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Author Topic: 3.7 VOLT BATTERY POWERS 56 WATTS  (Read 15368 times)

Offline gyulasun

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Re: 3.7 VOLT BATTERY POWERS 56 WATTS
« Reply #60 on: April 13, 2017, 12:08:24 AM »
    I just tried a plug in USB 5 volt device that is much larger than the miniature devices.  The setup powers 8 twelve volt 7 watt led  bulbs with no problem continuously!!  Latest video on the You tube.

https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=FbwxaSxw3jo

Hi magnetman,

If we consider that 56W is indeed taken out from your circuit setup by the 8 LED bulbs, then let us just assume the DC power taken from
the USB 5V device by your setup is also 56W for the shake of simplicity and assuming COP=1 only. At 5V DC output voltage from the USB device
the current involved ought to be around I=56W/5V=11 Amper.
If the LED bulbs do not consume 56W but say only 40W, the current taken from the USB device would still be 8 Amper still assuming the COP=1  'simple' case.

I suggest measuring this current where the USB device's 5V output feeds your setup. I took a snapshot from your video to show where you could insert an Ampermeter set to at least to 10A or even 20A DC current range (most DMMs are able to measure at least 10A). I indicated the where you can check the DC 5V too when the setup is running, and no need to use 2 meters if you do not have 2 at hand. You could use 1 DMM because the 5V DC voltage is unlikely to change when you measure the current. And the current will not change when you measure the 5V DC of course.

By knowing the current and voltage values we can estimate much better the power relations of your setup.
By the way, do you happen to have technical specification for the 5V USB plug-in device? maybe type?

Thanks,
Gyula

PS your video link above does not work, here is the correct one:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbwxaSxw3jo   

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 3.7 VOLT BATTERY POWERS 56 WATTS
« Reply #60 on: April 13, 2017, 12:08:24 AM »

Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: 3.7 VOLT BATTERY POWERS 56 WATTS
« Reply #61 on: April 13, 2017, 03:30:14 AM »
Hi all, this is not exactly like magnetmans setup, though has practical use value.
It is essentially a joule thief oscillator type, using a ferrite TV flyback c-core.
It is using 4 watts of input power from a 12 volt tractor battery.
Here is short video showing lighting level. 5 led bulbs are lighted, 2 are together towards the back.
https://youtu.be/C3vl1w62aaU
peace love light


Offline magnetman12003

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Re: 3.7 VOLT BATTERY POWERS 56 WATTS
« Reply #62 on: April 13, 2017, 04:08:25 AM »
Hi magnetman,

If we consider that 56W is indeed taken out from your circuit setup by the 8 LED bulbs, then let us just assume the DC power taken from
the USB 5V device by your setup is also 56W for the shake of simplicity and assuming COP=1 only. At 5V DC output voltage from the USB device
the current involved ought to be around I=56W/5V=11 Amper.
If the LED bulbs do not consume 56W but say only 40W, the current taken from the USB device would still be 8 Amper still assuming the COP=1  'simple' case.


I suggest measuring this current where the USB device's 5V output feeds your setup. I took a snapshot from your video to show where you could insert an Ampermeter set to at least to 10A or even 20A DC current range (most DMMs are able to measure at least 10A). I indicated the where you can check the DC 5V too when the setup is running, and no need to use 2 meters if you do not have 2 at hand. You could use 1 DMM because the 5V DC voltage is unlikely to change when you measure the current. And the current will not change when you measure the 5V DC of course.

By knowing the current and voltage values we can estimate much better the power relations of your setup.
By the way, do you happen to have technical specification for the 5V USB plug-in device? maybe type?

Thanks,
Gyula

PS your video link above does not work, here is the correct one:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbwxaSxw3jo
      Connected exactly as your photo I read 4.92 volts and .92 amps. All 8 lamps bright.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/US-Plug-5V-2A-USB-Port-Wall-Charger-5-Volt-2-Amp-AC-DC-Power-Adapter-Converter-/131964370462?var=&hash=item1eb9b07e1e:m:mljbrhoJcJmqGRdemPLZoNw

Offline gyulasun

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Re: 3.7 VOLT BATTERY POWERS 56 WATTS
« Reply #63 on: April 13, 2017, 04:52:27 PM »
     
Connected exactly as your photo I read 4.92 volts and .92 amps. All 8 lamps bright.
...

Hi magnetman,

Thank you very much for the cooperation!  So the input power to your setup is around 4.5W from the 5V USB plug in device. Very good!

Now we face the puzzle of what electric power the 8 LED lamps may actually consume...   8) Sure they are all bright.

