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Solid States Devices => Resonance Circuits and Systems => Topic started by: Grumage on April 11, 2017, 12:43:24 PM

Title: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Grumage on April 11, 2017, 12:43:24 PM
Dear All.

Welcome to a new thread dedicated to Nelson Rocha and his Mini Radiant Exciter circuit. Builders most welcome.

I used the Acronym N.R.M.R.E. as it's quite a mouthful and I'm rubbish at typing !!  :)

For deeper research might I suggest a visit to Nelson's You Tube channel.

https://www.youtube.com/user/batraquioo0


Here's a couple of Nelson's videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfpG9wFw4iI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjK6OlYO9Aw

It's already very clear that the circuits in the videos differ quite strongly from the posted schematic below.... This is where you guys n gals come in!!    ;)

Investigation!!

I built a version some time ago. Video here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6lmd0HKxOw

I found this when my channel suggestions came up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iER4K1O7iMc

Nelson's work has inspired a few!  Thank you Nelson Rocha.

Good luck everyone, Graham.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: dieter on April 11, 2017, 01:33:53 PM
Thanks Grum, I'll look into it later on.
kr
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: TinselKoala on April 11, 2017, 02:26:47 PM
Do we have part numbers or at least V-A ratings for the bridge rectifiers?

Also, is the wire going through the center of the toroid, or is that overlap just drawn for convenience?


And this schematic of the internals of the TIP122 Darlington transistor belongs here.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: TinselKoala on April 11, 2017, 02:45:12 PM
Somewhere in my many JT videos I ask, and answer, the question "what happens after the light goes out". That is, when the supply voltage is no longer high enough for the JT to light up the LED(s).  The particular JT I used continued to produce an oscillation just like what you show at the end of your video-- a low voltage sinus oscillation that went on for a long time apparently without losing amplitude until it finally stopped. Without the LED being on to drain the power I guess it was in a "high Q" oscillating mode. Which of course doesn't actually explain anything, just gives it a name (which may not be correct.)

I think it was this JT but I can't find the right video showing the "dark oscs" at the moment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu3neYByYp0

I've a batch of TIP122 transistors on order, should be here in a couple of days.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Grumage on April 11, 2017, 02:46:26 PM
Do we have part numbers or at least V-A ratings for the bridge rectifiers?

Also, is the wire going through the center of the toroid, or is that overlap just drawn for convenience?


And this schematic of the internals of the TIP122 Darlington transistor belongs here.

Dear TinselKoala.

Many thanks for dropping by.

With the schematic, sadly what you see is what you get.

Your point about the wire running through the toroid is something that I had missed, perhaps we should allow for it's inclusion/removal during construction?

Cheers Graham. 
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: icarus on April 11, 2017, 03:20:44 PM
I am the author of the video mentioned by Grumage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iER4K1O7iMc

The circuit also works with a different transistor from TIP122, eg. TIP41C or other similar NPN.
I continued to experiment with this circuit: the following videos show the state of things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgDTvqFr6bY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye1-Z7lfrmM

Now I'd like to share strategies and impressions to go further with others experimenters.
Maybe a bone every now from Nelson would not be a bad thing.... 

Who knows, sooner or later, maybe
But in any case thanks to Nelson for this circuit and for all his videos

Ciao

Icarus aka Mauro aka Ciucianebbia

Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: itsu on April 11, 2017, 04:53:16 PM

I also did a replication last year together with Grumage.

I however never got this prolonged oscillation after disconnecting the base that Graham had with his setup.
Not even when using a wire through the toroid connected to copper tape around the HV radiant transformer (see 3th video).

My 3 video's of this replication are here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoG8wTYa7eU&t=7s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceAHCQpnqZU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeIrnndrdnw

My redraw of the circuit can be seen below.

Regards Itsu
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Grumage on April 11, 2017, 05:57:37 PM
Thanks Icarus and itsu.

A great start to the topic.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: TinselKoala on April 11, 2017, 11:02:33 PM
Thanks for that redraw Itsu, you saved me the trouble. Now the resemblance to some Joule Thief circuits is easier to see.

A question about the "HV Radiant" transformer though... it appears you have labelled it as a step-down transformer, with the lower voltage winding on the HV output side. Is this correct? I can't quite wrap my mind around that.

On the original schematic it looks to me like the transformer is wired as step-UP , which makes more sense to me.

Also, does the "HV Radiant" share a common ground with the Negative rail of the power supply? Or is the Negative rail "floating" and the HV Radiant grounded to Earth?
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: TinselKoala on April 11, 2017, 11:17:20 PM
The 3n247 seems like an odd choice for a bridge rectifier that is supposed to be used in an "HV radiant" output circuit. Comments?

The closest fast diodes to the MUR440 that I have on hand are UF3003. Instead of 400V, 4 A these are rated 300V, 3A. If my local supplier doesn't have the MUR440 in stock for a reasonable price (1.00 USD or less, checking tomorrow) I'll have to use the UF3003s when I get around to constructing the circuit. Or I may go "overkill" and use MUR1560 which I know he does stock for about a dollar each.  Comments?

And I intend to use a small CRT yoke ferrite for the "toroid". Comments?


I'm attaching some data sheets below.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: itsu on April 11, 2017, 11:26:56 PM

TK,

there was confusion about the direction of that transformer from the start, i expected too that it would be connected to the collector via the secondary (24V) to get a HV (radiant) signal from the primary (240V), but Graham just asked Nelson the other day in this thread:


http://overunity.com/17186/the-bifilar-pancake-coil-at-its-resonant-frequency/msg503543/#msg503543

Quote
Hi Graham,
Is the primary side of transformer that is connected ; the transformer i used is 240v x 9v normally  used in a commercial electronic inboard .

wish you the best

Nelson Rocha

So primary (240V) connected to the collector.

Concerning the used 3N247 FWBR, that was what i had laying around, not sure what Nelson used.


Itsu
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: AlienGrey on April 12, 2017, 12:10:44 AM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoG8wTYa7eU&t=7s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceAHCQpnqZU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeIrnndrdnw

My redraw of the circuit

Regards Itsu
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: TinselKoala on April 12, 2017, 12:12:47 AM
Thanks for the clarification. Now I have a couple more questions (of course!)

Does that HV radiant 3n247 still work normally when pulled out of Nelson's circuit and tested within its limits as indicated on the data sheet?

And how does the HV radiant show itself? Corona, sparks, lighting up neons or CFLs, making people feel ill, or just how?

That transformer primary-secondary thing still puzzles me. I'm wondering how the wire insulation withstands the HV stress.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Dog-One on April 12, 2017, 01:01:30 AM
When you get something slapped together Tinsel, see if you can replicate then explain this...

You apply a few volts and you will see a typical oscillator, nothing special, drawing a few milliamps as would be expected.

If you slowly increase PSU voltage, you will get to a point (between 7v & 9v) where the circuit behaves much different.  Milliamp draw will go to practically zero; the waveform will go berserk quite literally, voltages on the scope will exceed 10x probe settings or nearly so.


I built this goofy thing about a year ago and still don't comprehend what it is doing or how.  It certainly didn't appear to me to be normal.  Maybe it is.  Hopefully you can get similar results and clue us in.

Whatever Nelson was on to, he chased something most of us wouldn't think to follow.



One other little note:
  Pay particular attention to how the circuit operates when it first goes into "berserk mode", because after just tens of seconds, you will never see this again quite the same.  I think the voltages actually damage the electrolytic capacitors.  However, you cannot substitute these electrolytic capacitors with something of higher voltage rating.  The way they are designed as rolled flat plates is essential to the operation of this circuit, as though their real purpose is some sort of coil instead of capacitor.  Probably why Nelson has been doing extensive research with pancake coils--he knows what he is looking for now.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: TinselKoala on April 12, 2017, 02:40:44 AM
Hmm... OK, Dog, I'm looking forward to seeing this bad boy on my own bench. My TIP122 Darlingtons are supposed to arrive Thursday, hope they
are genuine and not some recycled rebadged Chinese fakes.

What you've described reminded me of a video I made some time ago with a very simple circuit from TinMan, using a Tesla Bifilar pancake coil.
I posted a link to it when I first made it and I'm kind of reluctant to post it again, what with the flame wars and all, and I don't want to
take this thread off-track.

In your build did you have the transformer and the FWBs installed when you saw the weirdness, or just what you have on the breadboard?
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: padova on April 12, 2017, 02:49:57 AM
TK,
there was confusion about the direction of that transformer from the start, i expected too that it would be connected to the collector via the secondary (24V) to get a HV (radiant) signal from the primary (240V), but Graham just asked Nelson the other day in this thread:
http://overunity.com/17186/the-bifilar-pancake-coil-at-its-resonant-frequency/msg503543/#msg503543
So primary (240V) connected to the collector.
Concerning the used 3N247 FWBR, that was what i had laying around, not sure what Nelson used.
Itsu

Then you can't get HV radiant output if transformer is connected like so.
I believe it's a misunderstanding in communication.
I'm using audio output transformer, connected so that low impedance is in collector circuit, and high impedance side is producing
nice HV over 1000V. 
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: padova on April 12, 2017, 03:48:13 AM
When you get something slapped together Tinsel, see if you can replicate then explain this...

You apply a few volts and you will see a typical oscillator, nothing special, drawing a few milliamps as would be expected.

If you slowly increase PSU voltage, you will get to a point (between 7v & 9v) where the circuit behaves much different.  Milliamp draw will go to practically zero; the waveform will go berserk quite literally, voltages on the scope will exceed 10x probe settings or nearly so.


I built this goofy thing about a year ago and still don't comprehend what it is doing or how.  It certainly didn't appear to me to be normal.  Maybe it is.  Hopefully you can get similar results and clue us in.
Whatever Nelson was on to, he chased something most of us wouldn't think to follow.

One other little note:
  Pay particular attention to how the circuit operates when it first goes into "berserk mode", because after just tens of seconds, you will never see this again quite the same.  I think the voltages actually damage the electrolytic capacitors.  However, you cannot substitute these electrolytic capacitors with something of higher voltage rating.  The way they are designed as rolled flat plates is essential to the operation of this circuit, as though their real purpose is some sort of coil instead of capacitor.  Probably why Nelson has been doing extensive research with pancake coils--he knows what he is looking for now.

