Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Solid States Devices => Resonance Circuits and Systems => Topic started by: evostars on March 18, 2017, 09:49:26 PM

Title: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 18, 2017, 09:49:26 PM
The bifilar pancake coil, is a interesting coil. It has inductance, but more importantly it has increased capacitance, due to the high voltage difference between the coil windings. It looks like a coil that is a capacitor at the same time.

When the coil is freely resonanting at its resonant frequency, it produces a static magnetic field. At the same time it produces a dynamic dielectric field.

This dielectric field has interesting capabilities. it seems as if it has been stripped of the magnetic field component. It interacts with ground signals. It is able to transfer energy through one wire, and produces voltage in metal objects that are in the field (but not connected).

 I really feel that this is the pure form of electricity. And Im very curious about its properties.
I could not find solid info about it, so I started to do my own research. and I was amazed with the results. To fill the information void about this, i have started to make a video series about it.

https://youtu.be/xHDrmGPY-78 (https://youtu.be/xHDrmGPY-78)  about the dielectric field of a bifilar coil
https://youtu.be/uhY27Zoor-Q (https://youtu.be/uhY27Zoor-Q)  about the magnetic field of a bifilar coil (at resonance and DC)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 18, 2017, 11:58:23 PM
The bifilar pancake coil, is a interesting coil. It has inductance, but more importantly it has increased capacitance, due to the high voltage difference between the coil windings. It looks like a coil that is a capacitor at the same time.

When the coil is freely resonanting at its resonant frequency, it produces a static magnetic field. At the same time it produces a dynamic dielectric field.

This dielectric field has interesting capabilities. it seems as if it has been stripped of the magnetic field component. It interacts with ground signals. It is able to transfer energy through one wire, and produces voltage in metal objects that are in the field (but not connected).

 I really feel that this is the pure form of electricity. And Im very curious about its properties.


I could not find solid info about it, so I started to do my own research. and I was amazed with the results. To fill the information void about this, i have started to make a video series about it.

https://youtu.be/xHDrmGPY-78 (https://youtu.be/xHDrmGPY-78)  about the dielectric field of a bifilar coil
https://youtu.be/uhY27Zoor-Q (https://youtu.be/uhY27Zoor-Q)  about the magnetic field of a bifilar coil (at resonance and DC)


Hi ,
thanks for share your videos and your thoughts about that theme , myself have study some of the effects you enumerate an i  have some videos show exactly some of the effects that you talk .
If you are interesting to see something about that subject ;) i left some of my tests .

https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=XGyz31yaCdw
https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=J1wMalWqa7o
https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=fJ0roz9qz0g


cheers
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 19, 2017, 12:30:41 AM

Hi ,
thanks for share your videos and your thoughts about that theme , myself have study some of the effects you enumerate an i  have some videos show exactly some of the effects that you talk .
If you are interesting to see something about that subject ;) i left some of my tests .
cheers
Obrigado Nelsonrochaa!
I have looked at your videos. The radiant box is not clear to me. is it working with a resonant coil?

you seem to produce a lot of power!
I have not been able to convert the dielectric voltage into magnetic amperes, have you got a link to your research?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 19, 2017, 12:48:08 AM
Obrigado Nelsonrochaa!
I have looked at your videos. The radiant box is not clear to me. is it working with a resonant coil?

you seem to produce a lot of power!
I have not been able to convert the dielectric voltage into magnetic amperes, have you got a link to your research?

Hi Evostars ,
I thank you, the fact that you do something that I do not like to do:
Talk and explain in  my videos.  But you explained very well the important aspects to most of people understand the main idea .
Yes the radiant box use a stack of bifilar pancake coils with one resonant coil in middle of that stack of coils .
You could find a nice effect to if you want to test it . If you put a sheet of aluminum foil on top of your pancake if are properly tuned it will levitate the foil because diamagnetic properties of aluminum .
No i don't make any public research , but you could find some of my tests in my channel .
I hope you continue your explanations to probe to some folks that type of events are real and not bulshit .
One more time very thanks

cheers :

Nelson Rocha

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 19, 2017, 01:01:37 AM
Hi Evostars ,
I thank you, the fact that you do something that I do not like to do:
Talk and explain in  my videos.  But you explained very well the important aspects to most of people understand the main idea .
Yes the radiant box use a stack of bifilar pancake coils with one resonant coil in middle of that stack of coils .
You could find a nice effect to if you want to test it . If you put a sheet of aluminum foil on top of your pancake if are properly tuned it will levitate the foil because diamagnetic properties of aluminum .
No i don't make any public research , but you could find some of my tests in my channel .
I hope you continue your explanations to probe to some folks that type of events are real and not bulshit .
One more time very thanks
thanks!
Yes,  I've been researching and reading (ken wheeler, eric p dollard,  tesla,  Steinmetz,  Thomson  etc) for a while now. And i feel it's time to share my insights.

I have seen the influence of  aluminium foil(mirror)  on the resonant signal,  but i haven't seen it floating. I only work with low power settings so far. But I could a new coil,  and get a stronger dc power source.

it fills me with joy, to be able to share my insights.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 19, 2017, 01:16:55 AM
thanks!
Yes,  I've been researching and reading (ken wheeler, eric p dollard,  tesla,  Steinmetz,  Thomson  etc) for a while now. And i feel it's time to share my insights.

I have seen the influence of  aluminium foil(mirror)  on the resonant signal,  but i haven't seen it floating. I only work with low power settings so far. But I could a new coil,  and get a stronger dc power source.

it fills me with joy, to be able to share my insights.

Hi evostars ,
I full understand you,  because i have the same feelings inside me  , i really like to share what i discover and learn , but lot of people are not full honesty because only try get some vantage from hard work from others . Sometimes a simple thank is enough to fill our inner inside but even that is so much to lot of people .  seems most like live in the "dark"

Good luck to your research

cheers
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: e2matrix on March 19, 2017, 01:57:12 AM
Thanks to you both - the bifilar pancake truly is a fascinating coil.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: pomodoro on March 19, 2017, 02:21:43 AM
Nice work, I like the calm style of the videos and the explanations were done well. Keep up the great work. I haven't done much research in this field, but a static magnetic field in the coil when driven by ac seems strange. My first thoughts are that the coil driver is not providing a perfectly balanced sine wave. The residual DC from the inbance causes the static magnetic field. Is this a possibility?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Jeg on March 19, 2017, 11:41:04 AM
Nice work, I like the calm style of the videos and the explanations were done well. Keep up the great work.

Indeed very chill out videos. Keep it up Evostars and thanks for sharing your thoughts. ;)

My first thoughts are that the coil driver is not providing a perfectly balanced sine wave. The residual DC from the inbance causes the static magnetic field. Is this a possibility?

I do believe the same. One direction pulse driving, leads to a static magnetic field illusion. Actually is a pulsed, one way direction magnetic field.

Regards
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 19, 2017, 11:47:38 AM
Thanks to you both - the bifilar pancake truly is a fascinating coil.
Thank you!
Indeed it is.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 19, 2017, 11:52:34 AM
Nice work, I like the calm style of the videos and the explanations were done well. Keep up the great work. I haven't done much research in this field, but a static magnetic field in the coil when driven by ac seems strange. My first thoughts are that the coil driver is not providing a perfectly balanced sine wave. The residual DC from the inbance causes the static magnetic field. Is this a possibility?
Thank you!
I'm not using sine waves. They dont work. I use very short energetic pulses. The IGBT driver is doing that. But a square wave from a pulse generator also works.
I think the static magnetic field is a result of the standing wave created at resonance.

when water is standing still, the wind blows, and shows traveling waves.
But when the water is flowing fast, and hits a rock, it flows around it, and produces a standing wave.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 19, 2017, 11:58:03 AM
Indeed very chill out videos. Keep it up Evostars and thanks for sharing your thoughts. ;)

I do believe the same. One direction pulse driving, leads to a static magnetic field illusion. Actually is a pulsed, one way direction magnetic field.

Regards

Thank you.

Keep in mind, I have 3 coils on top off eachother.  the middle coil is freely resonanting with the field produced by the top and bottom ones.
The top and bottom coil are pulsed (not sine wave but short sharp pulses, in the video you see a square wave, of the pulse generator, but the igbt gives a energetic pulse)

The top and bottom coils are in series, and the pulse therefore gives a opposite field above and below the coils. the coils are therefor in attraction.

lets say a pulsed coil, produces a north above and a south beneath it.  then the north and south are joined when you stack them. in this place of attraction the center coil is placed, in the north south field.

But as I have shown in the video (magnetism) there is almost NO attraction of the magnetic fields!

I think we really need to look at the dielectric field, the capacitance. and the properties of this field. As it seems to be the origin of the magnetic fields.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 19, 2017, 01:38:00 PM
I've made an update to "The dielectric field of a bifilar pancake coil" video.
In this earlier video I showed the effect of grounding on a LED array.
In this addition I show the effect of grounding on two capacitors.
https://youtu.be/4_q8TjEMM50 (https://youtu.be/4_q8TjEMM50)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: dieter on March 19, 2017, 02:23:20 PM
Very interesting project. You may want to look at "Jack Noskills" project, in which he uses a high capacitance coil too, but what is diffrent is: he does not connect the two windings, but uses them with open ends, so the coil may load, but no current may flow. He achieves some interesting results, some similar to yours, such as bypassing high resistors, and difficulty to convert the output to a form that (not only eg. lightbulbs, but also) inductive Loads can use.


I got to find the link...


BTW. would be nice to have some essential data here:
Pulse frequency, duty time, voltage, coil specs, any diodes to guide the collapsing fields back emf...


kr
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: dieter on March 19, 2017, 02:34:35 PM
Ok here's Jack Noskills' thread/ project:


http://overunity.com/17119/pulling-energy-from-the-ambient-energy-field-using-a-coil-capacitor/msg501319/#msg501319


I don't mean to become offtopic, there seem to be some interesting parallels.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 19, 2017, 06:37:07 PM
Ok here's Jack Noskills' thread/ project:
http://overunity.com/17119/pulling-energy-from-the-ambient-energy-field-using-a-coil-capacitor/msg501319/#msg501319
I don't mean to become offtopic, there seem to be some interesting parallels.
Thanks for the link! I will read it soon.
for the specs you ask about. the video already states alot. 3 coil stacked,  pulsed with a pulse generator (I use a igbt driver but it's nit necessary).  the frequency is, the resonant frequency of the coil,  and depends on the iinductance and capacitance of the coil.

I will make another video about the resonant frequency, and standing waves.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 20, 2017, 09:43:17 AM
The bifilar pancake coil, is a interesting coil. It has inductance, but more importantly it has increased capacitance, due to the high voltage difference between the coil windings. It looks like a coil that is a capacitor at the same time.

When the coil is freely resonanting at its resonant frequency, it produces a static magnetic field. At the same time it produces a dynamic dielectric field.

This dielectric field has interesting capabilities. it seems as if it has been stripped of the magnetic field component. It interacts with ground signals. It is able to transfer energy through one wire, and produces voltage in metal objects that are in the field (but not connected).

 I really feel that this is the pure form of electricity. And Im very curious about its properties.
I could not find solid info about it, so I started to do my own research. and I was amazed with the results. To fill the information void about this, i have started to make a video series about it.

https://youtu.be/xHDrmGPY-78 (https://youtu.be/xHDrmGPY-78)  about the dielectric field of a bifilar coil
https://youtu.be/uhY27Zoor-Q (https://youtu.be/uhY27Zoor-Q)  about the magnetic field of a bifilar coil (at resonance and DC)

I looked at your three clips and you seem like a very nice person and you have lots of enthusiasm.  For you there is a base issue related to your investigations.  Do you try to pursue learning about conventional electronics, or do you ignore conventional electronics and only pursue learning about so-called "alternative" electronics?  Or do you try to pursue a mixture of the two?  That's your choice to make.

What I am noticing is that this forum is not a good learning environment and if you want to learn about conventional electronics you are probably going to have to pursue that path by yourself or with other people.  I am quite certain that many people that watched your clips that like "alternative" electronics but also have a reasonable understanding of conventional electronics were not helping you when they could have helped you.  They are not sharing good information with you because doing so would make them feel uncomfortable for some strange reason.

I am just going to make some comments from watching your clips the other night.

For starters, there is no such thing as single-wire energy transmission.  There is always an "invisible" AC-coupling to the ground plane for both your device under test and your signal source.  That's why you can get the capacitor to charge with one wire in your tests.  Why does the voltage get higher when you put your fingers on the capacitors?  The answer is that your fingers and body provide a more robust (higher capacitance) signal path to the ground plane allowing the AC signal source to add larger puffs of charge to the capacitor.  Larger pumping puffs of charge into the capacitor means that the capacitor reaches a higher quiescent voltage where the added puffs of charge are in balance with the reverse current leaking through the diodes.

When you place your two pancake coils together with North-North poles facing each other, how come you can barely observe any repulsion between the two pancake coils even through with your compass you can definitely detect the field for each individual coil?  The answer is based on geometry such that the divergence of the magnetic field produced by each coil in the close proximity of each coil is very low.  Very low divergence equals very low force.  A hypothetical zero divergence in the magnetic field for one, the other, or both coils would give you a zero repulsion force between the coils.

When your pancake coil is truly in a self-resonant mode, then by definition both the electric field between the turns of the coil and the magnetic field around the coil have to be oscillating back and forth.  So your conclusion there about a constant unchanging magnetic field around the exterior of the coil in "self resonance" is incorrect.  Why can you observe an apparent DC magnetic field around the "self resonating" coil with your compass?  It's because your signal driver circuit, even through it is exciting the coil with an AC signal, is presumably also driving the coil with a small DC component such that you can detect the DC field with the compass needle when you move it around the coil.  As a suggestion, you can make a small coil of say 20 turns about the diameter of your thumb and attach that to your scope probe to make an AC magnetic field "sniffer" to check the strength and orientation of the AC magnetic field around the pancake coils.

Resonance of a circuit and the self-resonance of a coil have specific meanings that must be understood and then measured properly to confirm that you are truly observing the phenomenon of resonance.  Just observing a peak voltage reading on your multimeter or on your scope waveform is not an instant "confirmation of resonance."  It will take you some time to develop a skill set to correctly determine when you are observing resonance.  Part of that exercise involves actually identifying the mechanism of the resonance and the components of the resonance.  In other words, about every two minutes in your clips you are proclaiming "resonance."  That is not the case, and these things have to be carefully determined and measured.

Now, some people are going to be upset that I made this posting.  I am trying to suggest to you that if you are interested in electronics and electronics experimentation there is a vast amount of knowledge out there.  It's up to you to determine what path you want to take.  And I am disappointed that many of the people following you that know better are not making any real effort to give you some good and useful information.  Many people have seen the types of things that you are doing dozens of times before.  They only want to throw the usual "alternative" electronics information at you.

I am not here to engage with you or try to teach you.  I just came here to shine some light on your round of experiments with your pancake coils and let you know that there are options.

Good luck in your experiments.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 20, 2017, 10:50:00 AM
Thanks for you opinions Milehigh,
I have my classic electronic education, but it is related to sound electronics.  it was a good learning school.
I also have limited knowledge of radio electronics. But with AM radio techniques there is alot of mis information.
So now I just look at things, my way. based on observation. Shure I will make mistakes. but thats ok with me. As long as Im learning,  and more importantly,  think for myself. I know the answers are In me. The are not found on the cencored books and youtube.

basically, I do not believe in a electron/photon PARTICLE... 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 20, 2017, 12:19:59 PM

"What I am noticing is that this forum is not a good learning environment and if you want to learn about conventional electronics you are probably going to have to pursue that path by yourself or with other people"
 
"For starters, there is no such thing as single-wire energy transmission"

MileHigh

fool is the one who thinks already knows everything closing the "window" to learn and improve their wisdom
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 20, 2017, 12:25:54 PM
fool is the one who thinks already knows everything closing the "window" to learn and improve their wisdom

Oh really?  Am I closing the window?  Or am I opening the window?

And who is the real fool?

Absolutely NOT, there is no such thing as singe-wire energy transmission.  Understanding that requires understanding energy.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 20, 2017, 12:41:45 PM
Quote
there is no such thing as singe-wire energy transmission
So you see, you're still an ignorant - the internet is full of it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_transmission_line) (how you could become a hero member with 7379 posts goes over my head).
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 20, 2017, 12:44:02 PM
Oh really?  Am I closing the window?  Or am I opening the window?

And who is the real fool?

Absolutely NOT, there is no such thing as singe-wire energy transmission.  Understanding that requires understanding energy.

MileHigh ,

Like you give your opinion,  for sure i can refute them too like you do all time .
The window is close to you or anyone  when you think that is nothing more to learn . Maybe because with your age you only able to use your crystallized intelligence  and not the fluid intelligence , and i not censure that , but you could not assume something like absolute because the history already told us that what is right today tomorrow could not be so right .

Never forget one thing :
Laws were created by men, do you know someone more imperfect than man? 

Have a nice day
 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 20, 2017, 12:56:35 PM
Some laws are created by man and other laws are natural laws that are defined by Nature.

Power is the product of an 'across' variable and a 'through' variable.  Energy is the integration of power with respect to time, as defined by Nature.

Across variable      Through variable     Result

Velocity                Force                     Linear Mechanical Power
Angular Velocity    Torque                   Rotational Mechanical power
Voltage                 Current                 Electrical Power

This is what Nature is telling us, this is natural law.

For so-called "single-wire AC power transmission" you typically supply the "voltage only."  However current flows through AC capacitive coupling.  Without the AC capacitive coupling there is no current flow and therefore there is no power transmission.  Current must flow in "single-wire AC power transmission" as defined by Nature.

If you are going to understand power and energy for all of your experiments, you must understand this.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 20, 2017, 01:15:19 PM
Some laws are created by man and other laws are natural laws that are defined by Nature.

Power is the product of an 'across' variable and a 'through' variable.  Energy is the integration of power with respect to time, as defined by Nature.

Across variable      Through variable     Result

Velocity                Force                     Linear Mechanical Power
Angular Velocity    Torque                   Rotational Mechanical power
Voltage                 Current                 Electrical Power

This is what Nature is telling us, this is natural law.

For so-called "single-wire AC power transmission" you typically supply the "voltage only."  However current flows through AC capacitive coupling.  Without the AC capacitive coupling there is no current flow and therefore there is no power transmission.  Current must flow in "single-wire AC power transmission" as defined by Nature.

If you are going to understand power and energy for all of your experiments, you must understand this.

Hi MileHigh ,
You give the perfect example that your are only use your crystallized intelligence  nothing more and that is the point , your are not available to learn nothing more because you only use what you already learn .
Everyday new laws are "rebirth" by new discoveries made by scientist and university and that is unquestionable.
Hope now you understand the meaning of my words . 
I never say that you don't have knowledge, but thinking that you know everything is a terrible mistake by you .
But of course is only my opinion , and even i could be wrong , but i not close the "window" to learn yet ;)

Have a nice day 

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 20, 2017, 03:07:49 PM
I would suggest we stay on topic, and respect each others truths.
Nobody is right or wrong, we all have a unique perspective on reality. As we are all unique individuals.
If we can listen with respect for our unique differences, we might even learn something. There are many truths.
For me the truth is flexible, for else, I could not learn.

for example, my truth, is that velocity, is not dependent on force. We fly with great velocity through the universe. What does require force is CHANGE of velocity, also known as acceleration. F=M*A (yes... Newton).

At the same time, nothing in nature goes in a straight line (velocity) but ALL is curve linear.  We fly through the universe with our solar system, but still, we have a change in velocity, because we circle around our milky way galaxy. 
And newton's apple did fall from the tree, but at the same time the tree and the apple were spinning around the axis of the earth, around the sun, around the galaxy.

It all is about perspective. And that perspective is unique to all of us.

Now... Lets get back to the bifilar coil. And the magic it has to offer us.
I'm working on the resonance video, and the relation between a capacitor and a inductor in a oscilating circuit, and its resonant frequency. and the simularity it has with a bifilar coil with its capacitance and inductance.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 23, 2017, 11:29:40 PM
If you put a sheet of aluminum foil on top of your pancake if are properly tuned it will levitate the foil because diamagnetic properties of aluminum .

I tried this but with no results. I tried serveral ways, above, below, single pulsed coil, free resonant coil, little picece of foil, big piece of foil, circular piece of foil with a hole in the center.... 

Maybe this is because the pancake coil has the north ans south magnetic poles in the same space? There is no pole separation as in a solenoid.

What I did observe, and was expecting, was a change in capacitance, and therefor a change in the resonant frequency.

Nelson Rochaa, could you tell a little bit more about this floating aluminium foil setup? Could it be I need more voltage? The pulse driver is 12V but the resonant coil is hundreds of volts. Maybe, I need to get into the thousends of volts of dielectric resonant (radiant) energy?

Any comments are welcome!

(ps the resonant video is not yet done, it was a bit harder to put it in a relative short video).
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 24, 2017, 12:34:04 AM
I tried this but with no results. I tried serveral ways, above, below, single pulsed coil, free resonant coil, little picece of foil, big piece of foil, circular piece of foil with a hole in the center.... 

Maybe this is because the pancake coil has the north ans south magnetic poles in the same space? There is no pole separation as in a solenoid.

What I did observe, and was expecting, was a change in capacitance, and therefor a change in the resonant frequency.

Nelson Rochaa, could you tell a little bit more about this floating aluminium foil setup? Could it be I need more voltage? The pulse driver is 12V but the resonant coil is hundreds of volts. Maybe, I need to get into the thousends of volts of dielectric resonant (radiant) energy?

Any comments are welcome!

(ps the resonant video is not yet done, it was a bit harder to put it in a relative short video).

Hi Evostars ,
I tested with aluminum foil full covering the coil .
You could see by the video link that i send to you that i'm not able to measure any magnetic field orientation even when i connect a load in the receiver coil look please with attention that point  .
I will suggest to you,  that you test again but with a higher output , i use in that particular test a input of 24v  otherwise i will try make a video demo in future because i don't know some details like the frequency you are using to pulse the coil or the way you pulse the coil ;) .

Good luck

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 24, 2017, 12:57:46 AM
Thanks Nelson Rocha,
My setup is using a IGBT pulse driver (PWM-OCXi v2.1 from  rmcybernetics.com, it makes life easy), It dumps the load of a 2200uF capacitor charged by a 12V 1A adaptor into the coil (low impedance maybe less then 2 ohm), creating short sharp pulses.

The coil can be:
- a single bifilar pancake coil pulsed, with a resonant bifilar coil on top (and one below as i prefer)
or two coils in series connected and pulsed, with the third resonant coil in between.

I usualy connect the outside wire to ground, on the south side.

I saw your video with the compass, indeed the compass isnt moving, but I could only see one needle, and it was pointing to the center. So, maybe If you make another video, hold the coil on its side, so the needle doesnt become stuck as it will be dragged down.

It would be a nice video to see the aluminium floating!

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 24, 2017, 01:12:26 AM
about that IGBT pusle driver, It is capable of making square waves, but due to the low impedance and the simple wall power adapter,  it generates these short pulses, due to the shortcut.  And thats exactly what this coil likes. much better than square waves.

I just made pictures of the pulse driver, these show the igbt, and the igbtdriver
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 24, 2017, 01:25:02 AM
Thanks Nelson Rocha,
My setup is using a IGBT pulse driver (PWM-OCXi v2.1 from  rmcybernetics.com, it makes life easy), It dumps the load of a 2200uF capacitor charged by a 12V 1A adaptor into the coil (low impedance maybe less then 2 ohm), creating short sharp pulses.

The coil can be:
- a single bifilar pancake coil pulsed, with a resonant bifilar coil on top (and one below as i prefer)
or two coils in series connected and pulsed, with the third resonant coil in between.

I usualy connect the outside wire to ground, on the south side.

I saw your video with the compass, indeed the compass isnt moving, but I could only see one needle, and it was pointing to the center. So, maybe If you make another video, hold the coil on its side, so the needle doesnt become stuck as it will be dragged down.

It would be a nice video to see the aluminium floating!

Hi Evostar,
The two compass are static even before i start feed the circuit because the needles are in their normal position .
You could see too, after i approach the magnet they change their position under the strong magnetic field of magnet but  they return to their normal position even far way outside of coil .  At minute 1:18 i put one of compass under the wire that feed the load (bulb) and their position should change  but needle not change in their position .

I will try next week making new video to show that and aluminum foil levitate .

cheers
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 24, 2017, 01:29:41 AM
Hi Evostar,
The two compass are static even before i start feed the circuit because the needles are in their normal position .
You could see too, after i approach the magnet they change their position under the strong magnetic field of magnet but  they return to their normal position even far way outside of coil .  At minute 1:18 i put one of compass under the wire that feed the load (bulb) and their position should change  but needle not change in their position .

I will try next week making new video to show that and aluminum foil levitate .

cheers

Indeed I rewatched it. I didnt remember it correctly. my fault.

Usually when I check for the magnetic field with dc, I put 2 amps into the coil (as the magnetic field induction is dependend on the amps, not the volts).

I would love to see that foil video :)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 24, 2017, 09:23:20 AM
You don't need anything fancy to levitate or repel plates of non-ferrous metals with AC. Just a Variac plugged into the wall and a suitable heavy electromagnet coil will do it. And you can levitate all kinds of stuff, conductive or not (aluminum foil, paper, styrofoam, plastic balls, etc) with HVDC.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: pomodoro on March 24, 2017, 02:24:38 PM
Anyone tried making an electromagnet?, Some internet sites claim tesla's bilfilar winding with the same number of turns makes for a much stronger pull, lifting way more paperclips. Since its DC operated it cant have anything to do with resonance or extra capacitance. I'll give it a go soon myself cause you can't trust all the creeps out there,  but if true, what would be the reasoning behind its extra performance with I'm assuming the same current?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 24, 2017, 04:14:42 PM
Anyone tried making an electromagnet?, Some internet sites claim tesla's bilfilar winding with the same number of turns makes for a much stronger pull, lifting way more paperclips. Since its DC operated it cant have anything to do with resonance or extra capacitance. I'll give it a go soon myself cause you can't trust all the creeps out there,  but if true, what would be the reasoning behind its extra performance with I'm assuming the same current?

Pomodoro,

Tesla bifilar coils have twice the inductance of single wire coils of the same gauge and copper weight; This means that the bifilar has the potential to generate twice the magnetic field strength at the cost of double the power. Increasing input two times to the single wire coil would melt the insulation, not increase magnetic field strength.

Measuring field strength between the two types of coils with an input less then or equal to half the double strength produces no difference between the magnetic fields.

I performed the two types of coils test with iorn nail cores and paper clips. One nail will generate twice the permanent magnetic field strength if you saturate both coils. The bifilar will pick up twice the paper clips; However, the bifilar coil eats up twice the power. I tried to make sense of this to Conradelectro, Milehigh and Tinselkoala all three of whom stubbornly ran tests of undercharged coils that deflected compass needles the same amount with the same input. I told them hundreds of times to fully charge the bifilar to test for the double strength, but I could never get anyone to pay attention to me. The additional inductance is a product of "Mutual Coupling", like Flynn's "Phanthom Magnet".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mxtwS2OsaA&t=5s
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 24, 2017, 05:29:17 PM
Back to your old pattern of misrepresenting my work and that of others, I see.

Pomodoro, I encourage you to do your own testing of the claims made by synchro1.

Quote
The bifilar will pick up twice the paper clips; However, the bifilar coil eats up twice the power.
  Insert ROFL image here.

"eats up" ? You mean that you _fed_ the bifilar coil with twice the power of the monofilar coil in order to get it to pick up more paper clips. You did this by increasing the voltage supplied, which in turn increased the current through the coil. DUH... of COURSE you will get a stronger field in this case.

With the _SAME_ current fed to both coils they will both have the same magnetic field produced and will pick up the same number of paper clips. Of course using iron/steel nails for this moronic test will skew your results because you are magnetizing the nails themselves, and probably also your paper clips.



 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 24, 2017, 05:40:10 PM
Back to your old pattern of misrepresenting my work and that of others, I see.

Pomodoro, I encourage you to do your own testing of the claims made by synchro1.
  Insert ROFL image here.

"eats up" ? You mean that you _fed_ the bifilar coil with twice the power of the monofilar coil in order to get it to pick up more paper clips. You did this by increasing the voltage supplied, which in turn increased the current through the coil. DUH... of COURSE you will get a stronger field in this case.

With the _SAME_ current fed to both coils they will both have the same magnetic field produced and will pick up the same number of paper clips. Of course using iron/steel nails for this moronic test will skew your results because you are magnetizing the nails themselves, and probably also your paper clips.

Look at my hex nut and Leedskalnin locking videos. Snap charge and pulse magnetization is a natural event. Twice the current spontaneously jumps from the battery into the bifilar when the electrodes swipe the battery terminals and the iron nail core instantly maqgnetizes to twice the strength of the single wire core. The bifilar really pops compared to the single wire coil. You yourself mention the effect in your bifilar to single wire coil comparison video, and it's clearly visible to the viewer.

My advice to you Mr. Hogwallow, is to measure the inductance in Henries of both the bifilar and the single wire pancake coils with an inductance meter and see for yourself what the difference is.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 24, 2017, 06:03:08 PM
Quote
Tesla bifilar coils have twice the inductance of single wire coils of the same gauge and copper weight

This is FALSE.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 24, 2017, 06:05:14 PM
Look at my hex nut and Leedskalnin locking videos. Snap charge and pulse magnetization is a natural event. Twice the current spontaneously jumps from the battery into the bifilar when the electrodes swipe the battery terminals and the iron nail core instantly maqgnetizes to twice the strength of the single wire core. The bifilar really pops compared to the single wire coil. You yourself mention the effect in your bifilar to single wire coil comparison video, and it's clearly visible to the viewer.

My advice to you Mr. Hogwallow, is to measure the inductance in Henries of both the bifilar and the single wire pancake coils with an inductance meter and see for yourself what the difference is.

Still misrepresenting my work. And I've made the measurements, as you can see.

Take your own advice and do the measurements yourself... which you have clearly never done.

"swipe the battery terminals".... that's laughable. You have no idea what current you are putting into your coils or whether you are equalizing conditions. You really need to learn how to do experiments properly and how to MAKE MEASUREMENTS instead of spouting nonsense.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 24, 2017, 06:42:37 PM
Anyone tried making an electromagnet?, Some internet sites claim tesla's bilfilar winding with the same number of turns makes for a much stronger pull, lifting way more paperclips. Since its DC operated it cant have anything to do with resonance or extra capacitance. I'll give it a go soon myself cause you can't trust all the creeps out there,  but if true, what would be the reasoning behind its extra performance with I'm assuming the same current?
Yes the field is stronger. Also, with a DC measurement, the resistance is differnent compared to a normal coil. This video shows it clearly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNAZ6heorEc

Tesla explains it in his patent (512340):
In electric apparatus or systems in which alternating currents are employed the self-induction of the coils or conductors may, and, in fact, in many cases does operate disadvantageously by giving rise to false currents which often reduce what is known as the commercial efficiency of the apparatus composing the system or operate detrimentally in other respects. The effects of self-induction, above referred to, are known to be neutralized by proportioning to a proper degree the capacity of the circuit with relation to the self-induction and frequency of the currents. This has been accomplished heretofore by the use of condensers constructed and applied as separate instruments.

My present invention has for its object to avoid the employment of condensers which are expensive, cumbersome and difficult to maintain in perfect condition, and to so construct the coils themselves as to accomplish the same ultimate object.

end of tesla quote

To me this says the bifilar coil, is dodging lenz law (which isnt a law, but a observation)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 24, 2017, 06:58:45 PM
@ tinselkoala & sychro1
The Bifilar (pancake) coil is mostly different in the capacitance, between the windings.

 Its about the stronger dielectric field.

The difference of the magnetic field strength comes from the absence of the Lenz "law" effect, that in a normal coil gives a counteracting magnetic force, weakening the field (eating power). The dielectric field prevents this action (according to teslas patent as citated before)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 24, 2017, 07:10:23 PM
"absence of lenz law effect"




I almost lost a kidney





Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 24, 2017, 07:12:10 PM
Hi Evostars,
The two compass are static even before i start feed the circuit because the needles are in their normal position .
You could see too, after i approach the magnet they change their position under the strong magnetic field of magnet but  they return to their normal position even far way outside of coil .  At minute 1:18 i put one of compass under the wire that feed the load (bulb) and their position should change  but needle not change in their position .

I rewatched it a few more times. It really has no magnetic field. It is differnt from what i am used to.  I wonder how you energise you coils. It looks you use a pulse generator, with a half bridge mosfet pulse driver, correct? one mosfet for the up ramp, and one for the down ramp of the pulse signal?

I also looked at your bifilar pancake coils. It looks like the 2 windings are on top of eachother (instead of next to eachother), like a roll of speaker wire. Is that correct? Two pancakes on top of eachother, connected in series?

That could explain alot, as the capacitance it then 90 degrees rotated (in between the 2 coils on top of eachother, connected in series)
 I Think im going to try that myself :)  It seems that the magnetic field and the dielectric are not phase related (vectors) anymore, but also at a 90 degree angle.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 24, 2017, 07:13:15 PM
"absence of lenz law effect"

I almost lost a kidney
Good you have 2 of them!

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 24, 2017, 07:56:30 PM
Yes the field is stronger. Also, with a DC measurement, the resistance is differnent compared to a normal coil. This video shows it clearly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNAZ6heorEc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNAZ6heorEc)

Ooh is that TheOldScientist clip ever cringeworthy.  He shows a difference in DC resistance between a regular coil and a bifilar coil where both coils are supposed to have the same total wire length and DC resistance.  He acknowledges this apparent anomaly that does not make sense but then simply moves on and accepts the measurement.  One possible explanation is that he has an accidental short in one of the two half-coils that make up the bifilar coil.  There is no way you should look at a measurement that you know is wrong and accept it.

But the super cringeworthyness comes up when you see his jagged scope traces and the complete ragged mess of a scope trace at the end of his clip.  He makes no comment about that issue.  He may have been feeding a square wave into his coils under test which would be a mortal sin and a great display of ignorance.  However, I can't be sure about that, I don't know the true reason for the jagged scope traces.  However, what I do know is that he should have been observing near-perfect sine waves on his scope trace.  The fact that he is not seeing sine waves is telling you that something is seriously wrong.  Either way it is a lose for TheOldScientist.

Sorry, but I personally have very low confidence in TheOldScientist.  He is free energy clickbait.

Finally, the strength of the magnetic field generated by a coil is derived from the ampere-turns.  A regular coll and a bifilar coil where both coils have the same number of turns will generate a magnetic field of the same strength.  This is hard knowledge that is carved in stone and can easily be verified with proper measurements.  The user Conradelectro did the experiment himself and posted his clips.  So that is one myth about the bifilar coil that is not true.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 24, 2017, 08:13:37 PM
Tesla explains it in his patent (512340):
In electric apparatus or systems in which alternating currents are employed the self-induction of the coils or conductors may, and, in fact, in many cases does operate disadvantageously by giving rise to false currents which often reduce what is known as the commercial efficiency of the apparatus composing the system or operate detrimentally in other respects. The effects of self-induction, above referred to, are known to be neutralized by proportioning to a proper degree the capacity of the circuit with relation to the self-induction and frequency of the currents. This has been accomplished heretofore by the use of condensers constructed and applied as separate instruments.

My present invention has for its object to avoid the employment of condensers which are expensive, cumbersome and difficult to maintain in perfect condition, and to so construct the coils themselves as to accomplish the same ultimate object.

end of tesla quote

To me this says the bifilar coil, is dodging lenz law (which isnt a law, but a observation)

For the Tesla bifilar coil patent you have to take early twentieth century English and translate it into modern technical English.   The "false currents" are excessive current flowing in the wires because of low power factor for a device or machine that has mains-fed electrical coils.  He is saying that his bifilar coil incorporates the power factor correction capacitance within the coil itself.  This is to reduce costs because apparently in the early twentieth century capacitors were expensive and not in commercial production.

Just search on "using capacitors to correct power factor."

Here is a good link from that search that gives you the full number crunching:

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/alternating-current/chpt-11/practical-power-factor-correction/

I seriously doubt that bifilar pancake coils were ever used in some kind of AC mains powered device or machine to correct for the power factor for the device or machine.  I view this as a purely academic exercise where Tesla filed the patent in case somehow bifilar coils made it into a useful electrical machine.

All of this has nothing to do with "dodging Lenz's Law."

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 24, 2017, 08:34:35 PM
We don't know how that so called Tesla bifilar is connected. There's a strong chance it's hairpin not serial. Secondly, "The old scientist" meant to say "Inductance" and used the term "Resistance" by mistake, largely because he has English for a second language.

I'm explaining why my Tesla bifilar picked up twice the trombone clips in my video. No one ever offered an alternative explanation, nor has anyone ever been able to replicate the test.

"When you have a bifilar pair like this, you can measure the inductance of one of the coils, ignoring the other; call that value of inductance L.

Now, if the two coils are connected in series aiding configuration, the inductance will be 4*L.

If they are connected the other way, series opposing, the inductance of the combination will be very small".

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 24, 2017, 09:51:26 PM
MH & TK,

I just tested a biflar for inductance in Henries and resistance in Ohms. The inductance of each coil separately is 1.45 mh apiece or L. The inductance of the serial connected bifilar (Beginning of one coil wire to the end wire of the other) measured at 5.81 mh. That's four times the inductance of one individual coil. The inductance of the serial connection is 4 L. The inductance of the hairpin connection is equal to .725 mh or 1/2 L. Resistance of each coil separately is 2.5 Ohms or R. Serial and hairpin connections both equal 5 Ohms, or 2 R.

I can upload a definitive video and put an end to this controversy once and for all. Any more wise guy back talk from you two trolls?

The inductance of the hairpin (Beginning of one coil wire to the beginning of the other) is 1/2 the inductance of one individual coil. That equals 8 times the difference in inductance in Henries between the two alternative possible bifilar connections! An enormous difference. Hold the pickles!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 24, 2017, 10:50:55 PM
The inductance of a coil is proportional to the square of the number of the turns.  A 100-turn coil will have four times the inductance of a 50-turn coil.

A 100-turn regular coil will have the same inductance as a series-bifilar coil consisting of 50 turns in series with 50 turns.  TK posted pictures of a regular coil and an equivalent series-bifilar coil connected to an inductance meter where the inductance meter shows the same number of Henries for each coil.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 24, 2017, 11:02:48 PM
The inductance of a coil is proportional to the square of the number of the turns.  A 100-turn coil will have four times the inductance of a 50-turn coil.

A 100-turn regular coil will have the same inductance as a series-bifilar coil consisting of 50 turns in series with 50 turns.  TK posted pictures of a regular coil and an equivalent series-bifilar coil connected to an inductance meter where the inductance meter shows the same number of Henries for each coil.

Milehigh,

Hey...Wind one and measure it for yourself as I just did then get back with your results. TK's inductance meter is "A Piece of Crap" China Palace back ally trash salvage midnight special!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 24, 2017, 11:23:31 PM
Milehigh,

Hey...Wind one and measure it for yourself as I just did then get back with your results.

Ahhh ! One of the best things i ear in that topic :)  Good shot synchro1 , sometimes someone need to say some trues , to some fellows that simple not show nothing all this years but only open so large their mouth to criticize the nice work of persons like TheOldScientist without even think they not contribute in nothing make that type of considerations . Seems they have special pleasure put dislike in videos and make bad considerations about valid works. Real sad see that type of behavior .

really sad

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: AlienGrey on March 24, 2017, 11:43:20 PM
Ahhh ! One of the best things i ear in that topic :)  Good shot synchro1 , sometimes someone need to say some trues , to some fellows that simple not show nothing all this years but only open so large their mouth to criticize the nice work of persons like TheOldScientist without even think they not contribute in nothing make that type of considerations . Seems they have special pleasure put dislike in videos and make bad considerations about valid works. Real sad see that type of behavior .

really sad
Hi Nelson well it looks like we are on a learning curve here for through's coil winders who didn't know and the mothers who didn't teach manners and respect off other inner souls into there kids.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 24, 2017, 11:47:09 PM
Ahhh ! One of the best things i ear in that topic :)  Good shot synchro1 , sometimes someone need to say some trues , to some fellows that simple not show nothing all this years but only open so large their mouth to criticize the nice work of persons like TheOldScientist without even think they not contribute in nothing make that type of considerations . Seems they have special pleasure put dislike in videos and make bad considerations about valid works. Real sad see that type of behavior .

really sad

No Nelson, that was a fair criticism of TheOldScienist.  I take no pleasure in it, but it is a service to people that may not know for themselves.  If you want to buy a car and you know nothing about cars you get your friend that knows about cars to help you make a purchase.  This makes sense, correct?  The same thing applies here.  Like it or not, TheOldScientist's clip is a bad clip.  When you excite a coil with sine waves, the response from the coil should be sine waves.  This is FACT, and clearly there was a MAJOR PROBLEM in TheOldScientist's clip and he did not even mention it.  So you need to understand and acknowledge this.  No person's work is free from critique and I have looked at many of TheOldScientist's clips and I have not been impressed by most of them.

Back to coils.  Why is the inductance of a coil proportional to the square of the number of turns?  I did the experiment a long time ago, and I am not going to do it today.

You can also use your intellect to answer the question and actually understand WHY, and not just accept it as another "rule."  This clip answers the questions HOW and WHY:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z85J5eW1C1A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z85J5eW1C1A)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: gyulasun on March 25, 2017, 12:32:18 AM
synchro1,

If you have a bifilar coil and you measured 1.45mH for any one of the windings out of the two and then you measure 5.81mH for the two windings in series connection as you wrote then there is nothing wrong: you are correct with this.

The problem is not this but as follows:
if you make a single wire coil with the same amount of wire you used for the two bifilar windings  i.e. the DC resistance of this single wire coil would be also 5 Ohm (same wire length and same wire OD like the two windings together have in the bifilar) and the mechanical sizes such as the diameter and the length of this coil would be nicely comparable to that of your bifilar coil,
then what L inductance do you think you would measure for this single wire coil?

Because this is the real question here to answer, right?

The answer is you would measure pretty close to the 5.81mH L value. 

I built two such coils, one with a single wire from say 10m long piece of wire, label it as coil A and then I made a bifilar coil from 2 x 5m long wires guided in parallel and connected the two wires in series as you wrote, label this as coil B. I measured very nearly identical L inductances for coil A and coil B. Back then this comparison was done not only by me but Magluvin and TinselKoala: we demonstrated this and you continuously criticised all 3 of us, often with rude words. Three persons separately cannot have crappy L meters.  :o

Remember what you wrote in your post #33 above:

"Tesla bifilar coils have twice the inductance of single wire coils of the same gauge and copper weight" 

why I quoted this (though the first part of it is not correct) is that it shows you are aware of the condition: the single wire coil should have the same copper weight as the two windings have in the bifilar coil, hence this should mean the length of the wire used for the single wire coil and the added length of the two windings in the bifilar coil should be equal and of the same wire gauge. 

Please demonstrate the measured L inductance of your single wire coil wound with the conditions above.
It is fine you tested your bifilar coil inductance for the individual windings and for their series connection. This latter nicely justifies that if you double the number of turns you get 4 times the inductance, right?


Gyula
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 25, 2017, 01:04:44 AM
No Nelson, that was a fair criticism of TheOldScienist.  I take no pleasure in it, but it is a service to people that may not know for themselves.  If you want to buy a car and you know nothing about cars you get your friend that knows about cars to help you make a purchase.  This makes sense, correct?  The same thing applies here.  Like it or not, TheOldScientist's clip is a bad clip.  When you excite a coil with sine waves, the response from the coil should be sine waves.  This is FACT, and clearly there was a MAJOR PROBLEM in TheOldScientist's clip and he did not even mention it.  So you need to understand and acknowledge this.  No person's work is free from critique and I have looked at many of TheOldScientist's clips and I have not been impressed by most of them.

Back to coils.  Why is the inductance of a coil proportional to the square of the number of turns?  I did the experiment a long time ago, and I am not going to do it today.

You can also use your intellect to answer the question and actually understand WHY, and not just accept it as another "rule."  This clip answers the questions HOW and WHY:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z85J5eW1C1A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z85J5eW1C1A)

MH Solenoids coils and pancake coils have different behavior because their self induction are different , so you simple can not compare in the same perspective when measure a solenoid normal coil or bifilar pancake coil .
About you saying  TheOldScientist's are feeding the coils with a sine wave how you have so sure about that ? Could be a square wave and is for sure . He talk about the resonance frequency coil , and to me is clear that if we feed a pancake bifilar coil  even with a square wave when is in resonance frequency , the output will be a sine wave even ljagged scope traces like you say .
like you told   "Sorry, but I personally have very low confidence in TheOldScientist" i feel exactly the same in relation to you .
What is depreciate is you say He is free energy clickbait when he share some of the best videos explanation that you could find in youtube .
Maybe because comments like yours he close the channel only to a particular subscribers this is clickbait ? I think not .
There you have a jagged scope feed by a square wave .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1wMalWqa7o
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: skycollection 1 on March 25, 2017, 01:33:53 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiLgM3EkQBE
With this bifilar pancake coil i can charge the 12 v battery without magnet rotor, can you describe this experiment...?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 25, 2017, 04:38:04 AM
MH Solenoids coils and pancake coils have different behavior because their self induction are different , so you simple can not compare in the same perspective when measure a solenoid normal coil or bifilar pancake coil .
About you saying  TheOldScientist's are feeding the coils with a sine wave how you have so sure about that ? Could be a square wave and is for sure . He talk about the resonance frequency coil , and to me is clear that if we feed a pancake bifilar coil  even with a square wave when is in resonance frequency , the output will be a sine wave even ljagged scope traces like you say .
like you told   "Sorry, but I personally have very low confidence in TheOldScientist" i feel exactly the same in relation to you .
What is depreciate is you say He is free energy clickbait when he share some of the best videos explanation that you could find in youtube .
Maybe because comments like yours he close the channel only to a particular subscribers this is clickbait ? I think not .
There you have a jagged scope feed by a square wave .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1wMalWqa7o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1wMalWqa7o)

On a fundamental level, solenoid coils and pancake coils are not different.  Their behaviour is fundamentally the same.  There will be observable differences between different solenoid coils and different pancake coils in terms of resonant frequencies and the shape of the magnetic fields around the coils and other parameters, but these are best defined as characteristics and not as real differences.  It's important for experimenters to realize this.  You are suggesting that they can't be compared and their behaviour is different.  What specifically are you talking about?

For TheOldScientist, when you look for a self-resonant frequency for a coil, you must use sine waves and if your scope trace is not displaying a sine wave something is wrong.  If you don't know why you have to use a sine wave you can discuss this with your friends on the forum.  He made a mistake with respect to his resistance reading.  What have you become if you can't even state that someone made a mistake making a resistance measurement?  If you understand how wire resistance works, how could you come to any other possible conclusion?

What you want to do is get past being upset about what I said about the TheOldScientist clip and instead understand why I said what I said and appreciate it and understand it.  My comments were true, valid comments.  If he did the clip differently and did a great job then I would have said that he did a great job.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 25, 2017, 07:16:37 AM
synchro1,

If you have a bifilar coil and you measured 1.45mH for any one of the windings out of the two and then you measure 5.81mH for the two windings in series connection as you wrote then there is nothing wrong: you are correct with this.

The problem is not this but as follows:
if you make a single wire coil with the same amount of wire you used for the two bifilar windings  i.e. the DC resistance of this single wire coil would be also 5 Ohm (same wire length and same wire OD like the two windings together have in the bifilar) and the mechanical sizes such as the diameter and the length of this coil would be nicely comparable to that of your bifilar coil,
then what L inductance do you think you would measure for this single wire coil?

Because this is the real question here to answer, right?

The answer is you would measure pretty close to the 5.81mH L value. 

I built two such coils, one with a single wire from say 10m long piece of wire, label it as coil A and then I made a bifilar coil from 2 x 5m long wires guided in parallel and connected the two wires in series as you wrote, label this as coil B. I measured very nearly identical L inductances for coil A and coil B. Back then this comparison was done not only by me but Magluvin and TinselKoala: we demonstrated this and you continuously criticised all 3 of us, often with rude words. Three persons separately cannot have crappy L meters.  :o

Remember what you wrote in your post #33 above:

"Tesla bifilar coils have twice the inductance of single wire coils of the same gauge and copper weight" 

why I quoted this (though the first part of it is not correct) is that it shows you are aware of the condition: the single wire coil should have the same copper weight as the two windings have in the bifilar coil, hence this should mean the length of the wire used for the single wire coil and the added length of the two windings in the bifilar coil should be equal and of the same wire gauge. 

Please demonstrate the measured L inductance of your single wire coil wound with the conditions above.
It is fine you tested your bifilar coil inductance for the individual windings and for their series connection. This latter nicely justifies that if you double the number of turns you get 4 times the inductance, right?


Gyula

Gyula,

Please take a very close look at Gotoluc's "Self running coil #15":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8BehANEVUo
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 25, 2017, 08:53:44 AM
Gyula,

I just wound a single wire coil of the same gauge on an identical bobbin and measured the Ohms and Inductance. The test results show that you're right as regards the air core coils. I could only fit 4 Ohms worth of wire on the bobbin. The inductance was 4.3 mh. The serial bifilar at 5 Ohms delivered  5.81 mh. The ratio is pretty close at 1.162 mh per Ohm for the serial bifilar and 1.05 mh per Ohm for the single wire coil. There's clearly no where near the 100% difference Gotoluc measures with his ferrite toroid coils. nor the twice the magnetic strength my iron nail core serial bifilar demonstrated. The sloppy lash wrap of my single wire coil accounts for the slightly lower inductance to Ohms ratio. I concede that TK's measurements are correct and that his meter is functional.

It appears the ferrite core plays a critical role in the doubling of inductance with this Tesla bifilar connection. Maybe TK can run a ferrite core into his bore holes and make comparison measurements for us to help.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 25, 2017, 09:29:42 AM
On a fundamental level, solenoid coils and pancake coils are not different.  Their behaviour is fundamentally the same.  There will be observable differences between different solenoid coils and different pancake coils in terms of resonant frequencies and the shape of the magnetic fields around the coils and other parameters, but these are best defined as characteristics and not as real differences.  It's important for experimenters to realize this.  You are suggesting that they can't be compared and their behaviour is different.  What specifically are you talking about?

For TheOldScientist, when you look for a self-resonant frequency for a coil, you must use sine waves and if your scope trace is not displaying a sine wave something is wrong.  If you don't know why you have to use a sine wave you can discuss this with your friends on the forum.  He made a mistake with respect to his resistance reading.  What have you become if you can't even state that someone made a mistake making a resistance measurement?  If you understand how wire resistance works, how could you come to any other possible conclusion?

What you want to do is get past being upset about what I said about the TheOldScientist clip and instead understand why I said what I said and appreciate it and understand it.  My comments were true, valid comments.  If he did the clip differently and did a great job then I would have said that he did a great job.

No MH is not my intention become upset about what you said, i just give a opinion in the same coin like when you answer in that mode , but you have the right of don't like their videos or from others for sure  .

About i say that solenoid coils and pancake coils are different i maintain what i said .

A bifilar pancake coil is capable of holding more charge than a single wound coil and that is known .
When this coils are operated at resonance, the distributed capacitance on the bifilar  overcome the counter electromotive force that normal is find in conventional coils .
Seems i really don't know what is resistance need to learn again , but seems to,  that you talk about this particular subject of bifilar pancake coils without any practical experience, but just by heart or based in what you hear.

The topic is "The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency "    and i tell you that is possible match their resonance coil with a square wave where the output will become a sinus wave , and myself are exactly discuss on that perspective .

 Did Tesla use a sine wave to feed that type coils ?  i think not  :) you invented the flat pancake coil ?

It's important for experimenters to realize that they simple can not assume something only because persons like you are not able to view more deeply some of aspects of bifilar pancake coil that are denied .
But persons like you that use the sentence  " carved in stone" to justify something without testing ,for sure will take their stubbornness to their grave stone too.

I already say to you in other occasion but i will repeat myself :
fool is the one who thinks already knows everything closing the "window" to learn and improve their wisdom.

Have a nice day MH

 

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 25, 2017, 10:22:22 AM
I wrapped a high perm ferrite rod of 1000, with a bifilar coil, shocked the coil and measured a steady rise in Ohmic coil resistance over 24 hours. A "Mag Amp" effect. I concluded that the bifilar resonance was magnetizing the ferrite core free of charge. This was the theory I used to explain the "Impulse Magnetization" of the iorn nail. I spent a long time explaining this effect in my earlier threads.

I called the "Tesla Coil Builder" bifilar test a parlor trick, because as I revealed, the nails alone without the coils attached to the battery, differed in permanent magnet strength by a factor of 2.

I "Impulse Shocked" both nail core coils, then they sat over night. I noticed the difference the following day, and set about trying to explain the effect. I proposed the electron alignment theory that explains how the bifilar ferrite core resonance actually transmutes the core into a higher isotope. This effect has nothing what-so-ever to do with the kind of power supply to the coil TK is imagining.

This effect is the "Magic" of the bifilar, and Gotoluc's double inductance measurements and self running coil effect tie into it. "Evostars" demonstrates conclusively in his video tests, that the magnetic field of the series bifilar coil in resonance is "Outside the Coil"!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 25, 2017, 12:24:40 PM
Nelson:

The central issue is what is the reason for taking a bifilar pancake coil and exciting it at its self-resonant frequency?  Why do this?  What are you trying to accomplish?  What practical applications are there for this?  It's fun to "play" but what is the point behind the playing?  Those are the types of questions that are avoided and never posed and never answered by many experimenters.

Here is another set of questions:  Why a bifilar pancake coil?  Why not a regular pancake coil?  Does making it bifilar really do anything more than let the experimenter proclaim that there is a stronger electric field between the wires?  So what?  What about a solenoid bifilar coil, or even just an ordinary solenoid coil?  Both of the solenoid coils can be excited at their self-resonant frequencies also.   So there are four types of coils that I just mentioned.  What do you want to accomplish with the coil and what can you say about each of the four types of coils relative to what you want to accomplish?  We are talking about doing something practical with the coil.  I get the sense that these are difficult questions for many experimenters to answer.

A bifilar pancake coil, a similar pancake coil, and a bifilar solenoid coils and a regular solenoid coil with approximately the same amount of inductance as the pancake coils will all have different self-resonant frequencies and we know that for the two bifilar cases the self-resonant frequencies will be lower.  So what, what can you do with this information beyond making a frequency measurement and an observation?

Suppose you want your coil to act as a generic inductor in an electronics circuit.  Which of the four types of coil would be the best choice for this?   The answer is the regular solenoid coil.  The regular solenoid coil will meet the design goal with less wire and less resistance and less unwanted self-capacitance and have a higher working frequency bandwidth.

Suppose you want to make an air-core transformer.  Which of the four types of coil would be the best choice for this?  One more time, the answer is the regular solenoid coil.  The regular solenoid coil will meet the design goal with a more efficient coupling for power transfer, less wire used and less resistance and less unwanted self-capacitance and have a higher working frequency bandwidth.

When you look at a datasheet for a small coil that you might put onto a PCB they give you the maximum operating frequency for the coil and the self-resonant frequency for the coil.  Electronics designers avoid feeding the coil signals that go higher in frequency than the maximum operating frequency because above the maximum operating frequency you are approaching the self-resonant frequency for the coil and at those high frequencies the coil fails to function as a coil anymore.  As a general rule of thumb, electronics designers avoid the self-resonant frequencies of coils in their circuits.

Quote
A bifilar pancake coil is capable of holding more charge than a single wound coil and that is known .
When this coils are operated at resonance, the distributed capacitance on the bifilar  overcome the counter electromotive force that normal is find in conventional coils.

Not really, because the typical model for self-resonance of a coil is a parallel LC circuit.  A parallel LC circuit when connected in series with a load acts as an infinite impedance at the self-resonant frequency.  That means that the coil is acting like a 100% counter electromotive force device that opposes the excitation frequency with an equal and opposite voltage.

I will just repeat to you again:  I am telling you with 100% certainty that it is a major mistake to use a square wave when trying to find the self-resonant frequency of a coil.  What you should be doing is trying to understand for yourself why I am saying that.  Rejecting what I am telling you is the wrong course of action.

Quote
It's important for experimenters to realize that they simple can not assume something only because persons like you are not able to view more deeply some of aspects of bifilar pancake coil that are denied .
But persons like you that use the sentence  "carved in stone" to justify something without testing ,for sure will take their stubbornness to their grave stone too.

I probably just raised more questions about bifilar pancake coils and three other variations that you may never have even considered.  This is to get you and your peers to start critically thinking and examining all of the issues.  Chances are that I am viewing this issue more deeply than you have ever done before, and I am not even a hard-core electronics guy.  Sometimes things really are carved in stone.

I am challenging you and your peers to improve your wisdom.  If I was in your shoes I would test four coils, a pancake bifilar, a regular pancake coil, a bifilar solenoid coil, and a regular solenoid coil.  I would define some objectives, develop some test procedures, and arrive at some conclusions.  The general conclusion will be that the regular solenoid coil performs the best and offers the most inductance per unit of wire length and therefore has the least amount of resistive losses.  It also has the least unwanted self-capacitance that reduces the working bandwidth of the coil.  If you think a series bifilar coil is something special then you have to make tests and demonstrate what makes it special and why.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: gyulasun on March 25, 2017, 02:07:16 PM
Gyula,

I just wound a single wire coil of the same gauge on an identical bobbin and measured the Ohms and Inductance. The test results show that you're right as regards the air core coils. I could only fit 4 Ohms worth of wire on the bobbin. The inductance was 4.3 mh. The serial bifilar at 5 Ohms delivered  5.81 mh. The ratio is pretty close at 1.162 mh per Ohm for the serial bifilar and 1.05 mh per Ohm for the single wire coil. There's clearly no where near the 100% difference Gotoluc measures with his ferrite toroid coils. nor the twice the magnetic strength my iron nail core serial bifilar demonstrated. The sloppy lash wrap of my single wire coil accounts for the slightly lower inductance to Ohms ratio. I concede that TK's measurements are correct and that his meter is functional.

It appears the ferrite core plays a critical role in the doubling of inductance with this Tesla bifilar connection. Maybe TK can run a ferrite core into his bore holes and make comparison measurements for us to help.

synchro1,

Very good you built the coil with single wire and obviously the fact that you did not have the same length of wire and had 4 Ohm DC resistance (instead of 5 Ohms) explains the 4.3mH inductance instead of the 5.81mH, no problem. 

You refer to Gotoluc's video, back then he used those toroidal coils in his circuit shown here:
http://overunity.com/8892/self-running-coil/msg233254/#msg233254 (http://overunity.com/8892/self-running-coil/msg233254/#msg233254) 

so his toroidal core is not wound bifilarly but with one winding (in 5 layers) is wound on one half of the core and the other winding (also in 5 layers) is wound on the other half of the core, ok?
Such winding style is used for instance in so called common mode choke coils, see here one with single layer windings placed on the right and on the left hand side of the core:
http://wcmagnetics.com/product/50-amp-toroidal-common-mode-choke-507-series/ (http://wcmagnetics.com/product/50-amp-toroidal-common-mode-choke-507-series/)

This type of winding can have double the inductance when the two windings are correctly connected in series (i.e. not to work as common mode choke) versus the same amount of wire (the two half windings have together) wound onto the same toroidal core in the normal way. However, we are now discussing Tesla style bifilar coils, not the winding style Luc used.

IT is not the ferrite core which playes the critical role but the winding style and position of the windings with respect to each other on the core (mutual inductance) that counts in the resulting L inductance of the series windings.

Gyula 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Dog-One on March 25, 2017, 02:22:04 PM
Quote from: MileHigh or MileDeep
The regular solenoid coil will meet the design goal with a more efficient coupling for power transfer, less wire used and less resistance and less unwanted self-capacitance and have a higher working frequency bandwidth.

What if I'm not at all interested in power transfer?  What if I'm after something completely different?

Can you answer me what it is I could possibly be looking for?

If you have no clue, maybe it's time to cease and desist.


I'm quite certain Nelson knows what I'm referring to.   ;)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 25, 2017, 02:27:19 PM
Quote from Milehigh:

"The central issue is what is the reason for taking a bifilar pancake coil and exciting it at its self-resonant frequency"?

Tesla used the bifilar pancake to transmit and recieve wireless power which is less efficient to do with the bifilar solenoid or the single wire pancake.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 25, 2017, 02:35:34 PM
synchro1,

Very good you built the coil with single wire and obviously the fact that you did not have the same length of wire and had 4 Ohm DC resistance (instead of 5 Ohms) explains the 4.3mH inductance instead of the 5.81mH, no problem. 

You refer to Gotoluc's video, back then he used those toroidal coils in his circuit shown here:
http://overunity.com/8892/self-running-coil/msg233254/#msg233254 (http://overunity.com/8892/self-running-coil/msg233254/#msg233254) 

so his toroidal core is not wound bifilarly but with one winding (in 5 layers) is wound on one half of the core and the other winding (also in 5 layers) is wound on the other half of the core, ok?
Such winding style is used for instance in so called common mode choke coils, see here one with single layer windings placed on the right and on the left hand side of the core:
http://wcmagnetics.com/product/50-amp-toroidal-common-mode-choke-507-series/ (http://wcmagnetics.com/product/50-amp-toroidal-common-mode-choke-507-series/)

This type of winding can have double the inductance when the two windings are correctly connected in series (i.e. not to work as common mode choke) versus the same amount of wire (the two half windings have together) wound onto the same toroidal core in the normal way. However, we are now discussing Tesla style bifilar coils, not the winding style Luc used.

IT is not the ferrite core which playes the critical role but the winding style and position of the windings with respect to each other on the core (mutual inductance) that counts in the resulting L inductance of the series windings.

Gyula

How would you explain the doubling of magnetic strength in my "Tesla Coil Builder" bifilar vs. single wire electro-magnet test with the trombone paper clips?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 25, 2017, 02:59:56 PM
Hi MH , you talk a lot make me write a lot too :) and English is my third language so not easy answering to last big "testament".


“The central issue is what is the reason for taking a bifilar pancake coil and exciting it at its self-resonant frequency?Why do this? What are you trying to accomplish? What practical applications are there for this? It's fun to "play" but what is the point behind the playing? Those are the types of questions that are avoided and never posed and never answered by many experimenters. “

What i try accomplish have nothing to do with topic , i’m not talk about my own work,  but about  the topic that Evostars open .

“Here is another set of questions: Why a bifilar pancake coil? Why not a regular pancake coil? Does making it bifilar really do anything more than let the experimenter proclaim that there is a stronger electric field between the wires?”

Myself already answer about that point but i answer again :
Self induction of coil will be zero.  In a pancake bifilar coil  the magnetic field of one of winding is  equal and opposite to that created by the other wind canceling their self inductance.


“Suppose you want to make an air-core transformer. Which of the four types of coil would be the best choice for this? One more time, the answer is the regular solenoid coil. The regular solenoid coil will meet the design goal with a more efficient coupling for power transfer, less wire used and less resistance and less unwanted self-capacitance and have a higher working frequency bandwidth.”

Sorry but i don’t agree about that point that regular solenoid have a more efficient coupling in power transfer , and even with less wire , resistance and self-capacitance . You should test before talk otherwise you are just talking something that someone write and you assume that true is unbreakable .

“I will just repeat to you again: I am telling you with 100% certainty that it is a major mistake to use a square wave when trying to find the self-resonant frequency of a coil. What you should be doing is trying to understand for yourself why I am saying that. Rejecting what I am telling you is the wrong course of action.”

Sure i understand , that point and i did not say that is the best option or not , just tell that is possible with a square wave find the self -resonant frequency of the coil in same way.
About i go in wrong course of action …  Will it? :)

“I probably just raised more questions about bifilar pancake coils and three other variations that you may never have even considered.This is to get you and your peers to start critically thinking and examining all of the issues. Chances are that I am viewing this issue more deeply than you have ever done before, and I am not even a hard-core electronics guy. Sometimes things really are carved in stone.”

Now you are start acting a bit more weird  … what peers are you referring ?  About you say that are viewing more deeply than me , for sure not , go to bench and test it is easy and after you can show us .
OHHH i forget ! You don’t need you already answer that in last email your “peers” already did that no chance of that “peers” fail.

“I am challenging you and your peers to improve your wisdom”
I’m improve everyday , even with less correct information provide by other , and i do not feel like I knew everything, my learning window is still open .


“The general conclusion will be that the regular solenoid coil performs the best and offers the most inductance per unit of wire length and therefore has the least amount of resistive losses. It also has the least unwanted self-capacitance that reduces the working bandwidth of the coil”

Is your conclusion and i accepted that , but not agree .

“If you think a series bifilar coil is something special then you have to make tests and demonstrate what makes it special and why.”

I don't think that coil is special , i guarantee that is real special because i already test it, otherwise why should i use in my  work ? . Should i demonstrate to whom ?
To you ?
Just put you hands at work and see by yourself , otherwise you are just throw away words like a parrot nothing more . What is the difficulty to you in test it ?  Is you that are try convince me and my “peers” about your point of view , go forward show something to us ! To me since i’m a member of this forum it will a pleasure see you make something more “palpable” then simple talk .

Have a nice day MH


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 25, 2017, 03:47:40 PM
Impulse magnetization, "Lazy Eight OU":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeJ5wHBpaf4&t=49s
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 25, 2017, 05:03:12 PM
I got shicked 18 months ago when I commented on Skycollection's Conradelectro P/I P/O test. Jorge determined that his six Hexafilar LED's, not connected by anything more than wireless induction between his Tesla serial bifilar pancake coils, sustained amperage but suffered a voltage drop instead while the LED's maintained their luminosity. The reverse of conventional grid usage where they feed amperage into the system, and voltage remains constant. Suppose we have to feed lights in parallel down a 10 miles long wire. Ohms law of inverse resistance to voltage points to the advantage of stepping voltage up to feed the farthest lights, rather then generating amperage.     
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 25, 2017, 05:17:13 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiLgM3EkQBE
With this bifilar pancake coil i can charge the 12 v battery without magnet rotor, can you describe this experiment...?
Nice experiment, and a nice stack of pancake coils!

I've been wondering about charging a battery with the dielectric resonant voltage. Thanks for showing that it works.

Have you noticed a difference, in how the coil is connected? I noticed, north is stronger. Why do you not use 2 diodes, to create a plus and minus from the resonant sine wave?

really cool to hear it buzzing with the magnet on top. I hear my coils buzzing sometimes, when I load them unbalanced.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 25, 2017, 05:42:21 PM
Nice experiment, and a nice stack of pancake coils!

I've been wondering about charging a battery with the dielectric resonant voltage. Thanks for showing that it works.

Have you noticed a difference, in how the coil is connected? I noticed, north is stronger. Why do you not use 2 diodes, to create a plus and minus from the resonant sine wave?

really cool to hear it buzzing with the magnet on top. I hear my coils buzzing sometimes, when I load them unbalanced.

Quote from Miles High:

"The central issue is what is the reason for taking a bifilar pancake coil and exciting it at its self-resonant frequency?  Why do this?  What are you trying to accomplish? What practical applications are there for this"?

Skycollection is sending power with a longitudinal magnet wave wirelessly between his bifilar pancake coils at self resonating frequency. This conduit for power acts like a super conductor.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 25, 2017, 06:15:34 PM
What if I'm not at all interested in power transfer?  What if I'm after something completely different?

Can you answer me what it is I could possibly be looking for?

If you have no clue, maybe it's time to cease and desist.

I'm quite certain Nelson knows what I'm referring to.   ;)

I can't read your mind, period.  Power transfer was an example of a practical application for a coil.  So you tell me what you are looking for.  I would really like to know what you are referring to.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 25, 2017, 06:56:38 PM
Tesla tried to sell his Wardenclyffe wireless power system with the advantage of instantly tailoring output to match the load. Currently, power companies pump water up hill at low usage times and release it through hydroelectric generators at peak demand hours.

Skycollection's wireless conduit works the same way as Tesla's system; Tesla could increase power with a transformer rheostat on demand. There is no current consumption. The voltage at the outlet is unchanged. When demand increases, higher voltage is sent instantly through the longitudinal magnet wave conduit, and spread evenly throughout the grid.

The advantage Skycollection's magnet wave conduit has over Tesla's original system, is that no one can steal the power like they may have from Tesla's World Wide Power broadcast system. Everyone's heard how J.P. Morgan had the Wardenclyffe tower dynamited when he realized there was no way to meter the usage. 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 25, 2017, 07:16:24 PM
Hi Nelson well it looks like we are on a learning curve here for through's [true?] coil winders who didn't know and the mothers who didn't teach manners and respect off other inner souls into there kids.
+1

opening our minds, requires opening our hearts
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: gyulasun on March 25, 2017, 07:27:52 PM
How would you explain the doubling of magnetic strength in my "Tesla Coil Builder" bifilar vs. single wire electro-magnet test with the trombone paper clips?

Synchro1,

I am not qualified to explain your unique way of making electromagnets, magnetizing first the core that you intend to use in an electromagnet by blasting huge current via the nails etc etc.   I refer to your Reply #59 and #66 too.

All I can say is good luck to you.

Gyula
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 25, 2017, 08:16:08 PM
+1

opening our minds, requires opening our hearts

wise words! ;)

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 25, 2017, 08:48:28 PM
Nelson:

Quote
Myself already answer about that point but i answer again :
Self induction of coil will be zero.  In a pancake bifilar coil  the magnetic field of one of winding is  equal and opposite to that created by the other wind canceling their self inductance.

No, in fact the self-induction of the coil will not be zero in a bifilar pancake coil.   The magnetic fields of each of the windings add together.  The currents in each of the two windings travel in the same direction.  At lower frequencies a bifilar pancake coil and a regular pancake coil will look exactly the same.

Quote
Sorry but i don’t agree about that point that regular solenoid have a more efficient coupling in power transfer , and even with less wire , resistance and self-capacitance . You should test before talk otherwise you are just talking something that someone write and you assume that true is unbreakable.

In a certain sense I suppose that we are both in the same position then, aren't we?  You are talking before testing also, aren't you?  So why do you disagree with me?

A pancake coil exhibits a substantial amount of magnetic field self cancellation where part of the magnetic field generated by one loop of wire is cancelled out by part of the magnetic field of the adjacent loops of wire.  A long solenoid coil will also do this but a solenoid coil that is shorter in length compared to the diameter will exhibit much less magnetic field self-cancellation resulting in a higher inductance per unit length of wire.  The center of a short solenoid coil is almost a pure area of flux addition with no cancellation.  Therefore if you place two short solenoid coils face-to-face you have a very good coupling of flux from one coil to the other coil with very little flux self-cancellation.  It's a no-brainer that two short solenoid coils will couple better together as an air-core transformer than two pancake coils.

Quote
Sure i understand , that point and i did not say that is the best option or not , just tell that is possible with a square wave find the self -resonant frequency of the coil in same way.

Yes it is possible to find the resonant frequency of a coil with a square wave excitation but it is also very possible to make a mistake using this method.  What I am not hearing from you is why there is a problem with a square wave and why the proper way to do it is with a sine wave.  Do you know the reasons?  I see no discussion about this critical issue.

Quote
Now you are start acting a bit more weird  … what peers are you referring ?  About you say that are viewing more deeply than me , for sure not , go to bench and test it is easy and after you can show us .
OHHH i forget ! You don’t need you already answer that in last email your “peers” already did that no chance of that “peers” fail.

What is so strange about saying that your peers are the people in this thread and on this forum?  If you are viewing more deeply than me explain yourself please.  Test what on the bench?

Quote
I don't think that coil is special , i guarantee that is real special because i already test it, otherwise why should i use in my  work ? . Should i demonstrate to whom?

Why don't you share your information right here with your peers?  What is real special about a pancake coil?

Quote
otherwise you are just throw away words like a parrot

Nope, I am not throwing away words like a parrot.  I am raising serious issues for consideration and asking for substantive information.  It's too easy to convince yourself that you are in some "magical bifilar pancake coil club."  I am looking for real substance.  This is a way to induce you to think critically about what you are doing and ask yourselves about the merits of your testing and about the merits of different coil configurations.  Just because Tesla issued a patent for a bifilar pancake coil does not make it "magic."  Do you see what I am saying?

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 25, 2017, 08:57:50 PM
+1
opening our minds, requires opening our hearts

Speaking of opening your mind, do you actually know how a coil works?  It's fun to play with them but I can tell you that more than 95% of experimenters on places like this don't know how coils actually work.  It's a strange phenomenon and I can tell you that you would be much better off to understand how a coil works first in order to get more out of your experiments.  If you are beginner it is not an easy subject to tackle.  In many ways the way coils work are counter-intuitive and it can be a difficult subject to understand.  That's why Bedini never explained how coils work to his followers at the various conferences he was part of.  He was better off leaving the whole subject shrouded in mystery.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 25, 2017, 09:13:00 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiLgM3EkQBE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiLgM3EkQBE)
With this bifilar pancake coil i can charge the 12 v battery without magnet rotor, can you describe this experiment...?

Jorge, I looked at your clip.  It's just a variation on when you have a Bedini motor where the rotor does not turn and the Bedini circuit goes into spontaneous self-oscillation.  You have an oscillating circuit that is energizing the pancake coils and then the pancake coils discharge into the battery when the transistors switch off.  Exactly the same circuit could be built and demonstrated with an ordinary coil.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 25, 2017, 09:27:27 PM
Nice experiment, and a nice stack of pancake coils!

I've been wondering about charging a battery with the dielectric resonant voltage. Thanks for showing that it works.

Have you noticed a difference, in how the coil is connected? I noticed, north is stronger. Why do you not use 2 diodes, to create a plus and minus from the resonant sine wave?

really cool to hear it buzzing with the magnet on top. I hear my coils buzzing sometimes, when I load them unbalanced.

A little reality check for you Evostars.  The battery is not being charged with a "dielectric resonant voltage."  I don't even know what that means.  The battery is being charged with current pulses from the coil.  It's very plain and ordinary.  In Jorge's circuit it would not make sense to have two diodes at all, the current to charge the battery flows in one direction only and you only need one diode.  There is no "resonant sine wave."  Nothing in that circuit is resonating in the true sense of the word, rather, the circuit is oscillating.  There is a difference between "resonating" and "oscillating."  For example, when a 555 timer circuit outputs a square wave signal, nothing in the 555 timer circuit is resonating.  Rather, the 555 timer circuit is oscillating as a "bistable multivibrator."  That is somewhat analogous to what is happening in Jorge's circuit.

What is the coil actually doing in this circuit?  It's being energized when the transistors switch on.  When the transistors switch off, the coll discharges into the battery.  There is no sine wave or resonance in sight.

This is just me giving you an example of why you should learn how a coil actually works to get more out of your experiments.  It's all up to you.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 25, 2017, 11:24:22 PM
Nelson:

No, in fact the self-induction of the coil will not be zero in a bifilar pancake coil.   The magnetic fields of each of the windings add together.  The currents in each of the two windings travel in the same direction.  At lower frequencies a bifilar pancake coil and a regular pancake coil will look exactly the same.

In a certain sense I suppose that we are both in the same position then, aren't we?  You are talking before testing also, aren't you?  So why do you disagree with me?

A pancake coil exhibits a substantial amount of magnetic field self cancellation where part of the magnetic field generated by one loop of wire is cancelled out by part of the magnetic field of the adjacent loops of wire.  A long solenoid coil will also do this but a solenoid coil that is shorter in length compared to the diameter will exhibit much less magnetic field self-cancellation resulting in a higher inductance per unit length of wire.  The center of a short solenoid coil is almost a pure area of flux addition with no cancellation.  Therefore if you place two short solenoid coils face-to-face you have a very good coupling of flux from one coil to the other coil with very little flux self-cancellation.  It's a no-brainer that two short solenoid coils will couple better together as an air-core transformer than two pancake coils.

Yes it is possible to find the resonant frequency of a coil with a square wave excitation but it is also very possible to make a mistake using this method.  What I am not hearing from you is why there is a problem with a square wave and why the proper way to do it is with a sine wave.  Do you know the reasons?  I see no discussion about this critical issue.

What is so strange about saying that your peers are the people in this thread and on this forum?  If you are viewing more deeply than me explain yourself please.  Test what on the bench?

Why don't you share your information right here with your peers?  What is real special about a pancake coil?

Nope, I am not throwing away words like a parrot.  I am raising serious issues for consideration and asking for substantive information.  It's too easy to convince yourself that you are in some "magical bifilar pancake coil club."  I am looking for real substance.  This is a way to induce you to think critically about what you are doing and ask yourselves about the merits of your testing and about the merits of different coil configurations.  Just because Tesla issued a patent for a bifilar pancake coil does not make it "magic."  Do you see what I am saying?

MileHigh

Sorry, MH but nothing that i could say will change your position , and i can only accept your opinion, but you will not listen to what you want listen.
About you say that we are both in the same position , that statement  are Miles away from the true because you are just a more theoretical person , and you knowledge is based not in practical work itself  but only in lecture . Are you a researcher ? Can you point to me or to others where i could find some of your experiments in last years ? I will appreciate that you could provide to us some of that work , sincerely.

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 25, 2017, 11:44:48 PM
Sorry, MH but nothing that i could say will change your position , and i can only accept your opinion, but you will not listen to what you want listen.
About you say that we are both in the same position , that statement  are Miles away from the true because you are just a more theoretical person , and you knowledge is based not in practical work itself  but only in lecture . Are you a researcher ? Can you point to me or to others where i could find some of your experiments in last years ? I will appreciate that you could provide to us some of that work , sincerely.

Nelson Rocha

Nelson, I asked you specific questions about your claims about pancake coils and your bench work and you are avoiding answering them.  Why are you avoiding answering?

How do you know my knowledge is not based on any practical work?  Aren't you sensing that I have some technical knowledge?

Forget about the "show me your experiments or I won't talk with you" game.  We are having a conversation right now and you have not responded to the issues I raised and the questions I posed to you in my last posting to you.  Please respond to my last posting.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 25, 2017, 11:55:21 PM
Im not here posting for a discussion. I dont care for that. So I dont read all your posts. Im here to give my vision, my thuth. And I might be wrong. I know because I have been wrong a lot. Thats what i call learning. To think for myself. to question, and listen to my heart.

I made some pictures about the fields of the bifilar coil.
Shown in red and blue are 10 windings. You see only half of a bifilar pancake coil. The other half is mirrored on the right (use youre imagination).
I provide 100 volts, the red is one winding into the center, the blue is the second winding into the center, connected by the grey wire.

The voltage difference is 50 and 40. this 10V difference, is because i only use 10 windings in this example. If if would have 1000 windings, the difference would be 0,1 volt. (0,1%), so 49,9V and 50V.

A single wire, with current, radiates the dielectric field outwards, and the magnetic field circles around it. I also included a picture from Steinmetz, that shows the magnetic and dielectric field lines of two conducting wires. (figure yourself out if the current flows in the same direction or not).

The magnetic field flows over the windings of the pancake coil. above, and below are different directions, inward to the center hole, and outward to the outer rim. (the other side is mirrored).

If we would look from above, we would see a whirlpool/vortex of the magnetic field. One side is centrifugal, the other side is centripetal.
meaning, flowing towards the center from the outer rim, or flowing from the center outwards.

The direction of the vortex is determined by the current flow (right hand rule).

With AC, we have alternating current, meaning the direction of the vortex reverses. At the same time the voltage differnce between the windings remains the same. The dielectric field seeks the smallest place, which is the center of the coil. there it creates pressure. This pressure pushes out the field lines, creating the magnetic field. it can only go up or down. the direction is determined by the direction of the current flow, making the magnetic vortex.

therefor one side is strong in pushing, generating pressure (north) while the other is pulling, sucking in the field lines. (south)

Al fields are ether fields. the magnetic field is a ether field, the dielectric field is a ether field. It is the configuration of the field lines, that determines its actions.  when a ether whirlpool/vortex is created, we have a magnetic field(turning left or right is north or south). If the field has radial coherent lines, we have a dielectric field. (gravity is another topic, but guess what...)

With AC the dielectric field, is building up between the wires, in the smallest place. The magnetic field vortexes have to travel all the way around the coil. A much bigger distance than the space between the windings. This takes time. It takes time for the magnetic field to build up, and then when the current alters (AC) the magnetic field vortex flow, is reversed! This reversing field has inertia. At the same time the dielectric field between the spiral windings, has no difficulty in sitting there. It is not related to the alternating current. It is related to the voltage.

At a certain frequency, the magnetic field with its inertia, cant collapse anymore. It becomes static. The pulses it receives from the coil, are perfectly aligned with the building up and collapsing of the magnetic field. the field. The field gets a pulse, just when it was about to collapse. so it stays there. it becomes a stable vortex. A vortex of ether flow. sucking in, and pushing out.

the dielectric field rises in voltage. it starts radiating outwards, it becomes free of the magnetic vortex restricktions. the dielectric field expands outside of the windings, outside of the coil. this is why a neon tub lights up, its because of the dielectric field at its resonant frequency.

So far, my understaning, you dont have to agree, I dont say its true, its just my perspective. Alot of it is based on Eric p. Dollard, telsa, steinmets, Ken Wheeler, jj thompson etc...
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 26, 2017, 12:19:16 AM
Nelson, I asked you specific questions about your claims about pancake coils and your bench work and you are avoiding answering them.  Why are you avoiding answering?

How do you know my knowledge is not based on any practical work?  Aren't you sensing that I have some technical knowledge?

Forget about the "show me your experiments or I won't talk with you" game.  We are having a conversation right now and you have not responded to the issues I raised and the questions I posed to you in my last posting to you.  Please respond to my last posting.

MileHigh

MH ,
Did i told or write "show me your experiments or I won't talk with you" ?    I think not .  I already response to you but you try all time refute my answers  .
What i should do about that ? Only respect you opinion nothing more . I can not argue with someone that have their own solid opinion already formed, and i'm not try convince you of nothing or should i try make that like you  ?

 I only ask if you are a researcher , and if you are , point us  to you show some of you work just that . To me and is not need have a special "sense" to understand that you have knowledge and most of that is based in your crystallized intelligence  that you collect in your professional career like i already explain to you some posts behind. I could sense to that for sure you have already a advanced age , making you shielding yourself to protect your ego , maybe because in some part of your life you already work in something relevant or important in your professional career .

Is enough MH  , let topic run normally , our conversation already start upset the owner of topic evostars and he have right about that , because we already exposed some of our opinions even different opinions .

Nelson Rocha

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 26, 2017, 12:21:09 AM
Im not here posting for a discussion. I dont care for that. So I dont read all your posts. Im here to give my vision, my thuth. And I might be wrong. I know because I have been wrong a lot. Thats what i call learning. To think for myself. to question, and listen to my heart.

I made some pictures about the fields of the bifilar coil.
Shown in red and blue are 10 windings. You see only half of a bifilar pancake coil. The other half is mirrored on the right (use youre imagination).
I provide 100 volts, the red is one winding into the center, the blue is the second winding into the center, connected by the grey wire.

The voltage difference is 50 and 40. this 10V difference, is because i only use 10 windings in this example. If if would have 1000 windings, the difference would be 0,1 volt. (0,1%), so 49,9V and 50V.

A single wire, with current, radiates the dielectric field outwards, and the magnetic field circles around it. I also included a picture from Steinmetz, that shows the magnetic and dielectric field lines of two conducting wires. (figure yourself out if the current flows in the same direction or not).

The magnetic field flows over the windings of the pancake coil. above, and below are different directions, inward to the center hole, and outward to the outer rim. (the other side is mirrored).

If we would look from above, we would see a whirlpool/vortex of the magnetic field. One side is centrifugal, the other side is centripetal.
meaning, flowing towards the center from the outer rim, or flowing from the center outwards.

The direction of the vortex is determined by the current flow (right hand rule).

With AC, we have alternating current, meaning the direction of the vortex reverses. At the same time the voltage differnce between the windings remains the same. The dielectric field seeks the smallest place, which is the center of the coil. there it creates pressure. This pressure pushes out the field lines, creating the magnetic field. it can only go up or down. the direction is determined by the direction of the current flow, making the magnetic vortex.

therefor one side is strong in pushing, generating pressure (north) while the other is pulling, sucking in the field lines. (south)

Al fields are ether fields. the magnetic field is a ether field, the dielectric field is a ether field. It is the configuration of the field lines, that determines its actions.  when a ether whirlpool/vortex is created, we have a magnetic field(turning left or right is north or south). If the field has radial coherent lines, we have a dielectric field. (gravity is another topic, but guess what...)

With AC the dielectric field, is building up between the wires, in the smallest place. The magnetic field vortexes have to travel all the way around the coil. A much bigger distance than the space between the windings. This takes time. It takes time for the magnetic field to build up, and then when the current alters (AC) the magnetic field vortex flow, is reversed! This reversing field has inertia. At the same time the dielectric field between the spiral windings, has no difficulty in sitting there. It is not related to the alternating current. It is related to the voltage.

At a certain frequency, the magnetic field with its inertia, cant collapse anymore. It becomes static. The pulses it receives from the coil, are perfectly aligned with the building up and collapsing of the magnetic field. the field. The field gets a pulse, just when it was about to collapse. so it stays there. it becomes a stable vortex. A vortex of ether flow. sucking in, and pushing out.

the dielectric field rises in voltage. it starts radiating outwards, it becomes free of the magnetic vortex restricktions. the dielectric field expands outside of the windings, outside of the coil. this is why a neon tub lights up, its because of the dielectric field at its resonant frequency.

So far, my understaning, you dont have to agree, I dont say its true, its just my perspective. Alot of it is based on Eric p. Dollard, telsa, steinmets, Ken Wheeler, jj thompson etc...


Very nice explanation ***** stars :)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 26, 2017, 12:47:43 AM
Evostars:

Don't be passive-aggressive rude with this "I am not reading you" comment.

I attached a graphic that I got with a search.  Your shape of the magnetic field around a pancake coil is fundamentally correct.  However, it is not a vortex, there is no movement, there is no Bloch wall.  If you have DC going through a pancake coil, you can envision the magnetic field like a compressed static doughnut shape and of course in theory it extends out to infinity.  It simply represents the storage of the supplied electrical energy in the form of a magnetic field.

When it comes to magnetic fields there is actually no such thing as "North" and "South" because magnetic field lines form continuous loops.  "North" and "South" are nothing more than artificial nomenclature shortcuts that make it easier to discuss magnetic fields.  Yes, that means there is actually no such thing as a "North" magnetic field emanating from the north pole of a bar magnet.

One place where you are directing too much investigative energy, in my opinion, is with respect to the electric field lines between the turns of a pancake coil.  In terms of energy storage and what determines the electrical dynamics of a coil, the magnetic field and the energy stored in the magnetic field of a coil is the elephant, and the electric field and the energy stored in the electric field is the tiny insignificant ant.

What you should want to do it learn how a coil works in a circuit first and foremost, but ultimately that is your choice.  For example, if I said to you the instant you connect a coil to your battery source, what is the most interesting and relevant piece of information about that event?  I would not be surprised if you cannot answer that.

You need to look at art as an example.  Picasso and Warhol started off as regular commercial artists making ordinary paintings.  It's only after they mastered that part of the craft did they branch out and paint cubist figures with three eyes and replicate images of soup cans.  The point is understanding the basics gives you a foundation to learn more about the esoteric.

Quote
At a certain frequency, the magnetic field with its inertia, cant collapse anymore. It becomes static

Coils and their associated circuits have frequency transfer characteristics as you sweep the frequency up and down.  It is indeed a phenomenon related to inertia.  But there is no such thing as saying "the coil can't collapse anymore, it becomes static."  Understanding frequency characteristics and frequency transfer functions is one of the fundamental things about coils (and capacitors) that you should know if you want to understand what is happening on your bench.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 26, 2017, 12:57:12 AM
MH ,
Did i told or write "show me your experiments or I won't talk with you" ?    I think not .  I already response to you but you try all time refute my answers  .
What i should do about that ? Only respect you opinion nothing more . I can not argue with someone that have their own solid opinion already formed, and i'm not try convince you of nothing or should i try make that like you  ?

 I only ask if you are a researcher , and if you are , point us  to you show some of you work just that . To me and is not need have a special "sense" to understand that you have knowledge and most of that is based in your crystallized intelligence  that you collect in your professional career like i already explain to you some posts behind. I could sense to that for sure you have already a advanced age , making you shielding yourself to protect your ego , maybe because in some part of your life you already work in something relevant or important in your professional career .

Is enough MH  , let topic run normally , our conversation already start upset the owner of topic evostars and he have right about that , because we already exposed some of our opinions even different opinions .

Nelson Rocha

Sorry but I am going to translate that for you Nelson:  You stated that there is something special about a pancake coil and you have done research on your bench related to this.  I asked you for some details about what is so special about a pancake coil and what interesting research you have done on your bench and you have nothing to say.  I watched your clip where you lit a light bulb submerged in a glass of water which is not really an interesting experiment.

Suppose you have a 30 mH coil.  Can you name three ways to make it generate 172 volts?

I have the same message for you, the best way for you to appreciate what you are doing on your bench with your coil experiments and to do better experiments is to learn first about the fundamental basics about how coils work.  It's all up to you.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 26, 2017, 01:20:43 AM
Sorry but I am going to translate that for you Nelson:  You stated that there is something special about a pancake coil and you have done research on your bench related to this.  I asked you for some details about what is so special about a pancake coil and what interesting research you have done on your bench and you have nothing to say.  I watched your clip where you lit a light bulb submerged in a glass of water which is not really an interesting experiment.

Suppose you have a 30 mH coil.  Can you name three ways to make it generate 172 volts?

I have the same message for you, the best way for you to appreciate what you are doing on your bench with your coil experiments and to do better experiments is to learn first about the fundamental basics about how coils work.  It's all up to you.

MileHigh


MH,
I just send you that clip in context of we are talking about use square wave to tune the coil and i add : "There you have a jagged scope feed by a square wave"  but that simple bad quality video could show you too how bad is the transfer of power in a bifilar pancake coil .
But you like distort and manipulate the words , but nothing that majority of people that normally came to this forum  already don't know , is MH in their old fashion behavior  .

That coil is special  for sure  : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGyz31yaCdw
Now make you own interpretation if you could or if you want , and i know for sure that you will say exactly the same thing that you already state before :
 nothing interesting  .

Do not waste your time with me anymore, you're just wasting your time , is not easy understand you really .

Peace to you!  for sure your soul need that .


Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 26, 2017, 01:26:47 AM

MH,
I just send you that clip in context of we are talking about use square wave to tune the coil and i add : "There you have a jagged scope feed by a square wave"  but that simple bad quality video could show you too how bad is the transfer of power in a bifilar pancake coil .
But you like distort and manipulate the words , but nothing that majority of people that normally came to this forum  already don't know , is MH in their old fashion behavior  .

That coil is special  for sure  : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGyz31yaCdw
Now make you own interpretation if you could or if you want , and i know for sure that you will say exactly the same thing that you already state before :
 nothing interesting  .

Do not waste your time with me anymore, you're just wasting your time , is not easy understand you really .

Peace to you!  for sure your soul need that .


Nelson Rocha


PS - MH is you a man or a  "grown" kid ?  I can sense to that you are from Canada because you have fun just go make dislike just by fun .
Grow your inside man !
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 26, 2017, 01:51:07 AM

Very nice explanation ***** stars :)
Thanks!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 26, 2017, 03:04:28 AM

PS - MH is you a man or a  "grown" kid ?  I can sense to that you are from Canada because you have fun just go make dislike just by fun .
Grow your inside man !

You made some claims and when you were asked to back them up you had nothing to say.  I wasn't asking my questions for fun, I wanted to see what you had to say, which we now know is nothing.  Anybody can play with a coil and light some LEDs.  Who is acing like the child?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 26, 2017, 03:22:07 AM
That coil is special  for sure  : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGyz31yaCdw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGyz31yaCdw)
Now make you own interpretation if you could or if you want , and i know for sure that you will say exactly the same thing that you already state before :
 nothing interesting  .
Nelson Rocha

I suppose that you would agree with your commenter on your clip that said this: "we dont see any disturb in the magneticfield ( as both compass shows) as the current flows through the pancake coils, and thats really odd...and amazing too."  Hmm, that sort of sounds like you.

So, why do the compass needles not move when the current is flowing through the pancake coil?

Oh I know the answer, it's because pancake coils have very special and amazing properties and this is an example of the amazing pancake coil's special properties.  Pancake coils don't deflect compass needles and regular coils do deflect compass needles.  Wow!  I can't actually explain why this is happening but I have made an amazing observation that shows how truly amazing the pancake coil really is.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 26, 2017, 03:56:04 AM
I suppose that you would agree with your commenter on your clip that said this: "we dont see any disturb in the magneticfield ( as both compass shows) as the current flows through the pancake coils, and thats really odd...and amazing too."  Hmm, that sort of sounds like you.

So, why do the compass needles not move when the current is flowing through the pancake coil?

Oh I know the answer, it's because pancake coils have very special and amazing properties and this is an example of the amazing pancake coil's special properties.  Pancake coils don't deflect compass needles and regular coils do deflect compass needles.  Wow!  I can't actually explain why this is happening but I have made an amazing observation that shows how truly amazing the pancake coil really is.

You are a really sad person .. a sour guy ,  Treat yourself man

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 26, 2017, 04:24:33 AM
You are a really sad person .. a sour guy ,  Treat yourself man

Nelson Rocha

Stop with your psychobabble nonsense.  I will meet your psychobabble and we will call it a truce.  You and Evostars fit the psychological profile that we all know and have seen many times before.  You think you are doing something special and you are inspired.  However, solid correct information about electronics and your experiments coming from other people is upsetting to you because it goes against your whole belief system.  It upsets you when you are told things that are not what you believed for yourself and they are not what you want to hear.  It really upsets you when you are told things that you don't understand because you were convinced that you knew what you were doing.  So within a short time you reject the discussion and even start to refuse to listen to any new ideas.  You start to cling to your belief system and you want to shut down any conversation.  You stick your head in the sand.  You even get desperate and start to insult the people that you were having a debate with.

We all know how the story ends also.  After a few months of replicating all of the flashing LED experiments and the lighting of CFL experiments and replicating some amazing high voltage spark experiments done with coils, you start to lose enthusiasm and it gets less and less interesting.  You realize that after six months your progress is not going anywhere and you still don't really understand basic electronics.  So you give up and throw your coils into a cardboard box.  Five years later you realize that you still haven't touched the box and you throw it in the garbage.

Time to stick your head in the sand (don't read this):  And when you first connect the wires from your battery to your coil, at that instant of contact the coil acts like an open-circuit.  The coil has infinite resistance when you first make an electrical contact with it.  It's all very interesting, but you don't want to know that, you want to make neons light up in your hand!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 26, 2017, 04:29:33 AM
Stop with your psychobabble nonsense.  I will meet your psychobabble and we will call it a truce.  You and Evostars fit the psychological profile that we all know and have seen many times before.  You think you are doing something special and you are inspired.  However, solid correct information about electronics and your experiments coming from other people is upsetting to you because it goes against your whole belief system.  It upsets you when you are told things that are not what you believed for yourself and they are not what you want to hear.  It really upsets you when you are told things that you don't understand because you were convinced that you knew what you were doing.  So within a short time you reject the discussion and even start to refuse to listen to any new ideas.  You start to cling to your belief system and you want to shut down any conversation.  You stick your head in the sand.  You even get desperate and start to insult the people that you were having a debate with.

We all know how the story ends also.  After a few months of replicating all of the flashing LED experiments and the lighting of CFL experiments and replicating some amazing high voltage spark experiments done with coils, you start to lose enthusiasm and it gets less and less interesting.  You realize that after six months your progress is not going anywhere and you still don't really understand basic electronics.  So you give up and throw your coils into a cardboard box.  Five years later you realize that you still haven't touched the box and you throw it in the garbage.

Time to stick your head in the sand (don't read this):  And when you first connect the wires from your battery to your coil, at that instant of contact the coil acts like an open-circuit.  The coil has infinite resistance when you first make an electrical contact with it.  It's all very interesting, but you don't want to know that, you want to make neons light up in your hand!

The dogs bark and the caravan passes ...
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 26, 2017, 04:37:34 AM
The dogs bark and the caravan passes ...

Well that's and interesting proverb that I never heard before.  From Wikipedia it means, "History (or progress) moves ahead, no matter the criticism it may attract."

You should look up Dunning-Kruger effect.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 26, 2017, 05:01:03 AM
Well that's and interesting proverb that I never heard before.  From Wikipedia it means, "History (or progress) moves ahead, no matter the criticism it may attract."

You should look up Dunning-Kruger effect.

Are you try describe yourself  ? i know what is Dunning-Kruger effect and really apply to you . You make considerations with nonsense , that only make people don't like you .
You talk about flashing LED experiments, lighting of CFL experiments  where you see that ? Did you see that in my videos ?
Have i insult you ? Where i did that ?
Do you know in what i believe ?  I believe that you could not explain most of what you are criticize even reproduce yourself any of that points that we are talking even single one.
I know some people with caustic discourse  in this forum but at least justify their acts showing and justifying through elaborate circuits to correct other people.
But you are not able even to that even so long years of presence in this forum .
Myself did not refuse to hear you , only disagree about your considerations , but you can not accept that .
When you talk about all of us, do you refer to what people?
Are you speaking on behalf of a community? I saw no one here to support your sharing and your speech, but the exact opposite. I think you are alone like most of time a solitaire person that needs to draw the attention of people.
The topic was open by the evostars with the intention of talk about their experiments , and know what is happens ? A guy that normally Is ignored by his arrogance judge without any thing in their hands  make their own judge without any respect .
You should rebirth yourself to be a new person , because life is so short to you throw way in that way .
I'm really sorry by you . really
 
Nelson Rocha

 
 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 26, 2017, 05:12:40 AM
Go play with your coils.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 26, 2017, 05:14:22 AM
Go play with your coils.


I will follow you advice my friend ;)  Is nice you give a valid tip !
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 26, 2017, 05:22:27 AM
I don't think that (pancake) coil is special , i guarantee that is real special because i already test it, otherwise why should i use in my work?

Crickets chirping.  The sound of one hand clapping.

Have a nice day Nelson.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 26, 2017, 05:24:11 AM
Crickets chirping.  The sound of one hand clapping.

Have a nice day Nelson.

I appreciate that you calm down . is better to you and everybody .
Have a nice day too MH
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 26, 2017, 02:47:37 PM
This is FALSE.
How exactly your bifilar coil has been wound? Because what your picture shows (http://i.imgur.com/D2nsVLp.gif) apparently isn't the bifilar coil.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 26, 2017, 02:51:24 PM
Quote
That coil is special  for sure (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGyz31yaCd) ...Oh I know the answer, it's because pancake coils have very special and amazing properties and this is an example of the amazing pancake coil's special properties.

As I tried to explain here (http://overunity.com/8341/joule-thief-101/msg502256), the bifilar coils are really special - but not because their magnetic field of their windings compensates and zeroes itself at distance - because this is exactly what we can expect even in Maxwell's theory. It's due to fact, they compress and squeeze the vacuum fluctuations, not just reorient them - so that they radiate scalar A-field. This aspect they have in common with partnered bucking coils, the magnetic field of which also point toward each other. One aspect of this deform of vacuum is, it allows single-wire transfer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_transmission_line) in form of evanescent waves (which also have scalar component). Even more importantly, it allows the anapole field propagation, which is required for overunity and draining the energy from vacuum into account of variable speed of light and energy propagation. Because only the squeezing of vacuum fluctuations is what changes the permittivity and permeability of the vacuum.

Normally the vacuum fluctuations behave like the pieces of jelly: if we squeeze them, then they expand in another perpendicular direction (http://i.imgur.com/JF7qBFY.gif) - which is what initiates the simultaneous propagation of electrostatic and electromagnetic fields, as predicted by Maxwell theory. But this kind of deform is not what actually changes the properties of vacuum fluctuations, because the volume and concentration of vacuum fluctuations doesn't really change during it - they just change their orientation and shape.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: gyulasun on March 26, 2017, 03:22:53 PM
How exactly your bifilar coil has been wound? Because what your picture shows apparently isn't the bifilar coil.

Hi Zephir,

Would you arrange the three pictures vertically please? So the horizontal pixels would go below 1000 and we would need not scroll sideways back and force to read the posts. Your picture now has 1462 horizontal pixels, just place the picturs one under the other and upload again. You can use the 'Modify' icon at the upper right hand side of your post  to access your picture.

Thanks, Gyula
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 26, 2017, 03:39:58 PM
Unfortunately, I can't.  :'( I already have a smaller version of picture prepared, but I can't change the attachment, neither delete the above post. I can only delete the attachment from post.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 26, 2017, 04:13:23 PM
How exactly your bifilar coil has been wound? Because what your picture shows (http://i.imgur.com/D2nsVLp.gif) apparently isn't the bifilar coil.

Wrong again. The bifilar coil is wound with two strands and the top of one strand is connected to the bottom of the other strand, standard Tesla bifilar style. This discussion originally started with solenoidal coils so I have shown the comparison between two solenoidal coils, one with just a single strand, and the other with the Tesla bifilar connection with two strands. Both the standard single-strand solenoid and the Tesla bifilar winding contain the same total length of wire.

If you would like to dispute the findings, feel free to post your own constructions and meter tests. Don't simply quote myths from the internet!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: web000x on March 26, 2017, 04:17:28 PM

To me this says the bifilar coil, is dodging lenz law (which isnt a law, but a observation)



Do you have any experimental evidence to support this?  I am not challenging you in a malicious way, but rather I too am curious about this path...


Thanks,


Dave
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 26, 2017, 04:23:39 PM
As I tried to explain here (http://overunity.com/8341/joule-thief-101/msg502256), the bifilar coils are really special - but not because their magnetic field of their windings compensates and zeroes itself at distance - because this is exactly what we can expect even in Maxwell's theory. It's due to fact, they compress and squeeze the vacuum fluctuations, not just reorient them - so that they radiate scalar A-field. This aspect they have in common with partnered bucking coils, the magnetic field of which also point toward each other. One aspect of this deform of vacuum is, it allows single-wire transfer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_transmission_line) in form of evanescent waves (which also have scalar component). Even more importantly, it allows the anapole field propagation, which is required for overunity and draining the energy from vacuum into account of variable speed of light and energy propagation. Because only the squeezing of vacuum fluctuations is what changes the permittivity and permeability of the vacuum.

Normally the vacuum fluctuations behave like the pieces of jelly: if we squeeze them, then they expand in another perpendicular direction (http://i.imgur.com/JF7qBFY.gif) - which is what initiates the simultaneous propagation of electrostatic and electromagnetic fields, as predicted by Maxwell theory. But this kind of deform is not what actually changes the properties of vacuum fluctuations, because the volume and concentration of vacuum fluctuations doesn't really change during it - they just change their orientation and shape.

You are hilarious! Cargo Cult "science"! You cannot provide any experimental evidence for your claims and assertions about "vacuum fluctuations". Or, you can do what some other people have done and "explain" ordinary RF and HV effects using jargon and jive and misinterpretations.

The only thing special about Tesla Bifilar coils is that they have increased inter-turn capacitance when compared to ordinary single-strand coils of the same amount of wire, as Tesla himself noted in his patent. This had the advantage, in Tesla's day, of reducing the amount of costly and hard to build external capacitors required to attain resonance at any particular frequency, as he noted in his patent. Today we have much improved capacitor technology so this factor isn't very important any more.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 26, 2017, 04:27:35 PM
There exist four types of bifilar wound coils:1.Parallel- wound, series connected;2.Parallel-wound, parallel connected;3.Counter-wound, series connected;4.Counter-wound, parallel connected. For me the bifilar coil is this one  (http://i.imgur.com/GpKGTgJ.png): hairpin bifilar (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcFySCAxLzs). Such a coil would really have self-inductance suppressed (http://i.imgur.com/rRBvcov.gif).

Quote
The only thing special about Tesla Bifilar coils is that they have increased inter-turn capacitance
This is actually bad thing for scalar wave physics and from this reason Tesla did use conical and bi-conical coils.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 26, 2017, 05:31:10 PM

Do you have any experimental evidence to support this?  I am not challenging you in a malicious way, but rather I too am curious about this path...

Thanks,


Dave
So far,  no i haven't. its my interpretation of what tesla states in his patent 512340. this triggered my interest in the bifilar pancake coil. and after i saw the resonant frequency voltage rise,  i was hooked.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 26, 2017, 05:39:00 PM
There exist four types of bifilar wound coils:1.Parallel- wound, series connected;2.Parallel-wound, parallel connected;3.Counter-wound, series connected;4.Counter-wound, parallel connected. For me the bifilar coil is this one  (http://i.imgur.com/GpKGTgJ.png): hairpin bifilar (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcFySCAxLzs). Such a coil would really have self-inductance suppressed (http://i.imgur.com/rRBvcov.gif).
This is actually bad thing for scalar wave physics and from this reason Tesla did use conical and bi-conical coils.
indeed. long ago my physics teacher told me you can power a coil,  but without a magnetic field,  and no heat production. but where does the energy go? very interesting. The caduceus coil does have some iinteresting properties, when working with dielectricity. I use them in series between the resonant coil an the earth connection, to get more voltage rise.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 26, 2017, 05:48:27 PM
As I tried to explain here (http://overunity.com/8341/joule-thief-101/msg502256), the bifilar coils are really special - but not because their magnetic field of their windings compensates and zeroes itself at distance - because this is exactly what we can expect even in Maxwell's theory. It's due to fact, they compress and squeeze the vacuum fluctuations, not just reorient them - so that they radiate scalar A-field. This aspect they have in common with partnered bucking coils, the magnetic field of which also point toward each other. One aspect of this deform of vacuum is, it allows single-wire transfer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_transmission_line) in form of evanescent waves (which also have scalar component). Even more importantly, it allows the anapole field propagation, which is required for overunity and draining the energy from vacuum into account of variable speed of light and energy propagation. Because only the squeezing of vacuum fluctuations is what changes the permittivity and permeability of the vacuum.

Normally the vacuum fluctuations behave like the pieces of jelly: if we squeeze them, then they expand in another perpendicular direction (http://i.imgur.com/JF7qBFY.gif) - which is what initiates the simultaneous propagation of electrostatic and electromagnetic fields, as predicted by Maxwell theory. But this kind of deform is not what actually changes the properties of vacuum fluctuations, because the volume and concentration of vacuum fluctuations doesn't really change during it - they just change their orientation and shape.
I have to look up what you are talking about, it sure sounds interesting.
for me it it clear that compression / implosion of the ether is important, thats why i started using 3 bifilar pancake coils (tesla style). hooked the  top and bottom in series,  so the counter winding fields would compress in between them.  my 3rd coil in the middle was in the compression zone, to collect.
after a while i reversed the process. pulsing the middle coil,  and collecting from the top (north)  of the series coils.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 26, 2017, 06:25:54 PM
The experiments are indeed important - but you should have at least clue, what you should expect. The bifilar coils should by used like the collectors of energy - but not like the driving/inducer coils, where the classical coils must be used instead. This is because in bifilar coil the magnetic flux gets compressed BETWEEN wires of their windings, not OUTSIDE them - so it has no meaning to place another coil there.

Actually many overunity devices, like the Steven Mark's TPU or classical MEG of Thomas Bearden are constructed in similar way: they're composed of pair partnered/bucking coils running in opposite polarity and they collect the surplus of energy from central part, where mutual collision of their magnetic fields/i.e the compression of vacuum fluctuations occurs. Because the excessive energy is scalar, the bifilar coils or partnered coils are used for it. This is essentially a scalar wave transformer running on changes of size of ferromagnetic domains instead of their orientation, like normal transformers. Even the seemingly unrelated devices like the generator of Infinity SAV Team (https://www.reddit.com/r/Physics_AWT/comments/50ptcl/does_infinity_sav_team_generator_work_on_scalar) work in this way. This construction is apparently derived from much older Bedini's bucking field energizer (http://www.eternaltruth.net/Science/JOHN%20Bedini%20IDEAS%20AND%20MOTORS_files/BuckingFieldGen.jpg): its rotor moves neodymium magnets around ferromagnetic cores of bifilar coils in stator and the output energy is drained from stator coils.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 26, 2017, 07:00:27 PM
The experiments are important, but you should always have at least clue, what is going on. The bifilar coils should by used like the collectors of energy - but not like the inducer coils, where the classical coils must be used instead.

Actually many overunity devices, like the Steven Mark's TPU or classical MEG of Thomas Bearden are constructed in similar way: they're composed of pair partnered/bucking coils running in opposite polarity and they collect the surplus of energy from central part, where mutual collision of their magnetic fields/i.e the compression of vacuum fluctuations occurs. Because the excessive energy is scalar, the bifilar coils or partnered coils are used for it. This is essentially a scalar wave transformer running on changes of size of ferromagnetic domains instead of their orientation, like normal transformers. Even the seemingly unrelated devices like the generator of Infinity SAV Team (https://www.reddit.com/r/Physics_AWT/comments/50ptcl/does_infinity_sav_team_generator_work_on_scalar) work in this way. This construction is apparently derived from much older Bedini's bucking field energizer (http://www.eternaltruth.net/Science/JOHN%20Bedini%20IDEAS%20AND%20MOTORS_files/BuckingFieldGen.jpg): its rotor moves neodymium magnets around ferromagnetic cores of bifilar coils in stator and the output energy is drained from stator coils.
Very interesting, Related to this is this video:
https://youtu.be/WkVC7lqc--0
What you see is a ferro cell, it is a ferrofluid in a penetrating oil, with a ring of lights surrounding it. It perfectly show the magnetic vortexes.

This video shows the new vortex created, when magnets are held close together. The strongest vortex that appears is in repulsion. It clearly shows 3 poles. Three!   
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 26, 2017, 07:10:53 PM
Quote
It clearly shows 3 poles. Three!
The black spots at your video aren't poles strictly speaking - just areas, where the magnetic fields of two magnets compensate mutually. The scalar A-field is weak and it cannot be demonstrated in this way, as the places where two or more magnetic field compensate mutually wouldn't differ visually from places of plain absence of magnetic field in your device. But if you would look at the scalar field with microscope, you could see, that the particles are moving faster there (Brownian noise gets more intensive there).

How the scalar field can be proven and studied after then? The very scientific way is Juday-White warp field interferometer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White%E2%80%93Juday_warp-field_interferometer), which detects the minute changes in speed of light between bucking coils or magnets in repulsive arrangement. But these changes are very minute and from practical perspective even useless, as we are more interested about motion of charged particles, like the electrons in electrical circuits. The compressed vacuum exhibits time compression and these particles are therefore propagate faster and their thermal noise gets enhanced. And this is actually what can be already measured with semiconductor junction of small area (pin-diode), so that this noise cannot get averaged so easily. Actually we can see, that the diode is serving like the weak source of power between magnets, i.e. like the electrosmog harvester (https://www.reddit.com/r/Physics_AWT/comments/5a8yat/environmental_electrosmog_harvester_feeding_led).

Another method is dynamic and it utilizes the Barkhaussen noise (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLXVLDysroY). The increased scalar noise of vacuum decreases the activation energy for reorientation of magnetic domains, so that less Barkhaussen noise is actually detected, when the magnetization of ferromagnet is changing regularly.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 26, 2017, 08:16:20 PM
As I tried to explain here (http://overunity.com/8341/joule-thief-101/msg502256), the bifilar coils are really special - but not because their magnetic field of their windings compensates and zeroes itself at distance - because this is exactly what we can expect even in Maxwell's theory. It's due to fact, they compress and squeeze the vacuum fluctuations, not just reorient them - so that they radiate scalar A-field. This aspect they have in common with partnered bucking coils, the magnetic field of which also point toward each other. One aspect of this deform of vacuum is, it allows single-wire transfer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_transmission_line) in form of evanescent waves (which also have scalar component). Even more importantly, it allows the anapole field propagation, which is required for overunity and draining the energy from vacuum into account of variable speed of light and energy propagation. Because only the squeezing of vacuum fluctuations is what changes the permittivity and permeability of the vacuum.

Normally the vacuum fluctuations behave like the pieces of jelly: if we squeeze them, then they expand in another perpendicular direction (http://i.imgur.com/JF7qBFY.gif) - which is what initiates the simultaneous propagation of electrostatic and electromagnetic fields, as predicted by Maxwell theory. But this kind of deform is not what actually changes the properties of vacuum fluctuations, because the volume and concentration of vacuum fluctuations doesn't really change during it - they just change their orientation and shape.

Well, the compass needles don't move because they are in a high-frequency AC magnetic field.  So the "shaking" of the compass needles is so fast that the needles don't respond.  In fancy terms the compass needle is a low-pass mechanical filter that will not respond to the high-frequency AC torque induced on it by the high-frequency AC magnetic field.  The same principle will apply to any type of coil, it does not have to be a pancake coil.  There is nothing remarkable demonstrated in the clip.

As far as pancake coils go, we know that each loop of the coil will generate a doughnut-shaped toroidal magnetic field.  The larger the loop, the larger the dimensions of the toroidal magnetic field.  We also know that for any point in space around the coil, you can do simple vector addition (magnitude and direction) for the magnetic vector supplied by each of the toroidal magnetic fields which come from each of the wire loops.  Depending on what point in space you are considering, there will sometimes be a considerable amount of magnetic vector subtraction (magnetic field self-cancellation).  Points that are farther away from the pancake coil will see mostly magnetic vector addition.  Whenever you have magnetic vector subtraction, that represents a lowering of the inductance of the coil because the magnetic fields are cancelling each other out.

Here is a nice little clip showing the vector addition and vector subtraction of the magnetic field for the case of two parallel lengths of wire:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0FbuTBd26s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0FbuTBd26s)

Sorry to tell you this, but this simple explanation trumps your word salad of vacuum fluctuations, the scalar A field, and anapole field propagation.

Who would have thought, eh?  A pancake coil is ultimately just a coil, a length of wire that is in a certain shape that has the property of inductance.  I mean you could take a length of wire and bunch it all up in your hands so that it becomes a random compressed mangled mess of wire and it would still have a measurable inductance and still obey the fundamental magnetic field property of vector addition.  You could study this random bunched up mess of wire on your bench and measure its inductance.  Heck, you could even carefully wrap some wire around a plastic toroid that you get from a children's toy and create what's called a "Rodin coil."  This "Rodin coil" would simply exhibit the property of inductance no different from a random mangled bunch of wire.

Isn't science and rational thought wonderful?

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 26, 2017, 08:52:57 PM
Quote
Sorry to tell you this, but this simple explanation trumps your word salad of vacuum fluctuations, the scalar A field, and anapole field propagation.
LOL, this is like to oppose the aether existence with special relativity or the overunity with energy conservation law. Of course, that according to special relativity the aether is impossible or according to energy conservation law the overunity is impossible. We all know about it very well. But why are you visiting this forum (until you're not governmental or fossil fuel lobby agent, indeed)? Because you're believing, that the overunity is still somehow possible. And until it's possible, then the energy conservation law (and probably also many others, the derivation of which relies on energy balance) must get broken in this way or another.. There is no other way, how to achieve it.

One of such laws is the vector calculus (rules for addition and multiplication of vectors) under conditions, when the vacuum density (speed of energy propagation) changes locally in it from place to place. The operations with vectors are additive only in perfectly homogeneous space-time or at distances, at which its fluctuations compensate mutually. Once the vacuum is elastic (which must be, or the energy and light wouldn't propagate through it in waves), then it also must be compressible. And once it is compressible so that the speed of energy propagation changes from place to place or temporarily, then the laws for vector additions simply don't apply anymore. Or better to say, these laws still apply, but the additional scalar dimension for vector addition must be considered there.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 26, 2017, 09:02:54 PM
Quote
A pancake coil is ultimately just a coil, a length of wire that is in a certain shape that has the property of inductance.
A simple experiment disproves it - the Aharamov-Bohm experiment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aharonov%E2%80%93Bohm_effect). In this experiment the path of charged particles gets affected, even when the magnetic field cannot affect them. The actual path of particles can be traced with double slit and the magnetic field of coil can switch it even at the case, when this coil gets very long. Which is indeed strange, because for long solenoid all fields should get concentrated inside it in similar way, like the magnetic field of toroidal coil - just because of vector calculus. The explanation therefore is, the coil generates additional A-field, which the charged particles are also sensitive on - and this field gets generated even outside it where it affects the vector operations. When the magnetic field of two or more coils get compensated, this A-field component remains, so that the vector operations don't apply there anymore - despite the B-field component of magnetic field is already zero.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 26, 2017, 09:26:28 PM
Whoops!  Last time I looked, we aren't the size of quantum particles and we live on a scale of meters.  We don't exist at the sub-Angstrom level.  That messy random bunch of wire sitting on your bench is a perfectly valid inductor and the vector addition of the magnetic fields holds.

We are in Kansas, we are not microbes dancing on the head of a pin in a seamstress's drawer in Whoville.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 26, 2017, 09:31:43 PM
@Zephir:
I tried opposing fields, north north, but It takes a lot of power to do so, my pulse driver became hot.
Also, I'm inspired by nature, and so far nature doesnt show me opposing fields.
For me it's unnatural, so I dropped the subject (for now).

I rather aim for a resonant system, that once it is vibrating in its resonant frequency, it creates energy.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 26, 2017, 09:42:44 PM
Quote
We don't exist at the sub-Angstrom level
The Aharamov-Bohm experiment works for macroscopic slits - it can be observed with naked eye. We aren't required to be of size of molecules for still being able to utilize the energy of chemical reactions - well, and the overunity phenomena are similar. I of course respect, that you don't believe in overunity at all - but after then I don't understand, what you're looking for here. The haters of cats have no reason to visit the forums about cats and forum about overunity is similar case.

Quote
I rather aim for a resonant system, that once it is vibrating in its resonant frequency, it creates energy
But why the plain resonance should create it? The resonance is very classical effect which works even with mechanical waves and I don't see any logic for it. The opposing fields exist in every pair of magnets in repulsive arrangement - I don't see any reason why their evidence should be doubted or why they should make some pulse driver hot - it's stationary effect.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on March 26, 2017, 09:45:29 PM
Hi Zephir,

It appears you have been doing a lot of studying searching for Overunity.  I also started about 10 years ago looking into the area of OU after finding a website about the John Bedini SSG.  Since I have over 50 years experience in electronics I wanted to investigate his claims.  What I learned is the SSG is simply a very efficient circuit for moving a wheel with magnets on it. It might interest you to know the Bulova Accutron watch that was invented in the late 1950s and introduced on the market in 1960 uses the almost exact same circuit.  It just uses that circuit to vibrate a tuning fork instead of moving a wheel.

Like you, I also got caught up in all the pseudo science jargon of moving the aether and scalar waves etc.  Ten years later I now know most of that is just hype to sell books.  Those words are used to impress the uneducated and to lead them away from any real research.  I don't know of a single person that ever got the MEG to work.  I know someone that is a personal friend of Tom Beardon and he doesn't have a working MEG either.

Getting an education from YouTube videos is not the way to learn about real electronics.  You need to take the time to really learn how things work if you expect to be able to accomplish anything.  I compare that to a person that wants to go exploring new territory but doesn't want to take the time to learn how to use a map or even study to see what areas are already explored.  Over and over again I see someone posting here and on other OU type sites about some great "new" discovery they think they have made.  When in fact they have just discovered a well know function or operation of a device or circuit.

I wrote all that to post this.  What MileHigh is telling you about the pancake bifiler coil is correct.  I am not saying that because we are great friends or something.  In fact I don't agree with him in a couple of areas which we won't go into here. But his explanations for the way a coil works are correct.  I have found no evidence to believe there is anything else going on with the bifiler coil.

Just so you will understand where I am coming from I DO believe OU may be possible.  I have built many many circuits and machines over the last 10 years looking for OU.  I am not a naysayer about OU.  But I think we have to forget all the nonsense posted on YouTube and other places and stick to what the evidence shows while looking for new evidence that may show us more.  Throwing away the old evidence when there is no new evidence is not very smart.

Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 26, 2017, 09:55:06 PM
But why the plain resonance should create it?
Good question.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 26, 2017, 09:56:34 PM
Quote
I am not a naysayer about OU.  But I think we have to forget all the nonsense posted on OU and other places and stick to what the evidence shows while looking for new evidence that may show us more.  Throwing away the old evidence when there is no new evidence is not very smart.
New evidence emerges each day - it just emerges in private sector, which you cannot get more information from (Akula, Infinity SAV team, etc.) Don't expect, someone of these guys will kindly tell you, how his device is actually working. We must find it together here again from scratch. Of course, you can just wait for new evidence outside this forum - but don't expect, that someone will give you more information than for example Akula did. And I'm not throwing old evidence at all - instead of it, I'm just explaining you here (http://overunity.com/17186/the-bifilar-pancake-coil-at-its-resonant-frequency/105), what the old and new overunity devices have in common and how to explain/interpret their similarity in most straightforward way.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 26, 2017, 10:17:28 PM
this topic thread seems to have stirred alot.
a lot of posts in less then a week.

but a lot of it, is simply off topic. I dont like this.  :(

please make your own topics,  where you can discuss them.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 26, 2017, 10:34:32 PM
Is there any reason to prevent people from having different opinions?
Is there any extra motivation for this type of behavior here demonstrated by a certain element?

For this type of people who think and proclaim their wisdom as absolute there are forums where the word Overunity is not used and where they can demonstrate all their "recital" of information to those who agree with their perspectives.
This is a free opinion site, and I completely agree that there are different opinions, but imposing something as absolute and wanting to force people to eat the same "straw" they eat seems to me a bit altruistic.
Most have already understood the divergent opinions, and now? What do you want more?
What is the concern about our different point of view on a certain subject?
We have already fully understood your opinion. Nothing more to add ...
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Dog-One on March 26, 2017, 10:36:20 PM
You are doing great work evostars.  I'd really like to see you and Nelson
keep moving forward.  Best you can, try to ignore the noise.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 26, 2017, 10:41:11 PM
Quote from: citfta
John Bedini SSG is simply a very efficient circuit for moving a wheel with magnets on it. ... Bulova Accutron ..just uses that circuit to vibrate a tuning fork instead of moving a wheel
If you believe it's the same circuit, then you can never replicate anything from overunity circles, because your resolving power is too low. You're in position of tribesmen, who want to replicate plane (https://blog.xebialabs.com/2014/12/10/cargo-cult-devops/). Nearly the same applies to attempts for replication of overunity devices without any underlying theory - simply by looking at attempts of others. You can succeed only by pure accident after then.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 26, 2017, 10:54:52 PM
Is there any reason to prevent people from having different opinions?

Yes indeed, this is a discussion forum and different points of view can and should be heard.  It's the whole idea behind a discussion forum.

If you believe it's the same circuit, then you can never replicate anything from overunity circles, because your resolving power is too low. You're in position of tribesmen, who want to replicate plane (https://blog.xebialabs.com/2014/12/10/cargo-cult-devops/). Nearly the same applies to attempts for replication of overunity devices without any underlying theory - simply by looking at attempts of others. You can succeed only by pure accident after then.

I suppose the key question is who is building the plane and who is looking at the spectacle of those building the plane?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 26, 2017, 10:55:00 PM

Like you, I also got caught up in all the pseudo science jargon of moving the aether and scalar waves etc.  Ten years later I now know most of that is just hype to sell books.  Those words are used to impress the uneducated and to lead them away from any real research. 

Sorry Carrol but i really don't understand what you try say with pseudo science when you talk of ether . In the time that word  is "founded" There was not the same disinformation motivation that exists today or even to sell books, and is unquestionable and undeniable  the contribution by the father of the word aether Sir Oliver Lodge to science , and after used by Nikola Tesla too .
As I mentioned earlier, this forum is free and we all have different opinions, but the contribution of those same people I mentioned is undeniable even when Discredited and censored by some people like happens in out times and for sure will continue happen .
In that way i could say the time is the best judge.

Respectfully :

Nelson Rocha
 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 26, 2017, 11:00:13 PM
Yes indeed, this is a discussion forum and different points of view can and should be heard.  It's the whole idea behind a discussion forum.

I suppose the key question is who is building the plane and who is looking at the spectacle of those building the plane?

I will repeat myself :

We already hear your opinion ,  but you can not impose your ideas on others. We have already noticed your opinion and I am grateful for it. Do you have anything else to add?

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on March 26, 2017, 11:01:37 PM
If you believe it's the same circuit, then you can never replicate anything from overunity circles, because your resolving power is too low. You're in position of tribesmen, who want to replicate plane (https://blog.xebialabs.com/2014/12/10/cargo-cult-devops/). Nearly the same applies to attempts for replication of overunity devices without any underlying theory - simply by looking at attempts of others. You can succeed only by pure accident after then.

Sorry Zephir, but your comment make absolutely no sense.  Have you even looked at the circuit for the Bulova watch?  It uses a magnet to trigger a coil connected to the base of a transistor to turn on the drive coils which vibrate the tuning fork.  I understand it perfectly because I do have the theory to back it up.

Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 26, 2017, 11:03:23 PM
Quote
pseudo science jargon of moving the aether and scalar waves
You're at overunity forum and I can assure you, that overunity is even bigger pseudoscience for mainstream physicists, than the aether concept (which at least some mainstream physicists (I mean Nobelists) believe in (http://gsjournal.net/Science-Journals/Communications-Astrophysics/Download/3513)). But it just seems for me, this site is already driven by people, the agenda of which is to dilute every discussion, which could make the overunity more real for masses.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on March 26, 2017, 11:06:13 PM
Sorry Carrol but i really don't understand what you try say with pseudo science when you talk of ether . In the time that word  is "founded" There was not the same disinformation motivation that exists today or even to sell books, and is unquestionable and undeniable  the contribution by the father of the word aether Sir Oliver Lodge to science , and after used by Nikola Tesla too .
As I mentioned earlier, this forum is free and we all have different opinions, but the contribution of those same people I mentioned is undeniable even when Discredited and censored by some people like happens in out times and for sure will continue happen .
In that way i could say the time is the best judge.

Respectfully :

Nelson Rocha

Hi Nelson,

Yes I am aware of the proper use of the term "ether" but you have to admit the way it is misused today is not the way it was used by Tesla and others.

Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 26, 2017, 11:13:05 PM
Quote
Have you even looked at the circuit for the Bulova watch?
The mechanical arrangement of Accutron watches is completely different from Bedinni's Monopole Mechanical Oscillator - and I'm not even looking at their circuit. In Accutron watches the magnetic circuit gets never interrupted, both coils have magnetic field oriented in the same direction (no monopole is thus there) and so on. It has no meaning to discuss such a BS as it would completely diverge the discussion. You could replicate Bedini's motor another one hundred years without success with such an ignorant attitude.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 26, 2017, 11:18:24 PM
Hi Nelson,

Yes I am aware of the proper use of the term "ether" but you have to admit the way it is misused today is not the way it was used by Tesla and others.

Carroll

Carrol i agree with you when you say that is misused today by a lot of people , but you will agree for sure just because some could do that , we should say that words is all pseudo science. I read a lot where i can include some of books of Oliver lodge  , and i don't come just to throw up what I read , because need to be understood  in different temporal context  .
I will recommend you one of the best book that you should read if you do not know,  The Ether of Space . I like to in particular the Modern Scientific Ideas .

Respectfully

Nelson Rocha

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on March 26, 2017, 11:24:36 PM


Now you are clearly demonstrating your lack of electronics knowledge.  Here is the circuit of the Accutron watch.  I never said the mechanical working was the same.  I said the electronic circuit was almost identical because it uses a magnet to trigger coil F1 in the drawing which is exactly the same way the Bedini SSG is triggered.  When the transistor is turned on it pulses the drive coils just like the SSG pulses the main coil.  The drive coils cause the tiny tuning fork to vibrate.  In the SSG the drive coil kicks the magnet away.

Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 26, 2017, 11:42:38 PM
This is just your theory of their similarity. The Bedini circuit is essentially a JouleThief circuit (http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Ch5/Fig4.gif) and it can oscillate on its very own. The Accutron circuit wouldn't oscillate without mechanical resonator (tuning fork fixed).

Quote
In the SSG the drive coil kicks the magnet away.

In another words, the magnets and driving coil form bucking circuit with magnetic fields arranged in OPPOSITE way. You're probably confusing Bedini's generator with Andrew's motor or some similar - yet very classical with respect to overunity - stepping motor device.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 27, 2017, 12:13:09 AM
We already hear your opinion ,  but you can not impose your ideas on others. We have already noticed your opinion and I am grateful for it. Do you have anything else to add?

I am not trying to impose anything on you and if I have something to add I will add it.  I post for the readers of the forum, both for the members and for the anonymous masses that lurk and read the forum.  My service is to them and I can assure you that many of them understand what I am saying and they understand my qualification of you and Evostars and they know exactly what container that the two of you fit into.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 27, 2017, 12:26:59 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiLgM3EkQBE
With this bifilar pancake coil i can charge the 12 v battery without magnet rotor, can you describe this experiment...?
Hi skycollection, what will happen, if you replace your battery with capacitor? Such a capacitor should recharge much faster and you would also have proof of self-running circuit.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 27, 2017, 12:31:02 AM
New evidence emerges each day - it just emerges in private sector, which you cannot get more information from (Akula, Infinity SAV team, etc.) Don't expect, someone of these guys will kindly tell you, how his device is actually working. We must find it together here again from scratch. Of course, you can just wait for new evidence outside this forum - but don't expect, that someone will give you more information than for example Akula did. And I'm not throwing old evidence at all - instead of it, I'm just explaining you here (http://overunity.com/17186/the-bifilar-pancake-coil-at-its-resonant-frequency/105), what the old and new overunity devices have in common and how to explain/interpret their similarity in most straightforward way.

By making reference to Akula as a legitimate person when no one can replicate yet another circuit does not help your credibility with a certain percentage of the readers.  Even many free energy enthusiasts feel that Akula was yet another fake.

Quote
We must find it together here again from scratch.

Of course we have to figure it out from scratch!  They never tell us!  All of those millions of people that starve to death each year from malnutrition where their lives could be saved by access to a new and cheap form of energy.  Think of all of the millions of children that could be saved.  And yet, every single free energy inventor never tells us how it works.  They put their own personal financial gain ahead of the millions of lives that they could save every year by fully open-sourcing their technology.  It's crazy because in this day and age, if they gave away their free energy technology then they would almost instantly become rich as celebrities and by going on speaking tours.  You would think that at least one of them would see the right path in life and do the right thing and end up saving millions of lives each year.  What a fantastic achievement that would be.

But alas, Akula remains somewhere in the steppes of Russia looking for another investor.  We must keep on searching and building and replicating.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 27, 2017, 12:52:42 AM
Quote
And yet, every single free energy inventor never tells us how it works.  They put their own personal financial gain ahead of the millions of lives that they could save every year by fully open-sourcing their technology.  It's crazy because in this day and age, if they gave away their free energy technology then they would almost instantly become rich as celebrities and by going on speaking tours.

IMO you're idealizing problem way too much. We can turn your question upside down and to ask, why the people, who want to save billions of children from starvation so much don't contribute the overunity inventors for their research? Why the scientists, who are already payed with millions by tax payers don't invest into research of these findings? For example Nelson Rocha here seems to have some working device (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmlpV1MWm40&list=PL86OtVC_1KJHeRn0zvSfnNrtOOh02zOYD&index=40) - why not to close a collective deal just with him? He just told us (http://i.imgur.com/bGacoZo.gif), he cannot tell the secret, only because he got few thousands(?) Euro for non-disclosure agreement with company, which bought his secret. So how much he would want for breaking it and submitting his secret for the rest of civilization? The Kickstarter is full of way crazier projects (http://guff.com/20-of-the-most-ridiculous-kickstarter-projects).

Quote
Even many free energy enthusiasts feel that Akula was yet another fake.
This is just a feeling. I've many feelings every five minutes. Solid evidence is what is required in both ways: both for confirmation, both for dismissal.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 27, 2017, 01:22:57 AM
You are doing great work evostars.  I'd really like to see you and Nelson
keep moving forward.  Best you can, try to ignore the noise.
Thanks
good to now someone is listening  ::)
I will continue making my video's,  think for myself, listen to my heart, and do the work that needs to be done.
 I did expect the abc agency's to do their job. and look what happend, within  a week.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: NRamaswami on March 27, 2017, 01:32:04 AM
Every possible Cop>1 device must use  either the combination of capacitors and Magnets or it must use another method. I have tested the first but I had been told that a device must run on its own to be considered cop>1 even if the input is low and output is high. And no scientist worth his name would endanger his career and certify such a device.

Nelson has his needs to be met. Why should he get in to legal troubles and cheat the investor who funded him.  I have seen all talks of poor children dying out of lack of energy is only an information extraction tool. And if you disclose all you get laughed at that it is not possible even without the other person verifying it. So why should we make ourselves ridiculed. This is the main reason.

Regards

Ramaswami
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 27, 2017, 01:33:58 AM
Quote
Every possible Cop>1 device must use  either the combination of capacitors and Magnets or it must use another method.
Indeed, I just want one particular device (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmlpV1MWm40) - not anything else. We just need to get one documented case of self-running circuit from scientific reasons, no matter how small or dull it actually is - actually the simpler, the better.
Quote
Why should he get in to legal troubles and cheat the investor who funded him.
He will not cheat anyone - he will indeed step out of contract (am I saying it correctly?) and he will return money which he got. Which is basically just his private business, nobody of us will check it.
Quote
all you get laughed at that it is not possible even without the other person verifying it
This is all solvable - if Nelson would agree with this plan at least theoretically, we can establish a new dedicated thread and to reconsider all options and legal circumstances at public. He's the main person in this deal.

Of course whoever else inventor may also apply in it instead/in addition of him.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 27, 2017, 02:23:32 AM
For example Nelson Rocha here seems to have some working device (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmlpV1MWm40&list=PL86OtVC_1KJHeRn0zvSfnNrtOOh02zOYD&index=40) - why not to close a collective deal just with him? He just told us (http://i.imgur.com/bGacoZo.gif), he cannot tell the secret, only because he got few thousands(?) Euro for non-disclosure agreement with company, which bought his secret.

Thanks for further qualifying yourself.  Did you notice that Nelson was putting mechanical energy from Mr. Hand into a piezo-electric spark generator taken from a cigarette lighter?  Perhaps that energy filled a capacitor until the voltage got high enough to trigger a Joule Thief circuit?  Or perhaps Nelson got a dose of RomeroUK sickness.  I get the feeling there is some poor guy in Kuala Lumpur that paid a few thousand dollars for a shoe box containing a Joule Thief circuit and every few months he stares at it.  That is not going to save the millions of people that starve to death each year.

Quote
This is just a feeling. I've many feelings every five minutes. Solid evidence is what is required in both ways: both for confirmation, both for dismissal.

Exactly so why are you even referencing Akula when you have no evidence whatsoever that he is real?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 27, 2017, 02:27:05 AM
Quote
Perhaps that energy filled a capacitor until the voltage got high enough to trigger a Joule Thief circuit?
This is exactly what I think. Kapanadze and Akula also started their "fonarik" with impulse from battery. Not a big deal. What else behavior would you expect from selfrunning circuit?
Quote
why are you even referencing Akula when you have no evidence whatsoever that he is real?
Oh, come on - we all have pile of evidence already. What I'm still missing is the PROOF - in the same way, like you. And why Akula couldn't have working device, once Nelson Rocha has it too? This is just a precedent.
Quote
That is not going to save the millions of people that starve to death each year.
Of course not - this would be just a beginning. A powering of LED. If every of us would have working device in hand, we could start with its improvement - together or individually. The important is, we all will have proof - not just an evidence - and also starting point for further research. It's difficult to invent fire, if you never saw it burning.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 27, 2017, 02:41:47 AM
I did expect the abc agency's to do their job. and look what happend, within  a week.

Thanks for injecting a little bit of high comedy into the thread.  It's a Dunning-Kruger comedic moment.  Here you have some semi-spiritual Joe Blow that barely understands anything about electronics and clearly has no understanding whatsoever about how a coil actually works in the real world.  He is just one of thousands of beginning electronics tinkerers on YouTube.  It took a few postings and a few hours to fully qualify you.  And yet you believe that the government is now watching you because you made some LEDs light up with some pancake coils and a battery?  It's truly a Monty Python moment.

I actually came into this thread very diplomatically and tried to explain to you what you were doing and observing.  I said that you can choose to go your own way, or try pursuing two paths such that you would try to learn and understand the information that I and others were offering you.  But of course now that you have been qualified your response is no surprise.  I am not from the MIB, and what you are saying is really something about yourself and not about me or TK or anyone else that you think dresses in a black suit with dark sunglasses.  Somebody like myself or TK could work with you on the bench for a few days and after that experience you would be in shock.  You have no respect whatsoever for science and knowledge and experience and electronics.  It's all just unwitting comic theater in the round at this point and the lights are on you.

I can assure you that I seriously doubt that I will post in this thread any more to try to help you with sound advice and explanations and to share some knowledge.  I will be more than content to watch the comedy skit from the sidelines.

And a shout-out to Carroll for backing me up about the pancake coil.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on March 27, 2017, 03:06:53 AM
You are welcome MH.  I am done here also.  They apparently aren't at all interested in learning anything that might disturb their fantasies.  Some people just refuse to accept help.  I do wonder sometimes if the ones calling others the MIB or whatever are not really one of them themselves and are only here to lead others astray with their wild theories.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on March 27, 2017, 03:13:43 AM
Nelson, I will look for the "Ether of Space" and if I find it I will read it.  I am always open to learn more.  I just get frustrated with people that refuse to accept what are perfectly normal observations about something.  Thanks for the tip.

Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 27, 2017, 07:02:08 AM
I am not trying to impose anything on you and if I have something to add I will add it.  I post for the readers of the forum, both for the members and for the anonymous masses that lurk and read the forum.  My service is to them and I can assure you that many of them understand what I am saying and they understand my qualification of you and Evostars and they know exactly what container that the two of you fit into.


If you don't want  impose anything what you want add more ??
"my qualification of you and Evostars and they know exactly what container that the two of you fit into"

  Now you start be rude man, you don't know me to make that type of judges about the persons . Take care, because i'm not sell any idea or even make profit did you understand that ?

I'm not free to answer in a topic open by another member ?
 For sure i'm free , and i will not let you that you stop me give my opinion in any topic that i will like give opinion.

You like soap opera, and is the reason why you've already been banned most often in debate forums inclusive in this same forum you show clear about ,you own formation like a person . See if you control yourself.

I'll repeat it again because it seems like you did not understand:
Your opinion is free as that of others, and respected as that of others but do not pass the limit of good education.


"Thanks for further qualifying yourself.  Did you notice that Nelson was putting mechanical energy from Mr. Hand into a piezo-electric spark generator taken from a cigarette lighter?  Perhaps that energy filled a capacitor until the voltage got high enough to trigger a Joule Thief circuit?  Or perhaps Nelson got a dose of RomeroUK sickness.  I get the feeling there is some poor guy in Kuala Lumpur that paid a few thousand dollars for a shoe box containing a Joule Thief circuit and every few months he stares at it.  That is not going to save the millions of people that starve to death each year."



Amazing ! Go on!  open a new topic and just reproduce if you able to do that is you best answer to you assure a good job work to anonymous masses like you say .

" You have no respect whatsoever for science and knowledge and experience and electronics"

But you don't have respect by anyone like all time you post in this forum .

If you don't have nothing more to add about the topic XAU

Have a nice day


 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 27, 2017, 07:13:28 AM
You are welcome MH.  I am done here also.  They apparently aren't at all interested in learning anything that might disturb their fantasies.  Some people just refuse to accept help.  I do wonder sometimes if the ones calling others the MIB or whatever are not really one of them themselves and are only here to lead others astray with their wild theories.

Citfta ,
" I just get frustrated with people that refuse to accept what are perfectly normal observations about something"

You don't need go frustrate , you are deal with persons that actually are able to decide the path to go by himself  don't get frustrated about that . 
No one refuse help for anyone, we already ear all opinions by the people that did not agree , but the respect fit in every time in ever place , and that not happen for sure  .

"..learning anything that might disturb their fantasies"
 what fantasies are you refer ?  I really don't understand that sentence could you explain me please the meaning of that ?

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Dog-One on March 27, 2017, 07:40:27 AM
Quote from: evostars
Thanks
good to now someone is listening  ::)

Most certainly.

Quote from: evostars
I will continue making my video's,  think for myself, listen to my heart, and do the work that needs to be done.

If you hit a wall, I'll remind you of that statement.    ;)

Quote from: evostars
I did expect the abc agency's to do their job. and look what happend, within  a week.

I always say if you are catching flak, could be you are over the target.
Maybe that sort of response is out of desperation.  If I was so smart and knew this
stuff inside and out, I would sit on the sideline and say to myself, "What are these
knuckleheads doing?"  But that isn't what's happening is it.  Could be a clue.


I do have something to add.  It may be useful to your experimenting; it may not,
but I'll PM it to you and Nelson to avoid another furball here in this thread.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 27, 2017, 11:31:20 AM
@nelsonrochaa  Hello Mr. Rocha,

my question is, if You would be willing  to sell the circuit scheme and know-how of your "Avesome Resonator (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmlpV1MWm40)" to this community - in solely anticipatory and nonbinding way in this moment? The transfer of know-how would probably involve the construction of few working prototypes for escrow agent(s). We would discuss the legal conditions and similar stuffs in specialized thread dedicated to this subject. I cannot promise, that such transaction would be feasible for both parties - but at least we can attempt for it and to broke the information barrier existing here.

Thank You for Your kind reply in advance

Zephir

Edit: See also Sirius Disclosure anouncement for free energy technologies (http://www.siriusdisclosure.com/100000-star-challenge-and-award)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on March 27, 2017, 12:37:31 PM
a·nom·a·ly
/əˈnäməlē/
noun
noun: anomaly; plural noun: anomalies
1. something that deviates from what is standard, normal, or expected.

here we search for anomalies ,TRUE anomalies.

which would hopefully lead to a pair of scissors to cut the power cable from the global warming or Global melting fuel sources,[Which we are currently fighting over to survive.

I don't believe Nelson can take the scissors to his power cable ?, but it would be good to qualify what this "anomaly" is ?
besides making people sick ? it is very easy to make people sick with improperly used  power levels in unshielded environments

unless Nelson refers to this kind of sick  ----https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geiger_counter .??

what is the claim of this Circuit ?

an "anomaly" or a Misunderstanding ??

 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 27, 2017, 01:11:15 PM
Quote
I don't believe Nelson can take the scissors to his power cable ?, but it would be good to qualify what this "anomaly" is
Not just this - it should demonstrate his device inside some Faraday/mesh cage.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 27, 2017, 01:36:46 PM
There exist four types of bifilar wound coils:1.Parallel- wound, series connected;2.Parallel-wound, parallel connected;3.Counter-wound, series connected;4.Counter-wound, parallel connected. For me the bifilar coil is this one  (http://i.imgur.com/GpKGTgJ.png): hairpin bifilar (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcFySCAxLzs). Such a coil would really have self-inductance suppressed (http://i.imgur.com/rRBvcov.gif).
This is actually bad thing for scalar wave physics and from this reason Tesla did use conical and bi-conical coils.

I wonder if you actually watched that video of mine which you so kindly linked. In that video I show that the hairpin bifilar winding does indeed have "self inductance suppressed", and this is perfectly reasonable when you consider the shape of the magnetic field around a conductor. It is not mysterious at all to anyone who has a grounding in ordinary physics. However that is NOT the Tesla Bifilar winding that we (some of us anyway) have been discussing and that most people who say "bifilar" are talking about. And it is the reason that I always, or nearly always, specify TESLA bifilar windings when I talk about these coils. But I see that even that doesn't succeed in avoiding confusion amongst a certain group of people. I urge you to re-read Tesla's patent 512340. Note that in Tesla's patent, two wires are parallel-wound and connected in series, but with the innermost end of one winding connected to the outermost end of the other winding. This is exactly the way my solenoidal bifilar coil is wound in the meter test I posted earlier, the only difference being that my coil is solenoidal and Tesla's (and those of some of the other experimenters posting here) are flat pancake coils. One huge reason that Tesla was using flat or conical primary coils was to get the outermost windings, or uppermost windings in the case of the conical coils, out of "reach" of the high voltage secondaries so that spark-over between the primary and secondary could not happen. This kind of sparkover is dangerous to personnel and equipment, as the spark is conductive and causes the low-frequency, high current primary to be "shorted" into the EHV, high frequency secondary.  It has nothing to do with "scalar wave physics" at all.

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pages/US512340-0.png
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 27, 2017, 01:53:17 PM
@nelsonrochaa  Hello Mr. Rocha,

my question is, if You would be willing  to sell the circuit scheme and know-how of your "Avesome Resonator (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmlpV1MWm40)" to this community - in solely anticipatory and nonbinding way in this moment? The transfer of know-how would probably involve the construction of few working prototypes for escrow agent(s). We would discuss the legal conditions and similar stuffs in specialized thread dedicated to this subject. I cannot promise, that such transaction would be feasible for both parties - but at least we can attempt for it and to broke the information barrier existing here.

Thank You for Your kind reply in advance

Zephir

Edit: See also Sirius Disclosure anouncement for free energy technologies (http://www.siriusdisclosure.com/100000-star-challenge-and-award)

Here's my "guesstimation". The circuit appears to be a relatively ordinary "JT" type of blocking oscillator, with pre-charged capacitor(s) that are actually powering the LEDs. Perhaps he is using large-capacity supercaps. The piezo lighter element sends an impulse, through the Neon bulb, to the circuit to "jumpstart" it but it is not running on the relatively small energy imparted by that spark impulse. I think I can actually see the LEDs dimming over the course of the video. Where is the instrumental measurement of LED brightness? Nowhere. Trying to judge LED brightness in a video or even by eye in the lab is very deceptive , but a lightmeter, properly used, will tell the truth about LED brightness and will show the dimming over time as the capacitors discharge.

A big wirewound power resistor? That's a big Red Herring for analyzing this Cargo Cult electronic circuit.

Of course Nelson can always Prove Me Wrong (tm TKLabs) by publishing the actual circuit and allowing others to replicate it and discuss it on this OPEN SOURCE forum. I won't be holding my breath waiting for that to happen though. "Open Source"... what a laugh that is, when people fail to respect that philosophy entirely.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 27, 2017, 01:56:50 PM
Not just this - it should demonstrate his device inside some Faraday/mesh cage.

If Nelson wanted to fool you with fakery, by perhaps using a wireless power transmitter concealed nearby his demonstration area, or concealed power sources on the board itself (like hollowed out electrolytic caps with their innards replaced with button cell batteries, Akula-style) don't you think he could do that even if his device was inside a mesh cage? I certainly could.

I don't think he is faking anything. I just think he is misinterpreting, deliberately or otherwise, what his circuits are actually doing.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 27, 2017, 02:11:26 PM
@nelsonrochaa  Hello Mr. Rocha,

my question is, if You would be willing  to sell the circuit scheme and know-how of your "Avesome Resonator (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmlpV1MWm40)" to this community - in solely anticipatory and nonbinding way in this moment? The transfer of know-how would probably involve the construction of few working prototypes for escrow agent(s). We would discuss the legal conditions and similar stuffs in specialized thread dedicated to this subject. I cannot promise, that such transaction would be feasible for both parties - but at least we can attempt for it and to broke the information barrier existing here.

Thank You for Your kind reply in advance

Zephir

Edit: See also Sirius Disclosure anouncement for free energy technologies (http://www.siriusdisclosure.com/100000-star-challenge-and-award)

Zephir ,

I already answer in the topic "solid state devices / Re: FE Device by 'Armored Train" that circuit is only a more efficient way to discharge a capacitor , go to that topic and read please , i answer to TK  in the context of that topic .
That circuit even not nice was made in 2014 with the parts that i able to salvage from garbage.

Again i will tell you that i don't sell anything to anyone , or even promote something to win money by viewers .
In this moment money is not my high problem , because i have my own salary .

I already reject several offers of money  by some members from this forum and until i have contract with my actual Patronage, i will continue do that .  I respect agreements, and my integrity as a person is worth more than money.
I already explain in PM to you , that in some days i have a Demonstration to a possible investor in Hamburg , and in that way is easy understand why i'm not available at moment to share any of my work in detail .

Hope i have clear once and for all about that subject , and we should not even be discussing this topic in this topic, right?

Cheers

Nelson Rocha

 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: AlienGrey on March 27, 2017, 02:22:29 PM
If Nelson wanted to fool you with fakery, by perhaps using a wireless power transmitter concealed nearby his demonstration area, or concealed power sources on the board itself (like hollowed out electrolytic caps with their innards replaced with button cell batteries, Akula-style) don't you think he could do that even if his device was inside a mesh cage? I certainly could.

I don't think he is faking anything. I just think he is misinterpreting, deliberately or otherwise, what his circuits are actually doing.
Perhaps, so as a matter of interest where did Roma (Akula) hide his car battery then, it must have been in another dimension then? Aren't we constantly being bombarded with plasma streams and charged particles from the Sun ? there is also the deception from corporate 'quackery' trying to halt the 'free' independence thing ect. which result in pressure on those in the 'know how to' area to 'doctor saboteur' this know how information. ;)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 27, 2017, 02:38:16 PM
If Nelson wanted to fool you with fakery, by perhaps using a wireless power transmitter concealed nearby his demonstration area, or concealed power sources on the board itself (like hollowed out electrolytic caps with their innards replaced with button cell batteries, Akula-style) don't you think he could do that even if his device was inside a mesh cage? I certainly could.

I don't think he is faking anything. I just think he is misinterpreting, deliberately or otherwise, what his circuits are actually doing.

TK i don't fool anyone , i don' t need do that , and that circuit don't have batteries too .

About you say "people fail to respect that philosophy entirely." don't give me moral lessons just start read this topic from begin and you will see what is fail to respect ;  myself full assume that i don't work in opensource and what ?
Is imperative  to i give some opinion or share my work in detail ? Where are that rules write ?

My work is nothing,  did you not read the last posts by MH ?  who cares with my "fantasies"  or with i think or i do  ?
I just light led and neon bulbs in my hand :)  and at the end is only a shoe box containing a Joule Thief lol.

You for example even i don't like you normal caustic way of talking , but you are a person that show and test to refute others , not like most , that are only in this forum trying probe one point without respect other opinions but never show  nothing  practical to refute others work  . but works to anonymous masses...

About i prove that you are wrong why i should do that ? Did i need to probe something to you ? For sure not , you are in much more high standard technician level then me in that area why i should probe something to you ?

You don't need really , because , You would most certainly be the right person to reproduce my circuits.
But you're not a fortune teller, and even with your know how, it's no good if you do not know what's going on, you can only assume, nothing more.

cheers

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 27, 2017, 02:42:18 PM
Perhaps, so as a matter of interest where did Roma (Akula) hide his car battery then, it must have been in another dimension then?
I don't know what Akula demonstration you are referring to, but if you give me a link I can take a look at it. But if you believe in Akula's self-powered devices what is to prevent you from believing that he could hide batteries in another dimension?

Quote
Aren't we constantly being bombarded with plasma streams and charged particles from the Sun ?

Fortunately for us, our atmosphere and our magnetic field protect us from by far the majority of the charged particles from the Sun, as well as the plasma streams. Not much reaches down to us here on the surface. There is far more energy available at or near ground level from photons in the visible and near-visible spectrum than there is from the solar wind. Do you believe that Akula's devices are powered by charged particles from the Sun? Well, maybe he charges his batteries/capacitors with solar panels using solar photons. Here in the city where I live, we get about 15 percent of our electricity from a giant solar PV farm just south of the city limits. And my state is the largest producer of wind power (also solar driven) in the USA.
Quote
there is also the deception from corporate 'quackery' trying to halt the 'free' independence thing ect. which result in pressure on those in the 'know how to' area to 'doctor saboteur' this know how information. ;)

Isn't it amazing, then, that dangerous forums like this are even allowed to exist? What would happen to the "corporations" if someone on EF or OU, or some other forum based in even more repressive societies like Russia or Georgia or Azerbaijan actually accidentally did make some self-runner that produced excess energy in useful form? Why is Akula even still allowed to work?  I know why, and I think you do too.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 27, 2017, 02:50:56 PM
Quote
I just light led and neon bulbs in my hand (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/smiley.gif (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/smiley.gif))

So do I.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Cv4XF4FV6w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULDh8sTc8Kw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULDh8sTc8Kw)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeQ5WnziKBA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeQ5WnziKBA)


.. and I set the air on fire, too:
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 27, 2017, 02:54:14 PM
So do I.

http://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=3Cv4XF4FV6w
http://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=ULDh8sTc8Kw

.. and I set the air on fire, too:



Lol , maybe you will ear the same by MH just like he tell me  , You should maybe  not have shown that :)

Nice


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCrkICEUiQQ
cheers
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 27, 2017, 03:54:27 PM
Yes, very nice. I try to avoid punching holes in my bulbs though.  ;)

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 27, 2017, 04:49:18 PM
Quote
Perhaps, so as a matter of interest where did Roma (Akula) hide his car battery then, it must have been in another dimension then? Aren't we constantly being bombarded with plasma streams and charged particles from the Sun ? there is also the deception from corporate 'quackery' trying to halt the 'free' independence thing ect. which result in pressure on those in the 'know how to' area to 'doctor saboteur' this know how information
.
This is the same story: if you don't believe in overunity, what are waiting for here?
Quote from: Nelson Rocha
I already answer in the topic "solid state devices / Re: FE Device by 'Armored Train" that circuit is only a more efficient way to discharge a capacitor
After then I don't understand Your story about Japanese company, which you allegedly sold this circuit for few thousands Euro... ;-)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 27, 2017, 05:10:31 PM
I'm in an Internet kiosk because my 5th straight laptop froze up from a fatal Overunity virus. My last comment was 6 pages ago because the kiosk was closed on Sunday. I did the magnet strength test on both the single wire and serial coils and both lifted the same number of Hex nuts. This comes as no surprise due to the identical inductance.

However, as I pointed out, the serial bifilar generates a spontaneous gain while in self resonance when coupled to a ferrite core resulting in a magnetizing effect.

Secondly, and more importantly, I described the magnet wave induction grid where incresed voltage, transformed from a large storage battery, can instantly match the load. This beats running a coal fired generator at full tilt to feed amperage into the grid.

The longitudinal magnet wave is the transverse wave traveling sideways. Power can be moved faster and more efficiently by way of magnetic induction, then by sending sinusoidal electricy through a conductor end to end.

Eric Dollard is trying to isolate specific XM Sirius type frequencies to allow for billing consumers from a Wardenclyffe transmitter.
Skycollection's layered bifilars in self resonance can be buried underground and carry power by magnetisem instead of electricity. A much more efficient grid.     
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 27, 2017, 06:34:05 PM
.
...about Japanese company, which you allegedly sold this circuit for few thousands Euro... ;-)


Hi Zephir ,
Is not Japanese but South Korean  company , and i not allegedly sell , i sell in very real business € :)  .

What you don't understand ?  I tell you i'm PM that i sold it in 2014 and after that i start work to a German company where i work at present time in energy alternative field  , i know my English is not the best , but i think most able to understand .
If you want say something more , ask me in PM i don't need expose myself to others .

cheers

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 28, 2017, 12:18:11 AM
Dr. Myrl's video lecture series involves calculating the optimal spacing between serial bifilar pancake transmitter and reciever coils.

"The Old Scientist" ends his video series with two flag poles in the picture. Skycollection has his bifilar pancakes closer to each other then necessary.

A good place for them would be atop Elon Musk's "Hyper-Loop; Not only could they supply power to the levitaion tracks, but they could continue to transfer the leftover power over a long distance say from Las Vegas to Los Angeles, to help feed the grid in the megalópolis.   
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 28, 2017, 10:17:37 AM
It's a slow news day on the thread so I whipped up a graphic.  I am doing it because I am pretty sure that there are many pancake coil enthusiasts out there that may have not considered all of the magnetic field and magnetic flux self-cancellation that occurs in a pancake coil.

The graphic shows any two arbitrary current loops in a pancake coil.  The blue loop is the inner loop and the red loop is the outer loop.  The graphic represents what is taking place in the plane of the pancake coil.

As you can see, between any two arbitrary current loops in the pancake coil, there is a yellow area of flux cancellation.  The fine purple line represents were the net magnetic field is zero.

I suppose the moral of the story is that if you are doing some basic experiments with coils and trying to figure out how they work, you are probably better of just making a standard cylindrical coil first.  Do some tests on that coil to understand its transient characteristics, its DC characteristics, and its AC characteristics.  Learn how the coil discharges through a resistive load.  Measure the L/R time constant using your scope.  Derive the value of the inductance from the L/R time constant.  Then measure the frequency of an LC resonator using your scope.  Derive the value of the inductance from the resonator frequency.  Then compare your inductance measurement using the time constant, the resonance frequency, and with an LC meter if you have one.  Learn and understand how the coil produces high-voltage spikes because it acts like a current source when it discharges.  It's not "radiant energy," that is just nonsensical fantasy talk.  Experiment with your standard cylindrical coil and understand how it ticks.

Then, go make yourself a pancake coil and go through the same exercise with the pancake coil.  You are going to discover that the pancake coil works in exactly the same way as the cylindrical coil.  You should see that for about the same amount of wire, a cylindrical coil gives you more inductance.

Then after doing that, enter the fabled and mysterious realm of self-resonance for the coil.  This is where the coil is failing to function as a coil anymore.  In essence, it is the same thing as making a conventional LC resonator using a discrete inductor and capacitor.  So, you have a coil self-resonating at a very high frequency with its own self-capacitance.  It represents a tiny energy storage resonator that will discharge almost instantly.  Does it have any practical value at all?  Personally, I can't think of one myself.  I view a self-resonating coil as a coil that is no longer working and instead its having a kind of epileptic seizure.  The coil only functions properly as a coil below the self-resonance frequency.  At the self-resonance frequency it's kind of useless.

Again, before you even approach studying the self-resonance of a coil, you should do the tests I outlined above and fully understand them and have a complete mastery of how a coil works.  A coil is equivalent to a mechanical flywheel in just about any way you can think of.  If you fully understand how a coil works and presumably you already intuitively understand how a mechanical flywheel works, you should be able to go back and forth between the electrical model for inductance and the mechanical model for inductance with no difficulty at all.

What i say above is the real deal and it would be a worthwhile exercise for anybody that wants to understand how a coil actually works.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on March 28, 2017, 11:19:38 AM
Thanks for the clear explanation MH.  I have used your analogy of a coil and flywheel several times times since you first told me about it several years ago.  Most people understand that analogy better than the conventional explanation.  The only exception seems to be the ones that stubbornly stick to the idea that the current reverses when the coil discharges.  For some people there is no hope they will ever learn.

Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 28, 2017, 11:20:22 AM
Quote
I outlined above and fully understand them and have a complete mastery of how a coil work
It would be great, because we all really need to understand it. The plain saying that it corresponds mechanical flywheel doesn't explain it very much - what rotates there? Note that large bifilar coil is merely symmetrical with respect to current flow in it. How the direction of rotation is defined for it after then? Why the zones pictured are formed along pancake coil? And has it something with overunity?
Quote
that stubbornly stick to the idea that the current reverses when the coil discharges
Normal coil "discharges" when the current is reversed (in similar way, like the capacitor - just the voltage/current phase is different). So, why the pancake coil should be an exception and when it gets discharged after then?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on March 28, 2017, 11:46:59 AM
Hi Zephir,

If you really want to know what happens when a coil discharges here is a whole thread devoted to investigating that action.  There are some scope shots clearly showing what happens.

http://overunity.com/16203/inductive-kickback/

Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 28, 2017, 01:08:17 PM
When the normal coil discharges, then the current travels in opposite way than during charging. I don't need to read whole thread about it, because it's commonly known situation. From this reason I'm just interested, why are you implying, that the pancake bifilar coil behaves differently.  Why the people shouldn't stick to the idea that the current reverses when the coil discharges?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 28, 2017, 01:41:37 PM
Insert facepalm character here.    :-\
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: web000x on March 28, 2017, 01:43:08 PM
Insert facepalm character here.    :-\


I too was once dyslexic about that which reversed in a discharging coil.......
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on March 28, 2017, 01:55:17 PM
I never said the pancake coil was different.  If you would read the thread you would understand that the current DOES NOT reverse when a coil discharges.  That is true for any coil whether pancake, bilifer or any other configuration.  The idea of the current reversing apparently comes from people that get their education from YouTube.  I know of no one that has actually worked in electronics that believes the current reverses when a coil discharges.  The analogy of a flywheel holds true because the very definition of an inducter is that it resists any change in current flow just like a flywheel resists any change in rpm.  I am not going to rehash that whole thread in this post.  Read it and learn or ignore  it.  The choice of course is yours.  I was just offering you a source of experiments and observations to help you.

Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 28, 2017, 04:08:43 PM
Quote
the current DOES NOT reverse when a coil discharges.  That is true for any coil whether pancake, biflifar or any other configuration
OK - but at least the voltage of the opposite sign appears at the coil, once its magnetic field collapses. When the circuit is still closed, then the current of reversed polarity emerges in circuit. After all, it's visible easily in every circuit simulator, which traces current in circuit visually. Magnetic field is oriented - so that the charged coil remembers the direction of the original current, which created the flux.

You're pointing to situation, when the state of circuit also changes during collapse of circuit, for example during disconnecting the already energized coil from circuit - but this is special case. In steady state conditions of coil permanently connected into a circuit without active elements (diode, etc.) and similar exceptions the current following the collapse of magnetic field around coil will always have the opposite polarity, than the current, which created this field.

In hydrodynamic analogy the inductance of coil corresponds the behavior of hose with elastic walls. The introduction of current (i.e. hydrodynamic flow) leads to formation of  pressure drop due to inertia of fluid inside the hose. This pressure difference expands the hose a bit, so it accumulates the energy into itself. Once the pressure gets released at one end, then the accumulated fluid becomes ejected from hose in opposite direction. This model looks stupid, but it can illustrate even complex phenomena, like the skin-effect, which occurs in conductors during fast changes of flow direction. Because of inertia of fluid in the bulk of hose, the hose is forced to expand and collapse repeatedly so that the flow concentrates at the thin surface layer of hose only - and the interior of hose doesn't move.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on March 28, 2017, 04:24:24 PM
https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-current-direction-change-when-an-inductor-discharges
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 28, 2017, 04:41:54 PM
Quote
I know of no one that has actually worked in electronics that believes the current reverses when a coil discharges.
Actually you're the very first person, who I know he believes in opposite... :-) For example the very existence of oscillations within resonance circuits illustrates, that the current reverses during collapse of magnetic field within coil (the capacitor and coils charge and discharge mutually during it). How did you got into the opposite?

Edit: From Quora link (https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-current-direction-change-when-an-inductor-discharges) above given it seems, it's because of semantic fuzziness in application of the back electromotive force.  This force always acts in the opposite direction to the existing current, as its name ("BACK") implies. I.e. it decreases the existing current while the existing current still runs in the original direction. Once the original current doesn't change, then the inductor doesn't actually discharge, because it's magnetic field didn't collapse yet. Now it just depends, which current do you actually have on mind, when you talk  about collapsing field within coil: the original one - or this new one, induced with change of collapsing magnetic field.

At any case, once you believe, that the behavior of pancake bifilar coil doesn't actually differ from normal inductor, then the discussion of this semantic isn't interesting for me. What is interesting for me is the explanation of the role of bifilar coils in overunity circuits. And such an explanation must differ from description of normal solenoid coil, which is  behaving in classical way with respect to energy conservation law. Normal coil conserves the energy of magnetic field induced in it and it returns it back - but it never returns more than input. Once the bifilar coil returns more, it just means we missed some important piece in description of its electromagnetic field.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 28, 2017, 05:24:19 PM
There ARE NO "overunity circuits" !!! Using pancake, Tesla bifilar, solenoidal, multilayer or any other kind of coils, stimulated in any way at all. NONE.

And the behaviour of LC circuits, where energy is exchanged between the magnetic field in the inductor and the electric field in the capacitor, is an entirely different kettle of fish than the simple issue of which direction current flows during the inductor _discharge_.

It is easy to prove that the current does not reverse during inductor discharge, as many people have tried to tell you.

May I suggest that you set up your own experiment, perform it and report the details and results here.

I can explain why the misconception of current reversal likely happens but it would require me to lift a finger or two to draw some diagrams, and frankly, I already know that none of the "believers" will be convinced by anything other than performing their OWN well-thought-out and properly conducted experiments, and maybe not even then.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 28, 2017, 05:41:39 PM
Quote
There ARE NO "overunity circuits" !!! Using pancake, Tesla bifilar, solenoidal, multilayer or any other kind of coils, stimulated in any way at all. NONE.

Except that the YouTube and many forums are full of them. We can for example ask Nelson Rocha what he thinks about it - he already got nice money for it and he isn't still prosecuted as a cheater. So that one can be sure, that people who did pay him (and another ones, who are still paying him for similar project) aren't idiots. IMO you're just getting jealous about it and you're upset, that you weren't successful with it yet. You're not the first guy, who is behaving in the same way here. The people with highest number of posts are just these ones most frustrated with their effort.

