors so that energy
being extracted is never coming from the same capacitor that is currently being charged.
Still, we cannot connect a depleted capacitor back to the resonant circuit, so when a charged
capacitor is switched out and we begin extracting energy from it, we must be careful to
only draw it down to our known threshold.
  That way when we switch it back in to be
recharged, it doesn't dampen the resonance.


The bold was the standard....I am beyond that now, it has been discovered that if the circuit doing the charging is predominantly capacitive reactive, you can extract energy from the charged capacitor and do not need to recognize a threshold.  Dead shorting the charge cap has no effect on the circuit charging it.  Current produced within and by a capacitive system is fundamentally different than that which is operating in an inductive system.  The capacitor isn't storing current, and as such, it cannot generate those conditions which plague inductive reactive systems.


Resonance needs to be a concept which we see operating across the entire spectrum that the system is transitioning through and not just frequencies associated with parasitic and proximity relations....


Regards
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: Dog-One on April 16, 2017, 03:44:08 PM
 ;D

I'm glad you're leaving a trail of popcorn Erfinder.  Having a hell of a time keeping up.   :)
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: Erfinder on April 16, 2017, 03:59:34 PM
;D

I'm glad you're leaving a trail of popcorn Erfinder.  Having a hell of a time keeping up.   :)


So far I have only see one person barking up this tree....ignore the theory....ignore all the references to the literature, appreciate what's being demonstrated...


http://overunity.com/17119/pulling-energy-from-the-ambient-energy-field-using-a-coil-capacitor/#.WPN4KfmLSUk




He's got it on the line, but is oblivious as to how big that thing is which is circling his boat.......
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 16, 2017, 04:58:51 PM
Interesting input Dog-one and Erfinder.

until now we think of it as a bifilar coil with great capacitance.
but what if we start looking at it as a bifilar capacitor with inductance? And what if we reinforced the dielectric field? with dielectric material. and by using bifilar foil instead of thin wire. to make the dielectric field area bigger.

I still wonder what happends with the south coil. the resonant signal is out of phase with the center pulsed coil, and the wires are counter wound (by reversing the coil). Still the voltage rise is much bigger then the north coil.

I wonder If I could use this reverse wound, opposite phase, in another configuration, where the outside coils are pulsed, to make 2 distanced inside coils resonate out of phase.

This way the resonant coils interact direct with eachothers fields. without conflicting with the pulsed outside coils.

Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: Erfinder on April 16, 2017, 05:12:14 PM
Interesting input Dog-one and Erfinder.

until now we think of it as a bifilar coil with great capacitance.
but what if we start looking at it as a bifilar capacitor with inductance?


Before one's attention is focused on specialized geometry, one should consider a common solenoid style coil.  Ask yourself this.....when are we justified in considering an inductor as though it were a capacitor?





And what if we reinforced the dielectric field? with dielectric material. and by using bifilar foil instead of thin wire. to make the dielectric field area bigger.


This statement reveals that you believe that the field is a function of the material and not the activity of the circuit.....  You want a larger field, increase the activity of the circuit.  You want a larger field, neutralize the negative aspects associated with opposition to change!  It was stated that we can get rid of the conventional style condenser, replacing it with a system of capacity....  Try and comprehend the genius behind that realization! 




Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 16, 2017, 06:10:06 PM
Before one's attention is focused on specialized geometry, one should consider a common solenoid style coil.  Ask yourself this.....when are we justified in considering an inductor as though it were a capacitor?

This statement reveals that you believe that the field is a function of the material and not the activity of the circuit.....  You want a larger field, increase the activity of the circuit.  You want a larger field, neutralize the negative aspects associated with opposition to change!  It was stated that we can get rid of the conventional style condenser, replacing it with a system of capacity....  Try and comprehend the genius behind that realization! 
the bifilar coil capacitor, can store energy in its dielectric field.

the main focus most of the time, seems to be the inductance, the magnetic field of the coil.
while it also has a dielectric field, capacitance.
this dielectric field is made bigger between the windings of the bifilar coil.

this dielectric field is almost unknown. especially the dynamic dielectric field.
at the resonant frequency the voltage can be measured outside of the circuit.
just like the magnetic field can be measured outside the circuit.
so the dielectric field isn't only restricted to between the windings.

