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Solid States Devices => Resonance Circuits and Systems => Topic started by: evostars on March 18, 2017, 09:49:26 PM

Title: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 18, 2017, 09:49:26 PM
The bifilar pancake coil, is a interesting coil. It has inductance, but more importantly it has increased capacitance, due to the high voltage difference between the coil windings. It looks like a coil that is a capacitor at the same time.

When the coil is freely resonanting at its resonant frequency, it produces a static magnetic field. At the same time it produces a dynamic dielectric field.

This dielectric field has interesting capabilities. it seems as if it has been stripped of the magnetic field component. It interacts with ground signals. It is able to transfer energy through one wire, and produces voltage in metal objects that are in the field (but not connected).

 I really feel that this is the pure form of electricity. And Im very curious about its properties.
I could not find solid info about it, so I started to do my own research. and I was amazed with the results. To fill the information void about this, i have started to make a video series about it.

https://youtu.be/xHDrmGPY-78 (https://youtu.be/xHDrmGPY-78)  about the dielectric field of a bifilar coil
https://youtu.be/uhY27Zoor-Q (https://youtu.be/uhY27Zoor-Q)  about the magnetic field of a bifilar coil (at resonance and DC)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 18, 2017, 11:58:23 PM
The bifilar pancake coil, is a interesting coil. It has inductance, but more importantly it has increased capacitance, due to the high voltage difference between the coil windings. It looks like a coil that is a capacitor at the same time.

When the coil is freely resonanting at its resonant frequency, it produces a static magnetic field. At the same time it produces a dynamic dielectric field.

This dielectric field has interesting capabilities. it seems as if it has been stripped of the magnetic field component. It interacts with ground signals. It is able to transfer energy through one wire, and produces voltage in metal objects that are in the field (but not connected).

 I really feel that this is the pure form of electricity. And Im very curious about its properties.


I could not find solid info about it, so I started to do my own research. and I was amazed with the results. To fill the information void about this, i have started to make a video series about it.

https://youtu.be/xHDrmGPY-78 (https://youtu.be/xHDrmGPY-78)  about the dielectric field of a bifilar coil
https://youtu.be/uhY27Zoor-Q (https://youtu.be/uhY27Zoor-Q)  about the magnetic field of a bifilar coil (at resonance and DC)


Hi ,
thanks for share your videos and your thoughts about that theme , myself have study some of the effects you enumerate an i  have some videos show exactly some of the effects that you talk .
If you are interesting to see something about that subject ;) i left some of my tests .

https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=XGyz31yaCdw
https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=J1wMalWqa7o
https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=fJ0roz9qz0g


cheers
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 19, 2017, 12:30:41 AM

Hi ,
thanks for share your videos and your thoughts about that theme , myself have study some of the effects you enumerate an i  have some videos show exactly some of the effects that you talk .
If you are interesting to see something about that subject ;) i left some of my tests .
cheers
Obrigado Nelsonrochaa!
I have looked at your videos. The radiant box is not clear to me. is it working with a resonant coil?

you seem to produce a lot of power!
I have not been able to convert the dielectric voltage into magnetic amperes, have you got a link to your research?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 19, 2017, 12:48:08 AM
Obrigado Nelsonrochaa!
I have looked at your videos. The radiant box is not clear to me. is it working with a resonant coil?

you seem to produce a lot of power!
I have not been able to convert the dielectric voltage into magnetic amperes, have you got a link to your research?

Hi Evostars ,
I thank you, the fact that you do something that I do not like to do:
Talk and explain in  my videos.  But you explained very well the important aspects to most of people understand the main idea .
Yes the radiant box use a stack of bifilar pancake coils with one resonant coil in middle of that stack of coils .
You could find a nice effect to if you want to test it . If you put a sheet of aluminum foil on top of your pancake if are properly tuned it will levitate the foil because diamagnetic properties of aluminum .
No i don't make any public research , but you could find some of my tests in my channel .
I hope you continue your explanations to probe to some folks that type of events are real and not bulshit .
One more time very thanks

cheers :

Nelson Rocha

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 19, 2017, 01:01:37 AM
Hi Evostars ,
I thank you, the fact that you do something that I do not like to do:
Talk and explain in  my videos.  But you explained very well the important aspects to most of people understand the main idea .
Yes the radiant box use a stack of bifilar pancake coils with one resonant coil in middle of that stack of coils .
You could find a nice effect to if you want to test it . If you put a sheet of aluminum foil on top of your pancake if are properly tuned it will levitate the foil because diamagnetic properties of aluminum .
No i don't make any public research , but you could find some of my tests in my channel .
I hope you continue your explanations to probe to some folks that type of events are real and not bulshit .
One more time very thanks
thanks!
Yes,  I've been researching and reading (ken wheeler, eric p dollard,  tesla,  Steinmetz,  Thomson  etc) for a while now. And i feel it's time to share my insights.

I have seen the influence of  aluminium foil(mirror)  on the resonant signal,  but i haven't seen it floating. I only work with low power settings so far. But I could a new coil,  and get a stronger dc power source.

it fills me with joy, to be able to share my insights.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 19, 2017, 01:16:55 AM
thanks!
Yes,  I've been researching and reading (ken wheeler, eric p dollard,  tesla,  Steinmetz,  Thomson  etc) for a while now. And i feel it's time to share my insights.

I have seen the influence of  aluminium foil(mirror)  on the resonant signal,  but i haven't seen it floating. I only work with low power settings so far. But I could a new coil,  and get a stronger dc power source.

it fills me with joy, to be able to share my insights.

Hi evostars ,
I full understand you,  because i have the same feelings inside me  , i really like to share what i discover and learn , but lot of people are not full honesty because only try get some vantage from hard work from others . Sometimes a simple thank is enough to fill our inner inside but even that is so much to lot of people .  seems most like live in the "dark"

Good luck to your research

cheers
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: e2matrix on March 19, 2017, 01:57:12 AM
Thanks to you both - the bifilar pancake truly is a fascinating coil.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: pomodoro on March 19, 2017, 02:21:43 AM
Nice work, I like the calm style of the videos and the explanations were done well. Keep up the great work. I haven't done much research in this field, but a static magnetic field in the coil when driven by ac seems strange. My first thoughts are that the coil driver is not providing a perfectly balanced sine wave. The residual DC from the inbance causes the static magnetic field. Is this a possibility?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Jeg on March 19, 2017, 11:41:04 AM
Nice work, I like the calm style of the videos and the explanations were done well. Keep up the great work.

Indeed very chill out videos. Keep it up Evostars and thanks for sharing your thoughts. ;)

My first thoughts are that the coil driver is not providing a perfectly balanced sine wave. The residual DC from the inbance causes the static magnetic field. Is this a possibility?

I do believe the same. One direction pulse driving, leads to a static magnetic field illusion. Actually is a pulsed, one way direction magnetic field.

Regards
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 19, 2017, 11:47:38 AM
Thanks to you both - the bifilar pancake truly is a fascinating coil.
Thank you!
Indeed it is.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 19, 2017, 11:52:34 AM
Nice work, I like the calm style of the videos and the explanations were done well. Keep up the great work. I haven't done much research in this field, but a static magnetic field in the coil when driven by ac seems strange. My first thoughts are that the coil driver is not providing a perfectly balanced sine wave. The residual DC from the inbance causes the static magnetic field. Is this a possibility?
Thank you!
I'm not using sine waves. They dont work. I use very short energetic pulses. The IGBT driver is doing that. But a square wave from a pulse generator also works.
I think the static magnetic field is a result of the standing wave created at resonance.

when water is standing still, the wind blows, and shows traveling waves.
But when the water is flowing fast, and hits a rock, it flows around it, and produces a standing wave.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 19, 2017, 11:58:03 AM
Indeed very chill out videos. Keep it up Evostars and thanks for sharing your thoughts. ;)

I do believe the same. One direction pulse driving, leads to a static magnetic field illusion. Actually is a pulsed, one way direction magnetic field.

Regards

Thank you.

Keep in mind, I have 3 coils on top off eachother.  the middle coil is freely resonanting with the field produced by the top and bottom ones.
The top and bottom coil are pulsed (not sine wave but short sharp pulses, in the video you see a square wave, of the pulse generator, but the igbt gives a energetic pulse)

The top and bottom coils are in series, and the pulse therefore gives a opposite field above and below the coils. the coils are therefor in attraction.

lets say a pulsed coil, produces a north above and a south beneath it.  then the north and south are joined when you stack them. in this place of attraction the center coil is placed, in the north south field.

But as I have shown in the video (magnetism) there is almost NO attraction of the magnetic fields!

I think we really need to look at the dielectric field, the capacitance. and the properties of this field. As it seems to be the origin of the magnetic fields.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 19, 2017, 01:38:00 PM
I've made an update to "The dielectric field of a bifilar pancake coil" video.
In this earlier video I showed the effect of grounding on a LED array.
In this addition I show the effect of grounding on two capacitors.
https://youtu.be/4_q8TjEMM50 (https://youtu.be/4_q8TjEMM50)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: dieter on March 19, 2017, 02:23:20 PM
Very interesting project. You may want to look at "Jack Noskills" project, in which he uses a high capacitance coil too, but what is diffrent is: he does not connect the two windings, but uses them with open ends, so the coil may load, but no current may flow. He achieves some interesting results, some similar to yours, such as bypassing high resistors, and difficulty to convert the output to a form that (not only eg. lightbulbs, but also) inductive Loads can use.


I got to find the link...


BTW. would be nice to have some essential data here:
Pulse frequency, duty time, voltage, coil specs, any diodes to guide the collapsing fields back emf...


kr
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: dieter on March 19, 2017, 02:34:35 PM
Ok here's Jack Noskills' thread/ project:


http://overunity.com/17119/pulling-energy-from-the-ambient-energy-field-using-a-coil-capacitor/msg501319/#msg501319


I don't mean to become offtopic, there seem to be some interesting parallels.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 19, 2017, 06:37:07 PM
Ok here's Jack Noskills' thread/ project:
http://overunity.com/17119/pulling-energy-from-the-ambient-energy-field-using-a-coil-capacitor/msg501319/#msg501319
I don't mean to become offtopic, there seem to be some interesting parallels.
Thanks for the link! I will read it soon.
for the specs you ask about. the video already states alot. 3 coil stacked,  pulsed with a pulse generator (I use a igbt driver but it's nit necessary).  the frequency is, the resonant frequency of the coil,  and depends on the iinductance and capacitance of the coil.

I will make another video about the resonant frequency, and standing waves.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 20, 2017, 09:43:17 AM
The bifilar pancake coil, is a interesting coil. It has inductance, but more importantly it has increased capacitance, due to the high voltage difference between the coil windings. It looks like a coil that is a capacitor at the same time.

When the coil is freely resonanting at its resonant frequency, it produces a static magnetic field. At the same time it produces a dynamic dielectric field.

This dielectric field has interesting capabilities. it seems as if it has been stripped of the magnetic field component. It interacts with ground signals. It is able to transfer energy through one wire, and produces voltage in metal objects that are in the field (but not connected).

 I really feel that this is the pure form of electricity. And Im very curious about its properties.
I could not find solid info about it, so I started to do my own research. and I was amazed with the results. To fill the information void about this, i have started to make a video series about it.

https://youtu.be/xHDrmGPY-78 (https://youtu.be/xHDrmGPY-78)  about the dielectric field of a bifilar coil
https://youtu.be/uhY27Zoor-Q (https://youtu.be/uhY27Zoor-Q)  about the magnetic field of a bifilar coil (at resonance and DC)

I looked at your three clips and you seem like a very nice person and you have lots of enthusiasm.  For you there is a base issue related to your investigations.  Do you try to pursue learning about conventional electronics, or do you ignore conventional electronics and only pursue learning about so-called "alternative" electronics?  Or do you try to pursue a mixture of the two?  That's your choice to make.

What I am noticing is that this forum is not a good learning environment and if you want to learn about conventional electronics you are probably going to have to pursue that path by yourself or with other people.  I am quite certain that many people that watched your clips that like "alternative" electronics but also have a reasonable understanding of conventional electronics were not helping you when they could have helped you.  They are not sharing good information with you because doing so would make them feel uncomfortable for some strange reason.

I am just going to make some comments from watching your clips the other night.

For starters, there is no such thing as single-wire energy transmission.  There is always an "invisible" AC-coupling to the ground plane for both your device under test and your signal source.  That's why you can get the capacitor to charge with one wire in your tests.  Why does the voltage get higher when you put your fingers on the capacitors?  The answer is that your fingers and body provide a more robust (higher capacitance) signal path to the ground plane allowing the AC signal source to add larger puffs of charge to the capacitor.  Larger pumping puffs of charge into the capacitor means that the capacitor reaches a higher quiescent voltage where the added puffs of charge are in balance with the reverse current leaking through the diodes.

When you place your two pancake coils together with North-North poles facing each other, how come you can barely observe any repulsion between the two pancake coils even through with your compass you can definitely detect the field for each individual coil?  The answer is based on geometry such that the divergence of the magnetic field produced by each coil in the close proximity of each coil is very low.  Very low divergence equals very low force.  A hypothetical zero divergence in the magnetic field for one, the other, or both coils would give you a zero repulsion force between the coils.

When your pancake coil is truly in a self-resonant mode, then by definition both the electric field between the turns of the coil and the magnetic field around the coil have to be oscillating back and forth.  So your conclusion there about a constant unchanging magnetic field around the exterior of the coil in "self resonance" is incorrect.  Why can you observe an apparent DC magnetic field around the "self resonating" coil with your compass?  It's because your signal driver circuit, even through it is exciting the coil with an AC signal, is presumably also driving the coil with a small DC component such that you can detect the DC field with the compass needle when you move it around the coil.  As a suggestion, you can make a small coil of say 20 turns about the diameter of your thumb and attach that to your scope probe to make an AC magnetic field "sniffer" to check the strength and orientation of the AC magnetic field around the pancake coils.

Resonance of a circuit and the self-resonance of a coil have specific meanings that must be understood and then measured properly to confirm that you are truly observing the phenomenon of resonance.  Just observing a peak voltage reading on your multimeter or on your scope waveform is not an instant "confirmation of resonance."  It will take you some time to develop a skill set to correctly determine when you are observing resonance.  Part of that exercise involves actually identifying the mechanism of the resonance and the components of the resonance.  In other words, about every two minutes in your clips you are proclaiming "resonance."  That is not the case, and these things have to be carefully determined and measured.

Now, some people are going to be upset that I made this posting.  I am trying to suggest to you that if you are interested in electronics and electronics experimentation there is a vast amount of knowledge out there.  It's up to you to determine what path you want to take.  And I am disappointed that many of the people following you that know better are not making any real effort to give you some good and useful information.  Many people have seen the types of things that you are doing dozens of times before.  They only want to throw the usual "alternative" electronics information at you.

I am not here to engage with you or try to teach you.  I just came here to shine some light on your round of experiments with your pancake coils and let you know that there are options.

Good luck in your experiments.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 20, 2017, 10:50:00 AM
Thanks for you opinions Milehigh,
I have my classic electronic education, but it is related to sound electronics.  it was a good learning school.
I also have limited knowledge of radio electronics. But with AM radio techniques there is alot of mis information.
So now I just look at things, my way. based on observation. Shure I will make mistakes. but thats ok with me. As long as Im learning,  and more importantly,  think for myself. I know the answers are In me. The are not found on the cencored books and youtube.

basically, I do not believe in a electron/photon PARTICLE... 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 20, 2017, 12:19:59 PM

"What I am noticing is that this forum is not a good learning environment and if you want to learn about conventional electronics you are probably going to have to pursue that path by yourself or with other people"
 
"For starters, there is no such thing as single-wire energy transmission"

MileHigh

fool is the one who thinks already knows everything closing the "window" to learn and improve their wisdom
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 20, 2017, 12:25:54 PM
fool is the one who thinks already knows everything closing the "window" to learn and improve their wisdom

Oh really?  Am I closing the window?  Or am I opening the window?

And who is the real fool?

Absolutely NOT, there is no such thing as singe-wire energy transmission.  Understanding that requires understanding energy.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 20, 2017, 12:41:45 PM
Quote
there is no such thing as singe-wire energy transmission
So you see, you're still an ignorant - the internet is full of it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_transmission_line) (how you could become a hero member with 7379 posts goes over my head).
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 20, 2017, 12:44:02 PM
Oh really?  Am I closing the window?  Or am I opening the window?

And who is the real fool?

Absolutely NOT, there is no such thing as singe-wire energy transmission.  Understanding that requires understanding energy.

MileHigh ,

Like you give your opinion,  for sure i can refute them too like you do all time .
The window is close to you or anyone  when you think that is nothing more to learn . Maybe because with your age you only able to use your crystallized intelligence  and not the fluid intelligence , and i not censure that , but you could not assume something like absolute because the history already told us that what is right today tomorrow could not be so right .

Never forget one thing :
Laws were created by men, do you know someone more imperfect than man? 

Have a nice day
 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 20, 2017, 12:56:35 PM
Some laws are created by man and other laws are natural laws that are defined by Nature.

Power is the product of an 'across' variable and a 'through' variable.  Energy is the integration of power with respect to time, as defined by Nature.

Across variable      Through variable     Result

Velocity                Force                     Linear Mechanical Power
Angular Velocity    Torque                   Rotational Mechanical power
Voltage                 Current                 Electrical Power

This is what Nature is telling us, this is natural law.

For so-called "single-wire AC power transmission" you typically supply the "voltage only."  However current flows through AC capacitive coupling.  Without the AC capacitive coupling there is no current flow and therefore there is no power transmission.  Current must flow in "single-wire AC power transmission" as defined by Nature.

If you are going to understand power and energy for all of your experiments, you must understand this.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 20, 2017, 01:15:19 PM
Some laws are created by man and other laws are natural laws that are defined by Nature.

Power is the product of an 'across' variable and a 'through' variable.  Energy is the integration of power with respect to time, as defined by Nature.

Across variable      Through variable     Result

Velocity                Force                     Linear Mechanical Power
Angular Velocity    Torque                   Rotational Mechanical power
Voltage                 Current                 Electrical Power

This is what Nature is telling us, this is natural law.

For so-called "single-wire AC power transmission" you typically supply the "voltage only."  However current flows through AC capacitive coupling.  Without the AC capacitive coupling there is no current flow and therefore there is no power transmission.  Current must flow in "single-wire AC power transmission" as defined by Nature.

If you are going to understand power and energy for all of your experiments, you must understand this.

Hi MileHigh ,
You give the perfect example that your are only use your crystallized intelligence  nothing more and that is the point , your are not available to learn nothing more because you only use what you already learn .
Everyday new laws are "rebirth" by new discoveries made by scientist and university and that is unquestionable.
Hope now you understand the meaning of my words . 
I never say that you don't have knowledge, but thinking that you know everything is a terrible mistake by you .
But of course is only my opinion , and even i could be wrong , but i not close the "window" to learn yet ;)

Have a nice day 

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 20, 2017, 03:07:49 PM
I would suggest we stay on topic, and respect each others truths.
Nobody is right or wrong, we all have a unique perspective on reality. As we are all unique individuals.
If we can listen with respect for our unique differences, we might even learn something. There are many truths.
For me the truth is flexible, for else, I could not learn.

for example, my truth, is that velocity, is not dependent on force. We fly with great velocity through the universe. What does require force is CHANGE of velocity, also known as acceleration. F=M*A (yes... Newton).

At the same time, nothing in nature goes in a straight line (velocity) but ALL is curve linear.  We fly through the universe with our solar system, but still, we have a change in velocity, because we circle around our milky way galaxy. 
And newton's apple did fall from the tree, but at the same time the tree and the apple were spinning around the axis of the earth, around the sun, around the galaxy.

It all is about perspective. And that perspective is unique to all of us.

Now... Lets get back to the bifilar coil. And the magic it has to offer us.
I'm working on the resonance video, and the relation between a capacitor and a inductor in a oscilating circuit, and its resonant frequency. and the simularity it has with a bifilar coil with its capacitance and inductance.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 23, 2017, 11:29:40 PM
If you put a sheet of aluminum foil on top of your pancake if are properly tuned it will levitate the foil because diamagnetic properties of aluminum .

I tried this but with no results. I tried serveral ways, above, below, single pulsed coil, free resonant coil, little picece of foil, big piece of foil, circular piece of foil with a hole in the center.... 

Maybe this is because the pancake coil has the north ans south magnetic poles in the same space? There is no pole separation as in a solenoid.

What I did observe, and was expecting, was a change in capacitance, and therefor a change in the resonant frequency.

Nelson Rochaa, could you tell a little bit more about this floating aluminium foil setup? Could it be I need more voltage? The pulse driver is 12V but the resonant coil is hundreds of volts. Maybe, I need to get into the thousends of volts of dielectric resonant (radiant) energy?

Any comments are welcome!

(ps the resonant video is not yet done, it was a bit harder to put it in a relative short video).
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 24, 2017, 12:34:04 AM
I tried this but with no results. I tried serveral ways, above, below, single pulsed coil, free resonant coil, little picece of foil, big piece of foil, circular piece of foil with a hole in the center.... 

Maybe this is because the pancake coil has the north ans south magnetic poles in the same space? There is no pole separation as in a solenoid.

What I did observe, and was expecting, was a change in capacitance, and therefor a change in the resonant frequency.

Nelson Rochaa, could you tell a little bit more about this floating aluminium foil setup? Could it be I need more voltage? The pulse driver is 12V but the resonant coil is hundreds of volts. Maybe, I need to get into the thousends of volts of dielectric resonant (radiant) energy?

Any comments are welcome!

(ps the resonant video is not yet done, it was a bit harder to put it in a relative short video).

Hi Evostars ,
I tested with aluminum foil full covering the coil .
You could see by the video link that i send to you that i'm not able to measure any magnetic field orientation even when i connect a load in the receiver coil look please with attention that point  .
I will suggest to you,  that you test again but with a higher output , i use in that particular test a input of 24v  otherwise i will try make a video demo in future because i don't know some details like the frequency you are using to pulse the coil or the way you pulse the coil ;) .

Good luck

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 24, 2017, 12:57:46 AM
Thanks Nelson Rocha,
My setup is using a IGBT pulse driver (PWM-OCXi v2.1 from  rmcybernetics.com, it makes life easy), It dumps the load of a 2200uF capacitor charged by a 12V 1A adaptor into the coil (low impedance maybe less then 2 ohm), creating short sharp pulses.

The coil can be:
- a single bifilar pancake coil pulsed, with a resonant bifilar coil on top (and one below as i prefer)
or two coils in series connected and pulsed, with the third resonant coil in between.

I usualy connect the outside wire to ground, on the south side.

I saw your video with the compass, indeed the compass isnt moving, but I could only see one needle, and it was pointing to the center. So, maybe If you make another video, hold the coil on its side, so the needle doesnt become stuck as it will be dragged down.

It would be a nice video to see the aluminium floating!

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 24, 2017, 01:12:26 AM
about that IGBT pusle driver, It is capable of making square waves, but due to the low impedance and the simple wall power adapter,  it generates these short pulses, due to the shortcut.  And thats exactly what this coil likes. much better than square waves.

I just made pictures of the pulse driver, these show the igbt, and the igbtdriver
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 24, 2017, 01:25:02 AM
Thanks Nelson Rocha,
My setup is using a IGBT pulse driver (PWM-OCXi v2.1 from  rmcybernetics.com, it makes life easy), It dumps the load of a 2200uF capacitor charged by a 12V 1A adaptor into the coil (low impedance maybe less then 2 ohm), creating short sharp pulses.

The coil can be:
- a single bifilar pancake coil pulsed, with a resonant bifilar coil on top (and one below as i prefer)
or two coils in series connected and pulsed, with the third resonant coil in between.

I usualy connect the outside wire to ground, on the south side.

I saw your video with the compass, indeed the compass isnt moving, but I could only see one needle, and it was pointing to the center. So, maybe If you make another video, hold the coil on its side, so the needle doesnt become stuck as it will be dragged down.

It would be a nice video to see the aluminium floating!

Hi Evostar,
The two compass are static even before i start feed the circuit because the needles are in their normal position .
You could see too, after i approach the magnet they change their position under the strong magnetic field of magnet but  they return to their normal position even far way outside of coil .  At minute 1:18 i put one of compass under the wire that feed the load (bulb) and their position should change  but needle not change in their position .

I will try next week making new video to show that and aluminum foil levitate .

cheers
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 24, 2017, 01:29:41 AM
Hi Evostar,
The two compass are static even before i start feed the circuit because the needles are in their normal position .
You could see too, after i approach the magnet they change their position under the strong magnetic field of magnet but  they return to their normal position even far way outside of coil .  At minute 1:18 i put one of compass under the wire that feed the load (bulb) and their position should change  but needle not change in their position .

I will try next week making new video to show that and aluminum foil levitate .

cheers

Indeed I rewatched it. I didnt remember it correctly. my fault.

Usually when I check for the magnetic field with dc, I put 2 amps into the coil (as the magnetic field induction is dependend on the amps, not the volts).

I would love to see that foil video :)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 24, 2017, 09:23:20 AM
You don't need anything fancy to levitate or repel plates of non-ferrous metals with AC. Just a Variac plugged into the wall and a suitable heavy electromagnet coil will do it. And you can levitate all kinds of stuff, conductive or not (aluminum foil, paper, styrofoam, plastic balls, etc) with HVDC.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: pomodoro on March 24, 2017, 02:24:38 PM
Anyone tried making an electromagnet?, Some internet sites claim tesla's bilfilar winding with the same number of turns makes for a much stronger pull, lifting way more paperclips. Since its DC operated it cant have anything to do with resonance or extra capacitance. I'll give it a go soon myself cause you can't trust all the creeps out there,  but if true, what would be the reasoning behind its extra performance with I'm assuming the same current?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 24, 2017, 04:14:42 PM
Anyone tried making an electromagnet?, Some internet sites claim tesla's bilfilar winding with the same number of turns makes for a much stronger pull, lifting way more paperclips. Since its DC operated it cant have anything to do with resonance or extra capacitance. I'll give it a go soon myself cause you can't trust all the creeps out there,  but if true, what would be the reasoning behind its extra performance with I'm assuming the same current?

Pomodoro,

Tesla bifilar coils have twice the inductance of single wire coils of the same gauge and copper weight; This means that the bifilar has the potential to generate twice the magnetic field strength at the cost of double the power. Increasing input two times to the single wire coil would melt the insulation, not increase magnetic field strength.

Measuring field strength between the two types of coils with an input less then or equal to half the double strength produces no difference between the magnetic fields.

I performed the two types of coils test with iorn nail cores and paper clips. One nail will generate twice the permanent magnetic field strength if you saturate both coils. The bifilar will pick up twice the paper clips; However, the bifilar coil eats up twice the power. I tried to make sense of this to Conradelectro, Milehigh and Tinselkoala all three of whom stubbornly ran tests of undercharged coils that deflected compass needles the same amount with the same input. I told them hundreds of times to fully charge the bifilar to test for the double strength, but I could never get anyone to pay attention to me. The additional inductance is a product of "Mutual Coupling", like Flynn's "Phanthom Magnet".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mxtwS2OsaA&t=5s
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 24, 2017, 05:29:17 PM
Back to your old pattern of misrepresenting my work and that of others, I see.

Pomodoro, I encourage you to do your own testing of the claims made by synchro1.

Quote
The bifilar will pick up twice the paper clips; However, the bifilar coil eats up twice the power.
  Insert ROFL image here.

"eats up" ? You mean that you _fed_ the bifilar coil with twice the power of the monofilar coil in order to get it to pick up more paper clips. You did this by increasing the voltage supplied, which in turn increased the current through the coil. DUH... of COURSE you will get a stronger field in this case.

With the _SAME_ current fed to both coils they will both have the same magnetic field produced and will pick up the same number of paper clips. Of course using iron/steel nails for this moronic test will skew your results because you are magnetizing the nails themselves, and probably also your paper clips.



 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 24, 2017, 05:40:10 PM
Back to your old pattern of misrepresenting my work and that of others, I see.

Pomodoro, I encourage you to do your own testing of the claims made by synchro1.
  Insert ROFL image here.

"eats up" ? You mean that you _fed_ the bifilar coil with twice the power of the monofilar coil in order to get it to pick up more paper clips. You did this by increasing the voltage supplied, which in turn increased the current through the coil. DUH... of COURSE you will get a stronger field in this case.

With the _SAME_ current fed to both coils they will both have the same magnetic field produced and will pick up the same number of paper clips. Of course using iron/steel nails for this moronic test will skew your results because you are magnetizing the nails themselves, and probably also your paper clips.

Look at my hex nut and Leedskalnin locking videos. Snap charge and pulse magnetization is a natural event. Twice the current spontaneously jumps from the battery into the bifilar when the electrodes swipe the battery terminals and the iron nail core instantly maqgnetizes to twice the strength of the single wire core. The bifilar really pops compared to the single wire coil. You yourself mention the effect in your bifilar to single wire coil comparison video, and it's clearly visible to the viewer.

My advice to you Mr. Hogwallow, is to measure the inductance in Henries of both the bifilar and the single wire pancake coils with an inductance meter and see for yourself what the difference is.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 24, 2017, 06:03:08 PM
Quote
Tesla bifilar coils have twice the inductance of single wire coils of the same gauge and copper weight

This is FALSE.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 24, 2017, 06:05:14 PM
Look at my hex nut and Leedskalnin locking videos. Snap charge and pulse magnetization is a natural event. Twice the current spontaneously jumps from the battery into the bifilar when the electrodes swipe the battery terminals and the iron nail core instantly maqgnetizes to twice the strength of the single wire core. The bifilar really pops compared to the single wire coil. You yourself mention the effect in your bifilar to single wire coil comparison video, and it's clearly visible to the viewer.

My advice to you Mr. Hogwallow, is to measure the inductance in Henries of both the bifilar and the single wire pancake coils with an inductance meter and see for yourself what the difference is.

Still misrepresenting my work. And I've made the measurements, as you can see.

Take your own advice and do the measurements yourself... which you have clearly never done.

"swipe the battery terminals".... that's laughable. You have no idea what current you are putting into your coils or whether you are equalizing conditions. You really need to learn how to do experiments properly and how to MAKE MEASUREMENTS instead of spouting nonsense.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 24, 2017, 06:42:37 PM
Anyone tried making an electromagnet?, Some internet sites claim tesla's bilfilar winding with the same number of turns makes for a much stronger pull, lifting way more paperclips. Since its DC operated it cant have anything to do with resonance or extra capacitance. I'll give it a go soon myself cause you can't trust all the creeps out there,  but if true, what would be the reasoning behind its extra performance with I'm assuming the same current?
Yes the field is stronger. Also, with a DC measurement, the resistance is differnent compared to a normal coil. This video shows it clearly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNAZ6heorEc

Tesla explains it in his patent (512340):
In electric apparatus or systems in which alternating currents are employed the self-induction of the coils or conductors may, and, in fact, in many cases does operate disadvantageously by giving rise to false currents which often reduce what is known as the commercial efficiency of the apparatus composing the system or operate detrimentally in other respects. The effects of self-induction, above referred to, are known to be neutralized by proportioning to a proper degree the capacity of the circuit with relation to the self-induction and frequency of the currents. This has been accomplished heretofore by the use of condensers constructed and applied as separate instruments.

My present invention has for its object to avoid the employment of condensers which are expensive, cumbersome and difficult to maintain in perfect condition, and to so construct the coils themselves as to accomplish the same ultimate object.

end of tesla quote

To me this says the bifilar coil, is dodging lenz law (which isnt a law, but a observation)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 24, 2017, 06:58:45 PM
@ tinselkoala & sychro1
The Bifilar (pancake) coil is mostly different in the capacitance, between the windings.

 Its about the stronger dielectric field.

The difference of the magnetic field strength comes from the absence of the Lenz "law" effect, that in a normal coil gives a counteracting magnetic force, weakening the field (eating power). The dielectric field prevents this action (according to teslas patent as citated before)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 24, 2017, 07:10:23 PM
"absence of lenz law effect"




I almost lost a kidney





Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 24, 2017, 07:12:10 PM
Hi Evostars,
The two compass are static even before i start feed the circuit because the needles are in their normal position .
You could see too, after i approach the magnet they change their position under the strong magnetic field of magnet but  they return to their normal position even far way outside of coil .  At minute 1:18 i put one of compass under the wire that feed the load (bulb) and their position should change  but needle not change in their position .

I rewatched it a few more times. It really has no magnetic field. It is differnt from what i am used to.  I wonder how you energise you coils. It looks you use a pulse generator, with a half bridge mosfet pulse driver, correct? one mosfet for the up ramp, and one for the down ramp of the pulse signal?

I also looked at your bifilar pancake coils. It looks like the 2 windings are on top of eachother (instead of next to eachother), like a roll of speaker wire. Is that correct? Two pancakes on top of eachother, connected in series?

That could explain alot, as the capacitance it then 90 degrees rotated (in between the 2 coils on top of eachother, connected in series)
 I Think im going to try that myself :)  It seems that the magnetic field and the dielectric are not phase related (vectors) anymore, but also at a 90 degree angle.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 24, 2017, 07:13:15 PM
"absence of lenz law effect"

I almost lost a kidney
Good you have 2 of them!

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 24, 2017, 07:56:30 PM
Yes the field is stronger. Also, with a DC measurement, the resistance is differnent compared to a normal coil. This video shows it clearly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNAZ6heorEc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNAZ6heorEc)

Ooh is that TheOldScientist clip ever cringeworthy.  He shows a difference in DC resistance between a regular coil and a bifilar coil where both coils are supposed to have the same total wire length and DC resistance.  He acknowledges this apparent anomaly that does not make sense but then simply moves on and accepts the measurement.  One possible explanation is that he has an accidental short in one of the two half-coils that make up the bifilar coil.  There is no way you should look at a measurement that you know is wrong and accept it.

But the super cringeworthyness comes up when you see his jagged scope traces and the complete ragged mess of a scope trace at the end of his clip.  He makes no comment about that issue.  He may have been feeding a square wave into his coils under test which would be a mortal sin and a great display of ignorance.  However, I can't be sure about that, I don't know the true reason for the jagged scope traces.  However, what I do know is that he should have been observing near-perfect sine waves on his scope trace.  The fact that he is not seeing sine waves is telling you that something is seriously wrong.  Either way it is a lose for TheOldScientist.

Sorry, but I personally have very low confidence in TheOldScientist.  He is free energy clickbait.

Finally, the strength of the magnetic field generated by a coil is derived from the ampere-turns.  A regular coll and a bifilar coil where both coils have the same number of turns will generate a magnetic field of the same strength.  This is hard knowledge that is carved in stone and can easily be verified with proper measurements.  The user Conradelectro did the experiment himself and posted his clips.  So that is one myth about the bifilar coil that is not true.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 24, 2017, 08:13:37 PM
Tesla explains it in his patent (512340):
In electric apparatus or systems in which alternating currents are employed the self-induction of the coils or conductors may, and, in fact, in many cases does operate disadvantageously by giving rise to false currents which often reduce what is known as the commercial efficiency of the apparatus composing the system or operate detrimentally in other respects. The effects of self-induction, above referred to, are known to be neutralized by proportioning to a proper degree the capacity of the circuit with relation to the self-induction and frequency of the currents. This has been accomplished heretofore by the use of condensers constructed and applied as separate instruments.

My present invention has for its object to avoid the employment of condensers which are expensive, cumbersome and difficult to maintain in perfect condition, and to so construct the coils themselves as to accomplish the same ultimate object.

end of tesla quote

To me this says the bifilar coil, is dodging lenz law (which isnt a law, but a observation)

For the Tesla bifilar coil patent you have to take early twentieth century English and translate it into modern technical English.   The "false currents" are excessive current flowing in the wires because of low power factor for a device or machine that has mains-fed electrical coils.  He is saying that his bifilar coil incorporates the power factor correction capacitance within the coil itself.  This is to reduce costs because apparently in the early twentieth century capacitors were expensive and not in commercial production.

Just search on "using capacitors to correct power factor."

Here is a good link from that search that gives you the full number crunching:

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/alternating-current/chpt-11/practical-power-factor-correction/

I seriously doubt that bifilar pancake coils were ever used in some kind of AC mains powered device or machine to correct for the power factor for the device or machine.  I view this as a purely academic exercise where Tesla filed the patent in case somehow bifilar coils made it into a useful electrical machine.

All of this has nothing to do with "dodging Lenz's Law."

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 24, 2017, 08:34:35 PM
We don't know how that so called Tesla bifilar is connected. There's a strong chance it's hairpin not serial. Secondly, "The old scientist" meant to say "Inductance" and used the term "Resistance" by mistake, largely because he has English for a second language.

I'm explaining why my Tesla bifilar picked up twice the trombone clips in my video. No one ever offered an alternative explanation, nor has anyone ever been able to replicate the test.

"When you have a bifilar pair like this, you can measure the inductance of one of the coils, ignoring the other; call that value of inductance L.

Now, if the two coils are connected in series aiding configuration, the inductance will be 4*L.

If they are connected the other way, series opposing, the inductance of the combination will be very small".

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 24, 2017, 09:51:26 PM
MH & TK,

I just tested a biflar for inductance in Henries and resistance in Ohms. The inductance of each coil separately is 1.45 mh apiece or L. The inductance of the serial connected bifilar (Beginning of one coil wire to the end wire of the other) measured at 5.81 mh. That's four times the inductance of one individual coil. The inductance of the serial connection is 4 L. The inductance of the hairpin connection is equal to .725 mh or 1/2 L. Resistance of each coil separately is 2.5 Ohms or R. Serial and hairpin connections both equal 5 Ohms, or 2 R.

I can upload a definitive video and put an end to this controversy once and for all. Any more wise guy back talk from you two trolls?

The inductance of the hairpin (Beginning of one coil wire to the beginning of the other) is 1/2 the inductance of one individual coil. That equals 8 times the difference in inductance in Henries between the two alternative possible bifilar connections! An enormous difference. Hold the pickles!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 24, 2017, 10:50:55 PM
The inductance of a coil is proportional to the square of the number of the turns.  A 100-turn coil will have four times the inductance of a 50-turn coil.

A 100-turn regular coil will have the same inductance as a series-bifilar coil consisting of 50 turns in series with 50 turns.  TK posted pictures of a regular coil and an equivalent series-bifilar coil connected to an inductance meter where the inductance meter shows the same number of Henries for each coil.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 24, 2017, 11:02:48 PM
The inductance of a coil is proportional to the square of the number of the turns.  A 100-turn coil will have four times the inductance of a 50-turn coil.

A 100-turn regular coil will have the same inductance as a series-bifilar coil consisting of 50 turns in series with 50 turns.  TK posted pictures of a regular coil and an equivalent series-bifilar coil connected to an inductance meter where the inductance meter shows the same number of Henries for each coil.

Milehigh,

Hey...Wind one and measure it for yourself as I just did then get back with your results. TK's inductance meter is "A Piece of Crap" China Palace back ally trash salvage midnight special!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 24, 2017, 11:23:31 PM
Milehigh,

Hey...Wind one and measure it for yourself as I just did then get back with your results.

Ahhh ! One of the best things i ear in that topic :)  Good shot synchro1 , sometimes someone need to say some trues , to some fellows that simple not show nothing all this years but only open so large their mouth to criticize the nice work of persons like TheOldScientist without even think they not contribute in nothing make that type of considerations . Seems they have special pleasure put dislike in videos and make bad considerations about valid works. Real sad see that type of behavior .

really sad

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: AlienGrey on March 24, 2017, 11:43:20 PM
Ahhh ! One of the best things i ear in that topic :)  Good shot synchro1 , sometimes someone need to say some trues , to some fellows that simple not show nothing all this years but only open so large their mouth to criticize the nice work of persons like TheOldScientist without even think they not contribute in nothing make that type of considerations . Seems they have special pleasure put dislike in videos and make bad considerations about valid works. Real sad see that type of behavior .

really sad
Hi Nelson well it looks like we are on a learning curve here for through's coil winders who didn't know and the mothers who didn't teach manners and respect off other inner souls into there kids.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 24, 2017, 11:47:09 PM
Ahhh ! One of the best things i ear in that topic :)  Good shot synchro1 , sometimes someone need to say some trues , to some fellows that simple not show nothing all this years but only open so large their mouth to criticize the nice work of persons like TheOldScientist without even think they not contribute in nothing make that type of considerations . Seems they have special pleasure put dislike in videos and make bad considerations about valid works. Real sad see that type of behavior .

really sad

No Nelson, that was a fair criticism of TheOldScienist.  I take no pleasure in it, but it is a service to people that may not know for themselves.  If you want to buy a car and you know nothing about cars you get your friend that knows about cars to help you make a purchase.  This makes sense, correct?  The same thing applies here.  Like it or not, TheOldScientist's clip is a bad clip.  When you excite a coil with sine waves, the response from the coil should be sine waves.  This is FACT, and clearly there was a MAJOR PROBLEM in TheOldScientist's clip and he did not even mention it.  So you need to understand and acknowledge this.  No person's work is free from critique and I have looked at many of TheOldScientist's clips and I have not been impressed by most of them.

Back to coils.  Why is the inductance of a coil proportional to the square of the number of turns?  I did the experiment a long time ago, and I am not going to do it today.

You can also use your intellect to answer the question and actually understand WHY, and not just accept it as another "rule."  This clip answers the questions HOW and WHY:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z85J5eW1C1A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z85J5eW1C1A)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: gyulasun on March 25, 2017, 12:32:18 AM
synchro1,

If you have a bifilar coil and you measured 1.45mH for any one of the windings out of the two and then you measure 5.81mH for the two windings in series connection as you wrote then there is nothing wrong: you are correct with this.

The problem is not this but as follows:
if you make a single wire coil with the same amount of wire you used for the two bifilar windings  i.e. the DC resistance of this single wire coil would be also 5 Ohm (same wire length and same wire OD like the two windings together have in the bifilar) and the mechanical sizes such as the diameter and the length of this coil would be nicely comparable to that of your bifilar coil,
then what L inductance do you think you would measure for this single wire coil?

Because this is the real question here to answer, right?

The answer is you would measure pretty close to the 5.81mH L value. 

I built two such coils, one with a single wire from say 10m long piece of wire, label it as coil A and then I made a bifilar coil from 2 x 5m long wires guided in parallel and connected the two wires in series as you wrote, label this as coil B. I measured very nearly identical L inductances for coil A and coil B. Back then this comparison was done not only by me but Magluvin and TinselKoala: we demonstrated this and you continuously criticised all 3 of us, often with rude words. Three persons separately cannot have crappy L meters.  :o

Remember what you wrote in your post #33 above:

"Tesla bifilar coils have twice the inductance of single wire coils of the same gauge and copper weight" 

why I quoted this (though the first part of it is not correct) is that it shows you are aware of the condition: the single wire coil should have the same copper weight as the two windings have in the bifilar coil, hence this should mean the length of the wire used for the single wire coil and the added length of the two windings in the bifilar coil should be equal and of the same wire gauge. 

Please demonstrate the measured L inductance of your single wire coil wound with the conditions above.
It is fine you tested your bifilar coil inductance for the individual windings and for their series connection. This latter nicely justifies that if you double the number of turns you get 4 times the inductance, right?


Gyula
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 25, 2017, 01:04:44 AM
No Nelson, that was a fair criticism of TheOldScienist.  I take no pleasure in it, but it is a service to people that may not know for themselves.  If you want to buy a car and you know nothing about cars you get your friend that knows about cars to help you make a purchase.  This makes sense, correct?  The same thing applies here.  Like it or not, TheOldScientist's clip is a bad clip.  When you excite a coil with sine waves, the response from the coil should be sine waves.  This is FACT, and clearly there was a MAJOR PROBLEM in TheOldScientist's clip and he did not even mention it.  So you need to understand and acknowledge this.  No person's work is free from critique and I have looked at many of TheOldScientist's clips and I have not been impressed by most of them.

Back to coils.  Why is the inductance of a coil proportional to the square of the number of turns?  I did the experiment a long time ago, and I am not going to do it today.

You can also use your intellect to answer the question and actually understand WHY, and not just accept it as another "rule."  This clip answers the questions HOW and WHY:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z85J5eW1C1A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z85J5eW1C1A)

MH Solenoids coils and pancake coils have different behavior because their self induction are different , so you simple can not compare in the same perspective when measure a solenoid normal coil or bifilar pancake coil .
About you saying  TheOldScientist's are feeding the coils with a sine wave how you have so sure about that ? Could be a square wave and is for sure . He talk about the resonance frequency coil , and to me is clear that if we feed a pancake bifilar coil  even with a square wave when is in resonance frequency , the output will be a sine wave even ljagged scope traces like you say .
like you told   "Sorry, but I personally have very low confidence in TheOldScientist" i feel exactly the same in relation to you .
What is depreciate is you say He is free energy clickbait when he share some of the best videos explanation that you could find in youtube .
Maybe because comments like yours he close the channel only to a particular subscribers this is clickbait ? I think not .
There you have a jagged scope feed by a square wave .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1wMalWqa7o
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: skycollection 1 on March 25, 2017, 01:33:53 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiLgM3EkQBE
With this bifilar pancake coil i can charge the 12 v battery without magnet rotor, can you describe this experiment...?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 25, 2017, 04:38:04 AM
MH Solenoids coils and pancake coils have different behavior because their self induction are different , so you simple can not compare in the same perspective when measure a solenoid normal coil or bifilar pancake coil .
About you saying  TheOldScientist's are feeding the coils with a sine wave how you have so sure about that ? Could be a square wave and is for sure . He talk about the resonance frequency coil , and to me is clear that if we feed a pancake bifilar coil  even with a square wave when is in resonance frequency , the output will be a sine wave even ljagged scope traces like you say .
like you told   "Sorry, but I personally have very low confidence in TheOldScientist" i feel exactly the same in relation to you .
What is depreciate is you say He is free energy clickbait when he share some of the best videos explanation that you could find in youtube .
Maybe because comments like yours he close the channel only to a particular subscribers this is clickbait ? I think not .
There you have a jagged scope feed by a square wave .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1wMalWqa7o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1wMalWqa7o)

On a fundamental level, solenoid coils and pancake coils are not different.  Their behaviour is fundamentally the same.  There will be observable differences between different solenoid coils and different pancake coils in terms of resonant frequencies and the shape of the magnetic fields around the coils and other parameters, but these are best defined as characteristics and not as real differences.  It's important for experimenters to realize this.  You are suggesting that they can't be compared and their behaviour is different.  What specifically are you talking about?

For TheOldScientist, when you look for a self-resonant frequency for a coil, you must use sine waves and if your scope trace is not displaying a sine wave something is wrong.  If you don't know why you have to use a sine wave you can discuss this with your friends on the forum.  He made a mistake with respect to his resistance reading.  What have you become if you can't even state that someone made a mistake making a resistance measurement?  If you understand how wire resistance works, how could you come to any other possible conclusion?

What you want to do is get past being upset about what I said about the TheOldScientist clip and instead understand why I said what I said and appreciate it and understand it.  My comments were true, valid comments.  If he did the clip differently and did a great job then I would have said that he did a great job.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 25, 2017, 07:16:37 AM
synchro1,

If you have a bifilar coil and you measured 1.45mH for any one of the windings out of the two and then you measure 5.81mH for the two windings in series connection as you wrote then there is nothing wrong: you are correct with this.

The problem is not this but as follows:
if you make a single wire coil with the same amount of wire you used for the two bifilar windings  i.e. the DC resistance of this single wire coil would be also 5 Ohm (same wire length and same wire OD like the two windings together have in the bifilar) and the mechanical sizes such as the diameter and the length of this coil would be nicely comparable to that of your bifilar coil,
then what L inductance do you think you would measure for this single wire coil?

Because this is the real question here to answer, right?

The answer is you would measure pretty close to the 5.81mH L value. 

I built two such coils, one with a single wire from say 10m long piece of wire, label it as coil A and then I made a bifilar coil from 2 x 5m long wires guided in parallel and connected the two wires in series as you wrote, label this as coil B. I measured very nearly identical L inductances for coil A and coil B. Back then this comparison was done not only by me but Magluvin and TinselKoala: we demonstrated this and you continuously criticised all 3 of us, often with rude words. Three persons separately cannot have crappy L meters.  :o

Remember what you wrote in your post #33 above:

"Tesla bifilar coils have twice the inductance of single wire coils of the same gauge and copper weight" 

why I quoted this (though the first part of it is not correct) is that it shows you are aware of the condition: the single wire coil should have the same copper weight as the two windings have in the bifilar coil, hence this should mean the length of the wire used for the single wire coil and the added length of the two windings in the bifilar coil should be equal and of the same wire gauge. 

Please demonstrate the measured L inductance of your single wire coil wound with the conditions above.
It is fine you tested your bifilar coil inductance for the individual windings and for their series connection. This latter nicely justifies that if you double the number of turns you get 4 times the inductance, right?


Gyula

Gyula,

Please take a very close look at Gotoluc's "Self running coil #15":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8BehANEVUo
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 25, 2017, 08:53:44 AM
Gyula,

I just wound a single wire coil of the same gauge on an identical bobbin and measured the Ohms and Inductance. The test results show that you're right as regards the air core coils. I could only fit 4 Ohms worth of wire on the bobbin. The inductance was 4.3 mh. The serial bifilar at 5 Ohms delivered  5.81 mh. The ratio is pretty close at 1.162 mh per Ohm for the serial bifilar and 1.05 mh per Ohm for the single wire coil. There's clearly no where near the 100% difference Gotoluc measures with his ferrite toroid coils. nor the twice the magnetic strength my iron nail core serial bifilar demonstrated. The sloppy lash wrap of my single wire coil accounts for the slightly lower inductance to Ohms ratio. I concede that TK's measurements are correct and that his meter is functional.

It appears the ferrite core plays a critical role in the doubling of inductance with this Tesla bifilar connection. Maybe TK can run a ferrite core into his bore holes and make comparison measurements for us to help.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 25, 2017, 09:29:42 AM
On a fundamental level, solenoid coils and pancake coils are not different.  Their behaviour is fundamentally the same.  There will be observable differences between different solenoid coils and different pancake coils in terms of resonant frequencies and the shape of the magnetic fields around the coils and other parameters, but these are best defined as characteristics and not as real differences.  It's important for experimenters to realize this.  You are suggesting that they can't be compared and their behaviour is different.  What specifically are you talking about?

For TheOldScientist, when you look for a self-resonant frequency for a coil, you must use sine waves and if your scope trace is not displaying a sine wave something is wrong.  If you don't know why you have to use a sine wave you can discuss this with your friends on the forum.  He made a mistake with respect to his resistance reading.  What have you become if you can't even state that someone made a mistake making a resistance measurement?  If you understand how wire resistance works, how could you come to any other possible conclusion?

What you want to do is get past being upset about what I said about the TheOldScientist clip and instead understand why I said what I said and appreciate it and understand it.  My comments were true, valid comments.  If he did the clip differently and did a great job then I would have said that he did a great job.

No MH is not my intention become upset about what you said, i just give a opinion in the same coin like when you answer in that mode , but you have the right of don't like their videos or from others for sure  .

About i say that solenoid coils and pancake coils are different i maintain what i said .

A bifilar pancake coil is capable of holding more charge than a single wound coil and that is known .
When this coils are operated at resonance, the distributed capacitance on the bifilar  overcome the counter electromotive force that normal is find in conventional coils .
Seems i really don't know what is resistance need to learn again , but seems to,  that you talk about this particular subject of bifilar pancake coils without any practical experience, but just by heart or based in what you hear.

The topic is "The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency "    and i tell you that is possible match their resonance coil with a square wave where the output will become a sinus wave , and myself are exactly discuss on that perspective .

 Did Tesla use a sine wave to feed that type coils ?  i think not  :) you invented the flat pancake coil ?

It's important for experimenters to realize that they simple can not assume something only because persons like you are not able to view more deeply some of aspects of bifilar pancake coil that are denied .
But persons like you that use the sentence  " carved in stone" to justify something without testing ,for sure will take their stubbornness to their grave stone too.

I already say to you in other occasion but i will repeat myself :
fool is the one who thinks already knows everything closing the "window" to learn and improve their wisdom.

Have a nice day MH

 

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 25, 2017, 10:22:22 AM
I wrapped a high perm ferrite rod of 1000, with a bifilar coil, shocked the coil and measured a steady rise in Ohmic coil resistance over 24 hours. A "Mag Amp" effect. I concluded that the bifilar resonance was magnetizing the ferrite core free of charge. This was the theory I used to explain the "Impulse Magnetization" of the iorn nail. I spent a long time explaining this effect in my earlier threads.

I called the "Tesla Coil Builder" bifilar test a parlor trick, because as I revealed, the nails alone without the coils attached to the battery, differed in permanent magnet strength by a factor of 2.

I "Impulse Shocked" both nail core coils, then they sat over night. I noticed the difference the following day, and set about trying to explain the effect. I proposed the electron alignment theory that explains how the bifilar ferrite core resonance actually transmutes the core into a higher isotope. This effect has nothing what-so-ever to do with the kind of power supply to the coil TK is imagining.

This effect is the "Magic" of the bifilar, and Gotoluc's double inductance measurements and self running coil effect tie into it. "Evostars" demonstrates conclusively in his video tests, that the magnetic field of the series bifilar coil in resonance is "Outside the Coil"!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 25, 2017, 12:24:40 PM
Nelson:

The central issue is what is the reason for taking a bifilar pancake coil and exciting it at its self-resonant frequency?  Why do this?  What are you trying to accomplish?  What practical applications are there for this?  It's fun to "play" but what is the point behind the playing?  Those are the types of questions that are avoided and never posed and never answered by many experimenters.

Here is another set of questions:  Why a bifilar pancake coil?  Why not a regular pancake coil?  Does making it bifilar really do anything more than let the experimenter proclaim that there is a stronger electric field between the wires?  So what?  What about a solenoid bifilar coil, or even just an ordinary solenoid coil?  Both of the solenoid coils can be excited at their self-resonant frequencies also.   So there are four types of coils that I just mentioned.  What do you want to accomplish with the coil and what can you say about each of the four types of coils relative to what you want to accomplish?  We are talking about doing something practical with the coil.  I get the sense that these are difficult questions for many experimenters to answer.

A bifilar pancake coil, a similar pancake coil, and a bifilar solenoid coils and a regular solenoid coil with approximately the same amount of inductance as the pancake coils will all have different self-resonant frequencies and we know that for the two bifilar cases the self-resonant frequencies will be lower.  So what, what can you do with this information beyond making a frequency measurement and an observation?

Suppose you want your coil to act as a generic inductor in an electronics circuit.  Which of the four types of coil would be the best choice for this?   The answer is the regular solenoid coil.  The regular solenoid coil will meet the design goal with less wire and less resistance and less unwanted self-capacitance and have a higher working frequency bandwidth.

Suppose you want to make an air-core transformer.  Which of the four types of coil would be the best choice for this?  One more time, the answer is the regular solenoid coil.  The regular solenoid coil will meet the design goal with a more efficient coupling for power transfer, less wire used and less resistance and less unwanted self-capacitance and have a higher working frequency bandwidth.

When you look at a datasheet for a small coil that you might put onto a PCB they give you the maximum operating frequency for the coil and the self-resonant frequency for the coil.  Electronics designers avoid feeding the coil signals that go higher in frequency than the maximum operating frequency because above the maximum operating frequency you are approaching the self-resonant frequency for the coil and at those high frequencies the coil fails to function as a coil anymore.  As a general rule of thumb, electronics designers avoid the self-resonant frequencies of coils in their circuits.

Quote
A bifilar pancake coil is capable of holding more charge than a single wound coil and that is known .
When this coils are operated at resonance, the distributed capacitance on the bifilar  overcome the counter electromotive force that normal is find in conventional coils.

Not really, because the typical model for self-resonance of a coil is a parallel LC circuit.  A parallel LC circuit when connected in series with a load acts as an infinite impedance at the self-resonant frequency.  That means that the coil is acting like a 100% counter electromotive force device that opposes the excitation frequency with an equal and opposite voltage.

I will just repeat to you again:  I am telling you with 100% certainty that it is a major mistake to use a square wave when trying to find the self-resonant frequency of a coil.  What you should be doing is trying to understand for yourself why I am saying that.  Rejecting what I am telling you is the wrong course of action.

Quote
It's important for experimenters to realize that they simple can not assume something only because persons like you are not able to view more deeply some of aspects of bifilar pancake coil that are denied .
But persons like you that use the sentence  "carved in stone" to justify something without testing ,for sure will take their stubbornness to their grave stone too.

I probably just raised more questions about bifilar pancake coils and three other variations that you may never have even considered.  This is to get you and your peers to start critically thinking and examining all of the issues.  Chances are that I am viewing this issue more deeply than you have ever done before, and I am not even a hard-core electronics guy.  Sometimes things really are carved in stone.

I am challenging you and your peers to improve your wisdom.  If I was in your shoes I would test four coils, a pancake bifilar, a regular pancake coil, a bifilar solenoid coil, and a regular solenoid coil.  I would define some objectives, develop some test procedures, and arrive at some conclusions.  The general conclusion will be that the regular solenoid coil performs the best and offers the most inductance per unit of wire length and therefore has the least amount of resistive losses.  It also has the least unwanted self-capacitance that reduces the working bandwidth of the coil.  If you think a series bifilar coil is something special then you have to make tests and demonstrate what makes it special and why.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: gyulasun on March 25, 2017, 02:07:16 PM
Gyula,

I just wound a single wire coil of the same gauge on an identical bobbin and measured the Ohms and Inductance. The test results show that you're right as regards the air core coils. I could only fit 4 Ohms worth of wire on the bobbin. The inductance was 4.3 mh. The serial bifilar at 5 Ohms delivered  5.81 mh. The ratio is pretty close at 1.162 mh per Ohm for the serial bifilar and 1.05 mh per Ohm for the single wire coil. There's clearly no where near the 100% difference Gotoluc measures with his ferrite toroid coils. nor the twice the magnetic strength my iron nail core serial bifilar demonstrated. The sloppy lash wrap of my single wire coil accounts for the slightly lower inductance to Ohms ratio. I concede that TK's measurements are correct and that his meter is functional.

It appears the ferrite core plays a critical role in the doubling of inductance with this Tesla bifilar connection. Maybe TK can run a ferrite core into his bore holes and make comparison measurements for us to help.

synchro1,

Very good you built the coil with single wire and obviously the fact that you did not have the same length of wire and had 4 Ohm DC resistance (instead of 5 Ohms) explains the 4.3mH inductance instead of the 5.81mH, no problem. 

You refer to Gotoluc's video, back then he used those toroidal coils in his circuit shown here:
http://overunity.com/8892/self-running-coil/msg233254/#msg233254 (http://overunity.com/8892/self-running-coil/msg233254/#msg233254) 

so his toroidal core is not wound bifilarly but with one winding (in 5 layers) is wound on one half of the core and the other winding (also in 5 layers) is wound on the other half of the core, ok?
Such winding style is used for instance in so called common mode choke coils, see here one with single layer windings placed on the right and on the left hand side of the core:
http://wcmagnetics.com/product/50-amp-toroidal-common-mode-choke-507-series/ (http://wcmagnetics.com/product/50-amp-toroidal-common-mode-choke-507-series/)

This type of winding can have double the inductance when the two windings are correctly connected in series (i.e. not to work as common mode choke) versus the same amount of wire (the two half windings have together) wound onto the same toroidal core in the normal way. However, we are now discussing Tesla style bifilar coils, not the winding style Luc used.

IT is not the ferrite core which playes the critical role but the winding style and position of the windings with respect to each other on the core (mutual inductance) that counts in the resulting L inductance of the series windings.

Gyula 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Dog-One on March 25, 2017, 02:22:04 PM
Quote from: MileHigh or MileDeep
The regular solenoid coil will meet the design goal with a more efficient coupling for power transfer, less wire used and less resistance and less unwanted self-capacitance and have a higher working frequency bandwidth.

What if I'm not at all interested in power transfer?  What if I'm after something completely different?

Can you answer me what it is I could possibly be looking for?

If you have no clue, maybe it's time to cease and desist.


I'm quite certain Nelson knows what I'm referring to.   ;)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 25, 2017, 02:27:19 PM
Quote from Milehigh:

"The central issue is what is the reason for taking a bifilar pancake coil and exciting it at its self-resonant frequency"?

Tesla used the bifilar pancake to transmit and recieve wireless power which is less efficient to do with the bifilar solenoid or the single wire pancake.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 25, 2017, 02:35:34 PM
synchro1,

Very good you built the coil with single wire and obviously the fact that you did not have the same length of wire and had 4 Ohm DC resistance (instead of 5 Ohms) explains the 4.3mH inductance instead of the 5.81mH, no problem. 

You refer to Gotoluc's video, back then he used those toroidal coils in his circuit shown here:
http://overunity.com/8892/self-running-coil/msg233254/#msg233254 (http://overunity.com/8892/self-running-coil/msg233254/#msg233254) 

so his toroidal core is not wound bifilarly but with one winding (in 5 layers) is wound on one half of the core and the other winding (also in 5 layers) is wound on the other half of the core, ok?
Such winding style is used for instance in so called common mode choke coils, see here one with single layer windings placed on the right and on the left hand side of the core:
http://wcmagnetics.com/product/50-amp-toroidal-common-mode-choke-507-series/ (http://wcmagnetics.com/product/50-amp-toroidal-common-mode-choke-507-series/)

This type of winding can have double the inductance when the two windings are correctly connected in series (i.e. not to work as common mode choke) versus the same amount of wire (the two half windings have together) wound onto the same toroidal core in the normal way. However, we are now discussing Tesla style bifilar coils, not the winding style Luc used.

IT is not the ferrite core which playes the critical role but the winding style and position of the windings with respect to each other on the core (mutual inductance) that counts in the resulting L inductance of the series windings.

Gyula

How would you explain the doubling of magnetic strength in my "Tesla Coil Builder" bifilar vs. single wire electro-magnet test with the trombone paper clips?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 25, 2017, 02:59:56 PM
Hi MH , you talk a lot make me write a lot too :) and English is my third language so not easy answering to last big "testament".


“The central issue is what is the reason for taking a bifilar pancake coil and exciting it at its self-resonant frequency?Why do this? What are you trying to accomplish? What practical applications are there for this? It's fun to "play" but what is the point behind the playing? Those are the types of questions that are avoided and never posed and never answered by many experimenters. “

What i try accomplish have nothing to do with topic , i’m not talk about my own work,  but about  the topic that Evostars open .

“Here is another set of questions: Why a bifilar pancake coil? Why not a regular pancake coil? Does making it bifilar really do anything more than let the experimenter proclaim that there is a stronger electric field between the wires?”

Myself already answer about that point but i answer again :
Self induction of coil will be zero.  In a pancake bifilar coil  the magnetic field of one of winding is  equal and opposite to that created by the other wind canceling their self inductance.


“Suppose you want to make an air-core transformer. Which of the four types of coil would be the best choice for this? One more time, the answer is the regular solenoid coil. The regular solenoid coil will meet the design goal with a more efficient coupling for power transfer, less wire used and less resistance and less unwanted self-capacitance and have a higher working frequency bandwidth.”

Sorry but i don’t agree about that point that regular solenoid have a more efficient coupling in power transfer , and even with less wire , resistance and self-capacitance . You should test before talk otherwise you are just talking something that someone write and you assume that true is unbreakable .

“I will just repeat to you again: I am telling you with 100% certainty that it is a major mistake to use a square wave when trying to find the self-resonant frequency of a coil. What you should be doing is trying to understand for yourself why I am saying that. Rejecting what I am telling you is the wrong course of action.”

Sure i understand , that point and i did not say that is the best option or not , just tell that is possible with a square wave find the self -resonant frequency of the coil in same way.
About i go in wrong course of action …  Will it? :)

“I probably just raised more questions about bifilar pancake coils and three other variations that you may never have even considered.This is to get you and your peers to start critically thinking and examining all of the issues. Chances are that I am viewing this issue more deeply than you have ever done before, and I am not even a hard-core electronics guy. Sometimes things really are carved in stone.”

Now you are start acting a bit more weird  … what peers are you referring ?  About you say that are viewing more deeply than me , for sure not , go to bench and test it is easy and after you can show us .
OHHH i forget ! You don’t need you already answer that in last email your “peers” already did that no chance of that “peers” fail.

“I am challenging you and your peers to improve your wisdom”
I’m improve everyday , even with less correct information provide by other , and i do not feel like I knew everything, my learning window is still open .


“The general conclusion will be that the regular solenoid coil performs the best and offers the most inductance per unit of wire length and therefore has the least amount of resistive losses. It also has the least unwanted self-capacitance that reduces the working bandwidth of the coil”

Is your conclusion and i accepted that , but not agree .

“If you think a series bifilar coil is something special then you have to make tests and demonstrate what makes it special and why.”

I don't think that coil is special , i guarantee that is real special because i already test it, otherwise why should i use in my  work ? . Should i demonstrate to whom ?
To you ?
Just put you hands at work and see by yourself , otherwise you are just throw away words like a parrot nothing more . What is the difficulty to you in test it ?  Is you that are try convince me and my “peers” about your point of view , go forward show something to us ! To me since i’m a member of this forum it will a pleasure see you make something more “palpable” then simple talk .

Have a nice day MH


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 25, 2017, 03:47:40 PM
Impulse magnetization, "Lazy Eight OU":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeJ5wHBpaf4&t=49s
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 25, 2017, 05:03:12 PM
I got shicked 18 months ago when I commented on Skycollection's Conradelectro P/I P/O test. Jorge determined that his six Hexafilar LED's, not connected by anything more than wireless induction between his Tesla serial bifilar pancake coils, sustained amperage but suffered a voltage drop instead while the LED's maintained their luminosity. The reverse of conventional grid usage where they feed amperage into the system, and voltage remains constant. Suppose we have to feed lights in parallel down a 10 miles long wire. Ohms law of inverse resistance to voltage points to the advantage of stepping voltage up to feed the farthest lights, rather then generating amperage.     
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 25, 2017, 05:17:13 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiLgM3EkQBE
With this bifilar pancake coil i can charge the 12 v battery without magnet rotor, can you describe this experiment...?
Nice experiment, and a nice stack of pancake coils!

I've been wondering about charging a battery with the dielectric resonant voltage. Thanks for showing that it works.

Have you noticed a difference, in how the coil is connected? I noticed, north is stronger. Why do you not use 2 diodes, to create a plus and minus from the resonant sine wave?

really cool to hear it buzzing with the magnet on top. I hear my coils buzzing sometimes, when I load them unbalanced.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 25, 2017, 05:42:21 PM
Nice experiment, and a nice stack of pancake coils!

I've been wondering about charging a battery with the dielectric resonant voltage. Thanks for showing that it works.

Have you noticed a difference, in how the coil is connected? I noticed, north is stronger. Why do you not use 2 diodes, to create a plus and minus from the resonant sine wave?

really cool to hear it buzzing with the magnet on top. I hear my coils buzzing sometimes, when I load them unbalanced.

Quote from Miles High:

"The central issue is what is the reason for taking a bifilar pancake coil and exciting it at its self-resonant frequency?  Why do this?  What are you trying to accomplish? What practical applications are there for this"?

Skycollection is sending power with a longitudinal magnet wave wirelessly between his bifilar pancake coils at self resonating frequency. This conduit for power acts like a super conductor.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 25, 2017, 06:15:34 PM
What if I'm not at all interested in power transfer?  What if I'm after something completely different?

Can you answer me what it is I could possibly be looking for?

If you have no clue, maybe it's time to cease and desist.

I'm quite certain Nelson knows what I'm referring to.   ;)

I can't read your mind, period.  Power transfer was an example of a practical application for a coil.  So you tell me what you are looking for.  I would really like to know what you are referring to.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 25, 2017, 06:56:38 PM
Tesla tried to sell his Wardenclyffe wireless power system with the advantage of instantly tailoring output to match the load. Currently, power companies pump water up hill at low usage times and release it through hydroelectric generators at peak demand hours.

Skycollection's wireless conduit works the same way as Tesla's system; Tesla could increase power with a transformer rheostat on demand. There is no current consumption. The voltage at the outlet is unchanged. When demand increases, higher voltage is sent instantly through the longitudinal magnet wave conduit, and spread evenly throughout the grid.