Another question is, what the people who don't believe that overunity exist are looking for at just overunity forum? There are so many other forums, much better suited for their orientation - why they're visiting just this one? Why just the people with highest number of posts are most opposing the overunity here? Why they're wasting their time like this? Such a people are suspicious for me automatically, because they don't apparently do what they claim they believe in. Once the people don't do what they believe, then the money or struggle for power are usually involved. Are they agents of fossil fuel lobby, mainstream science trolls or what? At any case, such a people are diluting/polluting all overunity discussions being OT automatically. If you don't like cats, you shouldn't post in forums about cats, because this forum is designed for people favoring and interested about cats. Of course, it's possible you're liking dogs more and this is normal - why not. But after then you should visit forum about dogs - or you're not normal anymore.

Every strange behavior has its hidden reason. At any case, I tend to ignore the opinion of people, who don't act according to their own words and proclamations. Or better to say, I tend to believe in exactly the opposite of what they're telling me.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: partzman on March 28, 2017, 07:16:18 PM
There ARE NO "overunity circuits" !!! Using pancake, Tesla bifilar, solenoidal, multilayer or any other kind of coils, stimulated in any way at all. NONE.

[snip]


Errr TK,  I have to respectively disagree with you based on my own research and development in magneto electric induction using so called pancake coils.  Attached is a scope pix of a device consisting of vertical pcb coils in a circuit that was actually posted on the "Partnered Output Coil" thread on this forum.  I have not disclosed all the circuit details but essentially great care was taken in both circuit elements and the measurement techniques due to the frequencies involved.

Basically, CH1(yel) is the input pulse from an Ixys high speed fet driver, CH2(blu) is the voltage measured across a 1 ohm 1% Caddock non-inductive film resistor that monitors the current drawn from the driver pulse, CH3(pnk) is the voltage across a 50 ohm 1% Caddock non-inductive film resistor used as the output load, and the Math channel(red) is the product of CH1 x CH2 resulting in the mean input power.

As can be seen, the input power drawn from the input pulse is 88.52mw ( the 88.52mVV seen is the result of the product of two voltages but the voltage across the 1 ohm sense resistor represents the actual current so the real product is mw).  The output power is (2.72^2)/50 = 148mw rms for a COP = 1.67.  There are many variations of this circuitry all utilizing pancake coils with some actually able to reach higher COPs.

Regards,
pm

Edit: Otherwise, I agree with what you are saying!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 28, 2017, 08:12:53 PM
Partzman:

I find it hard to believe that you are not questioning your data.  The period of the pulse train is about 260 nanoseconds.  You are sampling at 2.5 GHz.  One nanosecond corresponds to one gigahertz.  So you have about 650 samples per period of the pulse train.  That sounds half-decent but look at the high-frequency ringing in your waveforms.  They are barely being sampled enough to give me confidence that you are not accumulating errors.  Plus all of your conversion on these scopes is a rough 8-bits, right?  There is another source of error.

Now, are the sampling errors and very possible subsampling errors and the quantization errors all supposed to average out and cancel each other out?  I think that might be the case but only if your trigger event time is random.  But if you are triggering on the falling edge of the square wave I am not sure if that is the case.  For example, the trigger might be synchronous enough with the waveform such that you get consistent subsampling errors on the very high frequency ringing that is in one direction only.

Now, I am no metrology expert by any means.  But let me just throw this idea out at you.  It's probably not the best way to do it with the current state of the art, but I think that at least the principles I will state are sound.

For all I know the input power or the power supplied to the device under test could be accurately measured with a Clarke Hess power meter but I don't know anything about them so I will go the analog route.  Presumably you can make a very accurate measurement of the capacitance of a large capacitor bank.  I have seen Luc's amazing volt meter with five digits of precision after the decimal point.  So suppose that you will run an experiment for 10 minutes where the energy provided to the device under test comes from a large capacitor bank that discharges from say six volts to say five volts, all measured with five digits of precision after the decimal point.   So we will presume that you have a quite accurate measurement of the energy supplied to the device under test.

I am going to assume that you can measure the ON resistance of the Ixys high speed fet driver circuit and make an accurate measurement of how much energy is burnt off in the switching circuit over the 10-minute test.  I am going to assume that the net energy delivered to the device under test is the supplied capacitor bank energy minus the switching circuit energy.

So for the output energy you have a special closed test tube with embedded electrical contacts so you can make a nice clean connection to the 50 ohm 1% Caddock non-inductive film resistor which is sitting in a precise amount of mineral oil.  You know the thermal capacity of the test tube to very high accuracy.  You know the thermal capacity of the mineral oil to very high accuracy.  Naturally the test tube is sitting in some kind of professional-grade insulated box.

So you run the test for the ten minutes, then take out the test tube and lightly agitate it for five seconds, the wait another five seconds, and then take an accurate temperature reading of the test tube.  Then crunch the numbers from the temperature difference, and the thermal capacity of the test tube, the oil, and the resistor, and determine the thermal energy.

Do ten runs like that with all of the required error bars and see what you get.  If you saw over unity like that, then at least two other competent individuals with the proper equipment would have to replicate your results.  Then there might be something interesting going on.

Just my two cents worth.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 28, 2017, 08:27:34 PM
It has no meaning to speculate about overunity from oscilloscope data. The self-looped demo is the only thing which counts there.

Edit: Otherwise, I agree with what you are saying! ;)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 28, 2017, 09:39:22 PM
Thanks for the clear explanation MH.  I have used your analogy of a coil and flywheel several times times since you first told me about it several years ago.  Most people understand that analogy better than the conventional explanation.  The only exception seems to be the ones that stubbornly stick to the idea that the current reverses when the coil discharges.  For some people there is no hope they will ever learn.

Carroll

@Citfa,

I have a quote from you on my "flyback current reversal" thread over at Energetic Fórum as Allen Burgess, where you impudently state that current runs in one direction and one direction only in the Ruhmkopf coil secondary. Do you still cling to that outrageous and pig-headed claim?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 28, 2017, 10:17:45 PM
@Partzman:
I know you have a lot of experience in these matters, so I am also, along with MH, surprised that you are not questioning your scope's "numbers in boxes". What happens if you apply some low-pass filtering to the signals before you do the math? Does your "overunity" result reside solely in the spikes and ringing? If so, does that tell you anything significant?

I have scope traces (on high-end Tek and LeCroy oscilloscopes to boot) from absolutely positively known-to-be underunity circuitry that also "show" overunity results; specifically, a _decreasing_ energy integral over time. I can haz cheezburger now?

It's really too bad that we can't run anything on pretty coloured wiggly lines. However, if you can do the elementary calorimetry experiment that MH has outlined, and obtain a string of positive results, it would carry a lot more weight than your scopeshot.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 28, 2017, 10:19:54 PM
@Citfa,

I have a quote from you on my "flyback current reversal" thread over at Energetic Fórum as Allen Burgess, where you impudently state that current runs in one direction and one direction only in the Ruhmkopf coil secondary. Do you still cling to that outrageous and pig-headed claim?

So... you are EF's Allen Burgess? That explains a lot, for sure. You get yet another ROFL, and nobody will ever look at your posts here in quite the same light again.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: partzman on March 28, 2017, 11:24:37 PM
@ MH, TK, Zephir,

Yeah, you guys are right!  Only a fool would rely on stupid scope measurements and I wanna know, how do these guys at Tektronix sleep at night?

pm
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 28, 2017, 11:34:17 PM
@ MH, TK, Zephir,

Yeah, you guys are right!  Only a fool would rely on stupid scope measurements and I wanna know, how do these guys at Tektronix sleep at night?

pm

Lol :)  Nowadays we are arrested for having and not having.
If you do not show them any shot scope, they would ask for those same shot scope ...

Then they will say that it needs to be validated by people competent for this work ... I can only think of someone with enough knowledge to do this validation, MH or TK Team marvel. or should i call cheezburger team ?

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 29, 2017, 01:29:49 AM
@ MH, TK, Zephir,

Yeah, you guys are right!  Only a fool would rely on stupid scope measurements and I wanna know, how do these guys at Tektronix sleep at night?

pm

I am surprised at the sarcasm in your reply.  For starters, an inductor does not give you OU so why should a pancake coil give you OU?  Your apparent results are easily verifiable with calorimetry considering you are quoting a COP of 1.67.

I reached way back into my memory from my numerical analysis course and the way to compensate for sampling and quantization errors is to use true random sampling of a waveform.  There is a general area of study with many useful applications called "Monte Carlo methods."

Here is a link about using Monte Carlo methods for calculating an integral with discrete samples:

https://www.scratchapixel.com/lessons/mathematics-physics-for-computer-graphics/monte-carlo-methods-in-practice/monte-carlo-integration

Quote:

As you may remember, the integral of a function f(x) can be interpreted as calculating the area below the function's curve. This idea is illustrated in figure 1. Now imagine that we just pick up a random value, say x in the range [a,b], evaluate the function f(x) at x and multiply the result by (b-a). Figure 2 shows what the result looks like: it's another rectangle (where f(x) is the height of that rectangle and (b-a) its width), which in a way you can also look at a very crude approximation of the area under the curve. Of couse we maybe get it more or less right. If we evaluate the function at x1 (figure 3) we quite drastically underestimate this area. If we evaluate the function at x2, we over estimate the area. But as we keep evaluating the function at different random points between a and b, adding up the area of the rectangles and averaging the sum, the resulting number gets closer and closer to the actual result of the integral. It's not surprising in a way as the rectangles which are too large compensate for the rectangles which are too small. And in fact, we will soon give the proof that summing them up and averaging their areas actually converges to the integral "area" as the number of samples used in the calculation increases. This idea is illustrated in the following figure. The function was evaluated in four different locations. The result of the function as these four values of x randomly chosen, are then multiplied by (b-a), summed up and averaged (we divide the sum by 4). The result can be considered as an approximation of the actual integral.

I seriously doubt your DSO is using Monte Carlo methods and since you are in pretty grainy territory the confidence that your measurement is OU is very low.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 29, 2017, 02:25:01 AM
The oscilloscope is great until you're tinkering and if you need to find a working point of transistor or resonance frequency of circuit - but once you claim overunity, then the self-looped (self-running) circuit cannot beat any preliminary test. The power measurements are notoriously unreliable due to (displacement) power factor poorly defined at high frequencies, crosstalks of signal into scope probe and so on..

Quote
an inductor does not give you OU so why should a pancake coil give you OU

Because the pancake coil has the evanescent scalar wave phenomena enhanced - whereas the normal inductors have them suppressed. The tunneling of EM (http://www.nature.com/news/2000/000530/full/news000601-5.html) wave through evanescent field (http://cds.cern.ch/record/547324/files/0204043.pdf) runs with superluminal speed (https://arxiv.org/abs/0708.0681), whereas EM wave in classical circuits always propagates with speed of light or lower. The overunity is extradimensional, normal causality violating effect in essence and the normal spreading of EM waves along conductors cannot achieve it.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 29, 2017, 02:42:16 AM
Lol :)  Nowadays we are arrested for having and not having.
If you do not show them any shot scope, they would ask for those same shot scope ...

Then they will say that it needs to be validated by people competent for this work ... I can only think of someone with enough knowledge to do this validation, MH or TK Team marvel. or should i call cheezburger team ?

Nelson Rocha

Well, thanks for the sarcastic comment stating that I must possess enough knowledge.

Do you remember saying this?

like you told   "Sorry, but I personally have very low confidence in TheOldScientist" i feel exactly the same in relation to you .

Did you read the thread about understanding coil discharges that Carroll linked to?

http://overunity.com/16203/inductive-kickback/ (http://overunity.com/16203/inductive-kickback/)

Did you see how hard I worked to help other people in that thread?  Did you see how I offered multiple explanations to help people understand?  I must be such a terrible person, eh Nelson?  On a side note, I looked through that thread again and when I read it I recalled good old Luc calling me a "troll" a few months ago.   He deserves a swift kick in the ass for saying that.

And in this thread I have read many really nasty and ugly ad hominem attacks from you against me.  In case you don't know what that means, let me remind you:

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

And I have read lots of straw man arguments from you about me.  In case you don't know what that means, let me remind you:

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".

The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and the subsequent refutation of that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the opponent's proposition.


I have asked you to back up your technical claims with logical arguments and you have never done it once.  I am operating on the assumption that you are a beginner and you simply were unable to back up your technical claims.  You simply said those things because they are "buzz phrases" that beginning amateur experimenters use all the time.

So, going forward, I welcome any contribution to this thread by you.  But I don't want any more ad hominem attacks on me, nor do I want any straw man arguments being made about me, nor do I want any fake technical claims being made by you that you can't back up with logical arguments.  Does that sound reasonable?

If the subject matter is above your technical level, then try to learn, keep your hands in your pockets, relax, and watch the blinking lights.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 29, 2017, 02:47:21 AM
Because the pancake coil has the evanescent scalar wave phenomena enhanced - whereas the normal inductors have them suppressed. The tunneling of EM (http://www.nature.com/news/2000/000530/full/news000601-5.html) wave through evanescent field (http://cds.cern.ch/record/547324/files/0204043.pdf) runs with superluminal speed (https://arxiv.org/abs/0708.0681), whereas EM wave in classical circuits always propagates with speed of light or lower. The overunity is extradimensional effect in essence and the spreading of EM waves along conductors cannot achieve it.

Before you get into your esoterica I suggest that you read the thread that Carroll linked to and try to understand how a coil discharges.  The dawning of the Age of Aquarius is going to have to wait.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on March 29, 2017, 03:18:13 AM
MileHigh,

I love that sign!  We used to have one just like it on one of the beam welders I used to work on.  You gave me a nice laugh posting that.  I saved it so I can put it up in my shop.

Thanks,
Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 29, 2017, 03:25:08 AM
Carroll:

Freie Energie bald oder sterben!   ;D
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 29, 2017, 04:38:44 AM
@ MH, TK, Zephir,

Yeah, you guys are right!  Only a fool would rely on stupid scope measurements and I wanna know, how do these guys at Tektronix sleep at night?

pm

I must say, dear Partzman, that I am both surprised and unsurprised by your attitude.

Clearly, "those guys at Tektronix" (the scientists, I mean, not the mere engineers) would be scrambling all over themselves to confirm, by other methods, a measurement that indicated some anomaly like more _energy_ out than in. I believe they even sell advanced power measurement software packages for their high-end scopes, and I'm quite sure they have access to stand-alone broadband power analyzers, and might even resort to calorimetry as MH outlined -- since a Nobel Prize is at stake. However when someone makes valid suggestions to you to try to attain Concurrent Validity (a technical term, look it up) for your claims of OU based on a scopetrace, you resist it and respond with this kind of sarcasm. I'm surprised at that because I know something of your background and I would have expected more of a truly scientific attitude from you.

On the other hand I am not surprised, because it is very common in this field of research (sic) for a person to latch onto some bit of data, however sketchy, that appears to _confirm_ his dearly-held hypotheses, to the exclusion of all criticism, and to avoid performing any kind of experiment that even has the potential for falsifying them. This tendency even has a name and is rather well-studied by experimental and social psychologists: Confirmation Bias.

A real scientist, aware of the danger of Confirmation Bias and the need for Concurrent Validity, would be doing everything in his power to _disprove_ his own hypotheses by performing appropriate control experiments, and in addition would be seeking as much concurrent validity as possible by performing alternate tests and measurements, like calorimetry and using broadband power analyzers and even, heaven and the PTB forbid, attempting self-looping.

Certainly a _real_ COP of 1.6 should be sufficient to overcome inevitable losses in the "non-OU" parts of an electronic or electromechanical circuit to enable self-looping or daisy-chaining with power left over to run an external load of some kind. My own hypothetical threshold for this is a COP of a mere 1.3. But since nobody has seen fit to provide _me_ with a demonstration apparatus that truly produces any excess _energy_ over and above that required to run it, I have no experimental proof that a self looper can be attained at a COP of 1.3.

You are right about one thing, though: Only a fool would rely _solely_ on "stupid scope measurements" for a claim like this.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 29, 2017, 08:03:39 AM
Well, thanks for the sarcastic comment stating that I must possess enough knowledge.

Do you remember saying this?

Did you read the thread about understanding coil discharges that Carroll linked to?

http://overunity.com/16203/inductive-kickback/ (http://overunity.com/16203/inductive-kickback/)

Did you see how hard I worked to help other people in that thread?  Did you see how I offered multiple explanations to help people understand?  I must be such a terrible person, eh Nelson?  On a side note, I looked through that thread again and when I read it I recalled good old Luc calling me a "troll" a few months ago.   He deserves a swift kick in the ass for saying that.

And in this thread I have read many really nasty and ugly ad hominem attacks from you against me.  In case you don't know what that means, let me remind you:

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

And I have read lots of straw man arguments from you about me.  In case you don't know what that means, let me remind you:

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".

The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and the subsequent refutation of that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the opponent's proposition.


I have asked you to back up your technical claims with logical arguments and you have never done it once.  I am operating on the assumption that you are a beginner and you simply were unable to back up your technical claims.  You simply said those things because they are "buzz phrases" that beginning amateur experimenters use all the time.

So, going forward, I welcome any contribution to this thread by you.  But I don't want any more ad hominem attacks on me, nor do I want any straw man arguments being made about me, nor do I want any fake technical claims being made by you that you can't back up with logical arguments.  Does that sound reasonable?

If the subject matter is above your technical level, then try to learn, keep your hands in your pockets, relax, and watch the blinking lights.

MileHigh


“There are only four types of people in the world regarding discovery and invention:
The most common are those who watch and observe, and profit from invention and discovery; are intrigued by its discoveries.
The second most common are those who dissuade others from invention and discovery, and try to prevent them both mentally and
physically from discovery claiming: ‘this can lead to nowhere’, or ‘that course is a dead end, there is nothing there.’
The third most common are greedy and lustful inventors who desire only fame, profit, and acclaim, nothing matters but any angle that
can be exploited to be used to exploit others for their own ends. Discovery is not an ends to these people, only a means to exploit
others.
The fourth, and most rare are those who do not care about the first three types of people; these rare few have a vision or visions and
are hell-bent to uncover the mysteries of the universe, not out of desire for profit or fame or empirical motives, but the only pure,
noble, and righteous intent, that being pure discovery and understanding as its own ends. The expansion of comprehension and wisdom”
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 29, 2017, 09:58:22 AM
Your quote leaves one type out of course. The type you left out includes people who actually do know better and who point out the mistakes and false claims and even fraudulent hoaxes that the other types are too blind or biased or prejudiced or simply ignorant to see for themselves. This type you so conveniently left out can save, and has saved, millions and untold millions of dollars by vetting claims and allowing investors who are not specialists or scientists to save their money, time and creative juices for better projects that may actually have a chance of coming to fruition.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on March 29, 2017, 11:00:55 AM
Hmmm
the problem is intuition ,that nagging feeling your missing something really simple...

Milehigh posted an image of natives who saw a plane fly over and they made one out of grass thinking they could then fly too.
maybe they should make a lightning bolt ??

for a very long time we have been bombarded with energy 24/7 365 ...for ever actually [our ever]
it is jumping from the atmosphere in lightening bolts everywhere on the planet....

its so dangerous it could easily kill us....

yeah we're missing something, ...could it be as Wesley mentions ??  a simple electrostatic pump
a pump which summons lightning bolts ??

or maybe it hides in plain site in the Atom's ??

 Every single thing around us seems to be powered at the "atomic level" FOR EVER
and we're told "so what"....have you ever seen the picture of what happens if you split one of these atoms which can run for ever ??
YEASH.... !!!

And then there's the sun..it  pounds 1200 watts per meter onto the planet ....
and we're sitting on a MONSTEROUS spinning magnet...
and there is much much more....

IMO anybody who feels we have learned all there is to learn about harvesting energy on this DYNAMO of an arcing sparking planet
we inhabit [which is entirely composed of these Atom things [YIKES]

anybody who feels we know all there is to know about energy harvesting here.???

should stick to building Grass Planes  drinking beer and writing silly poems....


yeah we're definitely missing something really really simple here...

in the mean time be careful of the lightning bolts around your grass planes....and be careful with those Atom's too...

But I have to agree with Tinsel on the "not wasting time" or  other peoples Time...open source has one big advantage...
finding out the truth and vetting claims saves people time .[which is what Milehigh and others try to do]

but that requires Open source disclosure....

so as Tinsel says

""saving time and creative juices for better projects that may actually have a chance of coming to fruition.""
---------------------------------




RE Partzman and his claims ,
its not his first summer !
 Partzman practices Brutal honesty and we have all seen this many times [if you have payed attention]

he is a man of integrity and a huge asset to this OPEN SOURCE community...as are others here...

quite certain there will be more to come there ...good or bad it will be the truth....

respectfully
Chet K






Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 29, 2017, 11:04:47 AM

“There are only four types of people in the world regarding discovery and invention:
The most common are those who watch and observe, and profit from invention and discovery; are intrigued by its discoveries.
The second most common are those who dissuade others from invention and discovery, and try to prevent them both mentally and
physically from discovery claiming: ‘this can lead to nowhere’, or ‘that course is a dead end, there is nothing there.’
The third most common are greedy and lustful inventors who desire only fame, profit, and acclaim, nothing matters but any angle that
can be exploited to be used to exploit others for their own ends. Discovery is not an ends to these people, only a means to exploit
others.
The fourth, and most rare are those who do not care about the first three types of people; these rare few have a vision or visions and
are hell-bent to uncover the mysteries of the universe, not out of desire for profit or fame or empirical motives, but the only pure,
noble, and righteous intent, that being pure discovery and understanding as its own ends. The expansion of comprehension and wisdom”
+1
Who's quote is that? I've seen it before.
Im guessing, Eric p Dollard

edit: 200th reply!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on March 29, 2017, 11:50:06 AM
Carroll:

Freie Energie bald oder sterben!   ;D

Yes!

Although my last name is German and I am half German, I don't speak it, so I had to look that up.  LOL  :)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Grumage on March 29, 2017, 12:20:42 PM
Hmmm.

I see the OU Police are back on the beat.

Better pack up those gadgets and gizmos guys lest you get caught by a Cop>1!

 ;)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 29, 2017, 12:46:27 PM
Hmmm.

I see the OU Police are back on the beat.

Better pack up those gadgets and gizmos guys lest you get caught by a Cop>1!

 ;)

Well, we have seen people on this thread and others, making claims and assertions that are demonstrably wrong and easily refuted, and other wild claims that have no experimental support at all and are at odds with conventional physics. And I'm not talking about Partzman or Nelson here, who indeed belong to different categories.
 
Would you prefer that these false claims and unsupported "theorizing" go unchallenged and unrefuted, so they can filter down and corrupt the thinking of well-intentioned but naive persons who may not know any better? 

Suppose somebody told you that you could take an old one-lunger, connect it to a flywheel and a generator made from a rewound washing machine motor, and use its output to electrolyze water (with a pinch of pixie dust and a special pulse circuit of course) and run the engine solely from the gas generated? Would you drop everything else you are doing and rush out to your shed and start welding up frames and bolting parts together, and start encouraging others to do the same? Or would you shake your head and make a post or two to point out the fundamental errors in the claim?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Grumage on March 29, 2017, 01:03:13 PM
'Twas a bit of light hearted humour, nothing more.

Grab another coffee, it's early where you are!

                              :)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 29, 2017, 01:12:01 PM
'Twas a bit of light hearted humour, nothing more.

Grab another coffee, it's early where you are!

                              :)

Right you are! Except from my perspective, it's late rather than early. 4 pm local time would be my "early" !   ::)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 29, 2017, 01:28:23 PM

It all comes down to this:

“I looked at your three clips and you seem like a very nice person and you have lots of enthusiasm.  For you there is a base issue related to your investigations.  Do you try to pursue learning about conventional electronics, or do you ignore conventional electronics and only pursue learning about so-called "alternative" electronics?  Or do you try to pursue a mixture of the two?  That's your choice to make.”


That choice is not yours, and as you say, I or anyone else has the right to follow what he believes.


“What I am noticing is that this forum is not a good learning environment and if you want to learn about conventional electronics you are probably going to have to pursue that path by yourself or with other people.  I am quite certain that many people that watched your clips that like "alternative" electronics but also have a reasonable understanding of conventional electronics were not helping you when they could have helped you.  They are not sharing good information with you because doing so would make them feel uncomfortable for some strange reason.”

If this forum if this forum is not a good learning environment , what are doing here ?

“For starters, there is no such thing as single-wire energy transmission.”

Nonsense

“Now, some people are going to be upset that I made this posting.  I am trying to suggest to you that if you are interested in electronics and electronics experimentation there is a vast amount of knowledge out there.  It's up to you to determine what path you want to take.  And I am disappointed that many of the people following you that know better are not making any real effort to give you some good and useful information.  Many people have seen the types of things that you are doing dozens of times before.  They only want to throw the usual "alternative" electronics information at you.”

Are you trying to "evangelize" another sheep?


“Ooh is that TheOldScientist clip ever cringeworthy.”

Do your own experiments, and show the world how strict you are, rather than criticizing who actually does something to reach the masses.


“Sorry, but I personally have very low confidence in TheOldScientist.  He is free energy clickbait.”

Is it really? Or is it just an elbow pain you feel?


“In a certain sense I suppose that we are both in the same position then, aren't we?  You are talking before testing also, aren't you?  So why do you disagree with me?”

The only person who has not tested any of the statements was clearly you. Is not true ?


“Speaking of opening your mind, do you actually know how a coil works?  It's fun to play with them but I can tell you that more than 95% of experimenters on places like this don't know how coils actually work.”

Your certificate of incompetence certainly had not served the majority.

“Nelson, I asked you specific questions about your claims about pancake coils and your bench work and you are avoiding answering them.  Why are you avoiding answering?”

What claims did I in particular? That pancake coil have special properties?
It's true I keep my position.

“Evostars: Don't be passive-aggressive rude with this "I am not reading you" comment.”

Who are you to speak of rudeness? Surely you are not really aware of the egocentric, manipulative and disrespectful way you talk to people, do not you?


“You made some claims and when you were asked to back them up you had nothing to say.  I wasn't asking my questions for fun, I wanted to see what you had to say, which we now know is nothing.  Anybody can play with a coil and light some LEDs.  Who is acing like the child?”

No comments , you are sure that you are old enough not to behave this way, but not all in good time reach full maturity of spirit.

“Stop with your psychobabble nonsense.  I will meet your psychobabble and we will call it a truce.  You and Evostars fit the psychological profile that we all know and have seen many times before.”

To me seems exactly happen the opposite , you psychological profile should be not so much appreciated by the most people , and is just spend some minutes to read some of your posts and is clear by the feedback that people give . 

“You stick your head in the sand.  You even get desperate and start to insult the people that you were having a debate with.”

Unlike you, I did not insult anyone or make disparaging remarks from people who are not even here to defend themselves, and that is transparent as water.


“We all know how the story ends also.  After a few months of replicating all of the flashing LED experiments and the lighting of CFL experiments and replicating some amazing high voltage spark experiments done with coils, you start to lose enthusiasm and it gets less and less interesting.  You realize that after six months your progress is not going anywhere and you still don't really understand basic electronics.  So you give up and throw your coils into a cardboard box.  Five years later you realize that you still haven't touched the box and you throw it in the garbage.”

My enthusiasm is much higher than you think , but your's seems dissipate day by day just because you are only a person that seems  to be the center of attention and day by day you just become know by your irascible behavior.

“Time to stick your head in the sand (don't read this):  And when you first connect the wires from your battery to your coil, at that instant of contact the coil acts like an open-circuit.  The coil has infinite resistance when you first make an electrical contact with it.  It's all very interesting, but you don't want to know that, you want to make neons light up in your hand!”

You even know my work so , you are only speculate just to convince yourself that you are wining the "battle" created against the "evil dark people" like me , that have courage to answer you in same coin .

“Go play with your coils.”

Just when you start not have more arguments a childish answer   ,is only that that you have ?


“Like you, I also got caught up in all the pseudo science jargon of moving the aether and scalar waves etc.  Ten years later I now know most of that is just hype to sell books.”

All the pseudo science jargon of moving the aether and scalar waves are study in present time by scientists  even you or others could say is only fantasy .


“My service is to them and I can assure you that many of them understand what I am saying and they understand my qualification of you and Evostars and they know exactly what container that the two of you fit into.”

Ohh i see ,  but like you already say only 5% knows how a simple coil work , you fail roundly in your attempts , you need help the other 95%  if is really your mission . Pathetic

“Or perhaps Nelson got a dose of RomeroUK sickness.  I get the feeling there is some poor guy in Kuala Lumpur that paid a few thousand dollars for a shoe box containing a Joule Thief circuit and every few months he stares at it.  That is not going to save the millions of people that starve to death each year.”

Moralist nonsense Fedivairy , i work ever week make community service to old people and homeless people , is something that to me is already any palpable action not graisy words like yours .


“I actually came into this thread very diplomatically and tried to explain to you what you were doing and observing.  I said that you can choose to go your own way, or try pursuing two paths such that you would try to learn and understand the information that I and others were offering you.”

You diplomatically ? I spend a bit of my time collecting some sentences  since begin the topic, only to show other  people how you a are poor unfortunate , and how work your diplomacy .


“I can assure you that I seriously doubt that I will post in this thread any more to try to help you with sound advice and explanations and to share some knowledge.  I will be more than content to watch the comedy skit from the sidelines.”

Yes , but you return ! Milehigh never loose a battle , and we should make feel , that you win only to you stop and go way ?

“They apparently aren't at all interested in learning anything that might disturb their fantasies.”

My Fantasies or other's Fantasies is not of your concern like yours in not of my concern.


“So... you are EF's Allen Burgess? That explains a lot, for sure. You get yet another ROFL, and nobody will ever look at your posts here in quite the same light again. “

How kind of you to other people ...


“On a side note, I looked through that thread again and when I read it I recalled good old Luc calling me a "troll" a few months ago. He deserves a swift kick in the ass for saying that.”

Yes but maybe the opposite should happen , and fore sure much people in silence are think how true is that . 


“So, going forward, I welcome any contribution to this thread by you.  But I don't want any more ad hominem attacks on me, nor do I want any straw man arguments being made about me, nor do I want any fake technical claims being made by you that you can't back up with logical arguments.  Does that sound reasonable?

Yes very reasonable , and i told you many times that i respect you opinion about some subjects , and even that is not enough to you , because you continue try impose something to others that i really don't understand why .

If the subject matter is above your technical level, then try to learn, keep your hands in your pockets, relax, and watch the blinking lights.”


My hands are not in pockets , ether watch blinking lights; is your case ? Make something more useful for you if you mission is help the community Instead of strutting you, how smart you are.
There are sites where the information you explain is provided more clearly and without the cost of your heartburn and arrogance.

This is a forum where alternative energy is discussed. Not to endure arrogance, and unbridled  as happened in this topic.
The topic started with "The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency" and little was said about this particular issue, just because Some egocentric behaviors.

Nelson Rocha




Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 29, 2017, 01:47:06 PM
Good Nelson, you are all butt hurt for being told that your ad hominem attacks and straw man arguments are unacceptable.  It doesn't feel good to be labeled the "bad guy," does it?  It upset you to the point that you had to do the "big thread shakedown."

Just check your behaviour and simply act like a normal person.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 29, 2017, 01:55:52 PM
Quote
“So... you are EF's Allen Burgess? That explains a lot, for sure. You get yet another ROFL, and nobody will ever look at your posts here in quite the same light again. “

How kind of you to other people ...
How kind of you to mix my comment in with your quotes from MH. I repay kindness with more kindness, and scorn with more scorn, as is only fair. Have you noticed that nobody bothers to reply to Allen Burgess's threads on EF any more? (Except Ramset of course, who is superhumanly kind to everyone, stray cats and dogs included.) THAT is scorn, and is especially sour when you consider the general content of EF.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 29, 2017, 02:09:29 PM
Another quote form Tesla's patent 512340 (bifilar coils):

I have found that in every coil there exists a certain relation between its self-induction and capacity that permits a current of given frequency and potential to pass through it with no other opposition than that of ohmic resistance,

or, in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction.

 This is due to the mutual relations existing between the special character of the current and the self-induction and capacity of the coil, the latter quantity being just capable of neutralizing the self-induction for that frequency. It is well-known that the higher the frequency or potential difference of the current the smaller the capacity required to counteract the self-induction




Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on March 29, 2017, 02:52:50 PM
One thing is for sure-->those who continually dismiss the PM and water as an endless power source,will be the very same people that will go no further than they are now.

One has to have a good laugh,when you hear from others,that the PM can do no useful work--and yet they are the very same people that do not yet understand what the magnetic force actually is  ::)

There is a big difference in knowing what we can and cannot do with a magnetic field,and actually knowing what it is.
Only when you know what the magnetic force is,will you know what it can do--until then,it's just some fumbling around,and using what we know so far.

Anyway,back to my washing machine motors for me.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: partzman on March 29, 2017, 03:31:02 PM
MH, Tk, Zephir and all,

First let me say that I appreciate the constructive and well meaning criticism that you offer as help to those such as myself.  My goal is to simply continue to seek answers for those seeming anomalies which might provide a self generating device.  My post of the MEI scope pix was one such example.  Do I plan to attempt to build a looped version to really prove or disprove the concept, absolutely.

Also, I have the highest regard for the engineers at Tektronix.  I have worked directly with them regarding measurement issues with my MDO3034 and they have been most cooperative.  The newest series of their scopes are quite capable of reasonably accurate measurements if used properly, but improvements could be made especially when measuring in circuits with COP~>1.

In the recent past I made a promise to myself that I would no longer post to any forum unless I could demonstrate a self runner of some type.  All else is futile so I will attempt to return to that position.

pm
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 29, 2017, 04:52:15 PM
Another quote form Tesla's patent 512340 (bifilar coils):

I have found that in every coil there exists a certain relation between its self-induction and capacity that permits a current of given frequency and potential to pass through it with no other opposition than that of ohmic resistance,

or, in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction.

 This is due to the mutual relations existing between the special character of the current and the self-induction and capacity of the coil, the latter quantity being just capable of neutralizing the self-induction for that frequency. It is well-known that the higher the frequency or potential difference of the current the smaller the capacity required to counteract the self-induction


I am going to assume that Tesla had a strong intuitive sense and understanding of what he was observing and analyzing and applying, but he did not have the circuit analysis theory or applied mathematical background to model these systems.

The actual analysis and modeling has been around for a long time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit#Impedance

"Therefore the series LC circuit, when connected in series with a load, will act as a band-pass filter having zero impedance at the resonant frequency of the LC circuit."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit#Impedance_2

"The parallel LC circuit connected in series with a load will act as band-stop filter having infinite impedance at the resonant frequency of the LC circuit. The parallel LC circuit connected in parallel with a load will act as band-pass filter."
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Jeg on March 29, 2017, 06:10:29 PM
The only exception seems to be the ones that stubbornly stick to the idea that the current reverses when the coil discharges.  For some people there is no hope they will ever learn.

Carroll

Hi Caroll and everyone. Hi T.K. ;)

Just to share my point of view on this reversal never ending story.

We feed some dc current across an inductor to ground (-) through a switch. For example a low side mosfet switch. When this current flows, we have a certain magnetic polarity across the coil. During this time, inductor 'pushes' as to oppose to this current flow, developing a voltage polarity opposite to that of the source. When switch opens and current stops flowing, in fact there is a violent change in the ''magnetic moment''. Where North was before, now there is a sudden movement to zero. Inductor sees this change and develops instantly a counter electromotive force opposite to the one that had before when it was pushing against battery. This new coil's voltage polarity, which now is a HV spike, tries to maintain the same current direction as when current was moving. But now it is just opposes again to the sudden zeroing of current and consequently the rapid change in flux. 

The best proof for the described action, is to ''see'' straight across a secondary with your oscilloscope probes. You will see that cemf changes direction between charging and discharging actions of the primary.

So my answer to the question about if current changes direction or no: There is not any conduction current when switch opens! Just the reaction of the opposing in nature coil, which is pure voltage.
The argument is based on a wrong base.       

Regards   

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Acca on March 29, 2017, 06:25:41 PM
Mr.Nelson Rocha I have a lot respect to you as you have posted in your recent long post.


It has to be best written opinion on Over-Unity here. 


This is not a place to "learn " as the resident trolls will destroy you here for being uneducated ...


They simply are will not allow any one any help or even suggest that..


They will  dig a hole for some one to fall in and trap him in that with no way out ..


Again a fantastic post.. Kudos to you and that you have the passion to to that !!!


Acca...



Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 29, 2017, 06:39:01 PM
So my answer to the question about if current changes direction or no: There is not any conduction current when switch opens! Just the reaction of the opposing in nature coil, which is pure voltage.
The argument is based on a wrong base.       

Jeg, this important topic is all fully documented in the thread that Carroll linked to, and I suggest that you read it.

You are quoting one of the biggest misconceptions about coils that goes all the way back to the late John Bedini. It's the false idea that when the switch opens the coil produces "pure voltage" and no current.

If there was one amp of current flowing through the coil before the switch opens, then just after the instant the switch opens there is still one amp of current flowing through the coil.  However, because the switch is open, the current flow through the coil decreases rapidly to zero.

Here is the symmetry:

When you short-circuit a capacitor, the capacitor outputs voltage that decreases rapidly to zero and there is a strong pulse of current that also decreases rapidly to zero.

When you open-circuit an inductor, the inductor outputs current that decreases rapidly to zero and there is a strong pulse of voltage that also decreases rapidly to zero.

More symmetry:

A coil is absolutely NOT something that produces "pure voltage and no current."  What it really produces is is "pure current and the voltage is dependent on the load."

A capacitor is absolutely NOT something that produces "pure current and no voltage."  What it really produces is is "pure voltage and the current is dependent on the load."

It is very important that you understand this so that when you work on your bench you have a better understanding of what is taking place.

Even the tiniest coil when connected through a switch will ionize the air and create a conductive plasma when the switch opens.  This is because a coil acts like a current source.  If you do not know what a current source is then please research this important topic.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on March 29, 2017, 06:49:28 PM
Acca

I totally disagree with your post.  The only reason someone can't learn on this forum is because they refuse to learn.  I have posted several links in this thread for those that are willing to learn.  Here is only one of them.

https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-current-direction-change-when-an-inductor-discharges (https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-current-direction-change-when-an-inductor-discharges)

After I posted it apparently no one took the time to even look at it.  It was obvious they didn't because of their inane comments.  I also posted this link to a discussion thread that had lots of info about the myth of reversing current when a coil discharges.

http://overunity.com/16203/inductive-kickback/ (http://overunity.com/16203/inductive-kickback/)

After posting that I was told there was no reason to read it.  We can't help people learn if they refuse to even look at what we are trying to show them.  It appears you would rather let them continue in their confusion rather than have those of us that know better actually try to help them.  You are putting down the very people that are doing exactly what you claim they are not doing.

Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 29, 2017, 07:39:05 PM
Good Nelson, you are all butt hurt for being told that your ad hominem attacks and straw man arguments are unacceptable.  It doesn't feel good to be labeled the "bad guy," does it?  It upset you to the point that you had to do the "big thread shakedown."

Just check your behavior and simply act like a normal person.

I'm hurt ? ohh really  ? You upset me ? not so sure .. but i don't have your time to answer you, ever time you post , myself don't live without work :)  .

Bad guy me ?
I did not know about that my facet , and i really wonder how bad i could be in your mouth and in your words you are hilarious .

You should really check you behavior , because you act like a a kid that someone steal their toy and go call the papa .
Don't be ridiculous , you simple don't accept that someone disagree from you but i will tell you again :

I'm owner of myself Thoughts , and is not you or anyone that influence me just to please, or be part of the "elite" of Illuminated group .
I have the right of disagree, when I do not agree with some affirmation ,  and myself are free to  learn too , with other ideas or new concepts that you could not agree or even know or understand  .So simple like that .

I just say, like someone could read in the posts i write , that pancake coil have special properties and that to me is irrefutable, under what i see in practical work and others already saw , something that you don't know but  only theorize .

But even that why you struggling to convince me ? No one impose nothing to you , in fact i repeat lot of times that even disagree i respect your opinion , and i did not concentrate so much energy to convince you from the opposite Well no sir ?

 To you even Nikola Tesla seems that not have the "mathematical background"  to model their own systems . That is you worst shot  , that i could hear and only could be like a bad joke , or simple nonsense .  is my sincerely opinion .

Do not bother to continue to convince me with your copy past, and with your ideas. If I were looking for what you have make copy past, i am able to do it in the most diverse sites where you are going to get the information, and in many others.
Simple like that.

Nothing more to add .

Have a nice day , and enjoy

Nelson Rocha
 
 
   
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 29, 2017, 07:53:33 PM
Another quote form Tesla's patent 512340 (bifilar coils):

I have found that in every coil there exists a certain relation between its self-induction and capacity that permits a current of given frequency and potential to pass through it with no other opposition than that of ohmic resistance,

or, in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction.

 This is due to the mutual relations existing between the special character of the current and the self-induction and capacity of the coil, the latter quantity being just capable of neutralizing the self-induction for that frequency. It is well-known that the higher the frequency or potential difference of the current the smaller the capacity required to counteract the self-induction


Yes Evostars , the father of pancake coils  say exactly that "it possessed no self-induction"  only need find the right frequency to that happens , and seems is that that some really don't agree  , and that is the reason to the compass not show any deflection even when  drive a load , not by the high frequency like someone say .

Cheers


Nelson Rocha

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 29, 2017, 08:45:28 PM
What is this, low-hanging-fruit day?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd5w8KhYrQk

OF COURSE it is frequency dependent.

What do you think "IN EVERY COIL" means in that quote? He is NOT ONLY referring to his bifilar winding.
As Tesla says in the patent, the Tesla Bifilar winding has increased interturn capacitance which reduces
the EXTERNAL CAPACITANCE needed to produce this effect on self-inductance at a given frequency and voltage.
In his day, high-voltage capacitors were bulky, expensive and unreliable, so there was a good reason to
try to reduce the external capacitance required and to increase the self-capacitance of certain coils which
he used in his "tesla coils" of various designs. Note the title of the patent: Coil for ELECTROMAGNETS.
But the effect itself can be obtained WITH ANY COIL and suitable external capacitance.

So how do you get a magnetic field in your electromagnet without self-inductance? How do you transfer
power to a secondary coil without an alternating magnetic field? By magic? Funny, then, how well
mathematical models work for coil behaviour when they don't have to include magic in the calculations.

http://www.nde-ed.org/EducationResources/CommunityCollege/EddyCurrents/Physics/selfinductance.htm

Many people who should know better choose to misinterpret Tesla's patent, and not only this one.
And many people seem to confuse inductive reactance with self-inductance. 

(And Tesla isn't the "father of pancake coils". At best he's a cousin or nephew.)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 29, 2017, 08:52:46 PM
I am going to assume that Tesla had a strong intuitive sense and understanding of what he was observing and analyzing and applying, but he did not have the circuit analysis theory or applied mathematical background to model these systems.

The actual analysis and modeling has been around for a long time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit#Impedance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit#Impedance)

"Therefore the series LC circuit, when connected in series with a load, will act as a band-pass filter having zero impedance at the resonant frequency of the LC circuit."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit#Impedance_2 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit#Impedance_2)

"The parallel LC circuit connected in series with a load will act as band-stop filter having infinite impedance at the resonant frequency of the LC circuit. The parallel LC circuit connected in parallel with a load will act as band-pass filter."

Exactly. There is nothing magic or special about the Tesla bifilar winding to produce this effect. As Tesla says in the quote, "IN EVERY COIL". The Tesla bifilar winding just has more interturn capacitance and so needs less external capacitance to make the LC circuit resonate at a given frequency. AS TESLA SAYS in the patent.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 29, 2017, 08:55:30 PM
I just say, like someone could read in the posts i write , that pancake coil have special properties and that to me is irrefutable, under what i see in practical work and others already saw , something that you don't know but  only theorize .

Yes you can claim that a pancake coil has special properties.  Now, this might be the third time I will ask you:  What are the special properties of the pancake coil?  If you don't say anything one more time then people will conclude that you have nothing.

Yes Evostars , the father of pancake coils  say exactly that "it possessed no self-induction"  only need find the right frequency to that happens , and seems is that that some really don't agree

You are not understanding the links I posted earlier.  This statement, "Therefore the series LC circuit, when connected in series with a load, will act as a band-pass filter having zero impedance at the resonant frequency of the LC circuit," says that the coil possesses no self-induction at the resonance frequency because the lnductive reactance is cancelled out by the capacitive reactance.

(No self induction) is the reason to the compass not show any deflection even when  drive a load , not by the high frequency like someone say .

So you are finally making a technical statement to back up one of your claims.  Unfortunately the statement is wrong.  Your logic seems to be this: "Since the pancake coil has no self-induction, therefore the coil is not producing a magnetic field, therefore the compass needle shows no deflection."  The pancake coil is producing a magnetic field whether it is in self-resonance or not in self-resonance.  In fact, the chances of the coil in your clip actually being in self-resonance are dubious, there is a lot of resonance confirmation bias taking place between you and Evostars.  The coil having no self-induction at self-resonance does not mean that the coil is not producing a magnetic field.  Like I previously stated, the compass needle is simply not going to deflect in the presence of a high-frequency AC magnetic field.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 29, 2017, 08:56:49 PM
Yes, Nelson, you have "The right to disagree". You also have the "right" to be wrong. But do you have the right to push your wrong ideas onto other people?

Tell us what Tesla means when he says "IN EVERY COIL".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on March 29, 2017, 09:45:54 PM
What really amazes me is how many people have jumped on this bandwagon that resonance is some kind of magic ingredient in an OU device.  I am not saying that OU is not possible although I haven't seen definite proof of it yet, but I don't think most people on these forums have a clue what resonance is or how normal and common it is.  Resonance has been used since the very early days of radio to allow you to tune in one station instead of a bunch of them at one time.  In any superterodyne receiver there are several tuned stages to give more gain and selectivity to the signal.  I am not saying more gain in power.  All of these stages are tuned to resonance for the best transfer of signal.  Ham radio operators use to have to tune their transmitters so the output stages were in resonance.  Now it is done automatically for them.  I think YouTube must be a secret plot to dumb down the people of this and other countries because that seems to be the only place anyone wants to learn from.

GET SOME REAL EDUCATION PEOPLE AND FORGET THE GARBAGE YOU ARE LEARNING FROM DUMBTUBE.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 29, 2017, 10:08:40 PM


“So you are finally making a technical statement to back up one of your claims. Unfortunately the statement is wrong. Your logic seems to be this: "Since the pancake coil has no self-induction, therefore the coil is not producing a magnetic field, therefore the compass needle shows no deflection." The pancake coil is producing a magnetic field whether it is in self-resonance or not in self-resonance.”

Where you see i say that pancake coil has no self induction MH ?

I say :

“the father of pancake coils say exactly that "it possessed no self-induction" only need find the right frequency to that happens .”
 
Are you blind you are you try manipulate  what i wrote ?

“ Your logic seems to be this: "Since the pancake coil has no self-induction, therefore the coil is not producing a magnetic field”

MH Is you logic not mine a logic of someone very dirty  but not surprise me i already saw that same behavior in other occasions.


“The coil having no self-induction at self-resonance does not mean that the coil is not producing a magnetic field.”


MH You write that not me . Did i wrote  that not produce magnetic field ?  show me please where i wrote that .

“Yes, Nelson, you have "The right to disagree". You also have the "right" to be wrong. But do you have the right to push your wrong ideas onto other people?”

For sure i that right to disagree, but what wrong ideia are you talk about TK  ?

When he says: "in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction...", he is NOT suggesting that there are no external magnetic fields or effects associated with magnetic fields!

Erfinder where i wrote that please show me . Read very well the post , MH make that assumption because like manipulate what people say but i did not write that  .   

“How do you transfer power to a secondary coil without an alternating magnetic field? By magic? “
TK are you try put words in my mouth too  ? I will tell you to read better where i wrote that because is not my affirmation , but seems convenient to you make that assumption…

“The Tesla bifilar winding just has more interturn capacitance and so needs less external capacitance to make the LC circuit resonate at a given frequency”

TK isn’t that a special property of pancake coil in relation to others coils ? It seems to me that is one special property isn't  ?    


“Yes you can claim that a pancake coil has special properties. Now, this might be the third time I will ask you: What are the special properties of the pancake coil? If you don't say anything one more time then people will conclude that you have nothing.”

MH People could conclude what they want , just need be impartial and read very clearly all the posts .
 You manipulate what i say nothing more then that , but is nothing new by your side .
And i know that you will continue again and again but it’s ok . keep trying ...:)  I'm just now light a neon to you :) only with a hand .

real sad real sad .

Nelson Rocha












Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 29, 2017, 11:40:06 PM
Quote
“The Tesla bifilar winding just has more interturn capacitance and so needs less external capacitance to make the LC circuit resonate at a given frequency”

TK isn’t that a special property of pancake coil in relation to others coils ? It seems to me that is one special property isn't  ? 
 

Yes, that is a "special property" not only of "pancake coil" but of the Tesla Bifilar winding, whether flat or solenoidal, and I have never said it isn't. It is the heart of Tesla's patent 512340, after all. I have explained how this is useful, or was useful in Tesla's day. But that doesn't make the coil magic. Yet people still attribute all kinds of other special properties to it, which it does not in fact have.

"IN EVERY COIL".... that "special property" of cancellation of self-inductance at a particular voltage and frequency is a property of EVERY coil. Yet people say that the Tesla Bifilar pancake coil winding is "special" because of this property that EVERY coil has. Perhaps you are not one of those people, but some of the people commenting here certainly are.

Now, the _flat_ or "pancake" coil does have one other "special" property, no matter if it is Single wound or Tesla Bifilar: When used as the primary of an air-core resonating transformer, it allows the builder to get the outermost turns (corresponding to the upper turns of a solenoidal coil) a good distance away from the secondary, and this is advantageous for two reasons. First, it lessens the chance of high-voltage flashover between the secondary resonator and the primary, which can be dangerous to equipment and personnel. Second, it "loosens" the magnetic coupling coefficient between the two coils, which allows the resonator to "ring" more freely when it gets a pulse from the primary.

Meanwhile.... note the Tesla Bifilar primary on my little mini-sstc here:
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 29, 2017, 11:52:00 PM
Where you see i say that pancake coil has no self induction MH ?

I say :

“the father of pancake coils say exactly that "it possessed no self-induction" only need find the right frequency to that happens .”
 
Are you blind you are you try manipulate  what i wrote ?

You said this:

<<< Yes Evostars , the father of pancake coils  say exactly that "it possessed no self-induction"  only need find the right frequency to that happens , and seems is that that some really don't agree  , and that is the reason to the compass not show any deflection even when  drive a load , not by the high frequency like someone say .  >>>

And I requoted it as this:

<<< (No self induction) is the reason to the compass not show any deflection even when  drive a load , not by the high frequency like someone say>>>

You are saying the pancake coil has no self-induction at resonance which results in the compass needle not deflecting.  There is no manipulation there at all.  Perhaps it is related to language for you since English is your third language?   Why are you still in confrontational mode?

MH Is you logic not mine a logic of someone very dirty  but not surprise me i already saw that same behavior in other occasions.

Did you read what I said to you before?  <<<And in this thread I have read many really nasty and ugly ad hominem attacks from you against me.>>>  If you can't stop the ad hominem attacks then you should leave this thread.

MH You write that not me . Did i wrote  that not produce magnetic field ?  show me please where i wrote that .

I used the speculative word "seems."  <<< Your logic seems to be this...>>>  I am not saying that you definitively stated that the coil does not produce a magnetic field.

If you agree that the coil produces a magnetic field, then what is your explanation for the compass needles not deflecting in your video?

real sad real sad .

One more time:  No more ad hominem attacks.  Discuss the technical points only.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: web000x on March 30, 2017, 12:03:16 AM
@evostars,


What are the measured LC values and wire gauge for your bifilar coils?  I'd also be interested in the read out of a capacitance meter connected to one leg of each coil while the coils are not connected on the far end.  I am curious if the similar orientation of the dielectric field in the pancake coil produces a stronger capacitance vs a bifilar solenoid.  Dollard seemed to think the planetary alignments had a more profound impact on electrical phenomena because of the dielectric flux orientation between them so this test stands to reason... 


Dave


PS @Efinder, thanks
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 30, 2017, 12:46:15 AM
Quote from: MileHigh
this might be the third time I will ask you:  What are the special properties of the pancake coil?
The pancake coil has the evanescent scalar wave phenomena enhanced - whereas the normal inductors have them suppressed. The tunneling of EM (http://www.nature.com/news/2000/000530/full/news000601-5.html) wave through evanescent field (http://cds.cern.ch/record/547324/files/0204043.pdf) runs with superluminal speed (https://arxiv.org/abs/0708.0681), whereas EM wave in classical circuits always propagates with speed of light or lower. The overunity is extradimensional, normal causality violating effect in essence and the normal spreading of EM waves along conductors cannot achieve it.

Quote from: TinselKoala
the _flat_ or "pancake" coil does have one other "special" property, no matter if it is Single wound or Tesla Bifilar

The bifilar coil collect the A-field component of magnetic field, which isn't detectable with normal coil around torus (Aharamov-Bohm effect (http://www.overunity.com/14397/jerry-bayles-chiral-effect-homopolar-a-vector-alternator-and-syncho-coil/15)). Even at the case, when normal coil is used, then some magnetic field leaks from toroid, because it's coil represents one loop of winding by itself. Once the bifiliar coil doesn't induce the back-EMF voltage and magnetic flux into the circuit, then all energy collected on such a coil must be redundant and as such overunity. The conclusion therefore is, that the every bifilar coil wound around standard Joule-Thief oscillator winding should collect portion of its energy for free.

IMO the MileHigh/TinselKoala should get banned from this site, as their long-term agenda contradicts the very purpose of this forum: the research and spreading the overunity technology. In my experience just a few dedicated trolls like these two ones (note their posts count) can disrupt the constructive atmosphere of the whole forum. You cannot achieve the understanding of overunity with using of laws, principles and concepts, which are itself based on energy conservation law - to pretend otherwise would be just an oxymoron. The raising such laws, concepts and principles therefore doesn't and cannot ad nothing into discussion. You can be very educated / experienced in it, but just this education would prohibit you in understanding, why and how the overunity is working. We don't need explanations, why overunity is impossible - every textbooks and Wikipedia contains more than enough of this propaganda. We all did come to this site not because we don't know, that the overunity shouldn't work - but just because of it: we perceive it as a scientific anomaly.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 30, 2017, 01:31:56 AM
@evostars,


What are the measured LC values and wire gauge for your bifilar coils?  I'd also be interested in the read out of a capacitance meter connected to one leg of each coil while the coils are not connected on the far end.  I am curious if the similar orientation of the dielectric field in the pancake coil produces a stronger capacitance vs a bifilar solenoid.  Dollard seemed to think the planetary alignments had a more profound impact on electrical phenomena because of the dielectric flux orientation between them so this test stands to reason... 


Dave


PS @Efinder, thanks
top coil (of 3 stacked coils,  center pulsed,  top bottom series connected) :  70 turns, 1.78 nF  0.51mH
bottom coil 0.47mH   1,72nF (coil tuned to topcoil, by adding 2x 50pF in parallel, so both resonate at the same frequency)
center coil (tighterwound)  2,58 nF 0.57mH

capacitance was measured by disconnecting the 2 windings (what i call "bridge")
my lcr meter is a very cheap chinese CA-4070L.

Edit: I havent done your reading yet, with 2  coils stacked, but not connected, and then one lead of each coil to measure capacitance.
The wire gauge, I dont know. the diameter including enamal coating is around 0.8mm. they are hand wound on cd sleeves with 70 turns total (2x35)

edit2: done the measurement. around 47pF between the top and bottom coil (without the center coil) not series connected,
again, a poor reading from a cheap LCR meter.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: web000x on March 30, 2017, 01:52:11 AM
top coil (of 3 stacked coils,  center pulsed,  top bottom series connected) :  70 turns, 1.78 nF  0.51mH
bottom coil 0.47mH   1,72nF (coil tuned to topcoil, by adding 2x 50pF in parallel, so both resonate at the same frequency)
center coil (tighterwound)  2,58 nF 0.57mH

capacitance was measured by disconnecting the 2 windings (what i call "bridge")
my lcr meter is a very cheap chinese CA-4070L.

Edit: I havent done your reading yet, with 2  coils stacked, but not connected, and then one lead of each coil to measure capacitance.
The wire gauge, I dont know. the diameter including enamal coating is around 0.8mm. they are hand wound on cd sleeves with 70 turns total (2x35)

edit2: done the measurement. around 47pF between the top and bottom coil (without the center coil) not series connected,
again, a poor reading from a cheap LCR meter.


Thanks,
 
Those numbers aren't too far from a couple of coils I've got at 100 turns 23 gauge bifilar.  One coil (standard bifilar will little concern to proximity of two wires during winding process) measured 2.9 nF.  The second coil (wires twisted together with a drill to increase bifilar winding proximity) measured 2.6 nF.  I'm not sure why the twisted pair of wires had less capacitance which was another reason for my curiosity into the capacitance of the pancake coil.  Maybe a learned person will shed light, lol..


Dave
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 30, 2017, 01:54:41 AM

 
 When he says:  "in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction...", he is NOT suggesting that there are no external magnetic fields or effects associated with magnetic fields!   
 
 
 Undivided attention, and careful consideration should be given to the bold text......

"mutual relations" existing between the special character of the current and the self-induction and capacity of the coil......

If and when you comprehend what he's suggesting, you discover the true  purpose of the flat spiral wound "bifilar" coil, it's got nothing to do with anything that is being debated.  It's about purpose....he gave you the purpose in the title.....  Try asking yourself...what in the hell is he referring to by this "special character of the current".

Quote:
 
"I have found that in every coil there exists a certain relation between its self-induction and capacity that permits a current of a given frequency and potential to pass through it with no other opposition  than that of ohmic resistance, or, in other words, as though it possessed no self -induction."
 
 
 So that its clear....  we are informed of what was "observed", as it applies to "every coil", we are informed of this "AFTER" we are informed of the "PURPOSE", which was.....:
 
 
 "My present invention has for its object to avoid the employment of condensers which are expensive and cumbersome and difficult to maintain in perfect condition, and to so construct the coils themselves as to accomplish the same ultimate object.
 
 That which was "observed" in every coil is to be kept in mind while becoming informed/familiarized with the latest development and or improvement.


Tesla is leading us to something profound here.....fucking recognize it!


The special character of the current.

spiraling. compressing inwards.

the compass points at the center of the coil, while the dielectric field is equaly concentrated between the windings, over the whole coil. where the "bloch wall" of a magnet would be.

what about the phase between the dielectric and magnetic fields? And its influence on the impedance.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 30, 2017, 01:57:08 AM

Thanks,
 
Those numbers aren't too far from a couple of coils I've got at 100 turns 23 gauge bifilar.  One coil (standard bifilar will little concern to proximity of two wires during winding process) measured 2.9 nF.  The second coil (wires twisted together with a drill to increase bifilar winding proximity) measured 2.6 nF.  I'm not sure why the twisted pair of wires had less capacitance which was another reason for my curiosity into the capacitance of the pancake coil.  Maybe a learned person will shed light, lol..


Dave

Maybe because the fields twist around the windings
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 30, 2017, 02:12:02 AM
Yes Evostars , the father of pancake coils  say exactly that "it possessed no self-induction"  only need find the right frequency to that happens , and seems is that that some really don't agree  , and that is the reason to the compass not show any deflection even when  drive a load , not by the high frequency like someone say .
Hmm I dont know. I will check this, with a compass next to the coil. I have noticed the magnetic field doing funny things below its resonant frequency.
As the wave shape is not sinodial anymore.

Still I do wonder what the differnce of a biffilar coil would be if the windings where on top of each other, instead of next to each other.

As is a bifilar coil made from speaker wire. one winding on top of the other winding, so you have 2 pancake coils on top of eachother. The dielectric field wil then be between the 2 windings. the inductance would also be differnt, as the 2 coils are not alligned anymore.

The dielectric field will now be at 90 degrees to the magnetic field.

I really have to build this and check it.

The resonant frequency video is thougher then I tought. Even wikipedia has no propaganda page on it. Impedance, and the phase relation between the fields is a bitch. With DC the impedance is equal to resistance, due to the phase differnce being 0. 

So, I guess, at the right frequency the phase difference between the magnetic and dielelectric must be 0.
Man I really could use some VR to visualise the fields.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 30, 2017, 03:01:28 AM
 
Those numbers aren't too far from a couple of coils I've got at 100 turns 23 gauge bifilar.  One coil (standard bifilar will little concern to proximity of two wires during winding process) measured 2.9 nF.  The second coil (wires twisted together with a drill to increase bifilar winding proximity) measured 2.6 nF.  I'm not sure why the twisted pair of wires had less capacitance which was another reason for my curiosity into the capacitance of the pancake coil.  Maybe a learned person will shed light, lol..

I am not sure how you guys are measuring the capacitance of your pancake coils but what I can say is that if you hook the leads of an LCR meter to the two terminals of the coil and set it to capacitance you are almost certainly getting an incorrect reading.  The basic problem is a capacitor has a DC open-circuit between the two terminals and a coil has a near DC short-circuit between the two terminals.

I am under the impression that capacitance and inductance meters excite the device under test with a series of discrete frequencies and measure the impedance and crunch the numbers back from that.  Honestly I am not sure what they actually do and I suspect different models and different brands do different things.  But it is safe to say that a capacitance meter is not expecting to see a near short-circuit in the device under test.

My suggestion is that a frequency sweep is the only way to measure the capacitance and then you have to crunch the numbers backwards to get the value.  I also suspect that as you sweep the frequency up that the pancake coil will manifest both series LC and parallel LC properties depending on the frequency and there might be multiple poles and zeros in the impedance as you do the frequency sweep. At higher frequencies just the proximity of your hand to the coil may affect the response.  This is all speculation on my part.  TK and others would know much more than me.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: web000x on March 30, 2017, 03:15:10 AM
I am not sure how you guys are measuring the capacitance of your pancake coils but what I can say is that if you hook the leads of an LCR meter to the two terminals of the coil and set it to capacitance you are almost certainly getting an incorrect reading.  The basic problem is a capacitor has a DC open-circuit between the two terminals and a coil has a near DC short-circuit between the two terminals.

I am under the impression that capacitance and inductance meters excite the device under test with a series of discrete frequencies and measure the impedance and crunch the numbers back from that.  Honestly I am not sure what they actually do and I suspect different models and different brands do different things.  But it is safe to say that a capacitance meter is not expecting to see a near short-circuit in the device under test.

My suggestion is that a frequency sweep is the only way to measure the capacitance and then you have to crunch the numbers backwards to get the value.  I also suspect that as you sweep the frequency up that the pancake coil will manifest both series LC and parallel LC properties depending on the frequency and there might be multiple poles and zeros in the impedance as you do the frequency sweep. At higher frequencies just the proximity of your hand to the coil may affect the response.  This is all speculation on my part.  TK and others would know much more than me.

MileHigh


The test I referred to is one where the two coils in the bifilar windings are two capacitor plates.  In this configuration, you can indeed use a capacitance meter.  My coils are not pancake coils, rather bifilar solenoid coils.  I was interested in the relations between evostars coil capacitance vs some of the one's I had made.


Dave
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 30, 2017, 03:46:24 AM
The test I referred to is one where the two coils in the bifilar windings are two capacitor plates.  In this configuration, you can indeed use a capacitance meter.  My coils are not pancake coils, rather bifilar solenoid coils.  I was interested in the relations between evostars coil capacitance vs some of the one's I had made.

Yes I read your posting and I am aware of what you requested.  I was just making generic comments that of course would apply to solenoid coils also. I seem to vaguely recall someone doing a YouTube clip where two physically similar solenoid coils, one regular and one bifilar, were frequency swept and the bifilar one had a lower resonance frequency which is a satisfyingly expected result.

As another generic comment, one has to wonder about the coil self-capacitance because it can only exist as a very brief transient because the "plates" are really just a minuscule puff of charge on a conductor that "shorts out the plates" presumably very quickly.  In a true stand-alone self-resonating coil, there presumably would be such a minuscule amount of charge circulating back and forth that the AC current and corresponding magnetic field would probably be very very weak.  I have always speculated that Tesla's bifilar pancake coil was a big coil perhaps 12 feet in diameter.  I am not sure if there are any pictures of some in his lab.  Perhaps they self-resonated in the tens of kilohertz frequency range and were more "stable" for lack of a better term.  Perhaps that means that a small bifilar pancake coil that you see around here self-resonates in the megahertz range.  One meter corresponds to 300 megahertz.  So if your coil is made of 10 meters of wire and let's say the propagation inside the coil is 95% the speed of light, perhaps the "action" is somewhere in the tens of megahertz range.  This is all just speculation for the fun of it.

I will just repeat, I suspect that the patent by Tesla was more of an academic exercise.  I doubt that his design saw any practical use because if it did we would surely know about it.  I would also like it if there was an "end game."  You know, something like a kid takes a handful of transistors and resistors and a few LEDs and builds a 4-bit up-down digital counter - he has an end game.  What is the end game for the bifilar pancake coil?

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 30, 2017, 11:42:32 AM
@MH, the way that the interturn capacitance of a Tesla Bifilar coil is generally measured is to break the
"crossover" series connection between the inner turn of one winding and the outer turn of the second winding
(or, in the case of solenoidal coils, between the top of one winding and the bottom of the other).
Then you have two separate lengths of wire closely adjacent, forming a capacitor in the same way as the old
"gimmick" caps of low pF values formed from a couple of short lengths of insulated wire twisted together
that we used to see in ham radios and other applications. You are entirely correct that common meters
cannot measure the capacitance of the fully-connected coil.

As usual, the capacitance thus formed is proportional to the areas of the "plates" or wires and inversely
proportional to the spacing between the wires (usually just the insulation thickness in the close-wound
TBF winding.)
 
But does this method actually give the true interturn capacitance that the coil has when fully connected
and in an oscillating or pulsed high voltage circuit as Tesla intended it to be used in the patent?
I'll leave the answer to that as an exercise for the readers.

As to how the meters actually measure this capacitance, there are several ways. One way is to put the
DUT in parallel with a known inductance inside the meter, and then "interrogate" the tank circuit thus
formed with a pulse and see how the tank responds -- it will "ring" at its resonant frequency -- then
the inductance can be calculated in the usual manner. Another way is, as you said, to measure the impedance
at some particular frequency or set of frequencies and calculate back from there.

And has been stated many times by now, Tesla sought to reduce the reliance upon expensive, bulky, costly
and unreliable _external_ HV capacitors for the primaries of his air-core resonating transformers ("Tesla Coils",
magnifying transmitters, etc) by raising the self-capacitance of these primaries in the manner described in
the patent. Nowadays this issue is rather moot because of advances in capacitor technology but for Tesla
it was a significant factor. So the patent is more than just an academic exercise; it had real-world implications
and applications for Tesla and other experimenters and builders of his day. Today, there is nothing a TBF
winding can do that cannot also be done with an ordinary monofilar winding and some added external capacitance.
"IN EVERY COIL...", as Tesla says in the patent.


I'm glad to see that "some people" are actually _reading_ Tesla's patent instead of snipping sections,
ignoring others and taking quotes out-of-context. Maybe what I've been telling them all along is
beginning to sink in.

As far as the comments of "NEWBIES" like this Zephir character go... I encourage them to perform their
own experiments and attempt to support their wild and non-physical claims with results of their own, rather
than spouting jargon and posting links that are irrelevant to the matters at hand. Have these people ever
actually done ANY experimentation at all, I wonder? Certainly I don't recall zeeing any reports of such from
Zephir.

Tesla would roll in his grave if he could see some of the utter BS that is spouted in his name... or maybe he'd just LOL.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 30, 2017, 12:59:46 PM
Quote
I encourage them to perform their own experiments and attempt to support their wild and non-physical claims with results of their own, rather than spouting jargon and posting links that are irrelevant to the matters at I encourage them to perform their own experiments and attempt to support their wild and non-physical claims with results of their own, rather than spouting jargon and posting links that are irrelevant to the matters at hand. hand.
The attitude of yours is completely imbecille. You even haven't proven my links are irrelevant to my claims and what you call jargon is normal scientific language. You can make an experiments whole your productive life, yet not to get an inch closer to actual solution of overunity, because you're ignorant in your very heart and you're blocking certain type of information in your head. You shouldn't therefore block this information for heads of other people just because of warning example of yours.

You know, I understand perfectly the problem with you. In history of science it's very common situation, when the very productive and successfull people (like the Ernst Rutherford, who was Nobelist in his young age and who is founder of atom nuclei) became soon or later a most rigid part of establishment and they blocked the further progress (for example with cold fusion (http://arxivblog.com/?p=664)). In my country I personally know many similar people like you in person - for example  this guy (https://twitter.com/jessicadanyk) is very capable electrotechnician (http://www.danyk.cz/index_en.html) and hobbyist, who enjoys youtubers with his wild experiments. But despite (actually just because)  of it he is one of most effective and dangerous trolls regarding overunity.

His videos are most widespread overunity fakes (1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mND_PXZ5vOA), 2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcuKjBiYSyI)) at youtube, which are polluting public overunity space and which are copied with another trolls mindlessly (you can still recognize them by his voice and Slavish accent easily). In this way, just the establishment of community becomes the most prominent brake of its further progress. The number of (failed) attempts for overunity device replications (Tesla coil with bifilar for example) fools the newbies and makes false impression of your qualification for overunity subject in layman posters here. But in fact you're way more dangerous troll, than the government silencing progress of alternative energy research, because you're acting inside and within overunity community. I insist, you should be banned from here because of your counterproductive behavior here. The greatest enemies of overunity community are these most respected internal ones.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on March 30, 2017, 01:47:17 PM
Zephir,

I have given you several links to real experiments that show you are clearly wrong.  You refuse to look at them.  Why?  Are you so afraid your false dogma will be shown for what it is?

Show me even one example that clearly shows the current reversing when a coil discharges.  Just one.  Not a bunch of drivel about how someone should be banned because they don't agree with you.  Show me some real evidence done in a controlled way that supports your false idea.  I know you can't do it because it is not true.  All the tests that were done in the thread I have been trying to get you to read show the current does not reverse when a coil discharges.  Only the voltage reverses because the coil becomes the source instead of the load when power is removed from the coil.

You asked were I got such a idea.  I got it from the high school physics class I took.  I got it from the college physics class I took.  I got it when I studied for my first class commercial FCC license.  I got it when I studied for my advanced class amateur radio operators license.  And I got it again when I went back to college for my electronics degree.  I also saw it in action almost every day that I worked as an electronics tech in an industrial plant for 30 years.

If anyone should be banned it is those that come here and deliberately post false information to confuse those really trying to learn.  Are you one of them?  It sure seems so because you twist everything anyone else posts.  I have heard that really dumb argument before that insists education and training gets in the way of open thinking.  That is just plain dumb.  How can you possibly know when you have discovered something new if you don't know what has already been discovered?  You can't.  And that is why we see so much foolishness on DumbTube.  Because people with no education post videos about their great discoveries and others with no education believe them.

I have spent many hours the last 10 years or so trying to help people on forums like this to learn about electronics.  I have built over 10 of the Bedini Simple School Girls circuit.  Which is not the circuit you posted when you tried to claim it was not anything like the Accutron watch circuit.  I have helped close to a hundred other people wanting to learn electronics to get their SSG to work by slowly taking them through the process of debugging their system that didn't work.

A sure sign of someone that doesn't know what they are talking about is when they attack the other person instead of the topic being discussed.  So I expect you will follow your past pattern and attack me for this post.  That is the only thing you can do because you have no evidence to back up your claim that current reverses when a coil discharges.

Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 30, 2017, 02:43:54 PM
some shout: The Earth is flat! you fools,  it has been proven! the earth is the center of the galaxy! you fools it has been proven.

clearly we live on the same earth,  and we now believe its a sphere (most of us).

maybe in the future we find out its a hollow sphere,  and we live in the inside.

What I'm trying to say,  is its all a matter of perspective.

you can see the electrons and atoms as particles, because it was proven,  as was the flat earth.

I never believed this to be true. all is light,  all is made of light fields and vortexes. particles are made up to under stand the complexity of the fields easier. but its only a trick,  that has its limitations. even the dielectric and magnetic fields are made of the same stuff. light.

please believe your own truth, which ever works best for you.


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 30, 2017, 06:28:24 PM
Consider the image below, describing a very complicated circuit.

With the switch closed, does the LED light? In which direction does the current (conventional) flow through the coil?

When the switch is opened, does the LED flash? In which direction MUST the current flow from the coil if the LED is to flash?
 


People may agree or disagree about opinions. But as Richard Feynman said...

Quote
It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Jeg on March 30, 2017, 07:20:33 PM
Consider the image below, describing a very complicated circuit.

With the switch closed, does the LED light? In which direction does the current (conventional) flow through the coil?

When the switch is opened, does the LED flash? In which direction MUST the current flow from the coil if the LED is to flash?
 


People may agree or disagree about opinions. But as Richard Feynman said...

Is there any chance to confuse counter emf with current? If current doesn't reverse then why a secondary added to the coil in your drawing gives the attached waveform? Blue is drain, yellow is across the secondary. Switching is at low side and not high as in your drawing but the end result is the same. Notice that when current is flawing, secondary is negative. When switch opens secondary changes direction and goes to positive. Reverse of counter emf across any secondary indicates reverse of current flawing across a primary. Led lights because you apply in the right direction a voltage potential. If current was flawing at the same direction across your primary, then across the secondary we would see a negative value which goes even more negative when switch is open. Isn't that true?     
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Jeg on March 30, 2017, 07:26:35 PM
Purple is current across the primary. Yellow is the voltage across the secondary. I see a current which increases and suddenly changes to the other direction towards zero.

I think that changing direction of current is not the right term to describe it, and there lays all the misunderstanding. It is more a rapid break to the current flow and not an actual reverse of current. But coil will react by changing voltage polarity.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 30, 2017, 07:39:13 PM
@Jeg:   look at the sign (polarity) of the EMF in Faraday's Law of Induction:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday%27s_law_of_induction (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday%27s_law_of_induction)


Is it possible that "some people" are confused about this? Certainly, just look back in the thread for examples. But we are not talking here about current/voltage induced in a secondary, we are talking about what happens to the current in a single coil when the power to that coil is interrupted.

If you look at the schematic, you will see that when the switch is opened the _bottom_ end of the coil becomes Positive in analogy to a battery. This is the only way that the LED can flash, since it is reverse-biased when the switch is closed. So when the switch is opened, you can think of the voltage on the coil as "reversing" but the CURRENT definitely does not. When the switch is opened, the coil tries to resist changing in its magnetic field and to do this it must keep current flowing in the _same_ direction as before, for as long as it can. If there is no path for the current to flow, the _voltage_ increases as the coil attempts to keep current flowing, until something breaks down, like a spark. This is the source of the great "inductive spike" in _voltage_ that happens when the current through a coil is interrupted. This is also why we put reverse-biased diodes across, for example, relay coils to allow the current someplace to go, so the voltage rise doesn't damage something. The diodes are only reverse biased when the coil is powered! When the power is removed, the _voltage_ reverses so the diode is no longer reverse-biased and the _current_ has someplace to go (back into the coil through the diode, always flowing in the same direction as it did when the coil was powered.)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Jeg on March 30, 2017, 07:48:59 PM
Thank you Tinsel, i added above that changing direction is not the right term. It is actually a break to the flaw. While it was increasing, then it suddenly decreased. The question is: For this very brief time interval where current changes from a max value to zero. Will the magnetic poles of the coil reverse or not?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 30, 2017, 07:54:49 PM
No, the coil tries its best to _resist_ changes in the magnetic field. Since the current does not reverse, neither does the polarity of the field produced by the coil.

Now, when a parallel capacitor is added to form a tank circuit, matters are different, as energy is transferred back and forth between the capacitor and the coil during the tank's "ringing".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 30, 2017, 08:24:35 PM
I think what will help people is just to repeat what TK said about the coil changing from being something that is being energized by the battery and storing energy to something that is discharging energy into the LED load.

The flywheel analogy could be enlightening for some people also.  Voltage is equivalent to applying torque to the flywheel.  The voltage has two possible polarities and the torque has two possible directions.  Current is equivalent to the rotational speed of the flywheel. Current can flow in two possible directions and the speed of rotating flywheel can be in two possible directions.

So, what is the flywheel version of TK's simple circuit?

Imagine a large flywheel on a nice ball bearing mount with a smaller-diameter hand grip so a person can spin up the flywheel with their hands.  So in this example, a person applying torque to the flywheel with human muscle power is equivalent to the battery.  So, you spin up the flywheel with your hands for 10 seconds.  Then, you apply disk brakes to the flywheel until the flywheel stops rotating.  That's it.  The disk brakes are equivalent to the LED.  The disk brakes getting hot from friction is the equivalent to the LED emitting light and heat.

Notice that the flywheel always spins in the same direction.  i.e.; the current through the coil always flows in the same direction.

Simple as cake, a piece of pie.

Now, the fun begins.  Especially for our expanded-mind expanded-consciousness real thinkers that are not bound by the mundane limits of a mundane human imagination and existence.  I speak to the free thinkers that are not mere drones indoctrinated by the current mass brainwashing system that guides us through life like so many sheep.

We know that a flywheel is equivalent to a coil.  So what about RESONANCE, when a coil is resonating at its resonant frequency?  How does that relate to a flywheel?

i.e.; The brass pancake flywheel at its resonant frequency.  Mechanical self-resonance!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Jeg on March 30, 2017, 08:27:49 PM
No, the coil tries its best to _resist_ changes in the magnetic field. Since the current does not reverse, neither does the polarity of the field produced by the coil.

Now, when a parallel capacitor is added to form a tank circuit, matters are different, as energy is transferred back and forth between the capacitor and the coil during the tank's "ringing".

Yes capacitor is an other matter.

 Cemf is reaction to change. It always follows magnetic polarity changes right? It always develops it self in a way so to oppose to magnetic field's changes. Now, when we see a change of cemf across our secondary from negatives to positives. Doesn't that imply that for this brief moment where current decreases to zero there was also a magnetic polarity change? If we would place a field sensor watching the flux. Won't we see a change in magnetic polarity when switch opens?  hmm i need a field sensor.   
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 30, 2017, 08:34:06 PM
Quote
it added above that changing direction is not the right term
This is semantic discussion: the current within coil disconnected from circuit behaves like the driver, who realized, he is stirring too right. So he will turn the steering wheel to the left, he will therefore change direction but  he is still stirring to the right at the beginning of his action, just in gradually smaller degree. The important is, his reaction points to the opposite direction than before. In similar way, the collapsing magnetic field will induce the electromotive force of the opposite polarity than the existing current.

With respect to special behavior of bifilar pancake coil this discussion is completely off topic, with respect to overunity subject it's OT even more. We are visiting this forum because of overunity and if we would want to discuss classical physics phenomena, then there are may way more competent forums for it.

Quote
bunch of drivel about how someone should be banned because they don't agree with you
I don't care if someone is agreeing with me - but he should unconditionally agree with possible existence of overunity - or he has nothing to discuss about just in this very forum. If he still discusses and twaddles something, then he is naturally A) off-topic and even B) disruptive to the topic of this forum. Is it really so difficult to understand it? One of reasons why this forum goes to the hell is, because it's flooded with people who are openly hostile to the overunity subject and who systematically changing subject from it. Such a people should be banned from here one after another - or we will not move forward. Me and many others are still visiting this forum in an effort to find ways for overunity development - not for to convince the people about its existence. If I would want to fight with mainstream crackpots about it, then I've many other forums where to go.

Face it or not: this is forum about cats for cat lovers - not about dogs, elephants or even for enemies of cats.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 30, 2017, 08:45:20 PM
Won't we see a change in magnetic polarity when switch opens?  hmm i need a field sensor.

You absolutely will not.  The current through the coil will drop to zero with no discontinuities at all and you will observe the strength of the corresponding magnetic field drop to zero with no discontinuities at all.

It's incredible how tenacious wrong ideas stay with amateur experimenters because of the bad and incorrect ideas put in their heads by various free energy luminaries.  You can work on your bench for years believing the wrong things and do lots of experiments and effectively partially sleepwalk through them consistently being wrong and believing that you are doing great work.  Evostars is talking about a "Bloch wall" and I think that disinformation can be traced back to the late great John Bedini.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 30, 2017, 08:46:47 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vyg0NX0zh4


The problem with you Zephir, is that you are trying to get people to believe you have a cat, when you are talking about your stuffed toy teddy bear.

You are wrong, you have been proven wrong, and your best course is to apologize and admit your errors and move on.

Or, if you think you can provide your own experiment and demonstration to support your fanciful claims, then by all means DO IT. But we already know you can't, or you would have done so by now.


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 30, 2017, 08:51:37 PM
Yes capacitor is an other matter.

 Cemf is reaction to change. It always follows magnetic polarity changes right? It always develops it self in a way so to oppose to magnetic field's changes. Now, when we see a change of cemf across our secondary from negatives to positives. Doesn't that imply that for this brief moment where current decreases to zero there was also a magnetic polarity change? If we would place a field sensor watching the flux. Won't we see a change in magnetic polarity when switch opens?  hmm i need a field sensor.

Direction of current determines polarity of magnetic field, yes? So if current does not reverse,  neither does the magnetic field. How could it be otherwise?

You can use a ratiometric Hall effect sensor like Allegro A1301 or A1321 or similar, they are cheap and easy to work with.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 30, 2017, 08:54:02 PM
If I would want to fight with mainstream crackpots, then I've many other forums where to go.

LOL  You are a Zanti misfit!

Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails
Just call me Lucifer
'Cause I'm in need of some restraint

Pleased to meet you!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 30, 2017, 08:54:45 PM
You absolutely will not.  The current through the coil will drop to zero with no discontinuities at all and you will observe the strength of the corresponding magnetic field drop to zero with no discontinuities at all.


Well, almost. In reality all real circuits will have some stray capacitance so there will be some ringing. You can see this slight ringing in Jeg's scopeshots. But less sensitive instrumentation -- like my LED   ;)   is good enough to show the truth and demonstrate the principle.

(snip)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 30, 2017, 09:08:00 PM


Well, almost. In reality all real circuits will have some stray capacitance so there will be some ringing. You can see this slight ringing in Jeg's scopeshots. But less sensitive instrumentation -- like my LED   ;)   is good enough to show the truth and demonstrate the principle.

(snip)

Agreed, but he is running really fast.  A larger coil and a much slower clock would reduce the ringing to small patches of peach fuzz.  Plus no schematic so who knows what the hell is really going on.  Wherever the current viewing resistor is it looks like it is not seeing the coil current after the switch-off.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 30, 2017, 09:15:20 PM
Quote
the problem with you Zephir, is that you are trying to get people to believe you have a cat, when you are talking about your stuffed toy teddy bear
I never claimed anything about me. It was you, who said, that overunity is impossible. My person is completely irrelevant for this claim. The problem with you is, you're disrupting the topic of this forum with such an attitude.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 30, 2017, 09:16:53 PM
Repost for the alternative Big Thinkers so this doesn't get lost in the shuffle:

We know that a flywheel is equivalent to a coil.  So what about RESONANCE, when a coil is resonating at its resonant frequency?  How does that relate to a flywheel?

i.e.; The brass pancake flywheel at its resonant frequency.

If you really can describe a flywheel self-resonating then what is so special about a coil self-resonating?  But can you do it?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 30, 2017, 09:22:36 PM
Resonance is classical physics phenomena and it doesn't explain overunity (being itself based on energy conservation laws). In general, if you can derive something with using of classical physics models and laws (which disallow overunity), then you can be also sure, it's irrelevant to overunity mechanism. The reason why the resonance is still significant for many overunity circuits  is, it minimizes the impedance of circuit and thus loses of energy in it.  Many overunity effects are depending on amplitude of oscillations, which gets maximized in resonance frequency.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Jeg on March 30, 2017, 09:23:52 PM
Thanks Guys. One more question please.
You said that when switch opens, current continues moving the same direction across the coil and lights the led. Then wouldn't our secondary show a negative value and then a more negative peak? I am referring to the yellow waveform of mine which is the secondary's voltage output. Obviously that is not happening. Why is that? 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 30, 2017, 09:34:02 PM
@Jed Which circuit are you talking about (diagram)? Where the probes have been attached to it?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 30, 2017, 09:43:02 PM
It was you, who said, that overunity is impossible. My person is completely irrelevant for this claim. The problem with you is, you're disrupting the topic of this forum with such an attitude.

I've been a member of this forum for many years and have survived all attempts from people like you to PROVE ME WRONG. The problem with YOU is that you are making false claims and false statements that will mislead people into wasting their time, money and creative juices on dead-end schemes that will never work.

Please post a link to where I have said that "overunity is impossible". You can't do it, because that is another of your false claims. I have certainly said that particular ideas will never result in overunity, and nobody has been able to prove me wrong about that. But we are here discussing YOUR claim, and the claim of others, that current reverses when a coil is disconnected from power.

I'm still waiting for your answer to my little schematic puzzle. How can the LED be flashing if the current reverses, as you have claimed? Do you think I've faked that demonstration? Where is your own demonstration that refutes me? Nowhere, that is where, because you cannot refute real facts.

Actually, it is YOU who are disrupting this forum with your demonstrably false claims and your refusal to learn, along with your refusal to perform and show experiments of your own in support of your claims.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 30, 2017, 09:48:12 PM
Resonance is classical physics phenomena and it doesn't explain overunity (being itself based on energy conservation laws). In general, if you can derive something with using of classical physics models and laws (which disallow overunity), then you can be also sure, it's irrelevant to overunity mechanism. The reason why the resonance is still significant for many overunity circuits  is, it minimizes the impedance of circuit and thus loses of energy in it.  Many overunity effects are depending on amplitude of oscillations, which gets maximized in resonance frequency.

Once again you refer to "overunity circuits" and "overunity effects". But those circuits and effects do not exist. You cannot demonstrate a single Joule of overunity yourself, nor can you point to _genuine_ demonstrations of others that do. The closest anyone can come is to show scope traces like Partzman's, which are still unverified by testing with other methodology.  Go ahead and PROVE ME WRONG with demonstrations and experiments of your own. You cannot.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 30, 2017, 10:27:14 PM
Thanks Guys. One more question please.
You said that when switch opens, current continues moving the same direction across the coil and lights the led. Then wouldn't our secondary show a negative value and then a more negative peak? I am referring to the yellow waveform of mine which is the secondary's voltage output. Obviously that is not happening. Why is that?

For me personally if you want an answer you have to post your schematic, and show where your test probes are, both for the ground leads and the signal leads.  If there is a transformer, then you must indicate the dot convention of the transformer.  Finally, there is obviously a pulse train that is driving your gate input.  You need to include a capture of that pulse train signal along with one of the other two waveforms from your other scope capture so that I can see what the relative timing is like for the pulse train.

You have to understand the mental stress involved in looking at a scope capture and having to envision and reconstruct what you think the circuit might be in your head.  Even a simple circuit can be stressful with multiple unknowns.  That is in contrast to the relative ease in looking at scope captures and comparing them to a clear and properly annotated schematic.  Then you can focus your mind on answering your question, and not on building an imaginary circuit in your head that might be correct or might be incorrect so that it fits what you see in the scope capture.  I am not going to reverse-engineer an unknown circuit in my head to make it fit your scope capture.

Sorry, no proper documentation, no answer.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 30, 2017, 10:51:15 PM
Quote
Once again you refer to "overunity circuits" and "overunity effects". But those circuits and effects do not exist. You cannot demonstrate a single Joule of overunity yourself, nor can you point to _genuine_ demonstrations of others that do. The closest anyone can come is to show scope traces like Partzman's, which are still unverified by testing with other methodology.  Go ahead and PROVE ME WRONG with demonstrations and experiments of your own. You cannot.

This is common strategy and propaganda tactics of all overunity deniers and trolls. The cold fusion and antigravity findings are dismissed with exactly the same strategy for whole century already. BTW Show me, that electron exist with demonstrations and experiments of your own. You cannot.

Quote
I've been a member of this forum for many years and have survived all attempts from people like you to PROVE ME WRONG.

This is suspicious by itself. Prove, that you aren't agent payed with government for spreading of disbelief in overunity.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on March 30, 2017, 11:58:19 PM
Zephir
Being a new guy maybe you have not seen the efforts Tinsel has made over the years to help
builders here.

he gets out the tools and rolls up his sleeves and explores any valid claims which come along. and as of this writing he still offers to do this from time to time ....

In my opinion you waste a valuable opportunity to explore your OU Circuits here ?

I myself have nothing but respect and gratitude for his efforts ,and I must add most here who actually build and share their work [open source]
feel the same way.

having a starting point for a claim is a very good thing , finding a true Anomaly is not possible until you understand what truly is possible !

Regarding Milehigh ,he has a very good grasp on the Box and what fits inside ,this too is very useful .

having limited resources and time ,most men would like to know the outline of the Box ...so as to not waste time on well trodden ground...
a true anomaly is very rare indeed..

no stone left unturned...

respectfully
Chet K




Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 31, 2017, 12:02:43 AM

For the last 10+ years (something special is to be found in taking your sweet ass time....) I have studied every patent granted to Nikola Tesla which has even the slightest relation to the "Coil for Electromagnets".  In none of those documents does one find Tesla describing the current as "spiraling, or compressing inwards".......


Most theories fall short of a practical application, this is not the case with Tesla.  He presents you with an idea, even better than this, he informs us that he has stopped using "physical capacitors", having discovered, and or realized that he could "so construct the coils themselves as to accomplish the same ultimate object."  I find his documents were prepared for the thinking few, not for parrots, nor for the learned.  Ever take note of those weird statements, the ones that make no sense when you "consider" the information which precedes and the information which follows the weird statement?  These points are completely overlooked by the majority. 


Quote: 


"This is due to the mutual relations existing between the special character of the current, and the self induction and capacity of the coil, the latter quantity being just capable of neutralizing the self-induction for that frequency."


What you can take from this is, if you don't have those mutual relations existing between.....you don't have what he wanted you to have.  If your circuit isn't developing the special character of current.....you don't have what he wanted you to have.  If your circuit doesn't have the necessary mutual relations existing between the special character of the current, and self induction and capacity, you don't have what he wanted you to have.  In other words, your bifilar will be about as useful as milk yielding utters on a bull in heat. This is where many find themselves......a confused mess....



A confused mess...... 



The relation that I find Tesla spoke about was 90°.  The bad news if this is about power, and when isn't it about power, 90° relation means what you want is useless because its reactive.....that is the reality of this world....  Why make a useless relation the foundation of your vision.....probably because it wasn't useless....
what do you think this special character of the current is?
I've been using short pulse discharges. with a IGBT. discharging a capacitor, just like tesla used his quenched spark gaps. to produce short energetic burst of discharge.
and it  rotates through the spiral coil. In the process creating a dielectric field between the windings due to the voltage difference.

your statement "confused mess" i find disrespectful, not constructive. But thats in line with alot of other posts here.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 31, 2017, 03:00:23 AM
"This is due to the mutual relations existing between the special character of the current, and the self induction and capacity of the coil, the latter quantity being just capable of neutralizing the self-induction for that frequency."

What you can take from this is, if you don't have those mutual relations existing between.....you don't have what he wanted you to have.  If your circuit isn't developing the special character of current.....you don't have what he wanted you to have.  If your circuit doesn't have the necessary mutual relations existing between the special character of the current, and self induction and capacity, you don't have what he wanted you to have.  In other words, your bifilar will be about as useful as milk yielding utters on a bull in heat. This is where many find themselves......a confused mess....

There is nothing to be read in between the lines with respect to the "special" character of the current.  Tesla knew full well that his coil current was not manifesting a 90 degree phase lag like it should have done if an inductor was the load.  He also knew that it was not leading by 90 degrees like if a capacitor was the load.  So he had a coil where the excitation voltage and the resulting current where in phase, which merited the term "special."  There was a exchange of electric field energy and magnetic field energy in his coil such that when you viewed it across the two terminals at the right excitation frequency it looked like an ordinary resistive piece of wire.  In the context of the times, that was "special."  Beyond that, there is nothing else to read into what Tesla was saying and he was not hinting at something extraordinary that you are supposed to link with other "mysterious phrases" in other documents to discover the "hidden secret" that he put in his documents like some puzzle to "protect himself from the Powers That Be."
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 31, 2017, 03:29:16 AM
what do you think this special character of the current is?
I've been using short pulse discharges. with a IGBT. discharging a capacitor, just like tesla used his quenched spark gaps. to produce short energetic burst of discharge.
and it  rotates through the spiral coil. In the process creating a dielectric field between the windings due to the voltage difference.

There is nothing special about the "special" current.  Or you can say the fact that the current is in phase with the voltage makes it special because that is not "supposed" to happen.

So I take it that the IGBT momentarily connects a large capacitor charged to a certain voltage to the pancake coil for a brief instant and then the IGBT switches off and then the pancake coil is effectively isolated again and rings down.  I assume that the ring-down event could be observed with a scope probe across the coil.

Yes, you set up a "dielectric field" between the windings that might store a few microjoules of "dielectric energy" in the coil.  During the short pulse when the IGBT is on you will also induce some current to flow through the coil and perhaps that will store of few tens of microjoules of magnetic energy.

Note:  There is a very good chance that the majority of the few tens of microjoules of stored magnetic energy actually burns off inside the IGBT during the event time of the IGBT switch-off.

Then when the IGBT switches off the pancake coil has a short epileptic seizure where the few microjoules of transient capacitive energy and the (possibly) few tens of microjoules of inductive energy bounce around inside the pancake coil and burn off in a combination of resistive dissipative energy and EM radiation energy.  The energy bounces back and forth within the physical form of the coil which would only be a fun thing to investigate for some finite element modeling junkie to crunch down at a fine granularity.  He or she could power up 10 octa-core PC boxes for two weeks and show you a really cool video clip after the big crunch-down.

Alternatively a lay person like yourself can see what is presumably a tiny ring-down with your scope event trigger.   And if you put an AM radio next to the pancake coil you might hear a tiny "tick" telling you that the epileptic seizure just took place and the pancake coil broadcast that event out into the Universe.

And then you can put on Peggy Lee and listen to "Is That All There Is?"

And this entire event can be quite accurately modeled with a flywheel.

Oops, gotta go, the phone in my shoe is ringing...
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 31, 2017, 05:49:19 AM
This is common strategy and propaganda tactics of all overunity deniers and trolls. The cold fusion and antigravity findings are dismissed with exactly the same strategy for whole century already. BTW Show me, that electron exist with demonstrations and experiments of your own. You cannot.
No "antigravity" device has ever been shown to be real, and I've tested quite a few of them myself, and have even saved at least one big investor millions of dollars by pointing out AND PROVING that he was being scammed by the people who presented a fake one to him.  The "cold fusion" story is still not finished, but certainly there are scammers and frauds in that area too, Andrea Rossi being the foremost one at the moment. As far as the existence of electrons goes... you are proving it yourself by using a computer. Do you think the people who designed your computer deny the existence of electrons? Do you think CRTs and electron-beam lithography work in spite of the designers' "wrong" belief in electrons? You have passed right through folly and have made it all the way to comedy now. You get a ROFL for this! And of course I can perform my own demonstrations and experiments that prove the existence of electrons. I still have CRT oscilloscopes after all. And I use devices manufactured by EBL all the time... and so do you! ROFL!

"dismissed with exactly the same strategy".... that strategy being a simple demand for solid experimental PROOF !!

Quote



This is suspicious by itself. Prove, that you aren't agent payed with government for spreading of disbelief in overunity.


Now you are showing your paranoia, which is a mental disease. You are making the claim, it is up to YOU to prove it.  Prove that I am some kind of government paid agent!

Besides, my paycheck seems to be late this month.   

You do realize that you are a troll, I hope.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 31, 2017, 06:01:29 AM
(snip)

You have to understand the mental stress involved in looking at a scope capture and having to envision and reconstruct what you think the circuit might be in your head.  Even a simple circuit can be stressful with multiple unknowns.
 
(snip)


Here you go, MH, observe and relax.    ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTPfRMe1Fs0
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 31, 2017, 06:10:26 AM
Here you go, MH, observe and relax.    ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTPfRMe1Fs0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTPfRMe1Fs0)

You have heard of xes on a phone?  That's the closest thing I have seen to xes on a scope!

Meanwhile, the Fifth Column does other dirty things on a phone!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 31, 2017, 09:10:33 AM
 the tiny little sine ringing after the pulse,  is the resonant frequency of the bifilar pancake coil.
if pulsed at the frequencyof that ringing the voltage rises, it becomes a continuous sine.
with a lot more energy than a few micro joules.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 31, 2017, 11:03:13 AM
the tiny little sine ringing after the pulse,  is the resonant frequency of the bifilar pancake coil.
if pulsed at the frequencyof that ringing the voltage rises, it becomes a continuous sine.
with a lot more energy than a few micro joules.

That's great that you can observe a ring-down with a single pulse from the IGBT.  That's what's known as the "impulse response" from the coil and and that tells you nearly everything you need to know about the coil.  Yes you are going to get a resonant rise in the response from the coil if you hit it with a series of impulses at the self-resonant frequency of the coil, but that's not really giving you any new information.

My recommendation would be to then take your signal generator and "tickle" the coil at the self resonant frequency to find out if the pancake coil is resonating as a series or as a parallel LC resonator.  You absolutely don't need to drive the coil with the 50-ohm output from the signal generator.  I would suggest putting a 200-ohm resistor in series with the signal from the generator, and then try a 500-ohm resistor in series.  Naturally the signal generator has to be set on a sine wave.

You use the 200-ohm resistor (or the 500-ohm resistor) as a current viewing resistor.  So will there be a lot of current flowing through the signal feed to the coil at resonance or will there be almost no current flowing through the signal feed to the coil at resonance?  That is the big question of the hour.

So, if you really wanted to look at the voltage across the in-line resistor then one option is either your signal generator needs to be isolated from the mains or your scope needs to be isolated from the mains.  If you don't have a mains isolation transformer there are many other ways around that issue.  Any thoughts?  For example, who says that you have to isolate the signal generator itself?  Why not just isolate the signal from the signal generator itself and then the 200-ohm resistor and the coil itself will be isolated.

If you do the test and you see current flowing through the signal line at resonance then you should see almost no voltage across the coil itself.  Or if you see almost no current flowing through the signal line you should see a voltage across the coil itself that is the same as the signal generator voltage.  When you first do the test you only want to look at the voltage across the 200-ohm resistor.  You do not want to put a scope probe across the coil itself because that is disturbing the coil.

If you can figure out your isolation issues then the logical test to do is a full frequency sweep to see what's going on.  You may find different resonant modes at different frequencies.  If your setup is working smoothly, you might want to do a sweep with a 1K-ohm series resistor.

This is all an interesting investigation and could be a great example for other bifilar pancake coil enthusiasts.  I don't know if you have the the experience and the bench skills to do all of this.

A disclaimer is that I am just applying my knowledge from way back when and I have never done a test like this.  Somebody else may correct me or suggest something completely different.

Finally, here is what you don't want to hear because of all of the musings that you have been reading from the various players in the free energy cottage industry that have convinced you that "there is another way" and that you know better after reading all of that stuff.  What you don't want to hear is that the magnetic field generated by your series bifilar pancake coil just stores electrical energy in the 3D volume around the coil by stressing the space with a subtended magnetic field.  There is a big "ho hum" from a lot of people about that fact.  If you notice, essentially all of my comments have ignored the magnetic field and I turn slightly green when you talk about the "spirals" and the "vorticies."  The simple fact is that you can analyze the coil without even thinking about the magnetic field at all assuming there are no magnetic field coupling effects in the testing.

So, if we suppose that you find what the resonant mode for the coil is at the observed self-resonant frequency from your impulse testing, and then you do the full frequency sweep to look for any other resonant modes, then where do you go from there?  Or is it a big secret?

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 31, 2017, 11:33:18 AM
Quote
No "antigravity" device has ever been shown to be real, and I've tested quite a few of them myself
And what? I tested the existence of electrons multiple-times - and I never detected any with my devices. This is supposed to serve as an argument?

List of experimental EMDrive results (http://emdrive.wiki/Experimental_Results)

Quote
You are making the claim, it is up to YOU to prove it.
Prove that overunity and antigravity doesn't exist. It's your claim, it is up to YOU to prove it.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Searcher1o1 on March 31, 2017, 02:12:31 PM
Why would the circuit be off topic, you need a circuit to run your bifilar coil.
Expand the circuit, stage it up add phases.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 31, 2017, 02:33:53 PM
And what? I tested the existence of electrons multiple-times - and I never detected any with my devices. This is supposed to serve as an argument?


You continue to demonstrate your ignorance and  incompetence. When will you tire of this? You are communicating with me on a device that DEPENDS on the existence of electrons for its operation and even for the very fabrication of its component parts. And without you posting the details of your "devices" and your "tests" it is of course impossible to evaluate your claims except to point out that they are contrary to hundreds of years of experimentation and engineering by thousands of real scientists and engineers. Frankly I doubt that you have any competence in these matters. Feel free to PROVE ME WRONG by showing your work.

Have you ever heard of the Electron Microscope? How about Electron Spin Resonance Spectroscopy? Electron Beam Lithography? Electron Beam Welding? How about Cathode Ray Tubes ffs? If you do not think electrons exist you have a big hill to climb, explaining how these devices and many others "actually" work according to your conjectures (which do not even rise to the level of "theory".)

Quote

List of experimental EMDrive results (http://emdrive.wiki/Experimental_Results)
Prove that overunity and antigravity doesn't exist. It's your claim, it is up to YOU to prove it.


And now you are demonstrating that you will sacrifice logical and critical thinking in order to continue to troll me. No, it is the claimants who claim things contrary to known physics, like yourself, who have the burden of proof, and at some level you actually do know this. But it is more important for you to try to put me down, so you sacrifice your own personal integrity to do so. WITHOUT EVER PROVIDING EVIDENCE of your own!

By the way, there are far more negative and null results from the EMdrive experimentation than there are positive results. In addition, as the researchers like Sonny White and Paul March refine their experiments and gain expertise in performing them, the magnitude of "positive" results continues to get smaller and smaller. Of course you will choose to ignore results that do not conform to your conjectures and you will ignore the implications of results that tend to vanish into the noise floor as experimental technique is refined.

You've been soundly refuted already and you have nothing to say about that, except to try to weasel out of what your original claim actually was. Maybe you would be happier posting your nonsense at Energetic Forum, where "trolls", that is, critical thinkers and experimenters like me, are much more strongly discouraged than we are here.

After all, there have been dozens of "free energy" devices built and talked about there. My favorite one is the "Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machine" of UFOPolitics -- which produces so much free energy that he is running his home and shop on it. No... wait.... that's wrong, he isn't, he's still connected to his local grid and is still paying for his juice. After hundreds of pages of thread and after suckering dozens of people into "replicating" his machines, he has gone on to other things and nobody, but nobody, has ever made a single excess Joule of energy from their efforts. But they have wasted untold hours, untold dollars and untold energy trying. Maybe you could help them out.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 31, 2017, 02:40:12 PM
Why would the circuit be off topic, you need a circuit to run your bifilar coil.
Expand the circuit, stage it up add phases.

Do you believe that using a flat Tesla Bifilar wound coil would produce a different result? Do you think my demonstration is somehow in error? Go ahead and demonstrate it yourself then. 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on March 31, 2017, 02:45:33 PM
Zephir
thank you for the very nice page

http://emdrive.wiki/Experimental_Results

I honestly believe you have missed the point here ,I don't believe for one instant that fellows posting here
ALL fellows ...don't believe in the potential of new sources of energy harvesting


if someone walked in the door tomorrow still smoking and holding a fried/burnt umbrella ,with a Claim
" I finally figured it out ...I can call the lightning at will. 24/7 anywhere on earth from a clear blue sky "

that would be plausible ...if he started to levitate while he summoned exotic static charges ?
also plausible...

here a man should run towards scrutiny when he has a claim, not shun it.

unfortunately it seems when fellows make discoveries they run to lawyers ...and the Gov't mouse traps [patent office]

a patent ??
never hand a man a stick to beat you with



Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 31, 2017, 02:56:19 PM
Glendower:
 I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur:
 Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them?
Glendower:
 Why, I can teach you, cousin, to command
 The devil
Hotspur:
 And I can teach thee, coz, to shame the devil—
 By telling the truth. Tell truth and shame the devil.

 William Shakespeare, Henry The Fourth, Part I Act 3, scene 1, 52–58 (https://www.owleyes.org/text/henry-4-part-1/read/act-iii-scene-1/root-71806-17/81025)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 31, 2017, 02:59:38 PM
Did you miss this, Ramset?

Quote
By the way, there are far more negative and null results from the EMdrive experimentation than there are positive results. In addition, as the researchers like Sonny White and Paul March refine their experiments and gain expertise in performing them, the magnitude of "positive" results continues to get smaller and smaller. Of course you will choose to ignore results that do not conform to your conjectures and you will ignore the implications of results that tend to vanish into the noise floor as experimental technique is refined.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on March 31, 2017, 03:06:03 PM
Tinsel
every journey starts with a step ,surely the pioneers in all these fields are looking under every stone .

You mentioned electron beam microscopes ...few years back we had a project where we were looking to buy one
seemed every scope on the planet was up for sale on EBay [tons in south Korea]
they had all become obsolete ...

turns out the guys who can see the most [tiniest] have the biggest edge ,and the guys who can't should stay home until they can.

the ever smaller world we work in ..."nano" is going to rewrite the books.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 31, 2017, 03:20:18 PM
Tinsel
every journey starts with a step ,surely the pioneers in all these fields are looking under every stone .

You mentioned electron beam microscopes ...few years back we had a project where we were looking to buy one
seemed every scope on the planet was up for sale on EBay [tons in south Korea]
they had all become obsolete ...

turns out the guys who can see the most [tiniest] have the biggest edge ,and the guys who can't should stay home until they can.

the ever smaller world we work in ..."nano" is going to rewrite the books.

Yes, I can believe that. At the place where I used to work-- you know where-- we had not one but TWO electron microscopes, one ancient SEM and one more modern TEM, and I learned how to operate both of them. The TEM, worth about 600,000 dollars on the surplus market, was actually _given_ to the lab by its former owner, a researcher at one of the national research universities there. When the researcher went on to other things, the University needed the space and so gave the TEM to whomever could come and extract it from the basement room and cart it away. So we did. And reassembled it in our lab and got it working again. Actually the TEM itself was installed in one room and its giant power supply, vacuum pumps and air compressors (for pneumatic valves) were installed in the next room, with cabling and hoses run through the walls. It is still in use today. I think the SEM is mostly used for electron beam spectroscopy these days to confirm the composition of exotic ceramics.

The ones you saw on the surplus market were of course replaced with more modern, more capable Electron Microscope instruments at their former homes.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 31, 2017, 03:29:15 PM
Wow, a mysterious brown envelope appeared at my door this morning with no markings on it at all.  I am attaching a photo of the contents of the envelope here.

Will a large-signal measurement of the inductance of a bifilar pancake coil be different from a small-signal measurement of the inductance of a bifilar pancake coil?

I bet you they would be different!

EDIT:  I had to edit everything and change "capacitance" to "inductance."  It must be the the psychic energy beams from Planet Zanti that were trying to throw me off the trail!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 31, 2017, 06:53:50 PM
Your opinion has been noted and added to my file 13.

Yeah, sure.  Your trip whenever you talk about Tesla or some circuit is to scold people about some supposed amazing profound significance that they have to go into deep deep contemplation to *truly* understand.  "Tesla laid out the bread crumbs for you, you just have to follow them and discover for yourself what the significance *really* is."  I have read that one too many times from you.  That's why I gave you that extended little treatise.  Your pitch is a variation on the masochist scolding that you hear from all sorts of free energy enthusiasts about clips of supposed free energy circuits that you see on YouTube.  They always say, "The inventor is NOT supposed to share his work with you!  You are supposed to take still frames from his clip and talk about them and try to reverse-engineer what you see for the next nine months!  Don't you know it's supposed to be that way?"

Going back to the "special current," things aren't always so deep and so profound that you need to sit like Buddha for 40 days and contemplate your scope traces.  So there is indeed nothing of note that is out of the ordinary with the term "special" with respect to the currents in the bifilar pancake coil.  There is no "deeper level of understanding" that can only be gained though deep thought.  If you want to go into contemplation about the word "special" for the next two years, that's your choice.

So you shouldn't throw what I said in the trash bin.  TK said the geometry for the pancake coil helps with avoiding high-voltage arcing when playing with Tesla coils.  But who really needs a Tesla coil?  At this point in time they are novelty items, there is a clip on YouTube where two Tesla coils play Sweet Home Alabama with stereo modulated high-voltage lightning bolts.  It's a big hit at bar mitzvahs.

That Tesla patent for the bifilar pancake coil has its own cult of personality.  It attracts all sorts of attention and thousands of amateur experimenters make pancake coils and play with them.  There is no elusive pot of gold.  It's just a coil.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Jeg on March 31, 2017, 08:52:26 PM
  There is no elusive pot of gold.  It's just a coil.

No it's not. It has the right geometry for displacement currents to be developed. I wonder how you missed that.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 31, 2017, 09:16:35 PM
No it's not. It has the right geometry for displacement currents to be developed. I wonder how you missed that.

The problem with your statement is you are not saying what is so special about displacement currents.  What advantage or application does this geometry give you that supports displacement currents between the wires of the coil that might store a few microjoules of energy?

As TK said, you can put a capacitor in series or in parallel with a coil and then you can have your displacement currents very easily.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 31, 2017, 09:18:13 PM

Not a fan of file 13 eh....

no prob..... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcmiWxCu8So (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcmiWxCu8So)

Wow you are so smooth but I notice that you are completely mute on the technical aspects.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 31, 2017, 09:18:22 PM
Quote
I don't believe for one instant that fellows posting here ALL fellows ...don't believe in the potential of new sources of energy harvesting
This is an appeal to ridicule (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule), I didn't say it. The patoskeptics are just leading this forum in number of posts per person.

Quote
there are far more negative and null results from the EMdrive experimentation than there are positive results

Prove it - most of results in this lists are positive, instead (http://emdrive.wiki/Experimental_Results). BTW The yield of complex microprocessors is bellow 50% - should this serve an evidence, that these processors don't exist, according to you?

Quote
after hundreds of pages of thread and after suckering dozens of people into "replicating" his machines, he has gone on to other things and nobody
Because of disruptive agenda of trolls like TinselKoala or MileHigh. The guys who were sucessfull with overunity don't visit this forum because of them.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 31, 2017, 09:28:38 PM
This is an appeal to ridicule (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule), I didn't say it. The patoskeptics are just leading this forum in number of posts per person.

On this thread we are not debating free energy.  We are just discussing a pancake coil.  Can't you discuss within that framework?  I suggested a procedure to Evostars for doing a frequency sweep of his coil.  That's an example of something on topic.

And stop calling people trolls.  I am contributing to this thread and I am on topic.

Feel free to start your own thread where you seem to be claiming that you can demonstrate over unity with a pancake coil.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Jeg on March 31, 2017, 10:06:50 PM
The problem with your statement is you are not saying what is so special about displacement currents.  What advantage or application does this geometry give you that supports displacement currents between the wires of the coil that might store a few microjoules of energy?


Their specialty is described very well by the inventor. They make a so intense electric field between adjacent turns that solenoids cannot reach. Pancake geometry helps in that displacement current moves perpendicular to the flux movement, like what happens between two normal plates of metal forming a cap. Many applications depending on what you want to do. An interesting application would be to use it for a controlled spark gap. Like here back in 2014
http://overunity.com/14198/a-method-for-static-gap-control-for-high-bps-rates/msg382802/#msg382802

(I have abandoned this toy as it was using MOT's and was very dangerous to control it and play with safety. Don't recommend. Video is very blurry and sound lags some seconds )   
 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 31, 2017, 10:07:39 PM
This is an appeal to ridicule (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule), I didn't say it. The patoskeptics are just leading this forum in number of posts per person.

You have no idea what you are talking about. I have a lot of posts for several reasons. Number one is that I have been a member of this forum for many years. Number two is that I engaged the notorious Rosemary Ainslie over several threads that went on for years until she was very definitively proved to be wrong and indeed to have falsified data in a long series of streamed video experimentation by her own team and led by Poynt99 and the late MarkE. Number three is because I've helped many people, just as Cifta has done, to get their various projects working, notably Joule Thiefs and Bedini motors, and along with MileHigh we developed and discussed the "better than Bedini" MHOP. What have you done? Nothing, that's what, mister Newbie. I'm proud of my post count. Yes, I point out errors when I see them, and your posts are full of errors, which you won't acknowledge even when you are soundly proven wrong. As we have demonstrated over the last couple of days.

Quote
Prove it - most of results in this lists are positive, instead (http://emdrive.wiki/Experimental_Results). BTW The yield of complex microprocessors is bellow 50% - should this serve an evidence, that these processors don't exist, according to you?


Do you know what a "straw man argument" is? Look it up. It is a wellknown logical fallacy used by people who have no rational argument. Your mention of the yield of microprocessors is a STRAW MAN and is irrelevant to the FACT that your wiki list simply does not include many failed EMdrive experiments. Did YOU write that wiki article?

Quote
Because of disruptive agenda of trolls like TinselKoala or MileHigh. The guys who were sucessfull with overunity don't visit this forum because of them.

Here you are referring to the comment about UFOPolitics and his "Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machine". Again, your claim here is not true at all. Go and read that enormous thread at EF. Here's a link to his claim of OVERUNITY GALORE:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/11885-my-asymmetric-electrodynamic-machines-95.html#post218245 (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/11885-my-asymmetric-electrodynamic-machines-95.html#post218245)
Note the date. Note that there are in fact _very few_ disbelievers posting, and neither I nor MH have ever posted there. Much later the believers start to discover that there is no "overunity galore" and in fact no overunity at all, but just a bunch of failed NTE mosfets, badly produced motor parts and burned out components. Along with a bunch of nicely done graphics of motors that in the end do not produce a single extra Joule of energy and are in fact quite INEFFICIENT.

And there are no "guys who were successful with overunity" posting here or there. There are many claimants, and there are some tantalizing preliminary results from genuine and honest researchers like Partzman, but they are all still buying their electricity from the grid, just like you, and no one has credibly demonstrated any self runner or daisychained device. If you think they have... what are YOU doing here then?

You have earned yourself another ROFL.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 31, 2017, 10:14:06 PM

Speaking your language empowers you....  Me no speak " (your brand of) technical aspects...." STARVE!

Right, and here is the ambrosia that has been eluding you all this time as well as for 95% of the amateur experimenters that play with coils for years:

A coil integrates on voltage with respect to time to yield a current flow through the coil.  The amount of current flow is also inversely proportional to the inductance of the coil.  A coil differentiates on the current flowing through the coil with respect to time to yield an opposing voltage to the change in current flow.  The amount of voltage is also proportional to the inductance of the coil.

There is your food, yet you no speak that.  Without undertaking to try to understand those four sentences you continue to starve.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 31, 2017, 10:51:05 PM
Their specialty is described very well by the inventor. They make a so intense electric field between adjacent turns that solenoids cannot reach. Pancake geometry helps in that displacement current moves perpendicular to the flux movement, like what happens between two normal plates of metal forming a cap. Many applications depending on what you want to do. An interesting application would be to use it for a controlled spark gap. Like here back in 2014
http://overunity.com/14198/a-method-for-static-gap-control-for-high-bps-rates/msg382802/#msg382802 (http://overunity.com/14198/a-method-for-static-gap-control-for-high-bps-rates/msg382802/#msg382802)

(I have abandoned this toy as it was using MOT's and was very dangerous to control it and play with safety. Don't recommend. Video is very blurry and sound lags some seconds )

As TK said in the modern era we use capacitors.  Think about this:  You are fascinated by the fact that a bifilar pancake coil can store energy between the adjacent turns of the coil.  Say that there is 50 volts between turns and there are 10 turns.  Well, you can put a 500-volt capacitor across an entire conventional solenoid coil and get the same results.

To put it another way, you can replace a bifilar pancake coil with a regular solenoid coil in parallel or in series with a very small high-voltage capacitor.

Yes, there may be some spark-gap applications for bifilar pancake coils like you are discussing.  That is perfectly valid.  But those are more mechanical issues than electrical issues.   Let's play a "black box" game.  Suppose you put a bifilar pancake coil inside a black box and the only thing you see are the two terminals for the coil on the outside of the black box.  When you test those terminals you will say that you observed that there was a property of inductance telling you that there was an inductor inside the box.  You also were able to observe a self-resonant frequency for the coil indicating that it possessed some inherent capacitance.  That is all fine and good.  However, on a fundamental level, all that you really observed was that there was an imperfect real-world coil inside the black box.  The fact that it was a bifilar pancake coil made no difference to you.  In that sense there is nothing special about a bifilar pancake coil.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 31, 2017, 11:00:23 PM
I have absolutely no interest in your memorized perspective.  You would be as smart as the folk you plagiarize, if only you could pick up where they left off.....  No....all anyone gets from you is a fucking playback.....  I can read.....  What you claim to know, anyone can know.  What you try to drill into the heads of those you consider less than yourself, can be found in countless books, and web pages.  I don't want nor need a lesson from you, the net is a much better instructor, can't say I miss the god complex when doing a google search........

ambrosia....give me a fucking break..... more like Grape nuts..... thats right, I equate what you give to a box of (stale) dry shit.....

You are oblivious regarding what I know, but you have my permission to continue thinking you aren't....

It's not about memorizing the knowledge or reciting it like a book playback.  It's about understanding it and applying it, and that includes in real life on your bench.  Don't play strawman on me please.  Relative to what goes on around here, understanding how a mysterious coil works is ambrosia.

If you want to be the anti or alternative knowledge rebel, that's your prerogative.  But when someone is discussing their circuit often it really is a nuts and bolts kind of thing and not an exploration into semantics and intangibles
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 31, 2017, 11:38:51 PM
Quote
You are fascinated by the fact that a bifilar pancake coil can store energy between the adjacent turns of the coil.  Say that there is 50 volts between turns and there are 10 turns.  Well, you can put a 500-volt capacitor across an entire conventional solenoid coil and get the same results. To put it another way, you can replace a bifilar pancake coil with a regular solenoid coil in parallel or in series with a very small high-voltage capacitor.


The distributed impedance works very differently than the discrete one in HF circuits. It leads for example into so-called metamaterial behavior of circuits, which simply has no analogy in classical circuits - so it's a source of a new quality. The distributed capacity isn't the source of bifilar coil overunity though - in the same way, like any other capacity (or resonance) by itself. Once something can be described with classical law (which are energy conservation based), then it also doesn't lead to overunity. But the distributed impedance is undoubtedly more close to overunity, than the discrete one just because of its new emergent quality.

You cannot replicate the Akula / Kapanadze devices simply by wiring their coils according to diagram: their geometry, orientation and size are also important. But you're person willing to say, that it even doesn't matter, if some coil is bifilar or just normal one with some capacitor attached. With such way of thinking you're literally wasted for the whole overunity thing. Now we can only discuss, if this way of thinking is the product of your ignorance or just evil intentions to confuse and systematically mislead the readers of this forum.

Quote
On this thread we are not debating free energy.  We are just discussing a pancake coil.  Can't you discuss within that framework?
Nope, because this forum is about overunity. If you want to understand overunity, you should remain focused to subject instead of distracted with classical aspects of electronics. I'm just explaining you, why you never succeed with overunity experiments: you're systematically focused just to the aspects of classical circuits, which prohibits you to understand it. The sentence of yours, that "you can replace the distributed impedance with discrete one" illustrates clearly your problem with thinking.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 01, 2017, 12:30:42 AM
Zephir
If you can highlight a Pancake coil experiment which shows a true anomaly

we can probably get quality replicators lined up out the door...

Please post one ??

respectfully
Chet K

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 01, 2017, 02:36:00 AM
The distributed impedance works very differently than the discrete one in HF circuits. It leads for example into so-called metamaterial behavior of circuits, which simply has no analogy in classical circuits - so it's a source of a new quality.

You really are a hoot.  Just like some well known people have claimed that giant pulse motors work differently in the Southern Hemisphere as compared to the Northern Hemisphere.

I will just restate that you are welcome to start your own thread and just do it.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 01, 2017, 03:38:39 AM
OK Zephir you have made several ridiculous claims in this thread with absolutely nothing to back up those claims.  But let's try to have just a little bit of a discussion.  In your own words what does distributed impedence mean?  What do you consider a HF circuit to be?  And lastly, what the heck is metamaterial behavior?

If you can't describe what those things mean to you then you need to take a hike far far away because if you can't explain what they mean to you then you are just here being a troll and hindering those that are actually trying to learn.  Chet has asked for an example of an anomaly that you think indicates OU.  I am asking for you to give some kind of sense to the words you are using.  It is time to man up and either admit you don't have any thing but a bunch of words or back those words up.

And you have never answered the question asked by some of us about your claim there are no such thing as electrons.  If they don't exist then explain how an electron beam welder can weld.  Do you even know what an electron beam welder is without looking it up?  How can a CRT screen show pictures if there are no electrons energizing the phosphor dots?  How can those things work if electrons don't exist?  I am really looking forward to that explanation since I have worked on both of them for many years.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 01, 2017, 04:19:25 AM
TK:

This is an off-topic but techie clip that I think is going to blow your mind!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_S9YsD9Y0c

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Searcher1o1 on April 01, 2017, 04:36:00 AM
Quote
       own team and led by Poynt99 and the late MarkE   
TK what happened to Mark
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 01, 2017, 05:36:20 AM
TK what happened to Mark

Sadly, he died, suddenly and unexpectedly. No, I don't know just how, perhaps heart attack. Just days after his last post here.
He was a good friend and one of the top 5 EEs in his field in the world. We were very lucky to have him here on this forum. RIP.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 01, 2017, 05:41:18 AM
TK:

This is an off-topic but techie clip that I think is going to blow your mind!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_S9YsD9Y0c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_S9YsD9Y0c)

MileHigh

Heh... yes, Dave is a hoot all right. I watch his videos regularly and am a member of the forum.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 01, 2017, 09:12:58 AM
Carrol
RE The request to Zephir

just an artifact or anomaly ,doesn't have to be OU at all. [would be nice tho...

thx
Chet

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 01, 2017, 10:33:11 AM
Quote
what does distributed impedance mean
See distributed element model (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_element_model), simulation (http://www.falstad.com/circuit/e-tlstand.html) illustrates, that its behavior cannot be replaced with simple discrete circuit.
Quote
HF circuit to be
High Frequency circuit, of course. Metamaterial circuits (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-ring_resonator) enable the propagation of waves faster than EM wave (http://i.imgur.com/Z0poIJV.gif) inside them and/or against their source - and this is the point, in which the things become interesting for overunity, as they violate the causality of common electromagnetic circuits. These things are commonly known in scientific circles, but until you don't know about them, then you're in position of tribesmen (http://www.scout.com/college/marshall/forums/4634-the-bull-sheet-2-0/15337071-the-cargo-cult), who are constructing airplanes and jeeps out of palm fronds and bamboo, because they believe, they will bring them cargo and food.
Quote
And you have never answered the question asked by some of us about your claim there are no such thing as electrons.
This was just an counterplea of dumb TinselKoala argumentation, who has said, that overunity doesn't exist, because he never observed it during his experiments. So I did say, with the same logic the electrons also don't exist, because I also never observed them during my experiments.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 01, 2017, 01:05:52 PM
See distributed element model (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_element_model), simulation (http://www.falstad.com/circuit/e-tlstand.html) illustrates, that its behavior cannot be replaced with simple discrete circuit.High Frequency circuit, of course. Metamaterial circuits (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-ring_resonator) enable the propagation of waves faster than EM wave (http://i.imgur.com/Z0poIJV.gif) inside them and/or against their source - and this is the point, in which the things become interesting for overunity, as they violate the causality of common electromagnetic circuits. These things are commonly known in scientific circles, but until you don't know about them, then you're in position of tribesmen (http://www.scout.com/college/marshall/forums/4634-the-bull-sheet-2-0/15337071-the-cargo-cult), who are constructing airplanes and jeeps out of palm fronds and bamboo, because they believe, they will bring them cargo and food.

Eventually people are going to get bored with your fantasy talk.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 01, 2017, 01:11:18 PM

When dealing with a subject of such import, why would any self respecting researcher limit him/herself to the limited perspective of the learned.....  Alternative Big Thinkers.....  same question, however, replace the flywheel with a gyroscope.  The learned in their infinite wisdom direct our building apparatus in which the true forces are literally grounded...  The man, in his heyday, recognized this and changed gears, deciding to design, construct and operate linear actuators which produced and transmitted the same forces in a completely different and more effective and useful manner.  Those forces which we put to use are but a reflection of those which are for lack of a better way of putting it, "transmitted into the ground".......

Folk...police yourselves....do your homework before you bring your ideas to the attention of those who will shit on your dreams.

More pie-in-the-sky talk.  My question goes directly to the issue of the understanding of a self-resonating coil and how it works and you throw pies at the sky.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 01, 2017, 01:25:07 PM
Is the capacitance and the inductance of the Bifilar pancake coil, parallel or series?

A LC circuit with capacitors and inductors, can be made in parallel or series. This has influence on the impedance at its resonant frequency.
 
But the bifilar pancake coil is a capacitor and inductor, at the same time, in the same space. So it is ONE. it cant be series, and it cant be parallel.

With a capacitor inductor L/C circuit, the dielectric field is stored in a different place (the capacitor), than where the magnetic field (the inductor) is stored.
With the fields divided, we can make them series or parallel, because they are separated in space.

But in a bifilar coil, the fields are generated from within the same space. the dielectric, resides inside the magnetic field, as both are produced from the same bifilar windings.
Therefor, it is ONE.

This resembles a magnet, which has a magnetic field, with inside it the dielectric field (bloch wall).
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: web000x on April 01, 2017, 02:34:38 PM
Is the capacitance and the inductance of the Bifilar pancake coil, parallel or series?

A LC circuit with capacitors and inductors, can be made in parallel or series. This has influence on the impedance at its resonant frequency.
 
But the bifilar pancake coil is a capacitor and inductor, at the same time, in the same space. So it is ONE. it cant be series, and it cant be parallel.

With a capacitor inductor L/C circuit, the dielectric field is stored in a different place (the capacitor), than where the magnetic field (the inductor) is stored.
With the fields divided, we can make them series or parallel, because they are separated in space.

But in a bifilar coil, the fields are generated from within the same space. the dielectric, resides inside the magnetic field, as both are produced from the same bifilar windings.
Therefor, it is ONE.

This resembles a magnet, which has a magnetic field, with inside it the dielectric field (bloch wall).


I think that in the coil you have distributed impedances that allow for a complex form of propagation.  Look up the stuff that Eric Dollard has explained about TEM vs LMD probagation, LC vs MK.  The dielectric and magnetic components haven't turned into one.  They have just been reduced to existing within the coil structure so that they 'appear' to be one to the observer.  His Theory of Wireless Power (http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Eric_Dollard_Document_Collection/Theory%20of%20Wireless%20Power%20by%20Eric%20Dollard_OCR.pdf) book has some good diagrams highlighting this complete propagation, pg35 - Fig 1.


Dave
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 01, 2017, 02:42:23 PM
This was just an counterplea of dumb TinselKoala argumentation, who has said, that overunity doesn't exist, because he never observed it during his experiments. So I did say, with the same logic the electrons also don't exist, because I also never observed them during my experiments.

Now you have descended past folly and comedy and into outright mendacity and utter ignorance. And you admit to using straw-man arguments once again! Do you have no integrity at all? It must be very painful to be you, so insecure in your faulty world-view that you cannot even face your own errors and admit them like a person with self-respect and honesty.

As you well know, there is _plenty_ of evidence that electrons do exist and people have been engineering with them for decades and even centuries. Whether or not YOU have "observed them during your experiments" has nothing to do with the FACT that electrons have been proven to exist and are used in all kinds of devices every day.  This is very different from the case of "overunity".

Besides, I doubt if you have ever actually performed "experiments" of your own at all.... because you have never presented any evidence that you have, and you evidently do not even know how to interpret real experiments and demonstrations performed by others.


Which direction does current flow when the power is removed from a coil? Same direction, or reversed direction? Face the facts and admit your errors, or present evidence OF YOUR OWN to refute the demonstrated facts. Or continue to dodge the question and weasel around your original claim, demonstrating yet again your profound lack of integrity.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 01, 2017, 02:55:17 PM
Quote
Which direction does current flow when the power is removed from a coil? Same direction, or reversed direction?
The original question was, which current direction generates the collapsing magnetic field of coil. This direction is the opposite to the current, which created this magnetic field.
Quote
And you admit to using straw-man arguments once again!
The question is, who is actual comedian here. The arguing, that something is impossible, because you did try it without success is called an anectodal fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence). Such a dumbness cannot be beaten by any other fallacy.
Quote
there is _plenty_ of evidence that electrons do exist
There is plenty of evidence for electricity - but the proof that electrons exist is not so trivial. This is just a matter of consistency of thinking. I'm pretty sure, nobody of you did ever observe the electron in the same way like the overunity.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 01, 2017, 03:15:43 PM
ok...so this time around, I put forth the effort and wrote your opinion on the paper before using it....waste not want not.......me not being one for getting into the dirty details....

Starting to get the point though.....the only opinion which matters is...... (not) yours.....

Sorry for the cynical comment.  What I should have said is that I can't make much sense of what you are saying.   Like, okay, a gyroscope is a flywheel.  But grounded forces, linear actuators, transmitted into the ground, etc, I really don't know where you are going with that and I can't relate it to the subject matter.

Also, please don't play straw man.  And you would look better if you would refrain from your usual dismissive attitude when you feel the conversation is done. The old, "I've got better things to do with my time" bit is just a pretentious rude diss and it is not needed.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 01, 2017, 03:42:33 PM
Is the capacitance and the inductance of the Bifilar pancake coil, parallel or series?

A LC circuit with capacitors and inductors, can be made in parallel or series. This has influence on the impedance at its resonant frequency.
 
But the bifilar pancake coil is a capacitor and inductor, at the same time, in the same space. So it is ONE. it cant be series, and it cant be parallel.

With a capacitor inductor L/C circuit, the dielectric field is stored in a different place (the capacitor), than where the magnetic field (the inductor) is stored.
With the fields divided, we can make them series or parallel, because they are separated in space.

But in a bifilar coil, the fields are generated from within the same space. the dielectric, resides inside the magnetic field, as both are produced from the same bifilar windings.
Therefor, it is ONE.

This resembles a magnet, which has a magnetic field, with inside it the dielectric field (bloch wall).

Okay, let me give you some perspective here.  Often, there is a frame of reference for a discussion.  I will give you a classic example.  If you don't live in the Arctic as an Inuit, then the way you relate to snow and describe snow during the wintertime time is much different than that of an Inuit.  We might say, fluffy snow, sticky snow, and slush.  But the Inuit have about 20 words to describe 20 distinct variations for snow in their Arctic environment.

The frame of reference here is that the self-resonating coil is a device with two terminals and you can observe the voltage across the two terminals and the current flow through the device.  Since you are talking about the current through the coil, the coil in this case is not stand-alone, it is in a circuit of some kind.   The simplified circuit is [AC voltage source] -> [pancake coil] -> [Ground].

So from that frame of reference the question is what does the self-resonating coil look like at resonance?  The answer cannot be "is is ONE" because that doesn't make sense.  The presumption is that it will look like either a series LC circuit with very low impedance at resonance or as a parallel LC circuit with near-infinite impedance at resonance.  The suggested test procedure was outlined for you.

The fact that the inductive components and fields and the dielectric (capacitive) components and fields coexist in the same 3D space is of no consequence.  In addition, when the magnetic field changes it produces an electric field and when the electric field changes it produces a magnetic field.  So the concept of magnetic and electric fields occupying the same space is nothing new.

This clip is a mixture of simple concepts related to this and hard core math and it may be of interest to you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DH7ufrkeHM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DH7ufrkeHM)

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 01, 2017, 04:54:36 PM

I think that in the coil you have distributed impedances that allow for a complex form of propagation.  Look up the stuff that Eric Dollard has explained about TEM vs LMD probagation, LC vs MK.  The dielectric and magnetic components haven't turned into one.  They have just been reduced to existing within the coil structure so that they 'appear' to be one to the observer.  His Theory of Wireless Power (http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Eric_Dollard_Document_Collection/Theory%20of%20Wireless%20Power%20by%20Eric%20Dollard_OCR.pdf) book has some good diagrams highlighting this complete propagation, pg35 - Fig 1.


Dave
Thanks Dave. Yes I know the book, and his other great works. (works great with Ken wheelers/theoria apophasis views)

It seems the spiralling spacial vortex magnetic field(above and below the windings), becomes one(in phase) with the spiraling dielectric field in between the windings. Becoming the same field, that some call the magneto dielectric.

All fields are ether fields, its the field form that defines its characteristics. A spacial vortex field, is magnetic (creating suction/pressure). A coherent linear field (in a capacitor) is dielectric (creating tension). 

2D drawings dont show the whole complexity of the field flows. We really have to visualise them in 3D. thats what i like about the ferrocell and VR
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 01, 2017, 06:13:47 PM

You aren't sorry....  You cannot make sense of what I am saying....your problem, not mine.  Did I say a gyroscope is a flywheel? NO, you did!  I know what a gyroscope is, and the role a flywheel plays within a gyroscope....  I said "replace the flywheel with a gyroscope."  Big fucking difference......savvy!  not a question..... You want folk to see the relation that a coil has to a flywheel, mediocre....the relation a coil has to a gyroscope is where folk need to focus, but since you are the competent authority, you get to decide where folk invest their time....bullshit!


Regarding the "grounded forces"....I cannot tell you how good it feels to bask in the glory of your ignorance....gonna stretch this out as long as I can....


You can't relate because, as can be interpreted from the tone of your opinions, suggestions and recommendations, you are better than the best in the peanut gallery.....King shit on planet shit....  What I say makes no sense to you because it registers too low on your bullshit meter, got to get your nose out of the air, you have to drop the bar...lower your sensitivity levels.... where you have your meter set, my bullshit is just noise...  You are tuned to your level of bullshit.... Try and understand, I don't have the skill set to bullshit at your level.  Come down off that long legged horse and mingle with the know nots, you might pick up a bad habit or two, and or an STD or three, it will be a first, and experience, a WIN WIN for you!


You play this strawman card on everyone who gives you shit.....Kiss a strawmans straw ass....   Open your fucking impotent (not the best choice but it fits...) mind, broaden your  horizons.  There are literally hundreds of better instructors than you, refer folk to them and be silent, like a gangster would! 


The conversation ends when I no longer feel the need to entertain myself at your expense.  The dismissive attitude, a facade I wear for the antagonists, like batman's costume (the dark knight bitch).   When the moment arrives and better things come calling, go fuck yourself till I'm ready to entertain myself with this silly, meaningless, distraction you arrogantly and ignorantly associate with ambrosia.


In conclusion, your presence on a platform where you obviously don't fit in (know them by their work) is suspect.  Your need to demonstrate your superior intellect, projecting it on any and everyone like a piss drunk working person is beyond a bit pretentious, its out right PISS OFF!

My turn to jump on the gang pile! Three words: Scrap Yard Magnet!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 01, 2017, 06:19:44 PM
That was a good big rant.  We were discussing a bifilar pancake coil.  Anything relevant to say about that?  I guess whose version of an "open mind" is something for people to consider.  It takes insight and an open mind a willingness to learn to get somewhere.  I mean to actually get somewhere.

I am not impressed by another one of your pitches which is, "You can't understand my own private insights and tough luck for you."  If you are going to play the perpetual tease, what's the point?  If you would try to explain yourself better and with more clarity perhaps people could understand where you are coming from.  People could perhaps learn from you if there is substance, or perhaps not if there is no substance.  I know, you don't care and you are in another realm and we just wouldn't understand anyway.

As an example of getting somewhere, I posted a large-signal inductance meter circuit, see it below.  Can you describe how you use it?  If you can, great.  If not, it's wet paper bag territory for you.  Don't forget, we are trying to understand some basic electronics sometimes on this forum.  So what's a bifilar pancake coil?  Is it some vortex superluminal spiraling thingamajig?  Or when all is said and done is it really and truly a coil with standard associated parameters?  I think that is a pretty interesting question.

And here is your straw man:

Quote
Starting to get the point though.....the only opinion which matters is...... (not) yours.....
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 01, 2017, 06:56:25 PM
Yawn.....  I am not intersted in discussing your perspective.

LOL  Following your programming!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 01, 2017, 07:03:13 PM
I skimmed through the following clips and they all look pretty good.

Measuring coil inductance and IF transformer resonant frequency

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff5xOENID7w

How to measure inductance with Oscilloscope and Signal Generator

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01Ebd6eR7Lw

Measure Capacitors and Inductors with an Oscilloscope and some basic parts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74fz9iwZ_sM

Measuring Inductance with A Pulse and Oscilloscope

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhS8m38ef0Y
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 01, 2017, 09:24:53 PM
The original question was, which current direction generates the collapsing magnetic field of coil. This direction is the opposite to the current, which created this magnetic field.

 (emphasis mine)

Are you sure you don't mean "the collapsing magnetic field generates which current direction"? Regardless of your scrambled verbiage (I realize English isn't your first language) .... now you may please explain why and how the LED flashes in my video demonstration.

The rest of your post is not worthy of a response.

Quote
The question is, who is actual comedian here. The arguing, that something is impossible, because you did try it without success is called an anectodal fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence). Such a dumbness cannot be beaten by any other fallacy. There is plenty of evidence for electricity - but the proof that electrons exist is not so trivial. This is just a matter of consistency of thinking. I'm pretty sure, nobody of you did ever observe the electron in the same way like the overunity.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 01, 2017, 09:28:37 PM
My turn to jump on the gang pile! Three words: Scrap Yard Magnet!

You are presumably repeating the claim you have made before, that scrapyard magnets are wound in the Tesla Bifilar method, and that this is done to increase the field strength for a given current. I have been unable to find any reference on the Internet to confirm this contention. So please post some links so this can be checked.

However I did find this discussion on this forum from some time ago. It looks like your claim, at least in this case,  is false.

http://www.overunity.com/13460/teslas-coil-for-electro-magnets/260/wap/
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 01, 2017, 11:04:33 PM
If the spiraling magnetic vortexes above and below the bifilar pancake coil, line up with the spiraling dielectric field in between the windings,  the fields become one.
The magnetic field energy is added to the dielectric field energy, explaining why there is such a big rise at the (primary) resonant frequency. The voltage rise could be due to the merging of the fields.

This newly created uniform field, has interesting properties. Much of those are not yet explored. Why? Because it is so different than what we a are used to. We are used to the power of induction, the power of magnetic fields.
But this field is simply different.

It can make you sick, drain the life out of you,
It can make you energized, so much that you cant sleep
Or make you run to the toilet like Mark Twain did after he ignored Tesla's advice because it made him feel so good.

At higher voltages, it can do more. so much to explore (and it has been explored,  its being used)

Its natures natural form of electricity. our body's function with it, and the earth is full of it.

The bifilar pancake coil, is like a special kind of transformer, producing this energy.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: shylo on April 01, 2017, 11:17:19 PM
Yeah but what happens when you introduce 3 fields, and then 4, and then 5?
artv
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 01, 2017, 11:48:43 PM
evostars
when you say " Ken Wheeler and Spinning vortex's" are you saying he has shown this "spinning vortex" ?
I remember over here a few years ago he posted an experiment or Claim with bismuth and a magnet

The claim was a rise in temperature due to the spinning vortex thru the Bismuth.

Many here did caloric testing with this claim and failed to realize the same result, his claim was originally based on a thermal imaging camera reading which at the time was questionable do to reflection artifacts ?

Has he since shown this in a lab test ? or some other way to qualify this actual Motion ??

If there is indeed motion It should be viewable thru input enhancement and some metal dust or foil ?
Or/
and as Ken says if the field is spinning it should react and produce power or heat [his bismuth example]

would be good to See this motion,  which would indeed mean a potential interaction at higher power levels ??

and for clarity I did speak several times with Ken and explained we were not seeing this in the lab [heat]

has he done testing since to prove this "spinning Vortex" motion ?
and for additional clarity we could do this test again here with supporting You tube Vids, so as to have the proper test protocols and rule out error ?

respectfully

Chet K

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 02, 2017, 02:41:54 AM
evostars
when you say Ken Wheeler and vortex's are you saying he has shown this "spinning" vortex ?
I remember over here a few years ago he posted an experiment or Claim with bismuth and a magnet
the claim was a rise in temperature due to the spinning vortex thru the Bismuth.

many here did caloric testing with this claim and failed to realize the same result, his claim was originally based on a thermal imaging camera reading which at the time was questionable do to reflection artifacts ?

has he since shown this in a lab test ? or some other way to qualify this actual Motion ??

it should be achievable thru input enhancement and some metal dust or foil ?
Or?

would be good to See this motion,  which would indeed mean a potential interaction at higher power levels ??

and for clarity I did speak several times with Ken and explained we were not seeing this in the lab [heat]

has he done testing since to prove this "spinning Vortex" motion ?
and for additional clarity we could do this test again here with supporting You tube Vids, so as to have the proper test protocols and rule out error ?

respectfully

Chet K


so far as i know,  he has not.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 02, 2017, 01:40:24 PM
If you're attempting for overunity, you should understand what you're actually trying to do. The overunity breaks all laws of physics, which are based on energy conservation law, which are all laws in essence (because all laws rely on energy transfer in this way or another on background) and as such it breaks the causality and thermodynamical time arrow. It's negentropic, superluminal, antigravity, extradimensional out-of-world phenomena based on monopole scalar wave physics - i.e. just the things, which shouldn't exist according to mainstream physics because of limiting speed of EM waves, which cannot be exceeded. Which is why mainstream physics avoids the overunity research like devil the cross, because it denies whole its religion, which it has been based on during last centuries. What is important here, this principle applies to speed of EM waves within all environments, not just vacuum - no matter how slow these waves can be with these materials. It's very universal principle because of universal character of EM wave propagation.

Fortunately just this aspect of overunity enables us to pursue it, because the speed of EM waves within magnetically or electrically conductive materials is greatly lowered bellow the speed of light in vacuum and it can be modulated there in wide extent in addition. For example magnet or surface of conductor mediates EM waves much slower than the vacuum and if we introduce external magnetic or electric field, then it can be saturated and its ability to slow down EM wave will be temporarily disabled. From this moment the existing EM waves would propagate faster than they should and their excessive energy will be released into account of thermal energy of material. We can therefore say, that the overunity is paradoxically just the consequence of conservation of energy and limited speed of EM waves within systems, which temporarily and locally enabled to exceed and break it.

It's also important to realize, that this principle doesn't enable us to break the first law of thermodynamics and to generate heat from nothing. If we are utilizing variable speed of light within materials instead of vacuum, then the overunity actually comes from heat fluctuations of material instead of vacuum - so that only second law of thermodynamics can get broken. Which isn't fundamental obstacle for perpetuum mobile of the 2n kind, because such an overunity machine can be placed at yard and leaved to cool the rest of universe. But if we would use it for example for heating of our kitchen (i.e. thermally insulated room), then it would cool it with exactly the energy, which we will drain from it for this purpose. And because the processes of EM wave modulation are energy dissipative in general, we aren't still warrantied, that this approach will actually generate some free energy. The alternative polarization/depolarization of material is energy costly process and it will also consume some energy. So that the construction of overunity devices isn't trivial task even if you exactly know, what you're doing, because you must eliminate loses of energy with classical, i.e. energy dissipative processes.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 02, 2017, 02:03:51 PM
Lighting led and neon with one hand ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEZSCNHDYJs

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 02, 2017, 03:04:16 PM
That is for starters :


Like someone say :     “For starters, there is no such thing as single-wire energy transmission.”
Maybe we could try without wires ….. ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGdKqdpztuY



Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 02, 2017, 03:32:12 PM
My apologies, it was not an LED I lit with one hand ... :(
Maybe this example best illustrates how I love playing with LEDs. :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FasAn7aJa6o

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 02, 2017, 03:42:16 PM
That is for starters :

Like someone say :     “For starters, there is no such thing as single-wire energy transmission.”
Maybe we could try without wires ….. ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGdKqdpztuY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGdKqdpztuY)

Nelson Rocha

Sure I would be happy to explain this to you again.  Typically high-frequency voltage travels down the single wire.  However, with no current flow you cannot transfer any AC power into the load.  So the question is how do you get current to flow when there is no apparent current loop in the circuit?  As we know, for current to flow, there must be a loop.

We also know that there exists so-called "stray" (a.k.a. parasitic) capacitance everywhere.  A capacitor is just two conducting plates separated by a distance.  Let's look at a trivial example.  Suppose you are outside in your back yard.  Let's say there is an insulating plastic lawn chair that you are sitting in and your feet are not touching the ground.  We know that the ground is conductive and there is always some moisture in the ground that helps it become more conductive.  We also know the human body is basically salty water, and so the human body is conductive.

Therefore, when you sit on an insulating plastic chair in your back yard with your feet not touching the ground we can say that there is a measurable capacitance between your body and the ground.  It may be very small, perhaps 100 pF, but it is there and it is measurable.  In reality, there is stray or parasitic capacitance everywhere.

It is this stray capacitance that allows AC current to conduct in a current loop that allows for so-called "single wire power transmission."

Here is a typical circuit current loop:

<earth ground> ---> <stray capacitor #1> ---> <high frequency AC signal generator> ---> <load> ---> <stray capacitor #2> ---> <back to earth ground>

When you do a "single wire power transmission" experiment there are typically two "invisible" stray capacitors that allow AC current to flow.  Therefore the load sees both voltage and current and therefore AC power gets transferred into the load.  Small neon lights and LEDs require very little power to light up and that's why you often see them lit in experiments like this.

This is a fairly straightforward concept that should be understood by people interested in experimenting with electronics.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: NRamaswami on April 02, 2017, 04:28:49 PM
Sir..

Your explanation is plausible but if this is correct then we have high frequency always coming to us in the form of Sun light and cosmic rays. It should be possible for us to synchronize and then collect the power anywhere in the world at any time of the day or night. Why are we not able to do that? Would you please advise.

I do not dispute that your explanation is plausible but I do not get it as to why we cannot have devices in the way you describe. I myself have built and tested wireless Electricity transmission but these are small experiments and have been done before.

Please advise your insight as to how your theory can be used to make electricity everywhere at any time.

Regards

Ramaswami


Sure I would be happy to explain this to you again.  Typically high-frequency voltage travels down the single wire.  However, with no current flow you cannot transfer any AC power into the load.  So the question is how do you get current to flow when there is no apparent current loop in the circuit?  As we know, for current to flow, there must be a loop.

We also know that there exists so-called "stray" (a.k.a. parasitic) capacitance everywhere.  A capacitor is just two conducting plates separated by a distance.  Let's look at a trivial example.  Suppose you are outside in your back yard.  Let's say there is an insulating plastic lawn chair that you are sitting in and your feet are not touching the ground.  We know that the ground is conductive and there is always some moisture in the ground that helps it become more conductive.  We also know the human body is basically salty water, and so the human body is conductive.

Therefore, when you sit on an insulating plastic chair in your back yard with your feet not touching the ground we can say that there is a measurable capacitance between your body and the ground.  It may be very small, perhaps 100 pF, but it is there and it is measurable.  In reality, there is stray or parasitic capacitance everywhere.

It is this stray capacitance that allows AC current to conduct in a current loop that allows for so-called "single wire power transmission."

Here is a typical circuit current loop:

<earth ground> ---> <stray capacitor #1> ---> <high frequency AC signal generator> ---> <load> ---> <stray capacitor #2> ---> <back to earth ground>

When you do a "single wire power transmission" experiment there are typically two "invisible" stray capacitors that allow AC current to flow.  Therefore the load sees both voltage and current and therefore AC power gets transferred into the load.  Small neon lights and LEDs require very little power to light up and that's why you often see them lit in experiments like this.

This is a fairly straightforward concept that should be understood by people interested in experimenting with electronics.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 02, 2017, 04:57:32 PM
Lighting led and neon with one hand ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEZSCNHDYJs

Nelson Rocha
good to see your videos nelson!
im still curious for the Levitating aluminium foil.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: forest on April 02, 2017, 07:20:45 PM
remember https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4EoJ4UwU8E

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 02, 2017, 09:26:22 PM
Single-wire transmission line - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_transmission_line), more background (http://amasci.com/tesla/tmistk.html)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: NRamaswami on April 02, 2017, 09:28:29 PM
Forest Sir

I think you all miss the point here.

My knowledge is very low and so if I make mistakes please advise.

I think this wireless transmission of electricity is based on resonant capacitive coupling. Within the area of influence of the transmitter any device that resonates with the transmitter can be coupled to it and it would work to produce output. The area of influence of transmitter can be increased by using repeaters at proper distances.

However if resonant capacitive coupling is achieved in theory each resonantly coupled  device must produce output. This is how radio stations work.

I understand that one such emitter should be able to power 1000 devices each with an efficiency of 50 to 60% but the sum total of all would be far in Excess of energy consumption of transmitter.

The key to do this resonance coupling.

I have seen that one type of lamps are resontly coupled and light up without any wire being connected to them. but it can be explained as capacitive coupling.

Another type of lamp does not light up for it is not showing resonant capacitive coupling.

Let me test some time whether I can light up lamps that would need 1000 watts normally from the grid  would wirelessly light up with just 440 watts of input. If they do then we are one step further in to this area. But will it work or won't we need to test and see.

All of you have different perspective of how an Elephant would like and disagree with each other when no one appears to have seen an Elephant in the first place. This is the problem.

Unfortunately it only resulted in a shouting match.
No useful knowledge is being transmitted to lay people like me.

Regards

Ramaswami

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 02, 2017, 10:37:00 PM
Single-wire transmission line - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_transmission_line), more background (http://amasci.com/tesla/tmistk.html)

Here is the critical quote from the Wikipedia theory section:

At much higher frequencies, however, it is possible for the return circuit (which would normally be connected through a second wire) to utilize the self- and parasitic capacitance of a large conductive object, perhaps the housing of the load (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_load) itself.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 02, 2017, 11:10:28 PM
The original question was, which current direction generates the collapsing magnetic field of coil. This direction is the opposite to the current, which created this magnetic field.


Are you sure you don't mean "the collapsing magnetic field generates which current direction"? Regardless of your scrambled verbiage (I realize English isn't your first language) .... now you may please explain why and how the LED flashes in my video demonstration.



What's that I hear? Sound of crickets chirping....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X66foYixu9Y
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 02, 2017, 11:14:16 PM
WireLESS power transmission, no capacitive coupling involved:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-hl2W86yk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-hl2W86yk)

Note bulb can be  _brighter_  when powered wirelessly than when connected directly to the battery powering the wireless transmitter.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: NRamaswami on April 02, 2017, 11:41:49 PM
I have to beg to disagree based on my observations.

I agree that light can be made to be brighter wirelessly than when connected to the grid. That part is correct by observations.

However I have checked with a 40 watts tube light and it glows only up to the part where my hand catches it near the receiver coil. The feet wearing rubber slippers are on an insulated copper plate connected to earth. As I moved the hand further tube glows till hand is touching the light.

However if I just place the tube light between the two aerials one of them is transmitter and other receiver the Whole tube glows. In your video posted you use a tiny lamp and so you are not able to observe it but capacitance is through your body.

This is not really important. The real thing is how do we find out resonance or calculate it. If we can create something that is resonant with cosmic rays then we have electricity to be generated any where and everywhere at any time.

Your ring is very low power for you need to go very close to it to make wireless transmission to happen.
That can be very easily improved.

Regards

Ramaswami


Quote from: TinselKoala
  link=topic=17186.msg503045#msg503045 date=1491167656
WireLESS power transmission, no capacitive coupling involved:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-hl2W86yk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-hl2W86yk)

Note bulb can be  _brighter_  when powered wirelessly than when connected directly to the battery powering the wireless transmitter.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 02, 2017, 11:43:32 PM
Sure I would be happy to explain this to you again.  Typically high-frequency voltage travels down the single wire.  However, with no current flow you cannot transfer any AC power into the load.  So the question is how do you get current to flow when there is no apparent current loop in the circuit?  As we know, for current to flow, there must be a loop.

We also know that there exists so-called "stray" (a.k.a. parasitic) capacitance everywhere.  A capacitor is just two conducting plates separated by a distance.  Let's look at a trivial example.  Suppose you are outside in your back yard.  Let's say there is an insulating plastic lawn chair that you are sitting in and your feet are not touching the ground.  We know that the ground is conductive and there is always some moisture in the ground that helps it become more conductive.  We also know the human body is basically salty water, and so the human body is conductive.

Therefore, when you sit on an insulating plastic chair in your back yard with your feet not touching the ground we can say that there is a measurable capacitance between your body and the ground.  It may be very small, perhaps 100 pF, but it is there and it is measurable.  In reality, there is stray or parasitic capacitance everywhere.

It is this stray capacitance that allows AC current to conduct in a current loop that allows for so-called "single wire power transmission."

Here is a typical circuit current loop:

<earth ground> ---> <stray capacitor #1> ---> <high frequency AC signal generator> ---> <load> ---> <stray capacitor #2> ---> <back to earth ground>

When you do a "single wire power transmission" experiment there are typically two "invisible" stray capacitors that allow AC current to flow.  Therefore the load sees both voltage and current and therefore AC power gets transferred into the load.  Small neon lights and LEDs require very little power to light up and that's why you often see them lit in experiments like this.

This is a fairly straightforward concept that should be understood by people interested in experimenting with electronics.


I'm impressed with such detail of explanation !
Thanks,  I will apply that to my future work . I'm feel fascinating, and for sure is a  straightforward concept that i need learn .
Thanks MH for your contribution :)


Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 03, 2017, 12:37:46 AM
I have to beg to disagree based on my observations.
You may disagree, but your observations apparently are not of my system, and your preconceptions are causing you to draw incorrect conclusions.
Quote

I agree that light can be made to be brighter wirelessly than when connected to the grid. That part is correct by observations.
The system I demonstrated in that video is not connected to the grid in any way. It is simply powered by a single 12 volt SLA battery of 7 A-H capacity.
The bulb is a standard automotive dome light bulb.
Quote

However I have checked with a 40 watts tube light and it glows only up to the part where my hand catches it near the receiver coil. The feet wearing rubber slippers are on an insulated copper plate connected to earth. As I moved the hand further tube glows till hand is touching the light.

However if I just place the tube light between the two aerials one of them is transmitter and other receiver the Whole tube glows. In your video posted you use a tiny lamp and so you are not able to observe it but capacitance is through your body.

The bulb I used is an incandescent bulb, not a "tube light" or fluorescent light. The system is an electromagnetically coupled system, does not depend on the electric field and there is no capacitance involved in the power transmission itself. It works regardless of whether my hand is involved or not. In the case of the video demonstration above I simply held the receiver and bulb in my hand for convenience so that it would be easy and unambiguous to tell that I made no "tricks" just connected the bulb directly to the battery, and then to the wireless receiver without making any changes.

Quote


This is not really important.


On the contrary. It is very important that experiments and demonstrations be correctly interpreted. Perhaps it is my fault for not including a voiceover explanation in that video.

Quote
The real thing is how do we find out resonance or calculate it. If we can create something that is resonant with cosmic rays then we have electricity to be generated any where and everywhere at any time.

The demonstrated system is doubly resonant. The transmitter uses a self-resonating circuit that automatically attains resonance in the L-C output circuit and maintains it. The receiver uses another LC circuit (made of only one capacitor and the "antenna loop") tuned to the correct frequency of the transmitter. We "find out" resonance by using test equipment such as oscilloscopes, and we "calculate" resonance based on component values and a few well-known and well-studied mathematical equations. But you know this already.

The power density of cosmic rays at the Earth's surface is actually quite small, thank goodness. The atmosphere and the Earth's magnetic field protect us from most of the power streaming at us from space, which is a good thing because otherwise life would have a hard time existing here on Earth.

Quote
Your ring is very low power for you need to go very close to it to make wireless transmission to happen.
That can be very easily improved.


That much, at least, you have correct. I am demonstrating a low power system in the close quarters of my bedroom laboratory, using a small 12 volt battery as the power source.

Quote
Regards

Ramaswami
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: NRamaswami on April 03, 2017, 02:20:05 AM
TK

Unfortunately I have neither the equipment nor the theoretical knowledge to calculate resonance on my own. I have replicated a device already built and described and found it provided resonance. So without the knowledge I am unable to respond. You are a Tesla fan but when you say cosmic rays are weak are you not contradicting Tesla Radiant energy patent. For that was the next experiment I wanted to do.

Is not electromagnetic coupling inferior to electric coupling as distance of coupling would be greatly reduced? Could you please give your insight on that.
Thanks

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 03, 2017, 11:29:20 PM
TK

Unfortunately I have neither the equipment nor the theoretical knowledge to calculate resonance on my own. I have replicated a device already built and described and found it provided resonance. So without the knowledge I am unable to respond.

If you don't have the equipment or the theoretical knowledge, how do you know that your device is actually "providing resonance" ?

Quote
You are a Tesla fan but when you say cosmic rays are weak are you not contradicting Tesla Radiant energy patent. For that was the next experiment I wanted to do.

By all means perform the experiment yourself. No, I am not contradicting Tesla's patent, I am just pointing out that you won't be able to get much power from it, as there isn't very much real power from cosmic rays or the solar wind available at the surface of the Earth.

You may be interested to know that I have actual "photographs" of cosmic rays. Or at least photos of the trails produced by cosmic rays in my sensitive astrophotograpy camera which uses a cooled charge-coupled device (CCD) imager. It's a good thing there aren't more of them because it would really screw up the photos of astronomical objects and events. Not to mention wreaking havoc with DNA in living organisms.

Quote
Is not electromagnetic coupling inferior to electric coupling as distance of coupling would be greatly reduced? Could you please give your insight on that.
Thanks

It depends on what you mean by "inferior". For example over the past couple of years we are starting to see more and more wireless charging and power transfer systems from commercial manufacturers like Apple. These are all electromagnetic. The problem with using the electric field, as you may have already found out yourself, is that when sufficient power is applied for longer range, almost everything in the environment becomes a "receiver". I think Tesla found this out, you have seen it no doubt, and even Eric Dollard discovered it for himself. With high-power electric field systems you get fluorescent and neon bulbs lighting up all over the place, sensitive components in devices like computers start to fail, people get shocked, metal shelving and metal chassis start spraying corona... it can be a real problem. With electromagnetic coupling you need tuned receivers (which can be very simple as I've shown) and yes, it does work best at relatively close range. Surround a room or a garage with the transmitting loop, or embed it in the concrete floor and you can transfer large amounts of power safely and under control, and only your tuned receivers will be able to pick it up. You can't do that with powerful electric fields.

 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: NRamaswami on April 04, 2017, 12:08:38 AM
Thanks TK

You seem to be amazingly well funded  and no dispute a lot of knowledge to match it.

I had been careful with using very weak electric fields to start with. The receiver coil connected to earth lights up a fluorescent lamp or Long straight tube light of 40 watts when it is brought near the unpowered receiver coil. Without resonance this is not possible. We do not need devices or calculations to understand this.

On electric fields I think we are yet to replicate nature which provides safe healthy terahertz visible spectrum. Only if we create very high voltage and relatively lower range frequencies compared to visible spectrum we have the problems you indicated. We would need particle size receivers to be resonant with it.

Wireless electromagnetic coupling can potentially increase the risk of deadly diseases. Cancer was extremely rare in India 40 years back. We have a lot today. Situation in Countries like US is said to be far worse. Has there been safety studies on wireless electromagnetic coupling done? 

On cosmic rays I beg to differ. While you are correct in the power of them as received they can be easily amplified. Tesla's patent does not talk about the amplification part which is otherwise common sense.

I believe that there is at least one member here who possibly might have done the Daniel McFarland Cook device which is said to produce unlimited DC output. Such
Such devices if controlled properly are quite safe.

Regards

Ramaswami
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tomd on April 04, 2017, 04:40:57 AM
There is a guy from Brazil - Gerson Paiva - who has a number of patents (attached) for free energy devices which work on the principle of muon capture to produce energy. In 2007 he was a doctoral student at the Federal University of Pernambuco where he was involved in the investigation of ball lightning. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/01/070122-ball-lightning.html (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/01/070122-ball-lightning.html)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmsg5LpGICV-jgJ2P1UirMg (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmsg5LpGICV-jgJ2P1UirMg)

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 04, 2017, 06:46:03 AM
Okay no takers on the self-resonant flywheel being a direct mechanical analog to the self-resonant coil.  So let's review it.

Rotational inertia is equivalent to inductance.  So it is rotational self-springiness that would be equivalent to the self-capacitance of the coil.

So how do we model that?  When you think of a flywheel, you think of a very solid disk of metal, say like a metal weight you put on a barbell.  Instead of that, let's imagine a much thinner metal disk, say something like the proportions of a cutting saw blade in a table saw.  Let's make the diameter larger also, say about one meter.

So, we are going to find the self-resonant frequency of a large and thin metal disk flywheel.  There is a certain amount of rotational springiness in that flywheel, if you put a brake on the outer edge of the flywheel and applied twisting torque on the center, the center wold twist a slight amount.

So you mount the flywheel on a shaft in a test system.  The test system can apply torque to the shaft in the form of an AC sine wave that can vary in intensity and frequency.  That is the equivalent to an external voltage source exciting the coil.

You start off by setting the applied torque on the flywheel as a one-hertz sine wave where the torque varies back and forth between a clockwise (CW) peak of 500 newton-meters and a counterclockwise (CCW) peak of 500 newton-meters.  You observe the flywheel rotating CW and then CCW at one hertz.  You also notice that the velocity of the rotating flywheel is exactly 90 degrees behind the applied torque to the flywheel, which is exactly how an inductor works for the relationship between the applied voltage and resulting current flow.  The two behave in exactly the same way.

You slowly increase the frequency of the CW + CCW torque to the flywheel and observe the flywheel rotating CW and then CCW where the velocity of the rotation is still 90 degrees behind the applied torque.  However, you notice that as you increase the frequency of the applied torque the total back-and forth angular displacement of the flywheel is decreasing.

When you apply a 200 Hz torque waveform to the flywheel, you can't even see the flywheel moving anymore.  At a 300 Hz AC torque, the flywheel appears to be perfectly still and not moving.  Apply a 400 Hz AC torque signal and the same thing, no apparent response at all from the flywheel.

But, at 497 Hz you hear a slight ringing from the flywheel but you still can't see any movement.  But all hell breaks loose at 500 Hz.  At 500 Hz you hear an incredibly loud ringing sound coming from the flywheel.  You look at the shaft and you can see the shaft is moving CW + CCW at 500 Hz.  You can see a small noticeable CW + CCW rotation at the outer edge of the flywheel.  But the most noticeable thing is the incredibly loud ringing sound filling the room.

You change the AC torque applied to the flywheel shaft to 503 Hz and you are back to hearing a slight ringing.  At 510 Hz, the shaft appears to have stopped moving and the flywheel emits no sound and it is back to looking like it is not moving at all.

So the flywheel had a self-resonant frequency of 500 Hz which was based on the rotational springiness of the flywheel interacting with the moment of inertial (rotational mass) of the flywheel.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 04, 2017, 07:10:18 AM
So, you go back and apply the 500 Hz AC torque signal to the flywheel and observe the flywheel at its self-resonant frequency.  There is no doubt about the resonant rise in the response of the flywheel because you can hear it ringing so loud.

So, is this "resonant rise" something to get excited about?  Is this higher amplitude resonant response from the flywheel a possible key to a mechanical over unity device?

Not really, because after five minutes at resonance the flywheel starts to get really hot.  You quickly realize that all of the shaft power that is going into the flywheel is turning into an incredibly loud ringing sound and the flywheel itself is starting to heat up.  All of the rotational shaft power you are putting into the flywheel is becoming sound and heat.  Or we can call that waste sound and waste heat.

So exciting a flywheel at its self-resonant frequency is essentially exactly the same as exciting a coil at its self-resonant frequency.  In both cases all of the increased supplied power to the resonant system becomes increased waste heat.

If you excite the flywheel at its self-resonant frequency with a high enough peak-to-peak AC torque signal, the flywheel will eventually heat up to the point it starts to get red hot.

Now, don't forget an ideal spring stores energy returns energy, it is not supposed to generate heat.  But the spring inside the flywheel is not ideal, it has hysteresis and any energy that it does not return is converted into heat.  In other words, there is effectively friction inside the resonating flywheel creating heat.

So the energy being burned off in the resonating flywheel due to friction is like the energy being burned off in the resonating coil due to wire resistance.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Grumage on April 04, 2017, 12:48:57 PM
Dear MileHigh.

Your original post had me thinking off and on, having had over 40 years experience with the Internal Combustion Engine.

I would never, even with several lifetimes have envisaged a flywheel that oscillated at 500 HZ!