in a dc circuit :
the solenoid has a cylinder geometry form dielectric field.  and the magnetic field is wrapped around it. forming a distanced north and south "pole"

the bifilar pancake coil, has a flat disk formed dielectric field geometry.  and in the center of this dielectric disk,  is the north and south "pole".
it all lines up perfectly. thats enough reason for me to explore the pancake bifilar coil instead of the solenoid form. I personally think the pancake is a much more natural form, producing more natural fields.

but thats dc.at ac, at the resonant frequency,  the fields transform.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: Zephir on April 16, 2017, 06:39:44 PM
The bifilar coil (there are many of them (http://i.imgur.com/GWP12bP.gif)) has some inductance and capacitance common with classical coils and capacitors, but these properties are parasitic only. Primarily it's the scalar field/wave generator/receptor. Inside the normal coil magnetic fields are additive, inside the bifilar coils they're acting against each other, i.e. they're producing compression waves, not these transverse shear ones.

The difference between wires of normal coil and bifilar one is similar like the difference between paddles forming surface and underwater sound waves at the water surface. The paddles create mostly surface waves, so that they must operate in unison like the wires passed with current within normal coil. For creation of the underwater waves we must compress and expand water surface periodically, therefore our paddles must move against each other. The formation of surface ripples and their spreading into outside is undesirable secondary effect in fact. The ideal bifilar coil is supposed to spread only scalar waves, not EM waves into outside.

The bifilar coil therefore forms a lattice of magnetic field which are oriented against each other like the magnets which are glued together in repulsive arrangement. Now we can put the principal question: does the property of vacuum change when we have two strong magnets, which act against each other in such a way, their effects are nullified? From perspective of classical Maxwell theory there is no difference between empty vacuum without any magnetic field and vacuum in which strong magnetic field compensate mutually.

From perspective of dense aether model such a fields indeed differ because such a vacuum is rich of energy (the repulsive magnets can do a work) and we have analogy for it in dielectric field of charged capacitor. The vacuum between plates of charged capacitor gets polarized and its plates attract or repulse itself in similar way, like the magnet in attractive or repulsive arrangement. The capacitors charged to a high voltage therefore can serve as a generators and/or detectors of scalar waves in similar way, like the bifilar coils.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 16, 2017, 07:27:25 PM
@ zephir
it is indeed possible to make these magnetic fields that are opposite.  but that way of connecting is not what im interested in, nor was it stated in tesla's patent. although his patent seems to be stripped of alot of additional information.

I feel its unnatural to counteract the magnetic fields. although its interesting, I have choosen (for now) to not investigate this way of connecting the bifilar coils.
the dielectric field also is differently between the windings.  the input and the output will have the biggest voltage difference, while the center where the coils connect,  there is no voltage difference.

interesting, but not for me.

I keep working with the coil as discribed in the patent. I request you kindly to proceed with this offtopic different coil at another topic lead.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: Zephir on April 16, 2017, 07:30:20 PM
The simplest experiment how to demonstrate the existence of scalar waves violating the classical physics is the attempt for their transmission at distance. The scalar waves aren't absorbed with metals, so that the metal sheets (Faraday cage) can be used for their separation and "purification" from superposed classical, i.e. transverse electromagnetic waves. We can utilize pair of bifilar coils for it, which we separate with grounded Faraday cages or even better with ferromagnetic sheets. Under laws if classical physics no signal should be transferred from generator to detector coil at distance, especially not when the coils will be separated with metal sheet.

