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Author Topic: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.  (Read 14903 times)

Offline padova

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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2017, 02:49:57 AM »
TK,
there was confusion about the direction of that transformer from the start, i expected too that it would be connected to the collector via the secondary (24V) to get a HV (radiant) signal from the primary (240V), but Graham just asked Nelson the other day in this thread:
http://overunity.com/17186/the-bifilar-pancake-coil-at-its-resonant-frequency/msg503543/#msg503543
So primary (240V) connected to the collector.
Concerning the used 3N247 FWBR, that was what i had laying around, not sure what Nelson used.
Itsu

Then you can't get HV radiant output if transformer is connected like so.
I believe it's a misunderstanding in communication.
I'm using audio output transformer, connected so that low impedance is in collector circuit, and high impedance side is producing
nice HV over 1000V. 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2017, 02:49:57 AM »

Offline padova

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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2017, 03:48:13 AM »
When you get something slapped together Tinsel, see if you can replicate then explain this...

You apply a few volts and you will see a typical oscillator, nothing special, drawing a few milliamps as would be expected.

If you slowly increase PSU voltage, you will get to a point (between 7v & 9v) where the circuit behaves much different.  Milliamp draw will go to practically zero; the waveform will go berserk quite literally, voltages on the scope will exceed 10x probe settings or nearly so.


I built this goofy thing about a year ago and still don't comprehend what it is doing or how.  It certainly didn't appear to me to be normal.  Maybe it is.  Hopefully you can get similar results and clue us in.
Whatever Nelson was on to, he chased something most of us wouldn't think to follow.

One other little note:
  Pay particular attention to how the circuit operates when it first goes into "berserk mode", because after just tens of seconds, you will never see this again quite the same.  I think the voltages actually damage the electrolytic capacitors.  However, you cannot substitute these electrolytic capacitors with something of higher voltage rating.  The way they are designed as rolled flat plates is essential to the operation of this circuit, as though their real purpose is some sort of coil instead of capacitor.  Probably why Nelson has been doing extensive research with pancake coils--he knows what he is looking for now.

I had similar effects.
 Also with capacitors 100u to base . I've cooked a couple of these.
One small 100u/16v even exploded.

But that second transformer when connected in my setup, somehow everything works better.
It's pretty obvious. As if HV has a some feedback effect on the rest of the circuit.
Just my speculations.



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Dog-One

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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2017, 04:09:29 AM »
Quote from: TinselKoala
My TIP122 Darlingtons are supposed to arrive Thursday, hope they
are genuine and not some recycled rebadged Chinese fakes.

Mine are Fairchild.  I'm not certain with the TIP122s, but with the TIP120s different manufacturers use different value internal bias resistors.

Quote from: TinselKoala
What you've described reminded me of a video I made some time ago with a very simple circuit from TinMan, using a Tesla Bifilar pancake coil.
I posted a link to it when I first made it and I'm kind of reluctant to post it again, what with the flame wars and all, and I don't want to
take this thread off-track.

Grum won't allow flame wars, so speak up if you know something associated with this gizmo.  After a year of thinking about this, I'm still in WTF mode.

Quote from: TinselKoala
In your build did you have the transformer and the FWBs installed when you saw the weirdness, or just what you have on the breadboard?

I didn't connect the "low voltage" bridge, diode and cap, but I did use the transformer.
http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/410/media-1067443.pdf


The "feeling" I have is somehow voltage is turned loose, pure voltage or nearly so.  There's no current you can equate to power.  This gizmo triggers only voltage, so it's kind of like a flyback or boost convertor of sorts without the normal step-up.  That in and of itself is probably no big deal, there's plenty of contraptions able to do it.  What's weird (to me) is the way this circuit does it, where it comes from.  Longitudinal Magneto Dielectric waves?   Who the hell knows.  It makes voltage though, quite a bit of it for how it's wired up.  I'm sure with enough attention to detail you'll figure out what it's doing and why.  It would be kind of nice to me to have that mystery solved.

Offline itsu

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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2017, 10:40:26 AM »
Thanks for the clarification. Now I have a couple more questions (of course!)

Does that HV radiant 3n247 still work normally when pulled out of Nelson's circuit and tested within its limits as indicated on the data sheet?

Good question, but as i seem to not have it anymore, i can't answer. but i have no doubt it would still work normally as it never was working outside
its limits as far i had measured (except from the frequency).

Quote
And how does the HV radiant show itself? Corona, sparks, lighting up neons or CFLs, making people feel ill, or just how?

I personally never saw any of those things (Corona, sparks, lighting up neons or CFLs, making people feel ill,) but did not try the CFL's or neons.


Quote
That transformer primary-secondary thing still puzzles me. I'm wondering how the wire insulation withstands the HV stress.


