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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 112343 times)

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1080 on: April 19, 2017, 04:11:13 PM »
   Ampere = Coulomb / second

If a coulomb is a gauss, the magnetic field of the wire can be figured out in a flash.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1081 on: April 19, 2017, 04:20:25 PM »
Or if that full cycle is in 0.001seconds.

Energy and power,, energy you could say is 1 cycle,, power is how many of those cycles you have per second or hour.

They may be sort of the same unit but they are not saying the exact same thing,, potential to do work and how much work is done,, I could vacuum the floors today <= potential,, I vacuumed the floors today <=work done  :)

Ok, cool.

Mags


Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1082 on: April 19, 2017, 04:25:29 PM »

No, when powering a LED load at the TBF's resonant frequency the CVR voltage trace does not quite "flatline" any more, it indicates about half a milliamp at flattest. This is with just enough amplitude of the signal input to the TBF to produce a slight glow in the LED. Of course if I go off the resonant frequency I can get a lot more power to drive the LED much more brightly from the pickup coil, especially if I go to the pickup coil's own resonant frequency, as the previous frequency scans show. The CVR trace grows then too. 

Here's a scopeshot of the "flattest" CVR line while powering a slightly glowing LED from the pickup coil. Yellow=CVR trace, with the current value shown being a little smaller than actual because the scope thinks I'm using a 10 ohm CVR but actually I'm using 9.4 ohms. Blue = across LED and pickup coil.


Trying that too shows that my led on the pickup coil does not light up when at the resonance frequency (313KHz) of the TBP coil.
When shifting the frequency to the pickup coil resonance frequency (2.5Mhz), it does light up the led.

Adding a 3nF cap parallel to the pickup coil / led lowers the resonance frequency to 313Khz which is where the TBP coil resonance frequency was
and now does light up the led brightly on 313Khz.

However, the resonance frequency of the TBP coil now has shifted to 389Khz, so no more flatlined current / resonance at 313Khz.

Its like pressing a balloon, it gives way, but expands somewhere else.

Itsu

Well i believe you guys. It just seems odd that at resonance the initial scope shot showing unloaded regular coil as producing the highest output, yet loaded it is not the case and reacts oppositely, it seems.

Soo what if we have identically tuned tbf? I have 1 more roll of the flat 14ga. Gunna wind that up.

Mags

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1083 on: April 19, 2017, 04:41:15 PM »
@Tinselkoala,

Ponder on this:

"The unit for magnetic reluctance is inverse henry, H−1".

"Magnetic reluctance, or magnetic resistance, is a concept used in the analysis of magnetic circuits. It is analogous to resistance in an electrical circuit, but rather than dissipating electric energy it stores magnetic energy".

Ah HAH. Here we have it. Ponder upon this:  You forgot, or deliberately did not put, the "-1" as an EXPONENT. The INVERSE Henry is NOT A NEGATIVE HENRY. It is 1/H, not -H.  H-1 is the INVERSE, not a NEGATIVE.

So here we have one root of your insane "Negative Henry". There is no such thing. There is, OF COURSE, magnetic reluctance which is expressed in INVERSE HENRY, that is, 1/H.   

You simply do not understand basic math, algebra, calculus or math notation, as this post of yours ONCE AGAIN proves. I love it when your googling refutes you so soundly and obviously.







Offline Erfinder

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1084 on: April 19, 2017, 04:42:49 PM »
Ok. I just had someone ask me about what I have said and I should clear that up.....

When I said there may be an instantaneous mag field when we apply input to the bifi due to neutralizing self inductance as tesla describes, I should have included the resistance that would be part of that RC time in the statement of which would kill the use of the word instantaneous.

But that is not to say that if Tesla is correct that we could not get a much faster charge to the capacitance if the resistance is very low and the self inductance delay of currents were neutralized.  The neutralization of self inductance claim is what we should be looking at as it is the claim.  Im under the strong assumption that the neutralization is in effect when we first introduce dc current to the coil, not at resonance.  If it were at resonance, then we wouldnt have resonance because the self inductance is said to be neutralized due to the capacity magnifying effect of the particular winding scheme. We need L and C for resonance. If one is not there then no ringy dingy. So when is it that the self inductance is neutralized as he claims? It must be at initial input or pulse that Tesla is thinking of.


Resonance is an interesting subject, we are informed of it being a single frequency phenomena.....blah blah blah.... if we were to really align ourselves with the core message, Tesla's, we would be trying to establish this condition each time the inductance opposes change!  (this is when you are supposed to get up and dance....) This is new territory, uncharted, here who gives a shit about the single sine frequency as it relates to self induction and capacity of the system at the make, and at the break.....it does not apply, hell, capacity and self induction themselves are not what we are taught they are at these key instances!  I have been saying this forever, FUCK SINGLE FREQUENCY RESONANCE CONCEPTS! You people keep listening to the wannabe authorities and are missing the damn point!