The analogous experiment with scalar wave transmission we can arrange with pairs of capacitor, which must be planar (i.e. not rolled - typically high quality mica capacitor), which will be charged into high voltage (the higher the better). If we would load one of capacitors with DC signal, then the another capacitor will detect it at distance. In this situation you'll reveal, that scalar waves have pronouncedly directional character - they're not spreading through vacuum in spherical waves like normal EM wave - but like the superluminal beam. The detection of signal from first capacitor with another one will strongly depend on their mutual orientation. And again: the surrounding of capacitors with conductive shield (Faraday cage) shouldn't affect the scalar wave transmission.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: Zephir on April 16, 2017, 07:35:48 PM
Quote
it is indeed possible to make these magnetic fields that are opposite.  but that way of connecting is not what im interested in

LOL - and which way of connecting are you interested about? In bifilar coil the magnetic field always have opposite orientation.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: Erfinder on April 16, 2017, 07:40:59 PM
the bifilar coil capacitor, can store energy in its dielectric field.

the main focus most of the time, seems to be the inductance, the magnetic field of the coil.
while it also has a dielectric field, capacitance.
this dielectric field is made bigger between the windings of the bifilar coil.

this dielectric field is almost unknown. especially the dynamic dielectric field.
at the resonant frequency the voltage can be measured outside of the circuit.
just like the magnetic field can be measured outside the circuit.
so the dielectric field isn't only restricted to between the windings.

in a dc circuit :
the solenoid has a cylinder geometry form dielectric field.  and the magnetic field is wrapped around it. forming a distanced north and south "pole"

the bifilar pancake coil, has a flat disk formed dielectric field geometry.  and in the center of this dielectric disk,  is the north and south "pole".
it all lines up perfectly. thats enough reason for me to explore the pancake bifilar coil instead of the solenoid form. I personally think the pancake is a much more natural form, producing more natural fields.

but thats dc.at ac, at the resonant frequency,  the fields transform.


I am not here to convince you of anything....I am sharing my experience.  I have issues with many things you have stated above, however, I will keep these things to myself  as they will not be accepted anyway...folk must find their own way. 


Good luck with your research.


Regards
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 16, 2017, 08:53:17 PM

I am not here to convince you of anything....I am sharing my experience.  I have issues with many things you have stated above, however, I will keep these things to myself  as they will not be accepted anyway...folk must find their own way. 


Good luck with your research.


Regards
thank you for letting me find my own way. good  luck to you too
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 16, 2017, 08:56:36 PM
LOL - and which way of connecting are you interested about? In bifilar coil the magnetic field always have opposite orientation.
the other way: coilwinding1 outside to inside. coilwinding 2 inside to outside series connected.
In this way the magnetic field of the 2 coil windings produce a magnetic field that cancelles out between the windings.

this is not my way
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: dieter on April 17, 2017, 04:34:39 AM
I didn't "suggest 50 or 60 hz"), I asked "40 - 50 kHz?"


I tried to explain to you that you can use a high ohm resistor, as high as it has to be so it won't pevent the effect, use a megaohm if you like, you can still do the calculation of Watts.


Of course you need to find the resonant frequency for a certain fixed Load, while it is connected!


However, if you are unwilling or unable to actually read my text ( let alone not treating me like a stupid little boy) then this was certainly my last attempt to offer help.


Excuse me for scratching your crown.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 17, 2017, 10:48:57 AM
I didn't "suggest 50 or 60 hz"), I asked "40 - 50 kHz?"


I tried to explain to you that you can use a high ohm resistor, as high as it has to be so it won't pevent the effect, use a megaohm if you like, you can still do the calculation of Watts.


Of course you need to find the resonant frequency for a certain fixed Load, while it is connected!


However, if you are unwilling or unable to actually read my text ( let alone not treating me like a stupid little boy) then this was certainly my last attempt to offer help.


Excuse me for scratching your crown.
50-60hz or khz doesn't matter.  It can work,  as long if it is the resonant  frequency of the top and  bottom coils.(that's what i meant before) my coils don't reach that low.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 17, 2017, 11:21:59 AM
on a personal note: I must admit, I feel very misunderstood. And sometimes I put on my crown.  I can react hard and close minded, because i feel so misunderstood and cast out.
I'm only human.
this is my responsibility.
Im working on this
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: Magluvin on April 17, 2017, 12:14:18 PM
The bifilar coil (there are many of them (http://i.imgur.com/GWP12bP.gif)) has some inductance and capacitance common with classical coils and capacitors, but these properties are parasitic only. Primarily it's the scalar field/wave generator/receptor. Inside the normal coil magnetic fields are additive, inside the bifilar coils they're acting against each other, i.e. they're producing compression waves, not these transverse shear ones.

