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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 163961 times)

Offline webby1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1095 on: April 21, 2017, 07:09:35 PM »
If all thread makers had that ability, there may be some that are tossed because of things that are not legit and all could get messy and not fair at all.

Mags

I think most here are rather tolerant of non-preferred behavior and if the offensive poster were set to read only for the thread in question their posts would stay until a moderator removed them.

This might make the moderator position a little harder,, they would leave some posts that others may not like,, but it is in sharing the information and ideas that should be the main goal.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline webby1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1096 on: April 21, 2017, 07:18:59 PM »
That coil is the subject of this thread....stop listening to milehigh preach about single sine functions!  ..... despite what you think, Tesla said what he said for the likes of milehigh, not you open minded folk!  For the open minded, there's a shit load you need to catch up on!  But you won't.....you will continue to listen to milehigh and others who know nothing more than the value of silence.....

MH shared his opinion,, that should be acceptable to all,, if he shares the same opinion 10 times then maybe he should be on read only until he has something new,, same thing with any poster.

This would keep the clutter down a fair amount and enable readers to follow easier.

You have shared your opinion on the classical view point,, how many times do you think it needs to be shared?

I think that there is more to what is going on than what the "laws and formulas" cover,, how do I get to a better view, a more complete view if I only read page after page of the same thing or flame wars?

I think it would be nice to be able to see many views shared openly, side by side, without all the agro.

Offline evostars

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    • my youtube channel with bifilar pancake coil info
Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1097 on: April 21, 2017, 08:12:08 PM »
Haven't followed this (my own) thread anymore. But as it is mine, here is a related post:

I made some more coils. I earlier used bifilar coils to be pulsed. I now tried single wire coils:

I connected the two single wire pancake coil in series, to my IGBT pulse driver.
The IGBT became extremely hot (much hotter than with a pulsed bifilar coil).
I guess this is because of the back emf produced, by the pulsed coils.
To avoid it, i should use a diode and a resistor in parallel with the coil, to burn the energy of the back emf.

So, I guess I will be making another bifilar pancake coil, to pulse in series.

isnt it funny, that the bifilar coil doesnt produce this troublesome back emf?

Telsa in his patent states, the back emf of a normal single wire coil, can be fixed with capacitance... but how?

I must say... these bifilar coils have their advantage (the IGBT stays cool)

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1098 on: April 21, 2017, 08:58:03 PM »
This is a quote from Erfinder that was removed while I was reading it. I was going to reply but it said post didnt exist. So I back paged and still was able to copy. I will clean it up for the one that removed it so i can reply.

"Moderation is a waste of time!  You cannot expect to grow if you censor.  If you don't want to read someone's post, ignore them.  This place gets cluster @#$%^& quickly....which is worse, twenty pages of someone spamming, or twenty pages of someone slamming you with every text book ever written, showering you in s@#$ no one needs a lesson in,  and at the end of the lecture you're still as clueless as the guy/gal spamming....


This is not the place for a productive discussion, never was, and probably never will be.  Those whose experience allows them to"represent" the status quo aren't wise enough to shut the $%^& up and let people fall on their faces!  The excuse that you are trying to save people from taking advice from the idiots is idiotic....  The excuse that you just can't stand by and allow the ignorant spread lies is a bold face lie. There are no facts.  Think and believe what you want....  IF you take advice from a fool, and you didn't know the advice came from a fool...what does that make you...not a question.


That coil is the subject of this thread....stop listening to milehigh preach about single sine functions!  I read the patent too....and despite what you think, Tesla said what he said for the likes of milehigh, not you open minded folk!  For the open minded, there's a load you need to catch up on!  But you won't.....you will continue to listen to milehigh and others who know nothing more than the value of silence....."


I am not a fan of moderation. And in ref to the same paragraph I have voiced my concerns with the crap that screw up threads, and I have seen that read only and or private threads help with that a lot. At OUR others make separate threads that deal with further discussions that keep the read only threads clean so it is easier to go through for those that are really interested in the subject. So Im not sure why the beat down there...

As for who is in the thread doing builds and tests and how they do them, well they are doing it. You are not. You are just doing this. Not a great example really. I thought we could get along but you are now just here beating on me. You do have children dont you?........ Is this how you teach them? Come on dude.