Thinking deeper, if the claim is true, how does the coils capacitance neutralize the self induction? Does it happen due to charges developing between turns, and those charges affect the self induction between turns? Like some guys here that say it is not flux cutting that causes induction, but it is E field, sooo, where is their beef with that idea??? ;) ;D 


Why is it so difficult to stick with what is right in your face....not a question.....fuck a charge....acknowledge and respect the induced and its relation to both self induction and capacity!


Like say if the capacitance of the bifi coil or even a regular coil of the same where we had a V meter between every turn, a meter that magically did not affect the circuit in any way, and the coils were 100t and we apply 100v, how long after the input is applied should we see max voltage between each turn pair? Is it instantaineous that every meter would read the same voltage division between each turn? Instantaneous? Or would resistance produce a delay in full charge for each segment vs the time the input was applied? And then further, if the resistance was the only opposition to each turn pair reaching max fraction of the input, and then current begins to flow as self inductance allows, would this not be a no brainer?  Lets say we only read the 2 adjacent turns just in the middle of the coil, when we apply input, will we read 1v between the 2 turns immediately? Or would one say out of the blue that the voltage between those 2 turns wont reach 1v until max current and mag field??? I dont think so.

So the charge in the capacity between turns happens before current is affected by the inductance, and to say there is no current to charge the capacity would be wrong in my opinion, and experience.  Lets say I could wind a coil as we have done with 1uf of capacitance, would current have to flow to charge that capacitance?
If not, then have we charged that capacitance for free and if we disconnect the input at the moment the charge is there, no current happened, then the thing has been energized for free? ???   Na, Im thinking current flowed till the capacity is fully charged and then the self induction stops further flow and slowly lets current reach peak as we know it from there on..

Thats my story samson simpson.  ;)   Think on that.

In a normal coil, there just may be the same effect but it is sooo tiny that if we dont look for it closely we may not notice, as the capacity in the normal coil will have only a tiny fraction of the input applied and further more, the actual capacitance is tiny. But as I said before that tiny capacitance becomes less insignificant when the potential of that same tiny capacity is at a much greater level. So the initial bump that may be there when measuring a normal coil when we first apply dc is most likely tiny as said before and very short lived. But it just might be there. Just a theory based on Teslas claim.  But Im thinking that the bifi will have a bigger more noticeable bump. Im thinking on how to look at that. Would it be a pulse train that the scope will sync to or just a one shot input and can I get my scope to react to the one shot and hold. anyway....

You all read the patent....good....you all studied the patent....great...but you are taking it at face value....not good...he gave you a capacitor, that is so fucking obvious....HELLO!!!  But not just any capacitor, this one is off the fucking chain.  Tesla was a master at misdirection, as soon as he gives you a holy shit moment, while he has your undivided attention, he immediately fucks you by instructing you to make a connection between the two plates, he sings you a lullaby, that's right, he sings your lazy asses to sleep as he elaborates on how  fascinating the connection is and how you gain proximity stress.....you take his word for it, wire the capacitor up and operate it like the inductor that it became......you do what he says because hey...it's Tesla...stupid....



I see the bifi as a series LC for the soul reason of if it were parallel then the cap would accept the input and not through the coil, but a series LC would. And a regular series LC has no way of neutralizing the self inductance. So Tesla says that the coils internal capacitance is responsible for the neutralization of the self inductance.

Mags


As is, the coil is to be operated in an AC system.  The coil as it should have been presented would be operating in a pulsed DC system or an interrupted AC system.   Self induction, capacity and frequency are all related....till they aren't....  We are trained to limit them, they (the aforenamed) don't receive this training.... The LC you are looking for is series, but not for the reasons you are suggesting.  You do not want to neutralize the self induction ( :'(  but Tesla said....LOL.....) you want to neutralize the "negative" effects associated with self induction...lemme grab a straw or two here.......current limiting....maybe....that ties into time constants...maybe....

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1084 on: April 19, 2017, 04:42:49 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1085 on: April 19, 2017, 04:45:46 PM »
   Ampere = Coulomb / second

If a coulomb is a gauss, the magnetic field of the wire can be figured out in a flash.

But a coulomb is not a gauss. 

Do you think a mile per hour is a square mile?

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1086 on: April 19, 2017, 04:53:51 PM »
Well i believe you guys. It just seems odd that at resonance the initial scope shot showing unloaded regular coil as producing the highest output, yet loaded it is not the case and reacts oppositely, it seems.