I took a snapshot from one of your videos where the input and output wires can be best seen at the terminal strip.

I encircled in yellow the + (red) and - (black) wires I assume come from your capacitor C1 of your setup and I think the black wire is connected
to the Cathode of your thyristor and the red wire is connected to one of the common point of the 8 LEDs.
(Of course, the Anode of the thyristor is connected to the outcoming black wire by another piece of black wire as I guess it.)

Now if you would be so kind to check the DC voltage across the black and red wires ending in the terminal strip where I indicated a voltmeter
symbol, then we would have an idea how many volts can be in capacitor C1.  It is possible you would find fluctuating
(jumping up and down) voltage values as the thyristor discharges C1 (of course an oscilloscope would be the best here
but you may not have one).  Nevertheless, try to check the voltage there by a DMM both in the DC and AC voltage ranges. 

(Normally a sawtooth like waveform riding on a DC level rules across a puffer capacitor when it is loaded,
the frequency of the sawtooth is dictated by the thyristor: how frequently it is able to discharge the capacitor.)

The output current the LED lamps may consume could be checked in any of their common wires, in your schematic I indicate a current meter
in the negative common wire that goes to the 8 LEDs. But it could be measured also in their common positive wire.
I cannot make it out from the snapshot so I encircled two wires that may go to the LED bulbs, if these indeed go to them, then current could be
checked in any one of them.

Sorry for my 'curiosity' and for any inconvenience I may cause with such questions.  It is possible that using a DMM the true output voltage
and current fed to the LED lamps cannot be measured correctly due to their pulsed nature.
If this proves to be the case I will try to suggest another measuring method,  it would involve using a second electrolytic capacitor now
directly across the LED lamps, just across the main positive and negative output points (i.e. after the thyristor too).

Thanks, Gyula

PS1: I borrowed the LED lamp symbols from Skywatcher's nice schematic and inserted it into your schematic. We know he has used 5 and
you use 8 LED lamps of course.

PS2: I indicated the input-output connection with a long red arrow via one of the bridge diodes when your input voltage was around 12V DC
and Skywatcher mentioned it that the input could feed the LEDs via that diode. Now with your present 5V USB plug in device this is not
a problem because from 5V input the LED lamps cannot work at all.


Offline magnetman12003

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Re: 3.7 VOLT BATTERY POWERS 56 WATTS
« Reply #64 on: April 14, 2017, 12:30:50 AM »
Hi magnetman,

Thank you very much for the cooperation!  So the input power to your setup is around 4.5W from the 5V USB plug in device. Very good!

Now we face the puzzle of what electric power the 8 LED lamps may actually consume...   8) Sure they are all bright.

I took a snapshot from one of your videos where the input and output wires can be best seen at the terminal strip.

I encircled in yellow the + (red) and - (black) wires I assume come from your capacitor C1 of your setup and I think the black wire is connected
to the Cathode of your thyristor and the red wire is connected to one of the common point of the 8 LEDs.
(Of course, the Anode of the thyristor is connected to the outcoming black wire by another piece of black wire as I guess it.)

Now if you would be so kind to check the DC voltage across the black and red wires ending in the terminal strip where I indicated a voltmeter
symbol, then we would have an idea how many volts can be in capacitor C1.  It is possible you would find fluctuating
(jumping up and down) voltage values as the thyristor discharges C1 (of course an oscilloscope would be the best here
but you may not have one).  Nevertheless, try to check the voltage there by a DMM both in the DC and AC voltage ranges. 

(Normally a sawtooth like waveform riding on a DC level rules across a puffer capacitor when it is loaded,
the frequency of the sawtooth is dictated by the thyristor: how frequently it is able to discharge the capacitor.)

The output current the LED lamps may consume could be checked in any of their common wires, in your schematic I indicate a current meter
in the negative common wire that goes to the 8 LEDs. But it could be measured also in their common positive wire.
I cannot make it out from the snapshot so I encircled two wires that may go to the LED bulbs, if these indeed go to them, then current could be
checked in any one of them.

Sorry for my 'curiosity' and for any inconvenience I may cause with such questions.  It is possible that using a DMM the true output voltage
and current fed to the LED lamps cannot be measured correctly due to their pulsed nature.
If this proves to be the case I will try to suggest another measuring method,  it would involve using a second electrolytic capacitor now
directly across the LED lamps, just across the main positive and negative output points (i.e. after the thyristor too).

Thanks, Gyula

PS1: I borrowed the LED lamp symbols from Skywatcher's nice schematic and inserted it into your schematic. We know he has used 5 and
you use 8 LED lamps of course.

