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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 154548 times)

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1050 on: April 19, 2017, 04:41:15 PM »
@Tinselkoala,

Ponder on this:

"The unit for magnetic reluctance is inverse henry, H−1".

"Magnetic reluctance, or magnetic resistance, is a concept used in the analysis of magnetic circuits. It is analogous to resistance in an electrical circuit, but rather than dissipating electric energy it stores magnetic energy".

Ah HAH. Here we have it. Ponder upon this:  You forgot, or deliberately did not put, the "-1" as an EXPONENT. The INVERSE Henry is NOT A NEGATIVE HENRY. It is 1/H, not -H.  H-1 is the INVERSE, not a NEGATIVE.

So here we have one root of your insane "Negative Henry". There is no such thing. There is, OF COURSE, magnetic reluctance which is expressed in INVERSE HENRY, that is, 1/H.   

You simply do not understand basic math, algebra, calculus or math notation, as this post of yours ONCE AGAIN proves. I love it when your googling refutes you so soundly and obviously.






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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1051 on: April 19, 2017, 04:45:46 PM »
   Ampere = Coulomb / second

If a coulomb is a gauss, the magnetic field of the wire can be figured out in a flash.

But a coulomb is not a gauss. 

Do you think a mile per hour is a square mile?

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1052 on: April 19, 2017, 04:53:51 PM »
Well i believe you guys. It just seems odd that at resonance the initial scope shot showing unloaded regular coil as producing the highest output, yet loaded it is not the case and reacts oppositely, it seems.

Soo what if we have identically tuned tbf? I have 1 more roll of the flat 14ga. Gunna wind that up.

Mags

No, the frequency scans do not show that the unloaded regular coil produces the highest output, or at least the greatest induced voltage,  at the TBF "primary" coil's resonant frequency. Look again at the scan. In these slow scans, frequency is the x-axis, increasing from left to right, and the height of the trace is the "output" voltage. The CVR in series with the TBF primary is the Yellow trace and where it "pinches" to flatline is the frequency of its resonance, confirmed three different ways. But this frequency, as you can see, does not coincide with the maximum voltage induced in the "secondary" pickup coil. The maximum voltage induced in the pickup coil occurs at its own resonant frequency.

Yes, tuning the coils with added capacitance or by clever winding so that both have the same resonant frequency may have interesting effects. Then you have what is called "dual resonance" and this is frequently (haha) exploited by builders of solid-state Tesla coils (look up DRSSTC for some nice ones.)

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1053 on: April 19, 2017, 04:59:28 PM »

Resonance is an interesting subject, we are informed of it being a single frequency phenomena.....blah blah blah.... if we were to really align ourselves with the core message, Tesla's, we would be trying to establish this condition each time the inductance opposes change!  (this is when you are supposed to get up and dance....) This is new territory, uncharted, here who gives a shit about the single sine frequency as it relates to self induction and capacity of the system at the make, and at the break.....it does not apply, hell, capacity and self induction themselves are not what we are taught they are at these key instances!  I have been saying this forever, FUCK SINGLE FREQUENCY RESONANCE CONCEPTS! You people keep listening to the wannabe authorities and are missing the damn point!


Why is it so difficult to stick with what is right in your face....not a question.....fuck a charge....acknowledge and respect the induced and its relation to both self induction and capacity!

You all read the patent....good....you all studied the patent....great...but you are taking it at face value....not good...he gave you a capacitor, that is so fucking obvious....HELLO!!!  But not just any capacitor, this one is off the fucking chain.  Tesla was a master at misdirection, as soon as he gives you a holy shit moment, while he has your undivided attention, he immediately fucks you by instructing you to make a connection between the two plates, he sings you a lullaby, that's right, he sings your lazy asses to sleep as he elaborates on how  fascinating the connection is and how you gain proximity stress.....you take his word for it, wire the capacitor up and operate it like the inductor that it became......you do what he says because hey...it's Tesla...stupid....



As is, the coil is to be operated in an AC system.  The coil as it should have been presented would be operating in a pulsed DC system or an interrupted AC system.   Self induction, capacity and frequency are all related....till they aren't....  We are trained to limit them, they (the aforenamed) don't receive this training.... The LC you are looking for is series, but not for the reasons you are suggesting.  You do not want to neutralize the self induction ( :'(  but Tesla said....LOL.....) you want to neutralize the "negative" effects associated with self induction...lemme grab a straw or two here.......current limiting....maybe....that ties into time constants...maybe....