I had similar effects.
 Also with capacitors 100u to base . I've cooked a couple of these.
One small 100u/16v even exploded.

But that second transformer when connected in my setup, somehow everything works better.
It's pretty obvious. As if HV has a some feedback effect on the rest of the circuit.
Just my speculations.


Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Dog-One on April 12, 2017, 04:09:29 AM
Quote from: TinselKoala
My TIP122 Darlingtons are supposed to arrive Thursday, hope they
are genuine and not some recycled rebadged Chinese fakes.

Mine are Fairchild.  I'm not certain with the TIP122s, but with the TIP120s different manufacturers use different value internal bias resistors.

Quote from: TinselKoala
What you've described reminded me of a video I made some time ago with a very simple circuit from TinMan, using a Tesla Bifilar pancake coil.
I posted a link to it when I first made it and I'm kind of reluctant to post it again, what with the flame wars and all, and I don't want to
take this thread off-track.

Grum won't allow flame wars, so speak up if you know something associated with this gizmo.  After a year of thinking about this, I'm still in WTF mode.

Quote from: TinselKoala
In your build did you have the transformer and the FWBs installed when you saw the weirdness, or just what you have on the breadboard?

I didn't connect the "low voltage" bridge, diode and cap, but I did use the transformer.
http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/410/media-1067443.pdf


The "feeling" I have is somehow voltage is turned loose, pure voltage or nearly so.  There's no current you can equate to power.  This gizmo triggers only voltage, so it's kind of like a flyback or boost convertor of sorts without the normal step-up.  That in and of itself is probably no big deal, there's plenty of contraptions able to do it.  What's weird (to me) is the way this circuit does it, where it comes from.  Longitudinal Magneto Dielectric waves?   Who the hell knows.  It makes voltage though, quite a bit of it for how it's wired up.  I'm sure with enough attention to detail you'll figure out what it's doing and why.  It would be kind of nice to me to have that mystery solved.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: itsu on April 12, 2017, 10:40:26 AM
Thanks for the clarification. Now I have a couple more questions (of course!)

Does that HV radiant 3n247 still work normally when pulled out of Nelson's circuit and tested within its limits as indicated on the data sheet?

Good question, but as i seem to not have it anymore, i can't answer. but i have no doubt it would still work normally as it never was working outside
its limits as far i had measured (except from the frequency).

Quote
And how does the HV radiant show itself? Corona, sparks, lighting up neons or CFLs, making people feel ill, or just how?

I personally never saw any of those things (Corona, sparks, lighting up neons or CFLs, making people feel ill,) but did not try the CFL's or neons.


Quote
That transformer primary-secondary thing still puzzles me. I'm wondering how the wire insulation withstands the HV stress.


The caps on the base puzzeled me as C4 has its + connected to the base, while C3 has its - connected, i changed C4 to be a bipolar elco (3th video).

The going into "berserk mode", i have noticed too, often resulting in damaging the Tip122 internally so that it still works, but not producing the initial oscillations.

It has severall states of operations depending on the supply voltage, like a continues oscillation, a packaged oscillation (where at around 8V you suddenly see the amps
go down) and again a (high amp / high frequency) continues mode which could cause some damage to transistor and/or elco's.

Itsu
 
 


Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: TinselKoala on April 12, 2017, 12:15:18 PM
So your build did not produce "HV radiant"?  Maybe that is down to the transformer connection, then (step down vs step up) as padova commented.

Yes, I noticed the cap polarity thing too. Connecting an electrolytic the wrong way around can result in exploding the cap, that's no mystery! It seems that this circuit is hazardous to components, so it's no wonder that results are not entirely repeatable on demand.

Good thing I ordered a batch of 5 TIP122 transistors, I guess.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Grumage on April 12, 2017, 12:49:38 PM

Grum won't allow flame wars, so speak up if you know something associated with this gizmo.  After a year of thinking about this, I'm still in WTF mode.


Dear Dog-One.

Damn right I won't..... Fire extinguisher at the ready !!   :)  And thank you for joining in. 

I'd just like to take this opportunity to thank all contributors so far, we're off to a cracking start.

Might I suggest that all look at Nelson's first video I linked to yesterday ( Top one ) what we need to try and work out is what the " extra " stuff, not shown on the schematic is doing. Is that NE 2 a safety over voltage device?

It WAS a good idea to get a batch TinselKoala, I " torched " 3 myself...... This is a JT with teeth.....

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Zephir on April 12, 2017, 01:03:08 PM
Quote
Nelson's work has inspired a few!  Thank you Nelson Rocha!

@Grumage: That's great - but what the N.R.M.R.E. circuit is supposed to do, after all? Mr. Rocha apparently didn't provide the correct circuit scheme and he did tell me twice-times explicitly, it's not overunity or selfrunner device. The alleged "radiant output" comes from rectifying diode bridge of output transformer: such an rectified output cannot generate anything special except less or more harmonic sinus, high frequencies would be blocked/distorted with slow diodes in addition. IMO even if the circuit would generate some interesting waves, its output transformer would block everything interesting into outside.

Could someone point me to the specific part of Nelson's circuit video, which demonstrates its intricacy?
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: itsu on April 12, 2017, 01:03:54 PM
So your build did not produce "HV radiant"?  Maybe that is down to the transformer connection, then (step down vs step up) as padova commented.

Yes, I noticed the cap polarity thing too. Connecting an electrolytic the wrong way around can result in exploding the cap, that's no mystery! It seems that this circuit is hazardous to components, so it's no wonder that results are not entirely repeatable on demand.

Good thing I ordered a batch of 5 TIP122 transistors, I guess.

Well, i have no idea what "HV radiant" is or how its smells or looks like, so can't really say.
I did try both directions of that transformer and in the 3th video i show the negative spikes (300V or) that it produced, and i even attached a 10mm led to it  :o   which lit up nicely.

Itsu
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: AlienGrey on April 12, 2017, 01:58:18 PM
Well, i have no idea what "HV radiant" is or how its smells or looks like, so can't really say.
I did try both directions of that transformer and in the 3th video i show the negative spikes (300V or) that it produced, and i even attached a 10mm led to it  :o   which lit up nicely.

Itsu
Hi all!  Well I don't  get any magic, strange though, see scope pic and my version in a 'birds nest' ;), all it does is charge a cap with a fancy waveform, I can make a nice spark charging a large cap 470uf 50v to 38 volts

regards AG

PS  Young Mr Zephor please discuss any questions you may have with the publisher 'Nelson'
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Grumage on April 12, 2017, 02:04:04 PM
@Grumage: That's great - but what the N.R.M.R.E. circuit is supposed to do, after all? Mr. Rocha apparently didn't provide the correct circuit scheme and he did tell me twice-times explicitly, it's not overunity or selfrunner device. The alleged "radiant output" comes from rectifying diode bridge of output transformer: such an rectified output cannot generate anything special except less or more harmonic sinus, high frequencies would be blocked/distorted with slow diodes in addition. IMO even if the circuit would generate some interesting waves, its output transformer would block everything interesting into outside.

Could someone point me to the specific part of Nelson's circuit video, which demonstrates its intricacy?

Dear Zephir.

Please remove the @ symbol, I find it personally offensive, " in your face " so to speak. I'm of an age when writing was more of a courteous nature than it has become today.

Your questions are valid and that is what this investigation is all about. Nelson gave this as a " tool " a basic starter, and one or two saw some phenomenon that perplexed us.

I'm hoping that with the help of those with a little more experience, those things that " perplexed " can be better explained.

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: AlienGrey on April 12, 2017, 03:05:45 PM
I had similar effects.
 Also with capacitors 100u to base . I've cooked a couple of these.
One small 100u/16v even exploded.

But that second transformer when connected in my setup, somehow everything works better.
It's pretty obvious. As if HV has a some feedback effect on the rest of the circuit.
Just my speculations.
Hi please note 'circuit diagram' 100uf cap is shown wrong way round mine charges up to 14.8 volts, not surprised it blew up.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: AlienGrey on April 12, 2017, 03:23:39 PM
Please be aware Nelson also offered and published this device complete with a circuit diagram and a video it was later discussed with Nelson and that is when Nelson gave us the previous circuit offering. See pic. and notice the thick white bell wire I think this is shorted out at a certain point.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Dog-One on April 12, 2017, 08:16:37 PM
Question:

Has anyone tried this rather simple circuit in a simulator to see if they can at least get the responses several of us have witnessed with actual builds?

If no such "berserk mode" can be obtained in a simulator, how do we annotate this piece of evidence?  What relationship within such a simulation has not been established?


And no, please do not remove this post.   ;)
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: TinselKoala on April 12, 2017, 08:49:53 PM
I use LTSpice and qucs, and no I haven't tried simulating this circuit. But I think the "Itsu redraw" schematic looks like it comes from a circuit simulator.

I don't think sims will usually simulate the performance of failed components or those that are used outside their specified maximum operating parameters though, so if component failure or partial failure is part of how this circuit is supposed to "work" we may be out of luck there.

Besides, Ibison's Law states that simulations can only simulate classical behaviour anyway, and if they do otherwise, (like predicting OU), there is an error somewhere.

What is the definition (Nelson's preferably) of "HV Radiant" and how is it supposed to manifest itself in this circuit, other than blowing up capacitors and transistors? The HV part I understand, I think (for me it means generally over 1kV) but what about "radiant" ? Is that OU-speak for broadband RF noise, or does it mean something else? 



I must say, when I opened this thread this morning I was rather put off by what I saw. It's enough to trigger the transformation of a nice placid TinselKoala into the dreaded Drop Bear.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Dog-One on April 12, 2017, 10:28:41 PM
I use LTSpice and qucs, and no I haven't tried simulating this circuit. But I think the "Itsu redraw" schematic looks like it comes from a circuit simulator.

I don't think sims will usually simulate the performance of failed components or those that are used outside their specified maximum operating parameters though, so if component failure or partial failure is part of how this circuit is supposed to "work" we may be out of luck there.

Yes, if a component needs to partially fail in order for the circuit to "work", then yes, it will be rather difficult to know what the next step is.  Difficult, but not impossible.