The advantage Skycollection's magnet wave conduit has over Tesla's original system, is that no one can steal the power like they may have from Tesla's World Wide Power broadcast system. Everyone's heard how J.P. Morgan had the Wardenclyffe tower dynamited when he realized there was no way to meter the usage. 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 25, 2017, 07:16:24 PM
Hi Nelson well it looks like we are on a learning curve here for through's [true?] coil winders who didn't know and the mothers who didn't teach manners and respect off other inner souls into there kids.
+1

opening our minds, requires opening our hearts
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: gyulasun on March 25, 2017, 07:27:52 PM
How would you explain the doubling of magnetic strength in my "Tesla Coil Builder" bifilar vs. single wire electro-magnet test with the trombone paper clips?

Synchro1,

I am not qualified to explain your unique way of making electromagnets, magnetizing first the core that you intend to use in an electromagnet by blasting huge current via the nails etc etc.   I refer to your Reply #59 and #66 too.

All I can say is good luck to you.

Gyula
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 25, 2017, 08:16:08 PM
+1

opening our minds, requires opening our hearts

wise words! ;)

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 25, 2017, 08:48:28 PM
Nelson:

Quote
Myself already answer about that point but i answer again :
Self induction of coil will be zero.  In a pancake bifilar coil  the magnetic field of one of winding is  equal and opposite to that created by the other wind canceling their self inductance.

No, in fact the self-induction of the coil will not be zero in a bifilar pancake coil.   The magnetic fields of each of the windings add together.  The currents in each of the two windings travel in the same direction.  At lower frequencies a bifilar pancake coil and a regular pancake coil will look exactly the same.

Quote
Sorry but i don’t agree about that point that regular solenoid have a more efficient coupling in power transfer , and even with less wire , resistance and self-capacitance . You should test before talk otherwise you are just talking something that someone write and you assume that true is unbreakable.

In a certain sense I suppose that we are both in the same position then, aren't we?  You are talking before testing also, aren't you?  So why do you disagree with me?

A pancake coil exhibits a substantial amount of magnetic field self cancellation where part of the magnetic field generated by one loop of wire is cancelled out by part of the magnetic field of the adjacent loops of wire.  A long solenoid coil will also do this but a solenoid coil that is shorter in length compared to the diameter will exhibit much less magnetic field self-cancellation resulting in a higher inductance per unit length of wire.  The center of a short solenoid coil is almost a pure area of flux addition with no cancellation.  Therefore if you place two short solenoid coils face-to-face you have a very good coupling of flux from one coil to the other coil with very little flux self-cancellation.  It's a no-brainer that two short solenoid coils will couple better together as an air-core transformer than two pancake coils.

Quote
Sure i understand , that point and i did not say that is the best option or not , just tell that is possible with a square wave find the self -resonant frequency of the coil in same way.

Yes it is possible to find the resonant frequency of a coil with a square wave excitation but it is also very possible to make a mistake using this method.  What I am not hearing from you is why there is a problem with a square wave and why the proper way to do it is with a sine wave.  Do you know the reasons?  I see no discussion about this critical issue.

Quote
Now you are start acting a bit more weird  … what peers are you referring ?  About you say that are viewing more deeply than me , for sure not , go to bench and test it is easy and after you can show us .
OHHH i forget ! You don’t need you already answer that in last email your “peers” already did that no chance of that “peers” fail.

What is so strange about saying that your peers are the people in this thread and on this forum?  If you are viewing more deeply than me explain yourself please.  Test what on the bench?

Quote
I don't think that coil is special , i guarantee that is real special because i already test it, otherwise why should i use in my  work ? . Should i demonstrate to whom?

Why don't you share your information right here with your peers?  What is real special about a pancake coil?

Quote
otherwise you are just throw away words like a parrot

Nope, I am not throwing away words like a parrot.  I am raising serious issues for consideration and asking for substantive information.  It's too easy to convince yourself that you are in some "magical bifilar pancake coil club."  I am looking for real substance.  This is a way to induce you to think critically about what you are doing and ask yourselves about the merits of your testing and about the merits of different coil configurations.  Just because Tesla issued a patent for a bifilar pancake coil does not make it "magic."  Do you see what I am saying?

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 25, 2017, 08:57:50 PM
+1
opening our minds, requires opening our hearts

Speaking of opening your mind, do you actually know how a coil works?  It's fun to play with them but I can tell you that more than 95% of experimenters on places like this don't know how coils actually work.  It's a strange phenomenon and I can tell you that you would be much better off to understand how a coil works first in order to get more out of your experiments.  If you are beginner it is not an easy subject to tackle.  In many ways the way coils work are counter-intuitive and it can be a difficult subject to understand.  That's why Bedini never explained how coils work to his followers at the various conferences he was part of.  He was better off leaving the whole subject shrouded in mystery.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 25, 2017, 09:13:00 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiLgM3EkQBE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiLgM3EkQBE)
With this bifilar pancake coil i can charge the 12 v battery without magnet rotor, can you describe this experiment...?

Jorge, I looked at your clip.  It's just a variation on when you have a Bedini motor where the rotor does not turn and the Bedini circuit goes into spontaneous self-oscillation.  You have an oscillating circuit that is energizing the pancake coils and then the pancake coils discharge into the battery when the transistors switch off.  Exactly the same circuit could be built and demonstrated with an ordinary coil.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 25, 2017, 09:27:27 PM
Nice experiment, and a nice stack of pancake coils!

I've been wondering about charging a battery with the dielectric resonant voltage. Thanks for showing that it works.

Have you noticed a difference, in how the coil is connected? I noticed, north is stronger. Why do you not use 2 diodes, to create a plus and minus from the resonant sine wave?

really cool to hear it buzzing with the magnet on top. I hear my coils buzzing sometimes, when I load them unbalanced.

A little reality check for you Evostars.  The battery is not being charged with a "dielectric resonant voltage."  I don't even know what that means.  The battery is being charged with current pulses from the coil.  It's very plain and ordinary.  In Jorge's circuit it would not make sense to have two diodes at all, the current to charge the battery flows in one direction only and you only need one diode.  There is no "resonant sine wave."  Nothing in that circuit is resonating in the true sense of the word, rather, the circuit is oscillating.  There is a difference between "resonating" and "oscillating."  For example, when a 555 timer circuit outputs a square wave signal, nothing in the 555 timer circuit is resonating.  Rather, the 555 timer circuit is oscillating as a "bistable multivibrator."  That is somewhat analogous to what is happening in Jorge's circuit.

What is the coil actually doing in this circuit?  It's being energized when the transistors switch on.  When the transistors switch off, the coll discharges into the battery.  There is no sine wave or resonance in sight.

This is just me giving you an example of why you should learn how a coil actually works to get more out of your experiments.  It's all up to you.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 25, 2017, 11:24:22 PM
Nelson:

No, in fact the self-induction of the coil will not be zero in a bifilar pancake coil.   The magnetic fields of each of the windings add together.  The currents in each of the two windings travel in the same direction.  At lower frequencies a bifilar pancake coil and a regular pancake coil will look exactly the same.

In a certain sense I suppose that we are both in the same position then, aren't we?  You are talking before testing also, aren't you?  So why do you disagree with me?

A pancake coil exhibits a substantial amount of magnetic field self cancellation where part of the magnetic field generated by one loop of wire is cancelled out by part of the magnetic field of the adjacent loops of wire.  A long solenoid coil will also do this but a solenoid coil that is shorter in length compared to the diameter will exhibit much less magnetic field self-cancellation resulting in a higher inductance per unit length of wire.  The center of a short solenoid coil is almost a pure area of flux addition with no cancellation.  Therefore if you place two short solenoid coils face-to-face you have a very good coupling of flux from one coil to the other coil with very little flux self-cancellation.  It's a no-brainer that two short solenoid coils will couple better together as an air-core transformer than two pancake coils.

Yes it is possible to find the resonant frequency of a coil with a square wave excitation but it is also very possible to make a mistake using this method.  What I am not hearing from you is why there is a problem with a square wave and why the proper way to do it is with a sine wave.  Do you know the reasons?  I see no discussion about this critical issue.

What is so strange about saying that your peers are the people in this thread and on this forum?  If you are viewing more deeply than me explain yourself please.  Test what on the bench?

Why don't you share your information right here with your peers?  What is real special about a pancake coil?

Nope, I am not throwing away words like a parrot.  I am raising serious issues for consideration and asking for substantive information.  It's too easy to convince yourself that you are in some "magical bifilar pancake coil club."  I am looking for real substance.  This is a way to induce you to think critically about what you are doing and ask yourselves about the merits of your testing and about the merits of different coil configurations.  Just because Tesla issued a patent for a bifilar pancake coil does not make it "magic."  Do you see what I am saying?

MileHigh

Sorry, MH but nothing that i could say will change your position , and i can only accept your opinion, but you will not listen to what you want listen.
About you say that we are both in the same position , that statement  are Miles away from the true because you are just a more theoretical person , and you knowledge is based not in practical work itself  but only in lecture . Are you a researcher ? Can you point to me or to others where i could find some of your experiments in last years ? I will appreciate that you could provide to us some of that work , sincerely.

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 25, 2017, 11:44:48 PM
Sorry, MH but nothing that i could say will change your position , and i can only accept your opinion, but you will not listen to what you want listen.
About you say that we are both in the same position , that statement  are Miles away from the true because you are just a more theoretical person , and you knowledge is based not in practical work itself  but only in lecture . Are you a researcher ? Can you point to me or to others where i could find some of your experiments in last years ? I will appreciate that you could provide to us some of that work , sincerely.

Nelson Rocha

Nelson, I asked you specific questions about your claims about pancake coils and your bench work and you are avoiding answering them.  Why are you avoiding answering?

How do you know my knowledge is not based on any practical work?  Aren't you sensing that I have some technical knowledge?

Forget about the "show me your experiments or I won't talk with you" game.  We are having a conversation right now and you have not responded to the issues I raised and the questions I posed to you in my last posting to you.  Please respond to my last posting.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 25, 2017, 11:55:21 PM
Im not here posting for a discussion. I dont care for that. So I dont read all your posts. Im here to give my vision, my thuth. And I might be wrong. I know because I have been wrong a lot. Thats what i call learning. To think for myself. to question, and listen to my heart.

I made some pictures about the fields of the bifilar coil.
Shown in red and blue are 10 windings. You see only half of a bifilar pancake coil. The other half is mirrored on the right (use youre imagination).
I provide 100 volts, the red is one winding into the center, the blue is the second winding into the center, connected by the grey wire.

The voltage difference is 50 and 40. this 10V difference, is because i only use 10 windings in this example. If if would have 1000 windings, the difference would be 0,1 volt. (0,1%), so 49,9V and 50V.

A single wire, with current, radiates the dielectric field outwards, and the magnetic field circles around it. I also included a picture from Steinmetz, that shows the magnetic and dielectric field lines of two conducting wires. (figure yourself out if the current flows in the same direction or not).

The magnetic field flows over the windings of the pancake coil. above, and below are different directions, inward to the center hole, and outward to the outer rim. (the other side is mirrored).

If we would look from above, we would see a whirlpool/vortex of the magnetic field. One side is centrifugal, the other side is centripetal.
meaning, flowing towards the center from the outer rim, or flowing from the center outwards.

The direction of the vortex is determined by the current flow (right hand rule).

With AC, we have alternating current, meaning the direction of the vortex reverses. At the same time the voltage differnce between the windings remains the same. The dielectric field seeks the smallest place, which is the center of the coil. there it creates pressure. This pressure pushes out the field lines, creating the magnetic field. it can only go up or down. the direction is determined by the direction of the current flow, making the magnetic vortex.

therefor one side is strong in pushing, generating pressure (north) while the other is pulling, sucking in the field lines. (south)

Al fields are ether fields. the magnetic field is a ether field, the dielectric field is a ether field. It is the configuration of the field lines, that determines its actions.  when a ether whirlpool/vortex is created, we have a magnetic field(turning left or right is north or south). If the field has radial coherent lines, we have a dielectric field. (gravity is another topic, but guess what...)

With AC the dielectric field, is building up between the wires, in the smallest place. The magnetic field vortexes have to travel all the way around the coil. A much bigger distance than the space between the windings. This takes time. It takes time for the magnetic field to build up, and then when the current alters (AC) the magnetic field vortex flow, is reversed! This reversing field has inertia. At the same time the dielectric field between the spiral windings, has no difficulty in sitting there. It is not related to the alternating current. It is related to the voltage.

At a certain frequency, the magnetic field with its inertia, cant collapse anymore. It becomes static. The pulses it receives from the coil, are perfectly aligned with the building up and collapsing of the magnetic field. the field. The field gets a pulse, just when it was about to collapse. so it stays there. it becomes a stable vortex. A vortex of ether flow. sucking in, and pushing out.

the dielectric field rises in voltage. it starts radiating outwards, it becomes free of the magnetic vortex restricktions. the dielectric field expands outside of the windings, outside of the coil. this is why a neon tub lights up, its because of the dielectric field at its resonant frequency.

So far, my understaning, you dont have to agree, I dont say its true, its just my perspective. Alot of it is based on Eric p. Dollard, telsa, steinmets, Ken Wheeler, jj thompson etc...
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 26, 2017, 12:19:16 AM
Nelson, I asked you specific questions about your claims about pancake coils and your bench work and you are avoiding answering them.  Why are you avoiding answering?

How do you know my knowledge is not based on any practical work?  Aren't you sensing that I have some technical knowledge?

Forget about the "show me your experiments or I won't talk with you" game.  We are having a conversation right now and you have not responded to the issues I raised and the questions I posed to you in my last posting to you.  Please respond to my last posting.

MileHigh

MH ,
Did i told or write "show me your experiments or I won't talk with you" ?    I think not .  I already response to you but you try all time refute my answers  .
What i should do about that ? Only respect you opinion nothing more . I can not argue with someone that have their own solid opinion already formed, and i'm not try convince you of nothing or should i try make that like you  ?

 I only ask if you are a researcher , and if you are , point us  to you show some of you work just that . To me and is not need have a special "sense" to understand that you have knowledge and most of that is based in your crystallized intelligence  that you collect in your professional career like i already explain to you some posts behind. I could sense to that for sure you have already a advanced age , making you shielding yourself to protect your ego , maybe because in some part of your life you already work in something relevant or important in your professional career .

Is enough MH  , let topic run normally , our conversation already start upset the owner of topic evostars and he have right about that , because we already exposed some of our opinions even different opinions .

Nelson Rocha

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 26, 2017, 12:21:09 AM
Im not here posting for a discussion. I dont care for that. So I dont read all your posts. Im here to give my vision, my thuth. And I might be wrong. I know because I have been wrong a lot. Thats what i call learning. To think for myself. to question, and listen to my heart.

I made some pictures about the fields of the bifilar coil.
Shown in red and blue are 10 windings. You see only half of a bifilar pancake coil. The other half is mirrored on the right (use youre imagination).
I provide 100 volts, the red is one winding into the center, the blue is the second winding into the center, connected by the grey wire.

The voltage difference is 50 and 40. this 10V difference, is because i only use 10 windings in this example. If if would have 1000 windings, the difference would be 0,1 volt. (0,1%), so 49,9V and 50V.

A single wire, with current, radiates the dielectric field outwards, and the magnetic field circles around it. I also included a picture from Steinmetz, that shows the magnetic and dielectric field lines of two conducting wires. (figure yourself out if the current flows in the same direction or not).

The magnetic field flows over the windings of the pancake coil. above, and below are different directions, inward to the center hole, and outward to the outer rim. (the other side is mirrored).

If we would look from above, we would see a whirlpool/vortex of the magnetic field. One side is centrifugal, the other side is centripetal.
meaning, flowing towards the center from the outer rim, or flowing from the center outwards.

The direction of the vortex is determined by the current flow (right hand rule).

With AC, we have alternating current, meaning the direction of the vortex reverses. At the same time the voltage differnce between the windings remains the same. The dielectric field seeks the smallest place, which is the center of the coil. there it creates pressure. This pressure pushes out the field lines, creating the magnetic field. it can only go up or down. the direction is determined by the direction of the current flow, making the magnetic vortex.

therefor one side is strong in pushing, generating pressure (north) while the other is pulling, sucking in the field lines. (south)

Al fields are ether fields. the magnetic field is a ether field, the dielectric field is a ether field. It is the configuration of the field lines, that determines its actions.  when a ether whirlpool/vortex is created, we have a magnetic field(turning left or right is north or south). If the field has radial coherent lines, we have a dielectric field. (gravity is another topic, but guess what...)

With AC the dielectric field, is building up between the wires, in the smallest place. The magnetic field vortexes have to travel all the way around the coil. A much bigger distance than the space between the windings. This takes time. It takes time for the magnetic field to build up, and then when the current alters (AC) the magnetic field vortex flow, is reversed! This reversing field has inertia. At the same time the dielectric field between the spiral windings, has no difficulty in sitting there. It is not related to the alternating current. It is related to the voltage.

At a certain frequency, the magnetic field with its inertia, cant collapse anymore. It becomes static. The pulses it receives from the coil, are perfectly aligned with the building up and collapsing of the magnetic field. the field. The field gets a pulse, just when it was about to collapse. so it stays there. it becomes a stable vortex. A vortex of ether flow. sucking in, and pushing out.

the dielectric field rises in voltage. it starts radiating outwards, it becomes free of the magnetic vortex restricktions. the dielectric field expands outside of the windings, outside of the coil. this is why a neon tub lights up, its because of the dielectric field at its resonant frequency.

So far, my understaning, you dont have to agree, I dont say its true, its just my perspective. Alot of it is based on Eric p. Dollard, telsa, steinmets, Ken Wheeler, jj thompson etc...


Very nice explanation ***** stars :)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 26, 2017, 12:47:43 AM
Evostars:

Don't be passive-aggressive rude with this "I am not reading you" comment.

I attached a graphic that I got with a search.  Your shape of the magnetic field around a pancake coil is fundamentally correct.  However, it is not a vortex, there is no movement, there is no Bloch wall.  If you have DC going through a pancake coil, you can envision the magnetic field like a compressed static doughnut shape and of course in theory it extends out to infinity.  It simply represents the storage of the supplied electrical energy in the form of a magnetic field.

When it comes to magnetic fields there is actually no such thing as "North" and "South" because magnetic field lines form continuous loops.  "North" and "South" are nothing more than artificial nomenclature shortcuts that make it easier to discuss magnetic fields.  Yes, that means there is actually no such thing as a "North" magnetic field emanating from the north pole of a bar magnet.

One place where you are directing too much investigative energy, in my opinion, is with respect to the electric field lines between the turns of a pancake coil.  In terms of energy storage and what determines the electrical dynamics of a coil, the magnetic field and the energy stored in the magnetic field of a coil is the elephant, and the electric field and the energy stored in the electric field is the tiny insignificant ant.

What you should want to do it learn how a coil works in a circuit first and foremost, but ultimately that is your choice.  For example, if I said to you the instant you connect a coil to your battery source, what is the most interesting and relevant piece of information about that event?  I would not be surprised if you cannot answer that.

You need to look at art as an example.  Picasso and Warhol started off as regular commercial artists making ordinary paintings.  It's only after they mastered that part of the craft did they branch out and paint cubist figures with three eyes and replicate images of soup cans.  The point is understanding the basics gives you a foundation to learn more about the esoteric.

Quote
At a certain frequency, the magnetic field with its inertia, cant collapse anymore. It becomes static

Coils and their associated circuits have frequency transfer characteristics as you sweep the frequency up and down.  It is indeed a phenomenon related to inertia.  But there is no such thing as saying "the coil can't collapse anymore, it becomes static."  Understanding frequency characteristics and frequency transfer functions is one of the fundamental things about coils (and capacitors) that you should know if you want to understand what is happening on your bench.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 26, 2017, 12:57:12 AM
MH ,
Did i told or write "show me your experiments or I won't talk with you" ?    I think not .  I already response to you but you try all time refute my answers  .
What i should do about that ? Only respect you opinion nothing more . I can not argue with someone that have their own solid opinion already formed, and i'm not try convince you of nothing or should i try make that like you  ?

 I only ask if you are a researcher , and if you are , point us  to you show some of you work just that . To me and is not need have a special "sense" to understand that you have knowledge and most of that is based in your crystallized intelligence  that you collect in your professional career like i already explain to you some posts behind. I could sense to that for sure you have already a advanced age , making you shielding yourself to protect your ego , maybe because in some part of your life you already work in something relevant or important in your professional career .

Is enough MH  , let topic run normally , our conversation already start upset the owner of topic evostars and he have right about that , because we already exposed some of our opinions even different opinions .

Nelson Rocha

Sorry but I am going to translate that for you Nelson:  You stated that there is something special about a pancake coil and you have done research on your bench related to this.  I asked you for some details about what is so special about a pancake coil and what interesting research you have done on your bench and you have nothing to say.  I watched your clip where you lit a light bulb submerged in a glass of water which is not really an interesting experiment.

Suppose you have a 30 mH coil.  Can you name three ways to make it generate 172 volts?

I have the same message for you, the best way for you to appreciate what you are doing on your bench with your coil experiments and to do better experiments is to learn first about the fundamental basics about how coils work.  It's all up to you.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 26, 2017, 01:20:43 AM
Sorry but I am going to translate that for you Nelson:  You stated that there is something special about a pancake coil and you have done research on your bench related to this.  I asked you for some details about what is so special about a pancake coil and what interesting research you have done on your bench and you have nothing to say.  I watched your clip where you lit a light bulb submerged in a glass of water which is not really an interesting experiment.

Suppose you have a 30 mH coil.  Can you name three ways to make it generate 172 volts?

I have the same message for you, the best way for you to appreciate what you are doing on your bench with your coil experiments and to do better experiments is to learn first about the fundamental basics about how coils work.  It's all up to you.

MileHigh


MH,
I just send you that clip in context of we are talking about use square wave to tune the coil and i add : "There you have a jagged scope feed by a square wave"  but that simple bad quality video could show you too how bad is the transfer of power in a bifilar pancake coil .
But you like distort and manipulate the words , but nothing that majority of people that normally came to this forum  already don't know , is MH in their old fashion behavior  .

That coil is special  for sure  : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGyz31yaCdw
Now make you own interpretation if you could or if you want , and i know for sure that you will say exactly the same thing that you already state before :
 nothing interesting  .

Do not waste your time with me anymore, you're just wasting your time , is not easy understand you really .

Peace to you!  for sure your soul need that .


Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 26, 2017, 01:26:47 AM

MH,
I just send you that clip in context of we are talking about use square wave to tune the coil and i add : "There you have a jagged scope feed by a square wave"  but that simple bad quality video could show you too how bad is the transfer of power in a bifilar pancake coil .
But you like distort and manipulate the words , but nothing that majority of people that normally came to this forum  already don't know , is MH in their old fashion behavior  .

That coil is special  for sure  : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGyz31yaCdw
Now make you own interpretation if you could or if you want , and i know for sure that you will say exactly the same thing that you already state before :
 nothing interesting  .

Do not waste your time with me anymore, you're just wasting your time , is not easy understand you really .

Peace to you!  for sure your soul need that .


Nelson Rocha


PS - MH is you a man or a  "grown" kid ?  I can sense to that you are from Canada because you have fun just go make dislike just by fun .
Grow your inside man !
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 26, 2017, 01:51:07 AM

Very nice explanation ***** stars :)
Thanks!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 26, 2017, 03:04:28 AM

PS - MH is you a man or a  "grown" kid ?  I can sense to that you are from Canada because you have fun just go make dislike just by fun .
Grow your inside man !

You made some claims and when you were asked to back them up you had nothing to say.  I wasn't asking my questions for fun, I wanted to see what you had to say, which we now know is nothing.  Anybody can play with a coil and light some LEDs.  Who is acing like the child?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 26, 2017, 03:22:07 AM
That coil is special  for sure  : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGyz31yaCdw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGyz31yaCdw)
Now make you own interpretation if you could or if you want , and i know for sure that you will say exactly the same thing that you already state before :
 nothing interesting  .
Nelson Rocha

I suppose that you would agree with your commenter on your clip that said this: "we dont see any disturb in the magneticfield ( as both compass shows) as the current flows through the pancake coils, and thats really odd...and amazing too."  Hmm, that sort of sounds like you.

So, why do the compass needles not move when the current is flowing through the pancake coil?

Oh I know the answer, it's because pancake coils have very special and amazing properties and this is an example of the amazing pancake coil's special properties.  Pancake coils don't deflect compass needles and regular coils do deflect compass needles.  Wow!  I can't actually explain why this is happening but I have made an amazing observation that shows how truly amazing the pancake coil really is.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 26, 2017, 03:56:04 AM
I suppose that you would agree with your commenter on your clip that said this: "we dont see any disturb in the magneticfield ( as both compass shows) as the current flows through the pancake coils, and thats really odd...and amazing too."  Hmm, that sort of sounds like you.

So, why do the compass needles not move when the current is flowing through the pancake coil?

Oh I know the answer, it's because pancake coils have very special and amazing properties and this is an example of the amazing pancake coil's special properties.  Pancake coils don't deflect compass needles and regular coils do deflect compass needles.  Wow!  I can't actually explain why this is happening but I have made an amazing observation that shows how truly amazing the pancake coil really is.

You are a really sad person .. a sour guy ,  Treat yourself man

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 26, 2017, 04:24:33 AM
You are a really sad person .. a sour guy ,  Treat yourself man

Nelson Rocha

Stop with your psychobabble nonsense.  I will meet your psychobabble and we will call it a truce.  You and Evostars fit the psychological profile that we all know and have seen many times before.  You think you are doing something special and you are inspired.  However, solid correct information about electronics and your experiments coming from other people is upsetting to you because it goes against your whole belief system.  It upsets you when you are told things that are not what you believed for yourself and they are not what you want to hear.  It really upsets you when you are told things that you don't understand because you were convinced that you knew what you were doing.  So within a short time you reject the discussion and even start to refuse to listen to any new ideas.  You start to cling to your belief system and you want to shut down any conversation.  You stick your head in the sand.  You even get desperate and start to insult the people that you were having a debate with.

We all know how the story ends also.  After a few months of replicating all of the flashing LED experiments and the lighting of CFL experiments and replicating some amazing high voltage spark experiments done with coils, you start to lose enthusiasm and it gets less and less interesting.  You realize that after six months your progress is not going anywhere and you still don't really understand basic electronics.  So you give up and throw your coils into a cardboard box.  Five years later you realize that you still haven't touched the box and you throw it in the garbage.

Time to stick your head in the sand (don't read this):  And when you first connect the wires from your battery to your coil, at that instant of contact the coil acts like an open-circuit.  The coil has infinite resistance when you first make an electrical contact with it.  It's all very interesting, but you don't want to know that, you want to make neons light up in your hand!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 26, 2017, 04:29:33 AM
Stop with your psychobabble nonsense.  I will meet your psychobabble and we will call it a truce.  You and Evostars fit the psychological profile that we all know and have seen many times before.  You think you are doing something special and you are inspired.  However, solid correct information about electronics and your experiments coming from other people is upsetting to you because it goes against your whole belief system.  It upsets you when you are told things that are not what you believed for yourself and they are not what you want to hear.  It really upsets you when you are told things that you don't understand because you were convinced that you knew what you were doing.  So within a short time you reject the discussion and even start to refuse to listen to any new ideas.  You start to cling to your belief system and you want to shut down any conversation.  You stick your head in the sand.  You even get desperate and start to insult the people that you were having a debate with.

We all know how the story ends also.  After a few months of replicating all of the flashing LED experiments and the lighting of CFL experiments and replicating some amazing high voltage spark experiments done with coils, you start to lose enthusiasm and it gets less and less interesting.  You realize that after six months your progress is not going anywhere and you still don't really understand basic electronics.  So you give up and throw your coils into a cardboard box.  Five years later you realize that you still haven't touched the box and you throw it in the garbage.

Time to stick your head in the sand (don't read this):  And when you first connect the wires from your battery to your coil, at that instant of contact the coil acts like an open-circuit.  The coil has infinite resistance when you first make an electrical contact with it.  It's all very interesting, but you don't want to know that, you want to make neons light up in your hand!

The dogs bark and the caravan passes ...
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 26, 2017, 04:37:34 AM
The dogs bark and the caravan passes ...

Well that's and interesting proverb that I never heard before.  From Wikipedia it means, "History (or progress) moves ahead, no matter the criticism it may attract."

You should look up Dunning-Kruger effect.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 26, 2017, 05:01:03 AM
Well that's and interesting proverb that I never heard before.  From Wikipedia it means, "History (or progress) moves ahead, no matter the criticism it may attract."

You should look up Dunning-Kruger effect.

Are you try describe yourself  ? i know what is Dunning-Kruger effect and really apply to you . You make considerations with nonsense , that only make people don't like you .
You talk about flashing LED experiments, lighting of CFL experiments  where you see that ? Did you see that in my videos ?
Have i insult you ? Where i did that ?
Do you know in what i believe ?  I believe that you could not explain most of what you are criticize even reproduce yourself any of that points that we are talking even single one.
I know some people with caustic discourse  in this forum but at least justify their acts showing and justifying through elaborate circuits to correct other people.
But you are not able even to that even so long years of presence in this forum .
Myself did not refuse to hear you , only disagree about your considerations , but you can not accept that .
When you talk about all of us, do you refer to what people?
Are you speaking on behalf of a community? I saw no one here to support your sharing and your speech, but the exact opposite. I think you are alone like most of time a solitaire person that needs to draw the attention of people.
The topic was open by the evostars with the intention of talk about their experiments , and know what is happens ? A guy that normally Is ignored by his arrogance judge without any thing in their hands  make their own judge without any respect .
You should rebirth yourself to be a new person , because life is so short to you throw way in that way .
I'm really sorry by you . really
 
Nelson Rocha

 
 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 26, 2017, 05:12:40 AM
Go play with your coils.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 26, 2017, 05:14:22 AM
Go play with your coils.


I will follow you advice my friend ;)  Is nice you give a valid tip !
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 26, 2017, 05:22:27 AM
I don't think that (pancake) coil is special , i guarantee that is real special because i already test it, otherwise why should i use in my work?

Crickets chirping.  The sound of one hand clapping.

Have a nice day Nelson.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 26, 2017, 05:24:11 AM
Crickets chirping.  The sound of one hand clapping.

Have a nice day Nelson.

I appreciate that you calm down . is better to you and everybody .
Have a nice day too MH
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 26, 2017, 02:47:37 PM
This is FALSE.
How exactly your bifilar coil has been wound? Because what your picture shows (http://i.imgur.com/D2nsVLp.gif) apparently isn't the bifilar coil.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 26, 2017, 02:51:24 PM
Quote
That coil is special  for sure (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGyz31yaCd) ...Oh I know the answer, it's because pancake coils have very special and amazing properties and this is an example of the amazing pancake coil's special properties.

As I tried to explain here (http://overunity.com/8341/joule-thief-101/msg502256), the bifilar coils are really special - but not because their magnetic field of their windings compensates and zeroes itself at distance - because this is exactly what we can expect even in Maxwell's theory. It's due to fact, they compress and squeeze the vacuum fluctuations, not just reorient them - so that they radiate scalar A-field. This aspect they have in common with partnered bucking coils, the magnetic field of which also point toward each other. One aspect of this deform of vacuum is, it allows single-wire transfer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_transmission_line) in form of evanescent waves (which also have scalar component). Even more importantly, it allows the anapole field propagation, which is required for overunity and draining the energy from vacuum into account of variable speed of light and energy propagation. Because only the squeezing of vacuum fluctuations is what changes the permittivity and permeability of the vacuum.

Normally the vacuum fluctuations behave like the pieces of jelly: if we squeeze them, then they expand in another perpendicular direction (http://i.imgur.com/JF7qBFY.gif) - which is what initiates the simultaneous propagation of electrostatic and electromagnetic fields, as predicted by Maxwell theory. But this kind of deform is not what actually changes the properties of vacuum fluctuations, because the volume and concentration of vacuum fluctuations doesn't really change during it - they just change their orientation and shape.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: gyulasun on March 26, 2017, 03:22:53 PM
How exactly your bifilar coil has been wound? Because what your picture shows apparently isn't the bifilar coil.

Hi Zephir,

Would you arrange the three pictures vertically please? So the horizontal pixels would go below 1000 and we would need not scroll sideways back and force to read the posts. Your picture now has 1462 horizontal pixels, just place the picturs one under the other and upload again. You can use the 'Modify' icon at the upper right hand side of your post  to access your picture.

Thanks, Gyula
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 26, 2017, 03:39:58 PM
Unfortunately, I can't.  :'( I already have a smaller version of picture prepared, but I can't change the attachment, neither delete the above post. I can only delete the attachment from post.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 26, 2017, 04:13:23 PM
How exactly your bifilar coil has been wound? Because what your picture shows (http://i.imgur.com/D2nsVLp.gif) apparently isn't the bifilar coil.

Wrong again. The bifilar coil is wound with two strands and the top of one strand is connected to the bottom of the other strand, standard Tesla bifilar style. This discussion originally started with solenoidal coils so I have shown the comparison between two solenoidal coils, one with just a single strand, and the other with the Tesla bifilar connection with two strands. Both the standard single-strand solenoid and the Tesla bifilar winding contain the same total length of wire.

If you would like to dispute the findings, feel free to post your own constructions and meter tests. Don't simply quote myths from the internet!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: web000x on March 26, 2017, 04:17:28 PM

To me this says the bifilar coil, is dodging lenz law (which isnt a law, but a observation)



Do you have any experimental evidence to support this?  I am not challenging you in a malicious way, but rather I too am curious about this path...


Thanks,


Dave
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 26, 2017, 04:23:39 PM
As I tried to explain here (http://overunity.com/8341/joule-thief-101/msg502256), the bifilar coils are really special - but not because their magnetic field of their windings compensates and zeroes itself at distance - because this is exactly what we can expect even in Maxwell's theory. It's due to fact, they compress and squeeze the vacuum fluctuations, not just reorient them - so that they radiate scalar A-field. This aspect they have in common with partnered bucking coils, the magnetic field of which also point toward each other. One aspect of this deform of vacuum is, it allows single-wire transfer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_transmission_line) in form of evanescent waves (which also have scalar component). Even more importantly, it allows the anapole field propagation, which is required for overunity and draining the energy from vacuum into account of variable speed of light and energy propagation. Because only the squeezing of vacuum fluctuations is what changes the permittivity and permeability of the vacuum.

Normally the vacuum fluctuations behave like the pieces of jelly: if we squeeze them, then they expand in another perpendicular direction (http://i.imgur.com/JF7qBFY.gif) - which is what initiates the simultaneous propagation of electrostatic and electromagnetic fields, as predicted by Maxwell theory. But this kind of deform is not what actually changes the properties of vacuum fluctuations, because the volume and concentration of vacuum fluctuations doesn't really change during it - they just change their orientation and shape.

You are hilarious! Cargo Cult "science"! You cannot provide any experimental evidence for your claims and assertions about "vacuum fluctuations". Or, you can do what some other people have done and "explain" ordinary RF and HV effects using jargon and jive and misinterpretations.

The only thing special about Tesla Bifilar coils is that they have increased inter-turn capacitance when compared to ordinary single-strand coils of the same amount of wire, as Tesla himself noted in his patent. This had the advantage, in Tesla's day, of reducing the amount of costly and hard to build external capacitors required to attain resonance at any particular frequency, as he noted in his patent. Today we have much improved capacitor technology so this factor isn't very important any more.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 26, 2017, 04:27:35 PM
There exist four types of bifilar wound coils:1.Parallel- wound, series connected;2.Parallel-wound, parallel connected;3.Counter-wound, series connected;4.Counter-wound, parallel connected. For me the bifilar coil is this one  (http://i.imgur.com/GpKGTgJ.png): hairpin bifilar (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcFySCAxLzs). Such a coil would really have self-inductance suppressed (http://i.imgur.com/rRBvcov.gif).

Quote
The only thing special about Tesla Bifilar coils is that they have increased inter-turn capacitance
This is actually bad thing for scalar wave physics and from this reason Tesla did use conical and bi-conical coils.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 26, 2017, 05:31:10 PM

Do you have any experimental evidence to support this?  I am not challenging you in a malicious way, but rather I too am curious about this path...

Thanks,


Dave
So far,  no i haven't. its my interpretation of what tesla states in his patent 512340. this triggered my interest in the bifilar pancake coil. and after i saw the resonant frequency voltage rise,  i was hooked.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 26, 2017, 05:39:00 PM
There exist four types of bifilar wound coils:1.Parallel- wound, series connected;2.Parallel-wound, parallel connected;3.Counter-wound, series connected;4.Counter-wound, parallel connected. For me the bifilar coil is this one  (http://i.imgur.com/GpKGTgJ.png): hairpin bifilar (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcFySCAxLzs). Such a coil would really have self-inductance suppressed (http://i.imgur.com/rRBvcov.gif).
This is actually bad thing for scalar wave physics and from this reason Tesla did use conical and bi-conical coils.
indeed. long ago my physics teacher told me you can power a coil,  but without a magnetic field,  and no heat production. but where does the energy go? very interesting. The caduceus coil does have some iinteresting properties, when working with dielectricity. I use them in series between the resonant coil an the earth connection, to get more voltage rise.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 26, 2017, 05:48:27 PM
As I tried to explain here (http://overunity.com/8341/joule-thief-101/msg502256), the bifilar coils are really special - but not because their magnetic field of their windings compensates and zeroes itself at distance - because this is exactly what we can expect even in Maxwell's theory. It's due to fact, they compress and squeeze the vacuum fluctuations, not just reorient them - so that they radiate scalar A-field. This aspect they have in common with partnered bucking coils, the magnetic field of which also point toward each other. One aspect of this deform of vacuum is, it allows single-wire transfer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_transmission_line) in form of evanescent waves (which also have scalar component). Even more importantly, it allows the anapole field propagation, which is required for overunity and draining the energy from vacuum into account of variable speed of light and energy propagation. Because only the squeezing of vacuum fluctuations is what changes the permittivity and permeability of the vacuum.

Normally the vacuum fluctuations behave like the pieces of jelly: if we squeeze them, then they expand in another perpendicular direction (http://i.imgur.com/JF7qBFY.gif) - which is what initiates the simultaneous propagation of electrostatic and electromagnetic fields, as predicted by Maxwell theory. But this kind of deform is not what actually changes the properties of vacuum fluctuations, because the volume and concentration of vacuum fluctuations doesn't really change during it - they just change their orientation and shape.
I have to look up what you are talking about, it sure sounds interesting.
for me it it clear that compression / implosion of the ether is important, thats why i started using 3 bifilar pancake coils (tesla style). hooked the  top and bottom in series,  so the counter winding fields would compress in between them.  my 3rd coil in the middle was in the compression zone, to collect.
after a while i reversed the process. pulsing the middle coil,  and collecting from the top (north)  of the series coils.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 26, 2017, 06:25:54 PM
The experiments are indeed important - but you should have at least clue, what you should expect. The bifilar coils should by used like the collectors of energy - but not like the driving/inducer coils, where the classical coils must be used instead. This is because in bifilar coil the magnetic flux gets compressed BETWEEN wires of their windings, not OUTSIDE them - so it has no meaning to place another coil there.

Actually many overunity devices, like the Steven Mark's TPU or classical MEG of Thomas Bearden are constructed in similar way: they're composed of pair partnered/bucking coils running in opposite polarity and they collect the surplus of energy from central part, where mutual collision of their magnetic fields/i.e the compression of vacuum fluctuations occurs. Because the excessive energy is scalar, the bifilar coils or partnered coils are used for it. This is essentially a scalar wave transformer running on changes of size of ferromagnetic domains instead of their orientation, like normal transformers. Even the seemingly unrelated devices like the generator of Infinity SAV Team (https://www.reddit.com/r/Physics_AWT/comments/50ptcl/does_infinity_sav_team_generator_work_on_scalar) work in this way. This construction is apparently derived from much older Bedini's bucking field energizer (http://www.eternaltruth.net/Science/JOHN%20Bedini%20IDEAS%20AND%20MOTORS_files/BuckingFieldGen.jpg): its rotor moves neodymium magnets around ferromagnetic cores of bifilar coils in stator and the output energy is drained from stator coils.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 26, 2017, 07:00:27 PM
The experiments are important, but you should always have at least clue, what is going on. The bifilar coils should by used like the collectors of energy - but not like the inducer coils, where the classical coils must be used instead.

Actually many overunity devices, like the Steven Mark's TPU or classical MEG of Thomas Bearden are constructed in similar way: they're composed of pair partnered/bucking coils running in opposite polarity and they collect the surplus of energy from central part, where mutual collision of their magnetic fields/i.e the compression of vacuum fluctuations occurs. Because the excessive energy is scalar, the bifilar coils or partnered coils are used for it. This is essentially a scalar wave transformer running on changes of size of ferromagnetic domains instead of their orientation, like normal transformers. Even the seemingly unrelated devices like the generator of Infinity SAV Team (https://www.reddit.com/r/Physics_AWT/comments/50ptcl/does_infinity_sav_team_generator_work_on_scalar) work in this way. This construction is apparently derived from much older Bedini's bucking field energizer (http://www.eternaltruth.net/Science/JOHN%20Bedini%20IDEAS%20AND%20MOTORS_files/BuckingFieldGen.jpg): its rotor moves neodymium magnets around ferromagnetic cores of bifilar coils in stator and the output energy is drained from stator coils.
Very interesting, Related to this is this video:
https://youtu.be/WkVC7lqc--0
What you see is a ferro cell, it is a ferrofluid in a penetrating oil, with a ring of lights surrounding it. It perfectly show the magnetic vortexes.

This video shows the new vortex created, when magnets are held close together. The strongest vortex that appears is in repulsion. It clearly shows 3 poles. Three!   
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 26, 2017, 07:10:53 PM
Quote
It clearly shows 3 poles. Three!
The black spots at your video aren't poles strictly speaking - just areas, where the magnetic fields of two magnets compensate mutually. The scalar A-field is weak and it cannot be demonstrated in this way, as the places where two or more magnetic field compensate mutually wouldn't differ visually from places of plain absence of magnetic field in your device. But if you would look at the scalar field with microscope, you could see, that the particles are moving faster there (Brownian noise gets more intensive there).

How the scalar field can be proven and studied after then? The very scientific way is Juday-White warp field interferometer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White%E2%80%93Juday_warp-field_interferometer), which detects the minute changes in speed of light between bucking coils or magnets in repulsive arrangement. But these changes are very minute and from practical perspective even useless, as we are more interested about motion of charged particles, like the electrons in electrical circuits. The compressed vacuum exhibits time compression and these particles are therefore propagate faster and their thermal noise gets enhanced. And this is actually what can be already measured with semiconductor junction of small area (pin-diode), so that this noise cannot get averaged so easily. Actually we can see, that the diode is serving like the weak source of power between magnets, i.e. like the electrosmog harvester (https://www.reddit.com/r/Physics_AWT/comments/5a8yat/environmental_electrosmog_harvester_feeding_led).

Another method is dynamic and it utilizes the Barkhaussen noise (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLXVLDysroY). The increased scalar noise of vacuum decreases the activation energy for reorientation of magnetic domains, so that less Barkhaussen noise is actually detected, when the magnetization of ferromagnet is changing regularly.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 26, 2017, 08:16:20 PM
As I tried to explain here (http://overunity.com/8341/joule-thief-101/msg502256), the bifilar coils are really special - but not because their magnetic field of their windings compensates and zeroes itself at distance - because this is exactly what we can expect even in Maxwell's theory. It's due to fact, they compress and squeeze the vacuum fluctuations, not just reorient them - so that they radiate scalar A-field. This aspect they have in common with partnered bucking coils, the magnetic field of which also point toward each other. One aspect of this deform of vacuum is, it allows single-wire transfer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_transmission_line) in form of evanescent waves (which also have scalar component). Even more importantly, it allows the anapole field propagation, which is required for overunity and draining the energy from vacuum into account of variable speed of light and energy propagation. Because only the squeezing of vacuum fluctuations is what changes the permittivity and permeability of the vacuum.

Normally the vacuum fluctuations behave like the pieces of jelly: if we squeeze them, then they expand in another perpendicular direction (http://i.imgur.com/JF7qBFY.gif) - which is what initiates the simultaneous propagation of electrostatic and electromagnetic fields, as predicted by Maxwell theory. But this kind of deform is not what actually changes the properties of vacuum fluctuations, because the volume and concentration of vacuum fluctuations doesn't really change during it - they just change their orientation and shape.

Well, the compass needles don't move because they are in a high-frequency AC magnetic field.  So the "shaking" of the compass needles is so fast that the needles don't respond.  In fancy terms the compass needle is a low-pass mechanical filter that will not respond to the high-frequency AC torque induced on it by the high-frequency AC magnetic field.  The same principle will apply to any type of coil, it does not have to be a pancake coil.  There is nothing remarkable demonstrated in the clip.

As far as pancake coils go, we know that each loop of the coil will generate a doughnut-shaped toroidal magnetic field.  The larger the loop, the larger the dimensions of the toroidal magnetic field.  We also know that for any point in space around the coil, you can do simple vector addition (magnitude and direction) for the magnetic vector supplied by each of the toroidal magnetic fields which come from each of the wire loops.  Depending on what point in space you are considering, there will sometimes be a considerable amount of magnetic vector subtraction (magnetic field self-cancellation).  Points that are farther away from the pancake coil will see mostly magnetic vector addition.  Whenever you have magnetic vector subtraction, that represents a lowering of the inductance of the coil because the magnetic fields are cancelling each other out.

Here is a nice little clip showing the vector addition and vector subtraction of the magnetic field for the case of two parallel lengths of wire:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0FbuTBd26s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0FbuTBd26s)

Sorry to tell you this, but this simple explanation trumps your word salad of vacuum fluctuations, the scalar A field, and anapole field propagation.

Who would have thought, eh?  A pancake coil is ultimately just a coil, a length of wire that is in a certain shape that has the property of inductance.  I mean you could take a length of wire and bunch it all up in your hands so that it becomes a random compressed mangled mess of wire and it would still have a measurable inductance and still obey the fundamental magnetic field property of vector addition.  You could study this random bunched up mess of wire on your bench and measure its inductance.  Heck, you could even carefully wrap some wire around a plastic toroid that you get from a children's toy and create what's called a "Rodin coil."  This "Rodin coil" would simply exhibit the property of inductance no different from a random mangled bunch of wire.

Isn't science and rational thought wonderful?

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 26, 2017, 08:52:57 PM
Quote
Sorry to tell you this, but this simple explanation trumps your word salad of vacuum fluctuations, the scalar A field, and anapole field propagation.
LOL, this is like to oppose the aether existence with special relativity or the overunity with energy conservation law. Of course, that according to special relativity the aether is impossible or according to energy conservation law the overunity is impossible. We all know about it very well. But why are you visiting this forum (until you're not governmental or fossil fuel lobby agent, indeed)? Because you're believing, that the overunity is still somehow possible. And until it's possible, then the energy conservation law (and probably also many others, the derivation of which relies on energy balance) must get broken in this way or another.. There is no other way, how to achieve it.

One of such laws is the vector calculus (rules for addition and multiplication of vectors) under conditions, when the vacuum density (speed of energy propagation) changes locally in it from place to place. The operations with vectors are additive only in perfectly homogeneous space-time or at distances, at which its fluctuations compensate mutually. Once the vacuum is elastic (which must be, or the energy and light wouldn't propagate through it in waves), then it also must be compressible. And once it is compressible so that the speed of energy propagation changes from place to place or temporarily, then the laws for vector additions simply don't apply anymore. Or better to say, these laws still apply, but the additional scalar dimension for vector addition must be considered there.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 26, 2017, 09:02:54 PM
Quote
A pancake coil is ultimately just a coil, a length of wire that is in a certain shape that has the property of inductance.
A simple experiment disproves it - the Aharamov-Bohm experiment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aharonov%E2%80%93Bohm_effect). In this experiment the path of charged particles gets affected, even when the magnetic field cannot affect them. The actual path of particles can be traced with double slit and the magnetic field of coil can switch it even at the case, when this coil gets very long. Which is indeed strange, because for long solenoid all fields should get concentrated inside it in similar way, like the magnetic field of toroidal coil - just because of vector calculus. The explanation therefore is, the coil generates additional A-field, which the charged particles are also sensitive on - and this field gets generated even outside it where it affects the vector operations. When the magnetic field of two or more coils get compensated, this A-field component remains, so that the vector operations don't apply there anymore - despite the B-field component of magnetic field is already zero.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 26, 2017, 09:26:28 PM
Whoops!  Last time I looked, we aren't the size of quantum particles and we live on a scale of meters.  We don't exist at the sub-Angstrom level.  That messy random bunch of wire sitting on your bench is a perfectly valid inductor and the vector addition of the magnetic fields holds.

We are in Kansas, we are not microbes dancing on the head of a pin in a seamstress's drawer in Whoville.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 26, 2017, 09:31:43 PM
@Zephir:
I tried opposing fields, north north, but It takes a lot of power to do so, my pulse driver became hot.
Also, I'm inspired by nature, and so far nature doesnt show me opposing fields.
For me it's unnatural, so I dropped the subject (for now).

I rather aim for a resonant system, that once it is vibrating in its resonant frequency, it creates energy.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 26, 2017, 09:42:44 PM
Quote
We don't exist at the sub-Angstrom level
The Aharamov-Bohm experiment works for macroscopic slits - it can be observed with naked eye. We aren't required to be of size of molecules for still being able to utilize the energy of chemical reactions - well, and the overunity phenomena are similar. I of course respect, that you don't believe in overunity at all - but after then I don't understand, what you're looking for here. The haters of cats have no reason to visit the forums about cats and forum about overunity is similar case.

Quote
I rather aim for a resonant system, that once it is vibrating in its resonant frequency, it creates energy
But why the plain resonance should create it? The resonance is very classical effect which works even with mechanical waves and I don't see any logic for it. The opposing fields exist in every pair of magnets in repulsive arrangement - I don't see any reason why their evidence should be doubted or why they should make some pulse driver hot - it's stationary effect.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on March 26, 2017, 09:45:29 PM
Hi Zephir,

It appears you have been doing a lot of studying searching for Overunity.  I also started about 10 years ago looking into the area of OU after finding a website about the John Bedini SSG.  Since I have over 50 years experience in electronics I wanted to investigate his claims.  What I learned is the SSG is simply a very efficient circuit for moving a wheel with magnets on it. It might interest you to know the Bulova Accutron watch that was invented in the late 1950s and introduced on the market in 1960 uses the almost exact same circuit.  It just uses that circuit to vibrate a tuning fork instead of moving a wheel.

Like you, I also got caught up in all the pseudo science jargon of moving the aether and scalar waves etc.  Ten years later I now know most of that is just hype to sell books.  Those words are used to impress the uneducated and to lead them away from any real research.  I don't know of a single person that ever got the MEG to work.  I know someone that is a personal friend of Tom Beardon and he doesn't have a working MEG either.

Getting an education from YouTube videos is not the way to learn about real electronics.  You need to take the time to really learn how things work if you expect to be able to accomplish anything.  I compare that to a person that wants to go exploring new territory but doesn't want to take the time to learn how to use a map or even study to see what areas are already explored.  Over and over again I see someone posting here and on other OU type sites about some great "new" discovery they think they have made.  When in fact they have just discovered a well know function or operation of a device or circuit.

I wrote all that to post this.  What MileHigh is telling you about the pancake bifiler coil is correct.  I am not saying that because we are great friends or something.  In fact I don't agree with him in a couple of areas which we won't go into here. But his explanations for the way a coil works are correct.  I have found no evidence to believe there is anything else going on with the bifiler coil.

Just so you will understand where I am coming from I DO believe OU may be possible.  I have built many many circuits and machines over the last 10 years looking for OU.  I am not a naysayer about OU.  But I think we have to forget all the nonsense posted on YouTube and other places and stick to what the evidence shows while looking for new evidence that may show us more.  Throwing away the old evidence when there is no new evidence is not very smart.

Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 26, 2017, 09:55:06 PM
But why the plain resonance should create it?
Good question.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 26, 2017, 09:56:34 PM
Quote
I am not a naysayer about OU.  But I think we have to forget all the nonsense posted on OU and other places and stick to what the evidence shows while looking for new evidence that may show us more.  Throwing away the old evidence when there is no new evidence is not very smart.
New evidence emerges each day - it just emerges in private sector, which you cannot get more information from (Akula, Infinity SAV team, etc.) Don't expect, someone of these guys will kindly tell you, how his device is actually working. We must find it together here again from scratch. Of course, you can just wait for new evidence outside this forum - but don't expect, that someone will give you more information than for example Akula did. And I'm not throwing old evidence at all - instead of it, I'm just explaining you here (http://overunity.com/17186/the-bifilar-pancake-coil-at-its-resonant-frequency/105), what the old and new overunity devices have in common and how to explain/interpret their similarity in most straightforward way.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 26, 2017, 10:17:28 PM
this topic thread seems to have stirred alot.
a lot of posts in less then a week.

but a lot of it, is simply off topic. I dont like this.  :(

please make your own topics,  where you can discuss them.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 26, 2017, 10:34:32 PM
Is there any reason to prevent people from having different opinions?
Is there any extra motivation for this type of behavior here demonstrated by a certain element?

For this type of people who think and proclaim their wisdom as absolute there are forums where the word Overunity is not used and where they can demonstrate all their "recital" of information to those who agree with their perspectives.
This is a free opinion site, and I completely agree that there are different opinions, but imposing something as absolute and wanting to force people to eat the same "straw" they eat seems to me a bit altruistic.
Most have already understood the divergent opinions, and now? What do you want more?
What is the concern about our different point of view on a certain subject?
We have already fully understood your opinion. Nothing more to add ...
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Dog-One on March 26, 2017, 10:36:20 PM
You are doing great work evostars.  I'd really like to see you and Nelson
keep moving forward.  Best you can, try to ignore the noise.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 26, 2017, 10:41:11 PM
Quote from: citfta
John Bedini SSG is simply a very efficient circuit for moving a wheel with magnets on it. ... Bulova Accutron ..just uses that circuit to vibrate a tuning fork instead of moving a wheel
If you believe it's the same circuit, then you can never replicate anything from overunity circles, because your resolving power is too low. You're in position of tribesmen, who want to replicate plane (https://blog.xebialabs.com/2014/12/10/cargo-cult-devops/). Nearly the same applies to attempts for replication of overunity devices without any underlying theory - simply by looking at attempts of others. You can succeed only by pure accident after then.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 26, 2017, 10:54:52 PM
Is there any reason to prevent people from having different opinions?

Yes indeed, this is a discussion forum and different points of view can and should be heard.  It's the whole idea behind a discussion forum.

If you believe it's the same circuit, then you can never replicate anything from overunity circles, because your resolving power is too low. You're in position of tribesmen, who want to replicate plane (https://blog.xebialabs.com/2014/12/10/cargo-cult-devops/). Nearly the same applies to attempts for replication of overunity devices without any underlying theory - simply by looking at attempts of others. You can succeed only by pure accident after then.

I suppose the key question is who is building the plane and who is looking at the spectacle of those building the plane?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 26, 2017, 10:55:00 PM

Like you, I also got caught up in all the pseudo science jargon of moving the aether and scalar waves etc.  Ten years later I now know most of that is just hype to sell books.  Those words are used to impress the uneducated and to lead them away from any real research. 

Sorry Carrol but i really don't understand what you try say with pseudo science when you talk of ether . In the time that word  is "founded" There was not the same disinformation motivation that exists today or even to sell books, and is unquestionable and undeniable  the contribution by the father of the word aether Sir Oliver Lodge to science , and after used by Nikola Tesla too .
As I mentioned earlier, this forum is free and we all have different opinions, but the contribution of those same people I mentioned is undeniable even when Discredited and censored by some people like happens in out times and for sure will continue happen .
In that way i could say the time is the best judge.

Respectfully :

Nelson Rocha
 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 26, 2017, 11:00:13 PM
Yes indeed, this is a discussion forum and different points of view can and should be heard.  It's the whole idea behind a discussion forum.

I suppose the key question is who is building the plane and who is looking at the spectacle of those building the plane?

I will repeat myself :

We already hear your opinion ,  but you can not impose your ideas on others. We have already noticed your opinion and I am grateful for it. Do you have anything else to add?

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on March 26, 2017, 11:01:37 PM
If you believe it's the same circuit, then you can never replicate anything from overunity circles, because your resolving power is too low. You're in position of tribesmen, who want to replicate plane (https://blog.xebialabs.com/2014/12/10/cargo-cult-devops/). Nearly the same applies to attempts for replication of overunity devices without any underlying theory - simply by looking at attempts of others. You can succeed only by pure accident after then.

Sorry Zephir, but your comment make absolutely no sense.  Have you even looked at the circuit for the Bulova watch?  It uses a magnet to trigger a coil connected to the base of a transistor to turn on the drive coils which vibrate the tuning fork.  I understand it perfectly because I do have the theory to back it up.

Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 26, 2017, 11:03:23 PM
Quote
pseudo science jargon of moving the aether and scalar waves
You're at overunity forum and I can assure you, that overunity is even bigger pseudoscience for mainstream physicists, than the aether concept (which at least some mainstream physicists (I mean Nobelists) believe in (http://gsjournal.net/Science-Journals/Communications-Astrophysics/Download/3513)). But it just seems for me, this site is already driven by people, the agenda of which is to dilute every discussion, which could make the overunity more real for masses.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on March 26, 2017, 11:06:13 PM
Sorry Carrol but i really don't understand what you try say with pseudo science when you talk of ether . In the time that word  is "founded" There was not the same disinformation motivation that exists today or even to sell books, and is unquestionable and undeniable  the contribution by the father of the word aether Sir Oliver Lodge to science , and after used by Nikola Tesla too .
As I mentioned earlier, this forum is free and we all have different opinions, but the contribution of those same people I mentioned is undeniable even when Discredited and censored by some people like happens in out times and for sure will continue happen .
In that way i could say the time is the best judge.

Respectfully :

Nelson Rocha

Hi Nelson,

Yes I am aware of the proper use of the term "ether" but you have to admit the way it is misused today is not the way it was used by Tesla and others.

Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 26, 2017, 11:13:05 PM
Quote
Have you even looked at the circuit for the Bulova watch?
The mechanical arrangement of Accutron watches is completely different from Bedinni's Monopole Mechanical Oscillator - and I'm not even looking at their circuit. In Accutron watches the magnetic circuit gets never interrupted, both coils have magnetic field oriented in the same direction (no monopole is thus there) and so on. It has no meaning to discuss such a BS as it would completely diverge the discussion. You could replicate Bedini's motor another one hundred years without success with such an ignorant attitude.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 26, 2017, 11:18:24 PM
Hi Nelson,

Yes I am aware of the proper use of the term "ether" but you have to admit the way it is misused today is not the way it was used by Tesla and others.

Carroll

Carrol i agree with you when you say that is misused today by a lot of people , but you will agree for sure just because some could do that , we should say that words is all pseudo science. I read a lot where i can include some of books of Oliver lodge  , and i don't come just to throw up what I read , because need to be understood  in different temporal context  .
I will recommend you one of the best book that you should read if you do not know,  The Ether of Space . I like to in particular the Modern Scientific Ideas .

Respectfully

Nelson Rocha

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on March 26, 2017, 11:24:36 PM


Now you are clearly demonstrating your lack of electronics knowledge.  Here is the circuit of the Accutron watch.  I never said the mechanical working was the same.  I said the electronic circuit was almost identical because it uses a magnet to trigger coil F1 in the drawing which is exactly the same way the Bedini SSG is triggered.  When the transistor is turned on it pulses the drive coils just like the SSG pulses the main coil.  The drive coils cause the tiny tuning fork to vibrate.  In the SSG the drive coil kicks the magnet away.

Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 26, 2017, 11:42:38 PM
This is just your theory of their similarity. The Bedini circuit is essentially a JouleThief circuit (http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Ch5/Fig4.gif) and it can oscillate on its very own. The Accutron circuit wouldn't oscillate without mechanical resonator (tuning fork fixed).

Quote
In the SSG the drive coil kicks the magnet away.

In another words, the magnets and driving coil form bucking circuit with magnetic fields arranged in OPPOSITE way. You're probably confusing Bedini's generator with Andrew's motor or some similar - yet very classical with respect to overunity - stepping motor device.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 27, 2017, 12:13:09 AM
We already hear your opinion ,  but you can not impose your ideas on others. We have already noticed your opinion and I am grateful for it. Do you have anything else to add?

I am not trying to impose anything on you and if I have something to add I will add it.  I post for the readers of the forum, both for the members and for the anonymous masses that lurk and read the forum.  My service is to them and I can assure you that many of them understand what I am saying and they understand my qualification of you and Evostars and they know exactly what container that the two of you fit into.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 27, 2017, 12:26:59 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiLgM3EkQBE
With this bifilar pancake coil i can charge the 12 v battery without magnet rotor, can you describe this experiment...?
Hi skycollection, what will happen, if you replace your battery with capacitor? Such a capacitor should recharge much faster and you would also have proof of self-running circuit.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 27, 2017, 12:31:02 AM
New evidence emerges each day - it just emerges in private sector, which you cannot get more information from (Akula, Infinity SAV team, etc.) Don't expect, someone of these guys will kindly tell you, how his device is actually working. We must find it together here again from scratch. Of course, you can just wait for new evidence outside this forum - but don't expect, that someone will give you more information than for example Akula did. And I'm not throwing old evidence at all - instead of it, I'm just explaining you here (http://overunity.com/17186/the-bifilar-pancake-coil-at-its-resonant-frequency/105), what the old and new overunity devices have in common and how to explain/interpret their similarity in most straightforward way.

By making reference to Akula as a legitimate person when no one can replicate yet another circuit does not help your credibility with a certain percentage of the readers.  Even many free energy enthusiasts feel that Akula was yet another fake.

Quote
We must find it together here again from scratch.

Of course we have to figure it out from scratch!  They never tell us!  All of those millions of people that starve to death each year from malnutrition where their lives could be saved by access to a new and cheap form of energy.  Think of all of the millions of children that could be saved.  And yet, every single free energy inventor never tells us how it works.  They put their own personal financial gain ahead of the millions of lives that they could save every year by fully open-sourcing their technology.  It's crazy because in this day and age, if they gave away their free energy technology then they would almost instantly become rich as celebrities and by going on speaking tours.  You would think that at least one of them would see the right path in life and do the right thing and end up saving millions of lives each year.  What a fantastic achievement that would be.

But alas, Akula remains somewhere in the steppes of Russia looking for another investor.  We must keep on searching and building and replicating.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 27, 2017, 12:52:42 AM
Quote
And yet, every single free energy inventor never tells us how it works.  They put their own personal financial gain ahead of the millions of lives that they could save every year by fully open-sourcing their technology.  It's crazy because in this day and age, if they gave away their free energy technology then they would almost instantly become rich as celebrities and by going on speaking tours.

IMO you're idealizing problem way too much. We can turn your question upside down and to ask, why the people, who want to save billions of children from starvation so much don't contribute the overunity inventors for their research? Why the scientists, who are already payed with millions by tax payers don't invest into research of these findings? For example Nelson Rocha here seems to have some working device (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmlpV1MWm40&list=PL86OtVC_1KJHeRn0zvSfnNrtOOh02zOYD&index=40) - why not to close a collective deal just with him? He just told us (http://i.imgur.com/bGacoZo.gif), he cannot tell the secret, only because he got few thousands(?) Euro for non-disclosure agreement with company, which bought his secret. So how much he would want for breaking it and submitting his secret for the rest of civilization? The Kickstarter is full of way crazier projects (http://guff.com/20-of-the-most-ridiculous-kickstarter-projects).

Quote
Even many free energy enthusiasts feel that Akula was yet another fake.
This is just a feeling. I've many feelings every five minutes. Solid evidence is what is required in both ways: both for confirmation, both for dismissal.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 27, 2017, 01:22:57 AM
You are doing great work evostars.  I'd really like to see you and Nelson
keep moving forward.  Best you can, try to ignore the noise.
Thanks
good to now someone is listening  ::)
I will continue making my video's,  think for myself, listen to my heart, and do the work that needs to be done.
 I did expect the abc agency's to do their job. and look what happend, within  a week.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: NRamaswami on March 27, 2017, 01:32:04 AM
Every possible Cop>1 device must use  either the combination of capacitors and Magnets or it must use another method. I have tested the first but I had been told that a device must run on its own to be considered cop>1 even if the input is low and output is high. And no scientist worth his name would endanger his career and certify such a device.

Nelson has his needs to be met. Why should he get in to legal troubles and cheat the investor who funded him.  I have seen all talks of poor children dying out of lack of energy is only an information extraction tool. And if you disclose all you get laughed at that it is not possible even without the other person verifying it. So why should we make ourselves ridiculed. This is the main reason.

Regards

Ramaswami
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 27, 2017, 01:33:58 AM
Quote
Every possible Cop>1 device must use  either the combination of capacitors and Magnets or it must use another method.
Indeed, I just want one particular device (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmlpV1MWm40) - not anything else. We just need to get one documented case of self-running circuit from scientific reasons, no matter how small or dull it actually is - actually the simpler, the better.
Quote
Why should he get in to legal troubles and cheat the investor who funded him.
He will not cheat anyone - he will indeed step out of contract (am I saying it correctly?) and he will return money which he got. Which is basically just his private business, nobody of us will check it.
Quote
all you get laughed at that it is not possible even without the other person verifying it
This is all solvable - if Nelson would agree with this plan at least theoretically, we can establish a new dedicated thread and to reconsider all options and legal circumstances at public. He's the main person in this deal.

Of course whoever else inventor may also apply in it instead/in addition of him.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 27, 2017, 02:23:32 AM
For example Nelson Rocha here seems to have some working device (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmlpV1MWm40&list=PL86OtVC_1KJHeRn0zvSfnNrtOOh02zOYD&index=40) - why not to close a collective deal just with him? He just told us (http://i.imgur.com/bGacoZo.gif), he cannot tell the secret, only because he got few thousands(?) Euro for non-disclosure agreement with company, which bought his secret.

Thanks for further qualifying yourself.  Did you notice that Nelson was putting mechanical energy from Mr. Hand into a piezo-electric spark generator taken from a cigarette lighter?  Perhaps that energy filled a capacitor until the voltage got high enough to trigger a Joule Thief circuit?  Or perhaps Nelson got a dose of RomeroUK sickness.  I get the feeling there is some poor guy in Kuala Lumpur that paid a few thousand dollars for a shoe box containing a Joule Thief circuit and every few months he stares at it.  That is not going to save the millions of people that starve to death each year.

Quote
This is just a feeling. I've many feelings every five minutes. Solid evidence is what is required in both ways: both for confirmation, both for dismissal.

Exactly so why are you even referencing Akula when you have no evidence whatsoever that he is real?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 27, 2017, 02:27:05 AM
Quote
Perhaps that energy filled a capacitor until the voltage got high enough to trigger a Joule Thief circuit?
This is exactly what I think. Kapanadze and Akula also started their "fonarik" with impulse from battery. Not a big deal. What else behavior would you expect from selfrunning circuit?
Quote
why are you even referencing Akula when you have no evidence whatsoever that he is real?
Oh, come on - we all have pile of evidence already. What I'm still missing is the PROOF - in the same way, like you. And why Akula couldn't have working device, once Nelson Rocha has it too? This is just a precedent.
Quote
That is not going to save the millions of people that starve to death each year.
Of course not - this would be just a beginning. A powering of LED. If every of us would have working device in hand, we could start with its improvement - together or individually. The important is, we all will have proof - not just an evidence - and also starting point for further research. It's difficult to invent fire, if you never saw it burning.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 27, 2017, 02:41:47 AM
I did expect the abc agency's to do their job. and look what happend, within  a week.