Soo what if we have identically tuned tbf? I have 1 more roll of the flat 14ga. Gunna wind that up.

Mags

No, the frequency scans do not show that the unloaded regular coil produces the highest output, or at least the greatest induced voltage,  at the TBF "primary" coil's resonant frequency. Look again at the scan. In these slow scans, frequency is the x-axis, increasing from left to right, and the height of the trace is the "output" voltage. The CVR in series with the TBF primary is the Yellow trace and where it "pinches" to flatline is the frequency of its resonance, confirmed three different ways. But this frequency, as you can see, does not coincide with the maximum voltage induced in the "secondary" pickup coil. The maximum voltage induced in the pickup coil occurs at its own resonant frequency.

Yes, tuning the coils with added capacitance or by clever winding so that both have the same resonant frequency may have interesting effects. Then you have what is called "dual resonance" and this is frequently (haha) exploited by builders of solid-state Tesla coils (look up DRSSTC for some nice ones.)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1086 on: April 19, 2017, 04:53:51 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1087 on: April 19, 2017, 04:59:28 PM »

Resonance is an interesting subject, we are informed of it being a single frequency phenomena.....blah blah blah.... if we were to really align ourselves with the core message, Tesla's, we would be trying to establish this condition each time the inductance opposes change!  (this is when you are supposed to get up and dance....) This is new territory, uncharted, here who gives a shit about the single sine frequency as it relates to self induction and capacity of the system at the make, and at the break.....it does not apply, hell, capacity and self induction themselves are not what we are taught they are at these key instances!  I have been saying this forever, FUCK SINGLE FREQUENCY RESONANCE CONCEPTS! You people keep listening to the wannabe authorities and are missing the damn point!


Why is it so difficult to stick with what is right in your face....not a question.....fuck a charge....acknowledge and respect the induced and its relation to both self induction and capacity!

You all read the patent....good....you all studied the patent....great...but you are taking it at face value....not good...he gave you a capacitor, that is so fucking obvious....HELLO!!!  But not just any capacitor, this one is off the fucking chain.  Tesla was a master at misdirection, as soon as he gives you a holy shit moment, while he has your undivided attention, he immediately fucks you by instructing you to make a connection between the two plates, he sings you a lullaby, that's right, he sings your lazy asses to sleep as he elaborates on how  fascinating the connection is and how you gain proximity stress.....you take his word for it, wire the capacitor up and operate it like the inductor that it became......you do what he says because hey...it's Tesla...stupid....



As is, the coil is to be operated in an AC system.  The coil as it should have been presented would be operating in a pulsed DC system or an interrupted AC system.   Self induction, capacity and frequency are all related....till they aren't....  We are trained to limit them, they (the aforenamed) don't receive this training.... The LC you are looking for is series, but not for the reasons you are suggesting.  You do not want to neutralize the self induction ( :'(  but Tesla said....LOL.....) you want to neutralize the "negative" effects associated with self induction...lemme grab a straw or two here.......current limiting....maybe....that ties into time constants...maybe....

In the first part and that last part, are you hinting that if we pulse the coil we would see other or another freq that will show up that is not the res freq we have been looking at so far?

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1088 on: April 19, 2017, 05:01:13 PM »
No, the frequency scans do not show that the unloaded regular coil produces the highest output, or at least the greatest induced voltage,  at the TBF "primary" coil's resonant frequency. Look again at the scan. In these slow scans, frequency is the x-axis, increasing from left to right, and the height of the trace is the "output" voltage. The CVR in series with the TBF primary is the Yellow trace and where it "pinches" to flatline is the frequency of its resonance, confirmed three different ways. But this frequency, as you can see, does not coincide with the maximum voltage induced in the "secondary" pickup coil. The maximum voltage induced in the pickup coil occurs at its own resonant frequency.

Yes, tuning the coils with added capacitance or by clever winding so that both have the same resonant frequency may have interesting effects. Then you have what is called "dual resonance" and this is frequently (haha) exploited by builders of solid-state Tesla coils (look up DRSSTC for some nice ones.)

i was talking about the 'Hey MH here is some magic' scope shot of using the regular coil as a pickup and flat line yel trace(at 200mv scale)

Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1089 on: April 19, 2017, 05:07:17 PM »
@nelsonrochaa,

Thanks for the clarification. Consider this:


"Ørsted discovered the connection between magnetism and electric current when a magnetic field produced by a current-carrying copper bar deflected a magnetised needle during a lecture demonstration".


"In the CGS system, the unit of the H-field is the oersted and the unit of the B‑field is the gauss. In the SI system, the unit ampere per meter (A/m), which is equivalent to newton/weber, is used for the H‑field and the unit of tesla is used for the B‑field".