Besides, Ibison's Law states that simulations can only simulate classical behaviour anyway, and if they do otherwise, (like predicting OU), there is an error somewhere.

Well, lets suppose as I suggested, those electrolytic capacitors have an "extra" function to be coils also.  If that were to be the case, we can add some small amount of inductance to the simulation.

If the goal here is to understand this circuit, then by reaching that goal we can also improve it to where it doesn't destroy components.


What is the definition (Nelson's preferably) of "HV Radiant" and how is it supposed to manifest itself in this circuit, other than blowing up capacitors and transistors? The HV part I understand, I think (for me it means generally over 1kV) but what about "radiant" ? Is that OU-speak for broadband RF noise, or does it mean something else? 

If I were to take a stab at it, I'm guessing his "HV Radiant" is along the lines of the attached image.  Whether this stuff is real or imaginary is semi-moot.  What would be important to know is if "HV Radiant" can have an effect on classical behavior in some fashion.  I'll give you a little case in point that Graham would appreciate:

I was playing fetch with my shepherd today as I have done for years.  This dog can anticipate and track the bounce of the ball with extreme precision.  It's almost uncanny how she positions herself in just the right place.  Today, I did something that totally blew her formulas out of the water.  I put backspin on the ball when I threw it.  The ball would hit the ground and pull back towards me.  That simple change completely ruined her ability to predict where the ball would track.  The classical bounce was no longer there.  But after some time, she did begin to make adjustments allowing her to catch the ball.

So my hope is we can also make some adjustments as to how we think about these circuits.  I'm not suggesting we open our minds to the point our brains fall out, but just make small adjustments and see if we are able to catch the ball.

I must say, when I opened this thread this morning I was rather put off by what I saw. It's enough to trigger the transformation of a nice placid TinselKoala into the dreaded Drop Bear.

Graham will have it all cleaned up by tomorrow.  Don't anyone sweat the small stuff.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: itsu on April 12, 2017, 10:46:14 PM
I use LTSpice and qucs, and no I haven't tried simulating this circuit. But I think the "Itsu redraw" schematic looks like it comes from a circuit simulator.

Yes, it was drawn up using MultiSIM BLUE (which you can get via Mouser.com  here (http://www.mouser.com/multisimblue/support/support/getting-started) ) but not for simulating as that is an art on its own which skills i do not have.


Quote
What is the definition (Nelson's preferably) of "HV Radiant" and how is it supposed to manifest itself in this circuit, other than blowing up capacitors and transistors? The HV part I understand, I think (for me it means generally over 1kV) but what about "radiant" ? Is that OU-speak for broadband RF noise, or does it mean something else? 

As far is i understand, yes, its OU-speak for broadband RF noise. but hopefully Nelson is willing to explain this.



Quote
I must say, when I opened this thread this morning I was rather put off by what I saw. It's enough to trigger the transformation of a nice placid TinselKoala into the dreaded Drop Bear.

Hopefully the nice placid TinselKoala in you prevailed


Itsu
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: icarus on April 13, 2017, 08:08:27 AM
Hello,
    I mounted on the bread board a copy of the circuit with different components and the result is almost the same, about 360 volts no-load (220 volts with the LED lamp load) output HV and tens of volts on the "charger" LV output; wave frequencies between 10 and 15 KHz.
Does not always work on the first shot, it is necessary to find a particular point between voltage, amperes, components used to obtain the oscillation and the output voltage peak. For me 5.5 volt 0.3-0.5 A.
As others have pointed out, sometimes the oscillation is fleeting and I burned a lot of transistors in the test.
Even by varying the transformer (9, 12 or 24 volt primary, secondary 240 volts) or the diodes bridge or transistor or the toroid (2 to 6 inches) does not change much.
I believe that this circuit is only a starting point in the work of Nelson and that he has used this as a starter to generate HV that in another way it is managed.
The point now is this: what we do with this HV?
In itself the circuit does not self-running:  I tried to loop using the energy in HV output with a step-down transformer and that of the LV output with capacitors without result. Other ideas ?
What do the Kapanadze boys with high voltages? How to play with this type of energy?
As we move forward at this point?

Icarus
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: TinselKoala on April 13, 2017, 08:24:39 AM
Hello Icarus
Thanks for your report, very interesting, I had no idea so many people were working on this. I hope you don't mind some questions.

How did you connect your transformer primary and secondary? I am still unsure about that.

Did your diode bridge on the HV end still work normally when removed from this circuit and tested within its normal operation range?

Do you think the main purpose of this circuit is to generate HV, or is the charger side the main purpose?

I read that you tried self-looping from both outputs. Did you try battery charging instead of cap charging, and then running the circuit from the battery while charging another one?

Do you have any scopeshots you could share?

Thanks in advance--
--TK

Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Grumage on April 13, 2017, 12:34:21 PM
Good morning all.

I've just read that Chet has suffered a re occurrence of his recent problem, I would openly like to wish him well and a speedy recovery. Get well soon Chet.

What's the consensus? A quick zip around with the vacuum? Tidy the thread, so to speak?

That's all for now folks.

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: citfta on April 13, 2017, 01:20:27 PM
Good morning all.

I've just read that Chet has suffered a re occurrence of his recent problem, I would openly like to wish him well and a speedy recovery. Get well soon Chet.

What's the consensus? A quick zip around with the vacuum? Tidy the thread, so to speak?

That's all for now folks.

Cheers Graham.

My vote is a yes.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Jimboot on April 14, 2017, 01:26:47 AM
Good morning all.

I've just read that Chet has suffered a re occurrence of his recent problem, I would openly like to wish him well and a speedy recovery. Get well soon Chet.

What's the consensus? A quick zip around with the vacuum? Tidy the thread, so to speak?

That's all for now folks.

Cheers Graham.
Bloody hell Chet take care. Grum please keep be strict. Delete this too.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: icarus on April 14, 2017, 08:07:13 AM
Some answers to TK
How did you connect your transformer primary and secondary? I am still unsure about that.

If you want to HV, the primary on collector of the transistor and on the positive;  on the secondary you have HV

Quote from: TinselKoala
Did your diode bridge on the HV end still work normally when removed from this circuit and tested within its normal operation range?

I used a diodes bridge made of 1N4007 and another of SF28 (fast diodes 2a 600 volts); diodes continue to operate normally

Quote from: TinselKoala
Do you think the main purpose of this circuit is to generate HV, or is the charger side the main purpose?

I think this circuit is a HV generator (or radiant energy generator, whatever that means) and that the charger side is a side effect

Quote from: TinselKoala
I read that you tried self-looping from both outputs. Did you try battery charging instead of cap charging, and then running the circuit from the battery while charging another one?

I tried to charge a battery on the LV output and another battery on the output of the step down transformer, in turn connected to the HV output: the batteries charging but more slowly than if they have a power supply (another battery)  that feeds everything


Quote from: TinselKoala
Do you have any scopeshots you could share?

I'm working on it. Something you can find in my previous videos

On the bench now.

Ciao

Icarus
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: TinselKoala on April 14, 2017, 01:47:02 PM
Thanks Icarus.

Just one more:

Quote
If you want to HV, the primary on collector of the transistor and on the positive;  on the secondary you have HV

Let's be very specific here: By "primary" do you mean the 24v side, and "secondary" the 240 volt side of the transformer?



I'm used to thinking about transformer windings as Primary = the driven or input side of the transformer, and Secondary = the output side of the transformer, so using my "definition" whichever side of the transformer is connected to the collector and positive rail is the "primary".
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: icarus on April 14, 2017, 02:00:23 PM

Let's be very specific here: By "primary" do you mean the 24v side, and "secondary" the 240 volt side of the transformer?

Yes
Primary 24 v
Secondary 240 v
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Grumage on April 14, 2017, 02:14:10 PM
Bloody hell Chet take care. Grum please keep be strict. Delete this too.

Remove a message of goodwill??

Not B****y likely mate.....

He wrote in an amazingly poor Ozzie accent!!

                               :)
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: itsu on April 14, 2017, 02:24:45 PM
Yes
Primary 24 v
Secondary 240 v


Hmmm,  in my part of the world, the 240V would normally be the primary.

Itsu
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Grumage on April 14, 2017, 04:01:36 PM
Dear All.

Attached is a photo of bits " missing " !!
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: TinselKoala on April 14, 2017, 05:26:37 PM

Hmmm,  in my part of the world, the 240V would normally be the primary.

Itsu

Sure, because normally (in any part of the world) with a step-down transformer you'd connect the 240 volt winding to the power source, and take the 24 volt winding to supply your load.

But it is certainly possible to connect the 24 volt winding to an AC power source of the right voltage and impedance, and then connect the 240 volt side to a compatible load. In this case (step-up) wouldn't you consider the 24 volt side the "primary"? What if the same transformer were labelled as a "step up" transformer rather than a "step down" transformer, would that make a difference in which side is called "primary" ?

This is why it is important to be very specific in questions and answers, particularly since we are dealing with many languages and many parts of this world.

I would like to get some clarity from Nelson himself on this issue. Which way does Nelson say the transformer should be connected, and please answer by using the words "24 volt winding" and "240 volt winding" instead of "primary" and "secondary". This way there can be no ambiguity... I hope.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: TinselKoala on April 14, 2017, 05:37:00 PM
Dear All.

Attached is a photo of bits " missing " !!

So are you saying we do not actually have the complete schematic? Or that this device in the photo is not even the same one we have the schematic for?

If it is "just" a mini exciter radiant thing, I have a much simpler schematic that actually works, is repeatable,  and doesn't cause components to fail. It also looks much cooler.

OK, I need some clarity here.
 
1. Just what are the claims made for Nelson's circuit that we are examining here, other than that it causes components to fail and makes funny scopetraces?
2. Do we have the correct and complete schematic?
3. Which way around does _Nelson_ say the transformer needs to go, using the "24 volt" and "240 volt" winding terms, not "primary and secondary"?


Sorry if I seem a bit snippy this morning. I've been feeding trolls and while that is all good fun, it does get rather tiresome at times.


 
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Zephir on April 14, 2017, 05:48:35 PM
Quote
OK, I need some clarity here.
 