Thanks for injecting a little bit of high comedy into the thread.  It's a Dunning-Kruger comedic moment.  Here you have some semi-spiritual Joe Blow that barely understands anything about electronics and clearly has no understanding whatsoever about how a coil actually works in the real world.  He is just one of thousands of beginning electronics tinkerers on YouTube.  It took a few postings and a few hours to fully qualify you.  And yet you believe that the government is now watching you because you made some LEDs light up with some pancake coils and a battery?  It's truly a Monty Python moment.

I actually came into this thread very diplomatically and tried to explain to you what you were doing and observing.  I said that you can choose to go your own way, or try pursuing two paths such that you would try to learn and understand the information that I and others were offering you.  But of course now that you have been qualified your response is no surprise.  I am not from the MIB, and what you are saying is really something about yourself and not about me or TK or anyone else that you think dresses in a black suit with dark sunglasses.  Somebody like myself or TK could work with you on the bench for a few days and after that experience you would be in shock.  You have no respect whatsoever for science and knowledge and experience and electronics.  It's all just unwitting comic theater in the round at this point and the lights are on you.

I can assure you that I seriously doubt that I will post in this thread any more to try to help you with sound advice and explanations and to share some knowledge.  I will be more than content to watch the comedy skit from the sidelines.

And a shout-out to Carroll for backing me up about the pancake coil.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on March 27, 2017, 03:06:53 AM
You are welcome MH.  I am done here also.  They apparently aren't at all interested in learning anything that might disturb their fantasies.  Some people just refuse to accept help.  I do wonder sometimes if the ones calling others the MIB or whatever are not really one of them themselves and are only here to lead others astray with their wild theories.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on March 27, 2017, 03:13:43 AM
Nelson, I will look for the "Ether of Space" and if I find it I will read it.  I am always open to learn more.  I just get frustrated with people that refuse to accept what are perfectly normal observations about something.  Thanks for the tip.

Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 27, 2017, 07:02:08 AM
I am not trying to impose anything on you and if I have something to add I will add it.  I post for the readers of the forum, both for the members and for the anonymous masses that lurk and read the forum.  My service is to them and I can assure you that many of them understand what I am saying and they understand my qualification of you and Evostars and they know exactly what container that the two of you fit into.


If you don't want  impose anything what you want add more ??
"my qualification of you and Evostars and they know exactly what container that the two of you fit into"

  Now you start be rude man, you don't know me to make that type of judges about the persons . Take care, because i'm not sell any idea or even make profit did you understand that ?

I'm not free to answer in a topic open by another member ?
 For sure i'm free , and i will not let you that you stop me give my opinion in any topic that i will like give opinion.

You like soap opera, and is the reason why you've already been banned most often in debate forums inclusive in this same forum you show clear about ,you own formation like a person . See if you control yourself.

I'll repeat it again because it seems like you did not understand:
Your opinion is free as that of others, and respected as that of others but do not pass the limit of good education.


"Thanks for further qualifying yourself.  Did you notice that Nelson was putting mechanical energy from Mr. Hand into a piezo-electric spark generator taken from a cigarette lighter?  Perhaps that energy filled a capacitor until the voltage got high enough to trigger a Joule Thief circuit?  Or perhaps Nelson got a dose of RomeroUK sickness.  I get the feeling there is some poor guy in Kuala Lumpur that paid a few thousand dollars for a shoe box containing a Joule Thief circuit and every few months he stares at it.  That is not going to save the millions of people that starve to death each year."



Amazing ! Go on!  open a new topic and just reproduce if you able to do that is you best answer to you assure a good job work to anonymous masses like you say .

" You have no respect whatsoever for science and knowledge and experience and electronics"

But you don't have respect by anyone like all time you post in this forum .

If you don't have nothing more to add about the topic XAU

Have a nice day


 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 27, 2017, 07:13:28 AM
You are welcome MH.  I am done here also.  They apparently aren't at all interested in learning anything that might disturb their fantasies.  Some people just refuse to accept help.  I do wonder sometimes if the ones calling others the MIB or whatever are not really one of them themselves and are only here to lead others astray with their wild theories.

Citfta ,
" I just get frustrated with people that refuse to accept what are perfectly normal observations about something"

You don't need go frustrate , you are deal with persons that actually are able to decide the path to go by himself  don't get frustrated about that . 
No one refuse help for anyone, we already ear all opinions by the people that did not agree , but the respect fit in every time in ever place , and that not happen for sure  .

"..learning anything that might disturb their fantasies"
 what fantasies are you refer ?  I really don't understand that sentence could you explain me please the meaning of that ?

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Dog-One on March 27, 2017, 07:40:27 AM
Quote from: evostars
Thanks
good to now someone is listening  ::)

Most certainly.

Quote from: evostars
I will continue making my video's,  think for myself, listen to my heart, and do the work that needs to be done.

If you hit a wall, I'll remind you of that statement.    ;)

Quote from: evostars
I did expect the abc agency's to do their job. and look what happend, within  a week.

I always say if you are catching flak, could be you are over the target.
Maybe that sort of response is out of desperation.  If I was so smart and knew this
stuff inside and out, I would sit on the sideline and say to myself, "What are these
knuckleheads doing?"  But that isn't what's happening is it.  Could be a clue.


I do have something to add.  It may be useful to your experimenting; it may not,
but I'll PM it to you and Nelson to avoid another furball here in this thread.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 27, 2017, 11:31:20 AM
@nelsonrochaa  Hello Mr. Rocha,

my question is, if You would be willing  to sell the circuit scheme and know-how of your "Avesome Resonator (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmlpV1MWm40)" to this community - in solely anticipatory and nonbinding way in this moment? The transfer of know-how would probably involve the construction of few working prototypes for escrow agent(s). We would discuss the legal conditions and similar stuffs in specialized thread dedicated to this subject. I cannot promise, that such transaction would be feasible for both parties - but at least we can attempt for it and to broke the information barrier existing here.

Thank You for Your kind reply in advance

Zephir

Edit: See also Sirius Disclosure anouncement for free energy technologies (http://www.siriusdisclosure.com/100000-star-challenge-and-award)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on March 27, 2017, 12:37:31 PM
a·nom·a·ly
/əˈnäməlē/
noun
noun: anomaly; plural noun: anomalies
1. something that deviates from what is standard, normal, or expected.

here we search for anomalies ,TRUE anomalies.

which would hopefully lead to a pair of scissors to cut the power cable from the global warming or Global melting fuel sources,[Which we are currently fighting over to survive.

I don't believe Nelson can take the scissors to his power cable ?, but it would be good to qualify what this "anomaly" is ?
besides making people sick ? it is very easy to make people sick with improperly used  power levels in unshielded environments

unless Nelson refers to this kind of sick  ----https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geiger_counter .??

what is the claim of this Circuit ?

an "anomaly" or a Misunderstanding ??

 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 27, 2017, 01:11:15 PM
Quote
I don't believe Nelson can take the scissors to his power cable ?, but it would be good to qualify what this "anomaly" is
Not just this - it should demonstrate his device inside some Faraday/mesh cage.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 27, 2017, 01:36:46 PM
There exist four types of bifilar wound coils:1.Parallel- wound, series connected;2.Parallel-wound, parallel connected;3.Counter-wound, series connected;4.Counter-wound, parallel connected. For me the bifilar coil is this one  (http://i.imgur.com/GpKGTgJ.png): hairpin bifilar (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcFySCAxLzs). Such a coil would really have self-inductance suppressed (http://i.imgur.com/rRBvcov.gif).
This is actually bad thing for scalar wave physics and from this reason Tesla did use conical and bi-conical coils.

I wonder if you actually watched that video of mine which you so kindly linked. In that video I show that the hairpin bifilar winding does indeed have "self inductance suppressed", and this is perfectly reasonable when you consider the shape of the magnetic field around a conductor. It is not mysterious at all to anyone who has a grounding in ordinary physics. However that is NOT the Tesla Bifilar winding that we (some of us anyway) have been discussing and that most people who say "bifilar" are talking about. And it is the reason that I always, or nearly always, specify TESLA bifilar windings when I talk about these coils. But I see that even that doesn't succeed in avoiding confusion amongst a certain group of people. I urge you to re-read Tesla's patent 512340. Note that in Tesla's patent, two wires are parallel-wound and connected in series, but with the innermost end of one winding connected to the outermost end of the other winding. This is exactly the way my solenoidal bifilar coil is wound in the meter test I posted earlier, the only difference being that my coil is solenoidal and Tesla's (and those of some of the other experimenters posting here) are flat pancake coils. One huge reason that Tesla was using flat or conical primary coils was to get the outermost windings, or uppermost windings in the case of the conical coils, out of "reach" of the high voltage secondaries so that spark-over between the primary and secondary could not happen. This kind of sparkover is dangerous to personnel and equipment, as the spark is conductive and causes the low-frequency, high current primary to be "shorted" into the EHV, high frequency secondary.  It has nothing to do with "scalar wave physics" at all.

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pages/US512340-0.png
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 27, 2017, 01:53:17 PM
@nelsonrochaa  Hello Mr. Rocha,

my question is, if You would be willing  to sell the circuit scheme and know-how of your "Avesome Resonator (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmlpV1MWm40)" to this community - in solely anticipatory and nonbinding way in this moment? The transfer of know-how would probably involve the construction of few working prototypes for escrow agent(s). We would discuss the legal conditions and similar stuffs in specialized thread dedicated to this subject. I cannot promise, that such transaction would be feasible for both parties - but at least we can attempt for it and to broke the information barrier existing here.

Thank You for Your kind reply in advance

Zephir

Edit: See also Sirius Disclosure anouncement for free energy technologies (http://www.siriusdisclosure.com/100000-star-challenge-and-award)

Here's my "guesstimation". The circuit appears to be a relatively ordinary "JT" type of blocking oscillator, with pre-charged capacitor(s) that are actually powering the LEDs. Perhaps he is using large-capacity supercaps. The piezo lighter element sends an impulse, through the Neon bulb, to the circuit to "jumpstart" it but it is not running on the relatively small energy imparted by that spark impulse. I think I can actually see the LEDs dimming over the course of the video. Where is the instrumental measurement of LED brightness? Nowhere. Trying to judge LED brightness in a video or even by eye in the lab is very deceptive , but a lightmeter, properly used, will tell the truth about LED brightness and will show the dimming over time as the capacitors discharge.

A big wirewound power resistor? That's a big Red Herring for analyzing this Cargo Cult electronic circuit.

Of course Nelson can always Prove Me Wrong (tm TKLabs) by publishing the actual circuit and allowing others to replicate it and discuss it on this OPEN SOURCE forum. I won't be holding my breath waiting for that to happen though. "Open Source"... what a laugh that is, when people fail to respect that philosophy entirely.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 27, 2017, 01:56:50 PM
Not just this - it should demonstrate his device inside some Faraday/mesh cage.

If Nelson wanted to fool you with fakery, by perhaps using a wireless power transmitter concealed nearby his demonstration area, or concealed power sources on the board itself (like hollowed out electrolytic caps with their innards replaced with button cell batteries, Akula-style) don't you think he could do that even if his device was inside a mesh cage? I certainly could.

I don't think he is faking anything. I just think he is misinterpreting, deliberately or otherwise, what his circuits are actually doing.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 27, 2017, 02:11:26 PM
@nelsonrochaa  Hello Mr. Rocha,

my question is, if You would be willing  to sell the circuit scheme and know-how of your "Avesome Resonator (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmlpV1MWm40)" to this community - in solely anticipatory and nonbinding way in this moment? The transfer of know-how would probably involve the construction of few working prototypes for escrow agent(s). We would discuss the legal conditions and similar stuffs in specialized thread dedicated to this subject. I cannot promise, that such transaction would be feasible for both parties - but at least we can attempt for it and to broke the information barrier existing here.

Thank You for Your kind reply in advance

Zephir

Edit: See also Sirius Disclosure anouncement for free energy technologies (http://www.siriusdisclosure.com/100000-star-challenge-and-award)

Zephir ,

I already answer in the topic "solid state devices / Re: FE Device by 'Armored Train" that circuit is only a more efficient way to discharge a capacitor , go to that topic and read please , i answer to TK  in the context of that topic .
That circuit even not nice was made in 2014 with the parts that i able to salvage from garbage.

Again i will tell you that i don't sell anything to anyone , or even promote something to win money by viewers .
In this moment money is not my high problem , because i have my own salary .

I already reject several offers of money  by some members from this forum and until i have contract with my actual Patronage, i will continue do that .  I respect agreements, and my integrity as a person is worth more than money.
I already explain in PM to you , that in some days i have a Demonstration to a possible investor in Hamburg , and in that way is easy understand why i'm not available at moment to share any of my work in detail .

Hope i have clear once and for all about that subject , and we should not even be discussing this topic in this topic, right?

Cheers

Nelson Rocha

 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: AlienGrey on March 27, 2017, 02:22:29 PM
If Nelson wanted to fool you with fakery, by perhaps using a wireless power transmitter concealed nearby his demonstration area, or concealed power sources on the board itself (like hollowed out electrolytic caps with their innards replaced with button cell batteries, Akula-style) don't you think he could do that even if his device was inside a mesh cage? I certainly could.

I don't think he is faking anything. I just think he is misinterpreting, deliberately or otherwise, what his circuits are actually doing.
Perhaps, so as a matter of interest where did Roma (Akula) hide his car battery then, it must have been in another dimension then? Aren't we constantly being bombarded with plasma streams and charged particles from the Sun ? there is also the deception from corporate 'quackery' trying to halt the 'free' independence thing ect. which result in pressure on those in the 'know how to' area to 'doctor saboteur' this know how information. ;)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 27, 2017, 02:38:16 PM
If Nelson wanted to fool you with fakery, by perhaps using a wireless power transmitter concealed nearby his demonstration area, or concealed power sources on the board itself (like hollowed out electrolytic caps with their innards replaced with button cell batteries, Akula-style) don't you think he could do that even if his device was inside a mesh cage? I certainly could.

I don't think he is faking anything. I just think he is misinterpreting, deliberately or otherwise, what his circuits are actually doing.

TK i don't fool anyone , i don' t need do that , and that circuit don't have batteries too .

About you say "people fail to respect that philosophy entirely." don't give me moral lessons just start read this topic from begin and you will see what is fail to respect ;  myself full assume that i don't work in opensource and what ?
Is imperative  to i give some opinion or share my work in detail ? Where are that rules write ?

My work is nothing,  did you not read the last posts by MH ?  who cares with my "fantasies"  or with i think or i do  ?
I just light led and neon bulbs in my hand :)  and at the end is only a shoe box containing a Joule Thief lol.

You for example even i don't like you normal caustic way of talking , but you are a person that show and test to refute others , not like most , that are only in this forum trying probe one point without respect other opinions but never show  nothing  practical to refute others work  . but works to anonymous masses...

About i prove that you are wrong why i should do that ? Did i need to probe something to you ? For sure not , you are in much more high standard technician level then me in that area why i should probe something to you ?

You don't need really , because , You would most certainly be the right person to reproduce my circuits.
But you're not a fortune teller, and even with your know how, it's no good if you do not know what's going on, you can only assume, nothing more.

cheers

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 27, 2017, 02:42:18 PM
Perhaps, so as a matter of interest where did Roma (Akula) hide his car battery then, it must have been in another dimension then?
I don't know what Akula demonstration you are referring to, but if you give me a link I can take a look at it. But if you believe in Akula's self-powered devices what is to prevent you from believing that he could hide batteries in another dimension?

Quote
Aren't we constantly being bombarded with plasma streams and charged particles from the Sun ?

Fortunately for us, our atmosphere and our magnetic field protect us from by far the majority of the charged particles from the Sun, as well as the plasma streams. Not much reaches down to us here on the surface. There is far more energy available at or near ground level from photons in the visible and near-visible spectrum than there is from the solar wind. Do you believe that Akula's devices are powered by charged particles from the Sun? Well, maybe he charges his batteries/capacitors with solar panels using solar photons. Here in the city where I live, we get about 15 percent of our electricity from a giant solar PV farm just south of the city limits. And my state is the largest producer of wind power (also solar driven) in the USA.
Quote
there is also the deception from corporate 'quackery' trying to halt the 'free' independence thing ect. which result in pressure on those in the 'know how to' area to 'doctor saboteur' this know how information. ;)

Isn't it amazing, then, that dangerous forums like this are even allowed to exist? What would happen to the "corporations" if someone on EF or OU, or some other forum based in even more repressive societies like Russia or Georgia or Azerbaijan actually accidentally did make some self-runner that produced excess energy in useful form? Why is Akula even still allowed to work?  I know why, and I think you do too.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 27, 2017, 02:50:56 PM
Quote
I just light led and neon bulbs in my hand (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/smiley.gif (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/smiley.gif))

So do I.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Cv4XF4FV6w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULDh8sTc8Kw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULDh8sTc8Kw)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeQ5WnziKBA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeQ5WnziKBA)


.. and I set the air on fire, too:
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 27, 2017, 02:54:14 PM
So do I.

http://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=3Cv4XF4FV6w
http://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=ULDh8sTc8Kw

.. and I set the air on fire, too:



Lol , maybe you will ear the same by MH just like he tell me  , You should maybe  not have shown that :)

Nice


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCrkICEUiQQ
cheers
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 27, 2017, 03:54:27 PM
Yes, very nice. I try to avoid punching holes in my bulbs though.  ;)

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 27, 2017, 04:49:18 PM
Quote
Perhaps, so as a matter of interest where did Roma (Akula) hide his car battery then, it must have been in another dimension then? Aren't we constantly being bombarded with plasma streams and charged particles from the Sun ? there is also the deception from corporate 'quackery' trying to halt the 'free' independence thing ect. which result in pressure on those in the 'know how to' area to 'doctor saboteur' this know how information
.
This is the same story: if you don't believe in overunity, what are waiting for here?
Quote from: Nelson Rocha
I already answer in the topic "solid state devices / Re: FE Device by 'Armored Train" that circuit is only a more efficient way to discharge a capacitor
After then I don't understand Your story about Japanese company, which you allegedly sold this circuit for few thousands Euro... ;-)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 27, 2017, 05:10:31 PM
I'm in an Internet kiosk because my 5th straight laptop froze up from a fatal Overunity virus. My last comment was 6 pages ago because the kiosk was closed on Sunday. I did the magnet strength test on both the single wire and serial coils and both lifted the same number of Hex nuts. This comes as no surprise due to the identical inductance.

However, as I pointed out, the serial bifilar generates a spontaneous gain while in self resonance when coupled to a ferrite core resulting in a magnetizing effect.

Secondly, and more importantly, I described the magnet wave induction grid where incresed voltage, transformed from a large storage battery, can instantly match the load. This beats running a coal fired generator at full tilt to feed amperage into the grid.

The longitudinal magnet wave is the transverse wave traveling sideways. Power can be moved faster and more efficiently by way of magnetic induction, then by sending sinusoidal electricy through a conductor end to end.

Eric Dollard is trying to isolate specific XM Sirius type frequencies to allow for billing consumers from a Wardenclyffe transmitter.
Skycollection's layered bifilars in self resonance can be buried underground and carry power by magnetisem instead of electricity. A much more efficient grid.     
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 27, 2017, 06:34:05 PM
.
...about Japanese company, which you allegedly sold this circuit for few thousands Euro... ;-)


Hi Zephir ,
Is not Japanese but South Korean  company , and i not allegedly sell , i sell in very real business € :)  .

What you don't understand ?  I tell you i'm PM that i sold it in 2014 and after that i start work to a German company where i work at present time in energy alternative field  , i know my English is not the best , but i think most able to understand .
If you want say something more , ask me in PM i don't need expose myself to others .

cheers

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 28, 2017, 12:18:11 AM
Dr. Myrl's video lecture series involves calculating the optimal spacing between serial bifilar pancake transmitter and reciever coils.

"The Old Scientist" ends his video series with two flag poles in the picture. Skycollection has his bifilar pancakes closer to each other then necessary.

A good place for them would be atop Elon Musk's "Hyper-Loop; Not only could they supply power to the levitaion tracks, but they could continue to transfer the leftover power over a long distance say from Las Vegas to Los Angeles, to help feed the grid in the megalópolis.   
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 28, 2017, 10:17:37 AM
It's a slow news day on the thread so I whipped up a graphic.  I am doing it because I am pretty sure that there are many pancake coil enthusiasts out there that may have not considered all of the magnetic field and magnetic flux self-cancellation that occurs in a pancake coil.

The graphic shows any two arbitrary current loops in a pancake coil.  The blue loop is the inner loop and the red loop is the outer loop.  The graphic represents what is taking place in the plane of the pancake coil.

As you can see, between any two arbitrary current loops in the pancake coil, there is a yellow area of flux cancellation.  The fine purple line represents were the net magnetic field is zero.

I suppose the moral of the story is that if you are doing some basic experiments with coils and trying to figure out how they work, you are probably better of just making a standard cylindrical coil first.  Do some tests on that coil to understand its transient characteristics, its DC characteristics, and its AC characteristics.  Learn how the coil discharges through a resistive load.  Measure the L/R time constant using your scope.  Derive the value of the inductance from the L/R time constant.  Then measure the frequency of an LC resonator using your scope.  Derive the value of the inductance from the resonator frequency.  Then compare your inductance measurement using the time constant, the resonance frequency, and with an LC meter if you have one.  Learn and understand how the coil produces high-voltage spikes because it acts like a current source when it discharges.  It's not "radiant energy," that is just nonsensical fantasy talk.  Experiment with your standard cylindrical coil and understand how it ticks.

Then, go make yourself a pancake coil and go through the same exercise with the pancake coil.  You are going to discover that the pancake coil works in exactly the same way as the cylindrical coil.  You should see that for about the same amount of wire, a cylindrical coil gives you more inductance.

Then after doing that, enter the fabled and mysterious realm of self-resonance for the coil.  This is where the coil is failing to function as a coil anymore.  In essence, it is the same thing as making a conventional LC resonator using a discrete inductor and capacitor.  So, you have a coil self-resonating at a very high frequency with its own self-capacitance.  It represents a tiny energy storage resonator that will discharge almost instantly.  Does it have any practical value at all?  Personally, I can't think of one myself.  I view a self-resonating coil as a coil that is no longer working and instead its having a kind of epileptic seizure.  The coil only functions properly as a coil below the self-resonance frequency.  At the self-resonance frequency it's kind of useless.

Again, before you even approach studying the self-resonance of a coil, you should do the tests I outlined above and fully understand them and have a complete mastery of how a coil works.  A coil is equivalent to a mechanical flywheel in just about any way you can think of.  If you fully understand how a coil works and presumably you already intuitively understand how a mechanical flywheel works, you should be able to go back and forth between the electrical model for inductance and the mechanical model for inductance with no difficulty at all.

What i say above is the real deal and it would be a worthwhile exercise for anybody that wants to understand how a coil actually works.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on March 28, 2017, 11:19:38 AM
Thanks for the clear explanation MH.  I have used your analogy of a coil and flywheel several times times since you first told me about it several years ago.  Most people understand that analogy better than the conventional explanation.  The only exception seems to be the ones that stubbornly stick to the idea that the current reverses when the coil discharges.  For some people there is no hope they will ever learn.

Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 28, 2017, 11:20:22 AM
Quote
I outlined above and fully understand them and have a complete mastery of how a coil work
It would be great, because we all really need to understand it. The plain saying that it corresponds mechanical flywheel doesn't explain it very much - what rotates there? Note that large bifilar coil is merely symmetrical with respect to current flow in it. How the direction of rotation is defined for it after then? Why the zones pictured are formed along pancake coil? And has it something with overunity?
Quote
that stubbornly stick to the idea that the current reverses when the coil discharges
Normal coil "discharges" when the current is reversed (in similar way, like the capacitor - just the voltage/current phase is different). So, why the pancake coil should be an exception and when it gets discharged after then?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on March 28, 2017, 11:46:59 AM
Hi Zephir,

If you really want to know what happens when a coil discharges here is a whole thread devoted to investigating that action.  There are some scope shots clearly showing what happens.

http://overunity.com/16203/inductive-kickback/

Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 28, 2017, 01:08:17 PM
When the normal coil discharges, then the current travels in opposite way than during charging. I don't need to read whole thread about it, because it's commonly known situation. From this reason I'm just interested, why are you implying, that the pancake bifilar coil behaves differently.  Why the people shouldn't stick to the idea that the current reverses when the coil discharges?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 28, 2017, 01:41:37 PM
Insert facepalm character here.    :-\
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: web000x on March 28, 2017, 01:43:08 PM
Insert facepalm character here.    :-\


I too was once dyslexic about that which reversed in a discharging coil.......
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on March 28, 2017, 01:55:17 PM
I never said the pancake coil was different.  If you would read the thread you would understand that the current DOES NOT reverse when a coil discharges.  That is true for any coil whether pancake, bilifer or any other configuration.  The idea of the current reversing apparently comes from people that get their education from YouTube.  I know of no one that has actually worked in electronics that believes the current reverses when a coil discharges.  The analogy of a flywheel holds true because the very definition of an inducter is that it resists any change in current flow just like a flywheel resists any change in rpm.  I am not going to rehash that whole thread in this post.  Read it and learn or ignore  it.  The choice of course is yours.  I was just offering you a source of experiments and observations to help you.

Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 28, 2017, 04:08:43 PM
Quote
the current DOES NOT reverse when a coil discharges.  That is true for any coil whether pancake, biflifar or any other configuration
OK - but at least the voltage of the opposite sign appears at the coil, once its magnetic field collapses. When the circuit is still closed, then the current of reversed polarity emerges in circuit. After all, it's visible easily in every circuit simulator, which traces current in circuit visually. Magnetic field is oriented - so that the charged coil remembers the direction of the original current, which created the flux.

You're pointing to situation, when the state of circuit also changes during collapse of circuit, for example during disconnecting the already energized coil from circuit - but this is special case. In steady state conditions of coil permanently connected into a circuit without active elements (diode, etc.) and similar exceptions the current following the collapse of magnetic field around coil will always have the opposite polarity, than the current, which created this field.

In hydrodynamic analogy the inductance of coil corresponds the behavior of hose with elastic walls. The introduction of current (i.e. hydrodynamic flow) leads to formation of  pressure drop due to inertia of fluid inside the hose. This pressure difference expands the hose a bit, so it accumulates the energy into itself. Once the pressure gets released at one end, then the accumulated fluid becomes ejected from hose in opposite direction. This model looks stupid, but it can illustrate even complex phenomena, like the skin-effect, which occurs in conductors during fast changes of flow direction. Because of inertia of fluid in the bulk of hose, the hose is forced to expand and collapse repeatedly so that the flow concentrates at the thin surface layer of hose only - and the interior of hose doesn't move.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on March 28, 2017, 04:24:24 PM
https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-current-direction-change-when-an-inductor-discharges
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 28, 2017, 04:41:54 PM
Quote
I know of no one that has actually worked in electronics that believes the current reverses when a coil discharges.
Actually you're the very first person, who I know he believes in opposite... :-) For example the very existence of oscillations within resonance circuits illustrates, that the current reverses during collapse of magnetic field within coil (the capacitor and coils charge and discharge mutually during it). How did you got into the opposite?

Edit: From Quora link (https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-current-direction-change-when-an-inductor-discharges) above given it seems, it's because of semantic fuzziness in application of the back electromotive force.  This force always acts in the opposite direction to the existing current, as its name ("BACK") implies. I.e. it decreases the existing current while the existing current still runs in the original direction. Once the original current doesn't change, then the inductor doesn't actually discharge, because it's magnetic field didn't collapse yet. Now it just depends, which current do you actually have on mind, when you talk  about collapsing field within coil: the original one - or this new one, induced with change of collapsing magnetic field.

At any case, once you believe, that the behavior of pancake bifilar coil doesn't actually differ from normal inductor, then the discussion of this semantic isn't interesting for me. What is interesting for me is the explanation of the role of bifilar coils in overunity circuits. And such an explanation must differ from description of normal solenoid coil, which is  behaving in classical way with respect to energy conservation law. Normal coil conserves the energy of magnetic field induced in it and it returns it back - but it never returns more than input. Once the bifilar coil returns more, it just means we missed some important piece in description of its electromagnetic field.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 28, 2017, 05:24:19 PM
There ARE NO "overunity circuits" !!! Using pancake, Tesla bifilar, solenoidal, multilayer or any other kind of coils, stimulated in any way at all. NONE.

And the behaviour of LC circuits, where energy is exchanged between the magnetic field in the inductor and the electric field in the capacitor, is an entirely different kettle of fish than the simple issue of which direction current flows during the inductor _discharge_.

It is easy to prove that the current does not reverse during inductor discharge, as many people have tried to tell you.

May I suggest that you set up your own experiment, perform it and report the details and results here.

I can explain why the misconception of current reversal likely happens but it would require me to lift a finger or two to draw some diagrams, and frankly, I already know that none of the "believers" will be convinced by anything other than performing their OWN well-thought-out and properly conducted experiments, and maybe not even then.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 28, 2017, 05:41:39 PM
Quote
There ARE NO "overunity circuits" !!! Using pancake, Tesla bifilar, solenoidal, multilayer or any other kind of coils, stimulated in any way at all. NONE.

Except that the YouTube and many forums are full of them. We can for example ask Nelson Rocha what he thinks about it - he already got nice money for it and he isn't still prosecuted as a cheater. So that one can be sure, that people who did pay him (and another ones, who are still paying him for similar project) aren't idiots. IMO you're just getting jealous about it and you're upset, that you weren't successful with it yet. You're not the first guy, who is behaving in the same way here. The people with highest number of posts are just these ones most frustrated with their effort.

Another question is, what the people who don't believe that overunity exist are looking for at just overunity forum? There are so many other forums, much better suited for their orientation - why they're visiting just this one? Why just the people with highest number of posts are most opposing the overunity here? Why they're wasting their time like this? Such a people are suspicious for me automatically, because they don't apparently do what they claim they believe in. Once the people don't do what they believe, then the money or struggle for power are usually involved. Are they agents of fossil fuel lobby, mainstream science trolls or what? At any case, such a people are diluting/polluting all overunity discussions being OT automatically. If you don't like cats, you shouldn't post in forums about cats, because this forum is designed for people favoring and interested about cats. Of course, it's possible you're liking dogs more and this is normal - why not. But after then you should visit forum about dogs - or you're not normal anymore.

Every strange behavior has its hidden reason. At any case, I tend to ignore the opinion of people, who don't act according to their own words and proclamations. Or better to say, I tend to believe in exactly the opposite of what they're telling me.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: partzman on March 28, 2017, 07:16:18 PM
There ARE NO "overunity circuits" !!! Using pancake, Tesla bifilar, solenoidal, multilayer or any other kind of coils, stimulated in any way at all. NONE.

[snip]


Errr TK,  I have to respectively disagree with you based on my own research and development in magneto electric induction using so called pancake coils.  Attached is a scope pix of a device consisting of vertical pcb coils in a circuit that was actually posted on the "Partnered Output Coil" thread on this forum.  I have not disclosed all the circuit details but essentially great care was taken in both circuit elements and the measurement techniques due to the frequencies involved.

Basically, CH1(yel) is the input pulse from an Ixys high speed fet driver, CH2(blu) is the voltage measured across a 1 ohm 1% Caddock non-inductive film resistor that monitors the current drawn from the driver pulse, CH3(pnk) is the voltage across a 50 ohm 1% Caddock non-inductive film resistor used as the output load, and the Math channel(red) is the product of CH1 x CH2 resulting in the mean input power.

As can be seen, the input power drawn from the input pulse is 88.52mw ( the 88.52mVV seen is the result of the product of two voltages but the voltage across the 1 ohm sense resistor represents the actual current so the real product is mw).  The output power is (2.72^2)/50 = 148mw rms for a COP = 1.67.  There are many variations of this circuitry all utilizing pancake coils with some actually able to reach higher COPs.

Regards,
pm

Edit: Otherwise, I agree with what you are saying!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 28, 2017, 08:12:53 PM
Partzman:

I find it hard to believe that you are not questioning your data.  The period of the pulse train is about 260 nanoseconds.  You are sampling at 2.5 GHz.  One nanosecond corresponds to one gigahertz.  So you have about 650 samples per period of the pulse train.  That sounds half-decent but look at the high-frequency ringing in your waveforms.  They are barely being sampled enough to give me confidence that you are not accumulating errors.  Plus all of your conversion on these scopes is a rough 8-bits, right?  There is another source of error.

Now, are the sampling errors and very possible subsampling errors and the quantization errors all supposed to average out and cancel each other out?  I think that might be the case but only if your trigger event time is random.  But if you are triggering on the falling edge of the square wave I am not sure if that is the case.  For example, the trigger might be synchronous enough with the waveform such that you get consistent subsampling errors on the very high frequency ringing that is in one direction only.

Now, I am no metrology expert by any means.  But let me just throw this idea out at you.  It's probably not the best way to do it with the current state of the art, but I think that at least the principles I will state are sound.

For all I know the input power or the power supplied to the device under test could be accurately measured with a Clarke Hess power meter but I don't know anything about them so I will go the analog route.  Presumably you can make a very accurate measurement of the capacitance of a large capacitor bank.  I have seen Luc's amazing volt meter with five digits of precision after the decimal point.  So suppose that you will run an experiment for 10 minutes where the energy provided to the device under test comes from a large capacitor bank that discharges from say six volts to say five volts, all measured with five digits of precision after the decimal point.   So we will presume that you have a quite accurate measurement of the energy supplied to the device under test.

I am going to assume that you can measure the ON resistance of the Ixys high speed fet driver circuit and make an accurate measurement of how much energy is burnt off in the switching circuit over the 10-minute test.  I am going to assume that the net energy delivered to the device under test is the supplied capacitor bank energy minus the switching circuit energy.

So for the output energy you have a special closed test tube with embedded electrical contacts so you can make a nice clean connection to the 50 ohm 1% Caddock non-inductive film resistor which is sitting in a precise amount of mineral oil.  You know the thermal capacity of the test tube to very high accuracy.  You know the thermal capacity of the mineral oil to very high accuracy.  Naturally the test tube is sitting in some kind of professional-grade insulated box.

So you run the test for the ten minutes, then take out the test tube and lightly agitate it for five seconds, the wait another five seconds, and then take an accurate temperature reading of the test tube.  Then crunch the numbers from the temperature difference, and the thermal capacity of the test tube, the oil, and the resistor, and determine the thermal energy.

Do ten runs like that with all of the required error bars and see what you get.  If you saw over unity like that, then at least two other competent individuals with the proper equipment would have to replicate your results.  Then there might be something interesting going on.

Just my two cents worth.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 28, 2017, 08:27:34 PM
It has no meaning to speculate about overunity from oscilloscope data. The self-looped demo is the only thing which counts there.

Edit: Otherwise, I agree with what you are saying! ;)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on March 28, 2017, 09:39:22 PM
Thanks for the clear explanation MH.  I have used your analogy of a coil and flywheel several times times since you first told me about it several years ago.  Most people understand that analogy better than the conventional explanation.  The only exception seems to be the ones that stubbornly stick to the idea that the current reverses when the coil discharges.  For some people there is no hope they will ever learn.

Carroll

@Citfa,

I have a quote from you on my "flyback current reversal" thread over at Energetic Fórum as Allen Burgess, where you impudently state that current runs in one direction and one direction only in the Ruhmkopf coil secondary. Do you still cling to that outrageous and pig-headed claim?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 28, 2017, 10:17:45 PM
@Partzman:
I know you have a lot of experience in these matters, so I am also, along with MH, surprised that you are not questioning your scope's "numbers in boxes". What happens if you apply some low-pass filtering to the signals before you do the math? Does your "overunity" result reside solely in the spikes and ringing? If so, does that tell you anything significant?

I have scope traces (on high-end Tek and LeCroy oscilloscopes to boot) from absolutely positively known-to-be underunity circuitry that also "show" overunity results; specifically, a _decreasing_ energy integral over time. I can haz cheezburger now?

It's really too bad that we can't run anything on pretty coloured wiggly lines. However, if you can do the elementary calorimetry experiment that MH has outlined, and obtain a string of positive results, it would carry a lot more weight than your scopeshot.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 28, 2017, 10:19:54 PM
@Citfa,

I have a quote from you on my "flyback current reversal" thread over at Energetic Fórum as Allen Burgess, where you impudently state that current runs in one direction and one direction only in the Ruhmkopf coil secondary. Do you still cling to that outrageous and pig-headed claim?

So... you are EF's Allen Burgess? That explains a lot, for sure. You get yet another ROFL, and nobody will ever look at your posts here in quite the same light again.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: partzman on March 28, 2017, 11:24:37 PM
@ MH, TK, Zephir,

Yeah, you guys are right!  Only a fool would rely on stupid scope measurements and I wanna know, how do these guys at Tektronix sleep at night?

pm
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 28, 2017, 11:34:17 PM
@ MH, TK, Zephir,

Yeah, you guys are right!  Only a fool would rely on stupid scope measurements and I wanna know, how do these guys at Tektronix sleep at night?

pm

Lol :)  Nowadays we are arrested for having and not having.
If you do not show them any shot scope, they would ask for those same shot scope ...

Then they will say that it needs to be validated by people competent for this work ... I can only think of someone with enough knowledge to do this validation, MH or TK Team marvel. or should i call cheezburger team ?

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 29, 2017, 01:29:49 AM
@ MH, TK, Zephir,

Yeah, you guys are right!  Only a fool would rely on stupid scope measurements and I wanna know, how do these guys at Tektronix sleep at night?

pm

I am surprised at the sarcasm in your reply.  For starters, an inductor does not give you OU so why should a pancake coil give you OU?  Your apparent results are easily verifiable with calorimetry considering you are quoting a COP of 1.67.

I reached way back into my memory from my numerical analysis course and the way to compensate for sampling and quantization errors is to use true random sampling of a waveform.  There is a general area of study with many useful applications called "Monte Carlo methods."

Here is a link about using Monte Carlo methods for calculating an integral with discrete samples:

https://www.scratchapixel.com/lessons/mathematics-physics-for-computer-graphics/monte-carlo-methods-in-practice/monte-carlo-integration

Quote:

As you may remember, the integral of a function f(x) can be interpreted as calculating the area below the function's curve. This idea is illustrated in figure 1. Now imagine that we just pick up a random value, say x in the range [a,b], evaluate the function f(x) at x and multiply the result by (b-a). Figure 2 shows what the result looks like: it's another rectangle (where f(x) is the height of that rectangle and (b-a) its width), which in a way you can also look at a very crude approximation of the area under the curve. Of couse we maybe get it more or less right. If we evaluate the function at x1 (figure 3) we quite drastically underestimate this area. If we evaluate the function at x2, we over estimate the area. But as we keep evaluating the function at different random points between a and b, adding up the area of the rectangles and averaging the sum, the resulting number gets closer and closer to the actual result of the integral. It's not surprising in a way as the rectangles which are too large compensate for the rectangles which are too small. And in fact, we will soon give the proof that summing them up and averaging their areas actually converges to the integral "area" as the number of samples used in the calculation increases. This idea is illustrated in the following figure. The function was evaluated in four different locations. The result of the function as these four values of x randomly chosen, are then multiplied by (b-a), summed up and averaged (we divide the sum by 4). The result can be considered as an approximation of the actual integral.

I seriously doubt your DSO is using Monte Carlo methods and since you are in pretty grainy territory the confidence that your measurement is OU is very low.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 29, 2017, 02:25:01 AM
The oscilloscope is great until you're tinkering and if you need to find a working point of transistor or resonance frequency of circuit - but once you claim overunity, then the self-looped (self-running) circuit cannot beat any preliminary test. The power measurements are notoriously unreliable due to (displacement) power factor poorly defined at high frequencies, crosstalks of signal into scope probe and so on..

Quote
an inductor does not give you OU so why should a pancake coil give you OU

Because the pancake coil has the evanescent scalar wave phenomena enhanced - whereas the normal inductors have them suppressed. The tunneling of EM (http://www.nature.com/news/2000/000530/full/news000601-5.html) wave through evanescent field (http://cds.cern.ch/record/547324/files/0204043.pdf) runs with superluminal speed (https://arxiv.org/abs/0708.0681), whereas EM wave in classical circuits always propagates with speed of light or lower. The overunity is extradimensional, normal causality violating effect in essence and the normal spreading of EM waves along conductors cannot achieve it.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 29, 2017, 02:42:16 AM
Lol :)  Nowadays we are arrested for having and not having.
If you do not show them any shot scope, they would ask for those same shot scope ...

Then they will say that it needs to be validated by people competent for this work ... I can only think of someone with enough knowledge to do this validation, MH or TK Team marvel. or should i call cheezburger team ?

Nelson Rocha

Well, thanks for the sarcastic comment stating that I must possess enough knowledge.

Do you remember saying this?

like you told   "Sorry, but I personally have very low confidence in TheOldScientist" i feel exactly the same in relation to you .

Did you read the thread about understanding coil discharges that Carroll linked to?

http://overunity.com/16203/inductive-kickback/ (http://overunity.com/16203/inductive-kickback/)

Did you see how hard I worked to help other people in that thread?  Did you see how I offered multiple explanations to help people understand?  I must be such a terrible person, eh Nelson?  On a side note, I looked through that thread again and when I read it I recalled good old Luc calling me a "troll" a few months ago.   He deserves a swift kick in the ass for saying that.

And in this thread I have read many really nasty and ugly ad hominem attacks from you against me.  In case you don't know what that means, let me remind you:

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

And I have read lots of straw man arguments from you about me.  In case you don't know what that means, let me remind you:

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".

The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and the subsequent refutation of that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the opponent's proposition.


I have asked you to back up your technical claims with logical arguments and you have never done it once.  I am operating on the assumption that you are a beginner and you simply were unable to back up your technical claims.  You simply said those things because they are "buzz phrases" that beginning amateur experimenters use all the time.

So, going forward, I welcome any contribution to this thread by you.  But I don't want any more ad hominem attacks on me, nor do I want any straw man arguments being made about me, nor do I want any fake technical claims being made by you that you can't back up with logical arguments.  Does that sound reasonable?

If the subject matter is above your technical level, then try to learn, keep your hands in your pockets, relax, and watch the blinking lights.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 29, 2017, 02:47:21 AM
Because the pancake coil has the evanescent scalar wave phenomena enhanced - whereas the normal inductors have them suppressed. The tunneling of EM (http://www.nature.com/news/2000/000530/full/news000601-5.html) wave through evanescent field (http://cds.cern.ch/record/547324/files/0204043.pdf) runs with superluminal speed (https://arxiv.org/abs/0708.0681), whereas EM wave in classical circuits always propagates with speed of light or lower. The overunity is extradimensional effect in essence and the spreading of EM waves along conductors cannot achieve it.

Before you get into your esoterica I suggest that you read the thread that Carroll linked to and try to understand how a coil discharges.  The dawning of the Age of Aquarius is going to have to wait.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on March 29, 2017, 03:18:13 AM
MileHigh,

I love that sign!  We used to have one just like it on one of the beam welders I used to work on.  You gave me a nice laugh posting that.  I saved it so I can put it up in my shop.

Thanks,
Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 29, 2017, 03:25:08 AM
Carroll:

Freie Energie bald oder sterben!   ;D
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 29, 2017, 04:38:44 AM
@ MH, TK, Zephir,

Yeah, you guys are right!  Only a fool would rely on stupid scope measurements and I wanna know, how do these guys at Tektronix sleep at night?

pm

I must say, dear Partzman, that I am both surprised and unsurprised by your attitude.

Clearly, "those guys at Tektronix" (the scientists, I mean, not the mere engineers) would be scrambling all over themselves to confirm, by other methods, a measurement that indicated some anomaly like more _energy_ out than in. I believe they even sell advanced power measurement software packages for their high-end scopes, and I'm quite sure they have access to stand-alone broadband power analyzers, and might even resort to calorimetry as MH outlined -- since a Nobel Prize is at stake. However when someone makes valid suggestions to you to try to attain Concurrent Validity (a technical term, look it up) for your claims of OU based on a scopetrace, you resist it and respond with this kind of sarcasm. I'm surprised at that because I know something of your background and I would have expected more of a truly scientific attitude from you.

On the other hand I am not surprised, because it is very common in this field of research (sic) for a person to latch onto some bit of data, however sketchy, that appears to _confirm_ his dearly-held hypotheses, to the exclusion of all criticism, and to avoid performing any kind of experiment that even has the potential for falsifying them. This tendency even has a name and is rather well-studied by experimental and social psychologists: Confirmation Bias.

A real scientist, aware of the danger of Confirmation Bias and the need for Concurrent Validity, would be doing everything in his power to _disprove_ his own hypotheses by performing appropriate control experiments, and in addition would be seeking as much concurrent validity as possible by performing alternate tests and measurements, like calorimetry and using broadband power analyzers and even, heaven and the PTB forbid, attempting self-looping.

Certainly a _real_ COP of 1.6 should be sufficient to overcome inevitable losses in the "non-OU" parts of an electronic or electromechanical circuit to enable self-looping or daisy-chaining with power left over to run an external load of some kind. My own hypothetical threshold for this is a COP of a mere 1.3. But since nobody has seen fit to provide _me_ with a demonstration apparatus that truly produces any excess _energy_ over and above that required to run it, I have no experimental proof that a self looper can be attained at a COP of 1.3.

You are right about one thing, though: Only a fool would rely _solely_ on "stupid scope measurements" for a claim like this.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 29, 2017, 08:03:39 AM
Well, thanks for the sarcastic comment stating that I must possess enough knowledge.

Do you remember saying this?

Did you read the thread about understanding coil discharges that Carroll linked to?

http://overunity.com/16203/inductive-kickback/ (http://overunity.com/16203/inductive-kickback/)

Did you see how hard I worked to help other people in that thread?  Did you see how I offered multiple explanations to help people understand?  I must be such a terrible person, eh Nelson?  On a side note, I looked through that thread again and when I read it I recalled good old Luc calling me a "troll" a few months ago.   He deserves a swift kick in the ass for saying that.

And in this thread I have read many really nasty and ugly ad hominem attacks from you against me.  In case you don't know what that means, let me remind you:

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

And I have read lots of straw man arguments from you about me.  In case you don't know what that means, let me remind you:

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".

The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and the subsequent refutation of that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the opponent's proposition.


I have asked you to back up your technical claims with logical arguments and you have never done it once.  I am operating on the assumption that you are a beginner and you simply were unable to back up your technical claims.  You simply said those things because they are "buzz phrases" that beginning amateur experimenters use all the time.

So, going forward, I welcome any contribution to this thread by you.  But I don't want any more ad hominem attacks on me, nor do I want any straw man arguments being made about me, nor do I want any fake technical claims being made by you that you can't back up with logical arguments.  Does that sound reasonable?

If the subject matter is above your technical level, then try to learn, keep your hands in your pockets, relax, and watch the blinking lights.

MileHigh


“There are only four types of people in the world regarding discovery and invention:
The most common are those who watch and observe, and profit from invention and discovery; are intrigued by its discoveries.
The second most common are those who dissuade others from invention and discovery, and try to prevent them both mentally and
physically from discovery claiming: ‘this can lead to nowhere’, or ‘that course is a dead end, there is nothing there.’
The third most common are greedy and lustful inventors who desire only fame, profit, and acclaim, nothing matters but any angle that
can be exploited to be used to exploit others for their own ends. Discovery is not an ends to these people, only a means to exploit
others.
The fourth, and most rare are those who do not care about the first three types of people; these rare few have a vision or visions and
are hell-bent to uncover the mysteries of the universe, not out of desire for profit or fame or empirical motives, but the only pure,
noble, and righteous intent, that being pure discovery and understanding as its own ends. The expansion of comprehension and wisdom”
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 29, 2017, 09:58:22 AM
Your quote leaves one type out of course. The type you left out includes people who actually do know better and who point out the mistakes and false claims and even fraudulent hoaxes that the other types are too blind or biased or prejudiced or simply ignorant to see for themselves. This type you so conveniently left out can save, and has saved, millions and untold millions of dollars by vetting claims and allowing investors who are not specialists or scientists to save their money, time and creative juices for better projects that may actually have a chance of coming to fruition.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on March 29, 2017, 11:00:55 AM
Hmmm
the problem is intuition ,that nagging feeling your missing something really simple...

Milehigh posted an image of natives who saw a plane fly over and they made one out of grass thinking they could then fly too.
maybe they should make a lightning bolt ??

for a very long time we have been bombarded with energy 24/7 365 ...for ever actually [our ever]
it is jumping from the atmosphere in lightening bolts everywhere on the planet....

its so dangerous it could easily kill us....

yeah we're missing something, ...could it be as Wesley mentions ??  a simple electrostatic pump
a pump which summons lightning bolts ??

or maybe it hides in plain site in the Atom's ??

 Every single thing around us seems to be powered at the "atomic level" FOR EVER
and we're told "so what"....have you ever seen the picture of what happens if you split one of these atoms which can run for ever ??
YEASH.... !!!

And then there's the sun..it  pounds 1200 watts per meter onto the planet ....
and we're sitting on a MONSTEROUS spinning magnet...
and there is much much more....

IMO anybody who feels we have learned all there is to learn about harvesting energy on this DYNAMO of an arcing sparking planet
we inhabit [which is entirely composed of these Atom things [YIKES]

anybody who feels we know all there is to know about energy harvesting here.???

should stick to building Grass Planes  drinking beer and writing silly poems....


yeah we're definitely missing something really really simple here...

in the mean time be careful of the lightning bolts around your grass planes....and be careful with those Atom's too...

But I have to agree with Tinsel on the "not wasting time" or  other peoples Time...open source has one big advantage...
finding out the truth and vetting claims saves people time .[which is what Milehigh and others try to do]

but that requires Open source disclosure....

so as Tinsel says

""saving time and creative juices for better projects that may actually have a chance of coming to fruition.""
---------------------------------




RE Partzman and his claims ,
its not his first summer !
 Partzman practices Brutal honesty and we have all seen this many times [if you have payed attention]

he is a man of integrity and a huge asset to this OPEN SOURCE community...as are others here...

quite certain there will be more to come there ...good or bad it will be the truth....

respectfully
Chet K






Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 29, 2017, 11:04:47 AM

“There are only four types of people in the world regarding discovery and invention:
The most common are those who watch and observe, and profit from invention and discovery; are intrigued by its discoveries.
The second most common are those who dissuade others from invention and discovery, and try to prevent them both mentally and
physically from discovery claiming: ‘this can lead to nowhere’, or ‘that course is a dead end, there is nothing there.’
The third most common are greedy and lustful inventors who desire only fame, profit, and acclaim, nothing matters but any angle that
can be exploited to be used to exploit others for their own ends. Discovery is not an ends to these people, only a means to exploit
others.
The fourth, and most rare are those who do not care about the first three types of people; these rare few have a vision or visions and
are hell-bent to uncover the mysteries of the universe, not out of desire for profit or fame or empirical motives, but the only pure,
noble, and righteous intent, that being pure discovery and understanding as its own ends. The expansion of comprehension and wisdom”
+1
Who's quote is that? I've seen it before.
Im guessing, Eric p Dollard

edit: 200th reply!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on March 29, 2017, 11:50:06 AM
Carroll:

Freie Energie bald oder sterben!   ;D

Yes!

Although my last name is German and I am half German, I don't speak it, so I had to look that up.  LOL  :)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Grumage on March 29, 2017, 12:20:42 PM
Hmmm.

I see the OU Police are back on the beat.

Better pack up those gadgets and gizmos guys lest you get caught by a Cop>1!

 ;)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 29, 2017, 12:46:27 PM
Hmmm.

I see the OU Police are back on the beat.

Better pack up those gadgets and gizmos guys lest you get caught by a Cop>1!

 ;)

Well, we have seen people on this thread and others, making claims and assertions that are demonstrably wrong and easily refuted, and other wild claims that have no experimental support at all and are at odds with conventional physics. And I'm not talking about Partzman or Nelson here, who indeed belong to different categories.
 
Would you prefer that these false claims and unsupported "theorizing" go unchallenged and unrefuted, so they can filter down and corrupt the thinking of well-intentioned but naive persons who may not know any better? 

Suppose somebody told you that you could take an old one-lunger, connect it to a flywheel and a generator made from a rewound washing machine motor, and use its output to electrolyze water (with a pinch of pixie dust and a special pulse circuit of course) and run the engine solely from the gas generated? Would you drop everything else you are doing and rush out to your shed and start welding up frames and bolting parts together, and start encouraging others to do the same? Or would you shake your head and make a post or two to point out the fundamental errors in the claim?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Grumage on March 29, 2017, 01:03:13 PM
'Twas a bit of light hearted humour, nothing more.

Grab another coffee, it's early where you are!

                              :)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 29, 2017, 01:12:01 PM
'Twas a bit of light hearted humour, nothing more.

Grab another coffee, it's early where you are!

                              :)

Right you are! Except from my perspective, it's late rather than early. 4 pm local time would be my "early" !   ::)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 29, 2017, 01:28:23 PM

It all comes down to this:

“I looked at your three clips and you seem like a very nice person and you have lots of enthusiasm.  For you there is a base issue related to your investigations.  Do you try to pursue learning about conventional electronics, or do you ignore conventional electronics and only pursue learning about so-called "alternative" electronics?  Or do you try to pursue a mixture of the two?  That's your choice to make.”


That choice is not yours, and as you say, I or anyone else has the right to follow what he believes.


“What I am noticing is that this forum is not a good learning environment and if you want to learn about conventional electronics you are probably going to have to pursue that path by yourself or with other people.  I am quite certain that many people that watched your clips that like "alternative" electronics but also have a reasonable understanding of conventional electronics were not helping you when they could have helped you.  They are not sharing good information with you because doing so would make them feel uncomfortable for some strange reason.”

If this forum if this forum is not a good learning environment , what are doing here ?

“For starters, there is no such thing as single-wire energy transmission.”

Nonsense

“Now, some people are going to be upset that I made this posting.  I am trying to suggest to you that if you are interested in electronics and electronics experimentation there is a vast amount of knowledge out there.  It's up to you to determine what path you want to take.  And I am disappointed that many of the people following you that know better are not making any real effort to give you some good and useful information.  Many people have seen the types of things that you are doing dozens of times before.  They only want to throw the usual "alternative" electronics information at you.”

Are you trying to "evangelize" another sheep?


“Ooh is that TheOldScientist clip ever cringeworthy.”

Do your own experiments, and show the world how strict you are, rather than criticizing who actually does something to reach the masses.


“Sorry, but I personally have very low confidence in TheOldScientist.  He is free energy clickbait.”

Is it really? Or is it just an elbow pain you feel?


“In a certain sense I suppose that we are both in the same position then, aren't we?  You are talking before testing also, aren't you?  So why do you disagree with me?”

The only person who has not tested any of the statements was clearly you. Is not true ?


“Speaking of opening your mind, do you actually know how a coil works?  It's fun to play with them but I can tell you that more than 95% of experimenters on places like this don't know how coils actually work.”

Your certificate of incompetence certainly had not served the majority.

“Nelson, I asked you specific questions about your claims about pancake coils and your bench work and you are avoiding answering them.  Why are you avoiding answering?”

What claims did I in particular? That pancake coil have special properties?
It's true I keep my position.

“Evostars: Don't be passive-aggressive rude with this "I am not reading you" comment.”

Who are you to speak of rudeness? Surely you are not really aware of the egocentric, manipulative and disrespectful way you talk to people, do not you?


“You made some claims and when you were asked to back them up you had nothing to say.  I wasn't asking my questions for fun, I wanted to see what you had to say, which we now know is nothing.  Anybody can play with a coil and light some LEDs.  Who is acing like the child?”

No comments , you are sure that you are old enough not to behave this way, but not all in good time reach full maturity of spirit.

“Stop with your psychobabble nonsense.  I will meet your psychobabble and we will call it a truce.  You and Evostars fit the psychological profile that we all know and have seen many times before.”

To me seems exactly happen the opposite , you psychological profile should be not so much appreciated by the most people , and is just spend some minutes to read some of your posts and is clear by the feedback that people give . 

“You stick your head in the sand.  You even get desperate and start to insult the people that you were having a debate with.”

Unlike you, I did not insult anyone or make disparaging remarks from people who are not even here to defend themselves, and that is transparent as water.


“We all know how the story ends also.  After a few months of replicating all of the flashing LED experiments and the lighting of CFL experiments and replicating some amazing high voltage spark experiments done with coils, you start to lose enthusiasm and it gets less and less interesting.  You realize that after six months your progress is not going anywhere and you still don't really understand basic electronics.  So you give up and throw your coils into a cardboard box.  Five years later you realize that you still haven't touched the box and you throw it in the garbage.”

My enthusiasm is much higher than you think , but your's seems dissipate day by day just because you are only a person that seems  to be the center of attention and day by day you just become know by your irascible behavior.

“Time to stick your head in the sand (don't read this):  And when you first connect the wires from your battery to your coil, at that instant of contact the coil acts like an open-circuit.  The coil has infinite resistance when you first make an electrical contact with it.  It's all very interesting, but you don't want to know that, you want to make neons light up in your hand!”

You even know my work so , you are only speculate just to convince yourself that you are wining the "battle" created against the "evil dark people" like me , that have courage to answer you in same coin .

“Go play with your coils.”

Just when you start not have more arguments a childish answer   ,is only that that you have ?


“Like you, I also got caught up in all the pseudo science jargon of moving the aether and scalar waves etc.  Ten years later I now know most of that is just hype to sell books.”

All the pseudo science jargon of moving the aether and scalar waves are study in present time by scientists  even you or others could say is only fantasy .


“My service is to them and I can assure you that many of them understand what I am saying and they understand my qualification of you and Evostars and they know exactly what container that the two of you fit into.”

Ohh i see ,  but like you already say only 5% knows how a simple coil work , you fail roundly in your attempts , you need help the other 95%  if is really your mission . Pathetic

“Or perhaps Nelson got a dose of RomeroUK sickness.  I get the feeling there is some poor guy in Kuala Lumpur that paid a few thousand dollars for a shoe box containing a Joule Thief circuit and every few months he stares at it.  That is not going to save the millions of people that starve to death each year.”

Moralist nonsense Fedivairy , i work ever week make community service to old people and homeless people , is something that to me is already any palpable action not graisy words like yours .


“I actually came into this thread very diplomatically and tried to explain to you what you were doing and observing.  I said that you can choose to go your own way, or try pursuing two paths such that you would try to learn and understand the information that I and others were offering you.”

You diplomatically ? I spend a bit of my time collecting some sentences  since begin the topic, only to show other  people how you a are poor unfortunate , and how work your diplomacy .


“I can assure you that I seriously doubt that I will post in this thread any more to try to help you with sound advice and explanations and to share some knowledge.  I will be more than content to watch the comedy skit from the sidelines.”

Yes , but you return ! Milehigh never loose a battle , and we should make feel , that you win only to you stop and go way ?

“They apparently aren't at all interested in learning anything that might disturb their fantasies.”

My Fantasies or other's Fantasies is not of your concern like yours in not of my concern.


“So... you are EF's Allen Burgess? That explains a lot, for sure. You get yet another ROFL, and nobody will ever look at your posts here in quite the same light again. “

How kind of you to other people ...


“On a side note, I looked through that thread again and when I read it I recalled good old Luc calling me a "troll" a few months ago. He deserves a swift kick in the ass for saying that.”

Yes but maybe the opposite should happen , and fore sure much people in silence are think how true is that . 


“So, going forward, I welcome any contribution to this thread by you.  But I don't want any more ad hominem attacks on me, nor do I want any straw man arguments being made about me, nor do I want any fake technical claims being made by you that you can't back up with logical arguments.  Does that sound reasonable?

Yes very reasonable , and i told you many times that i respect you opinion about some subjects , and even that is not enough to you , because you continue try impose something to others that i really don't understand why .

If the subject matter is above your technical level, then try to learn, keep your hands in your pockets, relax, and watch the blinking lights.”


My hands are not in pockets , ether watch blinking lights; is your case ? Make something more useful for you if you mission is help the community Instead of strutting you, how smart you are.
There are sites where the information you explain is provided more clearly and without the cost of your heartburn and arrogance.

This is a forum where alternative energy is discussed. Not to endure arrogance, and unbridled  as happened in this topic.
The topic started with "The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency" and little was said about this particular issue, just because Some egocentric behaviors.

Nelson Rocha




Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 29, 2017, 01:47:06 PM
Good Nelson, you are all butt hurt for being told that your ad hominem attacks and straw man arguments are unacceptable.  It doesn't feel good to be labeled the "bad guy," does it?  It upset you to the point that you had to do the "big thread shakedown."

Just check your behaviour and simply act like a normal person.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 29, 2017, 01:55:52 PM
Quote
“So... you are EF's Allen Burgess? That explains a lot, for sure. You get yet another ROFL, and nobody will ever look at your posts here in quite the same light again. “

How kind of you to other people ...
How kind of you to mix my comment in with your quotes from MH. I repay kindness with more kindness, and scorn with more scorn, as is only fair. Have you noticed that nobody bothers to reply to Allen Burgess's threads on EF any more? (Except Ramset of course, who is superhumanly kind to everyone, stray cats and dogs included.) THAT is scorn, and is especially sour when you consider the general content of EF.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 29, 2017, 02:09:29 PM
Another quote form Tesla's patent 512340 (bifilar coils):

I have found that in every coil there exists a certain relation between its self-induction and capacity that permits a current of given frequency and potential to pass through it with no other opposition than that of ohmic resistance,

or, in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction.

 This is due to the mutual relations existing between the special character of the current and the self-induction and capacity of the coil, the latter quantity being just capable of neutralizing the self-induction for that frequency. It is well-known that the higher the frequency or potential difference of the current the smaller the capacity required to counteract the self-induction




Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on March 29, 2017, 02:52:50 PM
One thing is for sure-->those who continually dismiss the PM and water as an endless power source,will be the very same people that will go no further than they are now.

One has to have a good laugh,when you hear from others,that the PM can do no useful work--and yet they are the very same people that do not yet understand what the magnetic force actually is  ::)

There is a big difference in knowing what we can and cannot do with a magnetic field,and actually knowing what it is.
Only when you know what the magnetic force is,will you know what it can do--until then,it's just some fumbling around,and using what we know so far.

Anyway,back to my washing machine motors for me.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: partzman on March 29, 2017, 03:31:02 PM
MH, Tk, Zephir and all,

First let me say that I appreciate the constructive and well meaning criticism that you offer as help to those such as myself.  My goal is to simply continue to seek answers for those seeming anomalies which might provide a self generating device.  My post of the MEI scope pix was one such example.  Do I plan to attempt to build a looped version to really prove or disprove the concept, absolutely.

Also, I have the highest regard for the engineers at Tektronix.  I have worked directly with them regarding measurement issues with my MDO3034 and they have been most cooperative.  The newest series of their scopes are quite capable of reasonably accurate measurements if used properly, but improvements could be made especially when measuring in circuits with COP~>1.

In the recent past I made a promise to myself that I would no longer post to any forum unless I could demonstrate a self runner of some type.  All else is futile so I will attempt to return to that position.

pm
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 29, 2017, 04:52:15 PM
Another quote form Tesla's patent 512340 (bifilar coils):

I have found that in every coil there exists a certain relation between its self-induction and capacity that permits a current of given frequency and potential to pass through it with no other opposition than that of ohmic resistance,

or, in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction.

 This is due to the mutual relations existing between the special character of the current and the self-induction and capacity of the coil, the latter quantity being just capable of neutralizing the self-induction for that frequency. It is well-known that the higher the frequency or potential difference of the current the smaller the capacity required to counteract the self-induction


I am going to assume that Tesla had a strong intuitive sense and understanding of what he was observing and analyzing and applying, but he did not have the circuit analysis theory or applied mathematical background to model these systems.

The actual analysis and modeling has been around for a long time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit#Impedance

"Therefore the series LC circuit, when connected in series with a load, will act as a band-pass filter having zero impedance at the resonant frequency of the LC circuit."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit#Impedance_2

"The parallel LC circuit connected in series with a load will act as band-stop filter having infinite impedance at the resonant frequency of the LC circuit. The parallel LC circuit connected in parallel with a load will act as band-pass filter."
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Jeg on March 29, 2017, 06:10:29 PM
The only exception seems to be the ones that stubbornly stick to the idea that the current reverses when the coil discharges.  For some people there is no hope they will ever learn.

Carroll

Hi Caroll and everyone. Hi T.K. ;)

Just to share my point of view on this reversal never ending story.

We feed some dc current across an inductor to ground (-) through a switch. For example a low side mosfet switch. When this current flows, we have a certain magnetic polarity across the coil. During this time, inductor 'pushes' as to oppose to this current flow, developing a voltage polarity opposite to that of the source. When switch opens and current stops flowing, in fact there is a violent change in the ''magnetic moment''. Where North was before, now there is a sudden movement to zero. Inductor sees this change and develops instantly a counter electromotive force opposite to the one that had before when it was pushing against battery. This new coil's voltage polarity, which now is a HV spike, tries to maintain the same current direction as when current was moving. But now it is just opposes again to the sudden zeroing of current and consequently the rapid change in flux. 

The best proof for the described action, is to ''see'' straight across a secondary with your oscilloscope probes. You will see that cemf changes direction between charging and discharging actions of the primary.

So my answer to the question about if current changes direction or no: There is not any conduction current when switch opens! Just the reaction of the opposing in nature coil, which is pure voltage.
The argument is based on a wrong base.       

Regards   

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Acca on March 29, 2017, 06:25:41 PM
Mr.Nelson Rocha I have a lot respect to you as you have posted in your recent long post.


It has to be best written opinion on Over-Unity here. 


This is not a place to "learn " as the resident trolls will destroy you here for being uneducated ...


They simply are will not allow any one any help or even suggest that..


They will  dig a hole for some one to fall in and trap him in that with no way out ..


Again a fantastic post.. Kudos to you and that you have the passion to to that !!!


Acca...



Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 29, 2017, 06:39:01 PM
So my answer to the question about if current changes direction or no: There is not any conduction current when switch opens! Just the reaction of the opposing in nature coil, which is pure voltage.
The argument is based on a wrong base.       

Jeg, this important topic is all fully documented in the thread that Carroll linked to, and I suggest that you read it.

You are quoting one of the biggest misconceptions about coils that goes all the way back to the late John Bedini. It's the false idea that when the switch opens the coil produces "pure voltage" and no current.

If there was one amp of current flowing through the coil before the switch opens, then just after the instant the switch opens there is still one amp of current flowing through the coil.  However, because the switch is open, the current flow through the coil decreases rapidly to zero.

Here is the symmetry:

When you short-circuit a capacitor, the capacitor outputs voltage that decreases rapidly to zero and there is a strong pulse of current that also decreases rapidly to zero.

When you open-circuit an inductor, the inductor outputs current that decreases rapidly to zero and there is a strong pulse of voltage that also decreases rapidly to zero.

More symmetry:

A coil is absolutely NOT something that produces "pure voltage and no current."  What it really produces is is "pure current and the voltage is dependent on the load."

A capacitor is absolutely NOT something that produces "pure current and no voltage."  What it really produces is is "pure voltage and the current is dependent on the load."

It is very important that you understand this so that when you work on your bench you have a better understanding of what is taking place.

Even the tiniest coil when connected through a switch will ionize the air and create a conductive plasma when the switch opens.  This is because a coil acts like a current source.  If you do not know what a current source is then please research this important topic.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on March 29, 2017, 06:49:28 PM
Acca

I totally disagree with your post.  The only reason someone can't learn on this forum is because they refuse to learn.  I have posted several links in this thread for those that are willing to learn.  Here is only one of them.

https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-current-direction-change-when-an-inductor-discharges (https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-current-direction-change-when-an-inductor-discharges)

After I posted it apparently no one took the time to even look at it.  It was obvious they didn't because of their inane comments.  I also posted this link to a discussion thread that had lots of info about the myth of reversing current when a coil discharges.

http://overunity.com/16203/inductive-kickback/ (http://overunity.com/16203/inductive-kickback/)

After posting that I was told there was no reason to read it.  We can't help people learn if they refuse to even look at what we are trying to show them.  It appears you would rather let them continue in their confusion rather than have those of us that know better actually try to help them.  You are putting down the very people that are doing exactly what you claim they are not doing.

Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 29, 2017, 07:39:05 PM
Good Nelson, you are all butt hurt for being told that your ad hominem attacks and straw man arguments are unacceptable.  It doesn't feel good to be labeled the "bad guy," does it?  It upset you to the point that you had to do the "big thread shakedown."