The caps on the base puzzeled me as C4 has its + connected to the base, while C3 has its - connected, i changed C4 to be a bipolar elco (3th video).

The going into "berserk mode", i have noticed too, often resulting in damaging the Tip122 internally so that it still works, but not producing the initial oscillations.

It has severall states of operations depending on the supply voltage, like a continues oscillation, a packaged oscillation (where at around 8V you suddenly see the amps
go down) and again a (high amp / high frequency) continues mode which could cause some damage to transistor and/or elco's.

Itsu
 
 




Offline TinselKoala

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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2017, 12:15:18 PM »
So your build did not produce "HV radiant"?  Maybe that is down to the transformer connection, then (step down vs step up) as padova commented.

Yes, I noticed the cap polarity thing too. Connecting an electrolytic the wrong way around can result in exploding the cap, that's no mystery! It seems that this circuit is hazardous to components, so it's no wonder that results are not entirely repeatable on demand.

Good thing I ordered a batch of 5 TIP122 transistors, I guess.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2017, 12:15:18 PM »
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Offline Grumage

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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2017, 12:49:38 PM »

Grum won't allow flame wars, so speak up if you know something associated with this gizmo.  After a year of thinking about this, I'm still in WTF mode.


Dear Dog-One.

Damn right I won't..... Fire extinguisher at the ready !!   :)  And thank you for joining in. 

I'd just like to take this opportunity to thank all contributors so far, we're off to a cracking start.

Might I suggest that all look at Nelson's first video I linked to yesterday ( Top one ) what we need to try and work out is what the " extra " stuff, not shown on the schematic is doing. Is that NE 2 a safety over voltage device?

It WAS a good idea to get a batch TinselKoala, I " torched " 3 myself...... This is a JT with teeth.....

Cheers Graham.

Offline Zephir

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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2017, 01:03:08 PM »
Quote
Nelson's work has inspired a few!  Thank you Nelson Rocha!

@Grumage: That's great - but what the N.R.M.R.E. circuit is supposed to do, after all? Mr. Rocha apparently didn't provide the correct circuit scheme and he did tell me twice-times explicitly, it's not overunity or selfrunner device. The alleged "radiant output" comes from rectifying diode bridge of output transformer: such an rectified output cannot generate anything special except less or more harmonic sinus, high frequencies would be blocked/distorted with slow diodes in addition. IMO even if the circuit would generate some interesting waves, its output transformer would block everything interesting into outside.

Could someone point me to the specific part of Nelson's circuit video, which demonstrates its intricacy?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2017, 01:03:08 PM »
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Offline itsu

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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2017, 01:03:54 PM »
So your build did not produce "HV radiant"?  Maybe that is down to the transformer connection, then (step down vs step up) as padova commented.

Yes, I noticed the cap polarity thing too. Connecting an electrolytic the wrong way around can result in exploding the cap, that's no mystery! It seems that this circuit is hazardous to components, so it's no wonder that results are not entirely repeatable on demand.

Good thing I ordered a batch of 5 TIP122 transistors, I guess.

Well, i have no idea what "HV radiant" is or how its smells or looks like, so can't really say.
I did try both directions of that transformer and in the 3th video i show the negative spikes (300V or) that it produced, and i even attached a 10mm led to it  :o   which lit up nicely.

Itsu

Offline AlienGrey

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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2017, 01:58:18 PM »
Well, i have no idea what "HV radiant" is or how its smells or looks like, so can't really say.
I did try both directions of that transformer and in the 3th video i show the negative spikes (300V or) that it produced, and i even attached a 10mm led to it  :o   which lit up nicely.

Itsu
Hi all!  Well I don't  get any magic, strange though, see scope pic and my version in a 'birds nest' ;), all it does is charge a cap with a fancy waveform, I can make a nice spark charging a large cap 470uf 50v to 38 volts

regards AG

PS  Young Mr Zephor please discuss any questions you may have with the publisher 'Nelson'

Offline Grumage

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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2017, 02:04:04 PM »
@Grumage: That's great - but what the N.R.M.R.E. circuit is supposed to do, after all? Mr. Rocha apparently didn't provide the correct circuit scheme and he did tell me twice-times explicitly, it's not overunity or selfrunner device. The alleged "radiant output" comes from rectifying diode bridge of output transformer: such an rectified output cannot generate anything special except less or more harmonic sinus, high frequencies would be blocked/distorted with slow diodes in addition. IMO even if the circuit would generate some interesting waves, its output transformer would block everything interesting into outside.

Could someone point me to the specific part of Nelson's circuit video, which demonstrates its intricacy?

Dear Zephir.

Please remove the @ symbol, I find it personally offensive, " in your face " so to speak. I'm of an age when writing was more of a courteous nature than it has become today.

Your questions are valid and that is what this investigation is all about. Nelson gave this as a " tool " a basic starter, and one or two saw some phenomenon that perplexed us.