Most practical people recognise that a flywheel stores rotational energy to carry the ICE through its dead cycles. On early electric generation engines the flywheel was made heavier to reduce the flicker of the lights.

Perhaps my post echoes the reason for " no takers " ?

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 04, 2017, 01:35:47 PM
Graham:

I think that you are missing the point.  For starters the example has no relationship with any flywheel that might be used in an internal combustion engine.  I described a thin disk one meter in diameter.  I described it like this so the thinness and reduced material in the disk would be more amenable to being deformed when torque was applied at the center of the disk.  The deformation is the spring in action.

If the disk is proportioned with a larger width, then the stiffness of the torque spring inside the disk goes way way up and the self-resonant frequency of the flywheel quickly goes up past 20 KHz and becomes inaudible.  Likewise, the amplitude of the  self-resonant oscillations would be so low as to be unobservable with the naked eye.

The whole point of the exercise was to "tune down" the self-resonant frequency to make it audible and observable.  The described dimensions of the hypothetical flywheel and the self-resonant frequency are all arbitrary and for illustrative purposes only.

The point of the exercise is to illustrate how a self-resonating flywheel is a near-perfect analogy for a self-resonating coil.

If you are working in a physics lab as a college freshman you might have a near-frictionless linear air track and you will will do the basic tests with a spring.  The spring they give you to test and measure for the spring constant "k" is like a miniature slinky that is about half a meter long in its relaxed state.  It is a very weak spring and you hang weights on it to measure how far it stretches to determine the spring constant.  The spring that you test serves no useful purpose in the real world that I am aware of, it's only used in physics labs.  However, it still is a spring and when you analyze that very weak spring you end up understanding how springs work in general.  Exactly the same principles are at play with my hypothetical example.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 04, 2017, 03:08:11 PM
Quote
how a self-resonating flywheel is a near-perfect analogy for a self-resonating coil

Why, what this analogy explains/predict? BTW Does self-resonating flywheel exist?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Grumage on April 04, 2017, 06:16:50 PM
Graham:

I think that you are missing the point.

MileHigh

Dear MileHigh.

On the contrary, I don't think there was a point to be missed.

Your flywheel ceased to be a " Flywheel " the moment it stopped rotating. IMO your analogy is more akin to a mechanical oscillator.

From my perspective any flywheel that's rotating at a fixed speed ( doesn't matter what speed ) is resonant. My reasoning ? The flywheel, once up to speed requires far less energy than it took to get there.

Kind regards,  Graham.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: web000x on April 04, 2017, 06:27:15 PM
I'll just leave this here for anyone who cares:


Gyroscopic Primer by Prof Eric Laithwaite (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OpCEJxO6V9g)


Dave
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 04, 2017, 08:15:17 PM
Why, what this analogy explains/predict? BTW Does self-resonating flywheel exist?

It's simply meant to give you insight into a self-resonating coil.  What is resonance?  I can tell you from experience that many people use the term without even knowing what it means.  Resonance is energy cycling back and forth between two complimentary energy storage mechanisms.  In a coil it is the inductance and the self-capacitance when the coil is self-resonating.  In a flywheel it is the moment of inertia and the spring associated with the deformation of the metal when the flywheel is self-resonating.  All flywheels can self-resonate and in real life that is almost always a condition that is to be avoided.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 04, 2017, 08:27:37 PM
Dear MileHigh.

On the contrary, I don't think there was a point to be missed.

Your flywheel ceased to be a " Flywheel " the moment it stopped rotating. IMO your analogy is more akin to a mechanical oscillator.

From my perspective any flywheel that's rotating at a fixed speed ( doesn't matter what speed ) is resonant. My reasoning ? The flywheel, once up to speed requires far less energy than it took to get there.

Kind regards,  Graham.

Sorry, but the analogy was stated specifically to compare a self-resonating coil with a self-resonating flywheel.  A coil is not really fulfilling the function of a coil when no current is passing through it and instead it is simply self-resonating.  Likewise a flywheel is not really fulfilling the function of a flywheel when it is not spinning and instead it is simply self-resonating.  However, both cases deserve to be studied and there is information to be gleamed from understanding them.

The study is much more applicable to mechanical flywheels.  Take the case where a gear is spinning and a clutch engages to effectively knock the gear up to a higher RPM with a strong impulse.  The gear will self-resonate momentarily from the strong impulse that knocks it up to a higher RPM while it is still spinning.  Excessive vibrations from these impulses could reduce the life of the gear from metal fatigue.

Nope, a spinning flywheel is not resonating and doesn't meet the definition of resonance.  Same thing when you have DC current flowing through a coil, there is no resonance.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 04, 2017, 08:52:13 PM
I'll just leave this here for anyone who cares:

Gyroscopic Primer by Prof Eric Laithwaite (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OpCEJxO6V9g)

Dave

This discussion is not about the angular momentum of a gyroscope and how it responds when you try to change the orientation.  This discussion is about the energy dynamics of a self-resonating coil and the equivalent self-resonating flywheel.  The stuff about the angular momentum is a completely different discussion.

Note again that you don't even have to consider the magnetic field and internal electric field of the self-resonating coil.  The process of vector addition for the magnetic field has been explained multiple times.  The vector addition concepts also apply to the electric field.  For a simple example of a self-resonating coil, or a coil with DC or AC current flowing through it, there is nothing special about the energy stored in the magnetic field.  I can see from what Evostars is reading that there is what appears to be a lots of pseudoscience mysticism associated with coils and the magnetic fields associated with coils.  IMO it's just pulp to capture eyeballs and sell books, downloads, and DVDs and make a living for yourself.

Yes we have evolved from stars. We are stardust, and we all want a nice lush green garden to get back to.

The same people also said this:

You who are on the road
Must have a code that you can live by
And so become yourself
Because the past is just a good-bye.

Teach your children well,
Their father's hell did slowly go by,
And feed them on your dreams
The one they picks, the one you'll know by.

Yes we can all dream.  But we also have a responsibility to teach ourselves and teach others the real truth so that we can go out and make the world a better place.  It's a code of honour and responsibility and respect for ourselves and for others in the world.  In other words, learn and respect the truth and reject the lies and the crap that we have to deal with every day.  You need to amass enough knowledge to be able to discern between the truth and the junk.  It's not easy, but one would hope that you would want to try.

MileHigh

CNN caught lying red-handed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ihr7z9P_xaQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ihr7z9P_xaQ)

CNN caught in a double-lie:  She says that "(CNN) inadvertently and wrongly characterized."  There was nothing inadvertent about it.  They intentionally edited a clip to completely change the message that someone was saying.  It is absolutely obscene that they did that.  And the only reason they apologized for their lying is because other ordinary people were recording the same event on their cellphones and posted the truth on YouTube.  Take the Red Pill.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: NRamaswami on April 04, 2017, 10:35:44 PM
Dear Mile High

I requested you to explain your theory and if you have a working circuit I again request you to post it. I have received no response and you have moved to seelf resonating flywheel.

Please I again request you to respond.

Regards

Ramaswami



Sure I would be happy to explain this to you again.  Typically high-frequency voltage travels down the single wire.  However, with no current flow you cannot transfer any AC power into the load.  So the question is how do you get current to flow when there is no apparent current loop in the circuit?  As we know, for current to flow, there must be a loop.

We also know that there exists so-called "stray" (a.k.a. parasitic) capacitance everywhere.  A capacitor is just two conducting plates separated by a distance.  Let's look at a trivial example.  Suppose you are outside in your back yard.  Let's say there is an insulating plastic lawn chair that you are sitting in and your feet are not touching the ground.  We know that the ground is conductive and there is always some moisture in the ground that helps it become more conductive.  We also know the human body is basically salty water, and so the human body is conductive.

Therefore, when you sit on an insulating plastic chair in your back yard with your feet not touching the ground we can say that there is a measurable capacitance between your body and the ground.  It may be very small, perhaps 100 pF, but it is there and it is measurable.  In reality, there is stray or parasitic capacitance everywhere.

It is this stray capacitance that allows AC current to conduct in a current loop that allows for so-called "single wire power transmission."

Here is a typical circuit current loop:

<earth ground> ---> <stray capacitor #1> ---> <high frequency AC signal generator> ---> <load> ---> <stray capacitor #2> ---> <back to earth ground>

When you do a "single wire power transmission" experiment there are typically two "invisible" stray capacitors that allow AC current to flow.  Therefore the load sees both voltage and current and therefore AC power gets transferred into the load.  Small neon lights and LEDs require very little power to light up and that's why you often see them lit in experiments like this.

This is a fairly straightforward concept that should be understood by people interested in experimenting with electronics.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 04, 2017, 11:43:36 PM
I'll just leave this here for anyone who cares:


Gyroscopic Primer by Prof Eric Laithwaite (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OpCEJxO6V9g)


Dave

Thanks Dave, very really good video . Is not like i ear sometimes some people say that learn in youtube only make persons dumb "DumbTube" . :)

Thanks


Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 05, 2017, 10:54:48 AM
I'll just leave this here for anyone who cares:


Gyroscopic Primer by Prof Eric Laithwaite (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OpCEJxO6V9g)


Dave
Thanks, gread vid. watched it last night.  interesting what a gyroscope does with weight.
but i cant see an anology with a oscilating bifilar coil.  its not alternating, it looks more like Dc. constant velocity (and slowing down).
still the current is pulsed through a spiral coil inward or outward.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 05, 2017, 11:59:04 AM
Well ,
I received this from Gary Vesperman ,an Old Timer in the FE world ,Apparently there is a "TF"conference in Moscow
and Peng Gao's work and others are being discussed .
Snip
Peng Gao's torsion field paper

 paper is in the following link:
http://vixra.org/pdf/1607.0130v1.pdf

Abstract—Scalar wave was found and used at first by Nikola
Tesla in his wireless energy transmission experiment. Prof.K.Meyl
extended the Maxwell equation and found the lost scalar wave
part. The scalar wave theory proposed by Prof.K.Meyl indicates
that the torsion field is the nature of scalar wave. This work
attempts to detect the torsion field nature of scalar wave generated
by the dual Tesla coil system, using the torsion balance consisting
of a wooden frame. The result is positive and two kinds of torsion
field including left-handed and right-handed are detected in dual
Tesla coil system.

snip
II. DESCRIPTION OF DEVICES AND METHODOLOGY
In this work, the Phase-Conjugate-Resonator consists of two
standard pancake Tesla coils
, two wooden frames in different
size, and some auxiliary objects were used. In this section,
it will be discussed in three parts: the Phase-Conjugate-
Resonator, the methodology and the full configuration of hardware.
-----------------------------------------

Gary is a great fellow and a champion of the hazards of wireless Wifi in the western united states [many worldwide studies showing this newer stronger Wifi and its dangers to Children and others.

respectfully
Chet K



Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: web000x on April 05, 2017, 01:16:09 PM
Thanks, gread vid. watched it last night.  interesting what a gyroscope does with weight.
but i cant see an anology with a oscilating bifilar coil.  its not alternating, it looks more like Dc. constant velocity (and slowing down).
still the current is pulsed through a spiral coil inward or outward.


I am not 100% sure of the correlations.  But there is something about gyroscopes having an orthogonal relationship that reminds me of the workings of electricity.  My mind is open..


Dave


PS. If Newman was able to build self motoring devices from applying gyroscopic concepts to his machines, the thought must not be dismissed.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 05, 2017, 02:11:29 PM
Dear Mile High

I requested you to explain your theory and if you have a working circuit I again request you to post it. I have received no response and you have moved to seelf resonating flywheel.

Please I again request you to respond.

Regards

Ramaswami

The theory was pretty much explained.  There are hundreds of YouTube clips that show LEDs and neons being lit from "one wire."  There are many circuits that generate high-frequency high-voltage AC.  You can Google search and YouTube search on this.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 05, 2017, 02:50:47 PM
Thanks Dave, very really good video . Is not like i ear sometimes some people say that learn in youtube only make persons dumb "DumbTube" . :)

Thanks

Nelson Rocha

I think Carroll was just complaining about the fact that many people interested in free energy look towards the wrong people on YouTube.

In fact, there are thousands of legitimate clips about electronics from hundreds of presenters.

Here is a sample:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_fDlJXX9UI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_fDlJXX9UI)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKLKoPMaIsQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKLKoPMaIsQ)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrRmihdF52o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrRmihdF52o)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yk4C24N5qQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yk4C24N5qQ)

A lot of these clips require that you have an understanding of basic calculus:  The derivative of sine is cosine, the integral of cosine is negative sine.  This makes many people run away from the legitimate information.

You have probably read so many discussions about transformers.  One of the clips I linked to goes over the model for a transformer and how it works with inductive and capacitive loads, see the attached image.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: NRamaswami on April 05, 2017, 02:58:13 PM
So you post your theories based on youtube videos done by others..And your advice is to google for the circuits that can produce High voltage and High Frequency AC and again your theories are based on this and not on direct personal handson experimental knowledge..And you think you can put advice. Amazing.

In India we have a story of a monk who was requested to advice a young boy addicted to Sugar and sweets. The Monk refused to advice and gave the advice only after six months to the boy who instantly followed. The monk explained that to give this advice he had to first control himself and avoid taking sweets for only then it will have an impact. hmm..times are far far different now.

The theory was pretty much explained.  There are hundreds of YouTube clips that show LEDs and neons being lit from "one wire."  There are many circuits that generate high-frequency high-voltage AC.  You can Google search and YouTube search on this.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 05, 2017, 03:07:12 PM
 NRamaswami

maybe what you seek is here
experiments with scalar waves resonance and Pancake coils
http://vixra.org/pdf/1607.0130v1.pdf   [from post #372 today]

if our discussions are kept "proper" we could probably invite guests here [above link]
or even do experiments to explore these claims ?

respectfully
Chet k

Ps
RE Milehigh
he spent plenty of time on the bench ,once you know how to walk or run
it really doesn't need more "study" but it does qualify you to help others who are just learning .

just one mans opinion
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 05, 2017, 05:01:58 PM
Well ,
I received this from Gary Vesperman ,an Old Timer in the FE world ,Apparently there is a "TF"conference in Moscow
and Peng Gao's work and others are being discussed .
Snip
Peng Gao's torsion field paper

 paper is in the following link:
http://vixra.org/pdf/1607.0130v1.pdf (http://vixra.org/pdf/1607.0130v1.pdf)

Abstract—Scalar wave was found and used at first by Nikola
Tesla in his wireless energy transmission experiment. Prof.K.Meyl
extended the Maxwell equation and found the lost scalar wave
part. The scalar wave theory proposed by Prof.K.Meyl indicates
that the torsion field is the nature of scalar wave. This work
attempts to detect the torsion field nature of scalar wave generated
by the dual Tesla coil system, using the torsion balance consisting
of a wooden frame. The result is positive and two kinds of torsion
field including left-handed and right-handed are detected in dual
Tesla coil system.

snip
II. DESCRIPTION OF DEVICES AND METHODOLOGY
In this work, the Phase-Conjugate-Resonator consists of two
standard pancake Tesla coils
, two wooden frames in different
size, and some auxiliary objects were used. In this section,
it will be discussed in three parts: the Phase-Conjugate-
Resonator, the methodology and the full configuration of hardware.
-----------------------------------------

Gary is a great fellow and a champion of the hazards of wireless Wifi in the western united states [many worldwide studies showing this newer stronger Wifi and its dangers to Children and others.

respectfully
Chet K

Chet, there are many things wrong with the "experiments" described in that paper.  I put "experiments" in quotes because, as is typical, they are not actually experiments but rather are demonstrations of an effect. No proper control experiments were performed and so, the demonstrations of the noted effects are not able to assign causality. That is, the rotations observed in the demonstrations cannot be definitely assigned to "torsion fields". In fact I have a strong suspicion that the observed rotations are actually caused by the very same phenomenon that I demonstrate in my "low hanging fruit" videos.

Vixra is a site for self-publishing non-peer-reviewed papers that do not even rise to the standard of the Arxiv pre-publication website.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 05, 2017, 05:12:49 PM
So you post your theories based on youtube videos done by others..And your advice is to google for the circuits that can produce High voltage and High Frequency AC and again your theories are based on this and not on direct personal handson experimental knowledge..And you think you can put advice. Amazing.

In India we have a story of a monk who was requested to advice a young boy addicted to Sugar and sweets. The Monk refused to advice and gave the advice only after six months to the boy who instantly followed. The monk explained that to give this advice he had to first control himself and avoid taking sweets for only then it will have an impact. hmm..times are far far different now.

In India there are many stories about many different things. There are god-men who can manifest vibhuti from their fingertips and make cheap watches and rings appear out of nowhere. There are fakirs who can sit for hours three feet in the air, just leaning on a simple staff. There are monks with rotten teeth and diabetes. Can you arrange an interview with your formerly sweets-addicted monk for us?

Mile High is a "monk" who long ago dealt with his "sweets" and so is in a good position to give theoretical advice. He has already explained to you how HF HV circuits can light up LEDs and other bulbs with "one wire" by taking advantage of the inevitable capacitive coupling to ground. He does not need to show you _his_ circuits that perform this way... it should be sufficient for you to see _my_ circuits that do these things, or the circuits of countless others demonstrated on YouTube. Or even your own circuits.

I don't have to perform the experiment myself to understand that if I jump off a ten story building flapping my arms and tweeting like a bird, the results will not be favourable. An examination of relevant theory and the "experiments" and experiences of others are sufficient. Although I think some people here would like to see me perform that experiment for myself!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 05, 2017, 05:25:54 PM
I think Carroll was just complaining about the fact that many people interested in free energy look towards the wrong people on YouTube.

In fact, there are thousands of legitimate clips about electronics from hundreds of presenters.

Here is a sample:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_fDlJXX9UI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_fDlJXX9UI)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKLKoPMaIsQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKLKoPMaIsQ)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrRmihdF52o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrRmihdF52o)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yk4C24N5qQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yk4C24N5qQ)

A lot of these clips require that you have an understanding of basic calculus:  The derivative of sine is cosine, the integral of cosine is negative sine.  This makes many people run away from the legitimate information.

You have probably read so many discussions about transformers.  One of the clips I linked to goes over the model for a transformer and how it works with inductive and capacitive loads, see the attached image.

MileHigh


MileHigh ,

I have not talked about, in any particular person,
I just keep in my memory the "DumbTube" word, because I found grace, to illustrate the idea that we are not able to learn in by youtube .

I also did not say that everything we see on youtube is valid information, but the problem in my perspective, is that we can not include everything in the same "bag" because there are capable and serious people who share very valid information .
You yourself recurrently use examples taken from youtube, and I'm sorry if I'm being unfair at what I'm going to say, but  I've never seen anything practical done by you like a simple circuit to be evaluated from others persons .
Maybe my inattention, and if so, my apologies.

Myself already share some years ago some diagrams of some of my circuits , that simple not evaluated by the most people only because considerations like you do sometimes; the doubting minority, who doubted and gave the opportunity to verify for themselves in a practical meaning , found something different than would be expected .

Did i try impose something to that people ? Not . I just give a chance to people knows or not other perspective  , my perspective , and is lawful, that those who do not agree do not evaluate them , i respect this , but without aggression or impose anything .

The wisdom, is of the one who knows how to listen and filter the good content of the less good, and comprises both sides to arrive at a final and profitable conclusion. Otherwise persons like Nikola Tesla , or even Prof Eric Laithwaite will not have so much critical in their work .

What story can tell us about the novel persons and researchers that disagree in their own time, of already implemented ideas in general by scientific community ? Yes we know what happen to that poor guys ... Even with such high value information that they left in their legacy.
Sometimes we need several years to "real and carved in stone laws" be replaced by new reformulations and improved of that same laws, and that already happen more than one time , and will continue for sure happen.
This forum being a space for discussion about alternative research,it should be an example not of imposition but of healthy debate, something that hardly happens, because systematically, when some matter is discussed outside the normal and agreed-upon lines, pressure is immediately felt for total discrediting and seen as unfounded information.

I just ear most of times : Probe your claims ! No one need to probe nothing to no one , indeed discuss in a health ambient the bad and good points without , showing altruism egocentric and lack of consideration people's work and effort, even if it is not valid in the eyes of others.
That call's RESPECT.

Anyone could search youtube channels like NPTEL, STANFORD, MIT OCW, CALTECH and much others, to learn "carved in stone information" , but the opposite will not happen, because in this channels you wont find any single information about any "alternative" thoughts or ideas that we find in this forum shared by people , otherwise what is the meaning to that forum call Overunity ?
In my perspective, this forum should  be to  discuss alternative ideas, even some of this ideas could not feet to what some  people consider right or not .

That is my perspective , and it will be perfect normal that you or even all the world disagree, and even that i will maintain my ideas .
 Not all people are so incompetent in this forum, even though they have the amateur label that they refuse to learn with "high degree teachers" .

This is  questioning, experimenting, observing, and digesting information, and then comparing with current laws to understand what is different, or wrong , not only because i or you say that others need to believe in a "blind" mode and make that like a irrefutable opinion .

Best luck to you


Nelson Rocha



 
 


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 05, 2017, 05:27:45 PM
And as far as Laithwaite and gyroscopes are concerned.... he himself acknowledged, before he died, that he was simply wrong about many of his claims made in that Christmas lecture. You can even see, by careful observation in that video, some of his errors. I have done considerable experimentation with forced precession of gyroscopes myself, as have other real scientists. Unfortunately there is no real weight loss available from forced precession, but there are some very interesting effects that can be seen and that will definitely fool the hopeful into believing all kinds of things that aren't really true. Yes, the closest thing to an actual antigravity experience I have seen was in one of my own forced-precession experimental devices. But no, the device as a whole did not "lose weight" vertically or produce reactionless thrust horizontally, and neither did the combination of Laithwaite+gyroscope wheel in his own demonstrations. In his demos the effort to lift the spinning wheel under forced precession is transferred from his arms only, to the rest of his body mainly including his legs.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 05, 2017, 05:51:07 PM
By the way... in case anyone actually cares.... my "coil current direction" demonstrations posted pages ago also work just the same way when "Tesla Bifilar Pancake" coils are used.

I finally found 2 of my own TBFP coils buried under the detritus in my lab storage spaces to test them in the demonstration. Because they use much less wire and have no inductance-increasing cores they have smaller inductances (under 1 mH, about 4 ohms) and less DC resistance than the small relay coil (about 40 mH, about 45 ohms) I used for the YT videos, hence they store less energy in their magnetic field, which means the LED flash brightness and duration is less when the power is disconnected, but the results from the test are qualitatively exactly the same. The current continues to flow _in the same direction_  as when power is on, and makes the LED flash just as when using the relay coil.

Of course "some of us" will not be surprised by this result. Others will apparently ignore it totally since it conflicts with their mis-pre-conceptions.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 05, 2017, 05:59:19 PM
Nelson, you said
Quote
This forum being a space for discussion about alternative research,it should be an example not of imposition but of healthy debate, something that hardly happens, because systematically, when some matter is discussed outside the normal and agreed-upon lines, pressure is immediately felt for total discrediting and seen as unfounded information.

This works both ways, as we have seen lately. When someone presents "information" or an "opinion" or a wild off-the-wall claim that is unsupported by experimental evidence and someone else comes in with a factual correction, checkable outside references and experiments of their own to demonstrate that the unsupported "information" or "opinion" is flat-out wrong.... you see all kinds of resistance to that, name-calling, ignoring, and even calls for "banning" made by persons who have never deigned to present a single experiment of their own. What part of that attitude represents healthy debate?

Where, for example, is the "healthy debate" about my demonstrations that coil current does not reverse when power is interrupted? Where are the retractions or refutations from those who _still_ claim that it does, in spite of all evidence, theoretical references and actual demonstrations that it does not reverse?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 05, 2017, 06:09:22 PM
Nelson, you said
This works both ways, as we have seen lately. When someone presents "information" or an "opinion" or a wild off-the-wall claim that is unsupported by experimental evidence and someone else comes in with a factual correction, checkable outside references and experiments of their own to demonstrate that the unsupported "information" or "opinion" is flat-out wrong.... you see all kinds of resistance to that, name-calling, ignoring, and even calls for "banning" made by persons who have never deigned to present a single experiment of their own. What part of that attitude represents healthy debate?

Where, for example, is the "healthy debate" about my demonstrations that coil current does not reverse when power is interrupted? Where are the retractions or refutations from those who _still_ claim that it does, in spite of all evidence, theoretical references and actual demonstrations that it does not reverse?

@Tinselkoala,

The topic of this thread is: "The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency". The direction of current when power is interupted is off topic; However, since you forced this other issue, maybe you can tell us which direction current travels in the "Ruhmkopff Coil Secondary Winding", when power is interupted in the primary?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 05, 2017, 06:16:01 PM
NRamaswami said
Quote
You seem to be amazingly well funded ...

Hah! You get a ROFL for that one! Actually exactly the opposite is true. Except for a couple of projects years ago, I have been amazingly NOT funded at all.

Which is why I cannot afford to buy more breadboards or special wire or a better video camera or even a few transistors here and there. My days of gainful employment or outside funding are apparently long gone. For example many of my coil projects use #27 magnet wire from a 20-pound spool that I bought from a surplus store in 2002 and which is just about empty by now. I have received a few very nice gifts of equipment over the years, like the Rigol scope that my friends crowd-funded for me several years ago, and a Fluke 87-III DMM that the late MarkE sent me, along with a few other tools, but my miniature machine shop is still "missing in action" out of my reach.

I think many people are probably hoping that I'll quit when the wire finally runs out. And maybe I will.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 05, 2017, 06:18:45 PM
Nelson, you said
This works both ways, as we have seen lately. When someone presents "information" or an "opinion" or a wild off-the-wall claim that is unsupported by experimental evidence and someone else comes in with a factual correction, checkable outside references and experiments of their own to demonstrate that the unsupported "information" or "opinion" is flat-out wrong.... you see all kinds of resistance to that, name-calling, ignoring, and even calls for "banning" made by persons who have never deigned to present a single experiment of their own. What part of that attitude represents healthy debate?

Where, for example, is the "healthy debate" about my demonstrations that coil current does not reverse when power is interrupted? Where are the retractions or refutations from those who _still_ claim that it does, in spite of all evidence, theoretical references and actual demonstrations that it does not reverse?

Hi TK ,


You or no one can judge everyone in same manner and put all i same "bag" , i either not make that about you and your work, even i don't like your caustic way of talk most of the times to persons  , but you are a different "species" :) because yours answers are supported by your efforts in practical mean , show practical tests, ind other hand , some of tests that you show could not be the perfect example because your designs obey to your own data , and if you don't know others details data, some of your practical tests could have very different results from other experimenters .  I'm not referring at any particular test , just to Beef up .

The problem is that topic is already die much time ago , and now only it become in a "aggression" arena of talk and a disputed off egos, nothing more .
 I'm not defending anyone, unlike you did  , I think people are adults as much as necessary, to wield their arguments for themselves.


All the best to you .

Nelson Rocha 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 05, 2017, 06:21:56 PM
@Tinselkoala,

The topic of this thread is: "The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency". The direction of current when power is interupted is off topic; However, since you forced this other issue, maybe you can tell us which direction current travels in the "Ruhmkopff Coil Secondary Winding", when power is interupted in the primary?

No, the issue was "forced" by people who claimed otherwise and refused to examine the evidence presented when making their demonstrably false claims. I did not bring up the issue but when I encounter... shall we say... BS, I will often jump in with actual facts and experiments or demonstrations of my own to correct the errors that other people make and assert.

 And I'm still waiting for some evidence from you that scrapyard magnets are wound using the Tesla Bifilar winding.

The issue of what happens in a _secondary_ coil when the _primary_ is pulsed is completely answered by Faraday's law of induction. Of course it takes some education in the Calculus to understand it. Feel free to provide some demonstrations of your own to make your point. If you can, that is.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 05, 2017, 10:02:36 PM
No, the issue was "forced" by people who claimed otherwise and refused to examine the evidence presented when making their demonstrably false claims. I did not bring up the issue but when I encounter... shall we say... BS, I will often jump in with actual facts and experiments or demonstrations of my own to correct the errors that other people make and assert.

 And I'm still waiting for some evidence from you that scrapyard magnets are wound using the Tesla Bifilar winding.

The issue of what happens in a _secondary_ coil when the _primary_ is pulsed is completely answered by Faraday's law of induction. Of course it takes some education in the Calculus to understand it. Feel free to provide some demonstrations of your own to make your point. If you can, that is.

@Tinselkola,

The Ruhmkopff secondary generates A.C. current as everyone knows. The issue is the definition of "Negative Current". Your LED is a D.C. bulb therefore it flickers because it can only use one half of the current. We're dealing with semantics. I explained eighteen months ago to Woopyjump that the magnetic field collapse "Reversed the Current" and Citfa crawled all over me and got me "Eighty Sixed" for a year and a half. My question to you is; Is Positive current the reverse of negative current? So what if the current chooses the same pathway.

Conradelectro asked me how a coil could store a charge when the wire ends are not connected to anything. One might ask the same question of a capacitor after the power source's disconnected!

Shocking both the single wire coil and the bifilar results in different stored charges as Tesla explains. The bifilar resonance causes the coil to hold on to it's charge longer. Shocking the bifilar on a ferrite core actually causes the charge to increase spontaneously untill the ferrite core transmutes into a permanent magnet. Pulsing a bifilar over a pile of scrap magnetizes the scrap and the scrap attracts itself to the Iron plate under the coil.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 06, 2017, 01:03:06 AM
So, you evidently didn't watch my second coil current direction video. Or perhaps you simply didn't understand it, since it does not fit in with your mis-pre-conceptions. So I'll post the link again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X66foYixu9Y

You were wrong before and you are still wrong now.

You are the champion at misrepresenting my work and the work of others, so it comes as no surprise that you misrepresent the work of Tesla, and even misrepresent the construction and use of scrapyard magnets.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 06, 2017, 02:20:04 AM
So, you evidently didn't watch my second coil current direction video. Or perhaps you simply didn't understand it, since it does not fit in with your mis-pre-conceptions. So I'll post the link again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X66foYixu9Y

You were wrong before and you are still wrong now.

You are the champion at misrepresenting my work and the work of others, so it comes as no surprise that you misrepresent the work of Tesla, and even misrepresent the construction and use of scrapyard magnets.

@Tinselkoala,

You're just an over grown garbage scrounger. You can't define "Negative Current".

Shock charge your two coils and see which one picks the most material up after a time lapse. This is where the bifilar coil develops twice the strength compared to the single wire. I hammered seven years on you and you still can't understand what the hell I'm talking about.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 06, 2017, 04:05:48 AM
This is where the bifilar coil develops twice the strength compared to the single wire.

No, in fact the bifilar coil does not develop twice the strength of magnetic field as compared to a single-wire coil with the same number of turns.  This argument is a revolving-door at this point in time.

The reason it does not develop twice the magnetic field strength is because the strength of the magnetic field is proportional to the ampere-turns of the coil.

Here are Conrad's two clips that I helped him with from three years ago that prove that the magnetic field strength is the same:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCEqnX1JsGw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvDUAcC1hbk

In discussing general issues on the forum, one of its weaknesses is that people can post what is obviously incorrect information and many people that know the information is incorrect will say nothing.  There is only a handful of people that will speak up and make corrections.

It makes me think of the phenomenon in Nature where migrating moose get confused when crossing a river. The calves are very young and some of them can't keep up with the cows when they swim across the river.  So the cows end up swimming back to the original shore to try to find their calves.  What ends up happening is a mass confusion with mother cows swimming back and forth across the river for hours in a desperate attempt to find their young.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 06, 2017, 05:33:31 AM
@Tinselkoala,

You're just an over grown garbage scrounger. You can't define "Negative Current".

Shock charge your two coils and see which one picks the most material up after a time lapse. This is where the bifilar coil develops twice the strength compared to the single wire. I hammered seven years on you and you still can't understand what the hell I'm talking about.

You are funny. It must be terribly frustrating to be you. Proven wrong over and over, making stuff up out of thin air, misrepresenting everyone's work, posting comment after comment at EF with nobody responding... why don't you try holding your breath until you turn blue and stomping your feet. Maybe you'll get some attention then.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 06, 2017, 01:41:13 PM
@Tinselkoala,

.......... You can't define "Negative Current".

Maybe not .... but for sure knows what is negative resistance, or magneto-electrostatic energy  hope so... or maybe otherwize i  will ear that is only "Pseudo science"
Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 06, 2017, 01:52:54 PM
Negative current is an imaginary fiction created by those that have active imagination and no real learning.  Current is neither negative or positive.  Voltage can be negative or positive.  But current is just a way of expressing how much electricity is moving through a wire or other conductor.  Trying to define negative current is like trying to define negative gallons.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 06, 2017, 01:54:56 PM
Seems a race is in order here/competition ?

most here don't understand what the claims are ?

if you truly have something special ..it should be able to do something {anything} which standard science can't do

if its a magnetic effect ?it should pull more with less power
a test would be the guy who picks up the most with the least input [WINS

if its a levitation claim
same test
etc etc etc
no need to divulge any secret technologies ,just run a black box test

make a claim and prove it ??
no need for us to see how you are doing it at all
just power in and the claim

a wireless transmission claim ?
very easy to do a contest there

Imagine that ,
you want change in the world ??
be that change and live by example !!

a competition !!

respectfully
Chet k
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 06, 2017, 01:55:52 PM
Negative current is an imaginary fiction created by those that have active imagination and no real learning.  Current is neither negative or positive.  Voltage can be negative or positive.  But current is just a way of expressing how much electricity is moving through a wire or other conductor.

How ... if you say we should believe ..... in fact when you loose your imagination you loose everything...

Nelson Rocha 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 06, 2017, 02:07:43 PM
Seems a race is in order here/competition ?

most here don't understand what the claims are ?

if you truly have something special ..it should be able to do something {anything} which standard science can't do

if its a magnetic effect ?it should pull more with less power
a test would be the guy who picks up the most with the least input [WINS

if its a levitation claim
same test
etc etc etc
no need to divulge any secret technologies ,just run a black box test

make a claim and prove it ??
no need for us to see how you are doing it at all
just power in and the claim

a wireless transmission claim ?
very easy to do a contest there

Imagine that ??

respectfully
Chet k

Ramset ,

That is not a contest , ether a competition to me .I did not any "claims" and my work are proved in real world by industries, and judged by electric Eng not by me :) ,in that way seems very fair and impartial,  and i'm not waiting or ask to deserve any validation from no one on this forum . That is clear ?
If i'm search any support to any of my work , it will make more sense i made what you are ask , otherwise not make sense . Sounds logical to you?
If you have interest in what i do, for sure you will find what you want ;)

Respectfully

Nelson Rocha
 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 06, 2017, 02:24:31 PM
Hi Nelson,

Let me explain where I am coming from.  I firmly believe we should be seeking new things.  I have been doing OU experiments and research for 10 years now.  There are some on here that don't believe OU or free energy can even be possible.  I am NOT one of those.

I have strong background in electronics.  And when I see someone posting what I know is foolishness I am going to post against that.  WHY, you may ask.  Because I have seen what happens when people blindly follow those that are spouting garbage.  If you wanted to waste a lot of time you can go to the Energetic Forum and find a thread there about an asynchronous motor project.  Several of us tried to get some real answers about this project.  We were ridiculed and cussed out for daring to question the project.  Several people spent several HUNDRED dollars building this special motor that only ended up burning up and drawing huge amounts of current.  Were those of us with electronic backgrounds wrong to question that project?  If we had been listened to, a lot of people would have saved a lot of money.

If you were a highly trained auto mechanic and I came to you and told you I have discovered you can make the engine run better by changing the air in the tires would you listen with an open mind or would you immediately try to tell me I didn't understand about engines.  I know this is a ridiculous example but a lot of what I see on this forum and others is just as ridiculous to those of us that have worked in electronics for years.

I will continue to search for a way to create OU or free energy.  And I know I have to keep an open mind about the possibilities.  But I am not going to be so open minded my brains fall out.

Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 06, 2017, 02:28:44 PM
Most here haven't a clue what you are trying to show.
everything you have shown is not unusual , but one question I do have
you point to a white power box or ?? in you vid with the water on the coil[I think]
I cannot see what it says or reads there ?

maybe that is where your path is obvious ?
and I missed it??

How can we look when we don't even know your claim ??
or have a frame of reference for comparison ??

regarding "Interested Engineers" looking at things as a claim ?
I see this every day ??

the claim would be nice to know ?


respectfully
Chet K


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 06, 2017, 02:58:11 PM
hereby I claim post #400
hihi
 ;D
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 06, 2017, 03:28:09 PM
Negative current is an imaginary fiction created by those that have active imagination and no real learning.  Current is neither negative or positive.  Voltage can be negative or positive.  But current is just a way of expressing how much electricity is moving through a wire or other conductor.  Trying to define negative current is like trying to define negative gallons.

Lawerance Tsueng is about 10,000 times brighter then you; You stinking fraud. Stop misrepresenting basic fundamentals as though you can outshine his "Search Light" mind with your dead lighting bug luminescence. You are dumber than pig shit.

Every amp meter has minus sign!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 06, 2017, 04:04:40 PM
evostar
there was a day here where Allen's post above would add 100 pages of flame wars in 5 minutes
a better goal would be

what have we accomplished in these 400 posts ??

seems we have one opportunity with Allen to investigate a claim , if he can bite the lip and post a claim or experiment to bolster
his claim.??

Allen ??
cussing , swearing and name calling makes your argument look weak .
do you have a simple "proof of concept"

Chet K


 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 06, 2017, 04:22:32 PM
evostar
there was a day here where Allen's post above would add 100 pages of flame wars in 5 minutes
a better goal would be

what have we accomplished in these 400 posts ??

seems we have one opportunity with Allen to investigate a claim , if he can bite the lip and post a claim or experiment to bolster
his claim.??

Allen ??
cussing , swearing and name calling makes your argument look weak .
do you have a simple "proof of concept"

Chet K

                                                                                                                                                                           
"When the magnet is moved away, current flows in the opposite direction in the solenoid".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HyORmBip-w
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 06, 2017, 04:41:14 PM
Hi Nelson,

Let me explain where I am coming from.  I firmly believe we should be seeking new things.  I have been doing OU experiments and research for 10 years now.  There are some on here that don't believe OU or free energy can even be possible.  I am NOT one of those.

I have strong background in electronics.  And when I see someone posting what I know is foolishness I am going to post against that.  WHY, you may ask.  Because I have seen what happens when people blindly follow those that are spouting garbage.  If you wanted to waste a lot of time you can go to the Energetic Forum and find a thread there about an asynchronous motor project.  Several of us tried to get some real answers about this project.  We were ridiculed and cussed out for daring to question the project.  Several people spent several HUNDRED dollars building this special motor that only ended up burning up and drawing huge amounts of current.  Were those of us with electronic backgrounds wrong to question that project?  If we had been listened to, a lot of people would have saved a lot of money.

If you were a highly trained auto mechanic and I came to you and told you I have discovered you can make the engine run better by changing the air in the tires would you listen with an open mind or would you immediately try to tell me I didn't understand about engines.  I know this is a ridiculous example but a lot of what I see on this forum and others is just as ridiculous to those of us that have worked in electronics for years.

I will continue to search for a way to create OU or free energy.  And I know I have to keep an open mind about the possibilities.  But I am not going to be so open minded my brains fall out.

Respectfully,
Carroll


“Let me explain where I am coming from. I firmly believe we should be seeking new things. I have been doing OU experiments and research for 10 years now. “

Carrol , to me is not relevant where you came from , because you simple don't consider even where i come from  .

“There are some on here that don't believe OU or free energy can even be possible. I am NOT one of those.”

Carrol everything is energy, the  process  used to convert energy could be not  free , and i glad that you think that could be possible exist OU otherwise not make sense you private in this forum everyday .

“I have strong background in electronics. And when I see someone posting what I know is foolishness I am going to post against that.”

Is legitime that you made that for sure , and i respect otherwise what would become of us without freedom of expression?


 “Because I have seen what happens when people blindly follow those that are spouting garbage. If you wanted to waste a lot of time you can go to the Energetic Forum and find a thread there about an asynchronous motor project.”

I real don't understand the meaning of your sentence , Did i mentioned any thing about  asynchronous motor ? I do not remember make that sorry .
Are you try persuade me to leave this forum?
If this is the case, you should first think that this forum is not restricted to a small group, in addition I think that you have not been given authority to do so.
If you consider my presence uncomfortable, I suggest you talk to Stefan and relate the situation , in that way it will be more fair and impartial what may happen next.

 “Several people spent several HUNDRED dollars building this special motor that only ended up burning up and drawing huge amounts of current. Were those of us with electronic backgrounds wrong to question that project? If we had been listened to, a lot of people would have saved a lot of money.”

Sorry but where i put any diagram to replicate my present work or persuade to do something  ?
 My last circuit that i publish in this forum was almost 3 years when i work in opensource and with less then 10€ you or anyone could replicate them .
So where you sentence apply to me ? I simple don't understand .

“If you were a highly trained auto mechanic and I came to you and told you I have discovered you can make the engine run better by changing the air in the tires would you listen with an open mind or would you immediately try to tell me I didn't understand about engines. I know this is a ridiculous example but a lot of what I see on this forum and others is just as ridiculous to those of us that have worked in electronics for years.”

“ I agree with you , but for sure i will ask them way he think in that way to understand their reasons to say that  . About what you think is ridiculous that is other story ….

“I will continue to search for a way to create OU or free energy. And I know I have to keep an open mind about the possibilities. But I am not going to be so open minded my brains fall out.”

I respect your choice , It is up to each one to choose the path he takes, some choose the easiest path, others choose more winding paths, but it all boils down to a personal choice.


Respectfully,


Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 06, 2017, 04:51:27 PM
Most here haven't a clue what you are trying to show.
everything you have shown is not unusual , but one question I do have
you point to a white power box or ?? in you vid with the water on the coil[I think]
I cannot see what it says or reads there ?

maybe that is where your path is obvious ?
and I missed it??

How can we look when we don't even know your claim ??
or have a frame of reference for comparison ??

regarding "Interested Engineers" looking at things as a claim ?
I see this every day ??

the claim would be nice to know ?


respectfully
Chet K


“Most here haven't a clue what you are trying to show.”

Ramset , i’m not try show nothing , and the links that i post was in the context to answer MH .
I already say that i’m not working in Opensource so what is the doubt ?

“everything you have shown is not unusual , but one question I do have
you point to a white power box or ?? in you vid with the water on the coil[I think]
I cannot see what it says or reads there ?”

I use my youtube channel ony to record some of my tests nothing more , like i said before and to answer MH , i’m only able to light neon bulbs in one hand and that is the reason to i provide that links .

“How can we look when we don't even know your claim ??
or have a frame of reference for comparison ??”

I only share “details” with interested people when contact me personaly not widely .
I never make any particular claim, only that pancake coil have special properties , you should read back posts i dont have patiente to write everthing again .

“regarding "Interested Engineers" looking at things as a claim ?
I see this every day ??

the claim would be nice to know ?”

Ramset i work make system’s to industries , and sell “silly” ideas nothing more , and that is my real job that put money in my home , and in that way seems industries have lot of silly people .

Respectfully,


Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 06, 2017, 04:56:36 PM
citfta,

I forget say one thing , if you call Stefan to talk about my behavior, ask him why he included some of my videos in his playlist on this very forum.

respectfully

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 06, 2017, 05:00:39 PM
Nelson
I have read many posts and the "special properties" mentioned so far ?

don't seem special at all ?

I understand that what you have found to be special is corporate information and not for open source.

I was not asking for the secret ...not at all
I realize that sometimes a simple answer can give too much info in the corporate world.
I respect that.

I respect your business deals and your livelyhood [how you feed your family]
and would hope it continues well for you ,but to add that
I never said "silly" or intimated anything of the sort.

there are millions of dollars spent every minute around the world "hunting for anomalies"
Much of it goes up in smoke
some not so much [I would hope]

have a good Life

respectfully
Chet k
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 06, 2017, 05:03:58 PM
Here's a quote from a PM from citfa dated November 15 2015:   

"If you insist on attacking me after I only tried to help you then I WILL ask that you be banned from this site".

Here's the kind of help he's referring to:

Citfa;

"Negative current is an imaginary fiction".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 06, 2017, 05:10:00 PM
Nelson
I have read many posts and the "special properties" mentioned so far ?

don't seem special at all ?

I understand that what you have found to be special is corporate information and not for open source.

I was not asking for the secret ...not at all
I realize that sometimes a simple answer can give too much info in the corporate world.
I respect that.

I respect your business deals and your livelyhood [how you feed your family]
and would hope it continues well for you ,but to add that
I never said "silly" or intimated anything of the sort.

there are millions of dollars spent every minute around the world "hunting for anomalies"
Much of it goes up in smoke
some not so much [I would hope]

have a good Life

respectfully
Chet k

Ramset ,

I appreciate your words sincerely ,
And i did not say that you call "silly" to me , but  sometime some people use much worsts words , and is easy just read the posts and you see clearly what i'm talk about . You should not individualize my words .
And yes i try have a nice live , without hurt anyone , respect other persons and other opinions , and that give me lot of pleasure , have my live in that way .
I wish you all the best .

respectfully


Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 06, 2017, 05:12:10 PM
Allen
actually your behavior here bans you already[if you read terms of service agreement
VERY FIRST SENTENCE

why not just make a simple claim instead of posting movies and other peoples stuff.

Explain this {your interpretation]  Negative Current ??
show it in action [schematic all info to replicate]

?
@ Nelson
I know I never wrote Silly
but what you write about is called "research"

opinions don't matter [members here] in research.,

its just getting people [investors] to pay for it..

                                                                            OR


we do it here open source for free, we do that everyday here already.....

Thx
Chet
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 06, 2017, 05:27:43 PM

Nelson
I know I never wrote Silly
but what you write about is called "research"

opinions don't matter [members here] in research.,

its just getting people [investors] to pay for it..

Thx
Chet

Ramset ,
The investors only pay if you have something that work , when i talk investors i'm referring to some well-known companies in the market.
Clearly you do not know my work . To me the judges of my work is made by that same companies , and i assure to you that they are much more harder then any of critical  that i receive in this forum . That is the reason to i say that negative opinions from some particular elements, don't affect me . Did i i clarify my point of view ?
Why their opinions , normally in tone of aggression and in a not constructive way,  should be more valid then others from formed Eng of that company ?  They are much more clever then others ? i think not , sorry but is my opinion .

PS- I already share in opensource some of my diagrams did you test it ? Only very few do that , to those we replicate maybe they have a different perspective .

respectfully

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 06, 2017, 05:32:50 PM
I've been playing with 3 bifilar pancake coils, and with some result. But Im not shure how to interpret this result.
I dont know how to convert the time it takes to charge the capacitors, into a expression of power.

here is some data: 4x 6.3uF capacitors, charged to 900Vdc from 0V in 3 seconds. the question rises, how are the capacitors connected...
at one side, they are all connected together (parallel). But on the otherside, they are paired, and connected to diodes. 2 form the negative, and 2 form the positive.

Anyone got the answer?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 06, 2017, 05:33:54 PM

PS- I already share in opensource some of my diagrams did you test it ? Only very few do that , to those we replicate maybe they have a different perspective .

respectfully

Nelson Rocha
Hej i didnt know that! Where can i find these diagrams?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Grumage on April 06, 2017, 05:57:10 PM
Hej i didnt know that! Where can i find these diagrams?


Dear evostars.

I had a little fun with this one from Nelson.

https://youtu.be/m6lmd0HKxOw

As did a few others, we all found interesting/different results.    ;)

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: skycollection 1 on April 06, 2017, 06:28:15 PM
I have many years sutying the pancake coils and this is my last video about my "multifilar pancake coil", this consist in six groups of pancake coils, one group consist in six pancake coils connected in series, all the groups are isolated from each other and all the pancake coils are in parallel in the same place (in a PBC PIPE) in my experiment i am using my circuit JL94 with two transistors like the drawing diagram that i am presenting in my video, when i move a magnet in the centre the circuit and the coils "enters in self oscillation" and all the groups "induces" the current to the led bulbs with great intensity, i have connected to the circuit only one group of pancake coils, the other groups are "pickup coils".
this is the experiment...: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ln7AEpxMeY
Saludos from mexico, Jorge Rebolledo
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 06, 2017, 06:30:27 PM
                                                                                                                                                                           
"When the magnet is moved away, current flows in the opposite direction in the solenoid".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HyORmBip-w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HyORmBip-w)

Is that your "definition" of Negative Current?

Then you should be happy to admit, finally, that my demonstrations prove that there is NO "NEGATIVE CURRENT" or current flowing in the opposite direction when the magnetic field of a coil collapses when power is interrupted.

If you still refuse to acknowledge that you are wrong, please explain why the Blue LED flashes (showing current definitely flowing in same direction) but the Green LED does not flash (showing that current definitely does NOT flow in the opposite or reversed direction). 

Be sure to include in your explanation the fact that the Green LED actually has a lower Vfwd than the Blue LED, so is more sensitive.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 06, 2017, 07:27:43 PM
I have many years sutying the pancake coils and this is my last video about my "multifilar pancake coil", this consist in six groups of pancake coils, one group consist in six pancake coils connected in series, all the groups are isolated from each other and all the pancake coils are in parallel in the same place (in a PBC PIPE) in my experiment i am using my circuit JL94 with two transistors like the drawing diagram that i am presenting in my video, when i move a magnet in the centre the circuit and the coils "enters in self oscillation" and all the groups "induces" the current to the led bulbs with great intensity, i have connected to the circuit only one group of pancake coils, the other groups are "pickup coils".
this is the experiment...: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ln7AEpxMeY
Saludos from mexico, Jorge Rebolledo

Thanks for share Jorge i'm a fan of your work in last years .
All the best to you


Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 06, 2017, 07:33:42 PM


Dear evostars.

I had a little fun with this one from Nelson.

https://youtu.be/m6lmd0HKxOw

As did a few others, we all found interesting/different results.    ;)

Cheers Graham.

Hi dear Grumage ,
I didn't know that you replicate the circuit , and i thank by that because only very few people test it  . hope you like it and could help you learn some interesting aspects that circuit could show  .

Take careful , to avoid hear that you are using  super capacitors, disguised as normal capacitors, to the oscillations continue after power source be disconnected ;) myself hear thousands times that ;)

cheers

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 06, 2017, 07:51:16 PM
I think, Nelson Rocha's circuit (http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=2520.0) would deserve it's own thread - if anything else than because it doesn't contain pancake coil (according to its diagram (http://i.ytimg.com/vi/TjK6OlYO9Aw/hqdefault.jpg) this coil even isn't bifilar) and it's the only selfrunner (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY3Mr2pAErw) in the wild and also author communicating at overunity.com forum in this moment (i.e. of much higher importance than some abstract discussion and frog&mice battles about interpretation of well understood phenomena). For me it looks like Joule Thief circuit with ferroresonance overunity (http://overunity.com/15124/simplest-theory-of-overunity-devices-possible).
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Grumage on April 06, 2017, 07:52:35 PM
Hi dear Grumage ,
I didn't know that you replicate the circuit , and i thank by that because only very few people test it  . hope you like it and could help you learn some interesting aspects that circuit could show  .

Take careful , to avoid hear that you are using  super capacitors, disguised as normal capacitors, to the oscillations continue after power source be disconnected ;) myself hear thousands times that ;)

cheers

Nelson Rocha

Dear Nelson.

You're welcome and yes, I had some interesting times....... AND not a single supercap in sight !!  ;D

Maybe Dog One might chip in ?

For dear Mr. Koala.....

http://overunity.com/12736/kapanadze-cousin-dally-free-energy/msg481463/#msg481463

And a good quality photo from Zeitmaschine.....

Kind regards. Graham.

edit.. Spelling mistake.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 06, 2017, 08:06:46 PM
Dear Nelson.

Your welcome and yes, I had some interesting times....... AND not a single supercap in sight !!  ;D

Maybe Dog One might chip in ?

For dear Mr. Koala.....

http://overunity.com/12736/kapanadze-cousin-dally-free-energy/msg481463/#msg481463 (http://overunity.com/12736/kapanadze-cousin-dally-free-energy/msg481463/#msg481463)

And a good quality photo from Zeitmaschine.....

Kind regards. Graham.

Thanks for posting that clear schematic.

This may help you to understand your results (disconnecting the Base of the TIP122 and still seeing oscillations).

The TIP122, if genuine (there are many Chinese fakes of all kinds of transistors) is a Darlington NPN. I have attached the internal schematic of this transistor taken from the OnSemi data sheet.

And supercaps are absolutely not needed to keep an efficient JT circuit (which this appears to be, according to the schematic and your scopeshots) oscillating (without significant load) for a long time.

ETA: When you disconnected your power supply in that video there was quite a nice spark there. What do you think caused that spark?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 06, 2017, 08:26:31 PM
Here's a quote from a PM from citfa dated November 15 2015:   

"If you insist on attacking me after I only tried to help you then I WILL ask that you be banned from this site".

Here's the kind of help he's referring to:

Citfa;

"Negative current is an imaginary fiction".

As usual Synchro is so far from the truth it is funny.  The PM he posted is from 1 1/2 years ago and has nothing to do with his ridiculous claim there is negative current.  For reference here is the thread that caused me to send that PM.

http://overunity.com/16203/inductive-kickback/

 Anyone who takes the time to read it can clearly see I started it to help him understand about inductive kickback.  When he saw he was wrong then he started using profanity against everyone in that thread.  Flaming others is against forum rules.  However I did not have to follow through on my threat to attempt to get him banned as several more senior members notified admin of his poor behavior.  As a consequence he was NOT banned as he keeps insisting.  He was put on moderated status.  This means his posts had to be approved before they would be posted on the forum.

He then went to Energetic Forum and told a bunch of lies there about several of us.  He is his own worst enemy.  He refuses to learn and when shown he is wrong he resorts to name calling and profanity.  I will not waste anymore time on this subject.  I just felt the need to set the record straight for any newcomers that might read his ridiculous claims.

Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 06, 2017, 08:42:13 PM
As usual Synchro is so far from the truth it is funny.  The PM he posted is from 1 1/2 years ago and has nothing to do with his ridiculous claim there is negative current.  For reference here is the thread that caused me to send that PM.

http://overunity.com/16203/inductive-kickback/

 Anyone who takes the time to read it can clearly see I started it to help him understand about inductive kickback.  When he saw he was wrong then he started using profanity against everyone in that thread.  Flaming others is against forum rules.  However I did not have to follow through on my threat to attempt to get him banned as several more senior members notified admin of his poor behavior.  As a consequence he was NOT banned as he keeps insisting.  He was put on moderated status.  This means his posts had to be approved before they would be posted on the forum.

He then went to Energetic Forum and told a bunch of lies there about several of us.  He is his own worst enemy.  He refuses to learn and when shown he is wrong he resorts to name calling and profanity.  I will not waste anymore time on this subject.  I just felt the need to set the record straight for any newcomers that might read his ridiculous claims.

Carroll

You lasted for over 400 comments so far.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 06, 2017, 08:51:26 PM
I've been playing with 3 bifilar pancake coils, and with some result. But Im not shure how to interpret this result.
I dont know how to convert the time it takes to charge the capacitors, into a expression of power.

here is some data: 4x 6.3uF capacitors, charged to 900Vdc from 0V in 3 seconds. the question rises, how are the capacitors connected...
at one side, they are all connected together (parallel). But on the otherside, they are paired, and connected to diodes. 2 form the negative, and 2 form the positive.

Anyone got the answer?

You simply need to convert to "Joules". The Joule is one "watt second".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Grumage on April 06, 2017, 09:18:17 PM
Thanks for posting that clear schematic.

ETA: When you disconnected your power supply in that video there was quite a nice spark there. What do you think caused that spark?

Dear Mr. Koala.

You're welcome.

That PSU has literally been " to Hell and back " used in many environments, mainly damp ones, the Crock clips are rather rusty IMO it was just some Iron oxide burning off.

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 06, 2017, 09:21:36 PM
I think, Nelson Rocha's circuit (http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=2520.0) would deserve it's own thread - if anything else than because it doesn't contain pancake coil (according to its diagram (http://i.ytimg.com/vi/TjK6OlYO9Aw/hqdefault.jpg) this coil even isn't bifilar) and it's the only selfrunner (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY3Mr2pAErw) in the wild and also author communicating at overunity.com forum in this moment (i.e. of much higher importance than some abstract discussion and frog&mice battles about interpretation of well understood phenomena). For me it looks like Joule Thief circuit with ferroresonance overunity (http://overunity.com/15124/simplest-theory-of-overunity-devices-possible).
when i

Zephir , please don't put words that i did not say . I never say that circuit is a self running . I just say that circuit is interesting, to people that search the OU theme, and could be made easily  because is cheap to be made and could be observed interesting points , and that is one of the circuits that i share in this same forum when i'm working in opensource years ago nothing more .

That is only to show to some that sometimes ask me by my claims and about hi not opensource my work  that in other times if they want validate something they could easily do that, but  years ago .

Hope i being clear about that subject and my position , and i don't need any thread about me or any of my circuit's .
I share in pm even with you , because i don't need to publicity what i do or what i design in this moment , but people are free to try if want .

cheers

Nelson Rocha
 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 06, 2017, 11:11:50 PM
OK - if it's not self-running, which this circuit is supposed to be interesting with?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 06, 2017, 11:33:38 PM
OK - if it's not self-running, which this circuit is supposed to be interesting with?

Hi Zephir ,

I already  explain to you in PM what you could observe on that circuit, no is not a self runner , is only one of the circuits , that you could see interesting behaviors, if you don't want replicate them you could see the videos associated to them , Grumage share their own replication , but if you search , you will find other replications by other users even by myself  .
 I said that circuit should be used to study some interesting effects .
Like other circuits i made , i use them to study , and of course you or anyone are free to replicate them and see by yourself , and validate them because when i share them was in opensource , and in that way he still remain in same way .
The good new is that you don't need to spend much money to replicate them , but you are free to decide that .

cheers


Nelson Rocha   
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 06, 2017, 11:44:38 PM
You simply need to convert to "Joules". The Joule is one "watt second".
yes, the joules are easy to calculate. i guess its all parallel,  so about  10 joules in 3 seconds.

but Im interested in the power that puts the charge in the caps. its not linear,  at first there is a sudden great rise of voltage,  and then when it reaches its maximum voltage,  the voltage rise slows down.
so the current seems large at the start of charging,  when the voltage is still low.

so to say 10 joule in 3 seconds is 3.3 Watts would be wrong.
I wonder what power could be used. if i would put a load on the capacitro,  and the voltage would drop to 12 volts,  howmuch current would it be able to provide.

for me its a though question. also,  because its part of a resonant system, that needs to keep resonating.
 if any one could shed a light.

@ Grumage,  tnx for posting that schematic 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 06, 2017, 11:47:12 PM
Quote
I said that circuit should be used to study some interesting effects.

Which ones, for example? For me everything about electricity is interesting - ("magnets, how they do work? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMFPe-DwULM)")
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 07, 2017, 12:36:57 AM
but Im interested in the power that puts the charge in the caps. its not linear,  at first there is a sudden great rise of voltage,  and then when it reaches its maximum voltage,  the voltage rise slows down.
so the current seems large at the start of charging,  when the voltage is still low.

Yes Evostars, the bogeyman is going to speak to you again.  I am going to make good sense, so the question for you is are you going to have enough character to respond to me?  Am I allowed to eat at the same lunch counter as you?

The power going into the capacitor is the product of the voltage times the current.  Both are functions of time.

p(t) = i(t) * v(t).

And of course the energy is the summation of the power over the charging cycle.  We can also say that the energy is the integral of the current times the voltage with respect to time from the start to the end of the cycle.

Let's go back to p(t) = i(t) * v(t).

We are charging a capacitor, and we know that the voltage on a capacitor v = q/C.

And we also know that q(t) is the integral of i(t) with respect to time.  So we can do some substitutions:

p(t) = i(t) * [integral i(t)dt/C]

And there you go.  If you have a DSO you can record the current waveform and the capacitor voltage waveform and have the DSO do the multiplication for you.

Alternatively you can record the current waveform only and then put the file on a USB drive.   Then you can load the current waveform into a spreadsheet and do a multiply-accumulate function and get your answer like that.  This is the more "profound" way to do this because as long as you know the current waveform and the capacitance you have enough information to get your answer.  It's like Spice running through your veins.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 07, 2017, 01:51:25 AM
@evostars,

Discharging a capacitor is like decanting water from a five gallon jug; Slow starting, followed by a strong gush  at .67, tapering off to a slow flow: Charging exactly the reverse, max charge rate at .33 capacity:
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 07, 2017, 01:56:46 AM
No, the charge rate shown in your graph is the slope of the line. The maximum charge rate (steepest slope) is at zero capacity and slows down from there. The maximum discharge rate is at full capacity.

Perhaps you should review your calculus.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 07, 2017, 01:59:14 AM
Milehigh and synchro one,
thank you for your input on the capacitor!
No DCO for me,  but I think i might be able to measure it with a larger capacitance, needing more time to charge. so i can make a graph.

and that picture of the discharge really makes sense.

thanks for the spice

and yes Tinselkoala,  its all about the steepness of the line, but I need some voltage change to get current. So 0.67 seems perfect
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 07, 2017, 02:06:28 AM
The maximum current into the capacitor will occur when it is at zero charge. The maximum current out of your capacitor will occur when it is at full charge. This is what the graph is showing you.

Say you are using 10 volts from a voltage-regulated supply. You first short the capacitor to assure that it is fully discharged, then you apply your ten volts. The current will be at its maximum value as soon as you apply the voltage and will taper off according to the curve until the voltage on the capacitor is ten volts. Actually it will asymptote to ten volts. Discharge is the reverse: Apply a resistor across the charged capacitor and look at the current through the resistor. It will be at its maximum value as soon as you make contact and will taper off from there as the capacitor "drains" down to zero voltage.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 07, 2017, 09:13:04 AM
The maximum current into the capacitor will occur when it is at zero charge. The maximum current out of your capacitor will occur when it is at full charge. This is what the graph is showing you.

Say you are using 10 volts from a voltage-regulated supply. You first short the capacitor to assure that it is fully discharged, then you apply your ten volts. The current will be at its maximum value as soon as you apply the voltage and will taper off according to the curve until the voltage on the capacitor is ten volts. Actually it will asymptote to ten volts. Discharge is the reverse: Apply a resistor across the charged capacitor and look at the current through the resistor. It will be at its maximum value as soon as you make contact and will taper off from there as the capacitor "drains" down to zero voltage.

You're right, unless the capacitor is charging and discharging through a resistor. I used those figures because the chart I posted includes them. I used .67 and .33 wrongly instead of .63 and .37. My comparison to the jug includes the neck as a resistor, while an open bucket would be better for yours. Thanks for helping clear that up.

"As with the previous RC charging circuit, in a RC Discharging Circuit, the time constant ( τ ) is still equal to the value of 63%. Then for a RC discharging circuit that is initially fully charged, the voltage across the capacitor after one time constant, 1T, has dropped to 63% of its initial value which is 1 – 0.63 = 0.37 or 37% of its final value.

So now this is given as the time taken for the capacitor to discharge down to within 37% of its fully discharged value which will be zero volts (fully discharged), and in our curve this is given as 0.37Vc.

As the capacitor discharges, it loses its charge at a declining rate. At the start of discharge the initial conditions of the circuit, are t = 0, i = 0 and q = Q. The voltage across the capacitors plates is equal to the supply voltage and Vc = Vs. As the voltage across the plates is at its highest value maximum discharge current flows around the circuit".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 07, 2017, 10:48:04 AM
No, I am right even if the charge-discharge is through a resistor. Read your quoted passage again, and look at your graph again. In the charging case, the slope of the graph is steepest right where it takes off from zero and becomes progressively flatter until the charging voltage is asymptotically reached. In the discharging case the slope of the graph is steepest right when discharging commences and becomes progressively flatter until zero voltage is again asymptotically reached. The slopes of the lines indicates the time rate of charge/discharge, and the sign of the slopes indicates charging (positive slope, going up from left to right) or discharging (negative slope, going down from left to right). Zero slope (asymptotically horizontal line) means that "steady state" has been reached, either zero or fully charged to the charging voltage. The lines represent charge vs. time and the slopes of the lines represent d(charge)/dt. That is, the change in charge over the change in time. Where the slope of the line is steepest, you have the greatest change in charge during the smallest time, that is, the fastest charging rate. Adding more resistance stretches the graph horizontally (takes more time for a given amount of charge or discharge) but does not change the qualitative slopes; the fastest rates (corresponding to the greatest currents) will still be at the beginnings of the charge or discharge. This is elementary differential calculus.

"As the capacitor discharges, it loses its charge at a declining rate. At the start of discharge the initial conditions of the circuit, are t = 0, i = 0 and q = Q. The voltage across the capacitors plates is equal to the supply voltage and Vc = Vs. As the voltage across the plates is at its highest value maximum discharge current flows around the circuit".


 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 07, 2017, 02:55:18 PM
No, I am right even if the charge-discharge is through a resistor. Read your quoted passage again, and look at your graph again. In the charging case, the slope of the graph is steepest right where it takes off from zero and becomes progressively flatter until the charging voltage is asymptotically reached. In the discharging case the slope of the graph is steepest right when discharging commences and becomes progressively flatter until zero voltage is again asymptotically reached. The slopes of the lines indicates the time rate of charge/discharge, and the sign of the slopes indicates charging (positive slope, going up from left to right) or discharging (negative slope, going down from left to right). Zero slope (asymptotically horizontal line) means that "steady state" has been reached, either zero or fully charged to the charging voltage. The lines represent charge vs. time and the slopes of the lines represent d(charge)/dt. That is, the change in charge over the change in time. Where the slope of the line is steepest, you have the greatest change in charge during the smallest time, that is, the fastest charging rate. Adding more resistance stretches the graph horizontally (takes more time for a given amount of charge or discharge) but does not change the qualitative slopes; the fastest rates (corresponding to the greatest currents) will still be at the beginnings of the charge or discharge. This is elementary differential calculus.

"As the capacitor discharges, it loses its charge at a declining rate. At the start of discharge the initial conditions of the circuit, are t = 0, i = 0 and q = Q. The voltage across the capacitors plates is equal to the supply voltage and Vc = Vs. As the voltage across the plates is at its highest value maximum discharge current flows around the circuit".


 

The discharge curve shows 6 units of charge dissipating over 1 unit of time down to .37. Then it shows 4 units of charge dissapating over 3 units of time.

Here's what I said:

"Discharging a capacitor is like decanting water from a five gallon jug; Slow starting, followed by a strong gush, (then*) at .67, tapering off to a slow flow: Charging exactly the reverse, max charge rate at .33 capacity". That places the maximum discharge at 4 units of dissipation over 1/2 unit of time. Take another look at the graph "Mister Differential Calculus".

*Addition to original.

What I'm implying is that the first 1/3 of the capacitor charge spills most forcefully from the jug; This is with a resistor. Shorting the capacitor results in an explosion.

Naturally, the charge curve is the inverse; The first 2/3 of the charge the most rapid then the remaining 1/3 equally time consuming as the last 1/3 of the discharge lag.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 07, 2017, 04:18:29 PM
No, THIS is what you said:

@evostars,

Discharging a capacitor is like decanting water from a five gallon jug; Slow starting, followed by a strong gush  at .67, tapering off to a slow flow: Charging exactly the reverse, max charge rate at .33 capacity:

And you presented a graph that clearly shows 70 percent of charge leaving the capacitor in the FIRST RC time constant, a little under 20 percent of the charge leaving in the SECOND time constant, a fraction of 10 percent leaving in the THIRD time constant and the rest ( practically ) leaving in the FOURTH time constant and the tiny portion of the remainder leaving in the FIFTH time constant. After five time constants it is considered to have attained the Steady State (but in fact asymptotes to it.) The maximum DISCHARGE RATE occurs immediately after making the discharge connection, as your quoted passage says and as your graph shows, and the maximum CHARGE RATE occurs immediately after connecting the power source to the capacitor. The graph is right and continues to be right. Your verbal description was wrong and continues to be wrong. 

THE SLOPE OF THE LINE INDICATES THE TIME RATE OF CHANGE OF THE LINE. THE RATE OF CHANGE (rate of charge or discharge) IS MAXIMUM WHERE THE SLOPE IS STEEPEST. IF THE SLOPE IS POSITIVE, going up from left to right, THE CAPACITOR IS CHARGING, AND IF THE SLOPE IS NEGATIVE, going down from left to right, THE CAPACITOR IS DISCHARGING. When the slope is zero (horizontal line) the "steady state" is reached.

And I can see that you either never took Differential Calculus in school, or you flunked miserably. Give it up AB, you are simply wrong. YET AGAIN.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 07, 2017, 04:21:06 PM
The discharge curve shows 6 units of charge dissipating over 1 unit of time down to .37. Then it shows 4 units of charge dissapating over 3 units of time.

Here's what I said:

"Discharging a capacitor is like decanting water from a five gallon jug; Slow starting, followed by a strong gush, (then*) at .67, tapering off to a slow flow: Charging exactly the reverse, max charge rate at .33 capacity". That places the maximum discharge at 4 units of dissipation over 1/2 unit of time. Take another look at the graph "Mister Differential Calculus".

*Addition to original.

What I'm implying is that the first 1/3 of the capacitor charge spills most forcefully from the jug; This is with a resistor. Shorting the capacitor results in an explosion.

Naturally, the charge curve is the inverse; The first 2/3 of the charge the most rapid then the remaining 1/3 equally time consuming as the last 1/3 of the discharge lag.

Now you are trying to "spin" what you said and claimed at first. You have been confusing RATE with QUANTITY, apparently.

"What you are implying" you are now stating nearly correctly. The first 1/3 of the capacitor charge or discharge is happening at a FASTER RATE than the remaining charge or discharge. And the FASTEST rate, corresponding to the highest current, occurs during the first time constant immediately after making the connection.

Again, this is what you said at first:
Quote
Discharging a capacitor is like decanting water from a five gallon jug; Slow starting, followed by a strong gush  at .67, tapering off to a slow flow: Charging exactly the reverse, max charge rate at .33 capacity:

And the parts I have emphasized in your original statement are wrong.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 07, 2017, 04:56:53 PM
Yes Evostars, the bogeyman is going to speak to you again.  I am going to make good sense, so the question for you is are you going to have enough character to respond to me?  Am I allowed to eat at the same lunch counter as you?

The power going into the capacitor is the product of the voltage times the current.  Both are functions of time.

p(t) = i(t) * v(t).

And of course the energy is the summation of the power over the charging cycle.  We can also say that the energy is the integral of the current times the voltage with respect to time from the start to the end of the cycle.

Let's go back to p(t) = i(t) * v(t).

We are charging a capacitor, and we know that the voltage on a capacitor v = q/C.

And we also know that q(t) is the integral of i(t) with respect to time.  So we can do some substitutions:

p(t) = i(t) * [integral i(t)dt/C]

And there you go.  If you have a DSO you can record the current waveform and the capacitor voltage waveform and have the DSO do the multiplication for you.

Alternatively you can record the current waveform only and then put the file on a USB drive.   Then you can load the current waveform into a spreadsheet and do a multiply-accumulate function and get your answer like that.  This is the more "profound" way to do this because as long as you know the current waveform and the capacitance you have enough information to get your answer.  It's like Spice running through your veins.

MileHigh

Thanks by explanation . :)

cheers
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 07, 2017, 05:11:29 PM
Now you are trying to "spin" what you said and claimed at first. You have been confusing RATE with QUANTITY, apparently.

"What you are implying" you are now stating nearly correctly. The first 1/3 of the capacitor charge or discharge is happening at a FASTER RATE than the remaining charge or discharge. And the FASTEST rate, corresponding to the highest current, occurs during the first time constant immediately after making the connection.

Again, this is what you said at first:
And the parts I have emphasized in your original statement are wrong.

Here's what you had to say:

"No, I am right even if the charge-discharge is through a resistor"!

You're wrong!

This is right:

"The bigger the value of RC the slower the rate at which the capacitor discharges".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 07, 2017, 06:43:33 PM
Try and get a grip, AB.

You said,
Quote
You're right, unless the capacitor is charging and discharging through a resistor.

--referring back to my statement that the maximum charge rate happens when the cap is first connected to the power source, and the maximum discharge rate is when the cap is first connected to the discharge circuit. Whether it be a resistor or the negligible resistor formed by a straight bit of wire.

And I said, I'm right even when the capacitor is charging and discharging through a resistor. Yes, charging and discharging through a resistor will be slower overall-- that is what is meant by "stretching the graph horizontally". But the qualitative shape of the charge-discharge curve remains the same: It will still have the greatest slope, positive or negative, at the very beginning of the charging or discharging, meaning that the fastest RATE of charge/discharge is at those points, meaning that the greatest CURRENT occurs at those points. Anyone who can interpret a graph will tell you the same thing.

Do you actually understand what the word RATE means? It means quantity per time. Miles per hour, charge per RC period, coulombs per second, etc. These are all RATES, or to use the calculus term, time rate of change. The most quantity of charge per the least amount of time happens at the very beginning of the charge or discharge curve. The greatest currents occur at these points, NOT one third or two thirds down the graph. As your quoted passage and your graph CLEARLY STATE AND SHOW.

What exactly is your problem here? You made a statement that is clearly wrong, you posted information from other sources that clearly demonstrate that you are wrong, I have tried over and over to explain it to you but you persist in your error!  No wonder nobody bothers to respond to you at EF any more.


Quote
This is right:

"The bigger the value of RC the slower the rate at which the capacitor discharges".

Yes, that is right, but that is not what we have been talking about. Your claim was that the MAXIMUM RATE happens 1/3 or 2/3 down the graph, which is wrong, no matter what resistance is used.

Quote
Discharging a capacitor is like decanting water from a five gallon jug; Slow starting, followed by a strong gush  at .67, tapering off to a slow flow: Charging exactly the reverse, max charge rate at .33 capacity:

Those are your words, clearly stating your claim, and that claim is wrong.


 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 07, 2017, 06:51:39 PM
Tinselkola,

There you go again with your "Freddy the Freeloader" cigarbut stuck on a toothpick routine.

My point in your over quoted statement by me was merely to describe how the charge and discharge curve are equal and opposite. Nothing more!

I choose to compare the capacitor discharge to a jug of wáter to phase into a civil discussion of the RC formula, which is a necessary corolary. The diameter of the bottle neck analogous to the level of resistance.

I caught you using ambiguous language too. Everyone knows zero resistance accross the capacitor electrodes would result in a "Pulse", not a slope. This would appear as a near vertical line on the graph.

I can start to mistreat you as though you were a moron, even though I know you know better. I can't argue with anything you've had to say up till now. All I can assure you of, is that I have nothing to learn from you about this subject.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: starcruiser on April 07, 2017, 08:02:41 PM
Time for remedial Electronics guys?

try this for a refresher
http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/rc/rc_1.html (http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/rc/rc_1.html)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 07, 2017, 08:08:07 PM
 
Quote
Everyone knows zero resistance accross the capacitor electrodes would result in a "Pulse", not a slope. This would appear as a vertical line on the graph.

Wrong again! All real wires have resistance and ALL REAL CAPACITORS do too. Look up "ESR" wrt capacitors. For this claim of yours to be true you would have to have a capacitor with zero resistance and a connection with zero resistance, both impossible in reality, and the current on charge and discharge would be _infinite_, taking no time, which is what a vertical line means. Infinite slope! A change in charge over +no change in time+ !!!! Ridiculous on the face of it, as everyone _actually_ knows.
 
Good luck with that.

Anyone with a scope and the wit to use it can prove you wrong in fifteen minutes.

You want to keep moving goalposts and constructing your strawman arguments instead of admitting that you were wrong, go ahead. You'll wind up here just like you wound up at EF: nobody pays attention to you since they all know that you are full of yourself, you misrepresent and misunderstand and prevaricate, and you will never admit that you are wrong.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 07, 2017, 08:11:48 PM
Time for remedial Electronics guys?

try this for a refresher
http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/rc/rc_1.html (http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/rc/rc_1.html)

Perhaps you would like to try to explain to Synchro just where the maximum charge RATE and the maximum discharge RATE are shown on that graph.

Do you believe this very clear and unambiguous statement that he made is correct, or not?
Quote
   Discharging a capacitor is like decanting water from a five gallon jug; Slow starting, followed by a strong gush  at .67, tapering off to a slow flow: Charging exactly the reverse, max charge rate at .33 capacity:
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 07, 2017, 08:26:29 PM
Perhaps you would like to try to explain to Synchro just where the maximum charge RATE and the maximum discharge RATE are shown on that graph.

Do you believe this very clear and unambiguous statement that he made is correct, or not?

Why and the hell do you keep reposting that comment when I made it clear that it was an attempt by me to compare the charge and discharge curves as equal and opposite and nothing more?

You're a compulsive psychopath and need help.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 07, 2017, 08:37:56 PM
SO when you say, "the max charge rate is at .33 capacity" you didn't actually _mean_ that the maximum charge rate is at .33 capacity? Or when you say "slow starting followed by a gush at .67" you didn't actually _mean_ slow starting or that there is a gush at .67?

I see. Well, you will have to excuse me for misunderstanding then, since I can only go by what you SAY, not what you claim to have meant.

(insert facepalm character here)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 07, 2017, 08:43:06 PM
SO when you say, "the max charge rate is at .33 capacity" you didn't actually _mean_ that the maximum charge rate is at .33 capacity? Or when you say "slow starting followed by a gush at .67" you didn't actually _mean_ slow starting or that there is a gush at .67?

I see. Well, you will have to excuse me for misunderstanding then, since I can only go by what you SAY, not what you claim to have meant.

(insert facepalm character here)

You're stinking drunk and a slob!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 07, 2017, 08:50:31 PM
You're stinking drunk and a slob!

Preserved for posterity.

And, by the way... wrong again, twice over! 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 07, 2017, 08:52:49 PM
Preserved for posterity.

And, by the way... wrong again, twice over!

Barf, blubber puss sucking shyster schwienehunt!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 07, 2017, 09:16:21 PM
Barf, blubber puss sucking scheiskopf swienehunt!

Your German spelling needs a little work.

Why don't you try holding your breath until you turn blue, and jumping up and down and stomping your feet? Maybe that will make your false claims go away where nobody can see them.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 07, 2017, 09:21:50 PM
Your German spelling needs a little work.

Why don't you try holding your breath until you turn blue, and jumping up and down and stomping your feet? Maybe that will make your false claims go away where nobody can see them.

Booze hound!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 07, 2017, 09:29:09 PM
Booze hound!

Better watch out, the Drop Bear might come and getcha!

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 07, 2017, 09:45:14 PM
yeesh that bear gives me the creeps....

In the meantime perhaps a discussion of  these on topic experiments ?


REPOST
skycollection 1

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency

« Reply #415 on: April 06, 2017, 06:28:15 PM »


Quote
 I have many years sutying the pancake coils and this is my last video about my "multifilar pancake coil", this consist in six groups of pancake coils, one group consist in six pancake coils connected in series, all the groups are isolated from each other and all the pancake coils are in parallel in the same place (in a PBC PIPE) in my experiment i am using my circuit JL94 with two transistors like the drawing diagram that i am presenting in my video, when i move a magnet in the centre the circuit and the coils "enters in self oscillation" and all the groups "induces" the current to the led bulbs with great intensity, i have connected to the circuit only one group of pancake coils, the other groups are "pickup coils".
this is the experiment...: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ln7AEpxMeY
Saludos from mexico, Jorge Rebolledo

see also
REPOST
Grum's  replication of Nelsons schematic below [more replications to come]
https://youtu.be/m6lmd0HKxOw

the transistor schems below [posted by Tinsel] are for explaining the seeming "selfrunning" when the gate is removed in Grum's vid.

also to note the Neon bulb Vid will hopefully be discussed here too, as well as the power required to actually light this 80V NE2 neon bulb

Note ...there may be a few other ON TOPIC Vids added to this thread as time goes by


respectfully
Chet K

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 08, 2017, 12:39:28 AM
Neons like the typical NE-2 or NE-2a require very little current to light up quite well, once the "striking" voltage is reached. Typical currents are 400-800 microamps. And the voltage to sustain the glow drops a bit once the striking voltage is reached. So a "90" volt neon will strike at 90 volts and can stay lit as low as 60 volts, while needing only, say, 500 microamps of current. (But since the resistance of the plasma is very low, they can draw as much current as you will allow them to, with sometimes disastrous results, so current-limiting resistors are typically used in "ordinary" applications. )
So... figure for example 75 V x 500 uA = about 38 milliwatts of power or even less for a good healthy glow. This is not much more power than a typical high-brightness 5mm LED needs. Or, looking at the minimums, 60 V x 400 uA = 24 milliwatts. Whereas a blue LED at 3.3 Vx 10 mA = 33 mW.  So you can get a NE-2 to light up with ridiculously low amounts of average power especially if you pulse it with very short pulses.

Or I can, anyway.    ;)

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 01:33:57 AM
Nice demos guys but you should focus to the problem, which is overunity from bifilar pancake coils. This it the only thing which matters here. You should think on it every time, you're posting something here, or you'll lose drive and later even motivation to continue and you'll become a resigned pathoskeptic like TinselKoala. Like it or not, the inventive mind requires focus to problem and a discipline. If you look at the biography of all great inventors, you'll realize, they were often quite average people in many aspects - but they were always sharply focused and dedicated to particular problem, which they solved. The mindless senile twaddling and tinkering fancy demos from JouleThief circuits is very comfortable and maybe entertaining life style - but it will not move us forward: even if you would make thousands of such an "experiments" during whole your productive life, you'll not become an overunity expert anyway.

I can see a connection point in NelsonRocha circuit and Jorge Rebolledo's layered pancake coils: these devices both generate the variable magnetic fields of the opposite polarity against each other like so-called bucking anti-Lenz coils. Such a fields produce a scalar waves in my theory, i.e. the compression waves of vacuum, which temporarily change the speed of EM wave propagation and create anapole condition (http://overunity.com/17186/the-bifilar-pancake-coil-at-its-resonant-frequency/msg503010) for overunity. Instead of ferromagnet you can use the evanescent mode of EM wave propagation along wire as an active environment. The layers of pancake coils are better than single coil, but you should ensure, that the current will always flow in alternate direction across neighboring wires, which requires precious construction of coils.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 08, 2017, 01:38:51 AM
Neons like the typical NE-2 or NE-2a require very little current to light up quite well, once the "striking" voltage is reached. Typical currents are 400-800 microamps. And the voltage to sustain the glow drops a bit once the striking voltage is reached. So a "90" volt neon will strike at 90 volts and can stay lit as low as 60 volts, while needing only, say, 500 microamps of current. (But since the resistance of the plasma is very low, they can draw as much current as you will allow them to, with sometimes disastrous results, so current-limiting resistors are typically used in "ordinary" applications. )
So... figure for example 75 V x 500 uA = about 38 milliwatts of power or even less for a good healthy glow. This is not much more power than a typical high-brightness 5mm LED needs. Or, looking at the minimums, 60 V x 400 uA = 24 milliwatts. Whereas a blue LED at 3.3 Vx 10 mA = 33 mW.  So you can get a NE-2 to light up with ridiculously low amounts of average power especially if you pulse it with very short pulses.

Or I can, anyway.    ;)

Seems , are improving the interest in NE-2   :) i left a very nice book to people love "play" with them https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByZY5hj0h0hXaGZZUGRVYklkM0U and another https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByZY5hj0h0hXS3Npazk2blBzMWc

Thanks for share :)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 08, 2017, 02:36:32 AM
Zephir
MANY  persons here played with setups like you posted above for YEARS ,and no one EVER found anything anomalous
well honestly I only spoke with about twenty or so persons who share here and elsewhere open source .
probably thousands of hours collectively spent there and even with Pancake coils

have you done work there which could help guide  experimenters towards a true anomaly ?

maybe a build you can point to ??

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 02:49:22 AM
Quote
MANY  persons here played with setups like you posted above for YEARS, and no one EVER found anything anomalous

This is because the people who found it immediately leaved this forum (Akula) or placed embargo to every just a bit useful information about it (NelsonRocha). So you can get a perception, which you just presented here. But if you would construct the Joule Thief and Tesla coils with bifilar coils like TinselKoala is doing, then you never will find something interesting, because you'll utilize this component just in applications, in which it behaves like normal coil and in which its anomalous behavior cannot manifest itself.

If you want to find an overunity for inductive hob for example, you shouldn't use and wire it as a hob, because the hob is supposed to consume energy, not to produce it - got it? You should therefore know, where to look for it - and it requires to have strategy and some at least rudimentary theory of overunity prepared. The plain blind tinkering can get successful only by pure rare accident - and all people who succeed with it have no motivation to share information with others anymore. I can point to many builds (for example Infinity SAV Team (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq_qGHzYorAsR4sYi3m50sA/videos)  already collected many working findings) - but the viable route for collective overunity development leads through public sharing and improving theory, not experiments. We already have YouTube full of working overunity devices - but because we don't have their theory, we cannot replicate them.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 08, 2017, 03:10:21 AM
Infinity SAV team? You are really hilarious. You might as well cite Veproject for your "overunity" reference.

Meanwhile:

Tesla Bifilar Pancake Joule Thief, lighting up 24 LEDs in a 12-series, 2-parallel array, using a PNP transistor (BC556B) and one AAA battery.
(That is 12 LEDs in series, and this in parallel with another 12 LEDs in series.)

(This is my JT testbed, the toroid coil at bottom left is not connected for this demonstration.)

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 03:14:09 AM
The principal test bed for overunity device is the scalar bubble: the planar capacitor or pair of (electro)magnets in opposite direction of magnetic poles. The bifilar coil is using air core, so its effect are weaker, but its magnetic fields are colliding along larger area. The scalar bubble exhibits increased level of electrostatic noise, which can be detected as a voltage with pin diode (small surface area of PN junction prohibits averaging this noise).
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 03:17:25 AM
Quote
This is my JT testbed, the toroid coil at bottom left is not connected for this demonstration

It isn't, which becomes evident, once you attempt to answer the question: "And what this bed is testing?".

The testbed is always supposed to test some theory of function. The scientific method is always based on falsification of theory or at least model.
The blind random tinkering is not falsification of theory, i.e. it is not scientific approach.

What you demonstrated above as a testbed is a trivial Joule Thief oscillator circuit, just with pancake bifilar coil instead of normal toroid one used for positive feedback (every oscillator requires some positive feedback loop). The Joule Thief circuit (Armstrong oscillator) utilizes the transformer effect of inductor pair for this purpose, which bifilar coil provides too - but this effect is very classical one - so it doesn't lead into overunity. Once you utilize the pair of wires as an transformer, it will work like the transformer in similar way, like when you use an induction hob as an induction hob. No matter if you arrange the pair of wires into form of bifilar, solenoid or toroid or caduceus or Rodin coil or whatever else coil - the geometry is not important, the principle of function is what matters here. The (utilization of) very classical principle (of transformer) provides very classical results: nothing less, nothing more.

Your testbed is therefore testing the ability of bifilar coil to serve as a transformer for positive loop in Armstrong oscillator circuit. This is nice, but nothing spectacular, miraculous the less. Even if you would achieve to use an overunity transformer in JouleThief circuit, it wouldn't become a self-running just because of it, because the secondary winding is used only for driving base current of transistor. The transistor doesn't care, if you bring larger or smaller current into base, once the condition for positive feedback loop gets fulfilled. If you increase the current of base electrode, you'll just have higher amount of electricity wasted.

So if you want to demonstrate anomaly with your coil, you shouldn't utilize it as a boring classical transformer - you should give it chance to demonstrate more/something else.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 08, 2017, 03:19:57 AM
Zephir
(snip)
have you done work there which could help guide  experimenters towards a true anomaly ?
(snip)

He has been asked many times to produce evidence of a build or experiment of his own and he always dodges the question, just as he has done now.
So I have concluded that he has not done and cannot do what you are asking. Am I wrong? Could be... let's see the proof. Linking to Infinity SAV Team as "evidence"?  I don't think so. They violate Conservation of Miracles.    ;)

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 08, 2017, 03:34:07 AM
It isn't, which becomes evident, once you attempt to answer the question: "And what this bed is testing?".

The testbed is always supposed to test some theory of function. The scientific method is always based on falsification of theory.
The blind random tinkering is not falsification of theory, i.e. not scientific approach.

This bed is testing whether or not a TBF coil will work in the most basic rudimentary JT circuit with PNP transistor and many LEDs in series. The hypothesis under test is this: If I connect a low-inductance TBF pancake coil in a standard PNP JT circuit, it will work just about as well as an ordinary solenoidal or toroidal coil. The test fails to reject this hypothesis.

I pointed out that the toroid is not connected to avoid confusion, since I've used this testbed to test many different coils, transistors and loads, and one cannot see clearly in the photo that it is not connected. I imagine that there will be one or two people reading this that could be surprised and even interested that a TBF pancake coil will work in this circuit.

Don't try to teach an old boy how to suck eggs, credulous Zephir. If you think this is "blind random tinkering" ... let's see some work of your own that is any different.  I've lost count of how many times you have dodged this challenge.
 

Have you tried jumping off a building and flapping your arms to see if you can fly yet? I'll bet you haven't.

And let's see some real proof that a "scalar bubble" exists, and that the effect the circuit you posted _might_ demonstrate is caused by some such entity and not by something else already known to conventional physics.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 08, 2017, 03:42:53 AM
Infinity SAV Team? You are really hilarious. You might as well cite Veproject for your "overunity" reference.

They did not pass my quality control system either.  lol

Do you want to be a distributor?

Quote
Distributor agrees to the day of submitting the Fossil Fuel Free Generator to pay a deposit amount of 100,000 US dollars.

In the musings of my mind there is a kind of Charlie's Angels team of svelte yet shapely women that fight for truth and justice and the American Way.  There are five of these powerful women and they call themselves Luck Force Five.  Think of Russ Meyer making movies of their exploits.

You can just imagine this team of beautiful intelligent women "busting" Infinity SAV Team - Luck Force Five vs. Infinity SAV Team.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 08, 2017, 05:15:40 AM
If we measure a pancake coil for inductance, would that necessarily be the value calculated with measured capacitance of the bifi windings, give the actual value of the resonant freq? Or would it be a wider band than a single layer bifi rod coil?

Like if we measured the inductance of just a couple turns on the inner dia vs measuring the inductance of a couple outer turns, would that measurement be the same?

Then if we calculated those measurements with measured capacitance, would we find the same resonant freq value? 

Was just thinking if maybe the highest resonant peak may have a kinda wider bandwidth than say a single layer cylinder bifi coil which should have a fairly sharper peak.

Had bought some RS flat speaker cable some time back when a RS store closed, and cheap, with some ideas to fiddle with in this area. Can split the wire pair down the middle to make the bifi pair. Was thinking of the flat wire would have more capacitance vs round wire.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 08, 2017, 08:59:36 AM
If we measure a pancake coil for inductance, would that necessarily be the value calculated with measured capacitance of the bifi windings, give the actual value of the resonant freq? Or would it be a wider band than a single layer bifi rod coil?

Like if we measured the inductance of just a couple turns on the inner dia vs measuring the inductance of a couple outer turns, would that measurement be the same?

Then if we calculated those measurements with measured capacitance, would we find the same resonant freq value? 

Was just thinking if maybe the highest resonant peak may have a kinda wider bandwidth than say a single layer cylinder bifi coil which should have a fairly sharper peak.

Had bought some RS flat speaker cable some time back when a RS store closed, and cheap, with some ideas to fiddle with in this area. Can split the wire pair down the middle to make the bifi pair. Was thinking of the flat wire would have more capacitance vs round wire.

Mags
flat speaker wire. Sounds excellent! it will give bigger capacity, but its also important how close the bifilar windings  wires are. If the coating isnt to thick...

also,  when using multiple bifilar pancake coils on top of eachother,  the capacitance changes. the dielectric fields start interacting with eachother.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 08, 2017, 10:11:16 AM
Sorry for off topic [@ Magluvin nice moderator suit ]

but Zephir posted this and I would like to know if we have this in a topic here?
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq_qGHzYorAsR4sYi3m50sA/videos
and has anybody here called these guys or visited them yet and shared ??

also on topic question to Zephir on this
quote
So if you want to demonstrate anomaly with your coil, you shouldn't utilize it as a boring classical transformer - you should give it chance to demonstrate more/something else.
end quote

@ Zephir
How to do this [ More/]something else
??
thx

Chet

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 08, 2017, 11:01:57 AM
yeesh that bear gives me the creeps....

In the meantime perhaps a discussion of  these on topic experiments ?


Grum's  replication of Nelsons schematic below [more replications to come]
https://youtu.be/m6lmd0HKxOw

the transistor schems below [posted by Tinsel] are for explaining the seeming "selfrunning" when the gate is removed in Grum's vid.

also to note the Neon bulb Vid will hopefully be discussed here too, as well as the power required to actually light this 80V NE2 neon bulb

Note ...there may be a few other ON TOPIC Vids added to this thread as time goes by


respectfully
Chet K

For people interested some replications of the mini exciter. Mini exciter was not designed to light Neon bulbs .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ8TX0bPCL8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY3Mr2pAErw

Cheers

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 11:31:07 AM
Quote
but Zephir posted this and I would like to know if we have this in a topic here? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq_qGHzYorAsR4sYi3m50sA/videos and has anybody here called these guys or visited them yet and shared?

The pathoskeptic character of this forum is just in the point, that the only company which provides overunity devices at commercial basis gets systematically ridiculed in this forum, whereas its active members are flooding forum with their useless demonstrations of classical physics. If you would read Nelson Rocha's posts, you could also read that he "sold his technology to South Korean company" - so we can just connect the dots and we can ask, which company it actually was, if the Infinity SAV Team resides at Soul?

Quote
Distributor agrees to the day of submitting the Fossil Fuel Free Generator to pay a deposit amount of 100,000 US dollars.

Would Infinity SAV would pay for technology, if it wouldn't actually work? And if it did pay for it and this technology works - why it shouldn't want to get its money back? Once some distributor buys working overunity device, then he also gets its know-how automatically, because every such a device can be reversely engineered. Infinity SAV Team must somehow protect itself against dishonest dealers, who will never sell anything and who just want to steal its know-how.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 11:35:23 AM
Quote
For people interested some replications of the mini exciter. Mini exciter was not designed to light Neon bulbs.

Why we should be interested for it if you admitted already, that it doesn't generate overunity?  What this device is supposed to illustrate after then? Many devices can draw lower current at higher powering voltages, whereas their load power still increases - but this is still not demonstration of any overunity. The impedance of motor increases with increased revolutions, but it still draws more power from load. The light bulb behaves in the same way due to dependence of its resistance on temperature of filament, so it can serve as a varistor.

Quote
If I connect a low-inductance TBF pancake coil in a standard PNP JT circuit, it will work just about as well as an ordinary solenoidal or toroidal coil. The test fails to reject this hypothesis.


The question is, why it should behave differently?  You even didn't measure the input and output power of your circuit, so your experiment is completely useless. Even if such a coil would provide the overunity, would it behave differently in Joule Thief circuit? You should arrange the circuit in a way, which would allow the occasional overunity to manifest itself at output rather than wasted in base current.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 08, 2017, 11:53:05 AM
Why we should be interested for it if you admitted already, that it doesn't generate overunity?  What this device is supposed to illustrate after then? Many devices can draw lower current at higher powering voltages, whereas their load power still increases - but this is still not demonstration of any overunity. The impedance of motor increases with increased revolutions, but it still draws more power from load. The light bulb behaves in the same way due to dependence of its resistance on temperature of filament, so it can serve as a varistor.

Hi Zephir ,
you should not particularize your inner feelings because maybe exist more people interested . If you don't want, is up to you my friend , but let me tell you that a house is not started from the roof . I told you that circuit should be used like a tool to be study , nothing more .

Since the begin you are make a desperate effort to "suck" something more from me (info), but i will tell you exactly what i tell before to you in PM :
I'm not in this forum to sell nothing , i don't want your money offers ether from others . What i give is free ! without recall nothing in exchange .
So you should take or leave , nothing of your arguments will convince me .

Have a nice day

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Grumage on April 08, 2017, 12:29:11 PM
Good morning Nelson.

May I ask a simple question regarding your " Mini Radiant Exciter " circuit, schematic posted on the previous page?

I used a commercial " potted " 240/24 0 24 transformer just using one of the 24 volt windings.

It is connected in series from source.

Is it the 240 volt or the 24 volt winding that's in series from the source? As it has been some time since I built it I have forgotten which way I used the transformer.   :)

I'm thinking of having another look at this....... ;)

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 12:30:06 PM
Quote
I'm not in this forum to sell nothing , i don't want your money offers ether from others

I didn't promise you any money. But once you submit the link to some silent presentations without further explanation, then it's legitimate for us to ask for a better explanation - don't you think? It's indeed your full right to dismiss it - but you shouldn't consider it as a business proposal, because it isn't, desperate the less.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 01:04:46 PM

Wrong again! All real wires have resistance and ALL REAL CAPACITORS do too. Look up "ESR" wrt capacitors. inFor this claim of yours to be true you would have to have a capacitor with zero resistance and a connection with zero resistance, both impossible  reality, and the current on charge and discharge would be _infinite_, taking no time, which is what a vertical line means. Infinite slope! A change in charge over +no change in time+ !!!! Ridiculous on the face of it, as everyone _actually_ knows.
 
Good luck with that.

Anyone with a scope and the wit to use it can prove you wrong in fifteen minutes.

You want to keep moving goalposts and constructing your strawman arguments instead of admitting that you were wrong, go ahead. You'll wind up here just like you wound up at EF: nobody pays attention to you since they all know that you are full of yourself, you misrepresent and misunderstand and prevaricate, and you will never admit that you are wrong.

@Tinselkoala,

Tesla's first patent described his "Spark Gap Generator". A capacitor has one plate attached to a ground and the other plate to an antenna. There are spark gap electrodes between the capacitor plates that are in close adjacency to the plates. A radiant charge builds between the capacitor plates. This charge reduces resistance between the spark gap electrodes and when the resistance drops below the charge level a spark occurs.   

Take a look at the outrageous and pompous statement you made above in your fattened conceit: "For this claim of yours to be true you would have to have a capacitor with zero resistance and a connection with zero resistance, both impossible"

Where's the resistance when the spark occurs? 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 08, 2017, 01:19:50 PM
Would Infinity SAV would pay for technology, if it wouldn't actually work? And if it did pay for it and this technology works - why it shouldn't want to get its money back? Once some distributor buys working overunity device, then he also gets its know-how automatically, because every such a device can be reversely engineered. Infinity SAV Team must somehow protect itself against dishonest dealers, who will never sell anything and who just want to steal its know-how.

There is a sucker born every minute.  In my opinion "World Infinity SAV" comes from the "Mike Brady" school of "Perendev motor" infamy.  You can look him up for yourself.  Therefore in my opinion they are criminals.

"Infinity SAV Team" are looking for people just like you that want to believe and they have money to "invest."  The money will never be recuperated, they want to steal it and live off of it without having to work.

As far as the "free energy machine" goes, I will just quote myself when discussing Wayne Travis and his groaning bellows machine:

<<< If what he had was real, it would completely shake the world up and be the biggest news story of the 21st century.  It would completely change civilization.  Wayne would be on the cover of Time and Newsweek.  What you have instead is Wayne pitching, "Soon we will be in the business of selling energy systems to our customers" as if he was talking about something mundane like selling prefabricated garages to industrial customers.  It's just totally ridiculous.  If you step outside of the "bubble" you can see the tragicomic aspect to this whole farce.  >>>

The same thing applies here.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 01:24:43 PM
Quote
In my opinion "World Infinity SAV" comes from the "Mike Brady" school of "Perendev motor" infamy.

Your opinion is solely unqualified, the principle of Infinity SAV Team's generator is completely different from Perendev motor - it even works in opposite way: i.e. as a dynamo. The fact, that layman like you sees some aluminum cylinder stuffed with neodymium magnets doesn't imply, it's a Perendev motor of sort.

Quote
There is a sucker born every minute.

Such us? Who actually sells the overunity device at the web in this moment? Instead of it, the patoskeptic trolls are flooding this forum every minute.

Quote
If what he had was real, it would completely shake the world up and be the biggest news story of the 21st century.

LOL, the Copernicus theory was real and yet the mainstream science didn't even bother to look at it for another 160 years. The first attempt for replication of overunity in electrical circuit is currently delayed for 145 years (Cook 1871 (https://www.google.com/patents/US119825)), cold fusion finding 90 years (Panneth/Petters 1926 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cber.19260590860/abstract)), Woodward drive (http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00665932) 26 years, EMDrive (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=36313.0;attach=809343) 18 years and room superconductivity (http://www.seminarsonly.com/electrical & electronics/Ultraconductors.php) finding by 45 years. And I'm not even talking about some industrial utilization - only about first serious attempt for replication published in peer-reviewed literature. The findings get accepted only when they add jobs and profit to existing ruling class, once they threaten it (which is typical just for actually breakthrough findings - i.e. not incremental progress), then they get ignored with no mercy. From this perspective, the ignorance of breakthrough findings is rather strict rule, than some socioeconomical anomaly.

The "argument of yours" is most typical pluralistic ignorance fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralistic_ignorance) of pathoskeptics: if these findings are real breakthroughs, how is it possible, that nobody is bothered with attempts for their replications?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 08, 2017, 01:37:54 PM
I didn't promise you any money. But once you submit the link to some silent presentations without further explanation, then it's legitimate for us to ask for a better explanation - don't you think? It's indeed your full right to dismiss it - but you shouldn't consider it as a business proposal, because it isn't, desperate the less.

Hi Zephir,
I'm not particularize  you , but i assure to you that some already make real € propose.
What is legitimate in my perspective is , if you are really interested in that circuit  you should replicate them  , is not the small amount of money and time that you will spend in that circuit that will you make more poor , otherwise just ignore like the people you critic almost time, did in past .
I up to you , you are free :)

cheers

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 08, 2017, 01:40:49 PM
Good morning Nelson.

May I ask a simple question regarding your " Mini Radiant Exciter " circuit, schematic posted on the previous page?

I used a commercial " potted " 240/24 0 24 transformer just using one of the 24 volt windings.

It is connected in series from source.

Is it the 240 volt or the 24 volt winding that's in series from the source? As it has been some time since I built it I have forgotten which way I used the transformer.   :)

I'm thinking of having another look at this....... ;)

Kind regards, Graham.

Hi Graham,
Is the primary side of transformer that is connected ; the transformer i used is 240v x 9v normally  used in a commercial electronic inboard .

wish you the best

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 01:54:08 PM
Quote
if you are really interested in that circuit  you should replicate them

This is the same story: why I should get really interested about your circuit? What does it so exceptionally? Once you're whining about trolls (http://overunity.com/profile/nelsonrochaa.78156/area/showposts/start/30/) flooding this forum, you shouldn't also behave like the troll. Once you start to whine, you got ignored this community (on behalf of Akula or whoever else), you should also ask yourself, what did you really submitted to it. You're doing everything for being ignored with no mercy: you want the attention for nothing, just for informal cat & mice game.

You should realize, why we all are visiting this forum: this forum is dedicated for sharing of information, not for its keeping. This forum is dedicated for exploration of overunity, not for its classification. This forum is dedicated for overunity devices, not for another ones. And so on - everyone who things and behaves differently undermines the very purpose of this forum and the very reason of his own existence here. Is it really so difficult to understand it?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 08, 2017, 02:04:25 PM
LOL, the Copernicus theory was real and yet the mainstream science didn't even bother to look at it for another 160 years. The first attempt for replication of overunity in electrical circuit is currently delayed for 145 years (Cook 1871 (https://www.google.com/patents/US119825)), cold fusion finding 90 years (Panneth/Petters 1926 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cber.19260590860/abstract)), Woodward drive (http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00665932) 26 years, EMDrive (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=36313.0;attach=809343) 18 years and room superconductivity (http://www.seminarsonly.com/electrical & electronics/Ultraconductors.php) finding by 45 years. And I'm not even talking about some industrial utilization - only about first serious attempt for replication published in peer-reviewed literature. The findings get accepted only when they add jobs and profit to existing ruling class, once they threaten it (which is typical just for actually breakthrough findings - i.e. not incremental progress), then they get ignored with no mercy. From this perspective, the ignorance of breakthrough findings is rather strict rule, than some socioeconomical anomaly.

The "argument of yours" is most typical pluralistic ignorance fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralistic_ignorance) of pathoskeptics: if these findings are real breakthroughs, how is it possible, that nobody is bothered with attempts for their replications?

Oh sure, like when the whole world was shaken up in 1989 when they announced cold fusion and people thought it was legitimate.  It was the biggest news story across the world the day it was announced.

So, no, you can't run a mail order company selling free energy devices and be just like any other business.  If it really was real, it would shake up the entire world.

It's just a con and they are looking for people like you to feed off of and use.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 02:17:42 PM
@Tinselkola,

Where are you Bub? In bed with a hangover?

"The current on charge and discharge would be _infinite_, taking no time, which is what a vertical line means. Infinite slope! A change in charge over +no change in time+" Impossible you say?

You boldly accused me of misunderstanding, misrepresenting and prevaricating: How dare you be so insolent to me you cheap carnival huckster!

Tesla wrote at great length about the infinity of the spark, and spoke of it at conferences with contemporaries like Max Plank and Albert Einstien.

This is the crux of the infinite power of the impulse magnetisem, and not understood by either you or Milehigh!

I supply proof of it in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeJ5wHBpaf4
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 02:37:56 PM
Quote
like when the whole world was shaken up in 1989 when they announced cold fusion and people thought it was legitimate

And it isn't? Currently (actually in 2006 already) the Fleischman/Pons fusion at palladium is already replicated with 90+% reproducibility (https://sapienza.pure.elsevier.com/en/publications/some-recent-results-at-enea). ENEA Fusion labs (http://www.fusione.enea.it/LABORATORIES/Tec/membrane.html.en) is professionally equipped and governmentally funded research base, which is subsidized even by Bill Gates (http://www.larena.it/home/economia/gates-finanza-l-enea-vicini-ad-un-intesa-1.3129089#scroll=911). The achieving of reproducibility in cold fusion research just requires the thoroughness and streamlined research effort - after all, like any other advanced human activity. For example the yield of microprocessors in semiconductor industry is often lower than 60% - and yet nobody doubts their existence. Despite these successes no one of mainstream research basis exhibits an interest about this technology, because it would threat their own nuclear and renewable business: from tokamaks over solar cells to batteries.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 08, 2017, 02:47:56 PM
And it isn't? Currently (in 2009 actually) the Fleischman/Pons fusion at palladium is already replicated with 75+% reproducibility (http://old.enea.it/produzione_scientifica/pdf_brief/Violante_ExcessPower.pdf). ENEA Fusion labs (http://www.fusione.enea.it/LABORATORIES/Tec/membrane.html.en) is professionally equipped and governmentally funded research base, which is subsidized even by Bill Gates (http://www.larena.it/home/economia/gates-finanza-l-enea-vicini-ad-un-intesa-1.3129089#scroll=911).

Yes, about two or three years ago "cold fusion got hot again" and it was covered on the show 60 Minutes.  Now it's back to being nowhere and the most infamous person associated with cold fusion, Rossi, is considered by most to be a fraud.  Defkalion is dead, they just vanished in a vortex of BS.

If cold fusion was real it would be applied and in use today.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 02:55:17 PM
Who can explain why the Tesla series connected bifilar carries twice the "Magnetization Impulse Charge" as the single wire coil of equal inductance?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 02:57:13 PM
Quote
Now it's back to being nowhere


But how it could refuse the 90+% reproducibility of ENEA results (https://sapienza.pure.elsevier.com/en/publications/some-recent-results-at-enea)? Of course, palladium is expensive and Rossi/Defkalion worked with cheaper nickel, which may be more difficult to handle. But it is reliable ground for further research. You cannot get even the tokamak or thorium based energy without investments into research, despite its perfectly feasible. Are you telling me, that the tokamak or thorium energy is not possible, because it's also promised and delayed for decades only? Is the laser fusion impossible just because of recent failure of NIF? If not, why the acceptance logic of cold fusion should be different? The physicists even didn't start to attempt for it seriously (no results published in peer-reviewed journals with compare to NIF / tokamak / thorium research). Why we should expect positive results with zero or even negative attitude, if even the heavily funded research got no usable results yet?

Quote
Who can explain why the Tesla series connected bifilar carries twice the "Magnetization Impulse Charge" then the single wire coil of equal inductance?

When every two neighboring wires within pancake bifilar coil cancel their magnetism each other, then you indeed must exert more energy for achieving the same magnetization at certain distance from them. If this answer doesn't satisfy you, then how the "Magnetization Impulse Charge" is actually defined (circuit diagram, specification of experiments, oscillograms)? We can attempt for explanation only the problems, which are well defined. The vaguely defined problems can get vague answers only.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 03:02:33 PM

But how it could refuse the 90+% reproducibility of ENEA results (https://sapienza.pure.elsevier.com/en/publications/some-recent-results-at-enea)? Of course, palladium is expensive and Rossi/Defkalion worked with cheaper nickel, which may be more difficult to handle. But it is reliable ground for further research. You cannot get even the tokamak or thorium based energy without investments into research, despite its perfectly feasible. Are you telling me, that the tokamak or thorium energy is not possible, because it's also promised for decades only? If not, why the acceptance logic of cold fusion should be different? The physicists even didn't attempt for it seriously.

What does this have to do with the thread topic?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 03:14:17 PM
@Tinselkoala and Milehigh,

O.K. The charge curves overlap upside down. That's cleared up now. Let's hear more about your non-infinity of the spark theory!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 08, 2017, 03:30:19 PM
Allen
I could be wrong....??
But it would seem you just yelled at a guy for an off topic comment

and then you inserted a question that wiil take it even further off topic for a hundred more pages of flame wars...


How the heck could we ever moderate here and keep things on topic?

Poor Mags...
yeesh

persons here who Build these coils are trying to do experiments
ON TOPIC experiments

whoever doesn't like it and wants to discuss other topics should start a separate thread.

its not even an opinion

just the way its supposed to be.

you wanna fight with Tinsel and Miles ?
I'll Pull the Steel cage outta storage and we'll setup a thread and sell tickets

PLEASE RESPECT THIS MANS THREAD

we do have moderation available here....

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 03:43:41 PM
Allen
I could be wrong....??
But it would seem you just yelled at a guy for an off topic comment

and then you inserted a question that wiil take it even further off topic for a hundred more pages of flame wars...


How the heck could we ever moderate here and keep things on topic?

Poor Mags...
yeesh

persons here who Build these coils are trying to do experiments
ON TOPIC experiments

whoever doesn't like it and wants to discuss other topics should start a separate thread.

its not even an opinion

just the way its supposed to be.

you wanna fight with Tinsel and Miles ?
I'll Pull the Steel cage outta storage and we'll setup a thread and sell tickets

PLEASE RESPECT THIS MANS THREAD

we do have moderation available here....

I beg your pardon Chet. You did nothing to scold Tinselkoala the whole time he ravaged me over fuzzy language. There's a big difference between being dead wrong and incorrectly stated. Both Milehigh and Tinselkoala got 86'd by Arron over at Energetic forum where both of us are in good standing for their "Steam Punk" illogic. The issue is the infinite speed of the gravity wave lectured about by Eric Dollard and the patent by Nicola on his bifilar coil as a coil for electro-magnets.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 08, 2017, 04:00:24 PM
would seem this thread will have to go wherever you  wish to go ??

in the mean time some are discussing options to get the experiments done elsewhere

another thread dedicated to builders [on topic] and experiments.

I cannot believe it has to be this way Allen ??

I will not type a single word in response to you
this has gone too far

PLEASE START A NEW TOPIC AND SEND OUT INVITATIONS THIS NEEDS TO END ONCE AND FOR ALL

i'LL PULL OUT THE STEEL CAGE

********
EDIT

Removed info for another thread start up


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 04:03:42 PM
Tinselkoala ridiculed me because no one any longer comments in response to my claims because there're in the woods along with him and Milehigh who are both extremely narrow minded, and dominate this web site with arrogant and abusive insults mostly directed at newbie's with English for a second language.

Here's a clue: The Tesla bifilar cancels it's self inductance. What would this do to double the strength of the magnet pulse over a single wire coil that's retarded by "Flyback"?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 04:24:12 PM
Tesla's bifilar doe's not send a "Negative Current" into the ferrite core when the current's interrupted.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 04:30:59 PM
Quote
The Tesla bifilar cancels it's self inductance.

Does it really (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtH9bp7QVo)? Can you show us your own data?

Quote
Tesla's bifilar doe's not send a "Negative Current" into the ferrite core when the current's interrupted.

Does it really? For example TinselCoala presented here his "testbed" JouleThief circuit, in which the bifilar coil worked in the same way, like this normal one.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 08, 2017, 04:52:21 PM
Tinselkoala ridiculed me because no one any longer comments in response to my claims because there're in the woods along with him and Milehigh who are both extremely narrow minded, and dominate this web site with arrogant and abusive insults mostly directed at newbie's with English for a second language.

No, don't spiral out of control, no pun intended.

I have given Evostars some decent relevant information about a self-resonating coil.  It's up to him to understand it or indulge in whatever stuff he is reading from the free energy/alternative pulp press and websphere.

That "alternative view" of electronics has its severe limitations.  Look at poor Chris Mr. IQ, he worked on a bench for 10 full years and clearly demonstrated that he barely had a clue with respect to what he was doing.  It's when life sometimes is stranger than fiction.  Just like people talk about resonance all the time and they don't even know what it is.  I have mostly given up and just watch the show.  You can believe whatever it is you want to believe but since I decided to contribute this thread I countered some of your disinformation.

Yes this thread has gotten off track a bit, but look at the equivalent thread on EF.  It's a complete ghost town and nobody has anything to say.

The most relevant fact about a self-resonating coil or a bifilar pancake self-resonating coil is that they are essentially useless.  There is a minuscule amount of energy being exchanged in the self-resonance and it has no practical applications whatsoever.  Anybody is welcome to correct me if I am wrong and at the same time I would not be surprised if there are whole chapters in the pulp press devoted to self-resonating coils.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 05:11:57 PM
Quote
The most relevant fact about a self-resonating coil or a bifilar pancake self-resonating coil is that they are essentially useless.

Only for pathoskeptical ignorant trolls who believe the cold fusion doesn't work and who cannot distinguish Infinity SAV Team generator from Perendev motor. The true is, most of replicators didn't even start with serious research of bifilar coil. Their naivety complements the ignorance of pathoskeptics rather reliably. The forums like these ones need really solid moderation for to get somewhere. And also hierarchical, i.e. not linear structure (which becomes incomprehensible rather fast).
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 05:20:40 PM
Assuming anyone's watched my 48 Hex nut locking video; How far can we stretch the wire and what's the upward limit on the number of nuts per spark of locking power?

Is the lone wire an inductor? How can it store power? No power stored equals zero flyback and zero negative current to the Hex nuts when the current's interrupted.

It's important to understand that a spark jumps between the battery electrode and the wire end before it's connected, and that it's this input spark that carries the magnetizing power.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 08, 2017, 05:29:24 PM
Only for pathoskeptical ignorant trolls who believe the cold fusion doesn't work and who cannot distinguish Infinity SAV Team generator from Perendev motor. The true is, most of replicators didn't even start with serious research of bifilar coil. Their naivety complements the ignorance of pathoskeptics rather reliably. The forums like these ones need really solid moderation for to get somewhere. And also hierarchical, i.e. not linear structure (which becomes incomprehensible rather fast).

Yes, you have clearly established yourself as a near-crazed zealot for over unity.  But I am not a troll and your straw man arguments about me are tedious.  I said there are no commercial cold fusion-based systems which is a fact.  I did not say anything else about that subject.  I did not say there was any equivalency between the fake Perendev motor and the fake company called Infinity SAV Team.  I have qualified Infinity SAV Team as fake.  That's my opinion, like it or not.

Yes, you gobble up free energy clips on YouTube like they are jellybeans.  You would find a soulmate in FatBird.

I am no troll, stop abusing that term.  Evostars was interested in the concept of a self-resonating coil and I shared some information with him.

If I can offer you some advice it would be to lower the volume and demonstrate an over unity system if you can.  That's what you are here for, right?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 08, 2017, 05:30:23 PM
Allen
I could be wrong....??
But it would seem you just yelled at a guy for an off topic comment

and then you inserted a question that wiil take it even further off topic for a hundred more pages of flame wars...


How the heck could we ever moderate here and keep things on topic?

Poor Mags...
yeesh

persons here who Build these coils are trying to do experiments
ON TOPIC experiments

whoever doesn't like it and wants to discuss other topics should start a separate thread.

its not even an opinion

just the way its supposed to be.

you wanna fight with Tinsel and Miles ?
I'll Pull the Steel cage outta storage and we'll setup a thread and sell tickets

PLEASE RESPECT THIS MANS THREAD

we do have moderation available here....


+1

and in addition to all,
Think for yourself. Question authority.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 05:41:15 PM
Now, enough of twaddling and try to think about this:

The magnets in general attract ferromagnetic material - like the piece of ferrite - without respect orientation of their poles, right? What will happen, if we place another magnet behind this ferrite?

If the 2nd magnet will be equally oriented to polarity of the 1st magnet, then its placement behind the ferrite will just increase the attractive force between them - OK?

But what will happen, if the 2nd magnet will get oriented against 1st magnet in mirror-like way? After then we can achieve the situation/geometry, during which the attractive force of 1st magnet to ferrite will get  exactly balanced with the repulsive force of the 2nd magnet. In another words, the ferrites would move freely along magnets without any cogging, because the magnetic forces of both magnets will compensate mutually. And the magnets would also move along each other without any macroscopic forces.

The final question is, what we could expect, if we would surround the ferrite with coil and if we attempt to collect current induced during mutual motion of magnets and/or ferrite between them.

Intuitively we could expect, that no electromotoric force will be induced within such a coil, because the effects of magnetic field of both counteracting magnets will compensate mutually. The polarity of magnetic field doesn't actually change within ferrite - the magnetic fields of both counteracting magnets will only change its saturation.

But how the situation will change, once we use bifilar coil at the place of collecting coil wound around ferrite? The bifilar coil is sensitive just to changes of magnetization - not the direction of magnetic field - because its wires collect magnetic field in alternating direction. Therefore it can induce the voltage and this voltage will not be affected with back-electromotive force, because the ferrites are already moving freely between magnets. In another words, any electricity induced into bifilar coil in this arrangement will be generated for free.

Of course the moving magnets can be replaced with electromagnets (a pair of bucking coils) with variable magnetic field and to achieve a solid state generator ("MEG") in this way. Its problem is, the variable magnetization of electromagnet cores will be the source of additional hysteresis loses, which may decrease the energy yield. If we use air cored coils, we would need to increase the working frequency of device significantly for to maintain energy density in acceptable range,  so that we'll get the Kapagen circuit.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 08, 2017, 05:42:13 PM
evostar
here thinking for yourself
is what its all about.

how do we get there ?

we present an idea which can be discussed ? we say we have something unusual?
we experiment
you mentioned something about stacking coils and some type of effect

maybe we can start there?
would you be interested ?[me too

its like hearding cats over here, I must add very interesting for an A D D addict [might have some experience with that... :o
but not very productive.
you kind of got absorbed in the noise

where would you like to see this thread go
an experiment ?
or

respectfully
Chet K
PS
I must add there are "thousands of years of collective knowledge within this group [personal experience's and testing
you may find your idea has already been tested here or elsewhere

people may share that knowledge to save time [actual experiments they performed ]?

However... this of course is just for reference ,any experimental attempt at a replication of a thought [not actual PDF replication]
is never grounds  to dismiss a claim ?

unless as an example... the Koala's claim... to be able to fly by flapping of arms [he keeps trying to get certain theorists to Vet this  claim from high locations
 :o


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 06:26:10 PM
Quote
I have qualified Infinity SAV Team as fake.  That's my opinion, like it or not

We aren't here to discuss opinions, only facts or rational ideas. Once you have no evidence or at least indicia for your suspicion, then you're religious troll who believes in things without rational substance. A pathoskeptic troll being more specific. That's my opinion about you - like it or not.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 08, 2017, 06:41:50 PM
We aren't here to discuss opinions, only facts or rational ideas. Once you have no evidence or at least indicia for your suspicion, then you're religious troll who believes in things without rational substance. A pathoskeptic troll being more specific. That's my opinion about you - like it or not.

You get a ROFL for that particular bit of hypocrisy.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 08, 2017, 06:43:01 PM
Zephir
this is the last time I will post off topic here [you seed off topic at will]

where is this SAV being discussed here ?
have you or anyone ever spoken with them or visited them?
if not why not ?

that is after all what we do here ,actually one of the things I personally put great effort into ?
if you can't find the topic here ..
START ONE
I will do the rest...[or hopefully others will help too ,but not to be counted on.. or necessary .

respectfully
Chet K
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 08, 2017, 06:50:58 PM
Quote from Synchro:

Quote

    Who can explain why the Tesla series connected bifilar carries twice the "Magnetization Impulse Charge" then the single wire coil of equal inductance?

Reply from Z:
Quote
When every two neighboring wires within pancake bifilar coil cancel their magnetism each other, then you indeed must exert more energy for achieving the same magnetization at certain distance from them.

One simply must laugh at these statements.
S. makes a false claim with respect to the Tesla Bifilar winding, and the answer Z. talks about the HAIRPIN bifilar winding which does cancel magnetism and inductance between two neighboring wires... whereas the Tesla Bifilar winding does not.

Another case where Z seems to confuse the Tesla winding with the HAIRPIN winding is shown in the diagram he posted:
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 07:00:30 PM
There are four types of bifilar winding, therefore I don't care which type you actually use - for short coils it actually doesn't matter.
The (pretense of) laughing is everything, what the dull pathoskeptics are usually capable of, once they lack rational arguments.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 08, 2017, 07:05:55 PM
Tesla's bifilar doe's not send a "Negative Current" into the ferrite core when the current's interrupted.

And neither do other coils.

The Tesla bifilar coil behaves in the same way as a straight winding coil in my "Coil Current Direction" demonstrations.

Both you and Zephir have been unable to explain why, if coil current reverses direction, the Blue LED flashes but the Green LED does not.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 08, 2017, 07:07:48 PM
There are four types of bifilar winding, therefore I don't care which type you actually use - for short coils it actually doesn't matter.
The (pretense of) laughing is everything, what the dull pathoskeptics are usually capable of, once they lack rational arguments.

Wrong again. It actually DOES matter, even for short coils.

You can talk about "rational arguments" all you like. If your premises are false then your conclusions are invalid, even if the form of the argument is correct. And you have stated many false premises here.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 07:09:42 PM
Quote
The Tesla bifilar coil behaves in the same way as a straight winding coil in my "Coil Current Direction" demonstrations.

Of course it doesn't - the impedance of coil always depends on its geometry, even for short coil - by your very own argument... :-)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 08, 2017, 07:13:30 PM
Now, enough of twaddling and try to think about this:

The magnets in general attract ferromagnetic material - like the piece of ferrite - without respect orientation of their poles, right? What will happen, if we place another magnet behind this ferrite?

If the 2nd magnet will be equally oriented to polarity of the 1st magnet, then its placement behind the ferrite will just increase the attractive force between them - OK?

But what will happen, if the 2nd magnet will get oriented against 1st magnet in mirror-like way? After then we can achieve the situation/geometry, during which the attractive force of 1st magnet to ferrite will get  exactly balanced with the repulsive force of the 2nd magnet. In another words, the ferrites would move freely along magnets without any cogging, because the magnetic forces of both magnets will compensate mutually. And the magnets would also move along each other without any macroscopic forces.

The final question is, what we could expect, if we would surround the ferrite with coil and if we attempt to collect current induced during mutual motion of magnets and/or ferrite between them.

Intuitively we could expect, that no electromotoric force will be induced within such a coil, because the effects of magnetic field of both counteracting magnets will compensate mutually. The polarity of magnetic field doesn't actually change within ferrite - the magnetic fields of both counteracting magnets will only change its saturation.

But how the situation will change, once we use bifilar coil at the place of collecting coil wound around ferrite? The bifilar coil is sensitive just to changes of magnetization - not the direction of magnetic field - because its wires collect magnetic field in alternating direction. Therefore it can induce the voltage and this voltage will not be affected with back-electromotive force, because the ferrites are already moving freely between magnets. In another words, any electricity induced into bifilar coil in this arrangement will be generated for free.

Of course the moving magnets can be replaced with electromagnets (a pair of bucking coils) with variable magnetic field and to achieve a solid state generator ("MEG") in this way. Its problem is, the variable magnetization of electromagnet cores will be the source of additional hysteresis loses, which may decrease the energy yield. If we use air cored coils, we would need to increase the working frequency of device significantly for to maintain energy density in acceptable range,  so that we'll get the Kapagen circuit.

The part I have highlighted is simply not true.  I have been working with the idea of trying to cancel the cogging effect for about 3 years now.  You are confusing the cogging effect with the generation of bemf.  They have nothing to do with each other.  I have built several different configurations of machines that had no cogging effect but they all still generated bemf.  If you have a design that shows something different then please present it.  I will respectfully then admit I am wrong, but only after you can show that I am wrong.

Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 08, 2017, 07:13:46 PM
@Tinselkola,

Where are you Bub? In bed with a hangover?

"The current on charge and discharge would be _infinite_, taking no time, which is what a vertical line means. Infinite slope! A change in charge over +no change in time+" Impossible you say?

You boldly accused me of misunderstanding, misrepresenting and prevaricating: How dare you be so insolent to me you cheap carnival huckster!

Tesla wrote at great length about the infinity of the spark, and spoke of it at conferences with contemporaries like Max Plank and Albert Einstien.

This is the crux of the infinite power of the impulse magnetisem, and not understood by either you or Milehigh!

I supply proof of it in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeJ5wHBpaf4

That is not proof of your contentions, it is merely a poorly performed demonstration where you do
not properly control your variables.


Let's review.
Here are some recent posts from Syncro.


(snip)
You're a compulsive psychopath and need help.


You're stinking drunk and a slob!

Barf, blubber puss sucking shyster schwienehunt!


Booze hound!

Can't you make up your mind?

In some countries these unfounded insults that you have thrown at me would be grounds for a lawsuit. In some other places, they would get you much worse than that.

Here, all they may get you is derision and BIPS (banning in plain sight, thanks MarkE, we miss you.) But you really should read the TOS again.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 07:16:56 PM
Quote
You are confusing the cogging effect with the generation of bemf.

Nope, I don't use these two concepts interchangeably and you're fighting with ghosts. The mirror-like arrangement of magnets eliminates the cogging (variable reluctance effect), the mirror-like arrangement of wires within bifilar coil eliminates the BEMF.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 08, 2017, 07:18:14 PM
Of course it doesn't - the impedance of coil always depends on its geometry, even for short coil - by your very own argument... :-)

Of course it does behave in the same way in the coil current test with respect to current direction when the power is interrupted .... I have tested it! Where are YOUR DEMONSTRATIONS, credible outside references, and/or experiments of your own that refute my findings and demonstrations?

Nowhere. All you have is words and faulty contentions that you cannot back up with your own work.

Once again I challenge you to explain the LED flashes in my Coil Current demonstrations, especially the second one. You have dodged this challenge several times... since the flashes clearly falsify your claim that the current reverses.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 08, 2017, 07:19:38 PM
Nope, I don't use these two concepts interchangeably and you're fighting with ghosts. The mirror-like arrangement of magnets eliminates the cogging, the mirror-like arrangement of wires within bifilar coil eliminates the BEMF.

There you go again. You have once again used the HAIRPIN bifilar characteristics when someone else (and this thread!) is talking about the TESLA SERIES_CONNECTED BIFILAR WINDING as described in his patent.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 07:22:42 PM
And neither do other coils.

The Tesla bifilar coil behaves in the same way as a straight winding coil in my "Coil Current Direction" demonstrations.

Both you and Zephir have been unable to explain why, if coil current reverses direction, the Blue LED flashes but the Green LED does not.


@Tinselkoala,


Apparently you're awakened from your alcoholic stupor. What about the non-infinite spark, and the imaginary "Negative Current"?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 08, 2017, 07:25:24 PM
It should be obvious that this man Zephir is an empty suit / talking head with no true contributions .

he lives By "don't confuse me with the facts My mind is made up "

your wasting oxygen and energy with this man, I asked him several times about SAV [or whatever]

the sound of Crickets ??

he was asked maybe fiffty times now about his tests with coils ?

he dances and performs... points over here <<<<<< points over there >>>>>>>>
Nothing !!

an empty suit ...

HEY ALLEN ??
you missing Aarons place that much already ??

follow terms of service or your view will change

and you can take that to the bank !!

and Zephir below
I'm not the talking head disputing a claim with no test data of your own

show where the test presented is wrong ?

you can't because it is not
now you add meaningless flavors to your nonsense

its not our first summer here we've seen you before ...all talk [ just noise

no action at all
and what about SAV ??

your act truly has gotten old and very predictable.

post an experiment to support your claims or leave this thread to evostar and his work







Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 07:25:49 PM
Quote
You have once again used the HAIRPIN bifilar characteristics when someone else (and this thread!) is talking about the TESLA SERIES_CONNECTED BIFILAR WINDING as described in his patent.

I know what I drew in context of my picture - and why I should care what someone else said here in different context? The thread title isn't about some particular bifilar coil configuration. We have four ones (http://i.imgur.com/GwPVM8W.gif).

Quote
It should be obvious that this man Zephir is an empty suit / talking head with no true contributions.

Lets the readers decide it, they have their own opinion ...BTW which exactly did you contribute here with? You're only doubting here, and doubting, and doubting... in 5797 posts already.. Yawn, it gets boring..
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 08, 2017, 07:31:47 PM

@Tinselkoala,


Apparently you're awakened from your alcoholic stupor. What about the non-infinite spark, and the imaginary "Negative Current"?

Preserved for posterity... and evidence.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 08, 2017, 07:34:51 PM
I know what I drew in context of my picture - and why I should care what someone else said here in different context? The thread title isn't about some particular bifilar coil configuration. We have four ones (http://i.imgur.com/GwPVM8W.gif).

Lets the readers decide it, they have their own opinion ...BTW which exactly did you contribute here with? You're only doubting here, and doubting, and doubting... Yawn, boring..

Spin it all you like, the fact remains that Synchro specifically said "tesla bifilar" in his question and you answered with the characteristics of the hairpin bifilar.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 07:42:56 PM
Quote
Synchro specifically said "tesla bifilar" in his question and you answered with the characteristics of the hairpin bifilar.

But this is an evostar's thread, isn't it? And I didn't draw my picture as a response for anyone's question here. Why I should care what @Synchro or whoever else has said somewhere in the middle of the thread? It has 500+ posts already. Get real for a moment at least.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 08, 2017, 07:48:52 PM
Nope, I don't use these two concepts interchangeably and you're fighting with ghosts. The mirror-like arrangement of magnets eliminates the cogging (variable reluctance effect), the mirror-like arrangement of wires within bifilar coil eliminates the BEMF.

Your answer in this post clearly contradicts your own previous post.  You clearly said that using opposing magnets eliminates cogging.  Then you said passing a bifilar coil through the magnets because it has no drag will have no BEMF.  And then as TK has pointed out you didn't even show a bifilar coil but the hairpin coil.  If you want to discuss electronics with real electronic techs you need to get your act together or go away.  Then come back with something more than a bunch of confused ideas.  Maybe even a real video showing you can actually do something besides post nonsense.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 07:54:57 PM
Quote
TK has pointed out you didn't even show a bifilar coil but the hairpin coil.

Huh? All these coils are bifilar (http://i.imgur.com/GwPVM8W.gif) - believe it or not... Hairpin coil is just a special type of bifilar coil - according to TinselKoala himself (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=OcFySCAxLzs).

My ideas aren't confused at all. What you can see bellow is actually a scalar wave dynamo or transformer. It generates electromotoric force not with changing of magnetic field orientation (B-field), but with magnetic field intensity, i.e. with A-field, which propagate with scalar longitudinal waves along it. That means, the ferromagnetic domain  within ferrite don't rotate/reorient itself - they pulsate instead like the bubbles inside the cavitation heater or Rosch' KPP buoyancy system. The important thing here is, such a system isn't fully time-arrow symmetric, because the speed of EM field propagation changes inside it in every half of its cycle. The saturation of ferrite changes its magnetic permeability and as such the speed of EM wave propagation in it.

The time arrow asymmetry (variable speed of energy propagation) is necessary condition for overunity in both electric, both mechanical systems. Once we introduce an energy inside the system with different speed, than this one when we draw it back again during each cycle, then we can achieve an energy disbalance. The difference in energy flux in form of transverse waves isn't indeed miraculously created, but it's replenished from omnipresent scalar (longitudinal) wave flux, i.e. from thermal fluctuations of material. What we are essentially doing is the pumping of oriented EM wave energy from chaotic thermal motion of ferromagnetic domains, which behave like myriads of tiny Maxwell daemons there.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 08, 2017, 07:58:15 PM
deleted, not worth the waste of time
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 08:10:02 PM
@Tinselkola,


Maybe the green LED is non-flickering because there's no flyback from your "Joule Thief" bifilar.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 08:35:12 PM
And neither do other coils.

The Tesla bifilar coil behaves in the same way as a straight winding coil in my "Coil Current Direction" demonstrations.

Both you and Zephir have been unable to explain why, if coil current reverses direction, the Blue LED flashes but the Green LED does not.


@Tinselkoala,


I stated that the Tesla bifilar does not generate negative current when the current's interrupted, and you replied that "neither do other coils". What about the "Ruhmkopff Coil Secondary"?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 08, 2017, 08:54:22 PM
Allen
dragging out the steel cage
we're giving this man his thread back

will post a link to the thread shortly

Ohh
and house rules ...no low blows ,Biting or eye pokes....
and TOS applies

what say yee
Yeah or nay??

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 08:56:31 PM
deleted, not worth the waste of time.
Quote


This quote says everything about this "Quack".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 09:02:25 PM
Allen
dragging out the steel cage
we're giving this man his thread back

will post a link to the thread shortly

Ohh
and house rules ...no low blows ,Biting or eye pokes....
and TOS applies

what say yee
Yeah or nay??


@Ramset,



Start a new thread for your "Free Association" click. This is a thread about Tesla's bifilar coil and should stay the thread.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 09:05:22 PM
Lidmotor stated softly, in one of his flyback videos, that after a PM exchange with one of our heavyweights that he realized the person in question really didn't understand the meaning of "Self Inductance". Anyone care to guess who?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 08, 2017, 09:22:19 PM
Syncro

if you noticed in the post you just quoted ?
read it again !!

 YES it will be in another thread !!
and TOS will apply
cleaning out the steel cage now ...

will have the thread link here in a bit



Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 08, 2017, 09:34:37 PM
Synchro
here is your new thread ,keep it clean...shut the lights off when you leave
and follow House rules TOS
all must follow house rules

it is a moderated area too

http://overunity.com/17217/investigating-the-claims-of-member-syncro-1/new/#new

respectfully
Chet K
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 10:19:57 PM
One eyed King in the land of the blind!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 09, 2017, 02:26:24 PM
Of course it does behave in the same way in the coil current test with respect to current direction when the power is interrupted .... I have tested it! Where are YOUR DEMONSTRATIONS, credible outside references, and/or experiments of your own that refute my findings and demonstrations?

Nowhere. All you have is words and faulty contentions that you cannot back up with your own work.

Once again I challenge you to explain the LED flashes in my Coil Current demonstrations, especially the second one. You have dodged this challenge several times... since the flashes clearly falsify your claim that the current reverses.

I think that many believe that because the voltage inverts across the coil,when the source current through the coil is interrupted,that the flow of current must also invert-change direction through the coil.

Yes,the voltage across the coil inverts,when the source current flowing through the coil is interrupted,but the current through the coil keeps flowing in the same direction-only now,the source is the collapsing magnetic field around the coil.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 09, 2017, 03:19:45 PM
Hi @Tinman,  I know that overunity people are all liberals by their very nature - but as a moderator you should move all off-topic comments into their corresponding threads - not to feed them with their discussion in their original thread. The question of current after interruption of coil is theoretical question of CLASSICAL physics. The overunity forums are losing their original drive and they get flooded with ignorant pathoskeptics - today most of progress actually comes from private researchers and the classical overunity forums are just watching this development in silent surprise. This is because the free hoarded community is maybe creative and inventive, but it remains undisciplined and lazy enough for implementation of its own ideas. What I'm missing here is streamlined brainstorming of experts leading to proposal and testing of particular circuits. The clueless senior twaddling is indeed mentally comfortable - but it leads nowhere.

If you want to achieve overunity, you should do many things in opposite way, than the common well behaving electricians are doing. The energy dissipating devices use transverse EM wave (light) - so you should use the longitudinal ones. Good boys electricians are using layered coils with serial windings - so you should use bifilar coils with alternating current in winding. Good electricians use planar capacitors with plates of equal area - so you have to use spherical capacitors with non-equal plates. Good boys electricians use DC current or AC current in harmonic waves - so you should use pulses. And so on...

Attached: simulation of coil breaker (http://i.imgur.com/FIgKvCL.gif) in Falstad's simulator (http://tinyurl.com/m6qwlbp)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 09, 2017, 03:20:13 PM
Assuming anyone's watched my 48 Hex nut locking video; How far can we stretch the wire and what's the upward limit on the number of nuts per spark of locking power?

Is the lone wire an inductor? How can it store power? No power stored equals zero flyback and zero negative current to the Hex nuts when the current's interrupted.

It's important to understand that a spark jumps between the battery electrode and the wire end before it's connected, and that it's this input spark that carries the magnetizing power.

No,it's the current flowing through the loop,that creates the magnetic field.
The loop being-your wire and battery.
This is the !so called! PMH effect,where the current flowing through the wire ,produces a magnetic field that radiates out to your circle of nut's,and holds them together-until one of the nuts is removed--the magnetic path is broken.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 09, 2017, 06:08:15 PM
I think that many believe that because the voltage inverts across the coil,when the source current through the coil is interrupted,that the flow of current must also invert-change direction through the coil.

Yes,the voltage across the coil inverts,when the source current flowing through the coil is interrupted,but the current through the coil keeps flowing in the same direction-only now,the source is the collapsing magnetic field around the coil.


Brad

@Tinman,

Which way does current flow in a Ruhmkopff Secondary Coil when the current's interrupted in the primary and can you define "Negative Current"?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 09, 2017, 06:15:49 PM
Synchro
the moderators here are volunteers with families to feed and full time jobs

your off topic [might be related maybe not]
post has been added here
http://overunity.com/17217/investigating-the-claims-of-member-synchro-1/msg503676/#new

where hopefully answers can follow with out making more of a mess here in evostars thread

which is also moderated thread by volunteers...if the TinMan's not halfway across the outback,
he's getting ready to go [snoozin ATM in OZ

respectfully
Chet K
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: icarus on April 09, 2017, 07:03:58 PM
For people interested some replications of the mini exciter.

Cheers

Nelson Rocha

Please Nelson control your PM

Thanx

Icarus
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 09, 2017, 08:43:57 PM
I think that many believe that because the voltage inverts across the coil,when the source current through the coil is interrupted,that the flow of current must also invert-change direction through the coil.

Yes,the voltage across the coil inverts,when the source current flowing through the coil is interrupted,but the current through the coil keeps flowing in the same direction-only now,the source is the collapsing magnetic field around the coil.


Brad

@Tinman,

Current reverses direction and travels in the same direction at the same time like the 60 Hz A.C. current in our overhead transmission lines; Like boarding a bus and moving toward the rear while the bus is accelerating forward. It may appear to a stationary observer that the bus passenger is standing still.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 09, 2017, 11:16:17 PM
Oh really? It goes both ways at the same time? I think I know some people like that. But the major transmission of electrical power over long distances doesn't.

Quote
High-voltage direct current (HVDC) is used to transmit large amounts of power over long distances or for interconnections between asynchronous grids. When electrical energy is to be transmitted over very long distances, the power lost in AC transmission becomes appreciable and it is less expensive to use direct current (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_current) instead of alternating current (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternating_current). For a very long transmission line, these lower losses (and reduced construction cost of a DC line) can offset the additional cost of the required converter stations at each end.
HVDC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current) is also used for submarine cables (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_power_cable) because AC cannot be supplied over distances of more than about 30 kilometres (19 mi), due to the fact that the cables produce too much reactive power[citation needed]. In these cases special high-voltage cables (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_cable) for DC are used. Submarine HVDC systems are often used to connect the electricity grids of islands, for example, between Great Britain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain) and continental Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Europe), between Great Britain and Ireland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland), between Tasmania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasmania) and the Australian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia) mainland, and between the North and South Islands of New Zealand (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand). Submarine connections up to 600 kilometres (370 mi) in length are presently in use.[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_transmission#cite_note-guarnieri_7-3-21)
HVDC links can be used to control problems in the grid with AC electricity flow. The power transmitted by an AC line increases as the phase angle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_angle) between source end voltage and destination ends increases, but too large a phase angle will allow the systems at either end of the line to fall out of step. Since the power flow in a DC link is controlled independently of the phases of the AC networks at either end of the link, this phase angle limit does not exist, and a DC link is always able to transfer its full rated power. A DC link therefore stabilizes the AC grid at either end, since power flow and phase angle can then be controlled independently.
As an example, to adjust the flow of AC power on a hypothetical line between Seattle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle) and Boston (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston) would require adjustment of the relative phase of the two regional electrical grids. This is an everyday occurrence in AC systems, but one that can become disrupted when AC system components fail and place unexpected loads on the remaining working grid system. With an HVDC line instead, such an interconnection would:
 Convert AC in Seattle into HVDC;
Use HVDC for the 3,000 miles of cross-country transmission; and
Convert the HVDC to locally synchronized AC in Boston,
 (and possibly in other cooperating cities along the transmission route). Such a system could be less prone to failure if parts of it were suddenly shut down. One example of a long DC transmission line is the Pacific DC Intertie (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_DC_Intertie) located in the Western United States (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_transmission (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_transmission)


--And neither does AC over shorter distances.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 09, 2017, 11:44:19 PM
@evostars,

Discharging a capacitor is like decanting water from a five gallon jug; Slow starting, followed by a strong gush  at .67, tapering off to a slow flow: Charging exactly the reverse, max charge rate at .33 capacity:


Are you saying that there is a delay in a cap discharge, due to the nature of the cap itself, or due to the impedance of the discharging device?

If we were to make a home made cap with foil, wax paper and say a straight copper wire to make end connections for each plate, which would be the better method of winding it? With the plate connection wires both starting at the beginning of the rolling, or 1 wire for the bottom plate at the beginning and the top plate wire at the end of the roll, and say its a 100 turns, would there be a difference in how the cap works in these 2 cases? Would one have more induction issues than the other?

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 09, 2017, 11:49:10 PM
Look at the graph he posted, in "support" of that claim.

Where, on that graph, is the maximum rate of charge? Where, on that graph, is the maximum rate of discharge?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 10, 2017, 12:15:16 AM
Hi @Tinman,  I know that overunity people are all liberals by their very nature - but as a moderator you should move all off-topic comments into their corresponding threads - not to feed them with their discussion in their original thread. The question of current after interruption of coil is theoretical question of CLASSICAL physics. The overunity forums are losing their original drive and they get flooded with ignorant pathoskeptics - today most of progress actually comes from private researchers and the classical overunity forums are just watching this development in silent surprise. This is because the free hoarded community is maybe creative and inventive, but it remains undisciplined and lazy enough for implementation of its own ideas. What I'm missing here is streamlined brainstorming of experts leading to proposal and testing of particular circuits. The clueless senior twaddling is indeed mentally comfortable - but it leads nowhere.

If you want to achieve overunity, you should do many things in opposite way, than the common well behaving electricians are doing. The energy dissipating devices use transverse EM wave (light) - so you should use the longitudinal ones. Good boys electricians are using layered coils with serial windings - so you should use bifilar coils with alternating current in winding. Good electricians use planar capacitors with plates of equal area - so you have to use spherical capacitors with non-equal plates. Good boys electricians use DC current or AC current in harmonic waves - so you should use pulses. And so on...

Attached: simulation of coil breaker (http://i.imgur.com/FIgKvCL.gif) in Falstad's simulator (http://tinyurl.com/m6qwlbp)



The way I understand the build up delay of self induction is that the input current through each turn induces the other turns with their 'outward expanding' magnetic fields, of which that self induction 'tries' to push against the input currents, giving us our delay to max current.  Now if the 'outward' expanding fields try to cause currents reverse of the inputs, then it is very logical that when the input is disconnected, that the magnetic field that was generated will now collapse 'inward' and will generate currents in the coil in the same direction as was the input current. If the field were expanding out, current will be in one direction, and that field collapsing inward will generate currents in the other direction.

Using the sim with the circuit that comes up as default, change the resistor values to very small and add a diode across the switch.  The cap can be made very small so that in real world circuit there isnt the big inrush to the cap from the input, which seems to be quite a bit of measured power in that instant.  Now when you turn on the switch, the cap charges, naturally due to the connections of the circuit, and the inductor starts to build its field. When you release the switch, the field collapses and charges the cap till the field is completely diminished, then the cap reverses the current through the coil and will send back most all of the input spent, back to the input.

You can slow down the sim to watch.  Like say if we did the same to a pulse motor coil, this simple quick reversal with the cap helps some in getting the input to the coil back to the dc source without complicating things to do so. Its like letting the lc go for 1 cycle, then back into the input.

Mags

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 10, 2017, 12:20:12 AM
@Tinman,

Current reverses direction and travels in the same direction at the same time like the 60 Hz A.C. current in our overhead transmission lines; Like boarding a bus and moving toward the rear while the bus is accelerating forward. It may appear to a stationary observer that the bus passenger is standing still.


I dont know if that bus analogy works unless the power towers and high tension lines were on the move. ???

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 10, 2017, 12:44:02 AM

Are you saying that there is a delay in a cap discharge, due to the nature of the cap itself, or due to the impedance of the discharging device?

If we were to make a home made cap with foil, wax paper and say a straight copper wire to make end connections for each plate, which would be the better method of winding it? With the plate connection wires both starting at the beginning of the rolling, or 1 wire for the bottom plate at the beginning and the top plate wire at the end of the roll, and say its a 100 turns, would there be a difference in how the cap works in these 2 cases? Would one have more induction issues than the other?

Mags


@Mags,


I don't want to compound the problem too much. I explained that my intention was to imply that the curves are non chiral and symmetrical. I also explained that there's an RC formula for the time that involves a resistor. Now, I don't want to be accused of trying to weasel out of a pickle, but if the capacitor is discharged through a high value resistor, wouldn't it take some additional time for the resistor to begin to pass the current? It would depend on which side of the resistor you measured the discharge from right?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 10, 2017, 01:09:57 AM
Look at the graph he posted, in "support" of that claim.

Where, on that graph, is the maximum rate of charge? Where, on that graph, is the maximum rate of discharge?


@Tinselkoala,


The maximum discharge is between 100% and 63% of the charge, the maximum charge level is between 0% and 37%, then it begins too slow down to 63% where the time frame elongates again to match the 37% level of the discharge. Everyone knows it takes longer to charge a capacitor after it's 63% full then at the beginning and conversely, it takes longer to discharge the remaining 37% as it empties out. We have an inverse but symmetrical curve. Got it?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 10, 2017, 01:21:25 AM
@Tinselkola,


You stated that a vertical discharge curve was impossible. What about Tesla's "Spark Gap Generator" discharge?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 10, 2017, 01:49:50 AM
@Tinselkoala,


Times up! The spark discharge is at the speed of light, and the graph line is on the perpendicular. Your turn to admit your wrong!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 10, 2017, 02:33:22 AM

@Mags,


I don't want to compound the problem too much. I explained that my intention was to imply that the curves are non chiral and symmetrical. I also explained that there's an RC formula for the time that involves a resistor. Now, I don't want to be accused of trying to weasel out of a pickle, but if the capacitor is discharged through a high value resistor, wouldn't it take some additional time for the resistor to begin to pass the current? It would depend on which side of the resistor you measured the discharge from right?


If the resistor were absent of induction, the discharge from the cap through the resistor would begin delivering max current instantly, max current determined by V/R. The resistance determines the time of complete discharge, more resistance, longer time to 0V. If we shrink from left to right the time chart of the discharge through a very high resistance compared to the short time it would take through a very low resistance, the curve should look the same, with the bulk of the charge diminished more quickly closer to the beginning of the discharge and the rate of discharge gets smaller the closer the cap reaches 0v.

If there is some sort of delay, what is causing the delay you express?

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 10, 2017, 02:36:06 AM

If the resistor were absent of induction, the discharge from the cap through the resistor would begin delivering max current instantly, max current determined by V/R. The resistance determines the time of complete discharge, more resistance, longer time to 0V. If we shrink from left to right the time chart of the discharge through a very high resistance compared to the short time it would take through a very low resistance, the curve should look the same, with the bulk of the charge diminished more quickly closer to the beginning of the discharge and the rate of discharge gets smaller the closer the cap reaches 0v.

If there is some sort of delay, what is causing the delay you express?

Mags

@Mags,

Eddy hysteresis. Worse in the bottle neck! I'm talking about the water flow through the bottle neck there, not the capacitor discharge. All comparisons are not exactly the same as the real thing.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 10, 2017, 03:19:11 AM

@Tinselkoala,


The maximum discharge is between 100% and 63% of the charge, the maximum charge level is between 0% and 37%, then it begins too slow down to 63% where the time frame elongates again to match the 37% level of the discharge. Everyone knows it takes longer to charge a capacitor after it's 63% full then at the beginning and conversely, it takes longer to discharge the remaining 37% as it empties out. We have an inverse but symmetrical curve. Got it?

Still trying to weasel out of your pickle, I see. What does the word "RATE" mean to you? How about "ASYMPTOTE"?

Clearly, the maximum charge "LEVEL" is also right at the beginning of the discharge, and the minimum charge "LEVEL" is at the very end.

GOT IT?

Yes, you have inverse and symmetrical curves. And these curves clearly show that the maximum charge RATE and the minimum charge LEVEL occur at the beginning of the charge, and the maximum discharge RATE and the maximum charge LEVEL occur at the beginning of the discharge. Not at the 33 or 67 percent charge levels.

But need I remind you once again what you actually said in your original claim?

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 10, 2017, 03:24:32 AM
@Tinselkoala,


Times up! The spark discharge is at the speed of light, and the graph line is on the perpendicular. Your turn to admit your wrong!

Nope. The spark discharge is not "zero resistance" nor is it at the speed of light, the speed of light is not infinite, and a perpendicular or rather vertical line on any quantity-time graph means that the quantity changes _instantly_, that is with zero time passing. And this does not occur in any real system, especially not capacitor discharge.

And it's "you're" not "your", as in "You're wrong yet again synchro." 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 10, 2017, 03:27:10 AM
@Mags,

Eddy hysteresis. Worse in the bottle neck! I'm talking about the water flow through the bottle neck there, not the capacitor discharge. All comparisons are not exactly the same as the real thing.

Now you have completely stopped making any sense at all.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 10, 2017, 03:33:46 AM

If the resistor were absent of induction, the discharge from the cap through the resistor would begin delivering max current instantly, max current determined by V/R. The resistance determines the time of complete discharge, more resistance, longer time to 0V. If we shrink from left to right the time chart of the discharge through a very high resistance compared to the short time it would take through a very low resistance, the curve should look the same, with the bulk of the charge diminished more quickly closer to the beginning of the discharge and the rate of discharge gets smaller the closer the cap reaches 0v.

If there is some sort of delay, what is causing the delay you express?

Mags

You are exactly right. And synchro's "delay" is the result of his not understanding what he is talking about. It may be possible to arrange inductances and resistances to give some maximum rate of charge-discharge at some point other than the beginning of the cycles, but that is not what synchro claimed. His claim is very clear in his own words and ever since then he has been trying to weasel out of admitting he was wrong, by constructing strawmen and moving goalposts.

If he thinks he can demonstrate otherwise by arranging some particular RCL circuit and measuring it on a scope ... let him do it. But it won't correspond to what he said in the beginning about _capacitors_.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 10, 2017, 04:42:52 AM
I mean seriously. This isn't exactly Rocket Science.

Or maybe it is.     :P


Below see Charge-Discharge curves of a 10 uF electrolytic capacitor charging to and discharging from approx. 5 volts. First scopeshot is with no resistor, second scopeshot is with 100R resistor, third scopeshot is with 1k resistor.  Where is the "bottleneck"? Where are the points of fastest charge rate, fastest discharge rate in each case?

(Disregard the HW frequency counter, it is off for some reason. The first shot is at 200 Hz, second is at about 60 Hz, the third shot is at 10 Hz.)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 10, 2017, 05:03:16 AM
Wow, I see they all look the same but the time base has changed.

Somebody told me that they are exponential functions, but the base is a special number.  Like it's not say a base of 10 like 10^x.  (10 to the power of x).  The base is this number "e" also known as Euler's number.

"e" = 2.7182818284590452353602874713527...

It's an irrational number and they have calculated it out to over a trillion digits.

The scope shots show a voltage waveform as an exponential function.  The slope of the voltage waveform is actually the current because we are looking at the voltage across a capacitor.  The current waveform is an exponential function also.  The slope of the current waveform is also an exponential function.  And the slope of that function is also an exponential function.  And the slope of the new function is also an exponential function.  In fact, it goes on forever.

It's a brain buster.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 10, 2017, 06:09:50 AM
I mean seriously. This isn't exactly Rocket Science.

Or maybe it is.     :P


Below see Charge-Discharge curves of a 10 uF electrolytic capacitor charging to and discharging from approx. 5 volts. First scopeshot is with no resistor, second scopeshot is with 100R resistor, third scopeshot is with 1k resistor.  Where is the "bottleneck"? Where are the points of fastest charge rate, fastest discharge rate in each case?

(Disregard the HW frequency counter, it is off for some reason. The first shot is at 200 Hz, second is at about 60 Hz, the third shot is at 10 Hz.)

Maybe for the sake of argument can you zoom in on the line of discharge.  At some point it may look like a flat line due to time scale, and maybe at that point a csr would be needed to see actual current if voltage drop is not visible.

Just thinkin

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 10, 2017, 10:59:18 AM
@Tinman,



Quote
Which way does current flow in a Ruhmkopff Secondary Coil when the current's interrupted in the primary

Are you talking about the ignition coil?-which was not invented by Ruhmkopff,but by Nicholas Callan in 1836.

First off,from what i have read,it seems as though we are talking about interrupting the current flow through a single coil/inductor,in which case,the voltage will invert across the coil/inductoor,but the current will continue to flow in the same direction.
If you are talking about an ignition coil,then the same applies with the secondary-only the end of the secondary is joined to the start of the primary-->remember,with an ignition coil,where points were used,it was the ground side of the primary that was switched via the points,and not the positive side of the primary. The end of the secondary was joined to the start of the primary(the positive end),and then the start of the secondary became the end in which the current flowed from,as that would be sent to the positive side of the spark plugs via the distributor.
So the ground(negative)was your engine block,and the sparkplug leads were your positive side.
So,as you can see,the current still flowed in the same direction through the secondary, when the points opened,and broke the current flow into the primary.

Quote
and can you define "Negative Current"?

The flow of current has no polarity-it has direction.
Voltage has polarity.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 10, 2017, 11:16:30 AM
 author=Zephir link=topic=17186.msg503665#msg503665


Quote
Hi @Tinman,  I know that overunity people are all liberals by their very nature - but as a moderator you should move all off-topic comments into their corresponding threads - not to feed them with their discussion in their original thread

You will find that nearly all threads here on OU.com,have !off topic!! conversation within them.
There is no way i have the time to be moving all off topic comments into other threads.
Some off topic conversations lead to people being taught things they never new-like the current flow through a coil,when the source current is interrupted.

Quote
The question of current after interruption of coil is theoretical question of CLASSICAL physics.

And there you go-a classic example.
It is not theoretical at all--it is fact,that the current will continue to flow in the same direction through the coil,when the source current is interrupted/disconnected .

Quote
The overunity forums are losing their original drive and they get flooded with ignorant pathoskeptics

Who are these !pathoskeptics! you speak of?-->those that correct others mistakes perhaps?.

Quote
today most of progress actually comes from private researchers and the classical overunity forums are just watching this development in silent surprise.

Could you point us in the direction of one of these !private! researchers that have achieved OU ?.

Quote
This is because the free hoarded community is maybe creative and inventive, but it remains undisciplined and lazy enough for implementation of its own ideas. What I'm missing here is streamlined brainstorming of experts leading to proposal and testing of particular circuits. The clueless senior twaddling is indeed mentally comfortable - but it leads nowhere.

There are many here that will build and test any circuit,that has a claim of OU behind it-including myself.
But what we have found is,when those that replicate claimed OU circuits,and are skilled in the art of EE and accurate measurement protocols,come up with under unity results,the claimant of the OU device simply say that we dont know what were doing-or we made errors in measurements.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 10, 2017, 11:35:25 AM
For those, who want to ask me a question, Personal message me. Dont do it via these posts. It will drown, and i won't see/read it.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 10, 2017, 11:42:49 AM
Quote
Who are these !pathoskeptics! you speak of?-->those that correct others mistakes perhaps?

The pathoskeptic is everyone who for example says, that overunity doesn't exist, because he never observed it during his tinkering (like @TinselKoala is saying) or that overunity doesn't exist, because it would be utilized already and awarded with Nobel prizes (@MileHigh and others). Such a nonsenses shouldn't be tolerated here...

From perspective of mainstream physicists whole the overunity subject is also mistake and they oppose it wildly, so that the usage of "mistake" word is subjective trolling too.
Once the bifilar coil exhibits self-capacitance, then its current after interruption may evolve differently, because it can behave like the capacitor too.
The idealized assumptions of mainstream physics trolls therefore will not apply here and only experiments can determine, what we will observe there.

Quote
There is no way i have the time to be moving all off topic comments into other threads

My question is, if it's possible to create discussion thread, where I could delete/hide all off-topic and trolls posts (including those of other moderators) according to my own opinion and to keep the subject coherent in this way?
You can set up this thread (http://overunity.com/15124/simplest-theory-of-overunity-devices-possible) in this way for example instead of creating a solely new one.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 10, 2017, 12:12:32 PM
You need to get your facts straight, Zephir, if you are going to be mentioning me or MH in your posts.

And you need to provide some evidence of your own for the outrageous claims you continue to make, while you dodge and weave without admitting the times you have been soundly refuted. You have _never_ posted a single demonstration or experiment of your own... and I know why: You cannot.

Explain the LED flashes in my Coil Current Demonstration (2) if you believe that current reverses when the power to a coil is interrupted. Why are flyback diodes often placed across inductors that are pulsed, and in which direction does the current flow through those diodes? How many times has this challenge been made to you now, without any response?  You know by now that you are wrong and that is why you avoid trying to answer. Admit it!


Quote
where I could delete/hide all off-topic and trolls posts (including those of other moderators) according to my own opinion

But didn't you say that this wasn't the place for opinions? Make up your hypocritical mind, why don't you?  If you want to be the censor, move to some other forum, like EF. I'm sure we will be happy to see you force your "opinions" on others over there.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 10, 2017, 12:30:10 PM
Nope. The spark discharge is not "zero resistance" nor is it at the speed of light, the speed of light is not infinite, and a perpendicular or rather vertical line on any quantity-time graph means that the quantity changes _instantly_, that is with zero time passing. And this does not occur in any real system, especially not capacitor discharge.

And it's "you're" not "your", as in "You're wrong yet again synchro."


@Tinselkoala,


The non-perpendicularity you're speaking of would require an electron microscope to visualize on a graph. The percentage of slope would be infinitesimal and impossible to ascertain with the naked eye, because the graph line would require some degree of thickness. What about Tinman's last comment about the imaginary existence of negative current, shared by Citfa, Verpies, Miilehigh and evidently you? You've conveniently dodged this issue as less important throughout the course of this thread; You and Mags act like the Jug comparison was some kind of unforgivable sacrilege. A poor comparison is not being impudently "dead wrong" like you.


What about the preposterous notion just posted again by Tinman that current can't reverse polarity, only voltage?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 10, 2017, 12:42:30 PM
Quote
And you need to provide some evidence of your own for the outrageous claims you continue to make

I already provided them (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq_qGHzYorAsR4sYi3m50sA) and you dismissed them without some evidence, so I've no reason/motivation to continue in discussion with you. The only way how to deal with pathoskeptics, who dismiss the evidence is to delete them - it makes the discussion way more useful for people, who did come at this forum to learn and explore new things. You should get banned already before years - you've many other forums where to go. You're systematically poisoning whole the overunity community (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?board=110.0) - not just this particular forum.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Acca on April 10, 2017, 12:48:33 PM
 I love this topic as it's soo..  ??? on topic  ...
 (http://exopolitics.org/secret-presidential-memo-anti-aging-free-energy/)

http://exopolitics.org/secret-presidential-memo-anti-aging-free-energy/ (http://exopolitics.org/secret-presidential-memo-anti-aging-free-energy/)

Acca...
 (http://exopolitics.org/secret-presidential-memo-anti-aging-free-energy/)

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Acca on April 10, 2017, 12:53:08 PM
It's exactly why I hate to write any more here,  as it's get sh*t on ..

Acca.

Sooo Long...
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 10, 2017, 12:54:14 PM
@Acca Nope, the topic of this thread is different and it's dedicated for those, who want to understand the behavior of bifilar coil.
Your post belongs here (http://overunity.com/17191/government-suppression-of-free-energy/45/#.WOtkJZeLVyA) and we already discussed it there.
If you want to have on-topic relevant discussions here,  you should also think of it, once you're posting here.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 10, 2017, 01:03:09 PM
 author=Zephir link=topic=17186.msg503736#msg503736 date=1491817369]



Quote
The pathoskeptic is everyone who for example says, that overunity doesn't exist, because he never observed it during his tinkering (like @TinselKoala is saying) or that overunity doesn't exist, because it would be utilized already and awarded with Nobel prizes (@MileHigh and others). Such a nonsenses shouldn't be tolerated here...

Well first off,i dont believe TK thinks OU can never be found,but more so that is has not been achieved yet,
Second--MileHigh is correct,in that if anyone was to come up with an OU device,then they most certainly would be up for a Nobel prize-along with the keys to the world.

Quote
From perspective of mainstream physicists whole the overunity subject is also mistake and they oppose it wildly, so that the usage of "mistake" word is subjective trolling too.

I dont think mainstream science has anything to offer,in the way of OU devices.
I believe that such devices are hidden away from mainstream science, and the public.

Quote
Once the bifilar coil exhibits self-capacitance, then its current after interruption may evolve differently, because it can behave like the capacitor too.

Although all inductors/coils have some self capacitance,the value of that capacitance is far to small to overcome the inductance values of said coil,and so,would never overcome the current flow had,when the source current is disrupted.

Quote
The idealized assumptions of mainstream physics trolls therefore will not apply here and only experiments can determine, what we will observe there.

I see that with just 220 odd posts,you must be relatively new here.
I can assure you that those here you think are trolls,are the very same people that have carried out thousands of experiments on the very subject at hand.

Can you be clear on what you believe this bifilar coil will achieve,and exactly what kind of bifilar coil are you referring to?.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 10, 2017, 01:23:55 PM
Quote
I don't think mainstream science has anything to offer, in the way of OU devices. I believe that such devices are hidden away from mainstream science, and the public.

The scientists are payed for being informed about all areas of their expertise. They actually know about overunity research very well, I've multiple evidence for it. But they decided to ignore and deny it actively, as it contradicts their own philosophy and religion system. The attitude of TinselKoala may serve as an example: he knows about overunity perfectly, yet he still denies it. The attitude toward overunity is therefore NOT matter of expertise at all. The censorship and dismissal of overunity findings is primarily the matter of public trolls like him, not some secret governmental agents.

Quote
I can assure you that those here you think are trolls,are the very same people that have carried out thousands of experiments on the very subject at hand.

The number of experiments doesn't matter, once you're ignorant, who doesn't believe in subject and who therefore doesn't know where to look for it. The replication of overunity finding is actually relatively simple - but you should remain focused to subject, instead of its denial and dismissal.

Quote
Although all inductors/coils have some self capacitance, the value of that capacitance is far to small to overcome the inductance values of said coil

This is a matter of geometry only. The capacitance between the two conductors in a bifilar winding (neglecting turn-to-turn effects in a coil) is the same whether the bifilar pair is wound in a coil or in a long straight line. The capacitance per unit length is C = πε0/[cosh-1(D/2R)], where D is the center-to-center spacing of the two round conductors, each of radius R. It could be simplified (Medhurst) to formula C = 0.46 * D (which is why the self-resonanating Kapagen coils are wound of copper pipes empirically).  Inductance of coil can be calculated for example here (http://). The signal velocity in an air-filled transmission line is c = 1/sqrt(LC), and it's impedance is Z = sqrt(L/C).