Just check your behavior and simply act like a normal person.

I'm hurt ? ohh really  ? You upset me ? not so sure .. but i don't have your time to answer you, ever time you post , myself don't live without work :)  .

Bad guy me ?
I did not know about that my facet , and i really wonder how bad i could be in your mouth and in your words you are hilarious .

You should really check you behavior , because you act like a a kid that someone steal their toy and go call the papa .
Don't be ridiculous , you simple don't accept that someone disagree from you but i will tell you again :

I'm owner of myself Thoughts , and is not you or anyone that influence me just to please, or be part of the "elite" of Illuminated group .
I have the right of disagree, when I do not agree with some affirmation ,  and myself are free to  learn too , with other ideas or new concepts that you could not agree or even know or understand  .So simple like that .

I just say, like someone could read in the posts i write , that pancake coil have special properties and that to me is irrefutable, under what i see in practical work and others already saw , something that you don't know but  only theorize .

But even that why you struggling to convince me ? No one impose nothing to you , in fact i repeat lot of times that even disagree i respect your opinion , and i did not concentrate so much energy to convince you from the opposite Well no sir ?

 To you even Nikola Tesla seems that not have the "mathematical background"  to model their own systems . That is you worst shot  , that i could hear and only could be like a bad joke , or simple nonsense .  is my sincerely opinion .

Do not bother to continue to convince me with your copy past, and with your ideas. If I were looking for what you have make copy past, i am able to do it in the most diverse sites where you are going to get the information, and in many others.
Simple like that.

Nothing more to add .

Have a nice day , and enjoy

Nelson Rocha
 
 
   
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 29, 2017, 07:53:33 PM
Another quote form Tesla's patent 512340 (bifilar coils):

I have found that in every coil there exists a certain relation between its self-induction and capacity that permits a current of given frequency and potential to pass through it with no other opposition than that of ohmic resistance,

or, in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction.

 This is due to the mutual relations existing between the special character of the current and the self-induction and capacity of the coil, the latter quantity being just capable of neutralizing the self-induction for that frequency. It is well-known that the higher the frequency or potential difference of the current the smaller the capacity required to counteract the self-induction


Yes Evostars , the father of pancake coils  say exactly that "it possessed no self-induction"  only need find the right frequency to that happens , and seems is that that some really don't agree  , and that is the reason to the compass not show any deflection even when  drive a load , not by the high frequency like someone say .

Cheers


Nelson Rocha

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 29, 2017, 08:45:28 PM
What is this, low-hanging-fruit day?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd5w8KhYrQk

OF COURSE it is frequency dependent.

What do you think "IN EVERY COIL" means in that quote? He is NOT ONLY referring to his bifilar winding.
As Tesla says in the patent, the Tesla Bifilar winding has increased interturn capacitance which reduces
the EXTERNAL CAPACITANCE needed to produce this effect on self-inductance at a given frequency and voltage.
In his day, high-voltage capacitors were bulky, expensive and unreliable, so there was a good reason to
try to reduce the external capacitance required and to increase the self-capacitance of certain coils which
he used in his "tesla coils" of various designs. Note the title of the patent: Coil for ELECTROMAGNETS.
But the effect itself can be obtained WITH ANY COIL and suitable external capacitance.

So how do you get a magnetic field in your electromagnet without self-inductance? How do you transfer
power to a secondary coil without an alternating magnetic field? By magic? Funny, then, how well
mathematical models work for coil behaviour when they don't have to include magic in the calculations.

http://www.nde-ed.org/EducationResources/CommunityCollege/EddyCurrents/Physics/selfinductance.htm

Many people who should know better choose to misinterpret Tesla's patent, and not only this one.
And many people seem to confuse inductive reactance with self-inductance. 

(And Tesla isn't the "father of pancake coils". At best he's a cousin or nephew.)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 29, 2017, 08:52:46 PM
I am going to assume that Tesla had a strong intuitive sense and understanding of what he was observing and analyzing and applying, but he did not have the circuit analysis theory or applied mathematical background to model these systems.

The actual analysis and modeling has been around for a long time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit#Impedance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit#Impedance)

"Therefore the series LC circuit, when connected in series with a load, will act as a band-pass filter having zero impedance at the resonant frequency of the LC circuit."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit#Impedance_2 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit#Impedance_2)

"The parallel LC circuit connected in series with a load will act as band-stop filter having infinite impedance at the resonant frequency of the LC circuit. The parallel LC circuit connected in parallel with a load will act as band-pass filter."

Exactly. There is nothing magic or special about the Tesla bifilar winding to produce this effect. As Tesla says in the quote, "IN EVERY COIL". The Tesla bifilar winding just has more interturn capacitance and so needs less external capacitance to make the LC circuit resonate at a given frequency. AS TESLA SAYS in the patent.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Erfinder on March 29, 2017, 08:54:24 PM
[/font]
 Yes Evostars , the father of pancake coils  say exactly that "it possessed no self-induction"  only need find the right frequency to that happens , and seems is that that some really don't agree  , and that is the reason to the compass not show any deflection even when  drive a load , not by the high frequency like someone say .[/font]
 
 Cheers
 
 
 Nelson Rocha
 

 
 When he says:  "in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction...", he is NOT suggesting that there are no external magnetic fields or effects associated with magnetic fields!   
 
 
 Undivided attention, and careful consideration should be given to the bold text......

"mutual relations" existing between the special character of the current and the self-induction and capacity of the coil......

If and when you comprehend what he's suggesting, you discover the true  purpose of the flat spiral wound "bifilar" coil, it's got nothing to do with anything that is being debated.  It's about purpose....he gave you the purpose in the title.....  Try asking yourself...what in the hell is he referring to by this "special character of the current".

Quote:
 
"I have found that in every coil there exists a certain relation between its self-induction and capacity that permits a current of a given frequency and potential to pass through it with no other opposition  than that of ohmic resistance, or, in other words, as though it possessed no self -induction."
 
 
 So that its clear....  we are informed of what was "observed", as it applies to "every coil", we are informed of this "AFTER" we are informed of the "PURPOSE", which was.....:
 
 
 "My present invention has for its object to avoid the employment of condensers which are expensive and cumbersome and difficult to maintain in perfect condition, and to so construct the coils themselves as to accomplish the same ultimate object.
 
 That which was "observed" in every coil is to be kept in mind while becoming informed/familiarized with the latest development and or improvement.


Tesla is leading us to something profound here.....fucking recognize it!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 29, 2017, 08:55:30 PM
I just say, like someone could read in the posts i write , that pancake coil have special properties and that to me is irrefutable, under what i see in practical work and others already saw , something that you don't know but  only theorize .

Yes you can claim that a pancake coil has special properties.  Now, this might be the third time I will ask you:  What are the special properties of the pancake coil?  If you don't say anything one more time then people will conclude that you have nothing.

Yes Evostars , the father of pancake coils  say exactly that "it possessed no self-induction"  only need find the right frequency to that happens , and seems is that that some really don't agree

You are not understanding the links I posted earlier.  This statement, "Therefore the series LC circuit, when connected in series with a load, will act as a band-pass filter having zero impedance at the resonant frequency of the LC circuit," says that the coil possesses no self-induction at the resonance frequency because the lnductive reactance is cancelled out by the capacitive reactance.

(No self induction) is the reason to the compass not show any deflection even when  drive a load , not by the high frequency like someone say .

So you are finally making a technical statement to back up one of your claims.  Unfortunately the statement is wrong.  Your logic seems to be this: "Since the pancake coil has no self-induction, therefore the coil is not producing a magnetic field, therefore the compass needle shows no deflection."  The pancake coil is producing a magnetic field whether it is in self-resonance or not in self-resonance.  In fact, the chances of the coil in your clip actually being in self-resonance are dubious, there is a lot of resonance confirmation bias taking place between you and Evostars.  The coil having no self-induction at self-resonance does not mean that the coil is not producing a magnetic field.  Like I previously stated, the compass needle is simply not going to deflect in the presence of a high-frequency AC magnetic field.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 29, 2017, 08:56:49 PM
Yes, Nelson, you have "The right to disagree". You also have the "right" to be wrong. But do you have the right to push your wrong ideas onto other people?

Tell us what Tesla means when he says "IN EVERY COIL".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on March 29, 2017, 09:45:54 PM
What really amazes me is how many people have jumped on this bandwagon that resonance is some kind of magic ingredient in an OU device.  I am not saying that OU is not possible although I haven't seen definite proof of it yet, but I don't think most people on these forums have a clue what resonance is or how normal and common it is.  Resonance has been used since the very early days of radio to allow you to tune in one station instead of a bunch of them at one time.  In any superterodyne receiver there are several tuned stages to give more gain and selectivity to the signal.  I am not saying more gain in power.  All of these stages are tuned to resonance for the best transfer of signal.  Ham radio operators use to have to tune their transmitters so the output stages were in resonance.  Now it is done automatically for them.  I think YouTube must be a secret plot to dumb down the people of this and other countries because that seems to be the only place anyone wants to learn from.

GET SOME REAL EDUCATION PEOPLE AND FORGET THE GARBAGE YOU ARE LEARNING FROM DUMBTUBE.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on March 29, 2017, 10:08:40 PM


“So you are finally making a technical statement to back up one of your claims. Unfortunately the statement is wrong. Your logic seems to be this: "Since the pancake coil has no self-induction, therefore the coil is not producing a magnetic field, therefore the compass needle shows no deflection." The pancake coil is producing a magnetic field whether it is in self-resonance or not in self-resonance.”

Where you see i say that pancake coil has no self induction MH ?

I say :

“the father of pancake coils say exactly that "it possessed no self-induction" only need find the right frequency to that happens .”
 
Are you blind you are you try manipulate  what i wrote ?

“ Your logic seems to be this: "Since the pancake coil has no self-induction, therefore the coil is not producing a magnetic field”

MH Is you logic not mine a logic of someone very dirty  but not surprise me i already saw that same behavior in other occasions.


“The coil having no self-induction at self-resonance does not mean that the coil is not producing a magnetic field.”


MH You write that not me . Did i wrote  that not produce magnetic field ?  show me please where i wrote that .

“Yes, Nelson, you have "The right to disagree". You also have the "right" to be wrong. But do you have the right to push your wrong ideas onto other people?”

For sure i that right to disagree, but what wrong ideia are you talk about TK  ?

When he says: "in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction...", he is NOT suggesting that there are no external magnetic fields or effects associated with magnetic fields!

Erfinder where i wrote that please show me . Read very well the post , MH make that assumption because like manipulate what people say but i did not write that  .   

“How do you transfer power to a secondary coil without an alternating magnetic field? By magic? “
TK are you try put words in my mouth too  ? I will tell you to read better where i wrote that because is not my affirmation , but seems convenient to you make that assumption…

“The Tesla bifilar winding just has more interturn capacitance and so needs less external capacitance to make the LC circuit resonate at a given frequency”

TK isn’t that a special property of pancake coil in relation to others coils ? It seems to me that is one special property isn't  ?    


“Yes you can claim that a pancake coil has special properties. Now, this might be the third time I will ask you: What are the special properties of the pancake coil? If you don't say anything one more time then people will conclude that you have nothing.”

MH People could conclude what they want , just need be impartial and read very clearly all the posts .
 You manipulate what i say nothing more then that , but is nothing new by your side .
And i know that you will continue again and again but it’s ok . keep trying ...:)  I'm just now light a neon to you :) only with a hand .

real sad real sad .

Nelson Rocha












Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 29, 2017, 11:40:06 PM
Quote
“The Tesla bifilar winding just has more interturn capacitance and so needs less external capacitance to make the LC circuit resonate at a given frequency”

TK isn’t that a special property of pancake coil in relation to others coils ? It seems to me that is one special property isn't  ? 
 

Yes, that is a "special property" not only of "pancake coil" but of the Tesla Bifilar winding, whether flat or solenoidal, and I have never said it isn't. It is the heart of Tesla's patent 512340, after all. I have explained how this is useful, or was useful in Tesla's day. But that doesn't make the coil magic. Yet people still attribute all kinds of other special properties to it, which it does not in fact have.

"IN EVERY COIL".... that "special property" of cancellation of self-inductance at a particular voltage and frequency is a property of EVERY coil. Yet people say that the Tesla Bifilar pancake coil winding is "special" because of this property that EVERY coil has. Perhaps you are not one of those people, but some of the people commenting here certainly are.

Now, the _flat_ or "pancake" coil does have one other "special" property, no matter if it is Single wound or Tesla Bifilar: When used as the primary of an air-core resonating transformer, it allows the builder to get the outermost turns (corresponding to the upper turns of a solenoidal coil) a good distance away from the secondary, and this is advantageous for two reasons. First, it lessens the chance of high-voltage flashover between the secondary resonator and the primary, which can be dangerous to equipment and personnel. Second, it "loosens" the magnetic coupling coefficient between the two coils, which allows the resonator to "ring" more freely when it gets a pulse from the primary.

Meanwhile.... note the Tesla Bifilar primary on my little mini-sstc here:
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 29, 2017, 11:52:00 PM
Where you see i say that pancake coil has no self induction MH ?

I say :

“the father of pancake coils say exactly that "it possessed no self-induction" only need find the right frequency to that happens .”
 
Are you blind you are you try manipulate  what i wrote ?

You said this:

<<< Yes Evostars , the father of pancake coils  say exactly that "it possessed no self-induction"  only need find the right frequency to that happens , and seems is that that some really don't agree  , and that is the reason to the compass not show any deflection even when  drive a load , not by the high frequency like someone say .  >>>

And I requoted it as this:

<<< (No self induction) is the reason to the compass not show any deflection even when  drive a load , not by the high frequency like someone say>>>

You are saying the pancake coil has no self-induction at resonance which results in the compass needle not deflecting.  There is no manipulation there at all.  Perhaps it is related to language for you since English is your third language?   Why are you still in confrontational mode?

MH Is you logic not mine a logic of someone very dirty  but not surprise me i already saw that same behavior in other occasions.

Did you read what I said to you before?  <<<And in this thread I have read many really nasty and ugly ad hominem attacks from you against me.>>>  If you can't stop the ad hominem attacks then you should leave this thread.

MH You write that not me . Did i wrote  that not produce magnetic field ?  show me please where i wrote that .

I used the speculative word "seems."  <<< Your logic seems to be this...>>>  I am not saying that you definitively stated that the coil does not produce a magnetic field.

If you agree that the coil produces a magnetic field, then what is your explanation for the compass needles not deflecting in your video?

real sad real sad .

One more time:  No more ad hominem attacks.  Discuss the technical points only.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: web000x on March 30, 2017, 12:03:16 AM
@evostars,


What are the measured LC values and wire gauge for your bifilar coils?  I'd also be interested in the read out of a capacitance meter connected to one leg of each coil while the coils are not connected on the far end.  I am curious if the similar orientation of the dielectric field in the pancake coil produces a stronger capacitance vs a bifilar solenoid.  Dollard seemed to think the planetary alignments had a more profound impact on electrical phenomena because of the dielectric flux orientation between them so this test stands to reason... 


Dave


PS @Efinder, thanks
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 30, 2017, 12:46:15 AM
Quote from: MileHigh
this might be the third time I will ask you:  What are the special properties of the pancake coil?
The pancake coil has the evanescent scalar wave phenomena enhanced - whereas the normal inductors have them suppressed. The tunneling of EM (http://www.nature.com/news/2000/000530/full/news000601-5.html) wave through evanescent field (http://cds.cern.ch/record/547324/files/0204043.pdf) runs with superluminal speed (https://arxiv.org/abs/0708.0681), whereas EM wave in classical circuits always propagates with speed of light or lower. The overunity is extradimensional, normal causality violating effect in essence and the normal spreading of EM waves along conductors cannot achieve it.

Quote from: TinselKoala
the _flat_ or "pancake" coil does have one other "special" property, no matter if it is Single wound or Tesla Bifilar

The bifilar coil collect the A-field component of magnetic field, which isn't detectable with normal coil around torus (Aharamov-Bohm effect (http://www.overunity.com/14397/jerry-bayles-chiral-effect-homopolar-a-vector-alternator-and-syncho-coil/15)). Even at the case, when normal coil is used, then some magnetic field leaks from toroid, because it's coil represents one loop of winding by itself. Once the bifiliar coil doesn't induce the back-EMF voltage and magnetic flux into the circuit, then all energy collected on such a coil must be redundant and as such overunity. The conclusion therefore is, that the every bifilar coil wound around standard Joule-Thief oscillator winding should collect portion of its energy for free.

IMO the MileHigh/TinselKoala should get banned from this site, as their long-term agenda contradicts the very purpose of this forum: the research and spreading the overunity technology. In my experience just a few dedicated trolls like these two ones (note their posts count) can disrupt the constructive atmosphere of the whole forum. You cannot achieve the understanding of overunity with using of laws, principles and concepts, which are itself based on energy conservation law - to pretend otherwise would be just an oxymoron. The raising such laws, concepts and principles therefore doesn't and cannot ad nothing into discussion. You can be very educated / experienced in it, but just this education would prohibit you in understanding, why and how the overunity is working. We don't need explanations, why overunity is impossible - every textbooks and Wikipedia contains more than enough of this propaganda. We all did come to this site not because we don't know, that the overunity shouldn't work - but just because of it: we perceive it as a scientific anomaly.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 30, 2017, 01:31:56 AM
@evostars,


What are the measured LC values and wire gauge for your bifilar coils?  I'd also be interested in the read out of a capacitance meter connected to one leg of each coil while the coils are not connected on the far end.  I am curious if the similar orientation of the dielectric field in the pancake coil produces a stronger capacitance vs a bifilar solenoid.  Dollard seemed to think the planetary alignments had a more profound impact on electrical phenomena because of the dielectric flux orientation between them so this test stands to reason... 


Dave


PS @Efinder, thanks
top coil (of 3 stacked coils,  center pulsed,  top bottom series connected) :  70 turns, 1.78 nF  0.51mH
bottom coil 0.47mH   1,72nF (coil tuned to topcoil, by adding 2x 50pF in parallel, so both resonate at the same frequency)
center coil (tighterwound)  2,58 nF 0.57mH

capacitance was measured by disconnecting the 2 windings (what i call "bridge")
my lcr meter is a very cheap chinese CA-4070L.

Edit: I havent done your reading yet, with 2  coils stacked, but not connected, and then one lead of each coil to measure capacitance.
The wire gauge, I dont know. the diameter including enamal coating is around 0.8mm. they are hand wound on cd sleeves with 70 turns total (2x35)

edit2: done the measurement. around 47pF between the top and bottom coil (without the center coil) not series connected,
again, a poor reading from a cheap LCR meter.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: web000x on March 30, 2017, 01:52:11 AM
top coil (of 3 stacked coils,  center pulsed,  top bottom series connected) :  70 turns, 1.78 nF  0.51mH
bottom coil 0.47mH   1,72nF (coil tuned to topcoil, by adding 2x 50pF in parallel, so both resonate at the same frequency)
center coil (tighterwound)  2,58 nF 0.57mH

capacitance was measured by disconnecting the 2 windings (what i call "bridge")
my lcr meter is a very cheap chinese CA-4070L.

Edit: I havent done your reading yet, with 2  coils stacked, but not connected, and then one lead of each coil to measure capacitance.
The wire gauge, I dont know. the diameter including enamal coating is around 0.8mm. they are hand wound on cd sleeves with 70 turns total (2x35)

edit2: done the measurement. around 47pF between the top and bottom coil (without the center coil) not series connected,
again, a poor reading from a cheap LCR meter.


Thanks,
 
Those numbers aren't too far from a couple of coils I've got at 100 turns 23 gauge bifilar.  One coil (standard bifilar will little concern to proximity of two wires during winding process) measured 2.9 nF.  The second coil (wires twisted together with a drill to increase bifilar winding proximity) measured 2.6 nF.  I'm not sure why the twisted pair of wires had less capacitance which was another reason for my curiosity into the capacitance of the pancake coil.  Maybe a learned person will shed light, lol..


Dave
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 30, 2017, 01:54:41 AM

 
 When he says:  "in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction...", he is NOT suggesting that there are no external magnetic fields or effects associated with magnetic fields!   
 
 
 Undivided attention, and careful consideration should be given to the bold text......

"mutual relations" existing between the special character of the current and the self-induction and capacity of the coil......

If and when you comprehend what he's suggesting, you discover the true  purpose of the flat spiral wound "bifilar" coil, it's got nothing to do with anything that is being debated.  It's about purpose....he gave you the purpose in the title.....  Try asking yourself...what in the hell is he referring to by this "special character of the current".

Quote:
 
"I have found that in every coil there exists a certain relation between its self-induction and capacity that permits a current of a given frequency and potential to pass through it with no other opposition  than that of ohmic resistance, or, in other words, as though it possessed no self -induction."
 
 
 So that its clear....  we are informed of what was "observed", as it applies to "every coil", we are informed of this "AFTER" we are informed of the "PURPOSE", which was.....:
 
 
 "My present invention has for its object to avoid the employment of condensers which are expensive and cumbersome and difficult to maintain in perfect condition, and to so construct the coils themselves as to accomplish the same ultimate object.
 
 That which was "observed" in every coil is to be kept in mind while becoming informed/familiarized with the latest development and or improvement.


Tesla is leading us to something profound here.....fucking recognize it!


The special character of the current.

spiraling. compressing inwards.

the compass points at the center of the coil, while the dielectric field is equaly concentrated between the windings, over the whole coil. where the "bloch wall" of a magnet would be.

what about the phase between the dielectric and magnetic fields? And its influence on the impedance.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 30, 2017, 01:57:08 AM

Thanks,
 
Those numbers aren't too far from a couple of coils I've got at 100 turns 23 gauge bifilar.  One coil (standard bifilar will little concern to proximity of two wires during winding process) measured 2.9 nF.  The second coil (wires twisted together with a drill to increase bifilar winding proximity) measured 2.6 nF.  I'm not sure why the twisted pair of wires had less capacitance which was another reason for my curiosity into the capacitance of the pancake coil.  Maybe a learned person will shed light, lol..


Dave

Maybe because the fields twist around the windings
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 30, 2017, 02:12:02 AM
Yes Evostars , the father of pancake coils  say exactly that "it possessed no self-induction"  only need find the right frequency to that happens , and seems is that that some really don't agree  , and that is the reason to the compass not show any deflection even when  drive a load , not by the high frequency like someone say .
Hmm I dont know. I will check this, with a compass next to the coil. I have noticed the magnetic field doing funny things below its resonant frequency.
As the wave shape is not sinodial anymore.

Still I do wonder what the differnce of a biffilar coil would be if the windings where on top of each other, instead of next to each other.

As is a bifilar coil made from speaker wire. one winding on top of the other winding, so you have 2 pancake coils on top of eachother. The dielectric field wil then be between the 2 windings. the inductance would also be differnt, as the 2 coils are not alligned anymore.

The dielectric field will now be at 90 degrees to the magnetic field.

I really have to build this and check it.

The resonant frequency video is thougher then I tought. Even wikipedia has no propaganda page on it. Impedance, and the phase relation between the fields is a bitch. With DC the impedance is equal to resistance, due to the phase differnce being 0. 

So, I guess, at the right frequency the phase difference between the magnetic and dielelectric must be 0.
Man I really could use some VR to visualise the fields.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 30, 2017, 03:01:28 AM
 
Those numbers aren't too far from a couple of coils I've got at 100 turns 23 gauge bifilar.  One coil (standard bifilar will little concern to proximity of two wires during winding process) measured 2.9 nF.  The second coil (wires twisted together with a drill to increase bifilar winding proximity) measured 2.6 nF.  I'm not sure why the twisted pair of wires had less capacitance which was another reason for my curiosity into the capacitance of the pancake coil.  Maybe a learned person will shed light, lol..

I am not sure how you guys are measuring the capacitance of your pancake coils but what I can say is that if you hook the leads of an LCR meter to the two terminals of the coil and set it to capacitance you are almost certainly getting an incorrect reading.  The basic problem is a capacitor has a DC open-circuit between the two terminals and a coil has a near DC short-circuit between the two terminals.

I am under the impression that capacitance and inductance meters excite the device under test with a series of discrete frequencies and measure the impedance and crunch the numbers back from that.  Honestly I am not sure what they actually do and I suspect different models and different brands do different things.  But it is safe to say that a capacitance meter is not expecting to see a near short-circuit in the device under test.

My suggestion is that a frequency sweep is the only way to measure the capacitance and then you have to crunch the numbers backwards to get the value.  I also suspect that as you sweep the frequency up that the pancake coil will manifest both series LC and parallel LC properties depending on the frequency and there might be multiple poles and zeros in the impedance as you do the frequency sweep. At higher frequencies just the proximity of your hand to the coil may affect the response.  This is all speculation on my part.  TK and others would know much more than me.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: web000x on March 30, 2017, 03:15:10 AM
I am not sure how you guys are measuring the capacitance of your pancake coils but what I can say is that if you hook the leads of an LCR meter to the two terminals of the coil and set it to capacitance you are almost certainly getting an incorrect reading.  The basic problem is a capacitor has a DC open-circuit between the two terminals and a coil has a near DC short-circuit between the two terminals.

I am under the impression that capacitance and inductance meters excite the device under test with a series of discrete frequencies and measure the impedance and crunch the numbers back from that.  Honestly I am not sure what they actually do and I suspect different models and different brands do different things.  But it is safe to say that a capacitance meter is not expecting to see a near short-circuit in the device under test.

My suggestion is that a frequency sweep is the only way to measure the capacitance and then you have to crunch the numbers backwards to get the value.  I also suspect that as you sweep the frequency up that the pancake coil will manifest both series LC and parallel LC properties depending on the frequency and there might be multiple poles and zeros in the impedance as you do the frequency sweep. At higher frequencies just the proximity of your hand to the coil may affect the response.  This is all speculation on my part.  TK and others would know much more than me.

MileHigh


The test I referred to is one where the two coils in the bifilar windings are two capacitor plates.  In this configuration, you can indeed use a capacitance meter.  My coils are not pancake coils, rather bifilar solenoid coils.  I was interested in the relations between evostars coil capacitance vs some of the one's I had made.


Dave
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 30, 2017, 03:46:24 AM
The test I referred to is one where the two coils in the bifilar windings are two capacitor plates.  In this configuration, you can indeed use a capacitance meter.  My coils are not pancake coils, rather bifilar solenoid coils.  I was interested in the relations between evostars coil capacitance vs some of the one's I had made.

Yes I read your posting and I am aware of what you requested.  I was just making generic comments that of course would apply to solenoid coils also. I seem to vaguely recall someone doing a YouTube clip where two physically similar solenoid coils, one regular and one bifilar, were frequency swept and the bifilar one had a lower resonance frequency which is a satisfyingly expected result.

As another generic comment, one has to wonder about the coil self-capacitance because it can only exist as a very brief transient because the "plates" are really just a minuscule puff of charge on a conductor that "shorts out the plates" presumably very quickly.  In a true stand-alone self-resonating coil, there presumably would be such a minuscule amount of charge circulating back and forth that the AC current and corresponding magnetic field would probably be very very weak.  I have always speculated that Tesla's bifilar pancake coil was a big coil perhaps 12 feet in diameter.  I am not sure if there are any pictures of some in his lab.  Perhaps they self-resonated in the tens of kilohertz frequency range and were more "stable" for lack of a better term.  Perhaps that means that a small bifilar pancake coil that you see around here self-resonates in the megahertz range.  One meter corresponds to 300 megahertz.  So if your coil is made of 10 meters of wire and let's say the propagation inside the coil is 95% the speed of light, perhaps the "action" is somewhere in the tens of megahertz range.  This is all just speculation for the fun of it.

I will just repeat, I suspect that the patent by Tesla was more of an academic exercise.  I doubt that his design saw any practical use because if it did we would surely know about it.  I would also like it if there was an "end game."  You know, something like a kid takes a handful of transistors and resistors and a few LEDs and builds a 4-bit up-down digital counter - he has an end game.  What is the end game for the bifilar pancake coil?

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 30, 2017, 11:42:32 AM
@MH, the way that the interturn capacitance of a Tesla Bifilar coil is generally measured is to break the
"crossover" series connection between the inner turn of one winding and the outer turn of the second winding
(or, in the case of solenoidal coils, between the top of one winding and the bottom of the other).
Then you have two separate lengths of wire closely adjacent, forming a capacitor in the same way as the old
"gimmick" caps of low pF values formed from a couple of short lengths of insulated wire twisted together
that we used to see in ham radios and other applications. You are entirely correct that common meters
cannot measure the capacitance of the fully-connected coil.

As usual, the capacitance thus formed is proportional to the areas of the "plates" or wires and inversely
proportional to the spacing between the wires (usually just the insulation thickness in the close-wound
TBF winding.)
 
But does this method actually give the true interturn capacitance that the coil has when fully connected
and in an oscillating or pulsed high voltage circuit as Tesla intended it to be used in the patent?
I'll leave the answer to that as an exercise for the readers.

As to how the meters actually measure this capacitance, there are several ways. One way is to put the
DUT in parallel with a known inductance inside the meter, and then "interrogate" the tank circuit thus
formed with a pulse and see how the tank responds -- it will "ring" at its resonant frequency -- then
the inductance can be calculated in the usual manner. Another way is, as you said, to measure the impedance
at some particular frequency or set of frequencies and calculate back from there.

And has been stated many times by now, Tesla sought to reduce the reliance upon expensive, bulky, costly
and unreliable _external_ HV capacitors for the primaries of his air-core resonating transformers ("Tesla Coils",
magnifying transmitters, etc) by raising the self-capacitance of these primaries in the manner described in
the patent. Nowadays this issue is rather moot because of advances in capacitor technology but for Tesla
it was a significant factor. So the patent is more than just an academic exercise; it had real-world implications
and applications for Tesla and other experimenters and builders of his day. Today, there is nothing a TBF
winding can do that cannot also be done with an ordinary monofilar winding and some added external capacitance.
"IN EVERY COIL...", as Tesla says in the patent.


I'm glad to see that "some people" are actually _reading_ Tesla's patent instead of snipping sections,
ignoring others and taking quotes out-of-context. Maybe what I've been telling them all along is
beginning to sink in.

As far as the comments of "NEWBIES" like this Zephir character go... I encourage them to perform their
own experiments and attempt to support their wild and non-physical claims with results of their own, rather
than spouting jargon and posting links that are irrelevant to the matters at hand. Have these people ever
actually done ANY experimentation at all, I wonder? Certainly I don't recall zeeing any reports of such from
Zephir.

Tesla would roll in his grave if he could see some of the utter BS that is spouted in his name... or maybe he'd just LOL.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 30, 2017, 12:59:46 PM
Quote
I encourage them to perform their own experiments and attempt to support their wild and non-physical claims with results of their own, rather than spouting jargon and posting links that are irrelevant to the matters at I encourage them to perform their own experiments and attempt to support their wild and non-physical claims with results of their own, rather than spouting jargon and posting links that are irrelevant to the matters at hand. hand.
The attitude of yours is completely imbecille. You even haven't proven my links are irrelevant to my claims and what you call jargon is normal scientific language. You can make an experiments whole your productive life, yet not to get an inch closer to actual solution of overunity, because you're ignorant in your very heart and you're blocking certain type of information in your head. You shouldn't therefore block this information for heads of other people just because of warning example of yours.

You know, I understand perfectly the problem with you. In history of science it's very common situation, when the very productive and successfull people (like the Ernst Rutherford, who was Nobelist in his young age and who is founder of atom nuclei) became soon or later a most rigid part of establishment and they blocked the further progress (for example with cold fusion (http://arxivblog.com/?p=664)). In my country I personally know many similar people like you in person - for example  this guy (https://twitter.com/jessicadanyk) is very capable electrotechnician (http://www.danyk.cz/index_en.html) and hobbyist, who enjoys youtubers with his wild experiments. But despite (actually just because)  of it he is one of most effective and dangerous trolls regarding overunity.

His videos are most widespread overunity fakes (1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mND_PXZ5vOA), 2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcuKjBiYSyI)) at youtube, which are polluting public overunity space and which are copied with another trolls mindlessly (you can still recognize them by his voice and Slavish accent easily). In this way, just the establishment of community becomes the most prominent brake of its further progress. The number of (failed) attempts for overunity device replications (Tesla coil with bifilar for example) fools the newbies and makes false impression of your qualification for overunity subject in layman posters here. But in fact you're way more dangerous troll, than the government silencing progress of alternative energy research, because you're acting inside and within overunity community. I insist, you should be banned from here because of your counterproductive behavior here. The greatest enemies of overunity community are these most respected internal ones.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on March 30, 2017, 01:47:17 PM
Zephir,

I have given you several links to real experiments that show you are clearly wrong.  You refuse to look at them.  Why?  Are you so afraid your false dogma will be shown for what it is?

Show me even one example that clearly shows the current reversing when a coil discharges.  Just one.  Not a bunch of drivel about how someone should be banned because they don't agree with you.  Show me some real evidence done in a controlled way that supports your false idea.  I know you can't do it because it is not true.  All the tests that were done in the thread I have been trying to get you to read show the current does not reverse when a coil discharges.  Only the voltage reverses because the coil becomes the source instead of the load when power is removed from the coil.

You asked were I got such a idea.  I got it from the high school physics class I took.  I got it from the college physics class I took.  I got it when I studied for my first class commercial FCC license.  I got it when I studied for my advanced class amateur radio operators license.  And I got it again when I went back to college for my electronics degree.  I also saw it in action almost every day that I worked as an electronics tech in an industrial plant for 30 years.

If anyone should be banned it is those that come here and deliberately post false information to confuse those really trying to learn.  Are you one of them?  It sure seems so because you twist everything anyone else posts.  I have heard that really dumb argument before that insists education and training gets in the way of open thinking.  That is just plain dumb.  How can you possibly know when you have discovered something new if you don't know what has already been discovered?  You can't.  And that is why we see so much foolishness on DumbTube.  Because people with no education post videos about their great discoveries and others with no education believe them.

I have spent many hours the last 10 years or so trying to help people on forums like this to learn about electronics.  I have built over 10 of the Bedini Simple School Girls circuit.  Which is not the circuit you posted when you tried to claim it was not anything like the Accutron watch circuit.  I have helped close to a hundred other people wanting to learn electronics to get their SSG to work by slowly taking them through the process of debugging their system that didn't work.

A sure sign of someone that doesn't know what they are talking about is when they attack the other person instead of the topic being discussed.  So I expect you will follow your past pattern and attack me for this post.  That is the only thing you can do because you have no evidence to back up your claim that current reverses when a coil discharges.

Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 30, 2017, 02:43:54 PM
some shout: The Earth is flat! you fools,  it has been proven! the earth is the center of the galaxy! you fools it has been proven.

clearly we live on the same earth,  and we now believe its a sphere (most of us).

maybe in the future we find out its a hollow sphere,  and we live in the inside.

What I'm trying to say,  is its all a matter of perspective.

you can see the electrons and atoms as particles, because it was proven,  as was the flat earth.

I never believed this to be true. all is light,  all is made of light fields and vortexes. particles are made up to under stand the complexity of the fields easier. but its only a trick,  that has its limitations. even the dielectric and magnetic fields are made of the same stuff. light.

please believe your own truth, which ever works best for you.


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Erfinder on March 30, 2017, 05:35:02 PM
Erfinder where i wrote that please show me . Read very well the post.....  .   


This isn't a debate.  This isn't me trying to attack you.  This is me responding to your statement regarding no activity in the compass that was under the influence of a bifilar winding.  What I read didn't sit right with me, in such instances, the natural reaction is to respond.  Maybe it's a language thing.....either way, I understand what you are trying to say....I don't agree with it, but as you know well, we are not here to agree, nor blindly accept anything. We are here sharing our questions, and perspectives on age old topics.



Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Erfinder on March 30, 2017, 06:28:10 PM
The special character of the current.


spiraling. compressing inwards.


For the last 10+ years (something special is to be found in taking your sweet ass time....) I have studied every patent granted to Nikola Tesla which has even the slightest relation to the "Coil for Electromagnets".  In none of those documents does one find Tesla describing the current as "spiraling, or compressing inwards".......


Most theories fall short of a practical application, this is not the case with Tesla.  He presents you with an idea, even better than this, he informs us that he has stopped using "physical capacitors", having discovered, and or realized that he could "so construct the coils themselves as to accomplish the same ultimate object."  I find his documents were prepared for the thinking few, not for parrots, nor for the learned.  Ever take note of those weird statements, the ones that make no sense when you "consider" the information which precedes and the information which follows the weird statement?  These points are completely overlooked by the majority. 


Quote: 


"This is due to the mutual relations existing between the special character of the current, and the self induction and capacity of the coil, the latter quantity being just capable of neutralizing the self-induction for that frequency."


What you can take from this is, if you don't have those mutual relations existing between.....you don't have what he wanted you to have.  If your circuit isn't developing the special character of current.....you don't have what he wanted you to have.  If your circuit doesn't have the necessary mutual relations existing between the special character of the current, and self induction and capacity, you don't have what he wanted you to have.  In other words, your bifilar will be about as useful as milk yielding utters on a bull in heat. This is where many find themselves......a confused mess....


the compass points at the center of the coil, while the dielectric field is equaly concentrated between the windings, over the whole coil. where the "bloch wall" of a magnet would be.


A confused mess...... 


what about the phase between the dielectric and magnetic fields? And its influence on the impedance.


The relation that I find Tesla spoke about was 90°.  The bad news if this is about power, and when isn't it about power, 90° relation means what you want is useless because its reactive.....that is the reality of this world....  Why make a useless relation the foundation of your vision.....probably because it wasn't useless....
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 30, 2017, 06:28:24 PM
Consider the image below, describing a very complicated circuit.

With the switch closed, does the LED light? In which direction does the current (conventional) flow through the coil?

When the switch is opened, does the LED flash? In which direction MUST the current flow from the coil if the LED is to flash?
 


People may agree or disagree about opinions. But as Richard Feynman said...

Quote
It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Jeg on March 30, 2017, 07:20:33 PM
Consider the image below, describing a very complicated circuit.

With the switch closed, does the LED light? In which direction does the current (conventional) flow through the coil?

When the switch is opened, does the LED flash? In which direction MUST the current flow from the coil if the LED is to flash?
 


People may agree or disagree about opinions. But as Richard Feynman said...

Is there any chance to confuse counter emf with current? If current doesn't reverse then why a secondary added to the coil in your drawing gives the attached waveform? Blue is drain, yellow is across the secondary. Switching is at low side and not high as in your drawing but the end result is the same. Notice that when current is flawing, secondary is negative. When switch opens secondary changes direction and goes to positive. Reverse of counter emf across any secondary indicates reverse of current flawing across a primary. Led lights because you apply in the right direction a voltage potential. If current was flawing at the same direction across your primary, then across the secondary we would see a negative value which goes even more negative when switch is open. Isn't that true?     
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Jeg on March 30, 2017, 07:26:35 PM
Purple is current across the primary. Yellow is the voltage across the secondary. I see a current which increases and suddenly changes to the other direction towards zero.

I think that changing direction of current is not the right term to describe it, and there lays all the misunderstanding. It is more a rapid break to the current flow and not an actual reverse of current. But coil will react by changing voltage polarity.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 30, 2017, 07:39:13 PM
@Jeg:   look at the sign (polarity) of the EMF in Faraday's Law of Induction:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday%27s_law_of_induction (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday%27s_law_of_induction)


Is it possible that "some people" are confused about this? Certainly, just look back in the thread for examples. But we are not talking here about current/voltage induced in a secondary, we are talking about what happens to the current in a single coil when the power to that coil is interrupted.

If you look at the schematic, you will see that when the switch is opened the _bottom_ end of the coil becomes Positive in analogy to a battery. This is the only way that the LED can flash, since it is reverse-biased when the switch is closed. So when the switch is opened, you can think of the voltage on the coil as "reversing" but the CURRENT definitely does not. When the switch is opened, the coil tries to resist changing in its magnetic field and to do this it must keep current flowing in the _same_ direction as before, for as long as it can. If there is no path for the current to flow, the _voltage_ increases as the coil attempts to keep current flowing, until something breaks down, like a spark. This is the source of the great "inductive spike" in _voltage_ that happens when the current through a coil is interrupted. This is also why we put reverse-biased diodes across, for example, relay coils to allow the current someplace to go, so the voltage rise doesn't damage something. The diodes are only reverse biased when the coil is powered! When the power is removed, the _voltage_ reverses so the diode is no longer reverse-biased and the _current_ has someplace to go (back into the coil through the diode, always flowing in the same direction as it did when the coil was powered.)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Jeg on March 30, 2017, 07:48:59 PM
Thank you Tinsel, i added above that changing direction is not the right term. It is actually a break to the flaw. While it was increasing, then it suddenly decreased. The question is: For this very brief time interval where current changes from a max value to zero. Will the magnetic poles of the coil reverse or not?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 30, 2017, 07:54:49 PM
No, the coil tries its best to _resist_ changes in the magnetic field. Since the current does not reverse, neither does the polarity of the field produced by the coil.

Now, when a parallel capacitor is added to form a tank circuit, matters are different, as energy is transferred back and forth between the capacitor and the coil during the tank's "ringing".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 30, 2017, 08:24:35 PM
I think what will help people is just to repeat what TK said about the coil changing from being something that is being energized by the battery and storing energy to something that is discharging energy into the LED load.

The flywheel analogy could be enlightening for some people also.  Voltage is equivalent to applying torque to the flywheel.  The voltage has two possible polarities and the torque has two possible directions.  Current is equivalent to the rotational speed of the flywheel. Current can flow in two possible directions and the speed of rotating flywheel can be in two possible directions.

So, what is the flywheel version of TK's simple circuit?

Imagine a large flywheel on a nice ball bearing mount with a smaller-diameter hand grip so a person can spin up the flywheel with their hands.  So in this example, a person applying torque to the flywheel with human muscle power is equivalent to the battery.  So, you spin up the flywheel with your hands for 10 seconds.  Then, you apply disk brakes to the flywheel until the flywheel stops rotating.  That's it.  The disk brakes are equivalent to the LED.  The disk brakes getting hot from friction is the equivalent to the LED emitting light and heat.

Notice that the flywheel always spins in the same direction.  i.e.; the current through the coil always flows in the same direction.

Simple as cake, a piece of pie.

Now, the fun begins.  Especially for our expanded-mind expanded-consciousness real thinkers that are not bound by the mundane limits of a mundane human imagination and existence.  I speak to the free thinkers that are not mere drones indoctrinated by the current mass brainwashing system that guides us through life like so many sheep.

We know that a flywheel is equivalent to a coil.  So what about RESONANCE, when a coil is resonating at its resonant frequency?  How does that relate to a flywheel?

i.e.; The brass pancake flywheel at its resonant frequency.  Mechanical self-resonance!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Jeg on March 30, 2017, 08:27:49 PM
No, the coil tries its best to _resist_ changes in the magnetic field. Since the current does not reverse, neither does the polarity of the field produced by the coil.

Now, when a parallel capacitor is added to form a tank circuit, matters are different, as energy is transferred back and forth between the capacitor and the coil during the tank's "ringing".

Yes capacitor is an other matter.

 Cemf is reaction to change. It always follows magnetic polarity changes right? It always develops it self in a way so to oppose to magnetic field's changes. Now, when we see a change of cemf across our secondary from negatives to positives. Doesn't that imply that for this brief moment where current decreases to zero there was also a magnetic polarity change? If we would place a field sensor watching the flux. Won't we see a change in magnetic polarity when switch opens?  hmm i need a field sensor.   
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 30, 2017, 08:34:06 PM
Quote
it added above that changing direction is not the right term
This is semantic discussion: the current within coil disconnected from circuit behaves like the driver, who realized, he is stirring too right. So he will turn the steering wheel to the left, he will therefore change direction but  he is still stirring to the right at the beginning of his action, just in gradually smaller degree. The important is, his reaction points to the opposite direction than before. In similar way, the collapsing magnetic field will induce the electromotive force of the opposite polarity than the existing current.

With respect to special behavior of bifilar pancake coil this discussion is completely off topic, with respect to overunity subject it's OT even more. We are visiting this forum because of overunity and if we would want to discuss classical physics phenomena, then there are may way more competent forums for it.

Quote
bunch of drivel about how someone should be banned because they don't agree with you
I don't care if someone is agreeing with me - but he should unconditionally agree with possible existence of overunity - or he has nothing to discuss about just in this very forum. If he still discusses and twaddles something, then he is naturally A) off-topic and even B) disruptive to the topic of this forum. Is it really so difficult to understand it? One of reasons why this forum goes to the hell is, because it's flooded with people who are openly hostile to the overunity subject and who systematically changing subject from it. Such a people should be banned from here one after another - or we will not move forward. Me and many others are still visiting this forum in an effort to find ways for overunity development - not for to convince the people about its existence. If I would want to fight with mainstream crackpots about it, then I've many other forums where to go.

Face it or not: this is forum about cats for cat lovers - not about dogs, elephants or even for enemies of cats.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 30, 2017, 08:45:20 PM
Won't we see a change in magnetic polarity when switch opens?  hmm i need a field sensor.

You absolutely will not.  The current through the coil will drop to zero with no discontinuities at all and you will observe the strength of the corresponding magnetic field drop to zero with no discontinuities at all.

It's incredible how tenacious wrong ideas stay with amateur experimenters because of the bad and incorrect ideas put in their heads by various free energy luminaries.  You can work on your bench for years believing the wrong things and do lots of experiments and effectively partially sleepwalk through them consistently being wrong and believing that you are doing great work.  Evostars is talking about a "Bloch wall" and I think that disinformation can be traced back to the late great John Bedini.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 30, 2017, 08:46:47 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vyg0NX0zh4


The problem with you Zephir, is that you are trying to get people to believe you have a cat, when you are talking about your stuffed toy teddy bear.

You are wrong, you have been proven wrong, and your best course is to apologize and admit your errors and move on.

Or, if you think you can provide your own experiment and demonstration to support your fanciful claims, then by all means DO IT. But we already know you can't, or you would have done so by now.


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 30, 2017, 08:51:37 PM
Yes capacitor is an other matter.

 Cemf is reaction to change. It always follows magnetic polarity changes right? It always develops it self in a way so to oppose to magnetic field's changes. Now, when we see a change of cemf across our secondary from negatives to positives. Doesn't that imply that for this brief moment where current decreases to zero there was also a magnetic polarity change? If we would place a field sensor watching the flux. Won't we see a change in magnetic polarity when switch opens?  hmm i need a field sensor.

Direction of current determines polarity of magnetic field, yes? So if current does not reverse,  neither does the magnetic field. How could it be otherwise?

You can use a ratiometric Hall effect sensor like Allegro A1301 or A1321 or similar, they are cheap and easy to work with.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 30, 2017, 08:54:02 PM
If I would want to fight with mainstream crackpots, then I've many other forums where to go.

LOL  You are a Zanti misfit!

Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails
Just call me Lucifer
'Cause I'm in need of some restraint

Pleased to meet you!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 30, 2017, 08:54:45 PM
You absolutely will not.  The current through the coil will drop to zero with no discontinuities at all and you will observe the strength of the corresponding magnetic field drop to zero with no discontinuities at all.


Well, almost. In reality all real circuits will have some stray capacitance so there will be some ringing. You can see this slight ringing in Jeg's scopeshots. But less sensitive instrumentation -- like my LED   ;)   is good enough to show the truth and demonstrate the principle.

(snip)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 30, 2017, 09:08:00 PM


Well, almost. In reality all real circuits will have some stray capacitance so there will be some ringing. You can see this slight ringing in Jeg's scopeshots. But less sensitive instrumentation -- like my LED   ;)   is good enough to show the truth and demonstrate the principle.

(snip)

Agreed, but he is running really fast.  A larger coil and a much slower clock would reduce the ringing to small patches of peach fuzz.  Plus no schematic so who knows what the hell is really going on.  Wherever the current viewing resistor is it looks like it is not seeing the coil current after the switch-off.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 30, 2017, 09:15:20 PM
Quote
the problem with you Zephir, is that you are trying to get people to believe you have a cat, when you are talking about your stuffed toy teddy bear
I never claimed anything about me. It was you, who said, that overunity is impossible. My person is completely irrelevant for this claim. The problem with you is, you're disrupting the topic of this forum with such an attitude.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 30, 2017, 09:16:53 PM
Repost for the alternative Big Thinkers so this doesn't get lost in the shuffle:

We know that a flywheel is equivalent to a coil.  So what about RESONANCE, when a coil is resonating at its resonant frequency?  How does that relate to a flywheel?

i.e.; The brass pancake flywheel at its resonant frequency.

If you really can describe a flywheel self-resonating then what is so special about a coil self-resonating?  But can you do it?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 30, 2017, 09:22:36 PM
Resonance is classical physics phenomena and it doesn't explain overunity (being itself based on energy conservation laws). In general, if you can derive something with using of classical physics models and laws (which disallow overunity), then you can be also sure, it's irrelevant to overunity mechanism. The reason why the resonance is still significant for many overunity circuits  is, it minimizes the impedance of circuit and thus loses of energy in it.  Many overunity effects are depending on amplitude of oscillations, which gets maximized in resonance frequency.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Jeg on March 30, 2017, 09:23:52 PM
Thanks Guys. One more question please.
You said that when switch opens, current continues moving the same direction across the coil and lights the led. Then wouldn't our secondary show a negative value and then a more negative peak? I am referring to the yellow waveform of mine which is the secondary's voltage output. Obviously that is not happening. Why is that? 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 30, 2017, 09:34:02 PM
@Jed Which circuit are you talking about (diagram)? Where the probes have been attached to it?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 30, 2017, 09:43:02 PM
It was you, who said, that overunity is impossible. My person is completely irrelevant for this claim. The problem with you is, you're disrupting the topic of this forum with such an attitude.

I've been a member of this forum for many years and have survived all attempts from people like you to PROVE ME WRONG. The problem with YOU is that you are making false claims and false statements that will mislead people into wasting their time, money and creative juices on dead-end schemes that will never work.

Please post a link to where I have said that "overunity is impossible". You can't do it, because that is another of your false claims. I have certainly said that particular ideas will never result in overunity, and nobody has been able to prove me wrong about that. But we are here discussing YOUR claim, and the claim of others, that current reverses when a coil is disconnected from power.

I'm still waiting for your answer to my little schematic puzzle. How can the LED be flashing if the current reverses, as you have claimed? Do you think I've faked that demonstration? Where is your own demonstration that refutes me? Nowhere, that is where, because you cannot refute real facts.

Actually, it is YOU who are disrupting this forum with your demonstrably false claims and your refusal to learn, along with your refusal to perform and show experiments of your own in support of your claims.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 30, 2017, 09:48:12 PM
Resonance is classical physics phenomena and it doesn't explain overunity (being itself based on energy conservation laws). In general, if you can derive something with using of classical physics models and laws (which disallow overunity), then you can be also sure, it's irrelevant to overunity mechanism. The reason why the resonance is still significant for many overunity circuits  is, it minimizes the impedance of circuit and thus loses of energy in it.  Many overunity effects are depending on amplitude of oscillations, which gets maximized in resonance frequency.

Once again you refer to "overunity circuits" and "overunity effects". But those circuits and effects do not exist. You cannot demonstrate a single Joule of overunity yourself, nor can you point to _genuine_ demonstrations of others that do. The closest anyone can come is to show scope traces like Partzman's, which are still unverified by testing with other methodology.  Go ahead and PROVE ME WRONG with demonstrations and experiments of your own. You cannot.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 30, 2017, 10:27:14 PM
Thanks Guys. One more question please.
You said that when switch opens, current continues moving the same direction across the coil and lights the led. Then wouldn't our secondary show a negative value and then a more negative peak? I am referring to the yellow waveform of mine which is the secondary's voltage output. Obviously that is not happening. Why is that?

For me personally if you want an answer you have to post your schematic, and show where your test probes are, both for the ground leads and the signal leads.  If there is a transformer, then you must indicate the dot convention of the transformer.  Finally, there is obviously a pulse train that is driving your gate input.  You need to include a capture of that pulse train signal along with one of the other two waveforms from your other scope capture so that I can see what the relative timing is like for the pulse train.

You have to understand the mental stress involved in looking at a scope capture and having to envision and reconstruct what you think the circuit might be in your head.  Even a simple circuit can be stressful with multiple unknowns.  That is in contrast to the relative ease in looking at scope captures and comparing them to a clear and properly annotated schematic.  Then you can focus your mind on answering your question, and not on building an imaginary circuit in your head that might be correct or might be incorrect so that it fits what you see in the scope capture.  I am not going to reverse-engineer an unknown circuit in my head to make it fit your scope capture.

Sorry, no proper documentation, no answer.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 30, 2017, 10:51:15 PM
Quote
Once again you refer to "overunity circuits" and "overunity effects". But those circuits and effects do not exist. You cannot demonstrate a single Joule of overunity yourself, nor can you point to _genuine_ demonstrations of others that do. The closest anyone can come is to show scope traces like Partzman's, which are still unverified by testing with other methodology.  Go ahead and PROVE ME WRONG with demonstrations and experiments of your own. You cannot.

This is common strategy and propaganda tactics of all overunity deniers and trolls. The cold fusion and antigravity findings are dismissed with exactly the same strategy for whole century already. BTW Show me, that electron exist with demonstrations and experiments of your own. You cannot.

Quote
I've been a member of this forum for many years and have survived all attempts from people like you to PROVE ME WRONG.

This is suspicious by itself. Prove, that you aren't agent payed with government for spreading of disbelief in overunity.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on March 30, 2017, 11:58:19 PM
Zephir
Being a new guy maybe you have not seen the efforts Tinsel has made over the years to help
builders here.

he gets out the tools and rolls up his sleeves and explores any valid claims which come along. and as of this writing he still offers to do this from time to time ....

In my opinion you waste a valuable opportunity to explore your OU Circuits here ?

I myself have nothing but respect and gratitude for his efforts ,and I must add most here who actually build and share their work [open source]
feel the same way.

having a starting point for a claim is a very good thing , finding a true Anomaly is not possible until you understand what truly is possible !

Regarding Milehigh ,he has a very good grasp on the Box and what fits inside ,this too is very useful .

having limited resources and time ,most men would like to know the outline of the Box ...so as to not waste time on well trodden ground...
a true anomaly is very rare indeed..

no stone left unturned...

respectfully
Chet K




Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 31, 2017, 12:02:43 AM

For the last 10+ years (something special is to be found in taking your sweet ass time....) I have studied every patent granted to Nikola Tesla which has even the slightest relation to the "Coil for Electromagnets".  In none of those documents does one find Tesla describing the current as "spiraling, or compressing inwards".......


Most theories fall short of a practical application, this is not the case with Tesla.  He presents you with an idea, even better than this, he informs us that he has stopped using "physical capacitors", having discovered, and or realized that he could "so construct the coils themselves as to accomplish the same ultimate object."  I find his documents were prepared for the thinking few, not for parrots, nor for the learned.  Ever take note of those weird statements, the ones that make no sense when you "consider" the information which precedes and the information which follows the weird statement?  These points are completely overlooked by the majority. 


Quote: 


"This is due to the mutual relations existing between the special character of the current, and the self induction and capacity of the coil, the latter quantity being just capable of neutralizing the self-induction for that frequency."


What you can take from this is, if you don't have those mutual relations existing between.....you don't have what he wanted you to have.  If your circuit isn't developing the special character of current.....you don't have what he wanted you to have.  If your circuit doesn't have the necessary mutual relations existing between the special character of the current, and self induction and capacity, you don't have what he wanted you to have.  In other words, your bifilar will be about as useful as milk yielding utters on a bull in heat. This is where many find themselves......a confused mess....



A confused mess...... 



The relation that I find Tesla spoke about was 90°.  The bad news if this is about power, and when isn't it about power, 90° relation means what you want is useless because its reactive.....that is the reality of this world....  Why make a useless relation the foundation of your vision.....probably because it wasn't useless....
what do you think this special character of the current is?
I've been using short pulse discharges. with a IGBT. discharging a capacitor, just like tesla used his quenched spark gaps. to produce short energetic burst of discharge.
and it  rotates through the spiral coil. In the process creating a dielectric field between the windings due to the voltage difference.

your statement "confused mess" i find disrespectful, not constructive. But thats in line with alot of other posts here.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 31, 2017, 03:00:23 AM
"This is due to the mutual relations existing between the special character of the current, and the self induction and capacity of the coil, the latter quantity being just capable of neutralizing the self-induction for that frequency."

What you can take from this is, if you don't have those mutual relations existing between.....you don't have what he wanted you to have.  If your circuit isn't developing the special character of current.....you don't have what he wanted you to have.  If your circuit doesn't have the necessary mutual relations existing between the special character of the current, and self induction and capacity, you don't have what he wanted you to have.  In other words, your bifilar will be about as useful as milk yielding utters on a bull in heat. This is where many find themselves......a confused mess....

There is nothing to be read in between the lines with respect to the "special" character of the current.  Tesla knew full well that his coil current was not manifesting a 90 degree phase lag like it should have done if an inductor was the load.  He also knew that it was not leading by 90 degrees like if a capacitor was the load.  So he had a coil where the excitation voltage and the resulting current where in phase, which merited the term "special."  There was a exchange of electric field energy and magnetic field energy in his coil such that when you viewed it across the two terminals at the right excitation frequency it looked like an ordinary resistive piece of wire.  In the context of the times, that was "special."  Beyond that, there is nothing else to read into what Tesla was saying and he was not hinting at something extraordinary that you are supposed to link with other "mysterious phrases" in other documents to discover the "hidden secret" that he put in his documents like some puzzle to "protect himself from the Powers That Be."
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 31, 2017, 03:29:16 AM
what do you think this special character of the current is?
I've been using short pulse discharges. with a IGBT. discharging a capacitor, just like tesla used his quenched spark gaps. to produce short energetic burst of discharge.
and it  rotates through the spiral coil. In the process creating a dielectric field between the windings due to the voltage difference.

There is nothing special about the "special" current.  Or you can say the fact that the current is in phase with the voltage makes it special because that is not "supposed" to happen.

So I take it that the IGBT momentarily connects a large capacitor charged to a certain voltage to the pancake coil for a brief instant and then the IGBT switches off and then the pancake coil is effectively isolated again and rings down.  I assume that the ring-down event could be observed with a scope probe across the coil.

Yes, you set up a "dielectric field" between the windings that might store a few microjoules of "dielectric energy" in the coil.  During the short pulse when the IGBT is on you will also induce some current to flow through the coil and perhaps that will store of few tens of microjoules of magnetic energy.

Note:  There is a very good chance that the majority of the few tens of microjoules of stored magnetic energy actually burns off inside the IGBT during the event time of the IGBT switch-off.

Then when the IGBT switches off the pancake coil has a short epileptic seizure where the few microjoules of transient capacitive energy and the (possibly) few tens of microjoules of inductive energy bounce around inside the pancake coil and burn off in a combination of resistive dissipative energy and EM radiation energy.  The energy bounces back and forth within the physical form of the coil which would only be a fun thing to investigate for some finite element modeling junkie to crunch down at a fine granularity.  He or she could power up 10 octa-core PC boxes for two weeks and show you a really cool video clip after the big crunch-down.

Alternatively a lay person like yourself can see what is presumably a tiny ring-down with your scope event trigger.   And if you put an AM radio next to the pancake coil you might hear a tiny "tick" telling you that the epileptic seizure just took place and the pancake coil broadcast that event out into the Universe.

And then you can put on Peggy Lee and listen to "Is That All There Is?"

And this entire event can be quite accurately modeled with a flywheel.

Oops, gotta go, the phone in my shoe is ringing...
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 31, 2017, 05:49:19 AM
This is common strategy and propaganda tactics of all overunity deniers and trolls. The cold fusion and antigravity findings are dismissed with exactly the same strategy for whole century already. BTW Show me, that electron exist with demonstrations and experiments of your own. You cannot.
No "antigravity" device has ever been shown to be real, and I've tested quite a few of them myself, and have even saved at least one big investor millions of dollars by pointing out AND PROVING that he was being scammed by the people who presented a fake one to him.  The "cold fusion" story is still not finished, but certainly there are scammers and frauds in that area too, Andrea Rossi being the foremost one at the moment. As far as the existence of electrons goes... you are proving it yourself by using a computer. Do you think the people who designed your computer deny the existence of electrons? Do you think CRTs and electron-beam lithography work in spite of the designers' "wrong" belief in electrons? You have passed right through folly and have made it all the way to comedy now. You get a ROFL for this! And of course I can perform my own demonstrations and experiments that prove the existence of electrons. I still have CRT oscilloscopes after all. And I use devices manufactured by EBL all the time... and so do you! ROFL!

"dismissed with exactly the same strategy".... that strategy being a simple demand for solid experimental PROOF !!

Quote



This is suspicious by itself. Prove, that you aren't agent payed with government for spreading of disbelief in overunity.


Now you are showing your paranoia, which is a mental disease. You are making the claim, it is up to YOU to prove it.  Prove that I am some kind of government paid agent!

Besides, my paycheck seems to be late this month.   

You do realize that you are a troll, I hope.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 31, 2017, 06:01:29 AM
(snip)

You have to understand the mental stress involved in looking at a scope capture and having to envision and reconstruct what you think the circuit might be in your head.  Even a simple circuit can be stressful with multiple unknowns.
 
(snip)


Here you go, MH, observe and relax.    ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTPfRMe1Fs0
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 31, 2017, 06:10:26 AM
Here you go, MH, observe and relax.    ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTPfRMe1Fs0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTPfRMe1Fs0)

You have heard of xes on a phone?  That's the closest thing I have seen to xes on a scope!

Meanwhile, the Fifth Column does other dirty things on a phone!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on March 31, 2017, 09:10:33 AM
 the tiny little sine ringing after the pulse,  is the resonant frequency of the bifilar pancake coil.
if pulsed at the frequencyof that ringing the voltage rises, it becomes a continuous sine.
with a lot more energy than a few micro joules.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 31, 2017, 11:03:13 AM
the tiny little sine ringing after the pulse,  is the resonant frequency of the bifilar pancake coil.
if pulsed at the frequencyof that ringing the voltage rises, it becomes a continuous sine.
with a lot more energy than a few micro joules.

That's great that you can observe a ring-down with a single pulse from the IGBT.  That's what's known as the "impulse response" from the coil and and that tells you nearly everything you need to know about the coil.  Yes you are going to get a resonant rise in the response from the coil if you hit it with a series of impulses at the self-resonant frequency of the coil, but that's not really giving you any new information.

My recommendation would be to then take your signal generator and "tickle" the coil at the self resonant frequency to find out if the pancake coil is resonating as a series or as a parallel LC resonator.  You absolutely don't need to drive the coil with the 50-ohm output from the signal generator.  I would suggest putting a 200-ohm resistor in series with the signal from the generator, and then try a 500-ohm resistor in series.  Naturally the signal generator has to be set on a sine wave.

You use the 200-ohm resistor (or the 500-ohm resistor) as a current viewing resistor.  So will there be a lot of current flowing through the signal feed to the coil at resonance or will there be almost no current flowing through the signal feed to the coil at resonance?  That is the big question of the hour.

So, if you really wanted to look at the voltage across the in-line resistor then one option is either your signal generator needs to be isolated from the mains or your scope needs to be isolated from the mains.  If you don't have a mains isolation transformer there are many other ways around that issue.  Any thoughts?  For example, who says that you have to isolate the signal generator itself?  Why not just isolate the signal from the signal generator itself and then the 200-ohm resistor and the coil itself will be isolated.

If you do the test and you see current flowing through the signal line at resonance then you should see almost no voltage across the coil itself.  Or if you see almost no current flowing through the signal line you should see a voltage across the coil itself that is the same as the signal generator voltage.  When you first do the test you only want to look at the voltage across the 200-ohm resistor.  You do not want to put a scope probe across the coil itself because that is disturbing the coil.

If you can figure out your isolation issues then the logical test to do is a full frequency sweep to see what's going on.  You may find different resonant modes at different frequencies.  If your setup is working smoothly, you might want to do a sweep with a 1K-ohm series resistor.

This is all an interesting investigation and could be a great example for other bifilar pancake coil enthusiasts.  I don't know if you have the the experience and the bench skills to do all of this.

A disclaimer is that I am just applying my knowledge from way back when and I have never done a test like this.  Somebody else may correct me or suggest something completely different.

Finally, here is what you don't want to hear because of all of the musings that you have been reading from the various players in the free energy cottage industry that have convinced you that "there is another way" and that you know better after reading all of that stuff.  What you don't want to hear is that the magnetic field generated by your series bifilar pancake coil just stores electrical energy in the 3D volume around the coil by stressing the space with a subtended magnetic field.  There is a big "ho hum" from a lot of people about that fact.  If you notice, essentially all of my comments have ignored the magnetic field and I turn slightly green when you talk about the "spirals" and the "vorticies."  The simple fact is that you can analyze the coil without even thinking about the magnetic field at all assuming there are no magnetic field coupling effects in the testing.

So, if we suppose that you find what the resonant mode for the coil is at the observed self-resonant frequency from your impulse testing, and then you do the full frequency sweep to look for any other resonant modes, then where do you go from there?  Or is it a big secret?

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 31, 2017, 11:33:18 AM
Quote
No "antigravity" device has ever been shown to be real, and I've tested quite a few of them myself
And what? I tested the existence of electrons multiple-times - and I never detected any with my devices. This is supposed to serve as an argument?

List of experimental EMDrive results (http://emdrive.wiki/Experimental_Results)

Quote
You are making the claim, it is up to YOU to prove it.
Prove that overunity and antigravity doesn't exist. It's your claim, it is up to YOU to prove it.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Searcher1o1 on March 31, 2017, 02:12:31 PM
Why would the circuit be off topic, you need a circuit to run your bifilar coil.
Expand the circuit, stage it up add phases.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 31, 2017, 02:33:53 PM
And what? I tested the existence of electrons multiple-times - and I never detected any with my devices. This is supposed to serve as an argument?


You continue to demonstrate your ignorance and  incompetence. When will you tire of this? You are communicating with me on a device that DEPENDS on the existence of electrons for its operation and even for the very fabrication of its component parts. And without you posting the details of your "devices" and your "tests" it is of course impossible to evaluate your claims except to point out that they are contrary to hundreds of years of experimentation and engineering by thousands of real scientists and engineers. Frankly I doubt that you have any competence in these matters. Feel free to PROVE ME WRONG by showing your work.

Have you ever heard of the Electron Microscope? How about Electron Spin Resonance Spectroscopy? Electron Beam Lithography? Electron Beam Welding? How about Cathode Ray Tubes ffs? If you do not think electrons exist you have a big hill to climb, explaining how these devices and many others "actually" work according to your conjectures (which do not even rise to the level of "theory".)

Quote

List of experimental EMDrive results (http://emdrive.wiki/Experimental_Results)
Prove that overunity and antigravity doesn't exist. It's your claim, it is up to YOU to prove it.


And now you are demonstrating that you will sacrifice logical and critical thinking in order to continue to troll me. No, it is the claimants who claim things contrary to known physics, like yourself, who have the burden of proof, and at some level you actually do know this. But it is more important for you to try to put me down, so you sacrifice your own personal integrity to do so. WITHOUT EVER PROVIDING EVIDENCE of your own!

By the way, there are far more negative and null results from the EMdrive experimentation than there are positive results. In addition, as the researchers like Sonny White and Paul March refine their experiments and gain expertise in performing them, the magnitude of "positive" results continues to get smaller and smaller. Of course you will choose to ignore results that do not conform to your conjectures and you will ignore the implications of results that tend to vanish into the noise floor as experimental technique is refined.

You've been soundly refuted already and you have nothing to say about that, except to try to weasel out of what your original claim actually was. Maybe you would be happier posting your nonsense at Energetic Forum, where "trolls", that is, critical thinkers and experimenters like me, are much more strongly discouraged than we are here.