1. Just what are the claims made for Nelson's circuit that we are examining here, other than that it causes components to fail and makes funny scopetraces?
2. Do we have the correct and complete schematic?

Sorry if I seem a bit snippy this morning. I've been feeding trolls and while that is all good fun, it does get rather tiresome at times.

Actually you just got finally relevant here. I did ask the same questions before two days already here - and I was deleted from here  with @grumage for being "offensive", "impatient" and "off topic" ("just wait, we are friends on background you know"). Whereas in fact I just denominated the problem of many threads in this forum clearly.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: TinselKoala on April 14, 2017, 06:15:48 PM
Zephir:

Go away, unless you are willing to BUILD, TEST AND REPORT.

And aren't you supposed to be ignoring me?
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Grumage on April 14, 2017, 06:17:21 PM


If it is "just" a mini exciter radiant thing, I have a much simpler schematic that actually works, is repeatable,  and doesn't cause components to fail. It also looks much cooler.

OK, I need some clarity here.
 
1. Just what are the claims made for Nelson's circuit that we are examining here, other than that it causes components to fail and makes funny scopetraces?
2. Do we have the correct and complete schematic?
3. Which way around does _Nelson_ say the transformer needs to go, using the "24 volt" and "240 volt" winding terms, not "primary and secondary"?

Sorry if I seem a bit snippy this morning. I've been feeding trolls and while that is all good fun, it does get rather tiresome at times.

Dear TinselKoala.

Quote
So are you saying we do not actually have the complete schematic? Or that this device in the photo is not even the same one we have the schematic for?

That's correct. I did mention that in my opening post.

Quote
2. Do we have the correct and complete schematic?

No, we don't.

Quote
3. Which way around does _Nelson_ say the transformer needs to go, using the "24 volt" and "240 volt" winding terms, not "primary and secondary"?

From my last correspondence with Nelson I'm pretty sure he was suggesting the 240 V side was connected in series with the source.


Quote
Sorry if I seem a bit snippy this morning. I've been feeding trolls and while that is all good fun, it does get rather tiresome at times.

Trolls eh?  You should join me in " Tamriel " on the European Megaserver.... I prefer bashing them. They don't come back !!   :)

And finally..... A big thank you to Itsu.... My first post with individual quotes.....

Cheers Graham.

Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: TinselKoala on April 14, 2017, 06:41:18 PM
Er... OK, thanks.

So permit me to review the state of affairs as I see them:

1. We don't know what the claims are
2. We don't have the actual schematic
3. The connection of the 240 volt side of the transformer makes no sense if the output is supposed to be "HV radiant"
4. We have experimental reports that there is no "HV radiant" with the transformer connected that way but there is "HV radiant" if it is connected in the logical manner with the 24 volt side connected to collector and power rail.
5. The circuit causes components to fail partially and completely, and makes uninterpretable scope traces .... sometimes.

I am 100 percent willing to work on this, I have already spent a little bit of time and money on it, I have the transistor and I've wound the "toroid". But how am I supposed to proceed further?  What exactly is going to be the hypothesis under test here?

I am starting to agree with Zephir, and that really worries me.   :-\
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: AlienGrey on April 14, 2017, 08:59:28 PM
Er... OK, thanks.

So permit me to review the state of affairs as I see them:

1. We don't know what the claims are
2. We don't have the actual schematic
3. The connection of the 240 volt side of the transformer makes no sense if the output is supposed to be "HV radiant"
4. We have experimental reports that there is no "HV radiant" with the transformer connected that way but there is "HV radiant" if it is connected in the logical manner with the 24 volt side connected to collector and power rail.
5. The circuit causes components to fail partially and completely, and makes uninterpretable scope traces .... sometimes.

I am 100 percent willing to work on this, I have already spent a little bit of time and money on it, I have the transistor and I've wound the "toroid". But how am I supposed to proceed further?  What exactly is going to be the hypothesis under test here?

I am starting to agree with 'Old Ford Zephir' was it a car ? , and that really worries me.   :-\
Hi before you start 'don't forget' some of this extra energy involves somehow pulsing an earth wire and collecting energy from the earth wire.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Dog-One on April 14, 2017, 09:13:38 PM
1. We don't know what the claims are
2. We don't have the actual schematic
3. The connection of the 240 volt side of the transformer makes no sense if the output is supposed to be "HV radiant"
4. We have experimental reports that there is no "HV radiant" with the transformer connected that way but there is "HV radiant" if it is connected in the logical manner with the 24 volt side connected to collector and power rail.
5. The circuit causes components to fail partially and completely, and makes uninterpretable scope traces .... sometimes.

Point by point:

1.  Nelson claims this circuit is a learning tool that he has permission to document and share publically.  He also claims that if fully understood, it can be modified to function the way his "Amazing Oscillator" circuit behaves, i.e. self running.

2.  The schematic posted by Graham is correct.  It's the one I used.

3.  The line transformer I connected as step-up.  Voltages on the secondary will be higher than the voltages measured within the circuit around the transistor and toroid.

4.  Again, my assumption was step-up.

5.  It can and probably does damage components--have spare caps & transistors handy.  A current regulated power supply with gentle fine control of adjustments is a must.

I am 100 percent willing to work on this, I have already spent a little bit of time and money on it, I have the transistor and I've wound the "toroid". But how am I supposed to proceed further?  What exactly is going to be the hypothesis under test here?

First, can you get this gadget to go into "berserk mode"?   Second, can you explain why it behaves that way?

Final consensus, is there anything we have missed in classical electronic engineering that would leave you to believe Nelson's claim that this circuit can be modified in such a way as to be a self runner?  Working purely under the assumption Nelson is on-the-level, what are we missing if we determine there is nothing here of significance?

I am starting to agree with Zephir, and that really worries me.   :-\

He's a young guy, impatient and eager, with everything pretty much black or white.  I remember those days.

Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Dog-One on April 14, 2017, 09:27:11 PM
I think this quote is relevant to the discussion here, though it was specific to his Radiant Box device.

Quote from: Nelson Rocha
No, I do not charge caps with the output, but I discharge caps to have output :) but that caps first need to be full  :)  is the reason to I say that systems have more that one stage and should not be understood like just one process, but a combination of several process.

Yes, I use nano pulses but made by own design; their action is to create a heavy unipolar pulse that make a very sharp pulse in a coil in a combination of series/parallel resonance. That effect is managed by a parametric oscillator that regulate how stronger is the pulses applied to a coil and the frequency used.  The pulses will increase in their intensity after some seconds system start working and charges start be collected in other stage of circuit, make pulses going stronger and stronger, oscillation after oscillation.

Hope my answers could help you about your doubts
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Grumage on April 14, 2017, 09:31:41 PM
Succinct!!
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: itsu on April 14, 2017, 09:33:34 PM

And finally..... A big thank you to Itsu.... My first post with individual quotes.....

Cheers Graham.

Way to go Graham, your answers to questions now leave no room for confusion.



TK,

i think you pretty well summed up the present state of this circuit.
My hope was that Nelson would chime in here, but appearently he does not.

Concerning the "hypothesis under test", what about: trying to determine once and for all what this "HV radiant" is, and if it exists at all.
How it manifests, how it smells and looks like etc.,  many OU researchers would be very pleased to finally know.

I was hooked when i saw that Grumage his setup kept on running for severall minutes, something that i could not replicate.

Itsu
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Dog-One on April 14, 2017, 10:19:03 PM
My hope was that Nelson would chime in here, but appearently he does not.

Nelson has a big project and demonstration for his employers due in August.  I wouldn't expect him to have all that much spare time.

Concerning the "hypothesis under test", what about: trying to determine once and for all what this "HV radiant" is, and if it exists at all.
How it manifests, how it smells and looks like etc.,  many OU researchers would be very pleased to finally know.

Answers to the $64,000 question already?

One step at a time.

Change, Divergence and Curl.  Master those concepts and any limitations you currently have will be eliminated.   ;)
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: itsu on April 14, 2017, 10:27:07 PM

Quote
Change, Divergence and Curl.  Master those concepts and any limitations you currently have will be eliminated.   ;)



Wise words Dog-one,   you should change your handle to Grasshopper  ;)

Itsu
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 14, 2017, 11:31:23 PM
Hi to all ,
Since begin i could know that some doubts will appear; when Grumage ask me by authorization to publish the diagram ,myself advice in that moment Grumage that i could not support in any way that thread .

I simple don't have time to join and collaborate in the right way at moment.
Like i already told before this circuit is easy replicate , and is only to be object of study of some effects like electric power transfer without wires,  transmission by one wire , exponential oscillations by negative resistance, and covering other interesting aspects to people that go more deeply in the study of this circuit . Myself study and create variants of this type of circuit under 2 years :) yes .. :)
But i never say that is a OU circuit or any other claim like “free energy device”  but a nice cheap project to OU starter’s beginners enthusiast in this field . This circuit “compress” several effects already described .

About the circuit , i already hear from some persons that already start replicate the circuit  about unstable mode operation. Well …. I will talk about my own experience , with my own circuits .
I never have any transistor burned or any diode when circuit run properly tuned ;  but of course it could happen its like other circuits could fail , and my advice is use nice connections between components or small PCB.
About the transformer i confirm that transformer should be connected in step up mode . Example “24v to 240v” in that way no more confusion about how should be connected the transformer .

I just arrive in last days in my country Portugal to make some days of holiday  , and after i start read the thread ,  i have the opportunity  of reactivate one of those circuits that i store in my home Workshop , and he continue work like a charm :) . I make a video with some tune processing of circuit, and other points ,  is “free of charge” to people interested .
https://goo.gl/photos/YqGPUot2a2mATprz8

I Really appreciate see that exist more people that i could imagine interested in that circuit .
Best luck to all

Nelson Rocha

Nelson Rocha
 
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Grumage on April 15, 2017, 12:05:05 AM
Dear Nelson.

I was just " turning in " when I spotted your post here. I would like to thank you for your input, I know you can't share more and that is appreciated.

I'll check out your video tomorrow.

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Dog-One on April 15, 2017, 12:49:41 AM
I second that Graham.  Thank you Nelson.

Also love them pancake coils.   :)


hugs
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Zephir on April 15, 2017, 12:56:51 AM
What is this and how it's related to circuit diagram?

Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Zephir on April 15, 2017, 02:17:39 AM
Quote
That effect is managed by a parametric oscillator that regulate how stronger is the pulses applied to a coil and the frequency used.

The parametric oscillators are important part of ferrorezonance and many overunity circuits. The general idea is, the energy stored within coil or transformer is proportional the current and the momentary inductance of coil. At the case of ferrite coil, this inductance can be tuned in wide range with magnetic field, which may or may not come from that coil, i.e. which can be of external origin - so it can change independently like the adjustable parameter of circuit (from this its "parametric" denomination follows).

As you can see at the picture above, the toroid core is stuffed with smaller axial coil, the winding of which remains oriented perpendicularly to the winding of toroid transformer. Those who know the theory of coils probably know, that these two coils have very little chance to affect each other with voltage induced: the magnetic field of torus remains closed into itself and the magnetic field of smaller coil remains perpendicular to the toroidal one. Therefore, once the current inside the axial coil changes, then only magnetic saturation of toroidal coil can change - but no back EMF and current can be induced into it and no electric energy can get wasted within the circuit.

If the Nelson Rocha's device works as I think it works, then the toroid coil gets energized when the axial coil is switched on. Its current and magnetic field saturates the ferrite within torus in such a way, its inductance remains low. Therefore low energy is actually required for raising current through toroidal coil during this period. Once the current through coil reaches its maximum, then the current inside axial coil gets switched off and the magnetic permeability of ferrite spontaneously increases, because the thermal fluctuations within material have no other option, than to reorient its magnetic domains randomly. This is spontaneous entropic process and it usually wastes energy, but in this sneaky arrangement it raises the energy of coil instead. How?

We shouldn't forget, that the toroid coil is already passed with high current from previous half of cycle, therefore the increasing permeability increases the inductance of coil and energy of magnetic flux under current given and this energy is provided with quantum fluctuations of vacuum "for free". The transformer gets charged into account of thermal fluctuations: the power returned by current back into circuit during its discharge will be higher than the power used for its charging, because its inductance modulated with axial coil will be also lower during charging of transformer than during its discharging.

Note that the current passing through small axial coil must be relatively high for to achieve saturation of both cores. There undoubtedly exist better but more complex arrangements of ferrite cores, which close magnetic circuits of both coils more consequentially. But because the axial coil is small and wound with short thick wire, its energy loses also remain low. Anyway this explains, why the circuit goes into "berserk mode" just above certain level of input power, because the saturation curve of ferrites is not linear. This saturation can be helped with additional magnet embedded into a magnetic circuit - which is the trick, which for example 2SGen of J.L. Naudin or MEG of Thomas Bearden are using.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Grumage on April 15, 2017, 02:00:52 PM
Dear Zephir.

Thank you for your last post.

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: AlienGrey on April 15, 2017, 02:27:03 PM
What has the above really got to do with Nelsons thread I'm asking myself ! Zephyr ?
           *****   Please! go away and stop filling the thread up with unnecessary irrelevant clutter.  *****

I must say I watched Nelson's video which was nothing much like the original card but thanks anyway as I got to understand what he is doing. I think having a 'radio amateurs license degree' would help explain what's going on here much better and I expect Nelson has really done his homework and has a good memory ;).
 Could it be the whole thing is an exciter output device RFC and Aerial load coil radiant energy transmitter ?


Regards AG
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Zephir on April 15, 2017, 03:08:25 PM
Quote from: DogOne
Pay particular attention to how the circuit operates when it first goes into "berserk mode", because after just tens of seconds, you will never see this again quite the same.  I think the voltages actually damage the electrolytic capacitors

IMO from all circuit schematics follows, that the Darlington TR1/Q1 isn't protected against negative voltage spikes to base (passing through C4 capacitor and R1 trimmer). The PN junction of base electrode must be very narrow for to enable carriers drift and high amplification and therefore its reverse voltage remains limited to only few volts. The diode D2/D5 protects only electrolyte capacitors but not base.

Quote from: DogOne
He's a young guy, impatient and eager, with everything pretty much black or white.  I remember those days.

You see - and I wouldn't hurry with replication of Nelson's circuit without its understanding instead, until I wouldn't have lotta spare transistors... You omitted the inconspicuous but substantial collector wire passing the toroid coil in your replica (http://overunity.com/17220/n-r-m-r-e-an-investigation/dlattach/attach/163425/image//). Without it the circuit cannot run as a parametric oscillator and its increased inductance also protects the transistor against voltage spikes (the toroid serves as a massive ferrite bead on the cable).

The mine and your definitions of impatience and eagerness may therefore differ: I'm quick and impatient - but with cautiousness only.

Quote from: AlienGrey
go away and stop filling the thread up with unnecessary irrelevant clutter

Says the truly right guy... ;-)
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Dog-One on April 17, 2017, 07:50:52 AM
A couple more items I dug up.  (While hunting for Verpies' totem pole lossless clamp circuit)
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Zephir on April 17, 2017, 04:37:43 PM
OK - but as I said, Nelson Rocha probably drew his wire through toroid (http://overunity.com/17220/n-r-m-r-e-an-investigation/dlattach/attach/163395/image//) coil for a reason - not just for saving space at his picture..;-)
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 18, 2017, 02:14:34 PM
A couple more items I dug up.  (While hunting for Verpies' totem pole lossless clamp circuit)

Hi Dog , hope you are nice , that circuit that you show in photo is other variant of same circuit , but unfortunately i don't have that circuit with me :(, i send some months ago to a friend in USA to him replicate  .   In general the two circuits only have some small differences but the base of operation is basically the same .
Wish you all the best ;)

Nelson Rocha


 
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: TinselKoala on April 20, 2017, 10:31:48 AM
Progress report:

Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Jimboot on April 20, 2017, 10:49:33 AM
Very nice, almost steampunk.  Are they the same gauge on both winds? They look uneven.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: TinselKoala on April 20, 2017, 11:31:33 AM
First light.

Well, it makes one hell of a Joule Thief, I'll say that much for it. 2.1 volts and about 210 mA input, lights up a NE-2 neon brilliantly. One "typical" Collector trace shown on the scopeshot. Adjusting the pot causes some radical changes. Still exploring.


Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: TinselKoala on April 20, 2017, 11:33:52 AM
Very nice, almost steampunk.  Are they the same gauge on both winds? They look uneven.

No, not the same gauge, the thin stuff is #27 and I don't know what the thicker stuff is. I would have used the thicker stuff all around but I ran out after one winding of 50 turns.

The core is a small CRT deflection yoke. I also have some smaller ferrite toroids wound and ready to swap in.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Grumage on April 20, 2017, 12:17:00 PM
Dear TinselKoala.

Excellent.....

I'll reply later, this last fortnight has been a seemingly never ending childminding session!! :)
Last day today, at least for this week.

Nice rising bounce..... As Dog-One has mentioned already be very vigilant as you raise the input voltage.

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Jimboot on April 20, 2017, 12:31:05 PM
No, not the same gauge, the thin stuff is #27 and I don't know what the thicker stuff is. I would have used the thicker stuff all around but I ran out after one winding of 50 turns.

The core is a small CRT deflection yoke. I also have some smaller ferrite toroids wound and ready to swap in.


Wow that's bright. Are your cap values similar to Nelson's or the same? Is that an audio transformer? That trace is interesting, the ringing begins to rise just before the next pulse. Sorry for the dumb question but is there an easy way to alter the duty cycle with this build? I'm still waiting for a few parts.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: TinselKoala on April 20, 2017, 12:39:51 PM
Capacitance values are the same but I chose higher voltage ratings for the caps. I'm using UF3003 diodes instead of MUR440. I have some MUR1560 on reserve just in case but so far nothing has failed.  The little transformer is some random thing I pulled from a TV chassis, it has about the right turns ratio I think. I didn't connect the FWBridge on the output yet, just testing with the neon to show some output in a dramatic way. I imagine that open-circuit the output will rise to "HV radiant" status if the little transformer can take the strain.
The pot varies all kinds of things: duty cycle, frequency, that weird ringing, input current draw, peak voltage at collector.... the interplay between input voltage and what the pot does is very interesting. I put a heatsink on the transistor and have tried input voltages up to 5 v but it seems to work "better" at much lower voltages. Depending of course on your definition of "better". I put a switch in series with the base connection to make it easy to "unplug" the base but I have not seen any oscillations continuing after base is disconnected. Yet.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: tinman on April 20, 2017, 12:41:07 PM
First light.

Well, it makes one hell of a Joule Thief, I'll say that much for it. 2.1 volts and about 210 mA input, lights up a NE-2 neon brilliantly. One "typical" Collector trace shown on the scopeshot. Adjusting the pot causes some radical changes. Still exploring.

TK
The ringing amplitude seems to be increasing,before your transistor switches on again.
Is this correct?.


Brad
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: TinselKoala on April 20, 2017, 02:08:06 PM
TK
The ringing amplitude seems to be increasing,before your transistor switches on again.
Is this correct?.


Brad

Yes, that is correct. And if that's what one wants to emphasize, one can fiddle with input voltage and pot setting to get this effect to show up more strongly than in the scopeshot above.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: tinman on April 20, 2017, 02:44:13 PM
Yes, that is correct. And if that's what one wants to emphasize, one can fiddle with input voltage and pot setting to get this effect to show up more strongly than in the scopeshot above.

With the transistor open,what is it that is providing the energy that is increasing the amplitude of the ringing ?.

How long will it ring for,and how high will the amplitude rise,if the transistor is allowed to remain open?
 


Brad
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Zephir on April 20, 2017, 06:51:21 PM
What would you do, if you would want to keep overunity in the eyes of public untrustworthy in most inconspicuous and unobtrusive way possible? This case just follows classical scenario - the "enthusiastic" tinkering trolls will not replicate the device properly and subsequently they will dismiss it like the fake. How many times we actually did see it here? 
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Dog-One on April 20, 2017, 07:43:48 PM
tinkering trolls will not replicate the device properly

Come on now Zephir, cut Tinsel some slack here.

Tinsel has his own style that I actually quite like, because his layout is self-documenting.
One image and you have everything you need to imitate his design.