I'm hoping that with the help of those with a little more experience, those things that " perplexed " can be better explained.

Cheers Graham.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2017, 02:04:04 PM »
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Offline AlienGrey

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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2017, 03:05:45 PM »
I had similar effects.
 Also with capacitors 100u to base . I've cooked a couple of these.
One small 100u/16v even exploded.

But that second transformer when connected in my setup, somehow everything works better.
It's pretty obvious. As if HV has a some feedback effect on the rest of the circuit.
Just my speculations.
Hi please note 'circuit diagram' 100uf cap is shown wrong way round mine charges up to 14.8 volts, not surprised it blew up.

Offline AlienGrey

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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2017, 03:23:39 PM »
Please be aware Nelson also offered and published this device complete with a circuit diagram and a video it was later discussed with Nelson and that is when Nelson gave us the previous circuit offering. See pic. and notice the thick white bell wire I think this is shorted out at a certain point.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 05:26:32 PM by AlienGrey »


Offline Dog-One

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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2017, 08:16:37 PM »
Question:

Has anyone tried this rather simple circuit in a simulator to see if they can at least get the responses several of us have witnessed with actual builds?

If no such "berserk mode" can be obtained in a simulator, how do we annotate this piece of evidence?  What relationship within such a simulation has not been established?


And no, please do not remove this post.   ;)

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2017, 08:49:53 PM »
I use LTSpice and qucs, and no I haven't tried simulating this circuit. But I think the "Itsu redraw" schematic looks like it comes from a circuit simulator.

I don't think sims will usually simulate the performance of failed components or those that are used outside their specified maximum operating parameters though, so if component failure or partial failure is part of how this circuit is supposed to "work" we may be out of luck there.

Besides, Ibison's Law states that simulations can only simulate classical behaviour anyway, and if they do otherwise, (like predicting OU), there is an error somewhere.

What is the definition (Nelson's preferably) of "HV Radiant" and how is it supposed to manifest itself in this circuit, other than blowing up capacitors and transistors? The HV part I understand, I think (for me it means generally over 1kV) but what about "radiant" ? Is that OU-speak for broadband RF noise, or does it mean something else? 



I must say, when I opened this thread this morning I was rather put off by what I saw. It's enough to trigger the transformation of a nice placid TinselKoala into the dreaded Drop Bear.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Dog-One

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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2017, 10:28:41 PM »
I use LTSpice and qucs, and no I haven't tried simulating this circuit. But I think the "Itsu redraw" schematic looks like it comes from a circuit simulator.

I don't think sims will usually simulate the performance of failed components or those that are used outside their specified maximum operating parameters though, so if component failure or partial failure is part of how this circuit is supposed to "work" we may be out of luck there.

Yes, if a component needs to partially fail in order for the circuit to "work", then yes, it will be rather difficult to know what the next step is.  Difficult, but not impossible.

Besides, Ibison's Law states that simulations can only simulate classical behaviour anyway, and if they do otherwise, (like predicting OU), there is an error somewhere.

Well, lets suppose as I suggested, those electrolytic capacitors have an "extra" function to be coils also.  If that were to be the case, we can add some small amount of inductance to the simulation.

If the goal here is to understand this circuit, then by reaching that goal we can also improve it to where it doesn't destroy components.


What is the definition (Nelson's preferably) of "HV Radiant" and how is it supposed to manifest itself in this circuit, other than blowing up capacitors and transistors? The HV part I understand, I think (for me it means generally over 1kV) but what about "radiant" ? Is that OU-speak for broadband RF noise, or does it mean something else? 

If I were to take a stab at it, I'm guessing his "HV Radiant" is along the lines of the attached image.  Whether this stuff is real or imaginary is semi-moot.  What would be important to know is if "HV Radiant" can have an effect on classical behavior in some fashion.  I'll give you a little case in point that Graham would appreciate:

I was playing fetch with my shepherd today as I have done for years.  This dog can anticipate and track the bounce of the ball with extreme precision.  It's almost uncanny how she positions herself in just the right place.  Today, I did something that totally blew her formulas out of the water.  I put backspin on the ball when I threw it.  The ball would hit the ground and pull back towards me.  That simple change completely ruined her ability to predict where the ball would track.  The classical bounce was no longer there.  But after some time, she did begin to make adjustments allowing her to catch the ball.

So my hope is we can also make some adjustments as to how we think about these circuits.  I'm not suggesting we open our minds to the point our brains fall out, but just make small adjustments and see if we are able to catch the ball.

I must say, when I opened this thread this morning I was rather put off by what I saw. It's enough to trigger the transformation of a nice placid TinselKoala into the dreaded Drop Bear.

Graham will have it all cleaned up by tomorrow.  Don't anyone sweat the small stuff.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation.
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2017, 10:28:41 PM »

 

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