After all, there have been dozens of "free energy" devices built and talked about there. My favorite one is the "Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machine" of UFOPolitics -- which produces so much free energy that he is running his home and shop on it. No... wait.... that's wrong, he isn't, he's still connected to his local grid and is still paying for his juice. After hundreds of pages of thread and after suckering dozens of people into "replicating" his machines, he has gone on to other things and nobody, but nobody, has ever made a single excess Joule of energy from their efforts. But they have wasted untold hours, untold dollars and untold energy trying. Maybe you could help them out.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 31, 2017, 02:40:12 PM
Why would the circuit be off topic, you need a circuit to run your bifilar coil.
Expand the circuit, stage it up add phases.

Do you believe that using a flat Tesla Bifilar wound coil would produce a different result? Do you think my demonstration is somehow in error? Go ahead and demonstrate it yourself then. 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on March 31, 2017, 02:45:33 PM
Zephir
thank you for the very nice page

http://emdrive.wiki/Experimental_Results

I honestly believe you have missed the point here ,I don't believe for one instant that fellows posting here
ALL fellows ...don't believe in the potential of new sources of energy harvesting


if someone walked in the door tomorrow still smoking and holding a fried/burnt umbrella ,with a Claim
" I finally figured it out ...I can call the lightning at will. 24/7 anywhere on earth from a clear blue sky "

that would be plausible ...if he started to levitate while he summoned exotic static charges ?
also plausible...

here a man should run towards scrutiny when he has a claim, not shun it.

unfortunately it seems when fellows make discoveries they run to lawyers ...and the Gov't mouse traps [patent office]

a patent ??
never hand a man a stick to beat you with



Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 31, 2017, 02:56:19 PM
Glendower:
 I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur:
 Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them?
Glendower:
 Why, I can teach you, cousin, to command
 The devil
Hotspur:
 And I can teach thee, coz, to shame the devil—
 By telling the truth. Tell truth and shame the devil.

 William Shakespeare, Henry The Fourth, Part I Act 3, scene 1, 52–58 (https://www.owleyes.org/text/henry-4-part-1/read/act-iii-scene-1/root-71806-17/81025)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 31, 2017, 02:59:38 PM
Did you miss this, Ramset?

Quote
By the way, there are far more negative and null results from the EMdrive experimentation than there are positive results. In addition, as the researchers like Sonny White and Paul March refine their experiments and gain expertise in performing them, the magnitude of "positive" results continues to get smaller and smaller. Of course you will choose to ignore results that do not conform to your conjectures and you will ignore the implications of results that tend to vanish into the noise floor as experimental technique is refined.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on March 31, 2017, 03:06:03 PM
Tinsel
every journey starts with a step ,surely the pioneers in all these fields are looking under every stone .

You mentioned electron beam microscopes ...few years back we had a project where we were looking to buy one
seemed every scope on the planet was up for sale on EBay [tons in south Korea]
they had all become obsolete ...

turns out the guys who can see the most [tiniest] have the biggest edge ,and the guys who can't should stay home until they can.

the ever smaller world we work in ..."nano" is going to rewrite the books.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 31, 2017, 03:20:18 PM
Tinsel
every journey starts with a step ,surely the pioneers in all these fields are looking under every stone .

You mentioned electron beam microscopes ...few years back we had a project where we were looking to buy one
seemed every scope on the planet was up for sale on EBay [tons in south Korea]
they had all become obsolete ...

turns out the guys who can see the most [tiniest] have the biggest edge ,and the guys who can't should stay home until they can.

the ever smaller world we work in ..."nano" is going to rewrite the books.

Yes, I can believe that. At the place where I used to work-- you know where-- we had not one but TWO electron microscopes, one ancient SEM and one more modern TEM, and I learned how to operate both of them. The TEM, worth about 600,000 dollars on the surplus market, was actually _given_ to the lab by its former owner, a researcher at one of the national research universities there. When the researcher went on to other things, the University needed the space and so gave the TEM to whomever could come and extract it from the basement room and cart it away. So we did. And reassembled it in our lab and got it working again. Actually the TEM itself was installed in one room and its giant power supply, vacuum pumps and air compressors (for pneumatic valves) were installed in the next room, with cabling and hoses run through the walls. It is still in use today. I think the SEM is mostly used for electron beam spectroscopy these days to confirm the composition of exotic ceramics.

The ones you saw on the surplus market were of course replaced with more modern, more capable Electron Microscope instruments at their former homes.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 31, 2017, 03:29:15 PM
Wow, a mysterious brown envelope appeared at my door this morning with no markings on it at all.  I am attaching a photo of the contents of the envelope here.

Will a large-signal measurement of the inductance of a bifilar pancake coil be different from a small-signal measurement of the inductance of a bifilar pancake coil?

I bet you they would be different!

EDIT:  I had to edit everything and change "capacitance" to "inductance."  It must be the the psychic energy beams from Planet Zanti that were trying to throw me off the trail!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Erfinder on March 31, 2017, 05:22:30 PM
There is nothing to be read in between the lines with respect to the "special" character of the current.  Tesla knew full well that his coil current was not manifesting a 90 degree phase lag like it should have done if an inductor was the load.  He also knew that it was not leading by 90 degrees like if a capacitor was the load.  So he had a coil where the excitation voltage and the resulting current where in phase, which merited the term "special."  There was a exchange of electric field energy and magnetic field energy in his coil such that when you viewed it across the two terminals at the right excitation frequency it looked like an ordinary resistive piece of wire.  In the context of the times, that was "special."  Beyond that, there is nothing else to read into what Tesla was saying and he was not hinting at something extraordinary that you are supposed to link with other "mysterious phrases" in other documents to discover the "hidden secret" that he put in his documents like some puzzle to "protect himself from the Powers That Be."


Your opinion has been noted and added to my file 13. 

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 31, 2017, 06:53:50 PM
Your opinion has been noted and added to my file 13.

Yeah, sure.  Your trip whenever you talk about Tesla or some circuit is to scold people about some supposed amazing profound significance that they have to go into deep deep contemplation to *truly* understand.  "Tesla laid out the bread crumbs for you, you just have to follow them and discover for yourself what the significance *really* is."  I have read that one too many times from you.  That's why I gave you that extended little treatise.  Your pitch is a variation on the masochist scolding that you hear from all sorts of free energy enthusiasts about clips of supposed free energy circuits that you see on YouTube.  They always say, "The inventor is NOT supposed to share his work with you!  You are supposed to take still frames from his clip and talk about them and try to reverse-engineer what you see for the next nine months!  Don't you know it's supposed to be that way?"

Going back to the "special current," things aren't always so deep and so profound that you need to sit like Buddha for 40 days and contemplate your scope traces.  So there is indeed nothing of note that is out of the ordinary with the term "special" with respect to the currents in the bifilar pancake coil.  There is no "deeper level of understanding" that can only be gained though deep thought.  If you want to go into contemplation about the word "special" for the next two years, that's your choice.

So you shouldn't throw what I said in the trash bin.  TK said the geometry for the pancake coil helps with avoiding high-voltage arcing when playing with Tesla coils.  But who really needs a Tesla coil?  At this point in time they are novelty items, there is a clip on YouTube where two Tesla coils play Sweet Home Alabama with stereo modulated high-voltage lightning bolts.  It's a big hit at bar mitzvahs.

That Tesla patent for the bifilar pancake coil has its own cult of personality.  It attracts all sorts of attention and thousands of amateur experimenters make pancake coils and play with them.  There is no elusive pot of gold.  It's just a coil.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Jeg on March 31, 2017, 08:52:26 PM
  There is no elusive pot of gold.  It's just a coil.

No it's not. It has the right geometry for displacement currents to be developed. I wonder how you missed that.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Erfinder on March 31, 2017, 08:55:26 PM
Yeah, sure.  Your trip whenever you talk about Tesla or some circuit is to scold people about some supposed amazing profound significance that they have to go into deep deep contemplation to *truly* understand.  "Tesla laid out the bread crumbs for you, you just have to follow them and discover for yourself what the significance *really* is."  I have read that one too many times from you.  That's why I gave you that extended little treatise.  Your pitch is a variation on the masochist scolding that you hear from all sorts of free energy enthusiasts about clips of supposed free energy circuits that you see on YouTube.  They always say, "The inventor is NOT supposed to share his work with you!  You are supposed to take still frames from his clip and talk about them and try to reverse-engineer what you see for the next nine months!  Don't you know it's supposed to be that way?"

Going back to the "special current," things aren't always so deep and so profound that you need to sit like Buddha for 40 days and contemplate your scope traces.  So there is indeed nothing of note that is out of the ordinary with the term "special" with respect to the currents in the bifilar pancake coil.  There is no "deeper level of understanding" that can only be gained though deep thought.  If you want to go into contemplation about the word "special" for the next two years, that's your choice.

So you shouldn't throw what I said in the trash bin.  TK said the geometry for the pancake coil helps with avoiding high-voltage arcing when playing with Tesla coils.  But who really needs a Tesla coil?  At this point in time they are novelty items, there is a clip on YouTube where two Tesla coils play Sweet Home Alabama with stereo modulated high-voltage lightning bolts.  It's a big hit at bar mitzvahs.

That Tesla patent for the bifilar pancake coil has its own cult of personality.  It attracts all sorts of attention and thousands of amateur experimenters make pancake coils and play with them.  There is no elusive pot of gold.  It's just a coil.


Not a fan of file 13 eh....


no prob..... 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcmiWxCu8So



Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 31, 2017, 09:16:35 PM
No it's not. It has the right geometry for displacement currents to be developed. I wonder how you missed that.

The problem with your statement is you are not saying what is so special about displacement currents.  What advantage or application does this geometry give you that supports displacement currents between the wires of the coil that might store a few microjoules of energy?

As TK said, you can put a capacitor in series or in parallel with a coil and then you can have your displacement currents very easily.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 31, 2017, 09:18:13 PM

Not a fan of file 13 eh....

no prob..... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcmiWxCu8So (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcmiWxCu8So)

Wow you are so smooth but I notice that you are completely mute on the technical aspects.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 31, 2017, 09:18:22 PM
Quote
I don't believe for one instant that fellows posting here ALL fellows ...don't believe in the potential of new sources of energy harvesting
This is an appeal to ridicule (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule), I didn't say it. The patoskeptics are just leading this forum in number of posts per person.

Quote
there are far more negative and null results from the EMdrive experimentation than there are positive results

Prove it - most of results in this lists are positive, instead (http://emdrive.wiki/Experimental_Results). BTW The yield of complex microprocessors is bellow 50% - should this serve an evidence, that these processors don't exist, according to you?

Quote
after hundreds of pages of thread and after suckering dozens of people into "replicating" his machines, he has gone on to other things and nobody
Because of disruptive agenda of trolls like TinselKoala or MileHigh. The guys who were sucessfull with overunity don't visit this forum because of them.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 31, 2017, 09:28:38 PM
This is an appeal to ridicule (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule), I didn't say it. The patoskeptics are just leading this forum in number of posts per person.

On this thread we are not debating free energy.  We are just discussing a pancake coil.  Can't you discuss within that framework?  I suggested a procedure to Evostars for doing a frequency sweep of his coil.  That's an example of something on topic.

And stop calling people trolls.  I am contributing to this thread and I am on topic.

Feel free to start your own thread where you seem to be claiming that you can demonstrate over unity with a pancake coil.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Erfinder on March 31, 2017, 09:59:03 PM
Wow you are so smooth but I notice that you are completely mute on the technical aspects.


Speaking your language empowers you....  Me no speak " (your brand of) technical aspects...." STARVE!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Jeg on March 31, 2017, 10:06:50 PM
The problem with your statement is you are not saying what is so special about displacement currents.  What advantage or application does this geometry give you that supports displacement currents between the wires of the coil that might store a few microjoules of energy?


Their specialty is described very well by the inventor. They make a so intense electric field between adjacent turns that solenoids cannot reach. Pancake geometry helps in that displacement current moves perpendicular to the flux movement, like what happens between two normal plates of metal forming a cap. Many applications depending on what you want to do. An interesting application would be to use it for a controlled spark gap. Like here back in 2014
http://overunity.com/14198/a-method-for-static-gap-control-for-high-bps-rates/msg382802/#msg382802

(I have abandoned this toy as it was using MOT's and was very dangerous to control it and play with safety. Don't recommend. Video is very blurry and sound lags some seconds )   
 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on March 31, 2017, 10:07:39 PM
This is an appeal to ridicule (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule), I didn't say it. The patoskeptics are just leading this forum in number of posts per person.

You have no idea what you are talking about. I have a lot of posts for several reasons. Number one is that I have been a member of this forum for many years. Number two is that I engaged the notorious Rosemary Ainslie over several threads that went on for years until she was very definitively proved to be wrong and indeed to have falsified data in a long series of streamed video experimentation by her own team and led by Poynt99 and the late MarkE. Number three is because I've helped many people, just as Cifta has done, to get their various projects working, notably Joule Thiefs and Bedini motors, and along with MileHigh we developed and discussed the "better than Bedini" MHOP. What have you done? Nothing, that's what, mister Newbie. I'm proud of my post count. Yes, I point out errors when I see them, and your posts are full of errors, which you won't acknowledge even when you are soundly proven wrong. As we have demonstrated over the last couple of days.

Quote
Prove it - most of results in this lists are positive, instead (http://emdrive.wiki/Experimental_Results). BTW The yield of complex microprocessors is bellow 50% - should this serve an evidence, that these processors don't exist, according to you?


Do you know what a "straw man argument" is? Look it up. It is a wellknown logical fallacy used by people who have no rational argument. Your mention of the yield of microprocessors is a STRAW MAN and is irrelevant to the FACT that your wiki list simply does not include many failed EMdrive experiments. Did YOU write that wiki article?

Quote
Because of disruptive agenda of trolls like TinselKoala or MileHigh. The guys who were sucessfull with overunity don't visit this forum because of them.

Here you are referring to the comment about UFOPolitics and his "Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machine". Again, your claim here is not true at all. Go and read that enormous thread at EF. Here's a link to his claim of OVERUNITY GALORE:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/11885-my-asymmetric-electrodynamic-machines-95.html#post218245 (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/11885-my-asymmetric-electrodynamic-machines-95.html#post218245)
Note the date. Note that there are in fact _very few_ disbelievers posting, and neither I nor MH have ever posted there. Much later the believers start to discover that there is no "overunity galore" and in fact no overunity at all, but just a bunch of failed NTE mosfets, badly produced motor parts and burned out components. Along with a bunch of nicely done graphics of motors that in the end do not produce a single extra Joule of energy and are in fact quite INEFFICIENT.

And there are no "guys who were successful with overunity" posting here or there. There are many claimants, and there are some tantalizing preliminary results from genuine and honest researchers like Partzman, but they are all still buying their electricity from the grid, just like you, and no one has credibly demonstrated any self runner or daisychained device. If you think they have... what are YOU doing here then?

You have earned yourself another ROFL.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 31, 2017, 10:14:06 PM

Speaking your language empowers you....  Me no speak " (your brand of) technical aspects...." STARVE!

Right, and here is the ambrosia that has been eluding you all this time as well as for 95% of the amateur experimenters that play with coils for years:

A coil integrates on voltage with respect to time to yield a current flow through the coil.  The amount of current flow is also inversely proportional to the inductance of the coil.  A coil differentiates on the current flowing through the coil with respect to time to yield an opposing voltage to the change in current flow.  The amount of voltage is also proportional to the inductance of the coil.

There is your food, yet you no speak that.  Without undertaking to try to understand those four sentences you continue to starve.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Erfinder on March 31, 2017, 10:34:40 PM
Right, and here is the ambrosia that has been eluding you all this time as well as for 95% of the amateur experimenters that play with coils for years:

A coil integrates on voltage with respect to time to yield a current flow through the coil.  The amount of current flow is also inversely proportional to the inductance of the coil.  A coil differentiates on the current flowing through the coil with respect to time to yield an opposing voltage to the change in current flow.  The amount of voltage is also proportional to the inductance of the coil.

There is your food, yet you no speak that.  Without undertaking to try to understand those four sentences you continue to starve.


I have absolutely no interest in your memorized perspective.  You would be as smart as the folk you plagiarize, if only you could pick up where they left off.....  No....all anyone gets from you is a fucking playback.....  I can read.....  What you claim to know, anyone can know.  What you try to drill into the heads of those you consider less than yourself, can be found in countless books, and web pages.  I don't want nor need a lesson from you, the net is a much better instructor, can't say I miss the god complex when doing a google search........


ambrosia....give me a fucking break..... more like Grape nuts..... thats right, I equate what you give to a box of (stale) dry shit.....


You are oblivious regarding what I know, but you have my permission to continue thinking you aren't....
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 31, 2017, 10:51:05 PM
Their specialty is described very well by the inventor. They make a so intense electric field between adjacent turns that solenoids cannot reach. Pancake geometry helps in that displacement current moves perpendicular to the flux movement, like what happens between two normal plates of metal forming a cap. Many applications depending on what you want to do. An interesting application would be to use it for a controlled spark gap. Like here back in 2014
http://overunity.com/14198/a-method-for-static-gap-control-for-high-bps-rates/msg382802/#msg382802 (http://overunity.com/14198/a-method-for-static-gap-control-for-high-bps-rates/msg382802/#msg382802)

(I have abandoned this toy as it was using MOT's and was very dangerous to control it and play with safety. Don't recommend. Video is very blurry and sound lags some seconds )

As TK said in the modern era we use capacitors.  Think about this:  You are fascinated by the fact that a bifilar pancake coil can store energy between the adjacent turns of the coil.  Say that there is 50 volts between turns and there are 10 turns.  Well, you can put a 500-volt capacitor across an entire conventional solenoid coil and get the same results.

To put it another way, you can replace a bifilar pancake coil with a regular solenoid coil in parallel or in series with a very small high-voltage capacitor.

Yes, there may be some spark-gap applications for bifilar pancake coils like you are discussing.  That is perfectly valid.  But those are more mechanical issues than electrical issues.   Let's play a "black box" game.  Suppose you put a bifilar pancake coil inside a black box and the only thing you see are the two terminals for the coil on the outside of the black box.  When you test those terminals you will say that you observed that there was a property of inductance telling you that there was an inductor inside the box.  You also were able to observe a self-resonant frequency for the coil indicating that it possessed some inherent capacitance.  That is all fine and good.  However, on a fundamental level, all that you really observed was that there was an imperfect real-world coil inside the black box.  The fact that it was a bifilar pancake coil made no difference to you.  In that sense there is nothing special about a bifilar pancake coil.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on March 31, 2017, 11:00:23 PM
I have absolutely no interest in your memorized perspective.  You would be as smart as the folk you plagiarize, if only you could pick up where they left off.....  No....all anyone gets from you is a fucking playback.....  I can read.....  What you claim to know, anyone can know.  What you try to drill into the heads of those you consider less than yourself, can be found in countless books, and web pages.  I don't want nor need a lesson from you, the net is a much better instructor, can't say I miss the god complex when doing a google search........

ambrosia....give me a fucking break..... more like Grape nuts..... thats right, I equate what you give to a box of (stale) dry shit.....

You are oblivious regarding what I know, but you have my permission to continue thinking you aren't....

It's not about memorizing the knowledge or reciting it like a book playback.  It's about understanding it and applying it, and that includes in real life on your bench.  Don't play strawman on me please.  Relative to what goes on around here, understanding how a mysterious coil works is ambrosia.

If you want to be the anti or alternative knowledge rebel, that's your prerogative.  But when someone is discussing their circuit often it really is a nuts and bolts kind of thing and not an exploration into semantics and intangibles
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Erfinder on March 31, 2017, 11:14:21 PM
It's not about memorizing the knowledge or reciting it like a book playback.  It's about understanding it and applying it, and that includes in real life on your bench.  Don't play strawman on me please.  Relative to what goes on around here, understanding how a mysterious coil works is ambrosia.

If you want to be the anti or alternative knowledge rebel, that's your prerogative.  But when someone is discussing their circuit often it really is a nuts and bolts kind of thing and not an exploration into semantics and intangibles


Whatever.....


I'm done with whatever this is.......got better things to do with my time.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on March 31, 2017, 11:38:51 PM
Quote
You are fascinated by the fact that a bifilar pancake coil can store energy between the adjacent turns of the coil.  Say that there is 50 volts between turns and there are 10 turns.  Well, you can put a 500-volt capacitor across an entire conventional solenoid coil and get the same results. To put it another way, you can replace a bifilar pancake coil with a regular solenoid coil in parallel or in series with a very small high-voltage capacitor.


The distributed impedance works very differently than the discrete one in HF circuits. It leads for example into so-called metamaterial behavior of circuits, which simply has no analogy in classical circuits - so it's a source of a new quality. The distributed capacity isn't the source of bifilar coil overunity though - in the same way, like any other capacity (or resonance) by itself. Once something can be described with classical law (which are energy conservation based), then it also doesn't lead to overunity. But the distributed impedance is undoubtedly more close to overunity, than the discrete one just because of its new emergent quality.

You cannot replicate the Akula / Kapanadze devices simply by wiring their coils according to diagram: their geometry, orientation and size are also important. But you're person willing to say, that it even doesn't matter, if some coil is bifilar or just normal one with some capacitor attached. With such way of thinking you're literally wasted for the whole overunity thing. Now we can only discuss, if this way of thinking is the product of your ignorance or just evil intentions to confuse and systematically mislead the readers of this forum.

Quote
On this thread we are not debating free energy.  We are just discussing a pancake coil.  Can't you discuss within that framework?
Nope, because this forum is about overunity. If you want to understand overunity, you should remain focused to subject instead of distracted with classical aspects of electronics. I'm just explaining you, why you never succeed with overunity experiments: you're systematically focused just to the aspects of classical circuits, which prohibits you to understand it. The sentence of yours, that "you can replace the distributed impedance with discrete one" illustrates clearly your problem with thinking.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 01, 2017, 12:30:42 AM
Zephir
If you can highlight a Pancake coil experiment which shows a true anomaly

we can probably get quality replicators lined up out the door...

Please post one ??

respectfully
Chet K

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 01, 2017, 02:36:00 AM
The distributed impedance works very differently than the discrete one in HF circuits. It leads for example into so-called metamaterial behavior of circuits, which simply has no analogy in classical circuits - so it's a source of a new quality.

You really are a hoot.  Just like some well known people have claimed that giant pulse motors work differently in the Southern Hemisphere as compared to the Northern Hemisphere.

I will just restate that you are welcome to start your own thread and just do it.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 01, 2017, 03:38:39 AM
OK Zephir you have made several ridiculous claims in this thread with absolutely nothing to back up those claims.  But let's try to have just a little bit of a discussion.  In your own words what does distributed impedence mean?  What do you consider a HF circuit to be?  And lastly, what the heck is metamaterial behavior?

If you can't describe what those things mean to you then you need to take a hike far far away because if you can't explain what they mean to you then you are just here being a troll and hindering those that are actually trying to learn.  Chet has asked for an example of an anomaly that you think indicates OU.  I am asking for you to give some kind of sense to the words you are using.  It is time to man up and either admit you don't have any thing but a bunch of words or back those words up.

And you have never answered the question asked by some of us about your claim there are no such thing as electrons.  If they don't exist then explain how an electron beam welder can weld.  Do you even know what an electron beam welder is without looking it up?  How can a CRT screen show pictures if there are no electrons energizing the phosphor dots?  How can those things work if electrons don't exist?  I am really looking forward to that explanation since I have worked on both of them for many years.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 01, 2017, 04:19:25 AM
TK:

This is an off-topic but techie clip that I think is going to blow your mind!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_S9YsD9Y0c

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Searcher1o1 on April 01, 2017, 04:36:00 AM
Quote
       own team and led by Poynt99 and the late MarkE   
TK what happened to Mark
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 01, 2017, 05:36:20 AM
TK what happened to Mark

Sadly, he died, suddenly and unexpectedly. No, I don't know just how, perhaps heart attack. Just days after his last post here.
He was a good friend and one of the top 5 EEs in his field in the world. We were very lucky to have him here on this forum. RIP.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 01, 2017, 05:41:18 AM
TK:

This is an off-topic but techie clip that I think is going to blow your mind!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_S9YsD9Y0c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_S9YsD9Y0c)

MileHigh

Heh... yes, Dave is a hoot all right. I watch his videos regularly and am a member of the forum.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 01, 2017, 09:12:58 AM
Carrol
RE The request to Zephir

just an artifact or anomaly ,doesn't have to be OU at all. [would be nice tho...

thx
Chet

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 01, 2017, 10:33:11 AM
Quote
what does distributed impedance mean
See distributed element model (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_element_model), simulation (http://www.falstad.com/circuit/e-tlstand.html) illustrates, that its behavior cannot be replaced with simple discrete circuit.
Quote
HF circuit to be
High Frequency circuit, of course. Metamaterial circuits (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-ring_resonator) enable the propagation of waves faster than EM wave (http://i.imgur.com/Z0poIJV.gif) inside them and/or against their source - and this is the point, in which the things become interesting for overunity, as they violate the causality of common electromagnetic circuits. These things are commonly known in scientific circles, but until you don't know about them, then you're in position of tribesmen (http://www.scout.com/college/marshall/forums/4634-the-bull-sheet-2-0/15337071-the-cargo-cult), who are constructing airplanes and jeeps out of palm fronds and bamboo, because they believe, they will bring them cargo and food.
Quote
And you have never answered the question asked by some of us about your claim there are no such thing as electrons.
This was just an counterplea of dumb TinselKoala argumentation, who has said, that overunity doesn't exist, because he never observed it during his experiments. So I did say, with the same logic the electrons also don't exist, because I also never observed them during my experiments.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Erfinder on April 01, 2017, 12:20:41 PM
Repost for the alternative Big Thinkers so this doesn't get lost in the shuffle:

We know that a flywheel is equivalent to a coil.  So what about RESONANCE, when a coil is resonating at its resonant frequency?  How does that relate to a flywheel?

i.e.; The brass pancake flywheel at its resonant frequency.

If you really can describe a flywheel self-resonating then what is so special about a coil self-resonating?  But can you do it?


When dealing with a subject of such import, why would any self respecting researcher limit him/herself to the limited perspective of the learned.....  Alternative Big Thinkers.....  same question, however, replace the flywheel with a gyroscope.  The learned in their infinite wisdom direct our building apparatus in which the true forces are literally grounded...  The man, in his heyday, recognized this and changed gears, deciding to design, construct and operate linear actuators which produced and transmitted the same forces in a completely different and more effective and useful manner.  Those forces which we put to use are but a reflection of those which are for lack of a better way of putting it, "transmitted into the ground".......


Folk...police yourselves....do your homework before you bring your ideas to the attention of those who will shit on your dreams.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 01, 2017, 01:05:52 PM
See distributed element model (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_element_model), simulation (http://www.falstad.com/circuit/e-tlstand.html) illustrates, that its behavior cannot be replaced with simple discrete circuit.High Frequency circuit, of course. Metamaterial circuits (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-ring_resonator) enable the propagation of waves faster than EM wave (http://i.imgur.com/Z0poIJV.gif) inside them and/or against their source - and this is the point, in which the things become interesting for overunity, as they violate the causality of common electromagnetic circuits. These things are commonly known in scientific circles, but until you don't know about them, then you're in position of tribesmen (http://www.scout.com/college/marshall/forums/4634-the-bull-sheet-2-0/15337071-the-cargo-cult), who are constructing airplanes and jeeps out of palm fronds and bamboo, because they believe, they will bring them cargo and food.

Eventually people are going to get bored with your fantasy talk.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 01, 2017, 01:11:18 PM

When dealing with a subject of such import, why would any self respecting researcher limit him/herself to the limited perspective of the learned.....  Alternative Big Thinkers.....  same question, however, replace the flywheel with a gyroscope.  The learned in their infinite wisdom direct our building apparatus in which the true forces are literally grounded...  The man, in his heyday, recognized this and changed gears, deciding to design, construct and operate linear actuators which produced and transmitted the same forces in a completely different and more effective and useful manner.  Those forces which we put to use are but a reflection of those which are for lack of a better way of putting it, "transmitted into the ground".......

Folk...police yourselves....do your homework before you bring your ideas to the attention of those who will shit on your dreams.

More pie-in-the-sky talk.  My question goes directly to the issue of the understanding of a self-resonating coil and how it works and you throw pies at the sky.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Erfinder on April 01, 2017, 01:22:55 PM
More pie-in-the-sky talk.  My question goes directly to the issue of the understanding of a self-resonating coil and how it works and you throw pies at the sky.


ok...so this time around, I put forth the effort and wrote your opinion on the paper before using it....waste not want not.......me not being one for getting into the dirty details....


a visual minus the grime...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcmiWxCu8So


not sure which is dirtier....your opinion or the ........


Starting to get the point though.....the only opinion which matters is...... (not) yours.....
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 01, 2017, 01:25:07 PM
Is the capacitance and the inductance of the Bifilar pancake coil, parallel or series?

A LC circuit with capacitors and inductors, can be made in parallel or series. This has influence on the impedance at its resonant frequency.
 
But the bifilar pancake coil is a capacitor and inductor, at the same time, in the same space. So it is ONE. it cant be series, and it cant be parallel.

With a capacitor inductor L/C circuit, the dielectric field is stored in a different place (the capacitor), than where the magnetic field (the inductor) is stored.
With the fields divided, we can make them series or parallel, because they are separated in space.

But in a bifilar coil, the fields are generated from within the same space. the dielectric, resides inside the magnetic field, as both are produced from the same bifilar windings.
Therefor, it is ONE.

This resembles a magnet, which has a magnetic field, with inside it the dielectric field (bloch wall).
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: web000x on April 01, 2017, 02:34:38 PM
Is the capacitance and the inductance of the Bifilar pancake coil, parallel or series?

A LC circuit with capacitors and inductors, can be made in parallel or series. This has influence on the impedance at its resonant frequency.
 
But the bifilar pancake coil is a capacitor and inductor, at the same time, in the same space. So it is ONE. it cant be series, and it cant be parallel.

With a capacitor inductor L/C circuit, the dielectric field is stored in a different place (the capacitor), than where the magnetic field (the inductor) is stored.
With the fields divided, we can make them series or parallel, because they are separated in space.

But in a bifilar coil, the fields are generated from within the same space. the dielectric, resides inside the magnetic field, as both are produced from the same bifilar windings.
Therefor, it is ONE.

This resembles a magnet, which has a magnetic field, with inside it the dielectric field (bloch wall).


I think that in the coil you have distributed impedances that allow for a complex form of propagation.  Look up the stuff that Eric Dollard has explained about TEM vs LMD probagation, LC vs MK.  The dielectric and magnetic components haven't turned into one.  They have just been reduced to existing within the coil structure so that they 'appear' to be one to the observer.  His Theory of Wireless Power (http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Eric_Dollard_Document_Collection/Theory%20of%20Wireless%20Power%20by%20Eric%20Dollard_OCR.pdf) book has some good diagrams highlighting this complete propagation, pg35 - Fig 1.


Dave
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 01, 2017, 02:42:23 PM
This was just an counterplea of dumb TinselKoala argumentation, who has said, that overunity doesn't exist, because he never observed it during his experiments. So I did say, with the same logic the electrons also don't exist, because I also never observed them during my experiments.

Now you have descended past folly and comedy and into outright mendacity and utter ignorance. And you admit to using straw-man arguments once again! Do you have no integrity at all? It must be very painful to be you, so insecure in your faulty world-view that you cannot even face your own errors and admit them like a person with self-respect and honesty.

As you well know, there is _plenty_ of evidence that electrons do exist and people have been engineering with them for decades and even centuries. Whether or not YOU have "observed them during your experiments" has nothing to do with the FACT that electrons have been proven to exist and are used in all kinds of devices every day.  This is very different from the case of "overunity".

Besides, I doubt if you have ever actually performed "experiments" of your own at all.... because you have never presented any evidence that you have, and you evidently do not even know how to interpret real experiments and demonstrations performed by others.


Which direction does current flow when the power is removed from a coil? Same direction, or reversed direction? Face the facts and admit your errors, or present evidence OF YOUR OWN to refute the demonstrated facts. Or continue to dodge the question and weasel around your original claim, demonstrating yet again your profound lack of integrity.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 01, 2017, 02:55:17 PM
Quote
Which direction does current flow when the power is removed from a coil? Same direction, or reversed direction?
The original question was, which current direction generates the collapsing magnetic field of coil. This direction is the opposite to the current, which created this magnetic field.
Quote
And you admit to using straw-man arguments once again!
The question is, who is actual comedian here. The arguing, that something is impossible, because you did try it without success is called an anectodal fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence). Such a dumbness cannot be beaten by any other fallacy.
Quote
there is _plenty_ of evidence that electrons do exist
There is plenty of evidence for electricity - but the proof that electrons exist is not so trivial. This is just a matter of consistency of thinking. I'm pretty sure, nobody of you did ever observe the electron in the same way like the overunity.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 01, 2017, 03:15:43 PM
ok...so this time around, I put forth the effort and wrote your opinion on the paper before using it....waste not want not.......me not being one for getting into the dirty details....

Starting to get the point though.....the only opinion which matters is...... (not) yours.....

Sorry for the cynical comment.  What I should have said is that I can't make much sense of what you are saying.   Like, okay, a gyroscope is a flywheel.  But grounded forces, linear actuators, transmitted into the ground, etc, I really don't know where you are going with that and I can't relate it to the subject matter.

Also, please don't play straw man.  And you would look better if you would refrain from your usual dismissive attitude when you feel the conversation is done. The old, "I've got better things to do with my time" bit is just a pretentious rude diss and it is not needed.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 01, 2017, 03:42:33 PM
Is the capacitance and the inductance of the Bifilar pancake coil, parallel or series?

A LC circuit with capacitors and inductors, can be made in parallel or series. This has influence on the impedance at its resonant frequency.
 
But the bifilar pancake coil is a capacitor and inductor, at the same time, in the same space. So it is ONE. it cant be series, and it cant be parallel.

With a capacitor inductor L/C circuit, the dielectric field is stored in a different place (the capacitor), than where the magnetic field (the inductor) is stored.
With the fields divided, we can make them series or parallel, because they are separated in space.

But in a bifilar coil, the fields are generated from within the same space. the dielectric, resides inside the magnetic field, as both are produced from the same bifilar windings.
Therefor, it is ONE.

This resembles a magnet, which has a magnetic field, with inside it the dielectric field (bloch wall).

Okay, let me give you some perspective here.  Often, there is a frame of reference for a discussion.  I will give you a classic example.  If you don't live in the Arctic as an Inuit, then the way you relate to snow and describe snow during the wintertime time is much different than that of an Inuit.  We might say, fluffy snow, sticky snow, and slush.  But the Inuit have about 20 words to describe 20 distinct variations for snow in their Arctic environment.

The frame of reference here is that the self-resonating coil is a device with two terminals and you can observe the voltage across the two terminals and the current flow through the device.  Since you are talking about the current through the coil, the coil in this case is not stand-alone, it is in a circuit of some kind.   The simplified circuit is [AC voltage source] -> [pancake coil] -> [Ground].

So from that frame of reference the question is what does the self-resonating coil look like at resonance?  The answer cannot be "is is ONE" because that doesn't make sense.  The presumption is that it will look like either a series LC circuit with very low impedance at resonance or as a parallel LC circuit with near-infinite impedance at resonance.  The suggested test procedure was outlined for you.

The fact that the inductive components and fields and the dielectric (capacitive) components and fields coexist in the same 3D space is of no consequence.  In addition, when the magnetic field changes it produces an electric field and when the electric field changes it produces a magnetic field.  So the concept of magnetic and electric fields occupying the same space is nothing new.

This clip is a mixture of simple concepts related to this and hard core math and it may be of interest to you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DH7ufrkeHM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DH7ufrkeHM)

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 01, 2017, 04:54:36 PM

I think that in the coil you have distributed impedances that allow for a complex form of propagation.  Look up the stuff that Eric Dollard has explained about TEM vs LMD probagation, LC vs MK.  The dielectric and magnetic components haven't turned into one.  They have just been reduced to existing within the coil structure so that they 'appear' to be one to the observer.  His Theory of Wireless Power (http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Eric_Dollard_Document_Collection/Theory%20of%20Wireless%20Power%20by%20Eric%20Dollard_OCR.pdf) book has some good diagrams highlighting this complete propagation, pg35 - Fig 1.


Dave
Thanks Dave. Yes I know the book, and his other great works. (works great with Ken wheelers/theoria apophasis views)

It seems the spiralling spacial vortex magnetic field(above and below the windings), becomes one(in phase) with the spiraling dielectric field in between the windings. Becoming the same field, that some call the magneto dielectric.

All fields are ether fields, its the field form that defines its characteristics. A spacial vortex field, is magnetic (creating suction/pressure). A coherent linear field (in a capacitor) is dielectric (creating tension). 

2D drawings dont show the whole complexity of the field flows. We really have to visualise them in 3D. thats what i like about the ferrocell and VR
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Erfinder on April 01, 2017, 05:55:53 PM
Sorry for the cynical comment.  What I should have said is that I can't make much sense of what you are saying.   Like, okay, a gyroscope is a flywheel.  But grounded forces, linear actuators, transmitted into the ground, etc, I really don't know where you are going with that and I can't relate it to the subject matter.


You aren't sorry....  You cannot make sense of what I am saying....your problem, not mine.  Did I say a gyroscope is a flywheel? NO, you did!  I know what a gyroscope is, and the role a flywheel plays within a gyroscope....  I said "replace the flywheel with a gyroscope."  Big difference......savvy!  not a question..... You want folk to see the relation that a coil has to a flywheel, mediocre....the relation a coil has to a gyroscope is where folk need to focus, but since you are the competent authority, you get to decide where folk invest their time....bull manure!


Regarding the "grounded forces"....I cannot tell you how good it feels to bask in the glory of your ignorance....gonna stretch this out as long as I can....


You can't relate because, as can be interpreted from the tone of your opinions, suggestions and recommendations, you are better than the best in the peanut gallery.....King manure on planet manure....  What I say makes no sense to you because it registers too low on your bull manure meter, got to get your nose out of the air, you have to drop the bar...lower your sensitivity levels.... where you have your meter set, my bull manure is just noise...  You are tuned to your level of bull manure.... Try and understand, I don't have the skill set to bull manure at your level.  Come down off that long legged horse and mingle with the know nots, you might pick up a bad habit or two, and or an STD or three, it will be a first, and experience, a WIN WIN for you!

Also, please don't play straw man.  And you would look better if you would refrain from your usual dismissive attitude when you feel the conversation is done. The old, "I've got better things to do with my time" bit is just a pretentious rude diss and it is not needed.


You play this strawman card on everyone who gives you shit.....Kiss a strawmans straw backside....   Open your  (not the best choice but it fits...) mind, broaden your  horizons.  There are literally hundreds of better instructors than you, refer folk to them and be silent, like a gangster would! 


The conversation ends when I no longer feel the need to entertain myself at your expense.  The dismissive attitude, a facade I wear for the antagonists, like batman's costume (the dark knight bitch).   When the moment arrives and better things come calling, go -- yourself till I'm ready to entertain myself with this silly, meaningless, distraction you arrogantly and ignorantly associate with ambrosia.


In conclusion, your presence on a platform where you obviously don't fit in (know them by their work) is suspect.  Your need to demonstrate your superior intellect, projecting it on any and everyone like a  drunk working person is beyond a bit pretentious, its out right GO AWAY! 


Edited to some for of G rating.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 01, 2017, 06:13:47 PM

You aren't sorry....  You cannot make sense of what I am saying....your problem, not mine.  Did I say a gyroscope is a flywheel? NO, you did!  I know what a gyroscope is, and the role a flywheel plays within a gyroscope....  I said "replace the flywheel with a gyroscope."  Big fucking difference......savvy!  not a question..... You want folk to see the relation that a coil has to a flywheel, mediocre....the relation a coil has to a gyroscope is where folk need to focus, but since you are the competent authority, you get to decide where folk invest their time....bullshit!


Regarding the "grounded forces"....I cannot tell you how good it feels to bask in the glory of your ignorance....gonna stretch this out as long as I can....


You can't relate because, as can be interpreted from the tone of your opinions, suggestions and recommendations, you are better than the best in the peanut gallery.....King shit on planet shit....  What I say makes no sense to you because it registers too low on your bullshit meter, got to get your nose out of the air, you have to drop the bar...lower your sensitivity levels.... where you have your meter set, my bullshit is just noise...  You are tuned to your level of bullshit.... Try and understand, I don't have the skill set to bullshit at your level.  Come down off that long legged horse and mingle with the know nots, you might pick up a bad habit or two, and or an STD or three, it will be a first, and experience, a WIN WIN for you!


You play this strawman card on everyone who gives you shit.....Kiss a strawmans straw ass....   Open your fucking impotent (not the best choice but it fits...) mind, broaden your  horizons.  There are literally hundreds of better instructors than you, refer folk to them and be silent, like a gangster would! 


The conversation ends when I no longer feel the need to entertain myself at your expense.  The dismissive attitude, a facade I wear for the antagonists, like batman's costume (the dark knight bitch).   When the moment arrives and better things come calling, go fuck yourself till I'm ready to entertain myself with this silly, meaningless, distraction you arrogantly and ignorantly associate with ambrosia.


In conclusion, your presence on a platform where you obviously don't fit in (know them by their work) is suspect.  Your need to demonstrate your superior intellect, projecting it on any and everyone like a piss drunk working person is beyond a bit pretentious, its out right PISS OFF!

My turn to jump on the gang pile! Three words: Scrap Yard Magnet!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 01, 2017, 06:19:44 PM
That was a good big rant.  We were discussing a bifilar pancake coil.  Anything relevant to say about that?  I guess whose version of an "open mind" is something for people to consider.  It takes insight and an open mind a willingness to learn to get somewhere.  I mean to actually get somewhere.

I am not impressed by another one of your pitches which is, "You can't understand my own private insights and tough luck for you."  If you are going to play the perpetual tease, what's the point?  If you would try to explain yourself better and with more clarity perhaps people could understand where you are coming from.  People could perhaps learn from you if there is substance, or perhaps not if there is no substance.  I know, you don't care and you are in another realm and we just wouldn't understand anyway.

As an example of getting somewhere, I posted a large-signal inductance meter circuit, see it below.  Can you describe how you use it?  If you can, great.  If not, it's wet paper bag territory for you.  Don't forget, we are trying to understand some basic electronics sometimes on this forum.  So what's a bifilar pancake coil?  Is it some vortex superluminal spiraling thingamajig?  Or when all is said and done is it really and truly a coil with standard associated parameters?  I think that is a pretty interesting question.

And here is your straw man:

Quote
Starting to get the point though.....the only opinion which matters is...... (not) yours.....
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Erfinder on April 01, 2017, 06:49:00 PM
That was a good big rant.  We were discussing a bifilar pancake coil.  Anything relevant to say about that?  I guess whose version of an "open mind" is something for people to consider.  It takes insight and an open mind a willingness to learn to get somewhere.  I mean to actually get somewhere.

I am not impressed by another one of your pitches which is, "You can't understand my own private insights and tough luck for you."  If you are going to play the perpetual tease, what's the point?  If you would try to explain yourself better and with more clarity perhaps people could understand where you are coming from.  People could perhaps learn from you if there is substance, or perhaps not if there is no substance.  I know, you don't care and you are in another realm and we just wouldn't understand anyway.

As an example of getting somewhere, I posted a large-signal inductance meter circuit, see it below.  Can you describe how you use it?  If you can, great.  If not, it's wet paper bag territory for you.  Don't forget, we are trying to understand some basic electronics sometimes on this forum.  So what's a bifilar pancake coil?  Is it some vortex superluminal spiraling thingamajig?  Or when all is said and done is it really and truly a coil with standard associated parameters?  I think that is a pretty interesting question.

And here is your straw man:


Yawn.....  I am not intersted in discussing your perspective. 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 01, 2017, 06:56:25 PM
Yawn.....  I am not intersted in discussing your perspective.

LOL  Following your programming!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 01, 2017, 07:03:13 PM
I skimmed through the following clips and they all look pretty good.

Measuring coil inductance and IF transformer resonant frequency

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff5xOENID7w

How to measure inductance with Oscilloscope and Signal Generator

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01Ebd6eR7Lw

Measure Capacitors and Inductors with an Oscilloscope and some basic parts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74fz9iwZ_sM

Measuring Inductance with A Pulse and Oscilloscope

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhS8m38ef0Y
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Erfinder on April 01, 2017, 07:11:02 PM
LOL  Following your programming!


Yeah...following my programming.....wetting the bag...smart.....


then there's you.........


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20D-kf9moX0


Don't put it out with your boots MileHigh..... ;)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 01, 2017, 09:24:53 PM
The original question was, which current direction generates the collapsing magnetic field of coil. This direction is the opposite to the current, which created this magnetic field.

 (emphasis mine)

Are you sure you don't mean "the collapsing magnetic field generates which current direction"? Regardless of your scrambled verbiage (I realize English isn't your first language) .... now you may please explain why and how the LED flashes in my video demonstration.

The rest of your post is not worthy of a response.

Quote
The question is, who is actual comedian here. The arguing, that something is impossible, because you did try it without success is called an anectodal fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence). Such a dumbness cannot be beaten by any other fallacy. There is plenty of evidence for electricity - but the proof that electrons exist is not so trivial. This is just a matter of consistency of thinking. I'm pretty sure, nobody of you did ever observe the electron in the same way like the overunity.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 01, 2017, 09:28:37 PM
My turn to jump on the gang pile! Three words: Scrap Yard Magnet!

You are presumably repeating the claim you have made before, that scrapyard magnets are wound in the Tesla Bifilar method, and that this is done to increase the field strength for a given current. I have been unable to find any reference on the Internet to confirm this contention. So please post some links so this can be checked.

However I did find this discussion on this forum from some time ago. It looks like your claim, at least in this case,  is false.

http://www.overunity.com/13460/teslas-coil-for-electro-magnets/260/wap/
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 01, 2017, 11:04:33 PM
If the spiraling magnetic vortexes above and below the bifilar pancake coil, line up with the spiraling dielectric field in between the windings,  the fields become one.
The magnetic field energy is added to the dielectric field energy, explaining why there is such a big rise at the (primary) resonant frequency. The voltage rise could be due to the merging of the fields.

This newly created uniform field, has interesting properties. Much of those are not yet explored. Why? Because it is so different than what we a are used to. We are used to the power of induction, the power of magnetic fields.
But this field is simply different.

It can make you sick, drain the life out of you,
It can make you energized, so much that you cant sleep
Or make you run to the toilet like Mark Twain did after he ignored Tesla's advice because it made him feel so good.

At higher voltages, it can do more. so much to explore (and it has been explored,  its being used)

Its natures natural form of electricity. our body's function with it, and the earth is full of it.

The bifilar pancake coil, is like a special kind of transformer, producing this energy.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: shylo on April 01, 2017, 11:17:19 PM
Yeah but what happens when you introduce 3 fields, and then 4, and then 5?
artv
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 01, 2017, 11:48:43 PM
evostars
when you say " Ken Wheeler and Spinning vortex's" are you saying he has shown this "spinning vortex" ?
I remember over here a few years ago he posted an experiment or Claim with bismuth and a magnet

The claim was a rise in temperature due to the spinning vortex thru the Bismuth.

Many here did caloric testing with this claim and failed to realize the same result, his claim was originally based on a thermal imaging camera reading which at the time was questionable do to reflection artifacts ?

Has he since shown this in a lab test ? or some other way to qualify this actual Motion ??

If there is indeed motion It should be viewable thru input enhancement and some metal dust or foil ?
Or/
and as Ken says if the field is spinning it should react and produce power or heat [his bismuth example]

would be good to See this motion,  which would indeed mean a potential interaction at higher power levels ??

and for clarity I did speak several times with Ken and explained we were not seeing this in the lab [heat]

has he done testing since to prove this "spinning Vortex" motion ?
and for additional clarity we could do this test again here with supporting You tube Vids, so as to have the proper test protocols and rule out error ?

respectfully

Chet K

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 02, 2017, 02:41:54 AM
evostars
when you say Ken Wheeler and vortex's are you saying he has shown this "spinning" vortex ?
I remember over here a few years ago he posted an experiment or Claim with bismuth and a magnet
the claim was a rise in temperature due to the spinning vortex thru the Bismuth.

many here did caloric testing with this claim and failed to realize the same result, his claim was originally based on a thermal imaging camera reading which at the time was questionable do to reflection artifacts ?

has he since shown this in a lab test ? or some other way to qualify this actual Motion ??

it should be achievable thru input enhancement and some metal dust or foil ?
Or?

would be good to See this motion,  which would indeed mean a potential interaction at higher power levels ??

and for clarity I did speak several times with Ken and explained we were not seeing this in the lab [heat]

has he done testing since to prove this "spinning Vortex" motion ?
and for additional clarity we could do this test again here with supporting You tube Vids, so as to have the proper test protocols and rule out error ?

respectfully

Chet K


so far as i know,  he has not.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 02, 2017, 01:40:24 PM
If you're attempting for overunity, you should understand what you're actually trying to do. The overunity breaks all laws of physics, which are based on energy conservation law, which are all laws in essence (because all laws rely on energy transfer in this way or another on background) and as such it breaks the causality and thermodynamical time arrow. It's negentropic, superluminal, antigravity, extradimensional out-of-world phenomena based on monopole scalar wave physics - i.e. just the things, which shouldn't exist according to mainstream physics because of limiting speed of EM waves, which cannot be exceeded. Which is why mainstream physics avoids the overunity research like devil the cross, because it denies whole its religion, which it has been based on during last centuries. What is important here, this principle applies to speed of EM waves within all environments, not just vacuum - no matter how slow these waves can be with these materials. It's very universal principle because of universal character of EM wave propagation.

Fortunately just this aspect of overunity enables us to pursue it, because the speed of EM waves within magnetically or electrically conductive materials is greatly lowered bellow the speed of light in vacuum and it can be modulated there in wide extent in addition. For example magnet or surface of conductor mediates EM waves much slower than the vacuum and if we introduce external magnetic or electric field, then it can be saturated and its ability to slow down EM wave will be temporarily disabled. From this moment the existing EM waves would propagate faster than they should and their excessive energy will be released into account of thermal energy of material. We can therefore say, that the overunity is paradoxically just the consequence of conservation of energy and limited speed of EM waves within systems, which temporarily and locally enabled to exceed and break it.

It's also important to realize, that this principle doesn't enable us to break the first law of thermodynamics and to generate heat from nothing. If we are utilizing variable speed of light within materials instead of vacuum, then the overunity actually comes from heat fluctuations of material instead of vacuum - so that only second law of thermodynamics can get broken. Which isn't fundamental obstacle for perpetuum mobile of the 2n kind, because such an overunity machine can be placed at yard and leaved to cool the rest of universe. But if we would use it for example for heating of our kitchen (i.e. thermally insulated room), then it would cool it with exactly the energy, which we will drain from it for this purpose. And because the processes of EM wave modulation are energy dissipative in general, we aren't still warrantied, that this approach will actually generate some free energy. The alternative polarization/depolarization of material is energy costly process and it will also consume some energy. So that the construction of overunity devices isn't trivial task even if you exactly know, what you're doing, because you must eliminate loses of energy with classical, i.e. energy dissipative processes.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 02, 2017, 02:03:51 PM
Lighting led and neon with one hand ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEZSCNHDYJs

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 02, 2017, 03:04:16 PM
That is for starters :


Like someone say :     “For starters, there is no such thing as single-wire energy transmission.”
Maybe we could try without wires ….. ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGdKqdpztuY



Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 02, 2017, 03:32:12 PM
My apologies, it was not an LED I lit with one hand ... :(
Maybe this example best illustrates how I love playing with LEDs. :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FasAn7aJa6o

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 02, 2017, 03:42:16 PM
That is for starters :

Like someone say :     “For starters, there is no such thing as single-wire energy transmission.”
Maybe we could try without wires ….. ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGdKqdpztuY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGdKqdpztuY)

Nelson Rocha

Sure I would be happy to explain this to you again.  Typically high-frequency voltage travels down the single wire.  However, with no current flow you cannot transfer any AC power into the load.  So the question is how do you get current to flow when there is no apparent current loop in the circuit?  As we know, for current to flow, there must be a loop.

We also know that there exists so-called "stray" (a.k.a. parasitic) capacitance everywhere.  A capacitor is just two conducting plates separated by a distance.  Let's look at a trivial example.  Suppose you are outside in your back yard.  Let's say there is an insulating plastic lawn chair that you are sitting in and your feet are not touching the ground.  We know that the ground is conductive and there is always some moisture in the ground that helps it become more conductive.  We also know the human body is basically salty water, and so the human body is conductive.

Therefore, when you sit on an insulating plastic chair in your back yard with your feet not touching the ground we can say that there is a measurable capacitance between your body and the ground.  It may be very small, perhaps 100 pF, but it is there and it is measurable.  In reality, there is stray or parasitic capacitance everywhere.

It is this stray capacitance that allows AC current to conduct in a current loop that allows for so-called "single wire power transmission."

Here is a typical circuit current loop:

<earth ground> ---> <stray capacitor #1> ---> <high frequency AC signal generator> ---> <load> ---> <stray capacitor #2> ---> <back to earth ground>

When you do a "single wire power transmission" experiment there are typically two "invisible" stray capacitors that allow AC current to flow.  Therefore the load sees both voltage and current and therefore AC power gets transferred into the load.  Small neon lights and LEDs require very little power to light up and that's why you often see them lit in experiments like this.

This is a fairly straightforward concept that should be understood by people interested in experimenting with electronics.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: NRamaswami on April 02, 2017, 04:28:49 PM
Sir..

Your explanation is plausible but if this is correct then we have high frequency always coming to us in the form of Sun light and cosmic rays. It should be possible for us to synchronize and then collect the power anywhere in the world at any time of the day or night. Why are we not able to do that? Would you please advise.

I do not dispute that your explanation is plausible but I do not get it as to why we cannot have devices in the way you describe. I myself have built and tested wireless Electricity transmission but these are small experiments and have been done before.

Please advise your insight as to how your theory can be used to make electricity everywhere at any time.

Regards

Ramaswami


Sure I would be happy to explain this to you again.  Typically high-frequency voltage travels down the single wire.  However, with no current flow you cannot transfer any AC power into the load.  So the question is how do you get current to flow when there is no apparent current loop in the circuit?  As we know, for current to flow, there must be a loop.

We also know that there exists so-called "stray" (a.k.a. parasitic) capacitance everywhere.  A capacitor is just two conducting plates separated by a distance.  Let's look at a trivial example.  Suppose you are outside in your back yard.  Let's say there is an insulating plastic lawn chair that you are sitting in and your feet are not touching the ground.  We know that the ground is conductive and there is always some moisture in the ground that helps it become more conductive.  We also know the human body is basically salty water, and so the human body is conductive.

Therefore, when you sit on an insulating plastic chair in your back yard with your feet not touching the ground we can say that there is a measurable capacitance between your body and the ground.  It may be very small, perhaps 100 pF, but it is there and it is measurable.  In reality, there is stray or parasitic capacitance everywhere.

It is this stray capacitance that allows AC current to conduct in a current loop that allows for so-called "single wire power transmission."

Here is a typical circuit current loop:

<earth ground> ---> <stray capacitor #1> ---> <high frequency AC signal generator> ---> <load> ---> <stray capacitor #2> ---> <back to earth ground>

When you do a "single wire power transmission" experiment there are typically two "invisible" stray capacitors that allow AC current to flow.  Therefore the load sees both voltage and current and therefore AC power gets transferred into the load.  Small neon lights and LEDs require very little power to light up and that's why you often see them lit in experiments like this.

This is a fairly straightforward concept that should be understood by people interested in experimenting with electronics.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 02, 2017, 04:57:32 PM
Lighting led and neon with one hand ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEZSCNHDYJs

Nelson Rocha
good to see your videos nelson!
im still curious for the Levitating aluminium foil.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: forest on April 02, 2017, 07:20:45 PM
remember https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4EoJ4UwU8E

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 02, 2017, 09:26:22 PM
Single-wire transmission line - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_transmission_line), more background (http://amasci.com/tesla/tmistk.html)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: NRamaswami on April 02, 2017, 09:28:29 PM
Forest Sir

I think you all miss the point here.

My knowledge is very low and so if I make mistakes please advise.

I think this wireless transmission of electricity is based on resonant capacitive coupling. Within the area of influence of the transmitter any device that resonates with the transmitter can be coupled to it and it would work to produce output. The area of influence of transmitter can be increased by using repeaters at proper distances.

However if resonant capacitive coupling is achieved in theory each resonantly coupled  device must produce output. This is how radio stations work.

I understand that one such emitter should be able to power 1000 devices each with an efficiency of 50 to 60% but the sum total of all would be far in Excess of energy consumption of transmitter.

The key to do this resonance coupling.

I have seen that one type of lamps are resontly coupled and light up without any wire being connected to them. but it can be explained as capacitive coupling.

Another type of lamp does not light up for it is not showing resonant capacitive coupling.

Let me test some time whether I can light up lamps that would need 1000 watts normally from the grid  would wirelessly light up with just 440 watts of input. If they do then we are one step further in to this area. But will it work or won't we need to test and see.

All of you have different perspective of how an Elephant would like and disagree with each other when no one appears to have seen an Elephant in the first place. This is the problem.

Unfortunately it only resulted in a shouting match.
No useful knowledge is being transmitted to lay people like me.

Regards

Ramaswami

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 02, 2017, 10:37:00 PM
Single-wire transmission line - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_transmission_line), more background (http://amasci.com/tesla/tmistk.html)

Here is the critical quote from the Wikipedia theory section:

At much higher frequencies, however, it is possible for the return circuit (which would normally be connected through a second wire) to utilize the self- and parasitic capacitance of a large conductive object, perhaps the housing of the load (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_load) itself.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 02, 2017, 11:10:28 PM
The original question was, which current direction generates the collapsing magnetic field of coil. This direction is the opposite to the current, which created this magnetic field.


Are you sure you don't mean "the collapsing magnetic field generates which current direction"? Regardless of your scrambled verbiage (I realize English isn't your first language) .... now you may please explain why and how the LED flashes in my video demonstration.



What's that I hear? Sound of crickets chirping....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X66foYixu9Y
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 02, 2017, 11:14:16 PM
WireLESS power transmission, no capacitive coupling involved:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-hl2W86yk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-hl2W86yk)

Note bulb can be  _brighter_  when powered wirelessly than when connected directly to the battery powering the wireless transmitter.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: NRamaswami on April 02, 2017, 11:41:49 PM
I have to beg to disagree based on my observations.

I agree that light can be made to be brighter wirelessly than when connected to the grid. That part is correct by observations.

However I have checked with a 40 watts tube light and it glows only up to the part where my hand catches it near the receiver coil. The feet wearing rubber slippers are on an insulated copper plate connected to earth. As I moved the hand further tube glows till hand is touching the light.

However if I just place the tube light between the two aerials one of them is transmitter and other receiver the Whole tube glows. In your video posted you use a tiny lamp and so you are not able to observe it but capacitance is through your body.

This is not really important. The real thing is how do we find out resonance or calculate it. If we can create something that is resonant with cosmic rays then we have electricity to be generated any where and everywhere at any time.

Your ring is very low power for you need to go very close to it to make wireless transmission to happen.
That can be very easily improved.

Regards

Ramaswami


Quote from: TinselKoala
  link=topic=17186.msg503045#msg503045 date=1491167656
WireLESS power transmission, no capacitive coupling involved:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-hl2W86yk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-hl2W86yk)

Note bulb can be  _brighter_  when powered wirelessly than when connected directly to the battery powering the wireless transmitter.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 02, 2017, 11:43:32 PM
Sure I would be happy to explain this to you again.  Typically high-frequency voltage travels down the single wire.  However, with no current flow you cannot transfer any AC power into the load.  So the question is how do you get current to flow when there is no apparent current loop in the circuit?  As we know, for current to flow, there must be a loop.

We also know that there exists so-called "stray" (a.k.a. parasitic) capacitance everywhere.  A capacitor is just two conducting plates separated by a distance.  Let's look at a trivial example.  Suppose you are outside in your back yard.  Let's say there is an insulating plastic lawn chair that you are sitting in and your feet are not touching the ground.  We know that the ground is conductive and there is always some moisture in the ground that helps it become more conductive.  We also know the human body is basically salty water, and so the human body is conductive.

Therefore, when you sit on an insulating plastic chair in your back yard with your feet not touching the ground we can say that there is a measurable capacitance between your body and the ground.  It may be very small, perhaps 100 pF, but it is there and it is measurable.  In reality, there is stray or parasitic capacitance everywhere.

It is this stray capacitance that allows AC current to conduct in a current loop that allows for so-called "single wire power transmission."

Here is a typical circuit current loop:

<earth ground> ---> <stray capacitor #1> ---> <high frequency AC signal generator> ---> <load> ---> <stray capacitor #2> ---> <back to earth ground>

When you do a "single wire power transmission" experiment there are typically two "invisible" stray capacitors that allow AC current to flow.  Therefore the load sees both voltage and current and therefore AC power gets transferred into the load.  Small neon lights and LEDs require very little power to light up and that's why you often see them lit in experiments like this.

This is a fairly straightforward concept that should be understood by people interested in experimenting with electronics.


I'm impressed with such detail of explanation !
Thanks,  I will apply that to my future work . I'm feel fascinating, and for sure is a  straightforward concept that i need learn .
Thanks MH for your contribution :)


Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 03, 2017, 12:37:46 AM
I have to beg to disagree based on my observations.
You may disagree, but your observations apparently are not of my system, and your preconceptions are causing you to draw incorrect conclusions.
Quote

I agree that light can be made to be brighter wirelessly than when connected to the grid. That part is correct by observations.
The system I demonstrated in that video is not connected to the grid in any way. It is simply powered by a single 12 volt SLA battery of 7 A-H capacity.
The bulb is a standard automotive dome light bulb.
Quote

However I have checked with a 40 watts tube light and it glows only up to the part where my hand catches it near the receiver coil. The feet wearing rubber slippers are on an insulated copper plate connected to earth. As I moved the hand further tube glows till hand is touching the light.

However if I just place the tube light between the two aerials one of them is transmitter and other receiver the Whole tube glows. In your video posted you use a tiny lamp and so you are not able to observe it but capacitance is through your body.

The bulb I used is an incandescent bulb, not a "tube light" or fluorescent light. The system is an electromagnetically coupled system, does not depend on the electric field and there is no capacitance involved in the power transmission itself. It works regardless of whether my hand is involved or not. In the case of the video demonstration above I simply held the receiver and bulb in my hand for convenience so that it would be easy and unambiguous to tell that I made no "tricks" just connected the bulb directly to the battery, and then to the wireless receiver without making any changes.

Quote


This is not really important.


On the contrary. It is very important that experiments and demonstrations be correctly interpreted. Perhaps it is my fault for not including a voiceover explanation in that video.

Quote
The real thing is how do we find out resonance or calculate it. If we can create something that is resonant with cosmic rays then we have electricity to be generated any where and everywhere at any time.

The demonstrated system is doubly resonant. The transmitter uses a self-resonating circuit that automatically attains resonance in the L-C output circuit and maintains it. The receiver uses another LC circuit (made of only one capacitor and the "antenna loop") tuned to the correct frequency of the transmitter. We "find out" resonance by using test equipment such as oscilloscopes, and we "calculate" resonance based on component values and a few well-known and well-studied mathematical equations. But you know this already.

The power density of cosmic rays at the Earth's surface is actually quite small, thank goodness. The atmosphere and the Earth's magnetic field protect us from most of the power streaming at us from space, which is a good thing because otherwise life would have a hard time existing here on Earth.

Quote
Your ring is very low power for you need to go very close to it to make wireless transmission to happen.
That can be very easily improved.


That much, at least, you have correct. I am demonstrating a low power system in the close quarters of my bedroom laboratory, using a small 12 volt battery as the power source.

Quote
Regards

Ramaswami
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: NRamaswami on April 03, 2017, 02:20:05 AM
TK

Unfortunately I have neither the equipment nor the theoretical knowledge to calculate resonance on my own. I have replicated a device already built and described and found it provided resonance. So without the knowledge I am unable to respond. You are a Tesla fan but when you say cosmic rays are weak are you not contradicting Tesla Radiant energy patent. For that was the next experiment I wanted to do.

Is not electromagnetic coupling inferior to electric coupling as distance of coupling would be greatly reduced? Could you please give your insight on that.
Thanks

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 03, 2017, 11:29:20 PM
TK

Unfortunately I have neither the equipment nor the theoretical knowledge to calculate resonance on my own. I have replicated a device already built and described and found it provided resonance. So without the knowledge I am unable to respond.

If you don't have the equipment or the theoretical knowledge, how do you know that your device is actually "providing resonance" ?

Quote
You are a Tesla fan but when you say cosmic rays are weak are you not contradicting Tesla Radiant energy patent. For that was the next experiment I wanted to do.

By all means perform the experiment yourself. No, I am not contradicting Tesla's patent, I am just pointing out that you won't be able to get much power from it, as there isn't very much real power from cosmic rays or the solar wind available at the surface of the Earth.

You may be interested to know that I have actual "photographs" of cosmic rays. Or at least photos of the trails produced by cosmic rays in my sensitive astrophotograpy camera which uses a cooled charge-coupled device (CCD) imager. It's a good thing there aren't more of them because it would really screw up the photos of astronomical objects and events. Not to mention wreaking havoc with DNA in living organisms.

Quote
Is not electromagnetic coupling inferior to electric coupling as distance of coupling would be greatly reduced? Could you please give your insight on that.
Thanks

It depends on what you mean by "inferior". For example over the past couple of years we are starting to see more and more wireless charging and power transfer systems from commercial manufacturers like Apple. These are all electromagnetic. The problem with using the electric field, as you may have already found out yourself, is that when sufficient power is applied for longer range, almost everything in the environment becomes a "receiver". I think Tesla found this out, you have seen it no doubt, and even Eric Dollard discovered it for himself. With high-power electric field systems you get fluorescent and neon bulbs lighting up all over the place, sensitive components in devices like computers start to fail, people get shocked, metal shelving and metal chassis start spraying corona... it can be a real problem. With electromagnetic coupling you need tuned receivers (which can be very simple as I've shown) and yes, it does work best at relatively close range. Surround a room or a garage with the transmitting loop, or embed it in the concrete floor and you can transfer large amounts of power safely and under control, and only your tuned receivers will be able to pick it up. You can't do that with powerful electric fields.

 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: NRamaswami on April 04, 2017, 12:08:38 AM
Thanks TK

You seem to be amazingly well funded  and no dispute a lot of knowledge to match it.

I had been careful with using very weak electric fields to start with. The receiver coil connected to earth lights up a fluorescent lamp or Long straight tube light of 40 watts when it is brought near the unpowered receiver coil. Without resonance this is not possible. We do not need devices or calculations to understand this.

On electric fields I think we are yet to replicate nature which provides safe healthy terahertz visible spectrum. Only if we create very high voltage and relatively lower range frequencies compared to visible spectrum we have the problems you indicated. We would need particle size receivers to be resonant with it.

Wireless electromagnetic coupling can potentially increase the risk of deadly diseases. Cancer was extremely rare in India 40 years back. We have a lot today. Situation in Countries like US is said to be far worse. Has there been safety studies on wireless electromagnetic coupling done? 

On cosmic rays I beg to differ. While you are correct in the power of them as received they can be easily amplified. Tesla's patent does not talk about the amplification part which is otherwise common sense.

I believe that there is at least one member here who possibly might have done the Daniel McFarland Cook device which is said to produce unlimited DC output. Such
Such devices if controlled properly are quite safe.

Regards

Ramaswami
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tomd on April 04, 2017, 04:40:57 AM
There is a guy from Brazil - Gerson Paiva - who has a number of patents (attached) for free energy devices which work on the principle of muon capture to produce energy. In 2007 he was a doctoral student at the Federal University of Pernambuco where he was involved in the investigation of ball lightning. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/01/070122-ball-lightning.html (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/01/070122-ball-lightning.html)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmsg5LpGICV-jgJ2P1UirMg (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmsg5LpGICV-jgJ2P1UirMg)

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 04, 2017, 06:46:03 AM
Okay no takers on the self-resonant flywheel being a direct mechanical analog to the self-resonant coil.  So let's review it.