In the first part and that last part, are you hinting that if we pulse the coil we would see other or another freq that will show up that is not the res freq we have been looking at so far?

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1054 on: April 19, 2017, 05:01:13 PM »
No, the frequency scans do not show that the unloaded regular coil produces the highest output, or at least the greatest induced voltage,  at the TBF "primary" coil's resonant frequency. Look again at the scan. In these slow scans, frequency is the x-axis, increasing from left to right, and the height of the trace is the "output" voltage. The CVR in series with the TBF primary is the Yellow trace and where it "pinches" to flatline is the frequency of its resonance, confirmed three different ways. But this frequency, as you can see, does not coincide with the maximum voltage induced in the "secondary" pickup coil. The maximum voltage induced in the pickup coil occurs at its own resonant frequency.

Yes, tuning the coils with added capacitance or by clever winding so that both have the same resonant frequency may have interesting effects. Then you have what is called "dual resonance" and this is frequently (haha) exploited by builders of solid-state Tesla coils (look up DRSSTC for some nice ones.)

i was talking about the 'Hey MH here is some magic' scope shot of using the regular coil as a pickup and flat line yel trace(at 200mv scale)

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1054 on: April 19, 2017, 05:01:13 PM »
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Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1055 on: April 19, 2017, 05:07:17 PM »
@nelsonrochaa,

Thanks for the clarification. Consider this:


"Ørsted discovered the connection between magnetism and electric current when a magnetic field produced by a current-carrying copper bar deflected a magnetised needle during a lecture demonstration".


"In the CGS system, the unit of the H-field is the oersted and the unit of the B‑field is the gauss. In the SI system, the unit ampere per meter (A/m), which is equivalent to newton/weber, is used for the H‑field and the unit of tesla is used for the B‑field".

"H is measured in units of amperes per meter (symbol: A⋅m−1 or A/m) in the SI. B is measured in teslas (symbol: T)".


This is what you need to understand: The H field is an electrical equivalent and the B field a magnetic one.



Hi synchro1,
I just try show you that are some type of misunderstood between you and TK in relation to that theme of definition of what is  W and Wh
nothing more . what TK refers is what is agreed and write in actual conventional laws.
 
I know what is H field and a B field i have a meter do measure that values and you have right about that point .
Thanks
https://youtu.be/N3CjCNeH8rE?t=431

Nelson Rocha

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1056 on: April 19, 2017, 05:08:07 PM »
gauss tesla (T) 0.0001 weber/sq.metre tesla (T) 1 ampere-hour coulomb (C) 3,600

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1056 on: April 19, 2017, 05:08:07 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1057 on: April 19, 2017, 05:23:27 PM »
1 Coulomb= 1 Gauss

1 Watt Hour= 1 Tesla.

A negative number multiplied by a positive integer can only yield numbers of a negative value. Like the negative one for exponent to the right and above the "H".

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1058 on: April 19, 2017, 05:54:10 PM »
I was just interpreting what I think Nelson was saying. watt is a watt, and the difference between the Wh and W according to nelson they are the same just read over different periods of time. So it is like saying that the Kg is not the same as mg in a way.

No, the watt is a _rate_ and the watt-hour is a _quantity_. The watt is a rate of energy of one Joule per second passing a measurement point -- Like a mile per hour, it is a rate of "things" passing a measurement point in a unit of time. The watt-hour is a quantity, like miles is a quantity of distance, or what you read on the odometer, not the speedometer. Joules/second (watt) multiplied by time (seconds, hours whatever) gives you a quantity, a number of joules. 

They are not the same thing by any means, and this is most certainly NOT like saying the Kg is not the same as the mg. It is like saying the mile per hour is not the same thing as the mile.

Quote
I suppose you would have to average them out. Id say as long as you have at least 1 full ac cycle that the average should equate to that fraction of an hour if it were measured in 1 sec. If in 1 sec you only measured 1/4 wave of the ac cycle, that would not give an accurate depiction of power used over a longer period of time. Thus the Wh? 