Now we need Jim and Brad to pitch-in their contributions and study what we are looking at.
There's still a possibility of an "ah ha" moment here.  One step at a time...
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: ramset on April 20, 2017, 08:03:20 PM
Zephir
Quote

the "enthusiastic" tinkering trolls will not replicate the device properly and subsequently they will dismiss it like the fake. How many times we actually did see it here?

end quote

So your actually calling builders here [more than one] liars and deceivers ...
intentionally building fraudulent replications so as to hide OU ??

Zephir Quote
What would you do, if you would want to keep overunity in the eyes of public untrustworthy in most inconspicuous and unobtrusive way possible?

end quote

is that what you just wrote here ?

Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Zephir on April 20, 2017, 08:13:22 PM
Experiments are indeed crucial for progress of overunity, but the fact you're making dull replicas of overunity devices doesn't mean, you're a builder - you can be also deceiver in very consequences. For example this troll (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4Hz4MQFzxCSGXcVcKaVsKA) presented most of "original replicas" of overunity devices from all people here and he undoubtedly makes nice profit at YouTube with them, because the "free energy" subject attracts visitors like the honey the bees.

Of course they're all naive fakes and as such not worth the attention: their very purpose is just to mislead people looking for actual overunity research.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Grumage on April 20, 2017, 08:53:00 PM
@ Zephir.

Yes, you have pushed one too many buttons. Enough is enough.

After this comment by TinselKoala this morning, I quote.

"  Yes, that is correct. And if that's what one wants to emphasize, one can fiddle with input voltage and pot setting to get this effect to show up more strongly than in the scopeshot above. "

Don't you think that every " Tom Dick and Harry " will be having another look at this inexpensive investigative tool?

I'm asking you politely, for the last time, to desist from calling our members " deceivers " and " Trolls "  any further verbal abuse from you in this thread WILL not be tolerated.

@ Grumage.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Dog-One on April 20, 2017, 09:25:06 PM
My two cents...

Here is a list of everyone that has posted in this thread thus far:

Grumage, dieter, TinselKoala, icarus, itsu, AlienGrey, Dog-One, padova, Zephir,
citfta, Jimboot, nelsonrochaa, tinman and ramset.

My suggestion is if you are on this list and haven't built the device, do it now, so
we can compare notes and get to the bottom of what it is we need to learn about
this device.  And please, do not ask Nelson to just tell us the answer.  He can give
us a thumbs up or thumbs down if he so desires.  The only way we are really going
to learn is to do our own work and think for ourselves.  Nelson would have never
put this out there if he didn't feel it was important.  Let's find out what makes it
important.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: itsu on April 20, 2017, 09:53:14 PM

I agree Graham, this Zephir character seems to be only here to provoke us, so we could do without him easily.

Regards Itsu
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Zephir on April 20, 2017, 09:56:22 PM
Quote
I'm asking you politely, for the last time, to desist from calling our members "deceivers" and "trolls"

I explained here multiple-times, why Nelson Rocha calls his device a parametric oscillator, why he draws its schemes in a way which he did and why his devices contain elements which I pointed out. Two self-claimed replicators - who otherwise deny the overunity at various places - already managed to ignore them - why this situation occurs here so routinely?

Quote
And if that's what one wants to emphasize, one can fiddle with input voltage and pot setting to get this effect to show up more strongly than in the scopeshot above

I already built many Joule-Thief circuits and saw even more of them at YouTube - so I know, their oscillations and resonance are sensitive to working point of transistors and many other parameters of the circuit. But this sensitivity still doesn't implies the overunity. It actually means nothing, until your circuit doesn't correspond this Nelson Rocha's one.

Quote
Zephir character seems to be only here to provoke us, so we could do without him easily

No doubt, that without me you would pretend overunity research here for another twenty years without problem (and also without any result). But this forum doesn't serve only for you. It's Stephan's public service to all people on the world, it consumes his money - so we all also have the responsibility in its using in most effective and rational way. This forum managed to concentrate many interesting links and ideas from outside - but frankly, its own contribution to original overunity research is quite minimal. Did you ever realize, that everything interesting in this forum has been linked / borrowed from somewhere else? During years the self-claimed "builders" here just managed to dilute this useful information in thousands of clueless posts and dumb pictures of "build progress" and "scope shots" without any tangible result.

Draw the conclusion for yourself.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: itsu on April 20, 2017, 10:44:27 PM
I explained here multiple-times, why Nelson Rocha calls his device a parametric oscillator, why he draws its schemes in a way which he did and why his devices contain elements which I pointed out. Two self-claimed replicators - who otherwise deny the overunity at various places - already managed to ignore them - why this situation occurs here so routinely?

No doubt, that without me you would pretend overunity research here for another twenty years without problem (and also without any result). But this forum doesn't serve only for you. It's Stephan's public service to all people on the world, it consumes his money - so we all also have the responsibility in its using in most effective and rational way. This forum managed to concentrate many interesting links and ideas from outside - but frankly, its own contribution to original overunity research is quite minimal. Did you ever realize, that everything interesting in this forum has been linked / borrowed from somewhere else? During years the self-claimed "builders" here just managed to dilute this useful information in thousands of clueless posts and dumb pictures of "build progress" and "scope shots" without any tangible result.

Draw the conclusion for yourself.

I do realize, and one of the contributors of that is you, as all what you have presented here up till now is linked / borrowed from somewhere else.

OU if it exists, is nothing trivial, and i think it needs sharp minds and indepth knowledge of physics and electronics bordering that of a genius to figure it out and present.
As long as these Geniuses not come forward and present their work, we the tinkerers will keep on tinkering with all knowledge we have allthough we know that it probably will
take forever this way, but at least we are following our dreams.

Happy linking.


Regards Itsu     
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Zephir on April 20, 2017, 11:11:02 PM
Quote
we the tinkerers will keep on tinkering with all knowledge we have although we know that it probably will take forever this way

I already presented my work regarding the Nelson Rocha's circuit (it's not linking, you can find this insight nowhere else on the web). But the tinkerers keep on tinkering with the knowledge THEY still have - not with knowledge WE already have. Nelson Rocha's circuit doesn't work like the classical Joule-Thief circuit, it wasn't even apparently designed so.  My troubles with its replicators here just illustrate the general problem of this forum controlled and driven with tinkerers who struggle to replicate overunity devices according to circuit schemes without any deeper insight and information already available. Such a people not only represent an obstacle for people who would utilize this information already. Because they cannot succeed with their attitude, they also represent a dangerous  deterrent case for future potential replicators - which is IMO even worse.

My stance in this matter  is very simple - if you're not constructing Nelson Rocha's device according to his own recipe, then you're simply off topic right here - no matter how much effort you already put into it - and your posts should be relocated/deleted from here. It's as easy as it is.

What I'm proposing here isn't attempt for some tyranny - but the recipe for streamlined community effort, which is still missing here. At the moment, when the successful replication of overunity devices depends on minute details, then too much liberalism becomes as harmful as the strict conservatism and adherence on principles of classical physics. Which is also IMO the reason, why the community based effort still didn't lead into any successful replication of overunity devices, despite that multiple individuals succeed with it already. More is less and ten individualist people aren't necessarily smarter than single individual, who is still able to learn from others.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Jimboot on April 20, 2017, 11:59:00 PM
FFS Zephir we've seen the coil inside the core, thanks for pointing it out and the nature of parametric oscillators. If you want to build and contribute great but name calling behind an anonymous account is cowardly and boring. So stop it or piss off.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Zephir on April 21, 2017, 12:05:53 AM
Quote
Zephir we've seen the coil inside the core, thanks for pointing it out and the nature of parametric oscillators. If you want to build and contribute great but name calling behind an anonymous account is cowardly and boring. So stop it or piss off.

Do you realize, that if the thread will ignore the parametric oscillator trick and the unsuccessful attempts of clueless replicators will dominate this thread for another ten pages, then this insight will get finally forgotten in the same way like many others in another threads? After all, the threads for Nelson Rocha's device were already here and they all ended in the same way - so that Nelson got upset with lack of interest and he leaved this forum.  I'd expect, that group of intelligent people should exhibit a bit higher consciousness, than the pile of ants who just burrow information at the visible surface of forum into an oblivion.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: TinselKoala on April 21, 2017, 12:44:16 AM
What would you do, if you would want to keep overunity in the eyes of public untrustworthy in most inconspicuous and unobtrusive way possible? This case just follows classical scenario - the "enthusiastic" tinkering trolls will not replicate the device properly and subsequently they will dismiss it like the fake. How many times we actually did see it here?

OK, that is it. I have had enough.

The people who are important here know how to contact me, or can find out from those who do know.

Bye.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Jimboot on April 21, 2017, 12:52:18 AM
Do you realize, that if the thread will ignore the parametric oscillator trick and the unsuccessful attempts of clueless replicators will dominate this thread for another ten pages, then this insight will get finally forgotten in the same way like many others in another threads? After all, the threads for Nelson Rocha's device were already here and they all ended in the same way - so that Nelson got upset with lack of interest and he leaved this forum.  I'd expect, that group of intelligent people should exhibit a bit higher consciousness, than the pile of ants who just burrow information at the visible surface of forum into an oblivion.


Ok that's it. Are we banning this coward? If not i'm off too.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Zephir on April 21, 2017, 01:17:32 AM
I'm just describing the annoying but trivial truth - the way, in which this forum is currently running.

If the replicators here will intentionally ignore the circuit differences from working originals, they will contribute to confusion rather than progress despite all their effort. We can see it at the case of cold fusion: the first wave of impatient but clueless replicators misguided and delayed its research for another twenty years. From report of Eugene F. Mallove (http://www.infinite-energy.com/images/pdfs/mitcfreport.pdf) follows, it was organized deceiving strategy of cold fusion deniers based on data manipulation. Mallove wasn't coward and he was subsequently murdered for his reveals.

We don't need to waste time with another clueless replicas of Joule-Thief circuit. The bad replica is worse here than none at all, because it will raise an impression, that the overunity isn't actually working (which is also what their replicators repeat here all the time). Such a lame (or sneaky ?) approach will deter everyone soon or later.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: webby1 on April 21, 2017, 01:31:03 AM
I'm just describing the annoying but trivial truth - the way, in which this forum is currently running.