The difference between wires of normal coil and bifilar one is similar like the difference between paddles forming surface and underwater sound waves at the water surface. The paddles create mostly surface waves, so that they must operate in unison like the wires passed with current within normal coil. For creation of the underwater waves we must compress and expand water surface periodically, therefore our paddles must move against each other. The formation of surface ripples and their spreading into outside is undesirable secondary effect in fact. The ideal bifilar coil is supposed to spread only scalar waves, not EM waves into outside.

The bifilar coil therefore forms a lattice of magnetic field which are oriented against each other like the magnets which are glued together in repulsive arrangement. Now we can put the principal question: does the property of vacuum change when we have two strong magnets, which act against each other in such a way, their effects are nullified? From perspective of classical Maxwell theory there is no difference between empty vacuum without any magnetic field and vacuum in which strong magnetic field compensate mutually.

From perspective of dense aether model such a fields indeed differ because such a vacuum is rich of energy (the repulsive magnets can do a work) and we have analogy for it in dielectric field of charged capacitor. The vacuum between plates of charged capacitor gets polarized and its plates attract or repulse itself in similar way, like the magnet in attractive or repulsive arrangement. The capacitors charged to a high voltage therefore can serve as a generators and/or detectors of scalar waves in similar way, like the bifilar coils.

Are you talking about a series bifi coil as shown with connections as Tesla has shown in his pat for Electromagnets? Or are you talking about reversing one of the filar conductors connections so as its currents are flowing in the opposite direction of the other?

Otherwise how is it the magnetic relationship between adjacent turns change with a bifi coil vs a normal coil of the same dimensions as you have described?

Mags
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: dieter on April 17, 2017, 02:28:06 PM
I was in a bad mood when I wrote that, psl excuse me.
I don't believe in "there is no free lunch" and the invincibility of the law of energy conservation, so I guess we're on the same side.
kr
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 17, 2017, 02:39:29 PM
I was in a bad mood when I wrote that, psl excuse me.
I don't believe in "there is no free lunch" and the invincibility of the law of energy conservation, so I guess we're on the same side.
kr
I also was in a bad mood.
 We all live on this great planet, together.

Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: Zephir on April 17, 2017, 03:25:50 PM
Quote
Are you talking about a series bifi coil as shown with connections as Tesla has shown in his pat for Electromagnets? Or are you talking about reversing one of the filar conductors connections so as its currents are flowing in the opposite direction of the other?

I'm talking about A) type of bifilar coils (http://i.imgur.com/GWP12bP.gif), in which the currents in neighboring wires flow in opposite direction. The Tesla's bifilar coils are D) type.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: Magluvin on April 17, 2017, 03:48:20 PM
I'm talking about A) type of bifilar coils (http://i.imgur.com/GWP12bP.gif), in which the currents in neighboring wires flow in opposite direction. The Tesla's bifilar coils are C) type.

Ok, so your type A is where if we were to look at that same pic you posted there, then the input would be connected to the red and blue on the left side and the right side the blue are connected together. Right?  If so, just wondering, is there a use for that? Thanks

Mags
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 17, 2017, 03:51:08 PM
I'm talking about A) type of bifilar coils (http://i.imgur.com/GWP12bP.gif), in which the currents in neighboring wires flow in opposite direction. The Tesla's bifilar coils are C) type.
Indeed thats what I thought. you are talking about coil A (this topic does not discuss this)

Coil C is not stated in telsa's patent (blue and red coils are shortcut on themselves, and not connected)

Coil D is stated in teslas patent. series connected.
This is the coil I am interested in.

I took your Imgur pic, and enhanced it.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: Magluvin on April 17, 2017, 03:55:34 PM
Ok, so your type A is where if we were to look at that same pic you posted there, then the input would be connected to the red and blue on the left side and the right side the blue are connected together. Right?  If so, just wondering, is there a use for that? Thanks

Mags

Like if we were to add a 3rd winding that just rode on top of the bifi, in the valley between each bifi pair, as wired in A type, would the 3rd be induced by the mag bubbles you had shown in that earlier pic, without affecting the A type bifi?  Like in the A type, I can understand that inductance will be canceled out when we apply input.