Quote
if anyone was to come up with an OU device,then they most certainly would be up for a Nobel prize-along with the keys to the world

You would die way before its first replication, not to say acceptation. The verification of heliocentric model has been delayed by 160 years, the replication of overunity in electrical circuit has been delayed 145 years (Cook 1871 (https://www.google.com/patents/US119825)), cold fusion finding 90 years (Panneth/Petters 1926 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cber.19260590860/abstract)), Woodward drive (http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00665932) 26 years, EMDrive (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=36313.0;attach=809343) 18 years and room superconductivity (http://www.seminarsonly.com/electrical & electronics/Ultraconductors.php) finding by 45 years (Grigorov 1984).

Why the hell are you believing, you would be recognized and celebrated faster? The scientific ignorance has no limits and its spans multiple centuries.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 10, 2017, 01:44:49 PM
For those having trouble with the current flow through an inductor,when the source current is interrupted,i have put together a very simple circuit,so as you can check your self.

As you can see by the way the LED 2 is orientated,current flow must remain in the same direction in order for it to remain lit during the off time of the FG(source current).
LED 1 will only be lit during the 50% on time of the FG(The source current)

The red arrows show the current path and direction during the on time of the source current,and the blue arrows show the current path and direction during the off time of the source current.

Hope this helps.

Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 10, 2017, 01:51:11 PM
This poor guy is never gonna get his thread back....

he also has a quieter topic here
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/20714-magnetic-field-bifilar-pancake-coil.html

@ Zephir
you carpet bomb the OU claims in the house of OU ,saying we close our eyes??

and our science friends too?? [calling them LIARS and Hiders of OU ??

PLEASE JUST ONE
""SEEING OU IS EASY"" experiment

PLEASE ??
atleast the tenth request...

Also sort of on topic claim from Allen[synchro ]

over here
http://overunity.com/17217/investigating-the-claims-of-member-synchro-1/msg503737/#new
there is a 48 magnet video and some nail video's of Allen's
he says there is an anomaly  being shown with the magnet vid

very very low input to do much work
as some here know I ran demolition jobs in NYC and did see many industrial magnets and the HUGE
support power required for them to run

many would love to see this "if real"
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 10, 2017, 02:12:33 PM
Quote
you carpet bomb the OU claims in the house of OU ,saying we close our eyes?

Not we - some people of us do it - and they even trying to "cover" the eyes of their peers (TinselKoala, MileHigh, Ramset  and another trolls).

Quote
and our science friends too?? - calling them LIARS and Hiders of OU??

Which "science friends" do you have on mind? The liars and hiders aren't OUR friends in general.

Quote
""SEEING OU IS EASY"" experiment

I already linked them also many times: small scale (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5fsiwmkqdA), larger scale (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7jJQiytd-w), largest scale (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmdKVecQhXs)...
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 10, 2017, 02:26:47 PM
Zephir
Your a new Kid here[and acting more like a Child as time goes by
why do you think there is an OU forum here?

yes your carpet bomb of posts is one reason

but now you call us liars and show no evidence?

You tube videos is your evidence ??

here

http://overunity.com/12736/kapanadze-cousin-dally-free-energy/msg503680/#msg503680


also to note
a new moderated thread will be started for the Nelson circuit here

Zephir
sad you wouldn't actually work here...
just post things we all have seen a thousand times at the OU forum

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 10, 2017, 02:28:03 PM
Quote evostars at EF

"That other forum" is clearly not properly moderated. After alot of offtopc shouting and cursing, the moderator himself has joined the offtopic discussion.

As i told you in my reply PM to you--i cannot/will not be some form of dictator,and decide what is and is not allowed on a thread-other than foul language.

This thread is about inductors/coil's,and so,anything relating to any type of inductor/coil,should be able to be discussed without being censored-->and current flow direction through an inductor,when the source current is interrupted, is a vital point to any experimenter.

So,just because things dont go your way,and things are not censored/modderated  to !your! liking,dont go spitting the dummy,and plaster crap all over other forums.

If this forum is so bad,then just leave--it's that simple.

BTW,i watched your below video,and i liked what i saw--i even gave you a thumbs up.
Infact,i am going to wind another bifilar pancake coil,and do some more experimenting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhY27Zoor-Q&feature=youtu.be

I wish to see if i raise the frequency high enough,whether or not the current flow will actually reverse,due to self capacitance.

Now im off to watch your other video's.


Brad

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 10, 2017, 02:36:20 PM
Quote
i am going to wind another bifilar pancake coil,and do some more experimenting.
The winding of bifilar coil will not help you without theory - you should read and know, how to use it.
Otherwise you'll get into position of tribesmen, who believe they will fly if they construct plane from bamboo.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 10, 2017, 02:39:09 PM
@Tinselkoala,

You're showing us your over magnified view of the Moby "Spark Gap Slope" while at the same time offering us a blindfold view of your nothing "Negative Current"; These outrages are coupled with your routine compulsive vitriolic shamelessness! Have you no sense of common decency?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 10, 2017, 02:44:21 PM
The winding of bifilar coil will not help you without theory - you should read and know, how to use it.
Otherwise you'll get into position of tribesmen, who believe they will fly if they construct plane from bamboo.

Perhaps you should go check out my youtube chanel,and then you will know that this tribesman needs no plane to fly  :D.

Some errors in your video.
1-The magnetic field will never be stable around your coil,until such time as the current flowing through it is continuous and of a stable value.

2- The magnetic field around your coil,will be the same as that found around a donut,or speaker magnet. At the center of your coil,the north field will pass through the center hole,and merge with the south field--it will not take a long trip around the outside of the coil,like you explained in your video.

Below is a pic of how your field will be around your pancake coil.

Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 10, 2017, 02:49:33 PM
Quote
Some errors in your video. The magnetic field will never be stable around your coil,until such time as the current flowing through it is continuous and of a stable value. The magnetic field around your coil,will be the same as that found around a donut,or speaker magnet. The north will pass through the center hole,and merge with the south field--it will not take a long trip around the outside of the coil,like you explained in your video.

I dunno, which video are you talking about. Of course Infinity SAV Team device generates overunity from variable, i.e. unstable magnetic field around bifilar coils.
What are you talking about long trip of north? I don't travel into Arctic anywhere... The field about coils in Infinity SAV videos is anapolar.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 10, 2017, 02:49:52 PM
@Tinselkoala,

You're showing us your over magnified view of the Moby "Spark Gap Slope" while at the same time offering us a blindfold view of your nothing "Negative Current"; These outrages are coupled with your routine compulsive vitriolic shamelessness! Have you no sense of common decency?

Tell us all synchro--how dose current flow have a !negative! value?--or a positive one for that matter.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 10, 2017, 02:59:41 PM
. Of course Infinity SAV Team device generates overunity from variable, i.e. unstable magnetic field around bifilar coils.


Well i can see this is going to be hard  ::)

Quote
I dunno, which video are you talking about

How about the one i posted the link to--the only one i posted the link to.  ::)

Quote
What are you talking about long trip of north? I don't travel into Arctic anywhere... The field about coils in Infinity SAV videos is anapolar.

Enjoy-im out.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 10, 2017, 03:03:33 PM
I dunno, which video are you talking about. Of course Infinity SAV Team device generates overunity from variable, i.e. unstable magnetic field around bifilar coils.
.

The below is a hoax--can be easily replicated.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 10, 2017, 03:06:25 PM
Quote
Well i can see this is going to be hard

If we want to have matter of facts forum, the moderators should give an examples - not to contribute to silly trolling.

Quote
The below is a hoax--can be easily replicated.

So why it wasn't? This is the same situation, like with cold fusion or room temperature superconductivity or antigravity:
everyone is immediately sure, these are all hoaxes - but where the experimental evidence is?

This is why I'm saying, this forum is flooded with patoskeptic trolls: no one is behaving normally here...
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 10, 2017, 03:25:46 PM
No the Zephir doesn't post his own work for investigation
he is a salesman for you tube hits and ???

Zephir ,you mixed up a reply to the thread founder here evostars [remember where you are ???

you are running all over the forum dropping ....errr .... bits of wisdom
copy paste and you tube links
you are banning ,firing accusing of lies etc etc etc

a very old act here
next time you come back ,[please work on the act while your gone]

please try to be more respectful of threads and topics here ,and maybe not so busy with
"you tube evidence" and copy paste 5 second google search stuff

just one experiment ?????????
your quote
""OU is easy"

Please no you tube evidence that OU is easy !!
would take 25 seconds of you tube searches to show 100000's of that phony stuff

an actual experiment ??
before you leave ??

just one ??

Last call ???
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 10, 2017, 03:44:02 PM
Two views through a telescope: One microscopic view of an invisible "Spark Gap Discharge Slope" from one end, and an over magnified view of a "Jovian Rat" misrepresenting a resistor discharge curve from the other.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 10, 2017, 03:58:46 PM
Quote
an actual experiment, before you leave, just one

You already got three links - or not? How the situation would change for you, if you would get four ones?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 10, 2017, 05:49:21 PM
I see that Evostars has retreated to EF and is now nestled in with some supporters.  This is good for him because chances are whatever he chooses to disbelieve or ignore will be supported by people in the thread.  The wagons have been circled to protect them against the Arrows of Knowledge.  (Anybody remember the LEDs of Doom?)

So this is an allegorical posting about Thunderf00t and the Solar Freaking Roadways.  I am assuming that many of you know about the Solar Freaking Roadways.  Almost four million bucks and almost nothing to show for it!

I took the time to arrange all of Thunderf00t's clips in chronological order for your viewing pleasure.  Watch the Arrows of Knowledge slice though the Solar Freaking Roadways.  A wise man or woman after watching this might want to launch the Arrows of Knowledge at the nearly useless bifilar freaking pancake coil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H901KdXgHs4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3ftXinT4jI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI8c2f8r0UU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocV-RnVQdcs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeK5GI6Un8Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mzzz5DdzyWY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIFNzCUo028
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pIfo1Dynjg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P90Y71ThfQs

There is a LOT to be learned from Thunderf00t if you aren't aware of his YouTube channel.  The same critical thinking skills and respect for the application of knowledge and rational analysis can be applied to the bifilar freaking pancake coil or any other subject matter.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 10, 2017, 07:37:31 PM
No the Zephir doesn't post his own work for investigation
he is a salesman for you tube hits and ???

Zephir ,you mixed up a reply to the thread founder here evostars [remember where you are ???

you are running all over the forum dropping ....errr .... bits of wisdom
copy paste and you tube links
you are banning ,firing accusing of lies etc etc etc

a very old act here
next time you come back ,[please work on the act while your gone]

please try to be more respectful of threads and topics here ,and maybe not so busy with
"you tube evidence" and copy paste 5 second google search stuff

just one experiment ??? ??? ???
your quote
""OU is easy"

Please no you tube evidence that OU is easy !!
would take 25 seconds of you tube searches to show 100000's of that phony stuff

an actual experiment ??
before you leave ??

just one ??

Last call ???

Hey Chet,

I have figured out the true identity of Zephir.  He is Bro Mikey from EF.  He is using exactly the same tactics Bro Mikey loves to use.  He attacks those that dare to ask real questions because he doesn't have the technical knowledge to carry on a real discussion.  He posts over and over again fake videos and claim them to be real even after most of them have already been proven fake.  He presents no real evidence that he himself has actually done any true research.  If he is not Bro Mikey then he must be his twin brother because both of them act identical on these two forums.  If anyone doubts this just go to EF and read some of the junk Bro Mikey posts and compare it to Zephir's posts.  If you didn't look at the name you would not be able to tell which one wrote which post.  I guess it doesn't matter which name he uses since it is obvious both names are the same person.

Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 10, 2017, 07:50:10 PM
Not we - some people of us do it - and they even trying to "cover" the eyes of their peers (TinselKoala, MileHigh, Ramset  and another trolls).

Which "science friends" do you have on mind? The liars and hiders aren't OUR friends in general.

I already linked them also many times: small scale (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5fsiwmkqdA), larger scale (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7jJQiytd-w), largest scale (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmdKVecQhXs)...

You are asked to provide evidence of your own for your outrageous claims, and you link once again to "Infinity SAV Team", a bunch of fakers and fraudsters angling for investors and ad money? That says more about YOU than it says about any "free energy" or overunity.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 10, 2017, 07:58:08 PM
Well
I have no bad history with bro Mikey [he may have punched me a few times]

It doesn't really matter who he is [Zephir] actually posts some very interesting things
sort of like the latest hits of OU past and present.

my problem with Zephir is he is calling Us liars and frauds...
this is top shelf TOS violation here ,for an anonymous man to come here hiding behind the "Zephir"
and call me a Liar and cheat [most posting here have been called this  too

one thing is certain ...
very little manliness there...
like a little Kid throwing stones at strangers from a hiding place...

and still no experiments ..
just You tube Proof...we are supposed to figure out from back engineered you tube ?
this quote from Zephir OU is easy


enuff time wasted here...


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 10, 2017, 08:00:08 PM
Two views through a telescope: One microscopic view of an invisible "Spark Gap Discharge Slope" from one end, and an over magnified view of a "Jovian Rat" misrepresenting a resistor discharge curve from the other.

Are you talking about me? Then once again you betray the fact that you will lie about and misrepresent the work of others, as well as misrepresenting your own "work". If you think you can refute me with checkable valid outside references, experiments or demonstrations of your own, go ahead and do it. It took me less than 15 minutes with a scope, function generator, capacitor and a couple of resistors to ONCE AGAIN demonstrate that you are wrong about your ridiculous contentions about capacitor charge-discharge RATES.

And what exactly is a "resistor discharge curve" ? Do resistors now store energy and release energy according to you?  Are you accusing me of faking a demonstration? When ANYONE with a scope, FG, resistors and capacitors -- and the actual knowledge to use them -- can repeat my demonstration and get exactly the same results? And the same is true for every other demonstration I have published: the details are publicly available and anyone with the kit can repeat them for themselves. 

You really are hilarious. I'm about to run out of ROFLs but you get another one anyway.   (when I run out, I'll have to start telling the Drop Bear to pay your comments a visit)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 10, 2017, 08:05:45 PM
Hey Chet,

I have figured out the true identity of Zephir.  He is Bro Mikey from EF.  He is using exactly the same tactics Bro Mikey loves to use.  He attacks those that dare to ask real questions because he doesn't have the technical knowledge to carry on a real discussion.  He posts over and over again fake videos and claim them to be real even after most of them have already been proven fake.  He presents no real evidence that he himself has actually done any true research.  If he is not Bro Mikey then he must be his twin brother because both of them act identical on these two forums.  If anyone doubts this just go to EF and read some of the junk Bro Mikey posts and compare it to Zephir's posts.  If you didn't look at the name you would not be able to tell which one wrote which post.  I guess it doesn't matter which name he uses since it is obvious both names are the same person.

Carroll

But but... where are the huge fonts and multicolored text?    ;D   
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 10, 2017, 08:18:34 PM
TinselKoala, MileHigh, ramset, citfta - like I've said: ignorant trolls... Welcome at my ignore list.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 10, 2017, 09:57:31 PM
A typical response from someone who makes outrageous claims that he cannot back up with actual evidence, when challenged to do so.

Coil current reversal when power is interrupted? Disproved by me and by TinMan and by hundreds of thousands of circuit designers who put flyback diodes across inductors, as well as by Faraday's Law of Induction. But Zephir still has not retracted his claim nor has he explained the LEDs lighting in TM's or my demonstrations, nor has he produced any experiment or demonstration of his own in an attempt to refute us.

Overunity is easy? And when Zephir is challenged to provide evidence, he posts links to Infinity SAV Team ! Why not Innova Tehno, or Veproject, or the Pakistani mo-gens, or even the guy who plugs his power strip into itself and then runs a lightbulb?  What is "easy" is to fool Zephir, apparently.

Falsely characterizing what I do and don't believe? Yes, please do put me on your Ignore List so you don't have to notice when you are soundly refuted over and over again when you make your false claims.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 10, 2017, 10:14:31 PM
A typical response from someone who makes outrageous claims that he cannot back up with actual evidence, when challenged to do so.

Coil current reversal when power is interrupted? Disproved by me and by TinMan and by hundreds of thousands of circuit designers who put flyback diodes across inductors, as well as by Faraday's Law of Induction. But Zephir still has not retracted his claim nor has he explained the LEDs lighting in TM's or my demonstrations, nor has he produced any experiment or demonstration of his own in an attempt to refute us.

Overunity is easy? And when Zephir is challenged to provide evidence, he posts links to Infinity SAV Team ! Why not Innova Tehno, or Veproject, or the Pakistani mo-gens, or even the guy who plugs his power strip into itself and then runs a lightbulb?  What is "easy" is to fool Zephir, apparently.

Falsely characterizing what I do and don't believe? Yes, please do put me on your Ignore List so you don't have to notice when you are soundly refuted over and over again when you make your false claims.

@Tinselkoala,

You charlatans had me flummoxed with your cute double entendre a year and a half ago. I retreated to Energetic Forum as Allen Burgess and initiated a thread entitled "Flyback Current Reversal". We heard from lawrence Tsung who cleared the entire matter up with the term "Negative Current. It's high time you knocked the crap off. Everyone can find a minus sign on every analog amp meter. Negative current can travel in the same direction as positive current. Denying the existence of "Negative Current" as Citfa doe's (Negative Dose) is just a cheap con trick. When are you gonna grow up?   

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: starcruiser on April 10, 2017, 10:26:49 PM

Wrong again! All real wires have resistance and ALL REAL CAPACITORS do too. Look up "ESR" wrt capacitors. For this claim of yours to be true you would have to have a capacitor with zero resistance and a connection with zero resistance, both impossible in reality, and the current on charge and discharge would be _infinite_, taking no time, which is what a vertical line means. Infinite slope! A change in charge over +no change in time+ !!!! Ridiculous on the face of it, as everyone _actually_ knows.
 
Good luck with that.

Anyone with a scope and the wit to use it can prove you wrong in fifteen minutes.

You want to keep moving goalposts and constructing your strawman arguments instead of admitting that you were wrong, go ahead. You'll wind up here just like you wound up at EF: nobody pays attention to you since they all know that you are full of yourself, you misrepresent and misunderstand and prevaricate, and you will never admit that you are wrong.



TK,

1st TC in either which is approx 63% of the capacitors charging or discharging capacity, it is fast to start and slows in either case (charge or discharge) the current curve is kind of opposite though.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 10, 2017, 11:08:59 PM
Dr. Tsung went further and stated that "Negative Current" was the pathway to overunity. Everyone knows that TK's click of frauds are just paid sock puppets for the fossil fuel lobby.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 10, 2017, 11:34:53 PM
Dr. Tsung went further and stated that "Negative Current" was the pathway to overunity. Everyone knows that TK's click of frauds are just paid sock puppets for the fossil fuel lobby.

LOL   In Kirchhoff's Current Law all currents entering a node in a circuit must sum to zero.  The convention is that currents entering a node are denoted as positive currents and currents exiting a node are denoted as negative currents.  "Positive" or "negative" merely denote the direction of the current flow.  There is no such thing as "negative current" in the way I suspect some people might be thinking.

“The algebraic sum of all currents entering and exiting a node must equal zero”

"That is, if we assign a mathematical sign (polarity) to each current, denoting whether they enter (+) or exit (-) a node, we can add them together to arrive at a total of zero, guaranteed."

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/direct-current/chpt-6/kirchhoffs-current-law-kcl/

So all of the fussing and flustering and fussbudgeting and the general spreading around of misery and drama and unhappiness and insults about this subject can now stop.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 10, 2017, 11:58:48 PM
LOL   In Kirchhoff's Current Law all currents entering a node in a circuit must sum to zero.  The convention is that currents entering a node are denoted as positive currents and currents exiting a node are denoted as negative currents.  "Positive" or "negative" merely denote the direction of the current flow.  There is no such thing as "negative current" in the way I suspect some people might be thinking.

“The algebraic sum of all currents entering and exiting a node must equal zero”

"That is, if we assign a mathematical sign (polarity) to each current, denoting whether they enter (+) or exit (-) a node, we can add them together to arrive at a total of zero, guaranteed."

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/direct-current/chpt-6/kirchhoffs-current-law-kcl/

So all of the fussing and flustering and fussbudgeting and the general spreading around of misery and drama and unhappiness and insults about this subject can now stop.

@Milehigh,

Define "Alternating Current".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 12:09:34 AM
Here's some help for Dr. Weizsacker:

"Either as a voltage switching polarity or as a current switching direction back and forth, this “kind” of electricity is known as Alternating Current (AC)".

Milehigh states AC current destroys itself and factors out to zero! Here it is:

"In Kirchhoff's Current Law all currents entering a node in a circuit must sum to zero".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 11, 2017, 12:24:53 AM
Bro Mikey II and Allen B. are so mixed up in their thinking they believe they can discover something new when they obviously don't understand what has already been well established.  Most of these guys like them want to portray Tesla as some great genius who magically created all his wonderful inventions.  Tesla was a true genius.  There is no doubt about that.  What they keep ignoring was that Tesla had a very strong electrical education before he went on to take it farther.  I have studied Tesla for over 50 years and he many times has mentioned inventors before him that learned something and then he applied it in a different way.  He did not ignore the research and education he had gotten.  He built on that.  You can try to put down those of us that have strong electronic backgrounds all you want but in the end it will be someone like us that will find the secret to OU if it exists.

OU, if possible will be found by those that clearly know what they doing and have direction and insight into what they are doing.  It will not be found by someone blindly stumbling around in the dark that believes anything they see on DumbTube.  I know TK has spent countless hours checking out supposed OU circuits and machines.  I have also been doing the same thing for about 10 years now.  I don't think MileHigh believes OU is possible so we have agreed to respectfully disagree with no name calling or hard feelings.  I hope some day to be able to show him something that will change his mind about that.  In the mean time he is a good check for those of us that sometimes get over excited by a supposed new machine or circuit.  Most serious researchers don't have a problem with peer review.  Only those with a hidden agenda would balk at a peer review.

Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 12:44:18 AM
Bro Mikey II and Allen B. are so mixed up in their thinking they believe they can discover something new when they obviously don't understand what has already been well established.  Most of these guys like them want to portray Tesla as some great genius who magically created all his wonderful inventions.  Tesla was a true genius.  There is no doubt about that.  What they keep ignoring was that Tesla had a very strong electrical education before he went on to take it farther.  I have studied Tesla for over 50 years and he many times has mentioned inventors before him that learned something and then he applied it in a different way.  He did not ignore the research and education he had gotten.  He built on that.  You can try to put down those of us that have strong electronic backgrounds all you want but in the end it will be someone like us that will find the secret to OU if it exists.

OU, if possible will be found by those that clearly know what they doing and have direction and insight into what they are doing.  It will not be found by someone blindly stumbling around in the dark that believes anything they see on DumbTube.  I know TK has spent countless hours checking out supposed OU circuits and machines.  I have also been doing the same thing for about 10 years now.  I don't think MileHigh believes OU is possible so we have agreed to respectfully disagree with no name calling or hard feelings.  I hope some day to be able to show him something that will change his mind about that.  In the mean time he is a good check for those of us that sometimes get over excited by a supposed new machine or circuit.  Most serious researchers don't have a problem with peer review.  Only those with a hidden agenda would balk at a peer review.

Respectfully,
Carroll

Here's a quote from a personal message to me by Citfa dated July 16 2016:

"You are also still incorrect about the current reversal.  Just because you got someone else to agree with your misunderstanding about inductors does not change the facts of how they really work.  I am 70 years old and have worked in electronics as my career for over 50 years.  You are a beginner with a bad attitude who refuses to listen to those that try to help you".

I am not a beginner. I too am 70 years old. I was tutored by David T. Dinan, a graduate fellow at M.I.T. who invited me to tour a scarpyard in western New Jersey to view an old Tesla electro-magnet in 1962, when I was 15 years of age.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 11, 2017, 01:05:46 AM
Synchro
where's the scrap yard ?

western jersey ??

my old stomping grounds, shipped Thousands of tonnes to A western jersey scrap yard... one in particular?

Where was it ?

I'll be down that way quite a bit soon [for work]
will gladly ask around about that [and see some old friends too]

??

what do you remember about it?

who's iron?[drive unit

what made it so special ?






Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 01:11:52 AM
@Citfa,

You have pathologically denied that there's any such thing as "Current Reversal"; What do you make of this portion of the definition of alternating current? "AC current is switching direction back and forth".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 01:13:24 AM
Synchro
where's the scrap yard ?

western jersey ??

my old stomping grounds, shipped Thousands of tonnes to A western jersey scrap yard... one in particular?

Where was it ?

I'll be down that way quite a bit soon [for work]
will gladly ask around about that [and see some old friends too]

??

what do you remember about it?

who's iron?[drive unit

Too soon.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 01:34:21 AM
You see what's going on here folks; This Citfa guy spent his whole life studying electronics and never understood what alternating current is!

Tinselkoala never understood what self inductance is!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 11, 2017, 01:39:35 AM
They're all organized trolls, whose agenda is to disrupt every serious discussion of overunity.
They sh*t bricks once someone starts with real information about it.
Only dull laymen posts, textbooks trivia and silly conspiracy theories (chemtrails?!) which are ridiculing overunity topic are allowed here.
The whole purpose of this forum is to make overunity research untrustful in the eyes of random visitors, because opened censorship would be too conspicuous. This is how the disinfo is made these days.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 11, 2017, 02:10:32 AM
You see what's going on here folks; This Citfa guy spent his whole life studying electronics and never understood what alternating current is!

Tinselkoala never understood what self inductance is!

Yes it is very clear what is going on here.  You have been proven wrong by about 5 different people now with videos and scope shots and circuits that all prove current does not reverse during coil discharge.  So instead of admitting you were wrong you try to change the subject once again.  Alternating Current has absolutely nothing to do with coil discharge.  You just keep digging yourself into a deeper hole with your mistaken ideas.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 11, 2017, 02:14:39 AM
Zephir
Quote

The whole purpose of this forum is to make overunity research untrustful in the eyes of random visitors, because opened censorship would be too conspicuous. This is how the disinfo is made these days.
end quote

you have a problem with how Stefan runs his forum?


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 11, 2017, 02:26:43 AM
I posted this a while back but I am going to post it again for the benefit (maybe) of the people that don't seem to like the idea of peer review.

I couple of years ago I put together a circuit that was showing more power out than in.  I was excited.  I shared it on a forum and Luc asked if he could replicate it.  I knew his reputation and of course said yes.  When he got it completed he did not get the same results I did.  We went over together the circuit and his was exactly like mine.  He then suggested I recheck my meters.  When I did I found that the trusty meter I had been using for years was actually reading the input power much lower than it really was.  It had always been very accurate before so something had happened to it.  I thanked Luc for helping me and apologized for getting everyone excited over another circuit that didn't pan out.  That is what peer review is about.  We check each other and verify or not the results someone claims.

Zephir, your idea that someone should be banned for wanting answers is totally ridiculous.  If you don't like the way this forum operates, there is no one forcing you to stay.  However I am pretty sure you must have another agenda.  You seem to have only one goal and that is to disrupt as many threads on this forum as you can.  I don't have any authority here or I would ban you to one thread only and not allow you to disrupt all the threads you seem intent on disrupting.

Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 02:47:58 AM
Yes it is very clear what is going on here.  You have been proven wrong by about 5 different people now with videos and scope shots and circuits that all prove current does not reverse during coil discharge.  So instead of admitting you were wrong you try to change the subject once again.  Alternating Current has absolutely nothing to do with coil discharge.  You just keep digging yourself into a deeper hole with your mistaken ideas.


@Citfa,


We know who these five disinformation agents are. The Ruhmkopff coil is a Hi-voltage transformer inverter. It generates AC current. The negative portion of the sine wave shows up as a curve beneath the zero line on your scope. This "Negative Current" is generated by the magnetic field collapse that occurs when current is interuppted to the nested primary coil. Both positive and negative current flow in the same direction out the secondary coil electrode. .
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 11, 2017, 02:56:51 AM
Allen
you need to make a video of your claim ?

or guide me thru a video
tell me what to do?

step by step
 or show your own work..






Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 11, 2017, 02:58:25 AM

@Citfa,


We know who these five disinformation agents are. The Ruhmkopff coil is a Hi-voltage transformer inverter. It generates AC current. The negative portion of the sine wave shows up as a curve beneath the zero line on your scope. This "Negative Current" is generated by the magnetic field collapse that occurs when current is interuppted to the nested primary coil. Both positive and negative current flow in the same direction out the secondary coil electrode. .

Prove it!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 03:08:38 AM
Prove it!


@Citfa,


Knock it off!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Searcher1o1 on April 11, 2017, 03:09:34 AM
T. K.                              Battery is source when switch is on - coil becomes the source when switch is off
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 03:09:45 AM
@Tinsekoala,


You're up! Define a "Negative Micro-Henry".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 11, 2017, 03:12:34 AM
Allen
your up


you need to make a video of your claim ?

or guide me thru a video
tell me what to do?

step by step
 or show your own work. to show where others have failed ?

.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 03:15:03 AM
Allen
your up


you need to make a video of your claim ?

or guide me thru a video
tell me what to do?

step by step
 or show your own work. to show where others have failed ?

.


@ramset,


I have over 40 videos on my Youtube channel as zebok3. Help yourself.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 11, 2017, 03:19:34 AM
Allen
Please pick one and post it here for replication ?

and what does "too soon" mean ?[your answer for where I could find this scrapyard magnet in Jersey ?

I have plenty of friends who worked on these machines ?

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 11, 2017, 03:25:11 AM

@Citfa,


We know who these five disinformation agents are.

And yet you cannot refute anything that any of these 5 people AND MORE say, and they have proven you wrong time and time again. You have posted more demonstrably false DISinformation here than I can shake a stick at. It's practically a fulltime job keeping up with your false claims, misrepresentations and weaseling.



Quote
The Ruhmkopff coil is a Hi-voltage transformer inverter. It generates AC current. The negative portion of the sine wave shows up as a curve beneath the zero line on your scope.

 That much at least is correct.  As several people have tried to explain to you, current is a flow of charge. Going one way you can call it "negative" and going the other way you can call it "positive" if you like, even though that is incorrect. Current (conventionally) flows from the more Positive pole of a source to the more Negative pole, always. And of course this is the convention that Ben Franklin left us with before it was understood that the Electron is the carrier of the unit Negative charge and that charge in fact flows from the more Negative pole to the more Positive pole.

In fact, one could claim with some justification that ALL electric current in wires is "negative"... since it is the flow of negative charge.

Quote
Both positive and negative current flow in the same direction out the secondary coil electrode.


This is false, because current in this particular AC system reverses direction--- as has been explained to you over and over and as is stated mathematically by Faraday's Law of Induction. Look at the sign of d(B)/dt when the B field rises and then falls! Conventional current always flows from the more positive pole of the source to the more negative pole. In your strawman Ruhmkorff (not Ruhmkopff) coil it is once again easy to prove you wrong with elementary electrical components and measuring instruments.

-E=d(B)dt -- look up the meaning of d(anything)/dt in your favorite calculus textbook, and pay attention to the sign of that differential and how it manifests on a graph of "anything" vs. time.

And you may wish to study this image from the Wiki article on your Ruhmkorff coil. Note the polarities of voltage and directions of current.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/Induction_coil_waveforms.svg/200px-Induction_coil_waveforms.svg.png
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 11, 2017, 03:29:03 AM
T. K.                              Battery is source when switch is on - coil becomes the source when switch is off

That is right. Can you explain that to Synchro? Note that in your nice picture the (conventional) current continues to flow in the coil, through it and out of the BOTTOM of the coil when switched off, just as it does when the switch is on. Same direction, no reversal.

This is exactly what I demonstrate in my two videos with their associated schematics.

The schematic below, shown in my coil current direction video (1) was drawn on 30 March.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 03:34:24 AM
@Tinselkoala,


I challenged you to define a "Negative Micro-Henry" not deliver a dissertation on the Ruhmkopf coil.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 11, 2017, 03:36:36 AM
Allen
Please pick one and post it here for replication ?

and what does "too soon" mean ?[your answer for where I could find this scrapyard magnet in Jersey ?

I have plenty of friends who worked on these machines ?

I've done a little research on scrapyard magnets since we last talked.
Just google "Are scrapyard magnets AC or DC?" without the quotes, and you will find a wealth of information from makers of these magnets.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 11, 2017, 03:38:24 AM
@Tinselkoala,


I challenged yo to define a "Negative Micro-Henry" not deliver a dissertation on the Ruhmkopf coil.

Are you sure you don't mean DUMMKOPF coil? You can't even get the name of the coil right. Yo.

And note that you have YET ANOTHER refutation of your crazy current direction claim staring you right in the face. Yo.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 03:41:18 AM
Are you sure you don't mean DUMMKOPF coil? You can't even get the name of the coil right. Yo.

And note that you have YET ANOTHER refutation of your crazy current direction claim staring you right in the face. Yo.

@Tinselkoala,

You're over your head in deep shit right now and you know it.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 11, 2017, 03:45:54 AM
@Tinselkoala,

You're over your head in deep shit right now and you know it.

Wrong again!

(If you are really 70 years old, why do you persist in acting like a nine-year-old?)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 04:19:31 AM
@Tinselkoala,


Admit you can't define "Negative Micro-Henry" and I'll start teaching you. In the mean time, knock off the cheap wisecracks.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Searcher1o1 on April 11, 2017, 04:42:31 AM
Tell me what happens in this setup
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 11, 2017, 04:52:39 AM
@Tinselkoala,


Admit you can't define "Negative Micro-Henry" and I'll start teaching you. In the mean time, knock off the cheap wisecracks.

https://lmgtfy.com/

Feel free to cite any valid reference you like. But you couldn't teach a fish to swim.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 11, 2017, 04:53:26 AM
Tell me what happens in this setup

Is that you again, Chris?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Searcher1o1 on April 11, 2017, 05:11:18 AM
The coils are not bucking but aiding , wound on an air cored toroid.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 11, 2017, 05:28:44 AM
The coils are not bucking but aiding , wound on an air cored toroid.
Then isn't the S end of one coil connected to the N end of the other?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: gyulasun on April 11, 2017, 11:18:47 AM

...
Battery is source when switch is on - coil becomes the source when switch is off.
...

That is okay but there is still a problem in your drawing, see it below.

Gyula
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 11, 2017, 01:03:18 PM
T. K.                              Battery is source when switch is on - coil becomes the source when switch is off

I would say no.
The collapsing magnetic field becomes the source ,when switch becomes open.
The coil converts this collapsing/changing magnetic field into current flow-much like an ICE converts gasoline into rotational torque.
The changing magnetic field is the fuel.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 11, 2017, 01:04:06 PM
Is that you again, Chris?

Lol  ;)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 11, 2017, 01:10:50 PM
Negative current

Current flowing through a wire in both directions at the same time

Negative micro Heneries

OU pancake coils

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnzHtm1jhL4
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 11, 2017, 01:18:18 PM
I posted this a while back but I am going to post it again for the benefit (maybe) of the people that don't seem to like the idea of peer review.

I couple of years ago I put together a circuit that was showing more power out than in.  I was excited.  I shared it on a forum and Luc asked if he could replicate it.  I knew his reputation and of course said yes.  When he got it completed he did not get the same results I did.  We went over together the circuit and his was exactly like mine.  He then suggested I recheck my meters.  When I did I found that the trusty meter I had been using for years was actually reading the input power much lower than it really was.  It had always been very accurate before so something had happened to it.  I thanked Luc for helping me and apologized for getting everyone excited over another circuit that didn't pan out.  That is what peer review is about.  We check each other and verify or not the results someone claims.
Carroll

Hi Carroll,

I'm full agree with your own example,

His important we admit things like happened to you , because sometimes meters could have defective problems or even measure incorrectly under some circumstances ,  and is a good procedure our work be validate by external independent people , with the right tools and other technical know how, and even that could be not enough because some manifestations could be not measurable because their nature , make interested people need to find other valid ways of measurement, and study some of that manifestations to reach a result .

Ever time i see my systems validate by independent persons in industry  , i get happy even when results could be not what i will like hear , and that is the spirit , search all time by true . is not that almost people search ?

Myself believe in that 500% , the only thing that i disagree, is  that  someone be "judged" only by assumptions  and that is clearly not a good way to deal with things.

We could find several examples in internet youtube of some announced "free energy" devices in last years and our first reaction will be say is a bullshit , because we could clearly see that devices not fit in a reasonable meaning of our present knowledge , but we knows , most of this videos was made only to catch attentions to earn some money  , damaging the reputation of true researchers in this area , and that to me seems not reasonable , being me , believer in this field of alternative research . 

We should be very carefull, when we are make "judges" of something without any real data . I Really believe that some people on that forum have really high technical knowledge like you,  but that could be sometimes a two sides knife if their assume that is nothing to be understood.

Myself in some my work presentations in "real life"  , already saw more than one time former Eng people from independent  company's have similar behavior,  only attack me based in their own already acquire knowledge, and even without i show anything ,  and after we go to practical tests and even with their own measurements and tests, they say  that some of things that they see, are not reasonable under their knowledge  and should not possible to happen in "real world" , and they are judge by direct observation not by videos, and with their own measures, their own tools .

In that way seems to me not reasonable that most of times people in this forum with new ideas, be judge by others without any know particular data , and only based in assumptions, strangle their own evolution sometimes .

I'm not referring to myself in particularly, because i not share my work to be evaluated in this forum in opensource  , but i'm talk about several others researchers that work in open source that sometimes see their effort and dedication not respected when they are judge in that way .

We should think that we are all learning every minute that we breath , and we should not impose something like indisputable because we have several laws that actually need to be reformulated not to delete the work done so far, but improve the same, otherwise the humankind is not growing but dying.


Cheers

Nelson Rocha
 





Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 11, 2017, 01:29:57 PM
Negative current

Current flowing through a wire in both directions at the same time

Negative micro Heneries

OU pancake coils

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnzHtm1jhL4

This is the spirit of some ....
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 01:39:45 PM
https://lmgtfy.com/

Feel free to cite any valid reference you like. But you couldn't teach a fish to swim.

@Tinselkola,

You'll find the answer in comment #12 by me as Allen Burgess on evostars bifilar coil thread at the Energetic Forum site.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 01:41:11 PM
Negative current

Current flowing through a wire in both directions at the same time

Negative micro Heneries

OU pancake coils

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnzHtm1jhL4

@Tinman,

Overdose on dose Mr. Webster!

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 11, 2017, 02:22:16 PM
@Tinman,

Overdose on dose Mr. Webster!
Dear synchro

Before you try and show the impossible,how about you first show the simple--that being,current flowing in the opposite direction of an inductor/coil,when the source current is disconnected.

You have now been asked on a number of occasions to do this 1 simple thing,but instead of doing that,you now start on negative micro Henry's(what ever that means),negative current(another term plucked out of thin air)and current flowing in two opposite directions at the same time,in a single wire.

Forget about trying to walk before you run--how about trying a simple crawl first.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 11, 2017, 02:34:25 PM
@ Synchro and Zephir

As the two of you seem quite contempt to bad mouth those here that do know better,and have 1000's of hours on the bench,carrying out the very experiments you have put forth,and made wild claims about,and insist that they know not what they are talking about,i am formally asking the both of you to back up your claims with actual experimental data and results.

If you both continue to bad mouth those that !DO! know better than yourselves,then your comments will be removed.

The only posts i want to see from you both,is those which back up your claims,by way of replicable experiments that show results that back up your claims.


Hows that for some moderation Zephir,as you insisted that i do it.  ;)


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 03:17:51 PM
Dear synchro

Before you try and show the impossible,how about you first show the simple--that being,current flowing in the opposite direction of an inductor/coil,when the source current is disconnected.

You have now been asked on a number of occasions to do this 1 simple thing,but instead of doing that,you now start on negative micro Henry's(what ever that means),negative current(another term plucked out of thin air)and current flowing in two opposite directions at the same time,in a single wire.

Forget about trying to walk before you run--how about trying a simple crawl first.


Brad

@Tinman,

What's the minus sign for on the analog amp meter (On the left)?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 11, 2017, 03:28:59 PM
@Tinman,

What's the minus sign for on the analog amp meter (On the left)?

Show me an AC amp meter read a minus value.

If you have it set to DC amp's,and it reads a minus value,then you have the probes ass about.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 03:31:28 PM
@Tinman,

Please watch this video on "Electro-Magnetic Induction":


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HyORmBip-w
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 11, 2017, 03:44:27 PM
@Tinman,

Please watch this video on "Electro-Magnetic Induction":


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HyORmBip-w

And that very video just showed you that current reverses direction,and dose not become some form of !negative! current.

What you are saying is this-when a car drives forward,it has positive motion,and when it drives backwards(reverses),it has negative motion. What in gods name is negative motion?.

Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Searcher1o1 on April 11, 2017, 03:48:08 PM
That is okay but there is still a problem in your drawing, see it below.

Gyula
I find it strange the polarity changes but the n s polarity doesn't, i understand the current direction never changes.
I will do some testing.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 04:29:47 PM
And that very video just showed you that current reverses direction,and dose not become some form of !negative! current.

What you are saying is this-when a car drives forward,it has positive motion,and when it drives backwards(reverses),it has negative motion. What in gods name is negative motion?.

Brad

@Tinman,

Re-watch the video.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 11, 2017, 04:33:53 PM
Synchro
.....polarity...negative... positive... right side up ...upside down...sideways...?
AC.. DC... Nosee..?

a better example would be to show a gain mechanism in any Direction ?

if you have Negative energy supplying gain ?
please post the circuit so I can replicate it ?

which video shows negative anomalous gain ??

please repost it ?

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 04:35:26 PM
Synchro
.....polarity...negative... positive... right side up ...upside down...sideways...?
AC.. DC... Nosee..?

a better example would be to show a gain mechanism in any Direction ?

@ramset,

Re-watch the video.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 04:45:58 PM
What we're dealing with here folks, is three people who never understood what alternating current is: Citfa, Tinman and ramset.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: pomodoro on April 11, 2017, 05:04:20 PM
Its a freaking Circus. Love it.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 11, 2017, 05:12:40 PM
Synchro
You are well aware you are not explaining your position
nor are you teaching the ignorant ?

yes I confess  I have no clue whatsoever what you are teaching here ?
that its light out when the sun is shining ? or dark at night ??

maybe I am a poor student ,you seem to revel in my ignorance ?

Please enlighten me/
with one example  which I can build ?

or keep this great anomaly a secret and keep taking peoples comments out of context
[since you refuse to offer a context]

have a good old time ,do you also pull the legs off of spiders in your spare time ?

the good news is my crystal ball is coming back from repair...

Pomodoro
yes the members love a flame war...
but not the members who experiment here...


 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 05:34:42 PM
@ramset,

Here's a cool project for an electric buzzer. Joseph Henry, of the unit of inductance (Henry), patented this spark gap generator, and it can be turned into a wireless telegraph with the simple addition of a contact key. It generates AC current:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3fvpIan5x4
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 11, 2017, 06:13:00 PM
Synchro
Not all of us have endless hours to torture the ignorant ...
or gloat in some self enlightened grandiose moment !!

so you are saying this negative gain mechanism [extra energy inters the system thru
the negative resistance ?
am I even saying that right ??

please clarify if not ...

this can be found in this Vid you posted after my question on a negative gain mechanism [excess energy /anomaly / whatsit..?
is this what you call negative resistance ??

this is a gain mechanism ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3fvpIan5x4

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 11, 2017, 06:53:09 PM
Allen
if you are done speaking in tongues and sentence hatchet quotations
maybe you should just give this man his thread back?

this
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/20714-magnetic-field-bifilar-pancake-coil-2.html

is a much more interesting path than your half measures....
a solid state spinning event happening over pancake coils ..

maybe you should start your own Scrapyard magnet secrets thread ?
you could probably milk it for a few years...

evostars started on a much more interesting thesis with  pancake coils [solid state]
ala TPU perhaps

let him have his thread back
while he has told you he finds your work interesting
its not his path...
please respect his request here...many are intrigued by evostars work

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Grumage on April 11, 2017, 07:34:26 PM
Dear All.

Let's put a bit of perspective back....

This is the scale of the Pancake coil !!

Cheers Graham.

Dear evostars.

Is that one of R M Cybernetics PWM's you're using ?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 11, 2017, 08:42:04 PM
Grum, thanks for posting that nice large famous photo of St. Nick sitting next to his big flat coil.

The scale of the photo makes it easy to trace the turns outward from the center.

So is it bifilar, or not?    8)

For those with weak eyes, here's a blowup of the center of the coil. Bifilar.... or not?
 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Grumage on April 11, 2017, 09:00:05 PM
Grum, thanks for posting that nice large famous photo of St. Nick sitting next to his big flat coil.

The scale of the photo makes it easy to trace the turns outward from the center.

So is it bifilar, or not?    8)

Dear TinselKoala.

You're most welcome.

Now, is that a hint that it needs re sizing ?   ;)

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 11, 2017, 09:05:42 PM
If only someone could come up with a practical real-world application for a series bifilar pancake coil.  It appears that they can't.  In my opinion this is all just a bunch of fuss over a Tesla patent that was never even used in anything.  I will remind you that the wording of the patent clearly states that the coil is supposed to be used for power factor correction because of the capacitance associated with the coil.  Power factor correction is real, but nobody is using series bifilar pancake coils to do it, they use capacitors.

It's just like a Bedini motor, the only practical application for it would be to power it with a wall wart, and use the motor to charge a battery.  There is no point in powering it with a battery.  And using a 555 timer with a transistor and a coil will give you a simple inductive-pulse battery charger that will outperform any Bedini motor.

I am just posing the uncomfortable issues to make you think.  If you just want to play with some coils on your bench then fine, play with a series bifilar pancake coil or a Bedini motor, just don't expect anything amazing to happen.

And of course there is a real-world analysis that could be done that I seriously doubt anybody is going to touch.  That being compare a series bifilar pancake coil with a plain ordinary cylindrical solenoid coil.  No fancy bifilar anything, just an ordinary solenoid coil.  The ordinary solenoid coil will outperform the series bifilar pancake coil in just about any application that you can think of.

The only place I am aware of where they use pancake coils, and I mean regular pancake coils and not bifilar pancake coils, is in kitchen ranges with induction cooktops.  There is no "magic" here at all, they use a flat pancake coil because its geometry is the shape of a flat pancake, and that's what they need.

<<< Induction cooking heats a cooking vessel by magnetic induction, instead of by thermal conduction from a flame, or an electrical heating element. Because inductive heating directly heats the vessel, very rapid increases in temperature can be achieved.

In an induction cooker, a coil of copper wire is placed under the cooking pot and an alternating electric current is passed through it. The resulting oscillating magnetic field induces a magnetic flux which repeatedly magnetises the pot, treating it like the lossy magnetic core of a transformer. This produces large eddy currents in the pot, which because of the resistance of the pot, heats it.

For nearly all models of induction cooktops, a cooking vessel must be made of, or contain, a ferromagnetic metal such as cast iron or some stainless steels. However, copper, glass, non magnetic stainless steels, and aluminum vessels can be used if placed on a ferromagnetic disk which functions as a conventional hotplate.  >>>
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Grumage on April 11, 2017, 09:26:55 PM
Dear MileHigh.

Whilst I agree with your sentiments, there must have been " some " reason for Tesla to have built a coil of that size. Does anyone know ?

In answer to TinselKoala, I have drawn two Yellow lines, the coil seems to end in the centre with a pair.

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 11, 2017, 09:47:17 PM
Dear evostars.

Is that one of R M Cybernetics PWM's you're using ?
yes,  it is indeed. works great.

I think the reason tesla made his coils so big,  is because he used high voltage.  the distance between the windings prevents sparks. 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 11, 2017, 09:48:35 PM
Grum, thank you for muddying the waters again. Perhaps you would take another look,
this time with your glasses on.

Start anywhere, follow the wire around the coil and see where you end up.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Grumage on April 11, 2017, 09:57:24 PM
Grum, thank you for muddying the waters again. Perhaps you would take another look,
this time with your glasses on.

Start anywhere, follow the wire around the coil and see where you end up.

Perhaps I should have taken these off ?   8)

You're quite correct, the photo does get a little blurry just before my yellow line.

Cheers from a rather embarrassed Grum.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 11, 2017, 10:05:31 PM
Dear MileHigh.

Whilst I agree with your sentiments, there must have been " some " reason for Tesla to have built a coil of that size. Does anyone know ?

Cheers Graham.

I am no expert on Tesla's life but from what I can remember from watching a few documentaries, at certain points in his life he lost his benefactors or his employers and he fell on hard times.  He needed to generate renewed interest in what he was doing to make himself more marketable.  So I think that's the main reason for things like the various staged photographs.  There is the famous time exposure picture with all of the big electric arcs for example.  So that big pancake coil may have been used for experimenting initially and then afterwards as a prop for some publicity photographs.

Is there any writing by Tesla about that big pancake coil?  To go full circle, it's just a coil.

I think the greatest thing he did was the Niagara Falls power dam project and all the associated technology and equipment to bring AC mains power from the dam all the way to the consumer.  It's not really rocket science but somebody had to do it first and that man was Tesla.  It's comparable to the invention of the steam engine.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: shylo on April 11, 2017, 10:16:40 PM
Well I don't think there is anybody trying to mis-inform , I do have a question.
Take a single coil, pass a single magnet over the coil, a flow is created in one direction,upon approach of the magnet, but as soon as the approaching magnet begins to induce that flow, an opposite flow begins, right?
But this reverse flow is not as strong as the flow that is being induced,so it can't be used to create an inducing  flow of the same strength, right?
But what I'm trying to do is take 2 of the reverse fields add them together so they are stronger than the initial.
You need to use more than just one machine to be able to do this,but it is still a catch 22 because you use 2 to make one.
I should say the coils are loaded at all times.
artv
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 11, 2017, 10:36:36 PM
I made a new topic describing some of my experiments.
http://overunity.com/17222/some-bifilar-coil-experiments/msg503913/#msg503913
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 11, 2017, 10:38:07 PM
MH: Right you are, as often. Another thing that is not often appreciated by the modern experimenter is that in Tesla's day, back at the beginning of radio, frequencies of 1MHz or more were practically unknown. You can see Tesla's words in many places where he speaks rather in awe of "one million, or millions, of pulsations per second!" Yet today these frequencies of 1-10 MHz are supplied by even the cheapest hobbyist function generators without much difficulty. Hand in hand with frequency is the rise and fall time of "pulsations". Tesla would have been in hog heaven if he could have attained rise/fall times in the single-digit nanosecond range, and he spent lots of his creative juice on spark gap designs specifically to minimize rise/fall times. Yet today we play around with single-digit rise/fall times even on the amateur's bench.

Grum: No problemo, mi amigo! It's hard to decontstruct stuff from ancient photos that were likely published first in half-tone dots in some newspaper of the time.
I'm waiting for someone to argue that there are two wires bundled together in that thick tarred-cotton-wrap insulation.  Could be, but I don't think so, since there is no evidence of the "crossover" connection that has to be there for a TBF winding.  Does anyone  know the date of that photo? Perhaps the coil was made before the invention in #512340 was filed. Why a big coil in the vertical plane? Maybe it was upended as a photo-op. Just speculating.

Shylo: Not current, but EMF, that is, voltage.
-E=d(B)/dt .... Faraday's Law of induction and Lenz's Law (the minus sign)... meditate upon that until you can grok the fullness of it.    ;)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 11, 2017, 10:43:27 PM
Well I don't think there is anybody trying to mis-inform , I do have a question.
Take a single coil, pass a single magnet over the coil, a flow is created in one direction,upon approach of the magnet, but as soon as the approaching magnet begins to induce that flow, an opposite flow begins, right?
But this reverse flow is not as strong as the flow that is being induced,so it can't be used to create an inducing  flow of the same strength, right?
(snip)
artv

Well, the "reverse flow" is weaker because of inevitable losses. Consider the case of the superconductor, where there are no resistive losses. The opposing flow induces an opposing field that is equal to the field of the approaching magnet, and so results in suspension, where the magnet floats over the superconductor, and in fact is "pinned" there even if the setup is inverted so it tries to fall away, but can't. 
But even without superconductors, and with losses, the opposing field induced by the eddy currents can cause major "slowdowns". I'm sure you know the simple demonstration of dropping a magnet through a copper pipe, or sliding a magnet along a copper or even aluminum plate.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 11, 2017, 10:44:36 PM
A great one from from across the Great Divide:

<<< The Tesla serial bifilar pancake coil was suppressed because it served as an EMP directed energy weapon, with top secret classification by the U.S. War Department. >>>

I will give you a real example of something that I am pretty sure was top secret during World War II, the frequency spectrum analyzer.  If you had a frequency spectrum analyzer it would help you discern the sounds emanating from ships or planes, as an example.  The sooner you could identify the enemy's hardware by its frequency spectrum signature, the more time you would have to take appropriate countermeasures.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 11, 2017, 10:49:28 PM
(snip)

I think the greatest thing he did was the Niagara Falls power dam project and all the associated technology and equipment to bring AC mains power from the dam all the way to the consumer.  It's not really rocket science but somebody had to do it first and that man was Tesla.  It's comparable to the invention of the steam engine.

MileHigh

Don't forget about the Polyphase AC motor invention.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 11:09:17 PM
Allen
if you are done speaking in tongues and sentence hatchet quotations
maybe you should just give this man his thread back?

this
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/20714-magnetic-field-bifilar-pancake-coil-2.html

is a much more interesting path than your half measures....
a solid state spinning event happening over pancake coils ..

maybe you should start your own Scrapyard magnet secrets thread ?
you could probably milk it for a few years...

evostars started on a much more interesting thesis with  pancake coils [solid state]
ala TPU perhaps

let him have his thread back
while he has told you he finds your work interesting
its not his path...
please respect his request here...many are intrigued by evostars work

@ramset,

Maybe you should send some complaint mail to Aaron.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 11, 2017, 11:29:13 PM
here is evostars new thread for his builds
http://overunity.com/17222/some-bifilar-coil-experiments/msg503934/#new
and his energetic thread
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/20714-magnetic-field-bifilar-pancake-coil-2.html

Allen
I hope this off topic reply gets removed with your off topic comment
But I see that tossing a line over to quotes from the other forum [MH] always causes these types of issues [tinder for a flame up.

I am glad evostars started another thread for his work ,perhaps he can get some feedback from people who are building and experimenting there ?

and Allen
I finally understand how it could take seven years to get a straight experiment from you on a claim 
I don't think its possible ....ever....?

for clarity I have never exchanged an email or a message with Aaron nor have I asked for you to be moderated here or even discussed you.[why would I ? we have never interacted ..
maybe one unanswered Question to you 5 -6 years ago ??

let experiments rule the day ,and hearsay stay in the wind ...not to be taken as fact
until proven otherwise.

Brutal honestly ,and no wooden Nickels.

I guess you figured out when Grum signs off for the night [moderator] and TinMan and magluvin have fulltime jobs ....

no I suppose you don't care..or respect much here anyway.

you just like fighting !!
seven years you say {with Tinsel and others] ??
never an experiment to define your claims in real time ?

I bet you could drag that out for ever...

Allen
some here who love this place and really try to do experiments actually like the  TOS agreement .
here >>>http://overunity.com/register/#.WO1N8Ll1roY
I am told it will be the guide for posting at this forum ?
and moderation will be by choice [your choice if you break the rules].

do you have a cause you feel passionate about an experiment you simply must share ?

please do



 
 



Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 12, 2017, 12:53:06 AM
here is evostars new thread for his builds
http://overunity.com/17222/some-bifilar-coil-experiments/msg503934/#new
and his energetic thread
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/20714-magnetic-field-bifilar-pancake-coil-2.html

Allen
I hope this off topic reply gets removed with your off topic comment
But I see that tossing a line over to quotes from the other forum [MH] always causes these types of issues [tinder for a flame up.

I am glad evostars started another thread for his work ,perhaps he can get some feedback from people who are building and experimenting there ?

and Allen
I finally understand how it could take seven years to get a straight experiment from you on a claim 
I don't think its possible ....ever....?

for clarity I have never exchanged an email or a message with Aaron nor have I asked for you to be moderated here or even discussed you.[why would I ? we have never interacted ..
maybe one unanswered Question to you 5 -6 years ago ??

let experiments rule the day ,and hearsay stay in the wind ...not to be taken as fact
until proven otherwise.

Brutal honestly ,and no wooden Nickels.

I guess you figured out when Grum signs off for the night [moderator] and TinMan and magluvin have fulltime jobs ....

no I suppose you don't care..or respect much here anyway.

you just like fighting !!
seven years you say {with Tinsel and others] ??
never an experiment to define your claims in real time ?

I bet you could drag that out for ever...

Allen
some here who love this place and really try to do experiments actually like the  TOS agreement .
here >>>http://overunity.com/register/#.WO1N8Ll1roY
I am told it will be the guide for posting at this forum ?
and moderation will be by choice [your choice if you break the rules].

do you have a cause you feel passionate about an experiment you simply must share ?

please do

@ramset,

Stay off my back.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 12, 2017, 11:05:11 AM
What we're dealing with here folks, is three people who never understood what alternating current is: Citfa, Tinman and ramset.

Really

Definition on googles first page at top
Quote: an electric current that reverses its direction many times a second at regular intervals, typically used in power supplies.

Quote wikipedia :Alternating current (AC), is an electric current which periodically reverses direction,

Quote sparkfun.com : Both AC and DC describe types of current flow in a circuit. In direct current (DC), the electric charge (current) only flows in one direction. Electric charge in alternating current (AC), on the other hand, changes direction periodically.

The list go's on.
So yes-some one has some learning to do !synchro!

Maybe we should change your name to !crash box!,as something is not meshing correctly there.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 12, 2017, 11:14:20 AM



For nearly all models of induction cooktops, a cooking vessel must be made of, or contain, a ferromagnetic metal such as cast iron or some stainless steels. However, copper, glass, non magnetic stainless steels, and aluminum vessels can be used if placed on a ferromagnetic disk which functions as a conventional hotplate.  >>>

Are you sure about that MH  :o
Are you saying that eddy currents will not create heat in the highlighted metals?
All will heat,when held near a spinning rotor full of alternating permanent magnets.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 12, 2017, 11:23:45 AM
Consider the case of the superconductor, where there are no resistive losses. The opposing flow induces an opposing field that is equal to the field of the approaching magnet, and so results in suspension, where the magnet floats over the superconductor, and in fact is "pinned" there even if the setup is inverted so it tries to fall away, but can't. 


Interesting  :D

So-what would happen if an ideal voltage was dropped across an ideal coil,that also had no resistive losses  ;D


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 12, 2017, 12:04:13 PM
Are you sure about that MH  :o
Are you saying that eddy currents will not create heat in the highlighted metals?
All will heat,when held near a spinning rotor full of alternating permanent magnets.


Brad

Hi Brad,

I don't know if MileHigh is slightly confused on that or if he just worded it wrong.  But the induction cooker won't work with those metals only because it has a sensor that detects ferrous metals and will not turn on the coil until there is a ferrous metal near the coil.  When several of us were playing with them a few years ago we had to put some ferrous metal near the coil or bypass the sensing circuit in order to turn on the coil.

Have a good day or should I say night in your case.
Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 12, 2017, 12:08:35 PM
Are you sure about that MH  :o
Are you saying that eddy currents will not create heat in the highlighted metals?
All will heat,when held near a spinning rotor full of alternating permanent magnets.


Brad

You can actually get non-ferrous metals to levitate above an AC electromagnet, so maybe that's the reason the iron plate is used with those metals. You don't want your morning eggs and bacon flying around the kitchen in your aluminum pan!

(just kidding, the levitation effect is probably not strong enough in the ordinary induction hob, but I have seen fancy induction cooktops advertised that are supposed to levitate the aluminum pans while cooking in them too...)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 12, 2017, 01:00:23 PM
Hi Brad,

I don't know if MileHigh is slightly confused on that or if he just worded it wrong.  But the induction cooker won't work with those metals only because it has a sensor that detects ferrous metals and will not turn on the coil until there is a ferrous metal near the coil.  When several of us were playing with them a few years ago we had to put some ferrous metal near the coil or bypass the sensing circuit in order to turn on the coil.

Have a good day or should I say night in your case.
Carroll

I too went out and bought an induction cooker,when Naudin was fooling around with them-the so called OU generator.

I can boil water in a stainless steel pot,that a powerful neo magnet will not stick to,and i can also boil water in my copper camping kettle on top of the induction cooker.
Ali pots work just as well.
So there is the three materials MH listed as !will not work! on an induction cook top,but they all work just fine on mine.

I also had no trouble firing up the copper pancake coil during my experiments.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 12, 2017, 01:15:55 PM
Soooo, apparently not all induction cookers are the same.  Interesting.

Thanks for the new info Brad.

Take care,
Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 12, 2017, 01:26:22 PM
Negative current moving backwards is positive current. A negative Henry is the equivalent of one Tesla of magnetic strength. Both have positive values.

The spark gap collapse is infinite, not the spark. The collapsing magnetic field generates a magnet wave that instantly reaches the most distant parts of the Universe in the Macro space and the infinite reaches of the Quantum-sphere. Tesla invented radio, and his saprk gap generator could send a signal that magnetized metal coherer filings at a distance as Marconi discovered. Tesla believed Gravity and Magnetism were twins like Maxwell electricity and light.

Jerry Bayles evolved a "Unified" field theory with gravity as a cosmological constant rather then light as Einstien with his "Special" theory. The gravity wave is immediate and instantaneous, taking no time to travel at all.

The "Black Hole" at the Galaxy's center has no space but it's huge mass is spinning faster then the speed of light. The gravity spins outward spirally like a nautilus shell describing a proportion known as PHI (1.618).  The mass of the "Spiral Galaxy" and the spatial positions of the inner planets of the solar system sit on the spiral loops. Electron shells follow suit.

I taught G.E.D. to kids with no former schooling and got mutilated here for a jug comparison to a capacitor discharge. Shameless insults were directed at me which would have resulted in a physical beating if made to my face. I demand mutual respect.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 12, 2017, 02:01:11 PM
Threatening physical violence is a wonderful way to get respect if you are a nine year old.  You can't demand respect.  You have to earn it.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 12, 2017, 02:08:09 PM
Threatening physical violence is a wonderful way to get respect if you are a nine year old.  You can't demand respect.  You have to earn it.

Comment removed.




Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 12, 2017, 02:37:18 PM
Remove his comment too!

Tineslekoala, Verpies, Milehigh and these other psychoskeptics can't understand what Jerry's doing here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jEhLrIMlpk
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 12, 2017, 02:38:55 PM
Threatening physical violence is a wonderful way to get respect if you are a nine year old.  You can't demand respect.  You have to earn it.

Citfa,

You cover your ignorance with ridicule.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 12, 2017, 02:54:17 PM
Soooo, apparently not all induction cookers are the same.  Interesting.

Thanks for the new info Brad.

Take care,
Carroll
No problem.

I remember what it was called back then-those experiments.
It was the GENGENE projects.

Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 12, 2017, 02:55:35 PM
Remove his comment too!

Tineslekoala, Verpies, Milehigh and these other psychoskeptics can't understand what Jerry's doing here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jEhLrIMlpk

Be nice synchro.

How are those experiments coming along-that are to back up your claims?.

Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 12, 2017, 03:00:41 PM
Be nice synchro.

How are those experiments coming along-that are to back up your claims?.

Brad

@Tinmaqn,

You call insulting someone of my advanced knowledge a 9 year old nice? I'm warning you, if you delete one more of my comments, I will initiate a new thread under a category where you have zero moderation authority.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 12, 2017, 03:21:59 PM
I made a video about the bifilar coil experiment producing 950Vdc
https://youtu.be/KbtK9jrk_JI (https://youtu.be/KbtK9jrk_JI)
Why is the distanced south reversed coil, having a much lower resonant frequency then when its normally on top.
Why do the 180 degree out of phase signals, add up?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 12, 2017, 03:44:21 PM
@Tinman,

I dosed it anyway. See you fools over there.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 12, 2017, 07:00:41 PM
I too went out and bought an induction cooker,when Naudin was fooling around with them-the so called OU generator.

I can boil water in a stainless steel pot,that a powerful neo magnet will not stick to,and i can also boil water in my copper camping kettle on top of the induction cooker.
Ali pots work just as well.
So there is the three materials MH listed as !will not work! on an induction cook top,but they all work just fine on mine.

I also had no trouble firing up the copper pancake coil during my experiments.

Brad

Well I am going to assume that the text that I quoted from Wikipedia was entered by someone that paraphrased the original text from a manual for an induction cooktop.  I am also going to guess that the reason the manufacturer states that is because the heating efficiency of the induction cooktop drops dramatically when using an aluminum pot, as an example.  To meet their Energy Star requirements they need to discourage consumers from using the induction cooktop the "wrong" way.  As Carroll stated, apparently some induction cooktops will not switch on if there is nothing ferromagnetic placed on them, presumably for the same reasons.

If you want to correct errors, I suggest you go to your post #579 and fix that.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 12, 2017, 10:35:44 PM
Calm down, you are both right and both wrong. The easiest way to make sure someone doesn't use a _ceramic_ utensil on an induction hob is by incorporating the magnetic detector scheme. These things are made to the lowest pricepoint they can get. And they probably put out enough power to melt a flimsy aluminum utensil like a coffee percolator pot, if you let it boil dry. Hence the iron plate for nonferrous utensils (which sometimes costs as much as the hob itself, I've checked!)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: maxc on April 12, 2017, 10:37:04 PM
I made a video about the bifilar coil experiment producing 950Vdc
https://youtu.be/KbtK9jrk_JI (https://youtu.be/KbtK9jrk_JI)
Why is the distanced south reversed coil, having a much lower resonant frequency then when its normally on top.
Why do the 180 degree out of phase signals, add up?
  You need to measure the input power.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 12, 2017, 10:45:05 PM
Negative current moving backwards is positive current. A negative Henry is the equivalent of one Tesla of magnetic strength. Both have positive values.

The spark gap collapse is infinite, not the spark. The collapsing magnetic field generates a magnet wave that instantly reaches the most distant parts of the Universe in the Macro space and the infinite reaches of the Quantum-sphere. Tesla invented radio, and his saprk gap generator could send a signal that magnetized metal coherer filings at a distance as Marconi discovered. Tesla believed Gravity and Magnetism were twins like Maxwell electricity and light.

Jerry Bayles evolved a "Unified" field theory with gravity as a cosmological constant rather then light as Einstien with his "Special" theory. The gravity wave is immediate and instantaneous, taking no time to travel at all.

The "Black Hole" at the Galaxy's center has no space but it's huge mass is spinning faster then the speed of light. The gravity spins outward spirally like a nautilus shell describing a proportion known as PHI (1.618).  The mass of the "Spiral Galaxy" and the spatial positions of the inner planets of the solar system sit on the spiral loops. Electron shells follow suit.

I taught G.E.D. to kids with no former schooling and got mutilated here for a jug comparison to a capacitor discharge. Shameless insults were directed at me which would have resulted in a physical beating if made to my face. I demand mutual respect.

You are truly hilarious. You are once again making false claims and claims without any empirical support. As far as the "shameless insults" are concerned: Look back in this thread and see just who emitted the "shameless insults". 

You don't even realize that the Henry and the Tesla have different units, so cannot possibly be "equivalent" whether one is "negative" or not. You have no idea about the speed of "spark gap collapse" and anyone with the right equipment can prove you wrong..."infinitely".
Quote
Tesla invented radio, and his saprk (sic) gap generator could send a signal that magnetized metal coherer filings at a distance as Marconi discovered.
That is the only true statement in your whole post.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 12, 2017, 11:43:06 PM
  You need to measure the input power.

My setup is far from ideal right now. The IGBT produces short sharp pulses, but, It does so by basically shorting out the power supply over the coil. and this it does 50% of the frequency. I really need to fix this, before I can make a proper measurement. The Igbt should open and close very shortly. Another challenge to overcome.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 13, 2017, 01:07:54 PM
@Tinmaqn,

You call insulting someone of my advanced knowledge a 9 year old nice? I'm warning you, if you delete one more of my comments, I will initiate a new thread under a category where you have zero moderation authority.

Synchro

I am an Australian,and fear not your idle threats.

I will delete any of your post that are rude insults toward other members here.

Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 13, 2017, 01:13:09 PM
Well I am going to assume that the text that I quoted from Wikipedia was entered by someone that paraphrased the original text from a manual for an induction cooktop.  I am also going to guess that the reason the manufacturer states that is because the heating efficiency of the induction cooktop drops dramatically when using an aluminum pot, as an example.  To meet their Energy Star requirements they need to discourage consumers from using the induction cooktop the "wrong" way.  As Carroll stated, apparently some induction cooktops will not switch on if there is nothing ferromagnetic placed on them, presumably for the same reasons.

If you want to correct errors, I suggest you go to your post #579 and fix that.

MH

I was not having a dig at you.
I was just stating that my induction cook top, has no problem firing up with any of the metals you listed.

I checked my post 579,and see no error.
Could you point it out to me ?.

Cheers


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 13, 2017, 05:18:42 PM
Synchro

I am an Australian,and fear not your idle threats.

I will delete any of your post that are rude insults toward other members here.

Brad

@Tinman,

That's where they spell does upside down.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 13, 2017, 05:23:37 PM
You are truly hilarious. You are once again making false claims and claims without any empirical support. As far as the "shameless insults" are concerned: Look back in this thread and see just who emitted the "shameless insults". 

You don't even realize that the Henry and the Tesla have different units, so cannot possibly be "equivalent" whether one is "negative" or not. You have no idea about the speed of "spark gap collapse" and anyone with the right equipment can prove you wrong..."infinitely".  That is the only true statement in your whole post.

@Tinselkoala,

Admitting you don't know something, like the definition of "Negative Micro-Henry" and saking for an explanation is different from stating something that's dead wrong. Look Henry up at the Wikipedia site, and be man enough for once to admit you're wrong.

Here's what you said:

"The Henry and the Tesla have different units".

Lidmotor was right; You just don't understand inductance. You persistently cover your ignorance with chronic abuse. You should be ashamed of yourself.

A Henery equals a Tesla times Meters squared divded by Amperes.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 13, 2017, 05:43:33 PM
MH

I checked my post 579,and see no error.
Could you point it out to me ?.

Cheers

Brad

You posted a graphic and said that it's the magnetic field for a pancake coil but it's not, it's the magnetic field for a ring-shaped magnet.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 13, 2017, 05:46:08 PM
@Tinselkoala,

Admitting you don't know something, like the definition of "Negative Micro-Henry" and saking for an explanation is different from stating something that's dead wrong. Look Henry up at the Wikipedia site, and be man enough for once to admit you're wrong.

A Henry equals a Tesla times Meters squared divded by Amperes.

A Henry might be a Tesla times meters-squared divided by amperes, but a Henry is NOT a Tesla.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 13, 2017, 05:50:23 PM
A Henry might be a Tesla times meters-squared divided by amperes, but a Henry is NOT a Tesla.

@Tinselkoala,

Now you're trying to weasel out of it! Everyone can see you now for what you are.

"Henry (H). Henry is the unit of inductance. 1H = 1Wb / 1A ... One ampere-hour is equal to 3600 coulombs".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 13, 2017, 06:21:30 PM
The tesla (symbol T) is a unit of measurement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_of_measurement) of the strength of a magnetic field (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_field).

From here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_(unit)

The henry (symbol H) is the SI derived unit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI_derived_unit) of electrical inductance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductance).

From here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_(unit)

They are clearly NOT the same thing.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 13, 2017, 06:56:50 PM
@Tinselkoala,

Admitting you don't know something, like the definition of "Negative Micro-Henry" and saking for an explanation is different from stating something that's dead wrong. Look Henry up at the Wikipedia site, and be man enough for once to admit you're wrong.

Here's what you said:

"The Henry and the Tesla have different units".

Lidmotor was right; You just don't understand inductance. You persistently cover your ignorance with chronic abuse. You should be ashamed of yourself.

A Henery equals a Tesla times Meters squared divded by Amperes.

You are the abusive one, synchro, as many many of your own insulting posts demonstrate. And here you are again demonstrating your misrepresentation, strawman arguments, ignorance, and moving goalposts. And it is you that is dead wrong. Again.

Let me remind you what you actually said:

A negative Henry is the equivalent of one Tesla of magnetic strength. Both have positive values.

Now continue to twist and turn, weaseling and trying to deny what YOU YOURSELF SAID. You are worse than Donald Trump !! The Henry and the Tesla have DIFFERENT UNITS, as you have now found out. Your statement is equivalent to saying something like the "kilometer" and the "cubic mile per second per century" are "equivalent". Of course they are not.

And your spelling is atrocious.

(And I doubt very seriously that Lidmotor... who has built some of my circuits and some of whose circuits I have built... ever actually said that to you about me, since I know how you have misrepresented and misquoted and taken things out of context many times before. My understanding of inductance is far superior to YOURS, that is certain, as you continue to prove here yourself with almost every post you make.)

Quote
A Henery equals a Tesla times Meters squared divded by Amperes.
(sic)

And just how does that make the negative of one "equivalent" to the other? I'm almost out of ROFLs but you can have one anyway:
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 13, 2017, 07:04:48 PM
The tesla (symbol T) is a unit of measurement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_of_measurement) of the strength of a magnetic field (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_field).

From here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_(unit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_(unit))

The henry (symbol H) is the SI derived unit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI_derived_unit) of electrical inductance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductance).

From here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_(unit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_(unit))

They are clearly NOT the same thing.

Nor are they even remotely "equivalent", nor is the negative of one "equivalent" to the other.

Except in the deluded mind of someone who thinks he is proving some kind of point.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 13, 2017, 07:12:39 PM
Nor are they even remotely "equivalent", nor is the negative of one "equivalent" to the other.

Except in the deluded mind of someone who thinks he is proving some kind of point.

@Tinselkoala,

So you're quoting Citfa for authority now?

"A flux density of one Wb/m2 (one weber per square metre) is one tesla".

"Henry (H). Henry is the unit of inductance. 1H = 1Wb / 1A ... One ampere-hour is equal to 3600 coulombs".

Here's a question for you: How much magnetic strength will one ampere-hour of current generate in an inductor of one Henry of inductance? 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 13, 2017, 07:16:04 PM
And flux density has nothing to do with henries.  Blah, blah blah.

Give it up Allen.  Every time you post something you show more and more how little you actually know about electricity and electronics.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 13, 2017, 07:19:25 PM
And flux density has nothing to do with henries.  Blah, blah blah.

Give it up Allen.  Every time you post something you show more and more how little you actually know about electricity and electronics.

@Citfa,

Quote from Citfa:

"flux density has nothing to do with henries".

Answer the question I asked in my last comment.

Here's a hint:

A Tesla is a negative Henry with one ampere-hour of current.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 13, 2017, 07:25:11 PM
Allen,

I really don't understand what your problem is.  If I used your kind of logic I could say a pound is equal to a gallon.  Or an ohm is equal to a watt.  How about a banana is equal to a monkey?  Is that ok with your kind of logic?  You comparisons just don't make sense.  And beside that they have nothing to do with this thread.

I see you just posted another ridiculous comparison after I have already proven to you from the same source you quoted that a tesla and henry are not the same.

You are getting boring.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 13, 2017, 07:29:07 PM
Allen,

I really don't understand what your problem is.  If I used your kind of logic I could say a pound is equal to a gallon.  Or an ohm is equal to a watt.  How about a banana is equal to a monkey?  Is that ok with your kind of logic?  You comparisons just don't make sense.  And beside that they have nothing to do with this thread.

I see you just posted another ridiculous comparison after I have already proven to you from the same source you quoted that a tesla and henry are not the same.

You are getting boring.

@Citfa,

You are very, very confused. I wish you would take time to study Inductance and Alternating Current because you're hurting people who are here to learn something about electronics and magnetism more than you can ever know.

Start by returning to comment #708 above and try and work the equation.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 13, 2017, 07:35:57 PM
Allen I earned a very good living working on industrial level machines for over 30 years.  I have a very good understanding about electronics as I have proven time and time again by showing you where you are wrong.  The only one adding confusion is you with all you comparisons of things that aren't the same.  And when you lose on one you come up with another silly question or comparison.  As I said you are so predictable you are getting very boring.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 13, 2017, 08:11:57 PM
Allen I earned a very good living working on industrial level machines for over 30 years.  I have a very good understanding about electronics as I have proven time and time again by showing you where you are wrong.  The only one adding confusion is you with all you comparisons of things that aren't the same.  And when you lose on one you come up with another silly question or comparison.  As I said you are so predictable you are getting very boring.

@Citfa

How do we know you're telling the truth? Anyone can say anything, like I was a Naval aviator who kidded about leading the "Blue Angels". I think you're a liar. You can't understand basic laws of electronics and magnetism. Knock it off. The ruse is up. Everyone can see how little you really know. I'll tell you what's boring is trying to teach you simple basics you perpetually deny.

1.- Negative current is positive current flowing backwards. Basic law of A.C. current that reads negative on the amp meter.

2.- One Tesla of magnetic strength in an inductor of one Henry of Inductance with one ampere-hour of current flowing through it reads as one negative Henry on the inductance meter. The minus sign indicates the level of magnetic strength. The inductance meter in the negative value acts as a gauss meter.

 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 13, 2017, 08:40:37 PM
@Citfa and Tinselkola,

Here's what you quoted me as saying:

"Negative current moving backwards is positive current. A negative Henry is the equivalent of one Tesla of magnetic strength".

Just what is it you two fail to understand about that statement of mine at this point?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 13, 2017, 11:03:40 PM
Teslas are to Henries as Voltage is to Capacitance: T/H: V/C.

Quote from Tinselkoala:

"Now continue to twist and turn, weaseling and trying to deny what YOU YOURSELF SAID. You are worse than Donald Trump !! The Henry and the Tesla have DIFFERENT UNITS, as you have now found out. Your statement is equivalent to saying something like the "kilometer" and the "cubic mile per second per century" are "equivalent". Of course they are not"

If someone said Henries of Capacitance, or Farads of Inductance, they would be guilty of the mistake TK falsely accused me of above.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 13, 2017, 11:31:14 PM
More insulting and obnoxious abuse from a complete ignoramus named TK:

"Nor are they even remotely "equivalent", nor is the negative of one "equivalent" to the other. Except in the deluded mind of someone who thinks he is proving some kind of point".

Does this rigmarole have a familiar ring to it?

"And here you are again demonstrating your misrepresentation, strawman arguments, ignorance, and moving goalposts".

Another classic from Citfa:

"If I used your kind of logic I could say a pound is equal to a gallon".

The question is; Why don't the moderators scold these chronically abusive insulters and delete their vitriolic rubbish?
 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 14, 2017, 01:21:47 AM
You posted a graphic and said that it's the magnetic field for a pancake coil but it's not, it's the magnetic field for a ring-shaped magnet.

I said the magnetic field of a pancake coil,would be the same as that of a ring magnet-and it would be.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 14, 2017, 01:25:43 AM
@Tinselkoala,

Now you're trying to weasel out of it! Everyone can see you now for what you are.

"Henry (H). Henry is the unit of inductance. 1H = 1Wb / 1A ... One ampere-hour is equal to 3600 coulombs".

That was MHs quote-not TKs.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 14, 2017, 02:21:36 AM
I said the magnetic field of a pancake coil,would be the same as that of a ring magnet-and it would be.

Just work it out in your head and get it right.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 14, 2017, 04:51:59 AM
@Tinselkoala,

So you're quoting Citfa for authority now?


He is certainly a lot more of an authority than YOU claim to be.


Quote

"A flux density of one Wb/m2 (one weber per square metre) is one tesla".

"Henry (H). Henry is the unit of inductance. 1H = 1Wb / 1A ... One ampere-hour is equal to 3600 coulombs".

Here's a question for you: How much magnetic strength will one ampere-hour of current generate in an inductor of one Henry of inductance?


I've got some news for you, genius. The Ampere-hour is not a measure of CURRENT.
Figure it out: An Ampere is a Coulomb of charge per second. So the units of the Ampere-hour are (Coulombs/second) x 60 seconds per minute x 60 minutes per hour = 3600 Coulombs. The Ampere-Hour is a measure of CHARGE.


See the wiki if you don't believe me. Units are important! At least to people who actually understand them.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampere_hour (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampere_hour)

 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 14, 2017, 06:18:31 AM
What I wanted to try with a bifi pancake is put some maple syrup on it and eat it. ;D

In Teslas transmitter and receiver pat drawing, it shows what 'really' looks like each having a pancake coil 'with' a low number turn winding, 2 turns in the drawing as I remember, around the outer perimeter of the pancake winding, of which I believe the outer 2 turn winding is a primary in the transmitter and it is a secondary in the receiver. So if like the drawing, of which was depicted as such in comparison to many coils shown otherwise in his other works, the 2 turn outer winding seems like it was most certainly placed there so the 2 windings would have the best mutual induction, wouldnt ya think? ???

So maybe instead of just messing with a pancake coil to see what it does in comparison to others on its own, give the outer winding a whack and make it movable to see if it is on the same plain as the bifi if that gives best mutual induction, and try it both ways, like it were a transformer and see what ya get. Just wonder if it would be the same ole same ole just like a regular transformer, or maybe not. No core. maybe it is better than a cylindrical air core. maybe not.

But there must be a special purpose for a pancake coil, otherwise why take pics of yourself sitting in a chair in front of one. ;)

Mags
 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 14, 2017, 06:45:33 AM
And if the 2 turn coils position on the outer perimeter of the pancake is the best for mutual induction, then what does that say about the pancakes field in comparison to other coils or magnets?

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 14, 2017, 01:14:06 PM
Contrary to what the resident authorities continue to shove down the throats of those who will not do their due diligence, there is something special about the bifilar coil.

Right, it's the familiar story.  "There is 'something special' about the bifilar coil but I will not say what it is."  Isn't that the essence of what you are saying?

Please, go ahead and state exactly what is special about the bifilar coil and how you can apply that to accomplish something practical in the real world.  Just go ahead and say it.

Neither of these wonders have seen the light of day, it's up to us to rediscover them. 

And this is the same old self-flagellation pitch.  You are not worthy!   I am NOT going to tell you how it works.  It's a mystery that YOU must figure out for yourself.  Why should "we" share information with the likes of YOU? 

Sorry, but I think the sarcasm is justified because I have seen you and many others on this forum scold people for simply asking for the alleged information.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 14, 2017, 01:16:51 PM
@Mags: Sometimes the "best" mutual induction is not the "greatest" mutual induction. Rather loose coupling is required for better performance of certain (ahem) air core quarter-wave resonant transformer systems that take advantage of VRSWR.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 14, 2017, 01:26:59 PM
Note the very specific claims in this video by TheOldScientist about the _DC Resistance_  and the _Inductance_ of the single layer Tesla Bifilar solenoid coil he tests in comparison to the single layer monofilar coil with the same amount of wire. And note that he does not allow comments on this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNAZ6heorEc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNAZ6heorEc)

I'll have more to say about this, once people have watched and commented here about these specific measurements made by TOS.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 14, 2017, 01:28:59 PM

Please continue this argument by yourself.  I have no use for you, nor your opinions.

There is a difference between asking a question and expressing an opinion. Why don't you just answer the questions that have been asked?

I know why, and you do too.

MH asked,
Quote
exactly what is special about the bifilar coil and how you can apply that to accomplish something practical in the real world
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Grumage on April 14, 2017, 02:45:27 PM
Dear All.

I have attached a pdf file from 2011.

Now before you all start lining up with the " butcher knives " did anyone, anywhere try this?

Wouldn't it be an interesting project to prove practically?

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 14, 2017, 02:46:41 PM

He is certainly a lot more of an authority than YOU claim to be.



I've got some news for you, genius. The Ampere-hour is not a measure of CURRENT.
Figure it out: An Ampere is a Coulomb of charge per second. So the units of the Ampere-hour are (Coulombs/second) x 60 seconds per minute x 60 minutes per hour = 3600 Coulombs. The Ampere-Hour is a measure of CHARGE.


See the wiki if you don't believe me. Units are important! At least to people who actually understand them.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampere_hour (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampere_hour)

@Tinselkoala,

Now you're outsmarting everyone again as a big genius on some technicality when you stated repeatedly that the Tesla and Henry
were like apples and eggs. You never understood anything about inductance the entire time. You proved that by your comments. No one's willing to use you any longer to teach here at the Overunity site. It's too late. Youv've been exposed as a fake for all time. 

That's not your only area of complete ignorance: You challenge the vortex PHI theory of Electro Gravitation, and apply Square exponent "Frequency Spectrum" math to spiral 1.618 ratios of magnetism. You challenge the "Unified Field Theory" and on top of that you're a "copy and paste" addict who covers his ignorance with insults and abuse. 

You want me to discuss the units of charge, implying that I'm the one who has no understanding of inductance, while you continue to confuse everybody.

An Inductor with a measured inductance of 1 Henry will generate a magnetic field if 1 Tesla in flux density with a fixed current input. Now you pretend you are better to determine what that factor is than I am after quoting things from Citfa like Henries are bananas not monkeys and reams of other utterly ridiculous things.

Now that I towed you and your "Lug of Nuts" this far, go ahead and tell us just exactly how much current it would take to generate 1 Tesla of magnetic flux in an inductor of 1 Henry of measured inductance. Pray tell us now Mr. I.Q.!

Don't accuse Synchro1 of "Flipping the Drag Bail" on you for continued play. Everyone knows as you say: "How important these units are"!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 14, 2017, 04:16:18 PM
@Tinselkoala,

Here's something to help:

1.- "The basic unit of measurement for inductance is called the Henry, ( H ) after Joseph Henry, but it also has the units of 
Webers per Ampere ( 1 H = 1 Wb/A )".


1a.- "An ampere is a coulomb of charge per second".

2a.- "The weber /ˈweɪbər/ (symbol: Wb) is the SI unit of magnetic flux. A flux density of one Wb/m2 is one tesla".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 14, 2017, 04:53:16 PM
@Tinselkoala,

Still waiting for your reply. Here's more help:

A Kilowatt of power collected in a bank of storage batteries would accumulate into a given charge. An Ampere hour of power fed into an inductor would be stored in a magnetic flux field and add up to a charge.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 14, 2017, 05:05:56 PM
Are you having some kind of meltdown synchro?

An Amp-hour is NOT A MEASURE OF POWER. An Amp-Hour is NOT A MEASURE OF CURRENT.

The Henry and the Tesla are NOT EQUIVALENT, even if you put a minus sign in front of the Henry.

It is very clear that your words mean whatever you think they mean when you use them, not what they ACTUALLY mean. And you change what you think they mean whenever you finally get around to looking up the words you use in some kind of dictionary.

Your own words:
Quote
An Ampere hour of power fed into an inductor would be stored in a magnetic flux field and add up to a charge.
Quote
A negative Henry is the equivalent of one Tesla of magnetic strength. Both have positive values.
Quote
How much magnetic strength will one ampere-hour of current generate in an inductor of one Henry of inductance?
Quote
2.- One Tesla of magnetic strength in an inductor of one Henry of Inductance with one ampere-hour of current flowing through it reads as one negative Henry on the inductance meter. The minus sign indicates the level of magnetic strength. The inductance meter in the negative value acts as a gauss meter.


It is utterly impossible to have any kind of rational discussion with you because YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 14, 2017, 05:09:47 PM
Are you having some kind of meltdown synchro?

An Amp-hour is NOT A MEASURE OF POWER. An Amp-Hour is NOT A MEASURE OF CURRENT.

The Henry and the Tesla are NOT EQUIVALENT, even if you put a minus sign in front of the Henry.

It is very clear that your words mean whatever you think they mean when you use them, not what they ACTUALLY mean. And you change what you think they mean whenever you finally get around to looking up the words you use in some kind of dictionary.

Your own words:
It is utterly impossible to have any kind of rational discussion with you because YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

@Tinselkoala,

What's the answer to the question I asked you; How much electrical power would it take to generate 1 Tesla of magnetic flux in an inductor coil of 1 Henry of measured inductance?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 14, 2017, 05:13:10 PM

More insulting and obnoxious abuse from a complete ignoramus named TK:


Preserved this insulting and obnoxious abuse from the champion of obnoxious abuse Synchro1.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 14, 2017, 05:14:05 PM

The great TK......


There is a difference between asking a  question and expressing an opinion.  I wasn't asked a question, I was told to put up or shut up.  Me being who I am, I think I'll just keep doing things the way I do them, why, because it annoys the hell out of the authorities.....


I know why...and I rather enjoy the thought of you thinking you know why, and even better, I enjoy the thought of you thinking you know what I am thinking, I smile at the thought of you thinking you know what I know.  Please go right on thinking you know why, continue thinking you know what I am thinking, by all means pretty please keep on thinking you know what I know....see how close that gets you being in the position to demonstrate what I think I know.

Well, from your "answer" I can certainly see one thing: You aren't going to answer the simple question Mile High asked, and  you even seem to be denying that he asked it.  SO either you are being extraordinarily pig-headed, or you simply cannot answer it. 

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 14, 2017, 05:18:52 PM
@Tinselkoala,

What's the answer to the question I asked you; How much electrical power would it take to generate 1 Tesla of magnetic flux in an inductor coil of 1 Henry of measured inductance?

That is not the question you asked me.

This is the question you asked me:

Quote
How much magnetic strength will one ampere-hour of current generate in an inductor of one Henry of inductance?

And how about this howler of a statement from you:

Quote
A Kilowatt of power collected in a bank of storage batteries would accumulate into a given charge. An Ampere hour of power fed into an inductor would be stored in a magnetic flux field and add up to a charge.

Two sentences that contain at least four utter misconceptions about battery energy storage, power, current, charge, magnetism, and inductance.

Go google yourself silly, why don't you.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 14, 2017, 05:20:09 PM
Well, from your "answer" I can certainly see one thing: You aren't going to answer the simple question Mile High asked, and  you even seem to be denying that he asked it.  SO either you are being extraordinarily pig-headed, or you simply cannot answer it.

@Tinselkoala,

You scored an "F" in inductance! Let's move on to your "Spark Gap" failure:

"Tesla experimented with violently abrupt DC electrical discharges and discovered a new force in the process. Only after conducting exhaustive experimental trials for the next three years, did Tesla announce this stupendous discovery in a paper published in December, 1892, entitled "The Dissipation of Electricity". Incredibly, most academicians of the day completely missed the mark in understanding the true significance of his paper".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 14, 2017, 05:32:32 PM
Are you having some kind of meltdown synchro?

An Amp-hour is NOT A MEASURE OF POWER. An Amp-Hour is NOT A MEASURE OF CURRENT.

The Henry and the Tesla are NOT EQUIVALENT, even if you put a minus sign in front of the Henry.

It is very clear that your words mean whatever you think they mean when you use them, not what they ACTUALLY mean. And you change what you think they mean whenever you finally get around to looking up the words you use in some kind of dictionary.

Your own words:

It is utterly impossible to have any kind of rational discussion with you because YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

@Tinselkoala,

"Power in Watts = Current in Amps x Voltage. A battery rated for 100 amp hours will provide 5 amps for 20 hours. If we have a 12 volt battery, we multiply 100 by 12 and determine that the battery will provide 1200 watt hours".

How much power would it take to generate 1 Tesla of magnetic flux in an Inductor coil of 1 Henry?

Hint: Try Citfa's "Bananas are not ape shit theory".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 14, 2017, 05:52:26 PM

Hey!! You got it, I am not going to answer!  I am not denying your boy asked me anything, I am telling you that "I can certainly see" from his whatever you wish to call his style of communication with those who are his inferior, that he was making demands as is his forte.  So.... Identify with my position however you choose, I don't owe him a damn thing, you either. 


In case you didn't catch the hint, I have no use for you nor your opinions either.

@Erfinder,

Tinselkoala is like a dog barking at while running after his own tail.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 14, 2017, 06:14:26 PM
@Tinselkoala,

You're not graduating to the next topic area until you answer the question correctly. Here's a clue: The quantity is a "Box Car Unit".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 14, 2017, 06:21:52 PM
@Erfinder,

Tinselkoala is like a dog barking at while running after his own tail.

Another insult from the master of insults, preserved for posterity.

We are compiling quite a list of these insults from you. Got any more?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 14, 2017, 06:25:19 PM
@Tinselkoala,

"Power in Watts = Current in Amps x Voltage. A battery rated for 100 amp hours will provide 5 amps for 20 hours. If we have a 12 volt battery, we multiply 100 by 12 and determine that the battery will provide 1200 watt hours".

How much power would it take to generate 1 Tesla of magnetic flux in an Inductor coil of 1 Henry?

Hint: Try Citfa's "Bananas are not ape shit theory".

Now we can start to see the results of your Googling yourself silly. How much "POWER" would it take? What units do you want that in, "Ampere-hours"? "Webers per square furlong"? 

A magnetic field is not "generated" by POWER, it is INDUCED by CURRENT, that is, by AMPS, and in a coil, by AMPS x TURNS.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 14, 2017, 06:26:53 PM
@Tinselkoala,

You're not graduating to the next topic area until you answer the question correctly. Here's a clue: The quantity is a "Box Car Unit".

You are a fine one to talk. Your every post contains failures which betray your utter ignorance of your chosen topic. You couldn't teach a dog to bark.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 14, 2017, 06:28:56 PM
Here's an old video of mine. Do you think I "don't understand inductance" ? Fine, take it up with your MIT professors and see what they think about the statements you have made in this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpJwCNBHUh0

That's all you get for now, Synchro. I'm tired of feeding trolls this morning.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 14, 2017, 06:40:35 PM
Now we can start to see the results of your Googling yourself silly. How much "POWER" would it take? What units do you want that in, "Ampere-hours"? "Webers per square furlong"? 

A magnetic field is not "generated" by POWER, it is INDUCED by CURRENT, that is, by AMPS, and in a coil, by AMPS x TURNS.

@Tinselkoala,

You're hatching a "Bottle Neck" in your Cookoo's nest. You choose the unit!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 14, 2017, 06:42:51 PM
Hey!! You got it, I am not going to answer!  I am not denying your boy asked me anything, I am telling you that "I can certainly see" from his whatever you wish to call his style of communication with those who are his inferior, that he was making demands as is his forte.  So.... Identify with my position however you choose, I don't owe him a damn thing, you either. 

In case you didn't catch the hint, I have no use for you nor your opinions either.

Oh stop it already.  You can't answer a simple bloody question, just do your Batman Riddler game all the time?

I have no use for you

Right, you are the type of guy that goes to the Dollar Store and buys the $11.99 golden plastic royal crown and puts it on the top of the center of your dashboard with double-stick tape so people can see it through your windshield.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 14, 2017, 06:45:20 PM
You're hatching a "Bottle Neck" in your Cookoo's nest. You choose the unit!
I think everyone reading would agree that you have gone nuts and what you are doing amounts to troll performance art at this point in time.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 14, 2017, 06:51:32 PM
Note the very specific claims in this video by TheOldScientist about the _DC Resistance_  and the _Inductance_ of the single layer Tesla Bifilar solenoid coil he tests in comparison to the single layer monofilar coil with the same amount of wire. And note that he does not allow comments on this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNAZ6heorEc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNAZ6heorEc)

I'll have more to say about this, once people have watched and commented here about these specific measurements made by TOS.

I don't think anybody has chimed in so I will.  I have previously stated that the clip is pretty awful.  His resistance measurement is wrong and that seems to carry over into the rest of what he does in the clip.  When I watched the clip, YouTube had also linked to your clip where you make the same resistance measurements on a regular and series bifilar coil made with the same amount of wire and as expected, the resistance measurement is the same between the two coils.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fraTy20BAsY
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 14, 2017, 07:11:28 PM
I think everyone reading would agree that you have gone nuts and what you are doing amounts to troll performance art at this point in time.

@Milehigh,

I challenge you to answer the simple question that has Tinselkoala stumped. I'll repeat it:

What amount of power would be required to generate 1 Tesla of magnetic flux density in an Inductor coil with a measured inductance of 1 Henry?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 14, 2017, 07:23:39 PM
@Milehigh,

I challenge you to answer the simple question that has Tinselkoala stumped. I'll repeat it:

How much power would be required to generate 1 Tesla of magnetic flux density in an Inductor coil with a measured inductance of 1 Henry?

The answer to your question is that the question doesn't even make sense.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 14, 2017, 07:28:13 PM
The answer to your question is that the question doesn't even make sense.

@Milehigh,

That's proof that Erfinder was right when he maintained that; "You eat ape dung and crap bananas" like Citfa and Tinselkoala.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 14, 2017, 07:44:09 PM
The answer to your question is that the question doesn't even make sense.

Why can't Allen Burgess help out?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 14, 2017, 08:06:40 PM
Question for Allen Burgess:

What amount of power would be required to generate 1 Tesla of magnetic flux density in an Inductor coil with a measured inductance of 1 Henry?

Sorry, Allen's passed out drunk over a Samovar in a trash dumpster behind the "China Palace".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 14, 2017, 08:45:48 PM
Coupled with TK's Cookoo inductance club is their "Special Flyback Theory of Relativity".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 14, 2017, 09:36:02 PM
I found some great clips on the self-resonance of a regular pancake coil and a series bifilar pancake coil from our friend Conradelektro.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC84W0PIZoE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC84W0PIZoE)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spQ9yLdb7v4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spQ9yLdb7v4)

He clearly did his research and shows two measurement techniques.  Both techniques try to disturb the coil under test as little as possible and to gently coax it into resonance.  His self-resonant frequencies are in the three to nine megahertz range which I believe are in the right ballpark.  So I believe Evostars is loading his coil up too much and getting resonance frequencies in the hundreds of kilohertz range which are really the coil resonating with some form of external capacitance.  Plus what he is doing is yanking "negative" end of the coil to ground with a series of periodic whacks from an IGBT.  That is not exactly isolating the coil from the external electrical environment.

You notice that Conrad can change the self-resonant frequency of the coil by just bringing his hand _in proximity_ to the coil.  Why is that?

The answer leads back to what I have said before.  The inductance of the coil and more importantly the energy it can store is the elephant.  The transient self-capacitance of the coil is like some little shimmering gnat perched on the elephant's back.  More importantly, the fleeting energy that the self-capacitance can store is this tiny tiny minuscule amount of energy before everything goes *poof* and there is an electric arc shorting out two adjacent turns.

The capacitance is sooooo tiny that just having your hand in proximity to the coil changes the self-resonating frequency of the coil.  In effect, you have the few picofarads of the self-capacitance of the coil being affected by the few picofarads of your hand in proximity of the coil.

Notice that the coil always self-resonates in the form of a sine wave.

So, what's so exciting about an elephant with a tiny little gnat on its back that you can only see with a magnifying glass?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 14, 2017, 09:50:46 PM
Another thing that I think many beginners don't realize.  Realistically, the smallest capacitors that you typically can work with to make a functional and reliable circuit are in the nanofarad range.  When you drop into the picofarad range effectively you are lost in the "noise" of the ambient parasitic capacitance.  Just the tip of your finger touching a component represents about a 10 picofarad capacitive load.  However, that is in contrast with using a picofarad capacitor in a sensing application where you are just trying to pick up a high-frequency signal while trying to disturb the source of the signal as little as possible.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 14, 2017, 10:05:47 PM

The answer leads back to what I have said before.  The inductance of the coil and more importantly the energy it can store is the elephant.  The transient self-capacitance of the coil is like some little shimmering gnat perched on the elephant's back.  More importantly, the fleeting energy that the self-capacitance can store is this tiny tiny minuscule amount of energy before everything goes *poof* and there is an electric arc shorting out two adjacent turns.

The capacitance is sooooo tiny that just having your hand in proximity to the coil changes the self-capacitance of the coil.

Notice that the coil always self-resonates in the form of a sine wave.

So, what's so exciting about an elephant with a tiny little gnat on its back that you can only see with a magnifying glass?


I cant agree with what you say about the capacitance. Just because it is minute does not mean it does not function. The only difference between a very tiny capacitance or a larger capacitance, in a resonant LC, is the freq of the resonance and the time it takes to ring off once input is taken away. The larger capacitance should ring longer, but each cycle takes longer to complete than the tiny cap.

If we were to discharge an inductor into a cap, the same inductive charge for each cap, the larger cap will have a lower voltage than the smaller cap. None the less, the tiny cap will take all that the inductor can give, just like the large cap will, just that the smaller cap will be at a higher voltage than the larger cap, of which levels out the playing field as to which cap is more significant than the other

By saying that the capacitance of a bifi coil is so insignificant that it cant be noticed or even compare to a larger cap is nonsense. The tiny capacitance, no matter how small can hold just as much energy as a larger cap. The problem with realization of that is the difference in voltage for each respectively.   Sure you can have 2 caps 100uf and 1uf and compare. But if both are rated and limited to 16v, then yes, the larger cap can and will be a more significant charge at the same voltage level for each. Maybe some people have that stuck in their heads and thats just how it is. But lets use a 1uf at 1kv in comparison to the 100uf at 16v. Now the amount of energy in each is so much closer.

Mags

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 14, 2017, 10:48:57 PM
The answer to your question is that the question doesn't even make sense.

@Milehigh,

In view of your follow up comments, I find it hard to believe you can't make sense of the question. Since I can't believe you're really that stupid, I have to believe you're a fraud.

Both you and Tinselkoala were banned from posting on the Energetic Forum site by Aaron. This to inform you and your miscreant co-conspirator, that I am in the process of filing a formal complaint to Stephan in Berlin to have you both permanently stricken from posting any further comments on this Web site.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 14, 2017, 11:04:55 PM
Together, Tinselkoala and Milehigh have deliberately and methodically "Orange Coned" the bridge to Overunity. This deception has gone on for the eight years I've been commenting on this Web site. I plan to put a stop to it at this time.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 14, 2017, 11:21:12 PM
@Milehigh,

In view of your follow up comments, I find it hard to believe you can't make sense of the question. Since I can't believe you're really that stupid, I have to believe you're a fraud.

Both you and Tinselkoala were banned from posting on the Energetic Forum site by Aaron. This to inform you and your miscreant co-conspirator, that I am in the process of filing a formal complaint to Stephan in Berlin to have you both permanently stricken from posting any further comments on this Web site.

Be sure to include these statements from YOU: 

@Milehigh,

That's proof that Erfinder was right when he maintained that; "You eat ape dung and crap bananas" like Citfa and Tinselkoala.

That, of course, is not only a lie, but is also a vile and disgusting statement befitting a nine-year-old child with emotional problems.
Nobody currently posting on this forum is more disruptive, insulting, and flat out WRONG than you are, Synchro. Nobody.

Coupled with TK's Cookoo inductance club is their "Special Flyback Theory of Relativity".

That, of course, refers to something in Sychro's imagination only.

And how about these priceless little gems from Synchro:

Quote from: synchro1 on April 07, 2017, 08:26:29 PM (http://overunity.com/17186/the-bifilar-pancake-coil-at-its-resonant-frequency/msg503468/#msg503468)<blockquote>
Quote
(snip)
You're a compulsive psychopath and need help.

</blockquote>

Quote from: synchro1 on April 07, 2017, 08:43:06 PM (http://overunity.com/17186/the-bifilar-pancake-coil-at-its-resonant-frequency/msg503472/#msg503472)<blockquote>
Quote
You're stinking drunk and a slob!

</blockquote>
Quote from: synchro1 on April 07, 2017, 08:52:49 PM (http://overunity.com/17186/the-bifilar-pancake-coil-at-its-resonant-frequency/msg503474/#msg503474)<blockquote>
Quote
Barf, blubber puss sucking shyster schwienehunt!
</blockquote>

Quote from: synchro1 on April 07, 2017, 09:21:50 PM (http://overunity.com/17186/the-bifilar-pancake-coil-at-its-resonant-frequency/msg503479/#msg503479)<blockquote>
Quote
Booze hound!
</blockquote>
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 14, 2017, 11:26:36 PM
Together, Tinselkoala and Milehigh have deliberately and methodically "Orange Coned" the bridge to Overunity. This deception has gone on for the eight years I've been commenting on this Web site. I plan to put a stop to it at this time.

You cannot refute one single thing I've posted on this website, while you are being refuted over and over by many people here. You can stomp your feet and hold your breath all you like, but the fact remains that MH and I are staunch contributors of FACTS and reasonable arguments, whereas you are an insulting, foul mouthed, whiney, false claimant who habitually distorts, misrepresents, makes false claims, can't understand units or calculus and you even refute YOURSELF and make yourself look silly with much of what you post. 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 14, 2017, 11:41:08 PM
You cannot refute one single thing I've posted on this website, while you are being refuted over and over by many people here. You can stomp your feet and hold your breath all you like, but the fact remains that MH and I are staunch contributors of FACTS and reasonable arguments, whereas you are an insulting, foul mouthed, whiney, false claimant who habitually distorts, misrepresents, makes false claims, can't understand units or calculus and you even refute YOURSELF and make yourself look silly with much of what you post.

@Tinselkoala,

You two "Fossil Fuel Lobby Sock Puppets" degraded John Bedini the same way. That's how you both got booted off Aaron's Forum.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 15, 2017, 12:22:02 AM
@Tinselkoala and Milehigh,

Message successfully sent to Stephan Hartiberlin this afternoon at 4:15 P.M. CT.

It's time for anyone else who disapproves of these "Disinformation Agents" to let their feelings be heard by Stephan Hartiberlin.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 15, 2017, 12:38:21 AM
@Tinselkoala,

"Power in Watts = Current in Amps x Voltage. A battery rated for 100 amp hours will provide 5 amps for 20 hours. If we have a 12 volt battery, we multiply 100 by 12 and determine that the battery will provide 1200 watt hours".

How much power would it take to generate 1 Tesla of magnetic flux in an Inductor coil of 1 Henry?

Hint: Try Citfa's "Bananas are not ape shit theory".

No
The calculated amp hours a battery will deliver,is based around a !usable! voltage value--which in most cases is between 10.5 volts and 13.2 volts for a 12 volt battery-not just 12 volts.

So,for every hour your load draws 5 amp's from that battery,the energy delivered to the load will be less and less every hour.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 15, 2017, 12:57:33 AM
@Tinselkoala and Milehigh,

Message successfully sent to Stephan Hartiberlin this afternoon at 4:15 P.M. CT.

It's time for anyone else who disapproves of these "Disinformation Agents" to let their feelings be heard by Stephan.

I think you may have shot yourself in the foot synchro,as i too will be sending an email to Stefan.

I think you need to go back to that junk forum !EF!-and stay there,as they thrive on rubbish like your's,as it can make AM and PL a heap of money,through sales of books full of secrets.

All i have seen on this thread,is multitudes of unfounded claims and insults from you

Brad

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ARMCORTEX on April 15, 2017, 01:04:02 AM
@Tinselkoala,

You two "Fossil Fuel Lobby Sock Puppets" degraded John Bedini the same way. That's how you both got booted off Aaron's Forum.

I have also been banned from those sites, those sites are for Low IQ incompetent people that talk to themselves and enjoy wasting time.

Tinselkoala is a man with dirty fingers because of all he builds, the knobs of his oscilloscope are damaged because he has used it so much.

You on the other hand are a little whiny baby, nobody is stopping you from building anything. Go and prove TK wrong nobody is stopping you, TK is not tying your hands up, you are free as a bird to go and do whatever you want.

Its funny to see people use this excuse... Tk is stopping me from achieving over unity... Because he is arguing with me on a forum... Poor me... All this bad stuff is happening because of oil companies ... Boo hoo woo  :'( . Everybody who disagrees with overunity  should be banned because once those people are banned overunity  will happen ::)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 15, 2017, 01:37:52 AM

I cant agree with what you say about the capacitance. Just because it is minute does not mean it does not function. The only difference between a very tiny capacitance or a larger capacitance, in a resonant LC, is the freq of the resonance and the time it takes to ring off once input is taken away. The larger capacitance should ring longer, but each cycle takes longer to complete than the tiny cap.

If we were to discharge an inductor into a cap, the same inductive charge for each cap, the larger cap will have a lower voltage than the smaller cap. None the less, the tiny cap will take all that the inductor can give, just like the large cap will, just that the smaller cap will be at a higher voltage than the larger cap, of which levels out the playing field as to which cap is more significant than the other

By saying that the capacitance of a bifi coil is so insignificant that it cant be noticed or even compare to a larger cap is nonsense. The tiny capacitance, no matter how small can hold just as much energy as a larger cap. The problem with realization of that is the difference in voltage for each respectively.   Sure you can have 2 caps 100uf and 1uf and compare. But if both are rated and limited to 16v, then yes, the larger cap can and will be a more significant charge at the same voltage level for each. Maybe some people have that stuck in their heads and thats just how it is. But lets use a 1uf at 1kv in comparison to the 100uf at 16v. Now the amount of energy in each is so much closer.

Mags

Okay, so let's use Conrad's numbers for his series bifilar pancake coil from his second clip and make some inferences.

His numbers:  34 microhenries, 49 picofarads of self-capacitance and a 3.9 megahertz self-resonant frequency.

We know that air typically breaks down at 20 kilovolts per centimeter.  Let's assume the spacing between turns is one millimeter and we will simply ballpark the breakdown though the insulation as 4 kilovolts.  In other words, we are doubling the air breakdown to factor in the insulation.

Max energy stored in the self-capacitance (at peak voltage):  E = 1/2 * 49 pF * (4 kV)^2 =  392 microjoules.

How much current does that correspond to (at peak current):  i = sqrt ((2*E)/L) =  4.8 amps

So the RMS current through the self-resonating coil would be on the order of 4.8/1.414 = 3.39 amp RMS

So if we assume a 10-ohm coil the power dissipated would be on the order of 3.39^2 x 10 = 114 watts.

Obviously it is not realistic to have a hand-sized self-resonating pancake coil dissipating about 114 watts.  So let's scale everything down to 10 watts dissipation.  So the RMS current has to be about one amp and the peak current 1.414 amps.  So the inductive energy becomes 34 microjoules.  That translates into a peak capacitance voltage of 1178 volts.

That seems pretty realistic.  You have a fairly hot pancake coil self-resonating at 2356 volts peak to peak, storing 34 microjoules of energy and you are feeding about 10 watts of continuous power into it by some means to keep it resonating at 3.9 megahertz.

So the questions must be asked:  SO WHAT, and WHY?

Why would I want to store a measly 34 mircojoules of energy in a resonant cavity blazing away at 3.9 megahertz when I have to continuously pump 10 watts into the series bifilar pancake coil to sustain the resonance?

What precisely is that going to do for me?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 15, 2017, 01:52:25 AM
No
The calculated amp hours a battery will deliver,is based around a !usable! voltage value--which in most cases is between 10.5 volts and 13.2 volts for a 12 volt battery-not just 12 volts.

So,for every hour your load draws 5 amp's from that battery,the energy delivered to the load will be less and less every hour.


Brad

@Tinman,

Please answer the question:

What amount of power would be required to generate 1 Tesla of magnetic flux density in an "Inductor Coil" with a measured inductance of 1 Henry?

I don't want to re-hear why the answer of "1 Ampere Hour" that I supplied is wrong; I want the to hear the right one if indeed it's wrong. Milehigh's opinion that the question is meaningless is unacceptable; If you want lynch me over this, so-be-it.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 15, 2017, 02:11:07 AM
Also let's use Conrad's numbers again to look at the series bifilar coil a different way:

34 microhenries, 49 picofarads of self-capacitance

Let's just say that a reasonable peak-to-peak voltage for the self-resonating coil is 400 volts.

So the capacitive energy is 0.98 microjoules.

Now, I am going to make an apples and oranges comparison here.  Let's assume the inductor is pulsed at a low duty cycle in some kind of pulse circuit such that the average power dissipation from the 10-ohm coil is low and not an issue, and the peak current through the coil is 400 milliamperes.

So the inductive energy is 2.72 mircojoules.

Well, in this apples and oranges comparison, the two energy levels are pretty comparable and it certainly doesn't look like a gnat sitting on the back of an elephant.  However, there is one caveat.  If the coil is functioning in some kind of pulse circuit the self-capacitance is not really there, there is no real self-resonance taking place.  In that context you have what looks like a gnat sitting on the back of an elephant.

Finally, one last kick at the napkin.

If the self-resonance is say 40 volts peak-to-peak, then the energy stored in the self-capacitance is 0.0098 microjoules.  And the energy in the coll at 400 milliamperes is 2.72 microjoules.

In this apples and oranges comparison the inductive energy is 277 times the capacitive energy.  So more like a big racoon on the back on an elephant than a gnat on the back of an elephant.

Note how everything is in microjoules territory?  Here is an experiment for the "daring" - and it is an exercise in number crunching.  Find the right capacitance value for 10 microjoules of energy to charge the capacitor up to 10 volts.  Then touch the two terminals of the capacitor to your tongue and see what 10 microjoules feels like.  I am not even sure you will be able to feel the discharge.

What purpose does the series bifilar pancake or regular series bifilar coil serve?  I have asked this question many times and never got an answer.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 15, 2017, 02:46:24 AM
Also let's use Conrad's numbers again to look at the series bifilar coil a different way:

34 microhenries, 49 picofarads of self-capacitance

Let's just say that a reasonable peak-to-peak voltage for the self-resonating coil is 400 volts.

So the capacitive energy is 0.98 microjoules.

Now, I am going to make an apples and oranges comparison here.  Let's assume the inductor is pulsed at a low duty cycle in some kind of pulse circuit such that the average power dissipation from the 10-ohm coil is low and not an issue, and the peak current through the coil is 400 milliamperes.

So the inductive energy is 2.72 mircojoules.

Well, in this apples and oranges comparison, the two energy levels are pretty comparable and it certainly doesn't look like a gnat sitting on the back of an elephant.  However, there is one caveat.  If the coil is functioning in some kind of pulse circuit the self-capacitance is not really there, there is no real self-resonance taking place.  In that context you have what looks like a gnat sitting on the back of an elephant.

Finally, one last kick at the napkin.

If the self-resonance is say 40 volts peak-to-peak, then the energy stored in the self-capacitance is 0.0098 microjoules.  And the energy in the coll at 400 milliamperes is 2.72 microjoules.

In this apples and oranges comparison the inductive energy is 277 times the capacitive energy.  So more like a big racoon on the back on an elephant than a gnat on the back of an elephant.

Note how everything is in microjoules territory?  Here is an experiment for the "daring" - and it is an exercise in number crunching.  Find the right capacitance value for 10 microjoules of energy to charge the capacitor up to 10 volts.  Then touch the two terminals of the capacitor to your tongue and see what 10 microjoules feels like.  I am not even sure you will be able to feel the discharge.

What purpose does the series bifilar pancake or regular series bifilar coil serve?  I have asked this question many times and never got an answer.

MileHigh

@Milehigh,

Here's your answer; If you believe the question I re-asked above is meaningless, how can anyone place any credibility in your chronic de-bunking of Tesla's serial bifilar pancake coil? 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 15, 2017, 03:12:15 AM
@Milehigh,

You obviously either don't know your basics, or you're a stinking fraud. Now, which one is it?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 15, 2017, 03:35:15 AM
@Citfa

How do we know you're telling the truth? Anyone can say anything, like I was a Naval aviator who kidded about leading the "Blue Angels". I think you're a liar. You can't understand basic laws of electronics and magnetism. Knock it off. The ruse is up. Everyone can see how little you really know. I'll tell you what's boring is trying to teach you simple basics you perpetually deny.




Allen You better talk to your lawyer before you call someone a liar on a public forum again.  He can explain what the consequences of your actions could be.  Defamation of character for no reason is punishable by our legal system.  I could easily own all you have if i desired to pursue your false claims against me.  You need to retract that statement with a public apology immediately.


Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 15, 2017, 03:51:59 AM
My request has been sent to have Allen Burgess AKA Synchro1 permanently banned from this forum.  He has done nothing but cause trouble ever since he was allowed again to start posting.  He obviously has only one goal and that is to cause as much disruption of this forum as possible.  We certainly have better things to do than provide entertainment for a nine year old bully.


Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 15, 2017, 04:34:24 AM

Allen You better talk to your lawyer before you call someone a liar on a public forum again.  He can explain what the consequences of your actions could be.  Defamation of character for no reason is punishable by our legal system.  I could easily own all you have if i desired to pursue your false claims against me.  You need to retract that statement with a public apology immediately.


Carroll

@Citfa,

Sue me you prevaricating "Crackpot"! Wait until you see my counter complaint for frivolous litigation. First you stated you studied electronics for 50 years, then you admitted all you did was sweep floors in a machine shop for 30.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 15, 2017, 05:26:29 AM
@Citfa,

You started this problem with me over a year and a half ago when Whoppyjump asked for an explanation of "Flyback". I explained to him back then that positive current goes into the coil, then when the input current's interrupted, the magnetic field collapses and negative current goes out.

You contacted Stephan in Berlin and asked him to lock the thread down. Now just what in the hell is your problem? What is it that you fail to understand about my explanation? Why is it impossible for you to comprehend that?

You advanced your totally preposterous theory that "Negative Current" is imaginary. That's why you're constantly berated by me!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 15, 2017, 06:34:30 AM
@Tinselkoala,

You refer to the X,Y coordinate discharge graph as "Differential Calculus". The graph would need a third Z axis to qualify. That's you trying to sound too smart.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 15, 2017, 07:28:21 AM
The "1 Ampere Hour" is defined as at 1 volt therefore it's equal to one "Watt Hour". A six volt battery, discharging into the inductor over 10 minutes would require 1 ampere of current to deliver 6 watts. That's a lot of power to run into an inductor. A Henry is a large value like a Farad, and a Tesla of magnetic flux density is a very powerful magnetic force. These factors would come into play in the industrial sector. Laboratory coils usually measure in the Micro-Henries and would use the Oersted for the magnetic force measurement and the coulomb for the input power.

These factors are essential for electronics engineers who design T.V.'s, and especially to calculate Hi-voltage discharges from "Flyback" transformers.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 15, 2017, 08:58:27 AM
@Tinselkoala,

You refer to the X,Y coordinate discharge graph as "Differential Calculus". The graph would need a third Z axis to qualify. That's you trying to sound too smart.

You just keep coming up with new howlers, in addition to misrepresenting what I "refer" to. See this? d(quantity)/dt, a differential, the change in a quantity over a change in time, or the SLOPE of a quantity/time graph, or to put it in one simple word of four letters, a RATE at which the QUANTITY changes.

Quote
In mathematics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics), differential calculus is a subfield of calculus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calculus) concerned with the study of the rates at which quantities change.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_calculus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_calculus)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/Tangent_to_a_curve.svg/200px-Tangent_to_a_curve.svg.png (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/Tangent_to_a_curve.svg/200px-Tangent_to_a_curve.svg.png)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 15, 2017, 09:22:42 AM
The "1 Ampere Hour" is defined as at 1 volt therefore it's equal to one "Watt Hour".

NO, it ISN'T.  The Ampere-Hour is a measure of CHARGE and is not "defined as at 1 volt".  The Ampere is 1 Coulomb per second, and one hour is 3600 seconds, so the Ampere-Hour is 3600 COULOMBS of CHARGE. Where do you see VOLTS in that definition? Nowhere except in your mind.

The Watt-Hour is a measure of ENERGY. The Watt is 1 Joule per second, and one hour is 3600 seconds, so the Watt-hour is 3600 JOULES of ENERGY.

The JOULE is NOT EQUAL to the COULOMB.The Ampere-Hour IS NOT EQUAL to one WATT-HOUR. CHARGE is not ENERGY, Division is not Multiplication.  I know you flunked calculus and physics; did you flunk basic algebra as well?

You should at least try googling BEFORE you make silly posts.

Quote
A six volt battery, discharging into the inductor over 10 minutes would require 1 ampere of current to deliver 6 watts. That's a lot of power to run into an inductor. A Henry is a large value like a Farad, and a Tesla of magnetic flux density is a very powerful magnetic force. These factors would come into play in the industrial sector. Laboratory coils usually measure in the Micro-Henries and would use the Oersted for the magnetic force measurement and the coulomb for the input power.

These factors are essential for electronics engineers who design T.V.'s, and especially to calculate Hi-voltage discharges from "Flyback" transformers.

Once again you are making no sense. "Laboratory Coils" could be of any inductance value at all depending on their purpose, six watts is not "a lot of power to run into an inductor", the Coulomb is not a measure of power, the Oersted is not a measure of force it is the unit of the magnetic quantity H, it is in units of Ampere/meter, and EEs who design TVs would be laughing their guts out to read your string of nonsense posts.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 15, 2017, 09:30:32 AM
@Citfa,

You started this problem with me over a year and a half ago when Whoppyjump asked for an explanation of "Flyback". I explained to him back then that positive current goes into the coil, then when the input current's interrupted, the magnetic field collapses and negative current goes out.

You contacted Stephan in Berlin and asked him to lock the thread down. Now just what in the hell is your problem? What is it that you fail to understand about my explanation? Why is it impossible for you to comprehend that?

You advanced your totally preposterous theory that "Negative Current" is imaginary. That's why you're constantly berated by me!

Doubling down on a losing hand AGAIN?

The "problem" here is that you don't understand your chosen topic, and your "explanations" are bogus, simply wrong. When the magnetic field collapses in a coil, the current continues in the SAME DIRECTION out of the coil, driven by the magnetic field's collapse. We have been over and over this, you have been presented with many references and demonstrations, but you persist in your easily falsifiable claims.

Why is there a "flyback diode" across a relay coil? Why do the LEDs behave as they do in my demonstrations? Why do Mile High, Cifta, TinMan, and every other knowledgeable poster here agree on this issue, but you don't?  It is because you don't know what you are talking about.

"Negative current" is your misnomer for CURRENT flowing one way, "Positive current" is your misnomer for CURRENT flowing the other way. CURRENT in wires is the flow of CHARGE, that is, the NEGATIVE UNIT CHARGE carried by electrons. The AMPERE is the unit of CURRENT, and it is measured in COULOMBS of CHARGE per SECOND. 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2017, 09:41:50 AM
Okay, so let's use Conrad's numbers for his series bifilar pancake coil from his second clip and make some inferences.

His numbers:  34 microhenries, 49 picofarads of self-capacitance and a 3.9 megahertz self-resonant frequency.

We know that air typically breaks down at 20 kilovolts per centimeter.  Let's assume the spacing between turns is one millimeter and we will simply ballpark the breakdown though the insulation as 4 kilovolts.  In other words, we are doubling the air breakdown to factor in the insulation.

Max energy stored in the self-capacitance (at peak voltage):  E = 1/2 * 49 pF * (4 kV)^2 =  392 microjoules.

How much current does that correspond to (at peak current):  i = sqrt ((2*E)/L) =  4.8 amps

So the RMS current through the self-resonating coil would be on the order of 4.8/1.414 = 3.39 amp RMS

So if we assume a 10-ohm coil the power dissipated would be on the order of 3.39^2 x 10 = 114 watts.

Obviously it is not realistic to have a hand-sized self-resonating pancake coil dissipating about 114 watts.  So let's scale everything down to 10 watts dissipation.  So the RMS current has to be about one amp and the peak current 1.414 amps.  So the inductive energy becomes 34 microjoules.  That translates into a peak capacitance voltage of 1178 volts.

That seems pretty realistic.  You have a fairly hot pancake coil self-resonating at 2356 volts peak to peak, storing 34 microjoules of energy and you are feeding about 10 watts of continuous power into it by some means to keep it resonating at 3.9 megahertz.

So the questions must be asked:  SO WHAT, and WHY?

Why would I want to store a measly 34 mircojoules of energy in a resonant cavity blazing away at 3.9 megahertz when I have to continuously pump 10 watts into the series bifilar pancake coil to sustain the resonance?

What precisely is that going to do for me?

First I have to say that you simply interpreting that the coil is 10ohms gives your offering whatever outcome you are trying to convince others of.

Why cant the coil be 1ohm? or even .5ohm? Clearly he is not using wire that would have a 10ohm outcome. Looks to be 18 to 20ga, where 10ohms on that would mean he is using some resistive wire of sorts. Im only pointing that out as you used his 34uh coil and 49pf in your example. Saying or say, assuming his coil is 10ohm just by looking at it is a pretty big misstep in my opinion and using that 10ohm example changes what the actual outcome that you show and id say its totally misleading. Take another look at those coils. Did he say they were 10ohm? How many feet of wire do you think are on those coils? lets say that we can agree that the wire looks to be even 20ga. Do you still 'feel' that the resistance would be anything close to 10ohms? When you buy a cheap stereo system for the home and it comes with 2 10ft roles of say 20ga wire and the speaker is, now a days, 4ohm, what would 10ohms of resistance in the wire do to the outcome of the speaker output?

I just measured a 100ft roll of 18ga wire. 100ft!  1.4ohm ???    So would you say that his coils look like there is 700ft of wire there? ;)

Now, if the coil did have 700ft of wire in order for the resistance to be 10ohm, then that completely changes the outcome of the inductance AND capacitance of which you are using in your example, big time. ;) So you may need to rewrite you thesis on that one.
 

 You say that he is feeding the coil 10w to keep it going at resonance. In my experience, at resonance the input is largely minimized. Where did you get that number??

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2017, 09:50:07 AM
Doubling down on a losing hand AGAIN?

The "problem" here is that you don't understand your chosen topic, and your "explanations" are bogus, simply wrong. When the magnetic field collapses in a coil, the current continues in the SAME DIRECTION out of the coil, driven by the magnetic field's collapse. We have been over and over this, you have been presented with many references and demonstrations, but you persist in your easily falsifiable claims.

Why is there a "flyback diode" across a relay coil? Why do the LEDs behave as they do in my demonstrations? Why do Mile High, Cifta, TinMan, and every other knowledgeable poster here agree on this issue, but you don't?  It is because you don't know what you are talking about.

"Negative current" is your misnomer for CURRENT flowing one way, "Positive current" is your misnomer for CURRENT flowing the other way. CURRENT in wires is the flow of CHARGE, that is, the NEGATIVE UNIT CHARGE carried by electrons. The AMPERE is the unit of CURRENT, and it is measured in COULOMBS of CHARGE per SECOND.

I am in total agreement on the fact that the field collapse generates a current in the same direction of the input that built it. Could someone misinterpret a scope shot, seeing the voltage differential change at the time of input connect then disconnect as a current reversal? Maybe thats the bungle here?

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 15, 2017, 11:01:55 AM
@Tinman,

Please answer the question:

What amount of power would be required to generate 1 Tesla of magnetic flux density in an "Inductor Coil" with a measured inductance of 1 Henry?



As MH said,your question makes no sense.

The Tesla is a measure of magnetic field strength-not magnetic flux density.

It's no wonder no one wants to answer your questions--they make no sense.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 15, 2017, 11:10:16 AM
@Citfa,

You started this problem with me over a year and a half ago when Whoppyjump asked for an explanation of "Flyback". I explained to him back then that positive current goes into the coil, then when the input current's interrupted, the magnetic field collapses and negative current goes out.

You contacted Stephan in Berlin and asked him to lock the thread down. Now just what in the hell is your problem? What is it that you fail to understand about my explanation? Why is it impossible for you to comprehend that?

You advanced your totally preposterous theory that "Negative Current" is imaginary. That's why you're constantly berated by me!

For the last time--no it dose not.

The current flowing out of the coil,when the source current is interrupted,is in the same direction it was when the source current was connected.

Please try and get this through your head,as you are the one spreading miss information with your negative current rubbish.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 15, 2017, 11:12:47 AM
I am in total agreement on the fact that the field collapse generates a current in the same direction of the input that built it. Could someone misinterpret a scope shot, seeing the voltage differential change at the time of input connect then disconnect as a current reversal? Maybe thats the bungle here?

Mags

I mentioned this some pages back,and i have seen this very mistake quite often before.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 15, 2017, 11:14:48 AM
First I have to say that you simply interpreting that the coil is 10ohms gives your offering whatever outcome you are trying to convince others of.

Why cant the coil be 1ohm? or even .5ohm? Clearly he is not using wire that would have a 10ohm outcome. Looks to be 18 to 20ga, where 10ohms on that would mean he is using some resistive wire of sorts. Im only pointing that out as you used his 34uh coil and 49pf in your example. Saying or say, assuming his coil is 10ohm just by looking at it is a pretty big misstep in my opinion and using that 10ohm example changes what the actual outcome that you show and id say its totally misleading. Take another look at those coils. Did he say they were 10ohm? How many feet of wire do you think are on those coils? lets say that we can agree that the wire looks to be even 20ga. Do you still 'feel' that the resistance would be anything close to 10ohms? When you buy a cheap stereo system for the home and it comes with 2 10ft roles of say 20ga wire and the speaker is, now a days, 4ohm, what would 10ohms of resistance in the wire do to the outcome of the speaker output?

I just measured a 100ft roll of 18ga wire. 100ft!  1.4ohm ???    So would you say that his coils look like there is 700ft of wire there? ;)

Now, if the coil did have 700ft of wire in order for the resistance to be 10ohm, then that completely changes the outcome of the inductance AND capacitance of which you are using in your example, big time. ;) So you may need to rewrite you thesis on that one.
 

 You say that he is feeding the coil 10w to keep it going at resonance. In my experience, at resonance the input is largely minimized. Where did you get that number??

Mags

I would say those coils would be lucky to be .10 ohm's.
Looks like plastic coated building wire to me.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: gyulasun on April 15, 2017, 11:22:12 AM
Here is Conrad's video on his bifilar coil tests, Part 2  this is what MileHigh has referred to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spQ9yLdb7v4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spQ9yLdb7v4) 

The coil parameters are clearly listed in the description text under the video, I quote:

"The following parameters are identical for both coils:

diameter of coil:     90 mm
number of wire turns:   30 monofilar, 15 bifilar
DC resistance:     0.4 Ohm
Inductance:     34 µH , measured with a LCR meter
phase angle in Z:     3 degrees, measured with a LCR meter"

So 0.4 Ohm DC resistance is involved.

Using MileHigh example of the 3.39 A RMS current in this coil, power loss would be 3.39^2 x 0.4 = 4.59 W instead of 114 W for a 10 Ohm coil. 
Once we use most parameters of a practical coil, why not use its exact DC resistance too?

Gyula 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 15, 2017, 11:36:09 AM
1 watt hour of power generates 1 Tesla of magnetic force in a coil of 1 Henry of inductance. How come no one could answer this question?

None of these "F" in inductance people can define "Negative Current" either!

Positive power goes in one electrode of the coil and out the other. When the power's interrupted, negative current leaves the coil in the same direction as the positive current did.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 15, 2017, 11:44:06 AM
Wouldnt it be better if we look at the differences between the single wound pancake coil,and the bifiler pancake coil,and see if we can work out what those differences mean-or how they would change the operating characteristics of the coil.

Lets say that each coil(1x single wound,and one bifilar wound)has 100 turns in total,and we pulse each coil with a 100 volt potential across each coil--what ever frequency.

Now,as far as i know,the single wound coil would have 1 volt potential difference between each winding--although i believe that the potential difference between the windings at the center would be less than 1 volt,and increase between windings as you get toward the outer windings.


But,with the bifilar coil,the voltage between windings will always be 50 volts.
So,i see one coil with an uneven voltage between windings,and the other with an even voltage between windings.

So,what dose this mean ?
If each winding is seen as the two plates of a capacitor,and one coil dose not have an even voltage between winding,and the other dose-how would the stored capacitive energy stack up between the two?

Then there is the magnetic field--how would it differ between the two?
Dose the voltage potential between windings play any part in how the magnetic field will propagate around those windings,and that coil as a whole ?.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2017, 11:47:22 AM
I would say those coils would be lucky to be .10 ohm's.
Looks like plastic coated building wire to me.


Brad

Yeah, I have gone through many many miles of wire of all sizes for 42awg to 0ga.  His analysis just never seems to jive with what is shown as an example. I dont want to start shit here but it had to be said, for the record. ;)

Mags
 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 15, 2017, 11:53:26 AM
1 watt hour of power generates 1 Tesla of magnetic force in a coil of 1 Henry of inductance. How come no one could answer this question?

None of these "F" in inductance people can define "Negative Current" either!



Your question was-->What amount of power would be required to generate 1 Tesla of magnetic flux density in an "Inductor Coil" with a measured inductance of 1 Henry?

Your answer was-->1 watt hour of power generates 1 Tesla of magnetic force

You dont even know how to answer your own questions.

Quote
Positive power goes in one electrode of the coil and out the other. When the power's interrupted, negative current leaves the coil in the same direction as the positive current did.

So now this negative and positive current of yours,flows in the same direction  ::)


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2017, 12:00:25 PM
Here is Conrad's video on his bifilar coil tests, Part 2  this is what MileHigh has referred to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spQ9yLdb7v4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spQ9yLdb7v4) 

The coil parameters are clearly listed in the description text under the video, I quote:

"The following parameters are identical for both coils:

diameter of coil:     90 mm
number of wire turns:   30 monofilar, 15 bifilar
DC resistance:     0.4 Ohm
Inductance:     34 µH , measured with a LCR meter
phase angle in Z:     3 degrees, measured with a LCR meter"

So 0.4 Ohm DC resistance is involved.

Using MileHigh example of the 3.39 A RMS current in this coil, power loss would be 3.39^2 x 0.4 = 4.59 W instead of 114 W for a 10 Ohm coil. 
Once we use most parameters of a practical coil, why not use its exact DC resistance too?

Gyula


Thanks. I didnt get into the sec vid.  And exactly on that last one.

I was on chat with someone that while we were talking, he inspired me to think beyond what is known commonly with the bifilar coils. He would not give me any answers, but made me think as we went along. So i came up with, is there a difference between the induction of 2 coils of a transformer if when the windings are separate, like side by side, or 1st layer and second layer, as compared to a bifilar winding used as a pri and sec for each conductor in the winding, and he said, "now your thinking"

So that is my next experiment. Never though to try that. Hopefully others will give it a go.  This was some weeks ago. I have recently thought, well what if we want a step up or step down? What happens with the extra turns of the step up secondary if it doesnt have any more primary to roll with?  Anyway, Ill go for the 1 to 1 and do some things to see if there is anything to it.


Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 15, 2017, 12:03:55 PM
1 watt hour of power generates 1 Tesla of magnetic force in a coil of 1 Henry of inductance. How come no one could answer this question?

None of these "F" in inductance people can define "Negative Current" either!

Positive power goes in one electrode of the coil and out the other. When the power's interrupted, [b]negative current [/b]leaves the coil in the same direction as the positive current did.

So a few pages back,you said negative current flows in the opposite direction to positive current,and now it flows in the same direction  ???

Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 15, 2017, 12:06:05 PM


Thanks. I didnt get into the sec vid.  And exactly on that last one.

I was on chat with someone that while we were talking, he inspired me to think beyond what is known commonly with the bifilar coils. He would not give me any answers, but made me think as we went along. So i came up with, is there a difference between the induction of 2 coils of a transformer if when the windings are separate, like side by side, or 1st layer and second layer, as compared to a bifilar winding used as a pri and sec for each conductor in the winding, and he said, "now your thinking"

So that is my next experiment. Never though to try that. Hopefully others will give it a go.  This was some weeks ago. I have recently thought, well what if we want a step up or step down? What happens with the extra turns of the step up secondary if it doesnt have any more primary to roll with?  Anyway, Ill go for the 1 to 1 and do some things to see if there is anything to it.


Mags

Mags

Your thoughts on my post-796 ?


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 15, 2017, 12:17:38 PM
So a few pages back,you said negative current flows in the opposite direction to positive current,and now it flows in the same direction  ???

Brad

@Tinman,

Please watch this video by Lidmotor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0c8TnAX_oE
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 15, 2017, 12:20:12 PM
@Tinman,

I made the comparison to a man boarding a bus and walking toward the rear of the bus while the bus accelerates forward. Think about this! The man is going backwards while traveling forward at the same time.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 15, 2017, 12:38:31 PM
@Tinman,

Please watch this video by Lidmotor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0c8TnAX_oE

Unfortunately Lidmotor got it wrong,as the energy continues to flow in the same direction--surly you can see that by the way the LEDs are orientated.
If the energy(current flow) went backward's,then the LEDs would not light.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 15, 2017, 12:43:14 PM
@Tinman,

I made the comparison to a man boarding a bus and walking toward the rear of the bus while the bus accelerates forward. Think about this! The man is going backwards while traveling forward at the same time.

The man is only walking to the back of the bus,and so if your frame of reference is the bus,then the man is walking forward to the rear of the bus,and the bus is not moving.
If your frame of reference is the man,then the man is walking forward.
If your frame of reference is a stationary point on the ground,and the bus is moving forward faster than the man is walking to the back of the bus,then the man and the bus are moving forward.

Your point was?


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 15, 2017, 12:48:16 PM
The man is only walking to the back of the bus,and so if your frame of reference is the bus,then the man is walking forward to the rear of the bus,and the bus is not moving.
If your frame of reference is the man,then the man is walking forward.
If your frame of reference is a stationary point on the ground,and the bus is moving forward faster than the man is walking to the back of the bus,then the man and the bus are moving forward.

Your point was?


Brad

@Tinman,

Exactly, It's all relative. Give me a few minutes, I'm searching another video which may  help clear this paradox up. The force the man exerts walking to and fro on the bus while the bus is moving in one direction is equal both ways.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 15, 2017, 12:58:43 PM
@Tinman,

Here's a diagram of positive and negative current traveling in the same direction. The "Negative Current" is represented by the green colored upside down curve below the zero line:
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 15, 2017, 01:29:51 PM
As MH said,your question makes no sense.

The Tesla is a measure of magnetic field strength-not magnetic flux density.

It's no wonder no one wants to answer your questions--they make no sense.


Brad

@Tinman,

"A flux density of 1 Wb/m2 is 1 tesla".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 15, 2017, 01:38:44 PM
Doubling down on a losing hand AGAIN?

The "problem" here is that you don't understand your chosen topic, and your "explanations" are bogus, simply wrong. When the magnetic field collapses in a coil, the current continues in the SAME DIRECTION out of the coil, driven by the magnetic field's collapse. We have been over and over this, you have been presented with many references and demonstrations, but you persist in your easily falsifiable claims.

Why is there a "flyback diode" across a relay coil? Why do the LEDs behave as they do in my demonstrations? Why do Mile High, Cifta, TinMan, and every other knowledgeable poster here agree on this issue, but you don't?  It is because you don't know what you are talking about.

"Negative current" is your misnomer for CURRENT flowing one way, "Positive current" is your misnomer for CURRENT flowing the other way. CURRENT in wires is the flow of CHARGE, that is, the NEGATIVE UNIT CHARGE carried by electrons. The AMPERE is the unit of CURRENT, and it is measured in COULOMBS of CHARGE per SECOND.

@Tinselkoala,

You're right, when the magnetic field collapses, the current continues to travel in the same direction except it's the bottom half of a sine wave with a negative value. You, Milehigh, Citfa and Tinman and a host of others continue to confuse people about the nature of A.C. current, like the current that's generated by the Ruhmkorff coil secondary when the current's interrupted in the primary. You are a shameless fraud.

Lawrence Tseung stated that "Negative Current" is the pathway to Overunity. That's why you continue to help keep people confused about it. You don't want it! Everyone knows you Judas Priests are nothing but paid Lackeys for the "Fossil Fuel Lobby". Go to hell and burn there for all eternity you Satanic fraud, and take your pack Jackels with you!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 15, 2017, 01:44:30 PM
First I have to say that you simply interpreting that the coil is 10ohms gives your offering whatever outcome you are trying to convince others of.

Why cant the coil be 1ohm? or even .5ohm? Clearly he is not using wire that would have a 10ohm outcome. Looks to be 18 to 20ga, where 10ohms on that would mean he is using some resistive wire of sorts. Im only pointing that out as you used his 34uh coil and 49pf in your example. Saying or say, assuming his coil is 10ohm just by looking at it is a pretty big misstep in my opinion and using that 10ohm example changes what the actual outcome that you show and id say its totally misleading. Take another look at those coils. Did he say they were 10ohm? How many feet of wire do you think are on those coils? lets say that we can agree that the wire looks to be even 20ga. Do you still 'feel' that the resistance would be anything close to 10ohms? When you buy a cheap stereo system for the home and it comes with 2 10ft roles of say 20ga wire and the speaker is, now a days, 4ohm, what would 10ohms of resistance in the wire do to the outcome of the speaker output?

I just measured a 100ft roll of 18ga wire. 100ft!  1.4ohm ???    So would you say that his coils look like there is 700ft of wire there? ;)

Now, if the coil did have 700ft of wire in order for the resistance to be 10ohm, then that completely changes the outcome of the inductance AND capacitance of which you are using in your example, big time. ;) So you may need to rewrite you thesis on that one.
 

 You say that he is feeding the coil 10w to keep it going at resonance. In my experience, at resonance the input is largely minimized. Where did you get that number??

Mags

Sure, I made a mistake, but I certainly didn't make it on purpose.  I know Conrad documents himself very well, but in this case I failed to read his text description and I just didn't have the stomach to watch the clips again to see if he mentioned the resistance.  I had just watched TK's clip where his resistance reading was about 10 ohms so I used that.  That's why I say, "if we assume a 10-ohm coil."

So Gyula did the calculation based on the true resistance of 0.4 ohms.

We go from this:  114 watts dissipation for 392 microjoules of energy storage

To this:  4.59 watts dissipation for 392 microjpules of energy storage

In the wrong case we have 10^2 dissipation for 10^-4 of energy storage, that's six orders of magnitude difference.

In the correct case we have 10^0 dissipation for 10^-4 of energy storage, that's four orders of magnitude difference.

The conclusion?  The point I made still stands, you pump a lot of power into a self-resonating series bifilar pancake coil to store a minuscule amount of energy.

What you also should appreciate is that you and others have been talking about bifilar coils for something like seven years, and I am willing to bet that you have never seen anyone do this very simple approximate power and energy analysis for a bifilar coil.  Why is that if you are supposed to be so fascinated with this patent?

Quote
You say that he is feeding the coil 10w to keep it going at resonance. In my experience, at resonance the input is largely minimized. Where did you get that number??

Just go read the posting again to see where I get the number.

Finally, I will highlight (and correct) what I said again below because I am looking for an answer from you and from all people that talk about this patent and glorify the Tesla series bifilar coil:

So the questions must be asked:  SO WHAT, and WHY?

Why would I want to store a measly 392 mircojoules of energy in a resonant cavity blazing away at 3.9 megahertz when I have to continuously pump 4.59 watts into the series bifilar pancake coil to sustain the resonance?

What precisely is that going to do for me?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 15, 2017, 02:14:19 PM
I was on chat with someone that while we were talking, he inspired me to think beyond what is known commonly with the bifilar coils. He would not give me any answers, but made me think as we went along. So i came up with, is there a difference between the induction of 2 coils of a transformer if when the windings are separate, like side by side, or 1st layer and second layer, as compared to a bifilar winding used as a pri and sec for each conductor in the winding, and he said, "now your thinking"

So that is my next experiment. Never though to try that. Hopefully others will give it a go.  This was some weeks ago. I have recently thought, well what if we want a step up or step down? What happens with the extra turns of the step up secondary if it doesnt have any more primary to roll with?  Anyway, Ill go for the 1 to 1 and do some things to see if there is anything to it.

When you are talking about a conventional transformer with a core, then the differences are essentially going to be zero.  There is no logical or rational reason for there there to be any real differences.  It doesn't matter if the windings are separate or side by side or on opposite sides of the core.  The primary winding will pump almost 100% of its flux into the high-permeability core irregardless of if the secondary winding is separate from it or inter-meshed with it.  Likewise the only thing that the secondary winding cares about is the fact that it sees changing flux through the core that it is wrapped around.

It sometimes blows my mind how people can't seem to work these things out in their heads by applying their knowledge.  It seems so many people chase after imaginary things like some sort of fairy tale superstition.  It's the same deal with the series bifilar coil, pancake or otherwise.  They are almost indignant that you pose questions about it's application and practicality.  Yet, so far, it seems nobody can actually answer these questions.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2017, 02:17:07 PM
Wouldnt it be better if we look at the differences between the single wound pancake coil,and the bifiler pancake coil,and see if we can work out what those differences mean-or how they would change the operating characteristics of the coil.

Lets say that each coil(1x single wound,and one bifilar wound)has 100 turns in total,and we pulse each coil with a 100 volt potential across each coil--what ever frequency.

Now,as far as i know,the single wound coil would have 1 volt potential difference between each winding--although i believe that the potential difference between the windings at the center would be less than 1 volt,and increase between windings as you get toward the outer windings.


But,with the bifilar coil,the voltage between windings will always be 50 volts.
So,i see one coil with an uneven voltage between windings,and the other with an even voltage between windings.

So,what dose this mean ?
If each winding is seen as the two plates of a capacitor,and one coil dose not have an even voltage between winding,and the other dose-how would the stored capacitive energy stack up between the two?

Then there is the magnetic field--how would it differ between the two?
Dose the voltage potential between windings play any part in how the magnetic field will propagate around those windings,and that coil as a whole ?.


Brad

In response to your last post to me.....

It took me some time to figure that one out and even though I know it well now, im still thinking about how we can take advantage of the bifi situation.

The difference between having 1v difference between adjacent turns and having a 50v difference should be a huge alteration of how the capacitance reacts for each.

And I would think that the most notable effect would be that the bifi capacitance would react much faster to accepting an immediate input than the monofilar winding mostly for the reason that a 50v difference between each turn should have a much greater capacitive attraction between the 2 charges than would only a 1v difference. Thats how I see it and Im sticking to it. Like if instantaneously the 50v difference appears between each turn, how does that compare to 1v between each turn?

Tesla says in the pat  that the bifi coil will accept an input and ignore the coils induction and will only be impeded by the resistance of the coil a a whole. Read that again and let it sink in. It very possible that looking into the resonance aspect of the bifilar is not the right direction here, but disruptive discharge pulsing is the way to go.

What that tells me is that the bifi winding should accept an input 'pulse' to full resistive currents without delay of inductive impedance.  I have to interpret that as the bifi will have a max mag field immediately. A super charged field build in a modifed(bifi vs monofi) coil that the normal coil cannot do.  So I guess that if we can make a magnetic field build at much much higher speeds than a normal winding, then maybe we can take advantage of that with a secondary. So now we would have to look at how a pickup coil or a literal secondary would react to that kind of magnetic impact.

We can just about do that with a very tiny inductance, say maybe a 3 turn primary made of 10ga for example.  So in that situation, we pulse the pri and we use a lot of current to produce that near instantaneous field build to cut the sec.  So if we have a 100 turn coil with say a resistance of 1.4ohm(a real example I just posted earlier ;D ) and we monitor the field build with a pickup coil, the field will build over time giving a gradual induction to the pickup till max pri current. But a 100 turn bifi should, according to Tesla should reach full max mag field build, instantaneously. And we should be able to detect that with a sec or just a pickup coil. Would that produce ou? Dunno yet. Guy was a frikin genious to even come up with such a thing and work out the nature of it. ;) A human oscilloscope he was.

So the 3 turn 10ga at very sub ohm levels and very small inductive impedance vs 100turns of 18ga at 1.4 ohm bifi that reacts with 0 or say even near 0 inductive impedance and many turns with a field build that is faster than the 3 turn winding, which one would be more eff at inducing the sec? Crazy stuff.

So a regular and bifi of 100 turns actually have the same physical capacitance between each turn, but the effect of the voltage difference between each turn should magnify the capacitive attraction between each turn and attracting input, what, 50 times in the example?

Lots to think and do with all that....

Maybe an improvement would be using flat conductors to increase capacitance and reduce resistance and still have a compact coil. Tito had suggested producing a mag field with a capacitor, and maybe thats it.



Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 15, 2017, 02:26:37 PM
@Tinman,

Here's a diagram of positive and negative current traveling in the same direction. The "Negative Current" is represented by the green colored upside down curve below the zero line:

Maybe this will help you understand synchro.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2017, 02:27:40 PM
Sure, I made a mistake, but I certainly didn't make it on purpose.

But is funny. I know you consider yourself to be well above me in all this stuff, yet I can recognize an approximate coil resistance just by looking at it in a vid without proper perspective. If you are going to stand as an authority on these things here then I would expect the same kind of prowess as I had shown here. Sure you can lay it down and say it was a mistake, but at the time you were laying it down as if it were textbook example of what is going on in conrads coils. You resistance number was so far off that it made a uh and pf coil to look like the outcome was more than 200% worse than it actually is. Thats a big mistake, not a little tiny baby mistake. So its just hard to not think that maybe you are making these changes on purpose for your own benefit at degrading the experiments here. Sorry but as you know, this is not the first time for such mistakes of this sort.

mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2017, 02:34:48 PM
When you are talking about a conventional transformer with a core, then the differences are essentially going to be zero.  There is no logical or rational reason for there there to be any real differences.  It doesn't matter if the windings are separate or side by side or on opposite sides of the core.  The primary winding will pump almost 100% of its flux into the high-permeability core irregardless of if the secondary winding is separate from it or inter-meshed with it.  Likewise the only thing that the secondary winding cares about is the fact that it sees changing flux through the core that it is wrapped around.

It sometimes blows my mind how people can't seem to work these things out in their heads by applying their knowledge.  It seems so many people chase after imaginary things like some sort of fairy tale superstition.  It's the same deal with the series bifilar coil, pancake or otherwise.  They are almost indignant that you pose questions about it's application and practicality.  Yet, so far, it seems nobody can actually answer these questions.

So far I have only really put effort into possible resonance of the bifi, that seemed to be the logical possibility considering all the resonance talk associated with them.  I have not concentrated on cap discharge int a bifi or the possible diff of a normal pri/sec vs bifi pri/sec. So that is all just a next step.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 15, 2017, 02:38:17 PM
In response to your last post to me.....

It took me some time to figure that one out and even though I know it well now, im still thinking about how we can take advantage of the bifi situation.

The difference between having 1v difference between adjacent turns and having a 50v difference should be a huge alteration of how the capacitance reacts for each.

And I would think that the most notable effect would be that the bifi capacitance would react much faster to accepting an immediate input than the monofilar winding mostly for the reason that a 50v difference between each turn should have a much greater capacitive attraction between the 2 charges than would only a 1v difference. Thats how I see it and Im sticking to it. Like if instantaneously the 50v difference appears between each turn, how does that compare to 1v between each turn?

Tesla says in the pat  that the bifi coil will accept an input and ignore the coils induction and will only be impeded by the resistance of the coil a a whole. Read that again and let it sink in. It very possible that looking into the resonance aspect of the bifilar is not the right direction here, but disruptive discharge pulsing is the way to go.

What that tells me is that the bifi winding should accept an input 'pulse' to full resistive currents without delay of inductive impedance.  I have to interpret that as the bifi will have a max mag field immediately. A super charged field build in a modifed(bifi vs monofi) coil that the normal coil cannot do.  So I guess that if we can make a magnetic field build at much much higher speeds than a normal winding, then maybe we can take advantage of that with a secondary. So now we would have to look at how a pickup coil or a literal secondary would react to that kind of magnetic impact.

We can just about do that with a very tiny inductance, say maybe a 3 turn primary made of 10ga for example.  So in that situation, we pulse the pri and we use a lot of current to produce that near instantaneous field build to cut the sec.  So if we have a 100 turn coil with say a resistance of 1.4ohm(a real example I just posted earlier ;D ) and we monitor the field build with a pickup coil, the field will build over time giving a gradual induction to the pickup till max pri current. But a 100 turn bifi should, according to Tesla should reach full max mag field build, instantaneously. And we should be able to detect that with a sec or just a pickup coil. Would that produce ou? Dunno yet. Guy was a frikin genious to even come up with such a thing and work out the nature of it. ;) A human oscilloscope he was.

So the 3 turn 10ga at very sub ohm levels and very small inductive impedance vs 100turns of 18ga at 1.4 ohm bifi that reacts with 0 or say even near 0 inductive impedance and many turns with a field build that is faster than the 3 turn winding, which one would be more eff at inducing the sec? Crazy stuff.

So a regular and bifi of 100 turns actually have the same physical capacitance between each turn, but the effect of the voltage difference between each turn should magnify the capacitive attraction between each turn and attracting input, what, 50 times in the example?

Lots to think and do with all that....

Maybe an improvement would be using flat conductors to increase capacitance and reduce resistance and still have a compact coil.



Mags

Well,guess i am going to have to wind a couple of pancake coils now-1x mono,and 1x bifiler.

 
Quote
Tito had suggested producing a mag field with a capacitor, and maybe thats it.

All the caps i have pulled apart,have the input taps at the center of the rolls of plates,and so,the current will flow CW around half the windings of each plate,and CCW around the other half of each plate. This would cancel out any magnetic field--maybe that is why they make them like that.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2017, 02:38:20 PM
@Tinman,

"A flux density of 1 Wb/m2 is 1 tesla".

I would think that flux density and field strength go hand in hand. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 15, 2017, 02:49:31 PM
But is funny. I know you consider yourself to be well above me in all this stuff, yet I can recognize an approximate coil resistance just by looking at it in a vid without proper perspective. If you are going to stand as an authority on these things here then I would expect the same kind of prowess as I had shown here. Sure you can lay it down and say it was a mistake, but at the time you were laying it down as if it were textbook example of what is going on in conrads coils. You resistance number was so far off that it made a uh and pf coil to look like the outcome was more than 200% worse than it actually is. Thats a big mistake, not a little tiny baby mistake. So its just hard to not think that maybe you are making these changes on purpose for your own benefit at degrading the experiments here. Sorry but as you know, this is not the first time for such mistakes of this sort.

mags

If you have a scientific mind you should realize that if the coil is one ohm or ten ohms it doesn't really matter.  The point is the energy storage in the resonant cavity is minuscule in comparison the power that is burned off to sustain that resonant cavity.

Quote
So its just hard to not think that maybe you are making these changes on purpose for your own benefit at degrading the experiments here.

The above is nonsense talk and take your ridiculous MIB fantasies elsewhere, don't lay them on me.

I am still asking you to tell me what use a series bifilar coil has in the real world.

Your speculation about a series biflilar coil "giving you an instant magnetic field" is you just fantasizing again.  The very nature of the impedance of a coil and it's refusal to allow for the instant creation of a magnetic field is because it takes real electrical work to create that magnetic field.  There is an energy density in the volume of the 3D space where the magnetic field exists, and that energy comes from the current flow slowly ramping up and overcoming the electrical inertia of the coil and filling the 3D space with magnetic energy.

You can fill up a capacitor quickly and store energy in 3D space in the form of an electric field, but you can't energize an inductor quickly and store energy in 3D space in the form of a magnetic field.  It's just the nature of the beast, it's the deck of cards that Nature has given us.  So your fantasies about a "near-instant magnetic field" from a bifilar coil are not going to happen.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 15, 2017, 03:04:31 PM
If you have a scientific mind you should realize that if the coil is one ohm or ten ohms it doesn't really matter.  The point is the energy storage in the resonant cavity is minuscule in comparison the power that is burned off to sustain that resonant cavity.

The above is nonsense talk and take your ridiculous MIB fantasies elsewhere, don't lay them on me.

I am still asking you to tell me what use a series bifilar coil has in the real world.

Your speculation about a series biflilar coil "giving you an instant magnetic field" is you just fantasizing again.  The very nature of the impedance of a coil and it's refusal to allow for the instant creation of a magnetic field is because it takes real electrical work to create that magnetic field.  There is an energy density in the volume of the 3D space where the magnetic field exists, and that energy comes from the current flow slowly ramping up and overcoming the electrical inertia of the coil and filling the 3D space with magnetic energy.

You can fill up a capacitor quickly and store energy in 3D space in the form of an electric field, but you can't energize an inductor quickly and store energy in 3D space in the form of a magnetic field.  It's just the nature of the beast, it's the deck of cards that Nature has given us.  So your fantasies about a "near-instant magnetic field" from a bifilar coil are not going to happen.

So,are you saying that it will make no difference having 1 volt difference between turns,and 50 volts difference between turns?.

Well,looks like i really do have to wind me two coils now.
It's 9pm here--i got this  ;)
Have no idea what happened to my old one's.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: maxc on April 15, 2017, 03:04:37 PM
  You need to measure the input power.
Get a good capacitor charging it up for the input power. Run your transistor off separate power source  power source. The rest is basic math.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 15, 2017, 03:23:27 PM
Well, since were are discussing the idea of the creation of a near-instant magnetic field by an inductor, then how can that be accomplished?  In theory there is a way to do it, so how do you go about it?

I am not going to answer the question and I would ask those that know to not answer the question.  The point is to get the wheels in your heads turning and thinking and analyzing and creating.  Many of you have been playing with coils for upwards of 10 years now, so what is the recipe for a near-instant magnetic field from a coil?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 15, 2017, 03:26:48 PM
Not needed MH,, keep it nice please.
Then is the question more like,, Does the coil when it has no impedance produce a magnetic field?

I think that you could see that a coil that could instantly produce a magnetic field could then have an adjacent coil that is open while the field is created  and then closed to a load would slow that field collapse.

Then go scold Magluvin for suggesting my motives are nefarious.

Quote
Does the coil when it has no impedance produce a magnetic field?

That is another nonsensical question.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 15, 2017, 04:07:25 PM
Mags said,
Quote
Tesla says in the pat  that the bifi coil will accept an input and ignore the coils induction and will only be impeded by the resistance of the coil a a whole. Read that again and let it sink in.

Actually, what Tesla says in the patent is that _ANY_ and _EVERY_ coil acts this way if the right capacitance and frequency are used.

Quoting Tesla's patent 512340:
Quote
l have found that in every coil there exists a certain relation between its self-induction and capacity that permits a current of given frequency and potential to pass through it with no other opposition than that of ohmic resistance, or, in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction. This is due to the mutual relations existing between the special character of the current and the self-induction and capacity of the coil, the latter quantity being just capable of neutralizing the self-induction for that frequency. It is well known that the higher the frequency or potential difference of the current the smaller the capacity required to counteract the self induction; hence, in any coil, however small the capacity, it may be sufficient for the purpose stated if the proper conditions in other respects be secured. In the ordinary coils the difference of potential between adjacent turns or spires is ,very small, so that while they are in a sense condensers, they possess but very small capacity and the relations between the two quantities, self-induction and capacity, are not such as under any ordinary conditions satisfy the requirements herein contemplated, because the capacity relatively to the self-induction is very small.

"in any ordinary conditions" meant, in Tesla's day, at "low" frequencies, ie under 1 MHz, and with wires and insulations he had available.
 
We have been over this time and time again. The advantage of increased distributed capacitance in the TBF winding was that "the proper conditions" for attaining this counteraction of self induction could be attained at a lower frequency, that is, at a frequency he could reach with his apparatus, and ideally without the use of expensive, cumbersome and difficult to maintain condensers (capacitors). Today, and for a long time, capacitor technology has improved to the point where the required condensers to attain the "proper conditions" in ANY and EVERY coil are cheap, compact and require no maintenance. Compare if you will a modern strontium-titanate HV doorknob capacitor with a Leyden jar of the same capacitance and voltage handling capability.

Quoting Tesla's patent 512340:
Quote
The effects of self-induction, above referred to, are known to be neutralized by proportioning to a proper degree the capacity of the circuit with relation to the self-induction and frequency of the currents. This has been accomplished heretofore by the use of condensers constructed and applied as separate instruments.  My present invention has for its object to avoid the employment of condensers which are expensive, cumbersome and difficult to maintain in perfect condition, and to so construct the coils themselves as to accomplish the same ultimate object.


"Heretofore", that is, before the patented invention, that is... in "ordinary" monofilar coils.



Is it starting to sink in yet?    ;)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 15, 2017, 04:11:46 PM
And... by the way... capacitors take time to build an electric field and charge up to a given voltage, and inductors take time to build a magnetic field and pass a given current. Nothing happens instantaneously.

Quote
The time required for the current flowing in the LR series circuit to reach its maximum steady state value is equivalent to about 5 time constants or 5τ. This time constant τ, is measured by τ = L/R, in seconds, were R is the value of the resistor in ohms and L is the value of the inductor in Henries.

http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/inductor/lr-circuits.html
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 15, 2017, 04:16:27 PM
1 watt hour of power generates 1 Tesla of magnetic force in a coil of 1 Henry of inductance. How come no one could answer this question?

None of these "F" in inductance people can define "Negative Current" either!

Positive power goes in one electrode of the coil and out the other. When the power's interrupted, negative current leaves the coil in the same direction as the positive current did.

The watt-hour is NOT A MEASURE OF POWER. And there is no difference between the current leaving the coil in the same direction when power is interrupted, and the current leaving the coil when the power is on, except that the current when power is on may be steady-state, and the current when power is interrupted is decreasing. Your "negative current" is a misnomer.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 15, 2017, 04:19:54 PM
I am in total agreement on the fact that the field collapse generates a current in the same direction of the input that built it. Could someone misinterpret a scope shot, seeing the voltage differential change at the time of input connect then disconnect as a current reversal? Maybe thats the bungle here?

Mags

Yes, and not only that but the scope probe adds substantial capacitance and can cause ringing, which complicates the picture considerably. The LED tests that I and TinMan have shown and proposed eliminate these problems and give unequivocal and easy (for most people) to interpret results.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 15, 2017, 04:33:56 PM
I would say those coils would be lucky to be .10 ohm's.
Looks like plastic coated building wire to me.


Brad
Conrad's work is instructive in many ways. But for the best increase in distributed capacitance the adjacent conductors of the windings need to be as close together as possible,without shorting due to the high voltage differences.
SO using heavy plastic-insulated wire is not going to give as much interturn capacitance as will enamel-coated magnet wire closely wound, all other things being equal.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2017, 04:39:45 PM
If you have a scientific mind you should realize that if the coil is one ohm or ten ohms it doesn't really matter.  The point is the energy storage in the resonant cavity is minuscule in comparison the power that is burned off to sustain that resonant cavity.

The above is nonsense talk and take your ridiculous MIB fantasies elsewhere, don't lay them on me.

I am still asking you to tell me what use a series bifilar coil has in the real world.

Your speculation about a series biflilar coil "giving you an instant magnetic field" is you just fantasizing again.  The very nature of the impedance of a coil and it's refusal to allow for the instant creation of a magnetic field is because it takes real electrical work to create that magnetic field.  There is an energy density in the volume of the 3D space where the magnetic field exists, and that energy comes from the current flow slowly ramping up and overcoming the electrical inertia of the coil and filling the 3D space with magnetic energy.

You can fill up a capacitor quickly and store energy in 3D space in the form of an electric field, but you can't energize an inductor quickly and store energy in 3D space in the form of a magnetic field.  It's just the nature of the beast, it's the deck of cards that Nature has given us.  So your fantasies about a "near-instant magnetic field" from a bifilar coil are not going to happen.


"If you have a scientific mind you should realize that if the coil is one ohm or ten ohms it doesn't really matter." 

But you "made" it look way way worse than the actual outcome. Way worse. If you made that mistake working at a law firm you would be fired. By making it look that bad why would anyone in their right mind even try for themselves once they innocently take in your concocted results as 'fact', that are sooo far of it isnt even funny anymore.


"The point is the energy storage in the resonant cavity is minuscule in comparison the power that is burned off to sustain that resonant cavity."

Id have to say that others here and myself can prove you very very wrong on that statement. My pendulum using the same magnets and same coils I got out of identical speakers, I was able to apply an input of say 5v into the motor side and I was able to get a higher gen voltage out of the gen side, each side a mirror image of the other. Now, if we had to identical dc motors, of any kind, and we did the shaft to shaft, applied 12v to the driver motor, would you ever expect anything above 12 out of the gen motor? My guess is that you would not and say it is impossible. And I agree. Because that situation does not have a resonance component, but my pendulum did, and it did. Wasnt much but it did IT. It did what most everyone would say cant happen no way. But it did. ;) Just to achieve that voltage increase is enough to prove that resonance based transfer is better than a transfer without resonance. Just like a radio station and a receiver, they count on the efficiency of resonance to make transfer more efficient from one to the other.  And I dont want to hear that the voltage increase on the pendulum is not an indicator of any value compared to a non resonant transfer. If before I told you that it would be a higher output voltage than the input with identical components for the drive side and gen side, just like identical dc motors, the same, you would not believe it to be possible? Would you? Heck no because you say that resonance is basically as good as current through an energy wasting resistor. But thats clearly not the case. Still working on improvements on that one. Its funny how little things can change the outcome more and more the more you try. ;)




"Your speculation about a series biflilar coil "giving you an instant magnetic field" is you just fantasizing again.  The very nature of the impedance of a coil and it's refusal to allow for the instant creation of a magnetic field is because it takes real electrical work to create that magnetic field.  There is an energy density in the volume of the 3D space where the magnetic field exists, and that energy comes from the current flow slowly ramping up and overcoming the electrical inertia of the coil and filling the 3D space with magnetic energy."

Your one of these guys, and its stored here on this sight, that degrades the intelligence of Tesla like he wasnt even an Edison. Ive seen it time and again from you.  Well I can see he was not your typical genius. I can see that he was right and Edison was wrong on many things.  I can see that he was well beyond in understanding of these things than just about anyone for his time. But you just dismiss it all like you never dug in and read his brilliant madness. Probably not. Or if you did you would see also. But maybe you have and you just dont wish to give him credit for anything, for 'some' reason. Anyway, Tesla said this is the operation in a series bifi coil winding, and if you dont believe it or agree with it then we will try and see.  I dont think anyone has actually gotten into those 3 ideas with the bifi yet. The only thing I can imagine with a mag field expanding to max field instantly is that we would have to capture that expanded field to get an output.  Like if it were just a bifi coil with the properties that Tesla suggests, then applying input then taking it away would not get us anything because the field max is determined by the current due to coil resistance, and the collapse for each coil bifi or normal will be the same outcome in either case. So the specialty claim by Tesla of the series bifi is that applied input will ignore the coils inductance and is only limited by resistance. So my intelect tells me that if the delay of current build is ignored then current should max out instantly, just like a non inductive resistor, like TK agreed with me on the other day here. So the magnetic field should build just as fast as the currents. What do we to with that? Lets see.