Rotational inertia is equivalent to inductance.  So it is rotational self-springiness that would be equivalent to the self-capacitance of the coil.

So how do we model that?  When you think of a flywheel, you think of a very solid disk of metal, say like a metal weight you put on a barbell.  Instead of that, let's imagine a much thinner metal disk, say something like the proportions of a cutting saw blade in a table saw.  Let's make the diameter larger also, say about one meter.

So, we are going to find the self-resonant frequency of a large and thin metal disk flywheel.  There is a certain amount of rotational springiness in that flywheel, if you put a brake on the outer edge of the flywheel and applied twisting torque on the center, the center wold twist a slight amount.

So you mount the flywheel on a shaft in a test system.  The test system can apply torque to the shaft in the form of an AC sine wave that can vary in intensity and frequency.  That is the equivalent to an external voltage source exciting the coil.

You start off by setting the applied torque on the flywheel as a one-hertz sine wave where the torque varies back and forth between a clockwise (CW) peak of 500 newton-meters and a counterclockwise (CCW) peak of 500 newton-meters.  You observe the flywheel rotating CW and then CCW at one hertz.  You also notice that the velocity of the rotating flywheel is exactly 90 degrees behind the applied torque to the flywheel, which is exactly how an inductor works for the relationship between the applied voltage and resulting current flow.  The two behave in exactly the same way.

You slowly increase the frequency of the CW + CCW torque to the flywheel and observe the flywheel rotating CW and then CCW where the velocity of the rotation is still 90 degrees behind the applied torque.  However, you notice that as you increase the frequency of the applied torque the total back-and forth angular displacement of the flywheel is decreasing.

When you apply a 200 Hz torque waveform to the flywheel, you can't even see the flywheel moving anymore.  At a 300 Hz AC torque, the flywheel appears to be perfectly still and not moving.  Apply a 400 Hz AC torque signal and the same thing, no apparent response at all from the flywheel.

But, at 497 Hz you hear a slight ringing from the flywheel but you still can't see any movement.  But all hell breaks loose at 500 Hz.  At 500 Hz you hear an incredibly loud ringing sound coming from the flywheel.  You look at the shaft and you can see the shaft is moving CW + CCW at 500 Hz.  You can see a small noticeable CW + CCW rotation at the outer edge of the flywheel.  But the most noticeable thing is the incredibly loud ringing sound filling the room.

You change the AC torque applied to the flywheel shaft to 503 Hz and you are back to hearing a slight ringing.  At 510 Hz, the shaft appears to have stopped moving and the flywheel emits no sound and it is back to looking like it is not moving at all.

So the flywheel had a self-resonant frequency of 500 Hz which was based on the rotational springiness of the flywheel interacting with the moment of inertial (rotational mass) of the flywheel.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 04, 2017, 07:10:18 AM
So, you go back and apply the 500 Hz AC torque signal to the flywheel and observe the flywheel at its self-resonant frequency.  There is no doubt about the resonant rise in the response of the flywheel because you can hear it ringing so loud.

So, is this "resonant rise" something to get excited about?  Is this higher amplitude resonant response from the flywheel a possible key to a mechanical over unity device?

Not really, because after five minutes at resonance the flywheel starts to get really hot.  You quickly realize that all of the shaft power that is going into the flywheel is turning into an incredibly loud ringing sound and the flywheel itself is starting to heat up.  All of the rotational shaft power you are putting into the flywheel is becoming sound and heat.  Or we can call that waste sound and waste heat.

So exciting a flywheel at its self-resonant frequency is essentially exactly the same as exciting a coil at its self-resonant frequency.  In both cases all of the increased supplied power to the resonant system becomes increased waste heat.

If you excite the flywheel at its self-resonant frequency with a high enough peak-to-peak AC torque signal, the flywheel will eventually heat up to the point it starts to get red hot.

Now, don't forget an ideal spring stores energy returns energy, it is not supposed to generate heat.  But the spring inside the flywheel is not ideal, it has hysteresis and any energy that it does not return is converted into heat.  In other words, there is effectively friction inside the resonating flywheel creating heat.

So the energy being burned off in the resonating flywheel due to friction is like the energy being burned off in the resonating coil due to wire resistance.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Grumage on April 04, 2017, 12:48:57 PM
Dear MileHigh.

Your original post had me thinking off and on, having had over 40 years experience with the Internal Combustion Engine.

I would never, even with several lifetimes have envisaged a flywheel that oscillated at 500 HZ!

Most practical people recognise that a flywheel stores rotational energy to carry the ICE through its dead cycles. On early electric generation engines the flywheel was made heavier to reduce the flicker of the lights.

Perhaps my post echoes the reason for " no takers " ?

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 04, 2017, 01:35:47 PM
Graham:

I think that you are missing the point.  For starters the example has no relationship with any flywheel that might be used in an internal combustion engine.  I described a thin disk one meter in diameter.  I described it like this so the thinness and reduced material in the disk would be more amenable to being deformed when torque was applied at the center of the disk.  The deformation is the spring in action.

If the disk is proportioned with a larger width, then the stiffness of the torque spring inside the disk goes way way up and the self-resonant frequency of the flywheel quickly goes up past 20 KHz and becomes inaudible.  Likewise, the amplitude of the  self-resonant oscillations would be so low as to be unobservable with the naked eye.

The whole point of the exercise was to "tune down" the self-resonant frequency to make it audible and observable.  The described dimensions of the hypothetical flywheel and the self-resonant frequency are all arbitrary and for illustrative purposes only.

The point of the exercise is to illustrate how a self-resonating flywheel is a near-perfect analogy for a self-resonating coil.

If you are working in a physics lab as a college freshman you might have a near-frictionless linear air track and you will will do the basic tests with a spring.  The spring they give you to test and measure for the spring constant "k" is like a miniature slinky that is about half a meter long in its relaxed state.  It is a very weak spring and you hang weights on it to measure how far it stretches to determine the spring constant.  The spring that you test serves no useful purpose in the real world that I am aware of, it's only used in physics labs.  However, it still is a spring and when you analyze that very weak spring you end up understanding how springs work in general.  Exactly the same principles are at play with my hypothetical example.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 04, 2017, 03:08:11 PM
Quote
how a self-resonating flywheel is a near-perfect analogy for a self-resonating coil

Why, what this analogy explains/predict? BTW Does self-resonating flywheel exist?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Grumage on April 04, 2017, 06:16:50 PM
Graham:

I think that you are missing the point.

MileHigh

Dear MileHigh.

On the contrary, I don't think there was a point to be missed.

Your flywheel ceased to be a " Flywheel " the moment it stopped rotating. IMO your analogy is more akin to a mechanical oscillator.

From my perspective any flywheel that's rotating at a fixed speed ( doesn't matter what speed ) is resonant. My reasoning ? The flywheel, once up to speed requires far less energy than it took to get there.

Kind regards,  Graham.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: web000x on April 04, 2017, 06:27:15 PM
I'll just leave this here for anyone who cares:


Gyroscopic Primer by Prof Eric Laithwaite (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OpCEJxO6V9g)


Dave
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Erfinder on April 04, 2017, 06:57:09 PM
I'll just leave this here for anyone who cares:


Gyroscopic Primer by Prof Eric Laithwaite


Dave

I care!


You will not find a soul to take the gyroscope and its relation to the subject serious..... 


It seems to be a running theme with brilliant researchers named Eric, they don't show you practical applications for their findings.....


A self resonant flywheel.....GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 04, 2017, 08:15:17 PM
Why, what this analogy explains/predict? BTW Does self-resonating flywheel exist?

It's simply meant to give you insight into a self-resonating coil.  What is resonance?  I can tell you from experience that many people use the term without even knowing what it means.  Resonance is energy cycling back and forth between two complimentary energy storage mechanisms.  In a coil it is the inductance and the self-capacitance when the coil is self-resonating.  In a flywheel it is the moment of inertia and the spring associated with the deformation of the metal when the flywheel is self-resonating.  All flywheels can self-resonate and in real life that is almost always a condition that is to be avoided.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 04, 2017, 08:27:37 PM
Dear MileHigh.

On the contrary, I don't think there was a point to be missed.

Your flywheel ceased to be a " Flywheel " the moment it stopped rotating. IMO your analogy is more akin to a mechanical oscillator.

From my perspective any flywheel that's rotating at a fixed speed ( doesn't matter what speed ) is resonant. My reasoning ? The flywheel, once up to speed requires far less energy than it took to get there.

Kind regards,  Graham.

Sorry, but the analogy was stated specifically to compare a self-resonating coil with a self-resonating flywheel.  A coil is not really fulfilling the function of a coil when no current is passing through it and instead it is simply self-resonating.  Likewise a flywheel is not really fulfilling the function of a flywheel when it is not spinning and instead it is simply self-resonating.  However, both cases deserve to be studied and there is information to be gleamed from understanding them.

The study is much more applicable to mechanical flywheels.  Take the case where a gear is spinning and a clutch engages to effectively knock the gear up to a higher RPM with a strong impulse.  The gear will self-resonate momentarily from the strong impulse that knocks it up to a higher RPM while it is still spinning.  Excessive vibrations from these impulses could reduce the life of the gear from metal fatigue.

Nope, a spinning flywheel is not resonating and doesn't meet the definition of resonance.  Same thing when you have DC current flowing through a coil, there is no resonance.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 04, 2017, 08:52:13 PM
I'll just leave this here for anyone who cares:

Gyroscopic Primer by Prof Eric Laithwaite (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OpCEJxO6V9g)

Dave

This discussion is not about the angular momentum of a gyroscope and how it responds when you try to change the orientation.  This discussion is about the energy dynamics of a self-resonating coil and the equivalent self-resonating flywheel.  The stuff about the angular momentum is a completely different discussion.

Note again that you don't even have to consider the magnetic field and internal electric field of the self-resonating coil.  The process of vector addition for the magnetic field has been explained multiple times.  The vector addition concepts also apply to the electric field.  For a simple example of a self-resonating coil, or a coil with DC or AC current flowing through it, there is nothing special about the energy stored in the magnetic field.  I can see from what Evostars is reading that there is what appears to be a lots of pseudoscience mysticism associated with coils and the magnetic fields associated with coils.  IMO it's just pulp to capture eyeballs and sell books, downloads, and DVDs and make a living for yourself.

Yes we have evolved from stars. We are stardust, and we all want a nice lush green garden to get back to.

The same people also said this:

You who are on the road
Must have a code that you can live by
And so become yourself
Because the past is just a good-bye.

Teach your children well,
Their father's hell did slowly go by,
And feed them on your dreams
The one they picks, the one you'll know by.

Yes we can all dream.  But we also have a responsibility to teach ourselves and teach others the real truth so that we can go out and make the world a better place.  It's a code of honour and responsibility and respect for ourselves and for others in the world.  In other words, learn and respect the truth and reject the lies and the crap that we have to deal with every day.  You need to amass enough knowledge to be able to discern between the truth and the junk.  It's not easy, but one would hope that you would want to try.

MileHigh

CNN caught lying red-handed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ihr7z9P_xaQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ihr7z9P_xaQ)

CNN caught in a double-lie:  She says that "(CNN) inadvertently and wrongly characterized."  There was nothing inadvertent about it.  They intentionally edited a clip to completely change the message that someone was saying.  It is absolutely obscene that they did that.  And the only reason they apologized for their lying is because other ordinary people were recording the same event on their cellphones and posted the truth on YouTube.  Take the Red Pill.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: webby1 on April 04, 2017, 10:20:08 PM

You will not find a soul to take the gyroscope and its relation to the subject serious..... 


Not so sure about that one Erfinder.

It could be more like it has never been taught that way,, to think about that kind of interactive relationship that is.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: NRamaswami on April 04, 2017, 10:35:44 PM
Dear Mile High

I requested you to explain your theory and if you have a working circuit I again request you to post it. I have received no response and you have moved to seelf resonating flywheel.

Please I again request you to respond.

Regards

Ramaswami



Sure I would be happy to explain this to you again.  Typically high-frequency voltage travels down the single wire.  However, with no current flow you cannot transfer any AC power into the load.  So the question is how do you get current to flow when there is no apparent current loop in the circuit?  As we know, for current to flow, there must be a loop.

We also know that there exists so-called "stray" (a.k.a. parasitic) capacitance everywhere.  A capacitor is just two conducting plates separated by a distance.  Let's look at a trivial example.  Suppose you are outside in your back yard.  Let's say there is an insulating plastic lawn chair that you are sitting in and your feet are not touching the ground.  We know that the ground is conductive and there is always some moisture in the ground that helps it become more conductive.  We also know the human body is basically salty water, and so the human body is conductive.

Therefore, when you sit on an insulating plastic chair in your back yard with your feet not touching the ground we can say that there is a measurable capacitance between your body and the ground.  It may be very small, perhaps 100 pF, but it is there and it is measurable.  In reality, there is stray or parasitic capacitance everywhere.

It is this stray capacitance that allows AC current to conduct in a current loop that allows for so-called "single wire power transmission."

Here is a typical circuit current loop:

<earth ground> ---> <stray capacitor #1> ---> <high frequency AC signal generator> ---> <load> ---> <stray capacitor #2> ---> <back to earth ground>

When you do a "single wire power transmission" experiment there are typically two "invisible" stray capacitors that allow AC current to flow.  Therefore the load sees both voltage and current and therefore AC power gets transferred into the load.  Small neon lights and LEDs require very little power to light up and that's why you often see them lit in experiments like this.

This is a fairly straightforward concept that should be understood by people interested in experimenting with electronics.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 04, 2017, 11:43:36 PM
I'll just leave this here for anyone who cares:


Gyroscopic Primer by Prof Eric Laithwaite (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OpCEJxO6V9g)


Dave

Thanks Dave, very really good video . Is not like i ear sometimes some people say that learn in youtube only make persons dumb "DumbTube" . :)

Thanks


Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 05, 2017, 10:54:48 AM
I'll just leave this here for anyone who cares:


Gyroscopic Primer by Prof Eric Laithwaite (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OpCEJxO6V9g)


Dave
Thanks, gread vid. watched it last night.  interesting what a gyroscope does with weight.
but i cant see an anology with a oscilating bifilar coil.  its not alternating, it looks more like Dc. constant velocity (and slowing down).
still the current is pulsed through a spiral coil inward or outward.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 05, 2017, 11:59:04 AM
Well ,
I received this from Gary Vesperman ,an Old Timer in the FE world ,Apparently there is a "TF"conference in Moscow
and Peng Gao's work and others are being discussed .
Snip
Peng Gao's torsion field paper

 paper is in the following link:
http://vixra.org/pdf/1607.0130v1.pdf

Abstract—Scalar wave was found and used at first by Nikola
Tesla in his wireless energy transmission experiment. Prof.K.Meyl
extended the Maxwell equation and found the lost scalar wave
part. The scalar wave theory proposed by Prof.K.Meyl indicates
that the torsion field is the nature of scalar wave. This work
attempts to detect the torsion field nature of scalar wave generated
by the dual Tesla coil system, using the torsion balance consisting
of a wooden frame. The result is positive and two kinds of torsion
field including left-handed and right-handed are detected in dual
Tesla coil system.

snip
II. DESCRIPTION OF DEVICES AND METHODOLOGY
In this work, the Phase-Conjugate-Resonator consists of two
standard pancake Tesla coils
, two wooden frames in different
size, and some auxiliary objects were used. In this section,
it will be discussed in three parts: the Phase-Conjugate-
Resonator, the methodology and the full configuration of hardware.
-----------------------------------------

Gary is a great fellow and a champion of the hazards of wireless Wifi in the western united states [many worldwide studies showing this newer stronger Wifi and its dangers to Children and others.

respectfully
Chet K



Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: web000x on April 05, 2017, 01:16:09 PM
Thanks, gread vid. watched it last night.  interesting what a gyroscope does with weight.
but i cant see an anology with a oscilating bifilar coil.  its not alternating, it looks more like Dc. constant velocity (and slowing down).
still the current is pulsed through a spiral coil inward or outward.


I am not 100% sure of the correlations.  But there is something about gyroscopes having an orthogonal relationship that reminds me of the workings of electricity.  My mind is open..


Dave


PS. If Newman was able to build self motoring devices from applying gyroscopic concepts to his machines, the thought must not be dismissed.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 05, 2017, 02:11:29 PM
Dear Mile High

I requested you to explain your theory and if you have a working circuit I again request you to post it. I have received no response and you have moved to seelf resonating flywheel.

Please I again request you to respond.

Regards

Ramaswami

The theory was pretty much explained.  There are hundreds of YouTube clips that show LEDs and neons being lit from "one wire."  There are many circuits that generate high-frequency high-voltage AC.  You can Google search and YouTube search on this.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 05, 2017, 02:50:47 PM
Thanks Dave, very really good video . Is not like i ear sometimes some people say that learn in youtube only make persons dumb "DumbTube" . :)

Thanks

Nelson Rocha

I think Carroll was just complaining about the fact that many people interested in free energy look towards the wrong people on YouTube.

In fact, there are thousands of legitimate clips about electronics from hundreds of presenters.

Here is a sample:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_fDlJXX9UI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_fDlJXX9UI)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKLKoPMaIsQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKLKoPMaIsQ)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrRmihdF52o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrRmihdF52o)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yk4C24N5qQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yk4C24N5qQ)

A lot of these clips require that you have an understanding of basic calculus:  The derivative of sine is cosine, the integral of cosine is negative sine.  This makes many people run away from the legitimate information.

You have probably read so many discussions about transformers.  One of the clips I linked to goes over the model for a transformer and how it works with inductive and capacitive loads, see the attached image.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: NRamaswami on April 05, 2017, 02:58:13 PM
So you post your theories based on youtube videos done by others..And your advice is to google for the circuits that can produce High voltage and High Frequency AC and again your theories are based on this and not on direct personal handson experimental knowledge..And you think you can put advice. Amazing.

In India we have a story of a monk who was requested to advice a young boy addicted to Sugar and sweets. The Monk refused to advice and gave the advice only after six months to the boy who instantly followed. The monk explained that to give this advice he had to first control himself and avoid taking sweets for only then it will have an impact. hmm..times are far far different now.

The theory was pretty much explained.  There are hundreds of YouTube clips that show LEDs and neons being lit from "one wire."  There are many circuits that generate high-frequency high-voltage AC.  You can Google search and YouTube search on this.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 05, 2017, 03:07:12 PM
 NRamaswami

maybe what you seek is here
experiments with scalar waves resonance and Pancake coils
http://vixra.org/pdf/1607.0130v1.pdf   [from post #372 today]

if our discussions are kept "proper" we could probably invite guests here [above link]
or even do experiments to explore these claims ?

respectfully
Chet k

Ps
RE Milehigh
he spent plenty of time on the bench ,once you know how to walk or run
it really doesn't need more "study" but it does qualify you to help others who are just learning .

just one mans opinion
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 05, 2017, 05:01:58 PM
Well ,
I received this from Gary Vesperman ,an Old Timer in the FE world ,Apparently there is a "TF"conference in Moscow
and Peng Gao's work and others are being discussed .
Snip
Peng Gao's torsion field paper

 paper is in the following link:
http://vixra.org/pdf/1607.0130v1.pdf (http://vixra.org/pdf/1607.0130v1.pdf)

Abstract—Scalar wave was found and used at first by Nikola
Tesla in his wireless energy transmission experiment. Prof.K.Meyl
extended the Maxwell equation and found the lost scalar wave
part. The scalar wave theory proposed by Prof.K.Meyl indicates
that the torsion field is the nature of scalar wave. This work
attempts to detect the torsion field nature of scalar wave generated
by the dual Tesla coil system, using the torsion balance consisting
of a wooden frame. The result is positive and two kinds of torsion
field including left-handed and right-handed are detected in dual
Tesla coil system.

snip
II. DESCRIPTION OF DEVICES AND METHODOLOGY
In this work, the Phase-Conjugate-Resonator consists of two
standard pancake Tesla coils
, two wooden frames in different
size, and some auxiliary objects were used. In this section,
it will be discussed in three parts: the Phase-Conjugate-
Resonator, the methodology and the full configuration of hardware.
-----------------------------------------

Gary is a great fellow and a champion of the hazards of wireless Wifi in the western united states [many worldwide studies showing this newer stronger Wifi and its dangers to Children and others.

respectfully
Chet K

Chet, there are many things wrong with the "experiments" described in that paper.  I put "experiments" in quotes because, as is typical, they are not actually experiments but rather are demonstrations of an effect. No proper control experiments were performed and so, the demonstrations of the noted effects are not able to assign causality. That is, the rotations observed in the demonstrations cannot be definitely assigned to "torsion fields". In fact I have a strong suspicion that the observed rotations are actually caused by the very same phenomenon that I demonstrate in my "low hanging fruit" videos.

Vixra is a site for self-publishing non-peer-reviewed papers that do not even rise to the standard of the Arxiv pre-publication website.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 05, 2017, 05:12:49 PM
So you post your theories based on youtube videos done by others..And your advice is to google for the circuits that can produce High voltage and High Frequency AC and again your theories are based on this and not on direct personal handson experimental knowledge..And you think you can put advice. Amazing.

In India we have a story of a monk who was requested to advice a young boy addicted to Sugar and sweets. The Monk refused to advice and gave the advice only after six months to the boy who instantly followed. The monk explained that to give this advice he had to first control himself and avoid taking sweets for only then it will have an impact. hmm..times are far far different now.

In India there are many stories about many different things. There are god-men who can manifest vibhuti from their fingertips and make cheap watches and rings appear out of nowhere. There are fakirs who can sit for hours three feet in the air, just leaning on a simple staff. There are monks with rotten teeth and diabetes. Can you arrange an interview with your formerly sweets-addicted monk for us?

Mile High is a "monk" who long ago dealt with his "sweets" and so is in a good position to give theoretical advice. He has already explained to you how HF HV circuits can light up LEDs and other bulbs with "one wire" by taking advantage of the inevitable capacitive coupling to ground. He does not need to show you _his_ circuits that perform this way... it should be sufficient for you to see _my_ circuits that do these things, or the circuits of countless others demonstrated on YouTube. Or even your own circuits.

I don't have to perform the experiment myself to understand that if I jump off a ten story building flapping my arms and tweeting like a bird, the results will not be favourable. An examination of relevant theory and the "experiments" and experiences of others are sufficient. Although I think some people here would like to see me perform that experiment for myself!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 05, 2017, 05:25:54 PM
I think Carroll was just complaining about the fact that many people interested in free energy look towards the wrong people on YouTube.

In fact, there are thousands of legitimate clips about electronics from hundreds of presenters.

Here is a sample:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_fDlJXX9UI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_fDlJXX9UI)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKLKoPMaIsQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKLKoPMaIsQ)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrRmihdF52o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrRmihdF52o)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yk4C24N5qQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yk4C24N5qQ)

A lot of these clips require that you have an understanding of basic calculus:  The derivative of sine is cosine, the integral of cosine is negative sine.  This makes many people run away from the legitimate information.

You have probably read so many discussions about transformers.  One of the clips I linked to goes over the model for a transformer and how it works with inductive and capacitive loads, see the attached image.

MileHigh


MileHigh ,

I have not talked about, in any particular person,
I just keep in my memory the "DumbTube" word, because I found grace, to illustrate the idea that we are not able to learn in by youtube .

I also did not say that everything we see on youtube is valid information, but the problem in my perspective, is that we can not include everything in the same "bag" because there are capable and serious people who share very valid information .
You yourself recurrently use examples taken from youtube, and I'm sorry if I'm being unfair at what I'm going to say, but  I've never seen anything practical done by you like a simple circuit to be evaluated from others persons .
Maybe my inattention, and if so, my apologies.

Myself already share some years ago some diagrams of some of my circuits , that simple not evaluated by the most people only because considerations like you do sometimes; the doubting minority, who doubted and gave the opportunity to verify for themselves in a practical meaning , found something different than would be expected .

Did i try impose something to that people ? Not . I just give a chance to people knows or not other perspective  , my perspective , and is lawful, that those who do not agree do not evaluate them , i respect this , but without aggression or impose anything .

The wisdom, is of the one who knows how to listen and filter the good content of the less good, and comprises both sides to arrive at a final and profitable conclusion. Otherwise persons like Nikola Tesla , or even Prof Eric Laithwaite will not have so much critical in their work .

What story can tell us about the novel persons and researchers that disagree in their own time, of already implemented ideas in general by scientific community ? Yes we know what happen to that poor guys ... Even with such high value information that they left in their legacy.
Sometimes we need several years to "real and carved in stone laws" be replaced by new reformulations and improved of that same laws, and that already happen more than one time , and will continue for sure happen.
This forum being a space for discussion about alternative research,it should be an example not of imposition but of healthy debate, something that hardly happens, because systematically, when some matter is discussed outside the normal and agreed-upon lines, pressure is immediately felt for total discrediting and seen as unfounded information.

I just ear most of times : Probe your claims ! No one need to probe nothing to no one , indeed discuss in a health ambient the bad and good points without , showing altruism egocentric and lack of consideration people's work and effort, even if it is not valid in the eyes of others.
That call's RESPECT.

Anyone could search youtube channels like NPTEL, STANFORD, MIT OCW, CALTECH and much others, to learn "carved in stone information" , but the opposite will not happen, because in this channels you wont find any single information about any "alternative" thoughts or ideas that we find in this forum shared by people , otherwise what is the meaning to that forum call Overunity ?
In my perspective, this forum should  be to  discuss alternative ideas, even some of this ideas could not feet to what some  people consider right or not .

That is my perspective , and it will be perfect normal that you or even all the world disagree, and even that i will maintain my ideas .
 Not all people are so incompetent in this forum, even though they have the amateur label that they refuse to learn with "high degree teachers" .

This is  questioning, experimenting, observing, and digesting information, and then comparing with current laws to understand what is different, or wrong , not only because i or you say that others need to believe in a "blind" mode and make that like a irrefutable opinion .

Best luck to you


Nelson Rocha



 
 


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 05, 2017, 05:27:45 PM
And as far as Laithwaite and gyroscopes are concerned.... he himself acknowledged, before he died, that he was simply wrong about many of his claims made in that Christmas lecture. You can even see, by careful observation in that video, some of his errors. I have done considerable experimentation with forced precession of gyroscopes myself, as have other real scientists. Unfortunately there is no real weight loss available from forced precession, but there are some very interesting effects that can be seen and that will definitely fool the hopeful into believing all kinds of things that aren't really true. Yes, the closest thing to an actual antigravity experience I have seen was in one of my own forced-precession experimental devices. But no, the device as a whole did not "lose weight" vertically or produce reactionless thrust horizontally, and neither did the combination of Laithwaite+gyroscope wheel in his own demonstrations. In his demos the effort to lift the spinning wheel under forced precession is transferred from his arms only, to the rest of his body mainly including his legs.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 05, 2017, 05:51:07 PM
By the way... in case anyone actually cares.... my "coil current direction" demonstrations posted pages ago also work just the same way when "Tesla Bifilar Pancake" coils are used.

I finally found 2 of my own TBFP coils buried under the detritus in my lab storage spaces to test them in the demonstration. Because they use much less wire and have no inductance-increasing cores they have smaller inductances (under 1 mH, about 4 ohms) and less DC resistance than the small relay coil (about 40 mH, about 45 ohms) I used for the YT videos, hence they store less energy in their magnetic field, which means the LED flash brightness and duration is less when the power is disconnected, but the results from the test are qualitatively exactly the same. The current continues to flow _in the same direction_  as when power is on, and makes the LED flash just as when using the relay coil.

Of course "some of us" will not be surprised by this result. Others will apparently ignore it totally since it conflicts with their mis-pre-conceptions.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 05, 2017, 05:59:19 PM
Nelson, you said
Quote
This forum being a space for discussion about alternative research,it should be an example not of imposition but of healthy debate, something that hardly happens, because systematically, when some matter is discussed outside the normal and agreed-upon lines, pressure is immediately felt for total discrediting and seen as unfounded information.

This works both ways, as we have seen lately. When someone presents "information" or an "opinion" or a wild off-the-wall claim that is unsupported by experimental evidence and someone else comes in with a factual correction, checkable outside references and experiments of their own to demonstrate that the unsupported "information" or "opinion" is flat-out wrong.... you see all kinds of resistance to that, name-calling, ignoring, and even calls for "banning" made by persons who have never deigned to present a single experiment of their own. What part of that attitude represents healthy debate?

Where, for example, is the "healthy debate" about my demonstrations that coil current does not reverse when power is interrupted? Where are the retractions or refutations from those who _still_ claim that it does, in spite of all evidence, theoretical references and actual demonstrations that it does not reverse?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 05, 2017, 06:09:22 PM
Nelson, you said
This works both ways, as we have seen lately. When someone presents "information" or an "opinion" or a wild off-the-wall claim that is unsupported by experimental evidence and someone else comes in with a factual correction, checkable outside references and experiments of their own to demonstrate that the unsupported "information" or "opinion" is flat-out wrong.... you see all kinds of resistance to that, name-calling, ignoring, and even calls for "banning" made by persons who have never deigned to present a single experiment of their own. What part of that attitude represents healthy debate?

Where, for example, is the "healthy debate" about my demonstrations that coil current does not reverse when power is interrupted? Where are the retractions or refutations from those who _still_ claim that it does, in spite of all evidence, theoretical references and actual demonstrations that it does not reverse?

@Tinselkoala,

The topic of this thread is: "The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency". The direction of current when power is interupted is off topic; However, since you forced this other issue, maybe you can tell us which direction current travels in the "Ruhmkopff Coil Secondary Winding", when power is interupted in the primary?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 05, 2017, 06:16:01 PM
NRamaswami said
Quote
You seem to be amazingly well funded ...

Hah! You get a ROFL for that one! Actually exactly the opposite is true. Except for a couple of projects years ago, I have been amazingly NOT funded at all.

Which is why I cannot afford to buy more breadboards or special wire or a better video camera or even a few transistors here and there. My days of gainful employment or outside funding are apparently long gone. For example many of my coil projects use #27 magnet wire from a 20-pound spool that I bought from a surplus store in 2002 and which is just about empty by now. I have received a few very nice gifts of equipment over the years, like the Rigol scope that my friends crowd-funded for me several years ago, and a Fluke 87-III DMM that the late MarkE sent me, along with a few other tools, but my miniature machine shop is still "missing in action" out of my reach.

I think many people are probably hoping that I'll quit when the wire finally runs out. And maybe I will.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 05, 2017, 06:18:45 PM
Nelson, you said
This works both ways, as we have seen lately. When someone presents "information" or an "opinion" or a wild off-the-wall claim that is unsupported by experimental evidence and someone else comes in with a factual correction, checkable outside references and experiments of their own to demonstrate that the unsupported "information" or "opinion" is flat-out wrong.... you see all kinds of resistance to that, name-calling, ignoring, and even calls for "banning" made by persons who have never deigned to present a single experiment of their own. What part of that attitude represents healthy debate?

Where, for example, is the "healthy debate" about my demonstrations that coil current does not reverse when power is interrupted? Where are the retractions or refutations from those who _still_ claim that it does, in spite of all evidence, theoretical references and actual demonstrations that it does not reverse?

Hi TK ,


You or no one can judge everyone in same manner and put all i same "bag" , i either not make that about you and your work, even i don't like your caustic way of talk most of the times to persons  , but you are a different "species" :) because yours answers are supported by your efforts in practical mean , show practical tests, ind other hand , some of tests that you show could not be the perfect example because your designs obey to your own data , and if you don't know others details data, some of your practical tests could have very different results from other experimenters .  I'm not referring at any particular test , just to Beef up .

The problem is that topic is already die much time ago , and now only it become in a "aggression" arena of talk and a disputed off egos, nothing more .
 I'm not defending anyone, unlike you did  , I think people are adults as much as necessary, to wield their arguments for themselves.


All the best to you .

Nelson Rocha 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 05, 2017, 06:21:56 PM
@Tinselkoala,

The topic of this thread is: "The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency". The direction of current when power is interupted is off topic; However, since you forced this other issue, maybe you can tell us which direction current travels in the "Ruhmkopff Coil Secondary Winding", when power is interupted in the primary?

No, the issue was "forced" by people who claimed otherwise and refused to examine the evidence presented when making their demonstrably false claims. I did not bring up the issue but when I encounter... shall we say... BS, I will often jump in with actual facts and experiments or demonstrations of my own to correct the errors that other people make and assert.

 And I'm still waiting for some evidence from you that scrapyard magnets are wound using the Tesla Bifilar winding.

The issue of what happens in a _secondary_ coil when the _primary_ is pulsed is completely answered by Faraday's law of induction. Of course it takes some education in the Calculus to understand it. Feel free to provide some demonstrations of your own to make your point. If you can, that is.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 05, 2017, 10:02:36 PM
No, the issue was "forced" by people who claimed otherwise and refused to examine the evidence presented when making their demonstrably false claims. I did not bring up the issue but when I encounter... shall we say... BS, I will often jump in with actual facts and experiments or demonstrations of my own to correct the errors that other people make and assert.

 And I'm still waiting for some evidence from you that scrapyard magnets are wound using the Tesla Bifilar winding.

The issue of what happens in a _secondary_ coil when the _primary_ is pulsed is completely answered by Faraday's law of induction. Of course it takes some education in the Calculus to understand it. Feel free to provide some demonstrations of your own to make your point. If you can, that is.

@Tinselkola,

The Ruhmkopff secondary generates A.C. current as everyone knows. The issue is the definition of "Negative Current". Your LED is a D.C. bulb therefore it flickers because it can only use one half of the current. We're dealing with semantics. I explained eighteen months ago to Woopyjump that the magnetic field collapse "Reversed the Current" and Citfa crawled all over me and got me "Eighty Sixed" for a year and a half. My question to you is; Is Positive current the reverse of negative current? So what if the current chooses the same pathway.

Conradelectro asked me how a coil could store a charge when the wire ends are not connected to anything. One might ask the same question of a capacitor after the power source's disconnected!

Shocking both the single wire coil and the bifilar results in different stored charges as Tesla explains. The bifilar resonance causes the coil to hold on to it's charge longer. Shocking the bifilar on a ferrite core actually causes the charge to increase spontaneously untill the ferrite core transmutes into a permanent magnet. Pulsing a bifilar over a pile of scrap magnetizes the scrap and the scrap attracts itself to the Iron plate under the coil.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 06, 2017, 01:03:06 AM
So, you evidently didn't watch my second coil current direction video. Or perhaps you simply didn't understand it, since it does not fit in with your mis-pre-conceptions. So I'll post the link again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X66foYixu9Y

You were wrong before and you are still wrong now.

You are the champion at misrepresenting my work and the work of others, so it comes as no surprise that you misrepresent the work of Tesla, and even misrepresent the construction and use of scrapyard magnets.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 06, 2017, 02:20:04 AM
So, you evidently didn't watch my second coil current direction video. Or perhaps you simply didn't understand it, since it does not fit in with your mis-pre-conceptions. So I'll post the link again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X66foYixu9Y

You were wrong before and you are still wrong now.

You are the champion at misrepresenting my work and the work of others, so it comes as no surprise that you misrepresent the work of Tesla, and even misrepresent the construction and use of scrapyard magnets.

@Tinselkoala,

You're just an over grown garbage scrounger. You can't define "Negative Current".

Shock charge your two coils and see which one picks the most material up after a time lapse. This is where the bifilar coil develops twice the strength compared to the single wire. I hammered seven years on you and you still can't understand what the hell I'm talking about.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 06, 2017, 04:05:48 AM
This is where the bifilar coil develops twice the strength compared to the single wire.

No, in fact the bifilar coil does not develop twice the strength of magnetic field as compared to a single-wire coil with the same number of turns.  This argument is a revolving-door at this point in time.

The reason it does not develop twice the magnetic field strength is because the strength of the magnetic field is proportional to the ampere-turns of the coil.

Here are Conrad's two clips that I helped him with from three years ago that prove that the magnetic field strength is the same:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCEqnX1JsGw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvDUAcC1hbk

In discussing general issues on the forum, one of its weaknesses is that people can post what is obviously incorrect information and many people that know the information is incorrect will say nothing.  There is only a handful of people that will speak up and make corrections.

It makes me think of the phenomenon in Nature where migrating moose get confused when crossing a river. The calves are very young and some of them can't keep up with the cows when they swim across the river.  So the cows end up swimming back to the original shore to try to find their calves.  What ends up happening is a mass confusion with mother cows swimming back and forth across the river for hours in a desperate attempt to find their young.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 06, 2017, 05:33:31 AM
@Tinselkoala,

You're just an over grown garbage scrounger. You can't define "Negative Current".

Shock charge your two coils and see which one picks the most material up after a time lapse. This is where the bifilar coil develops twice the strength compared to the single wire. I hammered seven years on you and you still can't understand what the hell I'm talking about.

You are funny. It must be terribly frustrating to be you. Proven wrong over and over, making stuff up out of thin air, misrepresenting everyone's work, posting comment after comment at EF with nobody responding... why don't you try holding your breath until you turn blue and stomping your feet. Maybe you'll get some attention then.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 06, 2017, 01:41:13 PM
@Tinselkoala,

.......... You can't define "Negative Current".

Maybe not .... but for sure knows what is negative resistance, or magneto-electrostatic energy  hope so... or maybe otherwize i  will ear that is only "Pseudo science"
Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 06, 2017, 01:52:54 PM
Negative current is an imaginary fiction created by those that have active imagination and no real learning.  Current is neither negative or positive.  Voltage can be negative or positive.  But current is just a way of expressing how much electricity is moving through a wire or other conductor.  Trying to define negative current is like trying to define negative gallons.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 06, 2017, 01:54:56 PM
Seems a race is in order here/competition ?

most here don't understand what the claims are ?

if you truly have something special ..it should be able to do something {anything} which standard science can't do

if its a magnetic effect ?it should pull more with less power
a test would be the guy who picks up the most with the least input [WINS

if its a levitation claim
same test
etc etc etc
no need to divulge any secret technologies ,just run a black box test

make a claim and prove it ??
no need for us to see how you are doing it at all
just power in and the claim

a wireless transmission claim ?
very easy to do a contest there

Imagine that ,
you want change in the world ??
be that change and live by example !!

a competition !!

respectfully
Chet k
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 06, 2017, 01:55:52 PM
Negative current is an imaginary fiction created by those that have active imagination and no real learning.  Current is neither negative or positive.  Voltage can be negative or positive.  But current is just a way of expressing how much electricity is moving through a wire or other conductor.

How ... if you say we should believe ..... in fact when you loose your imagination you loose everything...

Nelson Rocha 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 06, 2017, 02:07:43 PM
Seems a race is in order here/competition ?

most here don't understand what the claims are ?

if you truly have something special ..it should be able to do something {anything} which standard science can't do

if its a magnetic effect ?it should pull more with less power
a test would be the guy who picks up the most with the least input [WINS

if its a levitation claim
same test
etc etc etc
no need to divulge any secret technologies ,just run a black box test

make a claim and prove it ??
no need for us to see how you are doing it at all
just power in and the claim

a wireless transmission claim ?
very easy to do a contest there

Imagine that ??

respectfully
Chet k

Ramset ,

That is not a contest , ether a competition to me .I did not any "claims" and my work are proved in real world by industries, and judged by electric Eng not by me :) ,in that way seems very fair and impartial,  and i'm not waiting or ask to deserve any validation from no one on this forum . That is clear ?
If i'm search any support to any of my work , it will make more sense i made what you are ask , otherwise not make sense . Sounds logical to you?
If you have interest in what i do, for sure you will find what you want ;)

Respectfully

Nelson Rocha
 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 06, 2017, 02:24:31 PM
Hi Nelson,

Let me explain where I am coming from.  I firmly believe we should be seeking new things.  I have been doing OU experiments and research for 10 years now.  There are some on here that don't believe OU or free energy can even be possible.  I am NOT one of those.

I have strong background in electronics.  And when I see someone posting what I know is foolishness I am going to post against that.  WHY, you may ask.  Because I have seen what happens when people blindly follow those that are spouting garbage.  If you wanted to waste a lot of time you can go to the Energetic Forum and find a thread there about an asynchronous motor project.  Several of us tried to get some real answers about this project.  We were ridiculed and cussed out for daring to question the project.  Several people spent several HUNDRED dollars building this special motor that only ended up burning up and drawing huge amounts of current.  Were those of us with electronic backgrounds wrong to question that project?  If we had been listened to, a lot of people would have saved a lot of money.

If you were a highly trained auto mechanic and I came to you and told you I have discovered you can make the engine run better by changing the air in the tires would you listen with an open mind or would you immediately try to tell me I didn't understand about engines.  I know this is a ridiculous example but a lot of what I see on this forum and others is just as ridiculous to those of us that have worked in electronics for years.

I will continue to search for a way to create OU or free energy.  And I know I have to keep an open mind about the possibilities.  But I am not going to be so open minded my brains fall out.

Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 06, 2017, 02:28:44 PM
Most here haven't a clue what you are trying to show.
everything you have shown is not unusual , but one question I do have
you point to a white power box or ?? in you vid with the water on the coil[I think]
I cannot see what it says or reads there ?

maybe that is where your path is obvious ?
and I missed it??

How can we look when we don't even know your claim ??
or have a frame of reference for comparison ??

regarding "Interested Engineers" looking at things as a claim ?
I see this every day ??

the claim would be nice to know ?


respectfully
Chet K


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 06, 2017, 02:58:11 PM
hereby I claim post #400
hihi
 ;D
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 06, 2017, 03:28:09 PM
Negative current is an imaginary fiction created by those that have active imagination and no real learning.  Current is neither negative or positive.  Voltage can be negative or positive.  But current is just a way of expressing how much electricity is moving through a wire or other conductor.  Trying to define negative current is like trying to define negative gallons.

Lawerance Tsueng is about 10,000 times brighter then you; You stinking fraud. Stop misrepresenting basic fundamentals as though you can outshine his "Search Light" mind with your dead lighting bug luminescence. You are dumber than pig shit.

Every amp meter has minus sign!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 06, 2017, 04:04:40 PM
evostar
there was a day here where Allen's post above would add 100 pages of flame wars in 5 minutes
a better goal would be

what have we accomplished in these 400 posts ??

seems we have one opportunity with Allen to investigate a claim , if he can bite the lip and post a claim or experiment to bolster
his claim.??

Allen ??
cussing , swearing and name calling makes your argument look weak .
do you have a simple "proof of concept"

Chet K


 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 06, 2017, 04:22:32 PM
evostar
there was a day here where Allen's post above would add 100 pages of flame wars in 5 minutes
a better goal would be

what have we accomplished in these 400 posts ??

seems we have one opportunity with Allen to investigate a claim , if he can bite the lip and post a claim or experiment to bolster
his claim.??

Allen ??
cussing , swearing and name calling makes your argument look weak .
do you have a simple "proof of concept"

Chet K

                                                                                                                                                                           
"When the magnet is moved away, current flows in the opposite direction in the solenoid".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HyORmBip-w
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 06, 2017, 04:41:14 PM
Hi Nelson,

Let me explain where I am coming from.  I firmly believe we should be seeking new things.  I have been doing OU experiments and research for 10 years now.  There are some on here that don't believe OU or free energy can even be possible.  I am NOT one of those.

I have strong background in electronics.  And when I see someone posting what I know is foolishness I am going to post against that.  WHY, you may ask.  Because I have seen what happens when people blindly follow those that are spouting garbage.  If you wanted to waste a lot of time you can go to the Energetic Forum and find a thread there about an asynchronous motor project.  Several of us tried to get some real answers about this project.  We were ridiculed and cussed out for daring to question the project.  Several people spent several HUNDRED dollars building this special motor that only ended up burning up and drawing huge amounts of current.  Were those of us with electronic backgrounds wrong to question that project?  If we had been listened to, a lot of people would have saved a lot of money.

If you were a highly trained auto mechanic and I came to you and told you I have discovered you can make the engine run better by changing the air in the tires would you listen with an open mind or would you immediately try to tell me I didn't understand about engines.  I know this is a ridiculous example but a lot of what I see on this forum and others is just as ridiculous to those of us that have worked in electronics for years.

I will continue to search for a way to create OU or free energy.  And I know I have to keep an open mind about the possibilities.  But I am not going to be so open minded my brains fall out.

Respectfully,
Carroll


“Let me explain where I am coming from. I firmly believe we should be seeking new things. I have been doing OU experiments and research for 10 years now. “

Carrol , to me is not relevant where you came from , because you simple don't consider even where i come from  .

“There are some on here that don't believe OU or free energy can even be possible. I am NOT one of those.”

Carrol everything is energy, the  process  used to convert energy could be not  free , and i glad that you think that could be possible exist OU otherwise not make sense you private in this forum everyday .

“I have strong background in electronics. And when I see someone posting what I know is foolishness I am going to post against that.”

Is legitime that you made that for sure , and i respect otherwise what would become of us without freedom of expression?


 “Because I have seen what happens when people blindly follow those that are spouting garbage. If you wanted to waste a lot of time you can go to the Energetic Forum and find a thread there about an asynchronous motor project.”

I real don't understand the meaning of your sentence , Did i mentioned any thing about  asynchronous motor ? I do not remember make that sorry .
Are you try persuade me to leave this forum?
If this is the case, you should first think that this forum is not restricted to a small group, in addition I think that you have not been given authority to do so.
If you consider my presence uncomfortable, I suggest you talk to Stefan and relate the situation , in that way it will be more fair and impartial what may happen next.

 “Several people spent several HUNDRED dollars building this special motor that only ended up burning up and drawing huge amounts of current. Were those of us with electronic backgrounds wrong to question that project? If we had been listened to, a lot of people would have saved a lot of money.”

Sorry but where i put any diagram to replicate my present work or persuade to do something  ?
 My last circuit that i publish in this forum was almost 3 years when i work in opensource and with less then 10€ you or anyone could replicate them .
So where you sentence apply to me ? I simple don't understand .

“If you were a highly trained auto mechanic and I came to you and told you I have discovered you can make the engine run better by changing the air in the tires would you listen with an open mind or would you immediately try to tell me I didn't understand about engines. I know this is a ridiculous example but a lot of what I see on this forum and others is just as ridiculous to those of us that have worked in electronics for years.”

“ I agree with you , but for sure i will ask them way he think in that way to understand their reasons to say that  . About what you think is ridiculous that is other story ….

“I will continue to search for a way to create OU or free energy. And I know I have to keep an open mind about the possibilities. But I am not going to be so open minded my brains fall out.”

I respect your choice , It is up to each one to choose the path he takes, some choose the easiest path, others choose more winding paths, but it all boils down to a personal choice.


Respectfully,


Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 06, 2017, 04:51:27 PM
Most here haven't a clue what you are trying to show.
everything you have shown is not unusual , but one question I do have
you point to a white power box or ?? in you vid with the water on the coil[I think]
I cannot see what it says or reads there ?

maybe that is where your path is obvious ?
and I missed it??

How can we look when we don't even know your claim ??
or have a frame of reference for comparison ??

regarding "Interested Engineers" looking at things as a claim ?
I see this every day ??

the claim would be nice to know ?


respectfully
Chet K


“Most here haven't a clue what you are trying to show.”

Ramset , i’m not try show nothing , and the links that i post was in the context to answer MH .
I already say that i’m not working in Opensource so what is the doubt ?

“everything you have shown is not unusual , but one question I do have
you point to a white power box or ?? in you vid with the water on the coil[I think]
I cannot see what it says or reads there ?”

I use my youtube channel ony to record some of my tests nothing more , like i said before and to answer MH , i’m only able to light neon bulbs in one hand and that is the reason to i provide that links .

“How can we look when we don't even know your claim ??
or have a frame of reference for comparison ??”

I only share “details” with interested people when contact me personaly not widely .
I never make any particular claim, only that pancake coil have special properties , you should read back posts i dont have patiente to write everthing again .

“regarding "Interested Engineers" looking at things as a claim ?
I see this every day ??

the claim would be nice to know ?”

Ramset i work make system’s to industries , and sell “silly” ideas nothing more , and that is my real job that put money in my home , and in that way seems industries have lot of silly people .

Respectfully,


Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 06, 2017, 04:56:36 PM
citfta,

I forget say one thing , if you call Stefan to talk about my behavior, ask him why he included some of my videos in his playlist on this very forum.

respectfully

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 06, 2017, 05:00:39 PM
Nelson
I have read many posts and the "special properties" mentioned so far ?

don't seem special at all ?

I understand that what you have found to be special is corporate information and not for open source.

I was not asking for the secret ...not at all
I realize that sometimes a simple answer can give too much info in the corporate world.
I respect that.

I respect your business deals and your livelyhood [how you feed your family]
and would hope it continues well for you ,but to add that
I never said "silly" or intimated anything of the sort.

there are millions of dollars spent every minute around the world "hunting for anomalies"
Much of it goes up in smoke
some not so much [I would hope]

have a good Life

respectfully
Chet k
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 06, 2017, 05:03:58 PM
Here's a quote from a PM from citfa dated November 15 2015:   

"If you insist on attacking me after I only tried to help you then I WILL ask that you be banned from this site".

Here's the kind of help he's referring to:

Citfa;

"Negative current is an imaginary fiction".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 06, 2017, 05:10:00 PM
Nelson
I have read many posts and the "special properties" mentioned so far ?

don't seem special at all ?

I understand that what you have found to be special is corporate information and not for open source.

I was not asking for the secret ...not at all
I realize that sometimes a simple answer can give too much info in the corporate world.
I respect that.

I respect your business deals and your livelyhood [how you feed your family]
and would hope it continues well for you ,but to add that
I never said "silly" or intimated anything of the sort.

there are millions of dollars spent every minute around the world "hunting for anomalies"
Much of it goes up in smoke
some not so much [I would hope]

have a good Life

respectfully
Chet k

Ramset ,

I appreciate your words sincerely ,
And i did not say that you call "silly" to me , but  sometime some people use much worsts words , and is easy just read the posts and you see clearly what i'm talk about . You should not individualize my words .
And yes i try have a nice live , without hurt anyone , respect other persons and other opinions , and that give me lot of pleasure , have my live in that way .
I wish you all the best .

respectfully


Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 06, 2017, 05:12:10 PM
Allen
actually your behavior here bans you already[if you read terms of service agreement
VERY FIRST SENTENCE

why not just make a simple claim instead of posting movies and other peoples stuff.

Explain this {your interpretation]  Negative Current ??
show it in action [schematic all info to replicate]

?
@ Nelson
I know I never wrote Silly
but what you write about is called "research"

opinions don't matter [members here] in research.,

its just getting people [investors] to pay for it..

                                                                            OR


we do it here open source for free, we do that everyday here already.....

Thx
Chet
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 06, 2017, 05:27:43 PM

Nelson
I know I never wrote Silly
but what you write about is called "research"

opinions don't matter [members here] in research.,

its just getting people [investors] to pay for it..

Thx
Chet

Ramset ,
The investors only pay if you have something that work , when i talk investors i'm referring to some well-known companies in the market.
Clearly you do not know my work . To me the judges of my work is made by that same companies , and i assure to you that they are much more harder then any of critical  that i receive in this forum . That is the reason to i say that negative opinions from some particular elements, don't affect me . Did i i clarify my point of view ?
Why their opinions , normally in tone of aggression and in a not constructive way,  should be more valid then others from formed Eng of that company ?  They are much more clever then others ? i think not , sorry but is my opinion .

PS- I already share in opensource some of my diagrams did you test it ? Only very few do that , to those we replicate maybe they have a different perspective .

respectfully

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 06, 2017, 05:32:50 PM
I've been playing with 3 bifilar pancake coils, and with some result. But Im not shure how to interpret this result.
I dont know how to convert the time it takes to charge the capacitors, into a expression of power.

here is some data: 4x 6.3uF capacitors, charged to 900Vdc from 0V in 3 seconds. the question rises, how are the capacitors connected...
at one side, they are all connected together (parallel). But on the otherside, they are paired, and connected to diodes. 2 form the negative, and 2 form the positive.

Anyone got the answer?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 06, 2017, 05:33:54 PM

PS- I already share in opensource some of my diagrams did you test it ? Only very few do that , to those we replicate maybe they have a different perspective .

respectfully

Nelson Rocha
Hej i didnt know that! Where can i find these diagrams?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Grumage on April 06, 2017, 05:57:10 PM
Hej i didnt know that! Where can i find these diagrams?


Dear evostars.

I had a little fun with this one from Nelson.

https://youtu.be/m6lmd0HKxOw

As did a few others, we all found interesting/different results.    ;)

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: skycollection 1 on April 06, 2017, 06:28:15 PM
I have many years sutying the pancake coils and this is my last video about my "multifilar pancake coil", this consist in six groups of pancake coils, one group consist in six pancake coils connected in series, all the groups are isolated from each other and all the pancake coils are in parallel in the same place (in a PBC PIPE) in my experiment i am using my circuit JL94 with two transistors like the drawing diagram that i am presenting in my video, when i move a magnet in the centre the circuit and the coils "enters in self oscillation" and all the groups "induces" the current to the led bulbs with great intensity, i have connected to the circuit only one group of pancake coils, the other groups are "pickup coils".
this is the experiment...: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ln7AEpxMeY
Saludos from mexico, Jorge Rebolledo
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 06, 2017, 06:30:27 PM
                                                                                                                                                                           
"When the magnet is moved away, current flows in the opposite direction in the solenoid".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HyORmBip-w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HyORmBip-w)

Is that your "definition" of Negative Current?

Then you should be happy to admit, finally, that my demonstrations prove that there is NO "NEGATIVE CURRENT" or current flowing in the opposite direction when the magnetic field of a coil collapses when power is interrupted.

If you still refuse to acknowledge that you are wrong, please explain why the Blue LED flashes (showing current definitely flowing in same direction) but the Green LED does not flash (showing that current definitely does NOT flow in the opposite or reversed direction). 

Be sure to include in your explanation the fact that the Green LED actually has a lower Vfwd than the Blue LED, so is more sensitive.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 06, 2017, 07:27:43 PM
I have many years sutying the pancake coils and this is my last video about my "multifilar pancake coil", this consist in six groups of pancake coils, one group consist in six pancake coils connected in series, all the groups are isolated from each other and all the pancake coils are in parallel in the same place (in a PBC PIPE) in my experiment i am using my circuit JL94 with two transistors like the drawing diagram that i am presenting in my video, when i move a magnet in the centre the circuit and the coils "enters in self oscillation" and all the groups "induces" the current to the led bulbs with great intensity, i have connected to the circuit only one group of pancake coils, the other groups are "pickup coils".
this is the experiment...: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ln7AEpxMeY
Saludos from mexico, Jorge Rebolledo

Thanks for share Jorge i'm a fan of your work in last years .
All the best to you


Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 06, 2017, 07:33:42 PM


Dear evostars.

I had a little fun with this one from Nelson.

https://youtu.be/m6lmd0HKxOw

As did a few others, we all found interesting/different results.    ;)

Cheers Graham.

Hi dear Grumage ,
I didn't know that you replicate the circuit , and i thank by that because only very few people test it  . hope you like it and could help you learn some interesting aspects that circuit could show  .

Take careful , to avoid hear that you are using  super capacitors, disguised as normal capacitors, to the oscillations continue after power source be disconnected ;) myself hear thousands times that ;)

cheers

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 06, 2017, 07:51:16 PM
I think, Nelson Rocha's circuit (http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=2520.0) would deserve it's own thread - if anything else than because it doesn't contain pancake coil (according to its diagram (http://i.ytimg.com/vi/TjK6OlYO9Aw/hqdefault.jpg) this coil even isn't bifilar) and it's the only selfrunner (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY3Mr2pAErw) in the wild and also author communicating at overunity.com forum in this moment (i.e. of much higher importance than some abstract discussion and frog&mice battles about interpretation of well understood phenomena). For me it looks like Joule Thief circuit with ferroresonance overunity (http://overunity.com/15124/simplest-theory-of-overunity-devices-possible).
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Grumage on April 06, 2017, 07:52:35 PM
Hi dear Grumage ,
I didn't know that you replicate the circuit , and i thank by that because only very few people test it  . hope you like it and could help you learn some interesting aspects that circuit could show  .

Take careful , to avoid hear that you are using  super capacitors, disguised as normal capacitors, to the oscillations continue after power source be disconnected ;) myself hear thousands times that ;)

cheers

Nelson Rocha

Dear Nelson.

You're welcome and yes, I had some interesting times....... AND not a single supercap in sight !!  ;D

Maybe Dog One might chip in ?

For dear Mr. Koala.....

http://overunity.com/12736/kapanadze-cousin-dally-free-energy/msg481463/#msg481463

And a good quality photo from Zeitmaschine.....

Kind regards. Graham.

edit.. Spelling mistake.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 06, 2017, 08:06:46 PM
Dear Nelson.

Your welcome and yes, I had some interesting times....... AND not a single supercap in sight !!  ;D

Maybe Dog One might chip in ?

For dear Mr. Koala.....

http://overunity.com/12736/kapanadze-cousin-dally-free-energy/msg481463/#msg481463 (http://overunity.com/12736/kapanadze-cousin-dally-free-energy/msg481463/#msg481463)

And a good quality photo from Zeitmaschine.....

Kind regards. Graham.

Thanks for posting that clear schematic.

This may help you to understand your results (disconnecting the Base of the TIP122 and still seeing oscillations).

The TIP122, if genuine (there are many Chinese fakes of all kinds of transistors) is a Darlington NPN. I have attached the internal schematic of this transistor taken from the OnSemi data sheet.

And supercaps are absolutely not needed to keep an efficient JT circuit (which this appears to be, according to the schematic and your scopeshots) oscillating (without significant load) for a long time.

ETA: When you disconnected your power supply in that video there was quite a nice spark there. What do you think caused that spark?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 06, 2017, 08:26:31 PM
Here's a quote from a PM from citfa dated November 15 2015:   

"If you insist on attacking me after I only tried to help you then I WILL ask that you be banned from this site".

Here's the kind of help he's referring to:

Citfa;

"Negative current is an imaginary fiction".

As usual Synchro is so far from the truth it is funny.  The PM he posted is from 1 1/2 years ago and has nothing to do with his ridiculous claim there is negative current.  For reference here is the thread that caused me to send that PM.

http://overunity.com/16203/inductive-kickback/

 Anyone who takes the time to read it can clearly see I started it to help him understand about inductive kickback.  When he saw he was wrong then he started using profanity against everyone in that thread.  Flaming others is against forum rules.  However I did not have to follow through on my threat to attempt to get him banned as several more senior members notified admin of his poor behavior.  As a consequence he was NOT banned as he keeps insisting.  He was put on moderated status.  This means his posts had to be approved before they would be posted on the forum.

He then went to Energetic Forum and told a bunch of lies there about several of us.  He is his own worst enemy.  He refuses to learn and when shown he is wrong he resorts to name calling and profanity.  I will not waste anymore time on this subject.  I just felt the need to set the record straight for any newcomers that might read his ridiculous claims.

Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 06, 2017, 08:42:13 PM
As usual Synchro is so far from the truth it is funny.  The PM he posted is from 1 1/2 years ago and has nothing to do with his ridiculous claim there is negative current.  For reference here is the thread that caused me to send that PM.

http://overunity.com/16203/inductive-kickback/

 Anyone who takes the time to read it can clearly see I started it to help him understand about inductive kickback.  When he saw he was wrong then he started using profanity against everyone in that thread.  Flaming others is against forum rules.  However I did not have to follow through on my threat to attempt to get him banned as several more senior members notified admin of his poor behavior.  As a consequence he was NOT banned as he keeps insisting.  He was put on moderated status.  This means his posts had to be approved before they would be posted on the forum.

He then went to Energetic Forum and told a bunch of lies there about several of us.  He is his own worst enemy.  He refuses to learn and when shown he is wrong he resorts to name calling and profanity.  I will not waste anymore time on this subject.  I just felt the need to set the record straight for any newcomers that might read his ridiculous claims.

Carroll

You lasted for over 400 comments so far.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 06, 2017, 08:51:26 PM
I've been playing with 3 bifilar pancake coils, and with some result. But Im not shure how to interpret this result.
I dont know how to convert the time it takes to charge the capacitors, into a expression of power.

here is some data: 4x 6.3uF capacitors, charged to 900Vdc from 0V in 3 seconds. the question rises, how are the capacitors connected...
at one side, they are all connected together (parallel). But on the otherside, they are paired, and connected to diodes. 2 form the negative, and 2 form the positive.

Anyone got the answer?

You simply need to convert to "Joules". The Joule is one "watt second".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Grumage on April 06, 2017, 09:18:17 PM
Thanks for posting that clear schematic.

ETA: When you disconnected your power supply in that video there was quite a nice spark there. What do you think caused that spark?

Dear Mr. Koala.

You're welcome.

That PSU has literally been " to Hell and back " used in many environments, mainly damp ones, the Crock clips are rather rusty IMO it was just some Iron oxide burning off.

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 06, 2017, 09:21:36 PM
I think, Nelson Rocha's circuit (http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=2520.0) would deserve it's own thread - if anything else than because it doesn't contain pancake coil (according to its diagram (http://i.ytimg.com/vi/TjK6OlYO9Aw/hqdefault.jpg) this coil even isn't bifilar) and it's the only selfrunner (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY3Mr2pAErw) in the wild and also author communicating at overunity.com forum in this moment (i.e. of much higher importance than some abstract discussion and frog&mice battles about interpretation of well understood phenomena). For me it looks like Joule Thief circuit with ferroresonance overunity (http://overunity.com/15124/simplest-theory-of-overunity-devices-possible).
when i

Zephir , please don't put words that i did not say . I never say that circuit is a self running . I just say that circuit is interesting, to people that search the OU theme, and could be made easily  because is cheap to be made and could be observed interesting points , and that is one of the circuits that i share in this same forum when i'm working in opensource years ago nothing more .

That is only to show to some that sometimes ask me by my claims and about hi not opensource my work  that in other times if they want validate something they could easily do that, but  years ago .

Hope i being clear about that subject and my position , and i don't need any thread about me or any of my circuit's .
I share in pm even with you , because i don't need to publicity what i do or what i design in this moment , but people are free to try if want .

cheers

Nelson Rocha
 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 06, 2017, 11:11:50 PM
OK - if it's not self-running, which this circuit is supposed to be interesting with?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 06, 2017, 11:33:38 PM
OK - if it's not self-running, which this circuit is supposed to be interesting with?

Hi Zephir ,

I already  explain to you in PM what you could observe on that circuit, no is not a self runner , is only one of the circuits , that you could see interesting behaviors, if you don't want replicate them you could see the videos associated to them , Grumage share their own replication , but if you search , you will find other replications by other users even by myself  .
 I said that circuit should be used to study some interesting effects .
Like other circuits i made , i use them to study , and of course you or anyone are free to replicate them and see by yourself , and validate them because when i share them was in opensource , and in that way he still remain in same way .
The good new is that you don't need to spend much money to replicate them , but you are free to decide that .

cheers


Nelson Rocha   
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 06, 2017, 11:44:38 PM
You simply need to convert to "Joules". The Joule is one "watt second".
yes, the joules are easy to calculate. i guess its all parallel,  so about  10 joules in 3 seconds.

but Im interested in the power that puts the charge in the caps. its not linear,  at first there is a sudden great rise of voltage,  and then when it reaches its maximum voltage,  the voltage rise slows down.
so the current seems large at the start of charging,  when the voltage is still low.

so to say 10 joule in 3 seconds is 3.3 Watts would be wrong.
I wonder what power could be used. if i would put a load on the capacitro,  and the voltage would drop to 12 volts,  howmuch current would it be able to provide.

for me its a though question. also,  because its part of a resonant system, that needs to keep resonating.
 if any one could shed a light.

@ Grumage,  tnx for posting that schematic 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 06, 2017, 11:47:12 PM
Quote
I said that circuit should be used to study some interesting effects.

Which ones, for example? For me everything about electricity is interesting - ("magnets, how they do work? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMFPe-DwULM)")
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 07, 2017, 12:36:57 AM
but Im interested in the power that puts the charge in the caps. its not linear,  at first there is a sudden great rise of voltage,  and then when it reaches its maximum voltage,  the voltage rise slows down.
so the current seems large at the start of charging,  when the voltage is still low.

Yes Evostars, the bogeyman is going to speak to you again.  I am going to make good sense, so the question for you is are you going to have enough character to respond to me?  Am I allowed to eat at the same lunch counter as you?

The power going into the capacitor is the product of the voltage times the current.  Both are functions of time.

p(t) = i(t) * v(t).

And of course the energy is the summation of the power over the charging cycle.  We can also say that the energy is the integral of the current times the voltage with respect to time from the start to the end of the cycle.

Let's go back to p(t) = i(t) * v(t).

We are charging a capacitor, and we know that the voltage on a capacitor v = q/C.

And we also know that q(t) is the integral of i(t) with respect to time.  So we can do some substitutions:

p(t) = i(t) * [integral i(t)dt/C]

And there you go.  If you have a DSO you can record the current waveform and the capacitor voltage waveform and have the DSO do the multiplication for you.

Alternatively you can record the current waveform only and then put the file on a USB drive.   Then you can load the current waveform into a spreadsheet and do a multiply-accumulate function and get your answer like that.  This is the more "profound" way to do this because as long as you know the current waveform and the capacitance you have enough information to get your answer.  It's like Spice running through your veins.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 07, 2017, 01:51:25 AM
@evostars,

Discharging a capacitor is like decanting water from a five gallon jug; Slow starting, followed by a strong gush  at .67, tapering off to a slow flow: Charging exactly the reverse, max charge rate at .33 capacity:
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 07, 2017, 01:56:46 AM
No, the charge rate shown in your graph is the slope of the line. The maximum charge rate (steepest slope) is at zero capacity and slows down from there. The maximum discharge rate is at full capacity.

Perhaps you should review your calculus.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 07, 2017, 01:59:14 AM
Milehigh and synchro one,
thank you for your input on the capacitor!
No DCO for me,  but I think i might be able to measure it with a larger capacitance, needing more time to charge. so i can make a graph.

and that picture of the discharge really makes sense.

thanks for the spice

and yes Tinselkoala,  its all about the steepness of the line, but I need some voltage change to get current. So 0.67 seems perfect
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 07, 2017, 02:06:28 AM
The maximum current into the capacitor will occur when it is at zero charge. The maximum current out of your capacitor will occur when it is at full charge. This is what the graph is showing you.

Say you are using 10 volts from a voltage-regulated supply. You first short the capacitor to assure that it is fully discharged, then you apply your ten volts. The current will be at its maximum value as soon as you apply the voltage and will taper off according to the curve until the voltage on the capacitor is ten volts. Actually it will asymptote to ten volts. Discharge is the reverse: Apply a resistor across the charged capacitor and look at the current through the resistor. It will be at its maximum value as soon as you make contact and will taper off from there as the capacitor "drains" down to zero voltage.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 07, 2017, 09:13:04 AM
The maximum current into the capacitor will occur when it is at zero charge. The maximum current out of your capacitor will occur when it is at full charge. This is what the graph is showing you.

Say you are using 10 volts from a voltage-regulated supply. You first short the capacitor to assure that it is fully discharged, then you apply your ten volts. The current will be at its maximum value as soon as you apply the voltage and will taper off according to the curve until the voltage on the capacitor is ten volts. Actually it will asymptote to ten volts. Discharge is the reverse: Apply a resistor across the charged capacitor and look at the current through the resistor. It will be at its maximum value as soon as you make contact and will taper off from there as the capacitor "drains" down to zero voltage.

You're right, unless the capacitor is charging and discharging through a resistor. I used those figures because the chart I posted includes them. I used .67 and .33 wrongly instead of .63 and .37. My comparison to the jug includes the neck as a resistor, while an open bucket would be better for yours. Thanks for helping clear that up.

"As with the previous RC charging circuit, in a RC Discharging Circuit, the time constant ( τ ) is still equal to the value of 63%. Then for a RC discharging circuit that is initially fully charged, the voltage across the capacitor after one time constant, 1T, has dropped to 63% of its initial value which is 1 – 0.63 = 0.37 or 37% of its final value.

So now this is given as the time taken for the capacitor to discharge down to within 37% of its fully discharged value which will be zero volts (fully discharged), and in our curve this is given as 0.37Vc.