As for the coil, maybe you dont see that Im 'trying' to figure out other ways of approaching it other than what the pat says, even though one of the ideas is based on what the pat says. So what if I am way off of what you claim is the proper way to deal with it. Maybe I havnt got there yet and maybe never will. Who knows. What you claim may not even exist 'as far as we know'. How could we know as we are all screwed as you claim.

Anyway, I tried to be on a good side with you but you are just too much.

Mags

Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1099 on: April 21, 2017, 09:31:15 PM »

Moderation is a waste of time!  You cannot expect to grow if you censor.  If you don't want to read someone's post, ignore them.  This place gets clusterquickly....which is worse, twenty pages of someone spamming, or twenty pages of someone slamming you with every text book ever written, showering you in no one needs a lesson in,  and at the end of the lecture you're still as clueless as the guy/gal spamming....


This is not the place for a productive discussion, never was, and probably never will be.  Those whose experience allows them to"represent" the status quo aren't wise enough to shut the  up and let people fall on their faces!  The excuse that you are trying to save people from taking advice from the idiots is idiotic....  The excuse that you just can't stand by and allow the ignorant spread lies is a bold face lie. There are no facts.  Think and believe what you want.... 


IF you take advice from a fool, and you didn't know the advice came from a fool...what does that make you...not a question.That coil is the subject of this thread....stop listening to milehigh preach about single sine functions!  ..... despite what you think, Tesla said what he said for the likes of milehigh, not you open minded folk!  For the open minded, there's a shit load you need to catch up on!  But you won't.....you will continue to listen to milehigh and others who know nothing more than the value of silence.....

I asked you politely to leave the foul language out,and you refused to do so.
I will not ask again.

Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1099 on: April 21, 2017, 09:31:15 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1100 on: April 21, 2017, 09:32:07 PM »
Just like deja vu all over again.

I showed how when the bifilar coil self-resonates, the amount of energy stored in the LC resonator relative to the continuous resistive power burn is negligible.

I was the impetus for the frequency sweep, and the surprise so far is that we have only seen parallel resonance and not series resonance like the patent states.

Erfinder makes lots of claims but will not reveal anything.

Magluvin is going to do some future testing but will not reveal what it is all about.

And of course I ask the questions that many won't ask or they are afraid to ask because of the special flavour of political correctness around here:  What is the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil good for?  What can you do with it?  I have asked similar questions about other issues that nobody dare speak in the past.

Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1101 on: April 21, 2017, 09:36:37 PM »
Just like deja vu all over again.

I showed how when the bifilar coil self-resonates, the amount of energy stored in the LC resonator relative to the continuous resistive power burn is negligible.

I was the impetus for the frequency sweep, and the surprise so far is that we have only seen parallel resonance and not series resonance like the patent states.

Erfinder makes lots of claims but will not reveal anything.

Magluvin is going to do some future testing but will not reveal what it is all about.

And of course I ask the questions that many won't ask or they are afraid to ask because of the special flavour of political correctness around here:  What is the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil good for?  What can you do with it?  I have asked similar questions about other issues that nobody dare speak in the past.

Well i for one,have found nothing special about it-yet,other than the lower resonant frequency.

Erfinder will talk lot's,but never tell you anything other than riddles-it's the way he has always been.

Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1101 on: April 21, 2017, 09:36:37 PM »
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Offline partzman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1102 on: April 21, 2017, 10:00:05 PM »
Just like deja vu all over again.

I showed how when the bifilar coil self-resonates, the amount of energy stored in the LC resonator relative to the continuous resistive power burn is negligible.

I was the impetus for the frequency sweep, and the surprise so far is that we have only seen parallel resonance and not series resonance like the patent states.

Erfinder makes lots of claims but will not reveal anything.

Magluvin is going to do some future testing but will not reveal what it is all about.

And of course I ask the questions that many won't ask or they are afraid to ask because of the special flavour of political correctness around here:  What is the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil good for?  What can you do with it?  I have asked similar questions about other issues that nobody dare speak in the past.

Before this thread gets totally out of hand, I would like to propose at least one answer to MH's question above.  The TBC could be modeled as a symmetrical transmission line wherein each wire of the bifilar pair contains lumped inductors and the distributed capacitance between this bifilar pair are lumped capacitances connected between the lumped inductors.  I've attached a schematic to represent this. 