So here we are once again, we will test these new ideas and see what comes of them.  Its not about resonance anymore, on this one, so you can keep that talk down while we get 'our' hands dirty and burned with the soldering iron occasionally. ;D 1 Cap discharge into a bifi.  2 The pri or sec of few turns around the perimeter as an air core transformer and  3 Transformer action between 2 bifi windings. 3 new tests to try and all very simple in comparison to some ongoing topics here.





"You can fill up a capacitor quickly and store energy in 3D space in the form of an electric field, but you can't energize an inductor quickly and store energy in 3D space in the form of a magnetic field.  It's just the nature of the beast, it's the deck of cards that Nature has given us.  So your fantasies about a "near-instant magnetic field" from a bifilar coil are not going to happen."

The inductor would have to have a maintained input to 'hold' the energy stored in the field. But thats to say longer term than reaching max field. So say we just pulse it with HV from a cap, spark discharge, what ever, IF the field is built instantaneously, then we have the option of shutting of the input in a very short period of time with a coil that should not operate that fast, supposedly as infinitely small as it takes to expand the field, then shut of input and redo. A coil that looks like it can only work at freq of so high, but can be used just like a 3 turn heavy ga primary when it comes to freq of operation. What can we do with that? Nobody knows yet. Well, maybe some do. ;)

So yeah, the inductor is not a storage device like a cap, but I dont see anyone here saying otherwise that you needed to make that statement anyway. ???



Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 15, 2017, 04:41:31 PM
@Tinselkoala,

You're right, when the magnetic field collapses, the current continues to travel in the same direction except it's the bottom half of a sine wave with a negative value.

No, it isn't. It is DC current of the same direction and polarity as when the DC current is on. Look again at my demonstrations and at TinMan's suggestion. Do it yourself, if you can.

Quote
You, Milehigh, Citfa and Tinman and a host of others continue to confuse people about the nature of A.C. current, like the current that's generated by the Ruhmkorff coil secondary when the current's interrupted in the primary. You are a shameless fraud.


No, I am not, and neither are the rest of the people who actually understand what is happening. It is you who do not understand your chosen topic.

Quote

Lawrence Tseung stated that "Negative Current" is the pathway to Overunity. That's why you continue to help keep people confused about it. You don't want it! Everyone knows you Judas Priests are nothing but paid Lackeys for the "Fossil Fuel Lobby". Go to hell and burn there for all eternity you Satanic fraud, and take your pack Jackels with you!

Preserved once again for posterity. You dare to curse me? Be careful that your curse does not backfire onto yourself.
 
Lawrence has made many claims that have turned out not to be true. Remember the "overunity Joule Thief" fiasco? How about the "overunity kitchen stool"? I do not bother Lawrence because he has a good heart and he will (eventually) admit when he is wrong. Unlike yourself. By continuing in your manifest ERRORS, it is you who must be called a "Satanic Fraud", because you are doing real damage to young minds who may not have the education or practical experience of certain real experimenters and teachers we find on this forum.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 15, 2017, 04:44:54 PM
Quote
So my intelect tells me that if the delay of current build is ignored then current should max out instantly, just like a non inductive resistor, like TK agreed with me on the other day here.

Whaaat? If we ignore the delay of current build, the current should max out instantly? Whaaaaat? If you ignore the coffee that is in the pot, then there is no coffee in the pot?

Where did I ever agree to that? Link or quotation please.

Nothing happens instantly.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2017, 04:45:34 PM
Conrad's work is instructive in many ways. But for the best increase in distributed capacitance the adjacent conductors of the windings need to be as close together as possible,without shorting due to the high voltage differences.
SO using heavy plastic-insulated wire is not going to give as much interturn capacitance as will enamel-coated magnet wire closely wound, all other things being equal.

Yes.  Probably the best would be square profile enamel wire. Also comes in a rectangular kind also. That would increase surface area proximity between windings.  In Telsas drawing of the series bifi is seems to show some heavy insulation, but that doesnt change the fact that it could be better.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 15, 2017, 04:52:32 PM
Well,guess i am going to have to wind a couple of pancake coils now-1x mono,and 1x bifiler.
They can be a real bitch to wind. I just made a matching monofilar coil to the two bifilars that I posted a picture of earlier, #27 wire filling one side of a CD-ROM. It took about 2 hours of solid concentration with no breaks possible. Trying to do it with #33 magnet wire would be nearly impossible for a mortal human being.
But of course the finer the wire: the longer, the more DC resistance, the more inductance, the more distributed capacitance, the easier it is to test and examine claims.
Good luck and I'm looking forward to seeing your testing. I'll be posting another video myself soon.

Quote

All the caps i have pulled apart,have the input taps at the center of the rolls of plates,and so,the current will flow CW around half the windings of each plate,and CCW around the other half of each plate. This would cancel out any magnetic field--maybe that is why they make them like that.


Brad

Yes, considerable effort goes into making capacitors as non-inductive as possible. Think about the tiny capacitors and inductors in a cellphone! Operating at several gigaHz frequencies, even the inductance of a short straight trace on the printed circuit board is significant.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2017, 04:56:21 PM
Whaaat? If we ignore the delay of current build, the current should max out instantly? Whaaaaat? If you ignore the coffee that is in the pot, then there is no coffee in the pot?

Where did I ever agree to that? Link or quotation please.

Nothing happens instantly.

I was referring to your reply to my post about resistance on that and you said "exactly Mags"  Ill look it up if need be.

On what you quoted me on above, Im just relaying what Tesla says in the pat on electromagnets.  The inductance is ignored by the input and the only current limiting factor over time is the coils resistance. So it was the resistance part that you agreed with me on that the currents through a non inductive resistor has no delay in reaching max current V/R. Soo, if Teslas claim is correct then if we pulse the bifi coil, the only thing the input sees is the resistance and if the current reaches max instantly then what of the magnetic field it generated?  Its a short read. So why not investigate THAT claim?  ;)

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 15, 2017, 04:57:39 PM
Quote
Lawrence has made many claims that have turned out not to be true. Remember the "overunity Joule Thief" fiasco?

Until you have no theory, then any attempt for replication of overunity devices is just naive Cargo Cult "science". In this thread (http://overunity.com/17220/n-r-m-r-e-an-investigation/60/quote/504360/) we can see it with example of attempt for replication (http://overunity.com/17220/n-r-m-r-e-an-investigation/dlattach/attach/163425/image//) of Nelson's Rocha parametric circuit. 'This circuit is basically normal Joule-Thief, i.e. very classical Armstrong oscillator in essence. But simple change of single wire placement will change it into way more complex parametric oscillator with potential overunity capability. You can't get this detail just from plain circuit scheme. Maybe even the constructors of first Joule Thief overunity circuits weren't aware of this option - so that they failed in replications of their own prototypes. The same troubles did follow the early attempts for replication of cold fusion and another findings, which has lead into their premature dismissal.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 15, 2017, 05:03:27 PM
Conrad's work is instructive in many ways. But for the best increase in distributed capacitance the adjacent conductors of the windings need to be as close together as possible,without shorting due to the high voltage differences.
SO using heavy plastic-insulated wire is not going to give as much interturn capacitance as will enamel-coated magnet wire closely wound, all other things being equal.

Yes, a very good point about Conrad's setup having low capacitance considering the wire he was using.  What's great about his two clips is the way he excites the coil and makes the measurements.

So presumably you will have more capacitance with finer enamel-coated wire, with the trade-off being more resistance and less maximum inter-filar voltage.

My challenge to anyone is to then crunch the numbers and determine the estimated continuous burn-off power to sustain a self-resonant cavity of X microjoules.  Then draw your own conclusions about that.  And of course the continuous challenge is to state what the series bifilar coil does for us and what practical applications can you do with it.  Just staring at a sine wave on your oscilloscope is useless in the real world.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2017, 05:10:23 PM
They can be a real bitch to wind. I just made a matching monofilar coil to the two bifilars that I posted a picture of earlier, #27 wire filling one side of a CD-ROM. It took about 2 hours of solid concentration with no breaks possible. Trying to do it with #33 magnet wire would be nearly impossible for a mortal human being.
But of course the finer the wire: the longer, the more DC resistance, the more inductance, the more distributed capacitance, the easier it is to test and examine claims.
Good luck and I'm looking forward to seeing your testing. I'll be posting another video myself soon.

Yes, considerable effort goes into making capacitors as non-inductive as possible. Think about the tiny capacitors and inductors in a cellphone! Operating at several gigaHz frequencies, even the inductance of a short straight trace on the printed circuit board is significant.

Here is how I plan to take the bitch out of it. ;)   14ga, can spit it down the middle to get my 2 conductors and lay it out with ease and increase the capacitance with more surface area between turns. The wire with insulation is 1/16th in and looking at it closer on the profile the insulation looks to be about 1/64th in one either side so still 1/32 spacing between copper to copper.

Right out of the package its 35 turns and if i split the pair and bifi them the dia will grow some as it is 8.5in in dia right out of the package and turns will increase. Not double, i know, will see. I got this some time ago and now is a good time to use it. Thats what I bought it for.



Mags.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 15, 2017, 05:14:00 PM
Yes.  Probably the best would be square profile enamel wire. Also comes in a rectangular kind also. That would increase surface area proximity between windings.  In Telsas drawing of the series bifi is seems to show some heavy insulation, but that doesnt change the fact that it could be better.

Mags

Exactly!

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 15, 2017, 05:23:19 PM
I was referring to your reply to my post about resistance on that and you said "exactly Mags"  Ill look it up if need be.

On what you quoted me on above, Im just relaying what Tesla says in the pat on electromagnets.  The inductance is ignored by the input and the only current limiting factor over time is the coils resistance. So it was the resistance part that you agreed with me on that the currents through a non inductive resistor has no delay in reaching max current V/R. Soo, if Teslas claim is correct then if we pulse the bifi coil, the only thing the input sees is the resistance and if the current reaches max instantly then what of the magnetic field it generated?  Its a short read. So why not investigate THAT claim?  ;)

Mags
OK, I see what you mean now. It's a good question but difficult to answer experimentally. I'll see what I can do.
But you have to remember that there are different kinds of "non inductive resistors". There are wirewound resistors that use special windings like hairpin bifilar and Ayrton-Perry, whose magnetic fields do exist but cancel in the bulk due to the proximity of the windings carrying currents in opposite directions. There are carbon composition resistors that have no windings at all. There are flat resistors with special partial conductive materials that also have no windings at all.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 15, 2017, 05:24:29 PM
ok,below is my bifilar coil.
It is made from heavy gauge rectangular ali enameled wire-so the winds sit nice and neat together.

I am just running an AC current through it,via my SG-so very low powered.

But here is the kicker,after a quick 10 minutes of testing.

The voltage generated across the sniffer coil,is in phase with the voltage across the bifilar coil,and not in phase with the current through the bifilar coil. The current through the bifilar coil is 90* out of phase with both the voltage across the bifilar and sniffer coils  :o

Tomorrow i will wind a single layer coil of the same amount of turns,and see if it is the same.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 15, 2017, 05:24:52 PM
Mags:
(no bitch)

BITCH !!

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2017, 05:25:48 PM
And... by the way... capacitors take time to build an electric field and charge up to a given voltage, and inductors take time to build a magnetic field and pass a given current. Nothing happens instantaneously.

http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/inductor/lr-circuits.html (http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/inductor/lr-circuits.html)

I understand that. But with a bifi, is it different than what you posted above. His pat clearly states differently than you quote above. Like I said, its a very quick read. So lets test his claim. ;D Or is it your opinion that he was terribly mistaken as you have read it already and took note of the claim? Just askin.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 15, 2017, 05:26:43 PM
On what you quoted me on above, Im just relaying what Tesla says in the pat on electromagnets.  The inductance is ignored by the input and the only current limiting factor over time is the coils resistance. So it was the resistance part that you agreed with me on that the currents through a non inductive resistor has no delay in reaching max current V/R. Soo, if Teslas claim is correct then if we pulse the bifi coil, the only thing the input sees is the resistance and if the current reaches max instantly then what of the magnetic field it generated?  Its a short read. So why not investigate THAT claim?  ;)

You are missing the key point here.  Tesla states in the patent that at the right AC excitation frequency the bifilar coil (or any coil) will appear as a pure resistance.  This is where the coil is modeled as a series LC circuit.  And we know that when you excite a series LC circuit with a pure sine wave that the series LC circuit looks like the wire resistance only because at the right AC excitation frequency the reactance of the inductance and the capacitance cancel each other out.

So if you pulse a bifilar coil, this is not the same as pure sine wave excitation at the resonant frequency, and the "wire resistance only" statement does not apply.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 15, 2017, 05:27:04 PM
Brad: Your wirewound cement resistor probably has significant inductance too!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 15, 2017, 05:34:13 PM
The use of the words "in theory" suggests that you haven't tested the idea you are contemplating......  you are fishing for ideas before you present your own....LOL....  There is only one way to accomplish this task, and as a requirement one must embrace an alternative form of induction, one which does not result in the inductor's opposition to change mechanism being triggered.

You are not even close and I am not fishing for anything.

I am not going to answer the question either, and would ask those that "know", who are not of the self appointed elite to not answer the question.  A select few of you have been playing with coils, parroting and preaching the gospel for over 30 years. You have no plan, for the near-instant magnetic field generation in a coil, but you'd like us to think you do......If you had a working concept, with your experience, and this knowledge, you could write your own ticket!

Try thinking it out and coming up with an answer instead of looking for trouble.  The point in asking the question is to get you to think, and I think that you are going in that direction which is good.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2017, 05:34:54 PM
OK, I see what you mean now. It's a good question but difficult to answer experimentally. I'll see what I can do.
But you have to remember that there are different kinds of "non inductive resistors". There are wirewound resistors that use special windings like hairpin bifilar and Ayrton-Perry, whose magnetic fields do exist but cancel in the bulk due to the proximity of the windings carrying currents in opposite directions. There are carbon composition resistors that have no windings at all. There are flat resistors with special partial conductive materials that also have no windings at all.

ok we cool.  I know the test will have to be developed. Im imagining that a pulse train on a normal coil will show the current build delay due to inductance and if Tesla is correct the bifi should show instant or even say a much shorter delay due to inductance. It will be interesting.

Mags

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 15, 2017, 05:37:41 PM
I understand that. But with a bifi, is it different than what you posted above. His pat clearly states differently than you quote above. Like I said, its a very quick read. So lets test his claim. ;D Or is it your opinion that he was terribly mistaken as you have read it already and took note of the claim? Just askin.

Mags

No, I think you are misinterpreting the physical situation. As MH has said, the inductive and capacitive reactances work to cancel at a specific frequency. They still exist! That is, the magnetic field of the coil and the electric field of the capacitance still exist but when combined at the right frequency they make the coil "look like" it has only the ohmic resistance during the AC oscillation. A 'coil for electromagnets' wouldn't be much good if it did not have a magnetic field, would it? And it takes time for a magnetic field to build, it does not happen instantly, except maybe in superconductors ("instantly" still being limited by the speed of light). In the bifilar coil or any coil at its resonant frequency, you have an exchange of energy between the magnetic field and the electric field and if this happens at the right timing, it looks like there is no impedance. But if you could monitor either the magnetic field or the electric field you would still see them growing and shrinking, with each cycle of the stimulating AC current.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 15, 2017, 05:42:09 PM
Brad: Your wirewound cement resistor probably has significant inductance too!

Ah yes
Will replace that with a carbon one tomorrow,and retry.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 15, 2017, 05:45:26 PM
But you "made" it look way way worse than the actual outcome. Way worse. If you made that mistake working at a law firm you would be fired. By making it look that bad why would anyone in their right mind even try for themselves once they innocently take in your concocted results as 'fact', that are sooo far of it isnt even funny anymore.

I am not the bogeyman so stop the demonizing right now.  I gave you my explanation and you are not going to ignore it.  I did not "concoct" anything, period.

Here is your takeaway:  It looks like with any bifilar coil that you work with on your bench, to sustain a very small amount of energy in the resonant cavity, you have to continuously burn off a very large amount of power in the wire resistance relative to the resonant cavity energy.

Now, that is likely to be true for anybody's bifilar coil, period.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: gyulasun on April 15, 2017, 05:55:30 PM


Also let's use Conrad's numbers again to look at the series bifilar coil a different way:

34 microhenries, 49 picofarads of self-capacitance

Let's just say that a reasonable peak-to-peak voltage for the self-resonating coil is 400 volts.

So the capacitive energy is 0.98 microjoules.
 

You calculated 0.98 uJ (microjoule) capacitive energy in a 49 pF capacitor when this cap has 400 V across it
as you defined in your example.

My calculation gives 3.92 uJ (microjoule). 

Quote
  Now, I am going to make an apples and oranges comparison here.  Let's assume the inductor
is pulsed at a low duty cycle in some kind of pulse circuit such that the average power dissipation from
the 10-ohm coil is low and not an issue, and the peak current through the coil is 400 milliamperes.

So the inductive energy is 2.72 mircojoules.

Well, in this apples and oranges comparison, the two energy levels are pretty comparable and it certainly
doesn't look like a gnat sitting on the back of an elephant.  However, there is one caveat. 
If the coil is functioning in some kind of pulse circuit the self-capacitance is not really there, there is
no real self-resonance taking place. 

I think you mean pulsing a bifilar coil at a low enough frequency well away from its self-resonant
frequency, right? If yes, then this mode of operation is not comparable to the circumstances
defined in Tesla's patent.   

And there is no sense to compare 2.72 uJ energy in the coil to 0.98 uJ energy in the capacitor (this latter
energy is 3.92 uJ by my calculation), albeit this certainly fits to your apples to oranges comparison.

By the way, is there any sense for making such apple-orange comparisons?

This question arises because in your next text you introduce another example where the self-resonance
voltage across a coil is 40 Vpp and then you compare this 0.0098 uJ energy to another coil pulsed with
a low duty cycle 400 mA peak current that creates 2.72 uJ energy... 

Quote
Finally, one last kick at the napkin.
If the self-resonance is say 40 volts peak-to-peak, then the energy stored in the self-capacitance
is 0.0098 microjoules.  And the energy in the coll at 400 milliamperes is 2.72 microjoules.
In this apples and oranges comparison the inductive energy is 277 times the capacitive energy. 

It is okay that you can compare apples to oranges as you wish but such comparisons are good fun
for some people but surely not scientific at all.

I am not nit-picking with you, no offense intended at all, simply trying to find sense in some of your posts
and / or trying to correct mistakes other readers here may not recognise and from your posts they may remain
with the bad impression: a bifilar coil as per the Tesla patent is good for nothing.
And no, I will not answer your would-be next question: what is the advantage of using a bifilar coil...  lol

Gyula
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Grumage on April 15, 2017, 06:04:57 PM
 ;)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2017, 06:10:57 PM
You are missing the key point here.  Tesla states in the patent that at the right AC excitation frequency the bifilar coil (or any coil) will appear as a pure resistance.  This is where the coil is modeled as a series LC circuit.  And we know that when you excite a series LC circuit with a pure sine wave that the series LC circuit looks like the wire resistance only because at the right AC excitation frequency the reactance of the inductance and the capacitance cancel each other out.

So if you pulse a bifilar coil, this is not the same as pure sine wave excitation at the resonant frequency, and the "wire resistance only" statement does not apply.

He doesnt 'state' exactly what you quote in bold.  anyway....

Ok, so if it has to be the right freq, then what happens when we apply a dc input, pulse long, short, indefinitely on, what will happen when the current is applied? Is the coil not going to take the easy way upward in current at its resonant freq?  If the pulse were very short, AND he claims that the inductance is "neutralized" due to the capacitance mod, Why would the inductance at resonance be neutralized, but a pulse of dc cause the coil not to follow the upward 1/4 cycle of its resonant freq?

He does state that the the coil secures a capacity sufficient enough to neutralize the self induction. So it sounds to me like the capacity is sufficient enough to ignore the inductance with a pulse.

Its like this... If his claim is that the capacitance change, due to only the differential voltage difference in adjacent turns vs a normal winding, neutralizes the inductance, why would we be concerned that the inductance is neutralized only if it were driven by a particular freq? Like I get what you are saying, but what is the point of bringing up the neutralization due to the capacitance mod of a series bifi if it didnt mean anything and really doesnt need to be said? Resonance wasnt a new idea and was well known how to achieve it. He isnt making the claim on a resonance basis that had been understood for some time, as if it were new and he is describing the process of what happens to the inductance at only a particular freq. The claim is that the change in capacitance differential voltage due to the bifi winding vs normal causes the inductance to be neutralized. That is the claim. His 'claims are always at the bottom of the descriptions. 

We cannot compare this to a coil in parallel to an outside capacitance. Adding a capacitor as in a typical lc, a pulsed input would be mostly ignored by the coil and the cap would take on the pulse. And how fast does that cap take that pulse? Pretty darn fast. But that does nothing for the coil when considering we are looking for the possibility of a current 'through the coil' when the pulse is applied, not to just initially to an added cap of an LC.  And Im thinking he is saying what I have been explaining here. will see.

Mags



This is the claim of which is usually put after the description, and in a few different ways of saying it to cover his ass.. That is the claim Im referring to.



" A coil for electric apparatus the adjacent convolutions of which form parts of the circuit between which there exists a potential difference sufficient to secure in the coil a capacity capable of neutralizing its self-induction, as hereinbefore described."
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 15, 2017, 06:15:29 PM
You calculated 0.98 uJ (microjoule) capacitive energy in a 49 pF capacitor when this cap has 400 V across it
as you defined in your example.

My calculation gives 3.92 uJ (microjoule). 

I think you mean pulsing a bifilar coil at a low enough frequency well away from its self-resonant
frequency, right? If yes, then this mode of operation is not comparable to the circumstances
defined in Tesla's patent.   

And there is no sense to compare 2.72 uJ energy in the coil to 0.98 uJ energy in the capacitor (this latter
energy is 3.92 uJ by my calculation), albeit this certainly fits to your apples to oranges comparison.

By the way, is there any sense for making such apple-orange comparisons?

This question arises because in your next text you introduce another example where the self-resonance
voltage across a coil is 40 Vpp and then you compare this 0.0098 uJ energy to another coil pulsed with
a low duty cycle 400 mA peak current that creates 2.72 uJ energy... 

It is okay that you can compare apples to oranges as you wish but such comparisons are good fun
for some people but surely not scientific at all.

I am not nit-picking with you, no offense intended at all, simply trying to find sense in some of your posts
and / or trying to correct mistakes other readers here may not recognise and from your posts they may remain
with the bad impression: a bifilar coil as per the Tesla patent is good for nothing.
And no, I will not answer your would-be next question: what is the advantage of using a bifilar coil...  lol

Gyula

Note that I said 400 volts peak-to-peak so I get the 0.98 microjoules from 200 volts.

The point of the exercise was just to try and get some kind of intrinsic feeling for what the bifilar coil's numbers and behaviour would be like in the real world.  Sure, I even stretched it to the point of breaking away from the Tesla patent and talked about pulsing the coil.  People are nearly obsessed with pulsing coils around here!  Like something like if you pulse the coil for say 50 milliseconds and you play with the timebase and gain and offset of your scope display you might see tiny bits of resonant ringing at the start and end of the pulse that you can trace back to the self-resonance of the coil.

Quote
And no, I will not answer your would-be next question: what is the advantage of using a bifilar coil...  lol

Sort of reminds me of this:   :)

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-alaska-bridge-idUSKCN0SI00120151024 (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-alaska-bridge-idUSKCN0SI00120151024)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2017, 06:33:32 PM
ok,below is my bifilar coil.
It is made from heavy gauge rectangular ali enameled wire-so the winds sit nice and neat together.

I am just running an AC current through it,via my SG-so very low powered.

But here is the kicker,after a quick 10 minutes of testing.

The voltage generated across the sniffer coil,is in phase with the voltage across the bifilar coil,and not in phase with the current through the bifilar coil. The current through the bifilar coil is 90* out of phase with both the voltage across the bifilar and sniffer coils  :o

Tomorrow i will wind a single layer coil of the same amount of turns,and see if it is the same.


Brad

Nice. Can you show a closeup of the wire? I was just talking about square wire. Also could you measure the capacitance between the windings? Separated of course not in series connection. Just interested to see what you get.with that wire with more close proximity surface area.  Its gota be more than conrad had with the insulation and round wire. Not putting his effort down, just to see if you get better capacitance with what you got.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2017, 06:52:29 PM
Silly question time.

Does the C need to be "pre charged" for it to cancel the L?

Does the applied voltage to the bifi pre charge the C before current flow?

This is what I was trying to explain in my understanding of the difference between a typical LC and a series bifi....

Like if we have a cap and coil in parallel and apply an ac input of the proper freq to ring, the induction is not ignored or even neutralized as tesla claims of the series bifi. The induction is there and functioning just as it should. If a pulse input is applied to the LC, the cap will charge fast and the inductor will impede the pulse. Then the cap will discharge into the inductor and ring till dead or till the next pulse. This is where Teslas claim is different. He is basically saying the capacitance 'in' the series bifi will take on charge ignoring the inductance, or as he says it is neutralized. So what does that mean for current entering the coil from the initial application of input???  ;) Im thinking it means the coil will build a field either instantly or even much faster than a normal inductor of the same wire and size. Normally we are restricted to particular upper freq limits of inductors as they are low pass filters. But what if that same inductor were able to reach max current much faster or even instantly if the inductance is ignored or neutralized?? What affect would that have on a secondary vs a slow climb with an inductance that only lets the current rise in the pri over time?

So the 2 are not the same. The LC cap and separate coil are one thing and the bifi is another. The bifi coil takes on current, through the windings to charge the capacitance. And if the inductance is neutralized due to the coils structure capacitance change, then that capacitance should charge as fast as a cap, AND produce a mag field that builds as fast as the bifi cap will take the current from the input. So IM thinking the 2 are different and we will have to see.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2017, 06:53:34 PM
Mags:
(no bitch)

BITCH !!

Yes. Tedious. And nice.  ;D

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2017, 06:54:54 PM
;)

Dang, lets all just get together and have a bifi coil show!   ;D Nice


Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: gyulasun on April 15, 2017, 07:00:44 PM

Note that I said 400 volts peak-to-peak so I get the 0.98 microjoules from 200 volts.


I am surprised by your answer.   Please explain what conversion did you make to get 200 V from 400 V?
I knew you must have entered 200 V into the formula to get 0.98 microjoule
energy in a 49 pF capacitor but now there is another problem...

The moment the voltage level is just say 400 V across a capacitor (i.e. you can measure it in that moment),
then you have to use 400 V in the formula to get the stored energy in that moment.
Such moments always occur in resonant LC circuits whenever all the coil energy has just 'gone' into the
capacitor and the coil has no any magnetic energy left in it.  And the received energy in the capacitor manifests
as a peak to peak voltage across it but you need not convert this to any other voltage value at all, okay?

Gyula
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Grumage on April 15, 2017, 07:06:08 PM
Dang, lets all just get together and have a bifi coil show!   ;D Nice


Mags

Thanks Mags.

That BiFi coil is damaged, overstressed, broke the insulation down.

I would suggest a good coat of Shellac be applied if you're going to use one on an Induction hob....  ;)

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 15, 2017, 07:10:08 PM

My point is unlike you, I have a solution.....smartass...

I have a solution.

So what's your solution?  If you refuse to answer, then what's the point?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 15, 2017, 07:13:18 PM
I am surprised by your answer.   Please explain what conversion did you make to get 200 V from 400 V?
I knew you must have entered 200 V into the formula to get 0.98 microjoule
energy in a 49 pF capacitor but now there is another problem...

The moment the voltage level is just say 400 V across a capacitor (i.e. you can measure it in that moment),
then you have to use 400 V in the formula to get the stored energy in that moment.
Such moments always occur in resonant LC circuits whenever all the coil energy has just 'gone' into the
capacitor and the coil has no any magnetic energy left in it.  And the received energy in the capacitor manifests
as a peak to peak voltage across it but you need not convert this to any other voltage value at all, okay?

Gyula

The model is a self-resonating bifilar coil with a ground reference on one terminal and the other terminal swinging back and forth between +200 and -200 volts.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 15, 2017, 07:18:36 PM
Also could you measure the capacitance between the windings? Separated of course not in series connection. Just interested to see what you get.with that wire with more close proximity surface area.  Its gota be more than conrad had with the insulation and round wire. Not putting his effort down, just to see if you get better capacitance with what you got.

Note that Conrad calculated the capacitance based on the self-resonant frequency and I don't think he made a measurement with the separated windings.  My gut feeling is that the capacitance measured between the separated windings will be in the same ballpark as the calculated capacitance from the self-resonant frequency but I am really not sure.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 15, 2017, 07:42:13 PM

The point....what is it with you and points....there is no point.......you are being informed of my position, you are being informed of the existence of a solution not the demonstration of said solution....

That is so weak-ass and fake-ass, chances are you've got nothing.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2017, 07:52:55 PM
The model is a self-resonating bifilar coil with a ground reference on one terminal and the other terminal swinging back and forth between +200 and -200 volts.

hmmm. In my experience I dont think you will get 400v in the cap if there is only an input swing of 200v this way and 200v that way. Thats like saying a 120vac line will charge a cap to 240v through a bridge rectifier.  And even in an lc, if you have an input of 200vac, 200v this way and 200 v that way, for the cap of the lc to reach 400v would kinda suggest that the lc is ringing at twice the voltage of the input. Ac is only 1 half cycle 'of directional' currents at a time, and the ac voltage rating is that of just a half cycle, whether it is rms or peak value.. Otherwise you seem to be saying that our AC home outlets are a 60v swing this way and a 60v swing that way and thats how we get 120v.  ???

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 15, 2017, 08:01:42 PM
I am in total agreement on the fact that the field collapse generates a current in the same direction of the input that built it. Could someone misinterpret a scope shot, seeing the voltage differential change at the time of input connect then disconnect as a current reversal? Maybe thats the bungle here?

Mags

@Mags,

Pulse by Reed switch, a "Positive Current" DC pulse enters the coil and is stored in a magnetic field. The Reed contacts separate, and a "Negative Current" DC pulse exits the coil in the same direction as the "Positive Pulse" was traveling. Wiring a reverse biased LED between the coil electrodes will produce a flickering LED from the "Negative Current" DC pulse.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 15, 2017, 08:09:23 PM
sigh......

and they call you an authority.....

That's just another non sequitur.  Apparently you have nothing with respect to the question posed to make you think.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 15, 2017, 08:10:25 PM
The watt-hour is NOT A MEASURE OF POWER. And there is no difference between the current leaving the coil in the same direction when power is interrupted, and the current leaving the coil when the power is on, except that the current when power is on may be steady-state, and the current when power is interrupted is decreasing. Your "negative current" is a misnomer.

@Tinselkoala,

Here's the definition of "Watt Hour": A measure of electrical energy equivalent to a power consumption of one watt for one hour.

Why do you keep trying to confuse people?

"Negative Current" is not a misnomer, it's a measure of positive current with reversed polarity. Everyone can understand how I use it in my explanation to Mags above in comment #870.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2017, 08:14:16 PM
The terms flyback, reverse emf, counter emf are largely misinterpreted.  Flyback is a term that comes from the workings of a cathode ray tube, either a tv or an oscilloscope in which a particular function of the circuit that directs the electron beam to 'fly back' very fast to the left side of the screen after completing a slower visible trace from left to right and repeat. Counter emf and reverse emf should be referring to what happens in self induction of an inductor, where the field generated by the input induces an opposition to the input, thus the delay in getting to max current once the input is applied. I was stuck on that for a long time till about 6 or 7 years ago. i freaked out. lol But all of those terms might seem to suggest that the field collapse causes one or all of these functions, but none of them actually apply.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 15, 2017, 08:19:05 PM
The terms flyback, reverse emf, counter emf are largely misinterpreted.  Flyback is a term that comes from the workings of a cathode ray tube, either a tv or an oscilloscope in which a particular function of the circuit that directs the electron beam to 'fly back' very fast to the left side of the screen after completing a slower visible trace from left to right and repeat. Counter emf and reverse emf should be referring to what happens in self induction of an inductor, where the field generated by the input induces an opposition to the input, thus the delay in getting to max current once the input is applied. I was stuck on that for a long time till about 6 or 7 years ago. i freaked out. lol But all of those terms might seem to suggest that the field collapse causes one or all of these functions, but none of them actually apply.

Mags

@Mags,

So what's your take on "Negative Current" imaginary or real?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 15, 2017, 08:22:42 PM
hmmm. In my experience I dont think you will get 400v in the cap if there is only an input swing of 200v this way and 200v that way. Thats like saying a 120vac line will charge a cap to 240v through a bridge rectifier.  And even in an lc, if you have an input of 200vac, 200v this way and 200 v that way, for the cap of the lc to reach 400v would kinda suggest that the lc is ringing at twice the voltage of the input. Ac is only 1 half cycle 'of directional' currents at a time, and the ac voltage rating is that of just a half cycle, whether it is rms or peak value.. Otherwise you seem to be saying that our AC home outlets are a 60v swing this way and a 60v swing that way and thats how we get 120v.  ???

Mags

Magluvin, the above is a pure gratuitous BS posting and you damn well know it.  I never said anything about charging a cap to 400 volts.  And then you do some nonsensical rambling in an attempt to "prove" me wrong.

You are falling into your serious character flaw trap like a fly stuck on flypaper yet again.  That is just a pure BS posting where in your mind you are going to try to pick apart every posting I make and find a flaw in it.  Well, you just exposed your serious character flaw with a nonsensical BS posting.

Get your act together right now and act like a decent self-respecting human being instead of some creep that is going to make posting after posting with some ridiculous negative spin about me like some psycho stalker.

Do you remember teaming up with Synchro1 for about one full year and harassing me and insulting me day in and day out without end?  Your behaviour was the WORST behaviour on a forum that I have ever seen from anyone in my life.  And you aren't going to start again with examples like that completely nonsensical posting shown above.

Get your act together.  You are not going to stalk me on this thread.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 15, 2017, 08:27:25 PM
@Tinselkoala,

This is a quote from you:

"The watt-hour is NOT A MEASURE OF POWER".

Do think posting this kind of rubbish makes you look smart?

6 volts at 1 amp for 10 minutes equals a watt hour. Got it?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 15, 2017, 08:30:23 PM
Magluvin, the above is a pure gratuitous BS posting and you damn well know it.  I never said anything about charging a cap to 400 volts.  And then you do some nonsensical rambling in an attempt to "prove" me wrong.

You are falling into your serious character flaw trap like a fly stuck on flypaper yet again.  That is just a pure BS posting where in your mind you are going to try to pick apart every posting I make and find a flaw in it.  Well, you just exposed your serious character flaw with a nonsensical BS posting.

Get your act together right now and act like a decent self-respecting human being instead of some creep that is going to make posting after posting with some ridiculous negative spin about me like some psycho stalker.

Do you remember teaming up with Sychho1 for about one full year and harassing me and insulting me day in and day out without end?  Your behaviour was the WORST behaviour on a forum that I have ever seen from anyone in my life.  And you aren't going to start again with examples like that completely nonsensical posting shown above.

Get your act together.  You are not going to stalk me on this thread.

MileHigh

@Milehigh,

Get off his back. Mags is spotlight brilliant compared to your half dead firefly for brain power.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 15, 2017, 08:36:38 PM
@Milehigh,

Get off his back. Mags is spotlight brilliant compared to your half dead firefly for brain power.

I think we are all hoping that your ship is sailing soon.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 15, 2017, 08:41:20 PM
I think we are all hoping that your ship is sailing soon.
@Milehigh,

How the hell can you pretend there's any way you can help evostars with your seven year history compulsive, psychpathic bigotry towards Tesla's serial bifilar coil. You couldn't even solve a basic inductance problem any High School sophomore could handle with little difficulty.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 15, 2017, 09:21:26 PM
@Mags,

Pulse by Reed switch, a DC pulse current pulse enters the coil and is stored in a magnetic field. The Reed contacts separate, and a DC current pulse exits the coil in the same direction as the original current pulse was travelling. Wiring a reverse biased LED between the coil electrodes will produce a flickering LED from the DC current pulse.

There, I fixed that for you.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 15, 2017, 09:28:21 PM
@Tinselkoala,

Here's the definition of "Watt Hour": A measure of electrical energy equivalent to a power consumption of one watt for one hour.

Why do you keep trying to confuse people?

"Negative Current" is not a misnomer, it's a measure of positive current with reversed polarity. Everyone can understand how I use it in my explanation to Mags above in comment #870.

Do you actually understand the difference between POWER and ENERGY? Apparently you do not. Here's what you said:

1 watt hour of power generates 1 Tesla of magnetic force in a coil of 1 Henry of inductance. How come no one could answer this question?



The Watt-Hour is NOT A MEASURE OF POWER..... can't you get that through your head? Now that you have googled the definition THAT AGREES WITH ME....


And "Everyone" by now understands that you are a blowhard troll who would rather use his own (incorrect) definitions of common words instead of admitting he is wrong.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 15, 2017, 09:36:30 PM
@Tinselkoala,

This is a quote from you:

"The watt-hour is NOT A MEASURE OF POWER".

Do think posting this kind of rubbish makes you look smart?

6 volts at 1 amp for 10 minutes equals a watt hour. Got it?

The Watt-hour is NOT A MEASURE OF POWER.  It is a measure of ENERGY.  Look it up again, since you apparently cannot even remember your own googling.

@Tinselkoala,

Here's the definition of "Watt Hour": A measure of electrical energy equivalent to a power consumption of one watt for one hour.

Why do you keep trying to confuse people?

You are the one who is confused, as everyone reading here can see for themselves in your own words.

6 volts x 1 amp = 6 watts. 6 watts = 6 Joules of ENERGY per second. 6 Joules of ENERGY per second x 60 seconds/minute x 10 minutes = 3600 JOULES of ENERGY. 1 Watt-hour = 3600 JOULES of ENERGY,  so at least you got that right.  ENERGY, not POWER.

GOT IT?

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 15, 2017, 09:41:29 PM
@Milehigh,

Get off his back. Mags is spotlight brilliant compared to your half dead firefly for brain power.

Preserved for posterity. MH and Mags are conducting a rational discussion, and you are just slinging insults, mistaken usage of terms, and already soundly disproven claims.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 15, 2017, 09:45:48 PM
@Milehigh,

How the hell can you pretend there's any way you can help evostars with your seven year history compulsive, psychpathic bigotry towards Tesla's serial bifilar coil. You couldn't even solve a basic inductance problem any High School sophomore could handle with little difficulty.


Do you really think MH, or I, or Mags or TinMan or anyone else with the correct knowledge cannot solve a basic induction problem USING THE CORRECT TERMS and QUANTITIES involved? You are truly hilarious. You get another ROFL for that.

If "any High School sophomore" made the kind of howlers you have been making here, she would be sent back at least a grade, or made to review her pre-calculus algebra and analytic geometry after class at least.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 15, 2017, 09:54:25 PM

Properly identifying and identifying with the problem introduces us to the one and only viable solution to the problem.  The problem manifest through the self induction, the wise knew/know, that the solution to the problem is to be found in a proper understanding of self induction, its relation to relation to capacity, and their combined relation to frequency, not as absolutes but constantly modifying variables.  This line of thinking leads one to begin to consider all frequencies as being the resonant frequency....


The authorities have us focusing on absolutes and not parameter variations.  The excuse is we are too stupid to think dynamically, we should stay in the mindset of children to be  brainwashed and think only about static components and parasitic/proximity associations.....a real waste of time in a world where nothing ever stands still.   We are instructed to view systems which are  fundamentally inductive and capacitive, oscillators in the truest sense of the term, as either or....This flawed logic prohibits us from recognizing the oscillator, and more importantly, we never become aware of true role capacitance plays in relation to and within said oscillator. 


Faraday's name is forever tied to capacity....should have been a hint...but no one caught on....  The coulomb and its relation to current....should have been a hint but no one caught on there either....

Anyone can perform their own experiments and if they understand the basics, they can draw valid conclusions from properly performed experiments. The "Authorities" are not preventing anyone from doing that. But the Real World of reality will only allow correct and consistent conclusions actually to work.

"It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong." - Richard P. Feynman

And Quantum Electrodynamics (QED), of which our electronics rules, definitions and "laws" form a subset, is the most experimentally and practically tested, precise and consistent theory that Humankind has ever evolved. The "authorities" whoever they are, are not trying to "prevent" anyone from replacing it with a better theory-- they cannot. But any replacement not only has to make predictions that agree with QED, but must be as accurate or more accurate, as precise or more precise, and make experimentally confirmed predictions that are not already covered by QED.

Quote
Faraday's name is forever tied to capacity....should have been a hint...but no one caught on....  The coulomb and its relation to current....should have been a hint but no one caught on there either....

And who but those "Authorities" were responsible for assigning those names to the quantities concerned?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 15, 2017, 09:56:16 PM


Do you really think MH, or I, or Mags or TinMan or anyone else with the correct knowledge cannot solve a basic induction problem USING THE CORRECT TERMS and QUANTITIES involved? You are truly hilarious. You get another ROFL for that.

If "any High School sophomore" made the kind of howlers you have been making here, she would be sent back at least a grade, or made to review her pre-calculus algebra and analytic geometry after class at least.

@Tinselkoala,

You sleuthed up the "Henrad" and "Farey" Holmes! Nice detective work!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 15, 2017, 09:58:18 PM
@Tinselkoala,

You sluthed up the "Henrad" and "Farey" Holmes!

Your brain needs more oxygen. Why don't you go out and play in the street for a while?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 15, 2017, 10:09:39 PM
Your brain needs more oxygen. Why don't you go out and play in the street for a while?

@Tinselkoala,

Acting like you knew something and then set out to deceive everyone is a lot less flattering then just admitting to your ignorance.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2017, 10:48:49 PM
Magluvin, the above is a pure gratuitous BS posting and you damn well know it.  I never said anything about charging a cap to 400 volts.  And then you do some nonsensical rambling in an attempt to "prove" me wrong.

You are falling into your serious character flaw trap like a fly stuck on flypaper yet again.  That is just a pure BS posting where in your mind you are going to try to pick apart every posting I make and find a flaw in it.  Well, you just exposed your serious character flaw with a nonsensical BS posting.

Get your act together right now and act like a decent self-respecting human being instead of some creep that is going to make posting after posting with some ridiculous negative spin about me like some psycho stalker.

Do you remember teaming up with Synchro1 for about one full year and harassing me and insulting me day in and day out without end?  Your behaviour was the WORST behaviour on a forum that I have ever seen from anyone in my life.  And you aren't going to start again with examples like that completely nonsensical posting shown above.

Get your act together.  You are not going to stalk me on this thread.

MileHigh

Well someone needs to keep an eye out for your 'mistakes'(your words) as you certainly put them out there like they are golden. Here is the issue. You make lots of these kind of mistakes. And you do admit to most of them i have to say. But sometimes it just quirks me as you trying to be the teacher in the group but if these mistakes are not corrected then it is you that are wasting peoples time with bad info. You should check double check and recheck before posting or some will take notice of the error and point it out. Ats it.

I have to read back on the 400v thing as I went by Gyulas post to you for that info assuming it was correct, usually Gyula is on point. Should have checked and rechecked first myself. ;) Sorry if I was wrong.  See What I was doing there? I was kickin my ass. ;D

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2017, 10:51:07 PM

Properly identifying and identifying with the problem introduces us to the one and only viable solution to the problem.  The problem manifest through the self induction, the wise knew/know, that the solution to the problem is to be found in a proper understanding of self induction, its relation to relation to capacity, and their combined relation to frequency, not as absolutes but constantly modifying variables.  This line of thinking leads one to begin to consider all frequencies as being the resonant frequency....


The authorities have us focusing on absolutes and not parameter variations.  The excuse is we are too stupid to think dynamically, we should stay in the mindset of children to be  brainwashed and think only about static components and parasitic/proximity associations.....a real waste of time in a world where nothing ever stands still.   We are instructed to view systems which are  fundamentally inductive and capacitive, oscillators in the truest sense of the term, as either or....This flawed logic prohibits us from recognizing the oscillator, and more importantly, we never become aware of true role capacitance plays in relation to and within said oscillator. 


Faraday's name is forever tied to capacity....should have been a hint...but no one caught on....  The coulomb and its relation to current....should have been a hint but no one caught on there either....

Thanks.  Ill let it sink in a bit see if I can figure it out.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2017, 11:04:39 PM
Ok, here is a couple pics. First is the speaker wire separated into individual wires. 50 ft ea.

The next pic is making the use of a spinning shop stool to turn table the windings on the disk. The disk is 19in dia and didnt expect the coil to be that small in dia, but didnt want to get to the end of the wind and poss go off the edge. Big headroom to surly avoid a redo. In the second pic you can see I made 4 black lines of contact cement and tape strips every so many turns to hod the wire to the board then just did the larger tape strips to further hold it down. I may want to reuse this wire to test a cylinder coil later and didnt want to gook up the wire with glue. its tight and firm, ooo baby, and the insulation is more rubbery than most wires are and it whant to kinda stick to the other turns. Good for these tests.

The roll out of the package was 2.75in ID and 8.5 OD and the bifi is 1.5ID and 11in OD

7nf between individual wires.
.5mh series connection
.25ohm series connection with meter zero out to eliminate test lead resistance
59 total turns of 14 awg wire
100ft total wire including pigtails

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2017, 11:29:56 PM
Just did a regular LC sim of the component values i measured and it says about 85khz.  ;D So to me, that capacitance is not insignificant an any way shape or form. Some dc to dc supllies can run at that freq and we are not in the mhz or even quadra digigihz beyond reality as some here might say it could be due to the insignificant capacitance of a bifi. ;) So we have a regular LC basline to go by without having to build it to compare.

The input was 20v in till peak current and disconnected then pic shot. 


Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2017, 11:40:20 PM
lol. 20v in till max current through a 100ohm resistance, and she sings at 50v. Nice.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2017, 11:55:07 PM
Exactly!

oooo thats a nice pic. ;D Just caught that post. Can get lost in here quick. Quite a few pages since early this morning. We had an old welding machine at work and it was pretty beat with a big knob on the front that physically turned a large magnetic shunt in the open area of the really large square core to adjust the power out. The core was heavily rusted especially at the bottom. But what interested me most was the windings. 2 differnt size of wide strap copper conductors and a third winding of some at least 6ga solid for the pri. But that thing you show there is some serious equipment. Thanks

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 16, 2017, 12:20:41 AM
Well someone needs to keep an eye out for your 'mistakes'(your words) as you certainly put them out there like they are golden. Here is the issue. You make lots of these kind of mistakes. And you do admit to most of them i have to say. But sometimes it just quirks me as you trying to be the teacher in the group but if these mistakes are not corrected then it is you that are wasting peoples time with bad info. You should check double check and recheck before posting or some will take notice of the error and point it out. Ats it.

I have to read back on the 400v thing as I went by Gyulas post to you for that info assuming it was correct, usually Gyula is on point. Should have checked and rechecked first myself. ;) Sorry if I was wrong.  See What I was doing there? I was kickin my ass. ;D

Mags

There are tons and tons and tons of mistakes made on this forum and sometimes some of them are completely and utterly idiotic.  And almost all the time nobody says a single damn thing.  I don't see you going after them and many times you are fully aware of them.  So don't give me your nonsense and get my message loud and clear.  You're are trying to preen and wank and say, "Look boys, I'm going to go after this guy and it's going to be sport."  And I don't make "lots of mistakes."  Get out of your BS spin zone.

Nobody wants your show, conduct yourself like a proper person.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: gyulasun on April 16, 2017, 12:23:42 AM
The model is a self-resonating bifilar coil with a ground reference on one terminal and the other
terminal swinging back and forth between +200 and -200 volts.

Well, then please next time define your examples more precisely on the particulars.

Unfortunately, I have to quote another text from you:
You are missing the key point here.  Tesla states in the patent that at the right AC excitation frequency
the bifilar coil (or any coil) will appear as a pure resistance.  This is where the coil is modeled as
a series LC circuit.  And we know that when you excite a series LC circuit with a pure sine wave that
the series LC circuit looks like the wire resistance only because at the right AC excitation frequency
the reactance of the inductance and the capacitance cancel each other out.

So if you pulse a bifilar coil, this is not the same as pure sine wave excitation at the resonant frequency,
and the "wire resistance only" statement does not apply.


Of course I agree with the first paragraph but not with the second I put in bold. Please explain why the
"wire resistance only" statement does not apply when we are pulsing a bifilar coil?

Gyula
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 16, 2017, 12:33:18 AM
Well, then please next time define your examples more precisely on the particulars.

Unfortunately, I have to quote another text from you:
Of course I agree with the first paragraph but not with the second I put in bold. Please explain why the
"wire resistance only" statement does not apply when we are pulsing a bifilar coil?

Gyula

The frame of reference for the example is Conrad's set of clips.  All of the particulars are there.  I don't think they is any ambiguity in "peak to peak."

You second question is strange, what's up with you?  When you pulse a bifilar coil what happens?  The response of the coil to a voltage pulse comes into play with an L/R time constant and all of that stuff that has been discussed in depth many times.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 16, 2017, 12:41:07 AM
Any experimenter that wants a quick and easy way to try out a cylindrical bifilar coil can simply buy a nice spool of fairly fine gauge speaker wire.  All that you have to do is make the cross connection and voila, you have a nice machine-wound tightly-packed cylindrical bifilar coil to play with.  Preferably it would be on a plastic spool and then you also have the ability to add a core if you want.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: gyulasun on April 16, 2017, 12:47:21 AM
....
You second question is strange, what's up with you?  When you pulse a bifilar coil what happens?  The response of the coil to a voltage pulse comes into play with an L/R time constant and all of that stuff that has been discussed in depth many times.


Well, MileHigh,  can a square wave be considered pulsing a bifilar coil?

Conrad nicely demonstrates in his videos, especially in Part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC84W0PIZoE
when he switches from pure sine wave to square wave at 4 MHz, the bifilar coil nicely responds to
that wave much the same way as it does for the sine wave and of course the output response is sine wave as expected.
It gives pretty good response even to subharmonic (1/3) square wave excitation as well.

Is this still a strange question? 

Gyula
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 16, 2017, 01:24:04 AM
Any experimenter that wants a quick and easy way to try out a cylindrical bifilar coil can simply buy a nice spool of fairly fine gauge speaker wire.  All that you have to do is make the cross connection and voila, you have a nice machine-wound tightly-packed cylindrical bifilar coil to play with.  Preferably it would be on a plastic spool and then you also have the ability to add a core if you want.

But you will get very very small interturn capacitance that way because the conductors are too far apart, even in the finest plastic insulated speaker wire. As you have pointed out, the interturn capacitance is small anyway, even with close-wound enamel insulated magnet wire.

ETA: I just saw Mags's result so maybe. That's a lot of capacitance he reports with his plastic-insulated wire with relatively large interconductor spacing. I get 2.19 nF with the bifilar pancake coil I showed in the first DC resistance test video (between disconnected files) which has 58+58 turns of #27 magnet wire and 661 microHenry when files are serially connected in the TBF manner.  My calculator predicts a resonant frequency of 132 kHz for those values. We shall see, got to take dog to dogpark now.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 16, 2017, 01:57:11 AM
There are tons and tons and tons of mistakes made on this forum and sometimes some of them are completely and utterly idiotic.  And almost all the time nobody says a single damn thing.  I don't see you going after them and many times you are fully aware of them.  So don't give me your nonsense and get my message loud and clear.  You're are trying to preen and wank and say, "Look boys, I'm going to go after this guy and it's going to be sport."  And I don't make "lots of mistakes."  Get out of your BS spin zone.

Nobody wants your show, conduct yourself like a proper person.

Your coming up with 10ohm on conrads coils shows your inexperience with seeing such and making even an approximate determination of the resistance and it is far from showing that you are an authority in this area. Then you say that the difference between 10ohm and .4ohm doesnt make a difference anyway.  Run the sim and see how long it takes for the ring to die down in each example. Its a large difference and your assumption of 10 ohms then posting all the formulas trying to show big issues to prove your view against others views, then yeah, it should be pointed out that you are not producing accurate info in your argument. That 10ohms wastes a lot of energy in the circuit at a very unnecessary and unrealistic rate. 

So maybe, if i have to be blunt, just shedup.

Mags

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 16, 2017, 01:58:35 AM
@Tinselkoala,

Acting like you knew something and then set out to deceive everyone is a lot less flattering then just admitting to your ignorance.

There is nothing in my posts to you that is deceptive or even wrong. It is just too bad for you that the same cannot be said for you. Your deceptions and ignorance are right there in your history of posts, for everyone to see.

And I see that you are trying to push your nonsense on my YT channel as well. Thanks for the thumbs-downs by the way... now I know I'm reaching my Target Audience after all.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 16, 2017, 02:13:52 AM
But you will get very very small interturn capacitance that way because the conductors are too far apart, even in the finest plastic insulated speaker wire. As you have pointed out, the interturn capacitance is small anyway, even with close-wound enamel insulated magnet wire.

ETA: I just saw Mags's result so maybe. That's a lot of capacitance he reports with his plastic-insulated wire with relatively large interconductor spacing. I get 2.19 nF with the bifilar pancake coil I showed in the first DC resistance test video (between disconnected files) which has 58+58 turns of #27 magnet wire and 661 microHenry when files are serially connected in the TBF manner.  My calculator predicts a resonant frequency of 132 kHz for those values. We shall see, got to take dog to dogpark now.

I picked the wire for this some time ago when a RS store was going down for the count. was 29 bux and got 60%off so it was a no brainer. The flatness of the copper should give more surface area proximity than round wire per turn, that was my inspiration for going flat, to increase the capacitance.  Like imagine say 1in wide copper tape or even wider. A nice increase in both capacitance and induction in a similar sized dia with a thin insulation layer between turns.

I feel good with the outcome of the capacitance and the inductance. I was also happy with the 85khz as it clearly shows a decent amount of inductance and capacitance to not only go lower than the mhz range, but i wasnt expecting below 100khz. How many ohms is the series total on your coil?

Mags

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 16, 2017, 02:52:09 AM
Nice. Can you show a closeup of the wire? I was just talking about square wire. Also could you measure the capacitance between the windings? Separated of course not in series connection. Just interested to see what you get.with that wire with more close proximity surface area.  Its gota be more than conrad had with the insulation and round wire. Not putting his effort down, just to see if you get better capacitance with what you got.

Mags

The wire used is from the primary of an old arc welder.
The wire is Ali-not copper.

So,wire size is 2mm x 3.5mm
I have the flat sides(3.5mm) wound against each other-->wire wound vertical you could say.

Values measured for bifilar coil

Capacitance value between the two windings is 1.22nF

Inductance value=EDIT=.06nH

Resistance(with series connection back in place)=.1 ohms

Picture of wire/remains of primary coil below.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 16, 2017, 02:57:21 AM
So,when we say!self resonant frequency!,do we simply keep raising the frequency until maximum voltage amplitude is reached across the coil?

If so,who can calculate what mine should be,using the values given in my last post?.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 16, 2017, 03:13:53 AM
The wire used is from the primary of an old arc welder.
The wire is Ali-not copper.

So,wire size is 2mm x 3.5mm
I have the flat sides(3.5mm) wound against each other-->wire wound vertical you could say.

Values measured for bifilar coil

Capacitance value between the two windings is 1.22nF

Inductance value=.02nH

Resistance(with series connection back in place)=.1 ohms

Picture of wire/remains of primary coil below.


Brad

I get 1.02ghz.

Are you sure on that resistance of .1ohm? Just that I have 100ft of 14ga and it is .25ohm.  Just really looks like some stout wire there and fewer turns than 55 or so i have.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 16, 2017, 03:18:49 AM
So,when we say!self resonant frequency!,do we simply keep raising the frequency until maximum voltage amplitude is reached across the coil?

If so,who can calculate what mine should be,using the values given in my last post?.


Brad

yeah you can do a freq sweep to find it. I use circuit sim to do simple tests like these to help find the freq with very good results. Thats how i found the 1.02ghz for u. it should be right on or close enough to find the area, just incase there is a slight discrepancy in a component value reading that could throw of the sim a bit if the values are not dead on. I like that sim. Simple stuff can be checked quick and reliably. The default circuit is an rlc so i just plug the values and apply power then disconnect and it rings and the res freq result is at the bottom right of the screen.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 16, 2017, 03:49:30 AM
I get 1.02ghz.

Are you sure on that resistance of .1ohm? Just that I have 100ft of 14ga and it is .25ohm.  Just really looks like some stout wire there and fewer turns than 55 or so i have.

Mags

Thats the best i can measure Mags.

If i short my DMM leads together,i get .3 ohms,and across the coil,i get .4ohms.
My DMMs only have a resolution of .1 ohm

So how are we determining the self resonant frequency ?
Keep increasing the frequency until maximum voltage amplitude is reached across the coil?

Bellow is a pic of the two coils together .


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 16, 2017, 03:50:12 AM
I get 1.02ghz.

Are you sure on that resistance of .1ohm? Just that I have 100ft of 14ga and it is .25ohm.  Just really looks like some stout wire there and fewer turns than 55 or so i have.

Mags

When checking very low ohms and I consider 1 ohm pretty low, the connections of the meter leads to the wire really need a strong connection as a lack of solid contact can alter the true value to a higher reading than what it actually is.

Back it the early 90s I bought my first quality multimeter. Wavetek 2030. $329 back then and it seemed to be the only handheld at the time that could go to .01 accuracy. Well in amps and such there are resistors that go to that second decimal in accuracy and the best fluke couldnt read it to that accuracy back then. Still have it. It has a relative buttion that will record and subtract the test lead resistance to zero it out to 0.00 ohms leads shorted.

Other guys in the electronic repair shop didnt believe it would be accurate but IT showed them.

You can find the shorted IC or other component on a circuit board with many ICs and caps on a say 5v line on the board just by using the meter. To be able to read to .01ohm you will be able to track that part down without desoldering everything to isolate that bad part. Not many people know about that.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 16, 2017, 03:53:26 AM
yeah you can do a freq sweep to find it. I use circuit sim to do simple tests like these to help find the freq with very good results. Thats how i found the 1.02ghz for u. it should be right on or close enough to find the area, just incase there is a slight discrepancy in a component value reading that could throw of the sim a bit if the values are not dead on. I like that sim. Simple stuff can be checked quick and reliably. The default circuit is an rlc so i just plug the values and apply power then disconnect and it rings and the res freq result is at the bottom right of the screen.

Mags

Ah,see we were typing at the same time.

If it's 1.02GHz,then were screwed,as my SG only go's to 20 meg.

From last nights quick play,maximum voltage amplitude was reached at a far lower point-around 40KHz ,if i remember correctly.

Time for some testing. Back soon.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 16, 2017, 03:56:16 AM
Thats the best i can measure Mags.

If i short my DMM leads together,i get .3 ohms,and across the coil,i get .4ohms.
My DMMs only have a resolution of .1 ohm

So how are we determining the self resonant frequency ?
Keep increasing the frequency until maximum voltage amplitude is reached across the coil?

Bellow is a pic of the two coils together .


Brad

Yes the voltage on the coil will be highest at resonance.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 16, 2017, 04:06:32 AM
Ah,see we were typing at the same time.

If it's 1.02GHz,then were screwed,as my SG only go's to 20 meg.

From last nights quick play,maximum voltage amplitude was reached at a far lower point-around 40KHz ,if i remember correctly.

Time for some testing. Back soon.


Brad

Your inductance seems quite small compared to mine and TK, if that value is correct at .06nh where I have7nh and tk got around 1 or 2nh. On sim I may be wrong and it may be inaccurate at those freq or what ever. There are online calculators and you can plug in the values and get an answer. It does seem like a huge jump in freq in comparison so maybe we should try another calc to confirm that no.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 16, 2017, 04:15:40 AM
Ok I see you made a correction in the inductance. Here is the sim shot with the update. The res freq is in the lower right.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Bob Smith on April 16, 2017, 04:18:55 AM
Don't know if this helps or not, but fwiw:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRMNKMkj-0E&index=3&list=PL88933A424BCBF5EC
Bob
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 16, 2017, 04:19:03 AM
Your inductance seems very low so that 588mhz range may be correct.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 16, 2017, 04:31:50 AM
I might have expected tks coil to be higher in inductance than mine with twice the no of turns where on the other end, your inductance is far below what either of us have and yours has about half the turns of mine. Its funny how inductance can be odd with diff wire sizes vs no of turns etc. Much harder to gauge by the looks of the coil compared to guessing the resistance value. Weird stuff.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 16, 2017, 04:34:35 AM
Ok,so finding the resonant frequency the old way,seems like quite a task.
So what i did,was to put a diode on the positive input,so as the coil is only being pulsed by the top half(forward direction) of the sine.-->Blue trace =current--yellow =voltage across coil.

I managed to get the coil to ring,and so im guessing this ringing frequency is the resonant frequency of the bifilar coil--Yes?.

Will now try the single wound coil.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 16, 2017, 05:37:49 AM
A couple of scope shots showing voltage across bifilar coil,and voltage across pickup coil.
Second shot showing current through bifilar coil,and voltage across pickup coil.

At this frequency,the voltage across the pickup coil is in phase with voltage across bifilar coil,and not in phase with current through bifilar coil.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 16, 2017, 05:58:35 AM
The below scope shot,is to try and  get the single wound coil to ring-in the same way i did the bifilar.
As you can see,it rings down very quickly.
Tried a frequency sweep,and this was the best result.


Easy to see the bifilar coil rings down a lot more.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 16, 2017, 05:58:45 AM
I picked the wire for this some time ago when a RS store was going down for the count. was 29 bux and got 60%off so it was a no brainer. The flatness of the copper should give more surface area proximity than round wire per turn, that was my inspiration for going flat, to increase the capacitance.  Like imagine say 1in wide copper tape or even wider. A nice increase in both capacitance and induction in a similar sized dia with a thin insulation layer between turns.

I feel good with the outcome of the capacitance and the inductance. I was also happy with the 85khz as it clearly shows a decent amount of inductance and capacitance to not only go lower than the mhz range, but i wasnt expecting below 100khz. How many ohms is the series total on your coil?

Mags

The two bifilar pancake coils measure 3.90 ohms and 661 uH and 2.19 nF,  and 3.90 ohms and 685 uH and 2.20 nF, including the connections. The matching monofilar coil I wound yesterday (bitch!) measures 3.92 ohms and 712 uH. It may have a couple more turns on it than the bifilars, from the looks of it.

Still haven't measured resonant frequency, have been busy with other things this evening.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 16, 2017, 06:05:06 AM
So,when we say!self resonant frequency!,do we simply keep raising the frequency until maximum voltage amplitude is reached across the coil?

If so,who can calculate what mine should be,using the values given in my last post?.


Brad
With 1.22 nF and 0.02 nanoH I get 1.0189 GHz. With 0.06 nH I get 588 MHz.

But I must say those inductance values are implausible, even if you mistakenly connected the coil as a hairpin bifilar instead of a Tesla series bifilar.

Here's an inductance calculator that will show you that even the meter's connecting leads will probably have more inductance than that. You are talking short PC board traces, for that low inductance.

http://www.consultrsr.net/resources/eis/induct5.htm (http://www.consultrsr.net/resources/eis/induct5.htm)

How are you measuring the inductance to be that low?

Your recent scopeshot of the ringing appears to show about 6.2 oscillations in 5 microseconds (2 divisions) which should be a frequency of about 1.24 MHz.

So taking the 1.22 nF capacitance and that frequency and working backwards for inductance, we should have about 13.5 microHenry. Even that seems low to me.  The bifilar coils and the monofilar coil I showed earlier each have inductance of around 700 microHenry. Are you sure we are seeing the coil ringing, and not your probe leads?

http://www.1728.org/resfreq.htm (http://www.1728.org/resfreq.htm)


Are those two traces at 40.5 kHz at the resonant frequency point? (oops sorry I had MHz instead of kHz)

Can you expand the trace of the single winding coil so we can read the frequency from the graticule? At first pass it looks to be a bit higher ( around 2 oscillations in one microsecond)than what you got with the ringing of the other coil ( around 6.2 oscillations in 5 microseconds).
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 16, 2017, 06:09:12 AM
OK,regarding my last post and scope shots of ringing.

Some twat forgot to include the 1 ohm CVR in the single wound coil ring test.  ::)

Below is the amended single wound coil ringing scope shot ,alongside the bifilar coil.

Looks much better now.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 16, 2017, 06:11:35 AM
At this point in time,i have to ask--what exactly are we looking for?

Found so far--> bifilar coil has lower self resonant frequency that that of the single wound coil.

Next is voltage difference between windings for both.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 16, 2017, 07:14:22 AM
Each of my coils have 28 turns,and here is the voltages between turns of each coil

The single wound coil has 4VRMS across it,and starts with a voltage difference of 68mV RMS between the first and second turns (closest to center of coil)
As expected,the voltage increases between turns as we get closer to the outer most two turns.
At the outer two turns,the voltage difference between turns is 244mV RMS.

The bifilar coil has 4.24VRMS across it,and once again,as expected,has an average voltage between turns of 2.12VRMS--varying from 2.08 to 2.14VRMS between turns.

So far,nothing out of the ordinary between the two,except that the bifilar has a lower resonant frequency.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 16, 2017, 07:33:45 AM
At this point I'm not sure that disconnecting the series link and measuring the capacitance between the two disconnected files is giving us the correct answer for the distributed capacitance.

At least I get different answers from measuring this way, and from solving the resonant frequency equation for capacitance using the measured resonant frequency and inductance.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 16, 2017, 07:37:28 AM


 

Here's an inductance calculator that will show you that even the meter's connecting leads will probably have more inductance than that. 

http://www.consultrsr.net/resources/eis/induct5.htm

How are you measuring the inductance to be that low?

Your recent scopeshot of the ringing appears to show about 6.2 oscillations in 5 microseconds (2 divisions) which should be a frequency of about 1.24 MHz.

So taking the 1.22 nF capacitance and that frequency and working backwards for inductance, we should have about 13.5 microHenry. Even that seems low to me.  The bifilar coils and the monofilar coil I showed earlier each have inductance of around 700 microHenry. Are you sure we are seeing the coil ringing, and not your probe leads?

http://www.1728.org/resfreq.htm


Are those two traces at 40.5 MHz at the resonant frequency point?

Can you expand the trace of the single winding coil so we can read the frequency from the graticule? At first pass it looks to be a bit higher ( around 2 oscillations in one microsecond)than what you got with the ringing of the other coil ( around 6.2 oscillations in 5 microseconds).

The end of one winding,returns back to the center,and is connected to the beginning of the other winding.

Quote
You are talking short PC board traces, for that low inductance.

I am using my DMM to measure the inductance value,and the leads are connected to the ends of the series coil pair.

Quote
With 1.22 nF and 0.02 nanoH I get 1.0189 GHz. With 0.06 nH I get 588 MHz.

The capacitance value was taken with the two windings disconnected from one another-as Mags asked.
Once the two windings are joined together(series connected),then would not that capacitance value change?,as no capacitor has there two plates joined together,as the bifilar coil dose.


Added
Ok,went and checked capacitance again.
Bifilar coil has .66nF capacitance,and get this, -(yes,minuse) 50uF when the two windings are hooked in series. So guess we cannot measure capacitance when they are linked together.
So what dose that do or say about our capacitance value when the coils are hooked in series,and we are carrying out tests based around the two windings open circuit capacitance value?.

Inductance still reads .06mH
If i join the two DMM leads together,i get .00--nothing.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 16, 2017, 07:40:15 AM
At this point I'm not sure that disconnecting the series link and measuring the capacitance between the two disconnected files is giving us the correct answer for the distributed capacitance.

At least I get different answers from measuring this way, and from solving the resonant frequency equation for capacitance using the measured resonant frequency and inductance.

Ah,see you were posting as i was typing.
Seems we both think this is the wrong way to go about it.

Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 16, 2017, 08:09:38 AM
OK, here is an example.

One of my TBF pancake coils measures 685 microHenry using my ProsKit inductance meter. When I disconnect the series connection and measure the two files for capacitance I get 2.75 nanoFarads. I have measured the resonant frequency in three different ways (single pulse ringdown, continuous pulsation ringing, and maximum voltage rise during frequency sweep) and get 242.7  kHz each way (within a few 100 Hz). Working the resonant frequency calculation backwards to solve for capacitance using the resonant frequency and the inductance, I get 0.628 nF (627.78 picoFarads) which actually seems more reasonable than the nearly 3 nF value.

The other TBF pancake coil measures 661 uH and the capacitance 2.19 nF. Resonant frequency is 273.2 kHz and solving the equation for capacitance I get 513.43 pF.

Both coils give huge voltage amplification on the resonant ringing. I pulse with a depleted 9V battery and get around 400 v p-p ringing oscillations.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 16, 2017, 08:25:44 AM
For the corresponding monofilar coil I wound yesterday, the measured inductance is 712 uH and the resonant frequency is 1.374 MHz. Solving the equation for capacitance I get 18.8 pF, which is right about the capacitance of my scope probe.

It also gives a good resonant voltage rise of a bit over 300 V from the 9v pulse.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 16, 2017, 08:49:51 AM
The end of one winding,returns back to the center,and is connected to the beginning of the other winding.

I am using my DMM to measure the inductance value,and the leads are connected to the ends of the series coil pair.

The capacitance value was taken with the two windings disconnected from one another-as Mags asked.
Once the two windings are joined together(series connected),then would not that capacitance value change?,as no capacitor has there two plates joined together,as the bifilar coil dose.


Added
Ok,went and checked capacitance again.
Bifilar coil has .66nF capacitance,and get this, -(yes,minuse) 50uF when the two windings are hooked in series. So guess we cannot measure capacitance when they are linked together.
So what dose that do or say about our capacitance value when the coils are hooked in series,and we are carrying out tests based around the two windings open circuit capacitance value?.

Inductance still reads .06mH
If i join the two DMM leads together,i get .00--nothing.


Brad

Ah-hah! The first time you said 0.06 nH.... nanoHenry! So when we worked the equation or did the sim we got the 588 MHz frequency.

Now, with 0.06 mH, or 60 microHenry--- that's a lot more plausible and I believe that a DMM could measure that value, whereas 0.06 nH is not really believable.

So, working the equation again using your frequency (my rough estimate!) of 1.24 MHz from the ringdown, and 60 uH, I get a capacitance of 274.5 pF which is entirely plausible for your coil. (plus your probe of around 20 pF) Call it 250 or 255 pF.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 16, 2017, 09:08:28 AM
Ok,so what would happen if the winding capacitance was increased?
Would our resonant frequency come down in value?

Thought experiment.

If i pull apart say a 1uF cap,and made a transformer from the cap plates,instead of using copper wire--what would be the outcome of that transformer ?

Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 16, 2017, 09:23:56 AM
Ok,so what would happen if the winding capacitance was increased?
Would our resonant frequency come down in value?

As capacitance and/or inductance goes up, resonant frequency goes down. Bigger buckets take longer to fill and empty.

Quote
Thought experiment.

If i pull apart say a 1uF cap,and made a transformer from the cap plates,instead of using copper wire--what would be the outcome of that transformer ?

Brad

I have no idea.


I think the capacitance meters are being fooled by the relatively large inductance of the coils when we measure them that way. I think the meters basically work by creating a LC tank circuit and measuring the resonant frequency of the LC tank, then calculating either inductance or capacitance based on that. SO if the "capacitor" has substantial inductance, the resonant frequency will be lower than expected and so the calculated capacitance value will be higher...and wrong.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 16, 2017, 09:42:06 AM
Preserved for posterity... and evidence.

In Texas we have a name for people who lie and misrepresent and insult others where they cannot respond. 

Don't think you can sneak this vile behaviour past me, Burgess. One day you will have to answer to a higher power.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 16, 2017, 09:44:13 AM
This was a good read,if anyone is interested.


http://coefs.uncc.edu/mnoras/files/2013/03/Transformer-and-Inductor-Design-Handbook_Chapter_17.pdf


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 16, 2017, 09:47:59 AM
Preserved for posterity... and evidence.

In Texas we have a name for people who lie and misrepresent and insult others where they cannot respond.

You can lead a horse to water,but some of them just need shooting-so as they do not consume valuable resources  :D

He seems to fit in well,over at EF  ;)


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 16, 2017, 11:26:07 AM
Preserved for posterity... and evidence.

In Texas we have a name for people who lie and misrepresent and insult others where they cannot respond. 

Don't think you can sneak this vile behaviour past me, Burgess. One day you will have to answer to a higher power.

@Tinselkoala,

You jokers like to fool around, then when you're pinned down on something you're really unknowledgeable about, you continue to act like you're joking to appear like "know-it-alls". Everyone can see you in your nakedness like the "Emperor with no clothes". Why don't you frauds try getting a life?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 16, 2017, 12:01:09 PM

UH!!  WTF!!!

Energetic forum-->not you erfinder.

Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 16, 2017, 12:01:12 PM
You can lead a horse to water,but some of them just need shooting-so as they do not consume valuable resources  :D

He seems to fit in well,over at EF  ;)


Brad

@Tinman,

Maybe Texas will evolve it's own distinct dialect of English like the Australian version you DOSED up!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 16, 2017, 12:07:52 PM
At this point in time,i have to ask the same question as MH
--->what advantage is there at driving the coils/inductors at there resonant frequency?.

The single and bifilar coils seem to behave no differently,other than the bifi having a lower resonant frequency. I would think that is because of the higher voltage between turns,as that is the only difference i can find.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 16, 2017, 12:09:40 PM
@Tinman,

Maybe Texas will evolve it's own distinct dialect of English like the Australian version you DOSED up!

Ah come on synchro--you guys put the steering wheel in the wrong side of the car. ;)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 16, 2017, 12:32:21 PM
At this point in time,i have to ask the same question as MH
--->what advantage is there at driving the coils/inductors at there resonant frequency?.

The single and bifilar coils seem to behave no differently,other than the bifi having a lower resonant frequency. I would think that is because of the higher voltage between turns,as that is the only difference i can find.


Brad

The single wire coil won't ring from a "Shock Charge". You may need a "Make an Instant magnet" trick.

Oh boy! Can't wait for the TK's next thriller Ohmic resistance measurement video with his mighty digital multi meter!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 16, 2017, 12:58:56 PM
"Coil for Electromagnets." means "Coil for Electro-Magnetizing."

 "The Lorentz force is the combination of electric and magnetic force on a point charge due to electromagnetic fields".

The U.S.A. has two North Korean Satellites passing over the country that can deliver an "Electro Magnetic Pulse" that has the deadly force to kill 90% of Americans from proximate consequences. This weapons technology is a direct descendent of "Tesla's Serial Bifilar Pancake Coil", persistently hidden from view by snake oil videos from this conceited agent of disinformation. Tinselkoala is just a "Cheap Carnival Huckster"! He has no right to be on Youtube.

Send a PM to Stephan Hartiberlin to help me throw this Bum out!

All insults removed from this post.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 16, 2017, 02:18:06 PM
The single wire coil won't ring from a "Shock Charge". You may need a "Make an Instant magnet" trick.

Oh boy! Can't wait for the TK's next thriller Ohmic resistance measurement video with his mighty digital multi meter!

This more of your own made up stuff synchro ?

Do you mean,a pulse of high current ?.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 16, 2017, 02:21:01 PM
This more of your own made up stuff synchro ?

Do you mean,a pulse of high current ?.


Brad

That's better. I'm restoring the insults to the comment on my "Unified Field Theory" firewall thread.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Grumage on April 16, 2017, 03:01:40 PM
Would I be correct in thinking that these coils/transformers were specifically designed for DC pulses?

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 16, 2017, 03:06:47 PM
Would I be correct in thinking that these coils/transformers were specifically designed for DC pulses?

Cheers Graham.

@Grummage,

Unfortunately the Tesla patent was redacted by the "War Department, and the pulse portion removed.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 16, 2017, 03:08:09 PM
Would I be correct in thinking that these coils/transformers were specifically designed for DC pulses?

Cheers Graham.

Are you referring to the bifilar coil grum?


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 16, 2017, 03:27:28 PM

Yes...

The scrapyard we visited to view an early Tesla Electro-magnet in 62' was guarded by an old guy who told us the magnet fired accidently once while it was on it's side, and knocked a junk car off the top of a pile into a neighbor's yard at a distance of maybe fifty yards. We were not permitted to photograph it.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 16, 2017, 03:41:25 PM
If evostars aimed his pancake coil at at cutlery rack, instead of measuring voltage, he'd be as traumatized as I was when I first tried it. The NC EMP Sats are atomic warheads in the Ionosphere that are designed to implode a Magnetic Tsunami from the Earth's magnetic field.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 16, 2017, 03:51:29 PM
The scrapyard we visited to view an early Tesla Electro-magnet in 62' was guarded by an old guy who told us the magnet fired accidently once while it was on it's side, and knocked a junk car off the top of a pile into a neighbor's yard at a distance of maybe fifty yards. We were not permitted to photograph it.

Oh-so now we have electromagnets that repel steel cars
 ::)

Where or how do you keep coming up with this stuff synchro lol.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 16, 2017, 04:07:28 PM

Well, MileHigh,  can a square wave be considered pulsing a bifilar coil?

Conrad nicely demonstrates in his videos, especially in Part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC84W0PIZoE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC84W0PIZoE)
when he switches from pure sine wave to square wave at 4 MHz, the bifilar coil nicely responds to
that wave much the same way as it does for the sine wave and of course the output response is sine wave as expected.
It gives pretty good response even to subharmonic (1/3) square wave excitation as well.

Is this still a strange question? 

Gyula

Yes it's a strange question because it was a discussion about Magluvin's mistaken belief that "since a series bifilar coil can look like the wire resistance only, then I can pulse a series bifilar coil and get an instant magnetic field without having to energize the inductor."  It wasn't about the bandwidth-limited square wave excitation that you see in Conrad's clip.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 16, 2017, 04:07:56 PM
Oh-so now we have electromagnets that repel steel cars
 ::)

Where or how do you keep coming up with this stuff synchro lol.


Brad

@Tinman,

My vendetta with TK goes back to one of his earliest coil comparison videos nearly eight years ago. I had a large coffee can size solenoid bifilar professionally wound at an electric motor shop in Eureka California around the same time, and packed the core with welding rods for my first Bedini SSG. I already knew how to charge and pulse the coil from Dave Dinan, but I really didn't know exactly what to expect. I shocked twice; Once to shock charge and ring  it, then a second time. The spark from the second swipe was around ten times as large as the ring pulse. Well, everyone's already heard about the rack of carving knives that careened about twenty five feet towards the coil. The coil was unaffected by the attraction.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 16, 2017, 04:23:30 PM
Your coming up with 10ohm on conrads coils shows your inexperience with seeing such and making even an approximate determination of the resistance and it is far from showing that you are an authority in this area. Then you say that the difference between 10ohm and .4ohm doesnt make a difference anyway.  Run the sim and see how long it takes for the ring to die down in each example. Its a large difference and your assumption of 10 ohms then posting all the formulas trying to show big issues to prove your view against others views, then yeah, it should be pointed out that you are not producing accurate info in your argument. That 10ohms wastes a lot of energy in the circuit at a very unnecessary and unrealistic rate. 

So maybe, if i have to be blunt, just shedup.

Mags

No it doesn't show my inexperience, it shows that I was simply tired and took TK's resistance measurement from his clip instead.  Stop spinning.

As far as your silly complaint about the resistance goes, and since you portrayed me as a teacher, let's imagine this scenario:  The teacher goes through the effort of analyzing a circuit and applying various concepts involving inductance. capacitance, resistance, frequency, energy and power analysis and goes through a step-by-step logical analysis and arrives at a satisfactory conclusion.  Then some student in the back of the class raises his hand and objects and says, "But sir, the resistance was 11 ohms and not two ohms!"

There is a pregnant pause in the classroom and then nearly every student turns around and glares at the problem student and makes it clear to him that he is acting like a fool and an idiot and is either being intentionally disruptive, and/or he is too dim witted to realize that the whole point of the exercise is to understand and appreciate the analysis and the values of the components are just illustrative and not critical to understanding what is really going on.

To be blunt, put your brain in gear and think properly and stop playing the hapless fool "out to get me."
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 16, 2017, 04:36:37 PM
What's the magnet wave look like? Here's a view of a "Galactic Wormhole":
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: gyulasun on April 16, 2017, 04:47:33 PM
Yes it's a strange question because it was a discussion about Magluvin's mistaken belief that "since a series bifilar coil can look like the wire resistance only, then I can pulse a series bifilar coil and get an instant magnetic field without having to energize the inductor."  It wasn't about the bandwidth-limited square wave excitation that you see in Conrad's clip.

Hi MileHigh,

Well, it is true that Conrad's function generator happened to produce a distorted square wave instead of a beefy brick wall wave form at the 4 MHz frequency involved but nevertheless it was already far from a sine wave, close to "imitate" a switching waveform, do not you think?

For me, this is not an explanation,  and I do not think what Magluvin wrote is a mistaken belief, I agree with him.

Obviously, the claims have to be proved by measurements and hopefully it is taking place in this thread.

Gyula
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 16, 2017, 04:49:28 PM
Would I be correct in thinking that these coils/transformers were specifically designed for DC pulses?

Cheers Graham.

Nope, the wording of the patent indicates that it is a device that is supposed to work with sinusoidal AC frequencies.  The patent states what amounts to an observation that at the resonance frequency the device acts like a series LC circuit and offers no AC impedance and only shows up as wire resistance.

It also states that the inherent capacitance can also be used for power factor correction.  That would imply that Tesla envisioned the series bifilar pancake coll as one half of what would presumably be a large air core transformer driving an inductive load.

Here is something that may have been a possibility from my mind's eye:   A small factory owner at the turn of the 19th century has a workshop that includes a dozen half-horsepower motors that are always on that drive some small pieces of machinery.  He complains to the electric utility that he is being overcharged for his power consumption and/or his installed electrical wiring is running too hot from resistive losses.  Tesla wanted to put a series-bifilar-based air core transformer next to each machine to do the power factor correction for each motor.  However, this never was realized because other and better methods where developed for power factor correction and the patent was never used in a working device.

I am no Tesla expert, but that is my best guess.  In old factories there were also very large electric motors that drove a long main driveshaft and belts connected to the driveshaft powered the various machines.  I am pretty sure most of us have seen these pictures.  So perhaps Tesla envisioned a giant series-bifilar transformer for this case, who knows.

The patent says nothing about pulsing the coil at all.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 16, 2017, 05:08:02 PM
and I do not think what Magluvin wrote is a mistaken belief, I agree with him.

Really, you believe a series bifilar coil can can produce a magnetic field because when you pulse it it appears to be resistive only and you get near-instant current and a near-instant magnetic field without doing the work to energize the inductance?

I agree, we can temporarily forget about our existing knowledge and this claim and/or belief will have to be proven with measurements.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 16, 2017, 05:16:12 PM
At this point in time,i have to ask the same question as MH
--->what advantage is there at driving the coils/inductors at there resonant frequency?.

The single and bifilar coils seem to behave no differently,other than the bifi having a lower resonant frequency. I would think that is because of the higher voltage between turns,as that is the only difference i can find.

Brad

Exactly, where do you go after you have observed it ringing?   Well, what I did that was new was I estimated how much continuous power would have to be pumped into the coil from an outside source to sustain the few microjoules of energy resonating inside the coil.  It is just giving you more information about the coil.

But where do you go?   What practical use is there for the series bifiar pancake or solenoid coil?  This is usually where the train runs out of fuel and stops cold on the tracks.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 16, 2017, 05:38:14 PM
Are you in the know or are you just a fanboi?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 16, 2017, 06:26:45 PM
The single wire coil won't ring from a "Shock Charge". You may need a "Make an Instant magnet" trick.

Oh boy! Can't wait for the TK's next thriller Ohmic resistance measurement video with his mighty digital multi meter!


Note the beautiful high q, high amplitude ringing from "shock charging" my single wire MONOFILAR flat coil with a depleted 9v battery. No magnets in sight, just the coil, the battery, some wire, and an oscilloscope. Oh... yes.... and the skill and knowledge to use them.


Anyone with the skill, knowledge and test equipment can reproduce EVERYTHING I have ever demonstrated.

So that lets you out three ways, incompetent ignorant ill-equipped Synchro.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 16, 2017, 06:32:31 PM
"Coil for Electromagnets." means "Coil for Electro-Magnetizing."

 "The Lorentz force is the combination of electric and magnetic force on a point charge due to electromagnetic fields".

The U.S.A. has two North Korean Satellites passing over the country that can deliver an "Electro Magnetic Pulse" that has the deadly force to kill 90% of Americans from proximate consequences. This weapons technology is a direct descendent of "Tesla's Serial Bifilar Pancake Coil", persistently hidden from view by snake oil videos from this conceited agent of disinformation.

Observe what this petulant and paranoid child is accusing me of! "persistently hiding from view" what? North Korean weapons technology, that only exists in his deluded mind? Or information about Tesla's Bifilar pancake coil, which I have been exploring publicly and posting about publicly for years?
None of my videos on this topic fall into the "snake oil" category, and I am not a "conceited agent of disinformation", those are simply more insulting lies from the petulant man-child.  Notice how the insults and accusations he slings at me are near-perfect descriptors of himself.

Quote
Tinselkoala is just a "Cheap Carnival Huckster"! He has no right to be on Youtube.

Send a PM to Stephan Hartiberlin to help me throw this Bum out!

All insults removed from this post.

Preserved for posterity.  Synchro apparently cannot make a single post without saying something stupid and even contradicting himself.

"All insults removed from this post"..... Not quite, you missed a few.

EDIT: I have been informed that it was TinMan who edited away insults from this post of Synchro's. Therefore I withdraw the "idiot", however I feel that Synchro's insults should remain in the original, as evidence.

You cannot refute anything in any of my YT videos, Synchro, so go away and STFU.

(For this latest nonsense you don't deserve a ROFL.... you get a Drop Bear instead.)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 16, 2017, 07:46:11 PM
For crying out loud.....  this the best you got?

Show us what you've got.  What do you think the patent is all about?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 16, 2017, 08:11:28 PM
What do you know the patent is all about?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 16, 2017, 11:39:57 PM
Well I spent literally all day yesterday here on this and made the coil and did the preliminary measurements.

Today I reread the patent, of which, googles rewrite needs some work, so stick with the original.

Ok, here is my vision on this..

'Every' coil, inductor, has its own capacitance. If it is a 1000 turn normal coil and we apply 100v, the voltage differential between turns is .1v. The actual capacity between turns, using the same number of turns, the same wire size, the same winding design, is the same for a bifi coil and the standard. That value does not change between the 2 coils as the proximity and surface area of each turn and its adjacent turns are all physically the same. But the same coil described above in a bifi setup has 50v potential difference between turns. He describe the difference between the 2 capacities of these 2 differently wound coils is 250,000 times!

There is the familiar 3d example out there that describes the bifi as 100 turns and 100v applied, where the normal coil has only 1v potential difference, yet the bifi example still shows 50v between turns just like Teslas 1000 turn example. So the more turns that you use on a normal coil, the lower the potential difference between each turn is and thus lowering the working value of the capacitance by lowering the potential charges the capacitance has to work with. If it were a 10,000 turn regular coil with 100v, the potential difference between each turn is now only .01v charge, yet a 10,000 turn bifi would still have 50v between turns.  So what is the difference for the 10,000 turn example, 2.5mil times??

So the more turns of a regular coil, the capacitance becomes less and less significant compared to the increased inductance for said coil because the potential difference between turns becomes less and less.  Or even if the more turns there ends up more turns with capacity between them, as that capacity increases the potential for each adjacent pair decreases, so for arguments sake, lets say the capacity as a whole figuring in the potential diff,  may remain the same for whatever amount of turns for a normal coil, but inductance increases. With the bifi, that potential difference remains the same no matter how many turns, and the more turns the more physical capacity. So for a bifi the more turns, the total capacity increases. So just those facts show that these 2 different coils definitely have some major differences as the number of turns increases for each. 

A 'perfect' example would be a 2 turn coil. it is essentially a bifi winding! 50v between each adjacent turn. As soon as we make it 3 turns, we have only increased the capacity by 2 and we have decreased the potential to 33.3v between turns. 4 turns increases capacity by 3 and brings sown the potential to 23v. So with that I suppose we can determine the effective capacitance as to whether it is increased, decreased, or remains the same as we increase the number of turns for a standard coil.

So mow the bifi.
2 turns, 100v 50v cap potential
3 turns, 100v 50v cap potential  and double the physical capacitance
4 turns, 100v 50v cap potential  and triple the physical capacitance

100 turns, 100v 50v cap potential and 99 times higher capacity!!   So something is very very different between the bifi and the normal coil self capacitance as the turns for each increases.




I believe the showing of a flat coil in the pat is mostly for easier understanding for the reader of the difference in how the 2 coils are setup and the relationship between turns throughout the winding, as he does say that this can be applied to any way of winding coils, inductors, etc.

Going back to the pat, here are things he says about freq and 'potential'

"I have found that in every coil there exists a certain relation between its self-induction and capacity that permits, a current of given frequency and potential to pass through it with no other opposition than that of ohmic resistance, or, in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction."

Now if we look at a 10mh coil of normal winding, if what he says is so, then there must be an initial current in the coil that is allowed to fill the capacity avoiding the inductive delay. But it just so happens that the capacitance of the normal coil has so little value due to the potential between each turn pair is a result of the input divided by the number of turns. So that is something we should look at, if we can. Is there an initial current that enters the normal coil to fill its cap at the instant of applied input, that is just so small we do not see it, unless we look for it? And if we can see it, then we need to compare the bifi in the same manner.


"This is due to the mutual relations existing between the special character of the current and the self-induction and capacity of the coil, the latter quantity being just capable of neutralizing the self-induction for that frequency. It is well known that the higher the frequency or potential difference of the current the smaller the capacity required to counteract the self-induction; hence, in any coil, however small the capacity, it may be sufficient for the purpose stated if the proper conditions in other respects be secured in the ordinary coils the difference of potential between adjacent turns or spirals is very small, so that while they are in a sense condensers, they possess but very small capacity and the relations between the two quantities. self-induction and capacity, are not such as under any ordinary conditions satisfy the requirements herein contemplated, because the capacity relatively to the self-induction is very small."

In the past I have said this all before. Being that the capacitance of the normal coil IS seemingly very insignificant, it is still there. And the freq he is speaking of is possibly very high, so that initial input I spoke of just may be at a very high freq and small due to the capacity being very small. If for the 10mh example the capacity is in the pf and the potential is very low, then to see it we may have to have very good equipment to do so. Dunno yet. I have a 1g scope. I know there is much better. How Tesla came up with this stuff is mesmerizing.


So with that, this is the area I wish to look into. Like I said to MH, the resonance part is not what I am look for right now.

Gota git. Be back later

Mags

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 17, 2017, 12:39:09 AM
Quote
"I have found that in every coil there exists a certain relation between its self-induction and capacity that permits, a current of given frequency and potential to pass through it with no other opposition than that of ohmic resistance, or, in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction."

Once you have found the self-resonant frequency of your coil by looking for maximum voltage amplitude on your scope, the above suggests a second test to confirm your findings:

[signal generator] -> [coil] -> [non-inductive resistor] -> [ground]

Suppose your coil is two ohms and self-resonates at 200 kHz and you use a 10-ohm non-inductive resistor.

If your signal generator is set to output 12 volts peak-to-peak at 200 kHz then you should observe a 10-volt peak-to-peak signal across the resistor that is in phase with the signal generator if the coil is acting like a series LC circuit.  Then, as you increase the frequency you should see the voltage across the resistor start to drop as the impedance of the inductor starts to predominate.  Likewise, as you decrease the frequency you should see the voltage across the resistor start to drop as the capacitance starts to predominate.  However, will that really happen considering that we are dealing with a distributed capacitance and not a true series capacitance?

There may be a surprise, and at the self-resonant frequency of 200 kHz, there is no voltage across the resistor.  That would be explained by the coil acting as a parallel LC circuit at the self-resonant frequency.

An astute experimenter would measure the self-resonant frequency of his coil by looking for the maximum voltage swing, and then move on to this second test and do a full frequency sweep looking at the voltage and phase across the non-inductive resistor.  There may be some "surprises" to be found where there may be one or more "poles" and "zeroes" in the observed voltage and phase across the non-inductive resistor.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 17, 2017, 01:06:54 AM
@Tinman,

My vendetta with TK goes back to one of his earliest coil comparison videos nearly eight years ago. I had a large coffee can size solenoid bifilar professionally wound at an electric motor shop in Eureka California around the same time, and packed the core with welding rods for my first Bedini SSG. I already knew how to charge and pulse the coil from Dave Dinan, but I really didn't know exactly what to expect. I shocked twice; Once to shock charge and ring  it, then a second time. The spark from the second swipe was around ten times as large as the ring pulse. Well, everyone's already heard about the rack of carving knives that careened about twenty five feet towards the coil. The coil was unaffected by the attraction.

So you admit that you have been waging a "vendetta" against me for "nearly eight years". 

Do you also admit that you have been posting the insults and fake claims about me, in a deliberate effort to damage me personally, affect my reputation negatively, and affect my income and livelihood? Your emotive insults are also clearly designed to affect my health as well, by raising emotional responses in me which increase heart rate, blood pressure and other negative effects. Is that not true? Have you ever apologized to me for insulting me, posting negative comments about me on other websites, defacing my YouTube channel, and so on? 



"everyone's already heard about the rack of carving knives that careened about twenty five feet towards the coil. The coil was unaffected by the attraction."

I'll wager a cheezburger that you cannot demonstrate this. A rack of knives, "careening" about 25 feet towards the coffee-can sized coil, with the coil being "unaffected by the attraction". Let's see you demonstrate this. I think you won't, because you cannot.

You've made false claims and distorted and misrepresented many things before. Are you sure about what you are claiming now? PROVE IT.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: gyulasun on April 17, 2017, 01:13:06 AM

...
An astute experimenter would measure the self-resonant frequency of his coil by looking for the maximum voltage swing, and then move on to this second test and do a full frequency sweep looking at the voltage and phase across the non-inductive resistor.  There may be some "surprises" to be found where there may be one or more "poles" and "zeroes" in the observed voltage and phase across the non-inductive resistor.

Yes, the Tesla bifilar coil construction can inherently give resonances at several frequencies and it is to be measured whether a parallel or a series resonance comes about at the first resonance frequency which is defined by the series connection of the two windings and the self-capacitance of the coil structure.
Here are two of  my earlier posts on this topic:
http://overunity.com/13460/teslas-coil-for-electro-magnets/msg360645/topicseen/#msg360645 (http://overunity.com/13460/teslas-coil-for-electro-magnets/msg360645/topicseen/#msg360645) and
http://overunity.com/13460/teslas-coil-for-electro-magnets/msg361749/topicseen/#msg361749 (http://overunity.com/13460/teslas-coil-for-electro-magnets/msg361749/topicseen/#msg361749) 

The links do not work any more, unfortunately but on page 4 of this PDF file for instance the impedance curve is shown in the function of frequency:  http://www.ik4hdq.net/doc/testi/TrappCoassMulti.pdf (http://www.ik4hdq.net/doc/testi/TrappCoassMulti.pdf)
Here is a paper of a measurement setup http://www.iw2fnd.it/sites/default/files/docs/Trappole_01_EN.pdf (http://www.iw2fnd.it/sites/default/files/docs/Trappole_01_EN.pdf)

EDIT:  I managed to bring back my original link that was included in in my earlier post:
https://web.archive.org/web/20130321175122/http://vk1od.net/antenna/coaxtrap/index.htm  this includes further references and corrections to earlier studies

Gyula   
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 17, 2017, 01:34:10 AM
Gyula,

You obviously know your stuff.  I am really not proficient in these matters, more of a Joe Blow that just knows some basics.  For example, the attached two images of Smith charts make me queasy just looking at them, and I never really got into the advanced EM stuff.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 17, 2017, 02:08:07 AM
Once you have found the self-resonant frequency of your coil by looking for maximum voltage amplitude on your scope, the above suggests a second test to confirm your findings:

[signal generator] -> [coil] -> [non-inductive resistor] -> [ground]

Suppose your coil is two ohms and self-resonates at 200 kHz and you use a 10-ohm non-inductive resistor.

If your signal generator is set to output 12 volts peak-to-peak at 200 kHz then you should observe a 10-volt peak-to-peak signal across the resistor that is in phase with the signal generator if the coil is acting like a series LC circuit.  Then, as you increase the frequency you should see the voltage across the resistor start to drop as the impedance of the inductor starts to predominate.  Likewise, as you decrease the frequency you should see the voltage across the resistor start to drop as the capacitance starts to predominate.  However, will that really happen considering that we are dealing with a distributed capacitance and not a true series capacitance?

There may be a surprise, and at the self-resonant frequency of 200 kHz, there is no voltage across the resistor.  That would be explained by the coil acting as a parallel LC circuit at the self-resonant frequency.

An astute experimenter would measure the self-resonant frequency of his coil by looking for the maximum voltage swing, and then move on to this second test and do a full frequency sweep looking at the voltage and phase across the non-inductive resistor.  There may be some "surprises" to be found where there may be one or more "poles" and "zeroes" in the observed voltage and phase across the non-inductive resistor.

Behold:

This is a one-minute sweep of frequency between 10 kHz to 500 kHz of one of my TBF pancakes. (661 uH, FR = 273.2 kHz, distributed capacitance calculated as approx. 513 pF)

The Yellow trace is the voltage across a 9.4 ohm, 1 percent, noninductive precision resistor pair (2 x 4.7 ohm in "opposite series"), connected as you describe. It behaves just as you predict for the parallel LC circuit, with the minimum voltage across the resistor occurring at the resonant frequency of 273.2 kHz.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 17, 2017, 02:28:42 AM
A bit more dramatic:  30 second sweeps from 10 kHz to 1 MHz, same setup as above.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 17, 2017, 02:31:28 AM

Note the beautiful high q, high amplitude ringing from "shock charging" my single wire MONOFILAR flat coil with a depleted 9v battery. No magnets in sight, just the coil, the battery, some wire, and an oscilloscope. Oh... yes.... and the skill and knowledge to use them.


Anyone with the skill, knowledge and test equipment can reproduce EVERYTHING I have ever demonstrated.

So that lets you out three ways, incompetent ignorant ill-equipped Synchro.


@Tinselkoala,


Another "Krell 7th level" Scope Shot? That's the same scope you can't read "Negative Current" off of!  It would help  to understand Australian to translate this: A watt hour is a negative Henry.


Neither you nor Milehigh has ever had a Physics course nor can either of you read or understand the Algebraic expressions we use in the "Henry Formula". This is where you both turn into Hydro-encpheletic Pinheads.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 17, 2017, 02:43:38 AM
@Milehigh and Tinselkoala,


I first mentioned "Negative-micro henries" to you both on Gotolucs Than Heinz regenerative gain video, and I insisted you include a "Negative Henry" value as a gain of power factor to add onto the COP. Neither of you had a clue and that raised an eyebrow on you frauds back then. A higher inductance coil field would factor into an electric power equivalent to deduct from the input. You two sneaked 'Rim Lead" onto the tote wheel in favor of loss.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 17, 2017, 02:45:25 AM

@Tinselkoala,


Another "Krell 7th level" Scope Shot? That's the same scope you can't read "Negative Current" off of!  It would help  to understand Australian to translate this: A watt hour is a negative Henry.


Neither you nor Milehigh has ever had a Physics course nor can either of you read or understand the Algebraic expressions we use in the "Henry Formula". This is where you both turn into Hydro-encpheletic Pinheads.

Wrong again, several times over, and again more applicable to Synchro himself as anyone can see from previous posts concerning differential calculus, basic algebra, units, and definitions of electrical terminology.

 And of course .... preserved yet more of the nine-year-old petulant child's insults for the record. 

"A watt-hour is a negative Henry".... what a laugh.  A WATT-HOUR is a measure of ENERGY, and its units are JOULES. A HENRY is a measure of INDUCTANCE and can be expressed as Joules/Amps2. The two are in no way equal or "equivalent" no matter where you put the minus sign.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 17, 2017, 02:47:01 AM
@Milehigh and Tinselkoala,


I first mentioned "Negative-micro henries to you booth on Gotolucs Than Heinz regenerative gain video, and I insisted you include a "Negative Henry value as a gain of power factor to add onto the COP. Neither of you had a clue and that raised an eyebrow on you frauds back then.

Null content, except for the "frauds" accusation, which is here preserved for the evidential record.

And by the way, Thane Heinz never produced a single Joule of excess energy.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 17, 2017, 02:50:20 AM
Now, if I can get a word in edgewise between the Ainslie-esque off-topic tramplings of the troll Synchro...

Here is yet another frequency sweep. Previous ones were linear, here is a log sweep from 1 kHz to 5 MHz, clearly showing the "notch" at 273kHz indicating parallel LC performance. This is 2 sweeps of 30 seconds each.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 17, 2017, 02:53:01 AM
@Milehigh and Tinselkoala,


I first mentioned "Negative-micro henries" to you both on Gotolucs Than Heinz regenerative gain video, and I insisted you include a "Negative Henry" value as a gain of power factor to add onto the COP. Neither of you had a clue and that raised an eyebrow on you frauds back then. A higher inductance coil field would factor into an electric power equivalent to deduct from the input. You two sneaked 'Rim Lead" onto the tote wheel in favor of loss.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y)

I think you need some cheese to soothe your aching psyche.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 17, 2017, 02:58:06 AM
Great work TK!  The mysteries of the series bifilar pancake coil explored!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 17, 2017, 02:59:52 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y)


@Milehigh,


How much electricity is in a magnet?


Dr. Dragone whom I've cited and done videos about evolved his doctoral thesis on these equations.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 17, 2017, 03:03:56 AM
I advised John Bedini on his "Ferris Wheel Motor," and can make it easy to understand how it works.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 17, 2017, 03:15:36 AM
Do you people realize that if we position a Tesla bifilar pancake between a transmitter and receiver  bi-spirals, that the third middle coil will spontaneously generate power at the same resonating frequency of the transmission wave, and double the range minus resistance in the wires?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 17, 2017, 03:19:52 AM
Would you look at that?

"Daddy... how much electricity is in a magnet?"

I haven't heard that one since nursery school.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 17, 2017, 03:21:22 AM
Do you people realize that if we position a Tesla bifilar pancake between a transmitter and receiver  bi-spirals, that the third middle coil will spontaneously generate power at the same resonating frequency of the transmission wave, and double the range minus resistance in the wires?

Congratulations, you've invented the air-core transformer!

(What is the unit of "spontaneous generation"?  The FruitFly? )
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 17, 2017, 03:28:27 AM
Great work TK!  The mysteries of the series bifilar pancake coil explored!

Thanx! It's work anyone can do for themselves if they follow your suggestions and have the knowledge, the skills and the equipment necessary. Too bad some people posting here have none of the above.

Here are 30 second sweeps from 1kHz to 25MHz of the monofilar pancake coil. Same setup, big difference. The voltage across the resistor does not rise again after the minimum is reached. The little bumps at the end are due to my cheapo DDS FG crapping out and not making a decent sinewave any more.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 17, 2017, 04:28:18 AM
Thanx! It's work anyone can do for themselves if they follow your suggestions and have the knowledge, the skills and the equipment necessary. Too bad some people posting here have none of the above.

Here are 30 second sweeps from 1kHz to 25MHz of the monofilar pancake coil. Same setup, big difference. The voltage across the resistor does not rise again after the minimum is reached. The little bumps at the end are due to my cheapo DDS FG crapping out and not making a decent sinewave any more.

@Tinselkoala,

No one can trust you to hook anything up right. You can't figure out how Bedini ran his "Ferris Wheel"!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 17, 2017, 04:31:55 AM
How about this magic, MH: 

Here is a scopeshot of the TBF pancake coil (661 uH, FR = 273.2 kHz) being stimulated by a sine wave at the resonant frequency. The Blue trace is the source frequency,  the Yellow trace is the voltage across the current sensing resistor as used in the previous scopeshots connected as MH specified, and the Purple trace is the signal from a "pickup coil" (actually the monofilar pancake, it was the first thing handy to grab) suspended a couple of cm away from the TBF coil. Not connected (but share the common ground of course). It is clearly getting a voltage induced in it. But the current sensing resistor on the TBF coil is showing zero voltage across the resistor, which should mean no current flowing through it. Clearly, the TBF is still generating a magnetic field that alternates at its driven frequency, otherwise it could not induce a voltage in the pickup coil. Right? 

(Inspired by Gyula's questions, thanks!)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 17, 2017, 04:36:32 AM
@Tinselkoala,

No one can trust you to hook anything up right. You can't figure out how Bedini ran his "Ferris Wheel"!

It must be horrible to be you, baby doll. You are so insecure. You will lie, sling innuendos, make unsupportable claims and even Ainslie-troll threads to try to bury discussions you don't like, in order to salvage your pitiful insecure ego. You should have your doctor check your medications, because your paranoia level is off-scale and you are clearly in a meltdown phase.

I can clearly show that my connections are correct, and ANYONE, even you, can CHECK MY WORK and see if I am doing it properly or not.

And there is no mystery at all about any of Bedini's motors. By the way, this thread is not about Bedini motors.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 17, 2017, 05:01:50 AM
So, here's a frequency log sweep from 1 kHz to 5 MHz of the same setup as in the previous scopeshot (two full sweeps of 30 seconds shown). Stimulating the TBF coil of 661 uH and FR of 273.2 kHz. 

Blue, stimulating sine wave; Yellow, voltage across the 9.4 ohm resistor in series with TBF coil and FG; Purple, pickup monofilar coil separated by about 1 cm from the TBF by wooden spacers and clothespins.

The big clipped peak in the Purple trace happens at the monofilar's resonant frequency of about 1.24 MHz.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 17, 2017, 05:28:10 AM
Hey babydoll, did I get the connections right?  You can trust me .... this won't hurt a bit.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 17, 2017, 06:15:23 AM
Ain't these just about the purtyest scopeshots you've seen?

Two log sweeps of thirty seconds, 1kHz-25MHz.

I wish my FG would go higher but to get any higher than 25MHz I'd have to dig out the HP8640B and that damned thing weighs a ton.


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: AlienGrey on April 17, 2017, 07:17:42 AM
Ain't these just about the purtyest scopeshots you've seen?

Two log sweeps of thirty seconds, 1kHz-25MHz.

I wish my FG would go higher but to get any higher than 25MHz I'd have to dig out the HP8640B and that damned thing weighs a ton.
Have you looked on youtube on how to update your device by loading different characteristics, I think you can get it to think it's a spectrum analyser  ;) PS don't blame me if it cocks it up !

Regards AG
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 17, 2017, 10:31:22 AM
@Tinselkoala,

No one can trust you to hook anything up right. You can't figure out how Bedini ran his "Ferris Wheel"!

Syncro. Brad and I are moderators here. You need to put up or shut up, to put it bluntly. Either show what your arguments claim or we will have to shut you off here.

You came into this thread at page 3 and claimed that the bifi has 2 times the inductance as a normal coil. Tk proved you wrong, and I am saying you are wrong. Get it together bud and I do not want to see1, 3, 4 and 5 posts in a row of bashing. You are accomplishing nothing but wasting page space. So it has to end here. Ok?

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 17, 2017, 10:38:34 AM
How about this magic, MH: 

Here is a scopeshot of the TBF pancake coil (661 uH, FR = 273.2 kHz) being stimulated by a sine wave at the resonant frequency. The Blue trace is the source frequency,  the Yellow trace is the voltage across the current sensing resistor as used in the previous scopeshots connected as MH specified, and the Purple trace is the signal from a "pickup coil" (actually the monofilar pancake, it was the first thing handy to grab) suspended a couple of cm away from the TBF coil. Not connected (but share the common ground of course). It is clearly getting a voltage induced in it. But the current sensing resistor on the TBF coil is showing zero voltage across the resistor, which should mean no current flowing through it. Clearly, the TBF is still generating a magnetic field that alternates at its driven frequency, otherwise it could not induce a voltage in the pickup coil. Right? 

(Inspired by Gyula's questions, thanks!)

Sweet. So the blue trace is the input on 10v scale and the purple is on a 1v scale of the pickup a couple cm away. What if it were closer and loaded, does that change the yellow trace any? Closer may change the capacitance of the bifi, is that why the couple cm spacing? Thanks for showing.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 17, 2017, 01:10:37 PM
Syncro. Brad and I are moderators here. You need to put up or shut up, to put it bluntly. Either show what your arguments claim or we will have to shut you off here.

You came into this thread at page 3 and claimed that the bifi has 2 times the inductance as a normal coil. Tk proved you wrong, and I am saying you are wrong. Get it together bud and I do not want to see1, 3, 4 and 5 posts in a row of bashing. You are accomplishing nothing but wasting page space. So it has to end here. Ok?

Mags

@Mags,

The "Watt Hour" was selected as the base unit by Joseph Hemry for his Inductance formula. Neither Milehigh nor Tinselkoala had any way to find this out because neither of them knows how to read or understand the algebraic expressions we use. Then we find them doing this kind of arithmetic in "Highly FIllagred Fashion". What's wrong with this picture? They refuse to acknowledge "Negative Henry Measurements", an indespensible units of force equivalency.

"Negative Current" is another unit of measurement they maintain is imaginary. Really now come on man? You don't want to stick up for these foppy show offs, with beat off cream on their faces, do you?   
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 17, 2017, 01:15:04 PM
It must be horrible to be you, baby doll. You are so insecure. You will lie, sling innuendos, make unsupportable claims and even Ainslie-troll threads to try to bury discussions you don't like, in order to salvage your pitiful insecure ego. You should have your doctor check your medications, because your paranoia level is off-scale and you are clearly in a meltdown phase.

I can clearly show that my connections are correct, and ANYONE, even you, can CHECK MY WORK and see if I am doing it properly or not.

And there is no mystery at all about any of Bedini's motors. By the way, this thread is not about Bedini motors.

@Tinselkoala,

He's using Quaqdfilars, two bifilars joined into one winding! So it's on topic. You attract people with shiny objects then club them like seal pups on the ice flow.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 17, 2017, 02:01:36 PM
@Tinselkoala,

He's using Quaqdfilars, two bifilars joined into one winding! So it's on topic. You attract people with shiny objects then club them like seal pups on the ice flow.

Lets keep it to this....

"He's using Quaqdfilars, two bifilars joined into one winding! So it's on topic."

And if you are going to make rebuttal statements, show links or other sources for your arguments please. This way it is harder for your statements to be frowned upon just because it is coming from you. Makes for less unnecessary back and forth filling pages. ;)

I already warned you once, but it doesnt seem to sink in. Keep it clean or, well you know. :(

Mags
 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 17, 2017, 02:09:39 PM
Im not going to have time to play today.  :-[ I wana go out and play,Cuz Im a fan boi.  ;) Gota work. But I will be checking in periodically.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 17, 2017, 02:45:47 PM
@Mags,

The "Watt Hour" was selected as the base unit by Joseph Hemry for his Inductance formula. Neither Milehigh nor Tinselkoala had any way to find this out because neither of them knows how to read or understand the algebraic expressions we use. Then we find them doing this kind of arithmetic in "Highly FIllagred Fashion". What's wrong with this picture? They refuse to acknowledge "Negative Henry Measurements", an indespensible units of force equivalency.


Once again your insults and disparagement clearly describe yourself.

And you are having so much trouble typing in your childish rage that you can't even spell "HENRY".   You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. The WATT-HOUR IS A MEASURE OF ENERGY, in JOULES, not inductance which is measured in HENRIES, which can be expressed in Joules/Amps2.  They are in no way "equivalent" no matter where you stick your silly minus sign.
Quote
"Negative Current" is another unit of measurement they maintain is imaginary.

There is current, which is the flow of charge. It always proceeds from a place of higher potential to one of lower potential. Not the other way around. You can stomp your feet and add capital letters but that does not change the facts. The "negative" sign on your ammeters is there to show you which way the current is flowing, not to identify some "negative current".

But as I said earlier, since CURRENT is the flow of CHARGE, and charge in wires is carried by electrons, which have the unit negative charge, some nit picker could say that ALL current in wires is "negative" since it is the flow of negative charge. Nevertheless it still flows from higher potential (region of greater negative charge)  to lower potential (region of lesser negative charge). Only.

Quote
Really now come on man? You don't want to stick up for these foppy show offs, with beat off cream on their faces, do you?   

Really, Allen Burgess? You say things like that on this forum? Not only do you lie and misrepresent but you are now resorting to PORNOGRAPHY in your insults?

You are truly a sick, sick puppy.

In Texas we know what to do with animals as sick as you are. Someone will be along to remove you and your filth-slinging shortly, I trust.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 17, 2017, 02:48:27 PM


Once again your insults and disparagement clearly describe yourself.

And you are having so much trouble typing in your childish rage that you can't even spell "HENRY".   You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. The WATT-HOUR IS A MEASURE OF ENERGY, in JOULES, not inductance which is measured in HENRIES, which can be expressed in Joules/Amps2.  They are in no way "equivalent" no matter where you stick your silly minus sign.
There is current, which is the flow of charge. It always proceeds from a place of higher potential to one of lower potential. Not the other way around. You can stomp your feet and add capital letters but that does not change the facts. The "negative" sign on your ammeters is there to show you which way the current is flowing, not to identify some "negative current".

But as I said earlier, since CURRENT is the flow of CHARGE, and charge in wires is carried by electrons, which have the unit negative charge, some nit picker could say that ALL current in wires is "negative" since it is the flow of negative charge. Nevertheless it still flows from higher potential to lower potential. Only.

Really, Allen Burgess? You say things like that on this forum? Not only do you lie and misrepresent but you are now resorting to PORNOGRAPHY in your insults?

You are truly a sick, sick puppy.

In Texas we know what to do with animals as sick as you are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6r7cM3vHRg
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 17, 2017, 02:50:14 PM
You really WANT to get banned, don't you?

You are sick, that is the only explanation for you.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 17, 2017, 03:12:38 PM
@Tinselkoala,

This quote from Energetic Forum refers to Bedini's "Ferris Wheel Motor", The power of "Impulse Magnetization"!


"I'll take a stab at how the boots worked. I think the boot steel is set up like a Leedskalnin perpetual magnet holder (PMH) and it's in the off position. The boot has four of these PMH's on it. The magnet is always attracted to the walking surface when it's in the off position. When a person wishes to take a step all he has to do is pulse the PMH coils once and the magnetic force is redirected into the steel frame of the shoe that holds the steel posts, which removes the force to the floor. Once the pulse has ended the person could place his foot down and the magnet would direct is flow naturally to the steel floor".

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 17, 2017, 03:30:57 PM
How much electricity is in a magnet? We can use Dr. Leon Dragone's formulas to help solve this, But The answer is way overunity when the cost of impulse for the the conversion to electric power in the PM as you now understand it.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 17, 2017, 03:50:56 PM
Bedini swaps, collects and redirects the "Impulse Energy".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: itsu on April 17, 2017, 04:14:42 PM
Behold:

This is a one-minute sweep of frequency between 10 kHz to 500 kHz of one of my TBF pancakes. (661 uH, FR = 273.2 kHz, distributed capacitance calculated as approx. 513 pF)

The Yellow trace is the voltage across a 9.4 ohm, 1 percent, noninductive precision resistor pair (2 x 4.7 ohm in "opposite series"), connected as you describe. It behaves just as you predict for the parallel LC circuit, with the minimum voltage across the resistor occurring at the resonant frequency of 273.2 kHz.

Very nice TK,

To compare, here is my 10 second sweep of frequency between 10 kHz to 500 kHz of my TBF pancake. (528uH, FR = 307kHz, distributed capacitance calculated as approx. 509 pF)

Using the same method, so measuring across a 10 Ohm resistor (yellow)


Itsu
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 17, 2017, 05:07:50 PM
@Tinselkoala

Any reference to beat off cream by me would translate into German as"Schlag".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 17, 2017, 05:22:10 PM
@Tinselkoala

Any reference to beat off cream by me would translate into German as"Schlag".

Hmm. You are still stuck in crap mode.  Sorry. I give 3 strikes, then you are out. As soon as I figure out how to do it cuz you will be the first I have booted.
Apparently you wanted this, so it will be done today.

mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: itsu on April 17, 2017, 05:45:06 PM
Using a hall sensor i tried to chart the magnetic field of my TBP coil using 4V DC (1.5A).
The compass shows the field to mainly come from the center, the hall sensor more clearly shows this.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9-vtR6KGZ0


The rough sketch shown below shows what i think the magnetic field looks like according to my measurements.


Itsu
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 17, 2017, 06:15:38 PM
Itsu:

Nice to see that you did the frequency sweep and got similar results to TK.  It makes you ponder the Tesla patent where the statement is that the bifilar pancake coil is modeled as a series LC circuit.  Perhaps with larger "industrial scale" coils they start to look like series LC circuits and not parallel LC circuits at the main self-resonant frequency.

With respect to your magnetic field diagram, the more your shape deviates away from something regular like a conventional bar magnet, the less useful the concepts of "North" and "South" are.  The real essence of the magnetic field is to determine its direction and "follow the loop" so you know where it's going.  Knowing the magnitude is nice also but perhaps of secondary importance.

Please see the attached diagram showing the magnetic field around a pancake coil.  As you can see, you had your Hall sensor in the wrong orientation or plane, in order to track where it was going and follow the loop of the magnetic field.  Sure you can nominally say that over the top of the center axis of the coil is "North" and under the bottom of the center axis of the coil is "South" also.

If you look down on a flat pancake coil along the axis of the coil, as you can imagine the magnetic field on the top half of the coil will look like radial spokes of a wheel going from say the center towards the outer edge, and the magnetic field below the coil will look like radial spokes of a wheel going from the outer edge towards the center.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 17, 2017, 06:37:12 PM
Some people have trouble visualizing magnetic fields and this clip might help:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c6fRmyh4q8

Look at how he slices a solenoid coil and analyzes a series of current-carrying conductors all in a line.  Look at the magnetic field subtended by each wire and see where the cancellation and addition is between the wires.  Just forget about both sets of wires in the slice of the solenoid coil and just focus on the magnetic field produced by one set of wires.

This is very similar to a pancake coil where you take that concept and rotate the slice of wires around an axis to get a pancake coil but in this case with current-carrying wires that are in concentric circles.  Obviously when you go from concentric circles to a spiral the magnetic field stays essentially the same.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: itsu on April 17, 2017, 09:13:40 PM

Thanks Milehigh,

So when looking at the magnetic field of the pancake coil i should turn my hall sensor 90°, then skim the surface.

I did that and now the magnetic field follows a more realistic path, as we have a gradual increase and decrease from
the outside inwards, then flipping polarity in the middle and again increasing / decreasing.

See drawing on how i imagin that field now.

Itsu
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 17, 2017, 09:48:14 PM
Itsu:

I changed and annotated your drawing.  Note that I define north and south areas above and below the hole in the pancake coil.  If you just look at that 3D volume area, it somewhat resembles what would be taking place in a bar magnet.

I am not comfortable with your concept of defining the upper and lower halves of the left and right lobes,  as "North" or "South."  It's all somewhat of a grey area that is hard to define.   It becomes a question of an "observer" and "perceived magnetic field direction."

I will annotate another image to show you what I mean.

A related question is, "Where is the 'North' and 'South' for a long straight current-carrying wire?"   This is an example of where the concept of "North" and "South" breaks down.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 17, 2017, 09:52:13 PM
Thanks Milehigh,

So when looking at the magnetic field of the pancake coil i should turn my hall sensor 90°, then skim the surface.

I did that and now the magnetic field follows a more realistic path, as we have a gradual increase and decrease from
the outside inwards, then flipping polarity in the middle and again increasing / decreasing.

See drawing on how i imagin that field now.

Itsu

Hey Itsu

Im sure you are using analog hall sensors. Where the outer perimeter of the blue and read bubbles of field, is that perimeter where the hall does not register any longer? Just wondering. Also, does the hall register higher around the outer edge of the coil than on the flat sides? In Teslas transmitter and receiver diagram he shows another 2 turn winding at the outer perimeter of the pancakes for the transmitter and receiver, where the outer winding is the primary on the transmitter and the outer winding is the sec on the receiver. So it would be interesting if there is a concentration of flux at the outer edge of the pancake as that may be the reason for placement of that 2 turn coil in relation to the pancake as he shows, of which is one of my tests on the list.

Thanks for showing

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 17, 2017, 09:56:33 PM
Itsu:



I am not comfortable with your concept of defining the upper and lower halves of the left and right lobes,  as "North" or "South."  It's all somewhat of a grey area that is hard to define.   It becomes a question of an "observer" and "perceived magnetic field direction."


MileHigh

I was seeing that also. But if he just went across from the far left of the coil to the far right, without flipping the hall 180 in the middle, then that is what he recorded. Make sense?  So just one half can be mirrored and all is correct

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: itsu on April 17, 2017, 10:00:38 PM
Itsu:

I changed and annotated your drawing.  Note that I define north and south areas above and below the hole in the pancake coil.  If you just look at that 3D volume area, it somewhat resembles what would be taking place in a bar magnet.

I am not comfortable with your concept of defining the upper and lower halves of the left and right lobes,  as "North" or "South."  It's all somewhat of a grey area that is hard to define.   It becomes a question of an "observer" and "perceived magnetic field direction."

I will annotate another image to show you what I mean.

A related question is, "Where is the "North" and "South" for a long straight current-carrying wire?   This is an example of where the concept of "North" and "South" breaks down.

MileHigh

yes,  i know what you mean, its more the direction of the magnetic field lines that are detected, not the north or south poles.
My hall sensor detects the arrow direction in your above drawing.

Itsu 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: itsu on April 17, 2017, 10:07:15 PM
Hey Itsu

Im sure you are using analog hall sensors. Where the outer perimeter of the blue and read bubbles of field, is that perimeter where the hall does not register any longer? Just wondering. Also, does the hall register higher around the outer edge of the coil than on the flat sides? In Teslas transmitter and receiver diagram he shows another 2 turn winding at the outer perimeter of the pancakes for the transmitter and receiver, where the outer winding is the primary on the transmitter and the outer winding is the sec on the receiver. So it would be interesting if there is a concentration of flux at the outer edge of the pancake as that may be the reason for placement of that 2 turn coil in relation to the pancake as he shows, of which is one of my tests on the list.

Thanks for showing

Mags

Hi Mags,

no it is like my (and MH's) drawing above, when skimming from top to bottom (TBP coil vertical like my earlier picture) from the upper edge to the middle hole we see a increase/decrease of strength, same with the next part after the hole (no changing of the Hall sensor) increase / decrease until the lower edge (opposite direction detected)

Hope that is clear   :o


Itsu
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 17, 2017, 10:08:17 PM
Thanks Milehigh,

So when looking at the magnetic field of the pancake coil i should turn my hall sensor 90°, then skim the surface.

I did that and now the magnetic field follows a more realistic path, as we have a gradual increase and decrease from
the outside inwards, then flipping polarity in the middle and again increasing / decreasing.

See drawing on how i imagin that field now.

Itsu
Very nice result on the frequency scan. Your coil's parameters are very similar to mine, and that's great as our results can be more easily compared.
 
See MH's drawings for how the field "circulates" around the windings and thus around the whole disk, like a big torus or donut in space. With a big enough disk the lines would actually be parallel to the disk surface over much of the disk, only becoming orthogonal at the edge and at the hole.


But what about the results I posted earlier where I show that there is still plenty of induction, hence plenty of alternating magnetic field,  going on even when the current sensing resistor voltage indicates no voltage across the resistor?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 17, 2017, 10:09:20 PM
In this annotated drawing, the "eye" symbol is the observer, and "North" is "a magnetic field direction coming towards you" and "South" is "a magnetic field direction moving away from you."

It may look strange, but it actually all makes perfect sense.  What is "North" and "South" is a function of the observer's position.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 17, 2017, 10:17:24 PM
Quote
A related question is, "Where is the "North" and "South" for a long straight current-carrying wire?   This is an example of where the concept of "North" and "South" breaks down.

Right you are, and out the window with it is the concept of the "Bloch Wall". Generations of children have been fooled by looking at bar magnets painted red on one half and blue on the other half, and iron filings on paper to "map" the lines external to the magnet. Once Oersted figured out how the field actually surrounds a current-carrying wire, and people started cutting up bar magnets into smaller and smaller pieces, the true picture started to emerge. But they still paint bar magnets with colors by halfs,  rather than arrows and circulating lines parallel to the bar internally.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: itsu on April 17, 2017, 10:21:10 PM
Very nice result on the frequency scan. Your coil's parameters are very similar to mine, and that's great as our results can be more easily compared.
 
See MH's drawings for how the field "circulates" around the windings and thus around the whole disk, like a big torus or donut in space. With a big enough disk the lines would actually be parallel to the disk surface over much of the disk, only becoming orthogonal at the edge and at the hole.


But what about the results I posted earlier where I show that there is still plenty of induction, hence plenty of alternating magnetic field,  going on even when the current sensing resistor voltage indicates no voltage across the resistor?


Yes,   working on that too, need another pickup coil first.

Perhaps thats the secret of the TBP coil right there  :o

Itsu
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 17, 2017, 10:25:52 PM
Hi Mags,

no it is like my (and MH's) drawing above, when skimming from top to bottom (TBP coil vertical like my earlier picture) from the upper edge to the middle hole we see a increase/decrease of strength, same with the next part after the hole (no changing of the Hall sensor) increase / decrease until the lower edge (opposite direction detected)

Hope that is clear   :o


Itsu

Are you testing each area with the hall in the proper orientation as shown below for each section of coil?  Im just showing half for illustration. I left the hall diagrams at the top incase you want to show otherwise you can plug them in.

Because if you are going around the outer edge with the hall in the same orientation as it is above the flat side, then you will show less flux strength at the outer edge because the hall is 90 deg of the flux.


Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 17, 2017, 10:35:31 PM
The "red" and "blue" assignments are incorrect!

Hold the Hall sensor parallel to the plane of the disk and travel all around the disc's edge, keeping to the plane of the disk. You will see that the polarity does not flip, as it would if the colors were correct.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 17, 2017, 10:36:18 PM
@Tinselkoala,

Here's another Amos and Andy explanation below:


"The "negative" sign on your ammeters is there to show you which way the current is flowing, not to indicate the existence of your imaginary current".

Negative current is positive current moving backwards.

You admit to switching current direction, but you object to calling the reversal a reversal of polarity.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: itsu on April 17, 2017, 10:39:34 PM
Quote
Are you testing each area with the hall in the proper orientation as shown below for each section of coil?  Im just showing half for illustration. I left the hall diagrams at the top incase you want to show otherwise you can plug them in.

Because if you are going around the outer edge with the hall in the same orientation as it is above the flat side, then you will show less flux strength at the outer edge because the hall is 90 deg of the flux.


Mags

Ok,  i see what you mean,  no i just sweep from one side to the other in a straight line.
When doing it your way, i have the most strength in the center at the hole, not at the edges.

If you can combine the drawing from post #1014  (http://overunity.com/17186/the-bifilar-pancake-coil-at-its-resonant-frequency/msg504697/#msg504697 (http://overunity.com/17186/the-bifilar-pancake-coil-at-its-resonant-frequency/msg504697/#msg504697)) with the below
one, you might get the picture.


Itsu
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 17, 2017, 10:55:12 PM
Ok,  i see what you mean,  no i just sweep from one side to the other in a straight line.
When doing it your way, i have the most strength in the center at the hole, not at the edges.

Sure, because the field lines "bunch up" near the center hole, but must spread out around the edge. Just like winding a toroid with wire: the wire is close together and bunches up in the center hole but spreads out at the outside. There are the same "number" of lines at center and at edge, so they must be further apart at the edge, resulting in a lower field strength across the area of the sensor (fewer lines cross the sensor plane, flux density is less).

Quote

If you can combine the drawing from post #1014  (http://overunity.com/17186/the-bifilar-pancake-coil-at-its-resonant-frequency/msg504697/#msg504697 (http://overunity.com/17186/the-bifilar-pancake-coil-at-its-resonant-frequency/msg504697/#msg504697)) with the below
one, you might get the picture.


Itsu

The colors are wrong and should be removed.

Coloring the side view that way implies that the Top view looks like this:  But I hope it is obvious that this "color assignment"  is incorrect.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: itsu on April 17, 2017, 11:14:05 PM
Off course that can not be correct, but still my hall sensor detects opposite fields when skimming the surface of the disk from left to right or top to bottom.

I think how MH have explained it is correct.

Itsu
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 17, 2017, 11:21:42 PM
@Tinselkoala,

Here's another Amos and Andy explanation below:


"The "negative" sign on your ammeters is there to show you which way the current is flowing, not to indicate the existence of your imaginary current".

Negative current is positive current moving backwards.

You admit to switching current direction, but you object to calling the reversal a reversal of polarity.

Someday, if you live long enough, you might learn to stop misrepresenting and redefining what others say, but I doubt it.

Current has no polarity. Voltage has _relative_ polarity. Current is the flow of charge and always flows from higher potential to lower potential.

You are getting all twisted up with yourself, you can't even get your own definitions to be consistent.


And I note, and preserve for the record, the further childish insult contained in your post.  How is your personal vendetta against me coming along? 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 17, 2017, 11:23:42 PM
Off course that can not be correct, but still my hall sensor detects opposite fields when skimming the surface of the disk from left to right or top to bottom.

I think how MH have explained it is correct.

Itsu

Yes, it is, and if you do the test I recommended, scanning all around the edge of the coil with the hall sensor in the plane of the coil, you will see no opposite fields, the lines will always go through the sensor in the same direction.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 17, 2017, 11:29:12 PM
Off course that can not be correct, but still my hall sensor detects opposite fields when skimming the surface of the disk from left to right or top to bottom.

I think how MH have explained it is correct.

Itsu

Well if you face the hall inline with the fields as he has shown you should have higher flux readings than you have observed because the hall is still facing left and right when you bring it around the outer edge. So in my example imagine starting at the top where it says North in your drawing and as you move to the left toward the outer edge of the coil, the hall should be rotated as you move it so that by the time you are at the outer edge the hall will have turned 90deg, and then another 90deg once it is on the South marked side below.  If you can, try it and see if the outer edge is stronger than if it was with the hall the way you did it before. Just for giggles.

I will be doing the same tests but as I have described

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 17, 2017, 11:33:06 PM
Yes, it is, and if you do the test I recommended, scanning all around the edge of the coil with the hall sensor in the plane of the coil, you will see no opposite fields, the lines will always go through the sensor in the same direction.

Well if he faces the hall around the edge, the hall face will be 90 out from the flux and read neutral, as long as it is kept steady, no?  Shouldnt the face of the hall be perpendicular to the face of the coil on the outer edge??

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 18, 2017, 12:21:20 AM
Well if he faces the hall around the edge, the hall face will be 90 out from the flux and read neutral, as long as it is kept steady, no?  Shouldnt the face of the hall be perpendicular to the face of the coil on the outer edge??

Mags

Perhaps you are misunderstanding me or I am not being sufficiently clear. In my face-on drawing, the lines of flux around the disk edge will be straight up or down (into or out of the plane of the "paper") depending on the current direction. The Hall sensor should be held in the plane of the disk,  not at right angles to it.

Just like in your picture, except scan around the edge, remaining flat in the disk plane, instead of scanning along the _lines_ along the radius of the disk.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 18, 2017, 10:14:25 AM
Itsu:

Nice to see that you did the frequency sweep and got similar results to TK.  It makes you ponder the Tesla patent where the statement is that the bifilar pancake coil is modeled as a series LC circuit.  Perhaps with larger "industrial scale" coils they start to look like series LC circuits and not parallel LC circuits at the main self-resonant frequency.

With respect to your magnetic field diagram, the more your shape deviates away from something regular like a conventional bar magnet, the less useful the concepts of "North" and "South" are.  The real essence of the magnetic field is to determine its direction and "follow the loop" so you know where it's going.  Knowing the magnitude is nice also but perhaps of secondary importance.

Please see the attached diagram showing the magnetic field around a pancake coil.  As you can see, you had your Hall sensor in the wrong orientation or plane, in order to track where it was going and follow the loop of the magnetic field.  Sure you can nominally say that over the top of the center axis of the coil is "North" and under the bottom of the center axis of the coil is "South" also.

If you look down on a flat pancake coil along the axis of the coil, as you can imagine the magnetic field on the top half of the coil will look like radial spokes of a wheel going from say the center towards the outer edge, and the magnetic field below the coil will look like radial spokes of a wheel going from the outer edge towards the center.

MileHigh

I have asked this question many time's,and never got an answer--so i'll ask again
What are the arrow suppose to show?--what is flowing out one end of a PM,and into the other?
If nothing,then why the arrows?.


My two cent's worth
The arrows are wrong,and misguiding/misleading,and cause only confusion to most that look at magnetic field's,and see these arrows.
Most take this as some sort of flow direction,which is wrong.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 18, 2017, 10:23:22 AM
Very nice result on the frequency scan. Your coil's parameters are very similar to mine, and that's great as our results can be more easily compared.
 
See MH's drawings for how the field "circulates" around the windings and thus around the whole disk, like a big torus or donut in space. With a big enough disk the lines would actually be parallel to the disk surface over much of the disk, only becoming orthogonal at the edge and at the hole.


But what about the results I posted earlier where I show that there is still plenty of induction, hence plenty of alternating magnetic field,  going on even when the current sensing resistor voltage indicates no voltage across the resistor?

I also posted on that effect,where the voltage across the sniffer/pickup coil,was in phase with the voltage across the bifilar coil,and not the current through it.

Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 18, 2017, 10:26:14 AM


But what about the results I posted earlier where I show that there is still plenty of induction, hence plenty of alternating magnetic field,  going on even when the current sensing resistor voltage indicates no voltage across the resistor?

TK

Are you able to power a small load(E.G an LED) from a pickup coil(secondary) placed on top of the BPC,without it effecting this zero voltage across your CVR.?


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: itsu on April 18, 2017, 10:38:04 AM
Yes, it is, and if you do the test I recommended, scanning all around the edge of the coil with the hall sensor in the plane of the coil, you will see no opposite fields, the lines will always go through the sensor in the same direction.

TK,   Mags,


its not that easy to scan the coil like you mention as the probe connected to the hall and the disk shape of the coil prevents easy access around the wires.
 
I will try later today, but i do not expect nice results, perhaps Mag's will be able to better show his results.


Itsu
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: itsu on April 18, 2017, 10:45:46 AM

Quote
Quote from: MileHigh on April 16, 2017, 04:07:28 PM (http://overunity.com/17186/the-bifilar-pancake-coil-at-its-resonant-frequency/msg504554/#msg504554)<blockquote>Yes it's a strange question because it was a discussion about Magluvin's mistaken belief that "since a series bifilar coil can look like the wire resistance only, then I can pulse a series bifilar coil and get an instant magnetic field without having to energize the inductor."  It wasn't about the bandwidth-limited square wave excitation that you see in Conrad's clip.
</blockquote>


Hi MileHigh,

Well, it is true that Conrad's function generator happened to produce a distorted square wave instead of a beefy brick wall wave form at the 4 MHz frequency involved but nevertheless it was already far from a sine wave, close to "imitate" a switching waveform, do not you think?

For me, this is not an explanation,  and I do not think what Magluvin wrote is a mistaken belief, I agree with him.

Obviously, the claims have to be proved by measurements and hopefully it is taking place in this thread.

Gyula


going back to this part in the thread for a moment, as i tried a similar setup as in Conrads video to show the resonance, especially when driving with a square wave signal.
As my TBP coil has a much lower resonance frequency (307KHz compared to Conrads 8.5MHz) i had to change the 1pF cap (was blocking my signal) to 10pF.

The video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeHswSGwneg&t=196s

It shows various square wave signals when driving the TBP coil and the influence it has on the resonance frequency.


Itsu
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 18, 2017, 05:51:46 PM
TK,   Mags,

its not that easy to scan the coil like you mention as the probe connected to the hall and the disk shape of the coil prevents easy access around the wires.
 
I will try later today, but i do not expect nice results, perhaps Mag's will be able to better show his results.

Itsu

In looking at your "TBP coil resonance 1" clip I can see how you have access to the left and right sides of the coil sitting in the CD case with your Hall sensor so you can do the measurement there.  You don't have to scan around the full 360 degrees of the edge of the coil.  The whole thing is symmetrical so there is no need to make more than a single measurement.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 18, 2017, 06:02:36 PM
going back to this part in the thread for a moment, as i tried a similar setup as in Conrads video to show the resonance, especially when driving with a square wave signal.
As my TBP coil has a much lower resonance frequency (307KHz compared to Conrads 8.5MHz) i had to change the 1pF cap (was blocking my signal) to 10pF.

The video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeHswSGwneg&t=196s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeHswSGwneg&t=196s)

It shows various square wave signals when driving the TBP coil and the influence it has on the resonance frequency.

Itsu

Another great clip like usual Itsu.  The subject of breaking up a square wave into the sum of a bunch of sine waves at different frequencies is a challenging topic to understand for people with no background in this subject matter.  The short answer is that one of the sine waves in the frequency spectrum of the square wave is at the resonant frequency of the coil, and it's only that particular frequency that makes the coil resonate.

And that is why when you are looking for resonance or just to see how a circuit responds to a frequency sweep, you never use a square wave.  Multiple different square wave frequencies will make an LC resonator like the TBP coil resonate at its resonant frequency.  That can cause errors where you think the "wrong" square wave frequency is telling you the resonant frequency of the device under test.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 18, 2017, 07:16:18 PM
In looking at your "TBP coil resonance 1" clip I can see how you have access to the left and right sides of the coil sitting in the CD case with your Hall sensor so you can do the measurement there.  You don't have to scan around the full 360 degrees of the edge of the coil.  The whole thing is symmetrical so there is no need to make more than a single measurement.

Agreed.  I was just thinking if he has the face of the hall on the same plain as the coil throughout the go around, then it is not showing the actual flux density at the edges as compared to the flat areas, though it does explain the red and blue differences as he went around as we have taken notice of.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 18, 2017, 08:51:08 PM
Ok. I just had someone ask me about what I have said and I should clear that up.....

When I said there may be an instantaneous mag field when we apply input to the bifi due to neutralizing self inductance as tesla describes, I should have included the resistance that would be part of that RC time in the statement of which would kill the use of the word instantaneous.

But that is not to say that if Tesla is correct that we could not get a much faster charge to the capacitance if the resistance is very low and the self inductance delay of currents were neutralized.  The neutralization of self inductance claim is what we should be looking at as it is the claim.  Im under the strong assumption that the neutralization is in effect when we first introduce dc current to the coil, not at resonance.  If it were at resonance, then we wouldnt have resonance because the self inductance is said to be neutralized due to the capacity magnifying effect of the particular winding scheme. We need L and C for resonance. If one is not there then no ringy dingy. So when is it that the self inductance is neutralized as he claims? It must be at initial input or pulse that Tesla is thinking of.

Thinking deeper, if the claim is true, how does the coils capacitance neutralize the self induction? Does it happen due to charges developing between turns, and those charges affect the self induction between turns? Like some guys here that say it is not flux cutting that causes induction, but it is E field, sooo, where is their beef with that idea??? ;) ;D

Like say if the capacitance of the bifi coil or even a regular coil of the same where we had a V meter between every turn, a meter that magically did not affect the circuit in any way, and the coils were 100t and we apply 100v, how long after the input is applied should we see max voltage between each turn pair? Is it instantaineous that every meter would read the same voltage division between each turn? Instantaneous? Or would resistance produce a delay in full charge for each segment vs the time the input was applied? And then further, if the resistance was the only opposition to each turn pair reaching max fraction of the input, and then current begins to flow as self inductance allows, would this not be a no brainer?  Lets say we only read the 2 adjacent turns just in the middle of the coil, when we apply input, will we read 1v between the 2 turns immediately? Or would one say out of the blue that the voltage between those 2 turns wont reach 1v until max current and mag field??? I dont think so.

So the charge in the capacity between turns happens before current is affected by the inductance, and to say there is no current to charge the capacity would be wrong in my opinion, and experience.  Lets say I could wind a coil as we have done with 1uf of capacitance, would current have to flow to charge that capacitance?
If not, then have we charged that capacitance for free and if we disconnect the input at the moment the charge is there, no current happened, then the thing has been energized for free? ???   Na, Im thinking current flowed till the capacity is fully charged and then the self induction stops further flow and slowly lets current reach peak as we know it from there on..

Thats my story samson simpson.  ;)   Think on that.




In a normal coil, there just may be the same effect but it is sooo tiny that if we dont look for it closely we may not notice, as the capacity in the normal coil will have only a tiny fraction of the input applied and further more, the actual capacitance is tiny. But as I said before that tiny capacitance becomes less insignificant when the potential of that same tiny capacity is at a much greater level. So the initial bump that may be there when measuring a normal coil when we first apply dc is most likely tiny as said before and very short lived. But it just might be there. Just a theory based on Teslas claim.  But Im thinking that the bifi will have a bigger more noticeable bump. Im thinking on how to look at that. Would it be a pulse train that the scope will sync to or just a one shot input and can I get my scope to react to the one shot and hold. anyway....


I see the bifi as a series LC for the soul reason of if it were parallel then the cap would accept the input and not through the coil, but a series LC would. And a regular series LC has no way of neutralizing the self inductance. So Tesla says that the coils internal capacitance is responsible for the neutralization of the self inductance.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 18, 2017, 09:55:19 PM
If we have a 10,000 turn bifilar inductor, it should be pretty high in inductance. It should take longer for current from dc to get to max than most coils we have experienced.

How long would it take when we apply 100v dc for the capacitance to charge to 50v between each turn, based on what criteria would one need to make that determination?

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 18, 2017, 10:07:54 PM
If we have a 10,000 turn bifilar inductor, it should be pretty high in inductance. It should take longer for current from dc to get to max than most coils we have experienced.

How long would it take when we apply 100v dc for the capacitance to charge to 50v between each turn, based on what criteria would one need to make that determination?

Mags

Taking that a bit deeper, if we compared the time it took for the inductor to allow max current from initial input, as to the time it took the capacity to be fully charged to 50v after initial input, could we say that the inductance had any influence on the time it took for the capacity to reach 50v??? ??? ;)

Weird to think about aint it? ;D

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: itsu on April 18, 2017, 10:26:18 PM
In looking at your "TBP coil resonance 1" clip I can see how you have access to the left and right sides of the coil sitting in the CD case with your Hall sensor so you can do the measurement there.  You don't have to scan around the full 360 degrees of the edge of the coil.  The whole thing is symmetrical so there is no need to make more than a single measurement.

I redid my hall sensor measurements, including the edges like mentioned by TK.

Allthough the edges show a minimum negative signal, its all around the coil as far as i could see, so no flipping over.
I used a speaker magnet to compare the results and there we see the same effect that when skimming the magnet/coil
from left to right with the hall sensor at 90° we do see a flip over of the signal on the scope.

Anyway, i think it is all explainable with the field line drawing MH put up earlier.


Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dxMgjbR90o


Regards Itsu
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: itsu on April 18, 2017, 10:27:02 PM
Another great clip like usual Itsu.  The subject of breaking up a square wave into the sum of a bunch of sine waves at different frequencies is a challenging topic to understand for people with no background in this subject matter.  The short answer is that one of the sine waves in the frequency spectrum of the square wave is at the resonant frequency of the coil, and it's only that particular frequency that makes the coil resonate.

And that is why when you are looking for resonance or just to see how a circuit responds to a frequency sweep, you never use a square wave.  Multiple different square wave frequencies will make an LC resonator like the TBP coil resonate at its resonant frequency.  That can cause errors where you think the "wrong" square wave frequency is telling you the resonant frequency of the device under test.

I agree, its a challenging topic, that like you said has to do with the fact that a square wave is made up of all kind of sine waves and will generate odd harmonics.

Itsu
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: itsu on April 18, 2017, 10:28:32 PM
How about this magic, MH: 

Here is a scopeshot of the TBF pancake coil (661 uH, FR = 273.2 kHz) being stimulated by a sine wave at the resonant frequency. The Blue trace is the source frequency,  the Yellow trace is the voltage across the current sensing resistor as used in the previous scopeshots connected as MH specified, and the Purple trace is the signal from a "pickup coil" (actually the monofilar pancake, it was the first thing handy to grab) suspended a couple of cm away from the TBF coil. Not connected (but share the common ground of course). It is clearly getting a voltage induced in it. But the current sensing resistor on the TBF coil is showing zero voltage across the resistor, which should mean no current flowing through it. Clearly, the TBF is still generating a magnetic field that alternates at its driven frequency, otherwise it could not induce a voltage in the pickup coil. Right? 

(Inspired by Gyula's questions, thanks!)


Here my results of that same setup (528uH, Fr = 320Khz).

Yellow the flatlined signal across the 10 Ohm resistor.
Blue the input signal from the FG
purple the signal across a coil dangeling 2cm in front of the TBP coil.

Detuning the frequency returns the yellow sine wave signal and leaves the both blue and purple signals the same.

Itsu
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 18, 2017, 10:59:56 PM

Here my results of that same setup (528uH, Fr = 320Khz).

Yellow the flatlined signal across the 10 Ohm resistor.
Blue the input signal from the FG
purple the signal across a coil dangeling 2cm in front of the TBP coil.

Detuning the frequency returns the yellow sine wave signal and leaves the both blue and purple signals the same.

Itsu

Nice work Its

So where do we go from there? The thread title is what it is.  Not being cynical, just is that it?  Or do we load the sec and see what we get. Or move the second coil right on top of the bifi and see what we get. Would be interesting if it is all just normal transformer action. But for me this is not what I think tesla was intending with his discovery, thats why I didnt include the resonance test in my list of 3 tests.  Here is why..

If you can measure the inductance, resitance and capacitance, does it jive with the result on the test equipment? Are we in the range of res freq calculated? If so, then this is not the way Tesla intended his discovery to be operated, for one reason only..... It doesnt show the 'neutralization of inductance" he describes. If the res freq situation were to show such we wouldnt have a resonant freq because the induction element would be lost. LC with no L. So it is good to show what you guys have shown, as it proves we need to look at it a different way in how we are to achieve his claimed effect. ;D I already knew that and thats why I claimed I wasnt looking for resonance effects earlier in the thead, of which may boot me out of the conversation. :o   But if it is teslas bifilar coil we are looking into, then we should continue on to see what else we can do with this coil in reference to Teslas claims. I believe it is in dc discharge is where we should be heading because I believe that is where we will see his claim come into effect and be able to fully charge the capacitance without influence of inductance and only impeded by resistance. And if someone answers my question on the last page, if they believe that all the pairs of turns are fully charged immediately, by measuring the potential between turns at the time of external input, then we can say good by to the resistance impedance also and the cap gets fully charged without delay. But I think resistance 'may' play a part, but we will see.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 18, 2017, 11:04:43 PM
Nice work Its

So where do we go from there? The thread title is what it is.  Not being cynical, just is that it?  Or do we load the sec and see what we get. Or move the second coil right on top of the bifi and see what we get. Would be interesting if it is all just normal transformer action. But for me this is not what I think tesla was intending with his discovery, thats why I didnt include the resonance test in my list of 3 tests.  Here is why..

If you can measure the inductance, resitance and capacitance, does it jive with the result on the test equipment? Are we in the range of res freq calculated? If so, then this is not the way Tesla intended his discovery to be operated, for one reason only..... It doesnt show the 'neutralization of inductance" he describes. If the res freq situation were to show such we wouldnt have a resonant freq because the induction element would be lost. LC with no L. So it is good to show what you guys have shown, as it proves we need to look at it a different way in how were are to achieve his claimed effect. ;D I already knew that and thats why I claimed I wasnt looking for resonance effects earlier in the thead, of which may boot me out of the conversation. :o   But if it is teslas bifilar coil we are looking into, then we should continue on to see what else we can do with this coil in reference to Teslas claims. I believe it is in dc discharge is where we should be heading because I believe that is where we will see his claim come into effect and be able to fully charge the capacitance without influence of inductance and only impeded by resistance. And if someone answers my question on the last page, if they believe that all the pairs of turns are fully charged immediately, by measuring the potential between turns at the time of external input, then we can say good by to the resistance impedance also and the cap gets fully charged without delay. But I think resistance 'may' play a part, but we will see.

Mags

@Mags,

The coil goes past the cancellation phase and accrues "Negative Henries". This factor measures gain in the coil's magnetic field.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 18, 2017, 11:10:10 PM
@Mags,

The coil goes past the cancellation phase and accrues "Negative Henries". This factor measures gain in the coil's magnetic field.

What does that all mean man?  That is like, who would understand that statement as a whole?

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 18, 2017, 11:19:42 PM
What does that all mean man?  That is like, who would understand that statement as a whole?

Mags

The coil field increase factors directly into electrical power units that can be deducted from the input for an accurate COP. A negative Henry is the measure of the coil's magnetic field strength! Joseph Henry's formula of Inductance allows us to measure the field strength in units of negative inductance, and give that an equivalent value in electrical power units.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 18, 2017, 11:49:32 PM
@Mags,

If you have an Inductance meter, try hooking it up to the coil while you run your frequency scan, and see at exactly what frequency the Inductance drops to zero. Any reading that appeared with a minus sign in front would indicate the presence of a magnetic field.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 19, 2017, 12:01:48 AM
The coil field increase factors directly into electrical power units that can be deducted from the input for an accurate COP. A negative Henry is the measure of the coil's magnetic field strength! Joseph Henry's formula of Inductance allows us to measure the field strength in units of negative inductance, and give that an equivalent value in electrical power units.

I just love it when you refute your own nonsense yourself, with information you find when finally googling the terms you misuse so flagrantly.
Nowhere in those various equivalent expressions for the Henry does an expression for ELECTRICAL POWER exist. ELECTRICAL POWER is measured in WATTS, the units of which are Joules/second. You will note that I TOLD YOU several times earlier that the Henry can be expressed as Joules/ampere2, which DOES appear in that chain of equivalent expressions. If a "negative henry" is "equivalent" to "watt-hour" as you have repeatedly claimed.... since the watt-hour is an expression of ENERGY NOT POWER...  you once again are getting all tangled up with your own claims and the solid refutations from the material you yourself post.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 19, 2017, 12:08:16 AM
@Mags,

If you have an Inductance meter, try hooking it up to the coil while you run your frequency scan, and see at exactly what frequency the Inductance drops to zero. Any reading that appeared with a minus sign in front would indicate the presence of a magnetic field.

And if you damage your delicate inductance meter by applying a voltage from your FG while doing this, I'm sure Synchro will happily pay for a replacement. Won't he?

The presence of an alternating magnetic field is indicated by the ability of the coil to induce an alternating voltage in a nearby coil... something that has been shown to occur throughout the frequency ranges scanned. Of course one needs to be able to interpret oscilloscope screens to see this fact.

Furthermore, the inductance of coils we are testing never "drops to zero" and this is clearly indicated by the results of the frequency scans.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 19, 2017, 12:17:22 AM
TK

Are you able to power a small load(E.G an LED) from a pickup coil(secondary) placed on top of the BPC,without it effecting this zero voltage across your CVR.?


Brad

No, when powering a LED load at the TBF's resonant frequency the CVR voltage trace does not quite "flatline" any more, it indicates about half a milliamp at flattest. This is with just enough amplitude of the signal input to the TBF to produce a slight glow in the LED. Of course if I go off the resonant frequency I can get a lot more power to drive the LED much more brightly from the pickup coil, especially if I go to the pickup coil's own resonant frequency, as the previous frequency scans show. The CVR trace grows then too. 

Here's a scopeshot of the "flattest" CVR line while powering a slightly glowing LED from the pickup coil. Yellow=CVR trace, with the current value shown being a little smaller than actual because the scope thinks I'm using a 10 ohm CVR but actually I'm using 9.4 ohms. Blue = across LED and pickup coil.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 19, 2017, 12:42:53 AM
No, when powering a LED load at the TBF's resonant frequency the CVR voltage trace does not quite "flatline" any more, it indicates about half a milliamp at flattest. This is with just enough amplitude of the signal input to the TBF to produce a slight glow in the LED. Of course if I go off the resonant frequency I can get a lot more power to drive the LED much more brightly from the pickup coil, especially if I go to the pickup coil's own resonant frequency, as the previous frequency scans show. The CVR trace grows then too. 

Here's a scopeshot of the "flattest" CVR line while powering a slightly glowing LED from the pickup coil. Yellow=CVR trace, with the current value shown being a little smaller than actual because the scope thinks I'm using a 10 ohm CVR but actually I'm using 9.4 ohms. Blue = across LED and pickup coil.

So in your first paragraph you are saying you get more induced into the secondary by not being at resonance with the input than if you are at resonance? That was the statement before especially with a freq of the sec res freq.


Are the bumps showing the 'off res freq' you are using?

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 19, 2017, 03:50:15 AM
So in your first paragraph you are saying you get more induced into the secondary by not being at resonance with the input than if you are at resonance? That was the statement before especially with a freq of the sec res freq.


Mags

Hmm, well i just have to see for myself with my setup.  I just dont get that. 

Will see.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 19, 2017, 04:23:17 AM
So in your first paragraph you are saying you get more induced into the secondary by not being at resonance with the input than if you are at resonance? That was the statement before especially with a freq of the sec res freq.

Yes. Take a look again at the frequency scan attached below. You can see that the most voltage induced in the "secondary" happens at its own resonant frequency (great purple peaks at about 1.24 MHz) not at the resonant frequency of the TBF "primary" (the frequency of the "notch" in the CVR yellow trace at 273.2 kHz).

Quote


Are the bumps showing the 'off res freq' you are using?

Mags

That scopeshot was taken at the resonant frequency of the TBF "primary" (look at top right for the frequency counter measurement) which is where the CVR trace flatlines under no load condition. I think the bumps in the Blue trace are the "secondary" trying to resonate at its own frequency of about 1.24 MHz, a bit over 4 times the primary resonant frequency. Because of the way I had the LED oriented polarity wise, the LED is turning on at the flat bottom of the Blue trace and the top parts with the bumps are when the LED is reverse-biased and not lit. I think.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 19, 2017, 04:46:53 AM
I would just like to point out something here.

The Henry, denoted by H, is a scalar quantity and is the measure of inductance in the SI system.

On the other hand, H is a vector quantity that denotes the magnetizing field strength, and is not named after Joseph Henry and is not a measure of inductance. Its common units are Amperes/Meter. It is most certainly NOT equivalent to H, the Henry, the measure of inductance. The symbol "H" was assigned to this quantity in about 1850 by Lord Kelvin, who apparently picked the letters B and H at random.

Furthermore, there is a difference between the "negative" of a quantity and the "inverse" of a quantity.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/magfield.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_field
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 19, 2017, 06:36:53 AM
To help understand this stuff, I am going to take a crack at a mechanical version of the parallel LC circuit acting as an infinite impedance at resonance.  However, next posting because this page has the wide sickness.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 19, 2017, 06:37:51 AM
Are we on a new page?   Okay a fresh start on a new page.

We know the parallel LC resonator acts like an infinite impedance at resonance.  That means no power flows trough it, and therefore it is a no load device.

Imagine a large vertical spring on the floor with a heavy weight on top of it.   When you push down on the weight and let go the system resonates up and down at it's natural frequency.

Let's suppose the natural frequency is quite low, say two cycles per second.  Now imagine a person siting next to the resonating weight and spring system.  Imagine his coordination is very good and his hand is over the weight and moving up and down in perfect sync with the oscillating weight.

So, what do you see?  It _looks_ like the person is making the weight resonate up and down, but it's a fake-out.  The person is not applying any pressure on the weight at all, the system is self-resonating.  The person is not doing any work at all.

The person's oscillating arm is the function generator set on sine wave.  To be specific the _velocity_ of the person's hand is in the form of a sine wave which is like the voltage, and if he had to apply pressure to the weight, that would be the current.

Now, let's make one concession to the real world because we know that the resonant system will decay over time if you don't put some mechanical power into it.  Let's ignore air friction and focus on the spring as a lossy spring.  The spring will heat up just like the proverbial bending of the coat hanger and that friction will dampen the resonant oscillation.

So in the "real world" as the person's hand follows the up and down sine wave motion of the weight, every now and then he applies just the tiniest amount of pressure to the weight to ensure that the resonance remains at the same amplitude.

So when the person puts just a little touch of mechanical power in the resonating spring and weight system to keep the amplitude stable and compensate for the resistive looses in the spring, likewise the function generator puts a little touch of electrical power into the parallel LC resonator to compensate for the resistive losses in the inductor.

That gives you a basic idea of what is talking place.  However, it really needs work to get it 100% bang on and I am not going there.  Likewise I am not going to delve into a mechanical equivalent of a series LC resonator.

The big takeaway is this "no power flow/no load" condition all only works at the resonant frequency where the excitation (moving hand) is a perfect sine wave.  If you deviate from that set of conditions it simply doesn't work.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 19, 2017, 01:13:14 PM
I just love it when you refute your own nonsense yourself, with information you find when finally googling the terms you misuse so flagrantly.
Nowhere in those various equivalent expressions for the Henry does an expression for ELECTRICAL POWER exist. ELECTRICAL POWER is measured in WATTS, the units of which are Joules/second. You will note that I TOLD YOU several times earlier that the Henry can be expressed as Joules/ampere2, which DOES appear in that chain of equivalent expressions. If a "negative henry" is "equivalent" to "watt-hour" as you have repeatedly claimed.... since the watt-hour is an expression of ENERGY NOT POWER...  you once again are getting all tangled up with your own claims and the solid refutations from the material you yourself post.

@Tinselkoala.

What do you call an ampere second at one volt? Joseph Henry defines the H as The amount of inductance (Coiled wire) it would require to generate one volt by varying a current by one ampere per second across the inductor.

Definition of Watt Hour:

"A Watt Hour is a measure of electrical energy equivalent to a power consumption of one watt for one hour".

You falsely state that a "Watt Hour" is energy but not power, when the truth is it's equal to power!

You twist the other very valuable word to cause the kind of Gnomic mischief you're notorious for? Who can find a negative when it's past zero? Coupled with compulsive adolescent insults and abuse, snickering to yourself, through your schlag covered face.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 19, 2017, 01:35:07 PM
Times up: The ampere second at one volt is a "Watt Second". A watt second times seconds and minutes (60)x(60)= 3600 watt seconds=One "Watt Hour". That's equal to a consumption of one Watt for one hour. A "Watt Hour" equals 3600 Coulombs.

Electrical power input to an induction coil generates a magnetic field. The field force measured in a coil of 1 Henry with one watt hour of power stored in it's magnetic field equals 1 Tesla of magnetic flux density.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 19, 2017, 02:16:34 PM
@Tinselkoala,

You need to start with the "Magnetic Coulomb" law:

"In physics, the magnetic Coulomb law is the magnetic equivalent of the electric Coulomb law".

"The magnitude of the electrostatic force of attraction between two point charges is directly proportional to the product of the magnitudes of charges and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 19, 2017, 02:38:09 PM
@Tinselkoala,

Ponder on this:

"The unit for magnetic reluctance is inverse henry, H−1".

"Magnetic reluctance, or magnetic resistance, is a concept used in the analysis of magnetic circuits. It is analogous to resistance in an electrical circuit, but rather than dissipating electric energy it stores magnetic energy".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 19, 2017, 02:49:25 PM
@Tinselkoala.

What do you call an ampere second at one volt? Joseph Henry defines the H as The amount of inductance (Coiled wire) it would require to generate one volt by varying a current by one ampere per second across the inductor.

Definition of Watt Hour:

"A Watt Hour is a measure of electrical energy equivalent to a power consumption of one watt for one hour".

You falsely state that a "Watt Hour" is energy but not power, when the truth is it's equal to power!

You twist the other very valuable word to cause the kind of Gnomic mischief you're notorious for? Who can find a negative when it's past zero? Coupled with compulsive adolescent insults and abuse, snickering to yourself, through your schlag covered face.


I think that exist a misunderstood or a fault of communication about this subject . Watt and Wh have different definitions .

A watt (W) is a unit of power, and power is the rate at which energy (joules) is produced or consumed in a second .

A watt-hour (Wh) is a unit of energy; it’s a way to measure the amount of work performed or generated  in one hour
 joules X time 3600S =Wh   

watt-hours measure amounts of energy for the specific period of time of one hour, and watts measure rates of power at a moment in time.

Just to clarify

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 19, 2017, 02:59:49 PM
@nelsonrochaa,

Thanks for the clarification. Consider this:


"Ørsted discovered the connection between magnetism and electric current when a magnetic field produced by a current-carrying copper bar deflected a magnetised needle during a lecture demonstration".


"In the CGS system, the unit of the H-field is the oersted and the unit of the B‑field is the gauss. In the SI system, the unit ampere per meter (A/m), which is equivalent to newton/weber, is used for the H‑field and the unit of tesla is used for the B‑field".

"H is measured in units of amperes per meter (symbol: A⋅m−1 or A/m) in the SI. B is measured in teslas (symbol: T)".


This is what you need to understand: The H field is an electrical equivalent and the B field a magnetic one.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 19, 2017, 03:18:05 PM
Coulomb's "Law of magnetics" helped couple the "Oersted" as a measure of electrical current H field, with the Gauss B field, a measure of magnetic strength. This is the base equivalency unit of Joseph Henries formula.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 19, 2017, 03:26:51 PM

I think that exist a misunderstood or a fault of communication about this subject . Watt and Wh have different definitions .

A watt (W) is a unit of power, and power is the rate at which energy (joules) is produced or consumed in a second .

A watt-hour (Wh) is a unit of energy; it’s a way to measure the amount of work performed or generated  in one hour
 joules X time 3600S =Wh   

watt-hours measure amounts of energy for the specific period of time of one hour, and watts measure rates of power at a moment in time.

Just to clarify

Nelson Rocha

Hey nelson

From your description it would seem they are the same as in a measurement in time, where one is over the period of an hour but the other is over the period of 1 second.

Like there may be special reasoning for using one or the other where the Wh there may be many ups and downs and it gives us an average use over the hour time period and the W would more than likely be a more consistent power usage over the period of 1 sec. But it seems more like the same measurement, just one is kilograms and the other is just grams in analogy to time as in hour and 1 sec where they both are just scaled for sake of making numbers smaller like 1Mw or saying 1,000,000w.  or having to say 1/60 of an hour instead of 1 sec.

So it seems you could interchange the Wh and W in some formula just the ref to time of each would be the end result.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 19, 2017, 03:31:37 PM
Hey nelson

From your description it would seem they are the same as in a measurement in time, where one is over the period of an hour but the other is over the period of 1 second.

Like there may be special reasoning for using one or the other where the Wh there may be many ups and downs and it gives us an average use over the hour time period and the W would more than likely be a more consistent power usage over the period of 1 sec. But it seems more like the same measurement, just one is kilograms and the other is just grams in analogy to time as in hour and 1 sec where they both are just scaled for sake of making numbers smaller like 1Mw or saying 1,000,000w.  or having to say 1/60 of an hour instead of 1 sec.

So it seems you could interchange the Wh and W in some formula just the ref to time of each would be the end result.

Mags

@Mags,

Exactly! Same SI units.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 19, 2017, 03:44:43 PM
                                                          1 Gauss ≒ 1 Oersted.

  Factor that into your "Dervish Account"!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 19, 2017, 03:57:35 PM
How would you choose to denote the energy exchange in a single cycle as compared to many cycles?

If I have 1V @ 1A for a single cycle is that the same as for 1000 cycles?

If that single  cycle takes 1 second,, or if the 1000 cycles take 1 second,, how would you compare them?

I was just interpreting what I think Nelson was saying. watt is a watt, and the difference between the Wh and W according to nelson they are the same just read over different periods of time. So it is like saying that the Kg is not the same as mg in a way.

I suppose you would have to average them out. Id say as long as you have at least 1 full ac cycle that the average should equate to that fraction of an hour if it were measured in 1 sec. If in 1 sec you only measured 1/4 wave of the ac cycle, that would not give an accurate depiction of power used over a longer period of time. Thus the Wh? 

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: itsu on April 19, 2017, 04:07:11 PM

Quote
Quote from: tinman on April 18, 2017, 10:26:14 AM (http://overunity.com/17186/the-bifilar-pancake-coil-at-its-resonant-frequency/msg504764/#msg504764)

TK

Are you able to power a small load(E.G an LED) from a pickup coil(secondary) placed on top of the BPC,without it effecting this zero voltage across your CVR.?