As the capacitor discharges, it loses its charge at a declining rate. At the start of discharge the initial conditions of the circuit, are t = 0, i = 0 and q = Q. The voltage across the capacitors plates is equal to the supply voltage and Vc = Vs. As the voltage across the plates is at its highest value maximum discharge current flows around the circuit".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 07, 2017, 10:48:04 AM
No, I am right even if the charge-discharge is through a resistor. Read your quoted passage again, and look at your graph again. In the charging case, the slope of the graph is steepest right where it takes off from zero and becomes progressively flatter until the charging voltage is asymptotically reached. In the discharging case the slope of the graph is steepest right when discharging commences and becomes progressively flatter until zero voltage is again asymptotically reached. The slopes of the lines indicates the time rate of charge/discharge, and the sign of the slopes indicates charging (positive slope, going up from left to right) or discharging (negative slope, going down from left to right). Zero slope (asymptotically horizontal line) means that "steady state" has been reached, either zero or fully charged to the charging voltage. The lines represent charge vs. time and the slopes of the lines represent d(charge)/dt. That is, the change in charge over the change in time. Where the slope of the line is steepest, you have the greatest change in charge during the smallest time, that is, the fastest charging rate. Adding more resistance stretches the graph horizontally (takes more time for a given amount of charge or discharge) but does not change the qualitative slopes; the fastest rates (corresponding to the greatest currents) will still be at the beginnings of the charge or discharge. This is elementary differential calculus.

"As the capacitor discharges, it loses its charge at a declining rate. At the start of discharge the initial conditions of the circuit, are t = 0, i = 0 and q = Q. The voltage across the capacitors plates is equal to the supply voltage and Vc = Vs. As the voltage across the plates is at its highest value maximum discharge current flows around the circuit".


 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 07, 2017, 02:55:18 PM
No, I am right even if the charge-discharge is through a resistor. Read your quoted passage again, and look at your graph again. In the charging case, the slope of the graph is steepest right where it takes off from zero and becomes progressively flatter until the charging voltage is asymptotically reached. In the discharging case the slope of the graph is steepest right when discharging commences and becomes progressively flatter until zero voltage is again asymptotically reached. The slopes of the lines indicates the time rate of charge/discharge, and the sign of the slopes indicates charging (positive slope, going up from left to right) or discharging (negative slope, going down from left to right). Zero slope (asymptotically horizontal line) means that "steady state" has been reached, either zero or fully charged to the charging voltage. The lines represent charge vs. time and the slopes of the lines represent d(charge)/dt. That is, the change in charge over the change in time. Where the slope of the line is steepest, you have the greatest change in charge during the smallest time, that is, the fastest charging rate. Adding more resistance stretches the graph horizontally (takes more time for a given amount of charge or discharge) but does not change the qualitative slopes; the fastest rates (corresponding to the greatest currents) will still be at the beginnings of the charge or discharge. This is elementary differential calculus.

"As the capacitor discharges, it loses its charge at a declining rate. At the start of discharge the initial conditions of the circuit, are t = 0, i = 0 and q = Q. The voltage across the capacitors plates is equal to the supply voltage and Vc = Vs. As the voltage across the plates is at its highest value maximum discharge current flows around the circuit".


 

The discharge curve shows 6 units of charge dissipating over 1 unit of time down to .37. Then it shows 4 units of charge dissapating over 3 units of time.

Here's what I said:

"Discharging a capacitor is like decanting water from a five gallon jug; Slow starting, followed by a strong gush, (then*) at .67, tapering off to a slow flow: Charging exactly the reverse, max charge rate at .33 capacity". That places the maximum discharge at 4 units of dissipation over 1/2 unit of time. Take another look at the graph "Mister Differential Calculus".

*Addition to original.

What I'm implying is that the first 1/3 of the capacitor charge spills most forcefully from the jug; This is with a resistor. Shorting the capacitor results in an explosion.

Naturally, the charge curve is the inverse; The first 2/3 of the charge the most rapid then the remaining 1/3 equally time consuming as the last 1/3 of the discharge lag.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 07, 2017, 04:18:29 PM
No, THIS is what you said:

@evostars,

Discharging a capacitor is like decanting water from a five gallon jug; Slow starting, followed by a strong gush  at .67, tapering off to a slow flow: Charging exactly the reverse, max charge rate at .33 capacity:

And you presented a graph that clearly shows 70 percent of charge leaving the capacitor in the FIRST RC time constant, a little under 20 percent of the charge leaving in the SECOND time constant, a fraction of 10 percent leaving in the THIRD time constant and the rest ( practically ) leaving in the FOURTH time constant and the tiny portion of the remainder leaving in the FIFTH time constant. After five time constants it is considered to have attained the Steady State (but in fact asymptotes to it.) The maximum DISCHARGE RATE occurs immediately after making the discharge connection, as your quoted passage says and as your graph shows, and the maximum CHARGE RATE occurs immediately after connecting the power source to the capacitor. The graph is right and continues to be right. Your verbal description was wrong and continues to be wrong. 

THE SLOPE OF THE LINE INDICATES THE TIME RATE OF CHANGE OF THE LINE. THE RATE OF CHANGE (rate of charge or discharge) IS MAXIMUM WHERE THE SLOPE IS STEEPEST. IF THE SLOPE IS POSITIVE, going up from left to right, THE CAPACITOR IS CHARGING, AND IF THE SLOPE IS NEGATIVE, going down from left to right, THE CAPACITOR IS DISCHARGING. When the slope is zero (horizontal line) the "steady state" is reached.

And I can see that you either never took Differential Calculus in school, or you flunked miserably. Give it up AB, you are simply wrong. YET AGAIN.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 07, 2017, 04:21:06 PM
The discharge curve shows 6 units of charge dissipating over 1 unit of time down to .37. Then it shows 4 units of charge dissapating over 3 units of time.

Here's what I said:

"Discharging a capacitor is like decanting water from a five gallon jug; Slow starting, followed by a strong gush, (then*) at .67, tapering off to a slow flow: Charging exactly the reverse, max charge rate at .33 capacity". That places the maximum discharge at 4 units of dissipation over 1/2 unit of time. Take another look at the graph "Mister Differential Calculus".

*Addition to original.

What I'm implying is that the first 1/3 of the capacitor charge spills most forcefully from the jug; This is with a resistor. Shorting the capacitor results in an explosion.

Naturally, the charge curve is the inverse; The first 2/3 of the charge the most rapid then the remaining 1/3 equally time consuming as the last 1/3 of the discharge lag.

Now you are trying to "spin" what you said and claimed at first. You have been confusing RATE with QUANTITY, apparently.

"What you are implying" you are now stating nearly correctly. The first 1/3 of the capacitor charge or discharge is happening at a FASTER RATE than the remaining charge or discharge. And the FASTEST rate, corresponding to the highest current, occurs during the first time constant immediately after making the connection.

Again, this is what you said at first:
Quote
Discharging a capacitor is like decanting water from a five gallon jug; Slow starting, followed by a strong gush  at .67, tapering off to a slow flow: Charging exactly the reverse, max charge rate at .33 capacity:

And the parts I have emphasized in your original statement are wrong.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 07, 2017, 04:56:53 PM
Yes Evostars, the bogeyman is going to speak to you again.  I am going to make good sense, so the question for you is are you going to have enough character to respond to me?  Am I allowed to eat at the same lunch counter as you?

The power going into the capacitor is the product of the voltage times the current.  Both are functions of time.

p(t) = i(t) * v(t).

And of course the energy is the summation of the power over the charging cycle.  We can also say that the energy is the integral of the current times the voltage with respect to time from the start to the end of the cycle.

Let's go back to p(t) = i(t) * v(t).

We are charging a capacitor, and we know that the voltage on a capacitor v = q/C.

And we also know that q(t) is the integral of i(t) with respect to time.  So we can do some substitutions:

p(t) = i(t) * [integral i(t)dt/C]

And there you go.  If you have a DSO you can record the current waveform and the capacitor voltage waveform and have the DSO do the multiplication for you.

Alternatively you can record the current waveform only and then put the file on a USB drive.   Then you can load the current waveform into a spreadsheet and do a multiply-accumulate function and get your answer like that.  This is the more "profound" way to do this because as long as you know the current waveform and the capacitance you have enough information to get your answer.  It's like Spice running through your veins.

MileHigh

Thanks by explanation . :)

cheers
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 07, 2017, 05:11:29 PM
Now you are trying to "spin" what you said and claimed at first. You have been confusing RATE with QUANTITY, apparently.

"What you are implying" you are now stating nearly correctly. The first 1/3 of the capacitor charge or discharge is happening at a FASTER RATE than the remaining charge or discharge. And the FASTEST rate, corresponding to the highest current, occurs during the first time constant immediately after making the connection.

Again, this is what you said at first:
And the parts I have emphasized in your original statement are wrong.

Here's what you had to say:

"No, I am right even if the charge-discharge is through a resistor"!

You're wrong!

This is right:

"The bigger the value of RC the slower the rate at which the capacitor discharges".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 07, 2017, 06:43:33 PM
Try and get a grip, AB.

You said,
Quote
You're right, unless the capacitor is charging and discharging through a resistor.

--referring back to my statement that the maximum charge rate happens when the cap is first connected to the power source, and the maximum discharge rate is when the cap is first connected to the discharge circuit. Whether it be a resistor or the negligible resistor formed by a straight bit of wire.

And I said, I'm right even when the capacitor is charging and discharging through a resistor. Yes, charging and discharging through a resistor will be slower overall-- that is what is meant by "stretching the graph horizontally". But the qualitative shape of the charge-discharge curve remains the same: It will still have the greatest slope, positive or negative, at the very beginning of the charging or discharging, meaning that the fastest RATE of charge/discharge is at those points, meaning that the greatest CURRENT occurs at those points. Anyone who can interpret a graph will tell you the same thing.

Do you actually understand what the word RATE means? It means quantity per time. Miles per hour, charge per RC period, coulombs per second, etc. These are all RATES, or to use the calculus term, time rate of change. The most quantity of charge per the least amount of time happens at the very beginning of the charge or discharge curve. The greatest currents occur at these points, NOT one third or two thirds down the graph. As your quoted passage and your graph CLEARLY STATE AND SHOW.

What exactly is your problem here? You made a statement that is clearly wrong, you posted information from other sources that clearly demonstrate that you are wrong, I have tried over and over to explain it to you but you persist in your error!  No wonder nobody bothers to respond to you at EF any more.


Quote
This is right:

"The bigger the value of RC the slower the rate at which the capacitor discharges".

Yes, that is right, but that is not what we have been talking about. Your claim was that the MAXIMUM RATE happens 1/3 or 2/3 down the graph, which is wrong, no matter what resistance is used.

Quote
Discharging a capacitor is like decanting water from a five gallon jug; Slow starting, followed by a strong gush  at .67, tapering off to a slow flow: Charging exactly the reverse, max charge rate at .33 capacity:

Those are your words, clearly stating your claim, and that claim is wrong.


 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 07, 2017, 06:51:39 PM
Tinselkola,

There you go again with your "Freddy the Freeloader" cigarbut stuck on a toothpick routine.

My point in your over quoted statement by me was merely to describe how the charge and discharge curve are equal and opposite. Nothing more!

I choose to compare the capacitor discharge to a jug of wáter to phase into a civil discussion of the RC formula, which is a necessary corolary. The diameter of the bottle neck analogous to the level of resistance.

I caught you using ambiguous language too. Everyone knows zero resistance accross the capacitor electrodes would result in a "Pulse", not a slope. This would appear as a near vertical line on the graph.

I can start to mistreat you as though you were a moron, even though I know you know better. I can't argue with anything you've had to say up till now. All I can assure you of, is that I have nothing to learn from you about this subject.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: starcruiser on April 07, 2017, 08:02:41 PM
Time for remedial Electronics guys?

try this for a refresher
http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/rc/rc_1.html (http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/rc/rc_1.html)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 07, 2017, 08:08:07 PM
 
Quote
Everyone knows zero resistance accross the capacitor electrodes would result in a "Pulse", not a slope. This would appear as a vertical line on the graph.

Wrong again! All real wires have resistance and ALL REAL CAPACITORS do too. Look up "ESR" wrt capacitors. For this claim of yours to be true you would have to have a capacitor with zero resistance and a connection with zero resistance, both impossible in reality, and the current on charge and discharge would be _infinite_, taking no time, which is what a vertical line means. Infinite slope! A change in charge over +no change in time+ !!!! Ridiculous on the face of it, as everyone _actually_ knows.
 
Good luck with that.

Anyone with a scope and the wit to use it can prove you wrong in fifteen minutes.

You want to keep moving goalposts and constructing your strawman arguments instead of admitting that you were wrong, go ahead. You'll wind up here just like you wound up at EF: nobody pays attention to you since they all know that you are full of yourself, you misrepresent and misunderstand and prevaricate, and you will never admit that you are wrong.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 07, 2017, 08:11:48 PM
Time for remedial Electronics guys?

try this for a refresher
http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/rc/rc_1.html (http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/rc/rc_1.html)

Perhaps you would like to try to explain to Synchro just where the maximum charge RATE and the maximum discharge RATE are shown on that graph.

Do you believe this very clear and unambiguous statement that he made is correct, or not?
Quote
   Discharging a capacitor is like decanting water from a five gallon jug; Slow starting, followed by a strong gush  at .67, tapering off to a slow flow: Charging exactly the reverse, max charge rate at .33 capacity:
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 07, 2017, 08:26:29 PM
Perhaps you would like to try to explain to Synchro just where the maximum charge RATE and the maximum discharge RATE are shown on that graph.

Do you believe this very clear and unambiguous statement that he made is correct, or not?

Why and the hell do you keep reposting that comment when I made it clear that it was an attempt by me to compare the charge and discharge curves as equal and opposite and nothing more?

You're a compulsive psychopath and need help.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 07, 2017, 08:37:56 PM
SO when you say, "the max charge rate is at .33 capacity" you didn't actually _mean_ that the maximum charge rate is at .33 capacity? Or when you say "slow starting followed by a gush at .67" you didn't actually _mean_ slow starting or that there is a gush at .67?

I see. Well, you will have to excuse me for misunderstanding then, since I can only go by what you SAY, not what you claim to have meant.

(insert facepalm character here)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 07, 2017, 08:43:06 PM
SO when you say, "the max charge rate is at .33 capacity" you didn't actually _mean_ that the maximum charge rate is at .33 capacity? Or when you say "slow starting followed by a gush at .67" you didn't actually _mean_ slow starting or that there is a gush at .67?

I see. Well, you will have to excuse me for misunderstanding then, since I can only go by what you SAY, not what you claim to have meant.

(insert facepalm character here)

You're stinking drunk and a slob!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 07, 2017, 08:50:31 PM
You're stinking drunk and a slob!

Preserved for posterity.

And, by the way... wrong again, twice over! 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 07, 2017, 08:52:49 PM
Preserved for posterity.

And, by the way... wrong again, twice over!

Barf, blubber puss sucking shyster schwienehunt!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 07, 2017, 09:16:21 PM
Barf, blubber puss sucking scheiskopf swienehunt!

Your German spelling needs a little work.

Why don't you try holding your breath until you turn blue, and jumping up and down and stomping your feet? Maybe that will make your false claims go away where nobody can see them.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 07, 2017, 09:21:50 PM
Your German spelling needs a little work.

Why don't you try holding your breath until you turn blue, and jumping up and down and stomping your feet? Maybe that will make your false claims go away where nobody can see them.

Booze hound!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 07, 2017, 09:29:09 PM
Booze hound!

Better watch out, the Drop Bear might come and getcha!

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 07, 2017, 09:45:14 PM
yeesh that bear gives me the creeps....

In the meantime perhaps a discussion of  these on topic experiments ?


REPOST
skycollection 1

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency

« Reply #415 on: April 06, 2017, 06:28:15 PM »


Quote
 I have many years sutying the pancake coils and this is my last video about my "multifilar pancake coil", this consist in six groups of pancake coils, one group consist in six pancake coils connected in series, all the groups are isolated from each other and all the pancake coils are in parallel in the same place (in a PBC PIPE) in my experiment i am using my circuit JL94 with two transistors like the drawing diagram that i am presenting in my video, when i move a magnet in the centre the circuit and the coils "enters in self oscillation" and all the groups "induces" the current to the led bulbs with great intensity, i have connected to the circuit only one group of pancake coils, the other groups are "pickup coils".
this is the experiment...: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ln7AEpxMeY
Saludos from mexico, Jorge Rebolledo

see also
REPOST
Grum's  replication of Nelsons schematic below [more replications to come]
https://youtu.be/m6lmd0HKxOw

the transistor schems below [posted by Tinsel] are for explaining the seeming "selfrunning" when the gate is removed in Grum's vid.

also to note the Neon bulb Vid will hopefully be discussed here too, as well as the power required to actually light this 80V NE2 neon bulb

Note ...there may be a few other ON TOPIC Vids added to this thread as time goes by


respectfully
Chet K

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 08, 2017, 12:39:28 AM
Neons like the typical NE-2 or NE-2a require very little current to light up quite well, once the "striking" voltage is reached. Typical currents are 400-800 microamps. And the voltage to sustain the glow drops a bit once the striking voltage is reached. So a "90" volt neon will strike at 90 volts and can stay lit as low as 60 volts, while needing only, say, 500 microamps of current. (But since the resistance of the plasma is very low, they can draw as much current as you will allow them to, with sometimes disastrous results, so current-limiting resistors are typically used in "ordinary" applications. )
So... figure for example 75 V x 500 uA = about 38 milliwatts of power or even less for a good healthy glow. This is not much more power than a typical high-brightness 5mm LED needs. Or, looking at the minimums, 60 V x 400 uA = 24 milliwatts. Whereas a blue LED at 3.3 Vx 10 mA = 33 mW.  So you can get a NE-2 to light up with ridiculously low amounts of average power especially if you pulse it with very short pulses.

Or I can, anyway.    ;)

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 01:33:57 AM
Nice demos guys but you should focus to the problem, which is overunity from bifilar pancake coils. This it the only thing which matters here. You should think on it every time, you're posting something here, or you'll lose drive and later even motivation to continue and you'll become a resigned pathoskeptic like TinselKoala. Like it or not, the inventive mind requires focus to problem and a discipline. If you look at the biography of all great inventors, you'll realize, they were often quite average people in many aspects - but they were always sharply focused and dedicated to particular problem, which they solved. The mindless senile twaddling and tinkering fancy demos from JouleThief circuits is very comfortable and maybe entertaining life style - but it will not move us forward: even if you would make thousands of such an "experiments" during whole your productive life, you'll not become an overunity expert anyway.

I can see a connection point in NelsonRocha circuit and Jorge Rebolledo's layered pancake coils: these devices both generate the variable magnetic fields of the opposite polarity against each other like so-called bucking anti-Lenz coils. Such a fields produce a scalar waves in my theory, i.e. the compression waves of vacuum, which temporarily change the speed of EM wave propagation and create anapole condition (http://overunity.com/17186/the-bifilar-pancake-coil-at-its-resonant-frequency/msg503010) for overunity. Instead of ferromagnet you can use the evanescent mode of EM wave propagation along wire as an active environment. The layers of pancake coils are better than single coil, but you should ensure, that the current will always flow in alternate direction across neighboring wires, which requires precious construction of coils.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 08, 2017, 01:38:51 AM
Neons like the typical NE-2 or NE-2a require very little current to light up quite well, once the "striking" voltage is reached. Typical currents are 400-800 microamps. And the voltage to sustain the glow drops a bit once the striking voltage is reached. So a "90" volt neon will strike at 90 volts and can stay lit as low as 60 volts, while needing only, say, 500 microamps of current. (But since the resistance of the plasma is very low, they can draw as much current as you will allow them to, with sometimes disastrous results, so current-limiting resistors are typically used in "ordinary" applications. )
So... figure for example 75 V x 500 uA = about 38 milliwatts of power or even less for a good healthy glow. This is not much more power than a typical high-brightness 5mm LED needs. Or, looking at the minimums, 60 V x 400 uA = 24 milliwatts. Whereas a blue LED at 3.3 Vx 10 mA = 33 mW.  So you can get a NE-2 to light up with ridiculously low amounts of average power especially if you pulse it with very short pulses.

Or I can, anyway.    ;)

Seems , are improving the interest in NE-2   :) i left a very nice book to people love "play" with them https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByZY5hj0h0hXaGZZUGRVYklkM0U and another https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByZY5hj0h0hXS3Npazk2blBzMWc

Thanks for share :)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 08, 2017, 02:36:32 AM
Zephir
MANY  persons here played with setups like you posted above for YEARS ,and no one EVER found anything anomalous
well honestly I only spoke with about twenty or so persons who share here and elsewhere open source .
probably thousands of hours collectively spent there and even with Pancake coils

have you done work there which could help guide  experimenters towards a true anomaly ?

maybe a build you can point to ??

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 02:49:22 AM
Quote
MANY  persons here played with setups like you posted above for YEARS, and no one EVER found anything anomalous

This is because the people who found it immediately leaved this forum (Akula) or placed embargo to every just a bit useful information about it (NelsonRocha). So you can get a perception, which you just presented here. But if you would construct the Joule Thief and Tesla coils with bifilar coils like TinselKoala is doing, then you never will find something interesting, because you'll utilize this component just in applications, in which it behaves like normal coil and in which its anomalous behavior cannot manifest itself.

If you want to find an overunity for inductive hob for example, you shouldn't use and wire it as a hob, because the hob is supposed to consume energy, not to produce it - got it? You should therefore know, where to look for it - and it requires to have strategy and some at least rudimentary theory of overunity prepared. The plain blind tinkering can get successful only by pure rare accident - and all people who succeed with it have no motivation to share information with others anymore. I can point to many builds (for example Infinity SAV Team (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq_qGHzYorAsR4sYi3m50sA/videos)  already collected many working findings) - but the viable route for collective overunity development leads through public sharing and improving theory, not experiments. We already have YouTube full of working overunity devices - but because we don't have their theory, we cannot replicate them.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 08, 2017, 03:10:21 AM
Infinity SAV team? You are really hilarious. You might as well cite Veproject for your "overunity" reference.

Meanwhile:

Tesla Bifilar Pancake Joule Thief, lighting up 24 LEDs in a 12-series, 2-parallel array, using a PNP transistor (BC556B) and one AAA battery.
(That is 12 LEDs in series, and this in parallel with another 12 LEDs in series.)

(This is my JT testbed, the toroid coil at bottom left is not connected for this demonstration.)

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 03:14:09 AM
The principal test bed for overunity device is the scalar bubble: the planar capacitor or pair of (electro)magnets in opposite direction of magnetic poles. The bifilar coil is using air core, so its effect are weaker, but its magnetic fields are colliding along larger area. The scalar bubble exhibits increased level of electrostatic noise, which can be detected as a voltage with pin diode (small surface area of PN junction prohibits averaging this noise).
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 03:17:25 AM
Quote
This is my JT testbed, the toroid coil at bottom left is not connected for this demonstration

It isn't, which becomes evident, once you attempt to answer the question: "And what this bed is testing?".

The testbed is always supposed to test some theory of function. The scientific method is always based on falsification of theory or at least model.
The blind random tinkering is not falsification of theory, i.e. it is not scientific approach.

What you demonstrated above as a testbed is a trivial Joule Thief oscillator circuit, just with pancake bifilar coil instead of normal toroid one used for positive feedback (every oscillator requires some positive feedback loop). The Joule Thief circuit (Armstrong oscillator) utilizes the transformer effect of inductor pair for this purpose, which bifilar coil provides too - but this effect is very classical one - so it doesn't lead into overunity. Once you utilize the pair of wires as an transformer, it will work like the transformer in similar way, like when you use an induction hob as an induction hob. No matter if you arrange the pair of wires into form of bifilar, solenoid or toroid or caduceus or Rodin coil or whatever else coil - the geometry is not important, the principle of function is what matters here. The (utilization of) very classical principle (of transformer) provides very classical results: nothing less, nothing more.

Your testbed is therefore testing the ability of bifilar coil to serve as a transformer for positive loop in Armstrong oscillator circuit. This is nice, but nothing spectacular, miraculous the less. Even if you would achieve to use an overunity transformer in JouleThief circuit, it wouldn't become a self-running just because of it, because the secondary winding is used only for driving base current of transistor. The transistor doesn't care, if you bring larger or smaller current into base, once the condition for positive feedback loop gets fulfilled. If you increase the current of base electrode, you'll just have higher amount of electricity wasted.

So if you want to demonstrate anomaly with your coil, you shouldn't utilize it as a boring classical transformer - you should give it chance to demonstrate more/something else.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 08, 2017, 03:19:57 AM
Zephir
(snip)
have you done work there which could help guide  experimenters towards a true anomaly ?
(snip)

He has been asked many times to produce evidence of a build or experiment of his own and he always dodges the question, just as he has done now.
So I have concluded that he has not done and cannot do what you are asking. Am I wrong? Could be... let's see the proof. Linking to Infinity SAV Team as "evidence"?  I don't think so. They violate Conservation of Miracles.    ;)

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 08, 2017, 03:34:07 AM
It isn't, which becomes evident, once you attempt to answer the question: "And what this bed is testing?".

The testbed is always supposed to test some theory of function. The scientific method is always based on falsification of theory.
The blind random tinkering is not falsification of theory, i.e. not scientific approach.

This bed is testing whether or not a TBF coil will work in the most basic rudimentary JT circuit with PNP transistor and many LEDs in series. The hypothesis under test is this: If I connect a low-inductance TBF pancake coil in a standard PNP JT circuit, it will work just about as well as an ordinary solenoidal or toroidal coil. The test fails to reject this hypothesis.

I pointed out that the toroid is not connected to avoid confusion, since I've used this testbed to test many different coils, transistors and loads, and one cannot see clearly in the photo that it is not connected. I imagine that there will be one or two people reading this that could be surprised and even interested that a TBF pancake coil will work in this circuit.

Don't try to teach an old boy how to suck eggs, credulous Zephir. If you think this is "blind random tinkering" ... let's see some work of your own that is any different.  I've lost count of how many times you have dodged this challenge.
 

Have you tried jumping off a building and flapping your arms to see if you can fly yet? I'll bet you haven't.

And let's see some real proof that a "scalar bubble" exists, and that the effect the circuit you posted _might_ demonstrate is caused by some such entity and not by something else already known to conventional physics.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 08, 2017, 03:42:53 AM
Infinity SAV Team? You are really hilarious. You might as well cite Veproject for your "overunity" reference.

They did not pass my quality control system either.  lol

Do you want to be a distributor?

Quote
Distributor agrees to the day of submitting the Fossil Fuel Free Generator to pay a deposit amount of 100,000 US dollars.

In the musings of my mind there is a kind of Charlie's Angels team of svelte yet shapely women that fight for truth and justice and the American Way.  There are five of these powerful women and they call themselves Luck Force Five.  Think of Russ Meyer making movies of their exploits.

You can just imagine this team of beautiful intelligent women "busting" Infinity SAV Team - Luck Force Five vs. Infinity SAV Team.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 08, 2017, 05:15:40 AM
If we measure a pancake coil for inductance, would that necessarily be the value calculated with measured capacitance of the bifi windings, give the actual value of the resonant freq? Or would it be a wider band than a single layer bifi rod coil?

Like if we measured the inductance of just a couple turns on the inner dia vs measuring the inductance of a couple outer turns, would that measurement be the same?

Then if we calculated those measurements with measured capacitance, would we find the same resonant freq value? 

Was just thinking if maybe the highest resonant peak may have a kinda wider bandwidth than say a single layer cylinder bifi coil which should have a fairly sharper peak.

Had bought some RS flat speaker cable some time back when a RS store closed, and cheap, with some ideas to fiddle with in this area. Can split the wire pair down the middle to make the bifi pair. Was thinking of the flat wire would have more capacitance vs round wire.

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 08, 2017, 08:59:36 AM
If we measure a pancake coil for inductance, would that necessarily be the value calculated with measured capacitance of the bifi windings, give the actual value of the resonant freq? Or would it be a wider band than a single layer bifi rod coil?

Like if we measured the inductance of just a couple turns on the inner dia vs measuring the inductance of a couple outer turns, would that measurement be the same?

Then if we calculated those measurements with measured capacitance, would we find the same resonant freq value? 

Was just thinking if maybe the highest resonant peak may have a kinda wider bandwidth than say a single layer cylinder bifi coil which should have a fairly sharper peak.

Had bought some RS flat speaker cable some time back when a RS store closed, and cheap, with some ideas to fiddle with in this area. Can split the wire pair down the middle to make the bifi pair. Was thinking of the flat wire would have more capacitance vs round wire.

Mags
flat speaker wire. Sounds excellent! it will give bigger capacity, but its also important how close the bifilar windings  wires are. If the coating isnt to thick...

also,  when using multiple bifilar pancake coils on top of eachother,  the capacitance changes. the dielectric fields start interacting with eachother.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 08, 2017, 10:11:16 AM
Sorry for off topic [@ Magluvin nice moderator suit ]

but Zephir posted this and I would like to know if we have this in a topic here?
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq_qGHzYorAsR4sYi3m50sA/videos
and has anybody here called these guys or visited them yet and shared ??

also on topic question to Zephir on this
quote
So if you want to demonstrate anomaly with your coil, you shouldn't utilize it as a boring classical transformer - you should give it chance to demonstrate more/something else.
end quote

@ Zephir
How to do this [ More/]something else
??
thx

Chet

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 08, 2017, 11:01:57 AM
yeesh that bear gives me the creeps....

In the meantime perhaps a discussion of  these on topic experiments ?


Grum's  replication of Nelsons schematic below [more replications to come]
https://youtu.be/m6lmd0HKxOw

the transistor schems below [posted by Tinsel] are for explaining the seeming "selfrunning" when the gate is removed in Grum's vid.

also to note the Neon bulb Vid will hopefully be discussed here too, as well as the power required to actually light this 80V NE2 neon bulb

Note ...there may be a few other ON TOPIC Vids added to this thread as time goes by


respectfully
Chet K

For people interested some replications of the mini exciter. Mini exciter was not designed to light Neon bulbs .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ8TX0bPCL8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY3Mr2pAErw

Cheers

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 11:31:07 AM
Quote
but Zephir posted this and I would like to know if we have this in a topic here? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq_qGHzYorAsR4sYi3m50sA/videos and has anybody here called these guys or visited them yet and shared?

The pathoskeptic character of this forum is just in the point, that the only company which provides overunity devices at commercial basis gets systematically ridiculed in this forum, whereas its active members are flooding forum with their useless demonstrations of classical physics. If you would read Nelson Rocha's posts, you could also read that he "sold his technology to South Korean company" - so we can just connect the dots and we can ask, which company it actually was, if the Infinity SAV Team resides at Soul?

Quote
Distributor agrees to the day of submitting the Fossil Fuel Free Generator to pay a deposit amount of 100,000 US dollars.

Would Infinity SAV would pay for technology, if it wouldn't actually work? And if it did pay for it and this technology works - why it shouldn't want to get its money back? Once some distributor buys working overunity device, then he also gets its know-how automatically, because every such a device can be reversely engineered. Infinity SAV Team must somehow protect itself against dishonest dealers, who will never sell anything and who just want to steal its know-how.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 11:35:23 AM
Quote
For people interested some replications of the mini exciter. Mini exciter was not designed to light Neon bulbs.

Why we should be interested for it if you admitted already, that it doesn't generate overunity?  What this device is supposed to illustrate after then? Many devices can draw lower current at higher powering voltages, whereas their load power still increases - but this is still not demonstration of any overunity. The impedance of motor increases with increased revolutions, but it still draws more power from load. The light bulb behaves in the same way due to dependence of its resistance on temperature of filament, so it can serve as a varistor.

Quote
If I connect a low-inductance TBF pancake coil in a standard PNP JT circuit, it will work just about as well as an ordinary solenoidal or toroidal coil. The test fails to reject this hypothesis.


The question is, why it should behave differently?  You even didn't measure the input and output power of your circuit, so your experiment is completely useless. Even if such a coil would provide the overunity, would it behave differently in Joule Thief circuit? You should arrange the circuit in a way, which would allow the occasional overunity to manifest itself at output rather than wasted in base current.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 08, 2017, 11:53:05 AM
Why we should be interested for it if you admitted already, that it doesn't generate overunity?  What this device is supposed to illustrate after then? Many devices can draw lower current at higher powering voltages, whereas their load power still increases - but this is still not demonstration of any overunity. The impedance of motor increases with increased revolutions, but it still draws more power from load. The light bulb behaves in the same way due to dependence of its resistance on temperature of filament, so it can serve as a varistor.

Hi Zephir ,
you should not particularize your inner feelings because maybe exist more people interested . If you don't want, is up to you my friend , but let me tell you that a house is not started from the roof . I told you that circuit should be used like a tool to be study , nothing more .

Since the begin you are make a desperate effort to "suck" something more from me (info), but i will tell you exactly what i tell before to you in PM :
I'm not in this forum to sell nothing , i don't want your money offers ether from others . What i give is free ! without recall nothing in exchange .
So you should take or leave , nothing of your arguments will convince me .

Have a nice day

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Grumage on April 08, 2017, 12:29:11 PM
Good morning Nelson.

May I ask a simple question regarding your " Mini Radiant Exciter " circuit, schematic posted on the previous page?

I used a commercial " potted " 240/24 0 24 transformer just using one of the 24 volt windings.

It is connected in series from source.

Is it the 240 volt or the 24 volt winding that's in series from the source? As it has been some time since I built it I have forgotten which way I used the transformer.   :)

I'm thinking of having another look at this....... ;)

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 12:30:06 PM
Quote
I'm not in this forum to sell nothing , i don't want your money offers ether from others

I didn't promise you any money. But once you submit the link to some silent presentations without further explanation, then it's legitimate for us to ask for a better explanation - don't you think? It's indeed your full right to dismiss it - but you shouldn't consider it as a business proposal, because it isn't, desperate the less.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 01:04:46 PM

Wrong again! All real wires have resistance and ALL REAL CAPACITORS do too. Look up "ESR" wrt capacitors. inFor this claim of yours to be true you would have to have a capacitor with zero resistance and a connection with zero resistance, both impossible  reality, and the current on charge and discharge would be _infinite_, taking no time, which is what a vertical line means. Infinite slope! A change in charge over +no change in time+ !!!! Ridiculous on the face of it, as everyone _actually_ knows.
 
Good luck with that.

Anyone with a scope and the wit to use it can prove you wrong in fifteen minutes.

You want to keep moving goalposts and constructing your strawman arguments instead of admitting that you were wrong, go ahead. You'll wind up here just like you wound up at EF: nobody pays attention to you since they all know that you are full of yourself, you misrepresent and misunderstand and prevaricate, and you will never admit that you are wrong.

@Tinselkoala,

Tesla's first patent described his "Spark Gap Generator". A capacitor has one plate attached to a ground and the other plate to an antenna. There are spark gap electrodes between the capacitor plates that are in close adjacency to the plates. A radiant charge builds between the capacitor plates. This charge reduces resistance between the spark gap electrodes and when the resistance drops below the charge level a spark occurs.   

Take a look at the outrageous and pompous statement you made above in your fattened conceit: "For this claim of yours to be true you would have to have a capacitor with zero resistance and a connection with zero resistance, both impossible"

Where's the resistance when the spark occurs? 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 08, 2017, 01:19:50 PM
Would Infinity SAV would pay for technology, if it wouldn't actually work? And if it did pay for it and this technology works - why it shouldn't want to get its money back? Once some distributor buys working overunity device, then he also gets its know-how automatically, because every such a device can be reversely engineered. Infinity SAV Team must somehow protect itself against dishonest dealers, who will never sell anything and who just want to steal its know-how.

There is a sucker born every minute.  In my opinion "World Infinity SAV" comes from the "Mike Brady" school of "Perendev motor" infamy.  You can look him up for yourself.  Therefore in my opinion they are criminals.

"Infinity SAV Team" are looking for people just like you that want to believe and they have money to "invest."  The money will never be recuperated, they want to steal it and live off of it without having to work.

As far as the "free energy machine" goes, I will just quote myself when discussing Wayne Travis and his groaning bellows machine:

<<< If what he had was real, it would completely shake the world up and be the biggest news story of the 21st century.  It would completely change civilization.  Wayne would be on the cover of Time and Newsweek.  What you have instead is Wayne pitching, "Soon we will be in the business of selling energy systems to our customers" as if he was talking about something mundane like selling prefabricated garages to industrial customers.  It's just totally ridiculous.  If you step outside of the "bubble" you can see the tragicomic aspect to this whole farce.  >>>

The same thing applies here.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 01:24:43 PM
Quote
In my opinion "World Infinity SAV" comes from the "Mike Brady" school of "Perendev motor" infamy.

Your opinion is solely unqualified, the principle of Infinity SAV Team's generator is completely different from Perendev motor - it even works in opposite way: i.e. as a dynamo. The fact, that layman like you sees some aluminum cylinder stuffed with neodymium magnets doesn't imply, it's a Perendev motor of sort.

Quote
There is a sucker born every minute.

Such us? Who actually sells the overunity device at the web in this moment? Instead of it, the patoskeptic trolls are flooding this forum every minute.

Quote
If what he had was real, it would completely shake the world up and be the biggest news story of the 21st century.

LOL, the Copernicus theory was real and yet the mainstream science didn't even bother to look at it for another 160 years. The first attempt for replication of overunity in electrical circuit is currently delayed for 145 years (Cook 1871 (https://www.google.com/patents/US119825)), cold fusion finding 90 years (Panneth/Petters 1926 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cber.19260590860/abstract)), Woodward drive (http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00665932) 26 years, EMDrive (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=36313.0;attach=809343) 18 years and room superconductivity (http://www.seminarsonly.com/electrical & electronics/Ultraconductors.php) finding by 45 years. And I'm not even talking about some industrial utilization - only about first serious attempt for replication published in peer-reviewed literature. The findings get accepted only when they add jobs and profit to existing ruling class, once they threaten it (which is typical just for actually breakthrough findings - i.e. not incremental progress), then they get ignored with no mercy. From this perspective, the ignorance of breakthrough findings is rather strict rule, than some socioeconomical anomaly.

The "argument of yours" is most typical pluralistic ignorance fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralistic_ignorance) of pathoskeptics: if these findings are real breakthroughs, how is it possible, that nobody is bothered with attempts for their replications?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 08, 2017, 01:37:54 PM
I didn't promise you any money. But once you submit the link to some silent presentations without further explanation, then it's legitimate for us to ask for a better explanation - don't you think? It's indeed your full right to dismiss it - but you shouldn't consider it as a business proposal, because it isn't, desperate the less.

Hi Zephir,
I'm not particularize  you , but i assure to you that some already make real € propose.
What is legitimate in my perspective is , if you are really interested in that circuit  you should replicate them  , is not the small amount of money and time that you will spend in that circuit that will you make more poor , otherwise just ignore like the people you critic almost time, did in past .
I up to you , you are free :)

cheers

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: nelsonrochaa on April 08, 2017, 01:40:49 PM
Good morning Nelson.

May I ask a simple question regarding your " Mini Radiant Exciter " circuit, schematic posted on the previous page?

I used a commercial " potted " 240/24 0 24 transformer just using one of the 24 volt windings.

It is connected in series from source.

Is it the 240 volt or the 24 volt winding that's in series from the source? As it has been some time since I built it I have forgotten which way I used the transformer.   :)

I'm thinking of having another look at this....... ;)

Kind regards, Graham.

Hi Graham,
Is the primary side of transformer that is connected ; the transformer i used is 240v x 9v normally  used in a commercial electronic inboard .

wish you the best

Nelson Rocha
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 01:54:08 PM
Quote
if you are really interested in that circuit  you should replicate them

This is the same story: why I should get really interested about your circuit? What does it so exceptionally? Once you're whining about trolls (http://overunity.com/profile/nelsonrochaa.78156/area/showposts/start/30/) flooding this forum, you shouldn't also behave like the troll. Once you start to whine, you got ignored this community (on behalf of Akula or whoever else), you should also ask yourself, what did you really submitted to it. You're doing everything for being ignored with no mercy: you want the attention for nothing, just for informal cat & mice game.

You should realize, why we all are visiting this forum: this forum is dedicated for sharing of information, not for its keeping. This forum is dedicated for exploration of overunity, not for its classification. This forum is dedicated for overunity devices, not for another ones. And so on - everyone who things and behaves differently undermines the very purpose of this forum and the very reason of his own existence here. Is it really so difficult to understand it?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 08, 2017, 02:04:25 PM
LOL, the Copernicus theory was real and yet the mainstream science didn't even bother to look at it for another 160 years. The first attempt for replication of overunity in electrical circuit is currently delayed for 145 years (Cook 1871 (https://www.google.com/patents/US119825)), cold fusion finding 90 years (Panneth/Petters 1926 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cber.19260590860/abstract)), Woodward drive (http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00665932) 26 years, EMDrive (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=36313.0;attach=809343) 18 years and room superconductivity (http://www.seminarsonly.com/electrical & electronics/Ultraconductors.php) finding by 45 years. And I'm not even talking about some industrial utilization - only about first serious attempt for replication published in peer-reviewed literature. The findings get accepted only when they add jobs and profit to existing ruling class, once they threaten it (which is typical just for actually breakthrough findings - i.e. not incremental progress), then they get ignored with no mercy. From this perspective, the ignorance of breakthrough findings is rather strict rule, than some socioeconomical anomaly.

The "argument of yours" is most typical pluralistic ignorance fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralistic_ignorance) of pathoskeptics: if these findings are real breakthroughs, how is it possible, that nobody is bothered with attempts for their replications?

Oh sure, like when the whole world was shaken up in 1989 when they announced cold fusion and people thought it was legitimate.  It was the biggest news story across the world the day it was announced.

So, no, you can't run a mail order company selling free energy devices and be just like any other business.  If it really was real, it would shake up the entire world.

It's just a con and they are looking for people like you to feed off of and use.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 02:17:42 PM
@Tinselkola,

Where are you Bub? In bed with a hangover?

"The current on charge and discharge would be _infinite_, taking no time, which is what a vertical line means. Infinite slope! A change in charge over +no change in time+" Impossible you say?

You boldly accused me of misunderstanding, misrepresenting and prevaricating: How dare you be so insolent to me you cheap carnival huckster!

Tesla wrote at great length about the infinity of the spark, and spoke of it at conferences with contemporaries like Max Plank and Albert Einstien.

This is the crux of the infinite power of the impulse magnetisem, and not understood by either you or Milehigh!

I supply proof of it in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeJ5wHBpaf4
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 02:37:56 PM
Quote
like when the whole world was shaken up in 1989 when they announced cold fusion and people thought it was legitimate

And it isn't? Currently (actually in 2006 already) the Fleischman/Pons fusion at palladium is already replicated with 90+% reproducibility (https://sapienza.pure.elsevier.com/en/publications/some-recent-results-at-enea). ENEA Fusion labs (http://www.fusione.enea.it/LABORATORIES/Tec/membrane.html.en) is professionally equipped and governmentally funded research base, which is subsidized even by Bill Gates (http://www.larena.it/home/economia/gates-finanza-l-enea-vicini-ad-un-intesa-1.3129089#scroll=911). The achieving of reproducibility in cold fusion research just requires the thoroughness and streamlined research effort - after all, like any other advanced human activity. For example the yield of microprocessors in semiconductor industry is often lower than 60% - and yet nobody doubts their existence. Despite these successes no one of mainstream research basis exhibits an interest about this technology, because it would threat their own nuclear and renewable business: from tokamaks over solar cells to batteries.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 08, 2017, 02:47:56 PM
And it isn't? Currently (in 2009 actually) the Fleischman/Pons fusion at palladium is already replicated with 75+% reproducibility (http://old.enea.it/produzione_scientifica/pdf_brief/Violante_ExcessPower.pdf). ENEA Fusion labs (http://www.fusione.enea.it/LABORATORIES/Tec/membrane.html.en) is professionally equipped and governmentally funded research base, which is subsidized even by Bill Gates (http://www.larena.it/home/economia/gates-finanza-l-enea-vicini-ad-un-intesa-1.3129089#scroll=911).

Yes, about two or three years ago "cold fusion got hot again" and it was covered on the show 60 Minutes.  Now it's back to being nowhere and the most infamous person associated with cold fusion, Rossi, is considered by most to be a fraud.  Defkalion is dead, they just vanished in a vortex of BS.

If cold fusion was real it would be applied and in use today.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 02:55:17 PM
Who can explain why the Tesla series connected bifilar carries twice the "Magnetization Impulse Charge" as the single wire coil of equal inductance?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 02:57:13 PM
Quote
Now it's back to being nowhere


But how it could refuse the 90+% reproducibility of ENEA results (https://sapienza.pure.elsevier.com/en/publications/some-recent-results-at-enea)? Of course, palladium is expensive and Rossi/Defkalion worked with cheaper nickel, which may be more difficult to handle. But it is reliable ground for further research. You cannot get even the tokamak or thorium based energy without investments into research, despite its perfectly feasible. Are you telling me, that the tokamak or thorium energy is not possible, because it's also promised and delayed for decades only? Is the laser fusion impossible just because of recent failure of NIF? If not, why the acceptance logic of cold fusion should be different? The physicists even didn't start to attempt for it seriously (no results published in peer-reviewed journals with compare to NIF / tokamak / thorium research). Why we should expect positive results with zero or even negative attitude, if even the heavily funded research got no usable results yet?

Quote
Who can explain why the Tesla series connected bifilar carries twice the "Magnetization Impulse Charge" then the single wire coil of equal inductance?

When every two neighboring wires within pancake bifilar coil cancel their magnetism each other, then you indeed must exert more energy for achieving the same magnetization at certain distance from them. If this answer doesn't satisfy you, then how the "Magnetization Impulse Charge" is actually defined (circuit diagram, specification of experiments, oscillograms)? We can attempt for explanation only the problems, which are well defined. The vaguely defined problems can get vague answers only.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 03:02:33 PM

But how it could refuse the 90+% reproducibility of ENEA results (https://sapienza.pure.elsevier.com/en/publications/some-recent-results-at-enea)? Of course, palladium is expensive and Rossi/Defkalion worked with cheaper nickel, which may be more difficult to handle. But it is reliable ground for further research. You cannot get even the tokamak or thorium based energy without investments into research, despite its perfectly feasible. Are you telling me, that the tokamak or thorium energy is not possible, because it's also promised for decades only? If not, why the acceptance logic of cold fusion should be different? The physicists even didn't attempt for it seriously.

What does this have to do with the thread topic?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 03:14:17 PM
@Tinselkoala and Milehigh,

O.K. The charge curves overlap upside down. That's cleared up now. Let's hear more about your non-infinity of the spark theory!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 08, 2017, 03:30:19 PM
Allen
I could be wrong....??
But it would seem you just yelled at a guy for an off topic comment

and then you inserted a question that wiil take it even further off topic for a hundred more pages of flame wars...


How the heck could we ever moderate here and keep things on topic?

Poor Mags...
yeesh

persons here who Build these coils are trying to do experiments
ON TOPIC experiments

whoever doesn't like it and wants to discuss other topics should start a separate thread.

its not even an opinion

just the way its supposed to be.

you wanna fight with Tinsel and Miles ?
I'll Pull the Steel cage outta storage and we'll setup a thread and sell tickets

PLEASE RESPECT THIS MANS THREAD

we do have moderation available here....

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 03:43:41 PM
Allen
I could be wrong....??
But it would seem you just yelled at a guy for an off topic comment

and then you inserted a question that wiil take it even further off topic for a hundred more pages of flame wars...


How the heck could we ever moderate here and keep things on topic?

Poor Mags...
yeesh

persons here who Build these coils are trying to do experiments
ON TOPIC experiments

whoever doesn't like it and wants to discuss other topics should start a separate thread.

its not even an opinion

just the way its supposed to be.

you wanna fight with Tinsel and Miles ?
I'll Pull the Steel cage outta storage and we'll setup a thread and sell tickets

PLEASE RESPECT THIS MANS THREAD

we do have moderation available here....

I beg your pardon Chet. You did nothing to scold Tinselkoala the whole time he ravaged me over fuzzy language. There's a big difference between being dead wrong and incorrectly stated. Both Milehigh and Tinselkoala got 86'd by Arron over at Energetic forum where both of us are in good standing for their "Steam Punk" illogic. The issue is the infinite speed of the gravity wave lectured about by Eric Dollard and the patent by Nicola on his bifilar coil as a coil for electro-magnets.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 08, 2017, 04:00:24 PM
would seem this thread will have to go wherever you  wish to go ??

in the mean time some are discussing options to get the experiments done elsewhere

another thread dedicated to builders [on topic] and experiments.

I cannot believe it has to be this way Allen ??

I will not type a single word in response to you
this has gone too far

PLEASE START A NEW TOPIC AND SEND OUT INVITATIONS THIS NEEDS TO END ONCE AND FOR ALL

i'LL PULL OUT THE STEEL CAGE

********
EDIT

Removed info for another thread start up


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 04:03:42 PM
Tinselkoala ridiculed me because no one any longer comments in response to my claims because there're in the woods along with him and Milehigh who are both extremely narrow minded, and dominate this web site with arrogant and abusive insults mostly directed at newbie's with English for a second language.

Here's a clue: The Tesla bifilar cancels it's self inductance. What would this do to double the strength of the magnet pulse over a single wire coil that's retarded by "Flyback"?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 04:24:12 PM
Tesla's bifilar doe's not send a "Negative Current" into the ferrite core when the current's interrupted.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 04:30:59 PM
Quote
The Tesla bifilar cancels it's self inductance.

Does it really (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtH9bp7QVo)? Can you show us your own data?

Quote
Tesla's bifilar doe's not send a "Negative Current" into the ferrite core when the current's interrupted.

Does it really? For example TinselCoala presented here his "testbed" JouleThief circuit, in which the bifilar coil worked in the same way, like this normal one.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 08, 2017, 04:52:21 PM
Tinselkoala ridiculed me because no one any longer comments in response to my claims because there're in the woods along with him and Milehigh who are both extremely narrow minded, and dominate this web site with arrogant and abusive insults mostly directed at newbie's with English for a second language.

No, don't spiral out of control, no pun intended.

I have given Evostars some decent relevant information about a self-resonating coil.  It's up to him to understand it or indulge in whatever stuff he is reading from the free energy/alternative pulp press and websphere.

That "alternative view" of electronics has its severe limitations.  Look at poor Chris Mr. IQ, he worked on a bench for 10 full years and clearly demonstrated that he barely had a clue with respect to what he was doing.  It's when life sometimes is stranger than fiction.  Just like people talk about resonance all the time and they don't even know what it is.  I have mostly given up and just watch the show.  You can believe whatever it is you want to believe but since I decided to contribute this thread I countered some of your disinformation.

Yes this thread has gotten off track a bit, but look at the equivalent thread on EF.  It's a complete ghost town and nobody has anything to say.

The most relevant fact about a self-resonating coil or a bifilar pancake self-resonating coil is that they are essentially useless.  There is a minuscule amount of energy being exchanged in the self-resonance and it has no practical applications whatsoever.  Anybody is welcome to correct me if I am wrong and at the same time I would not be surprised if there are whole chapters in the pulp press devoted to self-resonating coils.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 05:11:57 PM
Quote
The most relevant fact about a self-resonating coil or a bifilar pancake self-resonating coil is that they are essentially useless.

Only for pathoskeptical ignorant trolls who believe the cold fusion doesn't work and who cannot distinguish Infinity SAV Team generator from Perendev motor. The true is, most of replicators didn't even start with serious research of bifilar coil. Their naivety complements the ignorance of pathoskeptics rather reliably. The forums like these ones need really solid moderation for to get somewhere. And also hierarchical, i.e. not linear structure (which becomes incomprehensible rather fast).
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 05:20:40 PM
Assuming anyone's watched my 48 Hex nut locking video; How far can we stretch the wire and what's the upward limit on the number of nuts per spark of locking power?

Is the lone wire an inductor? How can it store power? No power stored equals zero flyback and zero negative current to the Hex nuts when the current's interrupted.

It's important to understand that a spark jumps between the battery electrode and the wire end before it's connected, and that it's this input spark that carries the magnetizing power.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 08, 2017, 05:29:24 PM
Only for pathoskeptical ignorant trolls who believe the cold fusion doesn't work and who cannot distinguish Infinity SAV Team generator from Perendev motor. The true is, most of replicators didn't even start with serious research of bifilar coil. Their naivety complements the ignorance of pathoskeptics rather reliably. The forums like these ones need really solid moderation for to get somewhere. And also hierarchical, i.e. not linear structure (which becomes incomprehensible rather fast).

Yes, you have clearly established yourself as a near-crazed zealot for over unity.  But I am not a troll and your straw man arguments about me are tedious.  I said there are no commercial cold fusion-based systems which is a fact.  I did not say anything else about that subject.  I did not say there was any equivalency between the fake Perendev motor and the fake company called Infinity SAV Team.  I have qualified Infinity SAV Team as fake.  That's my opinion, like it or not.

Yes, you gobble up free energy clips on YouTube like they are jellybeans.  You would find a soulmate in FatBird.

I am no troll, stop abusing that term.  Evostars was interested in the concept of a self-resonating coil and I shared some information with him.

If I can offer you some advice it would be to lower the volume and demonstrate an over unity system if you can.  That's what you are here for, right?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 08, 2017, 05:30:23 PM
Allen
I could be wrong....??
But it would seem you just yelled at a guy for an off topic comment

and then you inserted a question that wiil take it even further off topic for a hundred more pages of flame wars...


How the heck could we ever moderate here and keep things on topic?

Poor Mags...
yeesh

persons here who Build these coils are trying to do experiments
ON TOPIC experiments

whoever doesn't like it and wants to discuss other topics should start a separate thread.

its not even an opinion

just the way its supposed to be.

you wanna fight with Tinsel and Miles ?
I'll Pull the Steel cage outta storage and we'll setup a thread and sell tickets

PLEASE RESPECT THIS MANS THREAD

we do have moderation available here....


+1

and in addition to all,
Think for yourself. Question authority.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 05:41:15 PM
Now, enough of twaddling and try to think about this:

The magnets in general attract ferromagnetic material - like the piece of ferrite - without respect orientation of their poles, right? What will happen, if we place another magnet behind this ferrite?

If the 2nd magnet will be equally oriented to polarity of the 1st magnet, then its placement behind the ferrite will just increase the attractive force between them - OK?

But what will happen, if the 2nd magnet will get oriented against 1st magnet in mirror-like way? After then we can achieve the situation/geometry, during which the attractive force of 1st magnet to ferrite will get  exactly balanced with the repulsive force of the 2nd magnet. In another words, the ferrites would move freely along magnets without any cogging, because the magnetic forces of both magnets will compensate mutually. And the magnets would also move along each other without any macroscopic forces.

The final question is, what we could expect, if we would surround the ferrite with coil and if we attempt to collect current induced during mutual motion of magnets and/or ferrite between them.

Intuitively we could expect, that no electromotoric force will be induced within such a coil, because the effects of magnetic field of both counteracting magnets will compensate mutually. The polarity of magnetic field doesn't actually change within ferrite - the magnetic fields of both counteracting magnets will only change its saturation.

But how the situation will change, once we use bifilar coil at the place of collecting coil wound around ferrite? The bifilar coil is sensitive just to changes of magnetization - not the direction of magnetic field - because its wires collect magnetic field in alternating direction. Therefore it can induce the voltage and this voltage will not be affected with back-electromotive force, because the ferrites are already moving freely between magnets. In another words, any electricity induced into bifilar coil in this arrangement will be generated for free.

Of course the moving magnets can be replaced with electromagnets (a pair of bucking coils) with variable magnetic field and to achieve a solid state generator ("MEG") in this way. Its problem is, the variable magnetization of electromagnet cores will be the source of additional hysteresis loses, which may decrease the energy yield. If we use air cored coils, we would need to increase the working frequency of device significantly for to maintain energy density in acceptable range,  so that we'll get the Kapagen circuit.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 08, 2017, 05:42:13 PM
evostar
here thinking for yourself
is what its all about.

how do we get there ?

we present an idea which can be discussed ? we say we have something unusual?
we experiment
you mentioned something about stacking coils and some type of effect

maybe we can start there?
would you be interested ?[me too

its like hearding cats over here, I must add very interesting for an A D D addict [might have some experience with that... :o
but not very productive.
you kind of got absorbed in the noise

where would you like to see this thread go
an experiment ?
or

respectfully
Chet K
PS
I must add there are "thousands of years of collective knowledge within this group [personal experience's and testing
you may find your idea has already been tested here or elsewhere

people may share that knowledge to save time [actual experiments they performed ]?

However... this of course is just for reference ,any experimental attempt at a replication of a thought [not actual PDF replication]
is never grounds  to dismiss a claim ?

unless as an example... the Koala's claim... to be able to fly by flapping of arms [he keeps trying to get certain theorists to Vet this  claim from high locations
 :o


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 06:26:10 PM
Quote
I have qualified Infinity SAV Team as fake.  That's my opinion, like it or not

We aren't here to discuss opinions, only facts or rational ideas. Once you have no evidence or at least indicia for your suspicion, then you're religious troll who believes in things without rational substance. A pathoskeptic troll being more specific. That's my opinion about you - like it or not.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 08, 2017, 06:41:50 PM
We aren't here to discuss opinions, only facts or rational ideas. Once you have no evidence or at least indicia for your suspicion, then you're religious troll who believes in things without rational substance. A pathoskeptic troll being more specific. That's my opinion about you - like it or not.

You get a ROFL for that particular bit of hypocrisy.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 08, 2017, 06:43:01 PM
Zephir
this is the last time I will post off topic here [you seed off topic at will]

where is this SAV being discussed here ?
have you or anyone ever spoken with them or visited them?
if not why not ?

that is after all what we do here ,actually one of the things I personally put great effort into ?
if you can't find the topic here ..
START ONE
I will do the rest...[or hopefully others will help too ,but not to be counted on.. or necessary .

respectfully
Chet K
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 08, 2017, 06:50:58 PM
Quote from Synchro:

Quote

    Who can explain why the Tesla series connected bifilar carries twice the "Magnetization Impulse Charge" then the single wire coil of equal inductance?

Reply from Z:
Quote
When every two neighboring wires within pancake bifilar coil cancel their magnetism each other, then you indeed must exert more energy for achieving the same magnetization at certain distance from them.

One simply must laugh at these statements.
S. makes a false claim with respect to the Tesla Bifilar winding, and the answer Z. talks about the HAIRPIN bifilar winding which does cancel magnetism and inductance between two neighboring wires... whereas the Tesla Bifilar winding does not.

Another case where Z seems to confuse the Tesla winding with the HAIRPIN winding is shown in the diagram he posted:
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 07:00:30 PM
There are four types of bifilar winding, therefore I don't care which type you actually use - for short coils it actually doesn't matter.
The (pretense of) laughing is everything, what the dull pathoskeptics are usually capable of, once they lack rational arguments.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 08, 2017, 07:05:55 PM
Tesla's bifilar doe's not send a "Negative Current" into the ferrite core when the current's interrupted.

And neither do other coils.

The Tesla bifilar coil behaves in the same way as a straight winding coil in my "Coil Current Direction" demonstrations.

Both you and Zephir have been unable to explain why, if coil current reverses direction, the Blue LED flashes but the Green LED does not.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 08, 2017, 07:07:48 PM
There are four types of bifilar winding, therefore I don't care which type you actually use - for short coils it actually doesn't matter.
The (pretense of) laughing is everything, what the dull pathoskeptics are usually capable of, once they lack rational arguments.

Wrong again. It actually DOES matter, even for short coils.

You can talk about "rational arguments" all you like. If your premises are false then your conclusions are invalid, even if the form of the argument is correct. And you have stated many false premises here.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 07:09:42 PM
Quote
The Tesla bifilar coil behaves in the same way as a straight winding coil in my "Coil Current Direction" demonstrations.

Of course it doesn't - the impedance of coil always depends on its geometry, even for short coil - by your very own argument... :-)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 08, 2017, 07:13:30 PM
Now, enough of twaddling and try to think about this:

The magnets in general attract ferromagnetic material - like the piece of ferrite - without respect orientation of their poles, right? What will happen, if we place another magnet behind this ferrite?

If the 2nd magnet will be equally oriented to polarity of the 1st magnet, then its placement behind the ferrite will just increase the attractive force between them - OK?

But what will happen, if the 2nd magnet will get oriented against 1st magnet in mirror-like way? After then we can achieve the situation/geometry, during which the attractive force of 1st magnet to ferrite will get  exactly balanced with the repulsive force of the 2nd magnet. In another words, the ferrites would move freely along magnets without any cogging, because the magnetic forces of both magnets will compensate mutually. And the magnets would also move along each other without any macroscopic forces.

The final question is, what we could expect, if we would surround the ferrite with coil and if we attempt to collect current induced during mutual motion of magnets and/or ferrite between them.

Intuitively we could expect, that no electromotoric force will be induced within such a coil, because the effects of magnetic field of both counteracting magnets will compensate mutually. The polarity of magnetic field doesn't actually change within ferrite - the magnetic fields of both counteracting magnets will only change its saturation.

But how the situation will change, once we use bifilar coil at the place of collecting coil wound around ferrite? The bifilar coil is sensitive just to changes of magnetization - not the direction of magnetic field - because its wires collect magnetic field in alternating direction. Therefore it can induce the voltage and this voltage will not be affected with back-electromotive force, because the ferrites are already moving freely between magnets. In another words, any electricity induced into bifilar coil in this arrangement will be generated for free.

Of course the moving magnets can be replaced with electromagnets (a pair of bucking coils) with variable magnetic field and to achieve a solid state generator ("MEG") in this way. Its problem is, the variable magnetization of electromagnet cores will be the source of additional hysteresis loses, which may decrease the energy yield. If we use air cored coils, we would need to increase the working frequency of device significantly for to maintain energy density in acceptable range,  so that we'll get the Kapagen circuit.

The part I have highlighted is simply not true.  I have been working with the idea of trying to cancel the cogging effect for about 3 years now.  You are confusing the cogging effect with the generation of bemf.  They have nothing to do with each other.  I have built several different configurations of machines that had no cogging effect but they all still generated bemf.  If you have a design that shows something different then please present it.  I will respectfully then admit I am wrong, but only after you can show that I am wrong.

Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 08, 2017, 07:13:46 PM
@Tinselkola,

Where are you Bub? In bed with a hangover?

"The current on charge and discharge would be _infinite_, taking no time, which is what a vertical line means. Infinite slope! A change in charge over +no change in time+" Impossible you say?

You boldly accused me of misunderstanding, misrepresenting and prevaricating: How dare you be so insolent to me you cheap carnival huckster!

Tesla wrote at great length about the infinity of the spark, and spoke of it at conferences with contemporaries like Max Plank and Albert Einstien.

This is the crux of the infinite power of the impulse magnetisem, and not understood by either you or Milehigh!

I supply proof of it in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeJ5wHBpaf4

That is not proof of your contentions, it is merely a poorly performed demonstration where you do
not properly control your variables.


Let's review.
Here are some recent posts from Syncro.


(snip)
You're a compulsive psychopath and need help.


You're stinking drunk and a slob!

Barf, blubber puss sucking shyster schwienehunt!


Booze hound!

Can't you make up your mind?

In some countries these unfounded insults that you have thrown at me would be grounds for a lawsuit. In some other places, they would get you much worse than that.

Here, all they may get you is derision and BIPS (banning in plain sight, thanks MarkE, we miss you.) But you really should read the TOS again.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 07:16:56 PM
Quote
You are confusing the cogging effect with the generation of bemf.

Nope, I don't use these two concepts interchangeably and you're fighting with ghosts. The mirror-like arrangement of magnets eliminates the cogging (variable reluctance effect), the mirror-like arrangement of wires within bifilar coil eliminates the BEMF.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 08, 2017, 07:18:14 PM
Of course it doesn't - the impedance of coil always depends on its geometry, even for short coil - by your very own argument... :-)

Of course it does behave in the same way in the coil current test with respect to current direction when the power is interrupted .... I have tested it! Where are YOUR DEMONSTRATIONS, credible outside references, and/or experiments of your own that refute my findings and demonstrations?

Nowhere. All you have is words and faulty contentions that you cannot back up with your own work.

Once again I challenge you to explain the LED flashes in my Coil Current demonstrations, especially the second one. You have dodged this challenge several times... since the flashes clearly falsify your claim that the current reverses.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 08, 2017, 07:19:38 PM
Nope, I don't use these two concepts interchangeably and you're fighting with ghosts. The mirror-like arrangement of magnets eliminates the cogging, the mirror-like arrangement of wires within bifilar coil eliminates the BEMF.

There you go again. You have once again used the HAIRPIN bifilar characteristics when someone else (and this thread!) is talking about the TESLA SERIES_CONNECTED BIFILAR WINDING as described in his patent.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 07:22:42 PM
And neither do other coils.

The Tesla bifilar coil behaves in the same way as a straight winding coil in my "Coil Current Direction" demonstrations.

Both you and Zephir have been unable to explain why, if coil current reverses direction, the Blue LED flashes but the Green LED does not.


@Tinselkoala,


Apparently you're awakened from your alcoholic stupor. What about the non-infinite spark, and the imaginary "Negative Current"?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 08, 2017, 07:25:24 PM
It should be obvious that this man Zephir is an empty suit / talking head with no true contributions .

he lives By "don't confuse me with the facts My mind is made up "

your wasting oxygen and energy with this man, I asked him several times about SAV [or whatever]

the sound of Crickets ??

he was asked maybe fiffty times now about his tests with coils ?

he dances and performs... points over here <<<<<< points over there >>>>>>>>
Nothing !!

an empty suit ...

HEY ALLEN ??
you missing Aarons place that much already ??

follow terms of service or your view will change

and you can take that to the bank !!

and Zephir below
I'm not the talking head disputing a claim with no test data of your own

show where the test presented is wrong ?

you can't because it is not
now you add meaningless flavors to your nonsense

its not our first summer here we've seen you before ...all talk [ just noise

no action at all
and what about SAV ??

your act truly has gotten old and very predictable.

post an experiment to support your claims or leave this thread to evostar and his work







Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 07:25:49 PM
Quote
You have once again used the HAIRPIN bifilar characteristics when someone else (and this thread!) is talking about the TESLA SERIES_CONNECTED BIFILAR WINDING as described in his patent.

I know what I drew in context of my picture - and why I should care what someone else said here in different context? The thread title isn't about some particular bifilar coil configuration. We have four ones (http://i.imgur.com/GwPVM8W.gif).

Quote
It should be obvious that this man Zephir is an empty suit / talking head with no true contributions.

Lets the readers decide it, they have their own opinion ...BTW which exactly did you contribute here with? You're only doubting here, and doubting, and doubting... in 5797 posts already.. Yawn, it gets boring..
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 08, 2017, 07:31:47 PM

@Tinselkoala,


Apparently you're awakened from your alcoholic stupor. What about the non-infinite spark, and the imaginary "Negative Current"?

Preserved for posterity... and evidence.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 08, 2017, 07:34:51 PM
I know what I drew in context of my picture - and why I should care what someone else said here in different context? The thread title isn't about some particular bifilar coil configuration. We have four ones (http://i.imgur.com/GwPVM8W.gif).

Lets the readers decide it, they have their own opinion ...BTW which exactly did you contribute here with? You're only doubting here, and doubting, and doubting... Yawn, boring..

Spin it all you like, the fact remains that Synchro specifically said "tesla bifilar" in his question and you answered with the characteristics of the hairpin bifilar.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 07:42:56 PM
Quote
Synchro specifically said "tesla bifilar" in his question and you answered with the characteristics of the hairpin bifilar.

But this is an evostar's thread, isn't it? And I didn't draw my picture as a response for anyone's question here. Why I should care what @Synchro or whoever else has said somewhere in the middle of the thread? It has 500+ posts already. Get real for a moment at least.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 08, 2017, 07:48:52 PM
Nope, I don't use these two concepts interchangeably and you're fighting with ghosts. The mirror-like arrangement of magnets eliminates the cogging (variable reluctance effect), the mirror-like arrangement of wires within bifilar coil eliminates the BEMF.