Mags
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: Magluvin on April 17, 2017, 03:57:33 PM
Indeed thats what I thought. you are talking about coil A (this topic does not discuss this)

Coil C is not stated in telsa's patent (blue coil is shortcut on itself)

Coil D is stated in teslas patent. series connected.
This is the coil I am interested in.

I took your Imgur pic, and enhanced it.

ok so the bifi tesla shows is a D type, not a C type as Zepher said. Just went back and corrected as I thought he said B, but it was C.

Mags
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: Zephir on April 17, 2017, 04:11:10 PM
Quote
bifi tesla shows is a D type, not a C type as Zepher said... this topic does not discuss this

Confirmed, corrected. I don't know, which type of bifilar coil this topic is supposed to discuss.
But I don't see any usage for D) type coil with respect to my scalar waves based theory, especially not in low-frequency ferrite-core coils.
Recently Nasa claimed that researchers at Caltech have created a new device to “view the quantum world” (http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/imagegallery/image_feature_2311.html) - it looks just like Tesla’s bifilar coil except - it is wired differently, where the electrical currents would run in opposite directions parallel to each other.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 17, 2017, 06:28:43 PM
Confirmed, corrected. I don't know, which type of bifilar coil this topic is supposed to discuss.
But I don't see any usage for D) type coil with respect to my scalar waves based theory, especially not in low-frequency ferrite-core coils.
Recently Nasa claimed that researchers at Caltech have created a new device to “view the quantum world” (http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/imagegallery/image_feature_2311.html) - it looks just like Tesla’s bifilar coil except - it is wired differently, where the electrical currents would run in opposite directions parallel to each other.
NASA (Never A Straight Answer said Eric p Dollard)
quote from the nasa article:
This new type of amplifier boosts electrical signals
Indeed it does. I have build a type A coil  (with simple wire) solenoid style. equal diameter and height, slight spacing (1,5) between the windings.
Wound like a caduceus coil.

When connected between the earth connection, and the outer rim of a resonant bifilar pancake  coil (type D tesla style),
the inside rim of the bifilar coil shows a higher voltage (amplified) than, when the caduceus coil (type A) isnt there.

no special  superconductors-materials needed...

This topic, is not about the type A (caduceus) bifilar coil.
Its about the type D tesla patent bifilar coil.

Now please discuss your interesting (but off topic) scalar wave theory in your own topic.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: Jo-EL on April 18, 2017, 07:25:05 AM
LOL - and which way of connecting are you interested about? In bifilar coil the magnetic field always have opposite orientation.

No @Zephir
There are two possibilities to conect a bifilar woundet coil.
wire 1 and 2 paralel the end is closed

or

wire 1 and 2 paralel and theend of wire 1 is conected with the beginning of wire 2

Like Nikola Tesla says: there are a bigger capacity of factor 2.500.000 then a singel woundet coil

OK i saw your post Nr #65


Sorry for my ingles but its not my language !
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 18, 2017, 04:49:45 PM
need more coils, so I started rolling again. fast drying glue, double sided tape, cd sleeve, 2 copper wire spools, and some Zen mastery:
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: Zephir on April 18, 2017, 05:15:19 PM
Quote
There are two possibilities to connect a bifilar wound coil wire 1 and 2 parallel the end is closed

Inside Tesla coil the currents also can propagate against each other in neighboring wires, but it requires high frequency and specific resonance condition - so that the standing waves (http://falstad.com/circuit/e-tl.html) of distributed impedance (http://i.imgur.com/ihA8Vma.gif) interfere each other. I don't know in this moment, if it's necessary condition of overunity and if the type A) wouldn't actually work better in wider ranger of frequencies. At any case, it would be interesting, if the replicators here would check and measure behavior of both variants (A, D) of bifilar coil at once - if nothing else, than just for comparison.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: Magluvin on April 18, 2017, 09:46:29 PM
Inside Tesla coil the currents also can propagate against each other in neighboring wires, but it requires high frequency and specific resonance condition - so that the standing waves (http://falstad.com/circuit/e-tl.html) of distributed impedance (http://i.imgur.com/ihA8Vma.gif) interfere each other. I don't know in this moment, if it's necessary condition of overunity and if the type A) wouldn't actually work better in wider ranger of frequencies. At any case, it would be interesting, if the replicators here would check and measure behavior of both variants (A, D) of bifilar coil at once - if nothing else, than just for comparison.