Brad


No, when powering a LED load at the TBF's resonant frequency the CVR voltage trace does not quite "flatline" any more, it indicates about half a milliamp at flattest. This is with just enough amplitude of the signal input to the TBF to produce a slight glow in the LED. Of course if I go off the resonant frequency I can get a lot more power to drive the LED much more brightly from the pickup coil, especially if I go to the pickup coil's own resonant frequency, as the previous frequency scans show. The CVR trace grows then too. 

Here's a scopeshot of the "flattest" CVR line while powering a slightly glowing LED from the pickup coil. Yellow=CVR trace, with the current value shown being a little smaller than actual because the scope thinks I'm using a 10 ohm CVR but actually I'm using 9.4 ohms. Blue = across LED and pickup coil.

Trying that too shows that my led on the pickup coil does not light up when at the resonance frequency (313KHz) of the TBP coil.
When shifting the frequency to the pickup coil resonance frequency (2.5Mhz), it does light up the led.

Adding a 3nF cap parallel to the pickup coil / led lowers the resonance frequency to 313Khz which is where the TBP coil resonance frequency was
and now does light up the led brightly on 313Khz.

However, the resonance frequency of the TBP coil now has shifted to 389Khz, so no more flatlined current / resonance at 313Khz.

Its like pressing a balloon, it gives way, but expands somewhere else.

Itsu
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 19, 2017, 04:11:13 PM
   Ampere = Coulomb / second

If a coulomb is a gauss, the magnetic field of the wire can be figured out in a flash.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 19, 2017, 04:20:25 PM
Or if that full cycle is in 0.001seconds.

Energy and power,, energy you could say is 1 cycle,, power is how many of those cycles you have per second or hour.

They may be sort of the same unit but they are not saying the exact same thing,, potential to do work and how much work is done,, I could vacuum the floors today <= potential,, I vacuumed the floors today <=work done  :)

Ok, cool.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 19, 2017, 04:25:29 PM

No, when powering a LED load at the TBF's resonant frequency the CVR voltage trace does not quite "flatline" any more, it indicates about half a milliamp at flattest. This is with just enough amplitude of the signal input to the TBF to produce a slight glow in the LED. Of course if I go off the resonant frequency I can get a lot more power to drive the LED much more brightly from the pickup coil, especially if I go to the pickup coil's own resonant frequency, as the previous frequency scans show. The CVR trace grows then too. 

Here's a scopeshot of the "flattest" CVR line while powering a slightly glowing LED from the pickup coil. Yellow=CVR trace, with the current value shown being a little smaller than actual because the scope thinks I'm using a 10 ohm CVR but actually I'm using 9.4 ohms. Blue = across LED and pickup coil.


Trying that too shows that my led on the pickup coil does not light up when at the resonance frequency (313KHz) of the TBP coil.
When shifting the frequency to the pickup coil resonance frequency (2.5Mhz), it does light up the led.

Adding a 3nF cap parallel to the pickup coil / led lowers the resonance frequency to 313Khz which is where the TBP coil resonance frequency was
and now does light up the led brightly on 313Khz.

However, the resonance frequency of the TBP coil now has shifted to 389Khz, so no more flatlined current / resonance at 313Khz.

Its like pressing a balloon, it gives way, but expands somewhere else.

Itsu

Well i believe you guys. It just seems odd that at resonance the initial scope shot showing unloaded regular coil as producing the highest output, yet loaded it is not the case and reacts oppositely, it seems.

Soo what if we have identically tuned tbf? I have 1 more roll of the flat 14ga. Gunna wind that up.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 19, 2017, 04:41:15 PM
@Tinselkoala,

Ponder on this:

"The unit for magnetic reluctance is inverse henry, H−1".

"Magnetic reluctance, or magnetic resistance, is a concept used in the analysis of magnetic circuits. It is analogous to resistance in an electrical circuit, but rather than dissipating electric energy it stores magnetic energy".

Ah HAH. Here we have it. Ponder upon this:  You forgot, or deliberately did not put, the "-1" as an EXPONENT. The INVERSE Henry is NOT A NEGATIVE HENRY. It is 1/H, not -H.  H-1 is the INVERSE, not a NEGATIVE.

So here we have one root of your insane "Negative Henry". There is no such thing. There is, OF COURSE, magnetic reluctance which is expressed in INVERSE HENRY, that is, 1/H.   

You simply do not understand basic math, algebra, calculus or math notation, as this post of yours ONCE AGAIN proves. I love it when your googling refutes you so soundly and obviously.





Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 19, 2017, 04:45:46 PM
   Ampere = Coulomb / second

If a coulomb is a gauss, the magnetic field of the wire can be figured out in a flash.

But a coulomb is not a gauss. 

Do you think a mile per hour is a square mile?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 19, 2017, 04:53:51 PM
Well i believe you guys. It just seems odd that at resonance the initial scope shot showing unloaded regular coil as producing the highest output, yet loaded it is not the case and reacts oppositely, it seems.

Soo what if we have identically tuned tbf? I have 1 more roll of the flat 14ga. Gunna wind that up.

Mags

No, the frequency scans do not show that the unloaded regular coil produces the highest output, or at least the greatest induced voltage,  at the TBF "primary" coil's resonant frequency. Look again at the scan. In these slow scans, frequency is the x-axis, increasing from left to right, and the height of the trace is the "output" voltage. The CVR in series with the TBF primary is the Yellow trace and where it "pinches" to flatline is the frequency of its resonance, confirmed three different ways. But this frequency, as you can see, does not coincide with the maximum voltage induced in the "secondary" pickup coil. The maximum voltage induced in the pickup coil occurs at its own resonant frequency.

Yes, tuning the coils with added capacitance or by clever winding so that both have the same resonant frequency may have interesting effects. Then you have what is called "dual resonance" and this is frequently (haha) exploited by builders of solid-state Tesla coils (look up DRSSTC for some nice ones.)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 19, 2017, 04:59:28 PM

Resonance is an interesting subject, we are informed of it being a single frequency phenomena.....blah blah blah.... if we were to really align ourselves with the core message, Tesla's, we would be trying to establish this condition each time the inductance opposes change!  (this is when you are supposed to get up and dance....) This is new territory, uncharted, here who gives a shit about the single sine frequency as it relates to self induction and capacity of the system at the make, and at the break.....it does not apply, hell, capacity and self induction themselves are not what we are taught they are at these key instances!  I have been saying this forever, FUCK SINGLE FREQUENCY RESONANCE CONCEPTS! You people keep listening to the wannabe authorities and are missing the damn point!


Why is it so difficult to stick with what is right in your face....not a question.....fuck a charge....acknowledge and respect the induced and its relation to both self induction and capacity!

You all read the patent....good....you all studied the patent....great...but you are taking it at face value....not good...he gave you a capacitor, that is so fucking obvious....HELLO!!!  But not just any capacitor, this one is off the fucking chain.  Tesla was a master at misdirection, as soon as he gives you a holy shit moment, while he has your undivided attention, he immediately fucks you by instructing you to make a connection between the two plates, he sings you a lullaby, that's right, he sings your lazy asses to sleep as he elaborates on how  fascinating the connection is and how you gain proximity stress.....you take his word for it, wire the capacitor up and operate it like the inductor that it became......you do what he says because hey...it's Tesla...stupid....



As is, the coil is to be operated in an AC system.  The coil as it should have been presented would be operating in a pulsed DC system or an interrupted AC system.   Self induction, capacity and frequency are all related....till they aren't....  We are trained to limit them, they (the aforenamed) don't receive this training.... The LC you are looking for is series, but not for the reasons you are suggesting.  You do not want to neutralize the self induction ( :'(  but Tesla said....LOL.....) you want to neutralize the "negative" effects associated with self induction...lemme grab a straw or two here.......current limiting....maybe....that ties into time constants...maybe....

In the first part and that last part, are you hinting that if we pulse the coil we would see other or another freq that will show up that is not the res freq we have been looking at so far?

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 19, 2017, 05:01:13 PM
No, the frequency scans do not show that the unloaded regular coil produces the highest output, or at least the greatest induced voltage,  at the TBF "primary" coil's resonant frequency. Look again at the scan. In these slow scans, frequency is the x-axis, increasing from left to right, and the height of the trace is the "output" voltage. The CVR in series with the TBF primary is the Yellow trace and where it "pinches" to flatline is the frequency of its resonance, confirmed three different ways. But this frequency, as you can see, does not coincide with the maximum voltage induced in the "secondary" pickup coil. The maximum voltage induced in the pickup coil occurs at its own resonant frequency.

Yes, tuning the coils with added capacitance or by clever winding so that both have the same resonant frequency may have interesting effects. Then you have what is called "dual resonance" and this is frequently (haha) exploited by builders of solid-state Tesla coils (look up DRSSTC for some nice ones.)

i was talking about the 'Hey MH here is some magic' scope shot of using the regular coil as a pickup and flat line yel trace(at 200mv scale)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 19, 2017, 05:07:17 PM
@nelsonrochaa,

Thanks for the clarification. Consider this:


"Ørsted discovered the connection between magnetism and electric current when a magnetic field produced by a current-carrying copper bar deflected a magnetised needle during a lecture demonstration".


"In the CGS system, the unit of the H-field is the oersted and the unit of the B‑field is the gauss. In the SI system, the unit ampere per meter (A/m), which is equivalent to newton/weber, is used for the H‑field and the unit of tesla is used for the B‑field".

"H is measured in units of amperes per meter (symbol: A⋅m−1 or A/m) in the SI. B is measured in teslas (symbol: T)".


This is what you need to understand: The H field is an electrical equivalent and the B field a magnetic one.



Hi synchro1,
I just try show you that are some type of misunderstood between you and TK in relation to that theme of definition of what is  W and Wh
nothing more . what TK refers is what is agreed and write in actual conventional laws.
 
I know what is H field and a B field i have a meter do measure that values and you have right about that point .
Thanks
https://youtu.be/N3CjCNeH8rE?t=431

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 19, 2017, 05:08:07 PM
gauss tesla (T) 0.0001 weber/sq.metre tesla (T) 1 ampere-hour coulomb (C) 3,600
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 19, 2017, 05:23:27 PM
1 Coulomb= 1 Gauss

1 Watt Hour= 1 Tesla.

A negative number multiplied by a positive integer can only yield numbers of a negative value. Like the negative one for exponent to the right and above the "H".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 19, 2017, 05:54:10 PM
I was just interpreting what I think Nelson was saying. watt is a watt, and the difference between the Wh and W according to nelson they are the same just read over different periods of time. So it is like saying that the Kg is not the same as mg in a way.

No, the watt is a _rate_ and the watt-hour is a _quantity_. The watt is a rate of energy of one Joule per second passing a measurement point -- Like a mile per hour, it is a rate of "things" passing a measurement point in a unit of time. The watt-hour is a quantity, like miles is a quantity of distance, or what you read on the odometer, not the speedometer. Joules/second (watt) multiplied by time (seconds, hours whatever) gives you a quantity, a number of joules. 

They are not the same thing by any means, and this is most certainly NOT like saying the Kg is not the same as the mg. It is like saying the mile per hour is not the same thing as the mile.

Quote
I suppose you would have to average them out. Id say as long as you have at least 1 full ac cycle that the average should equate to that fraction of an hour if it were measured in 1 sec. If in 1 sec you only measured 1/4 wave of the ac cycle, that would not give an accurate depiction of power used over a longer period of time. Thus the Wh? 

Mags

Now you are getting all tangled up. Yes, to calculate or measure the number of Joules in a given time interval, you look at the power (watts, joules per second) and multiply that by the time involved (fractions of a second, days, weeks, whatever, reduced to seconds). Joules/second times seconds = joules. It's basic algebra!
The "Watt-hour"  means watts x time and results in an answer in joules. (Joules/second) x (seconds/minute) x (minutes/hour) = Joules !!  Algebra! The time units cancel and leave you with only joules, a _quantity_. Not a _rate_ like watt.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 19, 2017, 05:59:04 PM
1 Coulomb= 1 Gauss

1 Watt Hour= 1 Tesla.

A negative number multiplied by a positive integer can only yield numbers of a negative value. Like the negative one for exponent to the right and above the "H".

Wrong three times in one little post.

1 coulomb is not one gauss -- that is why they have different names, BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING. One watt-hour is not 1 tesla, and

a negative exponent means INVERSE, not "negative value".  X-1 equals 1/X, not some "negative value". Basic algebra !!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 19, 2017, 06:03:27 PM
No, the watt is a _rate_ and the watt-hour is a _quantity_. The watt is a rate of energy of one Joule per second passing a measurement point -- Like a mile per hour, it is a rate of "things" passing a measurement point in a unit of time. The watt-hour is a quantity, like miles is a quantity of distance, or what you read on the odometer, not the speedometer. Joules/second (watt) multiplied by time (seconds, hours whatever) gives you a quantity, a number of joules. 

They are not the same thing by any means, and this is most certainly NOT like saying the Kg is not the same as the mg. It is like saying the mile per hour is not the same thing as the mile.

Now you are getting all tangled up. Yes, to calculate or measure the number of Joules in a given time interval, you look at the power (watts, joules per second) and multiply that by the time involved (fractions of a second, days, weeks, whatever, reduced to seconds). Joules/second times seconds = joules. It's basic algebra!
The "Watt-hour"  means watts x time and results in an answer in joules. (Joules/second) x (seconds/minute) x (minutes/hour) = Joules !!  Algebra! The time units cancel and leave you with only joules, a _quantity_. Not a _rate_ like watt.

Nice explanation ;)
I think is completely and clear about this subject.
Thanks
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 19, 2017, 06:11:56 PM
Nelson, I'm glad we agree on this basic algebra.

And now we are beginning to see where synchro has gone off the rails. He clearly doesn't get that the Inverse is not the Negative. X-1 is equal to 1/X, not some negative value. And the H (scalar unit of induction) of the Henry is not the same as the  H (vector quantity)of the magnetizing field strength. He apparently has confused these two very different things in his mind, because of the use of the same letter for both. But the H of the field strength is a letter chosen at random by Lord Kelvin in 1850, and has nothing to do with the assignment of the name Henry and the letter H as abbreviation for the unit of inductance.

For Synchro: When letters are Bolded like that it is not done for emphasis. It is a common way to indicate that the quantity referred to is a _vector_ not a scalar. But I don't expect you to understand the difference, since the math is obviously over your head. You should however be capable of clearly understanding that the "H" of inductance is not the same thing as the "H" of magnetic field strength. Or am I giving you too much credit?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 19, 2017, 08:21:55 PM
Wrong three times in one little post.

1 coulomb is not one gauss -- that is why they have different names, BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING. One watt-hour is not 1 tesla, and

a negative exponent means INVERSE, not "negative value".  X-1 equals 1/X, not some "negative value". Basic algebra !!


@Tinselkoala,


Look again for the equal signs!


The negative Henry is the same as the Inverse Henry. Why don't you try and calm down?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 19, 2017, 08:33:31 PM
@Tinselkoala,


 You have been unflatterinly compared to "Thamsanqa Jantjie", Barack O'bama's fake deaf sign interrurpreter. When are you gonna knock the childlike antics off and settle down and act nice?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 19, 2017, 09:05:37 PM
I see knobody will answer my earlier questions so far, so Ill pose them again...

If we have a 100t tbf coil and we apply 100v dc, how long would it take for there to be 50v between all pairs of adjacent turns in the coil and what criteria do you consider determines the given answer, if it is ever given a shot. ::)

Would one say that the 50v would be there between each turn only after the inductor has reached full current?


Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: itsu on April 19, 2017, 11:12:00 PM

Trying to merge the resonance frequencies of the TBP coil with that of the pickup coil is not that easy.

The screenshot (sweeping from 10KHz to 1MHz) shows the resonance frequency (the voltage this time) of the TBP coil in yellow around 300Khz.
The resonance frequency of the pickup coil in purple is around 500Khz and also picks up the 300Khz resonance frequency of the TBP coil.
Blue is the sweep signal from the FG.

I used a combination of fixed capacitors and variable capacitors to try to merge them, but they won't really, (guess i really have to look
into TK's mentioned DRSSTC) see video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH2YvExpMm4&feature=youtu.be



Itsu
 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 19, 2017, 11:37:25 PM
Itsu, It looks like you are getting very close to having the same resonant frequency on both "primary" and "secondary". I don't know what the result would be when you get them perfectly matched; in DRSSTCs it results in maximum power transfer between the coils, I think.

It would be very nice to be able to look at these things with a Spectrum Analyzer. Our scopes can probably do limited FFT analysis (mine can but it really sucks) that would be helpful but my scope's FFT function, even when working well,  is a poor substitute for a genuine Spectrum Analyzer. Maybe that's why really good SAs often cost more than a house and car put together.  I wonder if anyone posting experiments here has access to a proper SA.


Mags, why is this "unflattering comparison" photo, which is nothing more than TOS violation, personal attack and childish insult, allowed to remain in view?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: gyulasun on April 19, 2017, 11:58:25 PM

...
I used a combination of fixed capacitors and variable capacitors to try to merge them, but they won't really, (guess i really have to look
into TK's mentioned DRSSTC) see video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH2YvExpMm4&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH2YvExpMm4&feature=youtu.be)

Itsu

Hi Itsu,

I think you would need to make the pancake's self resonant frequency a little bit tunable by connecting a max 100 pF variable cap in parallel with it first and then approach the pickup coil near to it with its own variable cap. 
The detuning factor mutually affecting both coils resonances is the distance between them i.e. coupling between them. Any time you change the distance, you would have to retune both coils, this means you need coils to be tunable to both directions, up and down.   I do not think a  max 100  pF extra cap across the pancake would influence meaningfully any other properties of it other than its self resonant frequency.
The so called critical coupling would bring the most favorable response between the coils like in band pass filter cases.

Addition: I think any time there is a double peak created in the response then overcoupling is happening, this means you need to increase the distance between the two coils and retune their variable capacitors a little. 

Gyula
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: skycollection 1 on April 20, 2017, 02:43:03 AM
In this video i am presenting a curious effect, the experiment consist in one big pancake coil connected to the circuit JL94 is driving a motor with a neoball inside of a plastic container, on top of the pancake coil i placed five PANCAKE COILS, (pickup coils) made of thin wire and all the pancake coils have a led bulb. The neoball turns at very high speed and when the magnet pases infront of the pickup coils "induces" a current that turn on all the bulb leds. This is the experiment....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZaYpYOFvL4
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 20, 2017, 06:17:52 AM
I see knobody will answer my earlier questions so far, so Ill pose them again...

If we have a 100t tbf coil and we apply 100v dc, how long would it take for there to be 50v between all pairs of adjacent turns in the coil and what criteria do you consider determines the given answer, if it is ever given a shot. ::)

Would one say that the 50v would be there between each turn only after the inductor has reached full current?

Mags

Ignoring the speed of light, it's instantaneous.  However, just because there is 50 volts between two adjacent conductors and there is a measurable transient distributed capacitance between those two conductors does not mean that there is instantly an excess negative charge on one conductor and a lack of negative charge on the other conductor.  Any charge displacement to charge this transient capacitance would still have to flow in the form of current by snaking its way through the spiral conductors, and that means you encounter an inductance to overcome again and the energy to do that has to come from somewhere.  At the same time, the electric field is starting to push current through the coil in a conventional sense and slowly energizes the inductor.  It's very complicated with multiple things going on at the same time and in the realm of supercomputer simulation.

One part of the problem is that the bulk of the electric field flux is snaking its way through the coil and is pointed in the direction of the coil.  That electric field might manifest as a measurable potential on the surface of a conductor, but it is at right angles to any electric field that would be associated with the transient distributed inter-winding capacitance.

So we put a black box around the whole thing because it's too complicated and we just make empirical measurements of the signals that we can measure with our scope and apply our models on that.

I don't know why you want to believe that there is some "hidden magic trick" associated with a bifilar pancake coil.  What Tesla says in his patent is certainly about the reactance of the capacitance cancelling out the reactance of the inductance at resonance.  There are probably about 50 YouTube clips out there that explain this with phasor diagrams.  Phasor diagrams are more intuitive than hard mathematical analysis and you should check them out.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 20, 2017, 10:38:46 AM
Itsu, It looks like you are getting very close to having the same resonant frequency on both "primary" and "secondary". I don't know what the result would be when you get them perfectly matched; in DRSSTCs it results in maximum power transfer between the coils, I think.

It would be very nice to be able to look at these things with a Spectrum Analyzer. Our scopes can probably do limited FFT analysis (mine can but it really sucks) that would be helpful but my scope's FFT function, even when working well,  is a poor substitute for a genuine Spectrum Analyzer. Maybe that's why really good SAs often cost more than a house and car put together.  I wonder if anyone posting experiments here has access to a proper SA.


Mags, why is this "unflattering comparison" photo, which is nothing more than TOS violation, personal attack and childish insult, allowed to remain in view?

Synchro is now on moderation,until he stop's all the crap.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: itsu on April 20, 2017, 11:05:13 AM

TK, Gyula,

thanks, good suggestions, i will look at it with my (not so expensive) SA and make both coils variable (capacitance).

I think i will first need to make myself an identical TBP coil so they are already closely matched, then some variable caps (i have these
2 big 45-450pF variables) would be enough to line up their resonance points taking care not to overcouple the coils.


Itsu
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 20, 2017, 11:05:28 AM
Nelson, I'm glad we agree on this basic algebra.

And now we are beginning to see where synchro has gone off the rails. He clearly doesn't get that the Inverse is not the Negative. X-1 is equal to 1/X, not some negative value. And the H (scalar unit of induction) of the Henry is not the same as the  H (vector quantity)of the magnetizing field strength. He apparently has confused these two very different things in his mind, because of the use of the same letter for both. But the H of the field strength is a letter chosen at random by Lord Kelvin in 1850, and has nothing to do with the assignment of the name Henry and the letter H as abbreviation for the unit of inductance.

For Synchro: When letters are Bolded like that it is not done for emphasis. It is a common way to indicate that the quantity referred to is a _vector_ not a scalar. But I don't expect you to understand the difference, since the math is obviously over your head. You should however be capable of clearly understanding that the "H" of inductance is not the same thing as the "H" of magnetic field strength. Or am I giving you too much credit?

@Tinselkoala,

"A negative correlation means that there is an inverse relationship between two variables".

K is the letter from Kelvin.

Its SI derived unit is the henry (the same as the unit of inductance, although the two concepts are distinct).

I told you the negative Henry was a measure of a magnetic field, now you're trying to teach me my lesson back.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 20, 2017, 12:29:36 PM
Synchro is now on moderation,until he stop's all the crap.


Brad

He has just taken the insults and "vendetta" (his word) against me over to EF. He isn't going to stop.

But thanks.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 20, 2017, 12:35:06 PM
He has just taken the insults and "vendetta" (his word) against me over to EF. He isn't going to stop.

But thanks.

I wouldnt worry to much about the Energetic  forum to much TK,as we know what that forum is all about  $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I will approve synchro's posts,as long as there not direct insults toward fellow members.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 20, 2017, 12:37:14 PM

Resonance is an interesting subject, we are informed of it being a single frequency phenomena.....blah blah blah.... if we were to really align ourselves with the core message, Tesla's, we would be trying to establish this condition each time the inductance opposes change!  (this is when you are supposed to get up and dance....) This is new territory, uncharted, here who gives a shit about the single sine frequency as it relates to self induction and capacity of the system at the make, and at the break.....it does not apply, hell, capacity and self induction themselves are not what we are taught they are at these key instances!  I have been saying this forever, FUCK SINGLE FREQUENCY RESONANCE CONCEPTS! You people keep listening to the wannabe authorities and are missing the damn point!


Why is it so difficult to stick with what is right in your face....not a question.....fuck a charge....acknowledge and respect the induced and its relation to both self induction and capacity!

You all read the patent....good....you all studied the patent....great...but you are taking it at face value....not good...he gave you a capacitor, that is so fucking obvious....HELLO!!!  But not just any capacitor, this one is off the fucking chain.  Tesla was a master at misdirection, as soon as he gives you a holy shit moment, while he has your undivided attention, he immediately fucks you by instructing you to make a connection between the two plates, he sings you a lullaby, that's right, he sings your lazy asses to sleep as he elaborates on how  fascinating the connection is and how you gain proximity stress.....you take his word for it, wire the capacitor up and operate it like the inductor that it became......you do what he says because hey...it's Tesla...stupid....



As is, the coil is to be operated in an AC system.  The coil as it should have been presented would be operating in a pulsed DC system or an interrupted AC system.   Self induction, capacity and frequency are all related....till they aren't....  We are trained to limit them, they (the aforenamed) don't receive this training.... The LC you are looking for is series, but not for the reasons you are suggesting.  You do not want to neutralize the self induction ( :'(  but Tesla said....LOL.....) you want to neutralize the "negative" effects associated with self induction...lemme grab a straw or two here.......current limiting....maybe....that ties into time constants...maybe....

Erfinder

Your more than welcome to post here,and have your say.
But could you please refrain from using foul language.

Thanks

Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 20, 2017, 01:39:07 PM
Energy in an Inductor

"When power flows into an inductor, energy is stored in its magnetic field. When the current flowing through the inductor is increasing and di/dt becomes greater than zero, the instantaneous power in the circuit must also be greater than zero, ( P > 0 ) ie, positive which means that energy is being stored in the inductor.

Likewinse, if the current through the inductor is decreasing and di/dt is less than zero then the instantaneous power must also be less than zero, ( P < 0 ) ie, negative which means that the inductor is returning energy back into the circuit. Then by integrating the equation for power above, the total magnetic energy which is always positive, being stored in the inductor is therefore given as":


A Pint is a Pound the World Around:

No it isn't! Some impudent smug snorts. No two things can be the same. We're constantly bombarded by such preposterous inanities.

A pint is equal to a pound in weight. 1 Coulomb is equal to 1 Gauss of magnetic force.

Negative values such as Henries of inductance or current in Ampere's have negative values on our measuring instruments we're forced to assign values to.

A negative Henry is a measure of magnetic force. Negative current is measured as equal to positive current simply moving backwards. These are positive values expressed in the negative range; Not imaginary terms.

Energy stored by an Inductor:
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 20, 2017, 01:42:22 PM
I wouldnt worry to much about the Energetic  forum to much TK,as we know what that forum is all about  $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I will approve synchro's posts,as long as there not direct insults toward fellow members.


Brad

You might also try to prevent him from posting obviously incorrect "math" and spin. Like what he just posted up above, making the error about a negative correlation. An inverse relationship between variables does not mean one of them is negative or an inverse.  He is over his head with even basic algebra and he is still going on and on trying to salvage his false claims about units being equal when they aren't, and the "negative Henry" when he probably means the Inverse Henry H-1 which of course means 1/H NOT -H.

He cannot justify his bogus math and units relationship claims by a posting a proper chain of mathematical expressions, because the claims are false. Making false claims is a violation of the Terms of Service of this forum, and carrying on a "Vendetta" against me is also a violation.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 20, 2017, 01:52:39 PM
Ignoring the speed of light, it's instantaneous.  However, just because there is 50 volts between two adjacent conductors and there is a measurable transient distributed capacitance between those two conductors does not mean that there is instantly an excess negative charge on one conductor and a lack of negative charge on the other conductor.  Any charge displacement to charge this transient capacitance would still have to flow in the form of current by snaking its way through the spiral conductors, and that means you encounter an inductance to overcome again and the energy to do that has to come from somewhere.  At the same time, the electric field is starting to push current through the coil in a conventional sense and slowly energizes the inductor.  It's very complicated with multiple things going on at the same time and in the realm of supercomputer simulation.

One part of the problem is that the bulk of the electric field flux is snaking its way through the coil and is pointed in the direction of the coil.  That electric field might manifest as a measurable potential on the surface of a conductor, but it is at right angles to any electric field that would be associated with the transient distributed inter-winding capacitance.

So we put a black box around the whole thing because it's too complicated and we just make empirical measurements of the signals that we can measure with our scope and apply our models on that.

I don't know why you want to believe that there is some "hidden magic trick" associated with a bifilar pancake coil.  What Tesla says in his patent is certainly about the reactance of the capacitance cancelling out the reactance of the inductance at resonance.  There are probably about 50 YouTube clips out there that explain this with phasor diagrams.  Phasor diagrams are more intuitive than hard mathematical analysis and you should check them out.

"I don't know why you want to believe that there is some "hidden magic trick" associated with a bifilar pancake coil."

Well I believe it is with bifi in general, not just a pancake coil. 

Ive heard through the grapevine yest that there may very well be a rabbit in the hat that may just come here very soon. Wait for it....  And Im also feeling real good about another possibility that may be even stronger in evidence of the specialty of the bifi coil. Wait for it.....

Also, on my theory, like you said its complicated, so rather than completely refute my idea, lets let testing do the talking. I wont go further into it until I am ready to do the testing. I will describe the test before I do it and variations of which may produce different outcomes. Wait for it....

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 20, 2017, 01:59:44 PM
@Tinselkoala,

"A negative correlation means that there is an inverse relationship between two variables".

K is the letter from Kelvin.

Its SI derived unit is the henry (the same as the unit of inductance, although the two concepts are distinct).

I told you the negative Henry was a measure of a magnetic field, now you're trying to teach me my lesson back.

Once again.... the INVERSE Henry 1/H, or H-1, is a measure of magnetic reluctance. It is not a "negative Henry". It is not the same thing as H, even with a negative sign, which is a vector quantity representing the strength of the magnetizing field. The letter H for this field strength was chosen by Lord Kelvin in 1850, probably at random, along with his choice of B. This is not the same thing as the Henry, the unit of inductance. Inductance is NOT THE SAME as field strength, they have different units and one is not the negative or even the inverse of the other.  You can see for yourself that Amperes/Meter, the units of the H field, do not appear anywhere in your listing of units for the Henry, not even negative OR inverse.

A negative correlation has nothing to do with "negative Henry" nor does it imply that one or the other of the correlated variables is "negative". By posting what you have posted you reveal that you do not understand correlation or inverse relationships.


Quote
In 1850, Lord Kelvin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Kelvin), then known as William Thomson, distinguished between two magnetic fields now denoted H and B. The former applied to Poisson's model and the latter to Ampère's model and induction.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_field#cite_note-12) Further, he derived how H and B relate to each other.
The reason H and B are used for the two magnetic fields has been a source of some debate among science historians. Most agree that Kelvin avoided M to prevent confusion with the SI fundamental unit of length, the Metre (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metre), abbreviated "m". Others believe the choices were purely random.[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_field#cite_note-13)[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_field#cite_note-14)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_field#B_and_H
 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_field#cite_note-14)

Note the graphic below. Nowhere is a "negative number" used or implied. Negative correlation means as one variable increases the other decreases, and positive correlation means as one variable increases, the other does as well, and when one variable decreases the other variable decreases too. It has nothing to do with negative values of the variables. The _slope_ of the regression line is either positive (positive correlation) or negative (negative correlation).

You really must stop posting your basic math errors and misconceptions.


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 20, 2017, 02:23:28 PM
@nelsonrochaa,

Thanks for the clarification. Consider this:


"Ørsted discovered the connection between magnetism and electric current when a magnetic field produced by a current-carrying copper bar deflected a magnetised needle during a lecture demonstration".


"In the CGS system, the unit of the H-field is the oersted and the unit of the B‑field is the gauss. In the SI system, the unit ampere per meter (A/m), which is equivalent to newton/weber, is used for the H‑field and the unit of tesla is used for the B‑field".

"H is measured in units of amperes per meter (symbol: A⋅m−1 or A/m) in the SI. B is measured in teslas (symbol: T)".


This is what you need to understand: The H field is an electrical equivalent and the B field a magnetic one.

@Tinselkoala,

You see fit to lecture me on the H and B field?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tysb3 on April 20, 2017, 06:46:08 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6jBtZ4VPC4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6jBtZ4VPC4)

all 6 bif. pancake coils are the same resonance frequency
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 20, 2017, 07:16:35 PM
Put your phasors on spin....

http://www.learnabout-electronics.org/ac_theory/lcr_para_101.php
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 20, 2017, 08:30:03 PM
Lenz's Law:

When a magnet approaches a coil, a current runs in one direction and the ammeter registers a plus indicating a positive current. When the magnet's pulled away from the coil, the current runs in the opposite direction and the ammeter registers a negative indicating a reverse or negative current.

Video on "Reluctance":

https://www.coursera.org/learn/electronic-converters/lecture/8MPtI/reluctance-and-magnetic-circuits
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 20, 2017, 08:59:06 PM
Here we see the negative Henry value on the left, in the "Magnetic Reluctance" equation below. This value is the equivalent of Ohms in the resistance formula on the right and is a measure of magnetic field strength. Naturally, everyone knows the field resists change in current through an inductor and therefore behaves like resistance in the other formula. 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 21, 2017, 01:37:36 PM
Quote from Tinselkoala:

"A negative correlation has nothing to do with "negative Henry" nor does it imply that one or the other of the correlated variables is "negative". By posting what you have posted you reveal that you do not understand correlation or inverse relationships".

Tinselkoala can not find a correlation between the "Inverse Henry" term of magnetic reluctance, and the minus sign that appears before the number on the inductance meter when set to read in Henries. He always couples his misstatements with some kind of personal insult. (He's revealing his stupidity again) to help make his malarkey stick.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 21, 2017, 03:23:35 PM
Im getting tired of threads being trashed to the point of no discussion at all.

Over at OUR they give the ability to have private discussions where only welcome people are invited. It works well with keeping a thread clean. But some say it stifles free speech. 

Well if you owned a corporation and you have weekly business meetings with say 10 top people in the company, you would not allow a group of protesters to come in and run amuck. It would have nothing to do with free speech as everyone has rights and reasons for privacy. And in this case, the business meeting, we are in that same territory. We have better things to do with our time than deal with protestors. If some dont like the private thread ability, too bad, we dont have to tell you anything. The threads can be also read only for others where protestors can have their opposition thread to babble among themselves, and if the private/read only players 'want' and 'need' to go to that alternate thread to have battle, then so beit, I dont care..

I am talking with others about seeing if Stefan can provide the read only and or private threads so that real work is not interrupted, and the protesters can have their venue to say what they want to say without it being disruptive in the 'work' threads. If it is a private thread and something comes of value from it, then all persons involved in that thread should take a vote as to open a new thread that shows the progress, but have it as read only, where yet again, protestors can have their own rebuttal and abuse delivery threads, fine, sure, go ahead.  So just like a family talking privately at home, all the way to a top gov meeting, we are all entitled to privacy at times, and I do not see that to be a problem in having that here if we want.  If some do not like that idea, then they must not like the idea of having PM abilities, of which is private. So what would be the issue in having private threads when really we could have completely private talks just like a thread in pm, but a thread is just better for many reasons.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 21, 2017, 03:47:33 PM
Im getting tired of threads being trashed to the point of no discussion at all.

Over at OUR they give the ability to have private discussions where only welcome people are invited. It works well with keeping a thread clean. But some say it stifles free speech. 

Well if you owned a corporation and you have weekly business meetings with say 10 top people in the company, you would not allow a group of protesters to come in and run amuck. It would have nothing to do with free speech as everyone has rights and reasons for privacy. And in this case, the business meeting, we are in that same territory. We have better things to do with our time than deal with protestors. If some dont like the private thread ability, too bad, we dont have to tell you anything. The threads can be also read only for others where protestors can have their opposition thread to babble among themselves, and if the private/read only players 'want' and 'need' to go to that alternate thread to have battle, then so beit, I dont care..

I am talking with others about seeing if Stefan can provide the read only and or private threads so that real work is not interrupted, and the protesters can have their venue to say what they want to say without it being disruptive in the 'work' threads. If it is a private thread and something comes of value from it, then all persons involved in that thread should take a vote as to open a new thread that shows the progress, but have it as read only, where yet again, protestors can have their own rebuttal and abuse delivery threads, fine, sure, go ahead.  So just like a family talking privately at home, all the way to a top gov meeting, we are all entitled to privacy at times, and I do not see that to be a problem in having that here if we want.  If some do not like that idea, then they must not like the idea of having PM abilities, of which is private. So what would be the issue in having private threads when really we could have completely private talks just like a thread in pm, but a thread is just better for many reasons.

Mags

@Magluvin,

There are people on this web site, yourself included, who don't understand basic formulas and laws, or choose to twist and misstate them. The rest of us can't accept this level of ignorance coupled with 'High Fashion" technical arguments. It's our duty to expose you as frauds.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 21, 2017, 04:39:32 PM
@Magluvin,

There are people on this web site, yourself included, who don't understand basic formulas and laws, or choose to twist and misstate them. The rest of us can't accept this level of ignorance coupled with 'High Fashion" technical arguments. It's our duty to expose you as frauds.

I approved this post above to reply to it publicly...

First off, it is mostly you who is saying that we dont understand this stuff. I dont see others agreeing with you here, its just you. You are not building anything to show and prove what you know. You just repeat day after day the same thing. What is that? Are you afraid that if you only wrote it once that nobody will see it?  After 50 times, still worried that nobody has noticed you? As for me, I am not sure that all of the laws and ideals are absolutely correct, so I dont hold them all as gold, otherwise it would be just a "move on folks, nothing more to see here' life. If they are, then this site is here just for giggles and wasted time. You are on moderation. And if you keep it up, as I can see every post before approval, I will do all I can to keep you moderated. There really isnt anyone here that I can see in agreement with your daily splatter.

You say there is fraud. You are only posting cut and paste. Woopty doo. Is that all you got? Do you have bench experience of what you declare as truth? If not then you dont have anything but cut and paste then its worth squat. Like reading a book on kung fu then saying you know kung fu. This isnt the matrix.  So you go ahead and keep posting as you wish, nobody is going to see them.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 21, 2017, 05:13:51 PM
How about having the threads as read only but the OP of the thread can "allow" or "deny" posting on a user or global basis,, this leaving the need for a moderator to remove any unwanted posts.

I think this would keep the intent of an open community in tact and then using PM you can still have the "closed" discussion when needed.

We already have that in moderation mode. Sometimes it is five or more pages a day and if a moderator isnt around, it could take a bit of time to read, think then approve a waiting message.  So for example, you may have posted 2 days ago and are waiting for approval. Well if its approved, it apears right where it was posted, possibly pages back and possibly days later of which the post may not even get read by someone that has already read that section or page and never get noticed.

Like if there is a read only thread with 5 guys, and if you wanted to join, just ask and if your not a bugger you should be able to join. Its not a prissy private club, its just a way to keep important discussion or project threads clean without having to have the 'job' of running the mop every day. Id rather not have that job and the floors wont get dirty if private or read only threads are allowed.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 21, 2017, 05:18:28 PM

I think this would keep the intent of an open community in tact and then using PM you can still have the "closed" discussion when needed.

Like I said before, PM is private and nobody can bother you between important private discussions. But you still have a different navigation of pm than you do with threads. And threads can show pics, pm not. Again if pm is allowed, then there should be no argument against a private thread that allows more convenience to the posters. And if a priv thread dies it should be made public

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 21, 2017, 06:08:20 PM
Lets say I start a thread an set it global read write,, then someone starts posting all the usual garbage.

If I could then set that poster to read only for that thread only it would stop any further intrusion by that poster,, let them start there own thread then to have there say,, like what you are talking about and all of the discussion is out and in the public view.

I take my private stuff and keep most of it in email,, a little PM now and then,, but mostly email. 

If *I* could set that condition for the threads *I* start then no moderator is needed until there are posts that need to be removed,, I would also think that when enough threads are read only for a few posters that they would either change there ways or leave.

Just my thoughts on it.

If all thread makers had that ability, there may be some that are tossed because of things that are not legit and all could get messy and not fair at all.

monitoring threads and responding to complaints as a moderator is not a pleasant biz. Having read only threads I believe is best where all can see but cant disrupt and waste time, of which I really value my time.

Yeah we could all just leave and email eachother. But this site is setup for the convenience of not intermixing like having to sort through messages like email or pms if there is a lot of them. At OUR I think that there is a more happy environment in private and read only threads. Im all for happiness. Businesses succeed better with happy workers and so should a smart group of people trying to find OU in a thread where we dont have to have ANY disruptions and the record of the thread is clean and easily read through.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 21, 2017, 06:18:36 PM
I really like the idea of read only thread for builders and researchers.  I don't think any of us have anything to hide but it would be nice to carry on a discussion with like minded builders and researchers without all the clutter.  I started a thread at EF just for technical discussion because of this very problem.  Some builders did not want their thread cluttered up with discussion so in respect to that I started that thread.  Sometimes it is used and sometimes not but it is there for use by the ones that want it.

There are a couple of threads there now that are considered builders threads only and most of us that still go to that forum just respect that request.  As far as I know it is not actively enforced by the Admin but just voluntarily respected.  From what I have seen here the voluntary part probably won't work.

If Stefan can set up a read only format with only selected members able to post I do believe it would help this forum a lot.

Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 21, 2017, 08:12:08 PM
Haven't followed this (my own) thread anymore. But as it is mine, here is a related post:

I made some more coils. I earlier used bifilar coils to be pulsed. I now tried single wire coils:

I connected the two single wire pancake coil in series, to my IGBT pulse driver.
The IGBT became extremely hot (much hotter than with a pulsed bifilar coil).
I guess this is because of the back emf produced, by the pulsed coils.
To avoid it, i should use a diode and a resistor in parallel with the coil, to burn the energy of the back emf.

So, I guess I will be making another bifilar pancake coil, to pulse in series.

isnt it funny, that the bifilar coil doesnt produce this troublesome back emf?

Telsa in his patent states, the back emf of a normal single wire coil, can be fixed with capacitance... but how?

I must say... these bifilar coils have their advantage (the IGBT stays cool)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 21, 2017, 08:58:03 PM
This is a quote from Erfinder that was removed while I was reading it. I was going to reply but it said post didnt exist. So I back paged and still was able to copy. I will clean it up for the one that removed it so i can reply.

"Moderation is a waste of time!  You cannot expect to grow if you censor.  If you don't want to read someone's post, ignore them.  This place gets cluster @#$%^& quickly....which is worse, twenty pages of someone spamming, or twenty pages of someone slamming you with every text book ever written, showering you in s@#$ no one needs a lesson in,  and at the end of the lecture you're still as clueless as the guy/gal spamming....


This is not the place for a productive discussion, never was, and probably never will be.  Those whose experience allows them to"represent" the status quo aren't wise enough to shut the $%^& up and let people fall on their faces!  The excuse that you are trying to save people from taking advice from the idiots is idiotic....  The excuse that you just can't stand by and allow the ignorant spread lies is a bold face lie. There are no facts.  Think and believe what you want....  IF you take advice from a fool, and you didn't know the advice came from a fool...what does that make you...not a question.


That coil is the subject of this thread....stop listening to milehigh preach about single sine functions!  I read the patent too....and despite what you think, Tesla said what he said for the likes of milehigh, not you open minded folk!  For the open minded, there's a load you need to catch up on!  But you won't.....you will continue to listen to milehigh and others who know nothing more than the value of silence....."


I am not a fan of moderation. And in ref to the same paragraph I have voiced my concerns with the crap that screw up threads, and I have seen that read only and or private threads help with that a lot. At OUR others make separate threads that deal with further discussions that keep the read only threads clean so it is easier to go through for those that are really interested in the subject. So Im not sure why the beat down there...

As for who is in the thread doing builds and tests and how they do them, well they are doing it. You are not. You are just doing this. Not a great example really. I thought we could get along but you are now just here beating on me. You do have children dont you?........ Is this how you teach them? Come on dude.

As for the coil, maybe you dont see that Im 'trying' to figure out other ways of approaching it other than what the pat says, even though one of the ideas is based on what the pat says. So what if I am way off of what you claim is the proper way to deal with it. Maybe I havnt got there yet and maybe never will. Who knows. What you claim may not even exist 'as far as we know'. How could we know as we are all screwed as you claim.

Anyway, I tried to be on a good side with you but you are just too much.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 21, 2017, 09:31:15 PM

Moderation is a waste of time!  You cannot expect to grow if you censor.  If you don't want to read someone's post, ignore them.  This place gets clusterquickly....which is worse, twenty pages of someone spamming, or twenty pages of someone slamming you with every text book ever written, showering you in no one needs a lesson in,  and at the end of the lecture you're still as clueless as the guy/gal spamming....


This is not the place for a productive discussion, never was, and probably never will be.  Those whose experience allows them to"represent" the status quo aren't wise enough to shut the  up and let people fall on their faces!  The excuse that you are trying to save people from taking advice from the idiots is idiotic....  The excuse that you just can't stand by and allow the ignorant spread lies is a bold face lie. There are no facts.  Think and believe what you want.... 


IF you take advice from a fool, and you didn't know the advice came from a fool...what does that make you...not a question.That coil is the subject of this thread....stop listening to milehigh preach about single sine functions!  ..... despite what you think, Tesla said what he said for the likes of milehigh, not you open minded folk!  For the open minded, there's a shit load you need to catch up on!  But you won't.....you will continue to listen to milehigh and others who know nothing more than the value of silence.....

I asked you politely to leave the foul language out,and you refused to do so.
I will not ask again.

Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 21, 2017, 09:32:07 PM
Just like deja vu all over again.

I showed how when the bifilar coil self-resonates, the amount of energy stored in the LC resonator relative to the continuous resistive power burn is negligible.

I was the impetus for the frequency sweep, and the surprise so far is that we have only seen parallel resonance and not series resonance like the patent states.

Erfinder makes lots of claims but will not reveal anything.

Magluvin is going to do some future testing but will not reveal what it is all about.

And of course I ask the questions that many won't ask or they are afraid to ask because of the special flavour of political correctness around here:  What is the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil good for?  What can you do with it?  I have asked similar questions about other issues that nobody dare speak in the past.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 21, 2017, 09:36:37 PM
Just like deja vu all over again.

I showed how when the bifilar coil self-resonates, the amount of energy stored in the LC resonator relative to the continuous resistive power burn is negligible.

I was the impetus for the frequency sweep, and the surprise so far is that we have only seen parallel resonance and not series resonance like the patent states.

Erfinder makes lots of claims but will not reveal anything.

Magluvin is going to do some future testing but will not reveal what it is all about.

And of course I ask the questions that many won't ask or they are afraid to ask because of the special flavour of political correctness around here:  What is the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil good for?  What can you do with it?  I have asked similar questions about other issues that nobody dare speak in the past.

Well i for one,have found nothing special about it-yet,other than the lower resonant frequency.

Erfinder will talk lot's,but never tell you anything other than riddles-it's the way he has always been.

Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: partzman on April 21, 2017, 10:00:05 PM
Just like deja vu all over again.

I showed how when the bifilar coil self-resonates, the amount of energy stored in the LC resonator relative to the continuous resistive power burn is negligible.

I was the impetus for the frequency sweep, and the surprise so far is that we have only seen parallel resonance and not series resonance like the patent states.

Erfinder makes lots of claims but will not reveal anything.

Magluvin is going to do some future testing but will not reveal what it is all about.

And of course I ask the questions that many won't ask or they are afraid to ask because of the special flavour of political correctness around here:  What is the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil good for?  What can you do with it?  I have asked similar questions about other issues that nobody dare speak in the past.

Before this thread gets totally out of hand, I would like to propose at least one answer to MH's question above.  The TBC could be modeled as a symmetrical transmission line wherein each wire of the bifilar pair contains lumped inductors and the distributed capacitance between this bifilar pair are lumped capacitances connected between the lumped inductors.  I've attached a schematic to represent this. 

If this is correct, it might explain how when at a certain frequency no current appears to flow thru the TBC but yet induction can be detected with a separate sense coil in proximity.  IOW, the TBC is still inductively active when it appears not to be.  Possible applications to free energy, well, I guess that is up to us to figure out!

PM 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: itsu on April 21, 2017, 10:14:49 PM
Hi Itsu,

I think you would need to make the pancake's self resonant frequency a little bit tunable by connecting a max 100 pF variable cap in parallel with it first and then approach the pickup coil near to it with its own variable cap. 
The detuning factor mutually affecting both coils resonances is the distance between them i.e. coupling between them. Any time you change the distance, you would have to retune both coils, this means you need coils to be tunable to both directions, up and down.   I do not think a  max 100  pF extra cap across the pancake would influence meaningfully any other properties of it other than its self resonant frequency.
The so called critical coupling would bring the most favorable response between the coils like in band pass filter cases.

Addition: I think any time there is a double peak created in the response then overcoupling is happening, this means you need to increase the distance between the two coils and retune their variable capacitors a little. 

Gyula

I made a similar TBP coil like the one i already had and which has similar specifications (1.4 Ohm each coil, 130uH each coil etc.)
With a fairly great distance between them, i can tune them (using a 45 - 450pF variable capacitor on the driven TCP coil) to resonate around
the same frequency.
When narrowing the gap between the TBP coils we see the resonance points getting split due to overcoupling, see screenshot below.

Yellow is the driven TBP coil being sweeped between 200 and 400 Khz.
Purple is the pickup TBP coil at the same resonance frequency.
Blue is the FG sweep signal.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iXfDTRQKZ0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iXfDTRQKZ0)

Regards Itsu 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: itsu on April 21, 2017, 10:21:52 PM
Haven't followed this (my own) thread anymore. But as it is mine, here is a related post:

I made some more coils. I earlier used bifilar coils to be pulsed. I now tried single wire coils:

I connected the two single wire pancake coil in series, to my IGBT pulse driver.
The IGBT became extremely hot (much hotter than with a pulsed bifilar coil).
I guess this is because of the back emf produced, by the pulsed coils.
To avoid it, i should use a diode and a resistor in parallel with the coil, to burn the energy of the back emf.

So, I guess I will be making another bifilar pancake coil, to pulse in series.

isnt it funny, that the bifilar coil doesnt produce this troublesome back emf?

Telsa in his patent states, the back emf of a normal single wire coil, can be fixed with capacitance... but how?

I must say... these bifilar coils have their advantage (the IGBT stays cool)


Hi Evo,

that would be great, but could you perhaps show some scope shots of your IGBT drain in both situations (Bifilar coil versus single wire coils)?

Thanks,  Itsu
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 22, 2017, 12:01:42 AM
Re: what is the physical meaning of "Negative Inductance"?

"The most fundamental reason is that the electric energy stored in this element is more than the magnetic energy stored. Circuit designers interpret it as a capacitor".

Here's what I gathered: Increased inductor field strength creates a reluctance to changing current, but some current that fails to pass is stored in the inductor along with the magnetic field. Now, this is referred to as "Positive Capacitance" except the frequency reactance is reversed. The amount of positive capacitance in an inductor of charged magnetic field strength is measured in 'Negative Henries" of inductance, and has to be proportional to the intensity of the flux field.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: gyulasun on April 22, 2017, 12:58:31 AM
Hi Itsu,

To refine this tuning procedure, both coils would need to be paralleled with a variable capacitor
and first both of these capacitors would need to be set to a half capacitance value (half opened capacitors).
This way you could tune any of the coils either above or below of the frequency established by
the half opened capacitors, and this then could help finding the best coupling where the response
has a single peak at the common resonance frequency for both coils.  Both LC circuits mutually detune
each other as they are coupled i.e. getting closer to each other hence the need to either increase or
decrease the individual coil resonancies and this can be done by opening or closing the capacitors.

But this tuning you nicely show in the video may also be enough already to test the load of a LED or
any other load connected to the pick-up coil how it influences the small current consumption of the
main TBP at the paralel resonance - this was the original goal for tuning the pick-up coil to be resonant
with the main TBP coil.

Thanks
Gyula

I made a similar TBP coil like the one i already had and which has similar specifications (1.4 Ohm each coil,
130uH each coil etc.)
With a fairly great distance between them, i can tune them (using a 45 - 450pF variable capacitor on the
driven TCP coil) to resonate around the same frequency.
When narrowing the gap between the TBP coils we see the resonance points getting split due to
overcoupling, see screenshot below.

Yellow is the driven TBP coil being sweeped between 200 and 400 Khz.
Purple is the pickup TBP coil at the same resonance frequency.
Blue is the FG sweep signal.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iXfDTRQKZ0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iXfDTRQKZ0)

Regards Itsu
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 22, 2017, 01:23:14 AM
Hi Itsu,

To refine this tuning procedure, both coils would need to be paralleled with a variable capacitor
and first both of these capacitors would need to be set to a half capacitance value (half opened capacitors).
This way you could tune any of the coils either above or below of the frequency established by
the half opened capacitors, and this then could help finding the best coupling where the response
has a single peak at the common resonance frequency for both coils.  Both LC circuits mutually detune
each other as they are coupled i.e. getting closer to each other hence the need to either increase or
decrease the individual coil resonancies and this can be done by opening or closing the capacitors.

But this tuning you nicely show in the video may also be enough already to test the load of a LED or
any other load connected to the pick-up coil how it influences the small current consumption of the
main TBP at the paralel resonance - this was the original goal for tuning the pick-up coil to be resonant
with the main TBP coil.

Thanks
Gyula

I was thinking on the tuning. If the coils are wound as neatly as possible and one coil res at one freq and the other at a say higher freq, then one could try unraveling the lower freq coil just a tiny bit at a time, where that would lower both capacitance and inductance thus raising the freq to equal the other coil.  No?

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: gyulasun on April 22, 2017, 01:43:06 AM
Yes, Mags  removing a few turns can also be a solution for fine tuning.  Especially in case when someone
has no variable capacitor in his junk box.  Tuning is surely easier by variable capacitors or trimmers though.

Gyula
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 22, 2017, 01:53:16 AM
Before this thread gets totally out of hand, I would like to propose at least one answer to MH's question above.  The TBC could be modeled as a symmetrical transmission line wherein each wire of the bifilar pair contains lumped inductors and the distributed capacitance between this bifilar pair are lumped capacitances connected between the lumped inductors.  I've attached a schematic to represent this. 

If this is correct, it might explain how when at a certain frequency no current appears to flow thru the TBC but yet induction can be detected with a separate sense coil in proximity.  IOW, the TBC is still inductively active when it appears not to be.  Possible applications to free energy, well, I guess that is up to us to figure out!

PM

Looking at your depiction it looks correct, where you could expand on that and show tiny caps between turns every so often on the turns.  My thoughts looking at this would seem to show that the caps have to be charged through the inductor windings, not in parallel where the input sees the cap at each end directly and the same with the inductor, where in a series lc it would seem a closer relationship where the cap has to get its charge through the inductor. I know that the coils have been showing parallel attributes of what happens with the input at resonance, but I still see the series version when looking at the schematic as do I see the one in my head. lol  Anyway...

Like if it were a single wire coil, the capacitances are all in series from end to end and do a direct connect at each end of the input, of which would emulate the parallel.  But if we look at the bifi, we have a very similar situation with all the tiny capacitances in series from end to end with the input, where the input would charge them in divisions of series caps and they would end with a fraction of the input, but that string is reconfigured in another way also, where say the first tiny cap in place at the beginning of the windings is only connected to the input on one side and the other end of the tiny cap is connected half way through the coil, thus for the larger charge to take effect it has to be electrically through the inductor to do so, thus my series impression.  So the bifi is an odd thing where the caps between each turn ARE all in series from end to the and connect to the input at either end directly just like the single wire coil AND the higher voltage developed in the caps has to go through the inductor.  So I think perhaps there are and can be dissimilarities when saying that a simple 2 component lc can do all the things a bifi can do. Maybe most have not given it any wild and crazy ideas beyond just testing and using a simple lc.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 22, 2017, 02:31:19 AM
Looking at your depiction it looks correct, where you could expand on that and show tiny caps between turns every so often on the turns.  My thoughts looking at this would seem to show that the caps have to be charged through the inductor windings, not in parallel where the input sees the cap at each end directly and the same with the inductor, where in a series lc it would seem a closer relationship where the cap has to get its charge through the inductor. I know that the coils have been showing parallel attributes of what happens with the input at resonance, but I still see the series version when looking at the schematic as do I see the one in my head. lol  Anyway...

Like if it were a single wire coil, the capacitances are all in series from end to end and do a direct connect at each end of the input, of which would emulate the parallel.  But if we look at the bifi, we have a very similar situation with all the tiny capacitances in series from end to end with the input, where the input would charge them in divisions of series caps and they would end with a fraction of the input, but that string is reconfigured in another way also, where say the first tiny cap in place at the beginning of the windings is only connected to the input on one side and the other end of the tiny cap is connected half way through the coil, thus for the larger charge to take effect it has to be electrically through the inductor to do so, thus my series impression.  So the bifi is an odd thing where the caps between each turn ARE all in series from end to the and connect to the input at either end directly just like the single wire coil AND the higher voltage developed in the caps has to go through the inductor.  So I think perhaps there are and can be dissimilarities when saying that a simple 2 component lc can do all the things a bifi can do. Maybe most have not given it any wild and crazy ideas beyond just testing and using a simple lc.

Mags

Lol, a lot of these so called nutty ideas come to me as I write here at times. So here goes nuthin....


Thinking about what I just wrote has me thinking that your schematic may need fixing a bit. Follow me here...

In a single layer rod coil, we have the tiny caps connected between adjacent turns turns(and let me know if I need to do a 3d representation of my vision) where when it is all done we can see that all over we have strings of caps from input on the left and input on the right. Those in themselves are a series connection between input connections. So that is like a parallel lc and all in series like that the total voltage of all in series should be equal to the input, leaving tiny percentages of the input in each. So the capacitance of a standard coil ends up with tiny affect on the inductor(unless you want to work at those freq with such coil). 

So in the bifi if we start placing the same tiny caps between adjacent turns in the end we still have the same series strings from input connection to input connection. The exact same if the coils were wound identical.  But we also have this alternation of turns which kinda makes things different. We have a separate arrangement that connects the caps differently 'through' the coil, that luckily through resistance we have voltage division in the windings that allows the caps to take on half of the input voltage across the board.  So in the bifi we have basically 2 capacitances to deal with .

Im hoping you are getting this Parts as Ive heard you have put this stuff though the ringer for some time and should be familiar with what im getting at.

Sooo, for the new wild and crazy thought.....

If the series strings of capacitors all across the coil, no matter how the coils are connected bifi or standard, we have to agree that there is a series capacitance across the input in spite of the coils other properties, then what happens to that series capacitance when all those tiny caps get charged to half the input voltage and are yet all in series with the input??????     Think on that for a moment or as long as it takes.  It just may very well be the big deal here..

Im feeling a 3d coming on to help dispose any conflict with what im saying.   If we can charge the caps to half the input, then there are all these series caps that would add together to a higher voltage than the input. Not saying it is happening and is usable as we are fiddling, but there may be a way to take advantage of that.

Hey, Im just bangin on the outside of the box. Seems logical. 

Thanks for replying to MH and inspiring that thought.  ;)

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 22, 2017, 03:49:56 AM



 You've  shown what......how many dead ends....more than me that's right....not sure if one should be proud of that...

Fact is Erfinder,you have not shown any thing,and most here are starting to see that.

Your riddle's have become a bore to most--it's getting old now.

Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Dog-One on April 22, 2017, 08:13:53 AM
If I want to show someone something I contact them and show them.

Roger that.  And it usually takes months to digest it all.    ;)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 22, 2017, 11:12:26 AM


And of course I ask the questions that many won't ask or they are afraid to ask because of the special flavour of political correctness around here:  What is the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil good for?  What can you do with it?  I have asked similar questions about other issues that nobody dare speak in the past.
I think it has already been indicated, some of the applications of pancake bifilar, you are only try put "sand in the gears" nothing more .
You can try to test in a practical way, in your laboratory of work, instead of continuing to regret that they do not answer you in relation to your doubts, on the pancake bifilar.
See how a bifilar pancake coil could be used to do nice work in transfering power  :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEZSCNHDYJs

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: padova on April 22, 2017, 11:30:18 AM
You are wright Nelson,
less talking and/or complaining and more actual work. Way to go. :)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 22, 2017, 11:43:16 AM
You are wright Nelson,
less talking and/or complaining and more actual work. Way to go. :)

Full agree !

More work and less talk and corrosive speech . ;)

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 22, 2017, 12:48:13 PM


The inductor's "B" field, or magnetic field, stores a tiny "H' field, or electric charge. This charge is measured by our inductance meters and is converted into "Negative Henries".

The question remains: Is the tiny "H" field in direct proportion to the coil's magnetic field strength? I maintain it is and can prove it.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 22, 2017, 01:29:51 PM
I think it has already been indicated, some of the applications of pancake bifilar, you are only try put "sand in the gears" nothing more .
You can try to test in a practical way, in your laboratory of work, instead of continuing to regret that they do not answer you in relation to your doubts, on the pancake bifilar.
See how a bifilar pancake coil could be used to do nice work in transfering power  :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEZSCNHDYJs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEZSCNHDYJs)

No, unfortunately that is not an answer to my questions.  You can use an ordinary transformer to transfer power and it will be superior in performance to a bifilar pancake coil and it will be cheaper.  So I don't care that you can transfer power with a Tesla series bifilar pancake coil, it's meaningless.

So my questions are still 100% valid:  What is the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil good for?  What can you do with it?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 22, 2017, 01:38:31 PM
No, unfortunately that is not an answer to my questions.  You can use an ordinary transformer to transfer power and it will be superior in performance to a bifilar pancake coil and it will be cheaper.  So I don't care that you can transfer power with a Tesla series bifilar pancake coil, it's meaningless.

So my questions are still 100% valid:  What is the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil good for?  What can you do with it?

Normal transformer is less expensive then a pancake coil ? i don't think so ... only the core will increase the final price of transformer in relation to pancake coil just like their losses.

A ordinary transformer will transfer power and it will be superior in performance ?
I don't think so too . Test it and after you could talk more Assertively.

What is meaningless is your certainties sometimes .
Have a nice day
 
Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 22, 2017, 01:53:02 PM
Normal transformer is less expensive then a pancake coil ? i don't think so ... only the core will increase the final price of transformer in relation to pancake coil just like their losses.

A ordinary transformer will transfer power and it will be superior in performance ?
I don't think so too . Test it and after you could talk more Assertively.

What is meaningless is your certainties sometimes .
Have a nice day
 
Nelson Rocha

There are billions of transformers manufactured every year for power transfer applications and they are not manufacturing Tesla series bifilar pancake coils, are they?

You feel free to define a power application for a transformer and then compare the best conventional transformer suited to the application with the best TBP coil suited to the application and compare efficiency and cost and there is no chance that the TBP coil will outperform the conventional transformer.

Just look at the geometry of a TBP coil with very small-diameter inner turns inside of larger-diameter outer turns.  The small-diameter turns will give you a weaker, poorer coupling as compared to the larger-diameter turns.  Plus there is flux cancellation between the turns of a TBP coil.  These are all aspects of the device telling you that it will function poorly as a transformer.  You are supposed to be able to look at cases like this and apply your knowledge.

I am absolutely certain that there are better, more cost-effective solutions for power transfer than TBP coils.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 22, 2017, 02:42:40 PM

You feel free to define a power application for a transformer and then compare the best conventional transformer suited to the application with the best TBP coil suited to the application and compare efficiency and cost and there is no chance that the TBP coil will outperform the conventional transformer.

Just look at the geometry of a TBP coil with very small-diameter inner turns inside of larger-diameter outer turns.  The small-diameter turns will give you a weaker, poorer coupling as compared to the larger-diameter turns.  Plus there is flux cancellation between the turns of a TBP coil.  These are all aspects of the device telling you that it will function poorly as a transformer.  You are supposed to be able to look at cases like this and apply your knowledge.

I am absolutely certain that there are better, more cost-effective solutions for power transfer than TBP coils.

"There are billions of transformers manufactured every year for power transfer applications and they are not manufacturing Tesla series bifilar pancake coils, are they?"

Yes it is true , almost transformers are not designed in a bifilar pancake coils, But is this something new? Everybody now that fact, About the reasons to continue use normal transformers ... I'm not so sure anymore if the reason to their use, is their advantage  in relation to other alternatives. Imagine that all the transformers in industries did not need to use iron core . How could this could hypothetical change all industrial and financial  reality and lobby ?
Is the question ...


Nelson Rocha
 


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: AlienGrey on April 22, 2017, 04:02:38 PM
"There are billions of transformers manufactured every year for power transfer applications and they are not manufacturing Tesla series bifilar pancake coils, are they?"

Yes it is true , almost transformers are not designed in a bifilar pancake coils, But is this something new? Everybody now that fact, About the reasons to continue use normal transformers ... I'm not so sure anymore if the reason to their use, is their advantage  in relation to other alternatives. Imagine that all the transformers in industries did not need to use iron core . How could this could hypothetical change all industrial and financial  reality and lobby ?
Is the question ...


Nelson Rocha
Nelson Hi yes it's said to be the ion in the transformer you mention, i'm not sur 'E & I' laminations are so good, 'UU' type would return much more, and give me the no free meal exists joke, the nefalines have been having them since the beginning of time.

Talking about pancake coils would there be any 'special' wire length or frequency where a return is greatest ? 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: AlienGrey on April 22, 2017, 04:08:12 PM
There are billions of transformers manufactured every year for power transfer applications and they are not manufacturing Tesla series bifilar pancake coils, are they?

You feel free to define a power application for a transformer and then compare the best conventional transformer suited to the application with the best TBP coil suited to the application and compare efficiency and cost and there is no chance that the TBP coil will outperform the conventional transformer.

Just look at the geometry of a TBP coil with very small-diameter inner turns inside of larger-diameter outer turns.  The small-diameter turns will give you a weaker, poorer coupling as compared to the larger-diameter turns.  Plus there is flux cancellation between the turns of a TBP coil.  These are all aspects of the device telling you that it will function poorly as a transformer.  You are supposed to be able to look at cases like this and apply your knowledge.

I am absolutely certain that there are better, more cost-effective solutions for power transfer than TBP coils.
It's not 'Energy transfer we need, all that's available commercially and available from the 'grid', but it's never going to be 'free' ;)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 22, 2017, 04:31:40 PM
There are billions of transformers manufactured every year for power transfer applications and they are not manufacturing Tesla series bifilar pancake coils, are they?

You feel free to define a power application for a transformer and then compare the best conventional transformer suited to the application with the best TBP coil suited to the application and compare efficiency and cost and there is no chance that the TBP coil will outperform the conventional transformer.

Just look at the geometry of a TBP coil with very small-diameter inner turns inside of larger-diameter outer turns.  The small-diameter turns will give you a weaker, poorer coupling as compared to the larger-diameter turns.  Plus there is flux cancellation between the turns of a TBP coil.  These are all aspects of the device telling you that it will function poorly as a transformer.  You are supposed to be able to look at cases like this and apply your knowledge.

I am absolutely certain that there are better, more cost-effective solutions for power transfer than TBP coils.

Well,im with you on this one MH,as i have seen nothing more than a lower resonant frequency from a BPC,than that of a single wound coil,of exact same dimensions,wire size,and wire type.

What i have seen so far,is !some! here,harping on about how special the BPC is,but show absolutely nothing to back up this claim.

From this we can deduce that they cannot show anything great about the BPC,and that the fanaticism is only there for the BPC for no other reason than that of the name behind it !Tesla!.

So,why would the BPC have a lower resonant frequency of that of a single wound coil of the same parameters?.

Well my theory on that.
With the single wound coil,both the resistive value across each winding,and the capacitive value between each winding,would decrease as you go from the outside winding,to the inner winding.
With the BPC,only the capacitive value between windings would decrease,as you go from the outer winding,to the inner winding. The resistive value across each two windings would remain a constant value.
The symmetry of this resistance value,may be why the BPC has a lower resonant frequency.

Anyway,that's my two cents worth.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 22, 2017, 05:13:18 PM
Here is the problem....who said anything about power transfer!?  Ah...I get it, that's what you interpreted from Nelson's demonstration.  I am not a groupie, however, I do appreciate why you would think that (that this is about power transfer...a message you keep repeating),  and hey, what do I know, maybe his (Nelson's) message in that video is about power transfer......would be a shame if it was....  Knowing what we know today, who in their right mind is interested and or concerned with the rate at which energy is "dissipated"?!?  I keep coming to the same conclusion regarding that question......"the ignorant".

It is quite fascinating witnessing how you are paralyzed by your years of experience, all that compressed time prohibiting you from truly appreciating what is right in front of you, you of above all were trained to see it and yet...you are as blind as those you judge.....  What you describe is exactly what I want.....Everything you point a crooked finger at and downplay are the strengths of this "geometry", strengths of this "relation", not weakness!

Nelson said power transfer, I am not interpreting anything.  "The ignorant" are interested and or concerned with the rate at which energy is "dissipated"?!?  The poor humble masses worrying about the battery life of their smartphones when there are bigger fish to fry?

What am I blind to?  What is it that I can't appreciate?  What is it that you want?  What are the strengths?  If you refuse to answer and scoff that I would dare to ask then you are nothing more than the resident thread clown.  I am saying this ahead of time because we have been down this road before.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 22, 2017, 05:25:52 PM
"There are billions of transformers manufactured every year for power transfer applications and they are not manufacturing Tesla series bifilar pancake coils, are they?"

Yes it is true , almost transformers are not designed in a bifilar pancake coils, But is this something new? Everybody now that fact, About the reasons to continue use normal transformers ... I'm not so sure anymore if the reason to their use, is their advantage  in relation to other alternatives. Imagine that all the transformers in industries did not need to use iron core . How could this could hypothetical change all industrial and financial  reality and lobby ?
Is the question ...

Nelson Rocha

What you are saying makes no sense.  Transformers use ferrite cores so that their power density is high and therefore they can be made in small sizes.  The ferrite core also retains the magnetic field internal to the transformer itself.  Without a ferrite core the transformer would have to be much larger and it would radiate a magnetic field in the vicinity of the transformer which would disturb other components with undesirable magnetic induction effects happening everywhere.  Even if you do not make use of an iron core, you would not make a transformer in the form of a Tesla bifilar pancake coil, you would make a regular transformer in some sort of solenoid configuration without a series bifilar winding.

We are still waiting for some actual application for a Tesla bifilar pancake coil and so far there is none that I am aware of.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 22, 2017, 05:43:45 PM
exactly....the ignorant.....
everything...
in a word....everything....
as if you can provide it.... 
you don't know? 
I am not going to lose any sleep because the milehigh says that I am the resident thread clown....

Erfinder the enigma man wrapped in a mystery.  Can you crack the code?

Ha ha the things you can find on Google Images.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 22, 2017, 05:56:40 PM
Considering what I wrote earlier, Im convinced that the bifi has 'also' the same series cap effect I explained, from end to end like the single wire coil. So I recommend trying to run the bifi at the freq the single coil res freq, just to see what happens.  Ive been working so I wont have real time to do these things till sunday, or I would.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 22, 2017, 05:59:12 PM
Erfinder the enigma man wrapped in a mystery.  Can you crack the code?

Ha ha the things you can find on Google Images.

You are bordering on earlier claims made against syncro. Er has definitely cleaned up his posts and i respect that, a lot. ;)

Clean it up

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 22, 2017, 07:11:02 PM
We can calculate for Ohms with sufficient facts, or measure for them with a DMM.

Same goes for Reluctance. We can calculate for "Inverse Henries" or measure for them with an "Inductance Meter". "Inverse Henries" and "Negative Henries" are both measures of inductor field strength. The stronger the inductor magnetic field, the more it resists a change in current.

Remember: A negative corollary has an inverse relationship between two variables.

Every "B" field stores a tiny amount of electric power in an "H" field. The "H" field is directly proportional to the strength of the "B" field. The inductance meter measures the "H" field and converts the measurement into "Negative Henries" which in turn can be factored into the "B" field strength in Teslas and Gauss.

Milehigh and Tinselkoala couldn't answer specific questions about the amount of power it would require to generate 1 Tesla of magnetic force in an inductor of 1 Henry of inductance. Ramset alleged that they're just trying to help me out; It could be that they're just that ignorant.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Dog-One on April 22, 2017, 08:05:48 PM
Simplicity is sometimes kind of nice to have, so I'll make it simple...

Your cargo travels in the train right?   Not the railroad tracks.

Then why try to push your energy down the wires?  Wouldn't it make
more sense to just use the wires as a guide and let the energy
follow those wires instead of try to go through them?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 22, 2017, 08:12:44 PM
Let me see if this makes sense.

MH states that if you use and view the bifi coil in the usual way you will only see what we already know and understand.
this I agree with,, the same old is after all the same old.

MH has asked what makes the bifi not normal, but then frames the question with the usual way of looking at these kind of things.

Others are stating that if you look at the bifi in a "new" way that you will see "new" things.

A question that has come up is why run the bifi at resonance?

Then a question to MH,, what makes resonance so wonderful?

IMHO it is only good for storing energy and or making a nice timing device,, that is when used in the normal fashion.

These questions seem reasonable,, and maybe MH should actually try and answer them instead of only repeating the customary view,, what new views can you come up with MH?

Just some dumb questions to spur the imagination,,
what would happen if you charged the dielectric and then placed it between 2 plates?
what would the condition of the plates be after you did something with the charged dielectric?

Not saying these questions have anything to do with anything,, but sometimes thinking about something else stimulates the old noggin into action.

"These questions seem reasonable,, and maybe MH should actually try and answer them instead of only repeating the customary view,, what new views can you come up with MH?"

Exactly. His stance has most always been that there is nothing more to see beyond what is written as laws or the forced equations that are given to us.  He will not look any further than that. And presses that on others when they try. Its all over these pages not just in this thread alone.

This place is really here for discovering something that may be there and it just hasnt been accomplished yet. OR it has been accomplished, and in many ways possibly, and it is being hidden and ones that come close are trashed into nowhere land. Its one or the other, isnt it? ;)   lol    50 50 chance :o ;D

To force the books on every "new idea"? Id think most people are not here to get an associate degree like in the box schools. If the idea claims to go beyond the books, then THAT is what people are looking for here .  This site is here to look beyond what we know and or what is 'not known yet, otherwise MH would be correct in much earlier statements that this place is for people to learn electronics,/etc.... If that IS what this place is all about, for reals, then there are a huge chunk of members and readers at the wrong site. Ya know?

Like ask him if there is anything left to learn about pulse motors. Anything?  He will say no. Has made the statements. His words. Do you believe that statement to be 'fact'?

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 22, 2017, 08:20:16 PM
What you are saying makes no sense.  Transformers use ferrite cores so that their power density is high and therefore they can be made in small sizes.  The ferrite core also retains the magnetic field internal to the transformer itself.  Without a ferrite core the transformer would have to be much larger and it would radiate a magnetic field in the vicinity of the transformer which would disturb other components with undesirable magnetic induction effects happening everywhere.  Even if you do not make use of an iron core, you would not make a transformer in the form of a Tesla bifilar pancake coil, you would make a regular transformer in some sort of solenoid configuration without a series bifilar winding.

We are still waiting for some actual application for a Tesla bifilar pancake coil and so far there is none that I am aware of.


To me what does not make sense is you think that i don't know what is the difference between a transformer with iron core and ferrite core .
Are you trying to ridicule me? Hope not because seems to me very poor attempt on your part, and if you don't want answer what i ask it's ok to me, but don't fall in the ridicule of try teach something so basic like you did about the transformers theme .
Get some sun man .

Nelson Rocha

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 22, 2017, 08:24:44 PM

Try this....


Two "plates" separated by dielectric is a cap.....right....not a question....


Why then is it so damn difficult to see that the bifilar coil as two small cross section plates separated by dielectric?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?  Stop focusing on the connection between the two "plates" and focus on the obvious, specifically, you are literally looking at two parallel plates (inductors in this case) separated by dielectric...


What MH thinks is immaterial....what anyone thinks is immaterial...we must consider the obvious, that which is right in your damn face, screaming at you....  If you can't see the painfully obvious, slowly step away from the bench, with your hands raised above your head.....  turn away from the bench, leave the room, do not forget to turn off the light, and never return to your lab again.

Right. Nice depiction in characters. So we have the series caps from input to input but, we have the advantage of the unique increase in plate to plate voltage as compared to a single wire coil.  And what if we were able to operate the coil a certain way, is there a way to apply input then take it away and see that half input voltage charge times the number of turns , or as you correctly say, plates? 100v in, 50v between plates times 100 turns. 5kv.  I really cant see that anyone would think it cant be as I say. Im just goin with what Im seein in my jelly ball above my neck. Maybe your direction with it is different. But thanks for that nice contribution. ;) It all shows that the bifi is a different monster in possibly more than one way. We continue on.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 22, 2017, 08:55:40 PM
There is a reason that I posed the questions about this coil.  Here is the issue:  Threads that go on and on where people delude themselves into believing that they are accomplishing something or doing something significant or making headway into unknown territory.  So nobody stops and says, "What are we doing, what is the end game?"  People are petrified to ask the pretty self-evident questions.

Look at the nonsensical RomeroUK pulse motor.  He claimed his pick-up coils passing through FWBRs where regeneratively powering the motor.  A crazy frenzy ensued but not a single person asked him to scope the common output of all of the FWBRs that was supposedly self-powering the motor.  Then it was found that he was hot-wiring power into the common output of all of the FWBRs.  Look at the "resonant Joule Thief."  That went nowhere, it died.  I pointed out that resonance has absolutely nothing to do with a Joule Thief and the whole concept didn't even make sense.  Look at the ridiculous Bedini windmill pulse motor.  All these people at the conference were in awe at this big slowly rotating windmill.  I asked the questions, "What does it do?" and "What is it for?" and not a single person could answer.  The answer is that it did nothing and they tried to sell it and I think in the end they sold if for scrap metal.

So there is a perfectly valid reason to ask about the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil.  In the patent it clearly states that it is for power factor correction but apparently people want to ignore that.  It's the usual hunt for magic beans without even asking yourselves what this thing is for and what practical uses there are for it.  It takes you out of your Tesla ASMR buzz and asks you for real meaning and real substance.

You think you have some kind of "outside the box" answer?  Then go ahead and state what it is.

Right now all that we have are crickets chirping and the usual Tesla tingles.  The problem is that you can't do a single damn thing with crickets chirping or Tesla tingles.  And I am predicting with high confidence that there are not going to be any answers.  The bottom line is the patent is just a curiosity.  It may have looked interesting at the time, but nothing ever came of it.  It's just one of tens of millions of patents that went nowhere.

And the funny thing is I am sure that there are hard-core Tesla fanatics that are very offended by what I am saying because they think that the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil is the key to some magical free energy device if we only could figure it out.  And I know from experience that 95% of the hardcore Tesla fanatics don't even understand how a coil works.

So my questions stand, and I am not expecting them to be answered in this thread.  And that means my answers to the questions are the true answers.  And the smart ones would then simply move on and get past the fetish over this patent.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 22, 2017, 09:11:28 PM

To me what does not make sense is you think that i don't know what is the difference between a transformer with iron core and ferrite core .
Are you trying to ridicule me? Hope not because seems to me very poor attempt on your part, and if you don't want answer what i ask it's ok to me, but don't fall in the ridicule of try teach something so basic like you did about the transformers theme .
Get some sun man .

Nelson Rocha

No, I had every reason to believe that you did not think about the issues I discussed.  You have not shown any practical use for a Tesla series bifilar pancake coil because using it to make a transformer for power transfer is not realistic and there are better ways to do that.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 22, 2017, 09:36:07 PM

You bash before you comprehend.....all public discussion stops and you claim a victory....you have no idea...you might want to revisit, on second thought...they don't make glasses strong enough to correct your piss poor eyesight.....

You have run out of gas Erfinder, it's just a joke at this point in time.  My eyesight is way better than yours and I understood that fake pulse motor.  Who says public discussion stops?  Stop paying the butt-hurt guy that whines all the time.  This thread is an open canvas for you to share something.  However, you are the little boy that cried wolf all the time and there is no substance.  Why is the sky blue?  There is a real answer to that question, and not some endless series of proddings to get your audience to think outside of the box.  What is blue?  What does it mean to see?  Are we really "seeing" or is it just nerve impulses firing?  Is it really blue, bla bla bla.

The canvas is open for you to actually say something of substance.

Something like this:  No matter what your excitation of the coil or what frequencies you use or what waveform you use, the coil is a passive energy storage device where energy is mostly stored in the magnetic field and some of the energy can potentially be stored in an electric field.  Some energy is also lost through resistance.  For all practical intents and purposes, the coil is just a rag doll that you excite and then observe how it responds.  You can shake the rag doll, spin the rag doll, or hit the rag doll, and in the final analysis it will always be a passive rag doll.

The canvas is open for you.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 22, 2017, 09:37:47 PM
If you have not noticed it really is not so much about the patent,, it is about the coil and what happens with that coil OTHER than what the standard view expects.

And we are still waiting for the tiniest little smidgen of evidence that that is even remotely true.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 22, 2017, 09:43:55 PM
No, I had every reason to believe that you did not think about the issues I discussed.  You have not shown any practical use for a Tesla series bifilar pancake coil because using it to make a transformer for power transfer is not realistic and there are better ways to do that.

What you mean when you say that is not a realistic approach make a transformer to power transfer ?
Did you already try it ? Did you know any report where that was tested to you have sure about that ?
Point me please , because i will like read to compare with what i observed .

thanks
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 22, 2017, 10:02:51 PM
What you mean when you say that is not a realistic approach make a transformer to power transfer ?
Did you already try it ? Did you know any report where that was tested to you have sure about that ?
Point me please , because i will like read to compare with what i observed .

thanks

You basically said, "No there is a good use for a Tesla series bifilar pancake coil for power transfer, take a look at my video clip."

In your clip you make a light bulb light, and you make a motor run.  Big deal, that means nothing.  You didn't prove anything, you just made an anecdotal demonstration with no measurements and no analysis of the data.

I will simply repeat to you that a Tesla series bifilar pancake coil does not demonstrate any advantage for transformer power coupling and there are far better ways to couple power using a transformer.  There are literally thousands of different models of transformers manufactured in the billions by hundreds of companies every year. 

Sorry, the fact that you can make a light bulb light up means nothing.  The burden would be on *you* to present data that this coil does this function in a better way than any other solution. 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 22, 2017, 10:18:15 PM
You basically said, "No there is a good use for a Tesla series bifilar pancake coil for power transfer, take a look at my video clip."

In your clip you make a light bulb light, and you make a motor run.  Big deal, that means nothing.  You didn't prove anything, you just made an anecdotal demonstration with no measurements and no analysis of the data.

I will simply repeat to you that a Tesla series bifilar pancake coil does not demonstrate any advantage for transformer power coupling and there are far better ways to couple power using a transformer.  There are literally thousands of different models of transformers manufactured in the billions by hundreds of companies every year. 

Sorry, the fact that you can make a light bulb light up means nothing.  The burden would be on *you* to present data that this coil does this function in a better way than any other solution.


I basically make a anecdotal demonstration with no measurements and no analysis with a incandescent  light a 100W 230v bulb with a input of 30v and less 2 amp .  I understand how inefficient that is , and anecdotal i could become myself . :)
Please ignore that  , i don't have any intention to confuse your head with anecdotal ideas lol

Nelson Rocha


 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 22, 2017, 10:27:48 PM

I basically make a anecdotal demonstration with no measurements and no analysis with a incandescent  light a 100W 230v bulb with a input of 30v and less 2 amp .  I understand how inefficient that is , and anecdotal i could become myself . :)
Please ignore that  , i don't have any intention to confuse your head with anecdotal ideas lol

Nelson Rocha

Oh, 30 volts x 2 amps = 60 watts, and you made a 100-watt 230-volt light bulb light up?  It sounds amazing.

Did you actually measure the voltage and current through the light bulb?  It's tricky considering that the resistance of the filament varies with temperature.

On this forum, we have seen this countless times before, and it means nothing.  I am going to ignore it, as will everyone else with a basic understanding of these issues.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 22, 2017, 10:32:57 PM
Oh, 30 volts x 2 amps = 60 watts, and you made a 100-watt 230-volt light bulb light up?  It sounds amazing.

Did you actually measure the voltage and current through the light bulb?  It's tricky considering that the resistance of the filament varies with temperature.

On this forum, we have seen this countless times before, and it means nothing.  I am going to ignore it, as will everyone else with a basic understanding of these issues.

Yes just ignore it in that way you head will not get any "junk" by me . Way you systematically try talk not only by you by the others  ?
Did you think others are not able to decide what is good or not ?  seems not .


 Nelson Rocha

PS- See MH , i not only light neon in one hand ;)


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: itsu on April 22, 2017, 11:02:51 PM
Hi Itsu,

To refine this tuning procedure, both coils would need to be paralleled with a variable capacitor
and first both of these capacitors would need to be set to a half capacitance value (half opened capacitors).
This way you could tune any of the coils either above or below of the frequency established by
the half opened capacitors, and this then could help finding the best coupling where the response
has a single peak at the common resonance frequency for both coils.  Both LC circuits mutually detune
each other as they are coupled i.e. getting closer to each other hence the need to either increase or
decrease the individual coil resonancies and this can be done by opening or closing the capacitors.

But this tuning you nicely show in the video may also be enough already to test the load of a LED or
any other load connected to the pick-up coil how it influences the small current consumption of the
main TBP at the paralel resonance - this was the original goal for tuning the pick-up coil to be resonant
with the main TBP coil.

Thanks
Gyula

Gyula,

i did some further tests like you mentioned and put a variable cap across each TBP coil.
Even when 90° turned away and quite a distance away, i see the pickup coil picking up the signal where both coils are on the same resonance frequency.

Approaching the driven coil with the pickup coil shows the split in resonance of both coils which increases more and more untill they are touching each other.
The both resonance points in each coil are a 500KHz away now.

Next i reversed the pickup coil and did an approach again showing that at some point the pickup signal disappears (15cm away from the driven coil).
When further approaching, the signal reappears and the splits in resonance frequency happens again like before.

Finally i went over to a single resonance freqeuncy (no sweeping) to show the phase difference between the both coils signals.
They are either 180° out of phase or when the pickup coils gets reversed in phase.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQEJ08TRNkU


Regards Itsu
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: gyulasun on April 23, 2017, 12:39:11 AM
Hi Itsu,

Probably the big size (volume) of the variable capacitors and the wiring associated with it establishes inherent (capacitive) coupling by default between the two tuned circuits.
Small sized variable capacitors like the ones used in AM pocket radio receivers might behave more favorably. Sorry. 
The unwanted coupling is what I think may now be happening but you maybe cannot remedy this easily and maybe there is no need to do so. 

Regarding the LED is not lit: maybe using a normal load resistor (across the pick up coil) from 10 to say 200 Ohm (just guessing) or a low current wheat lamp would also indicate whether its presence reflect back to the primary coil when the latter is the measurement setup in series with the 10 Ohm. 

Thanks for the video and for doing these tests.   
Gyula
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: itsu on April 23, 2017, 11:59:25 AM
Hi Itsu,

Probably the big size (volume) of the variable capacitors and the wiring associated with it establishes inherent (capacitive) coupling by default between the two tuned circuits.
Small sized variable capacitors like the ones used in AM pocket radio receivers might behave more favorably. Sorry. 
The unwanted coupling is what I think may now be happening but you maybe cannot remedy this easily and maybe there is no need to do so. 

Regarding the LED is not lit: maybe using a normal load resistor (across the pick up coil) from 10 to say 200 Ohm (just guessing) or a low current wheat lamp would also indicate whether its presence reflect back to the primary coil when the latter is the measurement setup in series with the 10 Ohm. 

Thanks for the video and for doing these tests.   
Gyula


Hi Gyula,

yes i figured that the chunky caps and cliplead wiring would be the cause of the coupling on that distance.

I will do some extra tests to get the led lit as it was lit when using my earlier used pickup coil (coiled up wires).


Thanks,   Itsu
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 23, 2017, 12:31:04 PM
Thanks Itsu!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 23, 2017, 03:39:29 PM
Yes just ignore it in that way you head will not get any "junk" by me . Way you systematically try talk not only by you by the others  ?
Did you think others are not able to decide what is good or not ?  seems not .

Are you claiming OU or anything special when you light up your 100-watt 230-volt light bulb with your Tesla series bifilar pancake coil transformer?  Yes or no?

I am pretty sure that the answer is no.  Therefore the fact that you lit the bulb up is pointless, it does not demonstrate anything special about the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil.  There are better ways to make a transformer.  Therefore my questions still stand.

What is the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil good for?  What can you do with it?

Don't get mad at me for asking the questions that all of us should be asking.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 23, 2017, 03:51:17 PM
Are you claiming OU or anything special when you light up your 100-watt 230-volt light bulb with your Tesla series bifilar pancake coil transformer?  Yes or no?

I am pretty sure that the answer is no.  Therefore the fact that you lit the bulb up is pointless, it does not demonstrate anything special about the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil.  There are better ways to make a transformer.  Therefore my questions still stand.

What is the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil good for?  What can you do with it?

Don't get mad at me for asking the questions that all of us should be asking.

The bifilar can help power a large "Ferris Wheel" rotor with a pair of "Radus Magnetic Moon Boots" through "Impulse Magnetization".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: web000x on April 23, 2017, 03:51:30 PM
Are you claiming OU or anything special when you light up your 100-watt 230-volt light bulb with your Tesla series bifilar pancake coil transformer?  Yes or no?

I am pretty sure that the answer is no.  Therefore the fact that you lit the bulb up is pointless, it does not demonstrate anything special about the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil.  Therefore my questions still stand.

What is the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil good for?  What can you do with it?

Don't get mad at me for asking the questions that we all should be asking.


Here's a novel idea... Let people do what they do.  Natural selection of innovation, or lack-there-of, at its finest...


You tell people they waste time looking at the bifilar coil but how much time do you waste telling them there is nothing to it?


I thought I was going to enjoy this thread but haven't been able to digest the whole thing due to the noise level.


Dave
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 23, 2017, 04:23:21 PM
Here's a novel idea... Let people do what they do.  Natural selection of innovation, or lack-there-of, at its finest...

You tell people they waste time looking at the bifilar coil but how much time do you waste telling them there is nothing to it?

I thought I was going to enjoy this thread but haven't been able to digest the whole thing due to the noise level.

Dave

I have a novel concept for you.  I am letting people do what they want to do.  In fact I have no control over what they want to do at all.  You are just playing the same old game where you are "not supposed" to say anything but positive things and if you have nothing positive to say, then don't say anything at all.  That's a sure fire recipe for stagnation and going nowhwere.  I am challenging people to do something that is real, and be realistic about what they are doing.  That is a good thing.  I am not telling people that they are wasting their time, you are just doing a negative spin, don't play straw man on me.

How many threads over the years do you think have been devoted to this Tesla bifilar pancake coil?  I am pretty sure that there have been dozens and dozens of them and I bet you they all petered out and went nowhere without any conclusion at all.

My contribution is not "noise," don't be ridiculous.  I have brought real value to this thread.

Is there any real use for a Tesla bifilar pancake coil?  If you think asking that question is wrong on a thread about the Tesla bifilar pancake coil then you are the one that is wrong.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 23, 2017, 04:38:23 PM

Hi Gyula,

yes i figured that the chunky caps and cliplead wiring would be the cause of the coupling on that distance.

I will do some extra tests to get the led lit as it was lit when using my earlier used pickup coil (coiled up wires).


Thanks,   Itsu

Great clip again Itsu.  I think you were asked to get both coils to resonate together in the hope that something special would happen.  In fact noting special would happen.  Both resonating coils would have higher oscillating currents and therefore the resistive power dissipation would increase for the system.  So if you achieved dual resonance, the power supplied to the system by your function generator would increase, and the corresponding resistive power being burnt off in each resonating coil would increase.

I can already hear some people moaning.  It's time to face reality again:  A self-resonating coil is being driven by an outside power source, in this case it is a function generator.  You clearly see an increase in the oscillating voltage across the coil when it is self-resonant.  What you don't clearly see is an increase in the oscillating current in the coil when it is self-resonant, and the corresponding increase in power dissipation.

In the context of what you are seeing in Itsu's clips, you have to understand and deal with what is really happening in terms of energy and power, and not just "get excited" because you are seeing something resonating.  Just understand and appreciate this valuable and legitimate information without calling me a "bad guy."
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 23, 2017, 04:41:45 PM
Are you claiming OU or anything special when you light up your 100-watt 230-volt light bulb with your Tesla series bifilar pancake coil transformer?  Yes or no?

I am pretty sure that the answer is no.  Therefore the fact that you lit the bulb up is pointless, it does not demonstrate anything special about the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil.  There are better ways to make a transformer.  Therefore my questions still stand.

What is the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil good for?  What can you do with it?

Don't get mad at me for asking the questions that all of us should be asking.


I not make claim’s of any important points of my particular work on this forum or in others forums .
 I don't need catch attention to promote my work , but i like give my own opinion too , and i know even you don't agree with me in some points, you could respect my own opinion like i respect your opinion even we could disagree .

I just give you a example how that pancake coils could be used to transfer electric power in a efficient way  without ferrite or iron core like normal transformer use, contrary to what you defend until now and i respect that .

That is based in my own and practical observation of course ,Precisely the opposite of what you do all time, because you are a pure “theorist”.
You could assume that my observation are wrong, and that could happen because i learn in my life that not all that glitters is gold , and that is the reason to my work be evaluated not only by me but by other more qualified people, and that is really fair don't you think ?
In that way you could assume clearly that i don't need your approval in relation to this matter.

You have your own opinion based in your particular knowledge , not in a practical way, but based in assumed  “evidences” like indisputable and irrefutable laws.

Did i claim OU in my observations ? No
If i achieve  OU will i publish that to you ? Of course not . What i could espect if i assume that ? Problems and more  problems :) nothing more .
I just say to you that is possible transfer with high efficiency electric power with bifilar pancake coil , and that is a advantage to a conventional transformer because don't need use iron ferrite in their core .

Why i should get mad with you ? You are a nice person even we have so high differences in how you are in life, and how we treat other persons .

Have a nice day MH

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: web000x on April 23, 2017, 04:54:57 PM
I have a novel concept for you.  I am letting people do what they want to do.  In fact I have no control over what they want to do at all.  You are just playing the same old game where you are "not supposed" to say anything but positive things and if you have nothing positive to say, then don't say anything at all.  That's a sure fire recipe for stagnation and going nowhwere.  I am challenging people to do something that is real, and be realistic about what they are doing.  That is a good thing.  I am not telling people that they are wasting their time, you are just doing a negative spin, don't play straw man on me.

How many threads over the years do you think have been devoted to this Tesla bifilar pancake coil?  I am pretty sure that there have been dozens and dozens of them and I bet you they all petered out and went nowhere without any conclusion at all.

My contribution is not "noise," don't be ridiculous.  I have brought real value to this thread.

Is there any real use for a Tesla bifilar pancake coil?  If you think asking that question is wrong on a thread about the Tesla bifilar pancake coil then you are the one that is wrong.


Well, seeing that the bifilar coil engenders a situation of mutual induction, mutual capacity,(MK) self induction, and self capacity,(LC) it would seem like it has all of the requirements for Dollard's four quadrant theory of electricity.   I feel the idea of further investigation should not be dismissed as I've seen things with my own eyes that show that the MK form of propagation does not behave the same as the LC.  Not to mention that I was privy to a few skype conversations with Erfinder. No matter how many times you tell us there is nothing to the bifilar coil, I will never forget my experiences and will continue investigation.


Dave
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 23, 2017, 05:06:54 PM
I just give you a example how that pancake coils could be used to transfer electric power in a efficient way  without ferrite or iron core like normal transformer use, contrary to what you defend until now and i respect that

Why i should get mad with you ? You are a nice person even we have so high differences in how you are in life, and how we treat other persons .

You could make an air-core transformer based on two adjacent solenoid coils for your experiment and they would easily outperform you air-core pancake coil transformer.  Therefore the air-core solenoid transformer would be more efficient than your air-core pancake coil transformer.

Do you understand why this would be the case?  The geometry of a pancake coil is no good for making an air-core transformer.

Don't try dropping your "how we treat other persons" comment on me.  Look at your own behaviour and how you treated me when you first started talking to me.  I am speaking honestly and openly about the pancake coil, and that does NOT make me a "bad guy."  This nonsense needs to stop.  Do you know the English expression, "Don't shoot the messenger?"  I am pretty sure you have the same expression or an equivalent expression in German.

We are still looking for a valid reason to use a Tesla bifilar pancake coil and so far there is none.  And saying that does not make me a bad guy.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 23, 2017, 05:20:34 PM

Well, seeing that the bifilar coil engenders a situation of mutual induction, mutual capacity,(MK) self induction, and self capacity,(LC) it would seem like it has all of the requirements for Dollard's four quadrant theory of electricity.   I feel the idea of further investigation should not be dismissed as I've seen things with my own eyes that show that the MK form of propagation does not behave the same as the LC.  Not to mention that I was privy to a few skype conversations with Erfinder. No matter how many times you tell us there is nothing to the bifilar coil, I will never forget my experiences and will continue investigation.

Dave

Well I can't comment on anything Eric Dollard has to say.  What I can say is that "four quadrants" with respect to electrical concepts is actually common terminology.  You often talk about the four-quadrant output capabilities of an an amplifier, as an example.  We often deal with polar coordinates when discussing electronic circuits and four quadrants come into play there also.  Then there is the "S Plane" for transfer function analysis of a circuit and that also has four quadrants.

I am still waiting for Erfinder to say something of substance from my perspective.  Or call it "the establishment" perspective.  You know, like that thing called the "electronics industry" and if you take the wide definition of that term it is the largest industry on the face of the Earth.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 23, 2017, 05:37:28 PM
“You could make an air-core transformer based on two adjacent solenoid coils for your experiment and they would easily outperform you air-core pancake coil transformer.  Therefore the air-core solenoid transformer would be more efficient than your air-core pancake coil transformer.”

Did you think i did not make that test already ?


“Do you understand why this would be the case?  The geometry of a pancake coil is no good for making an air-core transformer.”

That apply if you think in a Magnetic coupling not in a capacitive coupling way.


“Don't try dropping your "how we treat other persons" comment on me.  Look at your own behavior and how you treated me when you first started talking to me.  I am speaking honestly and openly about the pancake coil, and that does NOT make me a "bad guy."  This nonsense needs to stop.  Do you know the English expression, "Don't shoot the messenger?"  I am pretty sure you have the same expression or an equivalent expression in German.”

I never was disrespectful to you ,and i never talk that you are a bad person, myself believe that  people could change to better persons with time and with life experience , but sometimes you could be a bit hard with some judges that you made in relation to work of some persons , and that is not about the ability to judge, but with the ability to respect others , and sometimes you simple forget that . For sure you can not use your prominent intelligence to support such behaviors .

I will say again :

I respect you opinions and i’m not promote anything against’s you or anyone .
Just to clear , im not German i’m Portuguese even i need work in German most of the times because nature of my work , and i will never follow that expression “"Don't shoot the messenger"
because i enjoy have a good life and meet people   and i do not I waste energy on something I do not consider productive.

Enjoy the day

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 23, 2017, 05:54:34 PM
I never was disrespectful to you ,and i never talk that you are a bad person, myself believe that  people could change to better persons with time and with life experience , but sometimes you could be a bit hard with some judges that you made in relation to work of some persons , and that is not about the ability to judge, but with the ability to respect others , and sometimes you simple forget that . For sure you can not use your prominent intelligence to support such behaviors .

You were incredibly disrespectful towards me, in fact you were abusive towards me.  You have to learn to speak the truth, even if English is not your first language.  No BS, speak the truth.

I do not "forget about respecting others."  I simply speak the truth about the technical issues that I am interested in and that gets twisted by people with fragile egos into me supposedly being a bad or insensitive person.

Stop trying all the time to be manipulative in your comments with all sorts of fake character assassination.  Just talk your technical stuff and leave it at that.  The truth:  You have not shown that Tesla series bifilar pancake coils have any practical uses or applications.  That is where we are right now in the technical discussion.  We are still trying to find an actual legitimate use for a Tesla series bifilar coil and so far there is none.  Speak the truth.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 23, 2017, 05:57:57 PM
You were incredibly disrespectful towards me, in fact you were abusive towards me.  You have to learn to speak the truth, even if English is not your first language.  No BS, speak the truth.

I do not "forget about respecting others."  I simply speak the truth about the technical issues that I am interested in and that gets twisted by people with fragile egos into me supposedly being a bad or insensitive person.

Stop trying all the time to be manipulative in your comments with all sorts of fake character assassination.  Just talk your technical stuff and leave it at that.  The truth:  You have not shown that Tesla pancake coils have any practical uses or applications.  That is where we are right now in the technical discussion.  We are still trying to find an actual legitimate use for a Tesla series bifilar coil and so far there is none.  Speak the truth.

Did you think i'm incredibly disrespectful towards to you ?? Abusive ?? Really sorry if i make you feel in that way.
You already know the solution : ignore me . I think is available that option in this forum .
Have a nice day

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 23, 2017, 06:01:32 PM
Close your eyes....hold your breath and say ahhhh, right when you are about to gasp for breath, choke on your flaccid perspective....  You need to wake up from that wet dream you're having about being the voice of the establishment, the poster child of the electronics industry....  I made it clear to you ages ago that I choose not to speak your language, deal with it, in a manner similar to how we deal with you not leaving us to our illusions. 

I rather enjoy deluding myself.....I'm starting to think you enjoy watching one delude oneself.....I mean....you know no one is listening to you, aside from the one or two straddling the fence....  Your perspective needs help...I recommend the blue pill, chased down by two large shots of the green fairy......

enough meat on the bone for you frequent flyer....not a question....

I do the Red Pill.  And you still haven't said a single damn thing of substance about this topic.  You don't even understand how a coil works.  Why don't you do that first, and then come back and join the discussion.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 23, 2017, 06:02:46 PM
Did you think i'm incredibly disrespectful towards to you ?? Abusive ?? Really sorry if i make you feel in that way.
You already know the solution : ignore me . I think is available that option in this forum .

You should take a Red Pill also.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 23, 2017, 07:36:16 PM
You were incredibly disrespectful towards me, in fact you were abusive towards me.  You have to learn to speak the truth, even if English is not your first language.  No BS, speak the truth.

I do not "forget about respecting others."  I simply speak the truth about the technical issues that I am interested in and that gets twisted by people with fragile egos into me supposedly being a bad or insensitive person.

Stop trying all the time to be manipulative in your comments with all sorts of fake character assassination.  Just talk your technical stuff and leave it at that.  The truth:  You have not shown that Tesla series bifilar pancake coils have any practical uses or applications.  That is where we are right now in the technical discussion.  We are still trying to find an actual legitimate use for a Tesla series bifilar coil and so far there is none.  Speak the truth.

These guys actually do experiments and work with coils, of which you are only cut, past and link.
And whether they tell you all they know or not, you assume and publicly degrade their knowledge, basically compared to your cut paste and link role here. Respect that.

If you would like, as I have done very well in the past, I can cut, paste AND link you being disrespectful here in this thread alone. Respect that.

You probably have more posts here than anyone and not even a resistor or cheap dvm on the kitchen table. Nothing.  And you 'demand respect'. Oh how I cower when TK grabs your hand and helps you up on a pedestal made of wet mud. Ooo, some respect from someone. ::)

Screw your respect. You are a troll here. Most of what you post is just belittling others trying to do what this site is here for. Whether there is a positive end result at the end of the day, you will be here to declare the 'Move along people, nothing more to see here, The only one here that know anything is me', EVERY DAY!!!!  Every day. You have no right to belittle anyone that 'tries', and then demand respect after delivering disrespect.  You are delusional if you think most look at you as the authority. Just look at the number of people here in this thread alone have corrected your self proclaimed mistakes.  ::) Tk can hold your hand all he wants in order to 'give' you some appearance of high standing here, yet there are times he needs to correct you here n there.  Sure you know some basics. But purposely you pad with incorrect values and functions that are only to degrade the subject to make it look as bad as possible and follow your 'nothing there" narrative.  Again, like your plugging a value of 10ohm on a uh, pf tightly wound bifi that was clearly made of at the least 18ga wire, then saying it was a mistake, and then further proclaiming that you confused TKs resistance value with Conrads. Lol, yeah, I make it a point to remember the details of what you say, as you know very well.  ;) Your 10ohm plug resulted in 'your proCLAIMED' result of 110w loss in the resistance and laid it out as an AUTHORITY figure.  Respect??  You are like CNN 'fake news'.  Maybe they have a nice vaccine with pig virus infected Australian green monkey cells, aborted baby fluids, a sprinkle of aluminum and a touch of mercury for that. All actual CDC admitted ingredients for such.

Right now I am warning you. I had laid out the conditions of this topic area that there will be no bashing or talk that pushes negative views of the subject, degrading others for their efforts and knowledge, as it is all just garbage that fills the pages and nothing gets done.  All you have done here is say 'You cant do it', 'It cant be done', 'you are all delusional', 'Nothing more to learn here'  No wonder nobody gets anything accomplished when they have to deal with you all day, page after page.

Set up a bench and cut the crap. Radioshacks are closing left and right. All components 60% off. Soldering irons, circuit boards and wires, oh my.

Show the respect that you demand and maybe you will get some that you seem to desire but not getting apparently. ;)


Mags

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 23, 2017, 08:11:41 PM
Nope, I am not willfully demeaning or degrading anybody, that is all just a bunch of spin.  Sure, sometimes I have pushed back when I am pushed on, that's normal and I am only human.

The essence of this whole pitch is this:  I will question something or comment honestly on it's validity or usefulness and that is twisted into "demeaning or degrading" something or someone.

Well, it's NOT TRUE and you have to be a big enough person to see this, just like you have to be a big enough person to do an experiment and hear that it has no real value towards the goal you are trying to reach if that is indeed the case.

And doing that has real value and you know it.

Who says that I "demand respect" and the negative connotations associated with that?  The answer is YOU doing a spin job on me.  Don't you dare say I am a troll.  Do you remember your one full year of super trolling when you teamed up with Synchro1?  I am no troll, that is just another ridiculous gratuitous negative spin.

Who says that I am "belittling people" and the negative connotations associated with that?  One more time, the answer is YOU doing a spin job on me.

Quote
But purposely you pad with incorrect values and functions that are only to degrade the subject to make it look as bad as possible

Did you not hear what I already told you?  I did not "purposely" pad anything.  That whole story is just more negative spin and more seriously, you succumbing to your obsessive fixation with me and falling back into your bad ways.  You know exactly what I am talking about.

What am I trying to accomplish?  Simple, I am asking if there is any practical use or value to the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil.  That's what I am really trying to discuss, SERIOUSLY.  So why can't you just discuss it and stop all of this nonsense?

Somebody says, "Look, I can light a light bulb with a Tesla series bifilar pancake coil."  And I say "So what, there are better ways to do that."  And you guys are going to get all butt-hurt for me saying something that is true?  But here is the issue that frustrates me:  NONE of you would have spoken the TRUTH like I did.  If you can't speak the TRUTH, then you've got nothing.

Talk about the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil.  That's what I am here for, to talk about that.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 23, 2017, 08:15:32 PM
Are these supposed to be the hard questions that no one else is asking??

No, they are the hard questions that so far nobody is ANSWERING.

Since you guys are all so butt hurt that I speak the truth, I will wait a couple of weeks and just watch to see if anything tangible gets accomplished.  Will there be a valid answer to my legitimate questions?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 23, 2017, 08:47:22 PM
No, they are the hard questions that so far nobody is ANSWERING.

Since you guys are all so butt hurt that I speak the truth, I will wait a couple of weeks and just watch to see if anything tangible gets accomplished.  Will there be a valid answer to my legitimate questions?

And just what does butt hurt actually mean?  And after your previous post of you only speaking truth and technical, and you are not disrespecting anyone? I know exactly what you mean by that, and so do others.

 
So again, what did you actually(exactly) mean by 'butt hurt' in your statement?  I want to know the complete technical aspect of the term as is corresponds to the topic, as you previously on this very page described your angelic social personality here, and claimed that is all you are here for is providing truth to the topic at hand and not being disrespectful of anyone.

Now I will address the previous post...

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 23, 2017, 09:53:32 PM
Nope, I am not willfully demeaning or degrading anybody, that is all just a bunch of spin.  Sure, sometimes I have pushed back when I am pushed on, that's normal and I am only human.

The essence of this whole pitch is this:  I will question something or comment honestly on it's validity or usefulness and that is twisted into "demeaning or degrading" something or someone.

Well, it's NOT TRUE and you have to be a big enough a person to see this, just like you have to be a big enough person to do an experiment and hear that it has no real value towards the goal you are trying to reach if that is indeed the case.

And doing that has real value and you know it.

Who says that I "demand respect" and the negative connotations associated with that?  The answer is YOU doing a spin job on me.  Don't you dare say I am a troll.  Do you remember your one full year of super trolling when you teamed up with Synchro1?  I am no troll, that is just another ridiculous gratuitous negative spin.

Who says that I am "belittling people" and the negative connotations associated with that?  One more time, the answer is YOU doing a spin job on me.

Did you not hear what I already told you?  I did not "purposely" pad anything.  That whole story is just more negative spin and more seriously, you succumbing to your obsessive fixation with me and falling back into your bad ways.  You know exactly what I am talking about.

What am I trying to accomplish?  Simple, I am asking if there is any practical use or value to the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil.  That's what I am really trying to discuss, SERIOUSLY.  So why can't you just discuss it and stop all of this nonsense?

Somebody says, "Look, I can light a light bulb with a Tesla series bifilar pancake coil."  And I say "So what, there are better ways to do that."  And you guys are going to get all butt-hurt for me saying something that is true?  But here is the issue that frustrates me:  NONE of you would have spoken the TRUTH like I did.  If you can't speak the TRUTH, then you've got nothing.

Talk about the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil.  That's what I am here for, to talk about that.

"Nope, I am not willfully demeaning or degrading anybody"   

Oh yeah? Well in the next post after this one you describe everyone as butt hurt, like you got some sexual gratification from that or something.  Your words, your mindset.  Go ahead and define butt hurt as you stated it.  Im dying to here your smear on that one to 'try' and make it seems like anything else than what it actually means. Your pathetic from one post to the next.

Again, I just tear you up with your own statements.


"The essence of this whole pitch is this:  I will question something or comment honestly on it's validity or usefulness and that is twisted into "demeaning or degrading" something or someone.

Ok then. Should I go through just the last 10 pages and repost quotes and links of your posts and it will definitely show you lie about demeaning and or degrading someone. You know I have done it before and you cried injustice. Just this page alone you call us butt hurt and that we do not understand coils at all, etc, etc. of which both just from this page cover the demeaning and degrading portion of your above statement. There is much more in the past 10 pages that refute your statement again and again.


"Well, it's NOT TRUE and you have to be a big enough a person to see this, just like you have to be a big enough person to do an experiment and hear that it has no real value towards the goal you are trying to reach if that is indeed the case."

What a load of crap!! I HAVE to hear that it has no real value towards the goal you are trying to reach???  WHAT??? Do you think you can hypnotize me with your suggestive speak?  Heck no I dont HAVE to do that, along with you basically calling me a small person by saying i have to be big enough??  Jeckle and hide from post to post.


"Who says that I "demand respect" and the negative connotations associated with that?  The answer is YOU doing a spin job on me.  Don't you dare say I am a troll.  Do you remember your one full year of super trolling when you teamed up with Synchro1?  I am no troll, that is just another ridiculous gratuitous negative spin.

lol, you still bringing that up like you have it to cut and paste to put out a fire in your lap. I put shmackdown on you and you spin it as I was the one that thought that a red led lit at 1.5v.  lol Get over it jim. It aint working anymore.  ::)


"Did you not hear what I already told you?  I did not "purposely" pad anything.  That whole story is just more negative spin and more seriously, you succumbing to your obsessive fixation with me and falling back into your bad ways.  You know exactly what I am talking about."

Well i believe that you purposely do pad to protect your view.  Like why is it always when you pull these mistakes, it always seems to fall more towards your benefit and making things look really bad as compared to the actual truth? Its never a 'mistake' that would make your agenda look bad, it is always the other very negative looking direction. So I claim that I do believe you pad on purpose. That is that. You cant change MY mind on that.



"What am I trying to accomplish?  Simple, I am asking if there is any practical use or value to the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil.  That's what I am really trying to discuss, SERIOUSLY.  So why can't you just discuss it and stop all of this nonsense?"

You know very well that just because you have asked the question and that others do not answer you now does not say that there is no answer. And you perpetuate that there will be no answer and you purposely just about every day try to propagandize the idea that there absolutely will never be an answer to indoctrinate the readers into your tiny little world. Yeah, thats the way I see it.

Ive written you off long ago. So most of what you post is meaningless to me.


"Somebody says, "Look, I can light a light bulb with a Tesla series bifilar pancake coil."  And I say "So what, there are better ways to do that."  And you guys are going to get all butt-hurt for me saying something that is true?  But here is the issue that frustrates me:  NONE of you would have spoken the TRUTH like I did.  If you can't speak the TRUTH, then you've got nothing."

Again, butt hurt.  So you are suggesting, again, what?  Oh, that you kicked butts and thats why they hurt? I was beginning to think you might have had relations with some of the guys, as butt hurt usually relates to that. ;) Your words, your mindset.

http://persephonemagazine.com/2013/01/can-we-please-stop-using-the-term-butthurt/

Mags



Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 23, 2017, 10:40:24 PM
I was beginning to think you might have had relations with some of the guys, as butt hurt usually relates to that.

Well, you really made yourself look good with that comment.

I put shmackdown on you and you spin it as I was the one that thought that a red led lit at 1.5v.

You didn't put a "shmackdown" on me about the "critical" issue of the forward voltage of a LED.  Along with Synchro1, you demeaned and degraded me for one full year and it was mostly a discussion about a faked pulse motor clip on YouTube that you thought might be real.  It was mean and ugly and gratuitous and horrible.  You were like some crazed person at a lynching.  We all saw what Sychro1's behaviour was like on this very thread.

For all the readers, imagine the same thing for one full year but coming from two people instead of one.  How would you like to be in that position, attacked and demeaned and degraded every single day by Magluvin and Synchro1, like some tag-team from hell?  That gross and disgusting misconduct by you and Synchro1 is to both of your eternal shame.  You have absolutely nothing to be "proud" of about that.  Your inner beast came out, your Id, and it was absolutely disgusting and revolting.  And to double-down on your shame, you have never even had the character to apologize for it.  There is the real smack-down for you.  Your character is permanently stained by that incident.

So I claim that I do believe you pad on purpose. That is that. You cant change MY mind on that.

So here we go again.  It took me nearly two hours to make that posting doing the power analysis for the self-resonating coil.  By the way, that power analysis is something that you have never seen on a website devoted to researching energy, have you?  I wouldn't be surprised if the idea for doing this never even occurred to you.  I was using the so-so Windows calculator and I had to do about a dozen or so calculations.  Then to be sure that I am right I then always work the calculations back from the complimentary formula to make sure that things check out.  And one of my calculations was not checking out.  I went over and over it and calculated it again and again and it was not checking out.  I was getting really tired and frustrated, I could not see where I was messing up.  Finally, after a long time I realized that in one of my formulas I had the numerator and denominator backwards, and that's why the double-check was not working.  Finally, after a ton of effort I got it right.  Then I had to plug the proper resistance value into the formulas now that they were finally working.  I thought, oh no, I am so tired and now I have to watch Conrad's clips over again and see if I can catch him stating the value of the coil resistance.  I was too tired and I recalled watching TK's clip and decided to take his number because by this point I was exhausted.

So IS THAT GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU?  I go through all this effort to make a contribution and I get useless crap and gratuitous negative spinning from you.  And not a single comment from anybody about the actual analysis itself and what it means.

You have nothing on me, Mags, nothing.  And if somebody else got the coil resistance wrong or the forward voltage of a LED wrong, you might correct them but beyond that you would not say a single damn thing.  STOP your unhealthy sick obsession about me.

Now, I will wait a few weeks to see if anything comes of this thread.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 23, 2017, 10:51:41 PM


Now, I will wait a few weeks to see if anything comes of this thread.

Ok, see ya then. Cool. ;D

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 23, 2017, 11:07:03 PM
Ok, see ya then. Cool. ;D

Mags

Cool Magsy, being flippant is a so-so deflection strategy and meanwhile you can contemplate the hate in your heart.

In a few weeks, looking forward to seeing the killer Tesla series bifilar pancake coil app.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 24, 2017, 10:02:51 AM
These guys actually do experiments and work with coils, of which you are only cut, past and link.
And whether they tell you all they know or not, you assume and publicly degrade their knowledge, basically compared to your cut paste and link role here. Respect that.

If you would like, as I have done very well in the past, I can cut, paste AND link you being disrespectful here in this thread alone. Respect that.

You probably have more posts here than anyone and not even a resistor or cheap dvm on the kitchen table. Nothing.  And you 'demand respect'. Oh how I cower when TK grabs your hand and helps you up on a pedestal made of wet mud. Ooo, some respect from someone. ::)

Screw your respect. You are a troll here. Most of what you post is just belittling others trying to do what this site is here for. Whether there is a positive end result at the end of the day, you will be here to declare the 'Move along people, nothing more to see here, The only one here that know anything is me', EVERY DAY!!!!  Every day. You have no right to belittle anyone that 'tries', and then demand respect after delivering disrespect.  You are delusional if you think most look at you as the authority. Just look at the number of people here in this thread alone have corrected your self proclaimed mistakes.  ::) Tk can hold your hand all he wants in order to 'give' you some appearance of high standing here, yet there are times he needs to correct you here n there.  Sure you know some basics. But purposely you pad with incorrect values and functions that are only to degrade the subject to make it look as bad as possible and follow your 'nothing there" narrative.  Again, like your plugging a value of 10ohm on a uh, pf tightly wound bifi that was clearly made of at the least 18ga wire, then saying it was a mistake, and then further proclaiming that you confused TKs resistance value with Conrads. Lol, yeah, I make it a point to remember the details of what you say, as you know very well.  ;) Your 10ohm plug resulted in 'your proCLAIMED' result of 110w loss in the resistance and laid it out as an AUTHORITY figure.  Respect??  You are like CNN 'fake news'.  Maybe they have a nice vaccine with pig virus infected Australian green monkey cells, aborted baby fluids, a sprinkle of aluminum and a touch of mercury for that. All actual CDC admitted ingredients for such.

Right now I am warning you. I had laid out the conditions of this topic area that there will be no bashing or talk that pushes negative views of the subject, degrading others for their efforts and knowledge, as it is all just garbage that fills the pages and nothing gets done.  All you have done here is say 'You cant do it', 'It cant be done', 'you are all delusional', 'Nothing more to learn here'  No wonder nobody gets anything accomplished when they have to deal with you all day, page after page.

Set up a bench and cut the crap. Radioshacks are closing left and right. All components 60% off. Soldering irons, circuit boards and wires, oh my.

Show the respect that you demand and maybe you will get some that you seem to desire but not getting apparently. ;)


Mags

Mag's

Maybe have a read of a few of erfinder's post's,and you will see that MHs aint so bad.

Why dose one get a serve,and not the other?

I have read all of this thread,as it continue's,and all i see is MH stating what is obvious.

There is so much hipe over the BPC,and yet,no one to date has shown that there is anything wonderful about it.
Sure,we get the !erfinder's! continual rant's,on how wonderful it is,but he hasnt been able to back up his rambling's with a single thing of substance-as is the case in every thread he is in--the nothingness of everything.

So far,the only thing i see that is great about it(the BPC),is the name behind it--Tesla.

Is there anyone here,that has something out of the ordinary to show,regarding the BPC ?

Mag's,i trust in you,and so i ask you--do you,or have you found anything interesting about the BPC yet?,that dose not exist in an ordinary coil.

I know we have an even potential voltage difference between turns-unlike other coils,but what dose that do,that sets it apart from any other coil?

You know i have two identical coils(one a BPC,and the other a single wound coil),in that they have the same amount of wire,the same kind of wire,and the same physical size.
The only thing i have found different between the two,is the BPC has a lower resonant frequency-by about 26.5KHz. Other than that,they both perform the same in every way i have tested them.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 24, 2017, 10:38:56 AM
well
there actually are some "anomalies" which are going to be discussed
but at the moment there is a member here calling the builders at OU.com  Liars who Hide OU
member Zephir...
and one thread has been shut down [Grum's Nelson build thread
so why start another here ?
have been waiting to hear back from Stefan about this fellow?

still waiting ,he has been moving house

has anyone bin able to reach Stefan??

I will try to call him again tonight
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: hoptoad on April 24, 2017, 10:51:30 AM
snip...
There is so much hipe over the BPC,and yet,no one to date has shown that there is anything wonderful about it.
snip....
So far,the only thing i see that is great about it(the BPC),is the name behind it--Tesla.
snip...
My questions are, what did Tesla think was great about it?(1), and what purpose did he envision for it(2)?
His answer is :

" Let A, Fig. 1, designate any given coil the spires or convolutions of which are wound upon and insulated from each other. Let it be assumed that the terminals of this coil show a potential difference of one hundred volts, and that there are one thousand convolutions; then considering any two contiguous points on adjacent convolutions let it be assumed that there will exist between them a potential difference of one-tenth of a volt. If now, as shown in Fig. 2, a conductor B be wound parallel with the conductor A and insulated from it, and the end of A be connected with the starting point of B, the aggregate length of the two conductors being such that the assumed number of convolutions or turns is the same, viz., one thousand, then the potential difference between any two adjacent points in A and B will be fifty volts, and as the capacity effect is proportionate to the square of this difference, the energy stored in the coil(2) as a whole will now be two hundred and fifty thousand as great(1). Following out this principle, I may wind any given coil either in whole or in part, not only in the specific manner herein illustrated, but in a great variety of ways, well-known in the art, so as to secure between adjacent convolutions such potential difference as will give the proper capacity to neutralize the self-induction for any given current that may be employed. Capacity secured in this particular way possesses an additional advantage in that it is evenly distributed, a consideration of the greatest importance in many cases, and the results, both as to efficiency and economy, are the more readily and easily obtained as the size of the coils, the potential difference, or frequency of the currents are increased. "

From Nicola Tesla himself : https://teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla/patents/us-patent-512340-coil-electro-magnets (https://teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla/patents/us-patent-512340-coil-electro-magnets)

Obviously Tesla thought energy storage(2) in a coil was a good thing. To do what?, is my next question, though the title of the patent, "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS" is probably the self evident answer.  :)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Dog-One on April 24, 2017, 12:44:27 PM
Obviously Tesla thought energy storage(2) in a coil was a good thing. To do what?

Still not seeing it yet?

Have you checked this thread (http://overunity.com/17119/pulling-energy-from-the-ambient-energy-field-using-a-coil-capacitor/)?

Observe the pancake coil carefully.  Do you see any core?  Where do you suppose the energy
(or whatever you would like to refer to it as) is being stored?

Capacity my friend, think about what that must be.  Try substituting the word "capacity" for
"ability to __________".

Hint:  Jack fills in the blank in this post (http://overunity.com/17119/pulling-energy-from-the-ambient-energy-field-using-a-coil-capacitor/msg505358/#msg505358).
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 24, 2017, 01:34:33 PM
Mag's

Maybe have a read of a few of erfinder's post's,and you will see that MHs aint so bad.

Why dose one get a serve,and not the other?

I have read all of this thread,as it continue's,and all i see is MH stating what is obvious.

There is so much hipe over the BPC,and yet,no one to date has shown that there is anything wonderful about it.
Sure,we get the !erfinder's! continual rant's,on how wonderful it is,but he hasnt been able to back up his rambling's with a single thing of substance-as is the case in every thread he is in--the nothingness of everything.

So far,the only thing i see that is great about it(the BPC),is the name behind it--Tesla.

Is there anyone here,that has something out of the ordinary to show,regarding the BPC ?

Mag's,i trust in you,and so i ask you--do you,or have you found anything interesting about the BPC yet?,that dose not exist in an ordinary coil.

I know we have an even potential voltage difference between turns-unlike other coils,but what dose that do,that sets it apart from any other coil?

You know i have two identical coils(one a BPC,and the other a single wound coil),in that they have the same amount of wire,the same kind of wire,and the same physical size.
The only thing i have found different between the two,is the BPC has a lower resonant frequency-by about 26.5KHz. Other than that,they both perform the same in every way i have tested them.


Brad

Hey brad

"Maybe have a read of a few of erfinder's post's,and you will see that MHs aint so bad."

But since the other day he has cleaned it up and i reflected that here already. As far as Im concerned he is fine as maybe he does not divulge his way of using the coils, he does intrigue optimism that I want to see more of. If there is something more to try with this then that is what needs to come next, as tk is done, and you agree with MH now that there is nothing more to see. Thats not the brad I thought I knew. The Brad that comes up with out of the box ideas on things that captures everyones attn. Where did ya go?  Miss ya.


'I have read all of this thread,as it continue's,and all i see is MH stating what is obvious."

Lets agree that i did say when I first entered here that i believe that there is something other than the resonant freq that we need to look at. The title of the thread does not make a claim. It names a thread on the subject. So I may have to open a new thread to avoid the resonance issue being at the chopper.  And when I or Er say something that tries to point out that there are other things to try, MH pounces on that as if he knows all else above all others imaginations. BS man, bs.

Now if you call it quits and are finished as you have not found there to be any advantages to the bifi at resonance, only by redoing others experiments, I have to sigh.


"There is so much hipe over the BPC,and yet,no one to date has shown that there is anything wonderful about it.
Sure,we get the !erfinder's! continual rant's,on how wonderful it is,but he hasnt been able to back up his rambling's with a single thing of substance-as is the case in every thread he is in--the nothingness of everything."

MH says there is nothing more to try. Nothing. ER says there is.  MH puts together examples using false data, where the outcome always leans even more in his favor . Er has not provided falsities that anyone can point out so far. I have found the ER will let you know if you are going in the right direction, just that you have to ask the right questions. Im ok with that. If it all turns out bunk then you can say otherwise. Mh will daily press that there are no more directions to go. Like is that warming on you here?? You removed ERs post, but mh gets to run nelson off and just puke on every new thought that arrives. Let me ask you. Just because ER does not tell you much and considering what you have seen of his vids, would you absolutely agree with MH that he does not know how a coil works??? if so, you are scaring me now. Is the world flat? Does the earth rotate around the sun?? If not, got proof?  Well back when these discoveries, earth ball, sun is the center of solar system, there were those that argued it based on the tight box surrounding them, not an open mind to new possibilities.


"So far,the only thing i see that is great about it(the BPC),is the name behind it--Tesla."

So far that is all we have tried is resonance tests and some inductive coupling tests, of which there has to be more to diversify the tests. But thats fine if you agree with mh that there is no further to go. Im not in that lot.  Ive been on and off on the bifi. Im slow. It most likely takes me more time to 'write' this stuff than most let alone... I have a deeper view of it than I ever had as in the details that make it something much different than a single wire coil or even a typical LC. Ive stated my new views and have more to state, as i get time.


"Mag's,i trust in you,and so i ask you--do you,or have you found anything interesting about the BPC yet?,that dose not exist in an ordinary coil."

I listed a couple things earlier..

Test transformer action between windings

Test with pulsed input. Not square wave where it it on and then held to 0v, pulse and let it go, spark gap, quenched or not, or some other ideas that are out there.

Test for the possibility of the internal capacitance charging before the inductor allows current to flow.  If it charges, did current flow without the impedance of the inductance? etc

Those are not ridiculous ideas. Thats just 3 things and there are more.

Im working on the idea of the possibility of 3 different voltage levels possible due to the capacitance mod of the bifi. It is in the works as to how to go about testing for that.  Yeah it is just a theory so far, but that is what we need is new things to do, not there is nothing more to see. If thats what most all this has come to then the free energy was just an imaginary fad and is fading away.

Just because nothing so far has been found does not mean that it is not there as MH presses as a certainty day in and day out.


"I know we have an even potential voltage difference between turns-unlike other coils,but what dose that do,that sets it apart from any other coil?"

I see the fact that the capacitance IS in the coil as a different thing than having a separate cap and coil of an lc..  It operates as a parallel, but would seem to be series also if we look at it electrically, the cap can only charge through the body of the coil. How does the greater charge difference between turns affect the induction, and like I said earlier, the ones that claim E field is how induction works, wouldnt one think that the field between turns of a bifi and a normal coil to possibly have a huge effect on that idea, yet it doesnt show so far?

I dont believe that the capacitance is literally increased as much as the fact that the wiring arrangement helps provide a much higher voltage level compared to a single wire coil making that capacitance capable of higher capacity because of the augmented voltage differences for each. 

There is always more to do. So maybe we make a new thread that looks beyond resonance, or we can just keep on going here.


"You know i have two identical coils(one a BPC,and the other a single wound coil),in that they have the same amount of wire,the same kind of wire,and the same physical size.
The only thing i have found different between the two,is the BPC has a lower resonant frequency-by about 26.5KHz. Other than that,they both perform the same in every way i have tested them."

I had posted a thing to try. Did TK do this already?....

Im under the impression that the bifi has a couple different capacitances and that the bifi has the augmented voltage between turns, but it also has the same capacitance between turns between end to end of the coil. So I think the bifi of the same dimensions and wire can also resonate at the same freq as the single wire coil. if so does the augmented voltage between turns also occur if it does ring up in that range? Will it be able to couple better to the single wire coil? Anything there?  Who knows? MH??  He tries to crush imagination prospects. I do not agree with that attitude at all.

Otto used to tune his coils by slightly adjusting the length of the wires, like nip a bit off at a time till it is in tune.  Where an unravel a bit at a time can do it also.


Things to do, things to do.

I gota git.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: forest on April 24, 2017, 01:49:57 PM
 >:(  there are so many people there with many useful tools around and why nobody just check the magnetic field of bifilar pancake coil at resonant frequency ?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Grumage on April 24, 2017, 02:17:25 PM
Well, thanks to Dog-One.....

This might just be the device to hit them with?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiCD2LJjA-A

Cheers Grum.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 24, 2017, 03:10:29 PM
Hey brad

"Maybe have a read of a few of erfinder's post's,and you will see that MHs aint so bad."

But since the other day he has cleaned it up and i reflected that here already. As far as Im concerned he is fine as maybe he does not divulge his way of using the coils, he does intrigue optimism that I want to see more of. If there is something more to try with this then that is what needs to come next, as tk is done, and you agree with MH now that there is nothing more to see. Thats not the brad I thought I knew. The Brad that comes up with out of the box ideas on things that captures everyones attn. Where did ya go?  Miss ya.


'I have read all of this thread,as it continue's,and all i see is MH stating what is obvious."

Lets agree that i did say when I first entered here that i believe that there is something other than the resonant freq that we need to look at. The title of the thread does not make a claim. It names a thread on the subject. So I may have to open a new thread to avoid the resonance issue being at the chopper.  And when I or Er say something that tries to point out that there are other things to try, MH pounces on that as if he knows all else above all others imaginations. BS man, bs.

Now if you call it quits and are finished as you have not found there to be any advantages to the bifi at resonance, only by redoing others experiments, I have to sigh.


"There is so much hipe over the BPC,and yet,no one to date has shown that there is anything wonderful about it.
Sure,we get the !erfinder's! continual rant's,on how wonderful it is,but he hasnt been able to back up his rambling's with a single thing of substance-as is the case in every thread he is in--the nothingness of everything."

MH says there is nothing more to try. Nothing. ER says there is.  MH puts together examples using false data, where the outcome always leans even more in his favor . Er has not provided falsities that anyone can point out so far. I have found the ER will let you know if you are going in the right direction, just that you have to ask the right questions. Im ok with that. If it all turns out bunk then you can say otherwise. Mh will daily press that there are no more directions to go. Like is that warming on you here?? You removed ERs post, but mh gets to run nelson off and just puke on every new thought that arrives. Let me ask you. Just because ER does not tell you much and considering what you have seen of his vids, would you absolutely agree with MH that he does not know how a coil works??? if so, you are scaring me now. Is the world flat? Does the earth rotate around the sun?? If not, got proof?  Well back when these discoveries, earth ball, sun is the center of solar system, there were those that argued it based on the tight box surrounding them, not an open mind to new possibilities.


"So far,the only thing i see that is great about it(the BPC),is the name behind it--Tesla."

So far that is all we have tried is resonance tests and some inductive coupling tests, of which there has to be more to diversify the tests. But thats fine if you agree with mh that there is no further to go. Im not in that lot.  Ive been on and off on the bifi. Im slow. It most likely takes me more time to 'write' this stuff than most let alone... I have a deeper view of it than I ever had as in the details that make it something much different than a single wire coil or even a typical LC. Ive stated my new views and have more to state, as i get time.


"Mag's,i trust in you,and so i ask you--do you,or have you found anything interesting about the BPC yet?,that dose not exist in an ordinary coil."

I listed a couple things earlier..

Test transformer action between windings

Test with pulsed input. Not square wave where it it on and then held to 0v, pulse and let it go, spark gap, quenched or not, or some other ideas that are out there.

Test for the possibility of the internal capacitance charging before the inductor allows current to flow.  If it charges, did current flow without the impedance of the inductance? etc

Those are not ridiculous ideas. Thats just 3 things and there are more.

Im working on the idea of the possibility of 3 different voltage levels possible due to the capacitance mod of the bifi. It is in the works as to how to go about testing for that.  Yeah it is just a theory so far, but that is what we need is new things to do, not there is nothing more to see. If thats what most all this has come to then the free energy was just an imaginary fad and is fading away.

Just because nothing so far has been found does not mean that it is not there as MH presses as a certainty day in and day out.


"I know we have an even potential voltage difference between turns-unlike other coils,but what dose that do,that sets it apart from any other coil?"

I see the fact that the capacitance IS in the coil as a different thing than having a separate cap and coil of an lc..  It operates as a parallel, but would seem to be series also if we look at it electrically, the cap can only charge through the body of the coil. How does the greater charge difference between turns affect the induction, and like I said earlier, the ones that claim E field is how induction works, wouldnt one think that the field between turns of a bifi and a normal coil to possibly have a huge effect on that idea, yet it doesnt show so far?

I dont believe that the capacitance is literally increased as much as the fact that the wiring arrangement helps provide a much higher voltage level compared to a single wire coil making that capacitance capable of higher capacity because of the augmented voltage differences for each. 

There is always more to do. So maybe we make a new thread that looks beyond resonance, or we can just keep on going here.


"You know i have two identical coils(one a BPC,and the other a single wound coil),in that they have the same amount of wire,the same kind of wire,and the same physical size.
The only thing i have found different between the two,is the BPC has a lower resonant frequency-by about 26.5KHz. Other than that,they both perform the same in every way i have tested them."

I had posted a thing to try. Did TK do this already?....

Im under the impression that the bifi has a couple different capacitances and that the bifi has the augmented voltage between turns, but it also has the same capacitance between turns between end to end of the coil. So I think the bifi of the same dimensions and wire can also resonate at the same freq as the single wire coil. if so does the augmented voltage between turns also occur if it does ring up in that range? Will it be able to couple better to the single wire coil? Anything there?  Who knows? MH??  He tries to crush imagination prospects. I do not agree with that attitude at all.

Otto used to tune his coils by slightly adjusting the length of the wires, like nip a bit off at a time till it is in tune.  Where an unravel a bit at a time can do it also.


Things to do, things to do.

I gota git.

Mags

I will reply to the highlighted in your post.

I asked Er politely to refrain from using foul language,and he refused to do so.
So,the only posts i removed of Er's,was the ones that contained the profanities i asked him not to use.

If MH uses such language,then i will remove those posts as well.

My question to you.
We have many-many very smart people on this planet,who deal with, design,and implement efficient energy storage and transfer systems for a living.
If the BPC outperformed any other type of coil/inductor,in any type of application,then why do we not have them in every day devices-or even top end devices for that matter.
In fact,is there any marketed device today,that uses a BPC in it?

Second
As far as energy storage go's,i can guarantee as standard solenoid coil with a core,will store more energy,and give back more energy,for a lower energy input,than any BPC.

Why !ATM! do i agree with MH ?
Well that is very easy to answer.
First-through my own testing,i have found nothing about the BPC,that is better in any way than a normal single wound coil.

Second-there are so many here,who keep on about how great a thing the BPC is,and give those that believe that there is nothing special about it-a hard time-->,but not one(not one) person here,has been able to show anything that makes the BPC a cut above the rest-not one thing.

As you know,i have two coils that are identical in every way,except one is a BPC,and the other is a single wound coil.
To date,with all the different types of tests i have carried out with these coil's,i have not found one single test,where the BPC outperformed the single wound coil.

So that is why i agree with MH ATM,as i do have two identical coil's,and i can and have run !side by side ! tests with these coil,and the results speak for them self.

How many others here,have two such coil's,that are identical in every way,except one is a BPC,and the other a single wound coil,and have done side by side comparison tests?.

If there is some one who dose,and has found something that the BPC leads the way in,then share it here with us,so as the rest of us can have a look for our selves.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 24, 2017, 03:12:48 PM
>:(  there are so many people there with many useful tools around and why nobody just check the magnetic field of bifilar pancake coil at resonant frequency ?

I have done just that,and the BPC has no advantage over my single wound coil,of the same size,same wire,and same length of wire.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 24, 2017, 03:38:08 PM
Still not seeing it yet?

Have you checked this thread (http://overunity.com/17119/pulling-energy-from-the-ambient-energy-field-using-a-coil-capacitor/)?

Observe the pancake coil carefully.  Do you see any core?  Where do you suppose the energy
(or whatever you would like to refer to it as) is being stored?

Capacity my friend, think about what that must be.  Try substituting the word "capacity" for
"ability to __________".

Hint:  Jack fills in the blank in this post (http://overunity.com/17119/pulling-energy-from-the-ambient-energy-field-using-a-coil-capacitor/msg505358/#msg505358).

I do not think high capacitance in a coil is a good thing.
What happens when you do a cap to cap transfer of the stored energy?--yes,you loose half of that energy. So who's to say that the same is not going to happen with the energy stored by capacitance within the BPC ?
You are far better to store the energy by way of a magnetic field,where the only loss is ohmic

Quote
pulling-energy-from-the-ambient-energy-field-using-a-coil-capacitor

This is voodoo talk,and been doing the rounds as long as i can remember.
Where is there a video and evidence,showing this !ambient! energy being pulled into the system?.

You know me--im all ear's,and ready to build anything that some one want me to try out--like that over expensive,over modified,time consuming joule thief- called the parametric oscillator.

There are(i believe) two !out of the box! free energy supplies that are yet to be looked deeply into.
1-Permanent magnet's-->millions of microscopic engines running 24/7,for 100s of year's,keeping the permanent magnetic field up and running.

2-Water-->2 parts fuel,and 1 part oxidizer,where the fuel happens to be hydrogen. What happens when we split the hydrogen atom ?

Anyway,as you know,i have the two identical coils,where one is a BPC,and the other is a single wound coil.
If you have something you would like me to try,in regards the the BPC,then i am ready to go.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 24, 2017, 04:00:58 PM
Tesla states that the series bifilar pancake coil generates 250,000 times the electrical potential as the single wire coil of equal turns. He goes on to state that it's the elevated charge storage that cancels the self inductance at any input current or frequency; Hence, as evostars points out, the bifilar "Never Generates Any Flyback"!

The biflar coil generates a stronger magnetic field than the single wire coil when it's pulsed, as I've been pointing out for over eight years.

Pulsing the iron nail core through the single wire coil, first produces a "Positive" current, then when the current's interrupted, a "Negative Current" pulse follows. This cancels the "Impulse Magnetization" effect.

The series bifilar doesn't generate a negative "Cancellation Pulse".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 24, 2017, 05:22:07 PM
You only loose it if you let it get lost.

What if the transfer is not a dump?
What if you are not "storing" the energy?

What dose a capacitor do?-stores energy.
If you do not want to store energy,then why do you need a high capacitance value in the coil?


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: partzman on April 24, 2017, 05:30:23 PM
FWIW, attached is a sim of a TBP coil modeled as a cross coupled symmetrical transmission line which hopefully will answer some questions about the uniqueness of this device.  This sim was based on parameters supplied by TK and are as follows- individual winding inductances are 172uH and 176uH, the series connected inductance is 680uH, capacitance between windings is 2.8nf, and the DCR is 3.9 ohms.  When the sim and TK's TBP bench results were compared, they were within ~1.5%.

TBP_1A shows the plot sweep from ~50kHz to 1.25MHz and as can be seen there are 2 dips and 1 peak in Vout across the 1 ohm sense resistor.  There is also a trace showing the sum of the all the currents in the odd inductors L1-L23 over time representing one winding of the TBP and the other line is identical but not shown for clarity.  Also, the 10v peak input voltage Vin from the generator is divided by 100 for plot clarity.

TBP_2A shows an expanded view of the first dip in output voltage/current in Vout across/thru R1.  The frequency is ~277kHz, Vout is ~561uv rms, while the total current in the odd L's is ~140ma rms.  This shows the apparent output current to ground of the TBP to be nearly zero while there is still induction in both windings which would be detectable with a separate sense coil in proximity.

TBP_3A shows an expanded view of the 1st peak in output current at 505kHz plus the levels of output voltage and the odd L's winding current.

Regards,

PM

Edit: Added 'cross coupled'.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 24, 2017, 05:37:36 PM
Partzman

It is unfortunate that TK is one of the Builders who has left this forum

issues with member Synchro and most recently This Fellow Zephir's
TOS violations.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: partzman on April 24, 2017, 07:55:07 PM
Could you put that in newbie terms?

I think you are saying that almost no current flow and yet there is still an induction transfer?

There is current flow within the TBP that is recirculating and creating induction in the windings, but little current exits the circuit at the frequency shown in the example.  This circulating current is the result of energy transfer between the winding inductances and the distributed capacitance between windings.  The small current in the sense resistor on the output represents the losses in the TBP such as the DC resistance of the windings and other parasitics.   

The internal induction of the TBP can be sensed with an external coil and if the coil is loaded, the current in the output sense resistor to ground will increase as energy is drawn from the transmission line or TBP.

PM
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 24, 2017, 09:41:16 PM
FWIW, attached is a sim of a TBP coil modeled as a cross coupled symmetrical transmission line which hopefully will answer some questions about the uniqueness of this device.  This sim was based on parameters supplied by TK and are as follows- individual winding inductances are 172uH and 176uH, the series connected inductance is 680uH, capacitance between windings is 2.8nf, and the DCR is 3.9 ohms.  When the sim and TK's TBP bench results were compared, they were within ~1.5%.

TBP_1A shows the plot sweep from ~50kHz to 1.25MHz and as can be seen there are 2 dips and 1 peak in Vout across the 1 ohm sense resistor.  There is also a trace showing the sum of the all the currents in the odd inductors L1-L23 over time representing one winding of the TBP and the other line is identical but not shown for clarity.  Also, the 10v peak input voltage Vin from the generator is divided by 100 for plot clarity.

TBP_2A shows an expanded view of the first dip in output voltage/current in Vout across/thru R1.  The frequency is ~277kHz, Vout is ~561uv rms, while the total current in the odd L's is ~140ma rms.  This shows the apparent output current to ground of the TBP to be nearly zero while there is still induction in both windings which would be detectable with a separate sense coil in proximity.

TBP_3A shows an expanded view of the 1st peak in output current at 505kHz plus the levels of output voltage and the odd L's winding current.

Regards,

PM

Edit: Added 'cross coupled'.
Thanks  alot, for the great info!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 24, 2017, 09:55:30 PM
FWIW, attached is a sim of a TBP coil modeled as a cross coupled symmetrical transmission line which hopefully will answer some questions about the uniqueness of this device.  This sim was based on parameters supplied by TK and are as follows- individual winding inductances are 172uH and 176uH, the series connected inductance is 680uH, capacitance between windings is 2.8nf, and the DCR is 3.9 ohms.  When the sim and TK's TBP bench results were compared, they were within ~1.5%.

TBP_1A shows the plot sweep from ~50kHz to 1.25MHz and as can be seen there are 2 dips and 1 peak in Vout across the 1 ohm sense resistor.  There is also a trace showing the sum of the all the currents in the odd inductors L1-L23 over time representing one winding of the TBP and the other line is identical but not shown for clarity.  Also, the 10v peak input voltage Vin from the generator is divided by 100 for plot clarity.

TBP_2A shows an expanded view of the first dip in output voltage/current in Vout across/thru R1.  The frequency is ~277kHz, Vout is ~561uv rms, while the total current in the odd L's is ~140ma rms.  This shows the apparent output current to ground of the TBP to be nearly zero while there is still induction in both windings which would be detectable with a separate sense coil in proximity.

TBP_3A shows an expanded view of the 1st peak in output current at 505kHz plus the levels of output voltage and the odd L's winding current.

Regards,

PM

Edit: Added 'cross coupled'.

hey Parts

Would it not be possible that there is a series of cap plates that go from end to end of the coil also? As instead of referring to each turn in your schematic, lets look at 1mm of each turn in relation to the next turn and the next all the way to the other out terminal of the coil? Divide the winding into 1mm sections and look longways to the other end of the coil. We could be frigidity and say that well no matter how we look at it, there isnt even a 1 mm string directly across the length from actual entry of one end and the other, for there is at least 1 turn of the coil at either end, but thats much much closer than half way through the coil. But I think it would be interesting if we could isolate the thing with particular operation as to see if with a normal coil, yes the V divisions between turns total the input, but if bifi, and there is 50% input V between each adjacent turn, how might that add up if we were to say cut input and possibly read a spike that is input / 2 times the number of turns(minus the fidgit).

If we did see a spike that did coincide with 50%Vin x Tn as in number of turns, then we can assume the possibility of what Im thinking is the same. And if it is then I also think the bifi coil should also resonate at the same freq of a single wire coil.  Is your sweep going into the mhz on the bifi, in the range that the single wire coil rings?

If the bifi does have also an upper res freq like the single wire(possibly not exactly the same freq for the fidgit sake), now it is operating on the same capacitance as the single wire we would have to say. I would. What then of the 50% voltage developed between turns? Does that function still happen and for brief moments there is higher potential in opposition to the input??   ??? Would be a nice thing to ponder. The bifi has a greater complication as to its workings than a typical lc and even the lc components of a single wire coil which are much closer to a typical lc of its given values.

I spent some time setting up circuits like you show, and once I got to the 3rd example I guess the applet could not handle the idea of so many caps and coils and lap froze. lost it. So I decided to just write it. Will do that though, but on separate windows so it doesnt bug out.



Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: partzman on April 24, 2017, 11:30:25 PM
hey Parts

Would it not be possible that there is a series of cap plates that go from end to end of the coil also? As instead of referring to each turn in your schematic, lets look at 1mm of each turn in relation to the next turn and the next all the way to the other out terminal of the coil? Divide the winding into 1mm sections and look longways to the other end of the coil. We could be frigidity and say that well no matter how we look at it, there isnt even a 1 mm string directly across the length from actual entry of one end and the other, for there is at least 1 turn of the coil at either end, but thats much much closer than half way through the coil. But I think it would be interesting if we could isolate the thing with particular operation as to see if with a normal coil, yes the V divisions between turns total the input, but if bifi, and there is 50% input V between each adjacent turn, how might that add up if we were to say cut input and possibly read a spike that is input / 2 times the number of turns(minus the fidgit).

If we did see a spike that did coincide with 50%Vin x Tn as in number of turns, then we can assume the possibility of what Im thinking is the same. And if it is then I also think the bifi coil should also resonate at the same freq of a single wire coil.  Is your sweep going into the mhz on the bifi, in the range that the single wire coil rings?

If the bifi does have also an upper res freq like the single wire(possibly not exactly the same freq for the fidgit sake), now it is operating on the same capacitance as the single wire we would have to say. I would. What then of the 50% voltage developed between turns? Does that function still happen and for brief moments there is higher potential in opposition to the input??   ??? Would be a nice thing to ponder. The bifi has a greater complication as to its workings than a typical lc and even the lc components of a single wire coil which are much closer to a typical lc of its given values.

I spent some time setting up circuits like you show, and once I got to the 3rd example I guess the applet could not handle the idea of so many caps and coils and lap froze. lost it. So I decided to just write it. Will do that though, but on separate windows so it doesnt bug out.



Mags

Mags,

Yes, there is capacitance along each winding as well as coupling between the sections and those small values are left out of the sim for simplicity as they really don't seem to affect the outcome.  It is interesting and very educational to view plots of the voltages and currents at various locations throughout the sections to gain an understanding.  I have found that it is not always what one expects.

Although I cut off the sweep frequency at ~1.28Mhz, there is at least one more resonance peak that is not shown at a ~1.48Mhz.  I haven't gone beyond that so I'm not sure what other peaks and dips may exist but I'm sure they are there due to higher harmonics.

I'm not sure if this will address some of your other points including the single wire, but say we take one winding of the TBP and drive it with a sine generator while leaving the other end open, then use the other winding as a secondary with a load.  We are now creating induction in the secondary with the displacement current in the distributed capacitance between the windings.  Is Lenz still in effect?  What will our overall Pout/Pin look like?  Lots of room for experimentation here!  Perhaps there is a use for the TBP.  :)

PM
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 25, 2017, 12:00:52 AM
Mags,

Yes, there is capacitance along each winding as well as coupling between the sections and those small values are left out of the sim for simplicity as they really don't seem to affect the outcome.  It is interesting and very educational to view plots of the voltages and currents at various locations throughout the sections to gain an understanding.  I have found that it is not always what one expects.

Although I cut off the sweep frequency at ~1.28Mhz, there is at least one more resonance peak that is not shown at a ~1.48Mhz.  I haven't gone beyond that so I'm not sure what other peaks and dips may exist but I'm sure they are there due to higher harmonics.

I'm not sure if this will address some of your other points including the single wire, but say we take one winding of the TBP and drive it with a sine generator while leaving the other end open, then use the other winding as a secondary with a load.  We are now creating induction in the secondary with the displacement current in the distributed capacitance between the windings.  Is Lenz still in effect?  What will our overall Pout/Pin look like?  Lots of room for experimentation here!  Perhaps there is a use for the TBP.  :)

PM

ok.  Dont know if you have a duplicate of a bifi in single wire with same ga wire and no. of turns to compare the bifi upper resonance to. Id be interested in the effects possibly with inducing the single wire from the bifi if they were in res at the same freq. Im not asking you to do it, but its part of what I want to do.

And.... 

"I'm not sure if this will address some of your other points including the single wire, but say we take one winding of the TBP and drive it with a sine generator while leaving the other end open, then use the other winding as a secondary with a load.  We are now creating induction in the secondary with the displacement current in the distributed capacitance between the windings.  Is Lenz still in effect?  What will our overall Pout/Pin look like?  Lots of room for experimentation here!  Perhaps there is a use for the TBP"

That is on my list i posted day one of me posting here.  ;) Have you done this? :o ;D

Mags

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 25, 2017, 12:04:07 AM


"I'm not sure if this will address some of your other points including the single wire, but say we take one winding of the TBP and drive it with a sine generator while leaving the other end open, then use the other winding as a secondary with a load.  We are now creating induction in the secondary with the displacement current in the distributed capacitance between the windings.  Is Lenz still in effect?  What will our overall Pout/Pin look like?  Lots of room for experimentation here!  Perhaps there is a use for the TBP"

That is on my list i posted day one of me posting here.  ;) Have you done this? :o ;D

Mags

That one was given to me earlier and I dont want to take credit for the idea of figuring it out by myself. I will give credit where it is due as need be.  ;)

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 25, 2017, 01:02:51 AM
There is current flow within the TBP that is recirculating and creating induction in the windings, but little current exits the circuit at the frequency shown in the example.  This circulating current is the result of energy transfer between the winding inductances and the distributed capacitance between windings. 
that could explain the absence of the magnetic field in Nelson Rochaa's video:
https://youtu.be/XGyz31yaCdw (https://youtu.be/XGyz31yaCdw)

Very interesting. this is tickling my brain in a pleasant way.  ;D
I wonder what this frequency is, and if I can find it with real coils.

Thanks Partzman
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 25, 2017, 01:45:43 AM
Tesla states that the series bifilar pancake coil generates 250,000 times the electrical potential as the single wire coil of equal turns. He goes on to state that it's the elevated charge storage that cancels the self inductance at any input current or frequency; Hence, as evostars points out, the bifilar "Never Generates Any Flyback"!

The biflar coil generates a stronger magnetic field than the single wire coil when it's pulsed, as I've been pointing out for over eight years.

Pulsing the iron nail core through the single wire coil, first produces a "Positive" current, then when the current's interrupted, a "Negative Current" pulse follows. This cancels the "Impulse Magnetization" effect.

The series bifilar doesn't generate a negative "Cancellation Pulse".

"Tesla states that the series bifilar pancake coil generates 250,000 times the electrical potential as the single wire coil of equal turns."

Well he describes that number with a coil of 1000 turns with 100v in and .1v between adjacent turns. When we jump to say 100 turns, then there is 1v between adjacent turns which shifts that large bifi number to 25,000 times. So if it were a 10,000 turn coil, the effect is 2.5mil times. Perspective...

With a normal coil the more turns, the worse the capacitance gets. More turns, more division of input V between turns. The closest a bifi and single wire coil get is in 2 full turns. As the no. of turns increases for each, the capacity goes in opposite directions for each while the inductance and resistance remain the same for each. All if each coil is identical in wire and turns and geometry of the windings,

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: partzman on April 25, 2017, 02:59:57 AM
ok.  Dont know if you have a duplicate of a bifi in single wire with same ga wire and no. of turns to compare the bifi upper resonance to. Id be interested in the effects possibly with inducing the single wire from the bifi if they were in res at the same freq. Im not asking you to do it, but its part of what I want to do.

And.... 

"I'm not sure if this will address some of your other points including the single wire, but say we take one winding of the TBP and drive it with a sine generator while leaving the other end open, then use the other winding as a secondary with a load.  We are now creating induction in the secondary with the displacement current in the distributed capacitance between the windings.  Is Lenz still in effect?  What will our overall Pout/Pin look like?  Lots of room for experimentation here!  Perhaps there is a use for the TBP"

That is on my list i posted day one of me posting here.  ;) Have you done this? :o ;D

Mags

Mags,

Yes, not with the TBP specifically but with stacked pancake coils.  The schematic below shows the actual circuit used to produce the attached scope waveforms which are part of my MEI or Magneto Electric Induction research.  The basic device consists of pcbs with foil traces on both sides stacked with a dielectric material in between creating a special transformer with transmission line characteristics.  This transformer primary has one end open with the driven end appearing as capacitive reactive load to any generator source.  Therefore, a square wave generator drives the primary thru an inductor which resonates with the input capacitance of the primary and producing induction in the secondaries thru displacement current as previously mentioned.

The scope pix shows the various waveforms of the probes in the schematic with the resulting input power in the Math(red) channel  equaling -1.7 watts rms.  Also note the phase between the input current generating the voltage across the 1 ohm sense resistor leads the input voltage by 90.42 degrees.  The output voltage on CH3 is 8.07v rms which produces an output power thru the 51 ohm load of 1.28w rms.

The caveat to all this is that the infinite power gain is referenced to the resonant input sine wave driving the transformer with no consideration of the power consumed from the square wave generating source.

Research into this type of generator is ongoing.

PM

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: hoptoad on April 25, 2017, 04:16:54 AM
snip...
Do you see any core?  Where do you suppose the energy
(or whatever you would like to refer to it as) is being stored?
snip...
The energy is stored in both the magnetic field produced by the current through the coil and the distributed capacitance of the coil. No core required.
BTW - it was Tesla, in his own words, who referred to energy being stored.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: hoptoad on April 25, 2017, 05:02:58 AM
"Tesla states that the series bifilar pancake coil generates 250,000 times the electrical potential as the single wire coil of equal turns."
snip...
Read Tesla's patent again.

https://teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla/patents/us-patent-512340-coil-electro-magnets (https://teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla/patents/us-patent-512340-coil-electro-magnets)

He doesn't say that the electrical potential generated is 250,000 times greater in the BFC, he says the energy stored is 250,000 times greater than that stored in a SWC, (assuming a 50V potential between adjacent windings in the BFC). Big difference.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 25, 2017, 06:36:15 AM
Read Tesla's patent again.

https://teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla/patents/us-patent-512340-coil-electro-magnets (https://teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla/patents/us-patent-512340-coil-electro-magnets)

He doesn't say that the electrical potential generated is 250,000 times greater in the BFC, he says the energy stored is 250,000 times greater than that stored in a SWC, (assuming a 50V potential between adjacent windings in the BFC). Big difference.

Was a quote from syncro, I didnt notice the issue at the time. Thanks for the correction


Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 25, 2017, 06:39:03 AM
MH says there is nothing more to try. Nothing. ER says there is.  MH puts together examples using false data, where the outcome always leans even more in his favor . Er has not provided falsities that anyone can point out so far. I have found the ER will let you know if you are going in the right direction, just that you have to ask the right questions. Im ok with that. If it all turns out bunk then you can say otherwise. Mh will daily press that there are no more directions to go. Like is that warming on you here?? You removed ERs post, but mh gets to run nelson off and just puke on every new thought that arrives. Let me ask you. Just because ER does not tell you much and considering what you have seen of his vids, would you absolutely agree with MH that he does not know how a coil works??? if so, you are scaring me now. Is the world flat? Does the earth rotate around the sun?? If not, got proof?  Well back when these discoveries, earth ball, sun is the center of solar system, there were those that argued it based on the tight box surrounding them, not an open mind to new possibilities

Not here to discuss the coil, just here to defend myself.

-  I never said there is "nothing to try" or "no more directions to go" - don't put words in my mouth.

-  I did not do an example using "false data," I used exemplary data, and there is a huge difference.  What the hell does "my favour" mean?  If you put the correct data for Conrad's coil resistance into the analysis, the amount of stored energy in the self-resonance of the coil is still minuscule relative to the continuous power burn to sustain the self-resonance.  Is this fact not sinking into your head?

-  Why don't you make your own pancake coil and with the proper resistance value do the analysis yourself?  Guess what you are going to find?  You are going to find that the results are about the same:  huge continuous power burn relative to the stored energy.  Aren't you curious about this, you are on a forum discussing energy?

-  I did NOT "run Nelson off," don't give me more of your crap.  I told Nelson the truth when I was discussing various technical issues with him.  Is speaking the truth not acceptable to you?  Don't tell me the technical level on this forum is so low that you still get excited on seeing a bloody light bulb being lit after 7+ years.

-  "Puke on every new thought?"  Only in your unhealthily obsessed mind.  This has to stop.

-  Re:  Understand how a coil works?  Golly gee, you actually do have to understand how a coil works.  Some dude named "BeSharper" wants to join a garage band and play the guitar.  Do you think he can just show up and mangle his fingers on the fret board and strum with a pick without even knowing what a chord is or what a musical key is or what a 4:4 beat is?  The other dudes in the garage band will kick BeSharper's ass out the door in no time.  It's called life.  BeSharper can cry out, "But I am an undiscovered musical genius and I don't have to understand music!" until he is blue in the face or he can roll up his shirtsleeves and learn about music and how to play music (or he can do nothing and sing backup vocals for Yoko Ono instead).  Is this R E S O N A T I N G with you?

You stop bad-mouthing me and go work with your coils.  Your sick obsession about me has to stop or go see a psychiatrist.

Back to talking about pancake coils.  Hopefully most of you understand how a coil actually works on a thread discussing the inner workings of coils.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 25, 2017, 07:34:26 AM
Ok-let's cut through the BS,and carry out some side by side test's between a BPC,and a single wound coil-of the same physical size,same size wire,and same length of wire.

My first test was to take a close look at a quick pulse sent through each coil.
I have a diode on one of the input leads to each coil,so as we get a DC pulse going into the coils only.
I am running at a frequency of 20KHz,and this allows the coils to ring down to a stop before the coil is hit with the next pulse.
Duty cycle is a mere 1%--so a very quick pulse.

I read in one of the replies here,that the BPC has no inductive kickback.
Well,we just found that to be incorrect with this simple test.

Looking at the two scope shot's below,we can clearly see the inductive kickback spike,followed by a small forward spike of larger amplitude,but shorter duration-the beginning of the ringdown of each coil.
We also see(as i stated before)that the BPC has i lower resonant frequency.
But as we look at the induced voltage,and the inductive kickback,we see there is no difference between the two coils.

We can see from the scope shot's,that both coils were subject to an identical input pulse,at the same frequency,where the voltage across both coils reached 8.5v during the on time.
We can see that the inductive kickback from both coils is also exactly the same.

So,we have eliminated one myth associated with the BPC-that being that the BPC has no inductive kickback,when in fact it is identical to the single wound coil.

Next test is the electromagnetic field strength of each coil,for a given P/in.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 25, 2017, 12:38:37 PM
Ok,the second test is to see which of the two coils is better at inducing a secondary coil.
So a P/in for P/out test.

The secondary coil is the secondary from a MOT,where i am using 1 half of the windings-->coil is split into two sets of windings--from other projects.
The MOT has a 680 ohm resistor across it as a load.

First,with a set V/RMS of 1.6v across the BPC,the frequency was raised until maximum V amplitude was achieved across the 680 ohm resistor on the secondary coil(the MOT coil),by doing a sweep from 500HTz to 2MHz.
Once maximum output frequency was found,we then placed the scope across the 2.2 ohm CVR on the BPC,and the second channel to read the voltage across the coils-so as we could calculate P/in.

The very same test was done for the single wound coil.

So here are the results.

BPC

P/in=1.6v @ 216mV/RMS over the 2.2 ohm CVR
P/in= 157.088mW
Power dissipated by CVR=21.207mW

P/out=1.56VRMS over 680 ohms
P/out=3.578mW
 

Single wound coil

P/in=1.6VRMS @ 208mV across the 2.2 ohm CVR
P/in= 151.264mW
Power dissipated by CVR=19.66mW

P/out=1.68VRMS over 680 ohms
P/out= 4.150mW

So,from this test,it would seem that the single wound coil out-performs the BPC in electromagnetic induction-or energy transfer to another coil.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 25, 2017, 02:40:23 PM
Read Tesla's patent again.

https://teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla/patents/us-patent-512340-coil-electro-magnets (https://teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla/patents/us-patent-512340-coil-electro-magnets)

He doesn't say that the electrical potential generated is 250,000 times greater in the BFC, he says the energy stored is 250,000 times greater than that stored in a SWC, (assuming a 50V potential between adjacent windings in the BFC). Big difference.

@hoptoad,

"The SI unit of electric potential is the volt".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: forest on April 25, 2017, 03:16:55 PM
how to convert this 2500 times energy stored into magnetic field  ?
that's what was removed from the patent
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 25, 2017, 07:06:03 PM
Ok-let's cut through the BS,and carry out some side by side test's between a BPC,and a single wound coil-of the same physical size,same size wire,and same length of wire.

My first test was to take a close look at a quick pulse sent through each coil.
I have a diode on one of the input leads to each coil,so as we get a DC pulse going into the coils only.
I am running at a frequency of 20KHz,and this allows the coils to ring down to a stop before the coil is hit with the next pulse.
Duty cycle is a mere 1%--so a very quick pulse.

I read in one of the replies here,that the BPC has no inductive kickback.
Well,we just found that to be incorrect with this simple test.

Looking at the two scope shot's below,we can clearly see the inductive kickback spike,followed by a small forward spike of larger amplitude,but shorter duration-the beginning of the ringdown of each coil.
We also see(as i stated before)that the BPC has i lower resonant frequency.
But as we look at the induced voltage,and the inductive kickback,we see there is no difference between the two coils.

We can see from the scope shot's,that both coils were subject to an identical input pulse,at the same frequency,where the voltage across both coils reached 8.5v during the on time.
We can see that the inductive kickback from both coils is also exactly the same.

So,we have eliminated one myth associated with the BPC-that being that the BPC has no inductive kickback,when in fact it is identical to the single wound coil.

Next test is the electromagnetic field strength of each coil,for a given P/in.


Brad

Hey brad

In your scope shots, it looks as if something is altering the ring of the oscillation when the trace gets near the neg peaks. If what you say and show is just that first pos 1% duty input(circled in blue), and after that it lets go, that first neg part of the cycle should be more than the peak of the pos portion of the cycle after that???

Its like there is a 13v zener diode pulling the bottom part of the trace (circled in red)to a lower neg peak than the pos peaks. Never have I experienced what you show there. I cannot see how your first neg peak is 13.6v and then it swings back up to 20v, and even 25v respectively.

Something is clamping down on your neg side of the wave.   Would be nice to see the setup you did that test with.

I cannot say your testing there is correct.  Dont you see it?

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Cadman on April 25, 2017, 07:10:47 PM
I realize this thread is about a bifilar pancake coil, but did you know that nowhere in the Tesla patent 512340 Coil for Electromagnets is a flat or pancake coil mentioned?

Before the drawings are pointed to for evidence, the first drawing depicts a coil wound in the ordinary manner.

Just thought I would mention it.

Regards
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 25, 2017, 07:56:08 PM
I realize this thread is about a bifilar pancake coil, but did you know that nowhere in the Tesla patent 512340 Coil for Electromagnets is a flat or pancake coil mentioned?

Before the drawings are pointed to for evidence, the first drawing depicts a coil wound in the ordinary manner.

Just thought I would mention it.

Regards


And Tesla says that the idea can be used in any coil design well known to exist. (is similar words) I had mentioned this earlier that the flat coils were most likely used in the diagrams for easier understanding of what he is describing. If it were a cylinder coil with multi layers, it would be harder to see what he means in the description. He also could have shown like the 3d bifi coil we see going around, which works for understanding value, but i think he had his reasons for displaying it as a flat coil for that purpose.

So I agree with you. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 25, 2017, 08:13:31 PM
Ok,the second test is to see which of the two coils is better at inducing a secondary coil.
So a P/in for P/out test.