Mags

Now you are getting all tangled up. Yes, to calculate or measure the number of Joules in a given time interval, you look at the power (watts, joules per second) and multiply that by the time involved (fractions of a second, days, weeks, whatever, reduced to seconds). Joules/second times seconds = joules. It's basic algebra!
The "Watt-hour"  means watts x time and results in an answer in joules. (Joules/second) x (seconds/minute) x (minutes/hour) = Joules !!  Algebra! The time units cancel and leave you with only joules, a _quantity_. Not a _rate_ like watt.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1059 on: April 19, 2017, 05:59:04 PM »
1 Coulomb= 1 Gauss

1 Watt Hour= 1 Tesla.

A negative number multiplied by a positive integer can only yield numbers of a negative value. Like the negative one for exponent to the right and above the "H".

Wrong three times in one little post.

1 coulomb is not one gauss -- that is why they have different names, BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING. One watt-hour is not 1 tesla, and

a negative exponent means INVERSE, not "negative value".  X-1 equals 1/X, not some "negative value". Basic algebra !!

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1059 on: April 19, 2017, 05:59:04 PM »
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Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1060 on: April 19, 2017, 06:03:27 PM »
No, the watt is a _rate_ and the watt-hour is a _quantity_. The watt is a rate of energy of one Joule per second passing a measurement point -- Like a mile per hour, it is a rate of "things" passing a measurement point in a unit of time. The watt-hour is a quantity, like miles is a quantity of distance, or what you read on the odometer, not the speedometer. Joules/second (watt) multiplied by time (seconds, hours whatever) gives you a quantity, a number of joules. 

They are not the same thing by any means, and this is most certainly NOT like saying the Kg is not the same as the mg. It is like saying the mile per hour is not the same thing as the mile.

Now you are getting all tangled up. Yes, to calculate or measure the number of Joules in a given time interval, you look at the power (watts, joules per second) and multiply that by the time involved (fractions of a second, days, weeks, whatever, reduced to seconds). Joules/second times seconds = joules. It's basic algebra!
The "Watt-hour"  means watts x time and results in an answer in joules. (Joules/second) x (seconds/minute) x (minutes/hour) = Joules !!  Algebra! The time units cancel and leave you with only joules, a _quantity_. Not a _rate_ like watt.

Nice explanation ;)
I think is completely and clear about this subject.
Thanks

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1061 on: April 19, 2017, 06:11:56 PM »
Nelson, I'm glad we agree on this basic algebra.

And now we are beginning to see where synchro has gone off the rails. He clearly doesn't get that the Inverse is not the Negative. X-1 is equal to 1/X, not some negative value. And the H (scalar unit of induction) of the Henry is not the same as the  H (vector quantity)of the magnetizing field strength. He apparently has confused these two very different things in his mind, because of the use of the same letter for both. But the H of the field strength is a letter chosen at random by Lord Kelvin in 1850, and has nothing to do with the assignment of the name Henry and the letter H as abbreviation for the unit of inductance.

For Synchro: When letters are Bolded like that it is not done for emphasis. It is a common way to indicate that the quantity referred to is a _vector_ not a scalar. But I don't expect you to understand the difference, since the math is obviously over your head. You should however be capable of clearly understanding that the "H" of inductance is not the same thing as the "H" of magnetic field strength. Or am I giving you too much credit?

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1062 on: April 19, 2017, 08:21:55 PM »
Wrong three times in one little post.

1 coulomb is not one gauss -- that is why they have different names, BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING. One watt-hour is not 1 tesla, and

a negative exponent means INVERSE, not "negative value".  X-1 equals 1/X, not some "negative value". Basic algebra !!


@Tinselkoala,


Look again for the equal signs!


The negative Henry is the same as the Inverse Henry. Why don't you try and calm down?

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1063 on: April 19, 2017, 08:33:31 PM »
@Tinselkoala,


 You have been unflatterinly compared to "Thamsanqa Jantjie", Barack O'bama's fake deaf sign interrurpreter. When are you gonna knock the childlike antics off and settle down and act nice?

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1064 on: April 19, 2017, 09:05:37 PM »
I see knobody will answer my earlier questions so far, so Ill pose them again...

If we have a 100t tbf coil and we apply 100v dc, how long would it take for there to be 50v between all pairs of adjacent turns in the coil and what criteria do you consider determines the given answer, if it is ever given a shot. ::)

Would one say that the 50v would be there between each turn only after the inductor has reached full current?


Mags

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1064 on: April 19, 2017, 09:05:37 PM »

 

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