In the case for D type as you show, I dont think the LRC diagram next to it is correct. I think the cap resistor and coil should all be in series. The way your diagram shows, there is no resistance in series with the cap nor the inductor and in circuit with only a resistor in parallel as shown, that would make the cap and coil ideal in where they have no resistance between the input terminals. So immediately the cap would charge at infinite current levels. BOOM!.  The Type D coils resistance is the coil, so it would be series, and the capacitance built into the coils windings is also a series situation where the resistance of the coil would RC time the charge to the cap from input.  Like if the type D were to get an initial input of dc, the cap would have to charge through the coil and the coil is the resistance. In the LRC depiction, the cap gets input charge despite the inductor or resistor. Make sense?  And if you have picked up that description picture from some book , etc, they need to review what they are posting as fact. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: Magluvin on April 18, 2017, 10:40:07 PM
In the case for D type as you show, I dont think the LRC diagram next to it is correct. I think the cap resistor and coil should all be in series. The way your diagram shows, there is no resistance in series with the cap nor the inductor and in circuit with only a resistor in parallel as shown, that would make the cap and coil ideal in where they have no resistance between the input terminals. So immediately the cap would charge at infinite current levels. BOOM!.  The Type D coils resistance is the coil, so it would be series, and the capacitance built into the coils windings is also a series situation where the resistance of the coil would RC time the charge to the cap from input.  Like if the type D were to get an initial input of dc, the cap would have to charge through the coil and the coil is the resistance. In the LRC depiction, the cap gets input charge despite the inductor or resistor. Make sense?  And if you have picked up that description picture from some book , etc, they need to review what they are posting as fact. ;)

Mags

Considering what I said above I was thinking of the possibility of the cap and inductor in parallel with a resistor in series with that, but it still is the inductor that is resistive, and the current from the input needs to go through the inductor to charge the cap, so Im sticking with what I said above.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 19, 2017, 12:00:26 AM
type d, series or parallel?
I've made a post of it earlier.

for me its neither. the fields interact, as ONE.  it can't be translated to a series or parallel inductor capacitor wire resistance. because it is not made of seperate fields.  the coil has inductance and capacitance,  and resistance all at the same time,  in the same space. So to me it can't be series or parallel.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: Dog-One on April 20, 2017, 02:38:36 AM
for me its neither. the fields interact, as ONE.  it can't be translated to a series or parallel inductor capacitor wire resistance. because it is not made of seperate fields.  the coil has inductance and capacitance,  and resistance all at the same time,  in the same space. So to me it can't be series or parallel.

I'm with Evo on this one.  In one of Eric Dollard's videos he goes into the extreme complexity of a transformer winding, typically multi-layered.  For any single segment of wire, you have varying magnetic flux all around, some counter and some the same, each with different intensities.  That's just the magnetic portion.  Then we add in all the non-conductive spaces where the dielectric fields are.  It becomes a complete mess to calculate.  Modern day engineers attempt to wash all that complexity away with turns ratios and coupling factors, but that's not what is really going on at the level of the fields.  I didn't even bring in the effect at the atomic layer of the physical materials used and how resistance plays into things.  Everything matters.  You can't just simplify it all away.  There's a symphony of forces at work in these coils.  You have to be able to see it all in your minds eye to have any hope of manipulating it correctly.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on April 20, 2017, 09:39:32 PM
I'm with Evo on this one.  In one of Eric Dollard's videos he goes into the extreme complexity of a transformer winding, typically multi-layered.  For any single segment of wire, you have varying magnetic flux all around, some counter and some the same, each with different intensities.  That's just the magnetic portion.  Then we add in all the non-conductive spaces where the dielectric fields are.  It becomes a complete mess to calculate.  Modern day engineers attempt to wash all that complexity away with turns ratios and coupling factors, but that's not what is really going on at the level of the fields.  I didn't even bring in the effect at the atomic layer of the physical materials used and how resistance plays into things.  Everything matters.  You can't just simplify it all away.  There's a symphony of forces at work in these coils.  You have to be able to see it all in your minds eye to have any hope of manipulating it correctly.