PS2: I indicated the input-output connection with a long red arrow via one of the bridge diodes when your input voltage was around 12V DC
and Skywatcher mentioned it that the input could feed the LEDs via that diode. Now with your present 5V USB plug in device this is not
a problem because from 5V input the LED lamps cannot work at all.
   USB input to setup  5.03 volts at 1.15 amps. (5.7845 watts)  Output from setup capacitor to bulbs  5.93 volts at 1.03 amps  (6.1079 watts)  I checked this many times and came up to the same results.
A plus .3234 watts unknown ?? power.  All bulbs lit brightly during the test.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 3.7 VOLT BATTERY POWERS 56 WATTS
« Reply #64 on: April 14, 2017, 12:30:50 AM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: 3.7 VOLT BATTERY POWERS 56 WATTS
« Reply #65 on: April 14, 2017, 02:04:59 PM »
   USB input to setup  5.03 volts at 1.15 amps. (5.7845 watts)  Output from setup capacitor to bulbs 
5.93 volts at 1.03 amps  (6.1079 watts)  I checked this many times and came up to the same results.
A plus .3234 watts unknown ?? power.  All bulbs lit brightly during the test.


Hi magnetman,

Many thanks for doing those measurements.

I would like to ask: when you said the "output from the setup capacitor to the bulbs", did you mean the 5.93V
across capacitor C1 or across the positive OUT and the negative IN and OUT points? In your schematic these
two latter points are indicated as OUT+  and  IN AND OUT-.   But I do not know where these two points are
in the snapshot photo I attached in my previous mail, I put two ? onto two wires I guess they are. 

For me the "setup capacitor" designation would mean your C1 capacitor and that the 5.93V was measured
across it, is this correct? If yes, then please measure the DC voltage output across the OUT+ and
the IN AND OUT- points too.
And if you meant the latter two points having the 5.93V across, then please measure the voltage across C1
at the terminal strip where I included a voltmeter symbol in the snapshot photo attached to my above post.

In this schema below I included capacitor C2 I would like to suggest you apply for test purposes, this capacitor
would help filter the DC output coming from C1 via the thyristor. The value of this filter electrolytic cap,
C2 could be any uF like say 470uF and higher, voltage rating could be say 40V DC (you are working at
5V input now). And between the OUT+ and IN AND OUT- points the peak voltage level (due to the thyristor
switching) would not be higher than say 15-20V peak value, (this could nicely be seen on a scope).

Sorry for my quest for such details on your setup, my aim is to help explore such circuits exhibiting unusual
behaviour i.e in your case giving "a plus .3234 W unknown?? power". Thanks again for your cooperation.

Greetings
Gyula

Offline gyulasun

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Re: 3.7 VOLT BATTERY POWERS 56 WATTS
« Reply #66 on: April 14, 2017, 02:28:05 PM »
Hi all, this is not exactly like magnetmans setup, though has practical use value.
It is essentially a joule thief oscillator type, using a ferrite TV flyback c-core.
It is using 4 watts of input power from a 12 volt tractor battery.
Here is short video showing lighting level. 5 led bulbs are lighted, 2 are together towards the back.
https://youtu.be/C3vl1w62aaU
peace love light

Hi Skywatcher,

Indeed very good lighting level in comparison to 4W input, thanks for the video too.  I guess this good impression
might come also from the good distributive nature of positioning the 5 LEDs to illuminate the most space in the room.

Because you use 120V LEDs, there is perhaps not much sense using a thyristor or any similar device to switch
energy out from your 150 uF puffer capacitor because the needed 120V is comparable to the amplitude of the
created flyback pulses that average out to that value when see that kind of load. 
To use a switch to feed a load from the puffer cap I think the puffer cap should be kept at 2-3 times 120V at least
to get usable power level for the LEDs. 
I would appreciate if you would be so kind and check the DC voltage across the 150uF cap and the total current
going into the paralleled 5 LEDs.  This data would surely help seeing more clearly the light...  8)

Thanks,
Gyula
 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 3.7 VOLT BATTERY POWERS 56 WATTS
« Reply #66 on: April 14, 2017, 02:28:05 PM »
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Offline magnetman12003

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Re: 3.7 VOLT BATTERY POWERS 56 WATTS
« Reply #67 on: April 14, 2017, 07:15:00 PM »
Hi Skywatcher,

Indeed very good lighting level in comparison to 4W input, thanks for the video too.  I guess this good impression
might come also from the good distributive nature of positioning the 5 LEDs to illuminate the most space in the room.