The secondary coil is the secondary from a MOT,where i am using 1 half of the windings-->coil is split into two sets of windings--from other projects.
The MOT has a 680 ohm resistor across it as a load.

First,with a set V/RMS of 1.6v across the BPC,the frequency was raised until maximum V amplitude was achieved across the 680 ohm resistor on the secondary coil(the MOT coil),by doing a sweep from 500HTz to 2MHz.
Once maximum output frequency was found,we then placed the scope across the 2.2 ohm CVR on the BPC,and the second channel to read the voltage across the coils-so as we could calculate P/in.

The very same test was done for the single wound coil.

So here are the results.

BPC

P/in=1.6v @ 216mV/RMS over the 2.2 ohm CVR
P/in= 157.088mW
Power dissipated by CVR=21.207mW

P/out=1.56VRMS over 680 ohms
P/out=3.578mW
 

Single wound coil

P/in=1.6VRMS @ 208mV across the 2.2 ohm CVR
P/in= 151.264mW
Power dissipated by CVR=19.66mW

P/out=1.68VRMS over 680 ohms
P/out= 4.150mW

So,from this test,it would seem that the single wound coil out-performs the BPC in electromagnetic induction-or energy transfer to another coil.


Brad

Well thats interesting. Your single wire coil seems to outperform inducting the square coil.  For sake of argument, those screw terminals in the middle of the coils look to be different sizes and could be acting as cores in what is suppose to be an air core test. Just thinking. The one in the single is larger.

Did you record the freq for each result? Or were both coils results happening at the same freq?

This would be a first for me that a supposed identical single wire coil actually outperforms a bifi of the same. If the resistance and inductance are the same, where do you suspect the loss to be credited to?

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 25, 2017, 11:34:36 PM
Here is a scope shot of me just hiting a micro switch that puts .02v across the coil then I open it. The scale is 20v so you wouldnt even see the input in the shot. Will set it up with a 1ohm to show input. But the first swing to the neg after releasing the switch, IS the largest swing of the oscillation. 

Will do more. Been real busy with work I have.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 25, 2017, 11:48:34 PM
Seeing the 25mhz shown on the scope, knowing the coil calculated to about 180khz, I shifted the trace to the left and it is now consistently in the 230khz range. So the scope has more data to accurately represent the freq of the wave.

There is no spike like a single wire coil would show as we have seen them. Once the switch is open, the load is the scope. Not fg to pull down the coils oscillation once the input is disconnected, as I described earlier for this test. The scope probe may be altering the freq, but there is no ghz or even mhz quick spike like a normal coil typically shows.

Mags

Edit   The 180khz was actually calculated 85khz.  Not sure why the calculated and actual scope measurement is off by that much....But just wanted to correct that,,
http://overunity.com/17186/the-bifilar-pancake-coil-at-its-resonant-frequency/msg504458/#msg504458
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 25, 2017, 11:52:59 PM
Seeing the 25mhz shown on the scope, knowing the coil calculated to about 180khz, I shifted the trace to the left and it is now consistently in the 230khz range. So the scope has more data to accurately represent the freq of the wave.

There is no spike like a single wire coil would show as we have seen them. Once the switch is open, the load is the scope. Not fg to pull down the coils oscillation once the input is disconnected, as I described earlier for this test. The scope probe may be altering the freq, but there is no ghz or even mhz quick spike like a normal coil typically shows.

Mags

I had found it strange that in brads scope shots the res freq of the single wire only seems about twice the freq of the bifi, and both shots on the same time scale. Maybe he can show us that in a vid to show whats going on better.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 26, 2017, 12:58:07 AM
Typically we see field collapse spikes and they are pretty much prevalent.  So I changed up the voltage scale from 20v to 5v and lengthened the time scale to possibly see what is going on around the oscillations I had shown above. I also added the blue trace at 5v scale, but shifted the trace above the yel trace of the coil so both can be seen easier.

Gnd of both scope probes and neg of power supply(set for 4.2v) and one leg of the coil are all connected together. The blue trace is monitoring the power side of the micro switch, and the switch on sends current through the coil.

The first shot is switch off

The second shot is when switch is turned off from being on. I cannot switch the switch fast enough to capture on and off of the switch in one shot. So the coil is taking on full current before the switch is turned off...

We see that when the switch goes off, the yell trace goes low for a bit before the oscillation occurs.  ???   What is that? Is that our spike dissipating current across the switch gap before the oscillation portion of the trace appears? Switch is open and only the scope across the coils leads.

More later...

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 26, 2017, 10:45:33 AM
Hey brad

In your scope shots, it looks as if something is altering the ring of the oscillation when the trace gets near the neg peaks. If what you say and show is just that first pos 1% duty input(circled in blue), and after that it lets go, that first neg part of the cycle should be more than the peak of the pos portion of the cycle after that???

Its like there is a 13v zener diode pulling the bottom part of the trace (circled in red)to a lower neg peak than the pos peaks. Never have I experienced what you show there. I cannot see how your first neg peak is 13.6v and then it swings back up to 20v, and even 25v respectively.

Something is clamping down on your neg side of the wave.   Would be nice to see the setup you did that test with.

I cannot say your testing there is correct.  Dont you see it?

Mags

Easy to explain Mag's
As explained in post 1266--Quote: I have a diode on one of the input leads to each coil,so as we get a DC pulse going into the coils only.

The diode is clamping the bottom half of the wave  ;)


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 26, 2017, 11:01:43 AM
 author=Magluvin link=topic=17186.msg505484#msg505484 date=1493144011]
 

Quote
Well thats interesting. Your single wire coil seems to outperform inducting the square coil.  For sake of argument, those screw terminals in the middle of the coils look to be different sizes and could be acting as cores in what is suppose to be an air core test. Just thinking. The one in the single is larger.

The chocky blocks are marine grade-all stainless steel.
I used them for the very reasons you mentioned.

Quote
Did you record the freq for each result? Or were both coils results happening at the same freq?

52.8KHz for both coil's
This is the frequency maximum amplitude was reached across the 680 ohm resistor on the pickup coil,for both pancake coils.

Quote
This would be a first for me that a supposed identical single wire coil actually outperforms a bifi of the same. If the resistance and inductance are the same, where do you suspect the loss to be credited to?

I suspect the loss is because of the very thing most here seem to think is a wonderful thing--that being the larger value of voltage between turns in the BPC.
Think about it. Both coils have the same surface to surface area,so we could expect that the overall capacitance of the coils to be the same value.
Difference is,with the single wound coil we are trying to charge each set of plates(parallel windings) to a small value of say 1.2 volt's,and with the BPC,we are trying to charge each set of plates to say 50 volts.
So,instead of most of the input energy going into the primary coil being used to induce the secondary coil,some of that available energy is going into charging the self capacitance of the coil,and with the BPC,that charge is a lot higher than that of the single wound coil.

TK done a video a couple of days ago,that also showed that the single wound pancake coil had a slightly stronger magnetic field.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 26, 2017, 11:08:40 AM
Typically we see field collapse spikes and they are pretty much prevalent.  So I changed up the voltage scale from 20v to 5v and lengthened the time scale to possibly see what is going on around the oscillations I had shown above. I also added the blue trace at 5v scale, but shifted the trace above the yel trace of the coil so both can be seen easier.

Gnd of both scope probes and neg of power supply(set for 4.2v) and one leg of the coil are all connected together. The blue trace is monitoring the power side of the micro switch, and the switch on sends current through the coil.

The first shot is switch off

The second shot is when switch is turned off from being on. I cannot switch the switch fast enough to capture on and off of the switch in one shot. So the coil is taking on full current before the switch is turned off...

We see that when the switch goes off, the yell trace goes low for a bit before the oscillation occurs.  ???   What is that? Is that our spike dissipating current across the switch gap before the oscillation portion of the trace appears? Switch is open and only the scope across the coils leads.

More later...

Mags

That is the coils self capacitance being discharged.
And it is also the same as what i get for the first negative pulse.




Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 26, 2017, 12:07:11 PM
 author=Magluvin link=topic=17186.msg505364#msg505364 date=1493033673]

Quote
Hey brad

 Thats not the brad I thought I knew. The Brad that comes up with out of the box ideas on things that captures everyones attn. Where did ya go?  Miss ya.

Took me a while to find this post lol,but i knew it was there some where.

Ok Mag;s
I didnt let you down--i kept on hunting-->and i found it.

Be prepared to be blown away--even MH will have to rethink how inductors/coils work--well in the case of the BPC anyway.
Were about to gain a new understanding about the BPC,that i have not seen in any other coil.

But first
I give all the Tesla BPC guru's a chance to put forth any differences they have found with the BPC,to that of any other coil.

The way this is going to happen.
First step-i will shoot a video.
I will then show TK the video,and ask him to confirm my findings.

Once that is done,i will post the video here,and show you what i have found.
I also believe i have an answer as to why this is happening--but we'll leave that till later.

Until then.


Brad





Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: hoptoad on April 26, 2017, 12:54:40 PM
snip...
Be prepared to be blown away--even MH will have to rethink how inductors/coils work--well in the case of the BPC anyway.
Were about to gain a new understanding about the BPC,that i have not seen in any other coil.
snip..
This toad is curious. Hope you found a worm, better still, a can of worms. I love worms.  :) 
Cheers
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 26, 2017, 03:50:26 PM
Easy to explain Mag's
As explained in post 1266--Quote: I have a diode on one of the input leads to each coil,so as we get a DC pulse going into the coils only.

The diode is clamping the bottom half of the wave  ;)


Brad

Ok.  Well then the collapse neg swing should not be 13.6 for each as you claimed they were the same for each coil. Just clarifying that, as one coil was higher in up swing than the other, it did not make sense that the first bottom swings were identical and limited. So the diodes removed should change those readings, even the up swings for each of 20v and 25v as the initial down swings were burning up the in the diodes before the up swings.

So the inductive kickback is not the same for each coil as you stated and should be corrected as the diode was limiting it to be the same for each. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 26, 2017, 05:24:24 PM
That is the coils self capacitance being discharged.
And it is also the same as what i get for the first negative pulse.




Brad

I suppose.  I wonder what limited the down stroke to -15v and release at about -8v into an oscillation that goes beyond the scopes top an bottom borders, of which only displays the 54v pp of whats on the screen.  Maybe the power supply through the gap of the switch? Cuz thats all there is, sbifi coil, power supply, switch and scope. Wouldnt be the scope as it lets the oscillation breach that 15v as we see in the oscillation portion..

I used a micro switch as they have a nice tendency to switch very quickly.  When I was thinking on that before the tests, was thinking of using a spring loaded lever that would quickly hammer a set of switch contacts(modded for such) open and away from each other as fast as possible. So I could try that and see if there is any difference, or try and make a rotary switch. 

Seems the reason for the quenched spark gaps were for this very reason, to apply input and provide a complete disconnect from the input as to not disturb the outcome.

Mags

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 26, 2017, 05:42:24 PM
And oddly enough, the blue trace is of the input where you can see it was being held down by the load before the switch opens, and once open, noisily keeps being held down and gradually gets back up to no load level once the oscillation sets in. Needs to be looked at more as to what exactly is going on, and would the oscillation portion be losing out because of that initial dump loss.  Also i will compare using batteries to see if the power supply is clamping the initial neg swing. The blue trace doesnt really indicate that, but maybe through the resistance of the spark gap of the switch, this is what we see.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 26, 2017, 06:09:25 PM
Looking at the shot closer, just an observation, I see a pos spike in the power supply blue trace just before the oscillation is allowed to set in. And there is a neg spike in the yel coil trace also.  Not at shop till later, but I want to look at that closer with the scope. Possibly when the switch spark gap cuts out this is what we see. Will do more shots of that.  The scope is set up for auto single shot and the switch method shows repeatable shots.  These were at 4.2v in and the first ones were .02v in. I want to see if there is a difference in this initial down stroke before oscillation there also. Maybe it helps to run really low voltage in to 'help' avoid spark across the switch. Have to look at that.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: sm0ky2 on April 26, 2017, 06:56:31 PM
im sure this has been covered somewhere, but I have not the time atm to read 86 pages..

just in-case::

Tesla wrote about the direction of which these coils are to be used. intended to be used from the outside-> towards the center.
atomically negative, electrically positive. (not the - to + flow many tend to follow around a circuit?).
If used in the other direction, induction translates outwards which decays the energy out into the atmosphere, instead of
into the next inner trace of the coil.
When used properly, the collapsing field of each outer trace assists in inducing current in the next inner trace, at ~ the
same time the electricity is traveling through that portion of the coil.
these things happen at close to the speed of light, and are not visible on our scopes.
the scopes that can see this cost tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars!!! wish I could get one of my own....
I have heard of them being grabbed up at Army surplus stores (old naval o-scopes 50+Ghz)
but I haven't not been so lucky to find one.

one also has to be careful when choosing copper wire of different diameter. something not always disclosed is the alloy.
it is best to ensure you are using 100% (or 99.999+) copper, not an alloy as these change depending on diameter and
strength / intended use.
you can usually see the difference in color, which denotes a different alloy of each of your two wires. This means the two
coils will not have the same electrical properties. Caution should be used when making assumptions based solely on visual
examination of your coil, as discoloration can be due to oxidation, not a difference in alloy. So if there is a difference in color,
there are other methods of testing to determine what type of wire you have, one is the thermal coefficient of expansion.
this can be calculated, then tested experimentally with each wire by heating them under controlled conditions.
other methods are more complex, but its' easier to just get 100% copper.

at frequencies less than or greater than a resonant node, induction of the BC's will be, in general, greater than that of an
identical SC, drawing more current from the source. As a resonant node is approached, induction will decrease, allowing for
a higher voltage and lower current. Up to a point, where ~R(o) = 0. [voltage dependent impedance of air, ~1-2MV]
This is similar to the function of a 'spark gap', but for the entire volume of the electric field.
Which, at great voltages can encompass the entirety of the building or space occupied by the coil.
At this point, current reaches a maximum 180-degrees out of phase with the voltage max.
resulting in a maximum B-field (greater than that of the identical SC) 90-degrees to the electric.

When you start the coil up, it uses more power than the SC and produces a smaller field, but at operating freq. it uses less.
to produce a greater field. If operated long enough, it becomes more efficient than the SC.
If operated in pulses or switched on/off in rapid succession, the SC will generally perform better.
BC's are intended to be used at a consistent freq. very close to (but not exactly at) a resonant freq. or node.
This corresponds to a max. V amplitude, as observed on your scope.
More accurately, you should find TWO max. amplitudes, one slightly less than and one slightly greater than a node freq.
The higher the freq., the shorter distance between the max. amplitudes and the actual resonant freq. node.
The actual measured amplitude of the two maximums may vary in your particular set-up, for a couple of reasons.
If one is slighter greater than the other, you should expect to find an unwanted impedance on the other half of the circuit.
this can be balanced out by adding an impedance to the side with the greater amplitude. (or finding the problem and removing it)
to clarify this statement, the lower freq. side of the node indicates a lower impedance on the preceding half of the coil.
[time-based perspective].
If the amplitude of the maximum is greater on the high freq. side of the node, this indicates that the half of the coil which
is induced at a later [time] has a lower impedance. [Flux/Collapse].
It is important that both halves of the circuit maintain an equivalent impedance, as all other scenarios result in a lowering of
efficiency.
For the coil to behave in its' natural state, electricity must be able to flow consistently both IN and OUT of the coil.
Imbalances in impedance effect not only the location of the nodes on the frequency spectrum, but also the amplitudes of
the maximums preceding and following them.

and umm,,,, circular vs square? what??

no!

Fibonacci spiral. (duh!)



 

 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 26, 2017, 09:05:49 PM
author=Magluvin link=topic=17186.msg505364#msg505364 date=1493033673]

Took me a while to find this post lol,but i knew it was there some where.

Ok Mag;s
I didnt let you down--i kept on hunting-->and i found it.

Be prepared to be blown away--even MH will have to rethink how inductors/coils work--well in the case of the BPC anyway.
Were about to gain a new understanding about the BPC,that i have not seen in any other coil.

But first
I give all the Tesla BPC guru's a chance to put forth any differences they have found with the BPC,to that of any other coil.

The way this is going to happen.
First step-i will shoot a video.
I will then show TK the video,and ask him to confirm my findings.

Once that is done,i will post the video here,and show you what i have found.
I also believe i have an answer as to why this is happening--but we'll leave that till later.

Until then.


Brad

Such a tease. :-*    Well as said by Brad Pitt,,  Whats in the boooox?

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 26, 2017, 10:16:04 PM
Such a tease. :-*    Well as said by Brad Pitt,,  Whats in the boooox?

Mags

The effect has been confirmed by TK.

I will post the test setup,and video showing the effect tonight after work.

Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 27, 2017, 12:51:42 AM
 :o Cliffhanger!
 ;D
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Dog-One on April 27, 2017, 02:14:34 AM
:o Cliffhanger!
 ;D

So is this confirmation of what you said evostars--at a particular frequency the magnetic field becomes stationary?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 27, 2017, 03:22:51 AM
I would imagine it will be 6 or 7 hours yet until the Tinman has access again.
to upload the vid.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 27, 2017, 03:27:13 AM
The answer to Dog-One's question is "No".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 27, 2017, 09:17:25 AM
So is this confirmation of what you said evostars--at a particular frequency the magnetic field becomes stationary?
no,  waiting for tinmans video :D

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 27, 2017, 12:02:50 PM
Ok,here is the video,and the test setup--easy for all to try.

This finding open's a can of worm's,and in the video's to come,i will show you why.

Is the value of current flowing through the center of the winding,the same as the value of current flowing into the coil ?
In this case,the answer is no,when we reach a certain frequency-and above.
It dose not have to be the resonant frequency to see this effect.

Even though we have a series circuit(resistor/coil/resistor/coil),where the two coils and two resistors are the same,R2 shows at least twice the current flowing through it,than that of R1.
TK has achieved a much higher differential between the two resistors-maybe he will post his results here. 

More to come--lets screw with ohms law  ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaZhCyKIAvg


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: hoptoad on April 27, 2017, 12:14:50 PM
snip...
This finding open's a can of worm's,and in the video's to come,i will show you why.
snip...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaZhCyKIAvg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaZhCyKIAvg)
Brad
Nice can of worms!!!  ;D  Thanks for sharing that observation.

P.S. Have you tried pulsed DC (square wave) to see if the effect is the same or similar as AC ?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: web000x on April 27, 2017, 01:30:45 PM
Ok,here is the video,and the test setup--easy for all to try.

This finding open's a can of worm's,and in the video's to come,i will show you why.

Is the value of current flowing through the center of the winding,the same as the value of current flowing into the coil ?
In this case,the answer is no,when we reach a certain frequency-and above.
It dose not have to be the resonant frequency to see this effect.

Even though we have a series circuit(resistor/coil/resistor/coil),where the two coils and two resistors are the same,R2 shows at least twice the current flowing through it,than that of R1.
TK has achieved a much higher differential between the two resistors-maybe he will post his results here. 

More to come--lets screw with ohms law  ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaZhCyKIAvg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaZhCyKIAvg)


Brad



I don't have a BPC to play with, but this sure does look like a parallel LC phenomena where the coil has the distributed LC constants..


Dave
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 27, 2017, 02:36:04 PM
OK,so now the!wait for it!--overunity effect.

Dose ohms law fail in this situation?.

Below a pic of the result's, shown in the linked video below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnndKlAsq4E

Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 27, 2017, 02:37:58 PM
Nice can of worms!!!  ;D  Thanks for sharing that observation.

P.S. Have you tried pulsed DC (square wave) to see if the effect is the same or similar as AC ?

Have not tried a pulsed DC yet Hoptoad
But will do for sure--cant let Mag's down--must look at what dose not get looked at.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: padova on April 27, 2017, 03:06:54 PM
Tinman add resistor R3 at the end of the coil, that is L2, see what current is there, is it the same as across R2?

regards
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 27, 2017, 03:24:09 PM
The effect has been confirmed by TK.

I will post the test setup,and video showing the effect tonight after work.

Brad

@Tinman,

The gain is stored in the magnetic field and is measured in "Negative Henries". This measurement has an electrical power equivalency!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Dog-One on April 27, 2017, 08:12:14 PM
Good test Brad.  Another eye opener.

You remember the demonstration video the old MIT physics professor did in regards
to non-conservative fields?  Do you suppose this BPC is invalidating Kirchhoff's Law the
same way?

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 27, 2017, 11:32:08 PM
Thanks for showing and doing ;) Brad. Dont take it badly but I have some questions...

I understand that the ohms of the coils are very low and you cant get an accurate reading in them.

There may be some issue with how you are going about isolating said currents in the coils by way of the 100 ohm resistors.  Also, having a 100ohm resistor in between the middle connections may affect how the coils interact with each other , and probably and especially at the freq you are doing the tests.


1   How are we sure that the resistor current to that far left resistor is the actual current in the 1st coil next to it as a whole?  Like if the resistor in the middle of the circuit shows a different voltage across it than the far left resistor, I would expect some phase shift between coils is causing this, whether it be the inductance of the coils, self inductance as a whole, and or the capacitance, of which is probably altered severely with the 100ohm resistor in between the windings.

2   How is it that we can say that the currents of the middle resistor are a representation of the coil to the far right only? If there is phase shifting, that could foul up your calculations because we didnt actually look at the coils and how they are acting in the circuit in reference to each other. That would require 2 probes.

Maybe you can do a low ohm resistance in series with each coil just to do a voltage division with the coil and dc input to accurately calculate the resistance of each coil. Then you can eliminate the resistor, at the least the middle one, and put the probes across each coil. Both gnds of the probes in the middle of the coil and each probe at the opposite ends of the whole coil and invert one of the traces to compensate. Then you will be able to surely calculate the power dissipated in each coil because you would have the resistance value in check for each coil.

Im really glad you came up with what you have. Its different and new.  Maybe Im wrong to suggest what I have, and if so, please explain.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 27, 2017, 11:33:21 PM
Negative value:

Inductance in Henries is a measure of emptiness. How much volume is in a container? One gallon of volume would be a positive value of nothing, right?

Now, let's say we fill the gallon bottle half way; We can view the liquid as negative emptiness. Do you follow me so far?

We need to view the contents as inverse holding space to understand the meaning of the negative value.

It doesn't matter if it's A.C. or D.C.; The reluctance is the ratio of the "Magnetic Flux" in the circuit and the "Magnetomotive Force" or MMF.

We can see the "Negative Henry" value here in this equation:

L = 2*l*(log(4*l/d)-3/4)  (nH/m) (1)where, L = inductance of lead wire (nH/m) d = diameter of lead wire (cm)l = length of lead wire (cm)

"The Mystery of Inductance of Lead Wire We sometimes see "inductance of lead wire" in Electrical Engineering technical books. For example, the expression above is found in a book titled "Analytical Noise Mechanism" by CQ Publishing Co. at its 120th page".

Here's the Ampere to Gauss equivalency:

The SI base unit for electric current (http://www.convertunits.com/type/electric+current) is the ampere. 1 ampere is equal to 1 coulomb/second, or 2997924536.84 electrons per gauss.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 28, 2017, 01:00:54 AM
@Tinman,


You're not the first tester to measure gain in Tesla's serial bifilar pancake coil. Cancellation of inductance is one feature,
storing spontaneously generated power in a magnetic field is another.


Try measuring the coils for inductance and see if you read a minus sign in front of the Henry? This negative inductance value will factor out to the same power gain in amperage.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 28, 2017, 09:49:35 AM
Thanks for showing and doing ;) Brad. Dont take it badly but I have some questions...

I understand that the ohms of the coils are very low and you cant get an accurate reading in them.

There may be some issue with how you are going about isolating said currents in the coils by way of the 100 ohm resistors.  Also, having a 100ohm resistor in between the middle connections may affect how the coils interact with each other , and probably and especially at the freq you are doing the tests.


1   How are we sure that the resistor current to that far left resistor is the actual current in the 1st coil next to it as a whole?  Like if the resistor in the middle of the circuit shows a different voltage across it than the far left resistor, I would expect some phase shift between coils is causing this, whether it be the inductance of the coils, self inductance as a whole, and or the capacitance, of which is probably altered severely with the 100ohm resistor in between the windings.

2   How is it that we can say that the currents of the middle resistor are a representation of the coil to the far right only? If there is phase shifting, that could foul up your calculations because we didnt actually look at the coils and how they are acting in the circuit in reference to each other. That would require 2 probes.

Maybe you can do a low ohm resistance in series with each coil just to do a voltage division with the coil and dc input to accurately calculate the resistance of each coil. Then you can eliminate the resistor, at the least the middle one, and put the probes across each coil. Both gnds of the probes in the middle of the coil and each probe at the opposite ends of the whole coil and invert one of the traces to compensate. Then you will be able to surely calculate the power dissipated in each coil because you would have the resistance value in check for each coil.

Im really glad you came up with what you have. Its different and new.  Maybe Im wrong to suggest what I have, and if so, please explain.

Mags

Mag's
Several proofs here.

1st-both TK ,and now Itsu,have confirmed a higher current value through R2 than R1.
2nd-power factor has no effect of the measured current through a resistor. Power dissipated by a resistor,and current flowing through a resistor,is measured by way of the voltage drop across that resistor-regardless of what the power factor is.
3rd-we confirmed the higher voltage value across R2,by way of lighting the LED,which would not light across L1.

So,this current through R2,is going into both coils,as we are using an AC current.
The value of this current is decreasing through each coil,the closer we get to the other end of each coil<--this is my best guess ATM,and will be looking for that tonight.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: hoptoad on April 28, 2017, 10:03:57 AM
snip...
So,this current through R2,is going into both coils,as we are using an AC current.
The value of this current is decreasing through each coil,the closer we get to the other end of each coil<--this is my best guess ATM,and will be looking for that tonight.
Brad
Perhaps TK's recent video showing transmission line effects may also apply here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4T5KKQjz0s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4T5KKQjz0s)
A focused standing wave produced ? ? ?
Cheers
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 28, 2017, 10:54:15 AM
Perhaps TK's recent video showing transmission line effects may also apply here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4T5KKQjz0s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4T5KKQjz0s)
A focused standing wave produced ? ? ?
Cheers

Maybe
Or maybe we have added displacement current to that of the input current  :P

Check out the below pics of scope positions,and associated scope shot's
Look at the phase relationship in all 3 scope shots,for power factor correction.

Do the math  ;)


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Dog-One on April 29, 2017, 02:42:15 PM
Russ Gries did this test as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HDwOwfIHns
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: web000x on April 29, 2017, 04:10:33 PM
Russ Gries did this test as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HDwOwfIHns (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HDwOwfIHns)


I'm convinced that this is just a simple parallel LC network as seen by the source.  Look at that video where the input current dips to its minimum when it is 90 degrees out of phase with the current in the center of the coil.  This would suggest that XC and XL are equal and that a resonance condition has been met.  Then as the frequency is increase, the phase shift of the current in R1 vs R2 is greater than 90 degrees, also another sign of parallel resonance.  See image for simplified visual.


Dave
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: web000x on April 29, 2017, 07:47:04 PM
Expanding on the hopothesis that this is a parallel LC phenomena, it would seem that connecting the bifilar coil in series conjunction would create a high impedance to the source at resonance as indicated by some of the experiments done here by forum members.  Here is that Tesla quote again..


Quote
I have found that in every coil there exists a certain relation between its self-induction and capacity that permits a current of given frequency and potential to pass through it with no other opposition than that of ohmic resistance, or, in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction. This is due to the mutual relations existing between the special character of the current and the self-induction and capacity of the coil, the latter quantity being just capable of neutralizing the self-induction for that frequency. It is well-known that the higher the frequency or potential difference of the current the smaller the capacity required to counteract the self-induction; hence, in any coil, however small the capacity, it may be sufficient for the purpose stated if the proper conditions in other respects be secured. In the ordinary coils the difference of potential between adjacent turns or spires is very small, so that while they are in a sense condensers, they possess but very small capacity and the relations between the two quantities, self-induction and capacity, are not such as under any ordinary conditions satisfy the requirements herein contemplated, because the capacity relatively to the self-induction is very small.



Tesla said a current of a certain potential and frequency to "pass through it", not circulate around it.  It sure sounds to me like he is not talking about a parallel resonance circuit....    I wonder if this is why Erfinder is telling us to utilize the bifilar coils with one winding galvanically isolated from the power winding.  Things to think about..

Dave
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Dog-One on April 29, 2017, 09:29:35 PM
Quote from: Erfinder
Who didn't see this coming.......


There is no coming back from this.....

You have a point, but I'll try anyway.



Attached is somewhat of a refresher.

Pay attention to the term "antiresonance" in regards to resistors placed in certain
locations.  If they can have that effect, then imagine what one might do with
resistors you can switch-in or switch-out at certain points within the cycle.

Once you have mastered that, then replace the switchable resistors with
actual passive LCRs that do the switching automatically.

Off to the races we go...
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Dog-One on April 29, 2017, 10:31:00 PM
Dissipation is waste......we cannot sugar coat that...

True, true.

"antiresonance" is just a fancy twist on a concept most are still having nightmares about and are trying desperately to get away from..... Do not oppose, opposition to change "is" the underlying fundamental mechanism....  transform opposition via the proper impedance into augmentation......or not...

That's kind of what I was getting at in the name of parametric oscillation.  At all points within
the cycle of an LC, push away the opposition by whatever means you have at your disposal.
LC within an LC would be the most preferred way, but active components could be used as
a stepping stone until the concept is better understood.  Augmentation is a good word here.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: luc2010 on April 30, 2017, 01:50:25 AM
Hello!!

I need your help?? have a Sirius problem? Please

i can charge a capacitor 330 MICRO Farad to 188 volt for free!! using 220 vac and 50 hz only!!

is that the main lesson from tesla ozone patent?

Thanks and Regards
luc2010
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: luc2010 on April 30, 2017, 02:22:59 AM
according to K meyel
faraday unipolar induction law applies on that case,  E = v*b
the pointer of E and V must not point in the same direction, as in the case of ''normal'' coils.
...

the secret is that the secondery winding and the capacitor are to be seen as one unit, one system!!

Now to study tesla 177 pat and 178
in 178 pat, R refer to what?

thanks and regards
luc2010
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 30, 2017, 04:00:54 AM

Who didn't see this coming.......


There is no coming back from this.....

Yes
Unfortunately Russ got it wrong,as he was measuring a voltage drop across two resistor's,in which case power factor and phase relationship plays no part in calculating power dissipated by the two resistors.
Ohms law holds,and both the current through,and power dissipated by the resistors,is calculated using ohms law.

Phase relationship and power factor only come into play,when the inductors are included.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: padova on April 30, 2017, 04:03:42 AM
Russ Gries did this test as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HDwOwfIHns

I wasn't get it right away. Somehow I assumed it was a positive signal from the FG, but obviously it was AC current,
so it was apparent power . Sometimes it is easy to fall into some traps. :)

Thanks to tinman  for experiment, it points to some directions.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 30, 2017, 04:09:58 AM
Hello!!

I need your help?? have a Sirius problem? Please

i can charge a capacitor 330 MICRO Farad to 188 volt for free!! using 220 vac and 50 hz only!!

is that the main lesson from tesla ozone patent?

Thanks and Regards
luc2010

That's a "sirius" problem all right, because your 220 VAC is the RMS value, and you should be able to charge your capacitor to very near the Peak value of the AC supply which would be about 310 V.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 30, 2017, 04:22:27 AM
Yes
Unfortunately Russ got it wrong,as he was measuring a voltage drop across two resistor's,in which case power factor and phase relationship plays no part in calculating power dissipated by the two resistors.
Ohms law holds,and both the current through,and power dissipated by the resistors,is calculated using ohms law.

Phase relationship and power factor only come into play,when the inductors are included.


Brad

Yep. I cringe when I see some people misusing all that great test equipment and making the wrong interpretations of data due to their incorrect assumptions. Within purely dissipative elements like "ideal" resistors, you don't even need to consider phase between voltage and current at all, the power dissipated can be simply calculated by P=I2R or equivalently P=V2/R just using the RMS values of voltage drop OR current.
 
However for exactness one should include some small inductance in the "model" of resistors, as the wiring between components, the wire of the scope probe's reference lead, and the "real" resistors themselves always include some inductance. But in the present case these small inductances have only little effect on the outcome.

What _does_ affect the outcome in this case is the fact that the coil is acting like a Transmission Line, with distributed inductance and capacitance, that result in nodes and peaks of standing waves and reinforcement and nulling due to reflections along the coil.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 30, 2017, 04:24:36 AM
That's a "sirius" problem all right, because your 220 VAC is the RMS value, and you should be able to charge your capacitor to very near the Peak value of the AC supply which would be about 310 V.

Yes
Sirius  ;D
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 30, 2017, 04:37:22 AM
I wasn't get it right away. Somehow I assumed it was a positive signal from the FG, but obviously it was AC current,
so it was apparent power . Sometimes it is easy to fall into some traps. :)

Thanks to tinman  for experiment, it points to some directions.

It is important to realize that results of this kind can be obtained with totally positive signals, square pulses or sine waves with  even 120 percent positive offset (or negative offset), and in any inductive coil, whether flat Tesla Bifilar winding or round solenoid single-winding, as long as the stimulation is of such frequency so as to be able to see the Transmission Line characteristics of the coil. Of course it helps immensely if the coil in question has a lot of distributed capacitance along with its distributed inductance, and it is here that the Tesla Bifilar winding (whether flat or solenoid) makes the difference, by making these phenomena easy to see with ordinary equipment and ordinary lab techniques.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 30, 2017, 04:48:54 AM
My response video to Russ's response video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHqs72bYyUw
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 30, 2017, 05:20:04 AM
By using a TBF coil with more turns he could have brought the frequency range of interest down to within the range of his current probes. And as we know, as I have demonstrated,  you don't need a pancake coil to show the effect, it works just fine with TBF solenoid coils too, which are _much_ easier to wind. And it even works with monofilar coils, but less strongly since they have less distributed capacitance.

Russ demonstrated the phase shift which we all know is there and which will occur in _any_ inductive coil whether flat, solenoidal, Tesla bifilar, or monofilar wound.
It's too bad he didn't also demonstrate the power analysis software of his scope. He probably needed the current probes active and deskewed to be able to do that.

So the appropriate way to test this circuit is to measure the Vdrop across each resistor separately, without making groundloops by misconnecting the voltage probe references. In fact I do this using the same scope channel and probe, by moving the probe from resistor to resistor, so as to be absolutely sure not to introduce ground loops (and also I know for a fact that my FG's outputs are isolated from ground; is Russ's FG also isolated in this way? Many aren't.) This will give the actual power dissipated in the resistors, and no correction for phase need be applied in this purely resistive case.  Then one measures the power relationships in the inductive portions separately, and using the Phase Shift between voltage and current in the inductors themselves, one can calculate the Real power, Reactive Power, and Apparent Power in those mostly non-dissipative inductors. Here is where Russ's Power Analysis software in his scope would come in handy.
 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Vortex1 on April 30, 2017, 05:28:50 AM
My response video to Russ's response video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHqs72bYyUw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHqs72bYyUw)

Good job on the response to response video Brad.

More informative, and tells the truth of the matter.  :)

Keep up the good work!

Regards

P.S. might be interesting to put some tiny matched incandescent lamps in place of the 100 ohm resistors and drive the circuit harder....just for fun.  ;)

That would give you an  eyeball current and power indication / balance in the loop.
Three would be even better, one on the right, the middle and the left. Just don't connect the scope or the balance will be upset.
 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 30, 2017, 06:41:18 AM
Good job on the response to response video Brad.

More informative, and tells the truth of the matter.  :)

Keep up the good work!

Regards

P.S. might be interesting to put some tiny matched incandescent lamps in place of the 100 ohm resistors and drive the circuit harder....just for fun.  ;)

That would give you an  eyeball current and power indication / balance in the loop.
Three would be even better, one on the right, the middle and the left. Just don't connect the scope or the balance will be upset.

Hi Vortex

I tried the smallest grain of wheat bulbs i have,and the SG just dose not have the power to light them up.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 30, 2017, 06:42:55 AM
Below are the scope shots with associated scope placings as requested by TK,with the widened time scale.
I have also included the math trace for each,which is showing the result of V x I.

Anyone seeing a pattern forming here with all these tests ?


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 30, 2017, 06:45:04 AM
Those tiny incandescent lamps are called "grain of wheat" bulbs and I am happy--- and rather astonished--- to see that they are still available in this day of the ubiquitous LED.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/?_nkw=grain%20of%20wheat%20lamps

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 30, 2017, 08:16:31 AM
By using a TBF coil with more turns he could have brought the frequency range of interest down to within the range of his current probes. And as we know, as I have demonstrated,  you don't need a pancake coil to show the effect, it works just fine with TBF solenoid coils too, which are _much_ easier to wind. And it even works with monofilar coils, but less strongly since they have less distributed capacitance.

Russ demonstrated the phase shift which we all know is there and which will occur in _any_ inductive coil whether flat, solenoidal, Tesla bifilar, or monofilar wound.
It's too bad he didn't also demonstrate the power analysis software of his scope. He probably needed the current probes active and deskewed to be able to do that.

So the appropriate way to test this circuit is to measure the Vdrop across each resistor separately, without making groundloops by misconnecting the voltage probe references. In fact I do this using the same scope channel and probe, by moving the probe from resistor to resistor, so as to be absolutely sure not to introduce ground loops (and also I know for a fact that my FG's outputs are isolated from ground; is Russ's FG also isolated in this way? Many aren't.) This will give the actual power dissipated in the resistors, and no correction for phase need be applied in this purely resistive case.  Then one measures the power relationships in the inductive portions separately, and using the Phase Shift between voltage and current in the inductors themselves, one can calculate the Real power, Reactive Power, and Apparent Power in those mostly non-dissipative inductors. Here is where Russ's Power Analysis software in his scope would come in handy.
 

Hey T and Brad

So when measuring R1 we can calculate the input power as it is showing input currents whether they are the result of the interaction with the coils and the other resistor or not. Then we have R2 showing more dissipated power than what we see on the input. Whether we have looked at the coils independently or not, with just the 2 resistors we are seeing something more than in on R2.  Is that correct?

Wondering something. I know its probably silly, but what if we took out the 100ohm R1 and put a 50ohm at each end instead.  I dont know why yet exactly but when we have the differences in coil voltages, rms, pp, there seems to be an off balance set in.  Like if we did the 50 on each end, would we have balance? Possibly the 1 winding compared to the other may have differences, but,  anyway.  Cool stuff.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 30, 2017, 09:12:48 AM
Brad there is seemingly something wrong with at least some of the readings in your scopeshots above. Have you changed the FG's output between shots? Look at the first and second shots. I hope we can agree that the CH2 VRMS reading across R1 only, should be the same in both these shots unless the FG's output has changed!

And looking at shots 2 and 3, one would expect the phase shift between CH1 and CH2 to be the same since, presumably, the inductance of the half-coils are the same or nearly the same in the TBF winding. Yet the phase shift shown on #2 is almost perfectly 90 degrees, but on #3 it is quite a bit less,  more like 45 degrees.

Can your scope provide a measurement value for the phase shift?

So I'm wondering "what gives" here with these scopeshots.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 30, 2017, 09:16:10 AM
Hey T and Brad





Mags

Quote
So when measuring R1 we can calculate the input power as it is showing input currents whether they are the result of the interaction with the coils and the other resistor or not. Then we have R2 showing more dissipated power than what we see on the input. Whether we have looked at the coils independently or not, with just the 2 resistors we are seeing something more than in on R2.  Is that correct?

No
Measuring the voltage drop across a resistor with a known value,will give you the input current to the circuit as a whole,and the dissipated power of that resistor.

Quote
Wondering something. I know its probably silly, but what if we took out the 100ohm R1 and put a 50ohm at each end instead.  I dont know why yet exactly but when we have the differences in coil voltages, rms, pp, there seems to be an off balance set in.  Like if we did the 50 on each end, would we have balance? Possibly the 1 winding compared to the other may have differences, but,  anyway.  Cool stuff.

I would suspect that each 50 ohm resistor would show the same value,and the center resistor would still show a higher value.

I believe that the extra energy is within the second coil(as per my diagram),and i believe i have found a way to tap into it  ;)

I just carried out a test,and i can dissipate more power using the coil,than my function generator can deliver to the load it self. ;)

Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 30, 2017, 09:29:01 AM


 

Can your scope provide a measurement value for the phase shift?

So I'm wondering "what gives" here with these scopeshots.

Quote
Brad there is seemingly something wrong with at least some of the readings in your scopeshots above. Have you changed the FG's output between shots? Look at the first and second shots. I hope we can agree that the CH2 VRMS reading across R1 only, should be the same in both these shots unless the FG's output has changed!

The only thing i changed as i went through each step,was the voltage P/D value on the scope,so as to keep each waveform close to the top and bottom of the screen.
The FG was not touched for each test point.
I do not know why the current value changed,when i shifted CH1's probe to the end of L1

Quote
And looking at shots 2 and 3, one would expect the phase shift between CH1 and CH2 to be the same since, presumably, the inductance of the half-coils are the same or nearly the same in the TBF winding. Yet the phase shift shown on #2 is almost perfectly 90 degrees, but on #3 it is quite a bit less,  more like 45 degrees.

Once again,please note the value difference in the VPD,while the time scale remains the same.
Other than that,nothing else was changed during the test.
I am happy to shoot a video showing this,if you like.

But what is the math trace telling you?


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: hoptoad on April 30, 2017, 10:06:19 AM
snip...
I just carried out a test,and i can dissipate more power using the coil,than my function generator can deliver to the load it self. ;)
Brad
Worms! Gotta love em, hard to grasp, slippery as they can be.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 30, 2017, 10:24:25 AM
Brad, I've done the same thing with my Tesla Bifilar solenoid coil, just because it's easier to work with than the pancake coil. Here are my three scopeshots that correspond to your three shots above. Using 10 ohm resistors just as you have done and connected to FG and scope exactly as you have done.

Note that the CH2 RMS measurement is practically the same for #1 and #2, as it should be since the probe and ground reference positions haven't changed. And also note that the phase shifts in #2 and #3 are also the same, as it should be since both half-coils have essentially the same inductance.

I don't much like using the fine-tuning controls on the V/div scales to make the traces the same height on the screen, but since you did that, so did I.

My scope, thankfully, will do Measurements on the Math trace so I've shown the Average value of the Math in all three cases. I'm too coffee-deficient at the moment to be able to tell if these are valid values or what they might mean, though.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 30, 2017, 12:30:06 PM
Please note that the Rigol has known bugs in its RMS measurement calculations so I wouldn't trust those figures. I probably shouldn't have included them in the scopeshots, I should have put p-p values instead so that we humans could calculate the RMS values from them instead of relying on the scope's math for that.


Meanwhile, trusting TinMan's Atten scope's RMS measurements... I performed some calculations using the values from his three scopeshots above. I posted these on OUR but I'm repeating the post here for discussion.

___________________________________

Ok.... it would still be better if your scope could compute the phase shift itself. But in your First shot, if we take the rms current through R1 (CH2) as 0.0618V/10R = 0.0062 Arms as the current being supplied to the system, and the voltage drop across the whole circuit (CH1), and estimate the phase shift as 72 degrees, we then calculate the total input average power as
P = Vrms x Irms x cos (72 degrees)
P = 6.60 x 0.0062 x 0.309
P = 0.0126 W or 12.6 mW

And if we calculate the power dissipated in R1 as
P = Vrms2/R
P = 0.0712/10
P = 0.0005 W

And the power dissipated in R2 as
P = Vrms2/R
P = 0.3482/10
P = 0.0121 W

So we get the total power dissipated in the resistors as
0.0005 + 0.0121 = 0.0126 W or 12.6 mW.

Coincidence?

This result is very sensitive to the Phase Shift in part 1, so we really need a good measurement of that. 
 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 30, 2017, 12:41:27 PM
Brad, I've done the same thing with my Tesla Bifilar solenoid coil, just because it's easier to work with than the pancake coil. Here are my three scopeshots that correspond to your three shots above. Using 10 ohm resistors just as you have done and connected to FG and scope exactly as you have done.

Note that the CH2 RMS measurement is practically the same for #1 and #2, as it should be since the probe and ground reference positions haven't changed. And also note that the phase shifts in #2 and #3 are also the same, as it should be since both half-coils have essentially the same inductance.

I don't much like using the fine-tuning controls on the V/div scales to make the traces the same height on the screen, but since you did that, so did I.

My scope, thankfully, will do Measurements on the Math trace so I've shown the Average value of the Math in all three cases. I'm too coffee-deficient at the moment to be able to tell if these are valid values or what they might mean, though.

So your total P/in is 6.99mW ?
dissipated power in R1&L1 is 4.27mW ?
And in R2& L2 it is 3.81mW ?
So P/in is 6.99mW
P/out is 8.08mW ?

Also,i think my scope is toasted,or has a hickup there some where.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 30, 2017, 01:16:50 PM
So your total P/in is 6.99mW ?
dissipated power in R1&L1 is 4.27mW ?
And in R2& L2 it is 3.81mW ?
So P/in is 6.99mW
P/out is 8.08mW ?

Also,i think my scope is toasted,or has a hickup there some where.


Brad

No, the scope isn't calculating the Math value correctly for some reason. And not trusting the Vrms values, I went ahead and did the P-P x 0.3535 to get RMS values of my own...and they are quite close to the RMS values reported by my scope so maybe the RMS bug has been fixed in the latest firmware revision which I loaded a few weeks ago. But the Math averages shown on the scope are definitely still wrong.

Repeating the same calculations on my values that I did for yours, here's what it looks like.

Total input power is Vrms x Irms x Cos (82.7 degrees) = 4.86 x 0.0193 x 0.127 = 0.0119 W or 11.9 mW.
Power dissipated in R1 is P = I2R = 0.01932 x 10 = 0.003725 W
Power dissipated in R2 is P = I2R = 0.021872 x 10 = 0.004783 W
Total power dissipated in resistors is then 0.00851 W or 8.51 mW.
BUT... my coil has a lot of turns of fine wire and its DC resistance is 10.3 ohms total. So we have to include the power dissipated in that resistance as well.
Power dissipated in coil's DC resistance is P = I2R = 0.01932 x 10.3 = 0.003837 W or 3.84 mW.

And that brings our total dissipation to 0.01235 W or 12.35 mW  -- compared to our input calculation of 11.9 mW. This is within rounding and measurement error of being equal.  COP=1.04 is not significantly greater than 1.0 considering the measurement uncertainties and roundings.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 30, 2017, 01:19:08 PM

Also,i think my scope is toasted,or has a hickup there some where.


Brad

Try join to "church" , maybe you earn a new one, and your envy and of some fellows could become in happiness.


Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 30, 2017, 01:28:56 PM
Repeating the above calculations and taking the scope's reported RMS values and phase shift as "exact", along with a more precise measurement of the DC coil resistance as 10.4 ohms, I get

Total Input Power = 0.011846 W or 11.85 mW.
Total dissipated power in R1+R2+Rcoil = 0.01178 W or 11.78 mW.

Rounding to three significant digits we have 11.8 mW in = 11.8 mW out.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 30, 2017, 01:57:38 PM
Repeating the above calculations and taking the scope's reported RMS values and phase shift as "exact", along with a more precise measurement of the DC coil resistance as 10.4 ohms, I get

Total Input Power = 0.011846 W or 11.85 mW.
Total dissipated power in R1+R2+Rcoil = 0.01178 W or 11.78 mW.

Rounding to three significant digits we have 11.8 mW in = 11.8 mW out.

So your coils are dissipating all the energy they receive?
Quite odd for an inductor-dont you think?.

Is this at it's resonant frequency?,or have you tried a range of frequencies?.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 30, 2017, 02:46:10 PM
So your coils are dissipating all the energy they receive?
Quite odd for an inductor-dont you think?.

Is this at it's resonant frequency?,or have you tried a range of frequencies?.


Brad

No, it's not at resonant frequency, I have tried a range of frequencies and these shots are done where I can get a display that looks somewhat like yours in terms of phase shift.

The coils are acting like a combined resistance + inductance. They are dissipating essentially no power in the inductance and are dissipating power in the resistance. Perhaps they are radiating a little power in RF but that is really negligible. As you can see the calculations come out very balanced as to "input" vs. total dissipation in the resistive elements, both for your coil (assuming very small resistance of your coil) and for mine (using its measured 10.40 ohms DC resistance). No, it's not odd for an inductor, it is behaving just as expected, I think, where it is dissipating power only in its DC resistance.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 30, 2017, 03:08:17 PM
I finally got a set of measurements including the Average Power that are consistent. I think the Rigol's measurements are very sensitive to how many cycles of waveforms are on-screen and how much screen height they take up.

So now the Average Power in this scopeshot, calculated manually from Vrms x Irms x (cos phaseshift) reported values,  is equal to the scope's automatically calculated Average Power on the Math trace.



Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: partzman on April 30, 2017, 03:29:22 PM
I finally got a set of measurements including the Average Power that are consistent. I think the Rigol's measurements are very sensitive to how many cycles of waveforms are on-screen and how much screen height they take up.

So now the Average Power in this scopeshot, calculated manually from Vrms x Irms x (cos phaseshift) reported values,  is equal to the scope's automatically calculated Average Power on the Math trace.

TK,

Yes you are correct regarding the number of cycles taken in the overall measurement as they must be complete cycles for the greatest accuracy.  At present all the math is being calculated from screen edge to screen edge.  Does your scope or TM's have the ability to take measurements between vertical cursors?

PM
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 30, 2017, 03:53:40 PM
TK,

Yes you are correct regarding the number of cycles taken in the overall measurement as they must be complete cycles for the greatest accuracy.  At present all the math is being calculated from screen edge to screen edge.  Does your scope or TM's have the ability to take measurements between vertical cursors?

PM

Yes, the Rigol has vertical and horizontal cursors, but they only report raw voltage, delta-voltage and time and delta-time values. So phase shift would still have to be manually calculated from the delta-t between zero crossings of the waveforms, I guess. There is also an automatic cursor mode that "tracks" what the "quick measurements" show, in other words, the cursors will snap to the portions of the waveform(s) that correspond to what the Measurements are showing. But the cursor readouts themselves only have voltage and time values.

TM's scope also has cursors but I don't know what they can show. I'll have to check the Atten manual.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: sm0ky2 on April 30, 2017, 07:24:23 PM
Those tiny incandescent lamps are called "grain of wheat" bulbs and I am happy--- and rather astonished--- to see that they are still available in this day of the ubiquitous LED.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/?_nkw=grain%20of%20wheat%20lamps (http://www.ebay.com/sch/?_nkw=grain%20of%20wheat%20lamps)


I think the onset of the LED marketplace is what has brought all these
'grains of wheat' out of there warehouses, in an attempt to unload obsoleteness.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: sm0ky2 on April 30, 2017, 07:58:16 PM
I love when you guys completely ignore me....
It gives me a chance to repeat myself from multiple perspectives...


Patent 512,340::::


Clearly states that electricity flows from coil A, TO coil B.


Why then is it insisted upon that people run it in reverse?
It this intentional?  Or merely a consistent oversight?


Is there something you are looking for by creating unnecessary
losses in the system?


Perhaps we should discuss the process of induction.


Emil Lenze described this mathematically as:
V= - [d(flux)/d(t)]


What does this mean?
In short, that the Magnetic flux is induced OPPOSITE
of the direction of current.


How does that apply to our BFPC??


If we had a 'true a/c' it wouldn't matter,
But since our modern timing circuits and SG's
operate by creating a virtual-signal, we have no
negative impulse. What we have is only a positive impulse
and a virtual negative side of the waveform. (see circuit ground)


+ starting from the first coil (outside) of the BPC induces a magnetic flux that
starts at the other end of the second coil (inside).
Following the flows of current and flux, we find the flux inducing a current in the
direction of the current that induced the flux!!


This is what Tesla talks about


If you use the coil backwards, the induced flux dissipates into the surrounding area
instead of outwards to the next adjacent coil trace.


It is not just a matter of magnetic polarity, as is with the SPC.
The loss in flux creates an observable decrease in magnetic field strength.
And in turn, a loss of induction of the response current. (Lenze).




In other words (as Lorentz put it):


F = qE + qv x B


The force (F) of a charge (q) traveling at velocity (v),
through magnetic field B.


In leymans terms, when using the BPC as Tesla prescribes,
the charged particle (electron) increases in velocity.
If operated in reverse, it slows down!


You want to get around this problem?
Create a true a/c condition, by biasing two tandem SG's,
180-degrees out of phase and of opposite polarity,
to a centered arbitrary "0-point",
and you will observe symmetrical operations of the coil in both
directions.


This work-around was not possible (or feasible) in Tesla's time,
which is why he tells us HOW to use it.


Remember freshman class of basic electrical engineering





Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: sm0ky2 on April 30, 2017, 08:05:48 PM
We ignore this in signal processing because we are concerned with
the data, not the electricity.
Our signal generators produce the desired "waveform" on our scopes,
therefore we often forget how we got there.


Negative voltage (with respect to circuit ground) is not the same as
applying a + voltage to the other side of the coil.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 30, 2017, 09:18:49 PM
I love when you guys completely ignore me....
It gives me a chance to repeat myself from multiple perspectives...


Patent 512,340::::


Clearly states that electricity flows from coil A, TO coil B.


Please quote the exact passage in Tesla's patent 512340 where he "clearly states" this.

Quote


Why then is it insisted upon that people run it in reverse?
It this intentional?  Or merely a consistent oversight?


Please state exactly WHICH half-coil of a TBF pancake or solenoid is "A" and which is "B".
What exactly do you mean by "run it in reverse"? Can you demonstrate "forward" and "reverse"
operation of a TBF coil and show the difference in some kind of instrument readings?

Quote


Is there something you are looking for by creating unnecessary
losses in the system?


Perhaps we should discuss the process of induction.


Emil Lenze described this mathematically as:
V= - [d(flux)/d(t)]

That is Faraday's Law of Induction. Lenz's law is the minus sign, indicating that the EMF induced has opposite sign
to the rate of change of the inducing magnetic field.

Quote


What does this mean?
In short, that the Magnetic flux is induced OPPOSITE
of the direction of current.


No, it doesn't.

Are you perhaps confused by the meaning of the differential d(phi)/dt? This is the Time Rate of Change of the magnetic flux.
What happens to the arithmetic sign of this value when phi is increasing or decreasing over time?

Quote


How does that apply to our BFPC??


If we had a 'true a/c' it wouldn't matter,
But since our modern timing circuits and SG's
operate by creating a virtual-signal, we have no
negative impulse. What we have is only a positive impulse
and a virtual negative side of the waveform. (see circuit ground)


That is not true.  I don't know what kind of Signal Generator you might have, but any "normal" SG or FG can be isolated so that, for example, a sine wave output is referenced to GROUND at the zero volt crossings. This is what the Oscilloscope is telling you when the entire full cycle is half above the zero volt reference and half below the zero volt reference.

What is the difference between a "virtual negative" and a negative impulse? Which one will fail to light up a LED or fail to flow through an ordinary diode?

Quote


+ starting from the first coil (outside) of the BPC induces a magnetic flux that
starts at the other end of the second coil (inside).
Following the flows of current and flux, we find the flux inducing a current in the
direction of the current that induced the flux!!


Do you actually understand how a TBF coil is wound? The entire coil goes in the _same direction_.  If you want to "start" at the outside, the first half winding goes from there all the way to the "inside", then the short straight series link goes _back to the outside_ and once again winds from there all the way to the inside again, parallel to and in the same direction as the first half-coil.

Quote

This is what Tesla talks about


Again, please quote the exact passage in Tesla's patent that supports your statement.

Quote


If you use the coil backwards, the induced flux dissipates into the surrounding area
instead of outwards to the next adjacent coil trace.


Please explain how to "use the coil backwards", when it is being stimulated by AC.

Quote


It is not just a matter of magnetic polarity, as is with the SPC.
The loss in flux creates an observable decrease in magnetic field strength.
And in turn, a loss of induction of the response current. (Lenze).


Please demonstrate what you are talking about, by comparing a "backwards" use of the coil
with a "forwards" use and show the difference in induction or "response current" or magnetic field strength.

Quote




In other words (as Lorentz put it):


F = qE + qv x B


The force (F) of a charge (q) traveling at velocity (v),
through magnetic field B.


In leymans terms, when using the BPC as Tesla prescribes,
the charged particle (electron) increases in velocity.
If operated in reverse, it slows down!


Once again, please demonstrate this slowing down of electrons when a TBC coil is
"operated in reverse".

You also seem to be scrambling the multiplication operation symbol 'x' with the vector cross product 'X' and you are neglecting the electric field contribution
entirely.

Quote

You want to get around this problem?
Create a true a/c condition, by biasing two tandem SG's,
180-degrees out of phase and of opposite polarity,
to a centered arbitrary "0-point",
and you will observe symmetrical operations of the coil in both
directions.


I am eagerly looking forward to seeing your demonstration of this "workaround".

Since we are clearly observing symmetrical operations of the coil in both directions
in every experiment involving AC that we have performed, you seem to be talking about something
that nobody has actual experience with. SO once again, please demonstrate
some kind of "non-symmetrical" behaviour of a TBF coil using a function generator or any other
form of AC or DC stimulation.

Quote


This work-around was not possible (or feasible) in Tesla's time,
which is why he tells us HOW to use it.


Again, please quote the exact passage in Tesla's patent 512340, or any other of his
patents or other publications, that supports your statement.

Quote


Remember freshman class of basic electrical engineering

I remember, but apparently you don't.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 30, 2017, 09:22:25 PM
We ignore this in signal processing because we are concerned with
the data, not the electricity.
Our signal generators produce the desired "waveform" on our scopes,
therefore we often forget how we got there.


Negative voltage (with respect to circuit ground) is not the same as
applying a + voltage to the other side of the coil.

And exactly what is the difference? Please DEMONSTRATE what you are talking about.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on May 01, 2017, 07:01:48 AM
Hey brad

What was the res freq of the bifi you have? These 1.2mhz and 1.3, which you had shown at first, are they way above the res freq? Dont remember what yours was.

It seems as though your light test in the 2nd vid to russ, it is possible that if you get rid of the Lt1, Lt2 may get brighter by reducing that added voltage division in the circuit. This is something I hadnt heard of yet for testing and seems to be good.  Like the middle connection between coils is where the load should be? ??? Well thats different for sure. ;) Like the bifi can be used as a sort of supercharger..   Hmm, if we removed r1, would there be balance in the coil and no current in r2? The only thing to set it off balance would be the windings if one is a bit different than the other, like if the ends of the outer windings break off in the same place, one of those, the outer winding, would be a longer wire in the end...


Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on May 01, 2017, 11:04:00 AM
Hey brad

What was the res freq of the bifi you have? These 1.2mhz and 1.3, which you had shown at first, are they way above the res freq? Dont remember what yours was.

It seems as though your light test in the 2nd vid to russ, it is possible that if you get rid of the Lt1, Lt2 may get brighter by reducing that added voltage division in the circuit. This is something I hadnt heard of yet for testing and seems to be good.  Like the middle connection between coils is where the load should be? ??? Well thats different for sure. ;) Like the bifi can be used as a sort of supercharger..   Hmm, if we removed r1, would there be balance in the coil and no current in r2? The only thing to set it off balance would be the windings if one is a bit different than the other, like if the ends of the outer windings break off in the same place, one of those, the outer winding, would be a longer wire in the end...


Mags

Those frequencies seem to be where less P/in for most P/out is.

Never really looked at the specific resonant frequency ,but the ringing in the below picture is it-if you can work that out  :D

It seems that L1 and L2 must work together,in order to get the high current between them.

Not long got home from work,so it's grab a coffee time,and back to the bench.

Going to try that HF isolation transformer at the center tap of the BPC,and see what i can get out of it.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on May 01, 2017, 02:28:06 PM
Mag's and Stefan

I will no longer be acting as a moderator of this thread.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 01, 2017, 07:53:09 PM
It seems like things are getting exciting! :) And for those who until now never recognize anything special  in the pancake bifilar coils ...... please me, they are so entertained at moment ! ;) ;D


Nelson Rocha

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 01, 2017, 08:07:17 PM
Many years in the works ,

actually partzman's open source MEI Bifilar work has been going on for a long time,  it is an ongoing investigation.

more here
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3445.msg61454;topicseen#msg61454
been at his open source bench there for many years.

respectfully
Chet K

edit: spelling correction
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 01, 2017, 08:17:14 PM
Many years in the works ,

actually partzman's open source MEI Bifilar work has been doing on for a long time,  it is an ongoing investigation.

more here
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3445.msg61454;topicseen#msg61454
been at his open source bench there for many years.

respectfully
Chet K


Thanks Ramset by information , but unfortunately this forum that you refer is reserved only to some people which is not my case :)   how i can register in that forum  ? Can you clarify me ?  :)


Nelson Rocha
 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 01, 2017, 09:39:54 PM

That forum is only open source [Peter's rules]
all benches are public view  and always have been.

some fellows who are willing to open source their work and do open source experiments have recently been added there,

However the ultimate goal is to get the environment here to be more respectful[from all contributors]

and do experiments in a fashion where respect rules the day. people actually building in a topic and no unsolicited noise

some people say its not possible here?

very hard to do, but it is a goal.

Peter has a fulltime job and does not even have  advertising
on the site... and very little time to watch over things ,

Bots were attacking day and night when membership was open, so it was closed .

everyone prefers this Venue [Stefan's] and always have.

but sometimes it gets way too busy here to follow experimenters .

respectfully
Chet K





Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 01, 2017, 10:00:30 PM
That forum is only open source [Peter's rules]
all benches are public view  and always have been.

some fellows who are willing to open source their work and do open source experiments have recently been added there,

However the ultimate goal is to get the environment here to be more respectful[from all contributors]

and do experiments in a fashion where respect rules the day. people actually building in a topic and no unsolicited noise

some people say its not possible here?

very hard to do, but it is a goal.

Peter has a fulltime job and does not even have  advertising
on the site... and very little time to watch over things ,

Bots were attacking day and night when membership was open, so it was closed .

everyone prefers this Venue [Stefan's] and always have.

but sometimes it gets way too busy here to follow experimenters .

respectfully
Chet K


Huhhh , i understand ....  about the unsolicited noise  , seems more convenient to some people talk more "freely" about their ideas and analyses, and not be perturbed; where only technical issues are discussed ....  seems fair ;)
ok , Thanks by the your clarification  .

respectfully

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on May 01, 2017, 11:58:17 PM
Oops you can't attach an image to an email so I am posting this here.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: AlienGrey on May 01, 2017, 11:59:56 PM

Huhhh , i understand ....  about the unsolicited noise  , seems more convenient to some people talk more "freely" about their ideas and analyses, and not be perturbed; where only technical issues are discussed ....  seems fair ;)
ok , Thanks by the your clarification  .

respectfully

Nelson Rocha
Nelson could you throw a bit of light on |G|rums thread regarding the iron core winding and the relay please ?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: hfo on May 02, 2017, 08:00:47 AM
May 1, 2017
Hi all,
I really never expected to be posting in this forum, as I had long ago given up on free energy, etc.  In the distant past I spent quite a bit of time experimenting with N-machines, Bedini stuff, and nothing ever panned out.  Every once in a while I poke around to see if there's anything interesting or new that might possibly have a chance.  Never happens.

A couple of days ago something popped up on Youtube that caught my eye.  Tinman's bifilar coil overunity.  It looked so simple.  I followed what he was doing and couldn't fault his technique or results, but I still couldn't believe it.  (BTW, I've been involved with both analog and digital electronics for about 45 years)

After I saw 3 people had replicated it, one with some especially nice scope work I decided to try it myself.  The result was disappointing.  Then on watching Tinman's video again, and noting the LED lit up when he was in the middle of switching from the input side to the output side, I realized that I'd made a mistake in my setup, and corrected the problem.

Now, it does appear to work!??  I don't know what to say.  I told my wife last night, while talking about this, that I placed the odds of this working at about 1%.  But there it is, output larger than input, same resistor values.

Details of build:
Pancake bifilar coil about 10" OD, about 35 pairs of turns, #22 or #24 flexible hookup wire.
BK  4001 FG
TDS210 Scope
Resistors both 150 ohm
Frequency about 700 kHz (for best result, but not a sharp resonance)

I tried just as Tinman did the first time, switching scope and scope ground between input resistor and output resistor.  Then I isolated the input from the FG with a couple of caps just to make sure I wasn't having a weird ground loop problem.  Still worked.

At "resonance" the voltage across the output resistor is roughly 3 times the voltage across the input resistor.

So, I have to ask myself at this point if I'm just buying into a bit of mass delusion, or if this is real.  What am I missing in interpreting this?  I should know better, but there it is (or seems to be).  If this is a delusion, at least I'll have a few hours of thinking that maybe, just maybe, this stuff is possible!






Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on May 02, 2017, 09:08:45 AM
Hey Hfo   Welcome

I deleted your pic as it was up for approval and reposting it resized as the big pictures stretch the page a lot.  I use Picpick free pic editor. I set the image resize to 30% to get the right size.

Thanks for showing

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on May 02, 2017, 09:47:53 AM
Im out of this testing as I dont have a sig gen that hits the freq you guys are looking at.  Looking at another Hantek that is a scope and arb func gen up to 25mhz

Question..   Tesla referred to it as a given freq and potential.  If you change the input voltage does the freq you are operating to see the effect change? just trying to connect dots.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on May 02, 2017, 12:09:50 PM
Oops you can't attach an image to an email so I am posting this here.

MH
Your confused

Below is the correct interpretation.,
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on May 02, 2017, 02:08:18 PM
I hope it is safe for me to post now.

TinMan, MH, you are both right as usual. There is significant capacitive coupling between the two individual half-coils of the bifilar winding, and there is also significant capacitive coupling from the open end of the L1 coil to Ground, through space.

The issue of the proper placement of the CVR is still under discussion and experimentation. I tend to agree with MH on that issue but "traffic continues".

I also want to make it clear that the schematic above is not mine, I just made the ground connections explicit in my edit. The original comes from Partzman, and his coil parameters are listed on that version of the schematic. He has been working on this for a long time, and I and some others are quite new to the program and are still coming "up to speed" as it were.

In my own work with that circuit thus far, I have found that there can be a _huge_ difference in performance depending on whether 50 ohm ordinary resistors, or ~10 ohm non-inductive resistors, are used for the L2 "load".  I'm hoping someone will "donate" a 50 ohm NI resistor to me so that I can eliminate at least one variable in that problem.

 

Mags, I would recommend against getting a combined scope/AWG, as the AWG function in those units is a compromise and generally has low power/voltage output and takes up processing and controls that are better left to the scope function alone. Two separate units will of course cost somewhat more but will be _far_ more versatile in your laboratory use.  Even a "cheepo" DDS AWG stand-alone is likely to be better and easier to use than the AWG built into the scope. But I'm just going by what people are saying on a test equipment forum, I have no personal experience with a combo unit like that.

In answer to your question.... in my experience, yes.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 02, 2017, 02:27:53 PM
I hope it is safe for me to post now.

TinMan, MH, you are both right as usual. There is significant capacitive coupling between the two individual half-coils of the bifilar winding, and there is also significant capacitive coupling from the open end of the L1 coil to Ground, through space.

The issue of the proper placement of the CVR is still under discussion and experimentation. I tend to agree with MH on that issue but "traffic continues".

I also want to make it clear that the schematic above is not mine, I just made the ground connections explicit in my edit. The original comes from Partzman, and his coil parameters are listed on that version of the schematic. He has been working on this for a long time, and I and some others are quite new to the program and are still coming "up to speed" as it were.

In my own work with that circuit thus far, I have found that there can be a _huge_ difference in performance depending on whether 50 ohm ordinary resistors, or ~10 ohm non-inductive resistors, are used for the L2 "load".  I'm hoping someone will "donate" a 50 ohm NI resistor to me so that I can eliminate at least one variable in that problem.

 

Mags, I would recommend against getting a combined scope/AWG, as the AWG function in those units is a compromise and generally has low power/voltage output and takes up processing and controls that are better left to the scope function alone. Two separate units will of course cost somewhat more but will be _far_ more versatile in your laboratory use.  Even a "cheepo" DDS AWG stand-alone is likely to be better and easier to use than the AWG built into the scope. But I'm just going by what people are saying on a test equipment forum, I have no personal experience with a combo unit like that.

In answer to your question.... in my experience, yes.

 Welcome again  :) nobody will eat you man :) Sure is safe  as always have been ;)
 Give now your best to show and recognize that at the end of 91 pages on this thread , the bifilar pancake coil have some value and "special" characteristics of great value  .

Nelson Rocha

"The easiest person to fool is yourself" -- Richard Feynman
:)

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on May 02, 2017, 02:56:29 PM


TinMan, MH, you are both right as usual. There is significant capacitive coupling between the two individual half-coils of the bifilar winding, 


 

 


Quote
and there is also significant capacitive coupling from the open end of the L1 coil to Ground, through space.

 :o
In all honesty,how much could that capacitive value be?--that small ,it would almost be non existent.
How to check--easy. Disconnect L2,and see how much current you can get to flow through the open L1,using this capacitance that is suppose to exist between the end of L1 and ground.
Bet you come up with 0,as i did.

Quote
I hope it is safe for me to post now.

Well,it has nothing to do with me any more.

Quote
The issue of the proper placement of the CVR is still under discussion and experimentation. I tend to agree with MH on that issue but "traffic continues".


After seeing MHs post,i went straight to the bench,and tested again with the CVR placed at the input.
Everything else left the same,i seen no difference in the input power,nor across the load resistor.
You will of course,need to isolate your scope grounds from the FGs ground ,as i have done.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on May 02, 2017, 03:00:23 PM


Mags, I would recommend against getting a combined scope/AWG, as the AWG function in those units is a compromise and generally has low power/voltage output and takes up processing and controls that are better left to the scope function alone. Two separate units will of course cost somewhat more but will be _far_ more versatile in your laboratory use.  Even a "cheepo" DDS AWG stand-alone is likely to be better and easier to use than the AWG built into the scope. But I'm just going by what people are saying on a test equipment forum, I have no personal experience with a combo unit like that.

In answer to your question.... in my experience, yes.

Ok. Ill look. Thanks   That one is +-3.5v at 100ma and the one below is the same but only 50ma.   Like is there an amplifier that could be added?


So in your experience yes...  so this may be what Tesla was speaking of in how you guys are going about it. Why other would he specify given freq and potential.  Does the freq go up as the potential is lower or higher? Thanks

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on May 02, 2017, 03:06:04 PM
Welcome again  :) nobody will eat you man :) Sure is safe  as always have been ;)
 Give now your best to show and recognize that at the end of 91 pages on this thread , the bifilar pancake coil have some value and "special" characteristics of great value  .

Nelson Rocha

"The easiest person to fool is yourself" -- Richard Feynman
 :)

Hello Nelson, I am glad to see that you are paying attention and reading along.

Another of my favorite Feynman quotes is this one:

"It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong."

There have been some recent experimental results reported elsewhere that might interest you.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 02, 2017, 03:08:41 PM
Hello Nelson, I am glad to see that you are paying attention and reading along.

Another of my favorite Feynman quotes is this one:

"It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong."

There have been some recent experimental results reported elsewhere that might interest you.


Like i already told many times i'm learn all time  even when suck experiments are not new ;) did you make the same?

https://youtu.be/I_eja4gmpcY?t=211

https://youtu.be/Te7NcDY-afQ?t=100


Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on May 02, 2017, 03:09:51 PM
I have a bifi coil made of 26ga.  The dimensions  are 1in w 2 1/8in dia and 5/8 air (some plastic) core. Dont have the turns no.  It is 1.16mh and 16.07nf.  Switching on dc then cutoff the scope says 14.88khz for the wave developed.  Calc says like 35khz  Anyway,  Im wondering if this coil needs to be run in the mhz range like what you guys are finding to get the results you get.  Could it be more the length of the wires that is dictating that upper freq range above the normal resonant freq that needs to be hit?

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on May 02, 2017, 03:13:33 PM

No....no.....no....

Hmmm.  Well Im trying to figure it out.  Seemed like a relationship of what was said and what is happening was developing. 

But Ill nix it for now...

Back to the drawing board...

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on May 02, 2017, 03:13:44 PM
Mags, that Hantek is a nice looking unit... but does it really say "Forse" on the Force Trigger button?  That's even worse than the Rigol's "pluses" for pulses error, because at least you don't have to always see the "pluses" in the Rigol!

 :o

A decent stand-alone DDS AWG or FG will produce the standard 15 v p-p into 50 ohms and should be able to provide a Watt or two of power I should think. Some older analog units like my Interstate F43 are considerably more powerful than that... the F43 will do 40 v p-p into 50 ohms. But it is limited to about 4 MHz max frequency and at the top output and top frequency the sine wave starts to distort. That may just be down to old age though... I should probably re-cap that thing at some point.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on May 02, 2017, 03:17:34 PM
Hmmm.  Well Im trying to figure it out.  Seemed like a relationship of what was said and what is happening was developing. 

But Ill nix it for now...

Back to the drawing board...

Mags

Actually it depends on the circuit and the exact type of coil. The "ordinary" TBF pancake or solenoid coil is quite stable when voltage is varied when only connected to a minimal circuit, say, to establish resonant frequency by itself. But we have seen more complicated circuits where these coils and other coils do change their characteristics depending on the voltage supplied to the circuit and also to surroundings which can interact through capacitance, and this IS highly voltage dependent. SO... no no no, and also yes yes yes.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on May 02, 2017, 03:25:55 PM
I have a bifi coil made of 26ga.  The dimensions  are 1in w 2 1/8in dia and 5/8 air (some plastic) core. Dont have the turns no.  It is 1.16mh and 16.07nf.  Switching on dc then cutoff the scope says 14.88khz for the wave developed.  Calc says like 35khz  Anyway,  Im wondering if this coil needs to be run in the mhz range like what you guys are finding to get the results you get.  Could it be more the length of the wires that is dictating that upper freq range above the normal resonant freq that needs to be hit?

Mags

To get the actual distributed capacitance you have to work backwards from the resonant frequency and measured inductance. Just separating the two half-coils by disconnecting the centertap link and measuring capacitance between the two halfs doesn't give you the correct distributed capacitance value. SO get the ringing frequency from your scopetest, which is 14.88 kHz (nice and low due to your high inductance of 1.16 mH) and go to the Resonant Frequency Calculator here:
http://www.1728.org/resfreq.htm
and enter the freq and inductance and solve for capacitance. This will be your correct interturn distributed capacitance. If you have the inductance and capacitance values correct that is.


Yes, at the high frequencies being used to see the "effect", inductances of probe connections and other wiring become significant.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on May 02, 2017, 03:34:45 PM
To get the actual distributed capacitance you have to work backwards from the resonant frequency and measured inductance. Just separating the two half-coils by disconnecting the centertap link and measuring capacitance between the two halfs doesn't give you the correct distributed capacitance value. SO get the ringing frequency from your scopetest, which is 14.88 kHz (nice and low due to your high inductance of 1.16 mH) and go to the Resonant Frequency Calculator here:
http://www.1728.org/resfreq.htm (http://www.1728.org/resfreq.htm)
and enter the freq and inductance and solve for capacitance. This will be your correct interturn distributed capacitance. If you have the inductance and capacitance values correct that is.


Yes, at the high frequencies being used to see the "effect", inductances of probe connections and other wiring become significant.

Says 71nf.  Was just showing as an example wondering if this coil possibly needs to be operated in the mhz range also.  Just thinking.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on May 02, 2017, 03:37:28 PM

I find your devotion to single sine function curious.  You read Tesla's statement and owing to your "conditioning", "automatically" assume" that he is talking about what you think he is talking about.  Why do you people insist on isolating the one from of the many, rather than embracing the many, and applying to them, that which is applied to the one!

Just trying to work with these guys a bit to see the other things that are being looked at. Hopefully we will figure out what you are trying to get us to figure out also.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on May 02, 2017, 05:28:26 PM
Russ Gries his video response #2 to tinman

https://youtu.be/a86D2MPLmpE (https://youtu.be/a86D2MPLmpE)

get your calculators out!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: hfo on May 02, 2017, 05:33:04 PM
Thought I'd try isolating both input and output with toroids, hand wound approx 1 to 1.

Setup:
FG hooked directly to primary of first toroid.
Secondary of first toroid hooked to device (to resistor, as though replacing FG in Tinman setup).
Replace output resistor with primary of second toroid, moving output resistor to secondary of that toroid.
Both resistors 150 Ohm metal film (couldn't find any 100 Ohms).
Sine wave (analog BK 4001 FG) input.
Testing at resonance at 304 kHz.

Input voltage drop as measured across input resistor: 0.820 V P-P (820 mV).
Output voltage across resistor at secondary of second toroid: 3.1 V P-P.
FG output voltage: 18.4V P-P.

If I remove the output load resistor:
Voltage drop across input resistor: 6.52V P-P
Voltage at output of secondary of second toroid: 42.0V P-P
FG output voltage: 17.6V P-P.

Note that the voltage across (and current through) input resistor DROPS when the load is applied.  I'm having a hard time understanding this.

Anyone have a theory yet on what's going on?

For those who want to replicate this novel experiment, the hardest part for me was winding that coil.  I took a 10" x 10" piece of aluminum plate (could be steel or glass) and taped down down some paired hookup wire in the center.  Then I started tacking down the pair of wires using a hot glue gun every 30 degrees or so, making a circle, and going out from there.  I would put a blob on the metal and quickly push the pair of wires into it, and keep going.  Took a couple of hours to make it.  At the end I put a lot more hot glue on the outer windings then hit the whole thing with a hot air gun (hair dryer may work, don't know).  Then slid a drywall knife under it to lift it off the aluminum, and put some tape on it to hold it together.

Some folks have talked about grain of wheat bulbs, which I think run at 12V.  I believe that the old incandescent small Christmas tree bulbs may work at a lower voltage (seems like 6V), if you can find some.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on May 03, 2017, 12:30:57 AM
Partzman's testing and attempts at replication are interesting and a worthwhile exercise.  However, this is at best indirectly related to the bifilar pancake coil.  Just look at title of his schematic, "Bifilar Pancake Transformer."  It's not a coil, it's a transformer.  I still encourage this discussion on this thread.

The transformer discussion has pretty much hijacked the real purpose of this thread.  I was leaving it up to the contributors to continue the discussion about the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil.  What unique purpose or purposes does it serve?  What is special about it and what can you do with it?  What practical applications are there for it that specifically require a Tesla series bifilar pancake coil?

So is it real or is it just one of millions of patents that were never used in the real world and the only reason it is discussed is because Tesla's name is on it?

The field is wide open and I hope we hear more than crickets chirping.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 03, 2017, 02:07:36 AM
Here it would seem the paths can go in many directions ,Evostar is exploring a path more inline with his topic here, TinMan has posted an effect also  and Partzman is exploring his ongoing [years long] MEI work with Bifilar coils ...

there will be another thread here to focus more on A Partzman MEI build that all can replicate to get an "effect" to play with.

hopefully by tomorrow ,

it will also be in the moderated section here.

respectfully
Chet K
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: hfo on May 03, 2017, 02:52:37 AM
I had the opportunity to get away from the bench and think about this some.  Tinmans original observations pertained only to current flow in input resistor vs. resistor in center of coil.  He made no claims as to overunity.

In fact FG voltage * input resistor current is approximately equal to output voltage * output current in my experiments.

So, overunity no, odd behavior due do to distributed capacitance yes.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 03, 2017, 12:56:45 PM
Partzman's testing and attempts at replication are interesting and a worthwhile exercise.  However, this is at best indirectly related to the bifilar pancake coil.  Just look at title of his schematic, "Bifilar Pancake Transformer."  It's not a coil, it's a transformer.  I still encourage this discussion on this thread.

The transformer discussion has pretty much hijacked the real purpose of this thread.  I was leaving it up to the contributors to continue the discussion about the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil.  What unique purpose or purposes does it serve?  What is special about it and what can you do with it?  What practical applications are there for it that specifically require a Tesla series bifilar pancake coil?

So is it real or is it just one of millions of patents that were never used in the real world and the only reason it is discussed is because Tesla's name is on it?

The field is wide open and I hope we hear more than crickets chirping.



Seems that you really need go to bench work a bit and make some tests  , and discover by yourself about the questions that you ask , like others do .  Sitting around waiting as someone expects rain is never a good solution.

For sure you will have many things to talk after do some tests about the subject of pancake coil , otherwise like you say you only able hear crickets chirping, because other people are more concerned in working to clarify some of the points of the thread, that call's research  :)
Now if you assume is nothing more to explore on this thread try not be so repetitive about your questions otherwise ,you run the risk of looking a annoying person ask all time the same things .

Why you don't try play a bit with such coils ? even you spend some of your precious time is better than you become annoyed without know in first hand, some of the points that you refute  about any possible advantage of this coils .
I really don't understand such position .  :(

About you say the transformer discussion has pretty much hijacked the real purpose of this thread, i really don't agree with you , because we already change some posts between us about themes like  efficiency of power transfer with this type of coils with a video shot included, but you simple argue and refute saying that a normal transformer  have much advantage in this process of transfer power in relation to a transformer made by bifilar pancake coil , but now you say that a bifilar coil is not a transformer and is only indirectly related   .... this is to i laugh ? what seems to you that ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEZSCNHDYJs
Is only a coil ?

Do you think people are stupid that not understand what is a transformer and a coil  ? Or you think you are really more cleaver than others  ?
Make something  useful instead of simple create noise, because until now you not add nothing practical and positive to this thread with such behavior.
Do you think you are help anyone at moment ?  To me seems not

Have a nice day

Nelson Rocha




 


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: web000x on May 03, 2017, 01:13:01 PM
Russ Gries his video response #2 to tinman

https://youtu.be/a86D2MPLmpE (https://youtu.be/a86D2MPLmpE)

get your calculators out!


I'm not sure the way he is measuring power in that is even useful.  He is using L1 & R1 for one power measurement and L2 & R2 for another.  The current into L1 is not the same as the current leaving L1.  The current into L2 is not the same as the current leaving L2.. Therefore his attempt to isolate the power in each coil section by way of volt-amp-phase angle seems to not be very informative.


Dave
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 03, 2017, 01:21:36 PM
Another interesting effect observed between a bifilar pancake coil when transfer power to a normal bifilar coil properly tuned,  is that seems the input is not affected when load is connected, where apparently the input decrease when a load is connected.
Just another simple test that could be made with this coils .

https://goo.gl/photos/BtUjDgGUQW39GU8f7

Nelson Rocha 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on May 03, 2017, 02:01:29 PM
Did Russ's fancy scope and power factor correction measurements, calculate the actual current value flowing through R2,and hence,the correct power measurements ?

Can you use conventional power measurements for an unconventional system?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyG3F_4-TLo

Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on May 03, 2017, 02:26:46 PM
Oops you can't attach an image to an email so I am posting this here.

MH

Myself and TK have tested your theory,and it seems to make no difference as to where the CVR is placed-be it at the ground end,or the input as you showed.

Further testing is being done,but at this point in time,either way,the OU result still stand's--until we find that !red herring! hiding some where  ???

Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on May 03, 2017, 03:02:25 PM
The MH test results.

A 100 ohm resistor on the ground side,and a 100 ohm resistor on the input side.

No difference in current measured.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on May 03, 2017, 03:48:34 PM
Yep. And in the full Partzman system that I have been testing, I disconnected all probes and then simply measured the Vdrop across the original resistor with the CH2 probe, stored the trace in the scope as Green reference R1,  and then moved CH2 probe and groundclip to the other "MH location" resistor and measured the Vdrop there. (FG is isolated from ground, so no groundloops are created.)

The Green trace is the stored reference trace from one resistor and the Blue trace is the live trace from the other resistor. They overlap almost perfectly so I moved the Green trace up one division for clarity. There is no difference in input current measured in the two resistors.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on May 03, 2017, 04:11:38 PM

Seems that you really need go to bench work a bit and make some tests  , and discover by yourself about the questions that you ask , like others do .  Sitting around waiting as someone expects rain is never a good solution.

For sure you will have many things to talk after do some tests about the subject of pancake coil , otherwise like you say you only able hear crickets chirping, because other people are more concerned in working to clarify some of the points of the thread, that call's research  :)
Now if you assume is nothing more to explore on this thread try not be so repetitive about your questions otherwise ,you run the risk of looking a annoying person ask all time the same things .

Why you don't try play a bit with such coils ? even you spend some of your precious time is better than you become annoyed without know in first hand, some of the points that you refute  about any possible advantage of this coils .
I really don't understand such position .  :(

About you say the transformer discussion has pretty much hijacked the real purpose of this thread, i really don't agree with you , because we already change some posts between us about themes like  efficiency of power transfer with this type of coils with a video shot included, but you simple argue and refute saying that a normal transformer  have much advantage in this process of transfer power in relation to a transformer made by bifilar pancake coil , but now you say that a bifilar coil is not a transformer and is only indirectly related   .... this is to i laugh ? what seems to you that ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEZSCNHDYJs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEZSCNHDYJs)
Is only a coil ?

Do you think people are stupid that not understand what is a transformer and a coil  ? Or you think you are really more cleaver than others  ?
Make something  useful instead of simple create noise, because until now you not add nothing practical and positive to this thread with such behavior.
Do you think you are help anyone at moment ?  To me seems not

Have a nice day

Nelson Rocha

You stop posting crap like this about me.  You can kiss my ass.  I stand by what I am saying and it is true.  Threads get derailed because people chase after one thing and they forget the original purpose of the thread.

Quote
what seems to you that ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEZSCNHDYJs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEZSCNHDYJs)
Is only a coil ?

It's a nonsense clip that is just "show and tell" for an air core transformer and indeed it's only a bloody coil.  I told you already that a normal air-core transformer will outperform a bifilar pancake coil transformer and I told you exactly why with valid technical reasons.  So why are you showing that useless clip again?

Do you want to improve your performance in your clips?  I suppose that you are not comfortable to speak English in your clips.  Go ahead and speak in your native language of Portuguese.  If you speak clearly YouTube should be able to convert your speech to text and then translate the text into English in real time.  Also do a write-up underneath your clip that states what you are doing as well as summarizing your data.  You can even do that in Portuguese and then we can copy and paste it into Google Translate if we want to.

Kiss my ass with your "have a nice day" BS.  Your whole posting was useless noise and trash talk about me.  Improve your clips so you actually state something of value and you summarize what you did with data.  The last thing we need from you is another clip that says, "Look mom!  I can make an air-core transformer!"
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 03, 2017, 04:19:47 PM
 

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3445.msg61553;topicseen#msg61553

the hunt still continues !

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on May 03, 2017, 04:31:55 PM
The MH test results.

A 100 ohm resistor on the ground side,and a 100 ohm resistor on the input side.

No difference in current measured.

If you want a good suggestion Brad it would be to take a step back and do a slow methodical frequency sweep starting at low frequencies to observe what takes place.  For example, if you removed the center resistor and set your signal generator to say 100 Hz, then it's pretty certain that the setup would be a dead duck.  At higher frequencies, is it capacitively coupling or is it inductively coupling?  The way to find that out would be to look at all the parameters at different discrete frequencies and see what trends take place as you try 100 Hz, 500 Hz,. 1 kHz, 5 kHz, and so on.  You can determine the frequency steps for yourself.

On thing is certain is that as the frequency increases the setup will start to "come alive" and if you carefully monitor things you might be able to determine what effects are taking place and when and how the apparent OU is manifesting itself.  This looks to be a study in the increasing effects of parasitic capacitance and inductance as the frequency increases.  The parasitic effects make it more difficult to do an energy audit trail just like the high frequencies make it more difficult to do an energy audit trail.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 03, 2017, 04:38:15 PM
You stop posting crap like this about me.  You can kiss my ass.  I stand by what I am saying and it is true.  Threads get derailed because people chase after one thing and they forget the original purpose of the thread.

It's a nonsense clip that is just "show and tell" for an air core transformer and indeed it's only a bloody coil.  I told you already that a normal air-core transformer will outperform a bifilar pancake coil transformer and I told you exactly why with valid technical reasons.  So why are you showing that useless clip again?

Do you want to improve your performance in your clips?  I suppose that you are not comfortable to speak English in your clips.  Go ahead and speak in your native language of Portuguese.  If you speak clearly YouTube should be able to convert your speech to text and then translate the text into English in real time.  Also do a write-up underneath your clip that states what you are doing as well as summarizing your data.  You can even do that in Portuguese and then we can copy and paste it into Google Translate if we want to.

Kiss my ass with your "have a nice day" BS.  Your whole posting was useless noise and trash talk about me.  Improve your clips so you actually state something of value and you summarize what you did with data.  The last thing we need from you is another clip that says, "Look mom!  I can make an air-core transformer!"

I hope that the moderators of this forum are consistent with what they have done in similar situations with other people that use such language.

Nelson Rocha

PS- Grow big CHILD
 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on May 03, 2017, 04:48:27 PM
I hope that the moderators of this forum are consistent with what they have done in similar situations with other people that use such language.

Nelson Rocha

PS- Grow big CHILD

Hey, you can discuss the project or else you can GET LOST.  I am not here to read useless crap from you about me.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 03, 2017, 04:57:58 PM
Hey, you can discuss the project or else you can GET LOST.  I am not here to read useless crap from you about me.

Don't be rude man what crap i say about you ? Did you not write what i point ? Just rewind and see what you write .
 Are you concerned now if i want improve my performance of my clips : ? I'm not concerned about that .. did you already end your dislikes in my videos ? You could create another account and do again that big child . I don't need improve nothing in my videos because even normal people can figure out the message only you with such intellectual superiority not .

I wish you a nice day again to you

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 03, 2017, 04:58:57 PM

My post was removed completely almost immediately....his is still there after 30min....double standards.....
We will see if the Treatment is the same for all ...
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on May 03, 2017, 05:01:27 PM
You stop posting crap like this about me.  You can kiss my ass.  I stand by what I am saying and it is true.  Threads get derailed because people chase after one thing and they forget the original purpose of the thread.

It's a nonsense clip that is just "show and tell" for an air core transformer and indeed it's only a bloody coil.  I told you already that a normal air-core transformer will outperform a bifilar pancake coil transformer and I told you exactly why with valid technical reasons.  So why are you showing that useless clip again?

Do you want to improve your performance in your clips?  I suppose that you are not comfortable to speak English in your clips.  Go ahead and speak in your native language of Portuguese.  If you speak clearly YouTube should be able to convert your speech to text and then translate the text into English in real time.  Also do a write-up underneath your clip that states what you are doing as well as summarizing your data.  You can even do that in Portuguese and then we can copy and paste it into Google Translate if we want to.

Kiss my ass with your "have a nice day" BS.  Your whole posting was useless noise and trash talk about me.  Improve your clips so you actually state something of value and you summarize what you did with data.  The last thing we need from you is another clip that says, "Look mom!  I can make an air-core transformer!"

Other than the resonance part it is not derailed. I asked Brad to bring back his pizzaz and he did.  If we are going to put this thing to rest it should be done thoroughly. And there is more to do beyond these imagination driven ideas that are being tried right now.  We still have to put pulsing through the ringer. Transformer action between the 2 windings where one is pri and the other the sec.  Someone had proclaimed to me something about the Bedini bifi coil. He said that when the coil fired, you can collect from the bifi drive coil and the trigger coil and that there was more there than was put in. As in, what ever was taken from the drive coil during field collapse, it is unchanged when you take from the trigger coil also. The shown circuit doesnt really provide that feature it seems. ;)   

Enough with the language barrier stuff.


Id say that coil running 'that' motor with an air core with loose coupling was impressive. It wasnt like a string of leds or ne bulbs. Id say by the looks of it that motor is not a flyweight.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on May 03, 2017, 05:01:56 PM

My post was removed completely almost immediately....his is still there after 30min....double standards.....

Saying "kiss my ass" is not considered real profanity.  And he deserved it.  The last thing this thread needs is this  "Latin bouncer troll" nonsense.

Everybody needs to stay on topic.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 03, 2017, 05:06:19 PM
Saying "kiss my ass" is not considered real profanity.  And he deserved it.  The last thing this thread needs is this  "Latin bouncer troll" nonsense.

Everybody needs to stay on topic.

Profanity is you insult people and go out with impunity like you usually do .and are you call troll to me ? The biggest TROLL of all times , the guy that only see their own belly button and not accept any critic .
Grow up big child

Have a nice day
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 03, 2017, 05:06:56 PM
Miles
starting with your condescending comment ... the intentionally dismissive "a good exercise"

you are just hunting for a flame war, and now you draw ethnicity and vulgarity into it.!

Not good not good at all !!



Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on May 03, 2017, 05:26:07 PM
Miles
starting with your condescending comment ... the intentionally dismissive "a good exercise"

you are just hunting for a flame war, and now you draw ethnicity and vulgarity into it.!

Not good not good at all !!

Saying "a worthwhile exercise" is "intentionally dismissive?"  Get your head screwed on right because there is nothing intentionally dismissive about that.  Condescending comment?  Where?

Nelson is playing a Latin bouncer, go after him for that.  Did you see his long ugly posting?  Stop the political correctness.  I used the word "Latin" and your snowflakes are melting?  lol

All this nonsense talk should stop right now and Nelson can discuss the project or else keep his mouth shut.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 03, 2017, 05:37:54 PM
There is no continuity in your behavior ,nor the double standard which you attempt [very poorly]
to uphold.

practice what you preach


Also
your attempting to make points for your negative[negating] claims ...when there is no conclusion whatsoever on the bench "yet".

resonant ...Pancakes ...waffles or "other"

an ongoing investigation which is actually just getting started [here]

no dismissive conclusions or lines in the sand.

and yes "a worthwhile exercise" is MH talk for _nothing new here , let the minions learn something...they need the exercise _.




Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 03, 2017, 05:47:55 PM
Saying "a worthwhile exercise" is "intentionally dismissive?"  Get your head screwed on right because there is nothing intentionally dismissive about that.  Condescending comment?  Where?

Nelson is playing a Latin bouncer, go after him for that.  Did you see his long ugly posting?  Stop the political correctness.  I used the word "Latin" and your snowflakes are melting?  lol

All this nonsense talk should stop right now and Nelson can discuss the project or else keep his mouth shut.

You don't have authority or even moral to say to other people shut up . Just respect other people if you want be respected . You are the worst person to talk about respect simple because you not respect most of people  .
 
If you forget i will remember you :
 was the "Latin boys" that open the thread and start talk about the subject of bifilar pancake coils that you since begin try  put noise .
what you have against Latin people ? Your thoughts are disturbed by your ideas of superiority and Xenophobic attitude  , but to me you are nothing then a Badly formed person.


Go listen crickets chirping.

Have a nice day

Nelson Rocha


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on May 03, 2017, 05:50:37 PM
Nelson, stop posting useless nonsense and post something about the project.  If you have nothing to say about the project then shut up.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 03, 2017, 05:58:52 PM
Nelson, stop posting useless nonsense and post something about the project.  If you have nothing to say about the project then shut up.
I post things about this subject since begin , and the nonsense videos like you talk and  is not only from youtube like you say :

"Another interesting effect observed between a bifilar pancake coil when transfer power to a normal bifilar coil properly tuned,  is that seems the input is not affected when load is connected, where apparently the input decrease when a load is connected.
Just another simple test that could be made with this coils .

https://goo.gl/photos/BtUjDgGUQW39GU8f7" did you think i'm worry to promote my youtube channel ? look well to the link of last video i post  !

watch and  learn !

Have a nice day !


PS -IS NOT COPY PAST MAN ! :)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 03, 2017, 06:02:59 PM
Miles
whether you like it or Not
Nelson's work inspired the present path of investigation, he has been beating the Drum for quite some time, it just so happens that Partzman's MEI work is taking the stage ATM, as it is open source
and been a long time in the works.

attempting to make definitive statements [your attempts] about this path of investigation
 is completely premature .

and I agree with Nelson , your condescending "shut up " is yet another example or your poor behavior, and weak social skills.

Myself and others are grateful that Nelson got the focus back on this topic ,and many here are having a wonderful time .

regardless the outcome.....


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on May 03, 2017, 06:08:17 PM

"Another interesting effect observed between a bifilar pancake coil when transfer power to a normal bifilar coil properly tuned,  is that seems the input is not affected when load is connected, where apparently the input decrease when a load is connected.
Just another simple test that could be made with this coils .

https://goo.gl/photos/BtUjDgGUQW39GU8f7 (https://goo.gl/photos/BtUjDgGUQW39GU8f7)" did you think i'm worry to promote my youtube channel ? look well to the link of last video i post  !

Please go ahead Nelson and summarize for us what you are doing in that clip and what the measurements are and what your conclusion is.  You need to add some substance, just watching your camera pan back and forth to your meters is of very little value.  You need present proper data and make a conclusion.

Chet:  Take your passive-aggressiveness and go buy yourself a happy face sticker.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 03, 2017, 06:11:27 PM
Miles
Must be nothing on TV today ??

learn to play nice and practice what you preach !

we all know that Nelson can't discuss his work ,and soo do you....


http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3445.msg61562;topicseen#msg61562
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on May 03, 2017, 06:30:16 PM
lol  So he links to his clip but he can't say what is in his clip but I am supposed to "watch and learn?"  lol

Perhaps you are freaking out and in dread of the likelihood that there is not going to be a "killer app" for the Tesla series bifilar coil and it's all just a "make work" project that goes nowhere and accomplishes nothing.  A rational approach to electronics will prevail and coils are all fine and dandy, but there is no need to make a series bifilar solenoid coil and no need to make a series bifilar pancake coil.  I am not discussing Partzman's transformer project here, just the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil itself.  I am sure the manufacture and application of coils is a multi-billion dollar industry, after all.  Every single modern DC-to-DC converter has a coil in it.  They must be used in the billions per year.  Every single cell phone, every single motherboard, the list goes on and on.

If rational thought prevails and there is no found "killer app" then people can move on and forget about the Tesla series bifilar coil.  That would be a success for all concerned, a breath of fresh air.  Then, when people make coils for pulse motors or whatever, they will not wind them in a series bifilar fashion like some hapless members of a cargo cult.

The proof will be in the pudding and we will see what happens.

You can go to Plan B and talk about pistol shrimps instead, right?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 03, 2017, 06:40:32 PM
Please go ahead Nelson and summarize for us what you are doing in that clip and what the measurements are and what your conclusion is.  You need to add some substance, just watching your camera pan back and forth to your meters is of very little value.  You need present proper data and make a conclusion.

Chet:  Take you passive-aggressiveness and go buy yourself a happy face sticker.

To clever people is easy see what i try show .   but i will say again :
"Another interesting effect observed between a bifilar pancake coil when transfer power to a normal bifilar coil properly tuned,  is that seems the input is not affected when load is connected, where apparently the input decrease when a load is connected."

Is not enough to such person so smart like you understand that ?
If you need help to reproduce yourself just PM and i will help you ;)

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on May 03, 2017, 06:54:14 PM
To clever people is easy see what i try show .   but i will say again :
"Another interesting effect observed between a bifilar pancake coil when transfer power to a normal bifilar coil properly tuned,  is that seems the input is not affected when load is connected, where apparently the input decrease when a load is connected."

Is not enough to such person so smart like you understand that ?
If you need help to reproduce yourself just PM and i will help you ;)

Unfortunately it is not a particularly interesting effect and it has nothing to do with the fact that you are using a bifilar pancake coil and a normal pancake coil.  What you say has been observed and reported on this forum many times before, too many times to count.

Yes, apparently the input decreases when the load is connected and all that you are doing is making an anecdotal observation of this effect.  You actually don't know why this is happening.  There is in fact a real reason for it to be happening.  All that you have to do is make proper measurements and use your brains to analyze the situation and figure out exactly how and why this is happening and then explain it to your readers.

But I don't think that is going to be happening.  I don't need your help, but clearly you need help.  But it's not really what this thread is all about.  Why don't you start your own thread and try to understand it with the help of your peers?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 03, 2017, 07:01:22 PM
Unfortunately it is not a particularly interesting effect and it has nothing to do with the fact that you are using a bifilar pancake coil and a normal pancake coil.  What you say has been observed and reported on this forum many times before, too many times to count.

Yes, apparently the input decreases when the load is connected and all that you are doing is making an anecdotal observation of this effect.  You actually don't know why this is happening.  There is in fact a real reason for it to be happening.  All that you have to do is make proper measurements and use your brains to analyze the situation and figure out exactly how and why this is happening and then explain it to your readers.

But I don't think that is going to be happening.  I don't need your help, but clearly you need help.  But it's not really what this thread is all about.  Why don't you start your own thread and try to understand it with the help of your peers?


Forget man , you are struggling against yourself, and to me you are a lost lost case. Keep talk alone . One thing i now :
This forum is not only you , and that is what makes the difference between most other people and your excessive self-centeredness.
I don't like waste my precious time with people like you .
Say what you want , struggle in the way like you like .... is your choice .
Have a nice day
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on May 03, 2017, 07:15:29 PM
You are trying deflection, you are running away because the task is above your skill level.  Take my advice, open a thread and share your data with your peers and work on it together and learn together and do something good.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Acca on May 03, 2017, 07:16:10 PM
Nelson thanks for your posts I have been reading about you formulations and Tesla flat coil, please post here as I have excluded M.h. from all my  views .. He is just angry..


Acca.


p.s


I am very concern'd that you will be hacked to the end here..
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 03, 2017, 07:25:03 PM
You are trying deflection, you are running away because the task is above your skill level.  Take my advice, open a thread and share your data with your peers and work on it together and learn together and do something good.

who say that i running away ? I simple say that i choice ignore you , and that is very different.  Behavior begets behavior , and I will not go down to your level, otherwise I would be against my principles and my personal formation .

What is not good to you could be precious to others ;)
So we could agree for sure that is better we just  Ignore each other so common sense prevails in this thread because others persons , not  blame, for our behavior.
follow you path and i follow mine .


Have a nice day
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 03, 2017, 07:28:03 PM
Nelson
There is another Elephant in the room ,We also Know if Milehigh could explain
this MEI behavior ,He already would have .

And to be perfectly Clear
No one is claiming OU ,there are things happening which show OU with the test equipment, and present test protocol's.

Getting this to loop may be the only way to show true OU
and for all we know
that may indeed be what you are trying to show in your Vid .

But Miles does have a point.. from his perspective ,we have found issues in the past with Devices not showing increase  input power as loads were attached. and the error's were found [groundloops isolation of equipment unknown Couplings  ETC ETC.

this claim however ...is addressing all possible issues [prior mistakes]
who knows... maybe Miles will even learn from this one ...meanwhile he sits on the Elephant
and Geers us on...
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 03, 2017, 07:32:03 PM

I am very concern'd that you will be hacked to the end here..

Hi Acca i already suffer several attacks to my firewall system on last weeks in German and even in Portugal  , the problem is that most people  don't know that i'm a specialist in security unix systems ;) so no problem  i will deal with that :) and  most important points are stored in a safe  way "My brain"
But thanks by your concern ;) 

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 03, 2017, 07:41:54 PM
Nelson
There is another Elephant in the room ,We also Know if Milehigh could explain
this MEI behavior ,He already would have .

And to be perfectly Clear
No one is claiming OU ,there are things happening which show OU with the test equipment, and present test protocol's.

Getting this to loop may be the only way to show true OU
and for all we know
that may indeed be what you are trying to show in your Vid .

But Miles does have a point.. from his perspective ,we have found issues in the past with Devices not showing increase  input power as loads were attached. and the error's were found [groundloops isolation of equipment unknown Couplings  ETC ETC.

this claim however ...is addressing all possible issues [prior mistakes]
who knows... maybe Miles will even learn from this one ...meanwhile he sits on the Elephant
and Geers us on...

ramset , totally understood ;)  people is owner of their own head and thoughts  and i respect that .  and other persons should do the same, just that .

Have a nice day




Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on May 03, 2017, 09:30:57 PM

My post was removed completely almost immediately....his is still there after 30min....double standards.....

Big difference in language used as well,between him and you.

You may tell me to kiss my ass all you like-or tell me what you have told everyone else,and that is, nothing much at all.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on May 03, 2017, 09:49:13 PM

ok.....kiss my ass!

Lol-thats better.

BTW
you took my comment the wrong way.
It was suppose to be a thumbs up for you-not an insult.

Anyway-such is life.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: picowatt on May 04, 2017, 12:10:23 AM
So is it real or is it just one of millions of patents that were never used in the real world and the only reason it is discussed is because Tesla's name is on it?


MH,

Of course it was "real".  Consider the fact that Tesla was having to use brine filled wine bottles in metal tubs of brine to make his capacitors (as per his Colorado Springs Notes).  He spent a lot of time quantifying the characteristics of different wine bottles versus brine levels, capacitance, and breakdown voltage with respect to their ues in his brine solution/wine bottle capacitors (I believe he liked the dome bottom bottles best, if memory serves).

Now imagine you are Tesla and you just figured out how to make a given inductance have an intrinsically greater distributed capacitance.  This great discovery could eliminate a lot of wine bottles, brine tubs, lossy wine bottle inter-connecting cabling and more than likely greatly improved the overall Q of his system.

For those reasons alone it was a great discovery at the time.  As for any additional "magic" some would wish to assign, who knows?  But, sometimes a really good cigar is just a really good cigar...

PW
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on May 04, 2017, 12:38:54 AM
PW:

How nice to see you back!  I have no doubt it was "real."  But to use English parlance, was it "real real?"  Was it used in an application or applications in industry or some other area?  Would you agree that the patent language states that it is a series resonance device where the inherent capacitance could be used for power factor correction?

Now, if Tesla had a bunch of big bifilar coils made in various shapes and sizes to do research in his lab, I suppose that you could call that a very very narrow niche application.  So less requirements for brine-filled wine bottles in tubs and all that stuff.

Did you know that the Microsoft Kin product lasted only 48 days on the open market?  lol  They spent a billion dollars on it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Kin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Kin)

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: padova on May 04, 2017, 01:41:52 AM
You "Mile" from the sky or whatever you call yourself, please go away from this thread,
I'm not very much interested whit TBPC they are difficult to wind and they have weird properties,
but I'd like from time to time to see what is going on, and what is happening,
You dude are an obstacle, go away, find some school, educate yourself while you still can.
Stop  abusing this tread and Tesla's legacy and everyone else here.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Dog-One on May 04, 2017, 02:08:35 AM
Stop  abusing this tread and Tesla's legacy and everyone else here.

Speaking of Tesla's legacy.  This is quite a read.  Mr. Tesla even predicted his own
departure three months in advance.  Let's see MH do that...
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 04, 2017, 02:15:51 AM
opportunity to help !!

here we have an experimenter who has been wrestling with a Junkie scope [no math function]

some of us would like to fix this problem and get TinMan a good scope to work with Asap

he won't like this [at all]

but he needs a scope and some of us need to give back for all his hard work
over the years.

anyone willing to help ,please PM me.

thanks

Chet
PS
@DOG
you had mentioned a scope which you thought "a good deal" ?
also moderators can remove this post and others in the AM

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Dog-One on May 04, 2017, 02:24:38 AM
@DOG
you had mentioned a scope which you thought "a good deal" ?
also moderators can remove this post and others in the AM

I mentioned a good DVM (https://www.picotest.com/products_M3510A.html) so Brad would know the exact values of his CSRs and such.

For a scope, his Atten is basically the same as my Siglent, so I'm open to suggestions in this
area too.  My scope will do quite a bit and in most cases is more than I need, but occasionally
something comes up that I can't do, like doing measurements on a math trace.  That and just
having a nice set of differential probes would take care of any measuring I can foresee.

My vote is this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slBXLf4YKtA).
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on May 04, 2017, 02:39:16 AM
You "Mile" from the sky or whatever you call yourself, please go away from this thread,
I'm not very much interested whit TBPC they are difficult to wind and they have weird properties,
but I'd like from time to time to see what is going on, and what is happening,
You dude are an obstacle, go away, find some school, educate yourself while you still can.
Stop  abusing this tread and Tesla's legacy and everyone else here.

If Nelson doesn't attack me for a sixth or seventh time then there will be no issue.  Do you get it?  I am not "abusing" Tesla's legacy.  We are just trying to talk about one of his patents to see if it is useful or not useful.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 04, 2017, 03:15:41 AM
Mh
I can't believe you just said Nelson and Attacks  in the same breathe

he is one of the nicest fellows ,\
apparently you don't perceive your taunts as taunts

"the sooner this is over the better"
"nothing to see hear this is silly [Pancake coils"
they don't even know what they're saying !!
Its good for the minnions to Exercise ...so I tolerate them and their childish endeavors...
Nelson needs help...Nelson this ...Nelson That

Naahh ...sell your silly Don Quixote "he's attacking me six or seven times " stuff somewhere else

your readers have eyes and can go back and read your Nelson Attacks  :o

Yeesh
its actually funny to write that...

he goes out of his way to be kind ,and most of his comments towards you are in response to dismissive comments from you , about what adults are doing here with their time and money ?

Moderators please remove this post too [as time permits







Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on May 04, 2017, 03:25:09 AM
Chet you can go tilt your hat at big pancake coils.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on May 04, 2017, 03:34:25 AM
MileHigh,

You and I have always had mutual respect for one another even when we disagreed.  But I have to say I am disappointed that you have taken such a hard stance against some guys that are trying to investigate an anomaly.  Logic says they will probably find some errors or whatever that will explain the anomaly.  But why not let them have some fun and do what they like to do.  Your constant negative comments have gotten very tiresome for anyone trying to follow this thread.  Please just relax and let the show go on.  When all is said and done you can then say "I told you so" or maybe not.

I also have to agree with Chet I have not seen Nelson attacking anyone.  He has only tried to defend himself.  I don't necessarily agree with all his ideas but I see no reason to not give him some slack while he pursues his ideas.

Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Vortex1 on May 04, 2017, 03:45:32 AM
Would this test method be of any value? It allows current sensing in the primary ground leg and should eliminate the normal heavy ground loop of the SG.

 A suitable wideband isolation transformer for L3, L4 can be made on a small ferrite core, have very few turns at these frequencies and can be designed to have very low coupling capacitance.

We don't have to care about the losses in the wideband isolation transformer because we are measuring on the output of this transformer which is measured input to the DUT. A well designed transformer will adequately reflect the generator impedance or turns ratio can be adjusted to provide a proper impedance match to the DUT (which Vasik suggested could be useful).

 It allows sensing input current on the input side, ground referenced, and allows noting coupling capacitance and power leakage to ground through the TBF on the output side sense resistor or that resistor can be eliminated so that you can make a possibly more accurate measurement of output power on the right hand side, as well as input power on the left.

IOW R2 and probe 4 are not really needed with this method. The bottom of the winding on the right can go directly to ground. (ver2)

All scope probes can be star grounded at the schematic ground point.

I'm sure partzman (or someone) has probably tried this and I missed it. If of no value, disregard.

Regards
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on May 04, 2017, 04:11:07 AM
Carroll:

Read this:

Quote
Do you think people are stupid that not understand what is a transformer and a coil  ? Or you think you are really more cleaver than others  ?
Make something  useful instead of simple create noise, because until now you not add nothing practical and positive to this thread with such behavior.
Do you think you are help anyone at moment ?  To me seems not

Are you saying that there is nothing there?  I count six personal put-downs in that quote.  Don't you?  And that's just a snippet of his first attack posting today.

Here is the truth:  I am saying, "Is the Tesla bifilar pancake coil of any use?"  And that upsets people and they attack me personally.  Because I speak from an alternative viewpoint, people don't give a rat's ass if I am attacked.  If the roles were reversed and I came on like a "bouncer" like Nelson then everybody would be freaking out.  It's a double-standard and that's unacceptable.

At least three or four times I had to post to Nelson, "No more ad hominem attacks."   Then after that he attacked me again, and then again today.   Here is the psychology, "I don't like what that guy is saying so I am going to make postings that demean and degrade him personally."   You can find probably at least 50 examples from Nelson of comments similar to the six that you see quoted above.  He is trying to play the "big man" and "act as the leader of the tribe" thinking that people are going to be impressed by his ignorant uncouth behaviour.

I am not the issue, and that's the real truth.  It's takes character to recognize this and decouple yourself from the whole Tesla fandom thing.  If I make a technical point, I don't expect to be attacked personally, and I am not going to be attacked personally.  If some people reading had the character and courage to tell Nelson to stop, he would probably stop right away.

Quote
But I have to say I am disappointed that you have taken such a hard stance against some guys that are trying to investigate an anomaly.

I am not taking any stance against anybody trying to investigate an anomaly.  I am assuming that you are referring to Partzman's transformer setup.  I have no clue what you are talking about.  Beyond that, I am just asking some frank questions about the Tesla bifilar pancake coil because they are worth asking.  Yes, it's politically incorrect, but people need to see both sides of a situation and deal with reality.  There are still no answers about the pancake coil.

As far as giving Nelson some slack, I am assuming that you are talking about my comments on his videos.  Look, I am just telling him the truth.  Why does knowledge advancement progress like a glacier on the forums?  It's because very often people won't speak honestly about what they see other people are doing on the bench.  It's always, "That's really cool man."  That's gets you nowhere fast.  There is nothing wrong with simple straightforward comments.  A pair of pancake coils face-to-face make for a lousy air-core transformer compared to doing it conventionally.  That is fact, and people should not get hurt egos for discussing facts.  And if they get hurt egos just the same, they should not turn around and attack you personally over technical comments.

I am not here to bash anyone, and likewise I am not here to be bashed.  And I am certainly not here to be personally bashed when i make technical comments.

There is a temptation to say nasty ugly things about people personally when they make technical comments that upset your beliefs or point of view.  It's like a sickness, and it has to stop.  Argue the technical points and stop attacking people personally.  Every person should have the strength of character and the personal integrity and the self-respect to behave properly.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on May 04, 2017, 04:25:06 AM
Would this test method be of any value? It allows current sensing in the primary ground leg and should eliminate the normal heavy ground loop of the SG.

 A suitable wideband isolation transformer for L3, L4 can be made on a small ferrite core, have very few turns at these frequencies and can be designed to have very low coupling capacitance.

 It allows sensing input current on the input side, ground referenced, and allows noting coupling capacitance and power to ground through the TBF on the output side sense resistor or that resistor can be eliminated so that you can make a possibly more accurate measurement of output power on the right hand side, as well as input power on the left.

IOW R2 and probe 4 are not really needed with this method. The bottom of the winding on the right can go directly to ground. (ver2)

All scope probes can be star grounded at the schematic ground point.

I'm sure partzman (or someone) has probably tried this and I missed it. If of no value, disregard.

Regards

ION,

Your expertise is shining through.  I think it's a great idea to get rid of the ungainly big scope ground and have a very localized ground. The star for the grounds is also great, a classic!  I think that could indeed make for improvements in the setup.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Vortex1 on May 04, 2017, 05:04:32 AM
ION,

Your expertise is shining through.  I think it's a great idea to get rid of the ungainly big scope ground and have a very localized ground. The star for the grounds is also great, a classic!  I think that could indeed make for improvements in the setup.

MileHigh

Thanks MH, this is just the common sense stuff you try out when attempting to vet a tricky measurement problem. I'm sure partzman and I probably discussed something like it a while back on the phone. I just see trying to measure input power on the output side as fraught with problems, but I could be wrong.

 A lot of math capability in the newer scopes allows for all kinds of tricky probe connections, but sometimes it's good to take a step back to what we had to do back in the days when we didn't have that equipment, as a double check.

I feel this device should be tested many ways and if the claim is more out than in, COP>1, then I proposed looping the device with nothing more than a low loss phase correction network since the input and output frequencies are identical. See here:

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3445.msg61495#msg61495 (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3445.msg61495#msg61495)

The rationale is: any 4 terminal transformer or other black box that is claimed to have a real power gain
by virtue of some magical construction or heretofore unknown principle can be looped very simply as a proof of principle, especially if the input and output are the same frequency as in this particular device. If there are slight phase differences, this can be remedied with a low loss phase correction network. If the input and output impedance differs, this can be remedied with a low loss auto transformer.

By virtue of regeneration, the problem then will become one of limiting and regulating loop feedback so that a runaway condition and meltdown does not occur.

I don't think we have to worry about that yet.  ;)

Kind Regards
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 04, 2017, 05:25:14 AM
Milehigh's post which Nelson responded to .
Miles
Quote
Partzman's testing and attempts at replication are interesting and a worthwhile exercise.  However, this is at best indirectly related to the bifilar pancake coil.  Just look at title of his schematic, "Bifilar Pancake Transformer."  It's not a coil, it's a transformer.  I still encourage this discussion on this thread.

The transformer discussion has pretty much hijacked the real purpose of this thread.  I was leaving it up to the contributors to continue the discussion about the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil.  What unique purpose or purposes does it serve?  What is special about it and what can you do with it?  What practical applications are there for it that specifically require a Tesla series bifilar pancake coil?

So is it real or is it just one of millions of patents that were never used in the real world and the only reason it is discussed is because Tesla's name is on it?

The field is wide open and I hope we hear more than crickets chirping.

end quote
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Miles

Its good you speak for EVo and the purpose of his thread  :o
the fact that you cannot see the ongoing work being done around the Pancake coils here boggles the mind,
there are ten guys working on Partzmans MEI pancake coil work
and no its not a replication
its his work

and EVO wants it in his thread as well as Nelson's contributions
they are hoping to find out whats special about the pancake coil??



and Nelson says ?

quote
Do you think people are stupid that not understand what is a transformer and a coil  ? Or you think you are really more cleaver than others  ?
Make something  useful instead of simple create noise, because until now you not add nothing practical and positive to this thread with such behavior.
Do you think you are help anyone at moment ?  To me seems not
end quote

and this you call an attack ,one of six or seven such attacks ??

you have got to be kidding??

your post above is much more of an attack, an attack on this thread and its true intent
to find out whats special about Bifilar pancake coils

you try to move the goal posts or tell us what we should really be discussing here ??
the true intent of Evo's thread??
Yeesh



Moderator you can remove this post too






Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on May 04, 2017, 05:46:33 AM
Chet:

Evo left this thread for good.  He stated this.  It became a pick-up thread for a discussion of the bifilar pancake coil.  It boggles my mind that you seem to have comprehension issues about how I view Partzman's testing.

Now you try this on for size:

Chet:

Do you think people are stupid Chet and they don't understand what is being said in this thread?  Do you really think that you are smarter than everybody else?  Are you just a smart-ass?  Make something useful of yourself instead of just creating useless noise, Chet.  You haven't brought a single positive or practical thing to this thread up to this point with your behaviour.  Do you really think you are helping anybody around here Chet?  I don't think you are, not one bit.

I pity you man, you are a sad sad guy with problems, Chet.  Really really bad.

Do you want to hear stuff like that a few times a week?  Do you want to hear that as a follow-up when you make a post?

What I said in my previous posting to Carroll about this issue is absolutely real, and your attempts to dismiss it are a fail.

And there is not a single damn thing wrong with that posting of mine.  It doesn't attack anybody personally, does it?  Or are we playing melting snowflakes now?  All that I say is "Let's not forget to discuss the Tesla bifilar pancake coil and I encourage discussing Partzman's transformer also."  You aren't seeing that?  What the hell?  There is no room for a negative spin on that at all, unless you succumb to the urge to make personal attacks.  And that gratuitous follow-up personal attack posting from Nelson is unacceptable
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 04, 2017, 05:53:51 AM
I'll tell you whats a fail
your ability to pay attention

Pancake coils are being discussed here
the thread is now a "pickup"?? sorry we didn't get your memo  :o
 
what is actually going on here
is your making so much noise and engaging so much negative nonsense talk that most of the experimenters have left this topic

you hunt for fights even when your point is under active investigation
whats so special about pancake coils??

your work here speaks for itself
the results are self evident

and I agree with Carroll
he can read too...



moderator
please remove this too

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on May 04, 2017, 05:57:38 AM
I stand by what I say, period.

Apparently there is no discussion of the Tesla pancake coil because nobody has anything new to say.

You need to go back to Club Med for refresher training.  You are noise on this thread.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Vortex1 on May 04, 2017, 05:58:35 AM
Maybe a little clarification is needed:

The Tesla patent 512340 is titled: Coil for Electromagnets

It has many years later acquired the terms "pancake coil" or "bifilar pancake coil"

These terms are not used in the patent.

While this thread and the thread at OUR.com are respectively:

"The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency"

and

Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3445.msg61594;topicseen#msg61594)

In actuality the testing of late in both threads is for a "transformer" with one input leg floating. While it shares similarities in construction, it is wired differently than the Tesla device as the continuous connection is broken, changing it from a singular "coil"
to a pair of "coils" or coupled inductors, otherwise known as a "transformer".

In essence it being now tested as a three terminal device unlike the Tesla patent, yet still may retain some of the supposed virtues of high interwinding capacitance and maximum voltage differences between turns, and neutralization of self inductance, although how effective those virtues were are yet to be determined due to the breaking of the connection, thus separating the singular "coil" into two "coils" that are now coupled capacitively and inductively,
 therefore a "transformer".

One might try to argue that it is not a transformer since it does not have four connections, however the floating input leg is capacitively coupled to the secondary, so it is sort of an "autotransformer" which by definition has a minimum of three connections.

cheeky enough?  :D

Regards

P.S. Has anyone ever had real Vermont AAA Maple Syrup with theirs?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 04, 2017, 06:06:10 AM
MileHigh
quote
Apparently there is no discussion of the Tesla pancake coil because nobody has anything new to say.
end quote

what does that mean?

in a thread where pancake coils and related experiments are all that is being discussed ?

are you awake or sleeping ??

you can't see anything going on here?
one of the biggest investigations here in a long time, and you see nobody working with or discussing pancake coils?

people coming out of the woodwork to discuss and work on Pancake coils??





Okey Dokey then...
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on May 04, 2017, 06:18:05 AM
In actuality the testing of late in both threads is for a "transformer" with one input leg floating. While it shares similarities in construction, it is wired differently than the Tesla device as the continuous connection is broken, changing it from a singular "coil"
to a pair of "coils" or coupled inductors, otherwise known as a "transformer".

In essence it being now tested as a three terminal device unlike the Tesla patent, yet still may retain some of the supposed virtues of high interwinding capacitance and maximum voltage differences between turns, and neutralization of self inductance, although how effective those virtues were are yet to be determined due to the breaking of the connection, thus separating the singular "coil" into two "coils" that are now coupled capacitively and inductively,
 therefore a "transformer".
 

Exactly and I also draw a distinction between the two-terminal Tesla bifilar coil and the three-terminal transformer and invite discussion on both topics and I think this might be flying over Chet's head.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on May 04, 2017, 06:19:08 AM
From Cifta to MH

"Your constant negative comments have gotten very tiresome for anyone trying to follow this thread."


From Padova to MH

"You dude are an obstacle, go away, find some school, educate yourself while you still can.
Stop  abusing this tread and Tesla's legacy and everyone else here."

From Chet to MH

"attempting to make definitive statements [your attempts] about this path of investigation
 is completely premature .

and I agree with Nelson , your condescending "shut up " is yet another example or your poor behavior, and weak social skills."



From Acca

"Nelson thanks for your posts I have been reading about you formulations and Tesla flat coil, please post here as I have excluded M.h. from all my  views .. He is just angry.."


From Nelson to MH

"You don't have authority or even moral to say to other people shut up . Just respect other people if you want be respected . You are the worst person to talk about respect simple because you not respect most of people  ."

"I hope that the moderators of this forum are consistent with what they have done in similar situations with other people that use such language."




It seems MH is pretty unpopular here.  Ill send this post to Stefan and see what he can do....

Im tired of all the negativity also. He tries to degrade the progress and talks of crickets, well knowing that a lot more of what is going on is at OUR, of which he has been banned from for belittling John Bedini. Those guys probably prefer the Quality Time they are afforded there. ;) So he comes here with a modified schematic showing his manual drawings of resistor placement, probably done in Microsoft Paint, as if it were the answer to everyone's problem in measurements. Well he was shut down on that. Twice.  Sad. And explains that he doesnt know what he is talking about here soo...Its not helping in the least.

Nelson wrote a post a few pages back to Mh relating to Mhs chatter here and MH didnt like it. Well there are many here that would agree with Nelson in what he wrote, of which some and or most of what Nelson wrote brings about remembrances of of posts in the past about MH. Oh the good ole days ::)

If anyone else would like to chime in on whether they would or would not care to see MH post here any longer, please post your views. Ill give it 24 hours to see how the majority rules. ;) Ill also make a new poll on this very subject.  The old poll has resulted in "yes" most people here believe that there is more to see here and that they also believe some of these things are hidden from us.

40% believe there are new things to learn
0%  believe there is nothing new to learn
48% believe there are things being hidden from us
0%  didnt care
3% thought the questions were stupid

On with the 24hour marathon poll

Mags
   
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 04, 2017, 06:23:40 AM
I think what is going on here is Miles hates the fact that we're even discussing this, and even more so that we're investigating a claim from Nelson

a claim which seems to have Much merit
pancake coils are special ,and now we get a chance to investigate Partzman's MEI work

 and then MH apparently took over the thread which he said was fair game
because Evo left here due to bad behavior and disrespect of his topic

I only stepped in because he was calling Nelson an attacker ,intimating he was in some violation of TOS

sad stuff to read tho [moderatings and such








Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on May 04, 2017, 06:54:20 AM
Chet, you are really awful to read now.  Now it's another vendetta.  You are now worse than Nelson.  I just want to be able to post technical stuff without being attacked and now you are leading the charge.  You know what I say, bow your head in shame.  You have filled up this thread with nonsense for the past few hours.

Quote
I think what is going on here is Miles hates the fact that we're even discussing this, and even more so that we're investigating a claim from Nelson

You are off your rocker.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 04, 2017, 07:05:15 AM
actually
I was trying to understand how you thought you could take over a thread which EVo started
and then you said he left due to poor behavior here[no respect]
and you decided you would take it over

you never told anybody you were doing this and here we are trying to replicate Nelson's claim [which has since become Partzmans MEI work]
which EVO IS VERY INTERESTED IN
and you attack the topic with distractive nonsensical posts and  "crickets"

we did not know you were shutting Nelson Up due to your own agenda

unfortunately there is hardly anyone working here in this thread due to your Negative attitude and constant berating of the topic

whats special about pancake coils??
we're trying to find out??

seems you are attacking Nelson
several persons have mentioned this here tonight
your perspective is skewed towards your own agenda

you seem very upset...
 that he should dare to respond to your attacks on his claim ??

Nelson
Quote
"there is something special about pancake coils"

you have threatened violent acts on him, you have used Vulgarity and street talk and you also used ethnic Slurs against him



hold your head in shame
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on May 04, 2017, 07:11:46 AM
I stand by what I say, period.

Apparently there is no discussion of the Tesla pancake coil because nobody has anything new to say.

You need to go back to Club Med for refresher training.  You are noise on this thread.

Have you not been reading what i have been posting for the last week,or the videos i have been posting as well?

While i have dabbled in partsmans circuit,i have been doing most of my work on the BPC.
If you have a good look at partsman circuit,you will see that it is the same as mine,but where as the R2 resistor is removed from the L1 end,and placed across the L2 coil-that is the only difference

Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on May 04, 2017, 07:16:10 AM
Maybe a little clarification is needed:

The Tesla patent 512340 is titled: Coil for Electromagnets

It has many years later acquired the terms "pancake coil" or "bifilar pancake coil"

These terms are not used in the patent.

While this thread and the thread at OUR.com are respectively:

"The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency"

and

Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3445.msg61594;topicseen#msg61594)

In actuality the testing of late in both threads is for a "transformer" with one input leg floating. While it shares similarities in construction, it is wired differently than the Tesla device as the continuous connection is broken, changing it from a singular "coil"
to a pair of "coils" or coupled inductors, otherwise known as a "transformer".

In essence it being now tested as a three terminal device unlike the Tesla patent, yet still may retain some of the supposed virtues of high interwinding capacitance and maximum voltage differences between turns, and neutralization of self inductance, although how effective those virtues were are yet to be determined due to the breaking of the connection, thus separating the singular "coil" into two "coils" that are now coupled capacitively and inductively,
 therefore a "transformer".

One might try to argue that it is not a transformer since it does not have four connections, however the floating input leg is capacitively coupled to the secondary, so it is sort of an "autotransformer" which by definition has a minimum of three connections.

cheeky enough?  :D

Regards

P.S. Has anyone ever had real Vermont AAA Maple Syrup with theirs?

Well I can say that I think Tesla had drawn up the coil in pancake style more to better understand the connections between the 2 windings and the relationship between the 2 windings capacitance, as he said the coils could be wound in any styles known for the same results.  Maybe the things he declared and claimed were to cover his ownership to the use of the ability described, without actually divulging the a real practical use. Its possible and Im sure done many times before. Just like many patents when we look at them and try to build them and we dont get positive results, it is very likely they are covering their butts on the brunt of the idea while leaving out what really makes it special. And its probably important to do so in some cases where like today, some in China may see it and make copies and dont care. Like the Iphone back when, etc.  If I remember the Iphone fakes were not as special as the real deal. ;)

On the 3 legged transformer, has anyone tried to reverse the end of the pri coil to see if there is a difference in operation? That may bring out whether it is inductive, or not and just capacitance between the pri and sec.

Anyway I think its good to run this thing through the ringer in any way or fashion to see what may come of it. There is more to do.

Mags

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on May 04, 2017, 07:21:37 AM
Have you not been reading what i have been posting for the last week,or the videos i have been posting as well?

Brad

You are mainly investigating Partzman's transformer, right?  I am talking about an investigation into the coil itself.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on May 04, 2017, 07:34:46 AM
You are mainly investigating Partzman's transformer, right?  I am talking about an investigation into the coil itself.

I added to my previouse post.

I have been working mainly on the BPC,and quite a bit.

Im at work ATM, so will post more detail for you when i get home.

BTW-the pole is looking good for you MH.

Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on May 04, 2017, 07:43:05 AM
Mags said,
Quote
Well I can say that I think Tesla had drawn up the coil in pancake style more to better understand the connections between the 2 windings and the relationship between the 2 windings capacitance, as he said the coils could be wound in any styles known for the same results. (snip)

Yes, I think so too. People often quote Tesla's patent #512340 and yet they completely ignore the _facts_ that Tesla acknowledged that flat coils are not new, that he said that "any" and "every" coil can be made to have reactance cancellation, and that Tesla himself rarely if ever actually used the bifilar series-connected winding scheme in later patents and projects.

Now we have comparison reports from several sources, even some who formerly claimed unique properties, that there is no difference when the Tesla Bifilar Flat winding compared to flat monofilar coils in DC resistance, inductance, AC magnetic field, DC magnetic field, and pulsed DC magnetic fields. The _only_ "special" property of the Tesla Bifilar winding, whether in flat or solenoidal coils, is that of reduced resonant frequency due to the increased interturn capacitance of a _correctly wound_ TBF coil. Concomitant with this is the increased energy storage on a cycle-by-cycle basis of the TBF winding. However in any practical coil this increased energy storage (and release, per cycle!) is much smaller than the numbers Tesla used as an extreme example in his patent. 

The problems with "experiments" (which are really demonstrations and not true experiments) that purport to show some superiority of the flat coil, whether serially connected bifilar or not, is that they do not perform proper comparisons with, say, solenoidal coils, cored coils, etc. so _causality_ cannot be assigned to the "flat" or "TBF" or other properties that are alleged to be responsible for any demonstrated effects.


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Dog-One on May 04, 2017, 07:53:18 AM
Well I don't know about the rest of you all, but I'm going to make a self-running
electrical generator come hell or high water.      8)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on May 04, 2017, 07:54:28 AM
you have threatened violent acts on him, you have used Vulgarity and street talk and you also used ethnic Slurs against him

lol  Saying someone is "Latin" is an "ethnic slur?"  There are lurkers that must be laughing out loud and it just shows how much you have completely lost it.  It's embarrassing to read you.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 04, 2017, 07:55:56 AM
Well
Nelson made a claim ,thats what started this investigation
his claim relates to Pancake coils, he says there special.

MileHigh will now not allow this to be presented in a transformer investigation, he says that's not applicable to his question

If The Pancake coils cause a black hole to open up ...
if the word Transformer is used [or applied]

No good
gotta be just the coil or he's crying foul

yes that is actually where this has gone ....

whether or not other coils will work[or nothing works]


he has reworded his claim to remove Partzmans work from the definition [Nelsons too I suppose]

Whats so special about Pancake coils?

just sitting there on the table...
Just the coils??
HUH??

very confusing indeed sort of like the pole above with 5 members voting and ten votes cast

 ;D
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on May 04, 2017, 08:02:02 AM
I think what is going on here is Miles hates the fact that we're even discussing this, and even more so that we're investigating a claim from Nelson

a claim which seems to have Much merit
pancake coils are special ,and now we get a chance to investigate Partzman's MEI work

 and then MH apparently took over the thread which he said was fair game
because Evo left here due to bad behavior and disrespect of his topic

I only stepped in because he was calling Nelson an attacker ,intimating he was in some violation of TOS

sad stuff to read tho [moderatings and such

I will just comment on this one to remind people that I first reproduced Partzman's observations of COP>1 _measurements_
using a Bifilar _solenoid_ coil
(or if you prefer, air core transformer) , not a "special" pancake coil.

So... we are back to the original problem posed by MH. This is a legitimate and important question and should be a seed for discussion, not personal attacks and innuendo. What is "special" about the Tesla Bifilar-wound, serially connected pancake coil? Other than its lower resonant frequency and energy storage, both due to increased interturn capacitance in a correctly constructed coil.... which also apply to solenoidal coils ... to my knowledge nothing "special" has been conclusively shown, even by Nelson's demonstrations. (Let's not forget that in Tesla's time "high frequency" applied to anything much over 1 MHz and it was strongly to his advantage to be able to reduce the required frequency in his experiments.)

Several myths have been soundly debunked along the way, such as the howler of TheOldScientist's still unretracted video claiming half the DC resistance of the TBF winding compared to monofilar winding with the same total length of wire, as well as various claims from others about inductance,  AC and DC and pulsed DC magnetic fields and so on. 

This is not to say that flat coils have no advantages in _any_ cases. Clearly a flat coil makes for a better induction cooking hob. There are probably many other applications where a flat coil's magnetic field distribution may be advantageous for particular applications -- perhaps even for junkyard scrap-lifting or steelyard plate-lifting electromagnets. This is a matter of geometry, not electrical "magic".

If you want to see some real "magic" coils, take apart an old CRT monitor sometime. The horizontal deflection yoke coils put the lie to claims that "conventional science" doesn't understand magnetic fields and how to produce and manipulate them to achieve precise results.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Dog-One on May 04, 2017, 08:02:09 AM
just sitting there on the table...
Just the coils??
HUH??

I'm not showing the rest.  You can all see it when it's well past turning back to the
good ol' days.

As for MH...

"Eagles listen not to the chirping of sparrows."
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 04, 2017, 08:09:24 AM
Good night Ya'll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on May 04, 2017, 08:11:39 AM


very confusing indeed sort of like the pole above with 5 members voting and ten votes cast

 ;D

I allowed 2 choices per voter so they can express beyond just one choice, so it looks like some are choosing that ability.  I dont think it means you can vote 2 times for the same choice of answer.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on May 04, 2017, 08:59:34 AM
Well I don't know about the rest of you all, but I'm going to make a self-running
electrical generator come hell or high water.      8)

Good for you. It's too bad though, that the wire you have selected is plastic-insulated so that the conductors will be so far apart that any distributed capacitance will be small, and the coil itself will be relatively large for the length of wire it has in it, which also reduces its self-inductance.

To maximize distributed capacitance and self inductance the conductors need to be as close together as possible, hence the use of enamelled magnet wire is preferred if maximizing those parameters is important. As I believe it is, to lower the frequencies of interest and to make any "special" effects strong enough to rise above the noise floor.

YMMV of course, so good luck and don't forget to report your positive _and negative_ results, if any.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on May 04, 2017, 09:48:17 AM
Good for you. It's too bad though, that the wire you have selected is plastic-insulated so that the conductors will be so far apart that any distributed capacitance will be small, and the coil itself will be relatively large for the length of wire it has in it, which also reduces its self-inductance.

To maximize distributed capacitance and self inductance the conductors need to be as close together as possible, hence the use of enamelled magnet wire is preferred if maximizing those parameters is important. As I believe it is, to lower the frequencies of interest and to make any "special" effects strong enough to rise above the noise floor.

YMMV of course, so good luck and don't forget to report your positive _and negative_ results, if any.

If he takes 2 rolls, 1 for each winding, then he can parallel the individual wires at the ends and if wound nice and tight, the wire bumps can interlock bringing more conductors in proximity to each other. It will increase capacitance. Would that increase the inductance with more than 1 conductor in parallel like that?

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on May 04, 2017, 10:21:25 AM
Ok,for those that want to know the difference between the BPC circuit i am experimenting with,and Partsman's circuit--see below.

If you take the point 1 of R2,and swing it around,and place it at point 2,you have Partsman's DUT circuit--simple.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on May 04, 2017, 10:45:05 AM
Well first up,i must say i find the !poll! quite demeaning,

Ok,time to be honest.

After reading many pages back on this thread,and also watching things unfold as the thread went on,what i see here is people learning which buttons to push,to get MH all fired up.

Second-it would seem that those that have a problem with MH,are the very same that cannot answer MH's one simple question--what is so special about the BPC ?

As i said many weeks ago,the only thing i have found so far,is that the BPC has a lower resonant  frequency to that of the single wound PC.
Every other thing the BPC show's,is apparent in any other coil arrangement/configuration,in the bifilar winding style--E.G,a standard solenoid coil.

As some of you here would know,MH and myself have had !our! days,but regardless,the respect still stand's. He is one of the few here,that has helped me get to where i am today.

So,sorry to say guy's,but as far as i can see,MHs questions are legitimate,and just because you have now answer as to what makes the BPC so special,dosnt give you the right to go on the offensive,and say MH has no idea what he is talking about.

Yes-i am finding some weird and wonderful things with my BPC setup,but those weird and wonderful things exist in all types of coil,of the bifilar winding type.

So,instead of arguing with one another over whether or not the BPC is special,hit your bench,and find what exactly is special about it.

The truth is,as soon as some see the name Tesla associated with something,it is automatically special--only due to people's mis-understanding about what the actual device was intended for.


Anyway-on with the COP>1 research.


Brad

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on May 04, 2017, 10:58:56 AM
Yep, I totally agree with that , Brad.


On your schematic you left out an important part of the Partzman circuit. I've added it to the diagram below.

It is also important to realize that with ground-isolated FG Black leads and scopes that are "floating", that is without having chassis "ground" connected to Earth ground through the mains cord ground pin, the FG's "black" lead isn't pinned to Ground potential as some schematics might imply. We are using symmetrical AC sine wave stimulation, so the floating "black" FG lead's voltage goes positive and negative wrt the "zero" voltage level, just as the FG's "red" lead does but opposite in phase, instead of being pinned to Earth ground as is the case with more conventional hookups. If the "ground" point is connected to a scope probe reference of a normally grounded scope, this is no longer true and the FG "black" output stays pinned to true Earth ground potential. Except of course if the scope is something like Russ Gries's Tek TDS2024b which has isolated channel references.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on May 04, 2017, 12:03:40 PM
Yep, I totally agree with that , Brad.


On your schematic you left out an important part of the Partzman circuit. I've added it to the diagram below.

It is also important to realize that with ground-isolated FG Black leads and scopes that are "floating", that is without having chassis "ground" connected to Earth ground through the mains cord ground pin, the FG's "black" lead isn't pinned to Ground potential as some schematics might imply. We are using symmetrical AC sine wave stimulation, so the floating "black" FG lead's voltage goes positive and negative wrt the "zero" voltage level, just as the FG's "red" lead does but opposite in phase, instead of being pinned to Earth ground as is the case with more conventional hookups. If the "ground" point is connected to a scope probe reference of a normally grounded scope, this is no longer true and the FG "black" output stays pinned to true Earth ground potential. Except of course if the scope is something like Russ Gries's Tek TDS2024b which has isolated channel references.

Ah yes-sorry,forgot that in both actually.
Have amended it once again.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 04, 2017, 12:45:15 PM
Persons like MH sometimes forget what is education and respect to the next ,  and their behavior is a probe of what i say .
Whoever is not with him is against him.
There is a proverb that says people like him are like  "dogs that do not know the owner" because bites even their owner and friends .

Since first begin seems he never have any intention to help anyone but just refute some particular hate from some points and some particular persons like me.

We can also see that it seems that I was not the only one, that he refers  as "AGRESSOR" to his integrity,  Because in the course of this thread other people were accused of the same by MH .

This thread have already 98 pages but i will remember their very very  first post in this thread after i  answer Evostars:


"I looked at your three clips and you seem like a very nice person and you have lots of enthusiasm.  For you there is a base issue related to your investigations.  Do you try to pursue learning about conventional electronics, or do you ignore conventional electronics and only pursue learning about so-called "alternative" electronics?  Or do you try to pursue a mixture of the two?  That's your choice to make.

What I am noticing is that this forum is not a good learning environment and if you want to learn about conventional electronics you are probably going to have to pursue that path by yourself or with other people.  I am quite certain that many people that watched your clips that like "alternative" electronics but also have a reasonable understanding of conventional electronics were not helping you when they could have helped you.  They are not sharing good information with you because doing so would make them feel uncomfortable for some strange reason.

I am just going to make some comments from watching your clips the other night.

For starters, there is no such thing as single-wire energy transmission.  There is always an "invisible" AC-coupling to the ground plane for both your device under test and your signal source.  That's why you can get the capacitor to charge with one wire in your tests.  Why does the voltage get higher when you put your fingers on the capacitors?  The answer is that your fingers and body provide a more robust (higher capacitance) signal path to the ground plane allowing the AC signal source to add larger puffs of charge to the capacitor.  Larger pumping puffs of charge into the capacitor means that the capacitor reaches a higher quiescent voltage where the added puffs of charge are in balance with the reverse current leaking through the diodes.

When you place your two pancake coils together with North-North poles facing each other, how come you can barely observe any repulsion between the two pancake coils even through with your compass you can definitely detect the field for each individual coil?  The answer is based on geometry such that the divergence of the magnetic field produced by each coil in the close proximity of each coil is very low.  Very low divergence equals very low force.  A hypothetical zero divergence in the magnetic field for one, the other, or both coils would give you a zero repulsion force between the coils.

When your pancake coil is truly in a self-resonant mode, then by definition both the electric field between the turns of the coil and the magnetic field around the coil have to be oscillating back and forth.  So your conclusion there about a constant unchanging magnetic field around the exterior of the coil in "self resonance" is incorrect.  Why can you observe an apparent DC magnetic field around the "self resonating" coil with your compass?  It's because your signal driver circuit, even through it is exciting the coil with an AC signal, is presumably also driving the coil with a small DC component such that you can detect the DC field with the compass needle when you move it around the coil.  As a suggestion, you can make a small coil of say 20 turns about the diameter of your thumb and attach that to your scope probe to make an AC magnetic field "sniffer" to check the strength and orientation of the AC magnetic field around the pancake coils.

Resonance of a circuit and the self-resonance of a coil have specific meanings that must be understood and then measured properly to confirm that you are truly observing the phenomenon of resonance.  Just observing a peak voltage reading on your multimeter or on your scope waveform is not an instant "confirmation of resonance."  It will take you some time to develop a skill set to correctly determine when you are observing resonance.  Part of that exercise involves actually identifying the mechanism of the resonance and the components of the resonance.  In other words, about every two minutes in your clips you are proclaiming "resonance."  That is not the case, and these things have to be carefully determined and measured.

Now, some people are going to be upset that I made this posting.  I am trying to suggest to you that if you are interested in electronics and electronics experimentation there is a vast amount of knowledge out there.  It's up to you to determine what path you want to take.  And I am disappointed that many of the people following you that know better are not making any real effort to give you some good and useful information.  Many people have seen the types of things that you are doing dozens of times before.  They only want to throw the usual "alternative" electronics information at you.

I am not here to engage with you or try to teach you.  I just came here to shine some light on your round of experiments with your pancake coils and let you know that there are options.

Good luck in your experiments."


This is deplorable from someone that want help other persons and start in that way , after complaining after about other persons attack him . ..

But everybody deserve a second chance to change their behavior, and i am willing to forget some of the less nice comments in exchange for a more peaceful environment without verbal abuse.
 In this way I suggest that these episodes be put behind the back, in favor of other people who are not to blame for this type of behaviors.

Wish a nice day to everyone and good experiments to everyone include you MH

 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on May 04, 2017, 01:01:57 PM
Well first up,i must say i find the !poll! quite demeaning,

Ok,time to be honest.

After reading many pages back on this thread,and also watching things unfold as the thread went on,what i see here is people learning which buttons to push,to get MH all fired up.

Second-it would seem that those that have a problem with MH,are the very same that cannot answer MH's one simple question--what is so special about the BPC ?

As i said many weeks ago,the only thing i have found so far,is that the BPC has a lower resonant  frequency to that of the single wound PC.
Every other thing the BPC show's,is apparent in any other coil arrangement/configuration,in the bifilar winding style--E.G,a standard solenoid coil.

As some of you here would know,MH and myself have had !our! days,but regardless,the respect still stand's. He is one of the few here,that has helped me get to where i am today.

So,sorry to say guy's,but as far as i can see,MHs questions are legitimate,and just because you have now answer as to what makes the BPC so special,dosnt give you the right to go on the offensive,and say MH has no idea what he is talking about.

Yes-i am finding some weird and wonderful things with my BPC setup,but those weird and wonderful things exist in all types of coil,of the bifilar winding type.

So,instead of arguing with one another over whether or not the BPC is special,hit your bench,and find what exactly is special about it.

The truth is,as soon as some see the name Tesla associated with something,it is automatically special--only due to people's mis-understanding about what the actual device was intended for.


Anyway-on with the COP>1 research.


Brad

I removed the poll. I told myself if someone complains I would take it down, and you have.  Basically the complaint posts that I quoted earlier on him only go a few pages back. So the poll was to see what I or we should do about it if it had shown that we should or not. Im not playing king. Im not the only one that is tired of it.

Sure its fine to say that he has a legit question. How many times does it have to be repeated to any of us beyond this point?   Many readers are here to learn the answer to that question, so they dont have to read it again and again and again, and frankly I HAVE TAKEN NOTE OF THE QUESTION!!  Maybe some do know and are not saying. Well we are here to see if there is, no???. You can take the stand that so far all you have seen is.... Thats fine. But are we done yet???? ???

My previous post had shown quotes of 5 others here about what he posts towards others, and they are not diggin it. Neither am I.  But ya know what? Ill leave him alone. You deal with it. Im not going to reply to him nor touch his posts.  He is your puppy now. ;) Funny how it seems you guys post more at OUR than here. Why is that? I read it and I see zero conflict there. Its nicey nicey .  I understand completely ::) ;)



"So,sorry to say guy's,but as far as i can see,MHs questions are legitimate,and just because you have now answer as to what makes the BPC so special,dosnt give you the right to go on the offensive,and say MH has no idea what he is talking about."

See, you are at the wall and think thats it folks.   Let me ask you. Are you only continuing with this just to solidify the idea that that is all there is as you say above? Just wondering. What of his other questions? I 'think' you were saying earlier that whether you are trying other things like transformer action with various connection schemes, that you are still using bifi coils to do those tests. So is his harping that those test are not on topic legit? Should there be another thread because we are finished with this topic? maybe. But I bet ya, he will be there asking the same questions, that the thread is intended to answer with testing. So again, more pages of that. So Im cool with it all just being laid out here.

Is it fair that he tells Nelson he doesnt know anything about coils or transformers? Do you agree with him???  If he told me that Id have to throw some bricks back also.



"So,instead of arguing with one another over whether or not the BPC is special,hit your bench,and find what exactly is special about it."

Im joining the mhz club soon. Spending good money to be able to do so. I am a builder. I do the do.  And if that is your feelings about it then maybe you should get MH on that roll call before he is telling you that you have your resistors in the wrong place. ;) But, he wont do it. He will just daily ask what is the purpose of this thread beyond resonance of a pancake bifilar coil. And his questions are not even the bulk of what he posts. He will belittle others, oh in the nicest, happy way that can be, of course. ::) I and others do not need to be around all that nonsense in our lives. So what? We should go? ::) I suppose so.  To OUR we all go. Seems like a good option. Then MH can pull off one of his summaries to close the thread. Thats just the way it is.



"The truth is,as soon as some see the name Tesla associated with something,it is automatically special--only due to people's mis-understanding about what the actual device was intended for."

And what is your version of what this coil was intended for? Why would Tesla need coils to go into resonance? See Im not sure that Teslas actual claims(at the bottom end of the description, usually written a few times in a few slightly different ways to cover all bases) covers the intent of just getting a coil to be in resonance without having to add a cap to a normal coil. Otherwise it would have said so in the 'claim'. I believe Tesla, after how many patents, knows what the claim portion of a patent is intended for and I dont think that definition has changed since then.  So far, are you guys saying that your coils operate as the 'claim' is written?
Like if it is at resonance that the bifi coil is able to pass currents(from where) as though the inductance was neutralized, when at resonance the least current passes 'through' from the input!!! Does not make sense. Sorry.  Or help me understand if Im missing something here.


"Anyway-on with the COP>1 research."

But you said back a couple sentences that we now know what makes the coils so special, and Im guessing you are referring to that is the ability to use the coil as an LC without adding a cap to a normal coil.  If thats all there is then how are you getting COP>1?  Still not special beyond its resonant properties?  Doesnt sound right.  ???

He is all yours and anyone with complaints should address them to Brad from here on in. Im only here 'now' to look beyond what is already known from here on in, and that is what you are doing, I think? So please dont imply any finality beyond seeing the coil in resonance like a typical LC when in fact you are finding more every day beyond that question that is continually posed day in and out. ;)

Dont take it badly, Im just expressing my(and a few others here) view on it all. ;)

Mags

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on May 04, 2017, 01:08:11 PM
I am truly sorry this has gone on for so long.  But we all have the freedom to post anything we want until someone stops us.  I believe I have found what may be at the root of the problem with this discussion.  I also may be very wrong.  If so I apologize.  Please read the post above where Nelson quotes MH.  Do you really see anywhere in that post where MH attacks or puts down anyone?  All I see is him offering to help someone to learn more.

When Nelson first started posting here I made a post in support of what he was doing.  He attacked my post and told me I was wrong to post it.  I then realized he did not truly understand what I had posted.  I assume English is not his native language.  This language barrier has I feel contributed in a large part to the problems between MH and Nelson.

I have great respect for MH as I posted earlier.  I do feel he probably should have just dropped his disagreement with Nelson several pages back and just let it go.  To those of us with real electronics training it is obvious Nelson has some things to learn.  That is fine.  We all can still learn some things.  Let's please let all this go and get back to some real research.

Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 04, 2017, 01:24:32 PM
I am truly sorry this has gone on for so long.  But we all have the freedom to post anything we want until someone stops us.  I believe I have found what may be at the root of the problem with this discussion.  I also may be very wrong.  If so I apologize.  Please read the post above where Nelson quotes MH.  Do you really see anywhere in that post where MH attacks or puts down anyone?  All I see is him offering to help someone to learn more.

When Nelson first started posting here I made a post in support of what he was doing.  He attacked my post and told me I was wrong to post it.  I then realized he did not truly understand what I had posted.  I assume English is not his native language.  This language barrier has I feel contributed in a large part to the problems between MH and Nelson.

I have great respect for MH as I posted earlier.  I do feel he probably should have just dropped his disagreement with Nelson several pages back and just let it go.  To those of us with real electronics training it is obvious Nelson has some things to learn.  That is fine.  We all can still learn some things.  Let's please let all this go and get back to some real research.

Respectfully,
Carroll

Carroll did i attacked you ? I really don't consider that a attack tell me where is the misunderstood or even a attack ?
This that you refer :

"Sorry Carrol but i really don't understand what you try say with pseudo science when you talk of ether . In the time that word  is "founded" There was not the same disinformation motivation that exists today or even to sell books, and is unquestionable and undeniable  the contribution by the father of the word aether Sir Oliver Lodge to science , and after used by Nikola Tesla too .
As I mentioned earlier, this forum is free and we all have different opinions, but the contribution of those same people I mentioned is undeniable even when Discredited and censored by some people like happens in out times and for sure will continue happen .
In that way i could say the time is the best judge.

Respectfully :

Nelson Rocha

Hi Nelson,

Yes I am aware of the proper use of the term "ether" but you have to admit the way it is misused today is not the way it was used by Tesla and others.

Carroll"


I think i only make a respectfully answer to you but its my opinion  but other persons could judge too .



Respectfully:

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 04, 2017, 01:33:34 PM
Brad
I have one question
Partzman's work [MEI} evolves around Pancake coils
we have not even touched the later versions
Why is it an attack on MH to say
This is an ongoing investigation into Pancake coils ?

I have no Dog in the Tesla hunt
just the results

if there is an effect which holds true to the Claim {Nelson's and Partzman's]

how can we dismiss this ,without qualifying it?

especially when it may have merit [a unique feature for MEI investigations.

honestly ,there is much to learn here, and we don't know for certain if MEI [and Nelson work}  require some unique attribute of the Pancake coil to work.

I see no point demanding answers[MH Whats so special] until the testing is done.

I apologize in advance if
saying its an ongoing investigation is taken as an attack.
and that is at the brunt of this entire "attack"
Mh insisting on answers to questions which are under investigation.

and then Nelson gets defensive and its all run amuck



Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on May 04, 2017, 01:38:52 PM
I am truly sorry this has gone on for so long.  But we all have the freedom to post anything we want until someone stops us.  I believe I have found what may be at the root of the problem with this discussion.  I also may be very wrong.  If so I apologize.  Please read the post above where Nelson quotes MH.  Do you really see anywhere in that post where MH attacks or puts down anyone?  All I see is him offering to help someone to learn more.

When Nelson first started posting here I made a post in support of what he was doing.  He attacked my post and told me I was wrong to post it.  I then realized he did not truly understand what I had posted.  I assume English is not his native language.  This language barrier has I feel contributed in a large part to the problems between MH and Nelson.

I have great respect for MH as I posted earlier.  I do feel he probably should have just dropped his disagreement with Nelson several pages back and just let it go.  To those of us with real electronics training it is obvious Nelson has some things to learn.  That is fine.  We all can still learn some things.  Let's please let all this go and get back to some real research.

Respectfully,
Carroll

Exactly. This bears repeating. If NR is reacting defensively to statements like that from MH, it indicates that the statement has "hit a nerve", meaning that the truth is recognized ... and "truth hurts".

It does not justify attacking MH personally, calling him an ownerless biting dog, or any of the other attacks and insults from various people that MH (and I! and some others!) have suffered here.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on May 04, 2017, 01:46:08 PM
Brad
I have one question
Partzman's work [MEI} evolves around Pancake coils
we have not even touched the later versions
And yet many of the coil forms that Partzman has shown that produce the effect are not even remotely "pancake" coils
resembling the coil in Tesla's patent #512340.
And my own successful first attempt at reproducing his effect used a decidedly non-pancake, bifilar solenoid coil.
Quote
Why is it an attack on MH to say
This is an ongoing investigation into Pancake coils ?
It isn't. But it definitely IS a totally ad-hominem attack on MH to compare him to an ownerless biting dog.

Quote

I have no Dog in the Tesla hunt
just the results



Speaking of dogs... Maggie says "Woof!" which means something like "Forget that, take me for a walk dammit!"

Quote

if there is an effect which holds true to the Claim {Nelson's and Partzman's]

how can we dismiss this ,without qualifying it?

especially when it may have merit [a unique feature for MEI investigations

Now are we lumping NR's claim (which was what exactly?) in with Partzman's (which is _not yet_ a claim of actual OU performance, as I understand it)?

Or are we just generally saying their "claim" is that flat coils are special in some unspecified way?

Maggie has the right idea, I think.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 04, 2017, 01:51:32 PM
we're saying
we don't really know yet.[if Pancakes are special in MEI work



But Maggie has a good idea....


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 04, 2017, 01:51:40 PM
Exactly. This bears repeating. If NR is reacting defensively to statements like that from MH, it indicates that the statement has "hit a nerve", meaning that the truth is recognized ... and "truth hurts".

It does not justify attacking MH personally, calling him an ownerless biting dog, or any of the other attacks and insults from various people that MH (and I! and some others!) have suffered here.

I did not attack anyone i just say :"There is a proverb that says people like him are like  "dogs that do not know the owner"
Did you want that i explain to you what means ?

That is calling dog to anyone ?  is a proverb . Are so difficulty understand that ? Is the language barrier that are make fog when you read ?
People have eyes to read clear all the posts .
And What truth hurts me ?    are you referring to what objectively? Is that your argument to make their defense?
How i see i'm a visceral aggressor :) come on stop joking .

cheers

Nelson Rocha



Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on May 04, 2017, 01:53:34 PM
Ether? Disinformation and censorship against the idea of "ether", a term that was coined by a great scientist and even used by Tesla?

What about "phlogiston" then? Another term coined by a great scientist, accepted as referring to something real by other great scientists ... but was eventually discarded when better ideas and descriptions of phenomena came along. Nobody today talks about phlogiston.

(By the way I prefer the spelling 'aether' , which distinguishes it from the chemical diethyl ether, a volatile liquid sometimes used for anaesthesia, solvents and engine starting fluid.)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on May 04, 2017, 01:58:21 PM
I did not attack anyone i just say :"There is a proverb that says people like him are like  "dogs that do not know the owner"
Did you want that i explain to you what means ?



If you don't see that as an attack, there is something seriously wrong here. Perhaps it is a language problem or a cultural divide, but it is definitely a hurtful statement. You can nitpick about semantics, saying "there is a proverb that says" is somehow different from saying directly "Mile High is like an ownerless dog"... but it isn't really different at all in its hurtfulness.

Quote
That is calling dog to anyone ?  is a proverb . Are so difficulty understand that ? Is the language barrier that are make fog when you read ?
People have eyes to read clear all the posts .
And What truth hurts me ?    are you referring to what objectively? Is that your argument to make their defense?
How i see i'm a visceral aggressor :) come on stop joking .

cheers

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 04, 2017, 02:00:09 PM
Ether? Disinformation and censorship against the idea of "ether", a term that was coined by a great scientist and even used by Tesla?

What about "phlogiston" then? Another term coined by a great scientist, accepted as referring to something real by other great scientists ... but was eventually discarded when better ideas and descriptions of phenomena came along. Nobody today talks about phlogiston.

(By the way I prefer the spelling 'aether' , which distinguishes it from the chemical diethyl ether, a volatile liquid sometimes used for anaesthesia, solvents and engine starting fluid.)

Sometimes you have nice way to use your sarcasm approach . The question is : Did i attack Carrol when i give my opinion about he consider pseudo science when someone talk of ether ?
You consider my answer a attack ? lol  I even shared with him a book by Oliver Lodge about this theme.
What is wrong with that ?

cheers

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 04, 2017, 02:04:12 PM

 
If you don't see that as an attack, there is something seriously wrong here. Perhaps it is a language problem or a cultural divide, but it is definitely a hurtful statement. You can nitpick about semantics, saying "there is a proverb that says" is somehow different from saying directly "Mile High is like an ownerless dog"... but it isn't really different at all in its hurtfulness.

I refrain in my sentence that is a proverb , but if you understand like a attack what i could do about that ?  is your opinion and i respect . but someone that go attack even friends just because don't agree with their point of view to me fits very well in that proverb. Is like he say to i kiss their ass , maybe to you no problem but maybe to me is a way of language aggression .

cheers

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on May 04, 2017, 02:05:19 PM
I did not attack anyone i just say :"There is a proverb that says people like him are like  "dogs that do not know the owner"
Did you want that i explain to you what means ?

That is calling dog to anyone ?  is a proverb . Are so difficulty understand that ? Is the language barrier that are make fog when you read ?
People have eyes to read clear all the posts .
And What truth hurts me ?    are you referring to what objectively? Is that your argument to make their defense?
How i see i'm a visceral aggressor :) come on stop joking .

cheers

Nelson Rocha

I get why you didnt care for that post from MH. He went right for the "you need help in electronics" and you took offense to that. It used to be that he would say this place was for people to learn electronics, and apparently that is not what he says these days. ::)

Just follow my lead and ignore. Read if you like but replying just gets ya what ya get. You throw a stone and he brings the sword. You bring the sword and he brings the gun.  Its always a 'one up', as in to out do your comeback replies with escalating name calling etc..  If some others here dont agree, Ill show 'at least' 10 examples of exactly that, from this thread alone AND only going back to where I joined in. Been looking.  Any challengers on that claim I just made??  ;)

Anyway, just chill and ignore. Its not worth the wear on the keyboard.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 04, 2017, 02:12:08 PM
If I may put a line in the sand at this ongoing investigation into Pancake coils discussion.
an intermission of the Fist ti cuffs ,we can resume @$#%#@ shortly

I did put out a call to membership to Buy Brad a scope [a few hours ago]
the Funds are here
also there are extra funds to go To Tinsel [several specific requests

just hung up with Brad ,
and he'd be wasting money buying it in OZ when we can
get it so much cheaper [exchange rate]


I will also be talking with Stefan about how we can make these contributions to builders a part of the forum here

he had some ideas

intermission over...




Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Grumage on May 04, 2017, 02:24:27 PM
Before you go " talking scopes ".....

I wish to resign from the role of moderator.

I lost a friend yesterday and upon deep reflection I realised that perhaps my thoughts are a little outdated for the present times.

My sincerest apologies.

Graham.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on May 04, 2017, 02:40:35 PM
Russ Gries response to Tinman video #3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyG3F_4-TLo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyG3F_4-TLo)

haha, well you realize that you were the one who made up the test that I was doing... :) as I stated in my video, " I don’t think this is the proper way of doing this measurement" and that’s why I was saying it, just as you explained it here in this video :)
anyhow, it did tell the story of what is happening in the circuit.

However your clam from the beginning was that there WAS more current flowing in R2 than there was in R1. That was the clam, but from what I have seen you do in this series of videos is you haven't measured a voltage anywhere to back up that clam.

So, if you use a light bulb (a restive load) to check "current" then you can indeed get a light to light with less voltage and more current. See what I'm trying to say here? I would like you to measure a Voltage with a reference ground point outside the coil. (so not anywhere in the coil) this is basically what I was doing in my last video, measuring the voltage of L1+R1 and L2+R2.  So if I would stick a resistor R3 on the side where your positive is coming from your FG then I would measure the exact amount of current as R1.  there for just as you said, what goes in must come out, however, what you measure inside the coil ( L-C circuit and if you add the R2 then it is a parallel L-C-R circuit) is different.

so at the end of the day, you might be putting in 1 watt, But if you can get this circuit "pumping" then you can measure "more" current in the L-C-R "tank" type circuit. that’s how these type of circuits work.

Of course there is capacitance in this coil. That’s the entire reason why Tesla dezigned this coil. Over all the years Ii have played with high capacitance coils (This is what Stan Meyers VIC injection bobbin dose) all that extra capacitance sets up a Self L-C circuit. And if you want to include the resistance of the wire then it’s a fill blown R-L-C circuit.

So having that capacitance is very helpful for some applications.

What happens in a L-C circuit? At some point you get maximum current flow. That is at the resonant point.
So it makes good sense that you can “measure”  more current  with in the circuit than what your FG can put out, as you have pointed out.
I hope this helps you understand what we are dealing with here.  We can think outside the box but only if we cannot explain it in the box first.
Think of it as a laser cavity. You can get MAGAWATS out of a laser cavity. However if you add up all the inputs of 1w pulses of light over the given time domain of the pumping  ( so 1watt x the time pumped) then you can see how its possible to get that 1 megawatt worth of power out of that device.
If you don’t calculate the TOTAL energy input over the time, then it’s a mystery why you can get 1megawatt out when your only putting 1 watt in???

Now if we were thinking outside the box is  when we can sustain a 1 megawatt output while still putting in only 1 watt…
Hey, are we having fun yet  I am!
Also that’s why the Rodin coil testing was so interesting, its because I could measure the output Vs input, and I’ll be darn, I could get 1 amp in and 1 amp out, however the VOLTAGE was 40:300???
I was seeing an extra 800Watts in my Rodin coil testing…
So if I could “tap in to” that power and extract that extra Voltage, and NOT disturb the input ( so capacitive or dielectric coupling only) then it might just might be possible to use that “extra” power that is being generated in that coil ( using its self-capacitance and resistance and inductance)
Wow that was a long response, but I fell text will be better than a video for this one :)
~Russ
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on May 04, 2017, 03:08:02 PM
author=ramset link=topic=17186.msg505990#msg505990 date=1493897614]
Brad




Quote
I have one question
Partzman's work [MEI} evolves around Pancake coils
we have not even touched the later versions
Why is it an attack on MH to say
This is an ongoing investigation into Pancake coils ?

It's not an attack to say we have ongoing investigations--thats fine,and i am one of those carrying out those ongoing investigation's.