Your answer in this post clearly contradicts your own previous post.  You clearly said that using opposing magnets eliminates cogging.  Then you said passing a bifilar coil through the magnets because it has no drag will have no BEMF.  And then as TK has pointed out you didn't even show a bifilar coil but the hairpin coil.  If you want to discuss electronics with real electronic techs you need to get your act together or go away.  Then come back with something more than a bunch of confused ideas.  Maybe even a real video showing you can actually do something besides post nonsense.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 08, 2017, 07:54:57 PM
Quote
TK has pointed out you didn't even show a bifilar coil but the hairpin coil.

Huh? All these coils are bifilar (http://i.imgur.com/GwPVM8W.gif) - believe it or not... Hairpin coil is just a special type of bifilar coil - according to TinselKoala himself (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=OcFySCAxLzs).

My ideas aren't confused at all. What you can see bellow is actually a scalar wave dynamo or transformer. It generates electromotoric force not with changing of magnetic field orientation (B-field), but with magnetic field intensity, i.e. with A-field, which propagate with scalar longitudinal waves along it. That means, the ferromagnetic domain  within ferrite don't rotate/reorient itself - they pulsate instead like the bubbles inside the cavitation heater or Rosch' KPP buoyancy system. The important thing here is, such a system isn't fully time-arrow symmetric, because the speed of EM field propagation changes inside it in every half of its cycle. The saturation of ferrite changes its magnetic permeability and as such the speed of EM wave propagation in it.

The time arrow asymmetry (variable speed of energy propagation) is necessary condition for overunity in both electric, both mechanical systems. Once we introduce an energy inside the system with different speed, than this one when we draw it back again during each cycle, then we can achieve an energy disbalance. The difference in energy flux in form of transverse waves isn't indeed miraculously created, but it's replenished from omnipresent scalar (longitudinal) wave flux, i.e. from thermal fluctuations of material. What we are essentially doing is the pumping of oriented EM wave energy from chaotic thermal motion of ferromagnetic domains, which behave like myriads of tiny Maxwell daemons there.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 08, 2017, 07:58:15 PM
deleted, not worth the waste of time
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 08:10:02 PM
@Tinselkola,


Maybe the green LED is non-flickering because there's no flyback from your "Joule Thief" bifilar.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 08:35:12 PM
And neither do other coils.

The Tesla bifilar coil behaves in the same way as a straight winding coil in my "Coil Current Direction" demonstrations.

Both you and Zephir have been unable to explain why, if coil current reverses direction, the Blue LED flashes but the Green LED does not.


@Tinselkoala,


I stated that the Tesla bifilar does not generate negative current when the current's interrupted, and you replied that "neither do other coils". What about the "Ruhmkopff Coil Secondary"?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 08, 2017, 08:54:22 PM
Allen
dragging out the steel cage
we're giving this man his thread back

will post a link to the thread shortly

Ohh
and house rules ...no low blows ,Biting or eye pokes....
and TOS applies

what say yee
Yeah or nay??

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 08:56:31 PM
deleted, not worth the waste of time.
Quote


This quote says everything about this "Quack".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 09:02:25 PM
Allen
dragging out the steel cage
we're giving this man his thread back

will post a link to the thread shortly

Ohh
and house rules ...no low blows ,Biting or eye pokes....
and TOS applies

what say yee
Yeah or nay??


@Ramset,



Start a new thread for your "Free Association" click. This is a thread about Tesla's bifilar coil and should stay the thread.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 09:05:22 PM
Lidmotor stated softly, in one of his flyback videos, that after a PM exchange with one of our heavyweights that he realized the person in question really didn't understand the meaning of "Self Inductance". Anyone care to guess who?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 08, 2017, 09:22:19 PM
Syncro

if you noticed in the post you just quoted ?
read it again !!

 YES it will be in another thread !!
and TOS will apply
cleaning out the steel cage now ...

will have the thread link here in a bit



Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 08, 2017, 09:34:37 PM
Synchro
here is your new thread ,keep it clean...shut the lights off when you leave
and follow House rules TOS
all must follow house rules

it is a moderated area too

http://overunity.com/17217/investigating-the-claims-of-member-syncro-1/new/#new

respectfully
Chet K
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2017, 10:19:57 PM
One eyed King in the land of the blind!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 09, 2017, 02:26:24 PM
Of course it does behave in the same way in the coil current test with respect to current direction when the power is interrupted .... I have tested it! Where are YOUR DEMONSTRATIONS, credible outside references, and/or experiments of your own that refute my findings and demonstrations?

Nowhere. All you have is words and faulty contentions that you cannot back up with your own work.

Once again I challenge you to explain the LED flashes in my Coil Current demonstrations, especially the second one. You have dodged this challenge several times... since the flashes clearly falsify your claim that the current reverses.

I think that many believe that because the voltage inverts across the coil,when the source current through the coil is interrupted,that the flow of current must also invert-change direction through the coil.

Yes,the voltage across the coil inverts,when the source current flowing through the coil is interrupted,but the current through the coil keeps flowing in the same direction-only now,the source is the collapsing magnetic field around the coil.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 09, 2017, 03:19:45 PM
Hi @Tinman,  I know that overunity people are all liberals by their very nature - but as a moderator you should move all off-topic comments into their corresponding threads - not to feed them with their discussion in their original thread. The question of current after interruption of coil is theoretical question of CLASSICAL physics. The overunity forums are losing their original drive and they get flooded with ignorant pathoskeptics - today most of progress actually comes from private researchers and the classical overunity forums are just watching this development in silent surprise. This is because the free hoarded community is maybe creative and inventive, but it remains undisciplined and lazy enough for implementation of its own ideas. What I'm missing here is streamlined brainstorming of experts leading to proposal and testing of particular circuits. The clueless senior twaddling is indeed mentally comfortable - but it leads nowhere.

If you want to achieve overunity, you should do many things in opposite way, than the common well behaving electricians are doing. The energy dissipating devices use transverse EM wave (light) - so you should use the longitudinal ones. Good boys electricians are using layered coils with serial windings - so you should use bifilar coils with alternating current in winding. Good electricians use planar capacitors with plates of equal area - so you have to use spherical capacitors with non-equal plates. Good boys electricians use DC current or AC current in harmonic waves - so you should use pulses. And so on...

Attached: simulation of coil breaker (http://i.imgur.com/FIgKvCL.gif) in Falstad's simulator (http://tinyurl.com/m6qwlbp)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 09, 2017, 03:20:13 PM
Assuming anyone's watched my 48 Hex nut locking video; How far can we stretch the wire and what's the upward limit on the number of nuts per spark of locking power?

Is the lone wire an inductor? How can it store power? No power stored equals zero flyback and zero negative current to the Hex nuts when the current's interrupted.

It's important to understand that a spark jumps between the battery electrode and the wire end before it's connected, and that it's this input spark that carries the magnetizing power.

No,it's the current flowing through the loop,that creates the magnetic field.
The loop being-your wire and battery.
This is the !so called! PMH effect,where the current flowing through the wire ,produces a magnetic field that radiates out to your circle of nut's,and holds them together-until one of the nuts is removed--the magnetic path is broken.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 09, 2017, 06:08:15 PM
I think that many believe that because the voltage inverts across the coil,when the source current through the coil is interrupted,that the flow of current must also invert-change direction through the coil.

Yes,the voltage across the coil inverts,when the source current flowing through the coil is interrupted,but the current through the coil keeps flowing in the same direction-only now,the source is the collapsing magnetic field around the coil.


Brad

@Tinman,

Which way does current flow in a Ruhmkopff Secondary Coil when the current's interrupted in the primary and can you define "Negative Current"?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 09, 2017, 06:15:49 PM
Synchro
the moderators here are volunteers with families to feed and full time jobs

your off topic [might be related maybe not]
post has been added here
http://overunity.com/17217/investigating-the-claims-of-member-synchro-1/msg503676/#new

where hopefully answers can follow with out making more of a mess here in evostars thread

which is also moderated thread by volunteers...if the TinMan's not halfway across the outback,
he's getting ready to go [snoozin ATM in OZ

respectfully
Chet K
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: icarus on April 09, 2017, 07:03:58 PM
For people interested some replications of the mini exciter.

Cheers

Nelson Rocha

Please Nelson control your PM

Thanx

Icarus
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 09, 2017, 08:43:57 PM
I think that many believe that because the voltage inverts across the coil,when the source current through the coil is interrupted,that the flow of current must also invert-change direction through the coil.

Yes,the voltage across the coil inverts,when the source current flowing through the coil is interrupted,but the current through the coil keeps flowing in the same direction-only now,the source is the collapsing magnetic field around the coil.


Brad

@Tinman,

Current reverses direction and travels in the same direction at the same time like the 60 Hz A.C. current in our overhead transmission lines; Like boarding a bus and moving toward the rear while the bus is accelerating forward. It may appear to a stationary observer that the bus passenger is standing still.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 09, 2017, 11:16:17 PM
Oh really? It goes both ways at the same time? I think I know some people like that. But the major transmission of electrical power over long distances doesn't.

Quote
High-voltage direct current (HVDC) is used to transmit large amounts of power over long distances or for interconnections between asynchronous grids. When electrical energy is to be transmitted over very long distances, the power lost in AC transmission becomes appreciable and it is less expensive to use direct current (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_current) instead of alternating current (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternating_current). For a very long transmission line, these lower losses (and reduced construction cost of a DC line) can offset the additional cost of the required converter stations at each end.
HVDC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current) is also used for submarine cables (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_power_cable) because AC cannot be supplied over distances of more than about 30 kilometres (19 mi), due to the fact that the cables produce too much reactive power[citation needed]. In these cases special high-voltage cables (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_cable) for DC are used. Submarine HVDC systems are often used to connect the electricity grids of islands, for example, between Great Britain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain) and continental Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Europe), between Great Britain and Ireland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland), between Tasmania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasmania) and the Australian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia) mainland, and between the North and South Islands of New Zealand (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand). Submarine connections up to 600 kilometres (370 mi) in length are presently in use.[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_transmission#cite_note-guarnieri_7-3-21)
HVDC links can be used to control problems in the grid with AC electricity flow. The power transmitted by an AC line increases as the phase angle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_angle) between source end voltage and destination ends increases, but too large a phase angle will allow the systems at either end of the line to fall out of step. Since the power flow in a DC link is controlled independently of the phases of the AC networks at either end of the link, this phase angle limit does not exist, and a DC link is always able to transfer its full rated power. A DC link therefore stabilizes the AC grid at either end, since power flow and phase angle can then be controlled independently.
As an example, to adjust the flow of AC power on a hypothetical line between Seattle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle) and Boston (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston) would require adjustment of the relative phase of the two regional electrical grids. This is an everyday occurrence in AC systems, but one that can become disrupted when AC system components fail and place unexpected loads on the remaining working grid system. With an HVDC line instead, such an interconnection would:
 Convert AC in Seattle into HVDC;
Use HVDC for the 3,000 miles of cross-country transmission; and
Convert the HVDC to locally synchronized AC in Boston,
 (and possibly in other cooperating cities along the transmission route). Such a system could be less prone to failure if parts of it were suddenly shut down. One example of a long DC transmission line is the Pacific DC Intertie (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_DC_Intertie) located in the Western United States (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_transmission (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_transmission)


--And neither does AC over shorter distances.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 09, 2017, 11:44:19 PM
@evostars,

Discharging a capacitor is like decanting water from a five gallon jug; Slow starting, followed by a strong gush  at .67, tapering off to a slow flow: Charging exactly the reverse, max charge rate at .33 capacity:


Are you saying that there is a delay in a cap discharge, due to the nature of the cap itself, or due to the impedance of the discharging device?

If we were to make a home made cap with foil, wax paper and say a straight copper wire to make end connections for each plate, which would be the better method of winding it? With the plate connection wires both starting at the beginning of the rolling, or 1 wire for the bottom plate at the beginning and the top plate wire at the end of the roll, and say its a 100 turns, would there be a difference in how the cap works in these 2 cases? Would one have more induction issues than the other?

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 09, 2017, 11:49:10 PM
Look at the graph he posted, in "support" of that claim.

Where, on that graph, is the maximum rate of charge? Where, on that graph, is the maximum rate of discharge?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 10, 2017, 12:15:16 AM
Hi @Tinman,  I know that overunity people are all liberals by their very nature - but as a moderator you should move all off-topic comments into their corresponding threads - not to feed them with their discussion in their original thread. The question of current after interruption of coil is theoretical question of CLASSICAL physics. The overunity forums are losing their original drive and they get flooded with ignorant pathoskeptics - today most of progress actually comes from private researchers and the classical overunity forums are just watching this development in silent surprise. This is because the free hoarded community is maybe creative and inventive, but it remains undisciplined and lazy enough for implementation of its own ideas. What I'm missing here is streamlined brainstorming of experts leading to proposal and testing of particular circuits. The clueless senior twaddling is indeed mentally comfortable - but it leads nowhere.

If you want to achieve overunity, you should do many things in opposite way, than the common well behaving electricians are doing. The energy dissipating devices use transverse EM wave (light) - so you should use the longitudinal ones. Good boys electricians are using layered coils with serial windings - so you should use bifilar coils with alternating current in winding. Good electricians use planar capacitors with plates of equal area - so you have to use spherical capacitors with non-equal plates. Good boys electricians use DC current or AC current in harmonic waves - so you should use pulses. And so on...

Attached: simulation of coil breaker (http://i.imgur.com/FIgKvCL.gif) in Falstad's simulator (http://tinyurl.com/m6qwlbp)



The way I understand the build up delay of self induction is that the input current through each turn induces the other turns with their 'outward expanding' magnetic fields, of which that self induction 'tries' to push against the input currents, giving us our delay to max current.  Now if the 'outward' expanding fields try to cause currents reverse of the inputs, then it is very logical that when the input is disconnected, that the magnetic field that was generated will now collapse 'inward' and will generate currents in the coil in the same direction as was the input current. If the field were expanding out, current will be in one direction, and that field collapsing inward will generate currents in the other direction.

Using the sim with the circuit that comes up as default, change the resistor values to very small and add a diode across the switch.  The cap can be made very small so that in real world circuit there isnt the big inrush to the cap from the input, which seems to be quite a bit of measured power in that instant.  Now when you turn on the switch, the cap charges, naturally due to the connections of the circuit, and the inductor starts to build its field. When you release the switch, the field collapses and charges the cap till the field is completely diminished, then the cap reverses the current through the coil and will send back most all of the input spent, back to the input.

You can slow down the sim to watch.  Like say if we did the same to a pulse motor coil, this simple quick reversal with the cap helps some in getting the input to the coil back to the dc source without complicating things to do so. Its like letting the lc go for 1 cycle, then back into the input.

Mags

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 10, 2017, 12:20:12 AM
@Tinman,

Current reverses direction and travels in the same direction at the same time like the 60 Hz A.C. current in our overhead transmission lines; Like boarding a bus and moving toward the rear while the bus is accelerating forward. It may appear to a stationary observer that the bus passenger is standing still.


I dont know if that bus analogy works unless the power towers and high tension lines were on the move. ???

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 10, 2017, 12:44:02 AM

Are you saying that there is a delay in a cap discharge, due to the nature of the cap itself, or due to the impedance of the discharging device?

If we were to make a home made cap with foil, wax paper and say a straight copper wire to make end connections for each plate, which would be the better method of winding it? With the plate connection wires both starting at the beginning of the rolling, or 1 wire for the bottom plate at the beginning and the top plate wire at the end of the roll, and say its a 100 turns, would there be a difference in how the cap works in these 2 cases? Would one have more induction issues than the other?

Mags


@Mags,


I don't want to compound the problem too much. I explained that my intention was to imply that the curves are non chiral and symmetrical. I also explained that there's an RC formula for the time that involves a resistor. Now, I don't want to be accused of trying to weasel out of a pickle, but if the capacitor is discharged through a high value resistor, wouldn't it take some additional time for the resistor to begin to pass the current? It would depend on which side of the resistor you measured the discharge from right?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 10, 2017, 01:09:57 AM
Look at the graph he posted, in "support" of that claim.

Where, on that graph, is the maximum rate of charge? Where, on that graph, is the maximum rate of discharge?


@Tinselkoala,


The maximum discharge is between 100% and 63% of the charge, the maximum charge level is between 0% and 37%, then it begins too slow down to 63% where the time frame elongates again to match the 37% level of the discharge. Everyone knows it takes longer to charge a capacitor after it's 63% full then at the beginning and conversely, it takes longer to discharge the remaining 37% as it empties out. We have an inverse but symmetrical curve. Got it?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 10, 2017, 01:21:25 AM
@Tinselkola,


You stated that a vertical discharge curve was impossible. What about Tesla's "Spark Gap Generator" discharge?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 10, 2017, 01:49:50 AM
@Tinselkoala,


Times up! The spark discharge is at the speed of light, and the graph line is on the perpendicular. Your turn to admit your wrong!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 10, 2017, 02:33:22 AM

@Mags,


I don't want to compound the problem too much. I explained that my intention was to imply that the curves are non chiral and symmetrical. I also explained that there's an RC formula for the time that involves a resistor. Now, I don't want to be accused of trying to weasel out of a pickle, but if the capacitor is discharged through a high value resistor, wouldn't it take some additional time for the resistor to begin to pass the current? It would depend on which side of the resistor you measured the discharge from right?


If the resistor were absent of induction, the discharge from the cap through the resistor would begin delivering max current instantly, max current determined by V/R. The resistance determines the time of complete discharge, more resistance, longer time to 0V. If we shrink from left to right the time chart of the discharge through a very high resistance compared to the short time it would take through a very low resistance, the curve should look the same, with the bulk of the charge diminished more quickly closer to the beginning of the discharge and the rate of discharge gets smaller the closer the cap reaches 0v.

If there is some sort of delay, what is causing the delay you express?

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 10, 2017, 02:36:06 AM

If the resistor were absent of induction, the discharge from the cap through the resistor would begin delivering max current instantly, max current determined by V/R. The resistance determines the time of complete discharge, more resistance, longer time to 0V. If we shrink from left to right the time chart of the discharge through a very high resistance compared to the short time it would take through a very low resistance, the curve should look the same, with the bulk of the charge diminished more quickly closer to the beginning of the discharge and the rate of discharge gets smaller the closer the cap reaches 0v.

If there is some sort of delay, what is causing the delay you express?

Mags

@Mags,

Eddy hysteresis. Worse in the bottle neck! I'm talking about the water flow through the bottle neck there, not the capacitor discharge. All comparisons are not exactly the same as the real thing.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 10, 2017, 03:19:11 AM

@Tinselkoala,


The maximum discharge is between 100% and 63% of the charge, the maximum charge level is between 0% and 37%, then it begins too slow down to 63% where the time frame elongates again to match the 37% level of the discharge. Everyone knows it takes longer to charge a capacitor after it's 63% full then at the beginning and conversely, it takes longer to discharge the remaining 37% as it empties out. We have an inverse but symmetrical curve. Got it?

Still trying to weasel out of your pickle, I see. What does the word "RATE" mean to you? How about "ASYMPTOTE"?

Clearly, the maximum charge "LEVEL" is also right at the beginning of the discharge, and the minimum charge "LEVEL" is at the very end.

GOT IT?

Yes, you have inverse and symmetrical curves. And these curves clearly show that the maximum charge RATE and the minimum charge LEVEL occur at the beginning of the charge, and the maximum discharge RATE and the maximum charge LEVEL occur at the beginning of the discharge. Not at the 33 or 67 percent charge levels.

But need I remind you once again what you actually said in your original claim?

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 10, 2017, 03:24:32 AM
@Tinselkoala,


Times up! The spark discharge is at the speed of light, and the graph line is on the perpendicular. Your turn to admit your wrong!

Nope. The spark discharge is not "zero resistance" nor is it at the speed of light, the speed of light is not infinite, and a perpendicular or rather vertical line on any quantity-time graph means that the quantity changes _instantly_, that is with zero time passing. And this does not occur in any real system, especially not capacitor discharge.

And it's "you're" not "your", as in "You're wrong yet again synchro." 
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 10, 2017, 03:27:10 AM
@Mags,

Eddy hysteresis. Worse in the bottle neck! I'm talking about the water flow through the bottle neck there, not the capacitor discharge. All comparisons are not exactly the same as the real thing.

Now you have completely stopped making any sense at all.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 10, 2017, 03:33:46 AM

If the resistor were absent of induction, the discharge from the cap through the resistor would begin delivering max current instantly, max current determined by V/R. The resistance determines the time of complete discharge, more resistance, longer time to 0V. If we shrink from left to right the time chart of the discharge through a very high resistance compared to the short time it would take through a very low resistance, the curve should look the same, with the bulk of the charge diminished more quickly closer to the beginning of the discharge and the rate of discharge gets smaller the closer the cap reaches 0v.

If there is some sort of delay, what is causing the delay you express?

Mags

You are exactly right. And synchro's "delay" is the result of his not understanding what he is talking about. It may be possible to arrange inductances and resistances to give some maximum rate of charge-discharge at some point other than the beginning of the cycles, but that is not what synchro claimed. His claim is very clear in his own words and ever since then he has been trying to weasel out of admitting he was wrong, by constructing strawmen and moving goalposts.

If he thinks he can demonstrate otherwise by arranging some particular RCL circuit and measuring it on a scope ... let him do it. But it won't correspond to what he said in the beginning about _capacitors_.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 10, 2017, 04:42:52 AM
I mean seriously. This isn't exactly Rocket Science.

Or maybe it is.     :P


Below see Charge-Discharge curves of a 10 uF electrolytic capacitor charging to and discharging from approx. 5 volts. First scopeshot is with no resistor, second scopeshot is with 100R resistor, third scopeshot is with 1k resistor.  Where is the "bottleneck"? Where are the points of fastest charge rate, fastest discharge rate in each case?

(Disregard the HW frequency counter, it is off for some reason. The first shot is at 200 Hz, second is at about 60 Hz, the third shot is at 10 Hz.)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 10, 2017, 05:03:16 AM
Wow, I see they all look the same but the time base has changed.

Somebody told me that they are exponential functions, but the base is a special number.  Like it's not say a base of 10 like 10^x.  (10 to the power of x).  The base is this number "e" also known as Euler's number.

"e" = 2.7182818284590452353602874713527...

It's an irrational number and they have calculated it out to over a trillion digits.

The scope shots show a voltage waveform as an exponential function.  The slope of the voltage waveform is actually the current because we are looking at the voltage across a capacitor.  The current waveform is an exponential function also.  The slope of the current waveform is also an exponential function.  And the slope of that function is also an exponential function.  And the slope of the new function is also an exponential function.  In fact, it goes on forever.

It's a brain buster.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Magluvin on April 10, 2017, 06:09:50 AM
I mean seriously. This isn't exactly Rocket Science.

Or maybe it is.     :P


Below see Charge-Discharge curves of a 10 uF electrolytic capacitor charging to and discharging from approx. 5 volts. First scopeshot is with no resistor, second scopeshot is with 100R resistor, third scopeshot is with 1k resistor.  Where is the "bottleneck"? Where are the points of fastest charge rate, fastest discharge rate in each case?

(Disregard the HW frequency counter, it is off for some reason. The first shot is at 200 Hz, second is at about 60 Hz, the third shot is at 10 Hz.)

Maybe for the sake of argument can you zoom in on the line of discharge.  At some point it may look like a flat line due to time scale, and maybe at that point a csr would be needed to see actual current if voltage drop is not visible.

Just thinkin

Mags
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 10, 2017, 10:59:18 AM
@Tinman,



Quote
Which way does current flow in a Ruhmkopff Secondary Coil when the current's interrupted in the primary

Are you talking about the ignition coil?-which was not invented by Ruhmkopff,but by Nicholas Callan in 1836.

First off,from what i have read,it seems as though we are talking about interrupting the current flow through a single coil/inductor,in which case,the voltage will invert across the coil/inductoor,but the current will continue to flow in the same direction.
If you are talking about an ignition coil,then the same applies with the secondary-only the end of the secondary is joined to the start of the primary-->remember,with an ignition coil,where points were used,it was the ground side of the primary that was switched via the points,and not the positive side of the primary. The end of the secondary was joined to the start of the primary(the positive end),and then the start of the secondary became the end in which the current flowed from,as that would be sent to the positive side of the spark plugs via the distributor.
So the ground(negative)was your engine block,and the sparkplug leads were your positive side.
So,as you can see,the current still flowed in the same direction through the secondary, when the points opened,and broke the current flow into the primary.

Quote
and can you define "Negative Current"?

The flow of current has no polarity-it has direction.
Voltage has polarity.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 10, 2017, 11:16:30 AM
 author=Zephir link=topic=17186.msg503665#msg503665


Quote
Hi @Tinman,  I know that overunity people are all liberals by their very nature - but as a moderator you should move all off-topic comments into their corresponding threads - not to feed them with their discussion in their original thread

You will find that nearly all threads here on OU.com,have !off topic!! conversation within them.
There is no way i have the time to be moving all off topic comments into other threads.
Some off topic conversations lead to people being taught things they never new-like the current flow through a coil,when the source current is interrupted.

Quote
The question of current after interruption of coil is theoretical question of CLASSICAL physics.

And there you go-a classic example.
It is not theoretical at all--it is fact,that the current will continue to flow in the same direction through the coil,when the source current is interrupted/disconnected .

Quote
The overunity forums are losing their original drive and they get flooded with ignorant pathoskeptics

Who are these !pathoskeptics! you speak of?-->those that correct others mistakes perhaps?.

Quote
today most of progress actually comes from private researchers and the classical overunity forums are just watching this development in silent surprise.

Could you point us in the direction of one of these !private! researchers that have achieved OU ?.

Quote
This is because the free hoarded community is maybe creative and inventive, but it remains undisciplined and lazy enough for implementation of its own ideas. What I'm missing here is streamlined brainstorming of experts leading to proposal and testing of particular circuits. The clueless senior twaddling is indeed mentally comfortable - but it leads nowhere.

There are many here that will build and test any circuit,that has a claim of OU behind it-including myself.
But what we have found is,when those that replicate claimed OU circuits,and are skilled in the art of EE and accurate measurement protocols,come up with under unity results,the claimant of the OU device simply say that we dont know what were doing-or we made errors in measurements.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: evostars on April 10, 2017, 11:35:25 AM
For those, who want to ask me a question, Personal message me. Dont do it via these posts. It will drown, and i won't see/read it.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 10, 2017, 11:42:49 AM
Quote
Who are these !pathoskeptics! you speak of?-->those that correct others mistakes perhaps?

The pathoskeptic is everyone who for example says, that overunity doesn't exist, because he never observed it during his tinkering (like @TinselKoala is saying) or that overunity doesn't exist, because it would be utilized already and awarded with Nobel prizes (@MileHigh and others). Such a nonsenses shouldn't be tolerated here...

From perspective of mainstream physicists whole the overunity subject is also mistake and they oppose it wildly, so that the usage of "mistake" word is subjective trolling too.
Once the bifilar coil exhibits self-capacitance, then its current after interruption may evolve differently, because it can behave like the capacitor too.
The idealized assumptions of mainstream physics trolls therefore will not apply here and only experiments can determine, what we will observe there.

Quote
There is no way i have the time to be moving all off topic comments into other threads

My question is, if it's possible to create discussion thread, where I could delete/hide all off-topic and trolls posts (including those of other moderators) according to my own opinion and to keep the subject coherent in this way?
You can set up this thread (http://overunity.com/15124/simplest-theory-of-overunity-devices-possible) in this way for example instead of creating a solely new one.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 10, 2017, 12:12:32 PM
You need to get your facts straight, Zephir, if you are going to be mentioning me or MH in your posts.

And you need to provide some evidence of your own for the outrageous claims you continue to make, while you dodge and weave without admitting the times you have been soundly refuted. You have _never_ posted a single demonstration or experiment of your own... and I know why: You cannot.

Explain the LED flashes in my Coil Current Demonstration (2) if you believe that current reverses when the power to a coil is interrupted. Why are flyback diodes often placed across inductors that are pulsed, and in which direction does the current flow through those diodes? How many times has this challenge been made to you now, without any response?  You know by now that you are wrong and that is why you avoid trying to answer. Admit it!


Quote
where I could delete/hide all off-topic and trolls posts (including those of other moderators) according to my own opinion

But didn't you say that this wasn't the place for opinions? Make up your hypocritical mind, why don't you?  If you want to be the censor, move to some other forum, like EF. I'm sure we will be happy to see you force your "opinions" on others over there.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 10, 2017, 12:30:10 PM
Nope. The spark discharge is not "zero resistance" nor is it at the speed of light, the speed of light is not infinite, and a perpendicular or rather vertical line on any quantity-time graph means that the quantity changes _instantly_, that is with zero time passing. And this does not occur in any real system, especially not capacitor discharge.

And it's "you're" not "your", as in "You're wrong yet again synchro."


@Tinselkoala,


The non-perpendicularity you're speaking of would require an electron microscope to visualize on a graph. The percentage of slope would be infinitesimal and impossible to ascertain with the naked eye, because the graph line would require some degree of thickness. What about Tinman's last comment about the imaginary existence of negative current, shared by Citfa, Verpies, Miilehigh and evidently you? You've conveniently dodged this issue as less important throughout the course of this thread; You and Mags act like the Jug comparison was some kind of unforgivable sacrilege. A poor comparison is not being impudently "dead wrong" like you.


What about the preposterous notion just posted again by Tinman that current can't reverse polarity, only voltage?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 10, 2017, 12:42:30 PM
Quote
And you need to provide some evidence of your own for the outrageous claims you continue to make

I already provided them (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq_qGHzYorAsR4sYi3m50sA) and you dismissed them without some evidence, so I've no reason/motivation to continue in discussion with you. The only way how to deal with pathoskeptics, who dismiss the evidence is to delete them - it makes the discussion way more useful for people, who did come at this forum to learn and explore new things. You should get banned already before years - you've many other forums where to go. You're systematically poisoning whole the overunity community (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?board=110.0) - not just this particular forum.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Acca on April 10, 2017, 12:48:33 PM
 I love this topic as it's soo..  ??? on topic  ...
 (http://exopolitics.org/secret-presidential-memo-anti-aging-free-energy/)

http://exopolitics.org/secret-presidential-memo-anti-aging-free-energy/ (http://exopolitics.org/secret-presidential-memo-anti-aging-free-energy/)

Acca...
 (http://exopolitics.org/secret-presidential-memo-anti-aging-free-energy/)

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Acca on April 10, 2017, 12:53:08 PM
It's exactly why I hate to write any more here,  as it's get sh*t on ..

Acca.

Sooo Long...
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 10, 2017, 12:54:14 PM
@Acca Nope, the topic of this thread is different and it's dedicated for those, who want to understand the behavior of bifilar coil.
Your post belongs here (http://overunity.com/17191/government-suppression-of-free-energy/45/#.WOtkJZeLVyA) and we already discussed it there.
If you want to have on-topic relevant discussions here,  you should also think of it, once you're posting here.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 10, 2017, 01:03:09 PM
 author=Zephir link=topic=17186.msg503736#msg503736 date=1491817369]



Quote
The pathoskeptic is everyone who for example says, that overunity doesn't exist, because he never observed it during his tinkering (like @TinselKoala is saying) or that overunity doesn't exist, because it would be utilized already and awarded with Nobel prizes (@MileHigh and others). Such a nonsenses shouldn't be tolerated here...

Well first off,i dont believe TK thinks OU can never be found,but more so that is has not been achieved yet,
Second--MileHigh is correct,in that if anyone was to come up with an OU device,then they most certainly would be up for a Nobel prize-along with the keys to the world.

Quote
From perspective of mainstream physicists whole the overunity subject is also mistake and they oppose it wildly, so that the usage of "mistake" word is subjective trolling too.

I dont think mainstream science has anything to offer,in the way of OU devices.
I believe that such devices are hidden away from mainstream science, and the public.

Quote
Once the bifilar coil exhibits self-capacitance, then its current after interruption may evolve differently, because it can behave like the capacitor too.

Although all inductors/coils have some self capacitance,the value of that capacitance is far to small to overcome the inductance values of said coil,and so,would never overcome the current flow had,when the source current is disrupted.

Quote
The idealized assumptions of mainstream physics trolls therefore will not apply here and only experiments can determine, what we will observe there.

I see that with just 220 odd posts,you must be relatively new here.
I can assure you that those here you think are trolls,are the very same people that have carried out thousands of experiments on the very subject at hand.

Can you be clear on what you believe this bifilar coil will achieve,and exactly what kind of bifilar coil are you referring to?.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 10, 2017, 01:23:55 PM
Quote
I don't think mainstream science has anything to offer, in the way of OU devices. I believe that such devices are hidden away from mainstream science, and the public.

The scientists are payed for being informed about all areas of their expertise. They actually know about overunity research very well, I've multiple evidence for it. But they decided to ignore and deny it actively, as it contradicts their own philosophy and religion system. The attitude of TinselKoala may serve as an example: he knows about overunity perfectly, yet he still denies it. The attitude toward overunity is therefore NOT matter of expertise at all. The censorship and dismissal of overunity findings is primarily the matter of public trolls like him, not some secret governmental agents.

Quote
I can assure you that those here you think are trolls,are the very same people that have carried out thousands of experiments on the very subject at hand.

The number of experiments doesn't matter, once you're ignorant, who doesn't believe in subject and who therefore doesn't know where to look for it. The replication of overunity finding is actually relatively simple - but you should remain focused to subject, instead of its denial and dismissal.

Quote
Although all inductors/coils have some self capacitance, the value of that capacitance is far to small to overcome the inductance values of said coil

This is a matter of geometry only. The capacitance between the two conductors in a bifilar winding (neglecting turn-to-turn effects in a coil) is the same whether the bifilar pair is wound in a coil or in a long straight line. The capacitance per unit length is C = πε0/[cosh-1(D/2R)], where D is the center-to-center spacing of the two round conductors, each of radius R. It could be simplified (Medhurst) to formula C = 0.46 * D (which is why the self-resonanating Kapagen coils are wound of copper pipes empirically).  Inductance of coil can be calculated for example here (http://). The signal velocity in an air-filled transmission line is c = 1/sqrt(LC), and it's impedance is Z = sqrt(L/C).

Quote
if anyone was to come up with an OU device,then they most certainly would be up for a Nobel prize-along with the keys to the world

You would die way before its first replication, not to say acceptation. The verification of heliocentric model has been delayed by 160 years, the replication of overunity in electrical circuit has been delayed 145 years (Cook 1871 (https://www.google.com/patents/US119825)), cold fusion finding 90 years (Panneth/Petters 1926 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cber.19260590860/abstract)), Woodward drive (http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00665932) 26 years, EMDrive (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=36313.0;attach=809343) 18 years and room superconductivity (http://www.seminarsonly.com/electrical & electronics/Ultraconductors.php) finding by 45 years (Grigorov 1984).

Why the hell are you believing, you would be recognized and celebrated faster? The scientific ignorance has no limits and its spans multiple centuries.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 10, 2017, 01:44:49 PM
For those having trouble with the current flow through an inductor,when the source current is interrupted,i have put together a very simple circuit,so as you can check your self.

As you can see by the way the LED 2 is orientated,current flow must remain in the same direction in order for it to remain lit during the off time of the FG(source current).
LED 1 will only be lit during the 50% on time of the FG(The source current)

The red arrows show the current path and direction during the on time of the source current,and the blue arrows show the current path and direction during the off time of the source current.

Hope this helps.

Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 10, 2017, 01:51:11 PM
This poor guy is never gonna get his thread back....

he also has a quieter topic here
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/20714-magnetic-field-bifilar-pancake-coil.html

@ Zephir
you carpet bomb the OU claims in the house of OU ,saying we close our eyes??

and our science friends too?? [calling them LIARS and Hiders of OU ??

PLEASE JUST ONE
""SEEING OU IS EASY"" experiment

PLEASE ??
atleast the tenth request...

Also sort of on topic claim from Allen[synchro ]

over here
http://overunity.com/17217/investigating-the-claims-of-member-synchro-1/msg503737/#new
there is a 48 magnet video and some nail video's of Allen's
he says there is an anomaly  being shown with the magnet vid

very very low input to do much work
as some here know I ran demolition jobs in NYC and did see many industrial magnets and the HUGE
support power required for them to run

many would love to see this "if real"
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 10, 2017, 02:12:33 PM
Quote
you carpet bomb the OU claims in the house of OU ,saying we close our eyes?

Not we - some people of us do it - and they even trying to "cover" the eyes of their peers (TinselKoala, MileHigh, Ramset  and another trolls).

Quote
and our science friends too?? - calling them LIARS and Hiders of OU??

Which "science friends" do you have on mind? The liars and hiders aren't OUR friends in general.

Quote
""SEEING OU IS EASY"" experiment

I already linked them also many times: small scale (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5fsiwmkqdA), larger scale (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7jJQiytd-w), largest scale (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmdKVecQhXs)...
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 10, 2017, 02:26:47 PM
Zephir
Your a new Kid here[and acting more like a Child as time goes by
why do you think there is an OU forum here?

yes your carpet bomb of posts is one reason

but now you call us liars and show no evidence?

You tube videos is your evidence ??

here

http://overunity.com/12736/kapanadze-cousin-dally-free-energy/msg503680/#msg503680


also to note
a new moderated thread will be started for the Nelson circuit here

Zephir
sad you wouldn't actually work here...
just post things we all have seen a thousand times at the OU forum

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 10, 2017, 02:28:03 PM
Quote evostars at EF

"That other forum" is clearly not properly moderated. After alot of offtopc shouting and cursing, the moderator himself has joined the offtopic discussion.

As i told you in my reply PM to you--i cannot/will not be some form of dictator,and decide what is and is not allowed on a thread-other than foul language.

This thread is about inductors/coil's,and so,anything relating to any type of inductor/coil,should be able to be discussed without being censored-->and current flow direction through an inductor,when the source current is interrupted, is a vital point to any experimenter.

So,just because things dont go your way,and things are not censored/modderated  to !your! liking,dont go spitting the dummy,and plaster crap all over other forums.

If this forum is so bad,then just leave--it's that simple.

BTW,i watched your below video,and i liked what i saw--i even gave you a thumbs up.
Infact,i am going to wind another bifilar pancake coil,and do some more experimenting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhY27Zoor-Q&feature=youtu.be

I wish to see if i raise the frequency high enough,whether or not the current flow will actually reverse,due to self capacitance.

Now im off to watch your other video's.


Brad

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 10, 2017, 02:36:20 PM
Quote
i am going to wind another bifilar pancake coil,and do some more experimenting.
The winding of bifilar coil will not help you without theory - you should read and know, how to use it.
Otherwise you'll get into position of tribesmen, who believe they will fly if they construct plane from bamboo.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 10, 2017, 02:39:09 PM
@Tinselkoala,

You're showing us your over magnified view of the Moby "Spark Gap Slope" while at the same time offering us a blindfold view of your nothing "Negative Current"; These outrages are coupled with your routine compulsive vitriolic shamelessness! Have you no sense of common decency?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 10, 2017, 02:44:21 PM
The winding of bifilar coil will not help you without theory - you should read and know, how to use it.
Otherwise you'll get into position of tribesmen, who believe they will fly if they construct plane from bamboo.

Perhaps you should go check out my youtube chanel,and then you will know that this tribesman needs no plane to fly  :D.

Some errors in your video.
1-The magnetic field will never be stable around your coil,until such time as the current flowing through it is continuous and of a stable value.

2- The magnetic field around your coil,will be the same as that found around a donut,or speaker magnet. At the center of your coil,the north field will pass through the center hole,and merge with the south field--it will not take a long trip around the outside of the coil,like you explained in your video.

Below is a pic of how your field will be around your pancake coil.

Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 10, 2017, 02:49:33 PM
Quote
Some errors in your video. The magnetic field will never be stable around your coil,until such time as the current flowing through it is continuous and of a stable value. The magnetic field around your coil,will be the same as that found around a donut,or speaker magnet. The north will pass through the center hole,and merge with the south field--it will not take a long trip around the outside of the coil,like you explained in your video.

I dunno, which video are you talking about. Of course Infinity SAV Team device generates overunity from variable, i.e. unstable magnetic field around bifilar coils.
What are you talking about long trip of north? I don't travel into Arctic anywhere... The field about coils in Infinity SAV videos is anapolar.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 10, 2017, 02:49:52 PM
@Tinselkoala,

You're showing us your over magnified view of the Moby "Spark Gap Slope" while at the same time offering us a blindfold view of your nothing "Negative Current"; These outrages are coupled with your routine compulsive vitriolic shamelessness! Have you no sense of common decency?

Tell us all synchro--how dose current flow have a !negative! value?--or a positive one for that matter.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 10, 2017, 02:59:41 PM
. Of course Infinity SAV Team device generates overunity from variable, i.e. unstable magnetic field around bifilar coils.


Well i can see this is going to be hard  ::)

Quote
I dunno, which video are you talking about

How about the one i posted the link to--the only one i posted the link to.  ::)

Quote
What are you talking about long trip of north? I don't travel into Arctic anywhere... The field about coils in Infinity SAV videos is anapolar.

Enjoy-im out.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: tinman on April 10, 2017, 03:03:33 PM
I dunno, which video are you talking about. Of course Infinity SAV Team device generates overunity from variable, i.e. unstable magnetic field around bifilar coils.
.

The below is a hoax--can be easily replicated.


Brad
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 10, 2017, 03:06:25 PM
Quote
Well i can see this is going to be hard

If we want to have matter of facts forum, the moderators should give an examples - not to contribute to silly trolling.

Quote
The below is a hoax--can be easily replicated.

So why it wasn't? This is the same situation, like with cold fusion or room temperature superconductivity or antigravity:
everyone is immediately sure, these are all hoaxes - but where the experimental evidence is?

This is why I'm saying, this forum is flooded with patoskeptic trolls: no one is behaving normally here...
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 10, 2017, 03:25:46 PM
No the Zephir doesn't post his own work for investigation
he is a salesman for you tube hits and ???

Zephir ,you mixed up a reply to the thread founder here evostars [remember where you are ???

you are running all over the forum dropping ....errr .... bits of wisdom
copy paste and you tube links
you are banning ,firing accusing of lies etc etc etc

a very old act here
next time you come back ,[please work on the act while your gone]

please try to be more respectful of threads and topics here ,and maybe not so busy with
"you tube evidence" and copy paste 5 second google search stuff

just one experiment ?????????
your quote
""OU is easy"

Please no you tube evidence that OU is easy !!
would take 25 seconds of you tube searches to show 100000's of that phony stuff

an actual experiment ??
before you leave ??

just one ??

Last call ???
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 10, 2017, 03:44:02 PM
Two views through a telescope: One microscopic view of an invisible "Spark Gap Discharge Slope" from one end, and an over magnified view of a "Jovian Rat" misrepresenting a resistor discharge curve from the other.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 10, 2017, 03:58:46 PM
Quote
an actual experiment, before you leave, just one

You already got three links - or not? How the situation would change for you, if you would get four ones?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 10, 2017, 05:49:21 PM
I see that Evostars has retreated to EF and is now nestled in with some supporters.  This is good for him because chances are whatever he chooses to disbelieve or ignore will be supported by people in the thread.  The wagons have been circled to protect them against the Arrows of Knowledge.  (Anybody remember the LEDs of Doom?)

So this is an allegorical posting about Thunderf00t and the Solar Freaking Roadways.  I am assuming that many of you know about the Solar Freaking Roadways.  Almost four million bucks and almost nothing to show for it!

I took the time to arrange all of Thunderf00t's clips in chronological order for your viewing pleasure.  Watch the Arrows of Knowledge slice though the Solar Freaking Roadways.  A wise man or woman after watching this might want to launch the Arrows of Knowledge at the nearly useless bifilar freaking pancake coil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H901KdXgHs4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3ftXinT4jI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI8c2f8r0UU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocV-RnVQdcs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeK5GI6Un8Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mzzz5DdzyWY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIFNzCUo028
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pIfo1Dynjg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P90Y71ThfQs

There is a LOT to be learned from Thunderf00t if you aren't aware of his YouTube channel.  The same critical thinking skills and respect for the application of knowledge and rational analysis can be applied to the bifilar freaking pancake coil or any other subject matter.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 10, 2017, 07:37:31 PM
No the Zephir doesn't post his own work for investigation
he is a salesman for you tube hits and ???

Zephir ,you mixed up a reply to the thread founder here evostars [remember where you are ???

you are running all over the forum dropping ....errr .... bits of wisdom
copy paste and you tube links
you are banning ,firing accusing of lies etc etc etc

a very old act here
next time you come back ,[please work on the act while your gone]

please try to be more respectful of threads and topics here ,and maybe not so busy with
"you tube evidence" and copy paste 5 second google search stuff

just one experiment ??? ??? ???
your quote
""OU is easy"

Please no you tube evidence that OU is easy !!
would take 25 seconds of you tube searches to show 100000's of that phony stuff

an actual experiment ??
before you leave ??

just one ??

Last call ???

Hey Chet,

I have figured out the true identity of Zephir.  He is Bro Mikey from EF.  He is using exactly the same tactics Bro Mikey loves to use.  He attacks those that dare to ask real questions because he doesn't have the technical knowledge to carry on a real discussion.  He posts over and over again fake videos and claim them to be real even after most of them have already been proven fake.  He presents no real evidence that he himself has actually done any true research.  If he is not Bro Mikey then he must be his twin brother because both of them act identical on these two forums.  If anyone doubts this just go to EF and read some of the junk Bro Mikey posts and compare it to Zephir's posts.  If you didn't look at the name you would not be able to tell which one wrote which post.  I guess it doesn't matter which name he uses since it is obvious both names are the same person.

Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 10, 2017, 07:50:10 PM
Not we - some people of us do it - and they even trying to "cover" the eyes of their peers (TinselKoala, MileHigh, Ramset  and another trolls).

Which "science friends" do you have on mind? The liars and hiders aren't OUR friends in general.

I already linked them also many times: small scale (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5fsiwmkqdA), larger scale (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7jJQiytd-w), largest scale (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmdKVecQhXs)...

You are asked to provide evidence of your own for your outrageous claims, and you link once again to "Infinity SAV Team", a bunch of fakers and fraudsters angling for investors and ad money? That says more about YOU than it says about any "free energy" or overunity.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 10, 2017, 07:58:08 PM
Well
I have no bad history with bro Mikey [he may have punched me a few times]

It doesn't really matter who he is [Zephir] actually posts some very interesting things
sort of like the latest hits of OU past and present.

my problem with Zephir is he is calling Us liars and frauds...
this is top shelf TOS violation here ,for an anonymous man to come here hiding behind the "Zephir"
and call me a Liar and cheat [most posting here have been called this  too

one thing is certain ...
very little manliness there...
like a little Kid throwing stones at strangers from a hiding place...

and still no experiments ..
just You tube Proof...we are supposed to figure out from back engineered you tube ?
this quote from Zephir OU is easy


enuff time wasted here...


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 10, 2017, 08:00:08 PM
Two views through a telescope: One microscopic view of an invisible "Spark Gap Discharge Slope" from one end, and an over magnified view of a "Jovian Rat" misrepresenting a resistor discharge curve from the other.

Are you talking about me? Then once again you betray the fact that you will lie about and misrepresent the work of others, as well as misrepresenting your own "work". If you think you can refute me with checkable valid outside references, experiments or demonstrations of your own, go ahead and do it. It took me less than 15 minutes with a scope, function generator, capacitor and a couple of resistors to ONCE AGAIN demonstrate that you are wrong about your ridiculous contentions about capacitor charge-discharge RATES.

And what exactly is a "resistor discharge curve" ? Do resistors now store energy and release energy according to you?  Are you accusing me of faking a demonstration? When ANYONE with a scope, FG, resistors and capacitors -- and the actual knowledge to use them -- can repeat my demonstration and get exactly the same results? And the same is true for every other demonstration I have published: the details are publicly available and anyone with the kit can repeat them for themselves. 

You really are hilarious. I'm about to run out of ROFLs but you get another one anyway.   (when I run out, I'll have to start telling the Drop Bear to pay your comments a visit)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 10, 2017, 08:05:45 PM
Hey Chet,

I have figured out the true identity of Zephir.  He is Bro Mikey from EF.  He is using exactly the same tactics Bro Mikey loves to use.  He attacks those that dare to ask real questions because he doesn't have the technical knowledge to carry on a real discussion.  He posts over and over again fake videos and claim them to be real even after most of them have already been proven fake.  He presents no real evidence that he himself has actually done any true research.  If he is not Bro Mikey then he must be his twin brother because both of them act identical on these two forums.  If anyone doubts this just go to EF and read some of the junk Bro Mikey posts and compare it to Zephir's posts.  If you didn't look at the name you would not be able to tell which one wrote which post.  I guess it doesn't matter which name he uses since it is obvious both names are the same person.

Carroll

But but... where are the huge fonts and multicolored text?    ;D   
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 10, 2017, 08:18:34 PM
TinselKoala, MileHigh, ramset, citfta - like I've said: ignorant trolls... Welcome at my ignore list.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 10, 2017, 09:57:31 PM
A typical response from someone who makes outrageous claims that he cannot back up with actual evidence, when challenged to do so.

Coil current reversal when power is interrupted? Disproved by me and by TinMan and by hundreds of thousands of circuit designers who put flyback diodes across inductors, as well as by Faraday's Law of Induction. But Zephir still has not retracted his claim nor has he explained the LEDs lighting in TM's or my demonstrations, nor has he produced any experiment or demonstration of his own in an attempt to refute us.

Overunity is easy? And when Zephir is challenged to provide evidence, he posts links to Infinity SAV Team ! Why not Innova Tehno, or Veproject, or the Pakistani mo-gens, or even the guy who plugs his power strip into itself and then runs a lightbulb?  What is "easy" is to fool Zephir, apparently.

Falsely characterizing what I do and don't believe? Yes, please do put me on your Ignore List so you don't have to notice when you are soundly refuted over and over again when you make your false claims.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 10, 2017, 10:14:31 PM
A typical response from someone who makes outrageous claims that he cannot back up with actual evidence, when challenged to do so.

Coil current reversal when power is interrupted? Disproved by me and by TinMan and by hundreds of thousands of circuit designers who put flyback diodes across inductors, as well as by Faraday's Law of Induction. But Zephir still has not retracted his claim nor has he explained the LEDs lighting in TM's or my demonstrations, nor has he produced any experiment or demonstration of his own in an attempt to refute us.

Overunity is easy? And when Zephir is challenged to provide evidence, he posts links to Infinity SAV Team ! Why not Innova Tehno, or Veproject, or the Pakistani mo-gens, or even the guy who plugs his power strip into itself and then runs a lightbulb?  What is "easy" is to fool Zephir, apparently.

Falsely characterizing what I do and don't believe? Yes, please do put me on your Ignore List so you don't have to notice when you are soundly refuted over and over again when you make your false claims.

@Tinselkoala,

You charlatans had me flummoxed with your cute double entendre a year and a half ago. I retreated to Energetic Forum as Allen Burgess and initiated a thread entitled "Flyback Current Reversal". We heard from lawrence Tsung who cleared the entire matter up with the term "Negative Current. It's high time you knocked the crap off. Everyone can find a minus sign on every analog amp meter. Negative current can travel in the same direction as positive current. Denying the existence of "Negative Current" as Citfa doe's (Negative Dose) is just a cheap con trick. When are you gonna grow up?   

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: starcruiser on April 10, 2017, 10:26:49 PM

Wrong again! All real wires have resistance and ALL REAL CAPACITORS do too. Look up "ESR" wrt capacitors. For this claim of yours to be true you would have to have a capacitor with zero resistance and a connection with zero resistance, both impossible in reality, and the current on charge and discharge would be _infinite_, taking no time, which is what a vertical line means. Infinite slope! A change in charge over +no change in time+ !!!! Ridiculous on the face of it, as everyone _actually_ knows.
 
Good luck with that.

Anyone with a scope and the wit to use it can prove you wrong in fifteen minutes.

You want to keep moving goalposts and constructing your strawman arguments instead of admitting that you were wrong, go ahead. You'll wind up here just like you wound up at EF: nobody pays attention to you since they all know that you are full of yourself, you misrepresent and misunderstand and prevaricate, and you will never admit that you are wrong.



TK,

1st TC in either which is approx 63% of the capacitors charging or discharging capacity, it is fast to start and slows in either case (charge or discharge) the current curve is kind of opposite though.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 10, 2017, 11:08:59 PM
Dr. Tsung went further and stated that "Negative Current" was the pathway to overunity. Everyone knows that TK's click of frauds are just paid sock puppets for the fossil fuel lobby.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: MileHigh on April 10, 2017, 11:34:53 PM
Dr. Tsung went further and stated that "Negative Current" was the pathway to overunity. Everyone knows that TK's click of frauds are just paid sock puppets for the fossil fuel lobby.

LOL   In Kirchhoff's Current Law all currents entering a node in a circuit must sum to zero.  The convention is that currents entering a node are denoted as positive currents and currents exiting a node are denoted as negative currents.  "Positive" or "negative" merely denote the direction of the current flow.  There is no such thing as "negative current" in the way I suspect some people might be thinking.

“The algebraic sum of all currents entering and exiting a node must equal zero”

"That is, if we assign a mathematical sign (polarity) to each current, denoting whether they enter (+) or exit (-) a node, we can add them together to arrive at a total of zero, guaranteed."

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/direct-current/chpt-6/kirchhoffs-current-law-kcl/

So all of the fussing and flustering and fussbudgeting and the general spreading around of misery and drama and unhappiness and insults about this subject can now stop.

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 10, 2017, 11:58:48 PM
LOL   In Kirchhoff's Current Law all currents entering a node in a circuit must sum to zero.  The convention is that currents entering a node are denoted as positive currents and currents exiting a node are denoted as negative currents.  "Positive" or "negative" merely denote the direction of the current flow.  There is no such thing as "negative current" in the way I suspect some people might be thinking.

“The algebraic sum of all currents entering and exiting a node must equal zero”

"That is, if we assign a mathematical sign (polarity) to each current, denoting whether they enter (+) or exit (-) a node, we can add them together to arrive at a total of zero, guaranteed."

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/direct-current/chpt-6/kirchhoffs-current-law-kcl/

So all of the fussing and flustering and fussbudgeting and the general spreading around of misery and drama and unhappiness and insults about this subject can now stop.

@Milehigh,

Define "Alternating Current".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 12:09:34 AM
Here's some help for Dr. Weizsacker:

"Either as a voltage switching polarity or as a current switching direction back and forth, this “kind” of electricity is known as Alternating Current (AC)".

Milehigh states AC current destroys itself and factors out to zero! Here it is:

"In Kirchhoff's Current Law all currents entering a node in a circuit must sum to zero".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 11, 2017, 12:24:53 AM
Bro Mikey II and Allen B. are so mixed up in their thinking they believe they can discover something new when they obviously don't understand what has already been well established.  Most of these guys like them want to portray Tesla as some great genius who magically created all his wonderful inventions.  Tesla was a true genius.  There is no doubt about that.  What they keep ignoring was that Tesla had a very strong electrical education before he went on to take it farther.  I have studied Tesla for over 50 years and he many times has mentioned inventors before him that learned something and then he applied it in a different way.  He did not ignore the research and education he had gotten.  He built on that.  You can try to put down those of us that have strong electronic backgrounds all you want but in the end it will be someone like us that will find the secret to OU if it exists.

OU, if possible will be found by those that clearly know what they doing and have direction and insight into what they are doing.  It will not be found by someone blindly stumbling around in the dark that believes anything they see on DumbTube.  I know TK has spent countless hours checking out supposed OU circuits and machines.  I have also been doing the same thing for about 10 years now.  I don't think MileHigh believes OU is possible so we have agreed to respectfully disagree with no name calling or hard feelings.  I hope some day to be able to show him something that will change his mind about that.  In the mean time he is a good check for those of us that sometimes get over excited by a supposed new machine or circuit.  Most serious researchers don't have a problem with peer review.  Only those with a hidden agenda would balk at a peer review.

Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 12:44:18 AM
Bro Mikey II and Allen B. are so mixed up in their thinking they believe they can discover something new when they obviously don't understand what has already been well established.  Most of these guys like them want to portray Tesla as some great genius who magically created all his wonderful inventions.  Tesla was a true genius.  There is no doubt about that.  What they keep ignoring was that Tesla had a very strong electrical education before he went on to take it farther.  I have studied Tesla for over 50 years and he many times has mentioned inventors before him that learned something and then he applied it in a different way.  He did not ignore the research and education he had gotten.  He built on that.  You can try to put down those of us that have strong electronic backgrounds all you want but in the end it will be someone like us that will find the secret to OU if it exists.

OU, if possible will be found by those that clearly know what they doing and have direction and insight into what they are doing.  It will not be found by someone blindly stumbling around in the dark that believes anything they see on DumbTube.  I know TK has spent countless hours checking out supposed OU circuits and machines.  I have also been doing the same thing for about 10 years now.  I don't think MileHigh believes OU is possible so we have agreed to respectfully disagree with no name calling or hard feelings.  I hope some day to be able to show him something that will change his mind about that.  In the mean time he is a good check for those of us that sometimes get over excited by a supposed new machine or circuit.  Most serious researchers don't have a problem with peer review.  Only those with a hidden agenda would balk at a peer review.

Respectfully,
Carroll

Here's a quote from a personal message to me by Citfa dated July 16 2016:

"You are also still incorrect about the current reversal.  Just because you got someone else to agree with your misunderstanding about inductors does not change the facts of how they really work.  I am 70 years old and have worked in electronics as my career for over 50 years.  You are a beginner with a bad attitude who refuses to listen to those that try to help you".

I am not a beginner. I too am 70 years old. I was tutored by David T. Dinan, a graduate fellow at M.I.T. who invited me to tour a scarpyard in western New Jersey to view an old Tesla electro-magnet in 1962, when I was 15 years of age.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 11, 2017, 01:05:46 AM
Synchro
where's the scrap yard ?

western jersey ??

my old stomping grounds, shipped Thousands of tonnes to A western jersey scrap yard... one in particular?

Where was it ?

I'll be down that way quite a bit soon [for work]
will gladly ask around about that [and see some old friends too]

??

what do you remember about it?

who's iron?[drive unit

what made it so special ?






Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 01:11:52 AM
@Citfa,

You have pathologically denied that there's any such thing as "Current Reversal"; What do you make of this portion of the definition of alternating current? "AC current is switching direction back and forth".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 01:13:24 AM
Synchro
where's the scrap yard ?

western jersey ??

my old stomping grounds, shipped Thousands of tonnes to A western jersey scrap yard... one in particular?

Where was it ?

I'll be down that way quite a bit soon [for work]
will gladly ask around about that [and see some old friends too]

??

what do you remember about it?

who's iron?[drive unit

Too soon.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 01:34:21 AM
You see what's going on here folks; This Citfa guy spent his whole life studying electronics and never understood what alternating current is!

Tinselkoala never understood what self inductance is!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Zephir on April 11, 2017, 01:39:35 AM
They're all organized trolls, whose agenda is to disrupt every serious discussion of overunity.
They sh*t bricks once someone starts with real information about it.
Only dull laymen posts, textbooks trivia and silly conspiracy theories (chemtrails?!) which are ridiculing overunity topic are allowed here.
The whole purpose of this forum is to make overunity research untrustful in the eyes of random visitors, because opened censorship would be too conspicuous. This is how the disinfo is made these days.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 11, 2017, 02:10:32 AM
You see what's going on here folks; This Citfa guy spent his whole life studying electronics and never understood what alternating current is!

Tinselkoala never understood what self inductance is!

Yes it is very clear what is going on here.  You have been proven wrong by about 5 different people now with videos and scope shots and circuits that all prove current does not reverse during coil discharge.  So instead of admitting you were wrong you try to change the subject once again.  Alternating Current has absolutely nothing to do with coil discharge.  You just keep digging yourself into a deeper hole with your mistaken ideas.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 11, 2017, 02:14:39 AM
Zephir
Quote

The whole purpose of this forum is to make overunity research untrustful in the eyes of random visitors, because opened censorship would be too conspicuous. This is how the disinfo is made these days.
end quote

you have a problem with how Stefan runs his forum?


Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 11, 2017, 02:26:43 AM
I posted this a while back but I am going to post it again for the benefit (maybe) of the people that don't seem to like the idea of peer review.

I couple of years ago I put together a circuit that was showing more power out than in.  I was excited.  I shared it on a forum and Luc asked if he could replicate it.  I knew his reputation and of course said yes.  When he got it completed he did not get the same results I did.  We went over together the circuit and his was exactly like mine.  He then suggested I recheck my meters.  When I did I found that the trusty meter I had been using for years was actually reading the input power much lower than it really was.  It had always been very accurate before so something had happened to it.  I thanked Luc for helping me and apologized for getting everyone excited over another circuit that didn't pan out.  That is what peer review is about.  We check each other and verify or not the results someone claims.

Zephir, your idea that someone should be banned for wanting answers is totally ridiculous.  If you don't like the way this forum operates, there is no one forcing you to stay.  However I am pretty sure you must have another agenda.  You seem to have only one goal and that is to disrupt as many threads on this forum as you can.  I don't have any authority here or I would ban you to one thread only and not allow you to disrupt all the threads you seem intent on disrupting.

Carroll
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 02:47:58 AM
Yes it is very clear what is going on here.  You have been proven wrong by about 5 different people now with videos and scope shots and circuits that all prove current does not reverse during coil discharge.  So instead of admitting you were wrong you try to change the subject once again.  Alternating Current has absolutely nothing to do with coil discharge.  You just keep digging yourself into a deeper hole with your mistaken ideas.


@Citfa,


We know who these five disinformation agents are. The Ruhmkopff coil is a Hi-voltage transformer inverter. It generates AC current. The negative portion of the sine wave shows up as a curve beneath the zero line on your scope. This "Negative Current" is generated by the magnetic field collapse that occurs when current is interuppted to the nested primary coil. Both positive and negative current flow in the same direction out the secondary coil electrode. .
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 11, 2017, 02:56:51 AM
Allen
you need to make a video of your claim ?

or guide me thru a video
tell me what to do?

step by step
 or show your own work..






Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: citfta on April 11, 2017, 02:58:25 AM

@Citfa,


We know who these five disinformation agents are. The Ruhmkopff coil is a Hi-voltage transformer inverter. It generates AC current. The negative portion of the sine wave shows up as a curve beneath the zero line on your scope. This "Negative Current" is generated by the magnetic field collapse that occurs when current is interuppted to the nested primary coil. Both positive and negative current flow in the same direction out the secondary coil electrode. .

Prove it!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 03:08:38 AM
Prove it!


@Citfa,


Knock it off!
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Searcher1o1 on April 11, 2017, 03:09:34 AM
T. K.                              Battery is source when switch is on - coil becomes the source when switch is off
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 03:09:45 AM
@Tinsekoala,


You're up! Define a "Negative Micro-Henry".
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 11, 2017, 03:12:34 AM
Allen
your up


you need to make a video of your claim ?

or guide me thru a video
tell me what to do?

step by step
 or show your own work. to show where others have failed ?

.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 03:15:03 AM
Allen
your up


you need to make a video of your claim ?

or guide me thru a video
tell me what to do?

step by step
 or show your own work. to show where others have failed ?

.


@ramset,


I have over 40 videos on my Youtube channel as zebok3. Help yourself.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: ramset on April 11, 2017, 03:19:34 AM
Allen
Please pick one and post it here for replication ?

and what does "too soon" mean ?[your answer for where I could find this scrapyard magnet in Jersey ?

I have plenty of friends who worked on these machines ?

Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 11, 2017, 03:25:11 AM

@Citfa,


We know who these five disinformation agents are.

And yet you cannot refute anything that any of these 5 people AND MORE say, and they have proven you wrong time and time again. You have posted more demonstrably false DISinformation here than I can shake a stick at. It's practically a fulltime job keeping up with your false claims, misrepresentations and weaseling.



Quote
The Ruhmkopff coil is a Hi-voltage transformer inverter. It generates AC current. The negative portion of the sine wave shows up as a curve beneath the zero line on your scope.

 That much at least is correct.  As several people have tried to explain to you, current is a flow of charge. Going one way you can call it "negative" and going the other way you can call it "positive" if you like, even though that is incorrect. Current (conventionally) flows from the more Positive pole of a source to the more Negative pole, always. And of course this is the convention that Ben Franklin left us with before it was understood that the Electron is the carrier of the unit Negative charge and that charge in fact flows from the more Negative pole to the more Positive pole.

In fact, one could claim with some justification that ALL electric current in wires is "negative"... since it is the flow of negative charge.

Quote
Both positive and negative current flow in the same direction out the secondary coil electrode.


This is false, because current in this particular AC system reverses direction--- as has been explained to you over and over and as is stated mathematically by Faraday's Law of Induction. Look at the sign of d(B)/dt when the B field rises and then falls! Conventional current always flows from the more positive pole of the source to the more negative pole. In your strawman Ruhmkorff (not Ruhmkopff) coil it is once again easy to prove you wrong with elementary electrical components and measuring instruments.

-E=d(B)dt -- look up the meaning of d(anything)/dt in your favorite calculus textbook, and pay attention to the sign of that differential and how it manifests on a graph of "anything" vs. time.

And you may wish to study this image from the Wiki article on your Ruhmkorff coil. Note the polarities of voltage and directions of current.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/Induction_coil_waveforms.svg/200px-Induction_coil_waveforms.svg.png
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 11, 2017, 03:29:03 AM
T. K.                              Battery is source when switch is on - coil becomes the source when switch is off

That is right. Can you explain that to Synchro? Note that in your nice picture the (conventional) current continues to flow in the coil, through it and out of the BOTTOM of the coil when switched off, just as it does when the switch is on. Same direction, no reversal.

This is exactly what I demonstrate in my two videos with their associated schematics.

The schematic below, shown in my coil current direction video (1) was drawn on 30 March.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 03:34:24 AM
@Tinselkoala,


I challenged you to define a "Negative Micro-Henry" not deliver a dissertation on the Ruhmkopf coil.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 11, 2017, 03:36:36 AM
Allen
Please pick one and post it here for replication ?

and what does "too soon" mean ?[your answer for where I could find this scrapyard magnet in Jersey ?

I have plenty of friends who worked on these machines ?

I've done a little research on scrapyard magnets since we last talked.
Just google "Are scrapyard magnets AC or DC?" without the quotes, and you will find a wealth of information from makers of these magnets.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 11, 2017, 03:38:24 AM
@Tinselkoala,


I challenged yo to define a "Negative Micro-Henry" not deliver a dissertation on the Ruhmkopf coil.

Are you sure you don't mean DUMMKOPF coil? You can't even get the name of the coil right. Yo.

And note that you have YET ANOTHER refutation of your crazy current direction claim staring you right in the face. Yo.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 03:41:18 AM
Are you sure you don't mean DUMMKOPF coil? You can't even get the name of the coil right. Yo.

And note that you have YET ANOTHER refutation of your crazy current direction claim staring you right in the face. Yo.

@Tinselkoala,

You're over your head in deep shit right now and you know it.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 11, 2017, 03:45:54 AM
@Tinselkoala,

You're over your head in deep shit right now and you know it.

Wrong again!

(If you are really 70 years old, why do you persist in acting like a nine-year-old?)
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2017, 04:19:31 AM
@Tinselkoala,


Admit you can't define "Negative Micro-Henry" and I'll start teaching you. In the mean time, knock off the cheap wisecracks.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Searcher1o1 on April 11, 2017, 04:42:31 AM
Tell me what happens in this setup
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 11, 2017, 04:52:39 AM
@Tinselkoala,


Admit you can't define "Negative Micro-Henry" and I'll start teaching you. In the mean time, knock off the cheap wisecracks.

https://lmgtfy.com/

Feel free to cite any valid reference you like. But you couldn't teach a fish to swim.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 11, 2017, 04:53:26 AM
Tell me what happens in this setup

Is that you again, Chris?
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: Searcher1o1 on April 11, 2017, 05:11:18 AM
The coils are not bucking but aiding , wound on an air cored toroid.
Title: Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
Post by: TinselKoala on April 11, 2017, 05:28:44 AM