If this is correct, it might explain how when at a certain frequency no current appears to flow thru the TBC but yet induction can be detected with a separate sense coil in proximity.  IOW, the TBC is still inductively active when it appears not to be.  Possible applications to free energy, well, I guess that is up to us to figure out!

PM 

Offline itsu

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1103 on: April 21, 2017, 10:14:49 PM »
Hi Itsu,

I think you would need to make the pancake's self resonant frequency a little bit tunable by connecting a max 100 pF variable cap in parallel with it first and then approach the pickup coil near to it with its own variable cap. 
The detuning factor mutually affecting both coils resonances is the distance between them i.e. coupling between them. Any time you change the distance, you would have to retune both coils, this means you need coils to be tunable to both directions, up and down.   I do not think a  max 100  pF extra cap across the pancake would influence meaningfully any other properties of it other than its self resonant frequency.
The so called critical coupling would bring the most favorable response between the coils like in band pass filter cases.

Addition: I think any time there is a double peak created in the response then overcoupling is happening, this means you need to increase the distance between the two coils and retune their variable capacitors a little. 

Gyula

I made a similar TBP coil like the one i already had and which has similar specifications (1.4 Ohm each coil, 130uH each coil etc.)
With a fairly great distance between them, i can tune them (using a 45 - 450pF variable capacitor on the driven TCP coil) to resonate around
the same frequency.
When narrowing the gap between the TBP coils we see the resonance points getting split due to overcoupling, see screenshot below.

Yellow is the driven TBP coil being sweeped between 200 and 400 Khz.
Purple is the pickup TBP coil at the same resonance frequency.
Blue is the FG sweep signal.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iXfDTRQKZ0

Regards Itsu 

Offline itsu

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1104 on: April 21, 2017, 10:21:52 PM »
Haven't followed this (my own) thread anymore. But as it is mine, here is a related post:

I made some more coils. I earlier used bifilar coils to be pulsed. I now tried single wire coils:

I connected the two single wire pancake coil in series, to my IGBT pulse driver.
The IGBT became extremely hot (much hotter than with a pulsed bifilar coil).
I guess this is because of the back emf produced, by the pulsed coils.
To avoid it, i should use a diode and a resistor in parallel with the coil, to burn the energy of the back emf.

So, I guess I will be making another bifilar pancake coil, to pulse in series.

isnt it funny, that the bifilar coil doesnt produce this troublesome back emf?

Telsa in his patent states, the back emf of a normal single wire coil, can be fixed with capacitance... but how?

I must say... these bifilar coils have their advantage (the IGBT stays cool)


Hi Evo,

that would be great, but could you perhaps show some scope shots of your IGBT drain in both situations (Bifilar coil versus single wire coils)?

Thanks,  Itsu

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1104 on: April 21, 2017, 10:21:52 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1105 on: April 22, 2017, 12:01:42 AM »
Re: what is the physical meaning of "Negative Inductance"?

"The most fundamental reason is that the electric energy stored in this element is more than the magnetic energy stored. Circuit designers interpret it as a capacitor".

Here's what I gathered: Increased inductor field strength creates a reluctance to changing current, but some current that fails to pass is stored in the inductor along with the magnetic field. Now, this is referred to as "Positive Capacitance" except the frequency reactance is reversed. The amount of positive capacitance in an inductor of charged magnetic field strength is measured in 'Negative Henries" of inductance, and has to be proportional to the intensity of the flux field.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1106 on: April 22, 2017, 12:58:31 AM »
Hi Itsu,

To refine this tuning procedure, both coils would need to be paralleled with a variable capacitor
and first both of these capacitors would need to be set to a half capacitance value (half opened capacitors).
This way you could tune any of the coils either above or below of the frequency established by
the half opened capacitors, and this then could help finding the best coupling where the response
has a single peak at the common resonance frequency for both coils.  Both LC circuits mutually detune
each other as they are coupled i.e. getting closer to each other hence the need to either increase or
decrease the individual coil resonancies and this can be done by opening or closing the capacitors.

But this tuning you nicely show in the video may also be enough already to test the load of a LED or
any other load connected to the pick-up coil how it influences the small current consumption of the
main TBP at the paralel resonance - this was the original goal for tuning the pick-up coil to be resonant
with the main TBP coil.