What video was that Dog-One? I remember reading about the transformer windings, but can remember seeing him talk about it. I would Love to see it.

I just tested my 3 new bifilar pancake coils. They have bigger capacitance (measured between the 2 windings when not connected). and as predicted, the resonant frequency is lower, than my other 3 coils (with lower capacitance, and higher resonant frequency).
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: Magluvin on April 20, 2017, 10:04:39 PM
Considering what I said above I was thinking of the possibility of the cap and inductor in parallel with a resistor in series with that, but it still is the inductor that is resistive, and the current from the input needs to go through the inductor to charge the cap, so Im sticking with what I said above.

Looking at how the series bifi reacts to input at resonance it does look to be a parallel equivalent event. But maye there is a strange combo in there that we dont realize yet. Some things are coming down the path that may enlighten us.

Here are sim shots below  The first circuit from the left is series, second is parallel and the third is what you presented as parallel.

Even the second one is not correct, refer to the 3rd image.  But if I connect the power supply in the 3rd circuit the sim locks and says cant have 0ohm with the power in connected directly to the cap, as can be seen in the sec pic.  So in the 3rd pic it should be an accurate presentation of a parallel circuit where the cap and the coil have their own resistances. Not poking fun or faulting, but where ever that came from it is not correct.

Mags

Mags
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: Magluvin on April 20, 2017, 10:06:23 PM
Also having the resistor in parallel with the other components, if it were a low value it would take on wasted current from the input inspite of the other components.

Mags
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: teslonian on April 20, 2017, 10:49:02 PM

I looked back a couple posts and couldn't figure out what the subject matter actually is except maybe what the topic title suggests, which is experiments on bifilar coils. Well here's an eBook that explains what we can do with bifilar coils that hasn't been explained anywhere else before that I can see so far.


http://eternalmotor.blogspot.com/p/genesis-of-new-energy-source_32.html (http://eternalmotor.blogspot.com/p/genesis-of-new-energy-source_32.html)

Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: Magluvin on April 20, 2017, 11:19:36 PM
I looked back a couple posts and couldn't figure out what the subject matter actually is except maybe what the topic title suggests, which is experiments on bifilar coils. Well here's an eBook that explains what we can do with bifilar coils that hasn't been explained anywhere else before that I can see so far.


http://eternalmotor.blogspot.com/p/genesis-of-new-energy-source_32.html (http://eternalmotor.blogspot.com/p/genesis-of-new-energy-source_32.html)

This is what I get when I try that link....

Mags
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: teslonian on April 20, 2017, 11:26:23 PM
You're kidding me. It's just a google blogspot formerly known as blogger. May I ask where you are accessing internet at? At home, an internet café, the library, your mobile cell? I have no problems with the link, maybe try another access point? Not sure why you got that message, to me that looks like a fake message of some type that has nothing to do with what it says. I'm pretty sure Google isn't going to allow what that message claims. It must be installed on a router you're using or something, pretty weird and rare. Please let me know.  ;)
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: Magluvin on April 20, 2017, 11:41:12 PM
You're kidding me. It's just a google blogspot formerly known as blogger. May I ask where you are accessing internet at? At home, an internet café, the library, your mobile cell? I have no problems with the link, maybe try another access point? Not sure why you got that message, to me that looks like a fake message of some type that has nothing to do with what it says. I'm pretty sure Google isn't going to allow what that message claims. It must be installed on a router you're using or something, pretty weird and rare. Please let me know.  ;)

Well its my firewall comodo that is asking me if I want to continue and im choosing not to. Its possible that comodo could work its way through some issues that may appear but should I risk it?