But here is the thing.
We get guys come in here and say-the Tesla BPC is (yes-is) special.
So MH ask's what is special about it,and go's on to say that there is nothing special about it.
So then the guys that made the claim that it is special,now attack MH,and say he has no idea what he is talking about,and should just shut up.
Fact is,these very same guy's,are also the guy's that cant show anything special about the BPC--but there still happy to tell MH to shut up--WTF

This is(and you know this)not the scientific method.
If you make a claim,then you have to have the data to back up that claim--not just tell some one to shut up,because there wrong-even though you cant prove there wrong.

Quote
if there is an effect which holds true to the Claim {Nelson's and Partzman's]

I have no idea as to what Nelson has claimed,but has Partzman ever claimed that this effect is !only! due to the BPC,as it would seem that TK can achieve the same results with a solenoid coil-as can i now.

Quote
how can we dismiss this ,without qualifying it?

How can we make great claims on it,without qualifying it?.

Quote
especially when it may have merit [a unique feature for MEI investigations.

Im hoping it dose turn out to have merit,but we are not there yet,and so claims of greatness should not be fought over,until the proof is in the pudding.

Quote
I see no point demanding answers[MH Whats so special] until the testing is done.

I agree Chet,and i also see no point in making claims about how great the BPC is,until testing is done.

Quote
I apologize in advance if
saying its an ongoing investigation is taken as an attack.
and that is at the brunt of this entire "attack"
Mh insisting on answers to questions which are under investigation.

Thats not it Chet.
The problem is,as i stated-those here that make great claims about the BPC,but havnt a shred of evidence to back it up !yet!--but still feel that they have the right to tell MH to shut up,as he dosnt know what he is talking about.

Quote
and then Nelson gets defensive and its all run amuck

As i said,i dont know much about Nelson.
But what i have read so far,Nelson has much to learn--as do most of us here.

Even the best of us get it wrong some time's,and it happened in this thread,and at OUR,in regards to Partzman's circuit--and this was from two guys that know there stuff-MH,and verpies.
Verpies first pointed out,on the thread at OUR,that the position of R2 in Partzman's circuit,would not show the correct input current value. MH also posted the schematic showing the very same thing-R2 should be at the live input end,and he drew in a capacitance that bypassed the R2 path.

I argued with verpie's over this,and told MH that he made a mistake,and that all the current would flow through R2 in the original ground position.
It took TK to verify this,before anyone would listen.

So the point is-we can all be wrong at one point in time,even if we are the best of the best.

MH might take note of the above example,and understand that !sometime's! the guys on the bench,know more than what the books might teach  ;)

I think a system re-boot needs to happen now,and lets just get on with the show,without all the agro.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on May 04, 2017, 03:20:06 PM
Russ Gries response to Tinman video #3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyG3F_4-TLo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyG3F_4-TLo)

haha, well you realize that you were the one who made up the test that I was doing... :) as I stated in my video, " I don’t think this is the proper way of doing this measurement" and that’s why I was saying it, just as you explained it here in this video :)
anyhow, it did tell the story of what is happening in the circuit.

However your clam from the beginning was that there WAS more current flowing in R2 than there was in R1. That was the clam, but from what I have seen you do in this series of videos is you haven't measured a voltage anywhere to back up that clam.

So, if you use a light bulb (a restive load) to check "current" then you can indeed get a light to light with less voltage and more current. See what I'm trying to say here? I would like you to measure a Voltage with a reference ground point outside the coil. (so not anywhere in the coil) this is basically what I was doing in my last video, measuring the voltage of L1+R1 and L2+R2.  So if I would stick a resistor R3 on the side where your positive is coming from your FG then I would measure the exact amount of current as R1.  there for just as you said, what goes in must come out, however, what you measure inside the coil ( L-C circuit and if you add the R2 then it is a parallel L-C-R circuit) is different.

so at the end of the day, you might be putting in 1 watt, But if you can get this circuit "pumping" then you can measure "more" current in the L-C-R "tank" type circuit. that’s how these type of circuits work.

Of course there is capacitance in this coil. That’s the entire reason why Tesla dezigned this coil. Over all the years Ii have played with high capacitance coils (This is what Stan Meyers VIC injection bobbin dose) all that extra capacitance sets up a Self L-C circuit. And if you want to include the resistance of the wire then it’s a fill blown R-L-C circuit.

So having that capacitance is very helpful for some applications.

What happens in a L-C circuit? At some point you get maximum current flow. That is at the resonant point.
So it makes good sense that you can “measure”  more current  with in the circuit than what your FG can put out, as you have pointed out.
I hope this helps you understand what we are dealing with here.  We can think outside the box but only if we cannot explain it in the box first.
Think of it as a laser cavity. You can get MAGAWATS out of a laser cavity. However if you add up all the inputs of 1w pulses of light over the given time domain of the pumping  ( so 1watt x the time pumped) then you can see how its possible to get that 1 megawatt worth of power out of that device.
If you don’t calculate the TOTAL energy input over the time, then it’s a mystery why you can get 1megawatt out when your only putting 1 watt in???

Now if we were thinking outside the box is  when we can sustain a 1 megawatt output while still putting in only 1 watt…
Hey, are we having fun yet  I am!
Also that’s why the Rodin coil testing was so interesting, its because I could measure the output Vs input, and I’ll be darn, I could get 1 amp in and 1 amp out, however the VOLTAGE was 40:300???
I was seeing an extra 800Watts in my Rodin coil testing…
So if I could “tap in to” that power and extract that extra Voltage, and NOT disturb the input ( so capacitive or dielectric coupling only) then it might just might be possible to use that “extra” power that is being generated in that coil ( using its self-capacitance and resistance and inductance)
Wow that was a long response, but I fell text will be better than a video for this one :)
~Russ

And my response to Russ 

Russ. The whole point of the test i gave you to carry out,was to see if you would pick up on the mistake of measuring the current flow through R2,and take that as the total current flow.. There are some of us at this very time,who are getting overunity results,and great care has been taken in the power measurements. So let's be honest,you made a video trying to show i was doing it the wrong way,but in that video you showed a phase shift in two flowing currents through the coils,when in fact,if you wanted to bring in power factor's,you should have been showing the phase shift between voltage and current. So why didnt you get an OU result,well for the very reason i showed in my last video. If you have been doing this a long time,then you should have picked up on that-but you didnt. Once again,you made a claim that i was wrong,and that L2 wasnt dissipating more power than L1,but once again you missed something that you should know all about,and because you missed that,you decided that i was wrong,and that L2 was not dissipating more power than L1.--Hmmm.

Anyway-such is life--but take more care when you decide to make a video about some one else,and there work,and try and tell them they are wrong.


So evostars,what else has Russ missed?
He showed us in his first video,but never gave it a second thought--do you bother to watch thing's closely,or do you just kick back,and ride on some one elses wave's?

I bet you have no idea what Russ missed in the first video  ;D


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on May 04, 2017, 03:45:25 PM
Good, it's over.  Magluvin's little poll backfired on him.  He is fully aware of what he did to me on this forum when he teamed up with Synchro1.  It's the same pattern as you have seen here with Nelson only much much worse.  He tries to brush it off but it is there.

As far as Nelson goes, his predatory behaviour towards me comes to an end right now.  Forget all of the spinning from all of the players around here including Nelson himself, the real issue was Nelson's perception that he could come in and bash me whenever he pleased.  He did it repeatedly and then tried to pretend that he didn't.

You also saw a lot of ridiculous spinning that would compete with what transpired in the recent US election.

Why do people act like this?  What is going on in their hearts?  I will just quote myself, "Every person should have the strength of character and the personal integrity and the self-respect to behave properly."  If you can't do that then you are a schmuck.

Many people, especially Magluvin, attempt to demonize me.  Don't fall for the spin, trust your own instincts and make your own judgements.  Magluvin has deep psychological issues about me, he literally hates me.  It's an unhealthy obsession on his part and factor that in when you read what he says about me.

You are not going to find me insulting and degrading people, but I will push back from time to time like any normal person.  Hey, I am an imperfect human also, and I am sure my record is not 100% squeaky clean.  But my general comportment is good and I do not go around bashing people, that's for sure.  So don't get fooled by any cherry picking of quotes from me, especially if they are taken out of context.

Nelson's insulting and bashing of me stops now, and you can dismiss any protests that he might make of his innocence, it's all right here on this thread.

Now we can move on.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 04, 2017, 04:08:11 PM
Good, it's over.  Magluvin's little poll backfired on him.  He is fully aware of what he did to me on this forum when he teamed up with Synchro1.  It's the same pattern as you have seen here with Nelson only much much worse.  He tries to brush it off but it is there.

As far as Nelson goes, his predatory behaviour towards me comes to an end right now.  Forget all of the spinning from all of the players around here including Nelson himself, the real issue was Nelson's perception that he could come in and bash me whenever he pleased.  He did it repeatedly and then tried to pretend that he didn't.

You also saw a lot of ridiculous spinning that would compete with what transpired in the recent US election.

Why do people act like this?  What is going on in their hearts?  I will just quote myself, "Every person should have the strength of character and the personal integrity and the self-respect to behave properly."  If you can't do that then you are a schmuck.

Many people, especially Magluvin, attempt to demonize me.  Don't fall for the spin, trust your own instincts and make your own judgements.  Magluvin has deep psychological issues about me, he literally hates me.  It's an unhealthy obsession on his part and factor that in when you read what he says about me.

You are not going to find me insulting and degrading people, but I will push back from time to time like any normal person.  Hey, I am an imperfect human also, and I am sure my record is not 100% squeaky clean.  But my general comportment is good and I do not go around bashing people, that's for sure.  So don't get fooled by any cherry picking of quotes from me, especially if they are taken out of context.

Nelson's insulting and bashing of me stops now, and you can dismiss any protests that he might make of his innocence, it's all right here on this thread.

Now we can move on.


I never insult you or no one in this forum  but the opposite happens . I never tell you to you shut up like some of your friends say but the opposite happens because you feel that have that authority  .

And you have true is all right here on the posts that you write  ; no doubts about that . persons have eyes to see that you are not a victim . you are only a victim of you own behavior.
Like i told you in other occasion you should review how you treat people , and everything will run nice and normally .

Have a nice day

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on May 04, 2017, 04:09:12 PM
Good, it's over.  Magluvin's little poll backfired on him.  He is fully aware of what he did to me on this forum when he teamed up with Synchro1.  It's the same pattern as you have seen here with Nelson only much much worse.  He tries to brush it off but it is there.

As far as Nelson goes, his predatory behaviour towards me comes to an end right now.  Forget all of the spinning from all of the players around here including Nelson himself, the real issue was Nelson's perception that he could come in and bash me whenever he pleased.  He did it repeatedly and then tried to pretend that he didn't.

You also saw a lot of ridiculous spinning that would compete with what transpired in the recent US election.

Why do people act like this?  What is going on in their hearts?  I will just quote myself, "Every person should have the strength of character and the personal integrity and the self-respect to behave properly."  If you can't do that then you are a schmuck.

Many people, especially Magluvin, attempt to demonize me.  Don't fall for the spin, trust your own instincts and make your own judgements.  Magluvin has deep psychological issues about me, he literally hates me.  It's an unhealthy obsession on his part and factor that in when you read what he says about me.

You are not going to find me insulting and degrading people, but I will push back from time to time like any normal person.  Hey, I am an imperfect human also, and I am sure my record is not 100% squeaky clean.  But my general comportment is good and I do not go around bashing people, that's for sure.  So don't get fooled by any cherry picking of quotes from me, especially if they are taken out of context.

Nelson's insulting and bashing of me stops now, and you can dismiss any protests that he might make of his innocence, it's all right here on this thread.

Now we can move on.

I behave as a gentleman but "I will push back from time to time like any normal person" too. You told me I can't tell a watt from a Tesla.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on May 04, 2017, 04:25:04 PM
Meanwhile back at the ranch.....
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on May 04, 2017, 05:35:06 PM
oops wrong forum    ;D
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: partzman on May 04, 2017, 05:53:34 PM
oops wrong forum    ;D

That's OK, still a great test ;)!

Pm
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on May 04, 2017, 06:26:21 PM
Graham, thank you for your work and your time and your heart.
Please accept my best wishes and condolences, I am sorry for your loss.
Hang in there, mate...
--TK
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on May 04, 2017, 06:28:08 PM
Maybe what is special about a BPC is that it can more readily show a condition that any coil "can" have, and that maybe it allows for easier control over the parameters.

Yes, that is right, that's a good way of putting it.  Lowering the relevant frequencies makes for easier control over everything.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on May 04, 2017, 06:36:19 PM
Same here Grum. Had a friend/roommate die in bed with hart failure some 8 years back.  Cops were all over the place from 8pm to 1am. They were asking me crazy questions to feel me out... Like when I told them what I did for a living, they were asking me what is the best way to remove paint from an old corvette, etc, like I wanted to have that conversation or even try. Then they put me in a car with a tape recorder and asked lots of relevant questions all the way to "did you kill craig"  NO I said. Was a bad day and the weeks after as I hadnt ever even seen a person passed away other than at a funeral of which I hadnt seen since i was a kid.

Its a crazy weird life.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 04, 2017, 06:37:08 PM
UMmm
I know this is odd
but I should break the Ice [since Grum is on house duty and not  reading ATM

Twas a friend he lost here due to moderating him...not an actual death of a friend

hope that clears that up

he Now choses to not moderate here.


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on May 04, 2017, 06:41:24 PM
Here you go, an exercise in power calculation.

CH1 is the input voltage.
CH2 is the input current, measured by the voltage drop across a precision noninductive resistor and converted to a current value.
CH3 is the output voltage across a 19.8 ohm precision noninductive resistor stack.
Math channel is CH1 x CH2.
Phase shift (for power factor correction) from CH1 to CH2 is -82.39 degrees.

All the information is there on the screen and in this post for calculation of Average Input Power, Average Output Power, and COP.

The Math automatic average measurement shows the Input Power directly, but this value may be a little off, so the manual computation should also be performed as a check.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 04, 2017, 06:50:35 PM
Hmm
I just heard MH is on Moderation, and has sent Pm's alluding to me as the instigator.

I had nothing at all to do with this ,I do know Stefan absolutely detests being annoyed all the time
from complaints here.

I will be speaking with Stefan about good things here this weekend ,how to support experimenters
here.

respectfully
Chet K

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on May 04, 2017, 06:51:37 PM
UMmm
I know this is odd
but I should break the Ice [since Grum is on house duty and not  reading ATM

Twas a friend he lost here due to moderating him...not an actual death of a friend

hope that clears that up

he Now choses to not moderate here.

Oh.... I see.  Well, I just found out about a real death today and I'm still shaken up over that.

Copy paste this, ese.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on May 04, 2017, 07:00:59 PM

 :'(


can a moderator spank TK for this racial remark....I am offended....

Lol

Im not going to remove any posts, and Graham is out on that end, so Brad will have to use his discretion on those things from here on in this thread.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on May 04, 2017, 07:57:02 PM

Was being sarcastic....but at the same time was pointing out the obvious....  Folk should be able to say whatever they want....  it's just words....

Your right. Im going to follow that lead here on in.  If it doesnt work out for some then sobeit. ;)   

Mags

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Grumage on May 04, 2017, 08:26:51 PM
UMmm
I know this is odd
but I should break the Ice [since Grum is on house duty and not  reading ATM

Twas a friend he lost here due to moderating him...not an actual death of a friend

hope that clears that up

he Now choses to not moderate here.

Thanks for clearing that up Chet.

Indeed, thanks to all for the messages both public and private.

One thing that has become apparent is that this community has a heart of solid Gold and it beats strongly.

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on May 05, 2017, 02:17:09 PM
So,things found so far with the BPC

1-Adjusting the frequency can result in either the circuit being more inductive than capacitive,or more capacitive than inductive-we are talking turn coupling here.
At the right frequency,the circuit can be seen as purely resistive,and phase alignment is quite easy to achieve-->power factor of 1.

2-As the P/in is very low,due to using the SG as the P/in source,i switched to 1/4 watt resistors.
With R1 and R2 being 100 ohm's,and R2 dissipating the most power,one would think that it would be R2 that has the highest temperature rise,when in fact,R1,which is dissipating less power,shows the higher temperature gain.After 10 minutes running,where R2 is dissipating twice the power,it's temperature actually drops by 1.5*C below room temperature,while R1,which is dissipating only half the power of R2,rises by 2*C above room temperature.

3- The frequency can be adjusted so as the current flowing through the coil,can flow in both directions at once--some one here mentioned that  :o
So the current enters the coil in one direction,at the center tap (where R2 is on my schematic),the current is flowing in the opposite direction,and then once again flows out of the coil,in the same direction it is flowing into the coil.
Russ also showed this in his first video reply to me,but seems he missed the significance of this  ???

I will be carrying out the same tests on a bifilar solenoid coil,so as we can see if the BPC stands alone with the above.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 05, 2017, 04:10:41 PM
Quote
Erfinder
 Folk should be able to say whatever they want....  it's just words....
--------------------------------------

Well
perhaps some perspective
here there are people who pop in and out just for casual interest

and then there are folks who are much more serious [experimenters] who have dedicated huge portions of their life to this "research"
 I have found many of the more serious involve their families and share much with their wives and even Kids and grandkids ,its a part of their family experience.

The Kids or grandkids, wives  can read here.

It is true that there are other forums where this is easier to do, however why is it so important to trade street talk for
this??

being able to share this experience with the next generation ,and even with Wives or similar, should not be dismissed so easily
 
Just one mans opinion



respectfully
Chet K


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on May 05, 2017, 04:41:39 PM
Quote
Erfinder
 Folk should be able to say whatever they want....  it's just words....
--------------------------------------

Well
perhaps some perspective
here there are people who pop in and out just for casual interest

and then there are folks who are much more serious [experimenters] who have dedicated huge portions of their life to this "research"
 I have found many of the more serious involve their families and share much with their wives and even Kids and grandkids ,its a part of their family experience.

The Kids or grandkids, wives  can read here.

It is true that there are other forums where this is easier to do, however why is it so important to trade street talk for
this??

being able to share this experience with the next generation ,and even with Wives or similar, should not be dismissed so easily
 
Just one mans opinion



respectfully
Chet K

Nope
Two mens opinion.

I agree 100% Chet.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: partzman on May 05, 2017, 06:44:13 PM
Quote
Erfinder
 Folk should be able to say whatever they want....  it's just words....
--------------------------------------

Well
perhaps some perspective
here there are people who pop in and out just for casual interest

and then there are folks who are much more serious [experimenters] who have dedicated huge portions of their life to this "research"
 I have found many of the more serious involve their families and share much with their wives and even Kids and grandkids ,its a part of their family experience.

The Kids or grandkids, wives  can read here.

It is true that there are other forums where this is easier to do, however why is it so important to trade street talk for
this??

being able to share this experience with the next generation ,and even with Wives or similar, should not be dismissed so easily
 
Just one mans opinion



respectfully
Chet K

I 100% agree as well!

Pm
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 05, 2017, 07:17:43 PM
Not sure if this has been linked here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNzbc-N-e9c
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE
There is a member here who has chosen to destroy and demean the work of Tinselkoala
most here know who this is ,I will not comment any futher, However if this person is allowed to continue their personal vendetta or is seen posting here

Tinsel has requested his acc]t here be removed in its entirety.

this has not happened as of yet?
 


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TK has put a tremendous effort in here, and I know he holds no conclusions supporting any claims.

as Partzman is doing the same here...and Partzman's commitment and work to date is not really possible to measure [Tremendous investment in time and money [years long]

and still.. scientific Scrutiny is embraced and whole heartedly encouraged !

is there an error and where does it hide??

respectfully
Chet K
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 05, 2017, 07:39:39 PM
Not sure if this has been linked here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNzbc-N-e9c
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE
There is a member here who has chosen to destroy and demean the work of Tinselkoala
most here know who this is ,I will not comment any futher, However if this person is allowed to continue their personal vendetta or is seen posting here

Tinsel has requested his acc]t here be removed in its entirety.

this has not happened as of yet?
 


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TK has put a tremendous effort in here, and I know he holds no conclusions supporting any claims.

as Partzman is doing the same here...and Partzman's commitment and work to date is not really possible to measure [Tremendous investment in time and money [years long]

and still.. scientific Scrutiny is embraced and whole heartedly encouraged !

is there an error and where does it hide??

respectfully
Chet K

Ramset, seems After all it seems like there's something special about PBC ...   even the measures be inconclusive ;) and be made by impartial persons like TK .

I hope the best is yet to come. ;)



Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 05, 2017, 09:38:51 PM
Nelson
Honestly it is very hard to believe. and here the Skeptic [the capable skeptic] is embraced with gratitude.
Transmission line theory and standard EE modeling are overlapping here[maybe more too??.

However there have been other ways to show these results[input dropping with load applied]
and those were easier to sort [find the real gain mechanism ,[or error]..

I know it can change either way at any moment...with Lots of help arriving daily to assist.
But I agree
Lets hope the best is yet to come!!

respectfully
Chet K
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 06, 2017, 01:15:39 AM
The COP's climb
the scrutiny too

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3445.msg61705;topicseen#msg61705
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 06, 2017, 01:27:38 AM
Nelson
Honestly it is very hard to believe. and here the Skeptic [the capable skeptic] is embraced with gratitude.
Transmission line theory and standard EE modeling are overlapping here[maybe more too??.

However there have been other ways to show these results[input dropping with load applied]
and those were easier to sort [find the real gain mechanism ,[or error]..

I know it can change either way at any moment...with Lots of help arriving daily to assist.
But I agree
Lets hope the best is yet to come!!

respectfully
Chet K

Ramset , i agree with you  that is much to do to  , but the possible  "OU" effect is a reality , myself already measure the same OU months ago , but unfortunately most ignore when i put the video show that apparently OU , in this same thread many posts ago .
The difference is that my work is not recognized because seems i don't understand nothing of electronics ;) and i not have any credibility in this community, and of course i did not make claims :) what seems Essential for some persons.
I put again the link of the video with the "apparently" COP above 1 
https://youtu.be/Te7NcDY-afQ?t=18

cheers

Nelson Rocha

PS- look to date of video ;)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 06, 2017, 02:29:32 AM
Nelson
Don't take it personally
Partzman has done the same work for years, and when he was unable to loop it [still trying]
he would put it down and rest a bit
but its been on his bench at OUR for several years but many more years than that on His Lab bench.

he has always assumed an error [we are supposed to do that with claims this big]
but he is unable to find the obvious??error

not that it was ignored but not really taken seriously either [by the community]

Then Nelson comes along...And I asked Partzman again about this {pancake coils]
as we have discussed it casually from time to time over the years ,and its always been on his bench at OUR for anyone who can
visit the forum to see[member or not]

and now we are here??

looking for the error and hoping not to find an error ,but a vindication.

one way or the other
this is good for the community!
and the fellows are having an amazing time with this puzzle
although I think the Koala works too hard on this, he loves it and ??? its hard to do {frustrating to loop].


Thanks
Chet


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 06, 2017, 03:00:55 AM
Nelson
Don't take it personally
Partzman has done the same work for years, and when he was unable to loop it [still trying]
he would put it down and rest a bit
but its been on his bench at OUR for several years but many more years than that on His Lab bench.

he has always assumed an error [we are supposed to do that with claims this big]
but he is unable to find the obvious??error

not that it was ignored but not really taken seriously either [by the community]

Then Nelson comes along...And I asked Partzman again about this {pancake coils]
as we have discussed it casually from time to time over the years ,and its always been on his bench at OUR for anyone who can
visit the forum to see[member or not]

and now we are here??

looking for the error and hoping not to find an error ,but a vindication.

one way or the other
this is good for the community!
and the fellows are having an amazing time with this puzzle
although I think the Koala works too hard on this, he loves it and ??? its hard to do {frustrating to loop].


Thanks
Chet


Hi Ramset,

The meaning of my sentence is not say that anyone is better then no one  , but show that even the less experimented person in this forum  should be see their work and opinion respected and considered , and you will sure agree with me , that not happen since begin , and that should stop and should be a lesson to many people.

Even Partzman opinion was disregarded at a certain point in this same thread in beginning and that should be motive to people think that we are learn all time   .
The most important now is see persons involved and try their best to reach the goal and that will make grow in this forum other forms of thinking in the future .
We should hear and absorb the best of all ideas and opinions and not be guided in rigid way , to people could reach their goals .

Hope the best to all experimenters

Nelson Rocha



Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 06, 2017, 03:16:57 AM
Nelson

I must admit
It would be a thing of beauty if it turns out to be real

The reason it sat on the bench off and on for so long, is that old timers here have seen this "type" of effect many times
in many circuits ...circuits where the errors' were eventually found ,  this is assumed {and still is} to be one of those errors'

until proven otherwise [with looping or a gain which proves no doubt]

that is after all the scientific method

I do agree with your comments .

have a good night

Chet
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Drak on May 06, 2017, 03:34:12 AM
  I'm no expert in the field of electronics, but instead of directly trying to loop this device, wouldn't it be easier to find the best frequency that gives the best results for the particular device and build a small circuit that supplies that frequency being powered by some caps (or supercaps). Then on the output use equal value caps and see how much they charge? Or is there a lot of losses in caps?


Again I'm no expert, just throwing out ideas.

 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: padova on May 06, 2017, 05:03:39 AM
I might try this setup, but I would go whit more power 0.5W or so.
Also what is impedance of L2 at some frequencies, We all know what happens when you connect low impedance loading,
Unless we really have some sort of negative electricity going on inside.
TK has tried connecting a diodes as  voltage rectifier with associated capacitors, I guess it was too low impedance.

I know these are all well known stuff. I apologize.

respectfully
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on May 06, 2017, 07:05:28 AM
Ramset , i agree with you  that is much to do to  , but the possible  "OU" effect is a reality , myself already measure the same OU months ago , but unfortunately most ignore when i put the video show that apparently OU , in this same thread many posts ago .
The difference is that my work is not recognized because seems i don't understand nothing of electronics ;) and i not have any credibility in this community, and of course i did not make claims :) what seems Essential for some persons.
I put again the link of the video with the "apparently" COP above 1 
https://youtu.be/Te7NcDY-afQ?t=18

cheers

Nelson Rocha

PS- look to date of video ;)

Unfortunately your video shows very little in the way of correct power analysis method's--it has to be far better than that.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on May 06, 2017, 09:02:33 AM
The Partzman Bifilar Transformer  is not a Tesla Bifilar coil because its series connection is not connected, and the "input" winding is left floating at the end. It also is not operated at its resonant frequency. Further, it doesn't have to be a pancake coil, the effect can also be obtained with a solenoid coil properly wound.
So for those three reasons it probably does not belong in this thread.

But I'll post a little photo anyhow, just to keep the pot stirred.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 06, 2017, 11:14:55 AM
While the effect has been noted in other coils

Partzman's work is mostly with Pancake coils in many configurations ,these have presented the best results to date.
there  has been all manner of testing and all manner of  serious work in other configurations ;
and yes it was found that resonance was to be avoided ,but not assumed to always be the case[as a definitive statement .

not certain of Tesla wind as this has been going on for many many years with all manner of attempts
but at the end of the day, Pancake coils are where Partzmans MEI work has focused .

 yes this should be in its own thread here.

will see ?

respectfully
Chet K
ps
re Coils he has seen the effect with
Partzman quote
Below is a pix of some of the various coil arrangements I have used that all yield COP>1 except for one, that is the coil in the upper right hand corner.  Most are made with ribbon cable and the one sandwiched between the plexiglass is 3x 25 turns of 26 awg magnet wire and has produced >30 watts out in a 51 ohm load when driven with resonance on the input.

Pm
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Dog-One on May 06, 2017, 11:38:47 AM
Quote from: partzman
Below is a pix of some of the various coil arrangements I have used that all yield COP>1 except for one, that is the coil in the upper right hand corner.  Most are made with ribbon cable and the one sandwiched between the plexiglass is 3x 25 turns of 26 awg magnet wire and has produced >30 watts out in a 51 ohm load when driven with resonance on the input.

So ribbon cable not so good.  Bummer.

Okay then, if I can draw up some nice PCB coils and submit them to OSH Park (https://oshpark.com/),
anyone can buy them direct from there and test to their hearts content.

Who is game for that?


Playing with Fusion 360 (https://www.autodesk.com/products/fusion-360/overview), it is fairly easy to generate a spiral coil.  I'm able to export
it, make a DXF conversion and pull it into DipTrace (http://diptrace.com/).  So this looks very practical.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Jimboot on May 06, 2017, 12:35:39 PM
Nope
Two mens opinion.

I agree 100% Chet.


Brad
3 and I would add just attack the data not the messenger. I loved that about MarkE. 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Grumage on May 06, 2017, 12:56:21 PM
Hello All.

For something " quick and dirty " what about Copper " Slug repellent " tape?

It comes in various lengths and widths with a non stick paper backing, any type of " bi, tri or quad " configuration could be tried fairly easily.

Just a thought....

Oh Poynt99 has also suggested coaxial cable. L1 being the centre core and L2 the braid.

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Dog-One on May 06, 2017, 01:16:30 PM
Hello All.

For something " quick and dirty " what about Copper " Slug repellent " tape?

It comes in various lengths and widths with a non stick paper backing, any type of " bi, tri or quad " configuration could be tried fairly easily.

Just a thought....

Oh Poynt99 has also suggested coaxial cable. L1 being the centre core and L2 the braid.

Cheers Graham.

Don't think coax cable will work.  Tried a bunch of that.  But PCBs...   Yeah, that's the ticket.

You guys jump in with some specs and I'll design'm, post'm and you can play with'm.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Jimboot on May 06, 2017, 02:07:19 PM
I'm on board Matt (pun intended) My understanding was high impedance, more turns will get desired effect at a lower frequency, so more accessible.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 06, 2017, 02:17:50 PM
Unfortunately your video shows very little in the way of correct power analysis method's--it has to be far better than that.


Brad

Hi Tinman, about your comment, I agree, that power analysis method's is not the best,but give a slight idea :) to people that not have a scope , and for sure you will agree that forum is not only you or me or a single minority , but a community of lot people that not have the same tools like some have .

About you say that i need make better than that in relation to “power analysis method's” , I left that job to people more skilled than me  like you :) with you bench tests . Good luck to feed back the system ;)


Cheers


Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: AlienGrey on May 06, 2017, 02:32:06 PM
Don't think coax cable will work.  Tried a bunch of that.  But PCBs...   Yeah, that's the ticket.

You guys jump in with some specs and I'll design'm, post'm and you can play with'm.
try not to talk too much about 'slugs' at eating times! But have you noticed the cost of compact low voltage bell wire ? is it gold plated?
Anyway has anyone tried using obsolite coils of ribbon cable dead cheap and compact? just a thought that might be of use.

AG
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on May 06, 2017, 03:27:24 PM
Wound another coil today,just to see what would happen.
I used 3mm multistrand wire,plastic insulated.

As expected,the capacitance value was low,as well as the inductance value.
So this means a higher operating frequency-but i did get it to work.

The lit bulb is where R1 go's in Partzman's circuit,and the unlit one has one leg between R1 and R2,and the other leg is at the P/in point.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on May 06, 2017, 03:30:10 PM
Hi Tinman, about your comment, I agree, that power analysis method's is not the best,but give a slight idea :) to people that not have a scope , and for sure you will agree that forum is not only you or me or a single minority , but a community of lot people that not have the same tools like some have .

About you say that i need make better than that in relation to “power analysis method's” , I left that job to people more skilled than me  like you :) with you bench tests . Good luck to feed back the system ;)


Cheers


Nelson Rocha

My skill set is not with electronic's-although i am getting better lol.
My scope is also an el-cheapo,and one channel is misbehaving-but we carry on with what we have.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 06, 2017, 03:58:53 PM
I did notice DogOne made a comment about ribbon cable being no good [and he was sad]

This is not the case at all.

AlienGrey
I will ask for a clarification on that today [I believe it is preferred in some cases of MEI work

thx
Chet
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Dog-One on May 06, 2017, 06:59:19 PM
Quote from: Jimboot
I'm on board Matt (pun intended) My understanding was high impedance, more turns will get desired effect at a lower frequency, so more accessible.

From my comprehension of what's going on here, spacing between conductors and
perimeter is critical.  What I don't know is if completely flat like a PCB is better than
having the surfaces facing each other--like the way a electrolytic capacitor is rolled.

Evostars was wishing there was a 3D electric field simulator available that could show
how the fields manifest, but without such a piece of software, I suppose we wing-it
for the moment and find out trial-n-error.

Anyway Jim, I'll continue on with a PCB design and post it.  That will give some of
us a reference platform to work from where we can compare notes and focus on the
drive circuitry.


I did notice DogOne made a comment about ribbon cable being no good [and he was sad]

This is not the case at all.

That's good because I now have a bunch of it.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 06, 2017, 07:19:38 PM
hmm
somebody posted an image which grew the page
anyhoo
here are some interesting control experiments  which Poynt had requested [were actually on  Tinsel's "things to do/Check list " ]


http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3445.msg61765;topicseen#msg61765

respectfully

Chet K
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 06, 2017, 11:53:57 PM
And  poynt's control circuit result is being discussed further

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3445.msg61775;topicseen#msg61775
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on May 07, 2017, 02:52:14 AM
Had a lith batt pack on charge on my bench and later into the charge I heard a PSSSSSSSsssss.  Went and looked and sure enough 1 of the 18650 cells ruptured and spewed liquid on the bench a bit but that was it. I said, dang I gota get this outside now. I disconnected the charger and grabbed it by the pigtail and got half way to the open garage door..........

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on May 07, 2017, 03:07:34 AM
Yep. Got me.  Learn new crap every day. ::)   But Im glad it didnt happen on my bench on front of my scope, PS, stereo, bench surface, charger, etc. It was like having like a firework of some kind.  Like 4 road flares 2 in the opposite direction, times 5 on the output, then just flamed for a bit..  lol just noticed I dont have any hair on that arm on most of it below the elbow. Im a freak now.lol

Im doing work for a guy that his business uses these packs of 4 set up for 7.4v series parallel with the safety circuit board on top. This pack was one that we were testing to see if it would take a charge as the charge circuit in the device wasnt charging it.  Ends up it was one of the first ones of the bunch.  Sooo now I am getting a metal cabinet for this stuff for testing and charging. 

An event like that can really make ya an instant critic on lith batts..  Yup

Tesla cars have 444 18650 panasonics in each pack.  I imagine when they go its a bit more, emmm, explosive. :o

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on May 07, 2017, 03:51:19 AM
Hi Mags,

One indication of a bad lithium is a slightly swelled case.  I had one that took a charge fine.  When my RC plane was climbing out it got to about 100 feet up and bang the lithium battery blew apart and caught fire.  Luckily the explosion blew it out of the plane and it fell on the runway and burned there and the plane of course just tumbled down because of the loss of balance without the battery and no power.

Most places that sell the RC size lithiums also sell a charging bag to put them in while charging them.  I never charge one without it being in the bag after seeing the kind of fire they make when they go bad.  I think the bag is made of Nomex.

Sorry to see the nasty burn you got.  Very glad it was not worse.  I have heard on the RC forums about  people losing their homes because of fires started by lithium batteries.  I cringe every time I see a post where someone is trying to charge a lithium with their Joule Thief or other pulse type charger.  They are literally playing with fire.

Take care,
Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on May 07, 2017, 05:26:56 AM
Hey Carrol

I will check on the bags, thanks

These were 18650 cylinders. Ive seen the flat packs swell, but these not yet. After the PSSSSssss  there was a bubble on that cell about the dia of a dime and out about 1/4 in. After that it was looking ok, but after seeing vids on these doing just that I quickly decided to move it. If i had waited 5 seconds to find something to grab it with it would have done a lot more damage on the bench than I care to think about. Flames were shooting like 2ft in a couple directions on the floor after I dropped it and went on for like 10sec then just pop pop smoke pop smoke.  Funny I had a long sleeve white shirt with the sleeves pulled up just below the elbow. On the top of my arm below that is now a golf course. All hairs 1mm.  but the shirt was untouched.  So as it ended up it was worth the burn to avoid the damage it could have cost.  But that is not going to happen that way again or anything close to it in the future.

The cells were just bare cylinders where most all have that shrink plastic cover where usually the color of the wrap indicates the type of drain the thing is made for. Like i said we believe it was an older pack..The protection board is suppose to limit the charge and discharge and do a balance on series cells. So at times we have a battery that the batteries are at the low limit and when you try to read the voltage at the pigtail there is nada till it is charged up past the threshold and then you can read voltage and use till it breaches again. So this one was just that, nada and put on charge to test. 



These batteries and other high energy density power sources as we see them now and as they get smaller and more powerful in the future should be an encouragement to find what we are looking for here. Energy on demand without the huge storage components that when they are damaged or have some fault could light up a city block under the right conditions. Not saying that an FE device couldnt have its lets start a fire today episode, but I think with the right safety features, at least there could be a redundant shutdown, or even just good old fuses to shutter down, where the batteries, there isnt much you can do to stop what these batteries will do once the damage is done. Run forest run!!

I wonder if you charged a 300f 3.2v cap and hit it square with a sledge hammer what might go down. :o Like cap gun caps. 1 dot and bang. 1 roll with a hammer and your ears are ringin like never before and you feel the blast hit you and the hammer at times really bounces back up from the preasure.

Anyway enough of that and Thanks

mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 07, 2017, 03:39:46 PM
Boom
Mags, Thanks for sharing your close call with The lithium ,a good reminder to all.

the work continues with the builders ...amazing group effort from the builders here.

what a privilege to read and wonderful to see.

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3445.450

I MUST ADD

this investigation is just getting started !!

stay tuned !!

respectfully
Chet K
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: AlienGrey on May 07, 2017, 04:56:12 PM
.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on May 07, 2017, 05:13:22 PM
Xee2 tested the inductance of the two different kinds of windings on ferrite cores and measured a 5% increase in the series bifilar in both low and high perm cores:
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Grumage on May 07, 2017, 05:15:27 PM
Dear AlienGrey.

Would that be a Free Energy Device with Conformité Européenne??

Highly unlikely, they wouldn't know where to put the " sticker " !

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 07, 2017, 05:15:49 PM
AG

Only been 7 years for you ?? [probably 50 or more for some reading here]
I do however feel your pain...

I think this is all going to change very shortly...perhaps the problems here
will diminish too when there is a clear path and especially when we can make better measurements ,and recognize true anomalies .

the only way to advance your position...is to actually know where you're standing.

and here in this thread [including OUR] the Builders have made some benchmark moments better defining where we stand.

respectfully
Chet K





Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 07, 2017, 06:08:39 PM
Erfinder

some folks have different paths , I can honestly say your position [ignore  measurement]
 has always confused me.

but from a very early age I was taught this method {aviation industry]
and I have found it saves lives [Material testing Lab experience]



and in this case ,the pancake thread experiments [ here and at OUR]
it has become imperative to make good measurements so as to know where one stands.

I would imagine even persons who seek investors will eventually have to cross that bridge to access funding?
but here we are open source !!

and so far ....in this thread
we have learned measuring is a good thing.

respectfully
Chet K

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on May 07, 2017, 06:33:43 PM
Below is Ampere's force law. We can see that lowering inductance will lower the magnetic force with the same current:
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 07, 2017, 06:44:31 PM
well
there is no better time to lead by example

and yes it is not a topic to be taken lightly [open source OU]
as you say " countless lives are being lost and have been lost"

respectfully
Chet K

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: AlienGrey on May 07, 2017, 07:45:33 PM
.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: AlienGrey on May 07, 2017, 08:02:12 PM
.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on May 07, 2017, 08:47:15 PM
We know the higher inductance of the ferrite core series bifilar coil will result in a stronger magnetic field. We can measure this with a Gauss meter. We can convert the greater flux into an electrical power equivalent with the following formula: 3600 Joules per second will deliver 1 Tesla (10,000 Gauss) in a coil of 1 Henry of inductance. The result will equal the "Gain in Watts"!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 07, 2017, 11:18:31 PM
Well
I can guarantee you that if you start a topic with a preface explaining your position

you will get respect here ![it is what we are trying to accomplish here
open discussions without sidetracking comments or unsolicited fights.

There are many interested in what you have to say.
Those who are not should refrain from interrupting ,it has after all
been made perfectly clear [by yourself] your stance on their input [applying measurement protocols to everything ].

And on the second comment ,I was not sure what you meant ,nor do I need
to fill this topic with explanations or off topic conversations.

I respect your position ,although I know you could care less about my respect ,and I am OK with that and will narry post a period >.<
in your topic.

and will Beg others who have no real interest or would interrupt with unsolicited comments to do likewise.

respectfully
Chet K

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: AlienGrey on May 08, 2017, 12:02:38 AM
Oh please! i wasn't aware it was still a bifilar pancake coil thread I sort of got the impression it was some kind of mud slinging SA competition gong on in here.

Chet, are you really only 10 years old ?

Anyway, you will be glad to see i have removed my offending posts as hinted.

Regards AG
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: partzman on May 08, 2017, 12:27:34 AM

each time this is tried, the measurement junkies come in with the authority of homeland security and change the subject to....yup you guessed it....proper measurement practices....practices that they themselves have yet to agree on.....

[snip]

Erfinder,

Respectively, in your work I have to assume at some point you take various forms of measurements.  Otherwise, how in the world do you know what you have or where you stand in your development?  How do you compare energy out to energy in which has to be done if the goal is to achieve self powered energy sources?  Perhaps this is not your goal.

Measurements and more accurately stated, precise measurements are a must if one needs to determine if any progress is being made and if the direction taken is correct.

Regarding the measurement issues on OUR,  I feel responsible as it is my COP>1 MEI claims that have driven the efforts to this point in time.  Is it easy to measure accurately, absolutely not.  This is due to the large reactive power in the circuit compared to the smaller resistive power output.  There is much effort by many to develop an accurate as possible measurement protocol.  Will this happen, I happen to believe it will.

Regards,
Pm 

 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on May 08, 2017, 03:12:00 AM
I have two projects on my test bench right now; Let me start with the math:

Xee2 has a series bifilar and a single wire coil of equal turns on two identical high perm cores.

The single wire coil measures 15.9 Milli-Henrys and the bifilar 16.8 Milli-Henrys of inductance.

We know that it takes 3600 Joules per second to generate 1 Tesla of magnetic force in a coil of 1 Henry of inductance, and that 1 Tesla is equal to 10,000 Gauss; Therefore:

16.8 mH divided by 10,000 equals 168 Gauss for the bifilar and 159 Gauss for the single wire at the following power input:

10,000 divided by 3600 equals 2.777. Multiplied by 168 Gauss equals 466.6 Joules per second or 466.6 Watts.

Multiplying the single wire Gauss by the same factor equals 441.5 watts.

Deducting the the 441.5 from the 466.6 gives us 25.1 watts.

So, the gain factor for the bifilar over the single wire coil with the high perm ferrite core is 25.1 watts. That's the power we would save to generate a magnetic field of identical force with the series bifilar wrap over the single wire coil of equal windings.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Mannix on May 08, 2017, 09:27:23 AM
The simple fact is that an "over unity" circuit will self oscillate  ..that is the simple proof that it operates beyond

what our theory tells us it should .
There will be no battery other than to kick start it and that would be a cap any way.
At the same time there are measurement errors that countless people have made claim to proof of operation
because of their trust in measurements but as some of the dedicated people here, poynt99 is the most
respected along with many others helping out to find the truth when claims are made with so called
measurements but with out self oscillation.
Others here have motives that I fail to  understand but that's life I guess .

"Measurement junkies" would not exist if  claims were not made based on them and although they may
be seen as spoiling the fun, they are the real performers here because we must not forget that scrutiny is
valuable to us if we are ever going to learn and sadly our test equipment has limitations that need to be
understood .

Or don't bother with it and self run ..as that is the proof to any body.

The fact is that measurements can only be useful in context ,we still see engineers fail to understand that

digital multi meters (and digital oscilloscopes)operate in a way that is not suitable for measurements outside

"normal" conditions.
Mains ac is usually ok, dc levels of low internal resistance and no variation is ok, and measuring resistor and
cap values where we have no clue they are priceless things.

Put them anywhere near an rf field or a noise source and things go pear shaped .
Even analogue meters have issues ,usually with circuit loading but all are just tools of trade .
When an open source over unity device is presented it will self run ....anything else is almost certainly a
measurement error made without any real self scrutiny.

We all owe a great deal to those that supply scrutiny with careful investigation .
Having said the there are also trolls who will do or say anything just to be noticed by other
nameless entities ...we are a diverse bunch !
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: AlienGrey on May 08, 2017, 11:48:27 AM
Not sure I want to read all this 'driberdrab' If you have a bifilar wound pancake coil will it have any inductance ? so if no inductance how has it got resonance ? surely any single wire has inductance but not bifilar wound has none as it's canceled out, I should know as T1000 had us on that one on the Dailly tread.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on May 08, 2017, 01:26:19 PM

sad really.....you folk can't see without your aids....



Only a fool drives at night,without his head lights on.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on May 08, 2017, 01:38:35 PM
Not sure I want to read all this 'driberdrab' If you have a bifilar wound pancake coil will it have any inductance ? so if no inductance how has it got resonance ? surely any single wire has inductance but not bifilar wound has none as it's canceled out, I should know as T1000 had us on that one on the Dailly tread.

Of course a BPC has inductance.
Anyone that told you otherwise,needs some schooling.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Jimboot on May 08, 2017, 03:25:28 PM

Fact is, I don't have to show anyone anything, and this is true for anyone.  If I want to show someone something I contact them and show them.  Fact is I don't speak in riddles, only the ignorant think I do.
Luvyawork mate.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Jimboot on May 08, 2017, 03:28:39 PM
Only a fool drives at night,without his head lights on.


Brad
Seriously. You blokes have more in common than you know.  Do a Skype video call ffs. Text is rubbish for comms.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on May 08, 2017, 04:24:37 PM
I used Xee2's inductance measures that show a 5% greater Micro-Henries of inductance in his series biflar then his single wound coil of equal turns and wire gauge on both a low and high perm ferrite toroid core.

I reviewed my inductance measurements of two air core bifilar and single wire coils and measured a 10% higher inductance in the series bifilar. The problem was I ran out of space on the bobbin for the single wire at 4 Ohms, while the bifilar measured 5. I divided the Ohms into the Milli-Henries for a ratio and arrived at a 10% greater inductance for the bifilar, twice the percentage of Xee2.

I think the extra difference may be a consequence of my "Home style wrap" so I plan to do one more test with two tight coils of equal turns on a High-Perm ferrite core.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: partzman on May 08, 2017, 07:35:41 PM

It would be an untruth if I were to say that I have not taken any measurements.  Here's the thing....I am not looking for what you and others are looking for, I have very little interest in what many of you are chasing after. 


A scope will not tell me where I stand......  Where I am headed, comparing energy in and out is a waste of time.  A self powering device requires a mechanism.  Your measurement instruments will not reveal that mechanism to you, they, your measurement instruments, will inform you of what they were designed to inform you of, nothing more.  The concept of self powering as you and others present it, is of no interest to me.  I prefer my own dogma.




I disagree.  The problem I have with many of you is your perspective.  You all are preoccupied with systems which "dis-integrate" energy. I busy myself with systems which "integrate" energy.  This simple change in perspective forces one to recognize that there are no "precise measurement protocols" for systems based on integration...... 


I don't need your measurement methods to inform me whether I am making progress and or whether I am headed in the right direction, you cannot of your own accord reproduce, without my guidance, anything that I can demonstrate, with or without your measurement aids!


The sad truth as I have come to see it, you people can't see the forest for the trees.  The system gives what is demanded of it, you choose not to appreciate the manner by which it manifests.  You place demands on the system, force it to yield that which you want.....ignorance....  The system does not judge you, it does not correct you, it accommodates your ignorance!  These fields and forces were here long before man put pen to paper, attempting to quantify and qualify the infinite-unfathomable in a few lines of text.....LOL....  These fields and forces will be here long after the planet has rolled out of the sweet spot it now occupies, a spot which makes man the idea possible. 


It's all reactive, you know it, and yet....you run from it, chasing after .....LOL




Regards

I really can't say that I disagree with you on your points above.  I can say that I see a broad hint in your last statement and therefore would like to ask if you have developed a device that self runs?

Regards,

Pm
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on May 09, 2017, 05:40:39 PM
I have two projects on my test bench right now; Let me start with the math:

Xee2 has a series bifilar and a single wire coil of equal turns on two identical high perm cores.

The single wire coil measures 15.9 Milli-Henrys and the bifilar 16.8 Milli-Henrys of inductance.

We know that it takes 3600 Joules per second to generate 1 Tesla of magnetic force in a coil of 1 Henry of inductance, and that 1 Tesla is equal to 10,000 Gauss; Therefore:

16.8 mH divided by 10,000 equals 168 Gauss for the bifilar and 159 Gauss for the single wire at the following power input:

10,000 divided by 3600 equals 2.777. Multiplied by 168 Gauss equals 466.6 Joules per second or 466.6 Watts.

Multiplying the single wire Gauss by the same factor equals 441.5 watts.

Deducting the the 441.5 from the 466.6 gives us 25.1 watts.

So, the gain factor for the bifilar over the single wire coil with the high perm ferrite core is 25.1 watts. That's the power we would save to generate a magnetic field of identical force with the series bifilar wrap over the single wire coil of equal windings.

Bistander maintains the 5% difference in inductance measured by Xee2 between the series bifilar and single wire coil of equal turns and wire gauge is a result of the connection between the two bifilar coils. He may be correct, but the single wire coil has no way to benefit from this advantage, and clearly demonstrates a "Marked Difference" between the two types of coils!

Reply to bistander:

"I made the point that a more tightly wound coil would generate a stronger field than a sloppily wound coil of equal wire gauge and turns for the same input. Lets say the difference in inductance was 5%. We could equal the strength of the sloppy coil with the tight coil by reducing the input by 5%, right?

Lets say we feed 10 watts into both coils: We would gain 1/2 watt in savings, right? 100 watts would result in 5 watts savings and 500 watts would result in 25 watts savings, got it?

My power input calculations result in a savings of that amount with that amount of difference in inductance between the two types of coils. You say I divided when I should have multiplied. Your approach would throw the answer off in the wrong direction by an "Astronomical Parsec".

I was asked for a simple explanation: Greater inductance results greater efficiency, got it"?

Bistander complained the coils were not wrapped on the same core. I'm replicating Xee2's test with the two types of coils on the same core right now, and have finished the two wraps and am currently testing for accuracy.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on May 09, 2017, 11:49:53 PM
Here's a digital still shot of my two types of coils on the high perm ferrite rod, along with my magnifying glass holder and "VICI" inductance meter registering 27 degrees Centigrade on the temperature scale. That's 80.6 degrees Fahrenheit, about perfect!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on May 10, 2017, 12:34:08 AM
Bistander maintains the 5% difference in inductance measured by Xee2 between the series bifilar and single wire coil of equal turns and wire gauge is a result of the connection between the two bifilar coils. He may be correct, but the single wire coil has no way to benefit from this advantage, and clearly demonstrates a "Marked Difference" between the two types of coils!

Reply to bistander:

"I made the point that a more tightly wound coil would generate a stronger field than a sloppily wound coil of equal wire gauge and turns for the same input. Lets say the difference in inductance was 5%. We could equal the strength of the sloppy coil with the tight coil by reducing the input by 5%, right?

Lets say we feed 10 watts into both coils: We would gain 1/2 watt in savings, right? 100 watts would result in 5 watts savings and 500 watts would result in 25 watts savings, got it?

My power input calculations result in a savings of that amount with that amount of difference in inductance between the two types of coils. You say I divided when I should have multiplied. Your approach would throw the answer off in the wrong direction by an "Astronomical Parsec".

I was asked for a simple explanation: Greater inductance results greater efficiency, got it"?

Bistander complained the coils were not wrapped on the same core. I'm replicating Xee2's test with the two types of coils on the same core right now, and have finished the two wraps and am currently testing for accuracy.

Hey Sync
What are we measuring the inductance with to see the difference or is it a calculated value? Seems most are getting the same value but 5% could be possibly nicked off as they are really close sooo.  But if that little difference no matter what % is mostly more for the bifi then you may have something. But is there any advantage to the small increase of inductance in the bifi?

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on May 10, 2017, 12:39:00 AM
Sync, can u post a circuit from Bistander? Im just wondering what he is doing

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on May 10, 2017, 01:09:52 AM
Mags,

My test measurements are .35 mH for the single wire coil and .38  mH for the series bifilar  on the same high perm ferrite core;. This is very close to the ratio measurement I got between the two air core coils, around 10%. Both these measurements were made with my Vici inductance meter pictured above with the coils and magnifier. This is a brand new meter with a fully charged battery!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 10, 2017, 02:28:30 AM
since this is Evostars thread and Allen took part in him leaving here [his own thread]with rude behavior [which Allen [synchro1] is Now moderated by Stefan for]
here is what evostar wrote to Allen when he pulled the same nonsense at Evostars energetic  forum thread

Evostar reply to Allen [synchro1 here]
QUOTE
Allen Burgess,[synchro1 here]
With all respect I kindly but urgently ask you to start your own thread.

I do NOT like your words:
"you're a shameless scoundrel,
you deceptive trouble maker"

END QUOTE

to which Allen [Synchro1]replied

Allen Burgess
Quote
@evostars,

Poor baby.
end quote
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on May 10, 2017, 02:44:20 AM
magluvin
Since Stefan put Allen on moderation, perhaps he should decide what he posts in his forum[if at all]
this fellow is causing problems at energetic forum
why do this here too?

it is a liability to Stefan
maybe we should let him decide ?
I will ask him tomorrow [too late tonight

and I will also discuss the threats he has made against other members here
Personal vendetta's to destroy them and their reputations

some are threatening lawsuits

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 11, 2017, 12:12:30 PM
Hi ,
 to ppl interest in this subject i left a very nice document that talk about some of the properties and advantages studied by Oliver Nichelson,  where he show some of the important points that he find in such coils with some comparison's between a bifilar and non bifilar coils. Is not a big document and for sure the interested people will enjoy read them .

Hope people enjoy ;)


Nelson Rocha



Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: padova on May 12, 2017, 01:23:02 AM
I'd ask you about your "Alu-foil Levitation" pancake coil, some specifications, is it bifilar coil or single wound,
but I guess it's not open source for now?  :)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 12, 2017, 12:15:24 PM
I'd ask you about your "Alu-foil Levitation" pancake coil, some specifications, is it bifilar coil or single wound,
but I guess it's not open source for now?  :)

Hi Padova ,
nice that you enjoy that video even i not publish that video in the forum . (I don't make any claims) :)
You know that actually, i did not work in opensource but i can answer that question without any problem :
 the coil is bifilar winding  ;)

Cheers

Nelson Rocha

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: padova on May 13, 2017, 09:51:10 AM
Thanks,
I couldn't see that on the video,  thought maybe it's some special coil, or winding.
Interesting experiment anyway.

regards
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on May 14, 2017, 03:48:56 PM
At 1:25 in this video Tinselkoala announces that his single wire coil has a higher inductance because it's wrapped tighter!

There's a strong chance TK sneaked just this same kind of "Rim Lead" into his earlier two coil inductance test!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXKJjNAZDEM
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 16, 2017, 12:52:45 PM
Hi ppl,

I add another interesting document related with the bifilar pancake coil , with many aspects approached by Oliver Nichelson.
I add too, one interesting a small video about some capabilities of the bifilar pancake coil be a very "inefficient" coil for use in electric power transfer ;) indeed a normal conventional transformer like some persons say .    :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ytg_B9Vs60


Wish all the best to all

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Jimboot on May 16, 2017, 01:15:18 PM
Hi ppl,

I add another interesting document related with the bifilar pancake coil , with many aspects approached by Oliver Nichelson.
I add too, one interesting a small video about some capabilities of the bifilar pancake coil be a very "inefficient" coil for use in electric power transfer ;) indeed a normal conventional transformer like some persons say .    :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ytg_B9Vs60 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ytg_B9Vs60)


Wish all the best to all

Nelson Rocha
Wow good find Nelson thanks
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: leonelogb on May 17, 2017, 01:07:50 AM
I have learn a lot here, thank @ll :)
I have been trying to find the way how to connect the bifilar pancake coil like a regular capacitor, but I don't sure. Can somebody put schematic or explain how to connect those tree wire of the bifilar coil, the way as in OZONE PATENT, this is my main objects . Thank before hand!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: leonelogb on May 17, 2017, 03:10:30 AM

Something like this... but no sure! ::)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on May 19, 2017, 01:39:44 AM
Tonight I explained something, and it reminded me of the hall effect
(https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall-effect#/media/File:Hall_effect.png)

Why does a bifilar coil when pulsed with ac regular show a magnetic field, in the same direction, at different frequencies?

On what physics, is tesla's claim in his patent 512340 :
I have found that in every coil there exists a certain relation between its self-induction and capacity that permits a current of given frequency and potential to pass through it with no other opposition than that of ohmic resistance, or, in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction

I think it has to do with how the fields act.

normally(single wire coil)  the magnetic field wraps against the magnetic field of the next winding, counteracting it. bad thing. The voltage differnce between the windings is minimal, so the dielectric field is weak, giving a very high resonant frequency.

but with the bifilar coil, due to the much greater voltage difference between the windings, the dielectric field is much stronger between the windings. when it is strong enough (voltage dependent i think) the magnetic field is blocked, it cant flow in between the windings(only in 1 direction, but not the opposite) , because the dielectric field is there. It blocks the magnetic field. ( Hall effect, but aplied to the weaker magnetic field due to the stronger dielectric field)

the magnetic field will keep flowing over the windings, and over the dielectric fields (at 90 degrees of the dielectric field)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on May 19, 2017, 06:13:44 AM
Tonight I explained something, and it reminded me of the hall effect
(https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall-effect#/media/File:Hall_effect.png (https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall-effect#/media/File:Hall_effect.png))

Why does a bifilar coil when pulsed with ac regular show a magnetic field, in the same direction, at different frequencies?

On what physics, is tesla's claim in his patent 512340 :
I have found that in every coil there exists a certain relation between its self-induction and capacity that permits a current of given frequency and potential to pass through it with no other opposition than that of ohmic resistance, or, in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction

I think it has to do with how the fields act.

normally(single wire coil)  the magnetic field wraps against the magnetic field of the next winding, counteracting it. bad thing. The voltage differnce between the windings is minimal, so the dielectric field is weak, giving a very high resonant frequency.

but with the bifilar coil, due to the much greater voltage difference between the windings, the dielectric field is much stronger between the windings. when it is strong enough (voltage dependent i think) the magnetic field is blocked, it cant flow in between the windings(only in 1 direction, but not the opposite) , because the dielectric field is there. It blocks the magnetic field. ( Hall effect, but aplied to the weaker magnetic field due to the stronger dielectric field)

the magnetic field will keep flowing over the windings, and over the dielectric fields (at 90 degrees of the dielectric field)

Sorry  hit the post by accident if you see this before i edited it. now...

Id like to think that there is a different activity happening in the bifi, and I think it could be something we hopefully figure out.

Nice idea on the possibilities.  Sorta the same as I described as the possibility that at resonance the 2 coils may be ignoring each others inductance thus the possibility that the working inductance is only the value of each windings inductance.  Im saying possibly as some will say its not and we need to prove what we think or its just same ole same ole. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on October 19, 2017, 01:58:52 PM
I found out that by pulsing a bifilar coil with back emf, I can make it resonate with a third field, that doesnt have magnetic properties.
https://youtu.be/X0axISEVNVk (https://youtu.be/X0axISEVNVk)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: skycollection 1 on October 19, 2017, 02:56:53 PM
In this experiment i am using a bifilar pancake coil....is this like you say...?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CovWTHPni30
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on October 24, 2017, 11:29:50 AM
In this experiment i am using a bifilar pancake coil....is this like you say...?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CovWTHPni30

Hi Skycollection,
No, I dont think so. But that video of yours is interesting.
It shows the rotor, at the side of the coil (the middle) is the right spot.

For me, I'm not working with moving parts. only moving fields, created by resonance.
One resonance created by the start of the current (instant voltage change of a pulse).
And another form of resonance created by the interuption of the current (back emf).
This resonance shows no magnetic field properties.
But both resonance have one common field, the dielectric field, observed as a sine wave voltage.
If these 2 sine waves, are in phase, the voltages add up.
Not only that, the magnetic field and 3rd field also inter act.

Normally back emf is burned away, but this time, this massive instant voltage energy is re-used, by storing it in a capacitor, that is part of the already (magnetic) resonant coil.
All the fields combine. Its like a little trick in time.
Its still a work in progress.
 
PM me if you want a quicker reply, I dont hang out on the forums.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on December 30, 2017, 10:52:18 PM
I made a video explaining how to easily make a bifilar coil from speaker wire, and how the fields are situated:
https://youtu.be/ZKP9Bgpqa5E (https://youtu.be/ZKP9Bgpqa5E)

You can stack multiple coils in parallel to increase capacitance.

update:
I have designed a circuit in LTspice, that is supposed to do what I want.
I'm now designing the board. Very exited about this.
If it works, I will share more, but it might need some tweaking.
(Bifilar pancake coil Resonance, without a magnetic field).
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on January 03, 2018, 07:34:02 PM
Circuit board is ready for testing and tweaking.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on January 10, 2018, 01:34:06 AM
the circuit works.
It showed me you can bring a bifilar coil into resonance by injecting it with high voltage.
the high voltage injection should be like a simulated back emf spike. High voltage, but ultra short duration.
The voltage can be captured from the back EMF of a pulsed coil.
Stored in a capacitor.

This capacitor is than discharged via the resonant coil. giving it a pulse.
Just like ringing a chuch bell/clock with a hammer. A high energetic short duration pulse, making it resonant.

The timing of the pulse should be at the top of the resonant sine wave when the back emf voltage is positive.
In relation to the 50% duty cycle pulse to create the positive  Back EMF, it should be at 25% (90 degrees).

So in conclusion:
There are 2 ways to bring a coil into resonance.
1 is via magnetic flux (parallel coil with 50% duty cycle)
the other way is via dielectric flux. (directly into the resonant coil).

So, when a coil A is pulsed with 50% duty cycle @ resonant frequency of parallel coil B,
positive back emf of coil A is temporarily stored into a capacitor.
Coil B is resonant from magnetic flux of coil A producing a resonant sine

at 25% duty cycle (90 degrees resonant sine, at Vmax) the capacitor is very shortly discharged (like a back emf spike simulation) into the resonant coil.
This energetic spike, also brings the coil into resonance. producing a sine.

As the coil already was resonant from coil A's magnetic flus, and the resonance from both methods are in phase, the coil will add up the voltages of the sine wave. Resulting in a stronger field. both magnetic as dielectric, as they transform into eachother when resonant.

One nice observation: a 25V capacitor discharge produced a 325V resonant sine (peak to peak).
The capacitor doesnt discharge completely.
The capacitor can easily charge up to 200Vdc...
 ;)
 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 10, 2018, 02:29:27 PM
The geometry of the electric field is expanding (or contracting) radially.
The perpendicular magnetic flux in the vertical domain is also expanding
or contracting, radially.
This creates a secondary electric flux, which is in the vertical domain.
and it, a secondary magnetic flux in the horizontal domain.


At resonant frequency, the two magnetic fields cancel out. They are
exactly equal and opposite. (in reality the 2nd field is slightly smaller)
However, there is not complete cancellation of the electric flux.
There is still an electric flux at the point when V should drop to 0.
This induces an opposing magnetic field of 1/4 period, occurring twice per
oscillation.


This is the magnetic moment caused by capacitive inductance.
there is no opposing force to this induction.
And has a frequency-doubling effect.
It’s amplitude is less than that of the initial signal.
But drawing from this current has no effect on the induction of the
primary impulse, because the initial signal has no flux at this time.


Electric flux is completely outside the coil.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on January 10, 2018, 04:06:22 PM
At resonant frequency, the two magnetic fields cancel out.
No they don't. This is a common misconception.

The coils in Tesla patent 512340 do NOT cancel the magnetic field.
The windings are wound in the same direction.
the magnetic field polarities of both windings are the same.

Since the capacitance is increased, there can be more energy stored in the dielectric field,
resulting into a stronger magnetic field at resonance,
 when these 2 fields transform back and forth into each other.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on January 10, 2018, 04:28:06 PM
I tried to prove there is a third field. By showing resonance without a magnetic field component.
This is not true. Resonance, is still between electric and magnetic fields.

The "apparent" non magnetic field I tried to prove, actually was a magnetic field that was more north than south(or vice versa), due to the long duration (50%) positive pulses I used to get the coil into resonance.
 
This resulted in a swing of the compass, as the resultant vector of the fast changing magnetic field wasn't zero.

But It can be zero!
 the magnetic field can be perfectly balanced, resulting in dielectric/magnetic resonance, that doesn't swing the compass needle.

The way to do this, is by instant voltage. off-on-off.
A simulation of a back emf spike, that has high voltage (energy),  but is instant.
It  has no duration in time. To do this is to connect and disconnect (instant) a charged capacitor to the resonant coil.

 the resonance produced by this method is rather special. it has a much higher voltage then the original spike.
This is because, the counterspacial dielectric field bewteen the windings is instantly there. as soon as the voltage is applied from the cap, the voltage difference is instantly there bewteen the windings. it takes NO TIME, the dielectric field is instantly there.

In comparing with a capacitor, that needs charge time, because the plates are not connected,
the bifilar coil needs no charge time, the dielectric field is instantly there!!!

Now think what this does at resonance... where the fields transform back and forth between dielectric and magnetic.

The Sine wave representative of the dielectric field strength (voltage) reseaches its maximum voltage, and is charged instantly by the capacitor to a higher voltage. charge is even a wrong word... as it indicates time. it is instant.

this higher voltage, dielectric field, @ resonance transforms into a magnetic field, and back into a dielectric field (negative) and back into a magnetic field (negative) and again back to a positive dielectric field, where the whole process starts again.
But this time the dielectric field is stronger (only a small loss from wire resistance), than before. Again it is pulsed. the voltage becomes higher and higher...

super empose this onto the magnetic resonant sine, and we've got a runaway.
more and more voltage, stronger and stornger magnetic fields.
only restricted by the wire resistance, and the switching mechanism.

To create a output, simply ad another resonant coil in parallel, tune it to the first resonant coil, and rectify into a capacitor bank, to feed a DC load. the load, keeps the voltage rise under control. clipping of the top and bottom of the sine wave making it more like a rectangle...

This is what I'm working on, and what I'll keep doing until it works.
I'll use my youtube channel to explain it in smaller steps.
this is the playslist so far:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhY27Zoor-Q&list=PLFz4KwTTMz5HlNimggtTsrDN9_jD2ZTeS
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: skycollection 1 on January 10, 2018, 10:13:59 PM
MASTER IVO EXPERIMENT, thanks for the idea, this is your experiment...!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPUB5ukCUsE
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on January 14, 2018, 11:14:14 PM
MASTER IVO EXPERIMENT, thanks for the idea, this is your experiment...!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPUB5ukCUsE
Super cool.
Title: C.P. Steinmetz explains electricity
Post by: evostars on February 08, 2018, 02:15:59 PM
In C.P. Steinmetz his book
"Elementary lectures on electric discharges, waves and impulses, and other transients" from 1911,
he describes how electricity works, in a way that is very logical, by using the dielectric and magnetic fields.

It has inspired me greatly.  I'm very grateful Nelson Rocha shared his first edition of this book with me.  ;D
 It has given me great insights in how a bifilar coil really works, and what we can do with it.

I am making a video series explaining the fundamentals, and how this is translated to the bifilar tesla pancake coil.
These are the first 3 in the series (more to follow, please subscribe on my youtube channel)

Lesson 01: Fields; electric energy stored in the dielectric and magnetic field
https://youtu.be/NSKKbEo6fzI

Lesson 02: Power, inductance and capacity; and how they relate.
https://youtu.be/LclozdKdZRc

Lesson 03: Infinite voltage and current; and how the time factor plays a role
https://youtu.be/zmZxQp1PW1U

I hope this will inspire more people.
Together these 3 videos hold a lot of information that when combined are priceless.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MasterPlaster on February 11, 2018, 04:42:21 PM
@Erfinder,
You seem to know a lot. If you do then share it. It serves no purpuse to keep things to yourself
in the hope that on these forums general public starts forming a "solid fundamental understanding"
of anything.

To some of us it is quite clear that the wheels are coming off the cart and a lot of our beliefs no longer
apply.

For my part I am thankful to evostars for sharing his findings.
Personally I generally avoid  commenting on matters that I have no practical experince and keep in the
shadows.

I saw this posted a while back and am not sure if it is related to the subject mater:
https://phys.org/news/2017-10-effect-electromagnetism-years.html
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on February 19, 2018, 12:15:38 AM
...
For my part I am thankful to evostars for sharing his findings.
Personally I generally avoid  commenting on matters that I have no practical experince and keep in the
shadows.
...
Thank you for being thankful MasterPlaster.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 19, 2018, 05:22:57 AM
Am I the only one who finds it ironic that an IBM researcher
Named Thomas Watson, is trying to claim something that belongs to
Greg Watson, of Australia? (1985)
(also synonymous to 1/2 of a Howard Johnson gate)

Don’t get me wrong, it’s great that the academics are finally looking
at it, but the notion that anomalous energy is present in this magnetic
arrangement, is in the nomenclature.
Not a “new” discovery......
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 08, 2018, 10:29:48 AM
this is proof of concept, a video about re using back emf to create resonance.
I used 2 resonant coils to understand it better.

https://youtu.be/1Q8usAXWtVM

in a few days, another new video, showing the same 2 processes combined into one and the same resonant coil, showing amplification of the voltage.

still working
 ;D
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 08, 2018, 02:13:32 PM
I'm oscillating this ferrite magnet piston with BEMF from the Reed switch spinner. I'm powering the resonance in the ferrite core serial bifilar coil through a 70uF capacitor in series with the positive input.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hMmJlc6emw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hMmJlc6emw)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 10, 2018, 03:15:08 PM
The previous video was a proof of concept, showing 2 different methods of inducing resonance, into 2 separated bifilar coils.
1: by a square wave pulsed parallel bifilar coil
2: by a series connected capacitor discharge. (nanopulses)

In the next video, I combine both methods, into one bifilar coil.
This amplifies the resonant energy. This is based on an article shared by Nelson Rocha:
http://www.accelinstruments.com/Applications/WaveformAmp/Magnetic-Field-Generator.html

here is the video showing the amplification:
https://youtu.be/01tdMJBKa1I

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 10, 2018, 06:48:09 PM
The previous video was a proof of concept, showing 2 different methods of inducing resonance, into 2 separated bifilar coils.
1: by a square wave pulsed parallel bifilar coil
2: by a series connected capacitor discharge. (nanopulses)

In the next video, I combine both methods, into one bifilar coil.
This amplifies the resonant energy. This is based on an article shared by Nelson Rocha:
http://www.accelinstruments.com/Applications/WaveformAmp/Magnetic-Field-Generator.html (http://www.accelinstruments.com/Applications/WaveformAmp/Magnetic-Field-Generator.html)

here is the video showing the amplification:
https://youtu.be/01tdMJBKa1I (https://youtu.be/01tdMJBKa1I)

@evostars,

I really dig what you're doing. Is there any way you can imagine getting this effect to do physical work?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 20, 2018, 12:28:39 AM
@evostars,

I really dig what you're doing. Is there any way you can imagine getting this effect to do physical work?
Yes, just look at Nelson Rocha's work.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Belfior on March 20, 2018, 09:34:44 AM
Yes, just look at Nelson Rocha's work.

Rocha says you can get 2x the source current with this resonant current amplifier. Isn't that OU right there? Voltage we can raise to what level we want anyway
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Belfior on March 21, 2018, 11:14:28 AM
it is a known fact that :

A series resonant circuit provides voltage magnification.
A parallel resonant circuit provides current magnification.

why can't I just amplify them on their own, the use caps&diodes to convert it all to DC and join the signals?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 24, 2018, 12:12:04 AM
Series parallel resonance makes the voltage in the resonant coil suddenly jump up, when using negative inductive spikes, created from  a high side switched coil.
I did this before with positive inductive spikes, but this time it works even better, the voltage makes an abrupt jump.
This video shows the jump, and gives the basic schematic:
https://youtu.be/AoMJS9Kq4IY

And this video gives more information on the resonant bifilar coil:
https://youtu.be/-9iLXs6HXWA
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: NerzhDishual on April 24, 2018, 08:44:35 PM
About this url:
http://www.accelinstruments.com/Applications/WaveformAmp/Magnetic-Field-Generator.html (http://www.accelinstruments.com/Applications/WaveformAmp/Magnetic-Field-Generator.html)

As my Firefox was not able to print it out properly, I have cleaned some mess (removed a lot of useless code)
and made a pdf.

Very interesting stuff, IMO.
A Falstad simulation is OK. This simulation does not show OU (of course!).
But some clever guys could pick up some ideas. No?

All the Best,
Jean


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on May 09, 2018, 11:25:06 PM
About this url:
http://www.accelinstruments.com/Applications/WaveformAmp/Magnetic-Field-Generator.html (http://www.accelinstruments.com/Applications/WaveformAmp/Magnetic-Field-Generator.html)

As my Firefox was not able to print it out properly, I have cleaned some mess (removed a lot of useless code)
and made a pdf.

Very interesting stuff, IMO.
A Falstad simulation is OK. This simulation does not show OU (of course!).
But some clever guys could pick up some ideas. No?

All the Best,
Jean



Thanks Jean!
Title: One switch, series parallel resonant circuit
Post by: evostars on May 09, 2018, 11:30:43 PM
I improved the series parallel resonance circuit. The previous version was again a proof of concept. But the series capacitor was not fully discharged into the resonant coil. And it took a lot of parts to achieve it.

The new circuit (posted in the video) is based on only one mosfet instead of 2. The mosfet is again high side switched, but now the negative inductive spike is not only charging the series parallel resonant system, this time, the same mosfet, also discharges the capacitor, giving a much higher voltage resonant sine then before.

https://youtu.be/xLzDCBCuiVk
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on May 28, 2018, 08:12:56 PM
Small update
I'm now looking into Tesla's radiant energy, in combination with the bifilar coil.

Tesla in his lectures, talks about disruptive discharging capacitors. So this is what I will explore.
The idea is to charge up a capacitor with negative inductive spikes and disruptive discharge the capacitor into a bifilar coil.

I almost see no other possibility than using a sparkgap. I really dont like sparkgaps,  I always tried to avoid them. but maybe there still is another method.

Bottom line, is the radiant energy effects occur when a sudden voltage change occurs from negative to neutral (not positive) voltage.

Since the bifilar pancake coil has a strong capability to store dielectric fields, the abrupt change in voltage, and therefor the abrupt change in field strength of the dielectric field, should be very well suited for the radiant energy effects.

But first I need to finish relocating my laboratory. so stat tuned.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on July 16, 2018, 12:44:05 PM
Small update video from my almost finished new lab:
https://youtu.be/fytHsaCc8I0
Title: Radiant energy info
Post by: evostars on August 10, 2018, 05:39:34 PM
New video about Tesla's Radiant energy.

I will be conducting new bifilar coil experiments based on the information in Gerry Vassilatos book "secrets of cold war technology"
Since the book is so full of good info (mainly chapter one page 26 to 64), I decided to do a review. This is part one:

https://youtu.be/iDUZtnUMCo0 (https://youtu.be/iDUZtnUMCo0)
Title: Lecture on Nikola Tesla's Radiant Energy part 2
Post by: evostars on August 17, 2018, 05:14:34 PM
Radiant energy, what is it? what does it do? How do we produce it?
Part 2 of this lecture continues explaining:

https://youtu.be/hxd-Ym2uB9Q
Title: Re: Radiant energy info
Post by: aether22 on August 18, 2018, 11:29:57 AM
New video about Tesla's Radiant energy.

I will be conducting new bifilar coil experiments based on the information in Gerry Vassilatos book "secrets of cold war technology"
Since the book is so full of good info (mainly chapter one page 26 to 64), I decided to do a review. This is part one:

https://youtu.be/iDUZtnUMCo0 (https://youtu.be/iDUZtnUMCo0)


May I recommed that use use mu multi-metal discovery?


Also that you use high bandwidth loads (arc/spark gaps and lamps and noisy DC motors).


And that you use the same twist directions for all wire joins.


And, that you attach and negative of a car battery to the circuit.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on August 24, 2018, 05:57:00 PM

May I recommed that use use mu multi-metal discovery?


Also that you use high bandwidth loads (arc/spark gaps and lamps and noisy DC motors).


And that you use the same twist directions for all wire joins.


And, that you attach and negative of a car battery to the circuit.
you may
Title: Nikola Tesla's Radiant Energy Part 3
Post by: evostars on August 24, 2018, 05:57:47 PM
The final part in the three part series about Nikola Tesla's Radiant energy:

https://youtu.be/XaK49Am1yNk

I hope this will inspire many.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: AlienGrey on August 25, 2018, 04:28:24 PM
Hi evostars ,
I full understand you,  because i have the same feelings inside me  , i really like to share what i discover and learn , but lot of people are not full honesty because only try get some vantage from hard work from others . Sometimes a simple thank is enough to fill our inner inside but even that is so much to lot of people .  seems most like live in the "dark"

Good luck to your research

cheers
Nelson i realy appreciate your efforts and appreciate your work that you do, I to don't mind sharing but some folk on some of the treads expect too much I'm no exploiter of others work I do I have many talents in the electronics industry and was a EIT field engineer for many years.
I did a few years ago faff around for many a happy hour trying to get some where with your experiments but alas no such luck even tried some of Eric Dollard's learning videos but the told me nothing . Most people need some help some where and thats where this tread comes in Thank you !
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Belfior on August 27, 2018, 03:48:28 PM
I think Master Ivo is getting somewhere and actually discovering the real basics. I think a natural continuum could be a modern look on Gustave Le Bonn’s research regarding dissimilation of mattter and how electricity seems to be a biproduct of that. One example is light hitting a metal surface producing radiation and when that radiation hits another metal surface it produces voltage.

His books ”Evolution of Matter” and ”Evolution of Energy” are real eye openers and he explains all his theories by experiments so it is not just his lips flapping.

His experiments done with modern technology would make a hell of a video series. I can see his ideas overlapping Tesla’s radiant energy patents
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: AlienGrey on August 30, 2018, 12:40:23 AM
You  might find this little circuit useful it's a down counter BCD it can easy be used as the cap charge circuit driver and in the cap discharge circuit driver circuit so get designing and building and testing. 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: KeanuReev on September 06, 2018, 07:20:19 AM
the cap charge circuit driver and in the cap discharg
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on September 06, 2018, 02:25:58 PM
Hi ppl ,
I share the circuit diagram used to made my tests with pancake bifilar coil like i show in the videos i made .
Hope interested people could duplicate them . Ivo like we talk , this is my contribution. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ytg_B9Vs60
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCYeErWACwA

all the best to everwone
Title: Thanks Nelson!
Post by: evostars on September 06, 2018, 03:27:36 PM
Thanks For your great contribution to the community Neslon!
I labeled the components for easy reference.

I will be working at this on my workbench on  the open-source-energy.org forum.

Ivo

ps: It says, "Floating ground" between C3 and the pulse signal
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on September 06, 2018, 03:33:19 PM
First thoughts:

C1 is parallel over the circuit, looks like a pure DC, stabilizer, being discharged over the L2 coil by the pulsing mosfet.

L2 looks like an bifilar coil, with a center tap. C5 is parallel over 1 winding of the bifilar coil (could make it resonant?)

This (pulsed mosfet) produces negative inductive spikes on the high side (and middle tap) of L2.

The negative inductive spikes (back EMF) are charging the capacitors C3 and C4 (and c5?)

C3 is series connected with bifilar coil L1 and C1.
The inductive spike will bring these series connected parts into resonance (?), producing an AC signal , So the Foating ground is fluctuating indeed.

the pulse signal, is created by the oscillations .

It is not clear if L1 and L2 are coupled, I guess not.

D2 and D3 pass the negative cycle of the resonant L1 coil, to L2 Timing seems essential.

C1 and C2 pass AC block DC, so the mosfet sees DC with an AC signal on it (?)

So far, my first insights, This has been pure guessing.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on September 06, 2018, 03:55:39 PM
First thoughts:

C1 is parallel over the circuit, looks like a pure DC, stabilizer, being discharged over the L2 coil by the pulsing mosfet.

L2 looks like an bifilar coil, with a center tap. C5 is parallel over 1 winding of the bifilar coil (could make it resonant?)

This (pulsed mosfet) produces negative inductive spikes on the high side (and middle tap) of L2.

The negative inductive spikes (back EMF) are charging the capacitors C3 and C4 (and c5?)

C3 is series connected with bifilar coil L1 and C1.
The inductive spike will bring these series connected parts into resonance (?), producing an AC signal , So the Foating ground is fluctuating indeed.

the pulse signal, is created by the oscillations .

It is not clear if L1 and L2 are coupled, I guess not.

D2 and D3 pass the negative cycle of the resonant L1 coil, to L2 Timing seems essential.

C1 and C2 pass AC block DC, so the mosfet sees DC with an AC signal on it (?)

So far, my first insights, This has been pure guessing.
Hi Evo,
Sorry i forget to mention the secondary coil L3, which is a pancake coil as well, to stack in the order L1 L2 L3 .

cheers
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on September 06, 2018, 04:45:35 PM
Thanks Nelson  ;D

that makes a lot more sense.

I guess this also means the pulse diving the gate of the mosfet is generated by an pulse transformer, driven by an external pulse
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on September 06, 2018, 04:50:03 PM
Hi Evo,
Sorry i forget to mention the secondary coil L3, which is a pancake coil as well, to stack in the order L1 L2 L3 .

Does this mean,  in my additional drawing, L1 = L2 and l2 = L1  to keep the stack in the right order,
correct?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on September 06, 2018, 11:36:33 PM
c3 c4 and c5 are probably 0.1 or 0.22uF 100v xicon greenies
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: hartiberlin on September 07, 2018, 06:19:38 AM
Hi Nelson,Many thanks for the circuit.
And then L3 is the output coil ?Then it makes much more sense...;)

Also is there a connection at the top where the diode goes to the Mosfet ?Is the diode cathode also  connected to the 2 caps there ?
What is the circuit doing ? Just oscilating and pumping energy into the L3 output coil ?Why is it then so efficient ? Because of the floating ground ?

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on September 07, 2018, 09:27:32 AM
it's a radiant circuit. a capacitor is overcharged with negative voltage than internally discharges, creating an impulse. this is the key.
it's all tuned.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Belfior on September 07, 2018, 11:35:36 AM
it's a radiant circuit. a capacitor is overcharged with negative voltage than internally discharges, creating an impulse. this is the key.
it's all tuned.

I'm wondering if using the back-EMF is why devices like Moray's kept cold while running? If you used his device to power bulbs they were bright white. If you used the grid they were yellowish.

If the back-EMF takes energy from the ambient then it could be in a different form than what we create with dynamos. Like light is light, but then there is laser, UV etc

The beauty is that scientists agree the energy is there in the vacuum. It is the radiation from EVERY source. I think this is the "Ether". Then you create a situation that Nature wants to equalize. Then you don't need to figure out where the energy comes from or how. Nature will put it there. Like there is no energy in a battery. Then you connect the terminals and energy appears. This is so trivial to us, that we don't give it a second thought. The point being that the energy is not there, but it appears when Nature tries to equalize both levels
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on September 07, 2018, 11:57:57 AM
yes the Aether is disturbed by the disruptive capacitor discharge impulse from the bifilar pancake coil.
And nature equalises the pressure difference.
 at the same time there is a magnetic vortex
and a resonant ringing of the Aether.

the pressure becomes negative from the negative voltage discharge, and creates a vacuum, or low Aether pressure.

like opening a vacuum jar, under water.
the water pressure instantly fills the vacuum of the jar
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Belfior on September 07, 2018, 12:32:28 PM
yes the Aether is disturbed by the disruptive capacitor discharge impulse from the bifilar pancake coil.
And nature equalises the pressure difference.
 at the same time there is a magnetic vortex
and a resonant ringing of the Aether.

the pressure becomes negative from the negative voltage discharge, and creates a vacuum, or low Aether pressure.

like opening a vacuum jar, under water.
the water pressure instantly fills the vacuum of the jar

If you put the back-EMF into the cap and the other side of the cap to the ground what happens? Will the ground supply "more positive" electrons to the other side or positive charge appears from "somewhere"
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on September 09, 2018, 04:41:23 PM
Diagram update
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on September 09, 2018, 09:20:41 PM
L3 is also tuned by a capacitor
the whole system is resonant(or interacting on all levels) , so tuning is key
"earth" is still a floating ground. (reference)


did a test with a different setup, and got a disruptive discharge in L2 just before the mosfet turned on in L1 and at the negative maximum of L3(resonant). first I thought it was the inductive spike after turning the mosfet off, but it is before turn on! Why is it happening here, at that specific point in time?
L1 has already lost its magnetic field at this point. what is the trigger, for this event?

also
C3 is parallel over half of L2, using the center tap.
I wonder why. It feels as if it is an energy pump.
will build this the next t days.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: AlienGrey on September 09, 2018, 11:31:17 PM
Hi  I don't know if it's relevant or not but I had a go at Nelsons ''radiant exciter'' thinking it would be easy to get going as i'm not sure about the pancake number of speaker wire turns on his new device. However different ferrite torrid's give entirely different frequency's and ringing problems and BEMF
I suspect unless the correct number of turns are known here and any added coatings it could be a real jigsaw puzzle getting the best results.

Happy days eh ;)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: onepower on September 13, 2018, 05:06:29 PM
Nelson

Thank's for posting your circuit and it is very interesting.  I see you are using the three capacitor series oscillator with an embedded parallel oscillator as in your last circuit. The series bypass has also changed with a similar energy split on the inductive discharge. As if to say if the load wants to inhibit our oscillations then let it and we will simply store part of the energy elsewhere.

Very few people reach the required level of operation to sustain a device using spark gaps. Even less people progress to using discharge tubes such as neon's or threshold detection circuit elements. Almost no one has reduced the required effects to solid state operation so far as I know... well done.

The next level is to remove the switch at which point switching is replaced with field interactions and operations. I suspect it follows the same logic as a logic gate would. If something X happens and something Y happens then Z must happen unless X or Y have changed in some way in which case Z does not happen. In this case, conceptually, many circuit elements or components we are familiar with could take any number of forms so long as conduction occurs and the effects remain. It's kind of mind boggling when we think about it because these effects could appear in organic form or engineered crystalline/substrate structures to some extent on some level that most would never think to question. We have many options and are only limited by our imagination as to how far we could take this.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: AlienGrey on September 13, 2018, 09:09:08 PM
onepower realy, when ever i have brought up this subject on the Dally tread I have been slagged of and bad mouthed by those who should have known better but with nelson it's a learning curve.
Nut knowledge in this subject can be dangerous.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: onepower on September 14, 2018, 03:25:41 AM
AG
Quote
onepower realy, when ever i have brought up this subject on the Dally tread I have been slagged of and bad mouthed by those who should have known better but with nelson it's a learning curve.
Nut knowledge in this subject can be dangerous.

Your post is incoherent gibberish, what subject are you talking about, why were you slagged, why is it a learning curve with Nelson and wtf does "Nut knowledge in this subject can be dangerous" mean? ... are you on drugs?.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: AlienGrey on September 14, 2018, 11:57:35 PM
AG
Your post is incoherent gibberish, what subject are you talking about, why were you slagged, why is it a learning curve with Nelson and wtf does "Nut knowledge in this subject can be dangerous" mean? ... are you on drugs?.
Onepower;  It's the software it changes words it doesn't like. It should read ''Note  knowledge in this subject can be dangerous".
Stanley Myers, Adrian Gustove (not sure on spelling) and many others for there trouble now deceased and no i'm not on drugs
only the shit America puts in our water and food. Why are you ?

I was referring to the gibberish you wrote ie  ;D
Very few people reach the required level of operation to sustain a device using spark gaps. Even less people progress to using discharge tubes such as neon's or threshold detection circuit elements. Almost no one has reduced the required effects to solid state operation so far as I know... well done.
Is all Tesla did was to charge a capacitor with energy like a TV saw tooth and dump the energy a spike  into a coil (Tesla coil) producing a huge HF fly back pulse. Not to difficult, yet many on the Dally thread thought it just sucked it out of the air as static.

Perhaps being as you say you know so much about the workings of this phenomena and it's place with in Quantum physics you could explain things like BEMF and how peek return can be achieved ie OU and frequency and materials that could be used and how magnetic Lenz law can be removed and would this produce a radiant circuit we could use to our advantage ?

AG
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: onepower on September 15, 2018, 04:17:35 AM
AG
Quote
Onepower;  It's the software it changes words it doesn't like. It should read ''Note  knowledge in this subject can be dangerous".
Stanley Myers, Adrian Gustove (not sure on spelling) and many others for there trouble now deceased and no i'm not on drugs
only the shit America puts in our water and food. Why are you ?

Okay now you starting to make "some sense" and I use this term liberally. I would simply say there are people who go through life scared of things they cannot control and there are people who live there life because we only get one.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on September 15, 2018, 01:23:02 PM
Got the disruptive discharge into a coil, but  fail to understand how it got there in the first place.
anybody got a clue, why it is there right before the pulse turns on?
more info on ciruit and setup in  video:
https://youtu.be/lByUMEg0OHs     (https://youtu.be/lByUMEg0OHs)

could the magnetic fields of the coils be acting as a diode?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: itsu on September 16, 2018, 10:36:11 PM

Evo,

I could not replicate your bump at your ?, see screenshot.

Yellow is gate signal
Blue is L2 (top) signal
green is current through the MOSFET (at source)

But i think you need to be more specific on your used components / circuit

Itsu

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on September 17, 2018, 02:52:52 AM
Article of interest:
https://ec.kemet.com/self-healing-capacitors-fix
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: onepower on September 17, 2018, 06:38:48 AM
Evostars
Quote
Got the disruptive discharge into a coil, but  fail to understand how it got there in the first place.
anybody got a clue, why it is there right before the pulse turns on?
https://youtu.be/lByUMEg0OHs   


You have a clue... you explained it in your video in between the two and three minute mark in my opinion... you just didn't realize it.

I rationalize problems in a way similar to the process Nikola Tesla used which relates to thought experiments and metacognition. I imagine I have to justify my thoughts or opinions to an imaginary person in front of me much more intelligent that myself. So I start explaining myself and I find I keep getting caught in my own contradictions, I keep veering off into speculation however sometimes as my reasoning becomes more refined with each justification the answer becomes apparent. In this way, in some sense, my beliefs become irrelevant and my justification must rely on logic and reason.

We could think of it this way... in a perfect world we could observe almost anything as it is in reality then apply logic and reason working through the problem and understand almost anything. However this is not the case and in fact not even remotely true in reality. We always carry are own baggage, beliefs and perspective with us and unless we can move past this were not going anywhere.


If you want to learn something I would suggest you watch your video again and analyse each of your statements with an open mind. Write your statements down in point form then follow the line of reason and justify it for yourself. I mean you almost had it nailed down and I could see you working through the problem in your mind and then you jumped to conclusions near the end. In any case I liked your video and it is nice to see people who I think are honest and sincere.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Belfior on September 17, 2018, 10:13:11 AM
I like Ivo’s videos, because he is interesred in the same phenomena as I am. He creates an experiment and tries to make sense of the results. He just needs input from other experimenters like we all do. This input steers you hopefully towards real discoveries.

If Ivo gets into effects Tesla described we have antigravity by summer...

Ivo needs a Patreon page. I would pay a monthly fee for the videos
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: onepower on September 17, 2018, 06:00:37 PM
Belfior
Quote
I like Ivo’s videos, because he is interesred in the same phenomena as I am. He creates an experiment and tries to make sense of the results. He just needs input from other experimenters like we all do. This input steers you hopefully towards real discoveries.

It may help to describe what radiant energy is and how to produce it from someone who has real experience with it.

My first real experience with radiant energy used a 100kV DC supply (Van de Graaff generator), a choke coil and an 8" stainless steel sphere. I found that if the DC supply discharged through a quenched spark gap into the choke and sphere. The sphere would make a pinging noise and eject physical matter from the surface as a super fine dust. When grounded plates were suspended nearby the plates became charged to a very high DC potential.

How can this be?... it is very simple. The supply discharges a massive number of free electrons across the spark gap in an extremely small time frame into the choke. The electron density is very high in the choke which pushes the electrons into the sphere in one big slug within a small time frame. This creates a high density wave of electrons travelling over the surface of the sphere. The drastic change in potential on the surface due to the very high charge density also causes physical material to be ejected from the surface because like charges repel. Opposite charges attract and like charges repel.

Think about it...
1)a material becomes highly charged within an extremely small time frame,
2)the charge density becomes so high so fast it starts tearing apart the surface of the material due to the massive repulsion forces,
3)Very small pieces of physical material which are highly charged are now repelled from the surface due to repulsion forces.
4)The ejected material carries the same high density of charges with it on it's surface which is why it charges anything it strikes.
5)We can now see a simple mechanism whereby large amounts of energy can be transferred through a space without a wire conductor. Understand each individual highly charged particle is a "conductor" of energy.

This is the mechanism Tesla used to produce radiant energy and create radiant matter. This is literally radiant matter as small pieces of matter ejected from a surface which carry a very high surface charge thus a great deal of energy with each piece of matter. Do you now understand why Tesla said the effect produced a "stinging sensation" which I have experienced as well?. It is very simple and is no different than a pith ball experiment where a little tin foil covered ball oscillates between a charged sphere and a grounded sphere transferring the surface charge or energy in the process. The process is identical and only the scale has changed, in effect my large highly charged sphere was simply ejecting a stream of very small highly charged pith balls. Obviously my sphere can be replaced with a single wire, a coil of wire or a metal plate so long as the effect remains.

My point here is on perspective, how could everyone misunderstand something so simple?, how could they miss something found in every high school textbook?, how could so many have such a poor understanding or misunderstanding of even the most basic principals of electrodynamics?. It all comes down to the fact that like charges and charged objects repel one another then progresses from there.

I'm not sure how or why everyone has managed to turn something relatively simple into such a god damn fiasco of false beliefs and misunderstanding however I do know we need to change what were doing. Stop over-complicating everything, understand the basics then build a logical process or sequence of events on it.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on September 17, 2018, 11:52:15 PM
 :-*
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: AlienGrey on September 18, 2018, 02:15:02 AM
Radiant energy  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SBcezHASts it's dielectric energy
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: onepower on September 18, 2018, 02:16:21 AM
TK
Your a HV guy, have you noticed these effects?.

I have found the effect I described is based on the following requirements:
1) The supply must be HV and preferably have a negative potential.
2) The supply should discharge the maximum energy in a minimum time frame with no reversal of the current. 
3) The input is not AC it is DC and whatever energy enters the sphere through the spark gap is radiated with no arcs or sparks from the sphere which should be avoided.

You will know when it happens because the sphere will make a sharp "ping" noise on each discharge as an indication that the material has physically contracted and set the sphere itself into a material oscillation. If it does not oscillate then the rise in potential is too slow or the magnitude of the potential is too low. It's a sledge hammer effect, nail it as hard as you can as fast as you can with no reversal forcing energy to radiate.

This should sound familiar and I suspect Ed Gray based his technology on a similar effect. Nobody should think they can create an arc discharge from two electrodes at different potentials inside a copper cylinder and think the induced voltage on the copper cylinder can power a 50 hp motor... that is absurd. Induced by what, from where, by what means?, we have 100 years of experience with induction and it simply does not compute therefore it must be something else.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: AlienGrey on September 18, 2018, 02:25:31 AM
This explains it and how to make it   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DpZ5Ecgt9c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE39wQ7Ty7Q
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: AlienGrey on September 18, 2018, 08:36:04 AM
:-*
Tinsel and others it doesn't appear to be about 'perpetual motion' or creating or the ability to destroying energy
but more about charge force energy that comes from our sun that's also connected to the magnetic radiation
from our planets earth. All are connected.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: onepower on September 19, 2018, 02:02:17 AM
AG
Quote
Tinsel and others it doesn't appear to be about 'perpetual motion' or creating or the ability to destroying energy
but more about charge force energy that comes from our sun that's also connected to the magnetic radiation
from our planets earth. All are connected.

Nobody has ever given me even one example of anything anywhere in the known universe that is not in perpetual motion. My opinion is this, prove everything is not in perpetual motion by giving me one example of something which is not. Otherwise people may want to consider why they are spreading misinformation about something they obviously do not understand.

On the high voltage discharge into a sphere experiment I mentioned prior we could infer a few things by way of logic and reason I didn't state.
- A single discharge produced an audible ping noise on the sphere thus something must have been set into oscillation.
- why did it produce a material oscillation, why does anything?, something must have moved in some way.
- Why does anything move?, a force must have been applied in some way.
- If a force produced the oscillation, a resonant "ping" noise then this ping should have a frequency of oscillation... in fact it did.
- Now if we understand basic resonant systems one would think the time period of the discharge would correlate to the frequency of the oscillation. Not as speculation but more so a basic understanding of how and why resonant systems act as they do. We always see a periodic force applied to something, the time period generally smaller than the frequency of oscillation of the thing to which the force is applied.

Which begs the question, has anyone ever thought to measure resonant frequency of a metal sphere and tailor the discharge time period to that frequency?... I did. It would seem obvious however that does not mean anyone has ever tried it and the obviousness of something generally appears after the fact that it has happened and seldom before. Not unlike Faraday thinking what if I put this coil next to that other one, what would happen?, we know the rest of that story.

In my opinion this is the wonderful thing about our imagination, science and experiments... the what if?. We see something happen and then later we think...what if?. My theory on this is pretty straight forward, if you ever run out of what if's then that is the moment you have stopped learning and your done.

Did you notice how my posts work AG?, we provide something in the way of useful information or insight into something then try to justify it by way of reason to help other people... you should try it.




Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: AlienGrey on September 19, 2018, 04:18:47 AM
Thanks for the 'rant' onepower but i haven't any intention on engaging into any of your thoughts nor am I going to
be coerced into publishing any synopsis or hypothesis as I don't see  as i need to prove anything here  to any one,
and I have not seen any of your work and if you have any ideas you consider worth while I would suggest you test
them out at your own expense and then do what you will with them, and to be honest I have no idea what your
trying to say other than betide any one who has a different view to you, but that's your problem not mine.

By by ;D

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: onepower on September 19, 2018, 06:28:03 AM
AG
Quote
Thanks for the 'rant' onepower but i haven't any intention on engaging into any of your thoughts nor am I going to
be coerced into publishing any synopsis or hypothesis as I don't see  as i need to prove anything here  to any one,

So my insight into experiments I have made in the past is a "rant" to somehow "coerce" something out of you that remains undefined?... got it.

Quote
and I have not seen any of your work and if you have any ideas you consider worth while I would suggest you test
them out at your own expense and then do what you will with them,

Test them?... I just explained my tests didn't I?. An Electro-dynamic force producing a physical force as an oscillation which then leads to the radiation of charged matter... which part did you not understand?. I test everything, wtf did you think all my posts were about?.

Quote
and to be honest I have no idea what your trying to say other than betide any one who has a different view to you, but that's your problem not mine.

You have no idea what I'm trying to say?, I'm not sure how I could make it any more clear, do I need to draw a picture for you?.
So I reviewed your last 50 posts and I have concluded you bring nothing of substance to the table, no offense however the facts remain and yes this conversation is over.



Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: AlienGrey on September 19, 2018, 12:02:10 PM
AG
So my insight into experiments I have made in the past is a "rant" to somehow "coerce" something out of you that remains undefined?... got it.
The thread and others is full of half and unfinished Transverse wave prototypes thaty have missed the point

Test them?... I just explained my tests didn't I?. An Electro-dynamic force producing a physical force as an oscillation which then leads to the radiation of charged matter... which part did you not understand?. I test everything, wth did you think all my posts were about?.
 
Why do you used the word understand it's a legal word to stand under someones control 'enslavement'' why not comprehend ?


You have no idea what I'm trying to say?, I'm not sure how I could make it any more clear, do I need to draw a picture for you?.
So I reviewed your last 50 posts and I have concluded you bring nothing of substance to the table, no offense however the facts remain and yes this conversation is over.
until i have something of substance to crow about, that's right!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Belfior on September 19, 2018, 02:35:21 PM
- why did it produce a material oscillation, why does anything?, something must have moved in some way.
- Why does anything move?, a force must have been applied in some way.

In my opinion this is the wonderful thing about our imagination, science and experiments... the what if?. We see something happen and then later we think...what if?. My theory on this is pretty straight forward, if you ever run out of what if's then that is the moment you have stopped learning and your done.


electricity, heat, light and movement is how dissimilation of matter manifests itself. My suggestion is that different type of effect manifests as heat and some other as light.

The discharge might be so violent, that it actually moves the matter. This is why it resonates and creates air pressure.

I totally agree that imagination, science and experiment leads to revelation and new technologies. The sad part is that imagination is not valued in most cases. This means we go in circles repeating the old crap that might not be correct.
Title: Tuning the circuit
Post by: evostars on September 21, 2018, 02:46:22 PM
So far as I have seen,
C1 and C5 are DC decoupling capacitors. they can be made big (bigger than 10uF)
C2 is a balancing capacitor and must remain small (<1nF). For now I keep this one open.
C3 Dont know yet what this one does. It could be clear after tuning.

C4 is very important. This one tunes the series resonance of L2 and C4.
I have been playing mostly with this cap.

C6 (not shown on circuit) is a parallel tuning capacitor over L3

The ground at the source, is not earth ground, but a floating ground, like a copper mass, or long wire.

L1 L2 L3 are 3 bifilar pancake coils, stacked.

L1 is high side pulsed by the mosfet, producing negative inductive spikes (back EMF) into C2 C3 and C4.

L2 becomes series resonant with C4.

L2 also shows a disruptive discharge right before the mosfet is turned on again. This is also dependent on L3 (as shown in previous posted Youtube video).
L3 captures this radiant energy pulse(at the right frequency). and at the same time is resonant from L1 (and L2).

L3 is the output coil. (tuned by parallel cap C6)

Tuning is critical in this circuit.
First the L3 coil needs a resistive load, without parallel cap. The current is measured (for its maximum) through the resistor.
The current through L3 is dependent on the frequency of the disruptive discharges of L2.

This is where I am at at this stage. The tuning of L2/C4 to get the most current in L3.

After this frequency is found, the L3 coil can be tuned by a parallel capacitor, to the frequency found (max current).

then the radiant current, is combined with the resonant voltage, and power should be measured. but this all needs very careful tuning.
Title: Re: Tuning the circuit
Post by: AlienGrey on September 21, 2018, 03:38:54 PM
So far as I have seen,
C1 and C5 are DC decoupling capacitors. they can be made big (bigger than 10uF)
C2 is a balancing capacitor and must remain small (<1nF). For now I keep this one open.
C3 Dont know yet what this one does. It could be clear after tuning.

C4 is very important. This one tunes the series resonance of L2 and C4.
I have been playing mostly with this cap.

C6 (not shown on circuit) is a parallel tuning capacitor over L3

The ground at the source, is not earth ground, but a floating ground, like a copper mass, or long wire.

L1 L2 L3 are 3 bifilar pancake coils, stacked.

L1 is high side pulsed by the mosfet, producing negative inductive spikes (back EMF) into C2 C3 and C4.

L2 becomes series resonant with C4.

L2 also shows a disruptive discharge right before the mosfet is turned on again. This is also dependent on L3 (as shown in previous posted Youtube video).
L3 captures this radiant energy pulse(at the right frequency). and at the same time is resonant from L1 (and L2).

L3 is the output coil. (tuned by parallel cap C6)

Tuning is critical in this circuit.
First the L3 coil needs a resistive load, without parallel cap. The current is measured (for its maximum) through the resistor.
The current through L3 is dependent on the frequency of the disruptive discharges of L2.

This is where I am at at this stage. The tuning of L2/C4 to get the most current in L3.

After this frequency is found, the L3 coil can be tuned by a parallel capacitor, to the frequency found (max current).

then the radiant current, is combined with the resonant voltage, and power should be measured. but this all needs very careful tuning.
Evostars Hi re the coils I had a look at some of Nelsons video's and it looks like the top coil has 20 turns or winds
How many do you recommend with your experience to initial testing ?

AG
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on September 24, 2018, 10:16:23 PM
L1 is a bifilar pancake coil with much inductance, so many wingings is good. Inductance can be increased by using the right ferrite.
High inductance relates to the possibility of a strong magnetic field.
A strong magnetic field can produce a powerful back emf/inductive spike.

L2 and L3 are primary and secondary and need to be equal mass.
this because the radiant energy produced by the disruptive discharge of L2 induces a current into L3 at the right frequency.
equal mass gives the most efficient energy transfer.

L3 can have more windimgs than L2 resulting in more inductance, and a higher voltage, that when combined with the induced current produces more power.

C3 might be to give a stable ground for the series resonance of C4 and L2. 
so I will make it larger and see what happens (increasing c5 was the same idea and wotked).
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on October 22, 2018, 08:42:44 PM
I'm still workimg on Nelson's radiamt circuit.
seems I was on the right track, but its all slightly different.
L2 is series resonant with C5
C4 is charged by the back emf/inductive spike from L1
C4 is discharging parallel over L2/C5 when the mosfet turns on again, giving the disruptive discharge.
The mosfet therefore needs to have a very small Rds.

L3 sees the kick of this capacitor discharge. Which is a radiant energy event.

I will keep working until it all more clear, and then its time for another youtube video.
I feel blessed for being able to make so much progress.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on October 27, 2018, 04:06:43 PM
I'm still workimg on Nelson's radiamt circuit.
seems I was on the right track, but its all slightly different.
L2 is series resonant with C5
C4 is charged by the back emf/inductive spike from L1
C4 is discharging parallel over L2/C5 when the mosfet turns on again, giving the disruptive discharge.
The mosfet therefore needs to have a very small Rds.

L3 sees the kick of this capacitor discharge. Which is a radiant energy event.

I will keep working until it all more clear, and then its time for another youtube video.
I feel blessed for being able to make so much progress.


As I still dont understand fully how this works. I keep learning from my mistakes... So this info might be wrong... Ill have to make it work first before I share this kind of information.
Still doesnt work... but learning along the way
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on November 16, 2018, 06:04:17 PM
My new video about high side switching a coil.
This also explains the "earth" at the source of nelsons circuit.
still working to get it to work.
Have reached the disruptive discharge in L2!

 https://youtu.be/Asa2RuubKWM  (https://youtu.be/Asa2RuubKWM)
Title: new vudeo about longitudinal current
Post by: evostars on November 22, 2018, 07:53:45 PM
New video will premiere in one hour:

  https://youtu.be/MF1lVtAgzVM  (https://youtu.be/MF1lVtAgzVM)
Title: Re: new vudeo about longitudinal current
Post by: Belfior on November 22, 2018, 10:43:38 PM
New video will premiere in one hour:

  https://youtu.be/MF1lVtAgzVM  (https://youtu.be/MF1lVtAgzVM)

I'm wondering is this your own version of the disruptive discharge, because I think how Tesla did it was he had a 25-30kV dynamo that fed large capacitors. He then discharged the cap over a spark into L1 and had a short secondary inside it. Spark was killed with 2 opposing magnets, so he could get single direction discharges without any back waves/sparks.

He is claimed to write that over 100microS pulses you could feel on your face even behind metal plates. Pulses under 100microS the effect was lost and you got other effects like cold breezes.

Are you pursuing getting that negative spike into L1 and to L2? Maybe it is obvious, but you have a lot of gear in the videos :)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on November 25, 2018, 04:04:02 PM
I'm wondering is this your own version of the disruptive discharge, because I think how Tesla did it was he had a 25-30kV dynamo that fed large capacitors. He then discharged the cap over a spark into L1 and had a short secondary inside it. Spark was killed with 2 opposing magnets, so he could get single direction discharges without any back waves/sparks.

He is claimed to write that over 100microS pulses you could feel on your face even behind metal plates. Pulses under 100microS the effect was lost and you got other effects like cold breezes.

Are you pursuing getting that negative spike into L1 and to L2? Maybe it is obvious, but you have a lot of gear in the videos :)
The spike I show is from L2 (nelsons circuit) still working on it
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on December 06, 2018, 06:20:11 PM
I found out, the best way to impulse a bifilar coil, is to impulse it from both ends, one side positive impulse other side negative impulse, but simultaneously.
Nelson rocha's latest shared circuit does this.

It not only does that, but in the same coil that is impulsed, is also series resonance creating high currents.

the impulsed series resonant coil, is a primary.
The secondary, is inductive coupled, so sees the high currents. But is also in the radiant field induced by the impulses.

Without the current, resonance can easily be tuned into the secondary, as you will be able to see what you are doing on s scope. But the high current, prevents this... It seems to be tuned differently...

So with the current in the secondary, your tuning blind... adding capacitance until it resonates with the impulses of the primary.

When tuned, this could deliver voltage in a high current coil. in phase.
So far only theory...
only need to tune...
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: mzp on December 30, 2018, 01:11:40 PM
Hi,

I wrote special Audacity plugin to create AM pulsed freq. https://github.com/MichaelZP/SyntheticSecretSound
I can remake it for this project on requested suggestion
evostars can you please check, and show how signal and connection diagram should look?
Thank you
Michael
Title: new video on bifilar coil and high side switch
Post by: evostars on April 14, 2019, 08:44:01 PM
I have made a new video with extra info on the bifilar coil and the highside switch.
this is needed for my new circuit, that will be explained in the soon to be uploaded video
https://youtu.be/Y0TJ84Rbx6Q     (https://youtu.be/Y0TJ84Rbx6Q)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: AlienGrey on April 15, 2019, 10:06:03 PM
some shout: The Earth is flat! you fools,  it has been proven! the earth is the center of the galaxy! you fools it has been proven.

clearly we live on the same earth,  and we now believe its a sphere (most of us).

maybe in the future we find out its a hollow sphere,  and we live in the inside.

What I'm trying to say,  is its all a matter of perspective.

you can see the electrons and atoms as particles, because it was proven,  as was the flat earth.

I never believed this to be true. all is light,  all is made of light fields and vortexes. particles are made up to under stand the complexity of the fields easier. but its only a trick,  that has its limitations. even the dielectric and magnetic fields are made of the same stuff. light.

please believe your own truth, which ever works best for you.
http://radio.offplanetmedia.net/2017/03/19/dr-shmuel-asher-nasas-first-major-disclosure-the-dome/

Well there ya go !
Title: Radiant power from Solid state Tesla hairpin circuit
Post by: evostars on April 19, 2019, 03:53:54 PM
I made an advanced solid state hairpin circuit producing radiant power.

It is based on a high side switched coil (L1) producing a negative back EMF impulse.
This impulse is injected into a series resonant bifilar pancake coil (L2).
The – BEMF impulse, replaces the sparkgap.

This L2 coil also has a positive DC offset, charged by the – back EMF.
The L2 coil equals the stout bars in the hairpin circuit.

L2 is loose coupled (4,5cm) to L3 (bigger bifilar pancake coil) that is parallel resonant. So both L2 and L3 resonate on the same frequency. L2 is series resonant (low impedance, so impulse can pass to positive of power suppy, giving the L2 a kick) and L3 is parallel resonant (high impedance).

L3 is parallel loaded with a 28W 230V light bulb, that lights up brightly.
The current and voltage of L3 are in phase. This is rather unique, as it is 4,5 cm distanced from the series resonant L2 (current and voltage 90 degrees out of phase). Radiant power is produced.

Here is the link to the video explaining it all. All info that is needed for replication is included.
https://youtu.be/1Flj1i0zQ-8
 (https://youtu.be/1Flj1i0zQ-8)

Here is the link to the schematic:
https://imgur.com/a/sh1JOwE (https://imgur.com/a/sh1JOwE)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: magpwr on May 04, 2019, 11:06:15 AM
Hi everyone,
I have attempt to replicate Nelson Rocha circuit but using existing kapanadze coil.
This circuit was design by Nelson Rocha.He deserve the full credit.

The circuit diagram was modified a little shown with little cut in diagram for non pancake coil.

Today i have achieved a major breakthough 5 times Amps reading at 1Amps using clamp meter in A/C mode as compared to the input 12volts from supply DC Amps 0.2Amps using multimeter 10Amps connection.
Around 90Vpp detected using scope probe across C5 0.27uf capacitor.
Probe after UF5408 positive,probe ground between C5 and L2.Not tried reversing probe  yet.This time i am using 50% duty for the isolated powered mosfet driver TC4452 or IXDN604.Currently using mosfet driver IXDI614 at 50% duty.
May need to swap either primary or secondary wire if current is high.
The DC current dropped further to around 0.17Amps once scope probe is disconnected since scope ground is link to earth pin.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7gyI99wpTI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7gyI99wpTI)
Please read expanded youtube video description.
All diodes used are UF5408 1000volts rated please use diode no lesser than 600volts likewise for certain capacitors please use suitable HV rating.

----------------------------------------------
Please take note of the valuable pointer Signal generator output frequency at 12.2khz to mosfet driver verses the output frequency 24.39khz.


Phase can't be compared as i do not have a current probe and a differential probe 1300volts isolated with ohmite resistor 0.1Ohms high watt for scope.This is on the way. ;) Using just a 2kv probe 100:1 at the moment.

----------------------------
Just took a screenshot of probe across L2 coil only(Kapanadze multilayer coil).
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: lancaIV on May 04, 2019, 01:01:35 PM
magpwr, a fine result !
                                               
                                                      DC input but AC output

                                       
                                                 Calculation and conclusion :

https://www.google.com/search?q=kanarev+pulse+power&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-m (https://www.google.com/search?q=kanarev+pulse+power&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-m)

                                                   Go to " Pulse Power" : page 6


                              " Sv2 " S= Duty ratio   = pulse repetition period / pulse duration
Average 3 V and average 0,5 A  can become maximal 300 V and maximal 50 A ( for this given example)
       
                                    -----------------------------------------------
           
          Attention to differ "Duty ratio S " from " Duty factor ( or cycle)  Z"
                                                                      Z= 1/S

                                   -------------------------------------------------
                                      Really understanding this statement by context :
                                                         
                                                    1,5 Watt DC ~ 15000 Watt AC by PWM


                      Voltage and Amperage design by Amplitude,  Frequency and Time modulation


                                                    Minkowski " point of view" :
                           Einstein,  E= mcv2 ( m= M1-M2).            Tesla, E= tcv2.           " - "= t ?

                                                      RAUM-ZEIT expansion or compression
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on May 09, 2019, 07:41:11 PM
Hi everyone,
I have attempt to replicate Nelson Rocha circuit but using existing kapanadze coil.
This circuit was design by Nelson Rocha.He deserve the full credit.

The circuit diagram was modified a little shown with little cut in diagram for non pancake coil.

Today i have achieved a major breakthough 5 times Amps reading at 1Amps using clamp meter in A/C mode as compared to the input 12volts from supply DC Amps 0.2Amps using multimeter 10Amps connection.
Around 90Vpp detected using scope probe across C5 0.27uf capacitor.
Probe after UF5408 positive,probe ground between C5 and L2.Not tried reversing probe  yet.This time i am using 50% duty for the isolated powered mosfet driver TC4452 or IXDN604.Currently using mosfet driver IXDI614 at 50% duty.
May need to swap either primary or secondary wire if current is high.
The DC current dropped further to around 0.17Amps once scope probe is disconnected since scope ground is link to earth pin.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7gyI99wpTI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7gyI99wpTI)
Please read expanded youtube video description.
All diodes used are UF5408 1000volts rated please use diode no lesser than 600volts likewise for certain capacitors please use suitable HV rating.

----------------------------------------------
Please take note of the valuable pointer Signal generator output frequency at 12.2khz to mosfet driver verses the output frequency 24.39khz.


Phase can't be compared as i do not have a current probe and a differential probe 1300volts isolated with ohmite resistor 0.1Ohms high watt for scope.This is on the way. ;) Using just a 2kv probe 100:1 at the moment.

----------------------------
Just took a screenshot of probe across L2 coil only(Kapanadze multilayer coil).

Thanks by the support :) hope you enjoy test it because you will have a lot of fun .

Cheers
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: AlienGrey on May 09, 2019, 08:50:46 PM
Hi i just picked a ferox transformer I made some time ago with a 45 turn winding and a 0.068uf capacitor 1500v ac
and I ONLY GET 90 PHASE SHIFT AT RESONANCE very similar in wave form to magpwr's pic.

I'm also a bit confused by the size of IVO's coils that are quite large only I would like to stick to Nelsons original design
as his is rather more compact and easyer to fabricate in the den (hobby room) and it would make an exalent out side light.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on May 12, 2019, 12:34:03 PM
The Radiant solid state circuit I shared on 19 April 2019 has more possibilities.

It can also be used for Health benefits. Nikola Tesla described it already in 1898 in Buffalo. A link to this document can be found in the video description.
When the Load (28W lamp) is removed from the L3 coil, the energy  keeps surrounding the L3 coil in its electric fields. You can use this Radiant energy for health benefits.

Link to the video “Radiant Health Radiant Health Benefits From Solid State Tesla Hairpin Circuit”:
https://youtu.be/5uaNpeYKO74 (https://youtu.be/5uaNpeYKO74)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: magpwr on May 12, 2019, 03:22:39 PM
hi everyone,
I am trying to understand Nelson circuit which was operated by 3 automotive relays powered by 12volts battery which powered 21watt 12volts bulb and yet 21w 12volts bulb connected in series with 12volts battery positive did not light.
This indicated the circuit was drawing very low current.I have also tried shorting the unused 15volts output and yet it not caused the supply current to increase.No idea why.

Today i am showing a modified version of Nelson Rocha circuit.I am surprised the circuit consumed very low current at supply as shown in video like DC OR A/C 20mA via clamp meter.
My cheap power supply after the last self calibration i was not able to get current displayed correctly.
I am now convinced that Nelson circuit used in his video is indeed a working model.
Playing with relays as fast switching device was outside of my comfort zone. :D This is my latest youtube video-
Radiant circuit switched by three 12v relays draws mere 30mAhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BO7N645dT0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BO7N645dT0)


Hope that someone can improved it further as the circuit needs tuning and some modification.
I do hope Nelson can contribute to add to the fun. :D
Neslon video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7EkHm08Te4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7EkHm08Te4)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: AlienGrey on May 12, 2019, 04:13:59 PM
Hi yes I looked at that 5 years ago when I didn't have much spare cash, such is life and employers  :-X

Anyway, the first relay is timing it has a Capacitor and a resister to set up the on-off
time of the next relay and create the 'off' flyback pulse. I wasn't very knowledgeable on the subject-
then and the circuit has a lot of pitfalls.
you could ask Nelson himself or try Mr. Dove on the tube he knows a lot.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: AlienGrey on May 13, 2019, 10:19:33 AM
Here are the original coils not sure if still available, I have included the coil inductance.
and the type of pulse I got.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on May 23, 2019, 10:53:14 AM
function if c1 and c2 reversed gives more power.
adding C5 over L1 makes it possible to tune the impulse (back emf inductive spike) duration. By makimg the duration slightly longer, the voltage drops a bit, and more power can be fed to the cicuit (limited by the avalanche body diode of the mosfet). L2 is reverse connected (see dot)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on February 25, 2020, 01:40:15 AM
just a small note, Im still researching.
I found the radiant circuit, is probably just one half of the system.
I made a compliment circuit, that produces positive impulses and a negative voltage offset,
 by switching the L1 coil at the low side.

So I now have 2 circuits, with 2 L2 coils.
These 2 L2 coils, both have a DC offset.
one L2 is positive , the other is negative.

This way, the L2 coils, act as capacitor plates, when coupled together.
The dielectric field setup up, is then impulsed, positive and negative alternating, 180 degrees separated in phase.
This opens up a whole new set of possibilities.

I'll keep working. and when vital info is gained, I will share again on my youtube channel,
https://www.youtube.com/c/masterivo

Title: new circuit, new video
Post by: evostars on November 20, 2020, 10:35:45 AM
Video will be watchable from november 21 2020; 1:00 AM GMT

It shows my Radiant half bridge circuit. explained into detail, and working.
Longitudinal resonance and current amplification by impulses.

https://youtu.be/c2_rKc7sHGk (https://youtu.be/c2_rKc7sHGk)
Title: Re: new circuit, new video
Post by: stivep on November 20, 2020, 08:35:45 PM
Video will be watchable from november 21 2020; 0:00 AM GMT

It shows my Radiant half bridge circuit. explained into detail, and working.
Longitudinal resonance and current amplification by impulses.

https://youtu.be/c2_rKc7sHGk (https://youtu.be/c2_rKc7sHGk)
the link is not working
Wesley
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on November 20, 2020, 08:39:56 PM
the link is not working
Wesley
is it  november 21 2020; 1:00 AM GMT already?
no...
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: stivep on November 21, 2020, 12:35:57 AM
is it  november 21 2020; 1:00 AM GMT already?
no...
Your video is private.
Make it public please since you decided that you showing  it to audience.
My IT department says that :
1. if video is private than only people who are logged with their YouTube account will be able to watch it.
2. It is typical trick  used by corrupted YouTube employees from Russian Google office.
    they can attract audience  and screen them by their login.
    Rapport with information about these viewers is likely delivered than to  the Troll Agency in St Petersburg or Moscow.
    and/or shared with FSB ( former KGB)
___________________________________
Your, money, private life, activity, progress, involvement and investment in FE may be targeted.

Quote
Longitudinal resonance
https://youtu.be/c2_rKc7sHGk (https://youtu.be/c2_rKc7sHGk)

Longitudinal resonance
doesn't exist in quantum world
                                                         never existed in quantum world
                                             and will never exist    in quantum world

Presented by  you phenomena   may be present!! but explanation of these phenomena is :
a. misleading
b. falsified
c. improperly or wrongly assessed .
d. evaluated or estimated the nature, ability, or quality  from the perspective of purpose.(expected effect)
 
Wesley
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on November 21, 2020, 12:40:08 AM
think what ever you want.
it's online in 1 hour and 21 minutes.
Goodnight
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: stivep on November 21, 2020, 12:47:02 AM
think what ever you want.
it's online in 1 hour and 21 minutes.
Goodnight
Why don't you make it public  if you showing it to the public any how?
what is your motivation?
Wesley
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: forest on November 21, 2020, 10:28:22 PM
by Longitudinal resonance I understand simply a resonant standing wave on antenna then the way to tap magnetic field without disturbing resonanceand yes - I believe it is perfectly possible
Hendershot or Hubbard or Amman brothers even famous Tesla car or even Kapanadze devices....and so on

Title: Re: new circuit, new video
Post by: stivep on November 21, 2020, 11:46:40 PM
Video will be watchable from november 21 2020; 1:00 AM GMT
It shows my Radiant half bridge circuit. explained into detail, and working.
Longitudinal resonance and current amplification by impulses.
https://youtu.be/c2_rKc7sHGk (https://youtu.be/c2_rKc7sHGk)

I only got to the minute 49:08 of your video and decided to comment  it till now.
I will watch it to the end.
___________________________________


I do thank you for this video and I  will specify why:
1. excellent quality.
2. absolutely  outstanding  in clarity .
3. smooth   like butter.
4. visual effects  and sound are precise and concise.
5. great  quality  of hardware :
a- good organized PCB
b- shockingly well done  and precise assembly
    as if it was German or Swiss presentation.
c- distinctive original simply beautiful.
d- good English  skills
___________________________________


But till that very minute 49:08,  your video is  in area
-of weirdness  beyond accepted region  of tolerated logical deviation from technical stand point and is far in its controversially on the negative side.

I feel fluttering in my chest every few minutes or so when listening to  your explanation.
-the quality of being strange and unusual doesn't make you less valuable .
 It only  makes your video  immediately rejectful due to amount of  the nonsense you said there,
 
 
So yes you have got my attention from behind  of 3 firewalls...++.
I stopped watching, when you introduced the new cow or another holly cow to the video
  called by you:
- LMD Longitudinal Magneto Dielectric .
Unfortunately Eric Dollard was wrong and you are terribly, lacking  education in this area.
and yet  you are spreading nonsense to even less potent  viewers  of your video.



_____________________________________________
Preconclusion

Please note this is
not prejudice. and has nothing to do with connotations of intolerance, and  implies no  negative bias,
---------------------------------
I admire your work on that video and time spend .

Wesley


 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: stivep on November 22, 2020, 12:41:58 AM
by Longitudinal resonance I understand simply a resonant
standing wave on antenna then the way to tap magnetic field without disturbing resonance and yes
- I believe it is perfectly possible
Hendershot or Hubbard or Amman brothers even famous Tesla car or even Kapanadze devices....and so on

There is no such thing as "Longitudinal resonance" in quantum world.
Standing wave is present in the circuit between Tx along transmission line and Antenna acting as a load due to VSWR mismatch.
http://www.antenna-theory.com/definitions/vswr.php (http://www.antenna-theory.com/definitions/vswr.php)

The problem of all researchers is to look not at  circuit phenomena
but analyze  mechanism of energy transfer and  than
create circuit that  works with  that desired energy transfer process
till the energy is present at the output in the form of our convenience.

Wesley
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: forest on November 22, 2020, 02:31:36 PM
unfortunately I don't know radio engineering  much and here we must produce antenna which is totally different then normal radio - our purpose is to create standing wave with no EM radiation...basically what we have is HV HF tank circuit with low amps HV current and attached antenna with not radiating wave and with peaks of LARGE magnetic field as shown by many russian fellows
then it is not much different then ordinary generator - we fight the Lenz the Lorentz force and then we have what Tariel said = that way the clevery made secondary do not load primaryHubbard was a boy (19 years old ) interested in radio ,Amman brothers have some kind of radio transmitter and receiver working together probably generating beat frequency (two  antennas loaded with ball on top)
because magnetic field is sine qua non for generation of electricity it means magnetic field is source of electric energy !


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: stivep on November 22, 2020, 06:56:59 PM
here is some explanation:
The picture will be oversized but  it is done on purpose.
__________________
Measurement of IN and OUT of resonant circuit or  antenna tuner can be done with VNA Vector Network Analyzer.
Mentioned by you parameter S11 is explained here:
http://www.antenna-theory.com/definitions/sparameters.php (http://www.antenna-theory.com/definitions/sparameters.php)
VSWR is explained here
http://www.antenna-theory.com/definitions/vswr.php (http://www.antenna-theory.com/definitions/vswr.php)

VSWR (Voltage Standing Wave Ratio), is a measure of how efficiently radio-frequency power is transmitted
from a power source, through a transmission line, into a load (for example, from a power amplifier through a transmission line, to an antenna).
_________________________________

I will add more pictures

Wesley
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: stivep on November 23, 2020, 01:21:38 AM
Video will be watchable from november 21 2020; 1:00 AM GMT
It shows my Radiant half bridge circuit. explained into detail, and working.
Longitudinal resonance and current amplification by impulses.
https://youtu.be/c2_rKc7sHGk (https://youtu.be/c2_rKc7sHGk)
Master Ivo  - nick on YouTube

evostars- here on this forum
made my comment and link to this forum
hided from view of the audience on his YouTube
link:https://youtu.be/c2_rKc7sHGk (https://youtu.be/c2_rKc7sHGk)
______________________________

I made comment here:
https://overunity.com/17186/the-bifilar-pancake-coil-at-its-resonant-frequency/msg553348/#msg553348 (https://overunity.com/17186/the-bifilar-pancake-coil-at-its-resonant-frequency/msg553348/#msg553348)
and posted it in the form shown on the picture.
______________________________________


Dear evostars.
I'm not against you
I was more than fair in my comment
But we all in our life want to have  fair respectful honest existence.
We want to be noted as valuable members of society.

BUT YOU NEED TO HAVE BALLS AND BE A MAN
STAND  FOR YOUR VALUE  WITH YOUR HEAD UP.

______________________________

I don't like me being banned  from your YouTube for:
 -no reason other than just difference of opinion.

I understand that you are asking for donations
That is nothing wrong
and you make  excellent video quality and  technical assembly>

The theory explained by you is wrong
The phenomena quoted don't exist
You make viewers confused, disoriented, and gaining  not much if anything at all.
They will invest money in non-existing goals.

___________________________________

Summary:
If this is your way to invest into any research that is not so bad.
But if this is the way you my friend  are trying to make money
by using people donations and make your living with YouTube
than ...
you will deserve to be rejected.

Should I say

-what the   Schmuck
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmuck_(pejorative (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmuck_(pejorative))
Please correct me if I'm wrong about you.

picture at the bottom is a copy of my posting in Master Ivo  - nick on YouTube
known   in this forum as evostars.
hided by  him from view of other viewers on his YouTube.

Wesley
Title: Triangle wave produced by Radiant half-bridge circuit
Post by: evostars on November 26, 2020, 11:09:59 AM
While tuning and playing with the radiant half-bridge circuit, a triangle wave appears. This is from simultaneous magnetic and dielectric induction, from a dual primary.

the secondary that makes the triangle wave, also shows phase shifting.
this video shows it all:
  https://youtu.be/2fLBZu7BJkM   (https://youtu.be/2fLBZu7BJkM)

Circuit is explained in the previous video:
  https://youtu.be/c2_rKc7sHGk  (https://youtu.be/c2_rKc7sHGk)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: lancaIV on November 26, 2020, 11:45:25 AM
#1602 : half ? full !? phase shifting ?
              50%+ and 50%- ,thinking related a DC to AC on-grid infeeder process circuit
             exposed in : DE3821856

            For later experiment to DE3929039 and EP173724 ( inventor well named in hifi scene)



#1603     

          critics,judgement :  (the theory explained ~ short : it)" it is wrong"  counter-argument/-s listening,please  !             
                 When begins the theory to become - by opinion - wrong ?


                Step-by-step

                 evostar theory + stivep theory = 2x prototype trials : 2 x results = { !? }

                 Applying Mengen-Lehre= Set theory PRACTICAL,it is a professionals re-/search tool !

                Okay,with higher degree ! Teacher,Scientists : COMPARISON







                 Languages multi-valence !


                 Schmuck ~ geral 'jewelleries",ornament (  :-[ Caution ! ordinary,slang, man his bells,tomatoes,...)

                  jiddisch: Smok ~ wear coat texturation kind (and Art)
                  or : (literature: Mr.) Schmock,jiddisch: vulgaer/street slang

                  search for the right orientation   


                 free opinion : red is a colour  blue is a colour  colour = colour  BUT:  red is not blue,both in 1 : lila,violet


Sincerely
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on November 28, 2020, 12:48:43 AM
what I call parametric resonance, is the same as Eric p Dollard calls "parametric variance". This is a very important aspect of the amplification
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: polonelutu on January 12, 2021, 04:32:40 AM
Hello. From my experience it is clear that there are longitudinal waves, so there is longitudinal resonance in any coil with or without a magnetic core. It is different from the resonance of L C. Anyone who plays with frequencies lower than 1Mhz can discover it. Quantum physics and quantum mechanics do not exist and are the inventions of frustrated scientists that the universe in which they live does not match reality. Another invented word that saves ignorance is: big bang.
Title: Series Mosfet switching, for high voltage impulses Videos
Post by: evostars on January 30, 2021, 12:39:34 PM
I made 2 new videos, they show the series mosfets switching together, using a basic Radiant power circuit (2019 april),
 This makes it possible to create high voltage (3500V) impulses, from coil discharges, using 2 1200V SiC mosfets in series switched.

This video explains the idea of mosfet switching, and the Tesla oscillator article is explained:
https://youtu.be/w9I88HYY_Z4

This new video  of me, shows the series mosfets switching:
https://youtu.be/7vfDjN2hkBg

Multiple mosfets could be used, but the bottle neck would probably be the isolated gate driver (which could be a optocoupler with glass fiber)
, and the isolated dc dc converter (which could be a battery).
I tried using 1700V mosfets, but their pinout was wrong.
The c3m1200V mosfets are on order but should be available later this year.

Many think Tesla only used capacitor discharge current impulses, by making use of quenched sparkgaps,
.but he used coil discharges in his later years of research, to create voltage impulses

My idea still is to use a dual primary setup, one for dielectric induction (use the pancake coils as capacitor plates), the other for magnetic induction
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on February 05, 2021, 09:52:35 PM
It works!
I made a half bridge circuit, from 2x2 series mosfets. This way the impulse voltage can be made much higher:
https://youtu.be/OSSasginWFs (https://youtu.be/OSSasginWFs)
Title: Tuning a voltage impulse to a resonant current maximum
Post by: evostars on June 04, 2021, 10:16:43 PM
Nikola published his oscillator circuit in the July 1919 edition of the Electrical Experimenter.
link to article:
http://magstar.eu/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Tesla-oscillator-july-1919-electrical-experimenter.pdf
 (http://magstar.eu/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Tesla-oscillator-july-1919-electrical-experimenter.pdf)
I have made a solid state version of this circuit, to explain, how to phase shift a resonant cycle,
to get the voltage impulses anywhere on the resonant cycle.

This is done by using magnetically repulsing coils. Also known as "bucking coils"

in short:
a pulsed L1 coil repulses a series resonant L2 coil, which receives the impulses from the pulsed L1 coil.
Due to the repulsion, L2 is pushed out of phase.
This phase shift is done by varying the coupling distance between the coils.

This way the VOLTAGE impulses (which are resonant half waves from the L1 coil) can be tuned
to the L2 resonant CURRENT maximum.
This way the voltage and current are combined, creating power.

This is the video link, which shows and explains the concept deeper:
https://youtu.be/dOyYYoPIAlM (https://youtu.be/dOyYYoPIAlM)
This link will be shortly offline, until it premieres tonight
Title: series switched mosfets instead of flawed radiant half bridge circuit
Post by: evostars on July 05, 2021, 07:20:55 PM
My radiant half bridge circuit design does not work as I intended it to work.
Luckily the PCB is still functional as it is able to switch 2 mosfets in series, to produce high voltage impulses (3500v).

In this video I explain what it wrong with the circuit using 3 simple experiments.
I also show how to modify the circuit for series mosfet switching.
  https://youtu.be/bl4xk8CMe8I   (https://youtu.be/bl4xk8CMe8I)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: onepower on July 12, 2021, 07:20:55 AM
Evostars
Quote
My radiant half bridge circuit design does not work as I intended it to work.
Luckily the PCB is still functional as it is able to switch 2 mosfets in series, to produce high voltage impulses (3500v).

In this video I explain what it wrong with the circuit using 3 simple experiments.
I also show how to modify the circuit for series mosfet switching.
  https://youtu.be/bl4xk8CMe8I

Your getting there but you have a very long way to go my friend...

One could ask how do I know you among so many are on the right track?.
It was the statement you made implying something is inherently flawed between our understanding of
the relationship between the electric and magnetic fields with respect to induction.
You are correct and my first working device proving as much was estimated to have a COP>100.
The holy grail, the be all end all of all we wish to know is in fact bullshit, it's just an electrical machine based on know principals.
However, we have to understand what's going on in our circuits from a more absolute perspective, the sum of all forces present.

Consider the circuits in the picture posted below.

The circuit labelled inductive isolation can produce an inductive impulse on the make and break of the circuit.
That is, what Tesla called an inductive discharge can in fact be produced on a switch closure and opening provided two switches are utilized as shown.
I realized this probably a decade ago when Tesla claimed the make and break of a circuit could produce the same results which I didn't believe initially.
Hence the reason I did the experiments and in effect prove myself wrong again. There is more here than I could possibly explain and
it would take days to bring you up to speed.

As well, on the picture labelled "impulse output", this is kind of comical. You see I have decades of experience and read thousands of
patents and there was always one anomaly common to them. I didn't get it initially so I will present the problem to you. Suppose we
kept seeing double spark gaps, double switches or back to back diodes as a threshold detector/pseudo spark gap... to what end, why?.

The back to back diodes are a no brainer and it's simply a threshold detector or negative resistance meant to mimic a spark gap.
The voltage rises to a given threshold then conducts all at once within a short time period. A parallel capacitance can reduce the
frequency and increase the magnitude not unlike most negative resistance circuits known in the art. It's kind of comical that almost
all the supposed experts were so amateur that they thought back to back diodes in a circuit was a mistake, not being able to recognize
a threshold detector when they saw one... which is amateur in my opinion.

Your on the right track and all you need to do now is follow through being as objective as you can.
Believe nothing others say, they cannot help you as I explained above, there are no experts only strong opinions
which are generally misguided. Do you know what really pissed me off?, the fact that all these brilliant
FE inventors claimed the process is so simple even a child could understand it but I couldn't.
Then once I did understand FE I understood I was thinking like a child, believing others unfounded bullshit not based on reality.
There lies the contradiction, doesn't it?.

Regards
AC
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on July 12, 2021, 09:39:37 AM
Quote
you need to do now is follow through being as objective as you can. Believe nothing others say, they cannot help you as I explained above, there are no experts only strong opinions which are generally misguided.
Yes I've been doing that.

And to be clear, I continue working on the tesla oscillator circuit (april 2019 Radiant Power circuit).

I can now tune the negative voltage impulse from the coil discharge (no sparkgap needed, as the switch opens),
to the positive current of the series resonant L2 primary coil.
If the L2 is charged up with a positive DC voltage (created by the same impulses) , it charges up the capacitor made out of the L2 and L3 primary and secondary coils.

the impulse discharge then also discharges this coil capacitor.

So we will have both an implosion of the dielectric field (of L2 L3 coil capacitor) and the Magnetic field (L2 primary).

These simultaneous implosion shockwaves excite the aether, and create power.

that's what I'm working on.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on July 18, 2021, 04:44:01 PM
To get a simultaneous discharge of both the dielectric and magnetic fields, I am making a coil capacitor,
to be used in the Tesla oscillator (april 2019 radiant power) circuit.

I also show some more unusual capacitors.
and a small test showing the current (magnetic field) discharge/implosion

on a side note, I modified the radiant half bridge PCB for c3m 1200V series mosfet switching, just tested it and it works, - 3000V impulses!

 https://youtu.be/-8b8RDKpnSA   (https://youtu.be/-8b8RDKpnSA)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on July 19, 2021, 12:29:35 AM
@Evo,

I bet the magnetic field from the "Coil Capacitor" would produce a forceful kick on a rotor magnet. You need to try and measure the force of this mechanical power. I made some preliminary calculations on my CMOS Oscillator thread. The two outer coil faces produce opposite poles which suit an oscillator.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MagnaProp on July 19, 2021, 08:24:24 AM
...I am making a coil capacitor,...
Keep up the great work. Wish I understood a fraction of what you can do. Donation sent.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on July 19, 2021, 03:34:56 PM
@Evostars,

I don't want to appear as overly impertinent,  because you stated in the past that you are uninterested in the mechanical force: However due to the similarly of your "Capacitor Coil" and the Grey Tube motor where the high voltage dielectric field combines with amperage to produce an overunity gain in field strength, a simple poping test would reveal enough. Grey suceeded at launching magnets to record heights with capacitor discharge coils!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on July 19, 2021, 04:37:32 PM
@Evostars,

Suppose we wound a large coil of thin wire and many turns to input the 3500 volt radient pulse to instead of sending it to a high voltage storage capacitor?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on July 20, 2021, 08:19:14 PM
How about a magnetic inductor like this?
Title: new radiant circuit explained
Post by: evostars on October 10, 2021, 01:43:13 PM
Nikola Tesla's Radiant Energy is still a mystery.
I am researching it, and learned a lot from my previous experiments.

LMD resonance. Impulse electricity, high voltage electrostatic discharges caused by impulses, creating Longitudinal displacement currents.

this is a link to the circuit:
http://imgur.com/gallery/I5VfKXI (http://imgur.com/gallery/I5VfKXI)

All what I have learned comes together in this new circuit that I present and explain in this video:

https://youtu.be/qxyf-L48Y8k (https://youtu.be/qxyf-L48Y8k)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tysb3 on November 21, 2021, 01:22:11 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTs0c2TioII
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: sm0ky2 on November 21, 2021, 09:06:03 PM
I have several circuits that TK built
i (sort of) understand the principal


To me it seems just like when you have 2 tuning forks
Each on a resonator box (just a rectangle tube of the right size)


Ring one (sound is amplified by the box)
The other starts ringing (and its’ box makes its’ own sound)


Theres a giant one in operation here in Texas
The tower is plugged into the mains (where his power meter is)


And at least 3 buildings (several acres apart)
have smaller receiver towers that draw power to operate the facility.
set up in an arc around the large tower

Getting the signal in and out is exactly like the way we broadcast radio
or cell phone signals


All the mystery is in tuning that to the coils, or a suitable octave
 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: stivep on November 21, 2021, 11:10:22 PM
It looks guys you have fun here.
Honestly  when I read your comments I feel like  moved into some form  of surrealistic environment 
where  I understand nothing, but everyone there  is closely associated with that form  of Surrealism - they understand a lot .
I didn't  really come here to to express  unfavorable opinion of the worth or quality,  blame, censure, condemn.. otherwise known as criticism.
( especially  comments of some Russian  responders)
But with all do respect:
- one may lose an "erection"  and become temporarily "impotent"  brainwise applying  critical thinking
to comment like this:
Hello. From my experience it is clear that there are longitudinal waves, so there is longitudinal resonance in any coil with or without a magnetic core.
It is different from the resonance of L C. Anyone who plays with frequencies lower than 1Mhz can discover it.
Quantum physics and quantum mechanics do not exist
and are the inventions of frustrated scientists that the universe in which they live does not match reality.
 Another invented word that saves ignorance is: big bang.
______________________________________________________________


Simple question Ivo, evostars, Master Ivo  and others.
Where is a gain ?
and
Is there a gain if any in  your , theory, practical experience  measured in W or  Joules or any  other units,
when compared: the energy IN vs energy OUT.?


I'm sorry but  being in physics for 32 years now I can see  gain in situations like this:
-young girl is gaining in wealthy marriage- nothing wrong in it.
- use of small amount of energy allows to gain access,  the another source of energy to work for me.
  e.g energy used to open  valve  on the pipe with water connected  to the river-flow is small but we can  use the
  water flow  from now for free. (and yes- that is your  FE.)

 and so on.....

The yet  another question is :
What  is your gain.... in all of it?

Wesley


 
 
 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: onepower on November 22, 2021, 01:06:35 AM
stivep
Quote
Where is a gain ?
and
Is there a gain if any in  your , theory, practical experience  measured in W or  Joules or any  other units,
when compared: the energy IN vs energy OUT.?

There lies the question and the answer is kind of funny...
It took me around a decade to figure it all out and my conclusion was there is no gain.

Think of it this way, if we burn an apple we can expect a small amount of chemical energy to be transformed. However if the mass of the same apple underwent a fusion process we could power a large city for years. The apple is the only input in both examples and yet the supposed energy output is different by many orders of magnitude.

Now we could ask where is the gain?, there is no gain and we are simply transforming more of the energy already present in the system.

I think you hit on the actual problem and it relates to the primitive "energy IN vs energy OUT" mindset. Energy is conserved and can only be transformed thus there is no "in versus out" only transformations. Nothing is destroyed or can be lost and nothing is created or gained... only transformed.

If we want to understand free energy then the questions we need to ask are what is Energy and how many ways can it be transformed?.

Regards
AC



Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: stivep on November 22, 2021, 01:50:52 AM
if we burn an apple we can expect a small amount of chemical energy to be transformed. However if the mass of the same apple underwent a fusion process we could power a large city for years.
It is coupling to energy of  another energy source . the gain  is with "riding someone else horse"
I said exactly the same:
e.g energy used to open  valve  on the pipe with water connected  to the river-flow is small but we can  use the
 water flow  from now for free. (and yes- that is your  FE.)
But this is not what I was asking  for.
______________________________________________________________

This is what I'm talking about and asking for:
Example:
Master Ivo makes a video showing circuit in mosfets..cancelling two signals in 180 degrees .. well ..fine with me.
Whatever wording he uses,  colliding or not with official physics......... well ..fine with me. I don't care much about it.
-and yes sometime some comments are oddly funny to the physicists..
Example:
longitudinal magneto dielectric wave/mode  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxyf-L48Y8k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxyf-L48Y8k)  :) (By Master Ivo)
What the heck  is it.? Show me    a link to it (by credible sources.)
Read this as an example of credible source:
https://www.bnl.gov/isd/documents/94101.pdf (https://www.bnl.gov/isd/documents/94101.pdf)




But on the other hand curiosity is pushing me to ask.
What is this entire nonsense for?
and yes it makes some sense  or perfect sense to some  of  you ...
and I want to know why.


So I'm asking simple  question :

Ivo, evostars, Master Ivo  and others.
Where is a gain ?
and
Is there a gain if any in  your , theory, practical experience  measured in W or  Joules or any  other units,
when compared: the energy IN vs energy OUT.?
And if you coupled to another energy source during a conversion than what is your gain  IN/OUT.

or simpler to ask:
did you ever see any gain  measured in W or  Joules or any  other units, in your "romantic comedy of science?"




Wesley
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: forest on November 22, 2021, 02:36:41 PM
In the essence the question " where is the gain?" can be transformed into a question " what is the source of energy we are trying to tap?" and the only successful route is to ask and answer those questions. Steven Mark and a few ones like Perrigo, Hendershot, Hubbard answer that and they coincide with each other answer. I found also other question and yes - there is answer too. This another question was asked and answered by Clemente Figuera and later by D'Angelo and Alexander and probably many others.Here is some "laws" which should be studied in next decade (because except atomic energy and pv or wind energy there is no other sources so promising and so available to the masses)

1. Magnetic field is the source of energy - the only problem is the method to use it

2. Magnetic fields are nested
3. Earth magnetic field is dynamic and contain huge amount of energy uniformly spreaded
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: onepower on November 22, 2021, 06:06:31 PM
Forest
Where does the energy come from?.
Quote
1. Magnetic field is the source of energy - the only problem is the method to use it
2. Magnetic fields are nested
3. Earth magnetic field is dynamic and contain huge amount of energy uniformly spreaded

I came to a different conclusion based on the fact that magnetic fields are produced by moving charges. Therefore all energy must relate directly to the motion of charged particles. I suspect everyone including myself will be proven wrong in the future because charged particles are supposedly made of even smaller particles mostly unknown to us. 

Here is a strange thought, we know 99% of outer space is a perfect vacuum and 99% of inner space is also a perfect vacuum. This is true for several reasons, first we cannot fit an atom inside another atom therefore the space between the Proton-Electrons must be a vacuum. Thus we always find a perfect vacuum in every space wherever particles are not present.

99% of the universe is a perfect vacuum and what we call material/matter a fog of charged particles in perpetual motion within the vacuum. Think about that, the universe is like a very large vacuum tube and everything we call material a plasma of charged particles moving near the speed of light. In this respect we are beings almost entirely made up of energy...we are literally the thing we seek.

As such I have little interest in magnetic fields and they are simply an artifact of what happens when charged particles move. As well, my first working free energy device was based on the premise of inhibiting or removing all magnetic fields. As Viktor Schauberger once said...do the opposite of what everyone else does and you will be on the right track. Which should be obvious and if everyone else is failing we should not be following...

Regards
AC

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: onepower on November 27, 2021, 05:34:54 PM
Stivep
 
Where is the gain?.

That's like asking Microsoft where is the code or SpaceX where are your plans?. It's intellectual property silly and you will probably never see it. I mean you don't honestly think anyone would just give it to you do you, lol.

I know many people with working technology and most are consulting on the technology or gearing up for production. Hell, you may be able to buy a free energy device off the shelf at Walmart soon.

However as far as someone just giving you the technology I can't see that happening...why would they?.

AC
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: stivep on November 27, 2021, 06:10:34 PM
My question was not related to intellectual property but to  mechanism of energy extraction.
The only way to get more OUT than IN is when  initial energy IN  is  used to release energy from another source
similar to opening valve .
example:
Energy of the  sun is with losses converted to  electrical energy.
 - our energy IN was used to make solar panel.

Energy from  the river carried on by the water pipe  is released  by valve on the pipe.
 - our energy IN was used to open the valve.

Energy  in process of Energy Extraction from Schumann Waveguide  is transferred to the interface   Earth/Air.
 - our energy IN was used to make receiver and tune it according to Dr Corum from Viziv.

So the question still reminds open:
Where the energy  comes from ? .
Where is the gain?.
-in your  romantic comedy  with  science of Energy
You don't need to give me any secrets at all.

Wesley
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: forest on November 27, 2021, 07:07:38 PM
Wesley . Possible sources
1. McFrey theory of atomic transmutation in strong magnetic field
2. Some hidden slow-wave (or Tesla wave) military transmitter (probably located  in Russia or US). Very unlikely, because receiver require sharp tuning
3. Radiant energy
4. Magnetic field from quanta spin of electrons
Personally I vote for 3 and 4, especially when you understand what is radiant energy
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: lukaszkwiatkowskii on November 28, 2021, 10:05:36 AM
Ale zaleciało para-ezoteryką, żadne z powyższych, w stosunku do zwykłej cewki płaskiej różni się jedynie indukcyjnością wzajemną między-zwojową.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: onepower on November 29, 2021, 06:01:38 PM
Stivep

It's hard to understand what your trying to say because your jumping all over the place conceptually. 

It sounds like your speaking about the exact mechanism for gain not where energy comes from. Why didn't you just say what is the mechanism for gain in the first place?.

As I said prior, all the inventors patent or disclose circuits or devices however the exact mechanism for gain is intellectual property and never fully disclosed. Logically if they did disclose it we wouldn't be having this conversation. I'm no different, I'm an inventor but won't give you my work because it's my intellectual property and has great value. Is that so hard to understand?.

It seems to me your implying all the real inventors should just give you all there hard work for free which is kind of naive. That's kind of like me saying I want your house, I want it therefore you should give it to me just because I'm me, lol. That's just silly and not how the real world works.

Regards
AC
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: onepower on December 01, 2021, 07:53:31 PM
Quote
So the question still reminds open:
Where the energy comes from ? .

http://www.calphysics.org/zpe.html
Introduction to Zero Point Energy

The scientific community does not recognize free energy or overunity but use the term Zero Point Energy.

Therefore it has already been proven beyond all shadow of doubt by the scientific community that the universe is full of vast amounts of energy. The only thing actually in question is how to extract this energy but the science has been known for decades.

The thing to understand about science is that they don't rely on bs or hearsay and always require unbiased proof. Which is only common sense isn't it?, if our supposed theories about something are correct then we should be able prove it. However many would rather peddle false beliefs to serve there own interests rather than accept scientific facts.

We should also understand the difference between a theory and a fact. There are countless scientific theories like the "big bang theory" which are not a fact. Hence the term "theory", not a fact but a theory. Yet many would like to take this out of context and claim science is making false claims which are not true. So a little common sense is required.

So there you have it, this mysterious thing you seek has already proven by science decades ago, lol.

Regards
AC
 



Title: Electric conduction through Distilled Water
Post by: evostars on January 29, 2022, 04:06:10 PM
I have made a breakthrough in understanding Nikola Tesla’s Radiant Energy.
I have come to the conclusion it is the same as what we know as a Displacement current.
Based on the insights, I have successfully conducted electric energy through pure distilled water (normally non conductive)
​​​​​​​and charged a capacitor up to 1200V using, impulses.
It is based on dielectric induction.
Eric Dollard already showed this in his 1980's Borderland videos, using ground current to transmit radio signals.

My new video showing Dielectric induction through pure distilled water:
https://youtu.be/NVTCEMw2-pU
(premieres today, 8pm GMT)

My previous video using the same circuit, using Magnetic induction to lift aluminum foil:
https://youtu.be/PBH_weiEM1w

My video explaining the circuit that I used for both experiments:
https://youtu.be/Pa2MipWGSKQ

Title: Re: Electric conduction through Distilled Water
Post by: geovat on February 02, 2022, 09:14:40 AM
I have made a breakthrough in understanding Nikola Tesla’s Radiant Energy.
I have come to the conclusion it is the same as what we know as a Displacement current.
Based on the insights, I have successfully conducted electric energy through pure distilled water (normally non conductive)
​​​​​​​and charged a capacitor up to 1200V using, impulses.
It is based on dielectric induction.
Eric Dollard already showed this in his 1980's Borderland videos, using ground current to transmit radio signals.

My new video showing Dielectric induction through pure distilled water:
https://youtu.be/NVTCEMw2-pU
(premieres today, 8pm GMT)

My previous video using the same circuit, using Magnetic induction to lift aluminum foil:
https://youtu.be/PBH_weiEM1w

My video explaining the circuit that I used for both experiments:
https://youtu.be/Pa2MipWGSKQ
Nice job you made there ! My question is: your device output give around 3-6Kv with 8 to 18 Amps as a electric field with certain frequency over 130Khz, please correct me if I'm wrong, I wonder if you reduce this output current to 110v or 220v how you will convert the electric field and frequency to electric current at 60Hz in order to start an lightbulb. Shortly: how you get rid of e-field and produce current? May be I'm wrong and it's not about electrical field or rf field.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: pix on February 02, 2022, 02:21:06 PM
@evostars
MIT Physics Demo -- Dissectible Capacitor - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ckpQW9sdUg)
Title: Re: Electric conduction through Distilled Water
Post by: magpwr on February 02, 2022, 03:05:13 PM
I have made a breakthrough in understanding Nikola Tesla’s Radiant Energy.
I have come to the conclusion it is the same as what we know as a Displacement current.
Based on the insights, I have successfully conducted electric energy through pure distilled water (normally non conductive)
​​​​​​​and charged a capacitor up to 1200V using, impulses.
It is based on dielectric induction.
Eric Dollard already showed this in his 1980's Borderland videos, using ground current to transmit radio signals.

My new video showing Dielectric induction through pure distilled water:
https://youtu.be/NVTCEMw2-pU (https://youtu.be/NVTCEMw2-pU)
(premieres today, 8pm GMT)

My previous video using the same circuit, using Magnetic induction to lift aluminum foil:
https://youtu.be/PBH_weiEM1w (https://youtu.be/PBH_weiEM1w)

My video explaining the circuit that I used for both experiments:
https://youtu.be/Pa2MipWGSKQ (https://youtu.be/Pa2MipWGSKQ)
hi evostars,
No offends but after watching your video on the "slow" charging of capacitor via distilled water using HV.It is already a problem....
I have attached a direct screenshot from google search related to distilled water.It's around 500k Ohms.You can get the same effect if you connect 3 or 4 common resistors(Est 300volts typically rated for each resistor)to form 500k. 
For the dielectric you can use the opposite end of pcb board if it is 2 layered board.But one end the surface area need to be made smaller,for better HV isolation.
---------------------------------------
I do like your youtube presentation as always but for me i will never put my face in it even if i am 100% right.
Title: Re: Electric conduction through Distilled Water
Post by: verpies on February 02, 2022, 04:04:51 PM
hi evostars,
No offends but after watching your video on the "slow" charging of capacitor via distilled water using HV.It is already a problem....
I have attached a direct screenshot from google search related to distilled water.It's around 500k Ohms.You can get the same effect if you connect 3 or 4 common resistors(Est 300volts typically rated for each resistor)to form 500k. 
It is really hard to get all of the conductive ions out of the water.
Copper ions from the wire, patina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patina#Acquired_patina), atmospheric sulphur oxides and nitrogen oxides, fingerprint acids, dirty container ...all can contribute conductive ions.
Title: Re: Electric conduction through Distilled Water
Post by: pix on February 02, 2022, 04:21:53 PM
[quote ]
It is really hard to get all of the conductive ions out of the water.
Copper ions from the wire, patina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patina#Acquired_patina), atmospheric sulphur oxides and nitrogen oxides, fingerprint acids, dirty container ...all can contribute conductive ions.
[/quote]


It is not distilled, it is demineralized. A huge difference.
Distilled water should have less than 5 ppm of mineral content.
Real distilled water used for lab. analysis is at least two times condensed from boiling.


Cheers,
Pix

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: geovat on February 02, 2022, 08:52:43 PM
"The resistivity of absolute pure water is 18.2 (rounded) MΩ × cm at 25°C or 0.055 micro-siemens/cm. Water of this quality must be measured inline (closed system) in order to prevent atmospheric interference of the reading. As water is drawn from a water purification system that is showing 18.2 MΩ × cm purity, carbon dioxide from the atmosphere is immediately absorbed into the solution. The carbon dioxide reacts with water forming carbonic acid in solution."
https://www.labmanager.com/white-papers-and-application-notes/resistivity-conductivity-measurement-of-purified-water-19691
@evostars please take a look at my previous reply to you:
"Nice job you made there ! My question is: your device output give around 3-6Kv with 8 to 18 Amps as a electric field with certain frequency over 130Khz, please correct me if I'm wrong, I wonder if you reduce this output current to 110v or 220v how you will convert the electric field and frequency to electric current at 60Hz in order to start an lightbulb. Shortly: how you get rid of e-field and produce current? May be I'm wrong and it's not about electrical field or rf field."
Title: Field Propulsion
Post by: evostars on May 14, 2022, 07:21:01 PM
Video showing and explaining Field Propulsion.
premières this Sunday

https://youtu.be/lVjC47NBqfM (https://youtu.be/lVjC47NBqfM)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Solhi on November 18, 2022, 09:15:22 AM
I am playing around with a simulator but do not really understand the results I get. Maybe the more capable members can guide me.
The simulator depicts a TBPC in series feed with a DC source and a capacitor that should control the frequency to 40 kHz.
The attached screenshots show the results. Does this indicate very strong pulsing magnetic fields?

P.s. in case this is real will the cap and power supply survive this?

Edit: just.found in the Sim app, first hidden for me a wire resistance switch, which was off. Now it shows a diametral different result.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 25, 2023, 03:17:48 PM
This video explains what electric impulses are
and what the differences are between current and voltage impulses.
https://youtu.be/YnijhZdAseA

I also made a short video, explaining that a negative to positive voltage discharges creates an inflow of energy from the induced displacement current. (based on fast changing high voltage).
https://youtube.com/shorts/ACjsvpFZPK8?feature=share

And this video, is about the TEM and LMD resonant modes, that occur from Loose coupled dual resonant coils. Prof Konstatin Meyl already showed some of the effects, and also Eric p Dollard showed some of it in his 1980's Borderland videos:
https://youtu.be/5qpOxiy1x6s

I'm looking for inspiration that is related to what C.P. Steinmetz called a cumulative wave. Today it is more commonly known as the "trumpet wave".
I feel it is connected to the negative displacement current created by a negative current impulse (negative voltage discharge to zero or positive voltage).

If Anyone has information/links please share!
Thanks.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: apecore on April 25, 2023, 05:40:38 PM
This video explains what electric impulses are
and what the differences are between current and voltage impulses.
https://youtu.be/YnijhZdAseA

I also made a short video, explaining that a negative to positive voltage discharges creates an inflow of energy from the induced displacement current. (based on fast changing high voltage).
https://youtube.com/shorts/ACjsvpFZPK8?feature=share

And this video, is about the TEM and LMD resonant modes, that occur from Loose coupled dual resonant coils. Prof Konstatin Meyl already showed some of the effects, and also Eric p Dollard showed some of it in his 1980's Borderland videos:
https://youtu.be/5qpOxiy1x6s

I'm looking for inspiration that is related to what C.P. Steinmetz called a cumulative wave. Today it is more commonly known as the "trumpet wave".
I feel it is connected to the negative displacement current created by a negative current impulse (negative voltage discharge to zero or positive voltage).

If Anyone has information/links please share!
Thanks.

To bad to see you run out of amunition so long.
If you had given me the oppertunity to show you I would, unfortunately you acted very disruptive and non social.

So lets see what time will tell, maybe I make a vid showing the world your missing link.

Have a good day
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: sm0ky2 on April 25, 2023, 07:12:14 PM
https://youtu.be/NHizjXBsPJE (https://youtu.be/NHizjXBsPJE)



Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: SolarLab on April 25, 2023, 07:17:56 PM
This video explains what electric impulses are
and what the differences are between current and voltage impulses.
https://youtu.be/YnijhZdAseA (https://youtu.be/YnijhZdAseA)

I also made a short video, explaining that a negative to positive voltage discharges creates an inflow of energy from the induced displacement current. (based on fast changing high voltage).
https://youtube.com/shorts/ACjsvpFZPK8?feature=share (https://youtube.com/shorts/ACjsvpFZPK8?feature=share)

And this video, is about the TEM and LMD resonant modes, that occur from Loose coupled dual resonant coils. Prof Konstatin Meyl already showed some of the effects, and also Eric p Dollard showed some of it in his 1980's Borderland videos:
https://youtu.be/5qpOxiy1x6s (https://youtu.be/5qpOxiy1x6s)

I'm looking for inspiration that is related to what C.P. Steinmetz called a cumulative wave. Today it is more commonly known as the "trumpet wave".
I feel it is connected to the negative displacement current created by a negative current impulse (negative voltage discharge to zero or positive voltage).

If Anyone has information/links please share!
Thanks.

Hi Master IVO,

First off - I'm in the process of reviewing your YouTube page ( https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFz4KwTTMz5GZ97oUi-8XJoI1Riij22v2 (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFz4KwTTMz5GZ97oUi-8XJoI1Riij22v2) )
and so far I must comment - One of the BEST PAGES on the subject I've seen - barr none, Thank You for all your work and insight!

BTW; I find the Tesla VNA information is very interesting and informative (impressive)!

Second - we have a good archive of Prof. K. Meyl's work and some older Steinmetz work that I'll review, as time permits, regarding any "Trumpet
Wave" information. From memory, there were some interesting aspects to it that are not well known or understood; but it does appear in some
designs.

If there are any target areas of particular interest please let me know so I can narrow the search, if required.

Anyway, for now, "Great Work" and hopefully I can find some good references, information and so forth re: "negative current impulses, a.k.a. Trumpet
Waves.

Regards,
Solarlab
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: SolarLab on April 25, 2023, 09:15:30 PM
Found one interesting "take" on displacement current:

Displacement Current Articles

Wireless World Magazine

Dec 1978 - Displacement Current page 51
https://worldradiohistory.com/UK/Wireless-World/70s/Wireless-World-1978-12.pdf (https://worldradiohistory.com/UK/Wireless-World/70s/Wireless-World-1978-12.pdf)

Mar 1979 - Further explaination of an earlieer article - The history of displacement current page 67
https://worldradiohistory.com/UK/Wireless-World/70s/Wireless-World-1979-03.pdf (https://worldradiohistory.com/UK/Wireless-World/70s/Wireless-World-1979-03.pdf)

Articles are found in the Wirelessworld archive:https://worldradiohistory.com/Wireless_World_Magazine.htm

The distributed model lends itself to the rising edge of the pulse behaviour.

SL
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: SolarLab on April 25, 2023, 09:46:02 PM

Here's a little teaser from the articles above:

"In fact, if this dD/dt were regarded as a current, far from saving the doctrine, it would
destroy it, because now more current  (i + dD/dt) would be leaving the first section of
the plate BB' than was entering it."

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Dog-One on April 26, 2023, 01:00:41 AM
So capacitors are actually transmission lines.  Interesting...
Especially since transmission lines incorporate capacitors.
Says a lot about the fractal nature of our world.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: SolarLab on April 26, 2023, 05:20:16 AM
So capacitors are actually transmission lines.  Interesting...
Especially since transmission lines incorporate capacitors.
Says a lot about the fractal nature of our world.


Well, unfortunately, there's a bit more to it than that!
 
The actual analysis, even of a simple capacitor, is more complex when considering it's
circuit implementation and it's application.

An analytical (mathematical formulas) analysis works for relatively simple applications using
a signal generator and scope or meter; however for more complex applications usually a
numerical analysis (CAE) and a Vector Network Analyzer (VNA) are needed.

One good VNA for low frequency work (1 Hz to 50 MHz) is the Omicron Lab BODE 100:
  https://www.omicron-lab.com/products/vector-network-analysis/bode-100

Check their web site for some excellent Application and Tutorial subject matter.

Also, "evostars" [Master Ivo] youtube page has some great videos on this stuff, including a series
relating to Tesla Coil VNA analysis.
https://www.youtube.com/@MasterIvo/playlists

SL

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: sm0ky2 on April 26, 2023, 06:39:25 AM
So capacitors are actually transmission lines.  Interesting...
Especially since transmission lines incorporate capacitors.
Says a lot about the fractal nature of our world.


if you consider the minute length of the plates, it can be analyzed this way.
in the way you could suppose a capacitor is also a transformer.


I think the point of the overall view was that we can take the current through the circuit,
without having to consider the electric field interaction with the other plate/transmission line.


I don’t agree with this viewpoint, personally.
This works if the only thing you are looking at is the current through the plate.
However, when observing the circuit as a whole there is an inductance and an impedance to deal with.


and also at lengths greater than the distance between them:
there is phase
due to the e-field arriving at the other plate before the current travels the entire conductor.
in a very real way, current can begin to flow through C before it has traveled the length of B-B


measuring current from the source will provide more accuracy than measurements taken along the length of B-B. Here we see the induction at C causes more current to be drawn.







Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: SolarLab on April 26, 2023, 10:01:16 AM
evostars,

A while back Stalker talked about how he achieved a Trumpet Wave in one of his
device development videos. Might be worth reviewing - it's in Russian however.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syf5_fLPzrw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syf5_fLPzrw)

Attached a snapshot fyi. Video is about 27 min. Starts about 4-5 min in.
 
SL