Please only post positive information and or feedback,, look at your posts and count how many do *not* have an insult within them.

If you think the forum should work a different way then you are welcome to go elsewhere and start your own forum,, nobody is stopping you.

Thanks for the pic TK.

I may not be able to build this stuff but it is very interesting to watch and learn,, especially from those that have an innate curiosity about them.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: ramset on April 21, 2017, 01:37:12 AM
Zephir
I could imagine a person like yourself who has no original ideas and who builds nothing
or puts no actual personal effort in here [besides pushing keys on the typewriter]

I would imagine it all looks good from your house [this abuse you serve up here]

Stefan gave you your own place...
as days went by

No "takers/customers at Zephir's "BOARD"

so Zephir gets busy on his typewriter...Bombing every topic he can with "Look at Me the great Zephir"

your act is old Bud
We've seen it all before, and anyone here can see all your ignorant claims in a 5 second google search

and here we are again ??

only difference is this time
its the last time

why should we have to move this experiment[and others] to another forum ??



Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Zephir on April 21, 2017, 01:37:15 AM
My new board is dedicated merely for backup of most important posts and insights (mine and also of other posters here, which would be otherwise burrowed in trivialities) - not for free discussion.

OK, I'll refrain from posting in this thread also - let say for one month or so.
We will see, how the situation here will develop itself.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: ramset on April 21, 2017, 01:44:02 AM
No
You have to apologies for your lies against members here
in writing

or I call the Boss tomorrow [its too late now, he is snoozing]]

he will not like you chasing experimenters away from his forum

Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Jimboot on April 21, 2017, 01:44:52 AM
My new board is dedicated merely for backup of most important posts and insights (mine and also of other posters here, which would be otherwise burrowed in trivialities) - not for free discussion.

OK, I'll refrain from posting in this thread also - let say for one month or so.
We will see, how the situation here will develop itself.


No don't. Your input is no longer welcome. You can't be civil, you had your chance. Please ban him. He's shown how he operates.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Zephir on April 21, 2017, 01:53:48 AM
I can be civil, but I don't want to get feeling, someone is fucking with us here.
You can be civil, yet you can waste the time of readers who are looking for useful information and you can even misguide them - all with smile.
EOF for now.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: ramset on April 21, 2017, 02:14:01 AM
 accusations with no evidence ...

endless nonsense posts [with sprinkles [dust] of clarity]
all over the forum...

throwing stones at hardworking builders and calling them criminals against humanity ??
who purposely build to commit OU fraud??


you do indeed need your own forum and Blog, here you have become a catalyst against progress
and a liability .

I hope by this time tomorrow this will be over...


Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Zephir on April 21, 2017, 02:34:09 AM
Quote from: Ramset
here you have become a catalyst against progress

You mean progress of "builders"? No such thing exists here, wake up - no need to protect it.
I want to establish it instead - but I'm not sure, if it would be possible with existing builders here.
You can't teach an old dog new tricks and your reactions aren't encouraging.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: citfta on April 21, 2017, 02:42:08 AM
I agree.  Zephir has done nothing since he has been here except put down almost everyone on this forum.  His total amount of real contributions to this forum?  NOTHING, NADA, ZIP.  Just a lot of false accusations and hot air.

He and Synchro should go start their own forum for Fantasy Island.  That's where they both belong.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Zephir on April 21, 2017, 03:46:35 AM
Quote
His total amount of real contributions to this forum?  NOTHING, NADA, ZIP

I see, another adviser with lotta posts... 8) Which post of yours (http://overunity.com/profile/citfta.15277/area/showposts/start/135/) do you value the most? Could you link it here please for to show us, how it should be done properly?
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Jimboot on April 21, 2017, 07:29:25 AM
Good morning Grum,
Feel like a spot of cleaning?

Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: tinman on April 21, 2017, 11:07:30 AM
Good morning Grum,
Feel like a spot of cleaning?

 ;)
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: tinman on April 21, 2017, 11:10:20 AM
Come on now Zephir, cut Tinsel some slack here.

Tinsel has his own style that I actually quite like, because his layout is self-documenting.
One image and you have everything you need to imitate his design.


Now we need Jim and Brad to pitch-in their contributions and study what we are looking at.
There's still a possibility of an "ah ha" moment here.  One step at a time...

Ok
I'll go and buy some of those transistors tomorrow morning,and whack it together.

Brad
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: tinman on April 21, 2017, 11:17:46 AM
OK, that is it. I have had enough.

The people who are important here know how to contact me, or can find out from those who do know.

Bye.

Quote JimBoot 

Quote
Ok that's it. Are we banning this coward? If not i'm off too.

Hang on--are we moving?
I only just started scavenging parts  :(


Brad

Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Dog-One on April 21, 2017, 11:20:39 AM
Ok
I'll go and buy some of those transistors tomorrow morning, and whack it together.

Thanks Brad.  I will be real curious as to what you see going on inside this gizmo.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Grumage on April 21, 2017, 12:49:41 PM
Good morning Ladies and Gentlemen.

I cannot believe what I have seen....

PRETENCE?

How many thousands of hours and money have been spent on " pretence " ?

This thread was started as an investigation into Nelson's Mini Radiant Exciter with a schematic that didn't match his video presentation, we all knew that. The idea was to work collectively in the hope that
we could find the missing pieces.

Then comes this " playful little wind " the latest COP>1 over unity policeman, breezing in and out of the many threads scattering his " cut n paste " pearls of wisdom.....

Well.... the " Hurricane " cometh..... time to blow that Zephyr into oblivion....

So.... do we carry on? TinselKoala, you have already inspired many, another stab?

Kind regards, Grum.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Jimboot on April 21, 2017, 02:16:04 PM
Thanks Grum,
 
Ok my build is shit.


:)


For starters I have not got a fancy schmancy power supply. I'm using a battery & resistors. I see the most interesting waveform at around 600mv. I'm still trying diff transformers. I have a big 25w lamp load on it atm off to get neons tomoz forgot them today DOH! Brad do Jaycar sell any ok power supplies?
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Grumage on April 21, 2017, 05:03:59 PM
It looks fine from here Jim! :)

Just a thought, how about trying Nelson's drive on a " commercially " wound transformer? As we're in the early days.

Cheers Grum.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Magluvin on April 21, 2017, 05:37:03 PM
You mean progress of "builders"? No such thing exists here, wake up - no need to protect it.
I want to establish it instead - but I'm not sure, if it would be possible with existing builders here.
You can't teach an old dog new tricks and your reactions aren't encouraging.

And you are a builder? Have you shown your projects in which to compare what a builder really is? If you do not contribute anything solid to back up your claims of others being wrong about everything, and just bashing, then you will be put on moderation and your posts wont be shown until they show you are cleaning up your act. Not a fun position to be in as your post may not be approved for days possibly and will show up in the order it was posted, so way back where nobody will notice.

If thats what you want then keep it up. ;) I have no problem at putting in the request for your moderation mode.

Mags
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: ramset on April 21, 2017, 05:44:01 PM
Mags
not that simple, he has called Builders here OU fraudsters purposely hiding the truth

EVIDENCE ??

NONE

 this has lead to members here choosing to leave instead of being called Crooks by a man who does nothing here but tell lies about members and make trouble everywhere he can.

I will be talking with Stefan in a few hours .

Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: tinman on April 21, 2017, 05:45:19 PM
Thanks Grum,
 
Ok my build is shit.


:)


For starters I have not got a fancy schmancy power supply. I'm using a battery & resistors. I see the most interesting waveform at around 600mv. I'm still trying diff transformers. I have a big 25w lamp load on it atm off to get neons tomoz forgot them today DOH! Brad do Jaycar sell any ok power supplies?

Yes they do.

https://www.jaycar.com.au/power-products-electrical/power-supply/laboratory-bench/c/402A


Brad
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: tinman on April 21, 2017, 05:47:29 PM
Mags
not that simple, he has called Builders here OU fraudsters purposely hiding the truth

EVIDENCE ??

NONE

 this has lead to members here choosing to leave instead of being called Crooks by a man who does nothing here but tell lies about members and make trouble everywhere he can.

I will be talking with Stefan in a few hours .

Easy to tell he is in the army lol.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: ramset on April 21, 2017, 05:50:53 PM
Your burning the midnight oil...

 :D
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Zephir on April 21, 2017, 05:56:17 PM
Quote
And you are a builder? Have you shown your projects in which to compare what a builder really is?
It's not my intention to interfere anyone here. But I'm not required to be a builder or broody hen for to recognize a smelling aged egg. Two replicators already posted their replicas here, that's perfect - but what I'm saying is, these replicas don't correspond the Nelson Rocha's circuits and they omitted detail (IMO crucial, actually working principle) - which has been also neglected in all previous (equally clueless) threads about Nelson Rocha's device and I don't want to repeat the same mistake here again.

Now as a moderator you have only two options in essence: to adhere on rule, that only members, who already did show their attempts for replication are allowed to affect the discussion and to comment another builders - and to wait, until some builder will finally recognize, what I posted at beginning of the forum (and with increasing time and length of thread this option will cease to zero). Or you'll adhere on strict conformance of all replicas with Nelson Rocha's device for all builders from their very beginning - no matter how "recognized" or "meritorious" they already are. Because every seemingly tiny detail may decide, whether some laborious thousand pages long thread will be finally successful or not.

You know, the generic problem with builders is, they have rather tendency to replicate circuits as a whole and to solve technical details (choice of components and so on). They're explorative and opened to improvisation without strict adherence on some theory of circuit function. And vice-versa: the theorists usually don't bother with practical details and tinkering. They don't want to wait for complete replicas - but to analyze principle of function on parts of circuit first. Now you have a chance to promote cooperation of both types of people - or to continue in existing modus vivendi of this forum, which contains mixture of theoretical proposals and builder threads - both equally clueless and arguably unsuccessful for last twenty years.

The problem of this collaborative mode is, the theorists are essentially expected to tell, what the builders should exactly do - which may or may not be palatable for members, who already gained social credit with their attempts for replication here.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Magluvin on April 21, 2017, 06:19:48 PM
It's not my intention to interfere anyone here. But I'm not required to be a builder or broody hen for to recognize a smelling aged egg. Two replicators already posted their replicas here, that's perfect - but what I'm saying is, these replicas don't correspond the Nelson Rocha's circuits and they omitted detail (IMO crucial, actually working principle) - which has been also neglected in all previous (equally clueless) threads about Nelson Rocha's device and I don't want to repeat the same mistake here again.