Thanks
Gyula

I made a similar TBP coil like the one i already had and which has similar specifications (1.4 Ohm each coil,
130uH each coil etc.)
With a fairly great distance between them, i can tune them (using a 45 - 450pF variable capacitor on the
driven TCP coil) to resonate around the same frequency.
When narrowing the gap between the TBP coils we see the resonance points getting split due to
overcoupling, see screenshot below.

Yellow is the driven TBP coil being sweeped between 200 and 400 Khz.
Purple is the pickup TBP coil at the same resonance frequency.
Blue is the FG sweep signal.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iXfDTRQKZ0

Regards Itsu

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1107 on: April 22, 2017, 01:23:14 AM »
Hi Itsu,

To refine this tuning procedure, both coils would need to be paralleled with a variable capacitor
and first both of these capacitors would need to be set to a half capacitance value (half opened capacitors).
This way you could tune any of the coils either above or below of the frequency established by
the half opened capacitors, and this then could help finding the best coupling where the response
has a single peak at the common resonance frequency for both coils.  Both LC circuits mutually detune
each other as they are coupled i.e. getting closer to each other hence the need to either increase or
decrease the individual coil resonancies and this can be done by opening or closing the capacitors.

But this tuning you nicely show in the video may also be enough already to test the load of a LED or
any other load connected to the pick-up coil how it influences the small current consumption of the
main TBP at the paralel resonance - this was the original goal for tuning the pick-up coil to be resonant
with the main TBP coil.

Thanks
Gyula

I was thinking on the tuning. If the coils are wound as neatly as possible and one coil res at one freq and the other at a say higher freq, then one could try unraveling the lower freq coil just a tiny bit at a time, where that would lower both capacitance and inductance thus raising the freq to equal the other coil.  No?

Mags

Offline gyulasun

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1108 on: April 22, 2017, 01:43:06 AM »
Yes, Mags  removing a few turns can also be a solution for fine tuning.  Especially in case when someone
has no variable capacitor in his junk box.  Tuning is surely easier by variable capacitors or trimmers though.

Gyula

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1109 on: April 22, 2017, 01:53:16 AM »
Before this thread gets totally out of hand, I would like to propose at least one answer to MH's question above.  The TBC could be modeled as a symmetrical transmission line wherein each wire of the bifilar pair contains lumped inductors and the distributed capacitance between this bifilar pair are lumped capacitances connected between the lumped inductors.  I've attached a schematic to represent this. 

If this is correct, it might explain how when at a certain frequency no current appears to flow thru the TBC but yet induction can be detected with a separate sense coil in proximity.  IOW, the TBC is still inductively active when it appears not to be.  Possible applications to free energy, well, I guess that is up to us to figure out!

PM

Looking at your depiction it looks correct, where you could expand on that and show tiny caps between turns every so often on the turns.  My thoughts looking at this would seem to show that the caps have to be charged through the inductor windings, not in parallel where the input sees the cap at each end directly and the same with the inductor, where in a series lc it would seem a closer relationship where the cap has to get its charge through the inductor. I know that the coils have been showing parallel attributes of what happens with the input at resonance, but I still see the series version when looking at the schematic as do I see the one in my head. lol  Anyway...

Like if it were a single wire coil, the capacitances are all in series from end to end and do a direct connect at each end of the input, of which would emulate the parallel.  But if we look at the bifi, we have a very similar situation with all the tiny capacitances in series from end to end with the input, where the input would charge them in divisions of series caps and they would end with a fraction of the input, but that string is reconfigured in another way also, where say the first tiny cap in place at the beginning of the windings is only connected to the input on one side and the other end of the tiny cap is connected half way through the coil, thus for the larger charge to take effect it has to be electrically through the inductor to do so, thus my series impression.  So the bifi is an odd thing where the caps between each turn ARE all in series from end to the and connect to the input at either end directly just like the single wire coil AND the higher voltage developed in the caps has to go through the inductor.  So I think perhaps there are and can be dissimilarities when saying that a simple 2 component lc can do all the things a bifi can do. Maybe most have not given it any wild and crazy ideas beyond just testing and using a simple lc.

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1109 on: April 22, 2017, 01:53:16 AM »

 

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