Mags
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: gyulasun on April 20, 2017, 11:41:58 PM
I looked back a couple posts and couldn't figure out what the subject matter actually is
except maybe what the topic title suggests, which is experiments on bifilar coils.
Well here's an eBook that explains what we can do with bifilar coils that hasn't been
explained anywhere else before that I can see so far.


http://eternalmotor.blogspot.com/p/genesis-of-new-energy-source_32.html (http://eternalmotor.blogspot.com/p/genesis-of-new-energy-source_32.html)

Hi Teslonian,

Sorry to chime in, I figure the author of the ebook has a youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/user/debunkified/videos (https://www.youtube.com/user/debunkified/videos)   

and during the recent years he uploaded several videos with very eye and ear attracting 
titles like  "OVER 1000% More Energy Out than IN (Joules stored)" 
or "325% Overunity Load Resistor Test "  or his latest 1 month old video:
 "Solid State Looped Overunity".   

I do not want to "debunk" him,  I respect his tinkerings but...   I think first he ought to make
a correct video on a device that  is working on principles written in his ebook
and gives abundant energy.  I do not mean he should fully reveal his device in the video
but perform correct input-output power measurements.

Gyula

PS please resize your uploaded picture on the ebook because it too big pixel numbers.
Use only maximum 1000 pixel horizontally, now you have 1350 pixel in it. 
Such big sized pictures make reading this thread very uncomfortable by scrolling right and left.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: teslonian on April 20, 2017, 11:52:33 PM

Magluvin, I don't think it's a risk, I've checked it out and it's a blogspot, which is owned my Google, there's nothing on there that is a risk. Actually it appears that he has put some effort into the design and also a growing collection of electronic information and all his designs from YouTube and older websites he's owned in the past appear to be there as well.


I have a blogspot myself and it's very limited as far as programming is concerned and you have to use their dashboard, which is extremely irritating when they add their own html after already editing and saving and then going back and deleting it, which adds something else, it's almost like a never ending editing job, so I have to commend this guy for making that site look the way he has made it look. I've made contact with the guy and he says that in his book he explains the asymmetry of bucking magnetic fields, and how to utilize them in a way not explained anywhere else, so, keeping an eye on it.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: teslonian on April 21, 2017, 12:06:45 AM
Gyula Sun, sorry bout that, I didn't realize that image was so huge, I replaced it with a smaller one, with the dimensions for you to see, but it still ends up being quite large, so I'm leaving it at that. For some reason I can't see any pictures in this topic on this forum with my phone, and I do see a flash of that Comodo antivirus or whatever, not sure what that is or where it's coming from just by clicking the attachment of the eBook cover, even on my phone with my own carrier.
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: gyulasun on April 21, 2017, 12:14:44 AM
Hi Teslonian,

Very good job on the picture size, now it perfectly fits, thank you.

I wish Marc could learn about the other parts of my above post too...  8)

Gyula
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on May 08, 2017, 08:25:27 PM
Im building Nelson Rocha's circuit he has posted a few years ago. In search for high voltage hairpin impulses.

Tr2 is a step up tranformer (230V-5V in reverse)

capacitors at the base and the 4700pF need to bee 400V rating
diodes ultra fast.

the ring toroid 1:1 is a joulethief with the darlington. creating pulses in the step up transformer.

waiting for some parts...

with high enough current/voltage the sine wave (expected) transforms into pulses (i hope...)
Title: Re: Some Bifilar coil experiments
Post by: evostars on May 08, 2017, 08:54:33 PM
When pulsed from both ends, at the same time, but with opposite polarity pulses, We still have a dielectric voltage rise, but now with the absence of the normally observed"static" magnetic field  (seen with a compass) at resonant frequency.

We ring a bell, with a strong impulse, short and energetic. thats why I need hairpin pulses, with high voltage.

We are use to inductive power. but this coil is about capacitive power.

MAgnetic fields are the LOSS of the dielectric field. When we spend energy we produce magnetic fields.

So to CREATE energy we need to stay away from producing magnetic fields, we need to produce strong dielectric fields (something the bifilar pancake tesla coil excels in).

to use the standing wave, it needs to be 180 degrees out of phase (2 resonating coils).
This can be understood by looking at 2 equal ropes. that slap together at 180 degrees out of phase, the complete rope clashes together, producing a big slap. 

I like to use a center tap, so the coils become whips. producing even higher voltage. (2 coils series connected in the middle, to ground, so the outside ends are 180 degrees out of phase).

the bang it produces with High voltage, bounces back....

When the dielectric field energy is rectified, and captured in capacitors, it can then be transformed into lower voltage.