Because you use 120V LEDs, there is perhaps not much sense using a thyristor or any similar device to switch
energy out from your 150 uF puffer capacitor because the needed 120V is comparable to the amplitude of the
created flyback pulses that average out to that value when see that kind of load. 
To use a switch to feed a load from the puffer cap I think the puffer cap should be kept at 2-3 times 120V at least
to get usable power level for the LEDs. 
I would appreciate if you would be so kind and check the DC voltage across the 150uF cap and the total current
going into the paralleled 5 LEDs.  This data would surely help seeing more clearly the light...  8)

Thanks,
Gyula
   I took out one of my eight bulbs and measured 3.54 volts inside the lamp socket????  All lamps were lit during this test.  My room looks like  bright  daylight at 12 o'clock midnight with all lamps lit.

Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: 3.7 VOLT BATTERY POWERS 56 WATTS
« Reply #68 on: April 14, 2017, 07:50:37 PM »
Hi all, Hi gyulasun, i will do that later today.
Yes, that was the idea, i feel it is best to utilize the natural higher voltage from the flyback spikes, though i'm sure there are efficient methods to transform it down to lower voltages.
The particular ecosmart led bulbs i have, are able to light at lower voltages, like 40 volts at the capacitor.
Whereas, some of the newer bulbs i have need higher voltage, like 85 volts or higher.
I'm picking up some 40 watt equivalent philips led bulbs today to compare, non-dimmable.
I did check the voltage at the puffer capacitor yesterday, using the 5 older model, ecosmart bulbs, it was around 43 volts.
I will check the amperage later today.
peace love light

Offline gyulasun

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Re: 3.7 VOLT BATTERY POWERS 56 WATTS
« Reply #69 on: April 14, 2017, 08:18:50 PM »
   I took out one of my eight bulbs and measured 3.54 volts inside the lamp socket? ???  All lamps were lit during
this test.  My room looks like  bright  daylight at 12 o'clock midnight with all lamps lit.

Hi magnetman,

That was a good idea to access directly to the paralleled lamps if that place seemed the easiest. 
I think the 3.54V DC (meter was in DC range, right?) you measured with DMM means that the switching
frequency of the thyristor may fool the meter.  This may also mean that if you set the meter to AC range,
the shown voltage would still be a false value, not only of the frequency but the possible sawtooth waveforms.

When you connect the capacitor C2 as I indicated, perhaps it would be better to start with say 4.7uF and test
higher and higher values to find an optimum.

To tell the truth, some filtering at the 5V input side may also be needed, I am not familiar with that USB device
you happen to use, nevertheless it is expected to give a relatively clean 5V DC output which then feeds your setup.

Thanks,
Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 3.7 VOLT BATTERY POWERS 56 WATTS
« Reply #69 on: April 14, 2017, 08:18:50 PM »
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Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: 3.7 VOLT BATTERY POWERS 56 WATTS
« Reply #70 on: April 15, 2017, 04:20:39 AM »
Hi all, Hi gyulasun, trying some different bulbs without any inner circuitry at all, gutted 4 Meijer led bulbs, 5.5 watt- 480 lumens.
With 4 hooked up in parallel, it is drawing 4.4 watts.
With this setup, the capacitor is at 96.8 volts and .03 amps are showing into the led bulbs.
This particular setup as is, is not as efficient as it could be, the neon across the transistor is brightly lighted when running, so energy is being wasted there.
Thinking a bigger capacity puffer capacitor may help absorb that energy and then into the led bulbs, have to try that yet.
I'm using gutted led bulbs now, because i can't find any like these older model ecosmart bulbs, seems most all the newer led bulbs, no matter brand, have circuitry inside that does not work well with this oscillator, blinks or is just not as efficient or bright.
I will try some things to make this setup more efficient, any ideas welcome.
peace love light

Offline magnetman12003

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Re: 3.7 VOLT BATTERY POWERS 56 WATTS
« Reply #71 on: April 15, 2017, 08:55:16 PM »
Hi all, Hi gyulasun, trying some different bulbs without any inner circuitry at all, gutted 4 Meijer led bulbs, 5.5 watt- 480 lumens.
With 4 hooked up in parallel, it is drawing 4.4 watts.
With this setup, the capacitor is at 96.8 volts and .03 amps are showing into the led bulbs.
This particular setup as is, is not as efficient as it could be, the neon across the transistor is brightly lighted when running, so energy is being wasted there.
Thinking a bigger capacity puffer capacitor may help absorb that energy and then into the led bulbs, have to try that yet.
I'm using gutted led bulbs now, because i can't find any like these older model ecosmart bulbs, seems most all the newer led bulbs, no matter brand, have circuitry inside that does not work well with this oscillator, blinks or is just not as efficient or bright.
I will try some things to make this setup more efficient, any ideas welcome.
peace love light
  I have found that with my setup the 8 bulbs burn as brightly using a 5 volt WALL USB ADAPTER as using 12 volts to power it.  This is as close to matching the USB adapter I have been using with no name on it.   https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0132X03ZS/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It appears I have been using an Apple wall USB-- looks like this:    http://www.ebay.com/itm/OEM-Apple-12W-USB-AC-Wall-Charger-Power-Adapter-for-iPhone-iPads-iPods-MD836LL-A/401292333396?_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982&_trkparms=aid%3D888007%26algo%3DDISC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D40130%26meid%3D1c90c9992aee44898a5a0573a38ecfc6%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D2%26sd%3D321560573736#rwid
« Last Edit: April 16, 2017, 02:02:19 AM by magnetman12003 »


Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: 3.7 VOLT BATTERY POWERS 56 WATTS
« Reply #72 on: April 16, 2017, 05:47:35 AM »
Hi magnetman, thanks for the link, i went and picked up one up at frys tonight.
I may need to alter the setup to get similar light output at the 5 volt input, will be working on it.
If it works out good, i can get a 12 volt car usb charger and still use my 12 volt tractor batteries if the power goes out.
Here is link to the usb charger.
http://www.frys.com/product/8892912?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG
peace love light

Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: 3.7 VOLT BATTERY POWERS 56 WATTS
« Reply #73 on: April 16, 2017, 06:21:13 AM »
Ok, i just tested the new 5 volt-2.4 amp usb charger on the circuit as is.
It is drawing 150 milliamps at 5.25 volts or .788 watts, the brightness is ok, not at the level it was before, so will have to make some alterations to the setup.
One thing that is interesting, the neon is still lighting up fairly bright across the transistor collector/emitter, even using this 5 volt input.
I wonder if my diodes are ok, or since i have so many turns on my coil, maybe i am getting some high voltage induction from the on phase of the input pulse, or i need to use a full wave bridge.
peace love light


Offline gyulasun

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Re: 3.7 VOLT BATTERY POWERS 56 WATTS
« Reply #74 on: April 16, 2017, 01:00:27 PM »
Hi all, Hi gyulasun, trying some different bulbs without any inner circuitry at all, gutted 4 Meijer led bulbs, 5.5 watt- 480 lumens.
With 4 hooked up in parallel, it is drawing 4.4 watts.
With this setup, the capacitor is at 96.8 volts and .03 amps are showing into the led bulbs.
This particular setup as is, is not as efficient as it could be, the neon across the transistor is brightly lighted
when running, so energy is being wasted there.
Thinking a bigger capacity puffer capacitor may help absorb that energy and then into the led bulbs,
have to try that yet. I'm using gutted led bulbs now, because i can't find any like these older model
ecosmart bulbs, seems most all the newer led bulbs, no matter brand, have circuitry inside that
does not work well with this oscillator, blinks or is just not as efficient or bright.
I will try some things to make this setup more efficient, any ideas welcome.
peace love light

Hi Skywatcher,

Thank you for doing the measurements. Regarding your wish for doing improvement in efficiency,
I think one possibility is to use a power  MOSFET for the switch (instead of the bipolar transistor
like 2SC5359) and control the MOSFET by a CMOS 555 timer in a circuit that has variable frequency and
independent duty cycle adjustment means.
This way you can have more flexibility to find certain "sweet points" with respect to the ferrite
core-coil combination etc.
Naturally, you can stay with the 2SC5359 or similar types and still use a CMOS timer to drive it
and find better operation points.
If interested, here is a good circuit with variable freq and duty cycle control:
http://overunity.com/8411/steorn-demo-live-stream-in-dublin-december-15th-10-am/msg243175/#msg243175
( you can use the circuit to drive directly a bipolar transistor (and not a MOSFET as shown) with no change,
perhaps you may wish to use a 10 kOhm trimmer potmeter+ a series 1 kOhm instead of R1 to be able to
adjust the operating point of the bipolar transistor ).

Of course, when using this circuit, your present feedback coil to the base of the transistor should not be used
or alternatively you may do tests using the two windings in parallel in the collector (wire loss reduces)
or in series (coil L increases nearly 4 times) to check further duty cycle settings to reduce input power etc.

EDIT: if you find the ICM7555 hard to obtain (I think Mouser has it) than the pin compatible LMC555 or TLC555
types can also be used.  (They all work from as low as 2-3V up to 15-18 V supply voltages.)

Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 3.7 VOLT BATTERY POWERS 56 WATTS
« Reply #74 on: April 16, 2017, 01:00:27 PM »

 

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