"H is measured in units of amperes per meter (symbol: A⋅m−1 or A/m) in the SI. B is measured in teslas (symbol: T)".


This is what you need to understand: The H field is an electrical equivalent and the B field a magnetic one.



Hi synchro1,
I just try show you that are some type of misunderstood between you and TK in relation to that theme of definition of what is  W and Wh
nothing more . what TK refers is what is agreed and write in actual conventional laws.
 
I know what is H field and a B field i have a meter do measure that values and you have right about that point .
Thanks
https://youtu.be/N3CjCNeH8rE?t=431

Nelson Rocha

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1089 on: April 19, 2017, 05:07:17 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1090 on: April 19, 2017, 05:08:07 PM »
gauss tesla (T) 0.0001 weber/sq.metre tesla (T) 1 ampere-hour coulomb (C) 3,600

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1091 on: April 19, 2017, 05:23:27 PM »
1 Coulomb= 1 Gauss

1 Watt Hour= 1 Tesla.

A negative number multiplied by a positive integer can only yield numbers of a negative value. Like the negative one for exponent to the right and above the "H".


Offline Erfinder

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1092 on: April 19, 2017, 05:46:59 PM »
In the first part and that last part, are you hinting that if we pulse the coil we would see other or another freq that will show up that is not the res freq we have been looking at so far?

Mags


In the first part I am telling you to be mindful of opposition to change at switch transitions!  The present direction of this discussion does not account for the opposition which matters.  If you pulse the coil, EXPECT several frequencies to manifest, all or most of which should have a harmonic relation to the fundamental.  You want to learn about real capacity, and interactions between real capacitors, learn to identify them when they present themselves to you!  What you want is an avalanche in the dielectric sphere of influence, all sources crashing onto the fundamental.  You may not get it, but I am hopeful that you are at the very least, trying..... I watch you people generate damped waves, I laugh and cry at your efforts.   


In the last part, I am telling you that we do not want to neutralize self induction, despite what we are told by Tesla!  It, self induction, is the mechanism through which we get what we want!!!  You may not recognize what that is, but I am hopeful that you will eventually.  We want to neutralize the negative effects associated with self induction.....specifically, current limiting, and time constants as they apply to inductors, resistance is a choice, and frequency is only important when you're suffering from single sine syndrome.....


Regards

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1093 on: April 19, 2017, 05:54:10 PM »
I was just interpreting what I think Nelson was saying. watt is a watt, and the difference between the Wh and W according to nelson they are the same just read over different periods of time. So it is like saying that the Kg is not the same as mg in a way.

No, the watt is a _rate_ and the watt-hour is a _quantity_. The watt is a rate of energy of one Joule per second passing a measurement point -- Like a mile per hour, it is a rate of "things" passing a measurement point in a unit of time. The watt-hour is a quantity, like miles is a quantity of distance, or what you read on the odometer, not the speedometer. Joules/second (watt) multiplied by time (seconds, hours whatever) gives you a quantity, a number of joules. 

They are not the same thing by any means, and this is most certainly NOT like saying the Kg is not the same as the mg. It is like saying the mile per hour is not the same thing as the mile.

Quote
I suppose you would have to average them out. Id say as long as you have at least 1 full ac cycle that the average should equate to that fraction of an hour if it were measured in 1 sec. If in 1 sec you only measured 1/4 wave of the ac cycle, that would not give an accurate depiction of power used over a longer period of time. Thus the Wh? 

Mags

Now you are getting all tangled up. Yes, to calculate or measure the number of Joules in a given time interval, you look at the power (watts, joules per second) and multiply that by the time involved (fractions of a second, days, weeks, whatever, reduced to seconds). Joules/second times seconds = joules. It's basic algebra!
The "Watt-hour"  means watts x time and results in an answer in joules. (Joules/second) x (seconds/minute) x (minutes/hour) = Joules !!  Algebra! The time units cancel and leave you with only joules, a _quantity_. Not a _rate_ like watt.


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1094 on: April 19, 2017, 05:59:04 PM »
1 Coulomb= 1 Gauss

1 Watt Hour= 1 Tesla.

A negative number multiplied by a positive integer can only yield numbers of a negative value. Like the negative one for exponent to the right and above the "H".

Wrong three times in one little post.

1 coulomb is not one gauss -- that is why they have different names, BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING. One watt-hour is not 1 tesla, and

a negative exponent means INVERSE, not "negative value".  X-1 equals 1/X, not some "negative value". Basic algebra !!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1094 on: April 19, 2017, 05:59:04 PM »

 

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