Now as a moderator you have only two options in essence: to adhere on rule, that only members, who already did show their attempts for replication are allowed to comment another builders and to affect the discussion and to wait, until some builder finally recognize, what I posted at beginning of the forum (and with increasing time and length of thread this option will cease to zero). Or you'll adhere on strict conformance of all replicas with Nelson Rocha's device for all builders from their very beginning - no matter how "recognized" or "meritorious" they already are. Because every seemingly tiny detail may decide, whether some laborious thousand pages long thread will be finally successful or not.

You know, the generic problem with builders is, they have rather tendency to replicate circuits already given and to solve technical details (choice of components and so on). They're quite liberal and opened to improvisation without strict adherence on some theory of circuit function. And vice-versa: the theorists usually don't bother with practical details and tinkering. Now you have chance to promote cooperation of both types of people - or to continue in existing modus vivendi of this forum, which contains mixture of theoretical proposals and builder threads - both equally clueless and arguably unsuccessful for last twenty years.

The problem of this collaborative mode is, the theorists are essentially expected to tell, what the builders should exactly do - which may or may not be palatable for members, who already gained social credit with their attempts for replication here.

Well then build it and show them how its done. If not then you have said enough to get your message out in 1 post. But you go on and on. The majority here have complained about your posts and its getting heard. So either join as a builder or just sit and watch instead of just bashing. If not you will have no choice other than to sit back and read only.

Walk the walk or talk the talk. The walk gets better results, as you are experiencing here.

Mags
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: ramset on April 21, 2017, 06:29:26 PM
well
good to have this talk

soo we are saying we're OK with the lies that this man has told about builders here?

who is OK with this ??

the builders have left and gone elsewhere .... we are OK with that ??



I will not bother Stefan if that's where this has gone, it would be pointless.

this nonsense wear's everyone thin, if we allow builders to be randomly selected for abuse and continue walking...

as if nothing happened...????

next time maybe its You ??


Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Zephir on April 21, 2017, 06:31:20 PM
As a theorist what I recommend by now is to look, how the parametric oscillator really behaves with respect to overunity.

We should therefore attach some sufficiently large toroidal coil at the board and to torture it with well defined voltage pulses from generator under oscilloscope. This toroid coil should be stuffed with another coil according to Nelson Rocha's prototype, which will be loaded with the same pulses - only delayed by phase for to prove my theorem, that the saturation of ferrite by external magnetic field during main pulse affects the BEMF energy (http://overunity.com/14847/secret-of-back-emf/), returned with main coil into circuit after pulse. I.e. to attempt to isolate and demonstrate the overunity effect, which Nelson Rocha's circuit is POSSIBLY based on. If we would have it done and this principle will be working, then the wiring of the rest of circuit may be relatively easy.

The hard-core builders can indeed still attempt for replication and reviving Nelson's Rocha circuit from scratch - but its difficult to support such an attempts with advices at distance, until we don't know, what the experimenter is actually doing. Such a complex circuit may behave like the black box and we're predestined to find its working point only by trial&error approach. And I can not still guarantee, that the circuit schemes presented in this thread really correspond the Nelson Rocha's originals from his videos. The first approach seems to be a less risky strategy for me. I'll occasionally try it myself, once my time will allow it - but not before the summer vacations.

@ramset: From history of your posts follows clearly, you're neither builder, neither theorist - you're a social creature, who just deals permanently and consistently with psychologizing and with forum members (i.e. persons) instead of technical subjects. Every discussion  with you - or just sentence about you - will make me/us more distant from my target here, which is solely technical discussion. I'm not here for building any social relationships - neither positive, neither negative. You're not interesting for me from this perspective - just deal with it.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Grumage on April 21, 2017, 06:34:19 PM
It's not my intention to interfere anyone here. But I'm not required to be a builder or broody hen for to recognize a smelling aged egg. Two replicators already posted their replicas here, that's perfect - but what I'm saying is, these replicas don't correspond the Nelson Rocha's circuits and they omitted detail (IMO crucial, actually working principle) - which has been also neglected in all previous (equally clueless) threads about Nelson Rocha's device and I don't want to repeat the same mistake here again.

You make no sense.

Please DO point out where we have deviated from Nelson's schematic, re attached.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: ramset on April 21, 2017, 06:36:54 PM
Zephir
your horrid behavior is what we're talking about here

there are builders who have left the forum due to this.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Grumage on April 21, 2017, 06:48:54 PM
Ok.

Enough is enough.

I'm locking this topic @ 18.00 BST.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Magluvin on April 21, 2017, 09:03:40 PM
You make no sense.

Please DO point out where we have deviated from Nelson's schematic, re attached.

he is saying that in the pic of the original that there is a wire that goes through the toroid other than the 2 separate windings. From what i have noticed. And he is saying that it is sort of depicted in the schematic. So it does look like he is suggesting something that some are neglecting. I may be wrong.

mags
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Grumage on April 21, 2017, 09:14:26 PM
he is aying that in the pic of the original that there is a wire that goes through the toroid other than the 2 separate windings. From what i have noticed. And he is saying that it is sort of depicted in the schematic. So it does look like he is suggesting something that some are neglecting. I may be wrong.

mags

Hi Mags.

You learn something new everyday !! I didn't realise we could continue posting.

Yes Zephir PM'd me also, with the same suggestion. My reply was that it's a matter of perception. Was the Blue toroid just drawn over the Black wire ?

In fact TinselKoala brought up the wires possible route in one of the opening posts, a fact that I replied to, thanking him and the need to make the circuit accommodate any adjustments accordingly.

Sadly the damage is done. I have been told that a lot of the guys no longer want to contribute after all the derisive comments that have been made. Understandable really.

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: tinman on April 22, 2017, 04:21:20 AM
So-are we still building?-not building?

Is the thread going to continue,or am i about to build a device,and have no where to post result's and findings?.


Brad
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Grumage on April 22, 2017, 12:17:02 PM
So-are we still building?-not building?

Is the thread going to continue,or am i about to build a device,and have no where to post result's and findings?.


Brad

Hi Brad.

I shall open a dedicated thread at OUR later. Details will be posted here.


http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3448.msg60898;topicseen#msg60898


Whilst I was snoozing it seems TinselKoala and Jim are way ahead....

I would like to apologise to the membership here for any inconvenience, it's sad, my hope was that this thread would encourage some newer members to participate.

Cheers Grum.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Grumage on April 24, 2017, 01:08:08 PM
Dear All.

Now the " ball is rolling " so to speak, I have decided to unlock this thread so that some of the unusual behaviour of this simple circuit can be explained by the more knowledgeable members of this forum.

Let's have those scopeshots/videos please.

Cheers Grum.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Dog-One on April 24, 2017, 01:11:27 PM
Good deal Grum.

First step is consider why you would want one of these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiCD2LJjA-A

Second step is to make good use of it.   ;)
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Jimboot on April 24, 2017, 02:53:26 PM
This is definitely a fun circuit to play with. I've had no trouble with blowing components. It takes my mind off work! I'll put some vids together tomorrow.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: AlienGrey on April 24, 2017, 03:57:41 PM
Thank 'Heavens' for that Mr Grum ;) the other feller keeps copying and erasing my 'posts' perhaps we can make some headway now.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: AlienGrey on April 24, 2017, 04:08:29 PM
Good deal Grum.

First step is consider why you would want one of these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiCD2LJjA-A

Second step is to make good use of it.   ;)
Hi getting one would be a good idea or at least a simple one, I'm sure we all know the advantage we could get out of it, they all appear to be around the 1000 mark.  Unless anyone has some ideas ;)

Regards AG
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: tinman on April 24, 2017, 04:22:54 PM
Good deal Grum.

First step is consider why you would want one of these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiCD2LJjA-A

Second step is to make good use of it.   ;)

A fun and simple mechanical oscillator-but that's about it.
Built my first one about 10 years ago
Circuit below for a !!radiant!! battery charger/desulfator  :D


Brad
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Grumage on April 24, 2017, 07:56:04 PM
Hi Brad.

My apologies, I seem to have removed your image by accident.

This moderator malarkey can be tricky. I was actually trying to resize my own image but hit the wrong box !! 

Cheers Grum.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: AlienGrey on April 24, 2017, 08:00:15 PM
I thought it was a spectrum analyzer, not to worry though!
    ================================
Hi all after seeing Tinman's schematic and video (Zephir's mirror Nelson thread), it's the way TK has his transformer wired with the pulsed 250-volt output. Could it be Nelson has one of the 'hot' ends wired to the copper tape on the outside of the plastic coated transformer and using it a radiant energy collector ?????

Regards AG

Nelson did a relay circuit using a two relay osc the first relay was the timer 'on /off' using L and RC thus feeding a second larger coil, got them working great but found it impossible to get Nelsons results with the rest of the circuit.

AG
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: ramset on April 24, 2017, 08:01:25 PM
Grum
I see it here ,image from TinMan post 130 above

you can remove this post after

Nah. I can do this !!   :)

Thanks Chet.
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Grumage on April 24, 2017, 08:06:17 PM
Did you miss something?

Or am I being deluded?
Title: Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
Post by: Dog-One on April 24, 2017, 08:56:23 PM
Did you miss something?

Or am I being deluded?

Quote from: AlienGrey
Hi getting one would be a good Idea or at least a simple one, I'm sure we all know the advantage we could get out of it, they all appear to be around the 1000 mark.  Unless anyone has some ideas ;)

Come on you guys, I know you can figure this out.

When you play with Nelson's circuit, do you not see the similarities?


Raise the voltage and the current goes nearly to zero.  Look familiar?

Why do you suppose it does that?


Let me toss this out there:  The current drops off because all you end up with is tiny little spikes of voltage.

For heaven sakes, this device is a nano pulser.


Now use it to make tiny magnetic impulses instead of voltage pulses, then you can really do something useful.

Can't you see why Nelson didn't need to explain anything further?  He practically spoon feed us as it is.